I'd start with diagonal corners or middle of opposing walls like front/back or left/right.
Todd Welti wrote a nice piece in the Harman White Papers about placement of subs in rectangular rooms.
Tim

Good lord this thing is monstrous. It looks beautiful though. Impressions and pics later tonight once my new TV stand is hooked up.

Yep, that and I think I recognize his screenname from a foreign forum (don't remember how I got there). IIRC, he may be part of a group in South East Asia (Singapore and perhaps Malaysia too?) considering making a group purchase from Mark to save on the freight with a bulk order, so there may be a significant difference between placing an order for 2 in a Group Buy vs ordering a 2nd individually at a later date.


Max

Hi MaX,

I'm from Singapore. We alway have group purchase but for HSU Research, SVS & Rythmik seldom group buy for Submersive.

There is a guy in my country get the spark and 2 submersive and I'm going to his place to audition soon.

Marcus

Hi MaX,

I'm from Singapore. We alway have group purchase but for HSU Research, SVS & Rythmik seldom group buy for Submersive.

There is a guy in my country get the spark and 2 submersive and I'm going to his place to audition soon.

Marcus

My mistake, I must have been thinking of this thread
http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1931492/all


Max

I received my pair of black maples submersive hp's on Thursday! It's been a wild ride since then. I wanted to post this to show everyone what an outstanding guy Mark Seaton is!

...

Again, this was just bad luck that, according to Mark has only happened 2-3 times before in the history of the submersive - but stuff like this is bound to happen.... I'm just real impressed with how it was handled. Thanks Mark!:)

That is outstanding customer service. Mark sounds like a great guy to buy from. How difficult was it to get the subs in your BP7000's to blend in with the submersives?

I'm going to try to get some good pics of the Black Maple finish. The cam phone isn't doing a very good job of capturing the look of finish. It really does look like black satin, with a wood veneer.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/bhazard/IMG_20120202_185049.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/bhazard/IMG_20120203_003525.jpg

BTW mine is a rectangular room presently I'm placing both Triads infront left & right side wall.

If I will to get dual submersive should I place at the same place or 1 at front corner and the other at the back diagonal corner?

Thanks

Cheers
Marcus
While Tim's suggestion of the Welti arrangements:
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf,
is a good start, this is were the ability to measure your response becomes highly beneficial. The optimal Welti arrangements may work for many LP's in your room, but they may not be optimal for the actual LP *you* use. The only way to know for sure is to measure.

If you are making the $$$ investment in dual Submersives, then 1/10th, (or less), of that investment in a measuring system is money well spent. There are several available at low cost:
http://www.xtz.se/uk/products/mearurement-system/room-analyzer?stat=1
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=390-790
or, for just the costs of some inexpensive hardware, there is:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

REW has a little harder "learning curve," and the other 2 are more, "Plug 'n Play," but they will all provide you with the info you need to optimize the placements of your new subs.

Good luck.

Craig

That is outstanding customer service. Mark sounds like a great guy to buy from. How difficult was it to get the subs in your BP7000's to blend in with the submersives?

I haven't honestly had much time to play. I hooked them up to each input on my denon 4311, ran audessey xt32, then dialed the subs individually to 75-76 db with sound meter and ended up getting about 82-83 db collectively. Then powered them down and changed to 15 hz tune and powered them back. Changed bp7000s to small and crossed at 60. Pleased with results but will play more. The submersives are much cleaner and deeper than built in bp7000 subs but everything seems to be blending quite nicely. The submersives have massive authority!

What an INCREDIBLE sub!

I haven't even started testing this thing with movies yet, because I'm so in love with this thing and Pandora right now! The streaming quality isn't even that great with Pandora, but music sounds incredible right now.

Cat Scratch Fever live sounded like I was actually at the Ted Nugent concert. Skrillex shook a picture off the wall. Its so powerful yet so clean and precise. Tuesday's Gone and Hotel California were so clear with my new speakers and the SubM. I'm afraid I might not even watch a movie for awhile, this is too nice.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/bhazard/IMG_20120203_194928.jpg

While Tim's suggestion of the Welti arrangements:
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf,
is a good start, this is were the ability to measure your response becomes highly beneficial. The optimal Welti arrangements may work for many LP's in your room, but they may not be optimal for the actual LP *you* use. The only way to know for sure is to measure.

If you are making the $$$ investment in dual Submersives, then 1/10th, (or less), of that investment in a measuring system is money well spent. There are several available at low cost:
http://www.xtz.se/uk/products/mearurement-system/room-analyzer?stat=1
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=390-790
or, for just the costs of some inexpensive hardware, there is:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

REW has a little harder "learning curve," and the other 2 are more, "Plug 'n Play," but they will all provide you with the info you need to optimize the placements of your new subs.

Good luck.

Craig

Hi Craig,

Thanks for your advise. Definitely worth investing in the measuring system if they are user friendly. I always thought those are professional job which we unable to do it. I will research on more measuring equipment and decide which is more suitable for me.

Thanks
Marcus

I haven't honestly had much time to play. I hooked them up to each input on my denon 4311, ran audessey xt32, then dialed the subs individually to 75-76 db with sound meter and ended up getting about 82-83 db collectively. Then powered them down and changed to 15 hz tune and powered them back. Changed bp7000s to small and crossed at 60. Pleased with results but will play more. The submersives are much cleaner and deeper than built in bp7000 subs but everything seems to be blending quite nicely. The submersives have massive authority!

Awesome, glad to hear they are working well for you. :D

Question for the crowd on PJ mounts. I am in the process of re-configuring and upgrading the basment theater again and moved the PJ from a rear mounted equipment rack to ceiling mounted because I relocated all the gear sans PJ to the furnace room where my Phone/SAT-TV/Ethernet all terminate.

Now the problem. The bass keeps shaking the PJ loose and screwing up my alignment. Is this common with inverted hanging pole mounts. I am thinking of building a plywood box and attaching it to the ceiling. This cubby hole would fit a reasonable sized PJ and flipping the PJ back over where gravity and its excellent threaded feet can be used to adjust it. seems like one solution. seems to simplify adjustment.

or is that gonna couple to the bass and cause more issues? I'm about to upgrade the bass in a significant way so I would like to sort this out.

What's everyone wth Seaton bass and PJ's doing or is this not a common issue?

Hi Craig,

Thanks for your advise. Definitely worth investing in the measuring system if they are user friendly. I always thought those are professional job which we unable to do it. I will research on more measuring equipment and decide which is more suitable for me.

Thanks
Marcus

I'm an technical person and I find REW too finicky and time consuming for my tastes. Time consuming to get it working.

XTZ is very easy and works well for the casual user not wanting to geek out but to get his sub dialed easily. I like to geek out but I've wasted entire weekends messing with getting sound cards and mikes calibrated and levels dialed in where I could get an accurate measurement. XTZ you plug it in and follow the not great instructions and your in your business.

The new Dayton rig appears sit in the middle. (don't own that one, already have the first two). It appears easy to setup with more advanced measuring options than the XTZ. Downside is that is relies on a CD and not a built in tone generator like the first two options.

I can't see any HT enthusiast having too much trouble with the XTZ. Maybe with your back from dragging your sub around the room while taking a bunch of measurements . :) :)

I will add to what everyone else has said. I have watched mark do this at my house and learned to do much more setup myself and the room placement and phase/distance settings can easily be measured. moving the subwoofer a few feet or more can have amazing differences. Huge measureable and audible differences. have fun.

I'm an technical person and I find REW too finicky and time consuming for my tastes. Time consuming to get it working.

XTZ is very easy and works well for the casual user not wanting to geek out but to get his sub dialed easily.

The new Dayton rig appears sit in the middle. (don't own that one, already have the first two). It appears easy to setup with more advanced measuring options than the XTZ. Downside is that is relies on a CD and not a built in tone generator like the first two options.

I can't see any HT enthusiast having too much trouble with the XTZ. Maybe with your back from dragging your sub around the room while taking a bunch of measurements . :) :)

I will add to what everyone else has said. I have watched mark do this at my house and learned to do much more setup myself and the room placement and phase/distance settings can easily be measured. moving the subwoofer a few feet or more can have amazing differences. Huge measureable and audible differences. have fun.

Hi Sean,

Thanks, will go ahead and order the XTZ Analyzer to play with my Traids sub until the Submersive arrive.

Cheers
Marcus

I'm an technical person and I find REW too finicky and time consuming for my tastes. Time consuming to get it working.

XTZ is very easy and works well for the casual user not wanting to geek out but to get his sub dialed easily. I like to geek out but I've wasted entire weekends messing with getting sound cards and mikes calibrated and levels dialed in where I could get an accurate measurement. XTZ you plug it in and follow the not great instructions and your in your business.

The new Dayton rig appears sit in the middle. (don't own that one, already have the first two). It appears easy to setup with more advanced measuring options than the XTZ. Downside is that is relies on a CD and not a built in tone generator like the first two options.

I can't see any HT enthusiast having too much trouble with the XTZ. Maybe with your back from dragging your sub around the room while taking a bunch of measurements . :) :)

I will add to what everyone else has said. I have watched mark do this at my house and learned to do much more setup myself and the room placement and phase/distance settings can easily be measured. moving the subwoofer a few feet or more can have amazing differences. Huge measureable and audible differences. have fun.

When I do subwoofer intergration, I don't do any smoothing. From the writeup, it sounds as if XTZ does 1/3rd octave smoothing only. Does XTZ allow you to use other smoothing or is it fixed at 1/3rd??

Question for the crowd on PJ mounts. I am in the process of re-configuring and upgrading the basment theater again and moved the PJ from a rear mounted equipment rack to ceiling mounted because I relocated all the gear sans PJ to the furnace room where my Phone/SAT-TV/Ethernet all terminate.

Now the problem. The bass keeps shaking the PJ loose and screwing up my alignment. Is this common with inverted hanging pole mounts. I am thinking of building a plywood box and attaching it to the ceiling. This cubby hole would fit a reasonable sized PJ and flipping the PJ back over where gravity and its excellent threaded feet can be used to adjust it. seems like one solution. seems to simplify adjustment.

or is that gonna couple to the bass and cause more issues? I'm about to upgrade the bass in a significant way so I would like to sort this out.

What's everyone wth Seaton bass and PJ's doing or is this not a common issue?

I have an inverted mount and a Sub HP in the corner below without issue. Probably a better quality mount or your ceiling joists are not stable.

Hi Craig,

Thanks for your advise. Definitely worth investing in the measuring system if they are user friendly. I always thought those are professional job which we unable to do it. I will research on more measuring equipment and decide which is more suitable for me.

Thanks
Marcus

Ive owned. xtz , rew, omnimic. I vote for omnimic

Ive owned. xtz , rew, omnimic. I vote for omnimic

Just curious as I've only used REW, what are the comparative advantages and disadvantages between the 3?

REW does have a steeper learning curve and takes a little bit more effort to setup, but it appears to have features the other 2 don't eg. the ability to view graphs with no smoothing which is very helpful in the bass regions, selectable sweep ranges that I can begin from 5Hz to see single digit Hz response of the system (which the SubM is capable of in many rooms) vs all the Omnimic graphs I've seen which only start at 16Hz, ETC tool to find first reflection points and determine if acoustic treatment is beneficial etc.


Max

Just curious as I've only used REW, what are the comparative advantages and disadvantages between the 3?

REW does have a steeper learning curve and takes a little bit more effort to setup, but it appears to have features the other 2 don't eg. the ability to view graphs with no smoothing which is very helpful in the bass regions, selectable sweep ranges that I can begin from 5Hz to see single digit Hz response of the system (which the SubM is capable of in many rooms) vs all the Omnimic graphs I've seen which only start at 16Hz, ETC tool to find first reflection points and determine if acoustic treatment is beneficial etc.


Max

can do both with omni- 5Hz and zero smoothing

The latest Omnimic SW goes to 5 hz, I saw it on their website when I placed my order.
Tim

The latest Omnimic SW goes to 5 hz, I saw it on their website when I placed my order.
Tim

Yes it does as i downloaded that version

Good to know that the newest version fixes those deficiencies as those were a couple of reasons why I chose REW over the previous version of Omnimic with the minimum 1/6 octave smoothing and 16Hz lower limit. Does the new version have an ETC tool?


Max

Good to know that the newest version fixes those deficiencies as those were a couple of reasons why I chose REW over the previous version of Omnimic with the minimum 1/6 octave smoothing and 16Hz lower limit. Does the new version have an ETC tool?


Max



they have had zero smoothing and 12 hz from get go
they had few more updates on last firmware but have not tried yet.
will update this week when my Integra 80.3 shows up
looking forward to trying out MultEQ XT 32

I have one 4311, one Submersive HP, and one Omnimic. Now, any good pointers on how to best use Omnimic to maximize performance? I have played around with it but I confess I am not really sure of what I am supposed to be doing with it. Any links to a step-by-step for using it to optimize sub performance in conjunction with XT32? Omnimic for dummies maybe?

I'm not sure if others have experienced this but when I ran Audyssey with the SubM it kinda killed its impact and mid-bass.

When I first got the SubMersive I just swapped it with my PC-13 Ultra and it sounded killer. I then ran Audyssey and it sounded limp so I tried my AS-EQ1 with even worse results. I ended up hooking my Ultra back up and ran Audyssey again then did another clean swap and bingo.......the SubM was sounding killer again. The freq responses were very similar when I ran Audyssey with the Ultra then a clean swap and when I did it with just the subM but the sound was amazingly different.

I'm not sure why this happened or what was going on but thought I should share. Maybe someone bought the subM and was never really satisfied with it because of something Audyssey did to it??

Just a thought........

I used the Omnimic to check for dips and rises but my response was pretty smooth, a 3db dip near 60hz but other than that, I'm pretty smooth. By the way, I hate a measured flat freq response and prefer more of a 'house curve' or perceived freq response. I have a 15-20db curve. I honestly think a measured flat response is way over rated.

I have no specific complaint with the SubM, to the contrary, I think its great, I just want to learn how to use the equipment to its fullest. I've never been a math/engineering guy, and some if this stuff is pretty foreign to me, again, I'd just like to learn more and learn how to get the most out of my equipment.

sorry jjackkrash, what I wrote was a bit misconstruing. I wasn't trying to infer that you disliked or weren't happy with the SubM, I was merely trying to pass on my experience with Audyssey.

I'll mod the post.

For those who are happy with the SubM and are using Audyssey, it might be worth an experiment to run Audyssey with another sub, then a clean swap and see if Audyssey is killing the SubM's true potential. Maybe it was just my setup? but it was a night and day difference for me.

sorry jjackkrash, what I wrote was a bit misconstruing. I wasn't trying to infer that you disliked or weren't happy with the SubM, I was merely trying to pass on my experience with Audyssey.

I'll mod the post.

