Seaton Sound SubMersive1 [Text View] - Page 12

sean_w_smith

09-30-09, 03:21 PM

Thanks Mark. I am going to treat the room as best as possible, carpet the floor with some sort of sound absorbing material as an underlay. The walls and ceiling will be treated with something as well (I have a company designing and building the room, I just have no time to do it myself) and of course I will be using bass traps where I can.

Any advise on 1 or 2 things that I should do without fail before I start the build?

Edit: Can't get that program to open. I will try again on my PC at home.

Japan Dave,

please realize that especially with a solid concrete room that your room is going to have WAY WAY WAY to much reverb. This is going to very negatively effect various aspects of the sound quality like imaging.... your going to need to a lot of absorption to tame that thing down.... Carpetting would be a great first step but a solid concrete room is far from ideal until its treated correctly....

Sean

craig john

09-30-09, 04:29 PM

Japan Dave,

please realize that especially with a solid concrete room that your room is going to have WAY WAY WAY to much reverb. This is going to very negatively effect various aspects of the sound quality like imaging.... your going to need to a lot of absorption to tame that thing down.... Carpetting would be a great first step but a solid concrete room is far from ideal until its treated correctly....

Sean
I agree, but the point I was making in Post # 2750, is that it is very difficult to "treat" frequencies below ~ 80 Hz with absorption. Above that point, thick bass traps in the corners can help a lot, but below that, it takes very serious "mass" to absorb those deep frequencies. The better bet is EQ. Something like Audyssey which EQ's in both the frequency and time domains would be the most beneficial.

Craig

otk

09-30-09, 04:39 PM

I agree, but the point I was making in Post # 2750, is that it is very difficult to "treat" frequencies below ~ 80 Hz with absorption. Above that point, thick bass traps in the corners can help a lot, but below that, it takes very serious "mass" to absorb those deep frequencies. The better bet is EQ. Something like Audyssey which EQ's in both the frequency and time domains would be the most beneficial.

Craig

have you ever seen this thing ?

http://www.bagend.com/bagend/ETrap.htm

craig john

09-30-09, 05:06 PM

have you ever seen this thing ?

http://www.bagend.com/bagend/ETrap.htm

No, I never saw that before. Looks interesting... kind of the same concept as noise canceling headphones. I wonder how well it works, and whether it works for more than just one location in the room. I also wonder what it does for nulls. They only show it lowering peaks. If it can raise nulls, it would certainly be more effective than EQ.

Thanks for pointing it out. :)

Craig

JapanDave

09-30-09, 07:33 PM

Japan Dave,

please realize that especially with a solid concrete room that your room is going to have WAY WAY WAY to much reverb. This is going to very negatively effect various aspects of the sound quality like imaging.... your going to need to a lot of absorption to tame that thing down.... Carpetting would be a great first step but a solid concrete room is far from ideal until its treated correctly....

Sean
Absolutely. :) I am now at the point of having the room designed(proffesional room designer) and I am trying to get some basic info so that I can understand what he is doing for sound quality. America is still more advanced in regards to HT so any additional info is going to be a plus. Granted , most house over here are built way more solidly than the US due to Earthquake building standards which may put professionals over here at an advantage when working with solid rooms, but like I said any info is going to help.

I don't want 3 sets of catalysts, 4 sets of sparks and a submersive to sound not as good as what they should due to terrible room setup , so I am going to do everything in my power to get the room set up correctly.:)

Dbuudo07

09-30-09, 08:09 PM

JapanDave,
Are you leaving the walls as concrete, or are you drywalling the room? I'm planning on having four concrete walls, so this is good for me too. I was planning on placing some kind of insulation between the concrete and the drywall that would help a little with the ringing. Does anyone know if this would this work?

craig john

09-30-09, 08:33 PM

If you use studs and drywall, and you don't "attach" the studs to the concrete, they should flex a little, which will allow for some LF absorption. How much and at what frequency will be determined by the type of studs, the thickness and number of layers of drywall, and the length and height of the wall.

The best place to ask these kinds of questions is in the Acoustical Treatments Master Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=255432
Dennis Erskine is the moderator, and he is a professional acoustician and HT designer. He can help you for sure. There are several other pro's in that thread also.

Craig

JapanDave

09-30-09, 08:39 PM

sean_w_smith

09-30-09, 08:40 PM

I agree, but the point I was making in Post # 2750, is that it is very difficult to "treat" frequencies below ~ 80 Hz with absorption. Above that point, thick bass traps in the corners can help a lot, but below that, it takes very serious "mass" to absorb those deep frequencies. The better bet is EQ. Something like Audyssey which EQ's in both the frequency and time domains would be the most beneficial.

Craig

Absolutely agree and I love my BFD's and my Audessy.... I guess I was trying to point out beyond bass you need to something to deaden the room or all the best gear in the world will sound really poor....

Sean

Dbuudo07

09-30-09, 08:51 PM

Thanks Craig. I'm going to spend a few days reading that thread.

Sounds good JapanDave. I'm going to do as much of designing I can, and then I'm going to take that to someone reputable and have them evaluate it and make any appropriate changes.

John H

10-01-09, 02:18 AM

MIkeDuke

10-01-09, 07:20 AM

My dual SubMersives arrived today. I placed them up front. One on each side of my center channel speaker. I connected them to an SVS AS-EQ1 and did a quick set up.

I have them on a dedicated 20 A circuit. It feeds a Panamax MAX® 4400-20A (http://www.panamax.com/Products/A-V-Components/M4400-20A.aspx) surge protector and then splits into two outlets in the front of the room.

My room is 21' 7" L x 13' 10" W x 8' 6" H (2537 cu ft sealed)

The predicted after graph shows them rolling off around 16 Hz. I don't have any way of measuring them. Should I expect them to roll off a little lower in my room?

John

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/SumMersives006.jpg
First, nice room. Second, unless you have some really funky room acoustics going on, I would guess that you should see a lower roll of then 16Hz. If you go here
http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm
You can download some test tones yourself. Then you can burn them to a cd. At that point all you need is a radio shack SPL meter. Just run the disk and mark down the numbers you get. Do not set your level too high. Maybe set your volume at 100db at 65Hz. Make sure you go all the way down to 10Hz. Then on this forum there is a place that has the SPL correction figures for the SPL meter. The SPL meter is not that accurate very low. Just add those numbers to what you have and that is it. That AVSforum thread is a sticky so it should be easy to find.

JimP

10-01-09, 07:35 AM

John,

The corrected part of the pdf is not an actual measurement.

If you're capable in REW, please post a after calibration graph.

John H

10-01-09, 07:43 AM

First, nice room. Second, unless you have some really funky room acoustics going on, I would guess that you should see a lower roll of then 16Hz. If you go here
http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm
You can download some test tones yourself. Then you can burn them to a cd. At that point all you need is a radio shack SPL meter. Just run the disk and mark down the numbers you get. Do not set your level too high. Maybe set your volume at 100db at 65Hz. Make sure you go all the way down to 10Hz. Then on this forum there is a place that has the SPL correction figures for the SPL meter. The SPL meter is not that accurate very low. Just add those numbers to what you have and that is it. That AVSforum thread is a sticky so it should be easy to find.

Thanks for the compliment on the room. I actually do have a disc of sine waves down to 3 hz in 1 Hz increments. I do have an RS SPL meter. I was actaully referring to some software program for measuring.
The SubMersives just came in late yesterday. I'll see what I can do. Also move them around slightly.

John

mike2060

10-01-09, 07:44 AM

Also I doubt that the Audessy mic is even accurate very low.

John H

10-01-09, 07:49 AM

John,

The corrected part of the pdf is not an actual measurement.

If you're capable in REW, please post a after calibration graph.

I'm not setup with any software measuring.

Also I doubt that the Audessy mic is even accurate very low.

When I used the AS-EQ1 on a HSU-QuadDrive system the "predicted" after graph was flat out to 10Hz.

John

MIkeDuke

10-01-09, 07:50 AM

Thanks for the compliment on the room. I actually do have a disc of sine waves down to 3 hz in 1 Hz increments. I do have an RS SPL meter. I was actaully referring to some software program for measuring.
The SubMersives just came in late yesterday. I'll see what I can do. Also move them around slightly.

John

OK. Sorry, I misunderstood. I think a lot of people use this:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
You need to register to download it. There may be others but I don't know what they are. I had Mark do my setup.

John H

10-01-09, 07:53 AM

OK. Sorry, I misunderstood. I think a lot of people use this:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
You need to register to download it. There may be others but I don't know what they are. I had Mark do my setup.

I may have to fly him out! :cool:

John

JimP

10-01-09, 07:57 AM

Also I doubt that the Audessy mic is even accurate very low.

Why do you say that?

mike2060

10-01-09, 09:04 AM

Why do you say that?

I have a Galaxy 140 SPL meter and it's only accurate to 32hz. It cost $150 so I doubt an Audessy mic is going to be accurate at less than 15hz. But it doesn't matter much anyways because his graph isn't a normal frequency response graph. If he wants to measure his response at 10hz he will need to use his RS and the correction tables.

JimP

10-01-09, 09:37 AM

Mike,

Sorry, but that's not really a good enough reason.

What you could do is send the mic off to get a calibration file to input into REW. I think you can get down to 10 or 15hz that way and know that you're being pretty accurate.

Then if you want to make a comparison, you'll have data to back it up.

mike2060

10-01-09, 09:58 AM

MusicFirst

10-01-09, 11:30 AM

It will be the most satisfying HT purchase of your life. The detail that is lost in bass is sometimes comes to life with the SubM. I am still getting proper positioning down right now but I am pretty happy with the response where it is. Somewhat limited on placement options. It did become obvious today while taking some measurements, that I need an EQ. Got about 15db of swing from 40 to 60 Hz, pretty flat everywhere else. The test tones I was using started at 16 Hz so I don't know how much lower it plays but I was only about 2 db down at 16 Hz. Anyway, I hope you enjoy yours.
Yeah, I have actually owned over 15 or so subs in the past 10 years, :eek: so I am looking forward to the last one for awhile! :)

I have all the equipment I need to test it down to about 5Hz, so it will be interesting to see how it does in my room. I am pretty lucky, as I have limited placement options as well, but the spot where I have my dual PC13-Ultra's, I need very little EQ to get +/- 1.5dB between 15Hz and 120Hz (with a little help from the SMS-1)! :)

Good luck with getting your SubMersive dialed in!

MIkeDuke

10-01-09, 12:14 PM

Yeah, I have actually owned over 15 or so subs in the past 10 years, :eek: so I am looking forward to the last one for awhile! :)

I have all the equipment I need to test it down to about 5Hz, so it will be interesting to see how it does in my room. I am pretty lucky, as I have limited placement options as well, but the spot where I have my dual PC13-Ultra's, I need very little EQ to get +/- 1.5dB between 15Hz and 120Hz (with a little help from the SMS-1)! :)

Good luck with getting your SubMersive dialed in!

I have had three subs in the last 10 years. Including this one:p. Are you replacing the PC13's or simply adding the SubMersive to the mix.

kirbybreezy

10-01-09, 03:12 PM

As LFE is non-directional, putting the SubMersive on its face with the amp sticking up should not adversely affect the sound quality correct?

I recently had to move my projector screen back a few inches, and the motorized screen travel in the full down position now bunches up on the top of the SubMersive which I have placed behind it.

The screen is placed slightly in front of a bay window. The only way I can have freedom of placement near the screen wall is to place the SubMersive on its front. Right now on its proper "feet" it is locked into one position dead center behind the screen as the shape of the bay window allows.

As long as I redo Audyssey etc. it should be fine I hope.

MusicFirst

10-01-09, 04:18 PM

I have had three subs in the last 10 years. Including this one:p. Are you replacing the PC13's or simply adding the SubMersive to the mix.
I am replacing the PC13's. I love the power they output in my roughly 2400cu room, but I want a sub that will dig a little deeper, but also fill in the upper bass a little better. I need to cross my mains over at about 120hz, and while the PC13's do an adequate job in that area, from what I can tell, the SubMersive will do a better job. I have also been partial to sealed subs anyway, so I just could not resist. I used to own a JL Audio f113 before the PC13's, but at the time my future wife wanted me to have two subs for aesthetic purposes to balance out the room, and adding another f113 was too damn expensive, so I tried the PC13's. I would get two SubMersives, but money is a little tight right now.

MIkeDuke

10-01-09, 07:44 PM

MIkeDuke

10-01-09, 07:47 PM

I am replacing the PC13's. I love the power they output in my roughly 2400cu room, but I want a sub that will dig a little deeper, but also fill in the upper bass a little better. I need to cross my mains over at about 120hz, and while the PC13's do an adequate job in that area, from what I can tell, the SubMersive will do a better job. I have also been partial to sealed subs anyway, so I just could not resist. I used to own a JL Audio f113 before the PC13's, but at the time my future wife wanted me to have two subs for aesthetic purposes to balance out the room, and adding another f113 was too damn expensive, so I tried the PC13's. I would get two SubMersives, but money is a little tight right now.

OK. That's cool. If I were to guess, you should be fine with a SubMersive in a 2400cu room. You can always get the second to please the wife, I never thought I would say that :p, when you are in the position money wise.

jchong

10-01-09, 08:07 PM

Hi, I'm trying to find out the max spl the Submersive is capable of across it's freq range. Has Mark or any other forummer posted that info anywhere before? I don't recall, so I thought I'd ask.

sean_w_smith

10-01-09, 10:19 PM

Hi, I'm trying to find out the max spl the Submersive is capable of across it's freq range. Has Mark or any other forummer posted that info anywhere before? I don't recall, so I thought I'd ask.

no

thebland

10-02-09, 07:42 AM

Well, I chatted with Mark on the phone the other day, sent some room pix, and let's see what happens. My room and needs are a bit unusual. Stay tuned...

MIkeDuke

10-02-09, 08:38 AM

Well, I chatted with Mark on the phone the other day, sent some room pix, and let's see what happens. My room and needs are a bit unusual. Stay tuned...

Can't wait to see what the mad scientist comes up for your situation:D.

