KX250F,

If you were able to boost sub 20hz performance on the F113 assumably with a manual equalizer, how do you think the two would compare?


Jim,

I've tried that with my F113, but the sub's built in limiters minimized the impact. Haven't compared them side by side, but I don't think there is anything to be done that would allow the F113 to have as much output down low as the SubMersive.

Here you go.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3305.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3299.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3301.jpg

Frack!!!! :eek: What size is your room? That is a great setup for sure!:)

I've only had the Submersives up and running for only a week. I have literally only watched 2 movies (Transformers 2 & Valkire), and some clips from Kung Fu Panda, Blade II, and the Hulk (New one). I have used KFP, and Blade II as demos for friends for a long time so I know these two very well on my system. Using the three movies mentioned I noticed more similarities between the Submersive's and JL's than differences. I think both excel in this part of the audio spectrum, however the Submersive seems to have more of it and does not need to be cranked up so much.

I did a brief stint with a pair of Epik Dynasty's before getting the Submersive's. It took me about two weeks to get them in a spot where I was starting to get happy with them, but there was always something still missing compared to the JL's. In the end I think it was the design of the Dynasty being ported and maybe the bigger driver. I think I had become so used to the JL's and there (Signature sound) over the 2 years of owning them that nothing else would do.

Now I had a decision to make. The JL's where sold and gone, do I get two more F113's, two F212's or try two or three Submersives. You see my decision.

Now where it took me two weeks with the Dynasty's to get them in a spot where I was happy it took me about two minutes with the Submersives. I pretty much unpacked two of them and put them in the same spots I had the JL's. The third was not used at first since I had planned on using it in the back of the room where Mark had suggested and probably will end up. I used Aydussey to get my distance settings and thats it we where off and running. The first movie I put in was Kung Fu Panda, I went through the couple of scenes that I usually watch. Now I don't have a mirror in my theater but I'm sure if did I could see myself smiling:) or maybe it was more like this:eek: I don't know.

I know I didn't really answer your question directly. All I know is that the JL F113 is a awesome sub, and I feel it's major flaw is that it doesn't do the low stuff below 20hz. This was my main reason for wanting to get rid of the JL's, I used to use them on two channel but since I got my Aerials in March the JL's where no longer needed to two channel and where for movie duty only. At that point I told myself I want to try something different and the search for a replacement began. The Submersive is everything the JL is above 20hz but with more headroom, and it does do the stuff below 20hz. For me and my setup this makes it the perfect match and now my sub search is over.

Hi There i have seen you mentioned epiks, how come you did not check out the paradigm sub 25 or the sub 2? I am down to 2 subs either the submersive or the sub 25 and maybe even the sub 2.

I see you got 3 submersive and you had 2 fathoms, why did you go with 3 in stead of 2? i will be getting a house next year and i think i will be coying your set up lol for my theater room.

Looking for some more final answers for my decision.

Here you go.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3305.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3299.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3301.jpg

:eek:Wow, nice set up:D

KX250F,

If you were able to boost sub 20hz performance on the F113 assumably with a manual equalizer, how do you think the two would compare?

Jim,

I've tried that with my F113, but the sub's built in limiters minimized the impact. Haven't compared them side by side, but I don't think there is anything to be done that would allow the F113 to have as much output down low as the SubMersive.

I actually asked JL's head of tech support about boosting the infrasonics with EQ before I decided to move from my F112's to the Submersives. He said exactly what bfreedma said: won't work. It's basically what made my decision for me.

Otherwise, I feel exactly the same about my departed F112's as KX250F feels about his departed F113's. They were great subs with excellent sound quality. For music, I had never heard anything better. I said all this a little over a month ago:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=759877&highlight=craig+john&page=78

Craig

Frack!!!! :eek: What size is your room? That is a great setup for sure!:)

The dimensions are 14.5W x 22.5L x 8.0H.

Hi There i have seen you mentioned epiks, how come you did not check out the paradigm sub 25 or the sub 2? I am down to 2 subs either the submersive or the sub 25 and maybe even the sub 2.

I see you got 3 submersive and you had 2 fathoms, why did you go with 3 in stead of 2? i will be getting a house next year and i think i will be coying your set up lol for my theater room.

Looking for some more final answers for my decision.

Kenshin I considered the Paradigm before really decideding on the Submersives and I tried talking to a couple of dealers, but they acted like they had the next best thing since slice bread and weren't cutting me much of a deal.

As far as 3 Submersives over 2. My Denon processor has three independent subwoofer outputs so I fiqure might as well use all of them. It also helped that when I talked to Mark Seaton that he felt that a third sub in the back of the room would help smooth things out. I don't currently have it setup that way because I need to remove my projector and get up in the rafters to run a cable back there. Hopefully I can get this done over the Thanksgiving Holidays when I have time off.

I cannot give you any direct comparisons between the Paradigm and the Submersive. I have never seen or heard the Paradigm but I'm sure it is in the league of the Submersive and JL Fathom's, but at a much higher premium $$$$. Only you can decide which is best for your application and wallet.

... Please don't be afraid to crank your SubMersive's gain knobs up on the high side...

So, how high up do you have the gain on your SubM set? Mine is at -10.

So, how high up do you have the gain on your SubM set? Mine is at -10.

Ok, well first off as you know , my settings are not good in any room but mine. I don't wanna read no posts like... "My SubMersive blew up , its James' fault!" :p

Anyhow my SubMersive's gain is at 8 , and Audyssey in my Onkyo TX-SR805 is at -4db. I also have a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033 which has been put thru the automatic calibration a few times to be sure everything was done right. In the speaker levels I run the SubMersive hot around 6-8db .

The results are superb, I am very happy with my SubMersive. One of my favorite things is when I have something on TV, I am not necessarily watching it and may be in another room. But here and there a bass note hits that you can feel. I try and listen for more and nothing, there might have been a tiny bass note in a commercial or something but its cool because you listen further and you'd swear the SubMersive is off .. I go on doing whatever it is I am doing and a half hour later I feel another nice bass note.
If you have ever felt the tiny tremors that come before an earthquake that is kinda what it is like. :-)

As I said , in the speaker levels I run the sub hot 6-8db , I wanted to add something.... it absolutely does not sound that hot..............that is the high sound quality of the SubMersive talking. ;):cool:

You run lesser subwoofers hot and they get to rumbling , rumbling, rumbling , on and on and on....they get on your nerves and you turn the gain down to 20% cause you've heard all you want to hear from it.:p

I just had my new JM Labs center installed last night. Since this is not a JM Labs forum I will only say I love it and finally having a matching center is great. I have known this dealer for a number of years. He was at this one store I used to go to a long time ago. Any way,

I wanted to give him a just a quick demo of the dynamics of my system. I first played the open scene of The Dark Knight. I put it up to -16db. It sounded great. I looked over at him and I could telll that he was digging it. The bass just filled the room. I gave him the particulars about the sub also. Then I said, "do you really want to see what this thing can do?" So I broke out WOTW. I played the Lightning scene. He was impressed. Then I jumped to the big scene that starts with the rumble in the streets. When it started he said, "man, that is low". That is the first person who actually said that they knew that it was going very low. Then the fun parts started and his face was a Holy Crap sort of a face. I told him how low I was getting in my room. I think he was impressed.

Anyhow my SubMersive's gain is at 8 , and Audyssey in my Onkyo TX-SR805 is at -4db. I also have a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033 which has been put thru the automatic calibration a few times to be sure everything was done right. In the speaker levels I run the SubMersive hot around 6-8db .

Thanks, James. Your values are actually no so diff from mine: my SubM's gain is at -10, my AVR 805's LFE trim is -4, and this is all through a SMS-1 with its volume at 15. (Room is ~ 2000 cu ft.)

[QUOTE=James W. Johnson;17425791]As I said , in the speaker levels I run the sub hot 6-8db /QUOTE]

Is this as measured with an SPL meter?

[QUOTE=James W. Johnson;17425791]As I said , in the speaker levels I run the sub hot 6-8db /QUOTE]

Is this as measured with an SPL meter?

The gain #'s on the SubM are the # of dB below the max gain. Therefore 6 is actually -6 below the max gain. As said, I have mine set at -10.

KX250F: How is the difference between the submersives and the two Dynasty's you had?

Is this as measured with an SPL meter?



Yes , I cannot say I know the exact correction . I think its 3db or so no?
So in reality the sub is hot 9-11db .

Do you happen to know what frequency the test tones on the Onkyo 805 ore ?

KX250F: How is the difference between the submersives and the two Dynasty's you had?


Good to see Hksvr4.

Well the Dynasty's had all the down low a man could ask for, but I was having two issues. First was placement so they didn't sound so boomy. Secondly I just couldn't get them to sound the way my JL's did in the mid-bass area. On movies with fight scenes the punches just didn't hit me in the chest like the JL's and now the Submersives do. Another example would be gun fire scenes in the new Hulk.

As I noted in a post yesterday, I feel that over the 2 years owning the JL's I had become accustomed to the sound of a sealed sub in my room. I think the Dynasty is a good sub by all means, but it didn't quite give me what I wanted in my particular setup.

Just so I don't sound bias I do have a Epik Valor sealed sub that I use in a second theater in my house. I have owned it since November 2007 and my 15 year old son and I have pounded the $hit out of that thing while playing video games and it has taken the abuse. Great little sub and what do you know it's a sealed design.

... my SubM's gain is at -10, my AVR 805's LFE trim is -4, and this is all through a SMS-1 with its volume at 15. (Room is ~ 2000 cu ft.)

With these settings, my sub is just marginally above the other speakers, maybe 1 to 2 dB (measured with the usual SPL meter and the 805's test tones). This is personal preference, of course.

I note that I also run Audyssey MultEQ XT (from the Onk 805) and then use the SMS-1 to make modest modifications from there.

Good to see Hksvr4.

Well the Dynasty's had all the down low a man could ask for, but I was having two issues. First was placement so they didn't sound so boomy. Secondly I just couldn't get them to sound the way my JL's did in the mid-bass area. On movies with fight scenes the punches just didn't hit me in the chest like the JL's and now the Submersives do. Another example would be gun fire scenes in the new Hulk.

As I noted in a post yesterday, I feel that over the 2 years owning the JL's I had become accustomed to the sound of a sealed sub in my room. I think the Dynasty is a good sub by all means, but it didn't quite give me what I wanted in my particular setup.

Just so I don't sound bias I do have a Epik Valor sealed sub that I use in a second theater in my house. I have owned it since November 2007 and my 15 year old son and I have pounded the $hit out of that thing while playing video games and it has taken the abuse. Great little sub and what do you know it's a sealed design.

That's what another user said about the Dynasty. He's comming off the Ultra13. The Ultra had the punch the Dynasty was missing. The Submersive has the best of both worlds. This makes me want the Submersive. I perfer the punch bass any day.

Hey KX250F. Do you think the Valor has a more puncher sound than the Dynasty. I use to own a Valor and man did it hit hard ton of mid-bass slam. Now I own a Dragon, let me tell the Dragon is one amazing sub. It slams alittle harder than the Valor but the biggest upgrade is the sound quality and the effortless bass of the Dragon. I also love the sound of a good sealed sub.

Hi Jeratt,

I apologize for the delayed response. Things have been quite crazy here, particularly as I'm prepping our new office/warehouse (http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3740510#1) to receive many parts for SubMersives next week (http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3364736#1). Lead times for most all SubMersive finishes will be much shorter by the end of next week. :cool:

You will see a response tonight or tomorrow.

Hi Mark, any word on this yet? Hope I'm not being pushy but my pockets are burning I don't know how much longer I can be strong for lol ;)

Originally Posted by millerwill
.. my SubM's gain is at -10, my AVR 805's LFE trim is -4, and this is all through a SMS-1 with its volume at 15. (Room is ~ 2000 cu ft.)



With these settings, my sub is just marginally above the other speakers, maybe 1 to 2 dB (measured with the usual SPL meter and the 805's test tones). This is personal preference, of course.

I note that I also run Audyssey MultEQ XT (from the Onk 805) and then use the SMS-1 to make modest modifications from there.




Your talking to yourself bro , id recommend that you go see a psychiatrist.:p

Hi Mark, any word on this yet? Hope I'm not being pushy but my pockets are burning I don't know how much longer I can be strong for lol ;)

Have some patience and don't go wasting your money on something else , trust me on this one Jeratt, your patience will pay off , like big time.

Mark does not just whip these SubMersives together, he puts each one together very carefully like its his own.

Hang tight, you time will come. ;)

Hey KX250F. Do you think the Valor has a more puncher sound than the Dynasty. I use to own a Valor and man did it hit hard ton of mid-bass slam. Now I own a Dragon, let me tell the Dragon is one amazing sub. It slams alittle harder than the Valor but the biggest upgrade is the sound quality and the effortless bass of the Dragon. I also love the sound of a good sealed sub.

I sense a little SubMersive envy in your post. :p Sell that Dragon and put that money towards a real subwoofer such as a SubMersive. :p ;)

Your talking to yourself bro , id recommend that you go see a psychiatrist.:p

Thought it might be useful info for some; obviously not for you, who seems to know everything already.

Have some patience and don't go wasting your money on something else , trust me on this one Jeratt, your patience will pay off , like big time.

Mark does not just whip these SubMersives together, he puts each one together very carefully like its his own.

Hang tight, you time will come. ;)

Ok thx James, encouraging words do help, I'll hang in there man. Took me a while to save up the dough so now that I have enough I wanna pull the trigger before some unforeseen badluck strikes and I end up needing it for something not nearly as cool as a new Sub lol *knocking on wood*

I sense a little SubMersive envy in your post. :p Sell that Dragon and put that money towards a real subwoofer such as a SubMersive. :p ;)

Who says that a SubMersive is better than the Dragon in his room? Are you a Submersive expert?

Bill

Gee I didn't think I sounded envious . I am very happy with my Dragon. I am sure the Submersive is nice and all but I really like my Dragon, if I wanted more output I could always get another Dragon.

Hey KX250F. Do you think the Valor has a more puncher sound than the Dynasty. I use to own a Valor and man did it hit hard ton of mid-bass slam. Now I own a Dragon, let me tell the Dragon is one amazing sub. It slams alittle harder than the Valor but the biggest upgrade is the sound quality and the effortless bass of the Dragon. I also love the sound of a good sealed sub.

Since I've had the Valor I've never put it in my theater and listened to it to be honest with you. I know in the second theater it sounds very good and punchy as well as loud. This game room as I call it is just a medium sized bedroom converted into a theater, it is less than half the size of my theater. My theater is in the basement so pretty much all the wall are concrete except the long wall to the right. Obviously the floor is concrete as well. The gaming theater is on the fourth floor of the house (Think Loft) so all wood floors, and walls. The Valor really connects with the room up there, but I think in the basement the Valor would struggle.

I don't feel I could really give you a honest comparison. The one thing I will say though is that the Valor was good but it always sounded boxy. I never got this impression with the JL's or now with the Submersives, but it also cost 1/4 the price of a Submersive and 1/7 the price of a F113.

The Dragon as well as the other Epiks look like very formidable subs, but I gotta tell you these Submersive's are growing on me each day.

If your happy with the Dragon then that's all that matters, and if it's getting the job done for you now I really see no sense in moving up to a Dynasty. I personally would stick with a sealed design no matter who the manufacturer is.

I have a question I'd like to pose to my fellow Submersive enthusiast.

Which manufacturer do you think will be the first to imitate the Seaton Sound Submersive. Personally I think it's going to come from someone eventually.

As a example. Take the Toyota Prius, the best selling Hybrid since hybrids came out. Now look at the new Honda Insight. From a distance you can barely tell them apart.

We all know the saying "Imitation is the highest form of flatter".

So who do you guys think will "flatter" the Submersive first.

I think it will be one of the name brand speaker companies like Polk or Klipsch.


I'm just doing this out of good fun so don't nobody go getting there panties up in a bunch.

Have some patience and don't go wasting your money on something else , trust me on this one Jeratt, your patience will pay off , like big time.

Mark does not just whip these SubMersives together, he puts each one together very carefully like its his own.

Hang tight, you time will come. ;)

Whooo Hoooo, my order is offically in. Can't wait:D:D:D

Who says that a SubMersive is better than the Dragon in his room? Are you a Submersive expert?

Bill

I am not just a SubMersive expert but a bass expert, thanks for asking.

Thought it might be useful info for some; obviously not for you, who seems to know everything already.

Seems ? Its not your imagination, because yes indeed I do know everything. ;)

Whooo Hoooo, my order is offically in. Can't wait:D:D:D

Congrats, I look forward to hearing your impressions when you get it. :cool:

Next.;):cool::D

Next.;):cool::D

that's when this smiley comes in handy http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee42/sub-woofer/bruce.gif

Seems ? Its not your imagination, because yes indeed I do know everything. ;)

An old proverb says: "A wise man never knows all. Only fools know everything." ;)

Congrats, I look forward to hearing your impressions when you get it. :cool:


Thx man, I can't wait. I too look forward to droping my impressions when I get it.

An old proverb says: "A wise man never knows all. Only fools know everything." ;)
:p


While on the subject on what a wise man says............