For those who are happy with the SubM and are using Audyssey, it might be worth an experiment to run Audyssey with another sub, then a clean swap and see if Audyssey is killing the SubM's true potential. Maybe it was just my setup? but it was a night and day difference for me.

are you able to measure your response, you may not be accustomed to accurate bass

are you able to measure your response, you may not be accustomed to accurate bass

Something sounds very odd. I would love to see a plot (NOT AUDYSSEYS) of what the real sub in-room response looks llike.

My vote is with Mr. Burns

Very odd indeed! If I wasn't so impatient and 'had to try out' the SubMersive right then and there, I probably wouldn't have ever noticed what I notice now.

the graphs with Audyssey-SvS-swap to the SubM looked very similar to the graphs after I ran Audyssey-SubM but the sound difference is VERY noticeable; more so than the variations in the graphs can explain. My kids noticed and even my impatient wife did. Her remarks were kinda' like "oh yea....I see what you mean"

I'm not sure what my room is like with no Audyssey but the AS-EQ1 says I had a 20-50hz boost and some dipping around 60-80hz. Yes I also tried using the EQ1 which sounded the worst.

I can't post any graphs because I didn't save any of the screen shots and I leant my Omnimic to a friend. That and I'm very reluctant to change things around after getting everything to sound just right so unfortunately, you're going to have to take my word for it. I am curious to see if someone else could test to see if they get the same kinda' results.

As for the sound of accurate bass, my curve is as smooth as I can get it with a slight dip around 60hz that I can't eliminate. I do not like the sound of a measured flat freq response but prefer the sound of a 'house curve' or perceived freq response. IMHO I think a smooth response is what's important, not just a flat response. I also believe, IMHO, that a measured flat response is only good if listening at reference levels, which I think most do not.....but that might be just me......or is it??? I have around a 15-20 db curve.

I had Audyssey and prefer a house curve. Here is some info on house curves:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/96-house-curve-what-why-you-need-how-do.html

http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=toolbar-instant&hl=en&ion=1&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS388US398#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS388US398&site=webhp&source=hp&q=house%20curve%20and%20why%20we%20need%20it&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d4aea2a5825eafc1&ion=1&biw=1222&bih=1004&ion=1&pf=p&pdl=500

I have around a 15-20 db curve.

can see why Audyssey sounds weak, you like your bass :eek:

PGM2 gives a great house curve on the Submersive
thats what I use

I think one comes to appreciate the Audyssey target curve not when you first get it but after you live with it for a while. Every once in a while I switch Audyssey off to remind me of those days of muddled, boomy bass.

can see why Audyssey sounds weak, you like your bass :eek:

PGM2 gives a great house curve on the Submersive
thats what I use

Agreed. That is a VERY steep house curve. VERY. And I agree with GPBURNS as well on using PGM2. But I guess each to his/her own!

Crabalocker,
Run Audyssey in program 1 (19 hz) then switch to program 2 (15 hz) and turn off amp then turn it back on. As others said above that will give you a milder house curve than you're used too.
Otherwise you may want to spend the $$ for an Audyssey Pro kit that lets you customize what Audyssey is doing.
Good luck,
Tim

Crabalocker,
Run Audyssey in program 1 (19 hz) then switch to program 2 (15 hz) and turn off amp then turn it back on. As others said above that will give you a milder house curve than you're used too.
Otherwise you may want to spend the $$ for an Audyssey Pro kit that lets you customize what Audyssey is doing.
Good luck,
Tim

I have Pro. It won't allow a 10db to 15db slope. Plus or minus 3db for a 6db slope! (the top end can slope a bit further)

But it sure could help him more so than the standard Audyssey Curve≥

Crabalocker
just noticed you have the omnimic
be helpful to post graph of your Freq response from MLP after running Audyssey.
Been a few cases shown where a dip at x-over region caused
loss of "punch" , usually only happens with multiple subs in cases where
Audyssey needs to average sub distances, but never know.
usually quick fix with playing with sub distances
graph at 1/12 smothing and 5 db spread be grea

can see why Audyssey sounds weak, you like your bass :eek:

Yea I like bottom end! that's why I love the SubMersive.

As for the Audyssey results, it's probably just me messing something up but I had the same results after trying it a couple of times.

Oh well, I'm really happy with how everything sounds now......not perfect but the best it has ever sounded. When I get the Omnimic back, I'll make a few graphs.

How much for Audyssey pro? and is it pretty easy to use? As for a curve it can create, can I still use dynamic EQ after I'm done with it? I usually watch movies around -23 to -16 db and dynamic EQ really helps boosting the bottom end of the curve.

Unfortunately, I only have one available spot in the room my SubM is in, which I don't think is the absolute best spot for it. Still, with MCACC and an anti-mode, it sounds pretty damn good.

Just got off the phone w/ Mark, very nice guy.

My new submersive HP will be coming in sometime next week :D

This is the end of months of research and reading the same reviews over and over. It came down to the Sub HP, a Captivator, Cap S, and dual Epik Empires.

In the end, the effortless extension of the submersive, coupled with the possibility of adding a second later on if my room ever changes won me over. The sale he's doing right now wasn't a bad kicker too.

This is replacing a single svs pb10-nsd, so I expect and hope to be completely blown away.

This is replacing a single svs pb10-nsd, so I expect and hope to be completely blown away.
I used to own a PB10-NSD and, IMO, it was a great sub...but the SubMersive is in a completely different league. I expect you will be very impressed and satisfied. :cool:

Just got off the phone w/ Mark, very nice guy.

My new submersive HP will be coming in sometime next week :D

This is the end of months of research and reading the same reviews over and over. It came down to the Sub HP, a Captivator, Cap S, and dual Epik Empires.

In the end, the effortless extension of the submersive, coupled with the possibility of adding a second later on if my room ever changes won me over. The sale he's doing right now wasn't a bad kicker too.

This is replacing a single svs pb10-nsd, so I expect and hope to be completely blown away.

You will be. My new SubM HP is a beast, and looks beautiful. I was torn between a Cap S and this. The Black Maple finish and sale on shipping was the kicker (plus dual opposed drivers). It is such an upgrade over my old sub its not even funny. It sounds like I have a professional system now.

I'm about to EQ my room using Program 2 on the DSP tonight. I want to see which setting sounds better. I'm debating on keeping Prog 1, Prog 1 with the Lift 25 setting on the anti-mode (a little too strong a lift IMO), Prog 2, or Prog 2 with a 25 or 35hz lift. We shall see.

Just got off the phone w/ Mark, very nice guy.

My new submersive HP will be coming in sometime next week :D

This is the end of months of research and reading the same reviews over and over. It came down to the Sub HP, a Captivator, Cap S, and dual Epik Empires.

In the end, the effortless extension of the submersive, coupled with the possibility of adding a second later on if my room ever changes won me over. The sale he's doing right now wasn't a bad kicker too.

This is replacing a single svs pb10-nsd, so I expect and hope to be completely blown away.

I also had a SVS PB10 before getting a SubM-HP; it was my first 'real' sub, and I loved it; it's great for the price. But as others have noted, the SubM is another world altogether.

Congrats Jparker. I will just add, like everyone else, you should be very pleased with the results when you get the SubMersive HP. I have my sub for 4-5 years and it has never let me down or ceased to amaze me. Pleas post your thoughts when you get it.

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I have had Quad Empires, Dual HSU 3.3's with the Turbo's and dual MBM'12's, The bad boy Conquest, Dual Ed A7S-450's, And now just ordered dual Submersive's today from Mark! I was torn between these and the Capacitors and went with Mark. I have been running dual MFW's with the Turbo Kit and was so impressed with the SQ & output that I knew the Submersive was better. Next week should be fun!

Bill

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have had Quad Empires, Dual HSU 3.3's with the Turbo's and dual MBM'12's, The bad boy Conquest, Dual Ed A7S-450's, And now just ordered dual Submersive's today from Mark! I was torn between these and the Capacitors and went with Mark. I have been running dual MFW's with the Turbo Kit and was so impressed with the SQ & output that I knew the Submersive was better. Next week should be fun!

Bill

Congrats Bill.
I know that's not a complete list of your prior subs. ;)
I know you change subs like some change pants but I think the Submersives will quench your thirst for bass longer than anything has thus far. Looking forward to your impressions.
Tim.

Congrats Bill.
I know that's not a complete list of your prior subs. ;)
I know you change subs like some change pants but I think the Submersives will quench your thirst for bass longer than anything has thus far. Looking forward to your impressions.
Tim.

It is close as to the count. I think that I have around 15 sub boxes in the barn to date. Every time I sold one locally, no one wanted the box, but I have shipped some too.

I have had Quad Empires, Dual HSU 3.3's with the Turbo's and dual MBM'12's, The bad boy Conquest, Dual Ed A7S-450's, And now just ordered dual Submersive's today from Mark! I was torn between these and the Capacitors and went with Mark. I have been running dual MFW's with the Turbo Kit and was so impressed with the SQ & output that I knew the Submersive was better. Next week should be fun!

Bill
That's great news, Bill. Did you get the HP's?

Like Tim, I think you'll find the Submersives to be closer to what you've been seeking than anything else you've tried. I hope you enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine. :)

Craig

That's great news, Bill. Did you get the HP's?

Like Tim, I think you'll find the Submersives to be closer to what you've been seeking than anything else you've tried. I hope you enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine. :)

Craig

Yep, HP's.

I have had Quad Empires, Dual HSU 3.3's with the Turbo's and dual MBM'12's, The bad boy Conquest, Dual Ed A7S-450's, And now just ordered dual Submersive's today from Mark! I was torn between these and the Capacitors and went with Mark. I have been running dual MFW's with the Turbo Kit and was so impressed with the SQ & output that I knew the Submersive was better. Next week should be fun!

Bill

And I thought I was a sub-aholic. You win!!!! But like others have said, if you spend the time setting these up in the very best possible spot I will be suprised if you dump them anytime soon.

I have not owned quite as many as you (maybe 10 different ones) but the difference between dual SubMersives and anything I had ever had (or heard) was revelatory to say the least.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





I have had Quad Empires, Dual HSU 3.3's with the Turbo's and dual MBM'12's, The bad boy Conquest, Dual Ed A7S-450's, And now just ordered dual Submersive's today from Mark! I was torn between these and the Capacitors and went with Mark. I have been running dual MFW's with the Turbo Kit and was so impressed with the SQ & output that I knew the Submersive was better. Next week should be fun!

Bill

Wow, the SubMersive HP is only my third sub. Guess I like to hold onto stuff:D. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on them. I have a sneaky feeling that you will be impressed, even with that list of subs you are coming from.

Hi Guys,

Need one more advise from you guys.

Actually intend to order 2 pre-own 1000W submersive and upgrade to HP when they are available for International market around May. However the demand is so great that no stocks at the moment. Therefore would like those upgrade to HP to advise is there a great different between normal and HP?

Which options will be best for me.
1. Get 2 new submersive now and upgrage to HP when available.
2. Get 1 new submersive and get another HP when available (any problem with SQ or calibration with 1 normal & 1 HP Sub?)
3. If not much of sonic different than get 2 new submersive and forget about HP.

Cheers
Marcus

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I have had Quad Empires, Dual HSU 3.3's with the Turbo's and dual MBM'12's, The bad boy Conquest, Dual Ed A7S-450's, And now just ordered dual Submersive's today from Mark! I was torn between these and the Capacitors and went with Mark. I have been running dual MFW's with the Turbo Kit and was so impressed with the SQ & output that I knew the Submersive was better. Next week should be fun!

Bill

I presume the "Capacitors" are the Captivators? :D

That struck a chord with me for a good sub name though.....the Incapacitator.

I'm burning the test Blu-ray that was used in the latest shootout now.

I just ran the Super 8 Train scene... Holy Sh*t! It was intense.

I'm burning the test Blu-ray that was used in the latest shootout now.

I just ran the Super 8 Train scene... Holy Sh*t! It was intense.

Is the test disc on the net for download or does someone have copies?

Bill

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I have had Quad Empires, Dual HSU 3.3's with the Turbo's and dual MBM'12's, The bad boy Conquest, Dual Ed A7S-450's, And now just ordered dual Submersive's today from Mark! I was torn between these and the Capacitors and went with Mark. I have been running dual MFW's with the Turbo Kit and was so impressed with the SQ & output that I knew the Submersive was better. Next week should be fun!

Bill

the vmps's didnt last too long.:)

Hi Guys,

Need one more advise from you guys.

Actually intend to order 2 pre-own 1000W submersive and upgrade to HP when they are available for International market around May. However the demand is so great that no stocks at the moment. Therefore would like those upgrade to HP to advise is there a great different between normal and HP?

Which options will be best for me.
1. Get 2 new submersive now and upgrage to HP when available.
2. Get 1 new submersive and get another HP when available (any problem with SQ or calibration with 1 normal & 1 HP Sub?)
3. If not much of sonic different than get 2 new submersive and forget about HP.

Cheers
Marcus
Depending on the size of the room (and how much of a basshead you are), 2 regular Submersives may be enough. If you decide that you want more power, the shipping for just the amps alone to upgrade to HPs will be substantially less than the shipping for the subs.

I'm burning the test Blu-ray that was used in the latest shootout now.

I just ran the Super 8 Train scene... Holy Sh*t! It was intense.
Intense, yes. Ear piercingly sharp, YES. Anything worthwile for auditioning subs, nope. To date, my favorite scene for demo'ing LFE and sheer 'presence' is still the 'pod emerging' scene from WOTW.

Tron:Legacy has some decent scenes too (I like the fight at Zuse's club and 'the Challenge Of The Grid' intro), but I haven't found anything quite as impressive as the LFE when the ground begins shaking and breaking in WOTW, then the pod steps out of the ground.


Max

Is the test disc on the net for download or does someone have copies?

Bill

It is a 50gb torrent. I might have a link somewhere.

Keep in mind, it contains copyrighted material, so sharing it probably isn't ok.

Intense, yes. Ear piercingly sharp, YES. Anything worthwile for auditioning subs, nope. To date, my favorite scene for demo'ing LFE and sheer 'presence' is still the 'pod emerging' scene from WOTW.

Tron:Legacy has some decent scenes too (I like the fight at Zuse's club and 'the Challenge Of The Grid' intro), but I haven't found anything quite as impressive as the LFE when the ground begins shaking and breaking in WOTW, then the pod steps out of the ground.

Max

Yeah, that's why I can't wait to load it up later when I get home. I remember that scene, and it was just "ok" with my old setup.

Yeah, that's why I can't wait to load it up later when I get home. I remember that scene, and it was just "ok" with my old setup.

LOL, playing that scene at Reference is a great way to rope new folks into becoming inductees to Seatonholics Anonymous. When they really experience that scene for the first time, they're going o go home, listen to their sound systems, and know that they want more.


