Seaton Sound SubMersive1 [Text View] - Page 3

rossandwendy

10-28-08, 06:25 PM

Hey all,

Wanted to post to say I received a SubMersive a few weeks back and have had time to put it through its paces with about a dozen or two infamous DVD/Blu-Ray/HD-DVD bass scenes like WOTW, M&C, FOTP, Open Range, etc. For the past year I have also had dual PB13-Ultra, a Conquest, dual VTF-3.3, and a PB12-NSD. Let's just say that all subs except the SubMersive are now up for sale or have been already sold :).

I am experiencing smooth, natural, accurate, tight, effortless, powerful, and very dynamic bass that is extremely rewarding to listen to, and the integration with my Rocket speakers is superb. The gentle rolloff in the very deep bass couples beautifully to room gain and is giving me flat response to at least 10hz :cool: (and yes the infrasonics are loud enough to be usable, running Blackhawk Down at -8 proved that :eek:). Of course the Conquest and Ultra are indeed top notch performers that will please most anyone, but for my ears and tastes the SubMersive is providing exactly what I was after. It's hard to put into words the often startling dynamic transients this thing produces, and the relatively compact size integrates much better in my smallish 15.5 x 17.5 sealed room.

Most of my listening is movies but I have run through several music CD's and my enthusiasm remains - particularly on the well-known Dave Brubek disc "Time Out" and Steely Dan's "Two Against Nature" I was delighted with the increased definition of acoustic and electric bass lines, the "realness" of drums, and the dynamic power. The SubMersive completely disappears into the fabric of the soundstage and that is high praise indeed.

Seaton just announced a very rare sale on his SubMersive with up to $150-$200 off for a limited time so anyone interested will want to check out his website (Google "Seaton Submersive"). I have no affiliation with the man, never met him, same with SVS, Epik, HSU, and all other brands of gear I have owned - I am just one real picky listener who is now more satisfied with my overall system sound and bass quality then ever before :D.

I just finished playing select scenes from War of the Worlds DTS track at -11 and hit an all-new max SPL in my room of 114db uncorrected at the listening position 10 feet away - with RS meter correction factor that is about 117-118db in-room from a single SubMersive...YIKES!

Cheers,
Ross

megasat16

10-28-08, 06:55 PM

smooth, natural, accurate, tight, effortless, powerful, and very dynamic bass

Hi RossandWendy,

All the words you describe matches the advantages of a sealed sub. I wonder you are choosing the Submersive only and got rid of the other subs because the sounds of the ported subs is a little lacking in sound quality? Have you tried PB13 Ultras in sealed mode before you sold them?

How does the Conquest compare to the Submersive? I think there'll be no contest that the Submersive wins in SQ but how about SPL and the deep low bass in the 10Hz region?

Cheers,
James

rossandwendy

10-28-08, 07:17 PM

Hi RossandWendy,

All the words you describe matches the advantages of a sealed sub. I wonder you are choosing the Submersive only and got rid of the other subs because the sounds of the ported subs is a little lacking in sound quality? Have you tried PB13 Ultras in sealed mode before you sold them?

How does the Conquest compare to the Submersive? I think there'll be no contest that the Submersive wins in SQ but how about SPL and the deep low bass in the 10Hz region?

Cheers,
James
Hi James,

The Conquest is a killer sub, I greatly enjoyed my time with it. If it was not so huge I might have kept it. Overall, I prefer the SQ of the SubMersive, it's just a bit more natural sounding to my ears, and more dynamic. Regarding the infrasonic bass, the Conquest is tuned rather high (around 19.5hz), and rolls off steeply below that, whereas the SubMersive has a gentler rolloff which makes the relative level of 10-16hz bass higher and more easily perceived, at least in my room and to my ears. Regarding overall SPL, the Conquest may edge out the SubMersive around 20-25hz, but everywhere else the SubMersive subjectively goes louder & cleaner, as evidenced by the corrected 117-118db peak I measured today on WOTW, higher than any reading I have obtained before.

Again, keep in mind we are talking extremely high performance levels here with all these subs - SubMersive, Conquest, and PB13-Ultra - and any one of these three is going to satisfy most owners for years to come. So I'm not saying the competition is crap all of a sudden, but as I have mentioned the SubMersive has real-world qualities that make it my preferred sub and I am delighted to finally own a Seaton design :). It's clear to me Mark knows his stuff.

Cheers,
Ross

megasat16

10-28-08, 08:09 PM

Hi Ross,

I am glad you finally have the subs of your desire. I remember you saying the bass void in your room and it's awesome to finally have found the solution. Congrats to you and Congrats to Mark for making the submersive. Although I don't own Submersive or Conquests, I am sure they are all very good value and serves the purpose of it's intended use.

Cheers,
James

MIkeDuke

10-29-08, 08:15 AM

Fantastic comments on the SubMersive Ross. It is also great that you had a number of subs in your room to compare it too. This is only my third sub ever. My first was an orginal Def Tec Powerfield 15. Then I had a JM Labs SW900. Now I have this sub. But I have heard many other subs for multiple listening sessions. At this one audio store I used to goto I heard many top end subs. I heard the Wilson Watch Dog(original one). Dynaudio Contour. I also have heard the Martin Logan Decent and the JM Labs Sub Utopia. Now, the prices for these subs were $9999, $2999. $2799 and $6000. Some of those prices may have gone up since then. Until I heard the SubMersive, I never heard a sub that sounded better or was more dynamic then the Utopia. It is a great sub. The SubMersive is it's equal in SQ and can probably match it up high and out do it down low. I was very impressed with that fact. Now given the fact that the SubMersive is lower then all of them, it has to be considered a bargain.

Ross, you seem to have nailed down the experience rather well. Your thoughts echo mine when I had it first setup. I did not know what to expect but I sure got more than I thought I would. And you hit upon a key design principal. Mark designed the sub to have the exact roll off that you and I are experiencing in a sealed room. And I have to agree, WOTW is quite fun now :).

JimP

10-29-08, 10:23 AM

Sounds like a good choice for a sealed 2000 sq ft room, but what about a 4500 sq ft open (not sealed) living room?

MIkeDuke

10-29-08, 11:05 AM

Sounds like a good choice for a sealed 2000 sq ft room, but what about a 4500 sq ft open (not sealed) living room?

I have seen other people place a single sub in a room that was a much larger room then the typical 2500cf room. I am pretty sure that one of the newer owners put it in a 6000cf and is quite pleased. But, Mark also offers other options. The Terraform is a sub that might fit the bill. If I am not mistaken, it was built for "wide open spaces":D
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/seatonsound/vpost?id=2438650
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/seatonsound/vpost?id=2381183
Not to mention that eventually there should be even more powerful versions of the Terraform and
SubMersive down the line. That being said, I would guess that there is a chance that Mark
would say the SubMersive would be fine in that room.

Mark Seaton

10-29-08, 05:19 PM

First and foremost, thank you Ross for the praise and expressing your enjoyment of what the SubMersive offers.

http://av123forum.com/images/smilies/beers.gif

Sounds like a good choice for a sealed 2000 sq ft room, but what about a 4500 sq ft open (not sealed) living room?

Hi Jim,

I would probably say a nice sweet spot for the SubMersive's low end roll off and output falls in the 3000-3500 cu.ft. room, while 6000 cu.ft. rooms haven't been a problem at all. The response of the SubMersive is +/-3dB from 19-200Hz, meaning even in very open floor plans it will still be very extended. While there will be more roll off in a large room than in a 3000 cu.ft. room, measured responses in such rooms still have significantly less roll off than all but a select few other offerings.

About a month ago I installed a pair of SubMersives in a system with Dunlavy SC-V mains and matching center. The room was about 17' wide with 8' ceilings, while behind the seating area was a pool table, followed then a ~10' wide opening into another long room with some large windows and sliding glass doors along the left side of the space. The pair of SubMersives placed left and right helped smooth some dips above 40Hz, while the low end response shape was pretty similar to that of a single. With both running, before any EQ, the response was +/-3dB from 32Hz down past 10Hz, with a peak around 28Hz being the high point, and a nearly flat response from 10-25Hz.

I do think many here get a little over-zealous in their concern about total room volume. It certainly is a factor, but once you get out of a simple shoebox room of more common proportions, you need to also ask about dimensions and listener distances. Reading many impressions here, someone might mistakenly come to the conclusion that it is impossible to get strong bass outdoors. :rolleyes:

While 4 SubMersives reside in Art Sonneborn's 20' x 28' x ~9' theater (with a good size opening at the rear right), at one point in making other system adjustments, I accidentally switched off the power to 2 of the 4 SubMersives. While we were confused why the level sounded a little low, bumping that back up still made for a highly impressive performance.

How much performance is really needed is HUGELY subjective and variable from listener to listener. Many find a single or dual MFW-15 to be almost scarry impressive, where a single SubMersive does even more, and others lust for 4 SubMersives in even smaller spaces.

Finally, many don't give enough credit to subwoofer location and the rest of the operating range beyond 16-25Hz. A location change can sometimes make for a 6dB difference in output over a significant range. Being able to place a subwoofer in an efficient location to drive the room is very important, where in some cases physical size can be a major factor, while in other cases it isn't. While we certainly do want plenty of power in the 16-25Hz range, a subwoofer has a lot more to do than just this range. The rest of the range may not always be taxing on driver excursion, but 250W at 70Hz requires the same power from the amp as 250W at 20Hz. The amplifier must deliver the full subwoofer spectrum in all its complexities, which also means delivering strong response above 40Hz without the deep bass compressing and modulating everything else going on. Right to the amplifier's limits, the SubMersive has very little compression over its operating range, with headroom above 40Hz exceeding 116-120dB @ 2m gp. These capabilities, along with the robust amplifier with real, sustained output of >1000W, make for the deceptively powerful package many owners have reported positively on in the 2 years since its introduction.

KnowledgeSeeker

10-29-08, 05:30 PM

First and foremost, thank you Ross for the praise and expressing your enjoyment of what the SubMersive offers.

http://av123forum.com/images/smilies/beers.gif

Hi Jim,

I would probably say a nice sweet spot for the SubMersive's low end roll off and output falls in the 3000-3500 cu.ft. room, while 6000 cu.ft. rooms haven't been a problem at all. The response of the SubMersive is +/-3dB from 19-200Hz, meaning even in very open floor plans it will still be very extended. While there will be more roll off in a large room than in a 3000 cu.ft. room, measured responses in such rooms still have significantly less roll off than all but a select few other offerings.

About a month ago I installed a pair of SubMersives in a system with Dunlavy SC-V mains and matching center. The room was about 17' wide with 8' ceilings, while behind the seating area was a pool table, followed then a ~10' wide opening into another long room with some large windows and sliding glass doors along the left side of the space. The pair of SubMersives placed left and right helped smooth some dips above 40Hz, while the low end response shape was pretty similar to that of a single. With both running, before any EQ, the response was +/-3dB from 32Hz down past 10Hz, with a peak around 28Hz being the high point, and a nearly flat response from 10-25Hz.