"Hard work never killed anybody" But why take the risk ! :p

Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak. :p

Whooo Hoooo, my order is offically in. Can't wait:D:D:D

Congrats. It will be worth the wait. I know mine was :).

The more time I have to think about this, the worse! putting $2k in a Roth right about now turns into a truckload of cash when I'm old enough to retire... =D

I know you're busy Mark - and all of us here are glad you've got crazy good business. Hope the new place is working out great for you.

The more time I have to think about this, the worse! putting $2k in a Roth right about now turns into a truckload of cash when I'm old enough to retire... =D

I know you're busy Mark - and all of us here are glad you've got crazy good business. Hope the new place is working out great for you.

the wife put her foot down didn't she :p

the wife put her foot down didn't she :p

lol!:p

No - she hasn't =D But fair enough to ask.

We've actually got one on the way (not talking about a speaker here) so...

for those still contemplating about getting the submersive, just imagine a product that u'll love more & more over time... these babes really do grow on u. I have only 1 but can imagine that having at least 2 would be purrrrfect!! :D

Anyone in the Edmonton, AB area have one of these beasts? After reading all this extremely positive feedback, I'd love to experience one first hand.:)

I have only 1 but can imagine that having at least 2 would be purrrrfect!! :D

or 3 ...... or 4 ......or ???? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

or 3 ...... or 4 ......or ???? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

y not? :p

I would love to add another pair to my HT. I just might.

John

or 3 ...... or 4 ......or ???? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Audioguy, don't be bashful ,we all know you really are Dr Evil and plan to shake the world to its destruction and ransom the world for 1 MILLION DOLLARS!!!

http://www.canpages.ca/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/dr-evil.jpg

I just want to know what you are going to call your evil plan?:D

Whooo Hoooo, my order is offically in. Can't wait:D:D:D

got my dual SubMersive order in today also
now do I sell my velo HGS-18 THX or add it to the mix - there are 3 outputs on my sm-1 :D

just have to pick out new pre/pro and new FP and settle in for Canadian
winter

got my dual SubMersive order in today also
now do I sell my velo HGS-18 THX or add it to the mix - there are 3 outputs on my sm-1 :D

just have to pick out new pre/pro and new FP and settle in for Canadian
winter

sell the HGS-18, save a bit more and get a third submersive. That way your third output wont get lonely and it wont have subwoofer envy:p

Hey guys, I have been playing around for a while with my placement and not finding alot of variance in the frequency response. Given that the total area I am moving around in is only about a 3X4 rectangular area, I am not surprised. It does sound great in the corner loaded position.....However, I am still confused as to where I should run the "attenuation" knob on the back. I am at full clockwise now. I also have no idea what the buttons that say PGM SEL and CH1 actually do. In or out?

chuck,

It doesn't sound like you have a SPL meter. You need one to know where to set the gain level on your sub and receiver.

Hey guys, I have been playing around for a while with my placement and not finding alot of variance in the frequency response. Given that the total area I am moving around in is only about a 3X4 rectangular area, I am not surprised. It does sound great in the corner loaded position.....However, I am still confused as to where I should run the "attenuation" knob on the back. I am at full clockwise now. I also have no idea what the buttons that say PGM SEL and CH1 actually do. In or out?

The PROT light means protection circuitry engaged (red LED) in most instances it automatically re-sets (LED goes off) in a few seconds if it does engage.

CLIP light is a nominal indicator that starts to flash a little prior to clipping. It is not uncommon during higher playback to have this light flash, especially in scenes with very deep bass content at high levels. Most consumer electronics don't have clip indicators as ignorance tends to be bliss in this regard. Sub amps without the light clip just the same or even more. :rolleyes:

Too much is defined by when you start hearing foul noises or "grumbling" complaints from the SubMersive. Other than possibly minutes of continuous VLF sine wave input, you shouldn't be able to hurt anything. If you keep pushing far enough past any audible cues, you might find the point where it calls a time out and the red PROT LED comes on. While that's a rather rare occurrence with SubMersives having serial numbers starting with an 8 or higher, you will at some point get there if you keep turning things up. No, I don't recommend trying to find it.

If you look directly above "CH1" it says mute, and that is all the button does. It is primarily for troubleshooting and during OEM programming (same with the PS-2 connector which looks like an S-Video connection).

PGM SEL determines which of 2 DSP programs are loaded at power up. Pressing this button while the SubMersive is on has no effect. The DSP program will not change until the power is turned off (all LEDs go off), and powered back on. Please leave this in the depressed position. The raised position has a slightly different limiter setting I left myself as an option (frequency response and gain is identical), but at this point I don't recommend this setting. Again, all buttons should be left in their depressed positions.

John

Hey guys, I have been playing around for a while with my placement and not finding alot of variance in the frequency response. Given that the total area I am moving around in is only about a 3X4 rectangular area, I am not surprised. It does sound great in the corner loaded position.....However, I am still confused as to where I should run the "attenuation" knob on the back. I am at full clockwise now. I also have no idea what the buttons that say PGM SEL and CH1 actually do. In or out?

both buttons should be IN .

How did you guys get information on the Seaton Submersive let alone place an order. I sent a few e-mails but got no reply. Is there a website where you can get the specs and place an order?

Thanks.

How did you guys get information on the Seaton Submersive let alone place an order. I sent a few e-mails but got no reply. Is there a website where you can get the specs and place an order?

Thanks.

Seaton Sound Central (http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3364736)

John

i cant believe you guys are getting multiple submersives, i have a decent sized room and one is plenty, i mean wall shaking plenty

i cant believe you guys are getting multiple submersives, i have a decent sized room and one is plenty, i mean wall shaking plenty

it's probably more to smooth response than getting more volume

plus with more headroom you can go a bit lower with EQ

Seaton Sound Central (http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3364736)

John

Thanks John!

got my dual SubMersive order in today also
now do I sell my velo HGS-18 THX or add it to the mix - there are 3 outputs on my sm-1 :D

just have to pick out new pre/pro and new FP and settle in for Canadian
winter

Hmmm...let me know if you willing to sell the HGS-18 for cheap. I just picked up one but having a spare one never hurts :)

I almost went with the Submersive but the HGS matches my other speakers better and was cheaper too since it was used.

How low does the Submersive go? Does it have drives on both sides of the box? Just curious.

Just wondering what levels do you guys keep your gains at on your Submersives? Man I can't wait till mine shows up. The more I read here the more pumped I'm getting. Hope mine makes the Nov.3rd shipment. Who knows maybe if I'm lucky I'll have mine here by next Fri.

i cant believe you guys are getting multiple submersives, i have a decent sized room and one is plenty, i mean wall shaking plenty

I've been wanting matching dual sealed subs for long time - since moving to much larger area- close to 5000 cubic feet including spill space.
Velodyne makes fantastic high end subs just incredible expensive and tough to get in Canada. My dual Submersives shipped cheaper than one dd-18
This is my first major purchase without audition but i've yet to see anything negative posted in 3 years with these subs

For Halloween last night I watched a blu-ray I recently picked up... 'Shaun of the Dead', the reason I am posting this is the SubMersive thread is because this BD has tons of fun bass on it :cool: , I highly recommend this blu-ray disc to all of my fellow SubMersive owners!!!

While on this subject, would all SubMersive owners please list a blu-ray or 2 that is alot of fun with a SubMersive. :cool:

James,

Shaun of the dead is a fun surprise for audio, as the movie is a lot of fun if you like the writing team's style of dry humor. If you haven't watched the team's second entry in a planned "trilogy" Hot Fuzz yet, do pick it up, as it's another comedy that isn't shy with the LFE. I'm plenty curious to see what we get from the 3rd entry The World's End when it comes out next year. I do find that Hot Fuzz is much more enjoyable after having been recently primed from watching Shaun of the Dead.

Enjoy

Looking for a little advice ....

My system is productive down to about 30 hz. below which things go south quickly. My room is of decent size (24' x 24' x almost 8') although the system is in one half of the room. If sub 30 hz. is my problem, would I be better served by a submersive or a terraform? I assume the latter, but is it available and although I checked 'Seaton Sound Central' I see no pricing inormation. Thx!

James,

Shaun of the dead is a fun surprise for audio, as the movie is a lot of fun if you like the writing team's style of dry humor. If you haven't watched the team's second entry in a planned "trilogy" Hot Fuzz yet, do pick it up, as it's another comedy that isn't shy with the LFE. I'm plenty curious to see what we get from the 3rd entry The World's End when it comes out next year. I do find that Hot Fuzz is much more enjoyable after having been recently primed from watching Shaun of the Dead.

Enjoy

Hot Fuzz has insane low end - was so unexpected when first viewed film

James,

Shaun of the dead is a fun surprise for audio, as the movie is a lot of fun if you like the writing team's style of dry humor. If you haven't watched the team's second entry in a planned "trilogy" Hot Fuzz yet, do pick it up, as it's another comedy that isn't shy with the LFE. I'm plenty curious to see what we get from the 3rd entry The World's End when it comes out next year. I do find that Hot Fuzz is much more enjoyable after having been recently primed from watching Shaun of the Dead.

Enjoy

I just bought 'Hot Fuzz' and pre-ordered 'The Hangover' from Amazon yesterday, thanks for the tip and letting me know about the trilogy. Have you seen anything else from Simon Pegg (Shaun) and Edgar Wright?

Don't give me any spoilers but how do these 3 film relate to where they become a Trilogy? Or perhaps most of their works are mainly British stuff?

Ive got my SubMersive set to -8 and -4dB in Audyssey , twice during Shaun of the Dead I went in and lowered it a dB and it sounded like -2dB did nothing. :D

I had seen 'Shaun of the Dead' on DVD before but I have never seen 'Hot Fuzz' , I look forward to it. :cool:

Hot Fuzz has insane low end - was so unexpected when first viewed film

:D:D:D I am excited now!! :D:D:p

While I can't comment on the audio part if you are a Simon Pegg fan of comedy there is a movie called Run Fatboy Run that he co wrote with Micheal Ian Black (The State) and is pretty funny if you like that sort of humor. I'm not familiar with how the audio compares to those other films though as I viewed it on cable and my system is lacking compared to you guys.

why is it so hard to grasp that a sub can out perform another? ive listened to a friends subMersive and yea it sounds great but why is everyone throwing such a fit that something might of come along that can match it or dare i say beat it for less $$

why is it so hard to grasp that a sub can out perform another? ive listened to a friends subMersive and yea it sounds great but why is everyone throwing such a fit that something might of come along that can match it or dare i say beat it for less $$

In generally I'll agree with you here. Everyone has different rooms and expectations in subwoofers vary dramatically. DreamCatcher also had many complimentary things to say about the SubMersive, and if you dig back he was able to get more of what he was after with some further adjustments to the setup over time, and I had posted what I suspected was causing what he was hearing, and I suspect the differences observed are related as much to different frequency responses of the subs and how they are interacting differently with the room.

Please guys, keep it civil.

I've owned dual Velodyne DD18's; Dual SVS PC13's and dual SVS PB12/Plus2 2's at the same time (all 4 were running simultaneously); Dual SVS B4's which are no longer in production (now THOSE were awesome beasts); Dual Dunlavy Tower Subs (each tower had 4 12 inch drivers in them in a cabinet of about 15 cf!) two other 18 inch Velodyne subs; and BagEnd Infra Sub 18's (and probably some more I have forgotten). And I now have 4 SubMersives.

Each of these had strengths and weaknesses IN MY ROOM. For example, the BagEnds, were a nice addition for music and had ZERO slam for HT (the dealer came to the same conclusion and quit carrying them). The Dunlavy Towers had limited placement options due to their size (74 inches tall, 33 inches deep and 15 inches wide) so uncorrected room response sucked. But when they were right, they were the best I had ever heard. But did not go anywhere near as low as the SubMersives; for me, the DD18's were the most underwhelming given the price point althought I did like the SMS feature. (As an aside, I had one of the DD18's in my family room before my theater and ABSOLUTELY LOVED it -- same sub, different room and different conclusion.). The SVS B4's were easily the most powerful and literally created room structural problems (each had 4 12 inch drivers in a somewhat off-the-wall design ported enclosure). The dual SVS PC13's were excellent. Great product and they did have slam. But due to the ported design and room placement I used, they could give up their location on occasion (port noise I assume).

The SubMersives are not perfect either. But IN MY ROOM, they are close. Unlike the poster who commented that IN HIS ROOM they did not move much air, IN MY ROOM, they move HUGE amounts of air. So for him, the SubMersive may not be the best choice. In my room, they are close to flat at 5hz (4 db down). I watched the newest Hulk movie last night and had difficulty not smiling due to the fun factor the subs added to the experience. (not a great movie but lots of great bass). But I'll bet that subs by other manufacturers in other rooms will provide another owner with the same smile factor.

So were are talking about (1) personal preference of delivered sound, (2)room, (3)value proposition (money spent versus objectives achieved) are the key factors in determining overall satisfaction with your purchase.

And there is no one answer. For me (as of November 3, 2009) it is the Seaton SubMersive.

Audioguy, wow. Four different companies with multiple subs from many of them. That is quite a list you have compiled. The SubMersive is only my third sub and I have never had more than one sub in my room at a time. And now you have four SubMersives. That is pretty impressive. I have to also agree with you on the fact that every person has a different room with different placement options. IN MY ROOM I have been scared plenty of times by what this sub can do. Does that mean that I question when someone is not satisfied? Not really. I can just guess that it is not a good fit for their room. That's part of what we do. Figure out what works and what does not. For me the submersive works.

Got the order in for mine today! Black Oak... Can't wait =D

This will be my first subwoofer. I guess I had one with my klipsch promedia 5.1s (computer speakers), but I don't think these can even be compared... I'm pairing it up with Klipsch RF-83's - I can't wait to see what it adds.

Got the order in for mine today! Black Oak... Can't wait =D

This will be my first subwoofer. I guess I had one with my klipsch promedia 5.1s (computer speakers), but I don't think these can even be compared... I'm pairing it up with Klipsch RF-83's - I can't wait to see what it adds.
Congrats! I suspect with those big towers, you'll be tempted to run the mains are "Large" or "Full Range". Resist that temptation, my friend! The Submersive will be a much better bass transducer than the woofers in your towers. Set your speakers to "Small", even though they are physically "large". This will invoke the crossovers and engage Bass Management. Send all that good bass to the "speaker" best able to reproduce it... the Submersive! :)

Best of luck with your new sub, and welcome to the fraternity.

Craig

Congrats! I suspect with those big towers, you'll be tempted to run the mains are "Large" or "Full Range". Resist that temptation, my friend! The Submersive will be a much better bass transducer than the woofers in your towers. Set your speakers to "Small", even though they are physically "large". This will invoke the crossovers and engage Bass Management. Send all that good bass to the "speaker" best able to reproduce it... the Submersive! :)

Best of luck with your new sub, and welcome to the fraternity.

Craig

Thank you - I need to remember to do that when the sub arrives!

Got the order in for mine today! Black Oak... Can't wait =D

This will be my first subwoofer. I guess I had one with my klipsch promedia 5.1s (computer speakers), but I don't think these can even be compared... I'm pairing it up with Klipsch RF-83's - I can't wait to see what it adds.

That is really good. The Black Oak looks like a great finish. Coming from no subwoofer to this one should be quite the experience. Just don't go too nuts with it. If you are not careful you could cause your ears to ring for several days:eek:. Not that I would know about that :p. Enjoy and we will be looking forward to your thoughts

Thank you - I need to remember to do that when the sub arrives!

I also use RF-83's for mains and run them small with a 60 hz crossover.

John

Just received my fed-ex tracking info and my Submersive will be here on the 16th...Oh Yeaaaaah!:D

what color did you get?

what color did you get?


I got the basic black. I'm a single dude rockin the "batcave":) so anything else would really be unnecessary(no WAF).

I got the basic black. I'm a single dude rockin the "batcave":) so anything else would really be unnecessary(no WAF).

I got the basic black as well. It looks nice. I said this before. Even before I started to pile stuff on it:p someone said "Hey, that is a nice end table."

Hey guys:

I'm looking for a gut check on my expectations for a Submersive from some current owners...maybe even from Mark himself.

I have a pretty small room ~13'x15' (~1,500 sq. ft.) that is at least fairly well treated acoustically (average RT60 ~235ms, if I recall correctly). I currently have an aging HSU VTF3 Mk2 for a sub. It's the only thing left in my setup that hasn't been upgraded over the years, and I'm starting to think it's time for a change. To it's credit, it does go pretty low, probably -3db around 15-16Hz and has a fair amount of punch. But it's just good, not great (IMO). The HSU has a hint of that visceral impact at low frequencies, but nothing really awe inspiring. I'm looking for something that will dig deeper and be able to get there with a LOT more authority than the HSU. I guess I'm looking for a day and night difference between my current sub and a new one. So, after all that, my question is....are these fair expectations for the Submersive considering my setup/room?

I'm not dead set on the Submersive, but it's definitely at the top of my list. It appears to represent a really nice intersection between price, performance and, ironically, size. I really like the fact that Mark seems to have been able to get quite a bit of performance without making the box the size of a refrigerator....

Thanks for any words of wisdom.