Max

LOL, playing that scene at Reference is a great way to rope new folks into becoming inductees to Seatonholics Anonymous. When they really experience that scene for the first time, they're going o go home, listen to their sound systems, and know that they want more.

Max

It's also a great way to meet the new neighbors next door without having to leave the house. lol

I'm going to have to learn how to soundproof an already finished room someday.

the vmps's didnt last too long.:)

Still have them setup and just might hang on to them. I would have to sell them locally as a package of 2 along with the EXP4000 amp that has the quieter fans installed. They would be way too heavy to ship.

It is a 50gb torrent. I might have a link somewhere.

Keep in mind, it contains copyrighted material, so sharing it probably isn't ok.

Here is a link where shared clips were done http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=575236. I have 28 discs of DVD material from this site.

I'm going to have to learn how to soundproof an already finished room someday.

I have looked into that as well and at least for me, it's not that simple. Two things I did were to get a solid core door and I forget what it's called, but you can put a strip that covers the bottom of the door. I also put something called Celotex on the door itself. All of that helped but I still have issues. Once it was calibrated properly, it does not seem that bad though. If you really want to do it right you will probably have do a green glue and second layer of drywall in your room. But you would have to all the walls and ceiling otherwise it will not work that well. I don't know if any of those foam treatments work on frequencies as low as the bass that is probably giving you an issue. Trust me, I have a ton of links on sound proofing and none of them are easy if your room is finished.

I have looked into that as well and at least for me, it's not that simple. Two things I did were to get a solid core door and I forget what it's called, but you can put a strip that covers the bottom of the door. I also put something called Celotex on the door itself. All of that helped but I still have issues. Once it was calibrated properly, it does not seem that bad though. If you really want to do it right you will probably have do a green glue and second layer of drywall in your room. But you would have to all the walls and ceiling otherwise it will not work that well. I don't know if any of those foam treatments work on frequencies as low as the bass that is probably giving you an issue. Trust me, I have a ton of links on sound proofing and none of them are easy if your room is finished.

That's the issue I'm having. It is above my level of DIY knowledge, and a bit difficult for me. It has the chance of looking very bad if done wrong as well.

I would have to hire a pro to do it, but it would cost a fortune. Much easier if the room wasn't finished.

I've been looking into it too in my finished room... nobody can give a real quote without blueprints to look at and pictures, but the general consensus from asking around the forum is I'm looking at north of 30K to do it properly with all the teardown and rebuild it would require. I'd rather buy a new house and start from scratch.

That's the issue I'm having. It is above my level of DIY knowledge, and a bit difficult for me. It has the chance of looking very bad if done wrong as well.

I would have to hire a pro to do it, but it would cost a fortune. Much easier if the room wasn't finished.

Very difficult for me also. That is why I just did what I could. Although, I did not do the door myself. I had a contractor do that for me. I have just accepted the fact that I probably can't do anything more to sound proof the room and just live with it.

You guys are killing me. I'm trying to stay away due to budget concerns from the Submersive but it is so hard.

You guys think a Definitive Technology Supercube Reference would play well with a Submersive?

You guys are killing me. I'm trying to stay away due to budget concerns from the Submersive but it is so hard.

You guys think a Definitive Technology Supercube Reference would play well with a Submersive?

I have seen the DT SR listed at $1899. If you get the regular, non HP model, the price should not be that different. Plus Mark is having a "sale" where shipping is just $100 for the lower 48 states. Sale ends March 12th. So that would be $2195 and you can get the Black Maple finish at no extra cost. Unless I had some serious placement restrictions, I would just get the SubMersive. I personally think that a SubMersive would be a better a sub in terms of output and extension. It is quite simply, one of the best subs I have heard.
Just in case you needed the link quick
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/?forum=87120
Click on Product pricing and 7th anniversary sale.

I have seen the DT SR listed at $1899. If you get the regular, non HP model, the price should not be that different. Plus Mark is having a "sale" where shipping is just $100 for the lower 48 states. Sale ends March 12th. So that would be $2195 and you can get the Black Maple finish at no extra cost. Unless I had some serious placement restrictions, I would just get the SubMersive. I personally think that a SubMersive would be a better a sub in terms of output and extension. It is quite simply, one of the best subs I have heard.
Just in case you needed the link quick
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/?forum=87120
Click on Product pricing and 7th anniversary sale.

I already have the Def Tech Superube Reference. I have had it for about 4 years now and generally been pleased but it has been 3 years since I had it in a closed room so I forgot what it sounds like in an actual room.

Once my theater is done it will be 25x13.5x8.75

The one thing I know I am missing is that punch in the chest so I figured adding a 2nd sub would help that and while I am at it I might as well go as big as possible:o

I would go with the HP version for another $100 if I did.

Does it matter which direction you place them? I know the SubM has opposit facing subs and the DT SR is front facing with 2 side facing radiators

No, I don't think it makes a difference how you place the SubMersive. Mine is almost in the middle of one of my long walls and it sounds great. I know Craig has his three sort of randomly placed in the room and they sound great. I had mine close to my back wall within inches actually and it sounded fine but my response is better in the new position. The HP would give you all the low end punch you would like I think. Again, I think people have them placed in different spots with no real issue.

Looks like PRG 1 is my preference.

WOTW Pod scene shakes the floor upstairs. Love it.

I use PRG 1 as well. WOTW is just plain silly.

Try PULSE :eek:

I use PRG 1 as well. WOTW is just plain silly.

WOTW is just plain silly.
Funny you say this, I was playing the pod scene on the Cap1k last night and it felt like my couch was in the scene. You don't realize how much bass is in this scene until you have a sub that will keep up with it. The volume was only half way to reference in my system. Im going try it again tonight because it gives me the giggles.

Funny you say this, I was playing the pod scene on the Cap1k last night and it felt like my couch was in the scene. You don't realize how much bass is in this scene until you have a sub that will keep up with it. The volume was only half way to reference in my system. Im going try it again tonight because it gives me the giggles.

What part of NY are you in? I might have to give you an audition of my SubM, and an audition for me for your Cap.

Do I smell a northern nj/southern ny sub shootout brewing?

I would love to attend :-)

For WOTW are you referring to the original or Tom Cruise edition?

It has to be the Tom Cruise version.

What part of NY are you in? I might have to give you an audition of my SubM, and an audition for me for your Cap.

I'm in Queens, NY. I would love to hear the SubM HP. I was hoping to listen to one but the event was canceled.

Do I smell a northern nj/southern ny sub shootout brewing?
The east coast GTG was going to happen this saturday, but the event host needed to move because of a new job so it was canceled. But we are looking to reschedule. There were about 13 people attending the event.

Do I smell a northern nj/southern ny sub shootout brewing?

I would love to attend :-)


Hmmmm....

I'm in Queens, NY. I would love to hear the SubM HP. I was hoping to listen to one but the event was canceled.

The east coast GTG was going to happen this saturday, but the event host needed to move because of a new job so it was canceled. But we are looking to reschedule. There were about 13 people attending the event.

Upper Westchester NY, right on the county line between Westchester and Putnam.

For WOTW are you referring to the original or Tom Cruise edition?

Just for trivia's sake, it's only been a fairly recent development for movie soundtracks to include significant infrasonic content. The vast majority of the movies with the most powerful infrasonic content were made after 2005. The factors influencing this include advancements in bass/LFE synthesizers and subwoofers capable of reproducing these frequencies becoming more common.

If you listen to movie soundtracks even from the 80's and 90's, even the loud action movies have little content below the 30's Hz range (the movie Earthquake being a notable exception). The further you go back, the higher the low frequency cutoff seems to be (are there movies from the 50's that have any content at 30Hz or lower?).


Max

Upper Westchester NY, right on the county line between Westchester and Putnam.

I would have the gtg at my place but I don't have the equipment or the room for it.

I would have the gtg at my place but I don't have the equipment or the room for it.

I don't have the space or equipment unfortunately for a gtg either. Someday maybe.

I'd still demo the SubM for you. I don't think I've seen anyone else in the NY/CT/NJ area within an hour distance from me with a Cap or SubM.

I'm in Queens, NY. I would love to hear the SubM HP. I was hoping to listen to one but the event was canceled.


The east coast GTG was going to happen this saturday, but the event host needed to move because of a new job so it was canceled. But we are looking to reschedule. There were about 13 people attending the event.

If there is one near Northern NJ I would love to attend. I can bring my Def Tech Supercube Reference :cool: It certainly isn't a popular sub and will perhaps give options to users looking for a stylish small sub

My theater is under construction and won't be done for months so I can't host....yet

I'll bring it up with the wife to if she's okay with hosting a GTG. She'd have to bring my 2 boys to CT to visit family or something like that.
Cape Cod may be a bit far for some.

I normally have seating for 7-8 but could probably get temporary seating for 2-4 more.
Tim

Frankly, I think either option could work. Obviously, dual Submersives would be excellent. However, a single Submersive with a pair of Triad Gold subs could probably be made to work well too, (assuming you are using a Triad DSP rack amp for each sub.) Of all the "other" subs out there, the Triad subs would be some of the most likely to be beneficially integrated with a Submersive. The Triad's are sealed, use a 15" driver, have a DSP amplifier and a -3 dB point of 20 Hz, (whereas the Submersive, (non-HP), has a -3 dB point of 19 Hz.) These should be similar enough in extension and roll-off that they should integrate pretty well together. In fact, having a 3rd source of bass can even out the in-room frequency response across a larger area. They could be set up using the "Geddes" technique, or at least some variation of it:
http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

I would give that a shot first. If it doesn't work out, you can always sell the Triads and get another Submersive. (You will, however, need some ability to measure the in-room response. If you don't have that, it will be very difficult to optimize such a system.) Good luck! :)

Craig

Hi Craig,

Thanks for your advise and have decided as follow:-

1. In Submersive Forum Mark stated that 240V HP will probably available end Feb or March. So will order 1 Submersive HP instead of pre-owned and upgrade later.

2. Will get the Omnimic.

BTW base on your experience how will you place the SUBs for a start.

Submersive in the front and 2 Triads at the back or any other proposal.

My room size 11' width 18' length and 9.5' height.
L/C/R/SURR are all Triads Gold Inwall . 5.1
Present Pre Onkyo 886 should I upgrade to new model with XT32, does it make a lot of different. If not necessary will save the $$$ for another SUB.

Carpeted floor and no room treatment.

Please kindly advise any other stuffs I need to get to improve the SQ.
Bass trap etc.

Another question: Is my room too small for 7.2?


Thanks
Marcus

Hi Craig,

Thanks for your advise and have decided as follow:-

1. In Submersive Forum Mark stated that 240V HP will probably available end Feb or March. So will order 1 Submersive HP instead of pre-owned and upgrade later.

Marcus
See HERE (http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1272063362&postcount=246)
Perhaps have to wait till May.

I too was part of the Canadian Group Buy for the SubMersives. I was like Jason, not sure if it was going to be a noticeable upgrade from my SVS PB13Ultra. I purchased two SubMersives and couldn't be happier. It is a dramatic improvement with a powerful, clean, clear, authoritative presence of bass. I am so happy I went with Seaton Sound. For anyone on the fence, trying to decide if the SubMersive is the right choice, just get it. It really is an amazing product and all the great things people say about it are true.

Where's the link for the Group Buy (which I obviously missed) btw? Curious as to what it was!

Hello everyone, my name is BHazard (Hi BHazard) and I am a new Seatonholic.

Where's the link for the Group Buy (which I obviously missed) btw? Curious as to what it was!

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22118

Hi Craig,

Thanks for your advise and have decided as follow:-

1. In Submersive Forum Mark stated that 240V HP will probably available end Feb or March. So will order 1 Submersive HP instead of pre-owned and upgrade later.

2. Will get the Omnimic.

BTW base on your experience how will you place the SUBs for a start.

Submersive in the front and 2 Triads at the back or any other proposal.

My room size 11' width 18' length and 9.5' height.
L/C/R/SURR are all Triads Gold Inwall . 5.1
Present Pre Onkyo 886 should I upgrade to new model with XT32, does it make a lot of different. If not necessary will save the $$$ for another SUB.

Carpeted floor and no room treatment.

Please kindly advise any other stuffs I need to get to improve the SQ.
Bass trap etc.

Another question: Is my room too small for 7.2?


Thanks
Marcus
Not Craig, but here's my take on the situation:
Yes, getting Audyssey XT32 will help, especially in a room with no treatment. If you check out the Audyssey thread, you'll see more than a few folks commenting that there was a definitive improvement in the bass alone from upgrading, and there is also an improvement in the EQ of all the other speakers.

If you DO upgrade to something with XT32, you can try placing the SubM in front and the Triad subs closer to you in the rear and equidistant from the MLP. With XT32, connect the SubM to the Sub1 output and use a y-splitter to connect the Triad subs to the Sub2 output.

With your room width of 11', it's not going to be easy to use DSX wide speakers. To get the recommended 60 degree angle, they will end up much closer to the MLP than the LCR. Heights may be an option, but with your room dimensions, rear surrounds would be the ideal option for 7.1 (and it's the only format which actually has some movies discretely recorded as such).

Bass traps can definitely help. They will help even out the bass response and reduce ringing/overhang. This in turn makes the higher frequencies sound clearer. You can try making your own bass traps. There are lots of sites online with DIY instructions to make your own bass traps. Here in the US, many folks find that commercial ready-made solutions offer very good bang-for-the-buck with better (lab tested) results, and after taking materials cost and time for the DIY solutions into account.

Absorption at the first reflection points on the walls and ceiling will also help the overall sound and especially clarity of the higher frequencies. This can be tested by hanging a thick fuzzy rug on the walls st first reflection points. Although Audyssey room correction does the best it can to correct room induced problems, it can only do so much (although the results of Audyssey may well be enough to satisfy someone).

Unfortunately, I don't know what the availability and cost of commercially available bass traps and other room treatment is in Singapore. If you have to import those too, then it might be more tempting to try the DIY route.


Max

Marcus,

Max has covered most everything, but I'll fill in a few details. :)

Not Craig, but here's my take on the situation:
Yes, getting Audyssey XT32 will help, especially in a room with no treatment. If you check out the Audyssey thread, you'll see more than a few folks commenting that there was a definitive improvement in the bass alone from upgrading, and there is also an improvement in the EQ of all the other speakers.
Agreed! The biggest effect I heard from XT32 was in the mid-and upper bass, above the subwoofer range. The additional filters in the mains really help smooth out the bass in the area where the room has a huge impact, but that can't be EQ'd in the subwoofer.