I do think many here get a little over-zealous in their concern about total room volume. It certainly is a factor, but once you get out of a simple shoebox room of more common proportions, you need to also ask about dimensions and listener distances. Reading many impressions here, someone might mistakenly come to the conclusion that it is impossible to get strong bass outdoors. :rolleyes:

While 4 SubMersives reside in Art Sonneborn's 20' x 28' x ~9' theater (with a good size opening at the rear right), at one point in making other system adjustments, I accidentally switched off the power to 2 of the 4 SubMersives. While we were confused why the level sounded a little low, bumping that back up still made for a highly impressive performance.

How much performance is really needed is HUGELY subjective and variable from listener to listener. Many find a single or dual MFW-15 to be almost scarry impressive, where a single SubMersive does even more, and others lust for 4 SubMersives in even smaller spaces.

Finally, many don't give enough credit to subwoofer location and the rest of the operating range beyond 16-25Hz. A location change can sometimes make for a 6dB difference in output over a significant range. Being able to place a subwoofer in an efficient location to drive the room is very important, where in some cases physical size can be a major factor, while in other cases it isn't. While we certainly do want plenty of power in the 16-25Hz range, a subwoofer has a lot more to do than just this range. The rest of the range may not always be taxing on driver excursion, but 250W at 70Hz requires the same power from the amp as 250W at 20Hz. The amplifier must deliver the full subwoofer spectrum in all its complexities, which also means delivering strong response above 40Hz without the deep bass compressing and modulating everything else going on. Right to the amplifier's limits, the SubMersive has very little compression over its operating range, with headroom above 40Hz exceeding 116-120dB @ 2m gp. These capabilities, along with the robust amplifier with real, sustained output of >1000W, make for the deceptively powerful package many owners have reported positively on in the 2 years since its introduction.

Mark, there's a lot of information out there on setting up 2 subs, but if you don't mind sharing, what do you personally like to do/use to set up 2 subs in a room for one of your customers? Thanks in advance for any info you're able to provide!

SlowcarIX

10-30-08, 12:05 AM

Mark, i cant wait for what you will be making for me!! :eek::D:D:D
First and foremost, thank you Ross for the praise and expressing your enjoyment of what the SubMersive offers.

http://av123forum.com/images/smilies/beers.gif

Hi Jim,

I would probably say a nice sweet spot for the SubMersive's low end roll off and output falls in the 3000-3500 cu.ft. room, while 6000 cu.ft. rooms haven't been a problem at all. The response of the SubMersive is +/-3dB from 19-200Hz, meaning even in very open floor plans it will still be very extended. While there will be more roll off in a large room than in a 3000 cu.ft. room, measured responses in such rooms still have significantly less roll off than all but a select few other offerings.

About a month ago I installed a pair of SubMersives in a system with Dunlavy SC-V mains and matching center. The room was about 17' wide with 8' ceilings, while behind the seating area was a pool table, followed then a ~10' wide opening into another long room with some large windows and sliding glass doors along the left side of the space. The pair of SubMersives placed left and right helped smooth some dips above 40Hz, while the low end response shape was pretty similar to that of a single. With both running, before any EQ, the response was +/-3dB from 32Hz down past 10Hz, with a peak around 28Hz being the high point, and a nearly flat response from 10-25Hz.

I do think many here get a little over-zealous in their concern about total room volume. It certainly is a factor, but once you get out of a simple shoebox room of more common proportions, you need to also ask about dimensions and listener distances. Reading many impressions here, someone might mistakenly come to the conclusion that it is impossible to get strong bass outdoors. :rolleyes:

While 4 SubMersives reside in Art Sonneborn's 20' x 28' x ~9' theater (with a good size opening at the rear right), at one point in making other system adjustments, I accidentally switched off the power to 2 of the 4 SubMersives. While we were confused why the level sounded a little low, bumping that back up still made for a highly impressive performance.

How much performance is really needed is HUGELY subjective and variable from listener to listener. Many find a single or dual MFW-15 to be almost scarry impressive, where a single SubMersive does even more, and others lust for 4 SubMersives in even smaller spaces.

Finally, many don't give enough credit to subwoofer location and the rest of the operating range beyond 16-25Hz. A location change can sometimes make for a 6dB difference in output over a significant range. Being able to place a subwoofer in an efficient location to drive the room is very important, where in some cases physical size can be a major factor, while in other cases it isn't. While we certainly do want plenty of power in the 16-25Hz range, a subwoofer has a lot more to do than just this range. The rest of the range may not always be taxing on driver excursion, but 250W at 70Hz requires the same power from the amp as 250W at 20Hz. The amplifier must deliver the full subwoofer spectrum in all its complexities, which also means delivering strong response above 40Hz without the deep bass compressing and modulating everything else going on. Right to the amplifier's limits, the SubMersive has very little compression over its operating range, with headroom above 40Hz exceeding 116-120dB @ 2m gp. These capabilities, along with the robust amplifier with real, sustained output of >1000W, make for the deceptively powerful package many owners have reported positively on in the 2 years since its introduction.

Mark Seaton

10-30-08, 03:42 PM

Mark, i cant wait for what you will be making for me!! :eek::D:D:D

That makes two of us. :cool:

Of course I'm less excited about moving the beast. ;)

Mark Seaton

10-30-08, 03:49 PM

Mark, there's a lot of information out there on setting up 2 subs, but if you don't mind sharing, what do you personally like to do/use to set up 2 subs in a room for one of your customers? Thanks in advance for any info you're able to provide!

Certainly a good question, although one that will require a longer answer. Of course measurement capability is required, but the first question at hand is what flexibilities are available in placement and other changes to the room/system, followed by questions of the subwoofers' capabilities and those of the rest of the system. Where to start is largely a function of what adjustments are possible in the system.

For example, if the decor, size, etc dictates the only possible subwoofer locations, there is no reason to waste time testing for that. From another perspective, if for whatever reason there isn't any or much EQ capability available, finding a placement with the most desirable response may take precedent over a location which might offer greater output, and vice-versa.

Back to building SubMersives and Catalysts... :)

mojomike

10-30-08, 04:21 PM

I heard that for a twelve-pack, Mark will come out to set it up for ya.:D:p:D

Mark Seaton

10-30-08, 05:09 PM

I heard that for a twelve-pack, Mark will come out to set it up for ya.:D:p:D

No no Mike, while I like the 12-pack reference, the threshold isn't nearly that high....

It's the lucky 7 deal... 3 Catalysts + 4 subwoofers. :cool:

Dbuudo07

01-27-09, 01:29 AM

cliff257

01-28-09, 03:15 PM

MIkeDuke

01-28-09, 03:26 PM

Been researching subs for a while now and I believe I might have come to a conclusion! Mark hasnt posted here for a while are these still available? Price, shipping, ect if anybody knows? I assume I just need to contact him?

Love the design, my dream sub has always been the krell $30k monster (seen and heard it). But that day will never come. The submersive design is similar and sealed I believe I am sold. Opinions?

This thread gets bumped now and again. Mark has his own forum where much of the talk is. I believe Mark has some ready to go. Here is his website
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/mb/seatonsound
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/seatonsound/vpost?id=3243058
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/seatonsound/vpost?id=3219743
I think Mark will honor the sale price until the 30th of this month so get in the que now. Plus you will get a calibration disk valued at $110 with your order.
I will give you a quick thought. Point blank, this is the best sub I have ever heard. I have heard an older Dynaudio Contour sub, a Martin Logan Decent, a Velodyne 18(I think) A Wilson audio Watch Dog and a JM Labs Sub Utopia Be. The Utopia Be was the best sub I have ever heard, until the SubMersive. It is the Utopia's equal up high and outperforms it down low. I could quote spl numbers but just trust me, you will have no regret.

MIkeDuke

01-28-09, 03:32 PM

MKtheater

01-28-09, 03:47 PM

I know this is off topic but will the sparks match the Catalysts in timbre so you can use them as surrounds? Also, Can the Catalysts be used as an in wall(surround duty).

MIkeDuke

01-28-09, 03:52 PM

I know this is off topic but will the sparks match the Catalysts in timbre so you can use them as surrounds? Also, Can the Catalysts be used as an in wall(surround duty).

I would probably say yes to the first question. I think there is a guy who just ordered a full Seaton theater and he is using the Catalysts up front and 4 sparks for surrounds. Now, Catalyst as in wall surrounds.... I don't know. They are powered as you know so you would have to have the plug for them out so you could connect them to the wall. That would be interesting though.

MKtheater

01-28-09, 03:56 PM

The backs of them would be in another room, the front facing the theater.

MIkeDuke

01-28-09, 03:58 PM

I have a feeling Mark will chime in soon and give you his thoughts on that and another option.

MKtheater

01-28-09, 04:03 PM

I am hoping.

MIkeDuke

01-28-09, 04:07 PM

As Morpheus said, "I do not believe it to be a matter of hope, simply, a matter of time."

MKtheater

01-28-09, 04:19 PM

Thanks, now I have to watch the trilogy. I think when I get my Mac gear calibrated I want to watch all the Star Wars movies as well. Should be a long night, or 2.

MIkeDuke

01-28-09, 05:53 PM

I just finished watching them all over a few nights myself. It was fun :). I am sure in your room it will be amazing.

kawika36

01-28-09, 06:10 PM

This thread is back from the dead and I just bought a Submersive :D:D Let the party begin!!

MIkeDuke

01-28-09, 06:13 PM

This thread is back from the dead and I just bought a Submersive :D:D Let the party begin!!

Very nice. Is this your first sub? How big is your room? I am the real manic here. I have mine in a 1000cf room:D.

Mark Seaton

01-28-09, 08:38 PM

I've just finished reading this entire thread. Well Mark, It looks like you've got another future customer. You're principals, understanding and the fact that you seem to be all about delivering the goods, is everything that a business should be. From what I've read, I'll be looking to pick up a submersive before years end. If I win the lottery though, you're going to have your work cut out for you;) I'll make you part of home theater history.

Congratulations on all your success. You deserve it.

Hi David,

Thank you for the vote of confidence and approval.

While the $100 discount for new SubMersive customers, and $150 discount per SubMersive for those ordering multiples or additional subs is ending January 30th, I plan to continue to include the 5.1 Audio Toolkit (http://www.audiotoolkit.com/) with Seaton Sound purchases (one per customer) for the foreseeable future (at the current price of $1,995 + shipping). In the end it is a worthwhile investment that provides a highly reliable point of reference to insure systems are functioning as expected, and a means for myself and other owners to more directly trouble shoot problems which might be encountered.

I look forward to the brainstorming session when you cash in that winning lottery ticket. ;)

LTD02

01-28-09, 08:51 PM

Thanks, now I have to watch the trilogy. I think when I get my Mac gear calibrated I want to watch all the Star Wars movies as well. Should be a long night, or 2.

original recipe or reincarnations where lucas messed them all up with goofy digital fx?