Scott

Hey guys:

I'm looking for a gut check on my expectations for a Submersive from some current owners...maybe even from Mark himself.

I have a pretty small room ~13'x15' (~1,500 sq. ft.) that is at least fairly well treated acoustically (average RT60 ~235ms, if I recall correctly). I currently have an aging HSU VTF3 Mk2 for a sub. It's the only thing left in my setup that hasn't been upgraded over the years, and I'm starting to think it's time for a change. To it's credit, it does go pretty low, probably -3db around 15-16Hz and has a fair amount of punch. But it's just good, not great (IMO). The HSU has a hint of that visceral impact at low frequencies, but nothing really awe inspiring. I'm looking for something that will dig deeper and be able to get there with a LOT more authority than the HSU. I guess I'm looking for a day and night difference between my current sub and a new one. So, after all that, my question is....are these fair expectations for the Submersive considering my setup/room?

I'm not dead set on the Submersive, but it's definitely at the top of my list. It appears to represent a really nice intersection between price, performance and, ironically, size. I really like the fact that Mark seems to have been able to get quite a bit of performance without making the box the size of a refrigerator....

Thanks for any words of wisdom.


Scott
Scott, my room is 12.5x9.5f with an 8f ceiling. I have a single. I know I should go slow with my wording but I don't think you will have any problems at all scaring yourself silly with this sub in a room that size. IN MY ROOM it digs lower then 15Hz. Most people have experienced the same thing. This sub has plenty of clean room shaking bass. I don't think putting this sub in your room will give you a "hint" of visceral impact at low frequencies, it will be out there for all to see. But the SQ is up there with the best subs I have ever heard. That includes subs from JM Labs(SW900 and Utopia Be) Martin Logan(The Decent), Wilson Audio(The Watch Dog) and the old Dynaudio Sub(Contour). Plus B&W and Velodyne.

Again, I don't know what else you are looking at but I don't think you would be going wrong with this sub.
P.S I just check your system. Pretty sweet setup you have there. The SubMersive will have no problem finding a home in a system like that. You have a very nice response to your system. How ever you treated it, you did it right. The SubMersive will help you extend that frequency resonse line even lower. Man, I hate to keep adding on here but I can't help myself. I see that you are using GIK treatments? That is the way I am going to go. But I am not going to get the TriTraps. No space for them. I will get the 242's for the front of the room(2) the Monster Traps for the Back wall(2) and the 244's over my head(2). How do you like them? The seemed to have worked great in your room. Plus, I had a subdude with my old sub. You won't need it with this sub.

Based upon the quality of what you already have, I would suggest that you run and not walk to your PC and order a SubMersive.

I have not owned them all (but way more than my fair share) but the SubMersive at it's price point, it easily the best out there of all of the subs that I have owned and/or heard. (e.g JL, Velodyne, large SVS, Wilson, DIY)

I PROMISE you will not be dissappointed --- particularly in a room the size of yours.

ssteel01: My room is only a bit larger than yours (15x17x8.5 ceiling, ~ 2000 cu ft) and 1 SubM does a fantastic job. Of course I was coming from a SVS PB10, so for me it was INDEED night and day!

Hey guys:
I'm looking for a gut check on my expectations for a Submersive from some current owners...maybe even from Mark himself.

I have a pretty small room ~13'x15' (~1,500 sq. ft.) that is at least fairly well treated acoustically (average RT60 ~235ms, if I recall correctly). I currently have an aging HSU VTF3 Mk2 for a sub. It's the only thing left in my setup that hasn't been upgraded over the years, and I'm starting to think it's time for a change.
Scott

Hi Scott, first off nice set-up you got there!, Secondly , what are you waiting for, get a SubMersive ordered. You are making a HUGE upgrade coming from a HSU VTF3 Mk2.
I look forward to hearing your reaction after you get a SubMersive set up in your room. :cool:

I currently have an aging HSU VTF3 Mk2 for a sub.

I replaced an HSU VTF3 Mk2 with a SubMersive (one at first, then another :)) and can tell you there is no comparison. No doubt the SubMersive goes lower than the HSU but beyond that it has slam and impact that are hard to describe unless you've heard it in person. It has the ability to hit you in the chest with authority and has a tightness when playing music the the HSU could only dream about.

I've upgraded every component in my HT system over the last year and nothing comes close to having the overall impact that going from the VTF3 Mk2 to the SubMersive(s) has had.

Hi Mike, audioguy, millerwill, James W:

Thanks for the info. It's especially helpful to hear from people that have one in a similar sized room. And it's always nice to hear more nice reviews of the Submersive (though I suppose I'd be worried if I heard anything less in an owner's thread). Just as an FYI, the other subs on the top of my list are the Ultra13 (because I'm too impatient to wait for their new 16" sealed sub to come out) and the JL F113 (used). Some of the stuff from other ID companies look interesting, but tend to have a bigger footprint than I'm willing/able to accommodate.


OT side note to MikeDuke:
I love the GIK traps and highly recommend them. Very affordable, very effective. Just FYI, the tri traps actually have a smaller footprint in the corner than the 242's. I originally had the 242's angled to cover the corners, but they stuck out pretty far. That said, the 242's do just fine as corner traps. I use 4 tri's in the corners and 242's behind the main speakers and on the back wall. Plus I still have to use the notch filter in my pro to tame a really nasty ~40Hz peak that the acoustic treatments really have a hard time knocking down.


Scott

I replaced an HSU VTF3 Mk2 with a SubMersive (one at first, then another :)) and can tell you there is no comparison. No doubt the SubMersive goes lower than the HSU but beyond that it has slam and impact that are hard to describe unless you've heard it in person. It has the ability to hit you in the chest with authority and has a tightness when playing music the the HSU could only dream about.

I've upgraded every component in my HT system over the last year and nothing comes close to having the overall impact that going from the VTF3 Mk2 to the SubMersive(s) has had.

Hi Picasso:

Well, I suppose that's about as relevant of a comparison as I could have possibly hoped for. When I think about that visceral quality, I think of the lightning strike in War of the Worlds or the sonic blast scene in Hulk or the helicopter takeoff scene in Blackhawk Down. The HSU does give a bit of a whump in those scenes in WotW and Hulk (it doesn't really deliver much of anything in Blackhawk Down), but I'm looking for a bit more than that.

I guess I should have asked everyone about thoughts on using the Submersive for music too (I got all caught up in asking about the HT aspect). Truthfully, I don't usually use the sub for music, since the mains do a pretty respectable job in my room, but I'm certainly not opposed to integrating the sub for 2ch.


Scott

There are other threads where where previous owners have compared the JL13 to the SubMersive and I personally had the SVS 13 Ultras. Price not withstanding, the SubMersive is the better of these three choices. I can not comment on the other options.

OT side note to MikeDuke:
I love the GIK traps and highly recommend them. Very affordable, very effective. Just FYI, the tri traps actually have a smaller footprint in the corner than the 242's. I originally had the 242's angled to cover the corners, but they stuck out pretty far. That said, the 242's do just fine as corner traps. I use 4 tri's in the corners and 242's behind the main speakers and on the back wall. Plus I still have to use the notch filter in my pro to tame a really nasty ~40Hz peak that the acoustic treatments really have a hard time knocking down.
Scott

Here is the thing, at this point I really don't want to put anything that big in the corners themselves. I just have a feeling they will dominate the room too much. But I have been talking with Bryan P and he feels that the plan that I put together is a good one and that it will help out the room overall. I will be experimenting with some other ideas for the corners at some point. Thanks for the feedback.

Submersive is on the truck for delivery next business day! Hope I get home from work before they show up...

Submersive is on the truck for delivery next business day! Hope I get home from work before they show up...

Mine showed up today. I'm crazy pumped but I don't get off work untill 11pm. Still just the fact that it's in my hands now makes me pretty happy, can't wait to hear it.

Happy to say that I am now "offically" part of the Submersive club:D

Submersive is on the truck for delivery next business day! Hope I get home from work before they show up...

Mine showed up today. I'm crazy pumped but I don't get off work untill 11pm. Still just the fact that it's in my hands now makes me pretty happy, can't wait to hear it.

Happy to say that I am now "offically" part of the Submersive club:D

I remember well the crummy wait! ;)

Looking forward to your impressions...

Just over 3 months into mine and I'm loving my HT, but actually even more unbelievably impressed with the music capacities of the SubMersive. I've re-discovered my music collection and had a so much fun via netflix with blu-ray concerts. David Glilmour is up next...

Just remember to eat your Wheaties before you start pushing it around!

Just remember to eat your Wheaties before you start pushing it around!


Hahaha, I actually have a buddy coming over to help me out as my Submersive is actually still in my car hatch here at work and I have to haul er' downstairs to the batcave. I consider myself to be fairly fit as I workout regularly but in no way what so ever am I gonna try to tackle this beast by myself. This thing was actually loaded into my car with a fork lift lol.

Hahaha, I actually have a buddy coming over to help me out as my Submersive is actually still in my car hatch here at work and I have to haul er' downstairs to the batcave. I consider myself to be fairly fit as I workout regularly but in no way what so ever am I gonna try to tackle this beast by myself. This thing was actually loaded into my car with a fork lift lol.

C'mon, man! Mine were delivered to my driveway. I put 'em on a handtruck and wheeled 'em around back, down a hill and into the basement. I unpacked 'em, and placed 'em, all by myself. They're heavy, yeah, ya just need to learn how to use leverage!

Man up!

:D:D:D

j/k of course. These suckers are heavy and big/awkward. The more help you can get to lug them around the better.

I'm sure you'll enjoy yours as much as I do mine!

Craig

C'mon, man! Mine were delivered to my driveway. I put 'em on a handtruck and wheeled 'em around back, down a hill and into the basement. I unpacked 'em, and placed 'em, all by myself. They're heavy, yeah, ya just need to learn how to use leverage!

Man up!

:D:D:D

j/k of course. These suckers are heavy and big/awkward. The more help you can get to lug them around the better.

I'm sure you'll enjoy yours as much as I do mine!

Craig

You forgot to mention that you also strapped em on your back and had to walk 5miles.... in the snow...with no shoes;).

C'mon, man! Mine were delivered to my driveway. I put 'em on a handtruck and wheeled 'em around back, down a hill and into the basement. I unpacked 'em, and placed 'em, all by myself. They're heavy, yeah, ya just need to learn how to use leverage!

Man up!

Well, Craig, I did talk the UPS guy into helping me carry it up the entry stairs to our front door. Then I manhandled it down a hall (which fortunately has a rug runner) into the back BR/now HT. Again have some oriental rugs, so not hard to shove it around. All by myself (tipped the boxed on its side to open and slide it out); not bad for a 68 yr old.

You forgot to mention that you also strapped em on your back and had to walk 5miles.... in the snow...with no shoes;).
Up hill... BOTH WAYS!!! :D:D:D

Up hill... BOTH WAYS!!! :D:D:D

lol, knew I forgot something:p.

I have no choice but to tackle these beasts on my own. I am going to have to man handle 3 catalysts, 4 sparks and 2 SubMersives. I am thinking doing it in stages, so hopefully I will be finnished moving them a month after they arrive!!!!!!:p

Well I didn't have much time last night but I still managed to squeeze in hooking up my Submersive and watched one movie(Jumper). I haven't started pushing it around yet, just placed it where my old sub was but wow do these things PUMP! My HT is even set up in a solid concrete, well insulated basement and I can clearly see I'm still gonna have to be careful not to bump out my neighbours and have the police show up at my door.

This weekend I'll be making some quality Submersive time lol.

I have no choice but to tackle these beasts on my own. I am going to have to man handle 3 catalysts, 4 sparks and 2 SubMersives. I am thinking doing it in stages, so hopefully I will be finnished moving them a month after they arrive!!!!!!:p

I hope you don't have to many steps. Stages is a good idea. As long as you have everything just do it a bit a time. Maybe set the two Catalysts up. Then setup the 2 sparks and one sub and run a phantom center. That leaves the center cat, 2 sparks and one sub. The rest should be able to go in without much of a problem. Just a thought :). Can't wait to hear what you think of them.

I hope you don't have to many steps. Stages is a good idea. As long as you have everything just do it a bit a time. Maybe set the two Catalysts up. Then setup the 2 sparks and one sub and run a phantom center. That leaves the center cat, 2 sparks and one sub. The rest should be able to go in without much of a problem. Just a thought :). Can't wait to hear what you think of them.
No need to worry about running a phantom center and such, b/c I still have yet to build the room. Once I get the speakers I am going to finish off the layout and get started on the build. I am looking at about a month to get every thing sorted and installed and a further two months to complete the build.:) That will include getting the room treated.

No need to worry about running a phantom center and such, b/c I still have yet to build the room. Once I get the speakers I am going to finish off the layout and get started on the build. I am looking at about a month to get every thing sorted and installed and a further two months to complete the build.:) That will include getting the room treated.

Sounds like a plan. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this setup. You will have 9200 watts of clean power to play with:eek:. Just be careful:p.

Managed to squeeze in another movie last night(Inglourious Basterds). Not a whole lot of bass but the couple gunfights that come up sure had some punch to them. I'm seriously considering maybe talking to my neighbours asking them to call me if things are too loud. This thing seriously shakes my whole house and would prefer to get a phone call from them rather then police showing up at my front door... looks like I might have to move to a farm soon lol j/k.

A two acre suburban house in a nearby town will be sufficient. :)

Managed to squeeze in another movie last night(Inglourious Basterds). Not a whole lot of bass but the couple gunfights that come up sure had some punch to them. I'm seriously considering maybe talking to my neighbours asking them to call me if things are too loud. This thing seriously shakes my whole house and would prefer to get a phone call from them rather then police showing up at my front door... looks like I might have to move to a farm soon lol j/k.

You aren't too far off. I've watched a few segments of movies (Iron Man, Watchmen) and a few TV shows and a few cds, and I don't think I can run this beast at even a 1/4 of its ability (probably much less than that even). My closest neighbor's house is 150 ft away, but he heard it easily monday night... After him the next closest house is about 500ft away.

To say the least - I'm very impressed. Bass has never had such a full sound, or the depth that I'm hearing and feeling. A more detailed review will follow after some more listening, but for now - this thing is just awesome.

If your closest neighbor is 150 feet away and can hear your theater, I am in deep ka-ka. While my theater is in the basement, I am only about 30 feet from his home and I have 4 SubMersives. Fortunately, he is a renter so what can he do. :p

I may have to crank it up and go outside and find out what my neighbors are hearing. Or maybe I won't since I've heard that ignorance is bliss.

If your closest neighbor is 150 feet away and can hear your theater, I am in deep ka-ka. While my theater is in the basement, I am only about 30 feet from his home and I have 4 SubMersives. Fortunately, he is a renter so what can he do. :p

I may have to crank it up and go outside and find out what my neighbors are hearing. Or maybe I won't since I've heard that ignorance is bliss.

LOL, poor guy! Or he could consider himself lucky and synchronize any movie you watch and he could get all his bass for free... :p

would a dual drive HSU ULS-15 be as good as a single submersive?

I installed an Hsu Dual Drive system recently for a friend. I have dual Submersives in my own HT. I can't compare a single Submersive to Dual Drive Hsu's, but my "gut" is this:

The Dual Drive system will have similar output, extension and sound quality to a single Submersive. It will have the advantage of being able to place two subs within the room for better FR. It will have the disadvantage of having to place two subs within the room. Pick your poison. I doubt you could go wrong with either choice.

It's *nice* to have choices. :)

Craig

thanks a lot, i appreciate the response.

would a dual drive HSU ULS-15 be as good as a single submersive?

I use Dual SubMersives and an HSU ULS-15 QuadDrive System in my HT. I use an SVS-EQ1 for correction.

The dual SubMersives are up front and a co-located pair of ULS-15's are placed along each rear side wall.

I haven't done a direct comparison but agree with craig john.

John

I use Dual SubMersives and an HSU ULS-15 QuadDrive System in my HT. I use an SVS-EQ1 for correction.

The dual SubMersives are up front and a co-located pair of ULS-15's are placed along each rear side wall.

I haven't done a direct comparison but agree with craig john.

John

How do you find the different subs? Does this cause any problems?

I use Dual SubMersives and an HSU ULS-15 QuadDrive System in my HT.

You use SIX (6) subs in your room which is eight (8) 15 inch drivers! I thought I was one of the few loonies who did that (4 SubMersives). How large is your room?

You use SIX (6) subs in your room which is eight (8) 15 inch drivers! I thought I was one of the few loonies who did that (4 SubMersives). How large is your room?

If you click on the link "Theater for one" it says the room size is
13' 10" W x 21' 7" L x 8' 6" H
It looks like it is just under 2200cf. That is a lot of woof:eek: for a space that size.

Originally Posted by John H
I use Dual SubMersives and an HSU ULS-15 QuadDrive System in my HT.

It looks like it is just under 2200cf. That is a lot of woof:eek: for a space that size.

Holy smokes! That must be insane! My room is ~2700cf with some openings and I only have one SubMersive. Last night I was watching the new Star Trek on blu-ray and the bass was so nuts that I came close to going into my Onkyo and lowering it a few db. I cannot even imagine how insane it could get for John in 2200cf if he had all those subs dialed in properly. :p:D

Though it would be alot of fun to have so much bass to play with once in awhile! :p

How do you find the different subs? Does this cause any problems?