If you DO upgrade to something with XT32, you can try placing the SubM in front and the Triad subs closer to you in the rear and equidistant from the MLP. With XT32, connect the SubM to the Sub1 output and use a y-splitter to connect the Triad subs to the Sub2 output.
Excellent point! The 886 only has a single subwoofer output. An XT32 equipped pre/pro would have dual subwoofer outs. Connect the subs as Max suggests and XT32 will set levels and distances separately for the Submersive and for the pair of Traid subs. I would reinforce Max's suggestion to try to keep the Triad subs both equidistant to the primary listening position. They don't necessarily need to be "symmetric" to the LP, just equidistant. Also, be sure you gain match them. If you need some explanation of gain-matching, read this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19446901#post19446901

In terms of placement, Max's suggestion is a great starting point. Since you'll be getting OmniMic, you can use it to measure the FR before you run Audyssey, to try to optimize placement of the subs. Measure the Submersive independently, then each Triad sub. Then combine them and measure the combined response. Move the subs around and try to find the flattest combination of placements, and then run Audyssey from there. Giving Audyssey a better starting point will always yield a better result.

With your room width of 11', it's not going to be easy to use DSX wide speakers. To get the recommended 60 degree angle, they will end up much closer to the MLP than the LCR. Heights may be an option, but with your room dimensions, rear surrounds would be the ideal option for 7.1 (and it's the only format which actually has some movies discretely recorded as such).
Agreed, with the caveat that, if the seating is close to the back wall, 7.1 won't be advantageous. In that case, heights would be a better option, if they work in your space. I think you said you had 10' ceilings, so you should be able to do height speakers pretty easily. However, you would need to decide which arrangement for heights that you want to go with, Dolby's or Audyssey's. Here are the links:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-pro-logic-iiz-details.html
http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/audyssey-dsx

Dolby suggests the height speakers be directly above the L/R's. Audyssey wants them at a 45 degree elevation angle. I would chose one or the other of these and not try to use both, or some intermediate compromise.

Bass traps can definitely help. They will help even out the bass response and reduce ringing/overhang. This in turn makes the higher frequencies sound clearer. You can try making your own bass traps. There are lots of sites online with DIY instructions to make your own bass traps. Here in the US, many folks find that commercial ready-made solutions offer very good bang-for-the-buck with better (lab tested) results, and after taking materials cost and time for the DIY solutions into account.

Absorption at the first reflection points on the walls and ceiling will also help the overall sound and especially clarity of the higher frequencies. This can be tested by hanging a thick fuzzy rug on the walls st first reflection points. Although Audyssey room correction does the best it can to correct room induced problems, it can only do so much (although the results of Audyssey may well be enough to satisfy someone).

Unfortunately, I don't know what the availability and cost of commercially available bass traps and other room treatment is in Singapore. If you have to import those too, then it might be more tempting to try the DIY route.


Max
All excellent advice! :)

Craig

HOLY *!*!*!*!*.

So I ordered my subm from mark on... monday?
And guess what the UPS guy just dropped off?

Gonna go break my foundation for a while

JP,
Great news. I checked your room and it looks fantastic. Can't wait for you to set up the sub and give some feedback.

So I put in M&C, played the under attack scene. It was very nice, but honestly I didn't think it was a huge improvement over the PB10. Got a little depressed, maybe my room simply is small enough that my little svs sub was giving me all I could get.
On a whim I turned on the xbox and put in gears 3. Bingo. Firing a gun = getting punched in the chest. It was amazing, so I played for a while :-)

Calibration didn't show a whole ton of difference, I was flat to 16hz w/ the svs, but I know I have much more headroom at higher volumes, and the midbass slam of gunshots was amazing. Definite improvement, great product Mark. I'm happy.

So I put in M&C, played the under attack scene. It was very nice, but honestly I didn't think it was a huge improvement over the PB10. Got a little depressed, maybe my room simply is small enough that my little svs sub was giving me all I could get.
On a whim I turned on the xbox and put in gears 3. Bingo. Firing a gun = getting punched in the chest. It was amazing, so I played for a while :-)

Calibration didn't show a whole ton of difference, I was flat to 16hz w/ the svs, but I know I have much more headroom at higher volumes, and the midbass slam of gunshots was amazing. Definite improvement, great product Mark. I'm happy.

M&C Bluray?

Hi Mark,

If I may, I would like to elaborate here a little bit... (OK, well, maybe more than a "little bit!" :) )

First, the SMS-1 is a great device for helping to optimize subwoofer placement in the room prior to any EQ or calibration. To use it for this, just turn off the speakers and play only the sub. Disable all EQ in the SMS-1 and set everything else to baseline. Then place the mic at the primary LP and move the subwoofer around room while watching the FR on the OSD. Place the sub in the spot that measures the flattest without any EQ. This will make it much easier to EQ the system later, as you will need less cuts or boost to get a perfectly flat response.

Second, when setting levels, there are 4 different level settings that need to be accounted for:

1. Master Volume Control
2. Subwoofer and Speaker Trims
3. SMS-1 Level
4. Subwoofer Level

These will all interact and they all need to be taken into account prior to doing any calibrations or EQ. To set the levels, and then EQ the system with the SMS-1, I suggest the following progression:

1. Start by setting all trims in the receiver to 0. (We'll come back later and re-set these for calibration purposes, but for now, set them to 0.)

2. Set ALL speakers to Small AND all crossover frequencies to 80 Hz. Reasons:
The SMS-1 expects the use of Bass Management, which is what you engage when you set the speakers to Small. Therefore, to get proper results from the SMS-1, you need to set the speakers to "Small" and engage BM.

The SMS-1 can *only* EQ the subwoofer channel. It can NOT EQ the speakers. This is very important to realize. Any filters set above the crossover point will have little effect on the subwoofer output and minimal effect on the overall response. Limiting the range of the subwoofer channel by using a low crossover point, limits the range available for the SMS-1 to EQ. IOW, if you set a 60 Hz crossover, the SMS-1's EQ will only be effective to 60 Hz. Therefore, set the crossover as high as possible without localization of the subwoofer, which is almost always 80 Hz.

Page 42 of your manual, (see below), describes the Bass Management scenarios for your receiver. You can either use a "global" crossover for all "Small" speakers and the sub, or your receiver allows for different crossover frequency settings for the subwoofer and the speakers. The subwoofer crossover is really just an LPF, whereas the global crossover is an LPF and an HPF at the same frequency. IMO, you should use the same frequency for the HPF on the speakers and the LPF on the sub. Therefore, I recommend you use the global crossover setting of 80 Hz, for all speakers and the subwoofer. Also, set the "Stereo" mode to "Speakers = Small". This will engage Bass Management for 2-channel sources and make your subwoofer active for 2-channel content. This is *very* important for optimal EQ with the SMS-1, as described below.

The Phase Control on the SMS-1 is centered at 80 Hz. While it is better to use the receiver's distance setting to effect the response around the crossover point, if you do want to use the SMS-1's Phase Control, it will only be effective with an 80 Hz crossover.

3. Next, on the SMS-1, select Preset: Setup and set all EQ bands to 0. (A default reset is the easiest way to do this. See Page 41 of the SMS-1 User Manual, linked below.)

4. Set the SMS-1 Level to +15.
Reason:

This is the setting for "Unity Gain" in the SMS-1. The SMS-1 is not an amplifier. You don't want to use the SMS-1 to add gain to the signal. You want it to add or reduce the gain of various frequencies *relative* to the average level, but you don't want it to increase the overall average level. "Unity Gain" means that there is no gain across the device, and the output signal is the same level as the input signal.)

5. Set the Subwoofer Gain Level at it's lowest setting. (We'll turn it up later.)

6. Turn on the left front speaker test tone. Adjust the receiver's MVC so the left front speaker reads 75 dB* at the primary LP. This MVC setting will be the "Reference Level" setting from this point forward.** Remember it.

7. Without changing the MVC setting, shut off the left front speaker and turn on the subwoofer test tone. Turn up the gain on the subwoofer until the SPL meter at the primary LP reads 75 dB. The SMS-1 should also read an "average" level of about 75 dB. (Once you've set this, you should never need to adjust the subwoofer's gain setting again, unless you move the sub.)

8. Now, go back and calibrate all of the speakers to 75 dB at the primary LP. Use the receiver's trim controls as described on Page 43 & 44 of the manual. Once you've done this, your system is fully calibrated for levels, and all of the settings are optimized in each device.

9. Proceed with manual EQ with the SMS-1. Put the receiver into "Stereo" mode. EQ the sub in isolation, (with the speakers off or disconnected), getting it as flat as possible up to the rolloff point of the speaker/subwoofer crossover you set in the receiver.

(Remember that in Step 2 above, we set the "Stereo" output to engage Bass Management. Even though the speakers are off here, the bass from the L/R channels will still be re-directed to the sub.)



(Remember also that any slider bands set above the crossover point will be wasted, so move them all over into the range below the crossover point.)


10. Once the subwoofer is EQ'd, turn the subwoofer test tone back on and reset the level to 75 dB. However, this time use the SMS-1's level control to adjust the volume to 75 dB. This will reset the SMS-1 for exact Unity Gain.

11. Finally, turn the speakers back on and evaluate the response around crossover point. Adjust the subwoofer distance setting in the receiver to optimize the response around the crossover point.

12. Re-check the full system calibration to ensure all speakers and the sub are at 75 dB.

Once you've done the entire process above, you'll have a fully calibrated system with optimized frequency response of the subwoofer. I suggest you try to live with that system for a few days or weeks. Some people are so used to a bloated or "hot" subwoofer level that they feel the bass is "missing" with a true "calibrated" and Eq'd level. Nonetheless, once they re-acclimate themselves to "flat" bass response, they begin to hear detail and articulation in the bass that was previously overwhelmed by bass bloat and boom.

Having said that, some people just don't "like" a flat FR of the subwoofer, and they prefer a rising LF response. There is nothing wrong with that, and everyone is allowed their own preference. :) If you're one of those people, you have a few options. The first option is to just raise the MVC. This will raise the overall system output, but you should also get closer to the bass response you are looking for. (This also assumes that the rest of your system is up to the task. If it's not, don't try to get bass response at the expense of your speakers! :eek: )

If that is still not enough, and you want to raise the subwoofer's output above the rest of the system, I suggest you initiate the Submersive's DSP Program 2. This adds a rise in the response below about 40 Hz, with 3 dB added at about 20 Hz. This should add the feel and kick you are looking for. You can view the effect of Program 2 by watching the response on the SMS-1. It should look like a rising response above about 40 Hz.

If that's *still* not enough, the third option is to raise the SMS-1's level. This will take you above "Unity Gain" on the SMS-1, but *judicious* use of the control should not be problematic. 3 to 6 dB of level increase should be taken in stride by the Submersive.

If the above suggestions don't get you were you want to be, then the only hope for you is another Submersive or 2 or 3. :eek::)

Craig

Footnotes from #6 above:
*The Rotel uses -30 dBFS for it's test tones, so the test tones should read 75 dB on the SPL meter, ("Slow" setting and C-weighting.)

**The Rotel appears to be a "relative" MVC, (it goes from 0, (Off), to positive numbers), as opposed to an "absolute" MVC, which sets Reference Level at 0, and negative level settings indicate the dB below Reference Level.

Manuals:
http://velodyne.com/pdf/sms-1/sms-1_manual_english.pdf
http://www.rotel.com/content/manuals/rsp1570.pdf

Hi, did exactly what you said and did help a little, but i still have to turn the sub up from -32 to -24 to get any real kick maybe a little more to get what i like without it becoming over powering...

M&C Bluray?

Yes, the bluray.

Upon looking into it, M&C appears to have most of its big power at ~30 hz, which the svs made just fine. I need to find something I own which has significant sub 20hz material to really test this out

Yes, the bluray.

Upon looking into it, M&C appears to have most of its big power at ~30 hz, which the svs made just fine. I need to find something I own which has significant sub 20hz material to really test this out

Pop in the DVD. :eek: The blu ray has the low frequencies filtered out. :mad:

Yep the M&C Bluray version was neutered in the lower region. :eek:

Master & Commander BR vs DVD:

http://gickr.com/results4/anim_b6f68f4e-6fcb-6f14-85aa-344d630723dc.gif



You may want to try out War of the Worlds, Incredible Hulk 2008 and How to Train Your Dragon just to name a few.

It looks like 3:10 to yuma has the lowest bass of movies I own. Wife's asleep, but tomorrow I'll test it out.
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/118/12097839ut8.jpg
This scene should sound awesome

It looks like 3:10 to yuma has the lowest bass of movies I own. Wife's asleep, but tomorrow I'll test it out.

This scene should sound awesome

Your room is about the same size of mine as mine is like 15x15x8 and I have been thinking of going with a SubM HP or maybe going cheaper with something like a Rythmik FV15HP. If I got the Seaton I was hoping it would have tons of bass to spare in case I have a larger room later. How is your SubM HP sounding in your room?

Thanks,
Mike

Your room is about the same size of mine as mine is like 15x15x8 and I have been thinking of going with a SubM HP or maybe going cheaper with something like a Rythmik FV15HP. If I got the Seaton I was hoping it would have tons of bass to spare in case I have a larger room later. How is your SubM HP sounding in your room?

Thanks,
Mike

I am not Jparker but I have a similar size room as you with a SubMersive HP. I can tell you it is quite fun and I can highly recommend it. You will have a lot of headroom which is a good thing and you will be setup if you move to a larger room. Buy once and get what you really want with no regret. I don't think you will have any regret if you get the HP. For movies and music it sounds fantastic. I say go for it. The SQ is top notch IMHO. Pick any of the big bass movies and put it in your system when you get it. The smile should last long after the movie is done.

It is very very good, with seemingly limitless headroom. Flat down to 16hz without any issue at all, at every volume level I have checked. The rythmik would work I'm sure, but it feels good knowing that I have the best there is, and that no matter what happens w/ my room, I won't need to replace the sub.

I am not Jparker but I have a similar size room as you with a SubMersive HP. I can tell you it is quite fun and I can highly recommend it. You will have a lot of headroom which is a good thing and you will be setup if you move to a larger room. Buy once and get what you really want with no regret. I don't think you will have any regret if you get the HP. For movies and music it sounds fantastic. I say go for it. The SQ is top notch IMHO. Pick any of the big bass movies and put it in your system when you get it. The smile should last long after the movie is done.

It is very very good, with seemingly limitless headroom. Flat down to 16hz without any issue at all, at every volume level I have checked. The rythmik would work I'm sure, but it feels good knowing that I have the best there is, and that no matter what happens w/ my room, I won't need to replace the sub.

Thanks Guys,

Yeah, the current sub I have is a M&K MX-100 which is a sealed 12" 200 watt sub and I bought it new like 15+ years ago and it has developed a short in the volume control and might be on its last leg but unlike either a projector or HDTV I can see myself having the sub for a very long time so it makes sense to get the best you can afford because in the long run the extra you spend now will be well worth it over the long haul.