MKtheater

01-28-09, 09:06 PM

all of them. save the best for last.

LTD02

01-28-09, 09:19 PM

i guess that i don't fully understand the submersive product. pair of mediocre 15's and an amp. what makes this product worth $2k?

sandbagger

01-28-09, 09:43 PM

i guess that i don't fully understand the submersive product. pair of mediocre 15's and an amp. what makes this product worth $2k?

have you ever seen/heard one in person..... you might want to before making such statements

LTD02

01-28-09, 10:12 PM

have you ever seen/heard one in person..... you might want to before making such statements

why?

Stereodude

01-28-09, 10:15 PM

why?Haven't you ever heard the saying about judging a book by it's cover? :rolleyes:

LTD02

01-28-09, 10:19 PM

Haven't you ever heard the saying about judging a book by it's cover? :rolleyes:

lol, what does this do toward answering my question?

Stereodude

01-28-09, 10:24 PM

lol, what does this do toward answering my question?I think you're trying to be intentionally dense, but I'll humor you. The performance of the Submersive makes it worth $2k, and yes it performs incredibly regardless of what you think of the components it uses.

Just because the parts aren't flashy doesn't mean they're mediocre. Shiny drivers don't perform any better than plain looking drivers.

bossobass

01-28-09, 10:29 PM

i guess that i don't fully understand the submersive product. pair of mediocre 15's and an amp. what makes this product worth $2k?

Apparently you've jacked this thread to preach driver technology, subwoofer dollar value and goodness knows what else.

This oughtta be good. I'm riveted.

Bosso

LTD02

01-28-09, 10:33 PM

I think you're trying to be intentionally dense, but I'll humor you. The performance of the Submersive makes it worth $2k, and yes it performs incredibly regardless of what you think of the components it uses.

Just because the parts aren't flashy doesn't mean they're mediocre. Shiny drivers don't perform any better than plain looking drivers.

why do you now insult me?

what performance are you referring to? show me some $2k performance.

i didn't say anything about flashy or shiny drivers, just mediocre drivers. good performance can be achieved from mediocre drivers, just not sure why it takes $2k in this case.

LTD02

01-28-09, 10:34 PM

Apparently you've jacked this thread to preach driver technology, subwoofer dollar value and goodness knows what else.

This oughtta be good. I'm riveted.

Bosso

now i am jacking threads?

i just asked what makes the product worth the cost. that's a fair question.

bossobass

01-28-09, 10:36 PM

now i am jacking threads?

i just asked what makes the product worth the cost. that's a fair question.

Let's don't be coy. Start by defining 'mediocre'.

Bosso

Stereodude

01-28-09, 10:38 PM

what performance are you referring to? show me some $2k performance.And how do you suggest I show you the performance of a subwoofer over the internet?
i didn't say anything about flashy or shiny drivers, just mediocre drivers. good performance can be achieve from mediocre drivers, just not sure why it takes $2k in this case.Perhaps you can start by telling the rest of us by what standard you have decided they are mediocre?

LTD02

01-28-09, 10:43 PM

Let's don't be coy. Start by defining 'mediocre'.

Bosso

by mediocre, i simply mean employing common driver technology and design. perhaps there is a better adjective for that.

LTD02

01-28-09, 10:47 PM

And how do you suggest I show you the performance of a subwoofer over the internet?

are you serious? design specs would be good. performance measurements would be better. how about some ilkka-like performance data?

cschang

01-28-09, 10:48 PM

by mediocre, i simply mean employing common driver technology and design. perhaps there is a better adjective for that.
How about an example of a $2K sub that doesn't employ common driver technology and design?

gpmbc

01-28-09, 10:49 PM

now i am jacking threads?

i just asked what makes the product worth the cost. that's a fair question.

I feel where you're coming from not exactly in reference to the Submersive, but with a lot of speakers in general. I think some of it stems from DIY endeavours when you get a guage of what raw drivers, amps, mdf etc. cost and then what the final price on some products wind up to be. Of course you take into account labor, business costs, and a profit to keep up and running but it can get ridiculous.

Stereodude

01-28-09, 10:55 PM

are you serious? design specs would be good. performance measurements would be better. how about some ilkka-like performance data?Did you read any of this thread before you decided to start crapping all over it?

How many other subwoofers do you know of that have flat in room response into single digits regardless of price?

LTD02

01-28-09, 10:56 PM

How about an example of a $2K sub that doesn't employ common driver technology and design?

there are many though geared for different applications. the pb13u driver probably falls in the category, not sure about the big 18 from epik.

LTD02

01-28-09, 10:59 PM

I feel where you're coming from not exactly in reference to the Submersive, but with a lot of speakers in general. I think some of it stems from DIY endeavours when you get a guage of what raw drivers, amps, mdf etc. cost and then what the final price on some products wind up to be. Of course you take into account labor, business costs, and a profit to keep up and running but it can get ridiculous.

maybe i have just missed something big, such as does the $2k price include setup and tuning. that could be worth it. perhaps there is something else that i missed. i don't know everything. that's why i asked the question.

bossobass

01-28-09, 11:00 PM

by mediocre, i simply mean employing common driver technology and design. perhaps there is a better adjective for that.

Perhaps there is. :rolleyes:

Being perfectly honest (and getting back to my point), I assumed you know enough about the drivers and amp used to elaborate.

As I said above; I'm all ears. Be specific. You've graduated from 'mediocre' to 'common', which tells me nothing. Because I tend to be dense when it comes to a 2X15" sealed subwoofer, I'm interested to be let in on what it is you know that I don't.

Bosso

Mark Seaton

01-28-09, 11:02 PM

Been researching subs for a while now and I believe I might have come to a conclusion! Mark hasnt posted here for a while are these still available? Price, shipping, ect if anybody knows? I assume I just need to contact him?

Love the design, my dream sub has always been the krell $30k monster (seen and heard it). But that day will never come. The submersive design is similar and sealed I believe I am sold. Opinions?

Hi cliff,

A quick google search of Seaton Sound SubMersive will get anyone to my forum or point to any number of ways to contact me. Today I even made some progress on getting www.seatonsound.net and related details moving.

I noted the January sale detailed on my forum in my last post, but to confirm, orders placed under the sale will be shipping between Feb 9th & Feb 13th with lead times likely shrinking after that. Shipping a SubMersive within the lower 48 typically costs $119-135. You can e-mail me with your shipping address (zip code at minimum) and I can provide an exact quote.

Long ago when I slaved part time for a retailer I heard a pair of Krell MRS's as well as having installed/setup a single unit. Another very memorable subwoofer was the pair of bass towers which were part of the Martin Logan Statement E2s which I also had the pleasure of installing/setting up. While hardly a pinnacle of value, both had wonderful qualities of their own. Ironically, the same company who made the custom 12" subwoofer drivers (12 per set of speakers! :cool:) for the Statement E2s builds my custom 3" VC, 15" woofers in the SubMersive.

I look forward to hearing from you cliff! :)

LTD02

01-28-09, 11:03 PM

Did you read any of this thread before you decided to start crapping all over it?

yes. i didn't see anything remarkable. hence my question.

ransac

01-28-09, 11:05 PM

now i am jacking threads?

i just asked what makes the product worth the cost. that's a fair question.First off, a product is worth what people will pay for it.

Take a good DIY design. Now decide to put it into production. You need to get a business license, rent space for production, warehousing, and offices. Then pay people to document the design, do testing, create BOMs, locate and buy materials, receive and put the part away. Now hire people to take orders, pull the parts, fabricate the enclosures, assemble the sub, inspect and test it, package it for shipping (packing material is an added cost), ship it..... These people need tools, supplies, work benches and other furniture... and on top of that, you have to eat any warranty repairs. Now you need to hire people to do your bookkeeping, run payroll, pay your payroll taxes, get employee insurance.......These people need office furniture, supplies, computers, software..... I haven't even touched liability insurance, marketing and all the other costs of doing business.

Let me see you do all this and sell into a saturated market. Tell me you can do this for $600 a sub and still not lose your shorts.:)

Stereodude

01-28-09, 11:07 PM

yes. i didn't see anything remarkable. hence my question.Flat response in room down to 8Hz isn't remarkable? What would you consider remarkable?

Stereodude

01-28-09, 11:08 PM

there are many though geared for different applications. the pb13u driver probably falls in the category, not sure about the big 18 from epik.So, as long as you make your driver an odd size it's not mediocre? Interesting...

Any other words of wisdom?

LTD02

01-28-09, 11:12 PM

First off, a product is worth what people will pay for it.

Take a good DIY design. Now decide to put it into production. You need to get a business license, rent space for production, warehousing, and offices. Then pay people to document the design, do testing, create BOMs, locate and buy materials, receive and put the part away. Now hire people to take orders, pull the parts, fabricate the enclosures, assemble the sub, inspect and test it, package it for shipping (packing material is an added cost), ship it..... These people need tools, supplies, work benches and other furniture... and on top of that, you have to eat any warranty repairs. Now you need to hire people to do your bookkeeping, run payroll, pay your payroll taxes, get employee insurance.......These people need office furniture, supplies, computers, software..... I haven't even touched liability insurance, marketing and all the other costs of doing business.

Let me see you do all this and sell into a saturated market. Tell me you can do this for $600 a sub and still not lose your shorts.:)

is this the treatment that everybody gets when they simply ask about performance for $ around here? it didn't use to be that way.

to answer your question even though you haven't answered mine, the av123 mfw15 employs mediocre 15" drivers and amps. it performs pretty well for the $. the submersive sub is ~3x the cost.

LTD02

01-28-09, 11:15 PM

So, as long as you make your driver an odd size it's not mediocre? Interesting...

Any other words of wisdom?

umm, how about ability to remain linear at extreme excursion. :p

ransac

01-28-09, 11:22 PM

is this the treatment that everybody gets when they simply ask about performance for $ around here? it didn't use to be that way.

to answer your question even though you haven't answered mine, the av123 mfw15 employs mediocre 15" drivers and amps. it performs pretty well for the $. the submersive sub is ~3x the cost.I didn't realize this was any kind of a treatment, but an answer to your question. My first line answered your question about worth.

AV123 has been in business longer and has recouped most, if not all their start up costs. They also have a broader product line and higher sales volumes to lower unit costs. I would bet the MFW is turning out to be a loss-leader.

Your original question came off rudely with your mediocre reference. I don't know if it is a stock design or if it has been modded to Mark's specifications. I would guess the latter. Mark is also getting some mileage from his knowledge, skill and reputation. It takes a long time to be able to get people to pay for that.

Stereodude

01-28-09, 11:27 PM

umm, how about ability to remain linear at extreme excursion. :pHow about a sub that doesn't need extreme excursion drivers to deliver high output levels?

cschang

01-28-09, 11:29 PM

Stereodude

01-28-09, 11:32 PM

to answer your question even though you haven't answered mine, the av123 mfw15 employs mediocre 15" drivers and amps. it performs pretty well for the $. the submersive sub is ~3x the cost.Well, how many people do you see complaining about their Submersive dying?