MusicFirst

10-02-09, 11:26 AM

OK. That's cool. If I were to guess, you should be fine with a SubMersive in a 2400cu room. You can always get the second to please the wife, I never thought I would say that :p, when you are in the position money wise.
Yeah, go figure my wife actually likes the look of the cylinder subs too compared to the box versions. She really didn't care for the look of the f113. My guess is she is not going to care for the SubMersive either, luckily I have a "Man Cave" now in our new house and it will be hidden behind the TV! :cool:

MIkeDuke

10-02-09, 11:33 AM

Yeah, go figure my wife actually likes the look of the cylinder subs too compared to the box versions. She really didn't care for the look of the f113. My guess is she is not going to care for the SubMersive either, luckily I have a "Man Cave" now in our new house and it will be hidden behind the TV! :cool:

You are not using a tube TV, like I am right? If you are, there will be issues Otherwise you should be cool.

MusicFirst

10-02-09, 12:27 PM

You are not using a tube TV, like I am right? If you are, there will be issues Otherwise you should be cool.
I am using a Sony KDS-60A3000 rear projection 1080P HDTV (now discontinued). The one with the picture quality many compared to the Pioneer Plasmas. :)

Bluedevilfan

10-02-09, 12:50 PM

Well, I chatted with Mark on the phone the other day, sent some room pix, and let's see what happens. My room and needs are a bit unusual. Stay tuned...

Jeff,

So your saying your going to need 4 T.F. XLs, and 4 Submersive XLs(Not Released Yet) to add to your AWESOME Theater! :) Your "way over do" HT meet will sound OUTSTANDING I'm sure!!

Stereodude

10-02-09, 09:34 PM

Meets at Jeff's are mythical events. They're just like Unicorns and Santa Claus... They don't exist. :p

Dbuudo07

10-05-09, 04:13 PM

No new owners or impressions of the Submersive?

tvckmiller

10-05-09, 05:35 PM

No new owners or impressions of the Submersive?

Go back and look thru a few pages, I posted mine in fair detail. I have had mine about 2 weeks and it is the best audio investment I have ever made. My Arcam AVR 300 being a close second. This thing hit with authority when it needs to and is nearly silent the rest of the time. All it does is add weight to what needs it. It is BY FAR the most accurate, hardest hitting sub I have experienced. It has a good bit more suddeness (is this a word) and tactile feel than my previous M&K MX350 and a nice DIY 12" sub TOGETHER. Master and Commander will make you feel as if the cannons are strapped to your a**

If you are debating on this sub, just do it. You will not be dissatisfied. These dudes with 2 or more Submersives must be real bass heads or just need to even out response. I have alot of need for an eq and mine sounds great as it is.

tvckmiller

10-05-09, 05:45 PM

I know there is a seperate thread for this but I have a different twist on my question. My Submersive sounds awesome now, can't imagine it sounding cleaner. I do however, have some pretty big peaks in my room response, not to many nulls, just peaks.

My question is this: What stand alone eq do you recommend. I have no audessy or any other kind of room compensation. I have an Arcam AVR300 and like I said, they sound great together. I want just one eq solution that I can see and hear my results with. Also, if I get an eq, is there a particular "house curve" that you Submersive owners generally like or is it just eq it flat and let it go?

audioguy

10-05-09, 06:11 PM

I want just one eq solution that I can see and hear my results with. Also, if I get an eq, is there a particular "house curve" that you Submersive owners generally like or is it just eq it flat and let it go?

The "see and hear" part pretty much limits your choices to three (I think). The Velodyne SMS-1, Audyssey Pro (which means you would need the stand alone Audyssey product since you said your AVR does not support Audyssey) or the SVS Product developed by Audyssey. If you are willing to be a bit more flexible, there are lots of other choices.

House curves are a matter of choice. When Mark set up mine (I have Audyssey Pro), we have a very light elevation below about 30 or so (if I remember correctly)

mike2060

10-05-09, 06:29 PM

ronnt88

10-05-09, 07:49 PM

hi.. new owner of a Submersive here. I've been too busy rewatching all my BDs to post comments here:P But I dun think I've anything new to add about the submersive except that it was a blind buy for me (all the way from south east asia, no chance for auditions) but it was well worth it. Everything good I read about the submersive is indeed true & proven when i installed it :D

If i were to express it in the least amount of words possible it would be : Powerful, Accurate, Tight, Fast, Zero Boominess. It blends in perfectly with my system and for the 1st time in 12 mths since I started this home theater hobby I feel complete.... (exhales in content) ;)

The only downside is that my submersive delivery was a little delayed but now that it's here, it was well worth the wait. To those who are still contemplating, DON'T! Just get it NOW!! :D

Fatawan

10-05-09, 09:12 PM

tvckmiller

10-06-09, 01:21 AM

Anti-Mode 8033 is the EQ that is tailor made for cutting down peaks. Thats what it does, and you can add a preset boost down low if you want. Use REW to measure your results.

Thanks for your comments, actually all of you who replied. I have looked into REW but I do not have a laptop, my desktop is located a good 30 feet from the listening area, and to be frank, I don't have much of an understanding of it.

The only thing that I was not sure of was the Ant-Mode's ability to be viewed on screen. If it is the best way to accomplish a nice frequency response, I may have to give it a try. I could always just re-measure after installing the Anti-Mode. If I could gain a real understanding of REW that would be an option as well. Is the SMS-1 a tried and proven system? If it as good as the Anti-Mode AND it has the immediate return of on screen viewing, then it may be an option as well. Cost is a factor though, especially after shelling out what it took to get the Submersive.

millerwill

10-06-09, 10:15 AM

Thanks for your comments, actually all of you who replied. I have looked into REW but I do not have a laptop, my desktop is located a good 30 feet from the listening area, and to be frank, I don't have much of an understanding of it.

The only thing that I was not sure of was the Ant-Mode's ability to be viewed on screen. If it is the best way to accomplish a nice frequency response, I may have to give it a try. I could always just re-measure after installing the Anti-Mode. If I could gain a real understanding of REW that would be an option as well. Is the SMS-1 a tried and proven system? If it as good as the Anti-Mode AND it has the immediate return of on screen viewing, then it may be an option as well. Cost is a factor though, especially after shelling out what it took to get the Submersive.

I use the SMS-1 for the reasons you note, i.e., that you can see instantly the effect of the settings you make. And I find it to give me just the right amount of tweakability for my tastes. It's MUCH simpler to use that REW and a BFD (though does cost more, but there are some good prices at Amazon, etc.). The AntiMode is very similar to Audyssey: you get what it gives you, without really knowing what that is.

a1bert

10-06-09, 01:55 PM

I use the SMS-1 for the reasons you note, i.e., that you can see instantly the effect of the settings you make

With SMS-1, a computer, experience and patience you can get as good results as with Anti-mode.

But IMHO you give much too much credit to the SMS-1 display. Using it you get just the broad strokes. It is too smoothed to show nulls and you do not see the time-domain effects which contribute at least as much or more to the way the bass sounds than just the frequency response. It is quite easy to make the response worse by looking at the SMS-1 display as your only guide.

millerwill

10-06-09, 02:11 PM

With SMS-1, a computer, experience and patience you can get as good results as with Anti-mode.

But IMHO you give much too much credit to the SMS-1 display. Using it you get just the broad strokes. It is too smoothed to show nulls and you do not see the time-domain effects which contribute at least as much or more to the way the bass sounds than just the frequency response. It is quite easy to make the response worse by looking at the SMS-1 display as your only guide.

Some very relevant comments. I do run Audyssey (MultEQ XT) from my Onk 805 AVR first--so that I do get timing info into the mix--and then just use the SMS-1 to look at the results and do some 'fine tuning' of the FR. Yes, the SMS use 1/3 octave smoothing and will miss narrow peaks/valleys, but I've always read that it's not productive to try to deal with very narrow peaks/valleys, for it's the broad ones that really matter (but I'm no expert on all this!).

millerwill

10-07-09, 10:58 PM

tommygee

10-08-09, 04:32 AM

millerwill

10-08-09, 11:21 AM

What did you have before? A rythmik, no? How would you directly compare?

A had a SVS PB10 before, so even I am able to hear how much better the SubM is. (The PB10 is very good in its price range, though, which is ~ 1/4 that of the SubM.)

craig john

10-08-09, 12:04 PM

I've been having great fun tonight playing with my SubMersive, trying to decide what x-over works best with my Ascendacoustics Sierra-1's L/C/R. My test has been the first scenes of WOTW. (And it is bone-rattling with the SubM!) Room is smallish, ~ 2000 cu ft.

I've been comparing two setups and am having a hard time telling which one is better; so I would be interested to hear what others of you do.

For each setup I have first run Audyseey MultEQ XT (in my Onk 805 AVR), then touch up with a SMS-1 to get a very flat FR; and I also use an SPL to level match the speakers (incl the SubM).
Interesting... this is exactly how I set up my Submersives: MultEQ XT, -> SMS-1 -> SPL meter. Works well, huh?

Setup #1 is conventional: the Sierra's as set to 'small' with an 80 Hz x-over. Setup #2 has the Sierra's set to 'Full Band' (which is what Audyssey originally selects) with Double Bass turned 'on'; as I understand it, this sends the bass from the L and R speakers also to the Sub. As I said, both of these configurations are incredibly dynamic. I would be interested to hear if any of you have compared such setups and your impressions.
If they sound the same, or very similar, I suggest you use the 80 Hz crossover. With the crossover engaged and re-routing the bass to the sub, you will reduce the stress on your Sierra's and increase headroom in your amps. Your Sierra's are great speakers, but they're not designed for full range use. Also, they are not especially sensitive @ 87 dB/1 watt/1 meter. Your receiver is pretty powerful, but even 130 watts can get used up pretty quickly. For example, a doubling of 65 watts to go to 130 watts only provides 3 dB more output. Also, the deep bass takes the most power to reproduce, and if the speakers can't output it anyway, that is just wasted power.

Your Sierra's are rated down to 44 Hz, so if you want to send them bass down to that level, try a crossover of 40 Hz. This should effectively do the same thing in your system as "Double Bass", but will siphon off the deepest bass to the sub and provide *some* amplifier headroom.

FWIW, I cross my Atlantic Technology 8200e's, (THX Ultra2), over at 100 Hz and I don't used Double Bass. I really like the sound of the Submersives and they do well up to 100 Hz, (above that, and I can start to localize them). My mains seem stronger on the material above 100 Hz by not demanding that they reproduce below 100 Hz. I am absolutely ecstatic about the sound of my system since I added the Submersives!

Have fun playing around with the setup, and please report back what you decide. :)

Craig

millerwill

10-08-09, 12:30 PM

Interesting... this is exactly how I set up my Submersives: MultEQ XT, -> SMS-1 -> SPL meter. Works well, huh?

Craig

Craig, Thanks very much for the very helpful comments above. And I should certainly cite you as the reference for suggesting this procedure that I'm using!

The suggestion of using the 80 Hz x-over is very persuasive. I'll play with WOTW (and 'Master & Commander', etc.) some more in the next few days to confirm that it sounds as good as alternatives, and then probably stay with it for the reasons you lay out. (I also use an Eagles cd to test that the bass is solid, but not overwhelming, for music.)

craig john

10-08-09, 01:12 PM

Craig, Thanks very much for the very helpful comments above. And I should certainly cite you as the reference for suggesting this procedure that I'm using!
It's interesting that over in the Audyssey thread, Chris K. suggests that you use any other EQ *before* MultEQ XT. However, IME, running the SMS-1 before MULTEQ XT results in the MultEQ trying to "undo" the EQ applied by the SMS-1. Running it afterwards allows me to "clean up" the few little nuances that MultEQ doesn't get. I have a virtually flat line on the SMS-1 from it's low point of 15 Hz to well past the 100 Hz crossover.

Craig

millerwill

10-08-09, 01:37 PM

It's interesting that over in the Audyssey thread, Chris K. suggests that you use any other EQ *before* MultEQ XT. However, IME, running the SMS-1 before MULTEQ XT results in the MultEQ trying to "undo" the EQ applied by the SMS-1. Running it afterwards allows me to "clean up" the few little nuances that MultEQ doesn't get. I have a virtually flat line on the SMS-1 from it's low point of 15 Hz to well past the 100 Hz crossover.

Craig

I've tried it 'Audyssey's way' too and agree with you, i.e., that MultEQ XT still leaves some things to be smoothed out (whether my ears can discern this, of course, is another matter!). However even doing it your way, which is what I do, I still have some structure above 80 Hz that the SMS-1 can't deal with. By muting the SMS it is easy to see that this is coming from structure in the FR of the other speakers (i.e., not the sub), which the SMS-1 doesn't touch, and which Audyssey was not able to completely smooth out. This is probably due to the fairly small size of my room (14x17x8.3).

craig john

10-08-09, 01:50 PM

I've tried it 'Audyssey's way' too and agree with you, i.e., that MultEQ XT still leaves some things to be smoothed out (whether my ears can discern this, of course, is another matter!). However even doing it your way, which is what I do, I still have some structure above 80 Hz that the SMS-1 can't deal with. By muting the SMS it is easy to see that this is coming from structure in the FR of the other speakers (i.e., not the sub), which the SMS-1 doesn't touch, and which Audyssey was not able to completely smooth out. This is probably due to the fairly small size of my room (14x17x8.3).
Is your room treated at all? I have bass traps in the front corners and the ceiling. I also have a "Reflection Free Zone" most of the way around my speakers. (I have a gas fireplace on the left side that can't be "treated"). My room starts out with pretty good response even before Audyssey and the SMS-1. The Submersive's very flat response doesn't get corrupted too badly by my room. :) OTOH, it doesn't get much reinforcement from it either.

Craig

millerwill

10-08-09, 02:10 PM

Is your room treated at all? I have bass traps in the front corners and the ceiling. I also have a "Reflection Free Zone" most of the way around my speakers. (I have a gas fireplace on the left side that can't be "treated"). My room starts out with pretty good response even before Audyssey and the SMS-1. The Submersive's very flat response doesn't get corrupted too badly by my room. :) OTOH, it doesn't get much reinforcement from it either.