It works out well using the AS-EQ1

You use SIX (6) subs in your room which is eight (8) 15 inch drivers! I thought I was one of the few loonies who did that (4 SubMersives). How large is your room?

2537 cf (sealed)

John

It works out well using the AS-EQ1



2537 cf (sealed)

John

That is a lot of woof per square foot. I watched TF2 last night and the bass in my room was pretty intense. Given that you have the same number of drivers (not exactly apples to apples but close) in 65% of the space I do, I can not even imagine what your bass must sound like. Maybe I need to order 4 more SubMerisves --- NOT!

Does anyone here with 2+ SubMersives have them stacked on top of each other? I am entertaining the thought of adding an additional SubMersive, thanks to John H ^^. Though I kinda doubt that stacking them would be the best thing to do. Mark, id kinda like to hear your thoughts on the best way to make use of dual subwoofers. The addition of one more SubMersive in my room would definitely bring some insanity to the table. :p

That is a lot of woof per square foot. I watched TF2 last night and the bass in my room was pretty intense. Given that you have the same number of drivers (not exactly apples to apples but close) in 65% of the space I do, I can not even imagine what your bass must sound like. Maybe I need to order 4 more SubMerisves --- NOT!

That sounds like a new subwoofer metric!:D

Mike

Does anyone here with 2+ SubMersives have them stacked on top of each other? I am entertaining the thought of adding an additional SubMersive, thanks to John H ^^. Though I kinda doubt that stacking them would be the best thing to do. Mark, id kinda like to hear your thoughts on the best way to make use of dual subwoofers. The addition of one more SubMersive in my room would definitely bring some insanity to the table. :p

Depends on your objectives. If you are looking to maximize output, them stacking is the way to go. If you are looking to optimize frequency response, then not stacking is the way to go. If you want to really bring insanity to the table, then buy enough subs so that you can stack AND place for optimized FR.

Assuming John H has *calibrated* his system correctly, (and I'm sure he has), his bass should not be anymore "insane" than anyone else's with a calibrated system. He will just have lots more headroom, and his subs, (individually), will each be reproducing at a much lower level than if he had fewer subs, (which means they'll have much lower distortion.) So, unless he sets his subs really "hot", (which would mean he's no longer calibrated correctly), he won't have any more "insane" levels of bass than our 1 or 2 subs systems, (assuming we've all calibrated correctly.)

His speakers will be the limiting factor as to how loud the *system* plays. He has Klipsch RF-83's which are no slouch in terms of output. However, I'm sure they don't have anywhere close to the maximum output capability of his combined 6-subwoofer system. However, he'll never see/hear the maximum output capability of his subs, (unless he throws out his calibration and sets the subs *very* hot.)

Craig

See my above post. ^

Does anyone here with 2+ SubMersives have them stacked on top of each other? I am entertaining the thought of adding an additional SubMersive, thanks to John H ^^. Though I kinda doubt that stacking them would be the best thing to do. Mark, id kinda like to hear your thoughts on the best way to make use of dual subwoofers. The addition of one more SubMersive in my room would definitely bring some insanity to the table. :p

What speakers do you have? If you've already exceeded the SPL capability of your speakers with your single Submersives, then more output won't be a huge benefit. Therefore, placing them separately, for improved frequency response would be your best bet.

Craig

See my above post. ^



What speakers do you have? If you've already exceeded the SPL capability of your speakers with your single Submersives, then more output won't be a huge benefit. Therefore, placing them separately, for improved frequency response would be your best bet.

Craig

You bring up a good point, my speakers are av123 ELT525s and they are at about their ends with a single SubMersive. I got kinda lucky as far as placement goes. I am pretty confident my SubMersive is set up pretty much perfectly. Of course I do have some help, an Anti-Mode 8033.

I have a feeling that another SubMersive would not do a whole lot for me. I am really quite happy with everything right now, I need to stop reading this thread because it does not take a whole lot to spark up a gear purchase being the home theater junkie that I have become. :D

Assuming John H has *calibrated* his system correctly, (and I'm sure he has), his bass should not be anymore "insane" than anyone else's with a calibrated system. He will just have lots more headroom, and his subs, (individually), will each be reproducing at a much lower level than if he had fewer subs, (which means they'll have much lower distortion.) So, unless he sets his subs really "hot", (which would mean he's no longer calibrated correctly), he won't have any more "insane" levels of bass than our 1 or 2 subs systems, (assuming we've all calibrated correctly.)

His speakers will be the limiting factor as to how loud the *system* plays. He has Klipsch RF-83's which are no slouch in terms of output. However, I'm sure they don't have anywhere close to the maximum output capability of his combined 6-subwoofer system. However, he'll never see/hear the maximum output capability of his subs, (unless he throws out his calibration and sets the subs *very* hot.)

Craig

See my above post. ^



What speakers do you have? If you've already exceeded the SPL capability of your speakers with your single Submersives, then more output won't be a huge benefit. Therefore, placing them separately, for improved frequency response would be your best bet.

Craig
Craig -

Good points.

I was wondering.
If I have a sub with "flat" output characteristics (see PDF with Audyssey MultEQxt Pro kit before and after), then will adding more subs or different subs provide much benefit?
And how?

I suspect there might be less THD or other features, but I'm curious to hear any comments.

My gear is in signature link, but sub is SVS PB12-Ultra/2.

Mike

PS - the "trim -12" indicates I still have a lot of headroom to go (amp gain ~half way)

Craig -

Good points.

I was wondering.
If I have a sub with "flat" output characteristics (see PDF with Audyssey MultEQxt Pro kit before and after), then will adding more subs or different subs provide much benefit?
And how?

I suspect there might be less THD or other features, but I'm curious to hear any comments.

My gear is in signature link, but sub is SVS PB12-Ultra/2.

Mike

PS - the "trim -12" indicates I still have a lot of headroom to go (amp gain ~half way)

Hi Mike,

This is a very interesting question, and it deserves it's own thread. Why don't you start one, and we'll discuss it there. :)

Craig

PS. I grew up in SE WI... in a suburb of Milwaukee. :)

Assuming John H has *calibrated* his system correctly, (and I'm sure he has), his bass should not be anymore "insane" than anyone else's with a calibrated system. He will just have lots more headroom, and his subs, (individually), will each be reproducing at a much lower level than if he had fewer subs, (which means they'll have much lower distortion.) So, unless he sets his subs really "hot", (which would mean he's no longer calibrated correctly), he won't have any more "insane" levels of bass than our 1 or 2 subs systems, (assuming we've all calibrated correctly.)

His speakers will be the limiting factor as to how loud the *system* plays. He has Klipsch RF-83's which are no slouch in terms of output. However, I'm sure they don't have anywhere close to the maximum output capability of his combined 6-subwoofer system. However, he'll never see/hear the maximum output capability of his subs, (unless he throws out his calibration and sets the subs *very* hot.)

Craig


Craig,

Along with the increased headroom would one be able to produce more low end output? Obviously not more extension but what about low end output?

Thanks,
John

Craig,

Along with the increased headroom would one be able to produce more low end output? Obviously not more extension but what about low end output?

Thanks,
John
You could do that with EQ. Don't raise the average level of the subs. Just bump the bottom end. I don't think your AS-EQ1 will allow that. Nor does my Audyssey MultEQ XT. I use an SMS-1 for that. I bump the 15 Hz output by 3 dB. :)

With your system, you have so much headroom that you could use a parametric EQ to adjust the deep bass to your liking. All your subs are certainly capable of deep extension. Have you ever measured the response in your room? I don't remember ever seeing you post it. Here is mine, (with the 3 dB boost at 15 Hz):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=158781&stc=1&d=1258762853

Craig

Edit: I don't have any idea how you would integrate a parametric EQ into a system with an AS-EQ1. Probably the best bet would be an Audyssey Pro calibration. You can adjust the target curve with Audyssey Pro.

Hi Mike,

This is a very interesting question, and it deserves it's own thread. Why don't you start one, and we'll discuss it there. :)

Craig

PS. I grew up in SE WI... in a suburb of Milwaukee. :)
Craig -

Good idea.
Here is the new thread -LINK (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17576367#post17576367).


Mike

The submersive has been disconnected for a month while I was traveling. I just hooked it back up last night and noticed that I get a steady hum when connecting the xlr-coax adapter to the sub. It persists even when I connect it to the receiver. When I disc the coax from the receiver the hum just remains...the only connection is the xlr-coax adapter connected. I figured there might be a loose connection as I was trying to make sure the adapter was seated correctly. What I noticed as well is if I grab the xlr connection into the sub with my index finger and thumb that the hum goes away.

Please help or advise.

The submersive has been disconnected for a month while I was traveling. I just hooked it back up last night and noticed that I get a steady hum when connecting the xlr-coax adapter to the sub. It persists even when I connect it to the receiver. When I disc the coax from the receiver the hum just remains...the only connection is the xlr-coax adapter connected. I figured there might be a loose connection as I was trying to make sure the adapter was seated correctly. What I noticed as well is if I grab the xlr connection into the sub with my index finger and thumb that the hum goes away.

Please help or advise.

Double check all of the connections by taking off and reinserting, including the power corder. If hum still persists then I recommend getting a good extension cord WITH A GROUND and trying another outlet in your house.

Mark or someone else who knows this, what is the approximate overall linear driver displacement on the SubMersive in cm^3?

where can these be seen at? I tried their site, but nothing seems to be up on it?

where can these be seen at? I tried their site, but nothing seems to be up on it?
Well, there is that trickily named thread "The SubMersive (http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=1945927)" that has pictures...
Link (http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=1945927)

...and..."Product Listing, Availability, Status and Pricing (http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3364736)"

SubMersive Subwoofer (http://forums.seaton-sound-forum.com/tool/post/seatonsound/vpost?id=1945927#1) - (available to ship within 1-3 weeks depending on finish- see below)


DSP Controlled (manufacturer only) 1000W ICEpower amplifier
Dual 15" sealed subwoofer.
$1,995 + shipping (typ. $115-135 shiping cost)
$1,895 each + shipping for multiples or for current SubMersive owners.
NEW real wood veneer options with magnetic grills (http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3597632#1)
Black oak finish (http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3562105#1) - +$100 (within 1 week!)
Golden Cherry + $300 (2-3 weeks)
Red cherry or espresso stained cherry (http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3597632#1) + $300 (Red: 2-3 weeks, Espresso: 1 week)
...and...

"Red cherry and espresso stained cherry SubMersives - Natural Cherry too!" (http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3597632#1)



Mike

thanks Mike...I don't know what I was looking at..I saw the graph, but did not scroll down to see the pics:confused:

Well, there is that trickily named thread "The SubMersive (http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=1945927)" that has pictures...
Link (http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=1945927) <Snip>
Mike

Don't you find it interesting that the picts part sends you back to the 1st post on this thread, the SubMersives that I now own?

Carl

james...thanks for the suggestions; however, none of those fix/resolved the humming...every time i hook up the xlr-coax adapter..the hum starts...do these tend to go bad this quickly? Mark, any idea what the cause may be? At this point, the sub isn't even connected to any source...just hummin when i connect the xlr-coax adapter cable only

james...thanks for the suggestions; however, none of those fix/resolved the humming...every time i hook up the xlr-coax adapter..the hum starts...do these tend to go bad this quickly? Mark, any idea what the cause may be? At this point, the sub isn't even connected to any source...just hummin when i connect the xlr-coax adapter cable only

Check out the Hum FAQ:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=322698

craig...thanks for the suggestion! i grew up in lancaster...i've removed everything from the sub...except the power...it doesn't hum w/ just the power connected...now, if i connect the xlr-coax adapter...it starts hummin right away

any other suggestions?

Try disconnecting the Cable TV.

Craig

craig, the sub is not connected to anything...no tv, amps, or receiver. it is only connected to the power wire and when i connect the xlr-coax adapt...it starts humming

craig, the sub is not connected to anything...no tv, amps, or receiver. it is only connected to the power wire and when i connect the xlr-coax adapt...it starts humming

Since Mark is MIA at the moment.......

if this is the xlr-rca that mark supplied, you might want to open it up and take a look at it. off the top of my head I cant tell you exactly which pin it is but I believe he cuts the connection to one of the pins on the xlr end. It is pretty easy to open those up and take a look. my guess is that it might have some how moved and is making a connection again. Why I dont know but it might have.

james...thanks for the suggestions; however, none of those fix/resolved the humming...every time i hook up the xlr-coax adapter..the hum starts...do these tend to go bad this quickly? Mark, any idea what the cause may be? At this point, the sub isn't even connected to any source...just hummin when i connect the xlr-coax adapter cable only

Give Mark a call, he will be able to diagnose whatever you have going on.

sounds like a bad adapter - why not replace it?

Actually, my SubMersive would hum too when I connected the XLR -> RCA adapter to the SubMersive only but the hum would go away as soon as I connected the other end to the RCA cable coming from the A/V receiver.

Actually, my SubMersive would hum too when I connected the XLR -> RCA adapter to the SubMersive only but the hum would go away as soon as I connected the other end to the RCA cable coming from the A/V receiver.
Same thing here. Have had no problems at all. Excellent sub(s).

Just sent Mark an email for a Submersive!! I've been living with a 5.0 system for the last 5 or so months so I can only imagine how great the Submersive will sound!!! Oh, and the only sub I've heard is my Logitech Z5500 crappy subwoofer so I can't really comprehend what the Submersive will sound like.

Just sent Mark an email for a Submersive!! I've been living with a 5.0 system for the last 5 or so months so I can only imagine how great the Submersive will sound!!! Oh, and the only sub I've heard is my Logitech Z5500 crappy subwoofer so I can't really comprehend what the Submersive will sound like.

Be careful not to mess yourself!

Be careful not to mess yourself!

Mark should include a couple Depends with every purchase:p

I just got my Submersive Tuesday. I watched my first Blu-Ray earlier tonight(Star Trek). Coming from a B&W 800ASW I had no idea what I was missing. This thing is great. I may buy another one in the near future. I worry about disturbing my next door neighbors now. You can really feel the sound from this sub even when you can't hear it(I love that).

I just got my Submersive Tuesday. I watched my first Blu-Ray earlier tonight(Star Trek). Coming from a B&W 800ASW I had no idea what I was missing. This thing is great. I may buy another one in the near future. I worry about disturbing my next door neighbors now. You can really feel the sound from this sub even when you can't hear it(I love that).

congrats dude. just in time for the holidays :cool:

Mark should include a couple Depends with every purchase:pOnly if he includes a warning about not using them to drive cross country to see your star crossed lover. :D

Anyone have any picks of the Golden Cherry? I see all the other finishes including Natural.

Anyone have any picks of the Golden Cherry? I see all the other finishes including Natural.

I expect to have pictures of some golden cherry SubMersives later next week.

Hope everyone had happy Thanksgiving,

I expect to have pictures of some golden cherry SubMersives later next week.

Thanks Mark.

As of Wednesday evening 6 PM, I am a proud owner of of Red Cherry Submersive ! There is this great feeling of excitement, achievement and belonging (to the big boys club).
I was shocked to see the monstrous shipment sitting in my garage. I am a bedroom DJ and I received my PA subwoofer the previous week and thought that was huge ..and this package was almost twice the size of the other one. I thought to myself, there is no way that I can fit that monster in my den. Fortunately, once I dragged the package to my den and carefully pulled out the sub from its intelligent packaging, the size of the sub ... still huge ..seemed more manageable ...and the red cherry simply looked gorgeous and very high end.
I have been a HT enthusiast for the past 10 years but haven't had any experience with the real subs until now. I was very happy and content with my Polk Satellite-Sub system from 2002 (Polk RM 7600 Satellites and PSW-650) until I started reading about these super subs about 3 years ago.
I haven't done any calibration yet (and I am pretty clueless about how to do it) but I can tell that this sub is about 4 times as powerful as my Polk (which interestingly enough was the best sub that I had heard at anybody's home) and at reference volume on my receiver with the subwoofer level on the Denon AVR-5803 at -9.5 DB and the Submersive at the lowest volume (I believe 0), every plank of my 3000 sq feet home was shaking (and the room directly above the sub ... the master bedroom ...was literally bouncing) and I truly feared collateral damage.
That said, I feel I have barely scratched the surface of what the sub has to offer. I haven't watched any of the benchmark movies yet. All I have tried out so far are some Indian Music Videos (which have their fair share of bass) and a few hip hop videos. In spite of the massive increase in volume as compared to my previous setup , I haven't been completely vowed by the overall audio experience yet. I know it will take me a long while to setup my system properly but I would really appreciate your help to get started on the right track. I have bought the analog SPL meter from RS and I have the 5.1 Tool kit that Mark sent with the sub.
Since no instructions came with the sub, I have a couple of silly questions:
1) The green LED is ON at all times even with no signal going to the sub .. is that normal ?
2) What is the function of the "PGM Sel" and "Ch1" buttons.