The Submersive has a better amp, and two better (more expensive) drivers. Just because they both use 15" drivers and have an amp doesn't mean they're equal.

LTD02

01-28-09, 11:36 PM

How about a sub that doesn't need extreme excursion to deliver high output levels?

that wasn't your question. i answered your question. you haven't answered mine. you are flailing now...all over the map.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=131640&stc=1&d=1233203762

Stereodude

01-28-09, 11:45 PM

that wasn't your question. i answered your question. you haven't answered mine. you are flailing now...all over the map.No one is forcing you to buy a Submersive or even consider it. Mark Seaton isn't seeking your approval of his price point for the sub. Just because you can't (or won't) see the value it delivers doesn't mean it isn't worth $2k.

Why don't you move along and fling your poo in another thread?

Mark Seaton

01-28-09, 11:49 PM

Guys please, play nice.

why do you now insult me?

what performance are you referring to? show me some $2k performance.

i didn't say anything about flashy or shiny drivers, just mediocre drivers. good performance can be achieve from mediocre drivers, just not sure why it takes $2k in this case.

Since you brought up the topic, what is $2k performance? I can think of a huge range of things I might hope to or expect to get in a $2k product. A subwoofer which fit in a 4-6" deep wall would have a very different set of expectations than something the size of my Terraform XL design.

In reality, the SubMersive is priced a little low. Put a sexy finish on it, charge $2,995-3,995, and I'd probably sell many more :rolleyes:, but I like sleeping soundly at night and that's just not my style... at least not without packing more value into what is delivered. Of course CEDIA type installers & integrators keep telling me it should be a $5-6k subwoofer. :eek:

There is a very significant amount of assembly and operational QC which goes into each SubMersive. These aren't mass produced in Asia, and I am close enough to go have lunch with the guys who build the cabinets any day of the week. My suppliers for all parts of the SubMersive are within the lower 48 states and are very responsive to issues which have been vetted out over time. Their flexibility have also allowed me to keep things pretty lean which means much less exposure to shifts in business and much more agility when appropriate. Most importantly, I want to insure I will be around to take care of even the very early customers like Sandbagger. March will mark 4 years of existence for Seaton Sound. :)

A significant portion of a SubMersive's cost lies in the amplification I have chosen. I've designed other subwoofers which are sold for less than my cost on the amplifier. Of course I have yet to find another option which offers the quantitative and qualitative strengths found in the design, manufacture, and support, let alone in the function. It's 1250W, switch mode power supply allows for honest 1000+W continuous operation while still keeping the total shipping weight of the SubMersive under the 150 lb limit where shipping costs skyrocket as freight is required. The 7 lb. amplifier also is very safe to ship in the rare event of service or DSP updates. While not given much value here, the amplifiers are also UL certified, which you see on exceedingly few amplifiers. No, it doesn't make it sound any better, but it does certify that we have made every reasonable effort to insure safe electrical operation.

Really the cost of the parts doesn't matter. I'm selling a polished and completed product which is up to my standards of operation and quality in real world use. I have heard much worse sounding subwoofers (even built a few myself!) which used what would appear to be much superior drivers. Even more so when it is just a case of mounting the driver in a box and assuming all is good. My own experience has shown often glossed-over details to matter in both measured performance and subjective listening. The many owners who have upgraded to the SubMersive from other respected, bang-for-buck subwoofers seem to agree.

As I have said for years here, it's the end result and listening experience that matters, and no single number will quantify all of those factors.

Mark Seaton

01-29-09, 12:04 AM

Time for some to take a breath and step back from the keyboard... at least while I add a few more comments. :p

by mediocre, i simply mean employing common driver technology and design. perhaps there is a better adjective for that.

Perhaps there is. :rolleyes:

"Mediocre" is an adjective that's pretty blind to the actual application and use with other negative connotations. I'll agree that the term "non-exotic" is appropriate in describing the SubMersive's drivers.

You're also probably looking at it from a perspective of a driver for driver comparison rather than the system of two drivers intended to function in the manageable size of the SubMersive relative to it's performance. For some perspective, the SubMersive's drivers have the same cone area as a single 21" woofer.

Mark Seaton

01-29-09, 12:43 AM

is this the treatment that everybody gets when they simply ask about performance for $ around here? it didn't use to be that way.

The disconnect here comes from what you seem to have inferred from a quick glance at the SubMersive. It shouldn't take much looking to see that I nor any of the owners claim the SubMersive to be the highest SPL/dollar subwoofer, although in a music context it would give most subs a serious run for their money (let's see how that gets pulled out of context:rolleyes:).

We all evaluate value differently. The reaction you received probably came from the inference that there was very little value to be had beyond output at low frequencies. Many posting have heard a SubMersive or 4, and while there may be a specific aspect where other subwoofers may pull ahead, they have heard the balance of strengths in the SubMersive, and don't see the evaluation as cut & dry as you do.

to answer your question even though you haven't answered mine, the av123 mfw15 employs mediocre 15" drivers and amps. it performs pretty well for the $. the submersive sub is ~3x the cost.

For the record, the driver in the SubMersive is much more robust and much more expensive than the MFW-15 driver. I would say your comparison is very fair. A single SubMersive has no trouble outclassing a pair of MFW-15s, extending deeper while being a bit more dynamic and smoother over the entire range. The comparison to 3 MFW-15s would get closer with strengths divided between them and a dependence on the qualities being compared. Of course the SubMersive does this all in a box very similar in size to a single MFW-15, with the earlier mentioned qualities not directly related to it's sound output. There is also the value in purchasing from Seaton Sound where you get much more direct access and support from myself where I do what I can to insure we get both the SubMersive and the entire system it is working with sounding as best as practical.

kawika36

01-29-09, 12:49 AM

Very nice. Is this your first sub? How big is your room? I am the real manic here. I have mine in a 1000cf room:D.

Not my first :D. I've been through a few AV123 subs (UFW10 and dual MFW15s) as well as a couple SVS offerings (PB10 and PB12-Ultra) prior to purchasing the Submersive. I bought the MFWs real excited for a Seaton sub, but found my self wanting more from them. Since Mark has a little discount going, and the Submersive has been my sub dream for a bit now, I pulled the trigger!

As for room size, the room is 11x18x8 with a hallway opening to the kitchen on one side, and a staircase on the other. Not the best room, but it makes due.

LTD02

01-29-09, 12:58 AM

does the submersive come with any peq capability? is there a link to the amp plate?

is there eq built into the amp, such as linkwitz transform or other to help get greater extension?

mark, i apologize for the word choice that set off a minor flaming of me here. i happen to believe that well engineered systems comprised of "non-extraordinary" (is that better?) components is the path to best value for most applications.

the UL listing is definitely a plus of which i was not aware. nice.

the amp is unusually high wattage for this application. the idea of smps in order to save on transport costs also is a value driver for buyers. that said, some smps amps tend to get a little weak in the bass...+/- probably doesn't matter for this application though.

as for what $2k of performance is, who knows. around here it is pb13u/conquest type performance. anywhere else in the universe, it is bose accoustimass type performance.

LTD02

01-29-09, 01:05 AM

There is also the value in purchasing from Seaton Sound where you get much more direct access and support from myself where I do what I can to insure we get both the SubMersive and the entire system it is working with sounding as best as practical.

this is a good point that i hadn't considered. if somebody has a problem or needs a little 'guidance' on setup, you will probably help them out. time is money and so for a novice purchaser that alone could be worth a couple hundred $.

bossobass

01-29-09, 01:08 AM

Mark,

I appreciate the nudge toward the high road, but I've become less of a 'step back from the keyboard' kinda guy where these sorts of flippant, condescending remarks are concerned.

It's my opinion that LTD02 knows next to nothing when it comes to subwoofer driver technology. His bringing up things like 'Ilkka-type testing', 'the big Epik 18', 'remain linear at extreme excursion' and citing the PB13 driver as a driver that (apparently in his opinion) isn't 'common' supports my opinion.

He isn't aware of the thousands of hours of painstaking attention to driver and amplifier details you've put into the Submersive. He hasn't read the thread, or, if he has, he certainly hasn't learned anything from the exercise because it's certainly evident what your design goals were as well as the results, Ilkka-type test results notwithstanding.

I understand, and everyone who read his post understands, what he meant by 'mediocre' because the meaning of the word isn't open to a wide interpretation.

I call Bovine Excrement. It was a flippant, condescending rhetorical question that needed to be called out. You shouldn't have to guess from what perspective he was probably looking at the Submersive.

Maybe you should consult Epik and look into some of those 'big 18s' or chrome your back plates and call them the Ultra version. Better yet, send one out for some 'Ilkka-type testing' because maybe you just threw some 'mediocre' parts in a box that you're over charging for and those tests will expose your lack of integrity.

G-I-V-E M-E A B-R-E-A-K.

The Submersive is one of the best values in the commercial subwoofer market. Anyone who would like to question my assessment, like I said above, I'm all ears.

Bosso

LTD02

01-29-09, 01:39 AM

It's my opinion that LTD02 knows next to nothing when it comes to subwoofer driver technology. His bringing up things like 'Ilkka-type testing', 'the big Epik 18', 'remain linear at extreme excursion' and citing the PB13 driver as a driver that (apparently in his opinion) isn't 'common' supports my opinion.

who cares what i know boss. this is the classic example of if you have nothing to say, attack the man. oldest strategy in debate. unfortunately, this is not a debate.

1. by ilkka-type testing, i was simplly referring to things such as frequency response at increasing power until compression, thd at various spl levels, etc. these are standards in the industry.

2. the big epik 18 has pretty good distortion at spl numbers. no arguing with that. http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/C2.pdf

3. the pb13u driver is an exceptional driver. to be able to achieve the performance (spl, distortion, etc.) that they do from a driver that size matched to the enclosure its in *does* represent a driver that can 'remain linear at extreme excursion'.

He isn't aware of the thousands of hours of painstaking attention to driver and amplifier details you've put into the Submersive.

who cares about his. for all i know the bose accoustimass has 10x the engineering hours as the submersive, maybe 100x. accoustimass is still a pos.

I understand, and everyone who read his post understands, what he meant by 'mediocre' because the meaning of the word isn't open to a wide interpretation.

just a difference among educated and non-educated i suppose. to the educated, mediocre is a word derived from latin meaning in the middle like median, as in unremarkable.

Maybe you should consult Epik and look into some of those 'big 18s' or chrome your back plates and call them the Ultra version.

wow, if you think the ultra is nothing more than chromed backed plates...well, 'nuff said.

G-I-V-E M-E A B-R-E-A-K.

here you go...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=131658&stc=1&d=1233211088

The Submersive is one of the best values in the commercial subwoofer market. Anyone who would like to question my assessment, like I said above, I'm all ears.