Craig

No, no room treatments. It's not a pre-designed HT but rather the former 'teenager den' that I inherited when our daughters (now in their late 30's) left home. But it's not bad: good rug, couch, bookcases, some tapestries on a wall, black out drapes over ~50% of wall surfaces, and black material on side walls and ceiling about 6-7 ft out from the screen wall. However the L and R Sierra's are only ~1 ft from the side walls, so this probably generates some of their non-ideal room behavior.

craig john

10-08-09, 11:25 PM

No, no room treatments. It's not a pre-designed HT but rather the former 'teenager den' that I inherited when our daughters (now in their late 30's) left home. But it's not bad: good rug, couch, bookcases, some tapestries on a wall, black out drapes over ~50% of wall surfaces, and black material on side walls and ceiling about 6-7 ft out from the screen wall. However the L and R Sierra's are only ~1 ft from the side walls, so this probably generates some of their non-ideal room behavior.
If your speakers are 1 ft. from the side walls, those side walls are perfect candidates for some sound absorption. The *early* reflections off the side walls wil combine with the initial sound waves and cause comb filtering:
http://www.asc-hifi.com/acoustic_basics.htm
and SBIR, (Speaker Boundary Interface Response):
http://www.gikacoustics.com/education_sbir.html

Sound absorption panels can reduce these problems considerably. You can make panels pretty cheaply. I made mine for about $50 per panel. They made a huge difference in imaging. If you want to know how to make the panels, PM me and I'll send you the plans. Or, if you want a turnkey option, GIK makes some spouse friendly panels:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html

For Bass Traps, GIK also makes some very spouse-friendly traps:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_elite_pillar.html
http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_elite_table.html

IMO, *anything* you can do to improve your room acoustics prior to any electronic EQ will make the EQ's job easier, and make the end result better.

Sorry we've gotten somewhat off-topic here, but I feel really passionate about this subject of room acoustics, (please see my signature :) ). I've had acoustic treatments in my room since I first read about Live End / Dead End Listening Rooms in Audio magazine in the mid-80's. My treatments have evolved as my system has evolved, but the basic principals of room acoustics have remained the same.

To get back on-topic, let me just say that the Submersives really seem to take to my well-treated room. They don't mind that they get little reinforcement from my room. They just seem to have limitless output capability. Certainly Reference Level isn't a problem for them, (and that's as far as I've pushed them, and the rest of my system.) Nonetheless, full RL is *very* loud, and I don't feel any need to go beyond it. The fact that the Submersives can do full RL, (115 dB from the subs), in a room with little room gain speaks to their output capabilities. The fact that they can do it to 15 Hz, (and possibly lower, that I can't measure), speaks to their slow VLF rolloff. :)

Craig

sb1

10-08-09, 11:30 PM

If your speakers are 1 ft. from the side walls, those side walls are perfect candidates for some sound absorption. The *early* reflections off the side walls wil combine with the initial sound waves and cause comb filtering:
http://www.asc-hifi.com/acoustic_basics.htm
and SBIR, (Speaker Boundary Interface Response):
http://www.gikacoustics.com/education_sbir.html

Sound absorption panels can reduce these problems considerably. You can make panels pretty cheaply. I made mine for about $50 per panel. They made a huge difference in imaging. If you want to know how to make the panels, PM me and I'll send you the plans. Or, if you want a turnkey option, GIK makes some spouse friendly panels:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html

For Bass Traps, GIK also makes some very spouse-friendly traps:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_elite_pillar.html
http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_elite_table.html

IMO, *anything* you can do to improve your room acoustics prior to any electronic EQ will make the EQ's job easier, and make the end result better.

Sorry we've gotten somewhat off-topic here, but I feel really passionate about this subject of room acoustics, (please see my signature :) ). I've had acoustic treatments in my room since I first read about Live End / Dead End Listening Rooms in Audio magazine in the mid-80's. My treatments have evolved as my system has evolved, but the basic principals of room acoustics have remained the same.

To get back on-topic, let me just say that the Submersives really seem to take to my well-treated room. They don't mind that they get little reinforcement from my room. They just seem to have limitless output capability. Certainly Reference Level isn't a problem for them, (and that's as far as I've pushed them, and the rest of my system.) Nonetheless, full RL is *very* loud, and I don't feel any need to go beyond it. The fact that the Submersives can do full RL, (115 dB from the subs), in a room with little room gain speaks to their output capabilities. The fact that they can do it to 15 Hz, (and possibly lower, that I can't measure), speaks to their slow VLF rolloff. :)

Craig
Thanks for posting those links. I've been thinking about getting something like that, now I know where.

Also, are you using any type of equalization on your subs (other than room treatment)?

craig john

10-08-09, 11:38 PM

Thanks for posting those links. I've been thinking about getting something like that, now I know where.

Also, are you using any type of equalization on your subs (other than room treatment)?
Please read the preceding posts. Both millerwill and I are using a combination of Audyssey MultEQ Xt and the Velodyne SMS-1 to EQ our systems.

Nonetheless, IMO, it is most important to treat your room. This will provide the biggest gains. Then, and only then, use EQ to "fine tune" the results.

Craig

sb1

10-08-09, 11:47 PM

Please read the preceding posts. Both millerwill and I are using a combination of Audyssey MultEQ Xt and the Velodyne SMS-1 to EQ our systems.

Nonetheless, IMO, it is most important to treat your room. This will provide the biggest gains. Then, and only then, use EQ to "fine tune" the results.

CraigThanks. I have to be careful with room treatments for the WAF, since our theater is our living room. She doesn't mind the screen, equipment, and all the speakers, but anything more noticeable may be pushing it.

audioguy

10-08-09, 11:53 PM

Still a bit off topic but I found these guys (http://www.acoustimac.com/) who sell ready made and nicely done panels for $50 or you can make your own and they will sell you the pieces. Most of their work is commercial but they do sell to consumers.

audioguy

10-08-09, 11:54 PM

Thanks. I have to be careful with room treatments for the WAF, since our theater is our living room. She doesn't mind the screen, equipment, and all the speakers, but anything more noticeable may be pushing it.

There is another acoustic panel company that will put artwork on your panels. Maybe she will go along with that approach!

craig john

10-08-09, 11:54 PM

Thanks. I have to be careful with room treatments for the WAF, since our theater is our living room. She doesn't mind the screen, equipment, and all the speakers, but anything more noticeable may be pushing it.
Although my wife helped to design the acoustic treatments in our room, and the subsequent concealment of them, I can certainly understand the need to make acoustic treatments acceptable to the SO. That's why I posted links to some spouse-friendly treatments. Hopefully some of them can work out for you, and others.

Craig

millerwill

10-08-09, 11:55 PM

If your speakers are 1 ft. from the side walls, those side walls are perfect candidates for some sound absorption. The *early* reflections off the side walls wil combine with the initial sound waves and cause comb filtering:
http://www.asc-hifi.com/acoustic_basics.htm
and SBIR, (Speaker Boundary Interface Response):
http://www.gikacoustics.com/education_sbir.html

Sound absorption panels can reduce these problems considerably. You can make panels pretty cheaply. I made mine for about $50 per panel. They made a huge difference in imaging. If you want to know how to make the panels, PM me and I'll send you the plans. Or, if you want a turnkey option, GIK makes some spouse friendly panels:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html

For Bass Traps, GIK also makes some very spouse-friendly traps:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_elite_pillar.html
http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_elite_table.html

IMO, *anything* you can do to improve your room acoustics prior to any electronic EQ will make the EQ's job easier, and make the end result better.

Sorry we've gotten somewhat off-topic here, but I feel really passionate about this subject of room acoustics, (please see my signature :) ). I've had acoustic treatments in my room since I first read about Live End / Dead End Listening Rooms in Audio magazine in the mid-80's. My treatments have evolved as my system has evolved, but the basic principals of room acoustics have remained the same.

To get back on-topic, let me just say that the Submersives really seem to take to my well-treated room. They don't mind that they get little reinforcement from my room. They just seem to have limitless output capability. Certainly Reference Level isn't a problem for them, (and that's as far as I've pushed them, and the rest of my system.) Nonetheless, full RL is *very* loud, and I don't feel any need to go beyond it. The fact that the Submersives can do full RL, (115 dB from the subs), in a room with little room gain speaks to their output capabilities. The fact that they can do it to 15 Hz, (and possibly lower, that I can't measure), speaks to their slow VLF rolloff. :)

Craig

Thanks a lot for the info, Craig. I'm still rather new to the HT hobby (glad I didn't get hooked on it until close to retirement, for it can be fully engrossing!), so I haven't gotten into acoustic room treatment yet; maybe it will be the next thing. I did do something for video--putting up black material on my ceiling and side walls, out about 6-7 ft from the screen wall; and it made an ENORMOUS improvement to the PQ with my projector (RS20). Perhaps the room treatments you suggest will do the same for audio.

craig john

10-08-09, 11:57 PM

ZivkoF

10-09-09, 05:24 AM

I posted a response already on my forum, but to confirm for those reading here, if you have an XLR connection available, it is preferred. XLR connections are in fact the only connector on the SubMersive. The SubMersive ships with an adapter to allow quick connection or for connection where RCA cables are already installed and are the easier or only option. There is nothing wrong with using an RCA connection to the adapter, it is just preferred to use an XLR cable if available.

I use the Premium Canare cables sold under the TecNec house brand of Markertek.com. If you threaded the cable through some woven-jacket tech-flex, many audio companies would charge 4-10 times what Markertek does ($27.50 for a 25' cable).

Mark tnx for XLR cable information :)

I have found even lower price for Canare Star Quad microphone cable L-4E6S with NEUTRIK gold XLR connectors and they are shipping international with US Postal Service.

6 Feet - 9.99
10 feet - 14.99
15 Feet - 19.99
25 Feet - 24.99
50 Feet - 44.99

http://www.redtipcables.com/home.php

mike2060

10-09-09, 07:36 AM

Thanks. I have to be careful with room treatments for the WAF, since our theater is our living room. She doesn't mind the screen, equipment, and all the speakers, but anything more noticeable may be pushing it.

Not sure what color the living room is but GIK has off-white panels that can actually blend in very well in a living room.

bsoko2

10-09-09, 12:18 PM

Thanks. I have to be careful with room treatments for the WAF, since our theater is our living room. She doesn't mind the screen, equipment, and all the speakers, but anything more noticeable may be pushing it.

Same issue for me! The HT setup is for me as it really doesn't matter to her, all she wants to do is view and hear the story. Anything else is a waste on her. I suspect that most women are this way when it comes to HT.

Bill

JimP

10-09-09, 12:30 PM

KX250F

10-09-09, 03:33 PM

I just had to post this picture. Three Submersives just got delivered and are setting in the back of my truck at work. It looks like it's going to be a long weekend.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG00006-20091009-1522.jpg

Pollonious

10-09-09, 03:37 PM

Well I have now joined the Seaton club too, I was a bit concerned at how my SubMersive might turn up after its voyage across the Atlantic but it was wonderfully packed and is proving a very worthwhile investment in my present modest setup.
I had svs pb12plus2 previously, 2 of them in fact although I was mostly using only one, I loved those subs but I'm loving my SubMersive more already.
I hope to build a whole new theatre around this in a couple of years, it sounds so sharp, authorative, musicaly delightful too. Finish is first rate and looks gorgeous in black oak (in a kind of short fat way).
Thankyou Mark for advice along the way, it took quite a few hours reading all these threads too! Some wonderful setups here I see, I hope to match up with some Catalysts eventually when I retire in a wee while, I'll keep you updated :)

millerwill

10-09-09, 03:57 PM

Question for anybody: if one did have Catalysts L/C/R with a SubMersive, would you x-over them at 80 Hz?

Mark Seaton

10-09-09, 04:21 PM

Question for anybody: if one did have Catalysts L/C/R with a SubMersive, would you x-over them at 80 Hz?

The Catalysts and SubMersive afford you the flexibility of crossing over in the 40-100Hz range. What is actually chosen will depend on how the speakers and subwoofers interact with the room. I've had cases where the identical speaker in the center vs. the left & right have very different low end profiles, especially if there is a big dip in the response below 100Hz due to placement. If acoustics or other system limitations don't dictate otherwise, I'd cross Catalysts at 50-80Hz, and would probably keep it to 60Hz in very large rooms or for those who really like to push things. Again, it is highly dependent on the interaction with the room and the placement options available.

sb1

10-09-09, 04:26 PM

If she hasn't noticed all that, then it may not be as delicate a subject as you might think.Good catch, Jim. Maybe "noticeable" was a bad choice of words. How about I say "anything else that looks like home theater equipment"?:)

otk

10-09-09, 04:29 PM

millerwill

10-09-09, 05:16 PM

The Catalysts and SubMersive afford you the flexibility of crossing over in the 40-100Hz range. What is actually chosen will depend on how the speakers and subwoofers interact with the room. I've had cases where the identical speaker in the center vs. the left & right have very different low end profiles, especially if there is a big dip in the response below 100Hz due to placement. If acoustics or other system limitations don't dictate otherwise, I'd cross Catalysts at 50-80Hz, and would probably keep it to 60Hz in very large rooms or for those who really like to push things. Again, it is highly dependent on the interaction with the room and the placement options available.

Thanks for the feedback, Mark. I would interpret your remarks to imply that with less capable L/C/R speakers (e.g., like the Ascendacoustic Sierra's that I have--excellent but must less powerful) you would probably suggest something ~ 80 Hz, again depending on the room.

larry7995

10-09-09, 08:12 PM

3 - nice, that's what I want 1 by each main speaker and one behind my lazboy hmmm that would also pay off my pickup...

audioguy

10-09-09, 08:48 PM

I don't know how big your room is but you are in for a major T R E A T !

thecutter

10-10-09, 12:23 AM

Why 3 submersives?

sb1

10-10-09, 03:49 AM

Why 3 submersives?
Because he doesn't have room for four.

KX250F

10-10-09, 07:30 AM

I don't know how big your room is but you are in for a major T R E A T !

The room is a dedicated room with a small stage up front and a riser against the back wall. The room dimensions are 14.5ft wide x 22ft length x 8ft ceilings.

Why 3 submersives?

I went with three for a couple of reasons. First off my Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre/pro has three sub outputs, and secondly I want to try a sub in the rear to see if it will help smooth things out.

I have to work today so I don't know if I'll get them up and running this weekend or not. I have alot of work to do before I just set them in there. I need to make some longer cables and a little construction work as well.

Mike_WI

10-10-09, 07:55 AM

The room is a dedicated room with a small stage up front and a riser against the back wall. The room dimensions are 14.5ft wide x 22ft length x 8ft ceilings.

I went with three for a couple of reasons. First off my Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre/pro has three sub outputs, and secondly I want to try a sub in the rear to see if it will help smooth things out.