I have read about and seen the specs/pictures on the Terraform XL sub and read that they were possibly going to incorporate the same 6000 watt amp in the SubMersive HP. Does anyone know how much an upgrade like this will cost and would it be better to wait and buy a new Submersive HP with the new amp?....or am I asking questions that no one knows the answers to just yet? I ask this because I am probably around a month or 2 from being able to purchase.

Thanks again,
Mike

I have read about and seen the specs/pictures on the Terraform XL sub and read that they were possibly going to incorporate the same 6000 watt amp in the SubMersive HP. Does anyone know how much an upgrade like this will cost and would it be better to wait and buy a new Submersive HP with the new amp?....or am I asking questions that no one knows the answers to just yet? I ask this because I am probably around a month or 2 from being able to purchase.

Thanks again,
Mike

You might be confusing different Seaton Subs/products.

There's the following:

SubMersive - 1000Watts dual 15inch design
SubMersive HP - 2400Watts dual 15inch woofer design.

I dont think the others are for sale YET but last I remember reading that the
SubMersive XL/2 - may have ~ 6000Watts and will be a dual 18inch design.


I am not Jparker but I have a similar size room as you with a SubMersive HP. I can tell you it is quite fun and I can highly recommend it. You will have a lot of headroom which is a good thing and you will be setup if you move to a larger room. Buy once and get what you really want with no regret. I don't think you will have any regret if you get the HP. For movies and music it sounds fantastic. I say go for it. The SQ is top notch IMHO. Pick any of the big bass movies and put it in your system when you get it. The smile should last long after the movie is done.

+1. Could not have said it any better. I have a SubMersive HP in my 12'x12'x 8' room and love it!

I think the 6kw amp will be in the Submersive XL which will have dual opposed 18" drivers instead of 15".
That will likely not be out till the middle or end of the year.
If your M&K can hold out that long it will be a world beater, however the Submersive HP is already one if the best subs on the planet. It would be so much of an upgrade over your current sub I don't think words can do justice.
You could someday add a second one for FR smoothing and a bigger sweet spot but it would be out of desire not necessity.
For the number of Submersives sold there are almost never any on the used market unless someone's finances hit the shitter :)
Edit: Bunga you beat me to it about the XL!

You might be confusing different Seaton Subs/products.

There's the following:

SubMersive - 1000Watts dual 15inch design
SubMersive HP - 2400Watts dual 15inch woofer design.

I dont think the others are for sale YET but last I remember reading that the
SubMersive XL/2 - may have ~ 6000Watts and will be a dual 18inch design.



+1. Could not have said it any better. I have a SubMersive HP in my 12'x12'x 8' room and love it!

Ok, for some reason I was thinking I read you will be able to upgrade the Submersive HP with the 6k watt amp.....not that I would need it but for some with larger rooms you might. Sounds like the Submersive HP is the right one for my needs.


I think the 6kw amp will be in the Submersive XL which will have dual opposed 18" drivers instead of 15".
That will likely not be out till the middle or end of the year.
If your M&K can hold out that long it will be a world beater, however the Submersive HP is already one if the best subs on the planet. It would be so much of an upgrade over your current sub I don't think words can do justice.
You could someday add a second one for FR smoothing and a bigger sweet spot but it would be out of desire not necessity.
For the number of Submersives sold there are almost never any on the used market unless someone's finances hit the shitter
Edit: Bunga you beat me to it about the XL!

Yeah, I have been surprised the M&K sub has lasted so long but its days are numbered. I look forward to getting a SubM HP in the next few months.

Thanks,
Mike

Yeah, I have been surprised the M&K sub has lasted so long but its days are numbered. I look forward to getting a SubM HP in the next few months.

Thanks,
Mike
I have a friend who is using a pair of those same subs. They have great sound quality and very good output for the box and driver size. However, the Submersive is in another universe entirely. You won't regret getting a Submersive, even if Mark has something even more incredible coming out at some point.

Hi Guy,

Since the 230V HP will be available only around May 2012. Can I just get a 120V HP now and use a step down transformer will it affect the SQ?

When the 230V Amp available I will get the 230V amp and return the 120V amp, than they can sell to original subm owner for upgrade to HP.

Is it possible?

Marcus

Hi Guy,

Since the 230V HP will be available only around May 2012. Can I just get a 120V HP now and use a step down transformer will it affect the SQ?

When the 230V Amp available I will get the 230V amp and return the 120V amp, than they can sell to original subm owner for upgrade to HP.

Is it possible?

Marcus

That is possible, but you will need a large step down transformer, probably 2-3kW just to be safe, and I can only confirm is *should* work, even at 50Hz, but cannot guarantee that there won't be some other issues which might keep it from working properly.

It is certainly possible to upgrade to the new universal Voltage version of the HP amp, but there would be more cost involved. E-mail us and I'll see what I can come up with.

Ok, for some reason I was thinking I read you will be able to upgrade the Submersive HP with the 6k watt amp.....not that I would need it but for some with larger rooms you might. Sounds like the Submersive HP is the right one for my needs.

Hi Mike,

The guys are correct in their responses to this question. The 6kW amp is intended for other, larger products down the road. We are still waiting on the first production samples, so it will still be a while before we have it in a product.

That is possible, but you will need a large step down transformer, probably 2-3kW just to be safe, and I can only confirm is *should* work, even at 50Hz, but cannot guarantee that there won't be some other issues which might keep it from working properly.

It is certainly possible to upgrade to the new universal Voltage version of the HP amp, but there would be more cost involved. E-mail us and I'll see what I can come up with.

HI Mark,

Thanks, I will drop you a email and I would like to place order soon because the currency exchange is to my favour now.

Marcus

I have a friend who is using a pair of those same subs. They have great sound quality and very good output for the box and driver size. However, the Submersive is in another universe entirely. You won't regret getting a Submersive, even if Mark has something even more incredible coming out at some point.

Thanks Craig,

The M&K sub is very good for music but after 15 years the writing in on the wall for it to be retired and I think I have written on the wall, "Get a Submersive HP!!!!!" lol :)

Hi Mike,

The guys are correct in their responses to this question. The 6kW amp is intended for other, larger products down the road. We are still waiting on the first production samples, so it will still be a while before we have it in a product.

Thanks Mark,

I think I am about 3 weeks away from being able to purchase a Submersive HP from you and I plan on getting one in Black Maple. I have until March 12 to take advantage of the $100 shipping and to be able to get the Black Maple with no upgrade price, correct?

Thanks again,
Mike

Now is a great time to buy with the promo going on.

I'm absolutely in love with my SubM HP. The price was a bit tough to swallow coming from a $300 sub at first, but the difference in sound quality is easily worth the price. It just sounds so good, and rumbles a room that is in a basement and made with concrete just about.

I've started testing with/without my anti-mode connected to it (bypass mode), and it does very very well without the room correction even. Fantastic performer, and neighbors will max it out before I do.

Mike, I definitely think that the writing on the wall is correct. I have no doubts that the SubMersive HP will be a very nice upgrade. Not that the M&K sub is a "bad" sub. There is an early adopter who I think had an all M&K system, including subs. He upgraded and I don't think he ever looked back. I don't think you will either. The HP is a great sub that is equal in music and HT playback. I really think that going from that 12in sub to an HP will be quite the fun experience for you. I know it was for me when I went from my old sub to the SubMersive.

Mike, I definitely think that the writing on the wall is correct. I have no doubts that the SubMersive HP will be a very nice upgrade. Not that the M&K sub is a "bad" sub. There is an early adopter who I think had an all M&K system, including subs. He upgraded and I don't think he ever looked back. I don't think you will either. The HP is a great sub that is equal in music and HT playback. I really think that going from that 12in sub to an HP will be quite the fun experience for you. I know it was for me when I went from my old sub to the SubMersive.

Now I just have to get all of my framed posters that are hanging on the wall with just nails velcroed so they won't fall and smash. :eek:

We are still waiting on the first production samples, so it will still be a while before we have it in a product.

would this mean 'summer' a while:D or 'fall' a while? :)please don't say 'next year' a while :(

would this mean 'summer' a while:D or 'fall' a while? :)please don't say 'next year' a while :(

I means whenever the amp is ready to ship. :p It is closer than it ever has been, but all the technology and optimization in the rather advanced power supply design has required a lot of tweaking to cover the wide range of possible use and power input ranges. While it's tempting to get it out as soon as I have one in my hands, I will still be doing a good bit of torture testing and testing in different environments on my own to help reduce the chance of any oversight being discovered after we have a few dozen across an ocean or two.

So Mark, is the new amp going to be the kind that specifically needs a 230v 20 amp outlet to attain that 6k output? IOW, is it going to be like amps from some other companies that have variable power output depending on what they're fed by ( eg. 6,000watts when plugged into 230/240v 20 amp outlets, but only 3000-4000 watts from 110/120v ?).


Max

I means whenever the amp is ready to ship. :p It is closer than it ever has been, but all the technology and optimization in the rather advanced power supply design has required a lot of tweaking to cover the wide range of possible use and power input ranges. While it's tempting to get it out as soon as I have one in my hands, I will still be doing a good bit of torture testing and testing in different environments on my own to help reduce the chance of any oversight being discovered after we have a few dozen across an ocean or two.

Mark,

Do you know an approximate price range for the SubMersive XL/2?

Sorry just found this response in a thread on your forum
"Since I'm already seeing questions about pricing, I'm still expecting somewhere between $3495-4295 plus veneer options depending on the specific option I settle on. To be clear, this is a 2012 product, and no, I'm not taking orders on them yet!"

Now a 6,000 watt sub is coming? 2400 watts for the HP seemed like a lot, especially compared to my former 400 watt M&K MPS 5410. Would love to hear a 6,000 watt subwoofer in action!

I was under the impression that a good portion of the data on a blu ray is audio. Why the low frequencies would be axed out in the blu ray version is beyond me. If the DVD has the better audio, then we might as well be back in the year 2000.

Pop in the DVD. :eek: The blu ray has the low frequencies filtered out. :mad:

^^^

you are under the wrong impression... :)

Now a 6,000 watt sub is coming? 2400 watts for the HP seemed like a lot, especially compared to my former 400 watt M&K MPS 5410. Would love to hear a 6,000 watt subwoofer in action!

Just for fun I Googled IMAX sub wattage (http://www.tnaqua.com/Newsroom/IMAXtech.asp) and got stuff like this -

The sound system:
Powered by 12,000 watts, enough to run 120 100-watt home stereos.


The six-channel, high-fidelity IMAX loudspeaker system with sub-bass uses 44 speakers clustered behind the screen and at the rear and middle of the theater.


So unless I am reading that wrong that would be half the wattage of an entire IMAX theater.

Curious, because this is what I was told with the alleged "audio expert" at a major company where I live. Are they giving us better video on a blu ray but foresaking audio quality on most blu ray movies?

^^^

you are under the wrong impression... :)

It would be interesting to know what an energy bill would look like with Catalyst 12C's for the mains, Catalyst 8C's for the side surrounds, Sparks for the rear surrounds and a 6,000 watt submersive playing each day. I am sure I would be the neighbor's best friend after he hears a 6,000 watt subwoofer going to work :D

Just for fun I Googled IMAX sub wattage (http://www.tnaqua.com/Newsroom/IMAXtech.asp) and got stuff like this -

The sound system:
Powered by 12,000 watts, enough to run 120 100-watt home stereos.


The six-channel, high-fidelity IMAX loudspeaker system with sub-bass uses 44 speakers clustered behind the screen and at the rear and middle of the theater.


So unless I am reading that wrong that would be half the wattage of an entire IMAX theater.

Curious, because this is what I was told with the alleged "audio expert" at a major company where I live. Are they giving us better video on a blu ray but foresaking audio quality on most blu ray movies?

Not at all, bluray has vastly superior audio vs dvd. And better video as well. It just happens that on m&c, when they remixed for the bluray, they cut out the sub 30hz signal. nobody knows why from what I can tell.

Curious, because this is what I was told with the alleged "audio expert" at a major company where I live. Are they giving us better video on a blu ray but foresaking audio quality on most blu ray movies?

good thing you noted "alleged"... :p m&c is a specific example where the dvd reaches lower than the bd... :)

forsaking audio quality? nah...

Just for fun I Googled IMAX sub wattage (http://www.tnaqua.com/Newsroom/IMAXtech.asp) and got stuff like this -

The sound system:
Powered by 12,000 watts, enough to run 120 100-watt home stereos.

The six-channel, high-fidelity IMAX loudspeaker system with sub-bass uses 44 speakers clustered behind the screen and at the rear and middle of the theater.

So unless I am reading that wrong that would be half the wattage of an entire IMAX theater.

Unless you have an 11 all Seaton speaker system ( 3 Cats, 4 SubMersive HPs and 4 Sparks) for a total of a tad over i17,000 watts. Can we say "over-kill" for a 3800 cf room?

LOTS of headroom :-)

Thanks for the responses guys - good to know :)

Not at all, bluray has vastly superior audio vs dvd. And better video as well. It just happens that on m&c, when they remixed for the bluray, they cut out the sub 30hz signal. nobody knows why from what I can tell.

good thing you noted "alleged"... :p m&c is a specific example where the dvd reaches lower than the bd... :)

forsaking audio quality? nah...

Just for fun I Googled IMAX sub wattage (http://www.tnaqua.com/Newsroom/IMAXtech.asp) and got stuff like this -

The sound system:
Powered by 12,000 watts, enough to run 120 100-watt home stereos.


The six-channel, high-fidelity IMAX loudspeaker system with sub-bass uses 44 speakers clustered behind the screen and at the rear and middle of the theater.


So unless I am reading that wrong that would be half the wattage of an entire IMAX theater.

Hmmmm... let's see...

2 x BP3000tl = 3,600 watts
4 x BP2004 = 500 watts
1 x C/L/R 3000 = 150 watts
1 x Submersive HP = 2,400 watts

For a total of 6,650 watts. So unless I'm reading that wrong, that's *MORE* than half the wattage of an entire IMAX theater. :eek:

So what's your point??? :confused:

So what's your point??? :confused:

Just kind of a interesting comparison of the 6000 watt sub relative to an IMAX. Or so I thought. Feel free to skip by. :)

I think it is cool to consider that a home theater can even be mentioned in the same sentence as an IMAX theater :)

So, will the Submersive HP and the upcoming 6,000 watt XL2 compliment each other in a 7.2 or 5.2 setup, or would the different size woofers in the 2 subs create some conflict? In other words, if you were to have 2 subs in a system, is it better to have identical subs?

I've asked Mark that very question. He said it will be no problem running them together. He basically said the SubM XL should perform like 2 stacked SubM HP's (or at least that's the goal....I think).

I was going to run (when it comes available) the XL up front and use the HP in the back or side wall to smooth out the bass. Mark said this would work very well. Now all we have to do is wait for the XL or the 2 or whatever he names the beast!