Bosso

claims without support are called platitudes.

ransac

01-29-09, 02:25 AM

just a difference among educated and non-educated i suppose. to the educated, mediocre is a word derived from Latin meaning in the middle like median, as in unremarkable. Based on the tone of your original question, some educated and uneducated people would apply any of the following alternate meanings of mediocre:
average, fair, middling, poor, second-rate

A better choice of words would have eliminated many posts from this thread and you wouldn't have had to take such a defensive position. Of course, you might be enjoying all this attention.

LTD02

01-29-09, 02:40 AM

Based on the tone of your original question, some educated and uneducated people would apply any of the following alternate meanings of mediocre:
average, fair, middling, poor, second-rate

A better choice of words would have eliminated many posts from this thread and you wouldn't have had to take such a defensive position. Of course, you might be enjoying all this attention.

obviously...

anyone can check the other threads that i have started. i try to get through the bs and get to the essense of the matter. there is room for some comedy along the way, but diversion was not my intent here. i have respect for mark and his contributions to this forum. i have learned a lot from him. i just didn't see what made the submersive worthy of $2k. don't throw a brother in prison for asking a question.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/homicidereport/images/2007/09/05/dennis_rodney_2_4.jpg

CADOBHuK

01-29-09, 05:15 AM

What makes a pb13-ultra or Conquest worth $1600? They don't cook your lunch either, they also "simply just" make bass. This design has two 15" drivers firing in the opposite directions, cancelling out each other's impact on the enclosure, same design as the one in the $20k Legend Audio Tikandi (http://www.legendspeakers.com.au/products/tikandi.html) speakers. The a7-700 from eD uses two of even more "mediocre" 15" drivers in a conventional ported design and sells for $1600 shipped. This sub has been slightly prefered over pb13 and conquest by an earlier poster in this thread, so the price seems more or less in line with products from other leading brands to me.

MIkeDuke

01-29-09, 08:04 AM

Not my first :D. I've been through a few AV123 subs (UFW10 and dual MFW15s) as well as a couple SVS offerings (PB10 and PB12-Ultra) prior to purchasing the Submersive. I bought the MFWs real excited for a Seaton sub, but found my self wanting more from them. Since Mark has a little discount going, and the Submersive has been my sub dream for a bit now, I pulled the trigger!

As for room size, the room is 11x18x8 with a hallway opening to the kitchen on one side, and a staircase on the other. Not the best room, but it makes due.

I think that you will be happy with a SubMersive in that room. Please keep us updated:).

JimP

01-29-09, 08:05 AM

Based on the tone of your original question, some educated and uneducated people would apply any of the following alternate meanings of mediocre:
average, fair, middling, poor, second-rate

A better choice of words would have eliminated many posts from this thread and you wouldn't have had to take such a defensive position. Of course, you might be enjoying all this attention.

He knows exactly what he's doing and worded his post to get a rise out of us.

If he was sincerely interested in just learning more about the sub, he has had several opportunities to correct his original post and move on but hasn't. Then he goes further by questioning our intelligence in the interpretation of the word "mediocre." I question one's intelligence who thinks they're being clever in playing word games.

MIkeDuke

01-29-09, 08:11 AM

The following remarks are mine and mine alone. They represent my own thoughts on this sub. If I can quote The Matrix again, "Morpheus, not everyone believes what you believe. " The reply, "My beliefs do not require them too" Not meant to be snotty, just making my thoughts clear. Also, not meant to be forceful. If I come off "hard" I am sorry. If I seem to have a lot of subjective thoughts in my posts, I am sorry for that as well.

Back it 2006 I heard about this sub. Someone who is respected on this forum suggested that I contact Mark about his new design when I indicated that I was looking for a sub to replace the one I had. Well, I did. Mark was nice enough to respond with a very detailed reply about his sub, his design, and goals. I knew then that I wanted one. There is not a day that goes by that I regret it. Is it the end all be all, absolute best king of the hill slay all comers beast of a sub that nothing else can compete with? Probably not. There are always other options. But given what it does, and how it performs, "I" think that it is worth it. Now, what do I know:p. I do not know technical stuff or how to read or perform those great tests that everyone loves. I know what I like when I hear it:D. And I really like this sub. I am not going to quote any numbers of how low or loud it can go. I will just say that I watched The Incredible Hulk last night and I was smiling from start to finish. That is all I need to know about it's performance:).

Stereodude

01-29-09, 08:16 AM

Time to ignore the troll. It's clear he isn't interested in actually discussing the performance of the Submersive. He just wants to get us all worked up by insulting it and accusing everyone of using "unproven platitudes" to describe it.

MIkeDuke

01-29-09, 08:25 AM

Yea, that it is for me. If some one want me to describe my own thoughts a bit more, just let me know. I can compare it to the other two other subs that I have personally had and some of those other ones that I have heard in the store I used to go to.

JimP

01-29-09, 08:37 AM

I have a problem of sorts and perhaps you guys can give me some insight.

Since the BMF doesn't seem to be coming out anytime soon and I'm tired of waiting I had narrowed my choices down to the submersive and the SVS PB Ultra 13.

In a moment of weakness (not kidding here) I decided to go ahead and get the Ultra 13. In a way, I'd still like to try the submersive but its unlikely that I would be able to get one here in time enough to make a decision on which one to keep. Nor do I know if Mark even has a trial period/return policy. I also don't want to find myself trying to ebay either sub.

I know that there was one owner of the submersive who also had the Ultra 13 and chose to keep the submersive. I don't think the difference was that dramatic, only slight. Also intergration and your room has a lot to do with how any of these subs perform. I've got about 6000 cubic ft open to the rest of the house and probably listen at medium levels which is below reference levels.

So my question to this group is given this information what would you do?

MIkeDuke

01-29-09, 09:02 AM

OK, I will try and be delicate. I will not make comparisons since I have not heard both. But, If I am not mistaken, there was someone who put a single in a 6000cf room and was still impressed with how it performed. Now, this is not to take anything away from the SVS. It also is a great sub. But regret and wondering are not nice feelings.

cliff257

01-29-09, 09:37 AM

No doubt I'm sold on this product. Like Mark said he could sell it for $4k and still sell plenty. I would pay that even though I have not heard the sub. I feel that way from the impressions I've gotten reading these forums. I'm pretty good ar filtering through the bs but all forums have it. It kinda seems to good to be true at $2k. Currently trying to round up some money for two so I will be getting in touch with mark here in the next couple of weeks. Thanks

Cliff

MIkeDuke

01-29-09, 09:43 AM

bossobass

01-29-09, 09:59 AM

who cares what i know boss. this is the classic example of if you have nothing to say, attack the man. oldest strategy in debate. unfortunately, this is not a debate.

1. by ilkka-type testing, i was simplly referring to things such as frequency response at increasing power until compression, thd at various spl levels, etc. these are standards in the industry.

2. the big epik 18 has pretty good distortion at spl numbers. no arguing with that. http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/C2.pdf

3. the pb13u driver is an exceptional driver. to be able to achieve the performance (spl, distortion, etc.) that they do from a driver that size matched to the enclosure its in *does* represent a driver that can 'remain linear at extreme excursion'.

who cares about his. for all i know the bose accoustimass has 10x the engineering hours as the submersive, maybe 100x. accoustimass is still a pos.

just a difference among educated and non-educated i suppose. to the educated, mediocre is a word derived from latin meaning in the middle like median, as in unremarkable.

wow, if you think the ultra is nothing more than chromed backed plates...well, 'nuff said.

here you go...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=131658&stc=1&d=1233211088

claims without support are called platitudes.

When they address my post sentence by sentence, saying nothing in the process and then post cartoons...well, 'nuff said.

Bosso

dlfromcanada

01-29-09, 10:52 AM

have you ever seen/heard one in person..... you might want to before making such statements

why?

*stops reading posts from LTD02*

ssabripo

01-29-09, 11:21 AM

anyone want to give me the cliffs of what I missed?

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u221/samcanadian/popcorn.gif

Johnsteph10

01-29-09, 11:52 AM

I'm glad this thread is back to the top -- even if it is for the wrong reasons.

I've said it several times...there is nothing in the sub world (other than some esoteric DIY) designs that can touch the Submersive at anything even remotely close to its price-point.

Myself, I wanted to go nuts. I'm getting 2 Terraform-XLs as I have the room/space and the need for crazy.

Flat-frequency response to the mid-single digits...a quality amp..quality components..first class customer support.

It makes the mass-produced large subs by Epik and eD seem like child's play. Most people don't seem to understand that simply adding a bigger driver and sticking a bigger box around it doesn't necessarily make it that much better.

The MFW-15 was designed by Mark but the implementation by AV123 was hampered by substandard parts, construction, and customer service. It is an excellent entry-level sub that also outcompetes many other subs in its class.

It is sad that there are too many people that totally rely on 1-2 well known people to help them choose a sub. I would guarantee that if Mark's subs were on "the list," people like LTD would be singing their praise.

When other people tell you what to think, it means you don't have to...I see it all the time.

Johnsteph10

01-29-09, 11:52 AM

anyone want to give me the cliffs of what I missed?

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u221/samcanadian/popcorn.gif

"I've seen **** that would turn you white." - Ghostbusters

What MJ experienced after hearing the submersive.... :)

Ricci

01-29-09, 11:59 AM

LTD02,
How do you know that these drivers are "mediocre" anyway? From looking at the cone? You keep bringing up Epik Conquest, SVS PB13 etc...Yes they have beefy long throw drivers in them. They are just big overhung drivers. High quality ones yes, but they aren't exactly reinventing the wheel. 2 mid grade, quality drivers almost always trumps one high quality driver anyway. Besides Mark's drivers are custom built for the application in the Submersive with the power on tap. They are what they need to be.

I don't see why you are comparing the Submersive to the Conquest, PB 13, and ED subs anyway. They are obviously engineered with slightly different targets in mind and the Submersive is better compared to JL Fathom's, Rythmik's and HSU ULS's. The Submersive is a compact sealed design that can be placed in a moderate sized room and be lived with easily. You are comparing it to big ported designs that are 2 and three times the size. I don't think anyone doubts that an A7-900 is going to win the sheer SPL award. Don't you think that if Mark's goal was to be the dollars per DB leader he would be doing things just a bit differently for that sub?;)

Even with their ports and larger enclosures I'm willing to bet that the Submersive MORE than holds it's own in the music range 30hz and up and below the range where the ported cabs unload from tuning the Submersive will have the upperhand easily. After all it has more than twice cone area of the PB13, more than the Conquest, and has a stronger amplifier than either.

MIkeDuke

01-29-09, 12:06 PM

"I'm getting 2 Terraform-XLs"
Very nice John. Those are truly beast I think. I can't wait to hear your thoughts on them.

"Flat-frequency response to the mid-single digits...a quality amp..quality components..first class customer support."
Sounds like why I like Mark's stuff as well. The SubMersive goes very low in my room also. If I did not have a stupid dip at 20Hz that is probably room and location specific, my chart would be pretty flat as well down that low.