I have to work today so I don't know if I'll get them up and running this weekend or not. I have alot of work to do before I just set them in there. I need to make some longer cables and a little construction work as well.
Are the Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre/pro has three sub outputs discrete outputs or just "splitters"?
If they are splitting the same output, isn't the number of outputs really arbitrary?

Mike

KX250F

10-10-09, 10:47 AM

Are the Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre/pro has three sub outputs discrete outputs or just "splitters"?
If they are splitting the same output, isn't the number of outputs really arbitrary?

Mike

From my understanding they are all independent from one another. They will all use the same crossover setting that you set, but each sub is set individually for distance (Phase) and level.

duwdu

10-10-09, 05:37 PM

sb1

10-10-09, 09:41 PM

I'm trying to get caught up on thiis thread...lots to read.

Looking at what you guys have to say about these subs convinced me to Send Mark a PM about one.

sb1

10-11-09, 05:17 PM

Still having trouble making a for sure decision on this. I'm currently running a Velodyne HGS18, and have been looking at the PB13, Dual Epik Dragons, or a Submersive. My current sub certainly goes low and loud cleanly, but I just keep wondering if I'm missing out on something with a 10 year old sub.

Anyone care to share their thoughts on this? Perhaps some of you have heard the HGS and have an opinion. I think I saw at least one or two of you who have heard the DD18, which is what succeeded the HGS18. Thanks.

audioguy

10-11-09, 08:48 PM

sb1

10-11-09, 08:56 PM

I've had dual DD-18's and the SubMerisive destroys them. After the DD-18's I had SVS PC-13 Ultra's (dual) and the SubMersive destroyed them. Impact and extension. Don't even bother to look at any other subs. If one SubMersive doesn't do it, just keep buying them (number 3 and 4 will arrive tomorrow :D:D:D)Thanks for the response. Are you comparing one SubM to the DD-18's, or dual SubM's? I've been looking around at the room, and my particular room will not lend itself well to duals, since they can only be located symmetrically up front. If they don't sound good there, I'm in trouble. One good sub is my safest bet.

bsoko2

10-11-09, 09:01 PM

Subs don't have to be placed only in the front. One in front & one in back or one each on the side walls.

Bill

audioguy

10-11-09, 09:07 PM

sb1

10-11-09, 10:00 PM

One SubMersive will bea two of the other two subs (DD-18 and SVS). But two does make it easier to get more uniform response. And as the previous poster said, you can put them in non-symmetrical parts of the room -- unless that (a) your spouse objects or (b) you are too anally retentive to live with non-symmetry {which happens to be MY issue}Actually, the way our room is setup, there's simply no other spots to put another sub but the two empty spaces up front between the center and two fronts. No practical spots, anyway.

craig john

10-11-09, 10:18 PM

Actually, the way our room is setup, there's simply no other spots to put another sub but the two empty spaces up front between the center and two fronts. No practical spots, anyway.
I have my dual Submersives placed up front, on either side of the CC. It works extremely well.

Craig

John H

10-11-09, 10:46 PM

I have my dual Submersives placed up front, on either side of the CC. It works extremely well.

Craig

That's were mine are placed as well. I just moved my ULS-15 QuadDrive System into the rear of the room last night. 2 along each side wall.

John

craig john

10-11-09, 10:53 PM

That's were mine are placed as well. I just moved my ULS-15 QuadDrive System into the rear of the room last night. 2 along each side wall.

John
Are you using all six subs together? :eek: That's 8 15" drivers in sealed boxes! Holy Schlitz! How do you integrate and optimize that system?

Craig

bsoko2

10-11-09, 10:55 PM

That's were mine are placed as well. I just moved my ULS-15 QuadDrive System into the rear of the room last night. 2 along each side wall.

John

What happened to the Conquests?

Bill

sb1

10-11-09, 11:04 PM

I have my dual Submersives placed up front, on either side of the CC. It works extremely well.

Craig
I was more or less asking him if a single Submersive would compare to dual Velodyne 18" (I only have one). I can't swing dual SubM's at the moment. Perhaps later, but not right now.:)

millerwill

10-11-09, 11:08 PM

My O my, I'm beginning to feel underpowered with only 1 SubM. But my room is only 17 L x 14 W, so I don't think I can fit another in. And then I'm not sure my ears could take another one also.

craig john

10-11-09, 11:46 PM

My O my, I'm beginning to feel underpowered with only 1 SubM. But my room is only 17 L x 14 W, so I don't think I can fit another in. And then I'm not sure my ears could take another one also.
Your ears won't hear "louder" bass with dual subs, (except at the very loudest levels). If the system is calibrated properly, (and clearly you know how to do that, :) ), at any given level up to the system maximum, it will sound the same in terms of SPL. The advantage of duals is: 1) each sub plays at 3 to 6 dB lower in level, (so at lower distortion with more headroom), and; 2) more even frequency response across more listening positions.

Craig

John H

10-11-09, 11:48 PM

Are you using all six subs together? :eek: That's 8 15" drivers in sealed boxes! Holy Schlitz! How do you integrate and optimize that system?

Craig

I am using an AS-EQ1. The SubMersives are equidistant from the LP and each pair of colocated ULS-15's are the same distance from the LP as well. I have the SubMersives connected to Sub output A and the ULS-15's to output B.

What happened to the Conquests?

Bill

There in the bedroom at the moment.

John

craig john

10-11-09, 11:58 PM

I am using an AS-EQ1. The SubMersives are equidistant from the LP and each pair of colocated ULS-15's are the same distance from the LP as well. I have the SubMersives connected to Sub output A and the ULS-15's to output B.
That should sound incredible. :eek:

There in the bedroom at the moment.
That's one way to make the bedroom "rock"! :D

sb1

10-12-09, 12:36 AM

millerwill

10-12-09, 12:38 AM

Your ears won't hear "louder" bass with dual subs, (except at the very loudest levels). If the system is calibrated properly, (and clearly you know how to do that, :) ), at any given level up to the system maximum, it will sound the same in terms of SPL. The advantage of duals is: 1) each sub plays at 3 to 6 dB lower in level, (so at lower distortion with more headroom), and; 2) more even frequency response across more listening positions.

Craig

Even with just the 1 SubM, using Audyssey XT + the SMS-1 as you do, I get an extremely even FR. (I did move the SubM around within its range of possibilities to optimize the FR before any of the eq procedures.) So I'm not sure that I'm lacking much wrt an even FR, at least over the area of my wife and my seating positions.

MIkeDuke

10-12-09, 07:36 AM

Man....I'm so damn tired of reading about subwoofers. I guess I should just order a SubM and hope I like it. I don't really think I'm missing anything with my Velodyne, but I haven't really listened to another sub to any extent since I bought this one back in '98. It has plenty of bass, so what is it that makes the SubM better? If mine hits hard and low, and I'm not really turning the volume knob but two notches from zero, what will a Submersive do that will impress me? I just feel like I'm missing something, even though I have no real complaints about my current sub.

Basically, if I have plenty of volume and quite decent extension in my 4300 cf room, what will I get from a Submersive? Any further help or opinions is greatly appreciated (100% movies, no music).
I am guessing that the Velo you have is probably an HGS18? The submersive would probably play louder, cleaner and lower in your room. In my small room I had no complaints either about my old sub. But when I got the SubMersive I realized what I was missing. And it was more then just output. It sounded cleaner then my other sub and went way lower. It adds "weight" to the soundtrack and effects. I also suggest you go onto Marks site.
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/?forum=86963
On there you will find plenty of threads with people talking about the sub and what it does in their rooms. Some people have singles in rooms bigger then yours and they are quite pleased with the results. I know I am a happy camper. BTW my room is 1000cf. But like I said, many people have rooms that are much bigger and are quite satisfied with the results.
P.S Check your PM :)

sb1

10-12-09, 09:29 AM

^ Thanks Mike.

audioguy

10-14-09, 12:43 AM

I haven't EQ'd them yet or even re-run Audyssey Pro but I did add in my most recent two SubMersives (for a total of four). The first two were in diagonal parts of the room so I put the next two in the opposite parts.

I wasn't sure what to expect since I was so incredibly pleased with the first two. The only thing I have done (besides stay up very late last night --- very) is to play very short cuts from some of the standards (Dark Night, U571, Iron Man, etc).

I'm not sure how to describe it but four seem to load/pressurize the room differently than two so adds to the envelopment experience. When I played just the two, I was able to challenge them with a couple of spots on KungFu Panda (played at or above reference). Last night, no such challenge. So I have lots and lots of head room. The only down side is that in those scenes where there is "rumbly bass", it moved so much air that my screen was shaking and made the image less than perfect. It only last a very brief moment and was well worth it.

I love this product. Eight 15 inch drivers in a 3800cf room is just stupid. But fun :D:D:D

Being real honest, the real "bang for the buck" was the first two. Bass like I had never heard. But would I do it again. In a heart beat !!

Great product

ronnt88

10-14-09, 01:11 AM

audioguy... u r truly audionuts :P

i only have one but now wished i have 2 :D

JimP

10-14-09, 01:21 AM

audioguy,

I thought I heard something last night. It must have been you....200 miles away. lol

WilsonL

10-14-09, 03:15 AM

sounds liked audioguy is having lots of fun, but nothing beats the real stuff, as a gentle earthquake just rocked my house approx. an hr ago.

wondered if multiple submersives will do that to you.

mike2060

10-14-09, 07:41 AM

audioguy

10-14-09, 12:22 PM

sounds liked audioguy is having lots of fun, but nothing beats the real stuff, as a gentle earthquake just rocked my house approx. an hr ago.

wondered if multiple submersives will do that to you.

I used to live in Southern California for 18 years so I know about earthquakes. I could have 20 SubMersives and it would not compare (although it could certainly destroy my basement !!)

MusicFirst

10-14-09, 05:19 PM

Just got FedEx notification, my SubMersive should be here on 10-19! :)

fugueness

10-16-09, 02:47 AM

sounds liked audioguy is having lots of fun, but nothing beats the real stuff, as a gentle earthquake just rocked my house approx. an hr ago.

wondered if multiple submersives will do that to you.

It sure can. 4 Submersives (on a suspended floor) occasionally rocks my house pretty good :eek: :D

JapanDave

10-16-09, 02:56 AM

It sure can. 4 Submersives (on a suspended floor) occasionally rocks my house pretty good :eek: :D

Hey, did you end up getting those catalysts for surrounds?

I still have not asked Mark to ship yet and my order keeps growing, it is now 3 catalysts, 4 sparks and 2 SubMersives for my 2500cf concrete bunker.:D

MIkeDuke

10-16-09, 08:06 AM

Hey, did you end up getting those catalysts for surrounds?

I still have not asked Mark to ship yet and my order keeps growing, it is now 3 catalysts, 4 sparks and 2 SubMersives for my 2500cf concrete bunker.:D

Nice. That should be a pretty slamin setup when you get everything connected.

fugueness

10-16-09, 03:24 PM

Hey, did you end up getting those catalysts for surrounds?

Mark's working on it... :D

JapanDave

10-16-09, 11:03 PM

Mark's working on it... :D
Very Nice!:D

jamestech

10-18-09, 10:41 AM

jamestech

10-18-09, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by fugueness
It sure can. 4 Submersives (on a suspended floor) occasionally rocks my house pretty good

I still have not asked Mark to ship yet and my order keeps growing, it is now 3 catalysts, 4 sparks and 2 SubMersives for my 2500cf concrete bunker.:D
>>>>>>>>
I am jealous of your guys' bank accounts. I am not trying to pry or anything, if you think it is then don't answer but I am curious what you guys do for a living?

Its not just you guys either, there is a good handful of people here with a whole lot of money wrapped up in Seaton Sound products, like $10,000 plus bucks. :eek:

Oh well, us poor folks always got the lottery drawings to look forward to. :p

jamestech

10-18-09, 10:54 AM

I got a question; How does a single SubMersive hold up to a JTR Captivator ?

Mike_WI

10-18-09, 11:25 AM

>>>>>>>>
I am jealous of your guys' bank accounts. I am not trying to pry or anything, if you think it is then don't answer but I am curious what you guys do for a living?

Its not just you guys either, there is a good handful of people here with a whole lot of money wrapped up in Seaton Sound products, like $10,000 plus bucks. :eek:

Oh well, us poor folks always got the lottery drawings to look forward to. :p
Many people buy boats, motorcycles, pools, cottages.
It's just a matter of where people put their money.

Mike

mike2060

10-18-09, 11:28 AM

Well I think Mark's products will last people for many many years so I don't think $15k over 10 years is bad.

jamestech

10-18-09, 01:05 PM

Well I think Mark's products will last people for many many years so I don't think $15k over 10 years is bad.

Good point. My problem is no piece of HT gear is kept more than 5 years or so because of my upgrade addiction. :)

This is just a ballpark because I don't remember exactly, in the last 12 years ive changed out my.......

Speakers 4 times
Subwoofers 6 times
Receiver 8 times
Display 4 times
Various source devices 20 times
Cables 2 times

jamestech

10-18-09, 01:18 PM

^^^ But then again, ive never spent more than $2K or so for a single piece. I suppose if I bought a 5.0 Catalyst package at twenty plus thousand bucks things would change. :-)

Stereodude

10-18-09, 01:23 PM

I suppose if I bought a 5.0 Catalyst package at twenty plus thousand bucks things would change. :-)Yeah, that change would be to your marital status. :p

jamestech

10-18-09, 06:24 PM

yeah, that change would be to your marital status. :p

lmao!

jamestech

10-18-09, 06:29 PM

Many people buy boats, motorcycles, pools, cottages.
It's just a matter of where people put their money.

Mike

Don't forget hookers and drugs.:p

mike2060

10-18-09, 07:15 PM

Don't forget hookers and blow.:p

fyp

mike2060

10-18-09, 07:18 PM

Good point. My problem is no piece of HT gear is kept more than 5 years or so because of my upgrade addiction. :)

This is just a ballpark because I don't remember exactly, in the last 12 years ive changed out my.......

Speakers 4 times
Subwoofers 6 times
Receiver 8 times
Display 4 times
Various source devices 20 times
Cables 2 times

I've never heard the Catalysts but they may actually stop you from needing anything "better" so you can focus your upgraditis on say, new projectors :-p (oh and you don't have to worry about amplification because Catalysts are active so no more needing to upgrade that).

jamestech

10-18-09, 07:22 PM

fyp

fyp ? .....F^ck Yeah Pal ?