I think it is cool to consider that a home theater can even be mentioned in the same sentence as an IMAX theater :)



Besides it gave the boys a chance at their monthly recounting of their waistage wattage. :p :D

Besides it gave the boys a chance at their monthly recounting of their waistage wattage. :p :D

Theirs??? How 'bout the waistage of wattage in your mains? :D

But my wattage is put to better use than your wattage and I need less because of an all enclosed dedicated room. And my Daddy can whup your Daddy. :D

But my wattage is put to better use than your wattage and I need less because of an all enclosed dedicated room. And my Daddy can whup your Daddy. :D
:rolleyes:

Let's see, mains & center with 6 surrounds = 4800 watts. Then dual Turbo MFW's for another 2000 and next week adding dual Submersive HP's for 4800, so all of that is 9800 peak watts. Never use it but it's fun to think about.

I've asked Mark that very question. He said it will be no problem running them together. He basically said the SubM XL should perform like 2 stacked SubM HP's (or at least that's the goal....I think).

I was going to run (when it comes available) the XL up front and use the HP in the back or side wall to smooth out the bass. Mark said this would work very well. Now all we have to do is wait for the XL or the 2 or whatever he names the beast!

So there is really one uber SubMersive. That is the dual 18in job with the 6000 watt amp correct? We just don't know the designation yet. Whether it will be the SubMersive XL or SubMersive 2. Again, if we are takng votes, I say the Dual 18in SubMersive should be the SubMersive XL(extra large). The SubMersive 2 could be an even newer version of the regular SubMersive or HP. Or Drop the possibility of a 2 all together and have the following:

1. Regular SubMersive-Dual 15in drivers sealed(1000 watts)
2. SubMersive HP Dual-15in drivers sealed(2400 watts)
3. SubMersive XL Dual-18in driver sealed (6,000 watts)
4. Terraform-One 15in one 18in radiator(6000 watts)
5. Terraform XL-Dual powered 15's and dual 18in radiators(6000 watts)
Am I correct with the above descriptions?

I think if you can get that lineup to production, it represent some serious woofage. But these are just the ramblings of one man who is quite happy with a SubMersive HP. But I do think the XL vs 2 is better. It helps me to understand that those are extra large versions of the "standard" subs.

So there is really one uber SubMersive. That is the dual 18in job with the 6000 watt amp correct? We just don't know the designation yet. Whether it will be the SubMersive XL or SubMersive 2. Again, if we are takng votes, I say the Dual 18in SubMersive should be the SubMersive XL(extra large). The SubMersive 2 could be an even newer version of the regular SubMersive or HP. Or Drop the possibility of a 2 all together and have the following:

1. Regular SubMersive-Dual 15in drivers sealed(1000 watts)
2. SubMersive HP Dual-15in drivers sealed(2400 watts)
3. SubMersive XL Dual-18in driver sealed (6,000 watts)
4. Terraform-One 15in one 18in radiator(6000 watts)
5. Terraform XL-Dual powered 15's and dual 18in radiators(6000 watts)
Am I correct with the above descriptions?

I think if you can get that lineup to production, it represent some serious woofage. But these are just the ramblings of one man who is quite happy with a SubMersive HP. But I do think the XL vs 2 is better. It helps me to understand that those are extra large versions of the "standard" subs.

I still dont understand why someone would buy one ginormous sub versus 2 (at slightly higher price) and get the flexibility of placement options to smooth out bass response ?

I still dont understand why someone would buy one ginormous sub versus 2 (at slightly higher price) and get the flexibility of placement options to smooth out bass response ?

How about two ginormouse and a little one.....or four little ones, if you want to call em' little.

I still dont understand why someone would buy one ginormous sub versus 2 (at slightly higher price) and get the flexibility of placement options to smooth out bass response ?

I would have to imagine that even in some bigger rooms then mine, placement would still be an issue. Maybe, no matter how hard they try, people can only find one spot for a sub but they still need the output because the have a massive space to fill. Plus, after a while, even if there is space(corners) they will get filled up. These bigger more powerfull options would allow people to get 2 of them rather than 3-4 of the smaller ones. I still have to think that setting up two subs, regardless of size, is easier then setting up 4 or even more smaller subs. Even in my small room, some people might call for dual subs. HP's even. But I simply don't have the space so I have to rely on good starting placement and use of two EQ's. I am sure I am not the only person who has this issue.

Don't get me wrong, your point is taken and understood. It's just that everyone has different needs and differenct circumstances. Some people may just not want to have 4 subs and would like just to have subs, that will do the job. There are people who are not put off by the size either. I think these are the people the monsters are desinged for. But that is just my guess:).

Personally I would add two more Submersive HP's and run 4 HP's rather than dual XL's but I know that's not possible for everyone.
It's nice to have lots of high quality options.
Tim

Hmmmm... let's see...

2 x BP3000tl = 3,600 watts
4 x BP2004 = 500 watts
1 x C/L/R 3000 = 150 watts
1 x Submersive HP = 2,400 watts

For a total of 6,650 watts. So unless I'm reading that wrong, that's *MORE* than half the wattage of an entire IMAX theater. :eek:

So what's your point??? :confused:

I just realized that's my setup !!! I continue to be amazed how you pay more attention to my stuff than I do! I just sit here and watch the damn movies. It looks like I am far back on the leaderboard though and need to be accumulating some more wattage! :D

Don't forget that some speaker designs such as horns take a lot less power.

I just realized that's my setup !!!
No subtlety is lost on you, is it Gary?

The more it matters the more I pay attention. ;)

How about two ginormouse and a little one.....or four little ones, if you want to call em' little.

There you go !!!!!

I am currently living in an apartment and I am looking for a house to set up a home theater. The hope is to fill the house's largest room with Seaton speakers. Anyone care to comment on the ideal room size for running dual Submersive HP's, along with Catalyst 12C's for the mains, 8C's for the side surrounds, and sparks for the rear surrounds?

^^^

big...

i'd worry about dimensions more than size when it comes to your room... ;)

Yep, I have been researching room size as well. The link I discovered on AVS is : http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

There are a few "ideal" ratios of room height, width, and length that professional studio designers agree should be used if possible. Three of these ratios, developed by L.W. Sepmeyer, are shown in Table 2.

Height Width Length
1.00 1.14 1.39
1.00 1.28 1.54
1.00 1.60 2.33

Table 2: The ideal room has a ratio of height, width, and length similar to one of these.


Most ceilings I find are in the 7.5 foot range, which means the above chart would break down as follows:

7.5 ft high x 8.55 ft x 10.425 ft
7.5 ft high x 9.6 ft x 11.55 ft
7.5 ft high x 12 ft x 17.47 ft

I actually think that the first two room sizes appear quite small. I am looking to put a 92" TV in my home theater, so I think the room would have to be at least 12 x 17.5 inches to make the room work right.

Hmmmm... let's see...

2 x BP3000tl = 3,600 watts
4 x BP2004 = 500 watts
1 x C/L/R 3000 = 150 watts
1 x Submersive HP = 2,400 watts

For a total of 6,650 watts. So unless I'm reading that wrong, that's *MORE* than half the wattage of an entire IMAX theater. :eek:

So what's your point??? :confused:

if he's running everything large then it's only 2400 watts going to the LFE channel

if he's running them small, none of the def tech watts would count anyway (or very little)

I just realized that's my setup !!! I continue to be amazed how you pay more attention to my stuff than I do! I just sit here and watch the damn movies. It looks like I am far back on the leaderboard though and need to be accumulating some more wattage! :D

craig has a secret love for def tech. you'll have to excuse him :D

craig has a secret love for def tech. you'll have to excuse him :D
:) ;)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's just that Gary makes these flippant comments about things like a new 6 kilowatt Seaton amp having "half the wattage of an entire IMAX theater." His implication was that it wasn't needed and 'waisted", (his spelling), in an HT the size of most of ours. Yet, if you add up the wattage he uses to drive woofers/subwoofers in his own HT, it's MORE than that.

Hence why I asked, "What's your point?"

BTW, Gary, if you apply 6 kilowatts to your "waist", you'll likely electrocute yourself. And that would be such a "waste". :D

Craig

:) ;)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's just that Gary makes these flippant comments about things like a new 6 kilowatt Seaton amp having "half the wattage of an entire IMAX theater." His implication was that it wasn't needed and 'waisted", (his spelling), in an HT the size of most of ours. Yet, if you add up the wattage he uses to drive woofers/subwoofers in his own HT, it's MORE than that.

Hence why I asked, "What's your point?"

BTW, Gary, if you apply 6 kilowatts to your "waist", you'll likely electrocute yourself. And that would be such a "waste". :D

Craig

cool

I've got a DT setup as well (Mythos Supertowers) looking to add a Seaton to the DT Supercube Reference

The DT SCR is nice, I was watching Pirates of the Caribbean scene with the ship battle and the bass was great and when the ship exploded I heard nothing :wtf: not sure if it was the PS3 (panny bdt3xx is in the basement) or the receiver or the sub but I was expecting my house to shake

:) ;)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's just that Gary makes these flippant comments about things like a new 6 kilowatt Seaton amp having "half the wattage of an entire IMAX theater." His implication was that it wasn't needed and 'waisted", (his spelling), in an HT the size of most of ours. Yet, if you add up the wattage he uses to drive woofers/subwoofers in his own HT, it's MORE than that.

Hence why I asked, "What's your point?"

BTW, Gary, if you apply 6 kilowatts to your "waist", you'll likely electrocute yourself. And that would be such a "waste". :D

Craig

yup, maybe he just needs a little help understanding what that 6k is going to be doing with dual 18's down in the single digits

he needs to understand that the XL/2 is not just going to be a louder sub-m. that 6k is going to be moving furniture around and flexing the room in the 5-20hz range

he needs to understand

What I do understand is in my room (100% dedicated movie HT) I would trade my Def Tech/HP setup for no other setup I have heard anywhere else. ;)

What I do understand is in my room (100% dedicated movie HT) I would trade my Def Tech/HP setup for no other setup I have heard anywhere else. ;)

you need to hear Craig's

Luv this quote from over in the Audyssey thread-


Just my personal view, but saying that setting x-over at 80 makes full range speakers, at least for L/R, irrelevant is missing half the equation. That half being from, say, 80-300. I still live by my old rule - subs work best with speakers that don't need them.

lol

you need to hear Craig's

Naaaaa... He's happy with his own system. It would be a "waist" of his time. :D:D:D

Ok here is the real answer :rolleyes:

I have

http://magicalpenny.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/zero-interest.png

Luv this quote from over in the Audyssey thread-

"Just my personal view, but saying that setting x-over at 80 makes full range speakers, at least for L/R, irrelevant is missing half the equation. That half being from, say, 80-300. I still live by my old rule - subs work best with speakers that don't need them."


lol

Luv Roger's retort! :D

Would make a nice bumper sticker. Not sure it has merit wrt optimizing a home theater system. :p

Craig, where do you have your crossovers set?

Craig, where do you have your crossovers set?

let's see how good my memory is

i believe he used to use 80hz when he had duals but found when he added the 3rd sub-m he got a smoother response with 100hz

I have my single crossed over at 90Hz right now and there is a poster in the speaker forum telling me that's dumb because I would lose "stereo imaging" by not crossing the mains over at 60Hz. I didn't think "stereo imaging" was an issue down around the <100Hz frequencies.

I have my single crossed over at 90Hz right now and there is a poster in the speaker forum telling me that's dumb because I would lose "stereo imaging" by not crossing the mains over at 60Hz. I didn't think "stereo imaging" was an issue down around the <100Hz frequencies.

Tell him to come over and blindly pick when it is crossed over at 60.

You can also mess with him by making both listening sessions crossed @ 80 ;)
Tim

Craig, where do you have your crossovers set?

let's see how good my memory is

i believe he used to use 80hz when he had duals but found when he added the 3rd sub-m he got a smoother response with 100hz

Great memory! :) That was exactly what I was doing back with the Atlantic Technology speakers. :)

I've since changed speakers. The new speakers work better with 80 Hz crossovers. They have dual 10" woofers and they have STRONG bass down to 80 Hz. However, they're an "LCR" design with a -3 dB point of 60 Hz. Because they're a sealed design, they roll off pretty shallow. So, even though they're physically "large" speakers, they're designed to be used with Bass Management and crossovers.

Here's the FR:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=214682&d=1307926221


Craig

:oLuv Roger's retort! :D

Really have better things to do but I'll blow one more minute here. Yeah Roger really buried him with the facts. Well some some facts. Uh, not so much as a single fact. puhlease.

Would make a nice bumper sticker. Not sure it has merit wrt optimizing a home theater system. :p

Who is using Audyssey XT32 with the Submersive? And is there any issues with the sub(s) output?

Thanx, Bill

I've had issues with Audyssey killing the SubM's output with MultiEQ XT and the AS-EQ1.

Are you having issues? or is this more of a general inquiry?

We see reports like this from time to time, "Audyssey killed my bass." However, it's rarely accompanied by measurements, and without those measurements, we have no way of knowing the listener's frame of reference. Far all we know, the listener could be acclimated to bass that is extremely "hot", to the point that when he/she hears "flat" bass, it sounds like it's been "killed".

Crabalocker, did you measure the response to see if it was flat? Also, were you using Dynamic EQ?

Bill, do you have any way to measure your response? I am using XT 32 and you can see my FR a few posts up.

Craig

Crabalocker, did you measure the response to see if it was flat? Also, were you using Dynamic EQ?

I was using the Omnimic but in all fairness, I haven't used it all that much and not really sure if I was using it correct.

Yea the response was pretty flat but it was odd. When I would run Audyssey with my SvS Ultra then did a clean swap with the SubM, it sounded much better and with greater authority than when I ran Audyssey with the SubM.

The graphs being displayed looked very similar but the output and the quality of the bass was greatly affected. More so than the graphs would indicate.

I lent my Omnimic to a fellow forum member so I can't check to see if there was a greater difference in the graphs than which my brain remembers. As soon as I get the Omnimic back I'll re-do everything again and see. It's probably me that did something wrong as I am no expert when it comes to audio, especially Audyssey.

No I didn't have dynamic EQ on when I measured with the Omnimic but I do use dynamic EQ because I much prefer a 'House Curve', that and I don't listen at or near reference volume. I only do when I show off the SubMersive;)

I'm just curious if bsoko2 is having issues also or if his post was more of an inquiry.

I use XT32 with my SubM HP. Somewhere in here are my REW graphs including the difference switching between prgm1 and prgm2 when the system is calibrated in prgm1.

As folks have stated, very often, claims of "Audyssey killed my bass" come from folks unaccustomed to flat bass. I've seen folks run Audyssey flat bass plus a 12db house curve boost. Talk about a serious basshead.