I seldom post to forums so please pardon me ... if I rambled on without writing anything meaningful.
In case you are wondering about my equipment, this what I have currently (might upgrade a few things over the next 6-9 months):
Denon AVR5803 (Top of the line from 8 years ago !)
Polk RM7600 (6 Satellites & 1 Center)
Seaton Submersive
Sony DVD Player (No Blue Ray Yet)
Toshiba 50" 1080i Projection TV

My HT Room / Den:
35' X 18' X 9' with a 7X9 opening to 16000 cu ft living room with cathedral ceiling.

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.

Raj:
I'll answer what I can.

First, 0 is the highest volume on the Submersive. So you are already maxed out. I would turn it down to about 10 :).

1)Yes, the green lite simply indicates that the sub is turned on and ready to rock. The upper green lite flashes when there is a signal to the sub.
2)Not sure what these do but they must be in the depressed position when the sub is turned on. If one of them is not depressed (can't remember which one offhand) the sub will not play. Took me awhile to find this out yesterday!

Here is what I suggest:

Download Room EQ wizard (REW) from Home Theater Shack. It's FREE and it's GREAT. If I can learn to use it anyone can! If you don't have a sound card in your computer you can get a Creative Soundblaster Live 24 bit for $20 on Ebay.

Get a Behringer ECM8000 mic, $50 at Musicians Friend and I am sure many other places. You will need a preamp for it (I use a Mackie 1402 because I had one from my video business). It is much more accurate than the RS especially at low frequencies. Use the RS meter for setting initial calibration level.

Get a Behringer Feedback Destroyer (BFD) to use as a Parametric EQ. $100 from Musicians Friend. Dollar for Dollar I think this is the best piece of electronic equipment that I have ever bought.

I won't get into how to use all this. Just go to Home Theater Shack and there are detailed instuctions for getting started. It can seem daunting at first but it is well worth the time, plus to me it's just plain fun.

Hope this helps,
Moto

2) What is the function of the "PGM Sel" and "Ch1" buttons.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17126626#post17126626

I expect to have pictures of some golden cherry SubMersives later next week.

Hope everyone had happy Thanksgiving,

Hi Mark,

What finishes are available for the submersive? Can you provide a series of photos from all sides (including the back) with the various finishes?

Thanks.

As of Wednesday evening 6 PM, I am a proud owner of of Red Cherry Submersive ! There is this great feeling of excitement, achievement and belonging (to the big boys club).
I was shocked to see the monstrous shipment sitting in my garage. I am a bedroom DJ and I received my PA subwoofer the previous week and thought that was huge ..and this package was almost twice the size of the other one. I thought to myself, there is no way that I can fit that monster in my den. Fortunately, once I dragged the package to my den and carefully pulled out the sub from its intelligent packaging, the size of the sub ... still huge ..seemed more manageable ...and the red cherry simply looked gorgeous and very high end.
I have been a HT enthusiast for the past 10 years but haven't had any experience with the real subs until now. I was very happy and content with my Polk Satellite-Sub system from 2002 (Polk RM 7600 Satellites and PSW-650) until I started reading about these super subs about 3 years ago.
You will need to be very careful with the master volume control on your system. Your sub is *much* more capable than your speakers. If you try to fully exercise your sub, you could easily blow your speakers and/or amps. Just be careful!

I haven't done any calibration yet (and I am pretty clueless about how to do it) but I can tell that this sub is about 4 times as powerful as my Polk (which interestingly enough was the best sub that I had heard at anybody's home) and at reference volume on my receiver with the subwoofer level on the Denon AVR-5803 at -9.5 DB and the Submersive at the lowest volume (I believe 0), every plank of my 3000 sq feet home was shaking (and the room directly above the sub ... the master bedroom ...was literally bouncing) and I truly feared collateral damage.
That said, I feel I have barely scratched the surface of what the sub has to offer. I haven't watched any of the benchmark movies yet. All I have tried out so far are some Indian Music Videos (which have their fair share of bass) and a few hip hop videos. In spite of the massive increase in volume as compared to my previous setup , I haven't been completely vowed by the overall audio experience yet. I know it will take me a long while to setup my system properly but I would really appreciate your help to get started on the right track. I have bought the analog SPL meter from RS and I have the 5.1 Tool kit that Mark sent with the sub.
Instructions for the Audio Toolkit:
http://www.gold-line.com/51atdvd.htm
(Click on "Test DVD Tutorial")

My HT Room / Den:
35' X 18' X 9' with a 7X9
That's a 5,670 cubic ft. "den"??? :eek: In a room that big, I suggest you consider a second Submersive, (and a speaker upgrade.) :)

...opening to 16000 cu ft living room with cathedral ceiling.
That's like 40' x 40' x 10'. That's a dance hall, not a living room! :eek: You must have a *huge* house. :)


Craig

Hi Mark,

What finishes are available for the submersive? Can you provide a series of photos from all sides (including the back) with the various finishes?

Thanks.

here are pictures of the finishes available

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3597632#1

Mark mentioned he has pictures of the golden cherry finish coming later next week and if you look around on the forum you can find the standard black finish as well

Hopefully be listening to my new system this time next weekend and can post some feedback
My 2 subMersives currently in transit – got some major upgrades on route
First projector JVC RS 25, 125” 2.35 screen, Integra 80.1 and Oppo blu ray

As of Wednesday evening 6 PM, I am a proud owner of of Red Cherry Submersive ! There is this great feeling of excitement, achievement and belonging (to the big boys club).
I was shocked to see the monstrous shipment sitting in my garage. I am a bedroom DJ and I received my PA subwoofer the previous week and thought that was huge ..and this package was almost twice the size of the other one. I thought to myself, there is no way that I can fit that monster in my den. Fortunately, once I dragged the package to my den and carefully pulled out the sub from its intelligent packaging, the size of the sub ... still huge ..seemed more manageable ...and the red cherry simply looked gorgeous and very high end.
I have been a HT enthusiast for the past 10 years but haven't had any experience with the real subs until now. I was very happy and content with my Polk Satellite-Sub system from 2002 (Polk RM 7600 Satellites and PSW-650) until I started reading about these super subs about 3 years ago.
I haven't done any calibration yet (and I am pretty clueless about how to do it) but I can tell that this sub is about 4 times as powerful as my Polk (which interestingly enough was the best sub that I had heard at anybody's home) and at reference volume on my receiver with the subwoofer level on the Denon AVR-5803 at -9.5 DB and the Submersive at the lowest volume (I believe 0), every plank of my 3000 sq feet home was shaking (and the room directly above the sub ... the master bedroom ...was literally bouncing) and I truly feared collateral damage.
That said, I feel I have barely scratched the surface of what the sub has to offer. I haven't watched any of the benchmark movies yet. All I have tried out so far are some Indian Music Videos (which have their fair share of bass) and a few hip hop videos. In spite of the massive increase in volume as compared to my previous setup , I haven't been completely vowed by the overall audio experience yet. I know it will take me a long while to setup my system properly but I would really appreciate your help to get started on the right track. I have bought the analog SPL meter from RS and I have the 5.1 Tool kit that Mark sent with the sub.
Since no instructions came with the sub, I have a couple of silly questions:
1) The green LED is ON at all times even with no signal going to the sub .. is that normal ?
2) What is the function of the "PGM Sel" and "Ch1" buttons.

I seldom post to forums so please pardon me ... if I rambled on without writing anything meaningful.
In case you are wondering about my equipment, this what I have currently (might upgrade a few things over the next 6-9 months):
Denon AVR5803 (Top of the line from 8 years ago !)
Polk RM7600 (6 Satellites & 1 Center)
Seaton Submersive
Sony DVD Player (No Blue Ray Yet)
Toshiba 50" 1080i Projection TV

My HT Room / Den:
35' X 18' X 9' with a 7X9 opening to 16000 cu ft living room with cathedral ceiling.

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.



Ummm .. what do you do , and how do you do it....

I am looking for advice.

How would a Seaton Submersive match up with two Paradigm Signature Sub 25's?

I am thinking of adding a Seaton Submersive to my HT. I have found a location for the Submersive as an end table between two sofas that are at a 90 degree angle to each other. I am working on wife acceptance. I am trying to convince her of the logic here; the sub will have a dual purpose as a necessary piece of furniture that also happens to be a subwoofer. I think I am making some progress. With the new Submersive fnishes, she may agree to expresso.

The two Sub 25's are located in the right in left front corners of the room, in tight spaces. The submersive would be placed toward the back of the room, about 14' and 18' feet from the Sub 25's respectively. There is an oversized doorway adjacent to where the submersive would be placed.

How tough would it be to properly integrate the Submersive wiith the Sub 25's? Would there be any difficulty with frequency management and/or phase control management? I have used Paradigm's Perfect Base Kit for Sub 25 EQ. All speakers are cut off at 80Hz. All frequency below 80Hz and LFE are directed to the subs.

Although I often use my system for music (stereo only), I use the subs only
for HT.

The other sub I am considering as a third sub/end table is the new Paradigm Signature Sub 2. The Sub 2 might be a better sonic match with the Sub 25's. Also, I could use the Paradigm's Perfect Base Kit for Sub 2. But, as a piece of furniture, the Submersive with one of the new upgraded finishes would probably be a better fit for this space.

Thanks!

The other sub I am considering as a third sub/end table is the new Paradigm Signature Sub 2. The Sub 2 might be a better sonic match with the Sub 25's. Also, I could use the Paradigm's Perfect Base Kit for Sub 2. But, as a piece of furniture, the Submersive with one of the new upgraded finishes would probably be a better fit for this space.

Thanks!
The Sub2 is $7,500. For that kind of money, you could sell your Sig 25's and the PBK-1, and get 4 Submersives and an SVS AS-EQ1. That's what I would do. (The PBK-1 can only be used with PBK-1 capable Paradigm subs, so it would be rendered effectively useless if you add a non-Paradigm sub. There is not much point in EQ'ing two subs if you add a third, dissimilar sub, and place it asymmetrically to the LP and the other 2.)
Edit: Also, the Sub2 is a triangular sub. It would be awkward to use as an "endtable" in the corner between two sofas.

If you want to add a Submersive to your existing system, you have some work to do. Mixing dissimilar subs can be tricky, especially with asymmetrical placements. You would definitely need some type of measurement and EQ capability. We talked about this in another thread, and I don't believe you have any measurement/EQ system other than the PBK-1, correct? Can you hire someone to optimize the setup for you? Or, can you acquire some measurement/EQ capability yourself, and learn how to use it? (I linked to an easy to acquire and learn system in the other thread.)

Craig

Craig, Moto & Picasso Moon ... thanks for your prompt and knowledgeable advice. I will follow your suggestions over the next few weeks (except for adding another Submersive ...and upgrading the speakers ... those will have to wait a longggggggggg while).
Craig: I am fortunate enough to have a decent size home (3000 sq feet) but I have no dance hall ! My home has a very open floor plan where (other than the bedrooms and bathrooms) almost everything opens into everything else ..so that is great for a spacious feeling but I guess itsn't very bass friendly. The kitchen and den together are 5700 Cu Ft. The living room is 45' L X 30' W (at the widest point) and the ceiling is about 20". I live in Orange County, CA so as you can imagine ... I am on the verge of bankrupty at the begining of each month when the mortgage auto deducts from my bank account ... buying 1 submersive was a strain ... buying a second one ... hmmm ... let's not go there !
Hope you all had an enjoyable Thanks Giving weekend. Thank you.

The Sub2 is $7,500. For that kind of money, you could sell your Sig 25's and the PBK-1, and get 4 Submersives and an SVS AS-EQ1. That's what I would do. (The PBK-1 can only be used with PBK-1 capable Paradigm subs, so it would be rendered effectively useless if you add a non-Paradigm sub. There is not much point in EQ'ing two subs if you add a third, dissimilar sub, and place it asymmetrically to the LP and the other 2.)
Edit: Also, the Sub2 is a triangular sub. It would be awkward to use as an "endtable" in the corner between two sofas.

If you want to add a Submersive to your existing system, you have some work to do. Mixing dissimilar subs can be tricky, especially with asymmetrical placements. You would definitely need some type of measurement and EQ capability. We talked about this in another thread, and I don't believe you have any measurement/EQ system other than the PBK-1, correct? Can you hire someone to optimize the setup for you? Or, can you acquire some measurement/EQ capability yourself, and learn how to use it? (I linked to an easy to acquire and learn system in the other thread.)

Craig

Hi CRAIG,

I would love to do four submersives, but it just won't fit in the room.

I don't think I can fit the submersive in the corners where the Sub 25's are located, the Submersive is too wide. I can't go wider than 18'"/19" or deeper than 23". Sub 25 barely fits, it's about as large as I can go at those sites. I might, with difficulty, place Submersives in the corners if I place them so one woofer is facing forward and the other woofer is firing directly into the front wall one or two inches away. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's a good idea to have the Submersive woofer an inch or two from the wall. There is only one other space in the entire room where I can place a sub; between the two sofas as described in my previous post.

I agree that the submersive would fit the site between the sofas better. I am aware of the cost of Sub 2 and the Submersive. I like the Sub 25, it is a terrific sub. I think it is probably the best performing sub I can get into the corners.

It sounds like adding a Submersive to my set up would be too complicated to do it right. I don't really feel like 'jumping through hoops' to make it work. Although a hexagonal shaped end table/sub doesn't fit the space as well as the Submersive, I think it could work (from a space perspective; this is a wife approval issue as far as I'm concerned).

How tough do you think it would be to integrate Sub 2 with the PBK equalizer with my set up? Do you think it would be easier than Submersive since Sub 2 is from the same manufacturer as sub25?

Thanks.

Hi CRAIG,

I would love to do four submersives, but it just won't fit in the room.

I don't think I can fit the submersive in the corners where the Sub 25's are located, the Submersive is too wide. I can't go wider than 18'"/19" or deeper than 23". Sub 25 barely fits, it's about as large as I can go at those sites. I might, with difficulty, place Submersives in the corners if I place them so one woofer is facing forward and the other woofer is firing directly into the front wall one or two inches away. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's a good idea to have the Submersive woofer an inch or two from the wall.
One or two inches might be too close, but Mark has stated before in this thread that 3 to 4 inches is OK.

There is only one other space in the entire room where I can place a sub; between the two sofas as described in my previous post.

I agree that the submersive would fit the site between the sofas better. I am aware of the cost of Sub 2 and the Submersive. I like the Sub 25, it is a terrific sub. I think it is probably the best performing sub I can get into the corners.

It sounds like adding a Submersive to my set up would be too complicated to do it right. I don't really feel like 'jumping through hoops' to make it work. Although a hexagonal shaped end table/sub doesn't fit the space as well as the Submersive, I think it could work (from a space perspective; this is a wife approval issue as far as I'm concerned).

How tough do you think it would be to integrate Sub 2 with the PBK equalizer with my set up? Do you think it would be easier than Submersive since Sub 2 is from the same manufacturer as sub25?

Thanks.
I don't know much about the PBK-1. From the meager info on Paradigm's website, it seems it could work to optimize 3 Paradigm subs, but I don't know what it does in the time domain, nor how it adjusts levels and phase for 3 asymmetrically placed subs. Call Paradigm and ask them.

Or, get a Submersive and pay Mark Seaton to make a "house call". That would still be a lot cheaper than a Sub2, and I have no doubt it would turn out at least as good, probably better.

Craig

One or two inches might be too close, but Mark has stated before in this thread that 3 to 4 inches is OK.


I don't know much about the PBK-1. From the meager info on Paradigm's website, it seems it could work to optimize 3 Paradigm subs, but I don't know what it does in the time domain, nor how it adjusts levels and phase for 3 asymmetrically placed subs. Call Paradigm and ask them.

Or, get a Submersive and pay Mark Seaton to make a "house call". That would still be a lot cheaper than a Sub2, and I have no doubt it would turn out at least as good, probably better.

Craig

Thanks Craig.

I have called Paradigm customer support/tech in the past regarding the latency issue and phase management of Sub 25 using PBK EQ. You and I discussed this previously on a different thread. I always get the same guy, I think his name is Gary. His answers are always very short, quick responses, very unsatisfying. For example: He said there is no latency in SUB 25 when using PBK. The phase should be set at 0 if the sub is facing the same direction as the main speakers. It should be set at 90 if it is along a side wall facing 90 degrees to the main speakers. The sub phase switch should be set at 180 degrees when the sub is placed on a rear wall facing toward the front speakers. Personally, I think this is an overly simplistic, inaccurate way to address phase management. I can't determine if he doesn't know the answer or doesn't want to be bothered. He probably doesn't know since he was unhelpful when I pressed him for explanations. Either way, he is not a 'people person' and does a substandard job representing Paradigm. I will call Paradigm in the next day or two. Gary will answer my questions, but I know when I hang up I won't be confident that I received accurate information.

Very frustrating.

I am reluctant to get into something that is so complicated that I need to bring in Mark Seaton to set it up. It becomes too inconvenient if I need to move equipment in the future. If I can't do it myself, I'm inclined not to do it at all. By the way, do you know where Mark lives?

..... By the way, do you know where Mark lives?

In or near Chicago.