Stereodude

10-18-09, 09:11 PM

fyp ? .....F^ck Yeah Pal ?Probably, Fix'd Your Post

mike2060

10-18-09, 09:34 PM

Fixed your post :)

JapanDave

10-18-09, 11:28 PM

Many people buy boats, motorcycles, pools, cottages.
It's just a matter of where people put their money.

Mike

Ha,Ha... My home theater is going to be my least expensive hobbie!;) I have ornamental fish that are worth in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.:eek:

larry7995

10-18-09, 11:46 PM

better make sure your cat is declawed then

JapanDave

10-19-09, 12:06 AM

better make sure your cat is declawed then
lol!!! But it is cat that will need to watch itself. :D

jamestech

10-19-09, 11:27 AM

Fixed your post :)

Ah, I missed the repair ; 'blow' :D

jamestech

10-19-09, 11:31 AM

Ha,Ha... My home theater is going to be my least expensive hobbie!;) I have ornamental fish that are worth in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.:eek:

You must be joking, but I don't get the joke , help me out here. :o

jamestech

10-19-09, 12:13 PM

I got a question; How does a single SubMersive hold up to a JTR Captivator ?

bump^^

Mark Seaton

10-19-09, 03:05 PM

I got a question; How does a single SubMersive hold up to a JTR Captivator ?

The SubMersive and Captivator are very different animals so far as strengths. Being that the Captivator is passive, the performance is dependent on the amplification being used, as well as how the system is set up. To really push the passive Captivator, you want a high pass for the amplifier down near 13-15Hz. Assuming 800-1000W of amplifier power, the Captivator may has potential for a bit more output in the 15-20Hz range and the bandpass design is audibly very clean at low frequencies. It won't have as much attack and kick as a SubMersive does covering the typical bass range while also being significantly larger. If you have smaller speakers with less midbass capability, the SubMersive is more flexible and powerful in the range where the sub and main speakers cross over. The Captivator in quantities of 2-4 would be especially useful in larger, open rooms where less LF gain is observed. It won't be too long before my Terraform XL will be out which takes the concept lower, louder and with more detail work with large flared ports and integrated amplification making it a ready to go solution, at an accordingly higher price point.

jamestech

10-19-09, 10:39 PM

Thanks Mark. So for music duty the SubMersive does not have a lot of competition , would'nt you agree? ;)
Both the Captivator and your upcoming Terraform XL are best suited for home theater(movies) duty, no?
(btw is the Captivator your design? )

MY home theater does nothing but music 60-70% of the time so I think the SubMersive is perfect. :D

jamestech

10-19-09, 10:51 PM

Here are a few more pics, I wanted some more as the Submersive looks pretty brown in the pics I took. It is a Red Cherry, which is Cherry that was stained red.
It is darker than my Rosewood veneered speakers but it goes with them nicely.

Yes ity is the most expensive finish option on the Submersive but let me tell you this, it was very well done. My Submersive is like a fine piece of furniture.
Good job Mark!! :cool:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0157.jpg?t=1250704782

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0160.jpg

Dood, you got the BADDEST LOOKING SubMersive!!!!!!!:cool::cool:

WilsonL

10-20-09, 12:04 AM

Saw this on Mark's site,

http://www.seaton-sound.com/mark/SubMersive-pics/ss-esp-1.jpg

WilsonL

10-20-09, 12:04 AM

http://www.seaton-sound.com/mark/SubMersive-pics/ss-esp-3.jpg

LTD02

10-20-09, 01:18 AM

Saw this on Mark's site,

http://www.seaton-sound.com/mark/SubMersive-pics/ss-esp-1.jpg

odd choice of colors for the top of the sub. ;-)

kidding aside, mark's works are turning out quite nicely. for the performance level targeted, one would be hard pressed to beat them. i've modeled thousands of designs and mark's are right there around the top--good balance across many performance measures.

i'm curious about suggested crossover points and efficiency. how would crossover frequency change if one were to mate a low efficiency speaker (~90db - 1w1m) to the submersive vs. a high efficiency speaker (~97db - 1w1m)?

jamestech

10-20-09, 01:41 AM

odd choice of colors for the top of the sub. ;-)

kidding aside, mark's works are turning out quite nicely. for the performance level targeted, one would be hard pressed to beat them. i've modeled thousands of designs and mark's are right there around the top--good balance across many performance measures.

i'm curious about suggested crossover points and efficiency. how would crossover frequency change if one were to mate a low efficiency speaker (~90db - 1w1m) to the submersive vs. a high efficiency speaker (~97db - 1w1m)?

? I don't think a speaker's efficiency has anything to do with what a good crossover point for the subwoofer would be.

Speaking of crossover frequency , the other day I spent a good hour and a half crossing my speakers and SubMersive between 80hz 90hz and 100hz. At first I thought the SubMersive was easier to locate @ 80hz and 100hz it seemed to kind of spread out and get bigger and less easy to locate. I went back and forth back and forth back and forth back and forth , you get the idea. At the end of around 1.5 hours I was back to 80hz and feel that everything sounded best at 80hz.
So my left center right and surrounds send everything from 80hz on down to the SubMersive. LFE is set to 80hz as well but I have some experimenting to do there with setting LFE to 100hz and 120hz.......but I am gonna guess that 80hz is best there as well.

jamestech

10-20-09, 01:54 AM

Note to SubMersive owners, do not be afraid of that gain knob, I recently cranked mine to 8 on the SubMersive, -4.5db in Audyssey and it sounds better than it ever has. :D

Ive tried at least 10 different settings for the SubMersive's gain and Audyssey and what I have now is about perfect, I will likely go and change it again but I am very close to perfection. ;)

ronnt88

10-20-09, 01:55 AM

hi jamestech... 8 = 80%? Will go back & check it out ... usually I just crank it up to the point where my plaster ceiling starts rattling:P

LTD02

10-20-09, 03:52 AM

"? I don't think a speaker's efficiency has anything to do with what a good crossover point for the subwoofer would be."

are you running low efficiency mains? ;-)

sandbagger

10-20-09, 09:59 AM

hi jamestech... 8 = 80%? Will go back & check it out ... usually I just crank it up to the point where my plaster ceiling starts rattling:P

you still have plaster haning from the ceiling? :eek: well, I guess I have had mine longer than most:p

JapanDave

10-20-09, 10:23 AM

you still have plaster haning from the ceiling? :eek: well, I guess I have had mine longer than most:p

Makes me glad my room is solid concrete!

JHAz

10-20-09, 10:24 AM

"? I don't think a speaker's efficiency has anything to do with what a good crossover point for the subwoofer would be."

are you running low efficiency mains? ;-)

I've always thought the primary issue in selecting a crossover point is to get a good blend between the sub and the mains. Efficiency of the mains of course effects how much power they require to reach a particular volume, but AFAIK is not directly related to frequency response or extension. Can you explain how the mains' efficiency might affect the crossover point selection? The only thing I can think of is if your mains are underpowered, moving more bass ot the sub (higher crossover) could theoretically take some load off the amps . . .

Mark Seaton

10-20-09, 12:14 PM

I've always thought the primary issue in selecting a crossover point is to get a good blend between the sub and the mains. Efficiency of the mains of course effects how much power they require to reach a particular volume, but AFAIK is not directly related to frequency response or extension. Can you explain how the mains' efficiency might affect the crossover point selection? The only thing I can think of is if your mains are underpowered, moving more bass ot the sub (higher crossover) could theoretically take some load off the amps . . .

Correct. Efficiency itself is not the issue. Capability is.

Sometimes lower efficiency comes with less capable, smaller speakers, sometimes it comes from deep reaching speakers in reasonable size boxes that just take a lot more power to deliver the same output.

A good blend between the speakers and subwoofer is the goal, and the room has as great an impact on this as the speaker or sub behavior. It's more a case of the SubMersive being very flexible and capable of handling crossovers up higher which can be needed in some tough rooms or with speakers with weak 60-120Hz capability. The M&K S150 series are a great example, along with plenty of other small speakers. As you also note, receivers have some limit to the power on tap, and moving to higher crossover frequencies relieves them of bandwidth and power for a given playback level.

jamestech

10-20-09, 12:22 PM

I don't think a speaker's efficiency has anything to do with what a good crossover point for the subwoofer would be.

are you running low efficiency mains? ;-)

Well I think my speakers are at least fairly inefficient @ 83db/86db/87db but even if they were 101db efficient I am pretty sure the crossover point would not change.

Please explain what your thoughts are here, I don't get it.

jamestech

10-20-09, 12:32 PM

A good blend between the speakers and subwoofer is the goal, and the room has as great an impact on this as the speaker or sub behavior.

In my case I am pretty sure my room has the largest impact on getting a good blend.

tvckmiller

10-20-09, 10:48 PM

I am absolutely thrilled with my Submersive at this point but I do have a little delema. I am not getting as much mid bass out of it as I had from my subs before. The lows are incredible but there seems to be a hole in the mid bass although the measurement do not show it. There is several peaks and nulls. The most pronounced is the peak that begins at around 50 Hz and goes to roughly 65. Other than that, there is about 10 db of variance across the frequency.

I have the sub corner loaded, about 1.5 feet from wall on left and firing along the wall. It is just about 2 feet to the left of my front left main. Could this be the problem? I do have it all measured for time alignment so I don't think that is the issue.

How many of you have the sub firing into the room toward you and to the wall behind it? I haven't tried it yet. Anyway, as I digress, I noticed the problem when I fired up Complex Live (Blue man group). Just not the mid bass thump in the chest I got before. It is there but it doesn't really hit you. I moved to House of Flying Daggers and experienced the same. Now, I should also say that since I have to use the 7.1 analog outs on the Panny BD55, I do seem to have to really crank it up on the Arcam sub level to get the same results that I do with the older NAD DVD player using digital coax. The Arcam Avr 300 does not decode the new formats.

I know this sub is capable of nauseating mid bass because people talk about it all the time and everything else I have read is true. I am currently running my Arcam's crossover at 90Hz, not much difference than 80 but to my thinking I would rather cross it as high as I can without localization. I just think the Submersive should handle as much as it can.

The new Transformers is a perfect example of my little issue. It really has some low content but things like large caliber gun fire should be really thumping me in the chest.... It isn't.

Any ideas would be helpful

Mike_WI

10-21-09, 02:51 AM

JimP

10-21-09, 05:49 AM

. Now, I should also say that since I have to use the 7.1 analog outs on the Panny BD55, I do seem to have to really crank it up on the Arcam sub level to get the same results that I do with the older NAD DVD player using digital coax. The Arcam Avr 300 does not decode the new formats.

That's normal for analog output relative to digital output. The analog subwoofer output is set lower to provide wider dynamic range and has to be compensated for elsewhere. Run a calibration DVD to find out how much you need to boost your subwoofer channel when using analog outs.

Try that and then get back to us.

Also keep in mind that most find running their subwoofer hot from 3 to 5 dbs better than running it flat.

Jeratt

10-21-09, 05:36 PM

Mark sure must be a busy guy. I'm ready to make my sub purchase but having a a bit of a difficult time touching base with him:(.

tvckmiller

10-21-09, 06:01 PM

Pics of FR (or other) curves?
Optimized location? Was it the location of last sub?
What was last sub?

That might help the sub gurus here.

Mike

No pics because I am just using test tones and graph paper. Yes I believe it is the optimized location and yes it is the location of the last pair of subs. I did crawl for bass with the submersive just make sure. There are technically 2 other locations as good as the front left corner but certainly no better. The front left is one of my only viable locations. I have the submersive firing along the back wall now.

The previous pair of subs were: an M&K Mx350 and a DIY, 12" Dayton Titanic in a ported enclosure tuned to about 22 Hz. It used a 250watt PE class AB amp. I got peaks of about 115-117 at listening position but they did not look good together and they did not go very low. They did however, have incredible mid bass slam.

I simply can't think of any reason why the Submersive is not hitting the 50 to 100 Hz areas as hard. It does a nice job, just not as good as the others did. Now I know something has got to be wrong in the setup. Could it be as simple as turning the sub to fire into the room. How about Cross over points? My Submersives gain is set at 1 on the dial. My Arcam's sub level is at -7.

Mark Seaton

10-21-09, 06:11 PM

Mark sure must be a busy guy. I'm ready to make my sub purchase but having a a bit of a difficult time touching base with him:(.

Hi Jeratt,

I apologize for the delayed response. Things have been quite crazy here, particularly as I'm prepping our new office/warehouse (http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3740510#1) to receive many parts for SubMersives next week (http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3364736#1). Lead times for most all SubMersive finishes will be much shorter by the end of next week. :cool:

You will see a response tonight or tomorrow.

Picasso Moon

10-21-09, 06:17 PM

Mark sure must be a busy guy. I'm ready to make my sub purchase but having a a bit of a difficult time touching base with him:(.

I know he has been busy moving into the new Seaton Sound Global Headquarters (http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3740510).

He is a bit hard to get in touch with at times but please try to be patient, he will get back with you eventually. It is well worth the wait I assure you. Also, once you do get in touch with him I found Mark to be pleasure to talk to, very personable and eminently knowledgeable.

Jeratt

10-21-09, 06:34 PM

Hi Jeratt,

I apologize for the delayed response. Things have been quite crazy here, particularly as I'm prepping our new office/warehouse (http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3740510#1) to receive many parts for SubMersives next week (http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3364736#1). Lead times for most all SubMersive finishes will be much shorter by the end of next week. :cool:

You will see a response tonight or tomorrow.

Great, good to hear. Thx Mark.

Jeratt

10-21-09, 06:37 PM

I know he has been busy moving into the new Seaton Sound Global Headquarters (http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3740510).

He is a bit hard to get in touch with at times but please try to be patient, he will get back with you eventually. It is well worth the wait I assure you. Also, once you do get in touch with him I found Mark to be pleasure to talk to, very personable and eminently knowledgeable.

thx man, I'll hang in there and be patient:)

millerwill

10-21-09, 07:52 PM

Yes indeed--CONGRATS, Mark, on a beautiful facility! Great to see that an entrepreneur with good ideas and an excellent product can prosper in the present economic climate.