I WILL confirm though, that it is possible for Audyssey calibration to legitimately kill the bass if the calibration mic is not adequately decoupled from vibrations. I had this happen when I first used a boom mic stand on a sprung wooden floor. The bass travelled through the floor and up the mic stand to the mic, leading the measurement to believe there was way more bass than the reality. I noticed that and the fact that the sub distances were off. After creating my own solution for decoupling the mic, a simple recalibration and everything was back to normal.


Max

I am in the same boat as Crabalocker regarding limited experience with omni mic. I have an omni mic but I'm not sure the best way to use it. Is there a thread someone can point to that gives the basics on what to do and what to look for or a standardized approach to using the omni mic?

For instance, do you just put the mic at the main listening position? Or try multiple mic points and look for an average? Do you take a reading, move the sub, take a reading, move the sub, etc? Do you focus only on the low end or run graphs on the whole spectrum? Any pointers on getting started with omni mic for someone without much of a math or engineering background?

I was using the Omnimic but in all fairness, I haven't used it all that much and not really sure if I was using it correct.

Yea the response was pretty flat but it was odd. When I would run Audyssey with my SvS Ultra then did a clean swap with the SubM, it sounded much better and with greater authority than when I ran Audyssey with the SubM.

The graphs being displayed looked very similar but the output and the quality of the bass was greatly affected. More so than the graphs would indicate.

I lent my Omnimic to a fellow forum member so I can't check to see if there was a greater difference in the graphs than which my brain remembers. As soon as I get the Omnimic back I'll re-do everything again and see. It's probably me that did something wrong as I am no expert when it comes to audio, especially Audyssey.

No I didn't have dynamic EQ on when I measured with the Omnimic but I do use dynamic EQ because I much prefer a 'House Curve', that and I don't listen at or near reference volume. I only do when I show off the SubMersive;)

I'm just curious if bsoko2 is having issues also or if his post was more of an inquiry.

Just FYI, in case you weren't aware, there is an extensive Audyssey Setup Guide that is very helpful:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895

If you are having issues with Audyssey and your Submersive, please post them here. Mark is very savvy when it comes to Audyssey, and there are several other members who can also help. I have found Audyssey XT32 extremely beneficial, as have many other SubM owners and forum members. However, it can be a little quirky to implement. If you post your OmniMic graphs, we can try to help you figure out what is going on.

Craig

I am in the same boat as Crabalocker regarding limited experience with omni mic. I have an omni mic but I'm not sure the best way to use it. Is there a thread someone can point to that gives the basics on what to do and what to look for or a standardized approach to using the omni mic?

For instance, do you just put the mic at the main listening position? Or try multiple mic points and look for an average? Do you take a reading, move the sub, take a reading, move the sub, etc? Do you focus only on the low end or run graphs on the whole spectrum? Any pointers on getting started with omni mic for someone without much of a math or engineering background?

Simple way to use measurement tools for audio optimization. Use the RTA (Real Time Analyzer) function to measure the frequency response as you place the sub(s) on sliders and look for the most even frequency response. Measure ONLY the sub channel from ~10Hz to 150Hz.

Select the 3 sub locations with the most even FR at the MLP. Measure the FR at the other seating positions. Find the sub placements that show the least deviation in FR between all the seating positions. Note that this may not be the flattest FR, but the lowest in-room deviation you can get between multiple measuring locations, the easier it is for Audyssey to do its thing.


Max

I use XT32 with my SubM HP. Somewhere in here are my REW graphs including the difference switching between prgm1 and prgm2 when the system is calibrated in prgm1.

Max

here is one I did the other day -
XT32 works wonders in my room - I find the filtering so advanced
nowadays in the low end, you get lazy. Can pretty much set them anywhere's and let Audyssey clean it up.
you young guys are spoiled - I remember taking days (weeks)
to get subs sounding decent.
takes 20 minutes now

graph is 1/24 smoothing
black - no eq
red - 8 point Audyssey
orange - PGM2 engaged

Simple way to use measurement tools for audio optimization. Use the RTA (Real Time Analyzer) function to measure the frequency response as you place the sub(s) on sliders and look for the most even frequency response. Measure ONLY the sub channel from ~10Hz to 150Hz.

Select the 3 sub locations with the most even FR at the MLP. Measure the FR at the other seating positions. Find the sub placements that show the least deviation in FR between all the seating positions. Note that this may not be the flattest FR, but the lowest in-room deviation you can get between multiple measuring locations, the easier it is for Audyssey to do its thing.


Max

Sweet. Thanks for the tip. I'm going to try this this weekend.

Sweet. Thanks for the tip. I'm going to try this this weekend.

Great advice from Max. One more... wear earplugs. RTA noise is loud, annoying and potentially ear damaging. Have fun!

Craig

Just more of a general inquiry. And for a real cheap improvement that you can make for your HT listening is to get the wax blown out of your ears by your doctor. I myself use a ear wax kit from the local druggest and that does the trick. I use it every quarter.

Thanx, Bill

Just more of a general inquiry.l

:( I thought maybe I was on to something. I guess ...it's just me:o

My dual Submersives came this morning and I am now just finishing my HT setup with MCACC. The initial calibration of those subs is the best that I have heard so far from any dual setup. I'll be pounding them all the rest of the week.

My dual Submersives came this morning and I am now just finishing my HT setup with MCACC. The initial calibration of those subs is the best that I have heard so far from any dual setup. I'll be pounding them all the rest of the week.

congrats !!!!

i like your sig :p

And for a real cheap improvement that you can make for your HT listening is to get the wax blown out of your ears by your doctor. I myself use a ear wax kit from the local druggest and that does the trick. I use it every quarter.

Thanx, Bill
Ear(beeswax,etc) candles are much better than any kit. I've used them on my family for nearly a decade.

My dual Submersives came this morning and I am now just finishing my HT setup with MCACC. The initial calibration of those subs is the best that I have heard so far from any dual setup. I'll be pounding them all the rest of the week.


Make sure you post some pics.

Thanks

My dual Submersives came this morning and I am now just finishing my HT setup with MCACC. The initial calibration of those subs is the best that I have heard so far from any dual setup. I'll be pounding them all the rest of the week.

That's AWESOME Bill. You have so much experience with so many different subs, and so many different EQ systems, it will be interesting to see what you think of the SubM's. Welcome to the club! :)

Craig

^^
Congrats Bill.
I feel the same way about my Submersives. They'd have to be pried from my cold, dead hands, they are that good!
I remember the music binge I went on after getting them dialed in. I thought it would never end.
Enjoy.
Tim

Good stuff Bill. Looking forward to hearing some detailed thoughts after you spend some time with them.

Fun hobby, spent too much money on it all so time to enjoy it and quit the upgrading.

Bill

I think I've heard THAT story before. ---- from me!

Enjoy your subs !!!

Have fun with subs bsoko2 and then you start wondering about his speakers ,
then starts all over again

I think I've heard THAT story before. ---- from me!

Enjoy your subs !!!
You're done now, right? :D:D:D

I think I've heard THAT story before. ---- from me!

Enjoy your subs !!!

As I think this while I'm contemplating selling my Pioneer 1121k and Anti-mode for the Denon 4311. Nevermind the thousands I just spent on my new JBL 7.0 package and Submersive.

As I think this while I'm contemplating selling my Pioneer 1121k and Anti-mode for the Denon 4311. Nevermind the thousands I just spent on my new JBL 7.0 package and Submersive.

I prefer MCACC with the Anti Mode over Audyssey. For me the MCACC SQ is better.

I prefer MCACC with the Anti Mode over Audyssey. For me the MCACC SQ is better.

Wow, that's the first I've heard someone say that. I may not need to upgrade after all. I don't need any more channels than 7.1 atm.

Wow, that's the first I've heard someone say that. I may not need to upgrade after all. I don't need any more channels than 7.1 atm.

If you stay with Pioneer you should step up to the Elite SC series.

You're done now, right? :D:D:D

For today!

We see reports like this from time to time, "Audyssey killed my bass." However, it's rarely accompanied by measurements, and without those measurements, we have no way of knowing the listener's frame of reference. Far all we know, the listener could be acclimated to bass that is extremely "hot", to the point that when he/she hears "flat" bass, it sounds like it's been "killed".

Crabalocker, did you measure the response to see if it was flat? Also, were you using Dynamic EQ?

Bill, do you have any way to measure your response? I am using XT 32 and you can see my FR a few posts up.

Craig

I have issues with Early Audyssey (bugs) in my Onkyo 805 killing the bass. The rerference in my case was Mark Seatons calibratrion on a DCX 2496. So I was comparing Marks setup to Audysseys The end result is that regardless of whether I use the DCX 2496 or not the BASS is neutered. The bass below 40Hz is significantly attentuated,, not slightly but sounds massively different, all the impact is gone. I posted graphs a while ago and both graphs show relatively flat FR that look very very similar but they dont sound similar at all. This issue does not occur on the Onkyo 876 or a Onkyo 509. It seems they have corrected thi BUG this because in the same room using the same gear you get very different results. On work around on the older gear is to turn the sub on and off after calibration. it resets the bass EQ it seems while still proving EQ above the crossover freq.

Just Did a friends room with a Onkyo 3009 running XT32 with great results. time to upgrade to the 805 here in the utah theater to something with XT32.

I have issues with Early Audyssey (bugs) in my Onkyo 805 killing the bass. The rerference in my case was Mark Seatons calibratrion on a DCX 2496. So I was comparing Marks setup to Audysseys The end result is that regardless of whether I use the DCX 2496 or not the BASS is neutered. The bass below 40Hz is significantly attentuated,, not slightly but sounds massively different, all the impact is gone. I posted graphs a while ago and both graphs show relatively flat FR that look very very similar but they dont sound similar at all. This issue does not occur on the Onkyo 876 or a Onkyo 509. It seems they have corrected thi BUG this because in the same room using the same gear you get very different results. On work around on the older gear is to turn the sub on and off after calibration. it resets the bass EQ it seems while still proving EQ above the crossover freq.

Just Did a friends room with a Onkyo 3009 running XT32 with great results. time to upgrade to the 805 here in the utah theater to something with XT32.

Hmmmmmmm.....I had Very similar issues with my Onkyo 805. If it was not for the Audio ToolKit that came with the SubMersive, I would have completely given up on Audyssey XT. You can read about my Audyssey XT issue here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=21436686&postcount=133)

Hmmmmmmm.....I had Very similar issues with my Onkyo 805. If it was not for the Audio ToolKit that came with the SubMersive, I would have completely given up on Audyssey XT. You can read about my Audyssey XT issue here ([URL="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=21436686&postcount=133)

linky no work.

I use the gold line disc extensively but don't see how it can solve this problem but am interested.

Sorry about that....just fixed the link.

Sorry about that....just fixed the link.

OK read that. Not my issue from my memories of my previous calibrarions. my levels are very comparable between those two sources. I tried turning up the gain and its still broken. I'm glad I figured the workaround I described a long time ago. Its a software bug that I have clearly proven to myself thats been fixed. Next time I re-run audyssey I will double check the DVD levels but I remember them being within 1-2 db.

well I'm glad I'm not the only one! maybe there's an issue with the Denon3312 and Audyssey XT.

It does something really strange to my SubMersive and my work around seems to work. I hope Multi EQ XT32 works a little better.....come on 4313!

well I'm glad I'm not the only one! maybe there's an issue with the Denon3312 and Audyssey XT.

It does something really strange to my SubMersive and my work around seems to work. I hope Multi EQ XT32 works a little better.....come on 4313!

I just upgraded to the 4311. I'll let u know how xt32 works in comparison to what I know, mcacc and anti mode.

well hopefully it works better than XT!

The 4311 is supposed to be pretty nice, I hope you like it.

I posted my impressions of XT32 a while back:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19463382#post19463382
It clearly did not have a negative impact on my bass response.

Craig

I posted my impressions of XT32 a while back:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19463382#post19463382
It clearly did not have a negative impact on my bass response.

Craig

I run a 4311 (XT32) with my Duals and have been very pleased as well.
Tim

If you have any issues with any version of Audyssey try following the Audyssey Setup Guide (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895). People having success with it are in the vast majority.

I too can say the XT32 in my 80.2 did not impact bass in a negative way. As a matter of fact, setup properly, the bass has never sounded better.

add me to the list of happy xt32 users... :)

I run my gear 12 to 16 hours a day and the Submersive has one of the coolest (temp wise) amps that I have ever had.

Hi Guy,

I'm using the Onkyo 886 without the XT32. I intend to use the funds to get Dual Submersive HP and upgrade to XT32 at later date.

So if I get the BFD Feedback Destroyer DSP1124P for the dual subs do I have similar result of upgrading to XT32?

Thanks
Marcus

Marcus, I would say that XT32 does great things for the subs, but instead of working only on the subs, it works on the entire system. Now this I don't know for a fact, but, XT32 may be more sophisticatedas well in how it deals with the subs and the rest of your system. Unless you have some unusual room issues, you may not need the FBD. Now I did need the SMS-1 to help out with an issue but I think I am the exception, not the rule.

Hi Guy,

I'm using the Onkyo 886 without the XT32. I intend to use the funds to get Dual Submersive HP and upgrade to XT32 at later date.

So if I get the BFD Feedback Destroyer DSP1124P for the dual subs do I have similar result of upgrading to XT32?

Thanks
Marcus

Try the anti mode 8033. A lot less hassle. Just plug and play. Works great with my seaton. Just a thought

Try the anti mode 8033. A lot less hassle. Just plug and play. Works great with my seaton. Just a thought

Thanks I know about anti mode 8033. After I upgrade to XT32 I think I don't need the anti mode anymore so not going to spend 300 on it. Want a temporary solution so thought FBD since can get one around 50 or less.

Another option is get the new anti mode dual core and forget about xt32.

Cheers

I ordered my Submersive HP black maple sub today. I will be using it in my 15x15x8 theater room with my M&K S-150 speakers currently powered by Denon AVR-5800(will probably replace with Denon 4311 later on). My current sub is a M&K MX-100(200 watt 12" sub) but I have had it for 15+ years and it is on it's last leg.

Thanks to everyone on here who has posted their impressions of their Seaton Submersive HP as it helped me make my decision. I will report back after I get it.

Thanks again,
Mike

I ordered my Submersive HP black maple sub today. I will be using it in my 15x15x8 theater room with my M&K S-150 speakers currently powered by Denon AVR-5800(will probably replace with Denon 4311 later on). My current sub is a M&K MX-100(200 watt 12" sub) but I have had it for 15+ years and it is on it's last leg.

Thanks to everyone on here who has posted their impressions of their Seaton Submersive HP as it helped me make my decision. I will report back after I get it.

Thanks again,
Mike

Please post a picture of the Black Maple. Interested to see what it looks like.

Thanks

Please post a picture of the Black Maple. Interested to see what it looks like.