Craig, Moto & Picasso Moon ... thanks for your prompt and knowledgeable advice. I will follow your suggestions over the next few weeks (except for adding another Submersive ...and upgrading the speakers ... those will have to wait a longggggggggg while).
Craig: I am fortunate enough to have a decent size home (3000 sq feet) but I have no dance hall ! My home has a very open floor plan where (other than the bedrooms and bathrooms) almost everything opens into everything else ..so that is great for a spacious feeling but I guess itsn't very bass friendly. The kitchen and den together are 5700 Cu Ft. The living room is 45' L X 30' W (at the widest point) and the ceiling is about 20". I live in Orange County, CA so as you can imagine ... I am on the verge of bankrupty at the begining of each month when the mortgage auto deducts from my bank account ... buying 1 submersive was a strain ... buying a second one ... hmmm ... let's not go there !
Hope you all had an enjoyable Thanks Giving weekend. Thank you.
Hello,
I am new to the "Group", having only attended two meets. The first was a tour of Todd AO Studio. The next one is to be: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17584858&postcount=1177
I have some of Mark's speakers in my temp HT. (My bedroom) If interested, search my posts.

Carl

Do current SubMersives still operate on 120v to 240v?

One or two inches might be too close, but Mark has stated before in this thread that 3 to 4 inches is OK.


I don't know much about the PBK-1. From the meager info on Paradigm's website, it seems it could work to optimize 3 Paradigm subs, but I don't know what it does in the time domain, nor how it adjusts levels and phase for 3 asymmetrically placed subs. Call Paradigm and ask them.

Or, get a Submersive and pay Mark Seaton to make a "house call". That would still be a lot cheaper than a Sub2, and I have no doubt it would turn out at least as good, probably better.

Craig
What is the cost of a "house call"?
(I realize it likely varies by location, but just ballpark...)

Mike

Thanks Craig.
Very frustrating.

I am reluctant to get into something that is so complicated that I need to bring in Mark Seaton to set it up. It becomes too inconvenient if I need to move equipment in the future. If I can't do it myself, I'm inclined not to do it at all. By the way, do you know where Mark lives?

There is nothing complicated about the subs that Mark sells. Typically, when you are buying a submersive (or other Seaton speakers) you are really searching for the high end. As a result to get the best results people purchase EQs to help the sound and in some cases a professional installation/calibration from Mark himself.

I can tell you that with his experience in installing many different speakers and subs in rooms around the country he is very good at extracting the best results.

Hiring Mark to set things up is no more needed then a projector calibration for video. You can use the equipment with good results without the extra help but you may benefit from the professional service.

Matjey, The SubMersive is no more difficlut to setup then any other sub. I think people hire Mark to setup their sub because he is willing to do it. That is a great resource to have. In my case he had to help me. I am physically unable to work on my system so if I could not get Mark here to help me I would not have his sub. The weight is only slightly above what your SUB25 is. If you were able to calbrate that sub, you should fine with the submersive. As for placement, I have mine in the back corner of the room and it is probably less then 6in from grill to the wall and it has worked out fine for me.
I am going to take a stab at this. Maybe I shouldn't but Oh well. IMO people may think they "need" professional help setting up the SubMersive because they see that Mark helps a lot of people in their room on site. But the truth is, Mark is pretty helpful other ways as well. As long as he isn't jet setting all over the place:p you can get a lot of help on his forum.

Do current SubMersives still operate on 120v to 240v?

Hi all,

I just got back in town from a trip to visit family for Thanksgiving (while sneaking away to calibrate KX250F's system :cool: ), and am still catching up with things, but I'll be back to answer more questions later and through the week.

For the above question, Yes. We have SubMersives in or headed to about 15 countries now with various operating Voltages and frequencies. The SubMersive is user switchable on the amplifier for a nominal 115V/230V operation (covers all within 90-240V or more). All that is required is the correct power cord with the Neutrik PowerCON (blue twist locking connector) end. We stock 5 different cords now and supply a suitable power cord for the shipping destination with each SubMersive.

Glad to see you made it home Mark. I don't know about you, but that was one long day.

KX250 - where abouts in VA are you located? I am in Chesterfield county and am looking at ordering up a Sumbersive next week:)

I'm in Harrisonburg.

There is nothing complicated about the subs that Mark sells. Typically, when you are buying a submersive (or other Seaton speakers) you are really searching for the high end. As a result to get the best results people purchase EQs to help the sound and in some cases a professional installation/calibration from Mark himself.

I can tell you that with his experience in installing many different speakers and subs in rooms around the country he is very good at extracting the best results.

Hiring Mark to set things up is no more needed then a projector calibration for video. You can use the equipment with good results without the extra help but you may benefit from the professional service.

Matjey, The SubMersive is no more difficlut to setup then any other sub. I think people hire Mark to setup their sub because he is willing to do it. That is a great resource to have. In my case he had to help me. I am physically unable to work on my system so if I could not get Mark here to help me I would not have his sub. The weight is only slightly above what your SUB25 is. If you were able to calbrate that sub, you should fine with the submersive. As for placement, I have mine in the back corner of the room and it is probably less then 6in from grill to the wall and it has worked out fine for me.
I am going to take a stab at this. Maybe I shouldn't but Oh well. IMO people may think they "need" professional help setting up the SubMersive because they see that Mark helps a lot of people in their room on site. But the truth is, Mark is pretty helpful other ways as well. As long as he isn't jet setting all over the place:p you can get a lot of help on his forum.

In general, I completely agree with you guys. The Submersive is a relatively easy sub to set up. However, if you look back at Post #3170, he is trying to mate a Submersive with a pair of Paradigm Sub 25's, using Paradigm's PBK-1 room EQ, and the subs are all asymmetrically placed. He has no measuring equipment other than an SPL meter. Setting levels, phase and any other settings on the Paradigms, while using the PBK-1 to EQ the two Paradigms, but not the Submersive... well that's complicated. To do it right, he would need some measurement capability more than a simple SPL meter. He doesn't want to go there. Hence why I suggested a visit from Mark, or some other professional.

Craig

OK, Since I missed that, I have to agree with Craig.This might be a complex issue. Mixing two different subs is never easy and now we are talking about a total of three subs in different locations? That would take an effort even with the correct gear. If the SubMersive does end up in the system I would recomend a visit from Mark or some other person who could cablibrate the system. I have one or two names at work. In the end, it would be well worth it. The only other options that would probably make it eaiser to setup multiples like that is get another Paradigm sub or sell the Paradgims and get two submersives. Matjey, my first pick would be Mark hands down for this but if you want another name, PM me.

OK, Since I missed that, I have to agree with Craig.This might be a complex issue. Mixing two different subs is never easy and now we are talking about a total of three subs in different locations? That would take an effort even with the correct gear. If the SubMersive does end up in the system I would recomend a visit from Mark or some other person who could cablibrate the system. I have one or two names at work. In the end, it would be well worth it. The only other options that would probably make it eaiser to setup multiples like that is get another Paradigm sub or sell the Paradgims and get two submersives. Matjey, my first pick would be Mark hands down for this but if you want another name, PM me.

In general, I completely agree with you guys. The Submersive is a relatively easy sub to set up. However, if you look back at Post #3170, he is trying to mate a Submersive with a pair of Paradigm Sub 25's, using Paradigm's PBK-1 room EQ, and the subs are all asymmetrically placed. He has no measuring equipment other than an SPL meter. Setting levels, phase and any other settings on the Paradigms, while using the PBK-1 to EQ the two Paradigms, but not the Submersive... well that's complicated. To do it right, he would need some measurement capability more than a simple SPL meter. He doesn't want to go there. Hence why I suggested a visit from Mark, or some other professional.

Craig


What special equipment would I need to integrate the Submersive?

Would it be easier/less complicated if I undo the Paradigm PBK-1 and set the subs back to factory specs, then use an outboard equalizer to set all three subs externally?

A third Sub 25 wouldn't fit at the site I intend to use for the Submersive so a third Sub 25 is not an option. How tough would it be to integrate a Paradigm Sub 2 between the sofas? I called Paradigm today and spoke to Gary, he said it's no big deal, very easy. But I am not so sure that he is correct.

Thanks.

To do it right, he would need some measurement capability more than a simple SPL meter. He doesn't want to go there. Hence why I suggested a visit from Mark, or some other professional.He very likely needs more than just a visit from Mark. He probably also needs some additional signal processing with delay capability to account for differences in the subwoofers from the listeners and the group delay in the subwoofers.

He very likely needs more than just a visit from Mark. He probably also needs some additional signal processing with delay capability to account for differences in the subwoofers from the listeners and the group delay in the subwoofers.

Like the QSC DSP30 which I am using for that exact reason. He could also get the SVS Bass EQ product or the similar Audyssey Bass EQ product.

What special equipment would I need to integrate the Submersive?
You could probably do a great job with something like this:
http://www.behringer.de/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx
However, you would still need something to measure your response. You need to *see* the response in order to correct it.

Would it be easier/less complicated if I undo the Paradigm PBK-1 and set the subs back to factory specs, then use an outboard equalizer to set all three subs externally?
Yes, it probably would. An SVS AS-EQ1 could do that.

A third Sub 25 wouldn't fit at the site I intend to use for the Submersive so a third Sub 25 is not an option. How tough would it be to integrate a Paradigm Sub 2 between the sofas? I called Paradigm today and spoke to Gary, he said it's no big deal, very easy. But I am not so sure that he is correct.
I suspect he is correct, but I don't know enough about the PBK-1 to know for sure. What I do know for sure is that the Sub 2 is a *very* expensive option. For a lot less money, I would feel more confident that a Submersive plus the above linked Behringer crossover/EQ, added to you current Paradigm Sub25 system, would result in more/better bass. The *key* is having the ability to optimize the system.

Craig

You could probably do a great job with something like this:
http://www.behringer.de/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx
However, you would still need something to measure your response. You need to *see* the response in order to correct it.


Yes, it probably would. An SVS AS-EQ1 could do that.


I suspect he is correct, but I don't know enough about the PBK-1 to know for sure. What I do know for sure is that the Sub 2 is a *very* expensive option. For a lot less money, I would feel more confident that a Submersive plus the above linked Behringer crossover/EQ, added to you current Paradigm Sub25 system, would result in more/better bass. The *key* is having the ability to optimize the system.

Craig

What do I need to measure the response to adjustments made with Behringer Ultradrive pro DCX2496?

Hi matjet,

I'll have to look further into what the PBK-1 does and doesn't do. A SubMersive should be able to mate in with the Sub 25 just fine, but you do want to have some means of integrating them beyond plug-n-pray. The easy options would probably either be to insert an SVS AS-EQ1 in front of the PBK-1 and SubMersive where it would handle the matching automatically, or add a Velodyne SMS-1 to the SubMersive which you could use to measure the combined response on screen and would give you a good deal of adjustment capability for getting the SubMersive to blend in the system.

The more time intensive, but also more flexible and certain option would be to get REQW running on a PC with an external sound card and microphone to measure the combination while using something like a Behringer DCX- or DEQ-2496 or the QSC DSP-30 as I did this weekend with KX250F's system. I'll see if I can pull together some measurements later this week to show what I did there where we had the 2 SubMersives up front and a single in the back left corner.

Just wanted to say a quick thanks to all the folks who provided feedback to my posts a while back.

After much deliberation, I decided to just go ahead and order a Submersive. In a perfect world, I would have liked to bring in all the subs on my short list and audition them each in my room, but that's just not practical. All said and done, all I really wanted was a nice upgrade to my old HSU that strikes a nice balance between performance, size and price (which, I imagine, is exactly what Mark was going for in it's design). It sounds like I should have it in hand sometime next week, so now I just have to play the waiting game.

Thanks again.


Scott

Just wanted to say a quick thanks to all the folks who provided feedback to my posts a while back.

After much deliberation, I decided to just go ahead and order a Submersive. In a perfect world, I would have liked to bring in all the subs on my short list and audition them each in my room, but that's just not practical. All said and done, all I really wanted was a nice upgrade to my old HSU that strikes a nice balance between performance, size and price (which, I imagine, is exactly what Mark was going for in it's design). It sounds like I should have it in hand sometime next week, so now I just have to play the waiting game.

Thanks again.


Scott
Congrats. You have quite a nice system. I would imagine that the sub will be right at home among your excellent gear:D. Keep us posted when you get it setup. BTW I have settled on GIK myself. I am getting a total of 6 traps (2 242 2 244 2 Monster traps).

one suggestion. skip the 2" traps and get the 4" instead. They offer better broadband absorbtion. my biggest mistakes in treating my rooms was buying the thinner panels....

Sean

one suggestion. skip the 2" traps and get the 4" instead. They offer better broadband absorbtion. my biggest mistakes in treating my rooms was buying the thinner panels....

Sean

So then you think I should skip the 242 and replace them with 244's? My plan was to put the 242's in the front of the room, the 2 Monster Traps on my back wall and the 2 244's over my listening position. But you think I should substitute the 242's on the front wall with 244's? I can do that. It shouldn't add to much to the price. Thanks for the tip.

So then you think I should skip the 242 and replace them with 244's? My plan was to put the 242's in the front of the room, the 2 Monster Traps on my back wall and the 2 244's over my listening position. But you think I should substitute the 242's on the front wall with 244's? I can do that. It shouldn't add to much to the price. Thanks for the tip.

Mike its been a while since I have looked at your room but, more is generally better. My complete front wall around the screen I did myself in 4" OC703 and also first reflection points in 4" then a bunch of 2" around the room and also a big trap in the rear. The changes were not small, and mark heard the room before and after.

So then you think I should skip the 242 and replace them with 244's? My plan was to put the 242's in the front of the room, the 2 Monster Traps on my back wall and the 2 244's over my listening position. But you think I should substitute the 242's on the front wall with 244's? I can do that. It shouldn't add to much to the price. Thanks for the tip.

agreed.... the 242's are fine for mids and highs but the 4" panels are far more effective for bass. If you can tolerate the extra thickness they will work better and as you can see they only incrementally add to the cost.

I can't emphacize enough how much of a change treating my room has had in all 3 rooms I have treated. It makes a big difference in the sound... Dialog is clearer on movies. imaging is hugely improved and of course the smoother bass response....

Sean

242s are cheaper so they are more practical to use at first reflection points and on the front wall. You could use Monster Panels all around your room but that would cost a lot and WAF would be 0.

I wanted to share my experience and a couple of photo's from this past Saturday when Mark came over. He calibrated my three Submersives, and the rest of my system using a QSC-DSP 30 & Aydussey Pro in my Denon AVP-A1HDCI.

Mark arrived around 11:30am on Saturday and after a few minutes talking he got to work. First thing he did was sit in the sweet spot chair and just analyzed the room itself, while asking me questions about what equipment I was using. After getting a feel for the room and equipment Marked moved onto setting up his testing equipment (Laptop, boom with Mic, and running the cables).

Next thing up was to get the three subs playing nice together, using his measuring equipment and making changes with the QSC DSP-30. We moved the subs to various positions in the room and after 2 hours or so came up with what measured the best. Two Submersives up on the front stage behind the center channel and mains and one in the far back left. corner.

At this point (Around 3:00) I ask Mark if he wanted to grab a bite to eat. We headed out to a favorite local Mexican resturant called El Charro's. I think Mark really liked it because his plate was clean, and I think he really liked the cheese dip for the home made chips. If your ever traveling up or down interstate 81 stop into El Charro's in Harrisonburg on south main street it's pretty dam good.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3340.jpg

Getting back from lunch around 4:30 or so Mark got back at it and I believe he did one more set of measurments on the three Submersives. Once the subs where to Marks liking and mine he moved onto the mains and center channel. We ended up moving the mains and the center channel back further toward the screen, and played around with the tow on the mains. Once we settled where wanted them it was onto the Aydussey measurements.

After getting all the cables hooked up for Aydussey Pro and getting the electroinc key from Aydussey it was around 8:00pm or so. Mark took eight measurements, mostly around the main seat position. so we both had to endure the chirp chirp chirp for about a half hour or so. After getting the measurements and letting the laptop to it's thing Mark loaded the results into the Denon and said "Lets get something playing and see what this thing will do".

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3341.jpg

Using Open Range on DVD we set there and listened to some scenes over and over and over again. We where mostly listening to dialouge scenes to get a handle on the center and mains, but by the last two or three adjustments we started going through the gun fight scene. Let me be clear here, on the gun fight scene it was pretty freaking awesome. Not only where the Subermsives sounding good but my entire system was sounding better than I have ever heard it. On the gun shots you would get the initial crack of the gun but what I liked better was when the bullet would hit the wood or the water. You really could feel it hit your body and I'm sure I looked something like this:D or maybe it was this:eek:. After each run Mark would go back and change something on Aydussey Pro. Unfortunately each time he had to make the change and reload the new program back into the Denon, so this got quite time consuming to say the least.

Once we got the results we both liked Mark said throw in something else, I picked up some blu-rays and starting reading off what I had. When I said Transformers 2 Mark said "Lets try that". I put it to the second scene that's in China and let me tell you it was quite awesome. I especially like the scene where Side Swipe comes out, and during his flip shoots his shoulder mounted cannons. You could just feel that $h1t hitting you in your chest and pulsating the room with ease. A little past midnight we both felt pretty good with the results and started to clean up and pack Marks gear.