Dbuudo07

10-21-09, 07:55 PM

Congrats Mark! The space looks great. Will you have a demo room there?

James W. Johnson

10-21-09, 09:56 PM

CONGRATS, Mark, on a beautiful facility!

Ditto!! Very nice Mark!! I am sure I will make it out your way one of these days so I can come and meet you in person and check out your new facility.

Hey all so my banning finally ran out. :p I hope everyone is doing ok.

I gotta tell you all about something that happened, I was talking to a neighbor of mine today, his house is next door , approx 50 feet away.
Anyhow he told me in detail how well he could hear my subwoofer last night. I watched a BD I just bought...... I Robot , which did have some really nice bass :D
I told him if he heard that well then he is in for a real treat when I decide to crank it up! I told him I watched I Robot at approx the same volume one might watch the news at....BTW that is pretty darn close to the truth.:D

ronnt88

10-21-09, 11:08 PM

so was ur neighbor hinting a complaint or was he beggin for more? :P

James W. Johnson

10-21-09, 11:41 PM

so was ur neighbor hinting a complaint or was he beggin for more? :P

He thought it was pretty cool, ive had him over for a few movies so he knows I got a bad @ss subwoofer. :D

James W. Johnson

10-22-09, 12:38 AM

^^Oh.....what he thought was so cool was how well he could feel the bass.

I am gonna try to limit my movie watching to 10pm or so on the weekdays since I now know my SubMersive's bass travels so well. ;)

Mark Seaton

10-22-09, 12:47 AM

Yes indeed--CONGRATS, Mark, on a beautiful facility! Great to see that an entrepreneur with good ideas and an excellent product can prosper in the present economic climate.

Congrats Mark! The space looks great. Will you have a demo room there?

Thank you both very much. This move should allow a lot more to get done more quickly. :)

I don't currently have plans for any real demo capability here other than a touch, feel and pickup of the products and the various finishes. I do expect to have a few more local customers by early next year who can occasionally let others in on the fun. Serious demo space is for the next move, this one is all about availability and setting the stage for new products.

audioguy

10-22-09, 01:43 AM

I got around to measuring my room since I've added the two other SubMersives (for a total of 4) and I could not be more pleased. Even before Audyssey Pro was used the output was more than flat enough. I'm not sure about the rise in output around 6 or 7 Hz but it sure would not bother me if it were accurate!! That part is a bit different than when Mark measured my room when I installed the first two. My guess would be a microphone issue (or an Issue with Room EQ Wizard). The Green is with Audyssey engaged. I'm also not sure why Audyssey would not have flattened out the section around 6 Hz. But I'm not complaining !!

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/audioguy123/foursubwithandwithoutaudyssey.jpg

WilsonL

10-22-09, 02:15 AM

nice curve!!!!

Dbuudo07

10-22-09, 07:19 AM

That curve is mighty purty audioguy:cool: WOTW must be serious fun with that kind of performance;)

mike2060

10-22-09, 07:40 AM

JimP

10-22-09, 07:56 AM

Audioguy,

Does it sound better with or without Audyssey Pro engaged? If without, care to speculate what's going on.

audioguy

10-22-09, 09:42 AM

"What are you using to measure?"

REW with a calibrated mic. But not so sure about the measured response at 5 to 6 Hz. When Mark Seaton Measured it with his software (TEF I believe) there was a slight rolloff at that point with the curve being down about 4db. But I'll take eithe one, thank you very much :D:D:D

audioguy

10-22-09, 09:44 AM

Audioguy,

Does it sound better with or without Audyssey Pro engaged? If without, care to speculate what's going on.

Don't know but I would be very amazed if I could hear much difference given the very slight difference in the two curves.

Instead of enjoying my system, I spent last night trying to get REW to work on my Mac laptop:confused:

craig john

10-22-09, 10:05 AM

Don't know but I would be very amazed if I could hear much difference given the very slight difference in the two curves.
What you don't see in a frequency response plot is what Audyssey is doing in the time domain. IME, the time domain correction is more audible than the FR correction.

Instead of enjoying my system, I spent last night trying to get REW to work on my Mac laptop:confused:
I thought everything worked on a Mac! :D:D:D

Craig

kenobi

10-22-09, 10:26 AM

No pics because I am just using test tones and graph paper. Yes I believe it is the optimized location and yes it is the location of the last pair of subs. I did crawl for bass with the submersive just make sure. There are technically 2 other locations as good as the front left corner but certainly no better. The front left is one of my only viable locations. I have the submersive firing along the back wall now.

The previous pair of subs were: an M&K Mx350 and a DIY, 12" Dayton Titanic in a ported enclosure tuned to about 22 Hz. It used a 250watt PE class AB amp. I got peaks of about 115-117 at listening position but they did not look good together and they did not go very low. They did however, have incredible mid bass slam.

I simply can't think of any reason why the Submersive is not hitting the 50 to 100 Hz areas as hard. It does a nice job, just not as good as the others did. Now I know something has got to be wrong in the setup. Could it be as simple as turning the sub to fire into the room. How about Cross over points? My Submersives gain is set at 1 on the dial. My Arcam's sub level is at -7.

Got my Submersive for about 2wks now. I found that in my room (13x23x8-10 (ceiling) which leaks to side hall and kitchen/dinning area) the Submersive set on the right corner got boomy and indistinct bass if set to fire along the back wall. Now, I have it fire front and back and it is more articulate, less boomy, cleaner and tighter as well as a more slimmer, sleaker profile. Also, I may be experimenting with some nice hard footers to clean things up further. I have a feeling the rubber footers could be improved upon but to what extent I'll find out later.

Another thing I did was to replace the very nice stock cord and terminated a nice larger gauge Iego cable with gold plating on pure copper male AC plug and noticed more slam and weight. Last but not least, I also swapped out the stock fuse with a nice Isoclean fuse of the same value on initial install and am quite sure it further adds to the performance since it has been the case with my other fuse swaps in my upstream equipments. YMMV.

Regards,

Kenobi

audioguy

10-22-09, 11:11 AM

Another thing I did was to replace the very nice stock cord and terminated a nice larger gauge Iego cable with gold plating on pure copper male AC plug and noticed more slam and weight.
Regards,

Kenobi

Your results certainly differ from mine. In a previous time, I swapped out every power cord in my system AT THE SAME TIME (I had {then} over 30 pieces of equipment). These cords ranged in price form $200 to close to infinity, all very well reviewed as some of the best. A friend helped me perfrom a blind test to hear the dramatic difference we expected. AND WE HEARD ZERO DIFFERENCE. Prior to this purchase, I had dedicated lines for all equipment (a total of 8 dedicated 20 amp circuits) and everything was plugged into balanced power conditioners. Maybe had I not had these things, the power cords may have helped but I seriously doubt it.

For the money I spent on those power cords I could have purchased almost five more SubMersives !!

So my milage did vary.

By the way, I do have a number of power cords for sale:D

craig john

10-22-09, 11:58 AM

Got my Submersive for about 2wks now. I found that in my room (13x23x8-10 (ceiling) which leaks to side hall and kitchen/dinning area) the Submersive set on the right corner got boomy and indistinct bass if set to fire along the back wall. Now, I have it fire front and back and it is more articulate, less boomy, cleaner and tighter as well as a more slimmer, sleaker profile.

Glad you like your Submersives. Adjusting room position can have a significant impact on sound quality, as you've noticed. If you want to improve it even more, try some acoustic treatments for your room.

Also, I may be experimenting with some nice hard footers to clean things up further. I have a feeling the rubber footers could be improved upon but to what extent I'll find out later.

The Submersive's cabinets are very inert. They don't vibrate at all. Therefore, decoupling them from the floor with "better" rubber feet will likely have no effect. Of course, based on the rest of your post, it's likely *you* will hear a difference.

Another thing I did was to replace the very nice stock cord and terminated a nice larger gauge Iego cable with gold plating on pure copper male AC plug and noticed more slam and weight. Last but not least, I also swapped out the stock fuse with a nice Isoclean fuse of the same value on initial install and am quite sure it further adds to the performance since it has been the case with my other fuse swaps in my upstream equipments. YMMV.

Regards,

Kenobi

Do you have any way to *measure* your sound? I would be really curious to see if you could measure differences between the stock power cord/fuse and the aftermarket/snake oil. I put little stock in opinions like "I noticed more slam and weight." Measurements, OTOH, would be quite persuasive.

BTW, did you change the cabling in your wall? How about the run from the street to the house? What about the fuses/circuit breakers in your electrical panel?

I'm sorry, but this stuff is just silly... yet, there's certainly a whole *cult* following for this nonsense. I did a search for the power cords and found this:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50328.0

:eek::rolleyes:

Craig

James W. Johnson

10-22-09, 12:12 PM

Another thing I did was to replace the very nice stock cord and terminated a nice larger gauge Iego cable with gold plating on pure copper male AC plug and noticed more slam and weight. Last but not least, I also swapped out the stock fuse with a nice Isoclean fuse of the same value on initial install and am quite sure it further adds to the performance since it has been the case with my other fuse swaps in my upstream equipments. YMMV

lol, I hope your just kidding.:p :p

If the stock cord and fuse were not good enough the cord would be very hot or even melt and the fuse would be blowing.

There is not a chance in h*ll that you can hear a difference by changing the power cord and fuse. If you are hearing a difference its because you want to hear a difference, there is no difference.

I bet you have some $1000+ speaker cables too.:p :p

mojomike

10-22-09, 12:23 PM

Another thing I did was to replace the very nice stock cord and terminated a nice larger gauge Iego cable with gold plating on pure copper male AC plug and noticed more slam and weight. Last but not least, I also swapped out the stock fuse with a nice Isoclean fuse of the same value on initial install and am quite sure it further adds to the performance since it has been the case with my other fuse swaps in my upstream equipments. YMMV.

Regards,

Kenobi

(LOL) I'm sure Mr. Seaton is not astute enough to figure out what an enhancement little changes like a power cord and a fuse could make. :rolleyes: :D

James W. Johnson

10-22-09, 01:07 PM

(LOL) I'm sure Mr. Seaton is not astute enough to figure out what an enhancement little changes like a power cord and a fuse could make. :rolleyes: :D

Those Isoclean fuses might be nice but I bet the Furutech is way better....>
http://www.vhaudio.com/fuses.html#isoclean :D:D

sb1

10-22-09, 01:23 PM

Those Isoclean fuses might be nice but I bet the Furutech is way better....>
http://www.vhaudio.com/fuses.html#isoclean :D:DI'm still rubbing my eyes. Did I just see a $240 "cable stabilizer"?

Mark Seaton

10-22-09, 01:33 PM

I'm sorry, but this stuff is just silly... yet, there's certainly a whole *cult* following for this nonsense. I did a search for the power cords and found this:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50328.0

Craig

lol, I hope your just kidding.:p :p

If the stock cord and fuse were not good enough the cord would be very hot or even melt and the fuse would be blowing.

There is not a chance in h*ll that you can hear a difference by changing the power cord and fuse. If you are hearing a difference its because you want to hear a difference, there is no difference.

I bet you have some $1000+ speaker cables too.:p :p

Hi guys,

Audioguy made a reasonable response suggesting to take a careful listen to such changes. If someone tries with and without changes and is feels there is a benefit, they are free to employ whatever methods they prefer. Neither side should expect the other to come full circle in one statement. ;)

I am a proponent of well constructed and appropriate cabling, but less so the exotics, especially as any changes I make in box, crossover, driver or EQ have orders of magnitude greater effect.

Anyone is free to disagree with others. Please make an effort to follow that COMM 101 edict of arguing the issue/topic rather than attacking the person.

Thanks guys,

James W. Johnson

10-22-09, 01:48 PM

Anyone is free to disagree with others. Please make an effort to follow that COMM 101 edict of arguing the issue/topic rather than attacking the person.

Thanks guys,

COMM 101 edict ?

James W. Johnson

10-22-09, 01:53 PM

Guys, I know my postings come off as being mean very often but please know that I do not mean it that way.

I cannot help that I find these topics rather entertaining. :p

James W. Johnson

10-22-09, 01:55 PM

I'm still rubbing my eyes. Did I just see a $240 "cable stabilizer"?

I cannot seem to find that, where is it?

Nevermind, I found it>>http://www.vhaudio.com/isolation.html#isocleanstabilizer :p

The IsoClean CS-128 Cable Stabilizers are designed to accomodate Power, Speaker and Interconnect Cables of different sizes. The IsoClean CS-128 is constructed of high quality Copper plates for high mass and stability, and helps mitigate vibrations/resonances from being transmitted to your equipment. Chrome plated and provided with Stainless Steel tip toes for carpeted areas. The CS-128 is Non Magnetic and 100% Handcrafted. Unlike a lot of undersize, underweight risers on the market, the Isocleans keep your heaviest, stiffest cables where you put them!

Sold per unit!!!!

kenobi

10-22-09, 02:16 PM

Hi guys,

Audioguy made a reasonable response suggesting to take a careful listen to such changes. If someone tries with and without changes and is feels there is a benefit, they are free to employ whatever methods they prefer. Neither side should expect the other to come full circle in one statement. ;)

I am a proponent of well constructed and appropriate cabling, but less so the exotics, especially as any changes I make in box, crossover, driver or EQ have orders of magnitude greater effect.

Anyone is free to disagree with others. Please make an effort to follow that COMM 101 edict of arguing the issue/topic rather than attacking the person.

Thanks guys,

Mark,

Thanks for your clear-headed response that came with experience. I am not saying that the original stock fuse and power cord isn't adequate, it is and especially the power cord being above what one can expect from a piece of equipment.

I just thought I would share my own personal experience with you all on what I did with the parts I have lying around. If you feel differently and have no personal experience to back it up, well I can't twist your arm and won't bother. So, don't knock it before you try it.

James: I have the Furutech fuses as well with my upstream equipment. Just so happens I have spare Isoclean of the right value lying around unused so I swapped it.

I wish I couldn't hear the difference between audio gears and tweaks and I would be a lot richer. Heck, if I didn't hear the difference or believe there is any, I wouldn't be buying Mark's Submersive and probably settle with a boss acoustimas system and be done with it.

Cheers,

Kenobi

mojomike

10-22-09, 02:19 PM

Imagine what a killer power cord and fuses could do with Bose! :D

craig john

10-22-09, 02:25 PM

Mark,

Thanks for your clear-headed response that came with experience. I am not saying that the original stock fuse and power cord isn't adequate, it is and especially the power cord being above what one can expect from a piece of equipment.