MIkeDuke

01-29-09, 12:10 PM

Nice post Ricci :)

Johnsteph10

01-29-09, 12:16 PM

Mark Seaton

01-29-09, 12:19 PM

Mark,

I appreciate the nudge toward the high road, but I've become less of a 'step back from the keyboard' kinda guy where these sorts of flippant, condescending remarks are concerned.

Thanks for the support bosso. In the nearly 10 years I've been on AVS & other forums I've found a few minutes away from a response can do wonders. Hey, even I had an impulse to type an initial response of "...because I touched it." :p

For those who might not know me as well here, that's meant in extreme sarcasm, as in no way do I take myself that seriously. I have plenty of family and friends/gf to laugh at me and keep me grounded, and there's always Stereodude too. :p

My response to such inquiries is actually just as much an answer to those reading along who aren't sure how I would prefer to see such questions answered. Many who have followed my postings here, even those who own no products of mine, will often chime in with responses rather close to what I would have made. I just saw Ricci's post which nicely exemplifies this. Thank you Ricci. :)

The Submersive is one of the best values in the commercial subwoofer market. Anyone who would like to question my assessment, like I said above, I'm all ears.

Bosso

Thank you for the praise bosso. An Ultra13 does produce a little more output (2-4dB) around tuning. It's also larger, and there's a lot more bandwidth to cover than just the area around tuning, and in all of those other cases, the SubMersive has some serious strengths. The SubMersive fit a hole in the market no one was filling, and offers strengths I find to be very useful in creating a great listening experience in a variety of systems. It stays well under the "obscene" range of size, and offers dynamics and in-room depth that were not readily available before. Adding more SubMersives allows us to fill most any size room while providing even more room for creativity in setup and calibration. My designs have all been born of what I observed while calibrating systems and looking to get a bit more out of them, so I tend to focus less on the individual components in isolation and more on how they function in the system. In many cases, 1-3dB differences don't tell the story either way, as what happens at given limits matters just as much as what those limits are.

Mark Seaton

01-29-09, 12:23 PM

Seconded.

It really is funny how bass -- seemingly more than other audio-related topics -- is such a divisive subject.

We have the DIYs vs. commercial vs. small made-to-order outfits.
We have the slot vs port vs sealed groups.
We have the "size matters" group.
We have the PR group.
....and on and on.

Most people don't seem to understand that you don't need esoteric drivers with gold plating and beryllium quantum purifiers to have an amazing product.

Thanks John,

Low frequency sound is a funny thing. I know Art regularly mentions to me how he is amazed at how much more vocal visitors to his theater are about the audio than the video. Given the picture Art has, that's impressive, and telling of how much a factor the sound is in the experience. The trick is to make sure the sound is capable of making a big, or not so big, picture feel even bigger and more engaging.

Mark Seaton

01-29-09, 01:14 PM

I know this is off topic but will the sparks match the Catalysts in timbre so you can use them as surrounds? Also, Can the Catalysts be used as an in wall(surround duty).

The backs of them would be in another room, the front facing the theater.

Hi MK',

Your question largely was buried in the past page or two, but I can certainly answer it.

I answered a few related questions on the upcoming Spark in this thread (http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/seatonsound/vpost?id=3128984) on my own forum (http://www.seatonsoundforum.com). To directly answer your question, the Spark will be as optimal a match as a 2 way speaker can be to a 3 way. :cool: The same 8" coaxial driver, amplifier and DSP family is used in both which allows me to create a very close match to both the amplitude and phase response of the Catalyst above 100Hz. This plays a huge part in image placement as well as voicing consistency. You asked elsewhere about output capability. Being bi-amplified this isn't as clear a number to define, but basically this compact package is capable of 115-120dB @ 1m depending on the case being looked at.

The much larger and more powerful Catalyst is capable of 6-12dB greater headroom with more bass extension to allow for more flexibility in crossover selection as room acoustics dictate.

In it's current form the Catalyst (http://forums.seaton-sound-forum.com/tool/post/seatonsound/vpost?id=3044980) is intended to work very well in a flush baffle/wall situation where the large bevel on the front baffle makes it easy to snug up to an opening. I have some other options in mind that have been used in other custom applications I've helped with. While there would be additional lead time involved, it is possible to do these in what ends up looking like a giant in-wall speaker. Depending on how the speaker sits relative to the wall, you will need 10-17" of depth behind the wall for the speaker and amplifier connections, although it is possible to have the amplifier connections on top/bottom/side for about $250 more per speaker. Feel free to e-mail me if you have further questions specific to the situation you have in mind.

Dbuudo07

01-29-09, 06:18 PM

Hi David,

Thank you for the vote of confidence and approval.

While the $100 discount for new SubMersive customers, and $150 discount per SubMersive for those ordering multiples or additional subs is ending January 30th, I plan to continue to include the 5.1 Audio Toolkit (http://www.audiotoolkit.com/) with Seaton Sound purchases (one per customer) for the foreseeable future (at the current price of $1,995 + shipping). In the end it is a worthwhile investment that provides a highly reliable point of reference to insure systems are functioning as expected, and a means for myself and other owners to more directly trouble shoot problems which might be encountered.

I look forward to the brainstorming session when you cash in that winning lottery ticket. ;)

Your making the package even better with the CD.

For those who doubt this sub, it is my belief that the numbers don't lie. When I saw the graphs(especially Art's), my jaw dropped. The output throughout the FR is amazing, but the numbers down low are what really amazed me. I was always waiting for a lower priced version of the Thigpen design, because at $20,000, its not for everyone. Imagine what you'd get if you spent $20,000 on an all Seaton bass setup:D I know I can;)

Mark, if I win the lottery, you're going to need an 18 wheel truck to bring the equipment to my house, and a week for setup and calibration of the system(s). Let's just hope I win!

LTD02

01-29-09, 06:44 PM

LTD02,
How do you know that these drivers are "mediocre" anyway? From looking at the cone?

i thought mark talked about this. no extreme excursion. no special linear technology employed. just decent enough for what they are. i could be wrong.

You keep bringing up Epik Conquest, SVS PB13 etc...Yes they have beefy long throw drivers in them. They are just big overhung drivers. High quality ones yes, but they aren't exactly reinventing the wheel.

i mentioned those drivers when somebody flamed me by challenging that no manufacturers offer any special driver technology in a <$2k subwoofer. the pb13u could reasonably be considered a competitor as well, no?

2 mid grade, quality drivers almost always trumps one high quality driver anyway. Besides Mark's drivers are custom built for the application in the Submersive with the power on tap. They are what they need to be.

maybe, maybe not. the burden of proof of performance is on the manufacturer. as for "custom built", i'm sure all the competition would make the same claim. so what.

I don't see why you are comparing the Submersive to the Conquest, PB 13, and ED subs anyway. They are obviously engineered with slightly different targets in mind and the Submersive is better compared to JL Fathom's, Rythmik's and HSU ULS's. The Submersive is a compact sealed design that can be placed in a moderate sized room and be lived with easily. You are comparing it to big ported designs that are 2 and three times the size. I don't think anyone doubts that an A7-900 is going to win the sheer SPL award. Don't you think that if Mark's goal was to be the dollars per DB leader he would be doing things just a bit differently for that sub?;)

you have brought up the a7-900. obviously that is a different design.

Even with their ports and larger enclosures I'm willing to bet that the Submersive MORE than holds it's own in the music range 30hz and up and below the range where the ported cabs unload from tuning the Submersive will have the upperhand easily. After all it has more than twice cone area of the PB13, more than the Conquest, and has a stronger amplifier than either.

i am inclined to believe this. however, without measurements, how are we to know? :confused:

Stereodude

01-29-09, 06:47 PM

i am inclined to believe this. however, without measurements, how are we to know? :confused:Uh, listen to it? :rolleyes:

LTD02

01-29-09, 06:54 PM

Uh, listen to it? :rolleyes:

zingers are worthless. subjective analysis is a very inefficient method for making consistent comparisons. this is why we have measurements. jeez...

croseiv

01-29-09, 07:18 PM

The Catalyst setup looks super!!:)

Ricci

01-29-09, 11:30 PM

i thought mark talked about this. no extreme excursion. no special linear technology employed. just decent enough for what they are. i could be wrong.

There's none on the Conquest driver, or the PB13 design either.They aren't either using what you've termed "special linear technology". They are both just long excursion overhung designs. There is nothing wrong with that and they are good drivers I'm sure, but there's nothing special about it either. That's what I meant by 2 mediocre drivers trumping the one high quality driver. The Submersive drivers don't need extreme excursion because there are 2 drivers and more cone area. There is not enough amplifier power to use extreme excursion from both fifteens in the Submersive. (There isn't in the Conquest either.) The PB 13 because of the lower tuning and larger enclosure relative to the driver area is a different case.

i mentioned those drivers when somebody flamed me by challenging that no manufacturers offer any special driver technology in a <$2k subwoofer. the pb13u could reasonably be considered a competitor as well, no?

See above. Would you perhaps explain what this "special driver technology" you keep referring to on these drivers is? I'm not aware of any.

maybe, maybe not. the burden of proof of performance is on the manufacturer. as for "custom built", i'm sure all the competition would make the same claim. so what.

True, but this is where you have to use some judgment and assess the design of each SW. If you can't surmise what the Submersive very likely is capable of performing like, while also factoring in the reports from users who have had experience with other known high quality SW's, then nothing anyone else can say or attempt to explain will help you. It hasn't been 3rd party tested and neither have a LOT of other SW's. If this causes you distress perhaps buy one to evaluate.

you have brought up the a7-900. obviously that is a different design.

As is the Conquest and PB13 and F113 and every other SW.

i am inclined to believe this. however, without measurements, how are we to know? :confused:

Simple logic, deductive reasoning and plain old common sense work for me and a lot of other people.:confused:

RMK!

01-29-09, 11:44 PM

zingers are worthless.

Interesting and appropriate adjective as it describes every post of yours on this thread.

Welcome to my Ignore List.

LTD02

01-30-09, 12:02 AM

True, but this is where you have to use some judgment and assess the design of each SW. If you can't surmise what the Submersive very likely is capable of performing like, while also factoring in the reports from users who have had experience with other known high quality SW's, then nothing anyone else can say or attempt to explain will help you. It hasn't been 3rd party tested and neither have a LOT of other SW's. If this causes you distress perhaps buy one to evaluate.

it doesn't cause me any distress. why is it that nobody seems to be able to produce any measurements for this sub? the submersive seems to have some good performance potential and obviously has some fans, but without measurements what do we have? nothing. or as mark would say, without measurements, you are just guessing. if i "surmise its potential" as you suggest, i'll just get flamed even more. what good would that be?

sometimes i wonder about some of you...

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/files/imagecache/news/files/20061114_sheep.jpg

KyleLee

01-30-09, 12:23 AM

LTD02

01-30-09, 12:28 AM

anyone want to give me the cliffs of what I missed?