I know this has been a pretty long post, but I wanted to share my experience with you guys. I have seen quite a few questions over the last couple of days about what Mark does and all that so I thought this might help answer some people's questions.

Please don't ask me or PM me how much it cost. I worked all this out with Mark back in September when I ordered my three Submersives, and if you are interested you really need to talk with him.

I really want to give Mark a big THANKS for taking time out from his family holiday vacation and driving 2.5 hours one way to set up my system. Mark intially told me that it usually takes him between 6 to 8 hours to do. Well it took him/us about 13 hours not the 6 to 8. I feel this really shows this mans character right here. He could have easily packed up and left after 6 to 8 hours and told me thats the best I can do for you, but he didn't. He stayed until the job was done right, and worked on it until he and I where both happy. Now set back and think about that for a minute, how many other people would do that. In my opinion not many.

Thanks again Mark

one suggestion. skip the 2" traps and get the 4" instead. They offer better broadband absorbtion. my biggest mistakes in treating my rooms was buying the thinner panels....You basically get the same results by using a 2" thick trap spaced 2" from the wall as you using a 4" thick trap directly on the wall though.

^^^^that is an impressive story and one of the main reasons I will be ordering a Submersive before year end. Glad to hear you all got everything tweaked just right!

Thanks Kevin and Sean. I am not ready to visually see big traps on an angle in my corners yet. But I have no problem with them flat on the wall. I want to baby step this. I can't do all 4 corners anyway since one of the corners is where my door opens.
You know, as I look at the pictures of KX250F's system it seems like there are no treatments that are on an angle per se. They seem to be all flat against the wall. That I could so. I have no problem putting them flat against the wall wedged into the corner where the two walls meet. If that is acceptable, I would do that. Not initially but down the road.
BTW Kevin, You can click on the my system link and see what my room looks like now. The only thing different is that I have a turntable and a new center.

KX250F, great rundown of the install. You really hit the nail on the head in regards to how Mark works. Not to go into too much detail but I was worried when Mark first came. My room is so small that I thought he might laugh. But he didn't. He took his time and setup the sub with great care. My system sounded scary. We used Open Range as well. We both just looked at each other and smiled. For an untreated room, I think Mark was impressed with the sound he was able to get. Glad it worked out for you.

You know, as I look at the pictures of KX250F's system it seems like there are no treatments that are on an angle per se. They seem to be all flat against the wall.

Mike if you look at the ones on the sides they are actually mounted against 2 x 4's, so each Real Trap is setting a inch and a half away from the wall itself.

KX250F, great rundown of the install. You really hit the nail on the head in regards to how Mark works. Not to go into too much detail but I was worried when Mark first came. My room is so small that I thought he might laugh. But he didn't. He took his time and setup the sub with great care. My system sounded scary. We used Open Range as well. We both just looked at each other and smiled. For an untreated room, I think Mark was impressed with the sound he was able to get. Glad it worked out for you.

Thanks!

Mike if you look at the ones on the sides they are actually mounted against 2 x 4's, so each Real Trap is setting a inch and a half away from the wall itself.


I did not notice that. But I do like the fact that you do not have any that I would call corner mounted. Meaning you don't have any that actually cover the seam where two walls meet. That gives me hope that I can place the GIK treatments the way I really want too.

I did not notice that. But I do like the fact that you do not have any that I would call corner mounted. Meaning you don't have any that actually cover the seam where two walls meet. That gives me hope that I can place the GIK treatments the way I really want too.

I believe for the best results they should be mounted in the corner like you say. If you look at the one picture, the door to Marks right is where you come into the room so I could not mount any in the corner that way. I am a stickler for room balance and symmetry so I didn't mount the other side that way either.

In general, acoustic absorption works better, (more absorption to a lower frequency), with thicker materials. Adding some "dimension" between the wall's surfaces and the absorption material will improve it's absorption capability. 4" thick absorption panels mounted to "straddle" the corner will work better than 4" material mounted on the wall on both sides of the corner.

The best corner bass trap is the "superchunks" type trap that fills the entire corner with thick absorption, ala the GIK Tri-Trap:

http://www.gikacoustics.com/images/product/tritrap2_sm.jpg

http://www.gikacoustics.com/images/product/tritrap1_sm.jpg

or:
http://www.peparsplace.com/Pg_23.htm

Craig

yep I have those and GIK trip traps and then placed 4" open back panels in front of those for extra absorbion.

Mark's setups are great. He knows what he likes and how to acheive it. He clearly is better at setup than I am and I feel fortunate that he has setup 2 of my rooms....

Sean

I wanted to share my experience and a couple of photo's from this past Saturday when Mark came over. He calibrated my three Submersives, and the rest of my system using a QSC-DSP 30 & Aydussey Pro in my Denon AVP-A1HDCI.

Mark arrived around 11:30am on Saturday and after a few minutes talking he got to work. First thing he did was sit in the sweet spot chair and just analyzed the room itself, while asking me questions about what equipment I was using. After getting a feel for the room and equipment Marked moved onto setting up his testing equipment (Laptop, boom with Mic, and running the cables).

Next thing up was to get the three subs playing nice together, using his measuring equipment and making changes with the QSC DSP-30. We moved the subs to various positions in the room and after 2 hours or so came up with what measured the best. Two Submersives up on the front stage behind the center channel and mains and one in the far back left. corner.

At this point (Around 3:00) I ask Mark if he wanted to grab a bite to eat. We headed out to a favorite local Mexican resturant called El Charro's. I think Mark really liked it because his plate was clean, and I think he really liked the cheese dip for the home made chips. If your ever traveling up or down interstate 81 stop into El Charro's in Harrisonburg on south main street it's pretty dam good.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3340.jpg

Getting back from lunch around 4:30 or so Mark got back at it and I believe he did one more set of measurments on the three Submersives. Once the subs where to Marks liking and mine he moved onto the mains and center channel. We ended up moving the mains and the center channel back further toward the screen, and played around with the tow on the mains. Once we settled where wanted them it was onto the Aydussey measurements.

After getting all the cables hooked up for Aydussey Pro and getting the electroinc key from Aydussey it was around 8:00pm or so. Mark took eight measurements, mostly around the main seat position. so we both had to endure the chirp chirp chirp for about a half hour or so. After getting the measurements and letting the laptop to it's thing Mark loaded the results into the Denon and said "Lets get something playing and see what this thing will do".

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3341.jpg

Using Open Range on DVD we set there and listened to some scenes over and over and over again. We where mostly listening to dialouge scenes to get a handle on the center and mains, but by the last two or three adjustments we started going through the gun fight scene. Let me be clear here, on the gun fight scene it was pretty freaking awesome. Not only where the Subermsives sounding good but my entire system was sounding better than I have ever heard it. On the gun shots you would get the initial crack of the gun but what I liked better was when the bullet would hit the wood or the water. You really could feel it hit your body and I'm sure I looked something like this:D or maybe it was this:eek:. After each run Mark would go back and change something on Aydussey Pro. Unfortunately each time he had to make the change and reload the new program back into the Denon, so this got quite time consuming to say the least.

Once we got the results we both liked Mark said throw in something else, I picked up some blu-rays and starting reading off what I had. When I said Transformers 2 Mark said "Lets try that". I put it to the second scene that's in China and let me tell you it was quite awesome. I especially like the scene where Side Swipe comes out, and during his flip shoots his shoulder mounted cannons. You could just feel that $h1t hitting you in your chest and pulsating the room with ease. A little past midnight we both felt pretty good with the results and started to clean up and pack Marks gear.

I know this has been a pretty long post, but I wanted to share my experience with you guys. I have seen quite a few questions over the last couple of days about what Mark does and all that so I thought this might help answer some people's questions.

Please don't ask me or PM me how much it cost. I worked all this out with Mark back in September when I ordered my three Submersives, and if you are interested you really need to talk with him.

I really want to give Mark a big THANKS for taking time out from his family holiday vacation and driving 2.5 hours one way to set up my system. Mark intially told me that it usually takes him between 6 to 8 hours to do. Well it took him/us about 13 hours not the 6 to 8. I feel this really shows this mans character right here. He could have easily packed up and left after 6 to 8 hours and told me thats the best I can do for you, but he didn't. He stayed until the job was done right, and worked on it until he and I where both happy. Now set back and think about that for a minute, how many other people would do that. In my opinion not many.

Thanks again Mark

Hi KX250F
Please tell us the dimensions of your HT room, the equipment changes, and how the sound improved after Mark's adjustments.
Thanks.

I believe for the best results they should be mounted in the corner like you say. If you look at the one picture, the door to Marks right is where you come into the room so I could not mount any in the corner that way. I am a stickler for room balance and symmetry so I didn't mount the other side that way either.

Thanks. Like you I have a door that would prevent the preferred corner mounting method. If I decide to go further I guess I will have to compromise a bit and mount them like you have knowing that it may not be the best. But I would hope that it's better then nothing.

Congrats. You have quite a nice system. I would imagine that the sub will be right at home among your excellent gear:D. Keep us posted when you get it setup. BTW I have settled on GIK myself. I am getting a total of 6 traps (2 242 2 244 2 Monster traps).

Thanks Mike. Yeah, I'm pretty excited about getting the new sub all dialed in. I'll be sure to post back once I get everything squared away. I'm thrilled that I should have it next week, but I know it's going to feel like an eternity waiting for it.

Good move on the GIK's, but I'd tend to agree with everyone else that the 242's will be more effective dealing with reflections (which is still important) than taming any really nasty peaks. I guess picking the most effective treatment package really depends on what the acoustics of the room look like "naked" and what you're trying to accomplish (i.e., how big is/are the peak/peaks and at what Hz).


Scott

Congrats KX250F and thanks for the detailed process that you shared.
Wonder if there are any before/after FR/waterfall graphs to show for us(I know I'm asking too much).
Bringing in multiple subM's must have beneficial effects for leveling the FR.
The door for my dedicated room can no longer provide sufficient LF soundproofing since the only subM found its way in. Sad.

I have been talking with Bryan and he is aware of what my limitations are. I am just limited in the space I have so some compromises are going to have to happen. The truth is, from 120Hz down I don't have any peaks at all.
Below is the final EQ'ed response of the sub in my room. I have no idea what is happening above that point though. I have emailed Bryan my pictures again and I asked him if I gave him free range, without moving equipment, what would be his ideal system for my room. Hopefully he will get back to me so I can see what he thinks.

Hi KX250F
Please tell us the dimensions of your HT room, the equipment changes, and how the sound improved after Mark's adjustments.
Thanks.


The room is 14.5 wide and 22.5 deep with a 7.5 foot ceiling.

I have had the Submersives since the middle of October, but really didn't put to much into setting them up since I new Mark was coming. I just put the three of them up front and ran the Aydussey that is built into the Denon AVP. With this simple setup the three Submersives sounded quite good but I could tell on music that they where not perfectly in sinc with the Aerials. On movies they where doing just as good as the JL Fathoms they replaced, but the Submersives where doing it much easier and without funky noises down low.

After Marks calibration the overall sound has become much more focused and pin point accurate. We decided to move one of the Submersives to the back (This was the plan from the get go. I just didn't do it when I received them) to fill in the sound. Mark used the QSC DSP-30 to set the delay and EQ so that all three Submersives where hitting the listening position at the same time. We also moved the Mains and the center channel back and played around with the toe in on the mains for quite awhile as well.

As far as the low end goes the calibration brought a much more solidified sound. Not as boomy as before and much more well mannered. On the above 80hz side I got much better dialog coming from my center. I used to turn the movie up more so I could hear the dialog a lot better, but then I was reaching for the remote when any type of action scene would hit. Now everything is balanced out just right, and you can actually turn it up quite a bit louder if you want and it still stays nice and balanced.

Congrats KX250F and thanks for the detailed process that you shared.
Wonder if there are any before/after FR/waterfall graphs to show for us(I know I'm asking too much).
Bringing in multiple subM's must have beneficial effects for leveling the FR.
The door for my dedicated room can no longer provide sufficient LF soundproofing since the only subM found its way in. Sad.

I think Mark said yesterday that he would put up some graphs/numbers of my room measurements if he gets some time. I would keep a eye out for when he post.

The room is 14.5 wide and 22.5 deep with a 7.5 foot ceiling.

I have had the Submersives since the middle of October, but really didn't put to much into setting them up since I new Mark was coming. I just put the three of them up front and ran the Aydussey that is built into the Denon AVP. With this simple setup the three Submersives sounded quite good but I could tell on music that they where not perfectly in sinc with the Aerials. On movies they where doing just as good as the JL Fathoms they replaced, but the Submersives where doing it much easier and without funky noises down low.

After Marks calibration the overall sound has become much more focused and pin point accurate. We decided to move one of the Submersives to the back (This was the plan from the get go. I just didn't do it when I received them) to fill in the sound. Mark used the QSC DSP-30 to set the delay and EQ so that all three Submersives where hitting the listening position at the same time. We also moved the Mains and the center channel back and played around with the toe in on the mains for quite awhile as well.

As far as the low end goes the calibration brought a much more solidified sound. Not as boomy as before and much more well mannered. On the above 80hz side I got much better dialog coming from my center. I used to turn the movie up more so I could hear the dialog a lot better, but then I was reaching for the remote when any type of action scene would hit. Now everything is balanced out just right, and you can actually turn it up quite a bit louder if you want and it still stays nice and balanced.

Which JL Audio subs did you own? How many did you use in your system? How do they compare to the Submersive (before and after Marks adjustments. The before comparison would probably be a more fair comparison if you set up the JL Audios the same way you set up the Submersives). I would think the Submersives have more impact/punch; Probably equal in speed, tightness, lack of distortion as the JL Audio. I am interested in HT performance comparison, not performance with music and blending with your main speakers.

Thanks.

Regarding treatments, I now have my plan. Bryan got back to me and we have it all figured out. We are looking at two 242's on the front wall behind the speakers. Two Monster Traps in the front corners(1 trap per corner).2 244's on the back wall. And two 244's over head. He also recommenced 4 D1 diffusers for my ceiling but I have to admit I am not sure where they would go. I have a fan hanging in the middle of the room. The two 244's will be over my head towards the back of the fan. I am not sure how much space I will have after the 244's go up. But in front of the fan is not a problem. We shall see.

Which JL Audio subs did you own? How many did you use in your system? How do they compare to the Submersive (before and after Marks adjustments. The before comparison would probably be a more fair comparison if you set up the JL Audios the same way you set up the Submersives). I would think the Submersives have more impact/punch; Probably equal in speed, tightness, lack of distortion as the JL Audio. I am interested in HT performance comparison, not performance with music and blending with your main speakers.

Thanks.
I had a pair of F112's prior to my pair of Submersives. I can say without question that the Submersives have more clean output, by a wide margin, than the F112's. For HT, the F112's were out of their element. They have a subsonic filter that eliminates output below 20 Hz and limiters that make bad sounds when they're invoked. In my system, those limiters would kick in at about -15 to -12 from Reference Level, depending on the program content.

The Submersives have massive output below 20 Hz, and I haven't found their limits yet. My speakers give out before the Submersives. And just for the record, I prefer the sound quality of the Submersives, even for music.

Craig

Which JL Audio subs did you own? How many did you use in your system? How do they compare to the Submersive (before and after Marks adjustments. The before comparison would probably be a more fair comparison if you set up the JL Audios the same way you set up the Submersives). I would think the Submersives have more impact/punch; Probably equal in speed, tightness, lack of distortion as the JL Audio. I am interested in HT performance comparison, not performance with music and blending with your main speakers.

Thanks.

I owned two JL Fathom F113's for 2.5 years.

2 JL F113's Compared to 2 Submersives (On movies 2 vs 2 in the same location me calibrating using the built in Aydussey in my Denon AVP-A1HDCI) I give it to the Submersives. The Submersives handle the deep bass better (without clanking and clunking) and retain what the JL's have in the "Hit you in the chest feeling". On NON-deep bass movies it's hard to distinguish between the two for me. They are both very very good to me.

2 JL F113's Compared to 3 Submersives that have been calibrated by Mark using a QSC DSP-30 and Aydussey Pro. Much better bass across the board, not as boomy and plenty (I mean PLENTY) more headroom. This one is where the Submersives really pull ahead of the JL's, and I think they should. It's 2 vs 3 and the Submersives have been optimally setup using professional equipment.

Now the question I know some are asking is would three JL's setup using professional equipment be as good as three Submersives. In my opinion the outcome would be the same when comparing one, two, or three. Both subs are great subs that provide great bass (especially that punch you int the chest bass) however the JL's have been limited by design to roll off at 20hz and this is where the Submersives pick up the ball and keep running.

My goals in going from the JL's to the Submersives where simple. One I wanted to have someting that would play the big deep stuff in movies and not run out of steam like the JL's where doing. Two I wanted something that would be at least as good as the JL's in the 20hz to 80hz range or better.

Both of my criteria have been met and my expectations exceeded.

KX

When I first received my two SubMersives, I too had them both in the front of the room (I also tried them both in the back of the room). And while they sounded amazing (EQ'd with the on board Ausyssey of my SSP), it was clearly obvious that there was much more that could be had.