I just thought I would share my own personal experience with you all on what I did with the parts I have lying around. If you feel differently and have no personal experience to back it up, well I can't twist your arm and won't bother. So, don't knock it before you try it.

James: I have the Furutech fuses as well with my upstream equipment. Just so happens I have spare Isoclean of the right value lying around unused so I swapped it.

I wish I couldn't hear the difference between audio gears and tweaks and I would be a lot richer. Heck, if I didn't hear the difference or believe there is any, I wouldn't be buying Mark's Submersive and probably settle with a boss acoustimas system and be done with it.

Cheers,

Kenobi

My issue is that you depend on your "perception" of the sound rather than any kind of measurement. If you could actually measure some kind of a difference, I would be much more persuaded to believe there is some substance to your perception. Short of that, I can only think you are experiencing the audio version of the placebo effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

Craig

kenobi

10-22-09, 02:27 PM

Your results certainly differ from mine. In a previous time, I swapped out every power cord in my system AT THE SAME TIME (I had {then} over 30 pieces of equipment). These cords ranged in price form $200 to close to infinity, all very well reviewed as some of the best. A friend helped me perfrom a blind test to hear the dramatic difference we expected. AND WE HEARD ZERO DIFFERENCE. Prior to this purchase, I had dedicated lines for all equipment (a total of 8 dedicated 20 amp circuits) and everything was plugged into balanced power conditioners. Maybe had I not had these things, the power cords may have helped but I seriously doubt it.

For the money I spent on those power cords I could have purchased almost five more SubMersives !!

So my milage did vary.

By the way, I do have a number of power cords for sale:D

Hi Audioguy,

Thanks for your perspective on things. Just curious if you burn in your cables. I know its another hot topic but my ears are very sensitive and a fresh set of cables regardless of cost in my experience just won't cut it.

Another thing too though is that I noticed many posters here, though much more experienced than myself, with much more resources may have somehow de-sensitized their ears-- however slight to notice differences in the subtler things in musical passages. Case in point, the extreme volume from listening to your HT or music at or near reference level could only hurt and not help your ears, especially long term exposure.

OK, enough from me. Lets get back to the submersive.

Peace out,

Kenobi

kenobi

10-22-09, 02:31 PM

JimP

10-22-09, 02:46 PM

Hi Audioguy,

Thanks for your perspective on things. Just curious if you burn in your cables. I know its another hot topic but my ears are very sensitive and a fresh set of cables regardless of cost in my experience just won't cut it.

Kenobi

You know you'll save money on home equipment cables if you stay on your meds. :)

sb1

10-22-09, 02:49 PM

You know you'll save money on home equipment cables if you stay on your meds. :)The only thing this hobby requires to be "burned-in" is our wallets.

craig john

10-22-09, 02:59 PM

Hi Craig,

I understand your perspective. Unfortunately, I believe this isn't as easily quantifiable as I would like. Subtle things could be experienced but not easily measured. I believe our hearing acuity is much more sophisticated and sensitive than any instruments in existence. If something doesn't register with a measuring equipment, does it necesarily not exist? To me, my ears are my instruments. Believe me, if I didn't hear it, I wouldn't spend the money because I am in deep **** financially speaking.

Best regards,

Kenobi
You're certainly free to believe anything you want to believe, and spend your money on whatever you want. If you find "value" in aftermarket power cords and fuses, them go right ahead and buy them.

However, I wouldn't discount the value of measurements. If speaker/subwoofer designers use measurements to design their stuff, what else is there?

Craig

kenobi

10-22-09, 03:45 PM

You're certainly free to believe anything you want to believe, and spend your money on whatever you want. If you find "value" in aftermarket power cords and fuses, them go right ahead and buy them.

However, I wouldn't discount the value of measurements. If speaker/subwoofer designers use measurements to design their stuff, what else is there?

Craig

Craig,

In no way am I discounting measurements. I am only saying that there are things that exist beyond measurements and the instruments created to decipher and register them. Heck, I was hoping to receive some help from some of you experts out here with the measurement aspect of things but just haven't done so.

Notice why test instruments are constantly being updated, refined, improved, honed? Because we have not reached the point of being able to capture everything as it now exists. Just as we have not reached the point of recreating sound at its ultimate fidelity--the quest nevertheless continues. If there's no reality outside of measurements, we'd still be in the stone age.

Kenobi

kenobi

10-22-09, 03:47 PM

You know you'll save money on home equipment cables if you stay on your meds. :)

The only medication I take is the occassional multi-vitamins and Omega3's. Can't say the same for dude.

Kenobi

Mike_WI

10-22-09, 06:10 PM

My issue is that you depend on your "perception" of the sound rather than any kind of measurement. If you could actually measure some kind of a difference, I would be much more persuaded to believe there is some substance to your perception. Short of that, I can only think you are experiencing the audio version of the placebo effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

Craig
That Placebo article might need to be a sticky on each AVS Forum and sub-forum.
(There was recently a study looking at one mechanism of the placebo effect with activation on the spinal cord and modulated by the supratentorial CNS, but I digress...)

A few quotes:

- Holt, J. Gordon
"The better the ad, the worse the product."

- Mayo, Charles H.
1931 – “It took the world from the day of its creation to the time of the sixteenth century to raise a doubting thomas of sufficient mental strength and courage to state that questions were not answered by authority, but by experiment.”

- von Recklinghausen, Daniel R.
"If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad.
If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing."

Measurements don't tell everything, but they tell alot.
With a piece of WIRE (not a transducer or complicated electronics package, but a WIRE), they are very good at capturing what is going on.

When there is no theoretical (by physics not marketing) reason something should work, then the burden of proof is on a blinded study.

Anyone can hear/experience something and even enjoy a placebo effect, but they shouldn't suggest that subjective experience as a generalizable phenomena.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

craig john

10-22-09, 06:47 PM

Craig,

In no way am I discounting measurements. I am only saying that there are things that exists beyond measurements and the instruments created to decipher and register them. Heck, I was hoping to receive some help from some of you experts out here with the measurement aspect of things but just haven't done so.

Notice why test instruments are constantly being updated, refined, improved, honed? Because we have not reached the point of being able to capture everything as it now exists. Just as we have not reached the point of recreating sound at its ultimate fidelity--the quest nevertheless continues. If there's no reality outside of measurements, we'd still be in the stone age.

Kenobi

Just curious... have ever tried an unsighted, or better yet, double blinded test to see if you could "perceive" the difference without knowing which cord or fuse you were listening to? Even if there is no measurable difference between 2 cords, if you could pick the aftermarket cord, and identify it as the "better" cord with enough regularity to be statistically significant, then that would be enough evidence to persuade me that there is something "unmeasurable" going on. It would be interesting to try, don't you think?

Craig

kenobi

10-22-09, 11:43 PM

That Placebo article might need to be a sticky on each AVS Forum and sub-forum.
(There was recently a study looking at one mechanism of the placebo effect with activation on the spinal cord and modulated by the supratentorial CNS, but I digress...)

A few quotes:

- Holt, J. Gordon
"The better the ad, the worse the product."

- Mayo, Charles H.
1931 – “It took the world from the day of its creation to the time of the sixteenth century to raise a doubting thomas of sufficient mental strength and courage to state that questions were not answered by authority, but by experiment.”

- von Recklinghausen, Daniel R.
"If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad.
If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing."

Measurements don't tell everything, but they tell alot.
With a piece of WIRE (not a transducer or complicated electronics package, but a WIRE), they are very good at capturing what is going on.

When there is no theoretical (by physics not marketing) reason something should work, then the burden of proof is on a blinded study.

Anyone can hear/experience something and even enjoy a placebo effect, but they shouldn't suggest that subjective experience as a generalizable phenomena.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

Mike,

Thanks for all your quotes. Words alone will not invalidate what my ears tell me just as my words don't change minds that are not opened. Do you have the same vision as everybody else? The same intelligence? Same tastes, same preferences, same hearing acuity? Why do you expect that I have ears like yours then? I know your reality but do you know mine?

Let me ask you and those applicable.

Imagine you have a nice piece of cake in front of you.

A) Do you examine the recipe and dismiss the cake before you eat it.
B) Do you eat it and then examine the recipe if warranted?

Most will choose B. If it doesn't taste good you'll simply trash the cake and won't bother with the recipe.

Do you enjoy musical compositions on paper or its performance? I know some passionate musicians do not require audiophile set ups to enjoy music because they can better visualize it in their minds. I on the other hand enjoys my music that comes only thru my ears which then feeds my emotion and lastly my analytical mind.

Kenobi

kenobi

10-22-09, 11:54 PM

Just curious... have ever tried an unsighted, or better yet, double blinded test to see if you could "perceive" the difference without knowing which cord or fuse you were listening to? Even if there is no measurable difference between 2 cords, if you could pick the aftermarket cord, and identify it as the "better" cord with enough regularity to be statistically significant, then that would be enough evidence to persuade me that there is something "unmeasurable" going on. It would be interesting to try, don't you think?

Craig

Firstly, my apology to Mark for bringing this topic up. This will be my last post regarding this topic.

A few years ago, I was in a financial rut, not happy, no money but enjoyed music so I decided to try out a pair of interconnects. Before plugging in the cable, I didn't have previous experience and didn't know what to expect. I sure as hell didn't want to keep ithem but just out of curiosity wanted to try and return the cords afterward. I swapped in the cords and didn't listen because the cable pushers at the time said I shouldn't judge them before they're burned-in.

So, I did the requisite 150+hrs before listening. When it came time for an addition, I realized that the music that I had been so accustomed to had a completely different presentation--the music appears to have much better pacing, fresher, livelier, faster, less smearing, more distinct--just like Mark's Submersive compared to all the subs I had previously. It wasn't even close and no need for double blind testing, over, as it was so convincingly better. So, I was a reluctant non-believer turned believer. Enough said.

Kenobi

Mike_WI

10-22-09, 11:58 PM

Mike,

Thanks for all your quotes. Words alone will not invalidate what my ears tell me just as my words don't change minds that are not opened. Do you have the same vision as everybody else? The same intelligence? Same tastes, same preferences, same hearing acuity? Why do you expect that I have ears like yours then? I know your reality but do you know mine?

Let me ask you and those applicable.

Imagine you have a nice piece of cake in front of you.

A) Do you examine the recipe and dismiss the cake before you eat it.
B) Do you eat it and then examine the recipe if warranted?

Most will choose B. If it doesn't taste good you'll simply trash the cake and won't bother with the recipe.

Do you enjoy musical compositions on paper or its performance? I know some passionate musicians do not require audiophile set ups to enjoy music because they can better visualize it in their minds. I on the other hand enjoys my music that comes only thru my ears which then feeds my emotion and lastly my analytical mind.

Kenobi

If someone tells me they prefer chocolate over vanilla, no big deal.

If someone tells me that cake "A" tastes better than cake "B" at a $200 markup and I do a blinded taste test and they taste the same, then I dispute that claim.

If somone hears the marketing for cake "A" and likes it more, but is unable to taste the difference vs. cake "B" in a blinded taste test, then the placebo effect (and likely marketing) is the factor involved.

In that situation the claims that "A" is better than "B" is invalidated.

However, if someone doensn't have an interest in doing a double blind test because they have no desire to or want the placebo effect, that's cool.
In an AV SCIENCE forum however that doesn't always meet with a non-critical evaluation from the gallery.

Mike

James W. Johnson

10-23-09, 01:02 AM

Hey guys, do any of you SubMersive owers here have one of these bad boys by any chance ?.......>>>

Purist Audio Design Limited Edition cable

http://pic3.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1240999866.jpg

Someone has a 6 footer for NEARLY HALF OFF retail on Audiogon, looks like a smoking deal to me. LINK (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?powrcabl&1260349166&/Purist-Audio-Design-Limited-Ed)

If anyone here does happen to have one please tell me how these bad boys perform.

KyleLee

10-23-09, 04:03 AM

How about this.... has anyone successfully made a "worse" sounding cable?

Yes, use as much money as you can and make a cable out of copper that degrades your audio.

good luck!

kenobi,

Does PG&E use audiophile cables for high voltage lines? Heck, they don't even use copper - everything is aluminum. What is so dramatic about the 6 feet of wire that goes from your wall-outlet to your amplifier?

A voice coil is a straight piece of copper or aluminum, nothing fancy, nothing unique. Its solid all the way thu and insulated with a very very thin baked on film so it does not short onto itself. Its as simple as you can get and its very long when unwound - usually longer than the speaker wire going to the amp - e.g. its most of your conductive path.

tell me this, if every speaker uses a voice coil, then why are we spending many times the cost of the speaker to get the current from the amp to the voice coil? The voice coil must be a bottle neck right?

How to you burn in metal? What changes when you heat it up a bit, then let it cool a bit? What has changed?

Johnsteph10

10-23-09, 09:48 AM

Electrons don't care about "break in" or the content of the cable, or fancy cable wraps.

As Kyle above says, all of the high voltage lines leading to your house are cheap aluminum. The line leading into your house is aluminum. The 200a service lines leading to your circuit break are aluminum.

The lines leading from your circuit panel out to your receptacles are the cheapest grade copper you can imagine.

Adding a "fancy" cable at the end of the chain, simply, scientifically cannot make a difference.

craig john

10-23-09, 10:02 AM

Firstly, my apology to Mark for bringing this topic up. This will be my last post regarding this topic.

A few years ago, I was in a financial rut, not happy, no money but enjoyed music so I decided to try out a pair of interconnects. Before plugging in the cable, I didn't have previous experience and didn't know what to expect. I sure as hell didn't want to keep ithem but just out of curiosity wanted to try and return the cords afterward. I swapped in the cords and didn't listen because the cable pushers at the time said I shouldn't judge them before they're burned-in.

So, I did the requisite 150+hrs before listening. When it came time for an addition, I realized that the music that I had been so accustomed to had a completely different presentation--the music appears to have much better pacing, fresher, livelier, faster, less smearing, more distinct--just like Mark's Submersive compared to all the subs I had previously. It wasn't even close and no need for double blind testing, over, as it was so convincingly better. So, I was a reluctant non-believer turned believer. Enough said.