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u221/samcanadian/popcorn.gif

i asked what makes a couple of mediocre 15" drivers and an amp worth $2k.

then, instead of simply answering my question, the personal flame wars began.

Dbuudo07

01-30-09, 01:51 AM

i asked what makes a couple of mediocre 15" drivers and an amp worth $2k.

then, instead of simply answering my question, the personal flame wars began.

Let's try to end this:

Inroom response with usable output at 10hz(and lower) in a sealed design. I haven't heard of a sealed sub that has achieved this, even ported subs struggle to achieve that kind of output. The ones that are close to its performance are much larger than the submersive.

Because the drivers don't have to have high excursion to achieve their output, distortion is lower.

Great amplifier. If I'm correct, I have heard of the pb13u having an inadequate amplifiers by some owners(not bashing, just posting what I read). The mfw-15 has amplifier problems too.

At reference level, the cabinet does not move. Standing nickel on edge does not fall over. How many subs can say that?

Designed by a well respected and passionate person with more experience in building/designing really good subwoofers than most in the business. Not to mention that he is very close to the production of his subs to ensure very high quality.

Positive customer reviews ranging from lots of experience to very little with regards to audio.

Subjective reviews in the past have stated that between the pb13u and the f113, the pb13u has better output below 20hz, but the f113 is tighter and better musically. So far it seems that the submersive has trumped them both with a price right between them.

I think these reasons alone would easily make this sub worth $5k, but its only $2k. Name another sub that has accomplished all the above and is within its price range?

Now if you read this thread as you claimed you did, you would have noticed that Mark is focusing on getting subs to those ordering them. Rather than satisfying reviews junkies, he's focusing on his customers.. Remember, its not a big company. You keep saying you're just asking questions but your questions clearly are meant to call Mark out as if he's scared of having his equipment tested. Regardless of what you say, your questions are written in a rude way. For an "educated" person, you should have realized this, but common sense hasn't shown up in your posts yet. Mark has kindly and politely answered your questions. If you want numbers, read the thread, they're there for you. If you're not satisfied, be patient and wait for a review or buy one and have it tested. Otherwise shut up and get out! Stop ruining what was a really good thread for those interested in the submersive and related products.

And yes I am attacking your posts and I am being rude. A good saying for you to remember, "Treat others as you wish to be treated."

DaveUpton

01-30-09, 01:55 AM

LTD02, I agree with the rest here, you are out of line, keep it polite instead of that attitude your posts have.

Matt34

01-30-09, 02:17 AM

Let's try to end this:

Inroom response with usable output at 10hz(and lower) in a sealed design. I haven't heard of a sealed sub that has achieved this, even ported subs struggle to achieve that kind of output. The ones that are close to its performance are much larger than the submersive.

Because the drivers don't have to have high excursion to achieve their output, distortion is lower.

Great amplifier. If I'm correct, I have heard of the pb13u having an inadequate amplifiers by some owners(not bashing, just posting what I read). The mfw-15 has amplifier problems too.

At reference level, the cabinet does not move. Standing nickel on edge does not fall over. How many subs can say that?

Designed by a well respected and passionate person with more experience in building/designing really good subwoofers than most in the business. Not to mention that he is very close to the production of his subs to ensure very high quality.

Positive customer reviews ranging from lots of experience to very little with regards to audio.

Subjective reviews in the past have stated that between the pb13u and the f113, the pb13u has better output below 20hz, but the f113 is tighter and better musically. So far it seems that the submersive has trumped them both with a price right between them.

I think these reasons alone would easily make this sub worth $5k, but its only $2k. Name another sub that has accomplished all the above and is within its price range?

Now if you read this thread as you claimed you did, you would have noticed that Mark is focusing on getting subs to those ordering them. Rather than satisfying reviews junkies, he's focusing on his customers.. Remember, its not a big company. You keep saying you're just asking questions but your questions clearly are meant to call Mark out as if he's scared of having his equipment tested. Regardless of what you say, your questions are written in a rude way. For an "educated" person, you should have realized this, but common sense hasn't shown up in your posts yet. Mark has kindly and politely answered your questions. If you want numbers, read the thread, they're there for you. If you're not satisfied, be patient and wait for a review or buy one and have it tested. Otherwise shut up and get out! Stop ruining what was a really good thread for those interested in the submersive and related products.

And yes I am attacking your posts and I am being rude. A good saying for you to remember, "Treat others as you wish to be treated."

You said it a lot better than I was going to.;)

JimP

01-30-09, 02:40 AM

bossobass

01-30-09, 02:42 AM

The FR graph and design goals are posted in this thread. If by measurements, you mean progressive sine sweeps at 2M, GP, why don't you spit it out.

I find it hilarious that you would dismiss every subwoofer that Craig, Ilkka and Charlie haven't dragged out into a field and measured for how loud they'll play with what % of THD, which, BTW, includes 90% of all subwoofers ever produced.

You proclaim these tests to be the 'standard in the industry'. Really? What industry is that? The hobbyists industry? You need to widen your horizons a bit before you tell us what the industry standards are.

But I find it annoying that you proclaim it necessary only because you lack the ability to put 2 and 2 together for yourself with the information that's been made available.

You claim that without Ilkka's test results you have nothing, yet you felt perfectly justified, having nothing, in proclaiming the drivers to be mediocre.

You really don't see the hubris. "The drivers are mediocre unless you own up to my decree of the burden of proof which demands that you produce Ilkka-like measurements which I'll judge by mathematical formulae which will place your subwoofer on a list of 20 other subwoofers based on the industry standards as i decree them to be."

I asked for information from you. You proclaimed the PB13 driver to be 'an exceptional driver' (whatever that means), but posted no data to explain. The JLAudio F113 has an average 2dB more 'max clean' (whatever that means) output (by your 'industry standards') than the twice as large PB13 and it has an overhung driver (although the frame is pretty spiffy looking).

You posted a link to results for a subwoofer that the manufacturer (or someone) paid Tom Nousaine to measure in his house. The maximum 10% THD limited output (an arbitrary number) is 115.5dB at 32Hz (big surprise here, and funny that no one has ever seemed to notice that Nousaine's 'large room' adds a 4-8dB hump at 30Hz afforded to every sub he's tested). Yet, you've failed to note that Exodus Audio's WMD-15, measured in the same room by the same guy, gives only 1.5dB less average 25-63Hz, Nousaine's own decreed 'subwoofer range') output using the Tumult MKI, which has an inductance-induced roll off at the high end. Gee, I wonder what it would have posted with no Le roll off and another driver?

Finally, you've let us all know that you like sheep and Michael Jackson. Sorry, but that falls under TMI.

The anechoic FR is in this thread. Seaton's design goals that dictated the parameters of his proprietary drivers are stated from the horse's mouth, in this thread. The 'max clean output' numbers are inferred and easily deduced and posted by Seaton many times, including in this thread. None of this info is subjective.

Calling that 'nothing' is inferring that Seaton's information is somehow suspect. If you sincerely want or need further expansion on the info posted, reference it specifically and ask your question...and try to come down from your lofty perch before you do, as others have suggested. That will make it interesting and informative for all of us.

Bosso

Johnsteph10

01-30-09, 08:08 AM

Those are some excellent posts.

Bosso, congrats to you for keeping a level head and educating so many. You definitely deserve your name. :)

Mark's designs prove something special:

1. Quality 15 inch custom drivers
2. Quality high power, well-designed efficient amp
3. Quality bracing/design

All come together to make something much greater than the sum of its parts.

Seriously (and I have seen it), how many subs can you list that can shake a room while a quarter sits on its side on top of the sub? I, at first, was skeptical...but then I saw it happen.

Amazing.

And the point about having 2 15 inch drivers is important -- you're looking at more area than a 21 inch driver!

Another point well-made here is that there is no such thing as an "industry standard." Too many people take the testing of 2 people as gospel...when there tests are seriously flawed/biased and do NOT represent real-world testing. Are they good for comparisons? Possibly.

JimP

01-30-09, 09:18 AM

...snip...

And the point about having 2 15 inch drivers is important -- you're looking at more area than a 21 inch driver!

I think you're right and its one point that probably doesn't show up in objective testing.

[/QUOTE]
Another point well-made here is that there is no such thing as an "industry standard." Too many people take the testing of 2 people as gospel...when there tests are seriously flawed/biased and do NOT represent real-world testing. Are they good for comparisons? Possibly.[/QUOTE]

Have to diagree with you here. There's the CEA 2010 method that adds consistancy to how subs are measured. http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/svsound/826-new-cea-2010-method-measuring-true-subwoofer-performance.html

Johnsteph10

01-30-09, 09:36 AM

I think you're right and its one point that probably doesn't show up in objective testing.

Another point well-made here is that there is no such thing as an "industry standard." Too many people take the testing of 2 people as gospel...when there tests are seriously flawed/biased and do NOT represent real-world testing. Are they good for comparisons? Possibly.[/QUOTE]

Have to diagree with you here. There's the CEA 2010 method that adds consistancy to how subs are measured. http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/svsound/826-new-cea-2010-method-measuring-true-subwoofer-performance.html[/QUOTE]

Though I am familiar with that work, I will still politely partly disagree (how is that for a strong statement! :) ). I did forget about the 2010 work, though. That's why it is only a partly!

Measuring subs is like measuring speakers - certain aspects can be objectified, but, overall, it is an incredibly subjective experience.

Furthermore, the environment in which we listen affects the sound incredibly....another very difficult intangibility since every room is different. If we all had anechoic chambers install, however, we're ready to go! :)

I mean, we describe subs as "musical" "boomy" "airy" "tight" "relaxed" "unconstrained" , etc.

Ricci

01-30-09, 01:39 PM

it doesn't cause me any distress. why is it that nobody seems to be able to produce any measurements for this sub? the submersive seems to have some good performance potential and obviously has some fans, but without measurements what do we have? nothing. or as mark would say, without measurements, you are just guessing. if i "surmise its potential" as you suggest, i'll just get flamed even more. what good would that be?

sometimes i wonder about some of you...
]

You ignored the rest of my post and didn't answer my question. You want to know why a Submersive is worth $2000? I don't know. Is it? Is a PB13 worth what it costs, or any other sw? What about to me or someone else? The people who own it have stated that yes, they think it is as have some others. You obviously don't. This is an unanswerable question because no one can make up you mind for you. The facts that are available have been presented. Opinions have been presented. There are no measurements like Illka's or Tom Nousaine's tests for the Submersive. So the hard data on it is limited, but enough is there if you look. So there aren't max output and THD #'s to compare with the very few sw's that have been tested this way. That's what this is all about?

Johnsteph10

01-30-09, 02:03 PM

Ricci -- it might be that he wants to increase awareness of his own study of craigsub's sub results...which, not coincidentially, he appeared to bump up from oblivion this morning as well.

Let's get back on-topic about this wonderful sub.

I, myself, can't wait from the craziness that Mark will send my way in several months (hopefuly at the most).