Because I am a bit OCD/anal, I would not have considered putting them in two separate locations that were not symmetrical :o. Of course, that is exactly was Mark did when he showed up. The FR improvement was pretty dramatic (I have previously posted the before and after) and, more importantly, so was the sound. (To be fair, we also used the Audyssey Pro product that I had purchased but not implemented)

I solved the problem of them being un-symmetrical by purchasing two more SubMersives:D

My next step is to use the already purchased QSC DSP30 to delay the rear subs so that the time arrival of the fronts and rears is identical. I will be quite surprised (and pleased) if there is much improvement.

When I first received my two SubMersives, I too had them both in the front of the room (I also tried them both in the back of the room). And while they sounded amazing (EQ'd with the on board Ausyssey of my SSP), it was clearly obvious that there was much more that could be had.

Because I am a bit OCD/anal, I would not have considered putting them in two separate locations that were not symmetrical :o. Of course, that is exactly was Mark did when he showed up. The FR improvement was pretty dramatic (I have previously posted the before and after) and, more importantly, so was the sound. (To be fair, we also used the Audyssey Pro product that I had purchased but not implemented)

I solved the problem of them being un-symmetrical by purchasing two more SubMersives:D

My next step is to use the already purchased QSC DSP30 to delay the rear subs so that the time arrival of the fronts and rears is identical. I will be quite surprised (and pleased) if there is much improvement.

Wow, 4 SubM's! How large is your room?

Just curious, but how do you guys implement an external EQ like the QSC DSP30 with Audyssey? :confused:

Wow, 4 SubM's! How large is your room?

It's only 3800cf. There was no "need" for four. But the lack of symmetry was not of my liking so I now have four.

Just curious, but how do you guys implement an external EQ like the QSC DSP30 with Audyssey? :confused:

There are two schools on where to process EQ: Before or after Audyssey. Given what I am trying to accomplish, I go before Audyssey and that is because I want Audyssey to see one time arrival. And since my rear subs are slightly closer than my front subs, I need to put in a delay so the bass signal arrives at the seating position at the same time as the front.

There are SSP's that have two separate sub outputs and that would have done the same thing for the timing part of the issue (but not the EQ portion)

I thought I'd post up a couple of photo's of my room since moving the Submersives around last Saturday when Mark came to calibrate the system.

The first picture is what it looked like with the 3 Submersives up front. Then a few of the front and a couple of the rear. The last photo is of my dog (Diesel) sitting in front of the Submersive. I hope Mark gets to see the one with Diesel because he never got to really see him when he was at my house only hear him. Diesel isn't to friendly, and at 145 pounds I don't like taking chances with strangers.

Hope you guys enjoy the pictures.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3292.jpg


http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3346.jpg


http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3347.jpg


http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3356.jpg


http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3359.jpg




http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97/PYLESBUCKET/IMG_3361.jpg

Nice room! Cool dog.

So you have two up front and one in the rear?

Do those RealTraps on the wall act as bass traps and/or mid/high frequency absorbers?

KX250F,

I'm curious, how did Mark integrate the Aerials bass boxes with the Submersives? The Aerials have a large, vented cabinet with dual 9" drivers, and with LF extension to ~25 Hz. It would be interesting to know how Mark utilized Bass Management in such a system, especially with the multi-location subwoofers. Also, were there any issues with using "vented" speakers with "sealed" subwoofers. If so, how did Mark address/minimize those issues.

Thanks,

Craig

KX250F,

I'm curious, how did Mark integrate the Aerials bass boxes with the Submersives? The Aerials have a large, vented cabinet with dual 9" drivers, and with LF extension to ~25 Hz. It would be interesting to know how Mark utilized Bass Management in such a system, especially with the multi-location subwoofers. Also, were there any issues with using "vented" speakers with "sealed" subwoofers. If so, how did Mark address/minimize those issues.

Thanks,

Craig

Hi Craig,

I integrated them using the best method available... Actually measuring what they do in the room. :p

In this case there was a deep recession from ~25-45Hz in the response of the very capable 20Ts at the pictured location in the room. We used a crossover of 60Hz for the L/R and 80Hz for the CC5 (a speaker I know rather well). Between the very beneficial blending of the rear located SubMersive and the work Audyssey Pro did on the subwoofer range, there was a very seamless blend between the 20Ts and SubMersives. This also allowed all of the woofers in the 20T's and CC5 to maintain composure and great sound at much higher levels than KX' typically had been able to listen at.

Long story short was that with the selection of mic placements I chose, Audyssey did a great job below ~500Hz with the hardest work being to achieve a setting that didn't compromise what the 20T's & CC5 deliver naturally over the rest of the upper octaves.

I have some measurements I look forward to posting of the low frequency interactions observed and how adding just one rear SubMersive to the pair up front provided 3-7dB of gain at the seats over more than 2/3rd of the subwoofer range. While big crazy subwoofers are easy to get excited about, in the real world we often see more benefit in having a subwoofer that fits in the right location vs. where some monster might be limited to.

Hi Craig,

I integrated them using the best method available... Actually measuring what they do in the room. :p
:D

In this case there was a deep recession from ~25-45Hz in the response of the very capable 20Ts at the pictured location in the room. We used a crossover of 60Hz for the L/R and 80Hz for the CC5 (a speaker I know rather well).
And this is precisely why I asked the question. I have been involved in many discussions about the benefits of Bass Management. Many owners of large, bass-capable speakers will almost get insulted at, or be very resistant to, the suggestion to set their speakers to "Small" and invoke crossovers. They feel like they are wasting the bass extension of their speakers. Yet they don't realize that their speakers are not positioned optimally for bass response. Obviously speakers need to be placed where they provide the best imaging and soundstage. Those placements are rarely the best placements for bass response. So, even those large "full range" speakers may not be providing optimal deep bass response in the room. Using BM to redirect the bass to the subwoofer(s), which *can* be placed optimally in the room for bass response, and which *should* be more capable of deep bass response, is almost always a better solution.

Between the very beneficial blending of the rear located SubMersive and the work Audyssey Pro did on the subwoofer range, there was a very seamless blend between the 20Ts and SubMersives. This also allowed all of the woofers in the 20T's and CC5 to maintain composure and great sound at much higher levels than KX' typically had been able to listen at.
System headroom... that's another argument in favor of Bass Management. When the drivers in the speakers are not required to produce the massive excursions of the deepest bass, they are free to reproduce the mid and upper bass more cleanly. In addition, the amps are relieved of the strain of the power hungry deep bass. The entire system can reproduce with greater volume and less distortion.

In terms of "wasting" the bass capability of the large speakers, the woofers will still be reproducing bass up to their internal crossover point. In the case of the Aerial 20T's, that is up to 300 Hz, or well over two full octaves of bass. By reducing the level of the lowest octave, they can do a better job of reproducing the upper part of the bandwidth.

I'm curious, Mark, do you ever set up systems *without* Bass Management? Also, do you ever use the "Double Bass" option available in some BM schemes?

Long story short was that with the selection of mic placements I chose, Audyssey did a great job below ~500Hz with the hardest work being to achieve a setting that didn't compromise what the 20T's & CC5 deliver naturally over the rest of the upper octaves.

I have some measurements I look forward to posting of the low frequency interactions observed and how adding just one rear SubMersive to the pair up front provided 3-7dB of gain at the seats over more than 2/3rd of the subwoofer range. While big crazy subwoofers are easy to get excited about, in the real world we often see more benefit in having a subwoofer that fits in the right location vs. where some monster might be limited to.
I am looking forward to you posting those measurements. They could be a good reference when future discussions arise about BM with physically large speakers. TIA for taking the time to post them. :)

Craig

KX250F,
Great looking room and system. I have never heard Aerials but I am sure the 20T's sound great. Glad Mark was able to get everything to play nicely together. Just curious, not sure if you mentioned the rest of your gear and what you are using for surround speakers.

Nice room! Cool dog.

So you have two up front and one in the rear?

Do those RealTraps on the wall act as bass traps and/or mid/high frequency absorbers?


With the way I have them set up I'd say it's more of a mid/high trap rather than a LFE trap.

I have various thickness Realtraps and actually moved some of them after Mark had left per his reccomendations.

KX250F,
Great looking room and system. I have never heard Aerials but I am sure the 20T's sound great. Glad Mark was able to get everything to play nicely together. Just curious, not sure if you mentioned the rest of your gear and what you are using for surround speakers.

Surround speakers are SA-35 Paradigm inwalls.

Denon AVP-A1HDCI processor
Balanced Audio Technology VK 600SE amplifier for mains
D-Sonic 6 channel amp for center and surrounds (I use 2 five hundred watt modules for the center (Bi-amp).
Aerial 20T V2 mains
Aerial CC5 center (Power hungry pig, but the best center I've ever owned)
Denon Blu-ray player
Apple TV
Furman Reference 20TI (Balanced Power Transformer)

AND OF COARSE

3 SUBMERSIVES + QSC DSP-30

Surround speakers are SA-35 Paradigm inwalls.

Denon AVP-A1HDCI processor
Balanced Audio Technology VK 600SE amplifier for mains
D-Sonic 6 channel amp for center and surrounds (I use 2 five hundred watt modules for the center (Bi-amp).
Aerial 20T V2 mains
Aerial CC5 center (Power hungry pig, but the best center I've ever owned)
Denon Blu-ray player
Apple TV
Furman Reference 20TI (Balanced Power Transformer)

AND OF COARSE

3 SUBMERSIVES + QSC DSP-30
Very nice indeed.
I am using:
Parasound Halo C2(processor)
Bryston 4b-ST amp (fronts)
Bryston 5b-ST amp (center+surrounds, needs to be fixed:()
Esoteric DV50s player(dvd, cd, SACD, DVD-A)
PS3 Blu-Ray
JM Labs 1027Be's
JM Labs CC1000be
Polk RT3
SubMersive+QSC DSP-30
Plus I have an TT-A Well Tempered Amadeus GTA with a Dynavector XX2MKII cart
I am on a slow upgrade path with my system. There are a number of things I want to do before I would call my room complete. But all that will get done in time. Again, great system you have there :).

Mark, is the new cherry finish anything like this?


http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm214/lcjrodriguez/stand008.jpg

Got my 2 submersives yesterday after being held up in customs for a week
Was surprised boxes were smaller than anticipated
Got them in house and down to basement with help from Fedex guy
Fantastic packaging – great looking well built subs
Bitch to move around on carpet thou –
Initial thought are that subs are very impressive – too early to post too much
They are at least as fast and tight as my Velodyne which is no small feat for the price and far exceeds in headroom – which was what I was looking for
Wanted to maintain quality of my Velo sub and increase power handling and volume to fill my larger HT area (5000 cubic feet with spillage)
These subs are effortless and far exceeds the volume capacity of my Celestion monitors
Looking forward to dialing them in
I just got a bunch of new gear last 2 days so be awhile getting handle on everything
It’s tough to move these beasts around with my jaw still on the floor from installing my first PJ this week – jvc rs25 and 125” 2.35 scoop screen
My basement is a mess with all new stuff but watched my first full film last night Kill Bill – the quality of picture/sound far exceeds any local movie theater
Pretty sweat

Got my 2 submersives yesterday after being held up in customs for a week
Was surprised boxes were smaller than anticipated
Got them in house and down to basement with help from Fedex guy
Fantastic packaging – great looking well built subs
Bitch to move around on carpet thou –
Initial thought are that subs are very impressive – too early to post too much
They are at least as fast and tight as my Velodyne which is no small feat for the price and far exceeds in headroom – which was what I was looking for
Wanted to maintain quality of my Velo sub and increase power handling and volume to fill my larger HT area (5000 cubic feet with spillage)
These subs are effortless and far exceeds the volume capacity of my Celestion monitors
Looking forward to dialing them in
I just got a bunch of new gear last 2 days so be awhile getting handle on everything
It’s tough to move these beasts around with my jaw still on the floor from installing my first PJ this week – jvc rs25 and 125” 2.35 scoop screen
My basement is a mess with all new stuff but watched my first full film last night Kill Bill – the quality of picture/sound far exceeds any local movie theater
Pretty sweat

Hey I'm from Halifax too and should be getting a Submersive in the next couple of weeks!

Got my 2 submersives yesterday after being held up in customs for a week
Was surprised boxes were smaller than anticipated
Got them in house and down to basement with help from Fedex guy
Fantastic packaging – great looking well built subs
Bitch to move around on carpet thou –
Initial thought are that subs are very impressive – too early to post too much
They are at least as fast and tight as my Velodyne which is no small feat for the price and far exceeds in headroom – which was what I was looking for
Wanted to maintain quality of my Velo sub and increase power handling and volume to fill my larger HT area (5000 cubic feet with spillage)
These subs are effortless and far exceeds the volume capacity of my Celestion monitors
Looking forward to dialing them in
I just got a bunch of new gear last 2 days so be awhile getting handle on everything
It’s tough to move these beasts around with my jaw still on the floor from installing my first PJ this week – jvc rs25 and 125” 2.35 scoop screen
My basement is a mess with all new stuff but watched my first full film last night Kill Bill – the quality of picture/sound far exceeds any local movie theater
Pretty sweat

Hello,
The subs can be "walked", however for my current needs I installed casters on my two SubMersives.

Carl

I have read many times about setting full range speakers to small, as was done with your Aeriels. My question is when you switch the receiver to stereo, are they still set as small, then too.

They should be.

I have read many times about setting full range speakers to small, as was done with your Aeriels. My question is when you switch the receiver to stereo, are they still set as small, then too.

I'm assuming you where speaking to me since I haven't seen any post about Aerials since mine.

On the Denon AVP-A1HDCI there is a setting in the menu for 2ch/Audio. You have the option of setting them to what you want (Large or small) and you can have the subs on or off.

I am letting them run as small right now and letting the subs handle the rest. The Aerial's crossover is set at 60hz and the subs at 80hz.

I have read many times about setting full range speakers to small, as was done with your Aeriels. My question is when you switch the receiver to stereo, are they still set as small, then too.

Some receivers, such as the Denons, have separate settings for "2-channel/Direct" in the Advanced Playback menu. This is where you make your setup choices for using your subwoofer for stereo sources. Look thoroughly into your menu settings to see if there is something similar if you have a different brand receiver/processor.

Lee

Obviously speakers need to be placed where they provide the best imaging and soundstage. Those placements are rarely the best placements for bass response.

Not according to Dr Geddes ! Remember, he claims that the more sources that reproduce low frequencies, the better ! That includes 5 full range speakers with no bass management engaged. He is the self-proclaimed multi-sub and bass management (or lack thereof) guru with almost 40 years of experience behind his belt and it is a privilege to be able to hear this from him.

Is he right ? Hell no !

Regards,

Not according to Dr Geddes ! Remember, he claims that the more sources that reproduce low frequencies, the better ! That includes 5 full range speakers with no bass management engaged. He is the self-proclaimed multi-sub and bass management (or lack thereof) guru with almost 40 years of experience behind his belt and it is a privilege to be able to hear this from him.

Is he right ? Hell no !

Regards,

:D

..and there are still no substantial objective results from all of his assertions...

I am letting them run as small right now and letting the subs handle the rest. The Aerial's crossover is set at 60hz and the subs at 80hz.

As a matter of interest, why are using an 80 Hz low pass filter setting on the sub ? Why not bypass it altogether ?

Regards,

and there are still no substantial objective results from all of his assertions...

I'm sure one day in the near future he will be able to compile all of his findings and send it to me via PDF. Although I would prefer his findings to be sent to my black berry instead. Problem is I don't think he knows how. We must give him credit where credit is due though. He is Dr Earl Geddes. Although he forgot to mention that he knows diddly squat about home theater.

When he was still participating in the multiple subwoofer thread I proposed multiple subwoofers installed at ear level height on stands, on the ceiling and also in the room tri-corners and wall-to-ceiling junctures with main speakers positioned in a T pattern (I don't even know what a T pattern is but I proposed it ! ) because his theory would rule out the need for bass traps.

I probably spent eight months trying to crack the case and work out his theory using math ! After many sleepless nights and careful evaluation my math got me to this result :

http://www.wecaretuition.com/Images/wackyemails/maths/expand.JPG

Heavens to betsy. Too complicated !

He is Dr Earl Geddes. Although he forgot to mention that he knows diddly squat about home theater.
Yeah, he clearly doesn't understand or use Bass Management, even though his speakers start to roll-off at 100 Hz. Here's a plot of the FR from his website:

http://www.gedlee.com/images/summa_FR.jpg

He runs these speakers Full Range! :eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

Craig

He runs these speakers Full Range!

Dr Earl Geddes is a legend. Don't sell him short. Only he can design truly full range speakers that can hit down to 50 Hz and still call them 'full range'. It wouldn't surprise me if he used those same very speakers to handle the LFE track in addition to bass in the main channels. He knows what is doing, man. He is an expert !

Regards,

Bitch to move around on carpet thou –


I have a bunch of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Waxman-4703095N-Reusable-Sliders-Oatmeal/dp/B000PB4G04

Makes moving subs a breeze!

Mark