Thanks

This is my Black Maple from my phone cam. It looks like the Black Satin finish, but when you look up close you can see the wood grain. It looks great.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/bhazard/IMG_20120227_154821.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/bhazard/IMG_20120227_155041.jpg

This is my Black Maple from my phone cam. It looks like the Black Satin finish, but when you look up close you can see the wood grain. It looks great.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/bhazard/IMG_20120227_154821.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/bhazard/IMG_20120227_155041.jpg

Ha yeah those are terrible pics:D
Nice Sub though

I ordered my Submersive HP black maple sub today. I will be using it in my 15x15x8 theater room with my M&K S-150 speakers currently powered by Denon AVR-5800(will probably replace with Denon 4311 later on). My current sub is a M&K MX-100(200 watt 12" sub) but I have had it for 15+ years and it is on it's last leg.

Thanks to everyone on here who has posted their impressions of their Seaton Submersive HP as it helped me make my decision. I will report back after I get it.

Thanks again,
Mike

I replaced my 5800 with a 4311, and I was surprised at what a big upgrade it was over the 5800, given its in a lower price bracket. I think you will be very happy with the XT32/Submersive HP combo. I know I am.

I ordered my Submersive HP black maple sub today. I will be using it in my 15x15x8 theater room with my M&K S-150 speakers currently powered by Denon AVR-5800(will probably replace with Denon 4311 later on). My current sub is a M&K MX-100(200 watt 12" sub) but I have had it for 15+ years and it is on it's last leg.

Thanks to everyone on here who has posted their impressions of their Seaton Submersive HP as it helped me make my decision. I will report back after I get it.

Thanks again,
Mike

Congrats. I think going from a M&K 200 watt 12 in sub to a HP should be quite the upgrade:eek:. But because of the shape of your room, you will probably need the EQ that newer Denon will have. Please post some pics of the sub and your system when you have it in place.

I replaced my 5800 with a 4311, and I was surprised at what a big upgrade it was over the 5800, given its in a lower price bracket. I think you will be very happy with the XT32/Submersive HP combo. I know I am.

Thats good to know cause I was afraid the 4311 might only be just a tad bit better because of the XT32 and that maybe the amps weren't as good as the ones in the 5800 so I am glad you say it is a big upgrade.


Congrats. I think going from a M&K 200 watt 12 in sub to a HP should be quite the upgrade. But because of the shape of your room, you will probably need the EQ that newer Denon will have. Please post some pics of the sub and your system when you have it in place.

Yeah, the 4311 is next on my upgrade list. I will try and post some pics once I get the sub in place. Ya know, I seem to do good in saving money when I am not regularly reading avsforum.:eek: The Submersive HP is my first upgrade audio wise in quite a while but now I am also interested in the Denon 4311 and I would love to get the Catalyst 8C Speakers for my LCR. I really need to quit reading this forum...lol :D

Thanks,
Mike

Thats good to know cause I was afraid the 4311 might only be just a tad bit better because of the XT32 and that maybe the amps weren't as good as the ones in the 5800 so I am glad you say it is a big upgrade.




Yeah, the 4311 is next on my upgrade list. I will try and post some pics once I get the sub in place. Ya know, I seem to do good in saving money when I am not regularly reading avsforum.:eek: The Submersive HP is my first upgrade audio wise in quite a while but now I am also interested in the Denon 4311 and I would love to get the Catalyst 8C Speakers for my LCR. I really need to quit reading this forum...lol :D

Thanks,
Mike

I just added the 4311 today and it is a stellar piece of equipment. Like you, this forum has cost me way too much money, but you only live once and I now have a seriously satisfying sound system that wows everyone who listens.

Black maple submersive arrived today!:D I think there is some kind of problem because.......I cant stop grinning!!!!!! The packaging was great as fedex put a couple holes in the box but nothing got through to the sub. Fit and finish are excellent, and by the way this thing is HEAVY. So now on to locating and running arc. Couple of pics for now.

Black maple submersive arrived today!:D I think there is some kind of problem because.......I cant stop grinning!!!!!! The packaging was great as fedex put a couple holes in the box but nothing got through to the sub. Fit and finish are excellent, and by the way this thing is HEAVY. So now on to locating and running arc. Couple of pics for now.

Congrats!! Please post your impressions after you had some more time with them.

PS...that "problem" never goes away ;)

I got my Black Maple Submersive HP sub today as well. Mine arrived via UPS and came packaged very secure. I had a friend come over and help me move into theater room. My current receiver(Denon AVR-5800) doesn't have any type of EQ so that is next on my list to purchase(Denon 4311). So far I like the sound from the sub but I need to get out my Radio Shack sound level meter to get my levels balanced. I also need to move it into corner and/or find its best location. I think with the future addition of the Denon AVR-4311 with Audssey XT32 it is going to sound great. Here are a few pics, sorry for the terrible picture taking.

Mike

You guys are killing me, should I order it tomorrow?

I wish I could!

[QUOTE=bhazard;21705024]This is my Black Maple from my phone cam. It looks like the Black Satin finish, but when you look up close you can see the wood grain. It looks great.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/bhazard/IMG_20120227_154821.jpg

Wow, this picture makes it look almost like a piano black/gloss finish... Is the Black Maple finish that "glossy" in person or is it more just the camera angle/light reflection playing tricks on us? I'm just curious. (I have the Black Oak finish, which is beautiful, but I can't help but think maybe the Black Maple finish would better complement my TV stand and TV as both have a piano black/gloss finish...)

[QUOTE=bhazard;21705024]This is my Black Maple from my phone cam. It looks like the Black Satin finish, but when you look up close you can see the wood grain. It looks great.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/bhazard/IMG_20120227_154821.jpg

Wow, this picture makes it look almost like a piano black/gloss finish... Is the Black Maple finish that "glossy" in person or is it more just the camera angle/light reflection playing tricks on us? I'm just curious. (I have the Black Oak finish, which is beautiful, but I can't help but think maybe the Black Satin finish would better complement my TV stand and TV as both of those have a piano black/gloss finish...)

It's not piano black or glossy. Think Black Oak with a very fine woodgrain which makes it looks like a satin finish.

You guys are killing me, should I order it tomorrow?

Yes!! I haven't even tried different locations yet as I have been listening to music most of the night(and I am a 95% movie guy) and this sub just sounds fantastic with music. I have listened to almost all of the blu-ray of John Mayer Where the Light Is and the 2.0 PCM sounds awesome, much better than the 5.1 Dolby TrueHD as it sounds harsh. The bass on this blu-ray really puts out a punch and sounds great. I've just watched a few demo discs as far as movies and the War of the Worlds scene shook my whole room and I am surprised nothing fell. Very impressed with this sub for music as I am coming from a M&K MX-100(200 watt sub 12" woofer) and I found it to be a very musical sub but this hits lower and harder. I still have the M&K MX-100 sub plugged up as it is in the back of the room and the subs seem to blend together just fine. I hope to watch some movies this week with it as that was my whole reason for buying it. So far I am pleased with my SubMersive Sub purchase.

It's not piano black or glossy. Think Black Oak with a very fine woodgrain which makes it looks like a satin finish.

Yes, the pictures make the black maple look glossy but I think it is just the way the light hits off the top of it in the photos.

Mike

Glad to see all these new happy owners. And as stated above, the grin does not go away. Looking forward to reading about what all the new owners think once they have had time with the subs.

You guys are killing me, should I order it tomorrow?

Simple answer, yes.

Glad to see all these new happy owners. And as stated above, the grin does not go away. Looking forward to reading about what all the new owners think once they have had time with the subs.

The problem with this sub is not coming home until late at night during the week after work and not being able to use it fully.

The problem with this sub is not coming home until late at night during the week after work and not being able to use it fully.

Ha, ha, I'm retired so I can play my duals all day long and I do! My gear is on 14 to 16 hours a day with music/TV and movies. I live in the middle of 5 acres so I can boom-boom all I want.

The problem with this sub is not coming home until late at night during the week after work and not being able to use it fully.
That's what weekends were invented for:D. Still looking forward to your thoughts.

That's what weekends were invented for:D. Still looking forward to your thoughts.

It's incredible. I've had it for over a month now and I love it more and more every day.

I redid my entire audio system. I went from an Acoustech 7.1 system, Pioneer 1121, and an a2-300, to a JBL190 7.1 system with 4 190 towers, Denon 4311 and the SubM. I always liked the Acoustech/A2 setup, but the 190/4311/SubM combo is remarkable, outstanding.

The 190s with XT32 have such great imaging, clarity and sound that I may not need to upgrade to any JTR/Seaton speaker anytime soon. The fact I only paid $230 for 2 new 190 towers on closeout was one of the best deals I ever came across.

The SubM.... well its just a monster in its own right. It cost me over 3x what I paid for the 7.0 JBL setup, and 7x what I paid for the A2. I didn't think it would have been worth 7x the cost of the A2. After spending time with it, and trying it with XT32, it was well worth the cost and I love it.

I didn't like PGM2 when I didn't have XT32 because it sounded a bit "sloppy" compared to PGM1. I switched to PGM2 for movies last night, and I love the extra oompf it provides. I still prefer PGM1 for music though.

Couldn't be happier with it. Like I said before though, I just wish I had more time to blast it. I'm usually out on the weekends and during the week the SubM doesn't get nearly enough exercise as it should.

Oh yeah, at about 105db on some material, with about +5 of added bass or so, in a concrete basement, the SubM shakes the wood staircase and railing outside the room, and could be felt upstairs in the floor all the way down to the living room 2 rooms away.

bhazard,
even though you may not get to play it as much as you would like, it's still great that you like it so much. I agree. I still think mine is just fantastic and really enjoy when I can crank my system. We just couldn't get program 2 to work in my room so we left it in program 1. Even in program 1 it still just takes hold of the room and does not let it go. Glad you are satisfied with it. Hopefully at some point, you will get some quality time with it.

Using Prog 2 with one Submersive and it did make a huge difference with bass. In Blackhawk Down, scene where the bad dude is listening on his brick to hear the copters go by the kid on the hill holding his brick. I turned on the virtual height for the mains and it really had impact as the copters flew by. My room is huge and open so Prog 2 is an improvement for me. Have a amp issue (4 blinking red lites) and I called Mark. He is mailing me out a box and label for the amp so that I can send it to the manufactuer in Cali for repair. It is quicker for me to do this as Mark has no amps in stock until later next week. So I am doing really Ok with just one Submersive in the room with Prog 2 engaged. Then again, thinking about ordering a 3rd one.

what is this program 1 and program 2?

what is this program 1 and program 2?

Submersive HP instructions http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/SubMersive-amp-SubMersive-HP-connection-and-setup-5106877. Read Switches and settings #4.

Then again, thinking about ordering a 3rd one.

Three is a nice number!

It's incredible. I've had it for over a month now and I love it more and more every day.

.....

I didn't like PGM2 when I didn't have XT32 because it sounded a bit "sloppy" compared to PGM1. I switched to PGM2 for movies last night, and I love the extra oompf it provides. I still prefer PGM1 for music though.


I concur. I've had the SubM since November, and I have a small living room I use as a home theater- I prefer PRGM 1 for music and PRGM 2 for movies. As Craig John suggested a while back, I ran Audyssey with PRGM1 and then did the power cycle with PRGM 2 enabled for movies. On movies that have strong LFE I don't change the db volume level on the sub (-36db) but occasionally I change it to the next step up (-30db) to get even more ooomph. When showing off the sub I am liberal with the dial and play it even hotter :)

LOVE the HP SubM. Only "problem" is I know I'll want two eventually when I move into a larger space...

So I am doing really Ok with just one Submersive in the room with Prog 2 engaged. Then again, thinking about ordering a 3rd one.

Three is a nice number!

Three definitely hit the sweet spot for me. Two sounded great. But once I added the third, and upgraded them to the HP amps... I finally said, "I am done with my subwoofer system. I can't possibly "upgrade" this system any more!"

So, while I suppose it is technically possible to "upgrade" my system beyond 3 SubM HP's, my "upgradeitis" is currently cured... or at least it's in remission! :)

Craig

Three definitely hit the sweet spot for me. Two sounded great. But once I added the third, and upgraded them to the HP amps... I finally said, "I am done with my subwoofer system. I can't possibly "upgrade" this system any more!"

So, while I suppose it is technically possible to "upgrade" my system beyond 3 SubM HP's, my "upgradeitis" is currently cured... or at least it's in remission! :)

Craig

Then the next step after the 3rd Submersive is a dedicated HT room. I have 2 choices, one is a 15 X 21 and the second is 16 X 20. Decisions, decisions! With no WAF, it's all my fault now.

Then the next step after the 3rd Submersive is a dedicated HT room.

You may find with no open sides you don't have to throw so many watts at it. ;)

Marcus,

Max has covered most everything, but I'll fill in a few details. :)


Agreed! The biggest effect I heard from XT32 was in the mid-and upper bass, above the subwoofer range. The additional filters in the mains really help smooth out the bass in the area where the room has a huge impact, but that can't be EQ'd in the subwoofer.


Excellent point! The 886 only has a single subwoofer output. An XT32 equipped pre/pro would have dual subwoofer outs. Connect the subs as Max suggests and XT32 will set levels and distances separately for the Submersive and for the pair of Traid subs. I would reinforce Max's suggestion to try to keep the Triad subs both equidistant to the primary listening position. They don't necessarily need to be "symmetric" to the LP, just equidistant. Also, be sure you gain match them. If you need some explanation of gain-matching, read this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19446901#post19446901

In terms of placement, Max's suggestion is a great starting point. Since you'll be getting OmniMic, you can use it to measure the FR before you run Audyssey, to try to optimize placement of the subs. Measure the Submersive independently, then each Triad sub. Then combine them and measure the combined response. Move the subs around and try to find the flattest combination of placements, and then run Audyssey from there. Giving Audyssey a better starting point will always yield a better result.


Agreed, with the caveat that, if the seating is close to the back wall, 7.1 won't be advantageous. In that case, heights would be a better option, if they work in your space. I think you said you had 10' ceilings, so you should be able to do height speakers pretty easily. However, you would need to decide which arrangement for heights that you want to go with, Dolby's or Audyssey's. Here are the links:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-pro-logic-iiz-details.html
http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/audyssey-dsx

Dolby suggests the height speakers be directly above the L/R's. Audyssey wants them at a 45 degree elevation angle. I would chose one or the other of these and not try to use both, or some intermediate compromise.


All excellent advice! :)

Craig

Hi Craig, thanks for your advise.

Hi All, just ordered a Submersive and need some advise on calibrating the Sub. Since my pre/pro do not have dual sub output do I need FBD 1124 or antimode 8033 to calibrate 1 Submersive and 2 Triads Sub?

I will only upgrade to XT32 at later date. Maybe end of the year so need something for the sub calibration now.

Cheers
Marcus