Kenobi

Did you ever, at least, put your old cables back in, just to be sure you were really hearing something different? 150 hours is a long time between listening sessions.

Craig

MIkeDuke

10-23-09, 10:39 AM

Hey, how bout that SubMersive Huh? Gets loud and low for me :).

whitehawk

10-23-09, 12:24 PM

James W. Johnson

10-23-09, 12:32 PM

Just sent in my e-mail requesting the quote... Have to let my wife know the exact dollar amount =D

I may be doing dishes for a while - but then again, maybe my sub will just vibrate all the crap off of them for me?

No, the SubMersive will break all your dishes , you and your wife will be forced to eat with paper plates, problem solved. :D

MIkeDuke

10-23-09, 12:33 PM

Just sent in my e-mail requesting the quote... Have to let my wife know the exact dollar amount =D

I may be doing dishes for a while - but then again, maybe my sub will just vibrate all the crap off of them for me?

Well, when Mark was testing the sub, I was told that the kitchen cabinets were really shaking. My kitchen is on the first floor on the other side of the house so who knows:D

sandbagger

10-23-09, 01:16 PM

Well, when Mark was testing the sub, I was told that the kitchen cabinets were really shaking. My kitchen is on the first floor on the other side of the house so who knows:D

Let me tell you guys a little secret;)

Mark has no kitchen cabinets right now, they were destroyed from testing the submersive:D

Johnsteph10

10-23-09, 02:01 PM

Did you ever, at least, put your old cables back in, just to be sure you were really hearing something different? 150 hours is a long time between listening sessions.

Craig

Good point. Audio memory is notoriously transient...

whitehawk

10-23-09, 02:10 PM

No, the SubMersive will break all your dishes , you and your wife will be forced to eat with paper plates, problem solved. :D

Off to costco for a crate of paper plates =D

James W. Johnson

10-23-09, 02:57 PM

Off to costco for a crate of paper plates =D

:D:p:D;):p

Stereodude

10-23-09, 07:41 PM

Mark has no kitchen cabinets right now, they were destroyed from testing the submersive:DI thought he used them for the boxes of the first few Submersives. :p

Johnsteph10

10-24-09, 11:53 AM

Like Mark has room for anything in his house other than Catalysts/Sparks/Submersives.... :D

Dbuudo07

10-24-09, 01:34 PM

Like Mark has room for anything in his house other than Catalysts/Sparks/Submersives.... :D

Don't forget you Terraform XL's;)

larry7995

10-24-09, 02:00 PM

so what happened to the guy that had 3 submersives in the back of his pickup truck?

KX250F

10-25-09, 10:33 AM

so what happened to the guy that had 3 submersives in the back of his pickup truck?

Here you go.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3305.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3299.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3301.jpg

DaveUpton

10-25-09, 11:08 AM

Looks great! Have you been sufficiently shaken/pounded by them thus far?

otk

10-25-09, 11:09 AM

that's sweet KX250F :cool:

what are the mains & amps ?

do you have an equipment list ?

mike2060

10-25-09, 11:11 AM

so what happened to the guy that had 3 submersives in the back of his pickup truck?

I was thinking his roof must have collapsed in on him :-p

James W. Johnson

10-25-09, 11:28 AM

Dood, you've got one bad @ss theater!!:p Please share your equipment list with us. Also id love to know what subwoofer(s) you upgraded from and what your experience with the SubMersives has been so far.

Here you go.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3305.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3299.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3301.jpg

KX250F

10-25-09, 01:31 PM

that's sweet KX250F :cool:

what are the mains & amps ?

do you have an equipment list ?

Dood, you've got one bad @ss theater!!:p Please share your equipment list with us. Also id love to know what subwoofer(s) you upgraded from and what your experience with the SubMersives has been so far.

Speakers

Mains = Aerial 20T v2's
Center = Aerial CC5
Surronds = Paradigm SA-35 Inwalls

Amps

Mains = BAT VK 600SE
Center + Surrounds = D-Sonic 6 channel 2 x 525, 4 x 250 (Center is bi-amped with the 2 x 525 channels)

Processor

Denon AVP-AIHDCI

Cables

I won't even go there since the great cable debate in this thread the other day.;)

Previous subs where two JL Audio F113's that I owned for over 2 years. Loved them and have nothing bad to say about them, but once the Submersives became available in the Veneers I said what the hell lets give them a try.

otk

10-25-09, 01:58 PM

Speakers

Mains = Aerial 20T v2's
Center = Aerial CC5
Surronds = Paradigm SA-35 Inwalls

Amps

Mains = BAT VK 600SE
Center + Surrounds = D-Sonic 6 channel 2 x 525, 4 x 250 (Center is bi-amped with the 2 x 525 channels)

Processor

Denon AVP-AIHDCI

Cables

I won't even go there since the great cable debate in this thread the other day.;)

Previous subs where two JL Audio F113's that I owned for over 2 years. Loved them and have nothing bad to say about them, but once the Submersives became available in the Veneers I said what the hell lets give them a try.

holy cow. now that's a serious theater and i'm sure serious 2 channel set-up as well :eek::eek::eek:

which projector you running ?

KX250F

10-25-09, 03:00 PM

holy cow. now that's a serious theater and i'm sure serious 2 channel set-up as well :eek::eek::eek:

which projector you running ?

Marantz 15S1

120 inch Stewart Studiotek 130

millerwill

10-25-09, 03:17 PM

Previous subs where two JL Audio F113's that I owned for over 2 years. Loved them and have nothing bad to say about them, but once the Submersives became available in the Veneers I said what the hell lets give them a try.

Any comments on how the SubM's compare to the JL's?

KX250F

10-25-09, 04:57 PM

Any comments on how the SubM's compare to the JL's?

I need more time to play around with the Submersive's, but at this point in time I have no regrets about getting them. The Submersives have much more down low and I feel like I'm not pushing them as hard as I did the JL's to achieve the same volume levels (More Headroom). The mid bass and upper mid bass of both is where I think the sealed design shines and is what I like most about both brands.

The Submersive's give nothing up to the JL's and add more on the low end. I'm not going to be one of these guys ripping up on JL. I really liked mine and they served me very well for over 2 years. Personally I get tired of the JL bashing that goes on in the sub forums, it gets old and boring. They where on top for awhile and now they are not, eventually something will come along that will be better than the Submersive (Most likely another Seaton Design)

millerwill

10-25-09, 05:35 PM

I need more time to play around with the Submersive's, but at this point in time I have no regrets about getting them. The Submersives have much more down low and I feel like I'm not pushing them as hard as I did the JL's to achieve the same volume levels (More Headroom). The mid bass and upper mid bass of both is where I think the sealed design shines and is what I like most about both brands.

The Submersive's give nothing up to the JL's and add more on the low end. I'm not going to be one of these guys ripping up on JL. I really liked mine and they served me very well for over 2 years. Personally I get tired of the JL bashing that goes on in the sub forums, it gets old and boring. They where on top for awhile and now they are not, eventually something will come along that will be better than the Submersive (Most likely another Seaton Design)

Thanks for a very 'mature' evaluation!

James W. Johnson

10-25-09, 09:38 PM

Thanks for a very 'mature' evaluation!

+1 and I will admit that ive done my share of JL Audio bashing but alot of it was in reply to bashing on the SubMersive. I will stop there.........Anywho , KX250F , you don't sound too impressed. Please don't be afraid to crank your SubMersive's gain knobs up on the high side. I guarantee you this, after all is said and done if you are not totally blown away with the SubMersives compared to your F113s then you don't have your SubMersive set up properly. And it might take you a good couple of weeks to really get to know the SubMersive well and get it dialed in perfectly.

KX250F

10-25-09, 10:58 PM

ZivkoF

10-26-09, 12:26 AM

Oh I'm impressed with them, and trust me I have cranked them up. As I already stated they do the job and do it much more effortlessly. I'm not one of these guys looking for the ultimate lows and cranking it up to obscene levels. I want that when it's called upon in a movie at the volume levels that I listen to, but I also want speed, finesse, looks (Aesthetics),build quality, and customer service. All of these qualities and values have been met with the purchase of the Submersives from Seaton Sound, and I am a very happy customer.

Am I glad I got rid of the JL's and got the Submersives? Yes

Hi KX250F,

Very nice setup :) you have those three Submersives very close to each other and they are faceing drivers also to each other is there any minimum distance subwoofer to subwoofer when turned driver to driver not to ruin the sound between them :confused: ? I have two folded horn subwoofers and would like to turn them to faceing to each other so would like to know what is the minimum distance between them when turned so :eek: .

KX250F

10-26-09, 01:59 AM

Hi KX250F,

Very nice setup :) you have those three Submersives very close to each other and they are faceing drivers also to each other is there any minimum distance subwoofer to subwoofer when turned driver to driver not to ruin the sound between them :confused: ? I have two folded horn subwoofers and would like to turn them to faceing to each other so would like to know what is the minimum distance between them when turned so :eek: .

Zivkof I spoke with Mark about this before I ordered them and he said that it wasn't a problem so I took his word for it. Maybe some others can chime in here and give you a better explanation.

I think your question deserves a better answer than this, but unfortunately I am not the one that has the answer.

Mark Seaton

10-26-09, 02:28 AM

Hi KX250F,

Very nice setup :) you have those three Submersives very close to each other and they are faceing drivers also to each other is there any minimum distance subwoofer to subwoofer when turned driver to driver not to ruin the sound between them :confused: ? I have two folded horn subwoofers and would like to turn them to faceing to each other so would like to know what is the minimum distance between them when turned so :eek: .

The SubMersive's design allows very close placement to a boundary such that ~3" from a wall is plenty and does not cause any significant changes in the performance. With different products and especially with different design types, this will not always be the case. A folded horn will react much more to such placement and would typically want to maintain an open area at least as large as the horn mouth (open end of box). Best bet is to get Room EQ Wizard running and measure and see.

ken wu

10-26-09, 05:46 AM

KX250F

10-26-09, 07:57 AM

Thanks KX250F for your impression on the submersives.
As we already know in the low frequency reproduction what the submersive is capable of,
would you share more detail with us about the main differences in the mid and higher bass(say 40Hz and up)
between the subMersive and the F113?
I know the submersive is clean and swift, would the F113 offer some different perspective soundqualitywise?

I've only had the Submersives up and running for only a week. I have literally only watched 2 movies (Transformers 2 & Valkire), and some clips from Kung Fu Panda, Blade II, and the Hulk (New one). I have used KFP, and Blade II as demos for friends for a long time so I know these two very well on my system. Using the three movies mentioned I noticed more similarities between the Submersive's and JL's than differences. I think both excel in this part of the audio spectrum, however the Submersive seems to have more of it and does not need to be cranked up so much.

I did a brief stint with a pair of Epik Dynasty's before getting the Submersive's. It took me about two weeks to get them in a spot where I was starting to get happy with them, but there was always something still missing compared to the JL's. In the end I think it was the design of the Dynasty being ported and maybe the bigger driver. I think I had become so used to the JL's and there (Signature sound) over the 2 years of owning them that nothing else would do.

Now I had a decision to make. The JL's where sold and gone, do I get two more F113's, two F212's or try two or three Submersives. You see my decision.

Now where it took me two weeks with the Dynasty's to get them in a spot where I was happy it took me about two minutes with the Submersives. I pretty much unpacked two of them and put them in the same spots I had the JL's. The third was not used at first since I had planned on using it in the back of the room where Mark had suggested and probably will end up. I used Aydussey to get my distance settings and thats it we where off and running. The first movie I put in was Kung Fu Panda, I went through the couple of scenes that I usually watch. Now I don't have a mirror in my theater but I'm sure if did I could see myself smiling:) or maybe it was more like this:eek: I don't know.

I know I didn't really answer your question directly. All I know is that the JL F113 is a awesome sub, and I feel it's major flaw is that it doesn't do the low stuff below 20hz. This was my main reason for wanting to get rid of the JL's, I used to use them on two channel but since I got my Aerials in March the JL's where no longer needed to two channel and where for movie duty only. At that point I told myself I want to try something different and the search for a replacement began. The Submersive is everything the JL is above 20hz but with more headroom, and it does do the stuff below 20hz. For me and my setup this makes it the perfect match and now my sub search is over.

bfreedma

10-26-09, 08:47 AM

+1 and I will admit that ive done my share of JL Audio bashing but alot of it was in reply to bashing on the SubMersive. I will stop there.........Anywho , KX250F , you don't sound too impressed. Please don't be afraid to crank your SubMersive's gain knobs up on the high side. I guarantee you this, after all is said and done if you are not totally blown away with the SubMersives compared to your F113s then you don't have your SubMersive set up properly. And it might take you a good couple of weeks to really get to know the SubMersive well and get it dialed in perfectly.

Thanks for stopping there - then going there in the next sentence. I know you are, rightfully, impressed with your SubMersive, but have you even heard an F113 to gauge what the difference might be?

I don't know what you wanted from KX250F - he clearly stated that the SubMersive was an improvement for him and that he isn't looking for an SPL dragrace. It seems like he's been able to integrate them into his HT pretty well - key word being "integrate". As was stated previously, it was a mature review, rather than being overly evangelical discussing one sub or bashing a competent other.

As to JL owners bashing the SubMersive, care to point out any actual examples? They are both excellent subs, with the SubM clearly leading in low end output, but in a larger box that may not fit in locations the JL does. That is certainly the case in my HT and is not a "bash" at the SubMersive, just the reality of my room.

JimP

10-26-09, 09:02 AM

KX250F,

If you were able to boost sub 20hz performance on the F113 assumably with a manual equalizer, how do you think the two would compare?

ken wu

10-26-09, 09:27 AM

Using the three movies mentioned I noticed more similarities between the Submersive's and JL's than differences. I think both excel in this part of the audio spectrum, however the Submersive seems to have more of it and does not need to be cranked up so much.

...

I know I didn't really answer your question directly. All I know is that the JL F113 is a awesome sub, and I feel it's major flaw is that it doesn't do the low stuff below 20hz.

Great writeup, KX250F!

So I think it's safe to say the submersive has best of both worlds right?
And your experience on the Dynasty as well as alternative sub choice was a good reference.

The submersive sounds even cleaner than some of the servo subs on the market to my ears,
I find that a bit unusual and some of the friends here are wondering if it is due to
low distortion and impressive transient response or something else?