My goal is to make milkshakes without a blender. :)

cliff257

01-30-09, 02:16 PM

I found it a while back but my search finger now broken. Can anybody post up a link for the objective info on this sub? That didnt sell me on it but it has a major WOW factor.

Mark Seaton

01-30-09, 02:41 PM

svs ultra is underhung..

beyond that, i agree with you, the submerse is a good subwoofer.

KSC designed IcePower amplifier, two capable 15's massed balance sealed config...not taking up the entire room and 500 pounds ** cough ED).what is there not to like about it?

The Catalyst is also awesome looking, good job Mark!

beyond linesource, coaxial designs are my second favorite... and arguably more practical.

Thanks Kyle,

While the amp does use a 1000W ICEPower module, it's not a KSC model. Brian from SpeakerPower (located in So Cal) supplies me slightly modified versions of his amplifiers and has been a tremendously reliable and responsive supplier.

I http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/images/smilies/heartbeat.gif the Catalyst, and long for the day when I can have a pair regularly on hand, although that's looking like that may happen sooner than later.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/images/smilies/dancebanana.gif

Mark Seaton

01-30-09, 03:07 PM

i asked what makes a couple of mediocre 15" drivers and an amp worth $2k.

then, instead of simply answering my question, the personal flame wars began.

Here's the simple answer of what makes the SubMersive worth $2k:

Pair of 15", 3" VC drivers optimized for this particular amplifier and box size.
Solidly constructed and well braced enclosure constructed of Baltic Birch Ply.
Very expensive and capable amplifier with transformer coupled input for easy means to remedy any unlikely ground loop issues.
Robust packaging to insure safe delivery
Careful QC & run-in of each subwoofer
It's designed and supported by me directly. :o

That's why it costs $2k. It's worth $2k because the real-world, in-room performance which is well documented here and on my forum makes for a great subjective sound which many have experienced and reported on.

Mark Seaton

01-30-09, 04:33 PM

i am inclined to believe this. however, without measurements, how are we to know? :confused:

I and others have posted many measurements in-room including sweeps I've taken at increasing levels to show what sort of performance is observed in different size rooms. I can tell you the approximate capability of the SubMersive under ground plane conditions, but I won't be posting detailed graphs until it warms up in Chicago and I take some new measurements in a reasonably ideal location... with time to add plenty of explanation.

Unless I have many hours to spend explaining more detailed measurements or have time to post a long explanation of what is shown, I'm going to keep focusing on getting SubMersives delivered and the other product designs to a readily deliverable state.

it doesn't cause me any distress. why is it that nobody seems to be able to produce any measurements for this sub? the submersive seems to have some good performance potential and obviously has some fans, but without measurements what do we have? nothing. or as mark would say, without measurements, you are just guessing. if i "surmise its potential" as you suggest, i'll just get flamed even more. what good would that be?

Detailed measurements can be very useful. As noted above, the ones I feel most understand and should be looking at are the ones posted from many real rooms of various sizes. Don't get me wrong. I've done plenty of the sort of testing you seem to be craving, and let's not forget that all of this testing grew from the Way Down Deep testing by Keith Yates (http://www.ultimateavmag.com/features/604way/). I was involved in this testing back in 2004 where you see the ContraBass measured from way back when I was still helping out there. Ed Mullen was the first to take the lead from Keith and test more subwoofers. Ilkka & the guys on AV Talk later expanded this further.

The data is very interesting, but the interpretation and understanding by the majority of enthusiasts is not as simple as some imply. With each measurement there are aspects you are and are not seeing which requires an interpretation of multiple snapshot as well as an understanding of their context to real use. While you can certainly identify a turd, once you get to higher performance levels, context of the data matters greatly, and 1-3dB tends to be close enough that other info or observations are needed which aren't generally reported before you can make any judgments of superiority. In the end you have to have the time and conditions to provide full sets of measurements such as Keith, Ilkka and AV Talk have done with all done under the same conditions. Providing "part" of this sort of data leads to gross misinterpretation and speculation, rather than the reality that you just don't have that info yet.

More measurements will be forthcoming this year, but I guarantee posting of them won't make anyone's SubMersive sound better or worse. :rolleyes:

Dbuudo07

01-30-09, 09:14 PM

You're the man Mark. Just awesome.

LTD02

01-31-09, 11:36 PM

Ricci -- it might be that he wants to increase awareness of his own study of craigsub's sub results...which, not coincidentially, he appeared to bump up from oblivion this morning as well.

nah, check my motives on that one. it was contribution to the public domain...a contribution to the art. not sure who else publishes (abeit short) papers in this way.

anyways, i threw the submersive numbers (15", 5.5 box vol, 1000 power) into the best ht model in the paper:

Regression Analysis: HT versus DRV_DIAM, BOX_VOL, PWR, VNT, HI_XMAX
The regression equation is
HT = 22.7 + 1.02 DRV_DIAM + 1.24 BOX_VOL + 0.00476 PWR + 2.83 VNT
+ 7.09 HI_XMAX
Predictor Coef SE Coef T P
Constant 22.736 2.924 7.77 0.000
DRV_DIAM 1.0182 0.2340 4.35 0.000
BOX_VOL 1.2420 0.2545 4.88 0.000
PWR 0.0047566 0.0006248 7.61 0.000
VNT 2.834 1.157 2.45 0.022
HI_XMAX 7.091 1.061 6.69 0.000
S = 1.656 R-Sq = 95.7% R-Sq(adj) = 94.7%

i calculate a home theater score prediction of 49.60. that's very good. beats the hsu vt3 ho + turbo as well as fathom 112. again, on ht predicted results. ties with the velodyne dd18, which was $5k sub at testing, which is consistent with mark's reports that some have suggested his price is too low.

i look forward to seeing the actual measured results.

Johnsteph10

02-01-09, 02:09 AM

I do say that it looks like an interesting mathematical eval of a partly subjective study..if nothing else, it proves a consistency.

There is no way from that study, however, you can subjectively measure a sub from a straight-on 2m outside GP if the sub fires down/sides (ie: away from the mic), has passive radiators, multiple drivers, etc.

It would require multiple measurements...from multiple sides.

How does your analysis take into account multiple drivers?

My experience is with ANOVA and STSS but that is from my college days... :D

bossobass

02-01-09, 02:28 PM

nah, check my motives on that one. it was contribution to the public domain...a contribution to the art. not sure who else publishes (abeit short) papers in this way.

anyways, i threw the submersive numbers (15", 5.5 box vol, 1000 power) into the best ht model in the paper:

Regression Analysis: HT versus DRV_DIAM, BOX_VOL, PWR, VNT, HI_XMAX
The regression equation is
HT = 22.7 + 1.02 DRV_DIAM + 1.24 BOX_VOL + 0.00476 PWR + 2.83 VNT
+ 7.09 HI_XMAX
Predictor Coef SE Coef T P
Constant 22.736 2.924 7.77 0.000
DRV_DIAM 1.0182 0.2340 4.35 0.000
BOX_VOL 1.2420 0.2545 4.88 0.000
PWR 0.0047566 0.0006248 7.61 0.000
VNT 2.834 1.157 2.45 0.022
HI_XMAX 7.091 1.061 6.69 0.000
S = 1.656 R-Sq = 95.7% R-Sq(adj) = 94.7%

i calculate a home theater score prediction of 49.60. that's very good. beats the hsu vt3 ho + turbo as well as fathom 112. again, on ht predicted results. ties with the velodyne dd18, which was $5k sub at testing, which is consistent with mark's reports that some have suggested his price is too low.

i look forward to seeing the actual measured results.

This list is based on a very limited bandwidth of 1-1/2 octaves (20-63Hz). Since the Submersive will easily extend to single digits in most rooms the bandwidth should be expanded to 3-1/4 octaves (10-100Hz), at least.

It also uses a one-room-fits-all point for evaluation. 4500 cubes does not fit that description. In fact, no room will. Since Mark suggests 1 Submersive for 3500 cubes or smaller a multiplier would need to be applied to arrive at a dollar value.

Since Mark has posted an anechoic FR and suggested that:

A single SubMersive has no trouble outclassing a pair of MFW-15s, extending deeper while being a bit more dynamic and smoother over the entire range.

Mark has also said, "An Ultra13 does produce a little more output (2-4dB) around tuning." which should result in the Submersive having a 2-4dB advantage above 40Hz and a 5-10dB advantage below 15Hz.

Other omissions in these calculations are port compression at maximum output, which will not present in the Submersive, power compression which will be less in the Submersive and THD from 20-10Hz, which will be 1/3 in the Submersive.

The necessary needed adjustments are: a) Bandwidth, b) A more accurate calculation for Sd (DRV-DIAM), c) a multiplier for room size and d) Input for Sensitivity vs PWR (since yours is a guess) which cannot be done since those numbers aren't available (although they can be guessed fairly closely based on Mark's posts).

The bottom line is that the Submersive will top the list in maximum THD limited output from 3-20Hz by a country mile (something that isn't considered at all in these calculations), it should top (or compete at the top of) the list in dynamic tracking ability from 32-100Hz (the music fundamentals bandwidth) and thus should easily compete at the top of the Subjective Music numbers.

IMO, this generally means that the Submersive is in the $1500-$3500 range in a room of 4,500 square feet, which would seem to confirm it to be the bargain all of its owners have proclaimed it to be, although using a flawed soup of very specific and very non-specific criteria that is missing some key ingredients.

Bosso

MIkeDuke

02-01-09, 02:56 PM

Wow Bosso, great post. I will let the pros take it from here since I am clearly out of my league.

LTD02

02-01-09, 08:17 PM

This list is based on a very limited bandwidth of 1-1/2 octaves (20-63Hz). Since the Submersive will easily extend to single digits in most rooms the bandwidth should be expanded to 3-1/4 octaves (10-100Hz), at least.

It also uses a one-room-fits-all point for evaluation. 4500 cubes does not fit that description. In fact, no room will. Since Mark suggests 1 Submersive for 3500 cubes or smaller a multiplier would need to be applied to arrive at a dollar value.

Since Mark has posted an anechoic FR and suggested that:

Mark has also said, which should result in the Submersive having a 2-4dB advantage above 40Hz and a 5-10dB advantage below 15Hz.

Other omissions in these calculations are port compression at maximum output, which will not present in the Submersive, power compression which will be less in the Submersive and THD from 20-10Hz, which will be 1/3 in the Submersive.

The necessary needed adjustments are: a) Bandwidth, b) A more accurate calculation for Sd (DRV-DIAM), c) a multiplier for room size and d) Input for Sensitivity vs PWR (since yours is a guess) which cannot be done since those numbers aren't available (although they can be guessed fairly closely based on Mark's posts).

The bottom line is that the Submersive will top the list in maximum THD limited output from 3-20Hz by a country mile (something that isn't considered at all in these calculations), it should top (or compete at the top of) the list in dynamic tracking ability from 32-100Hz (the music fundamentals bandwidth) and thus should easily compete at the top of the Subjective Music numbers.

IMO, this generally means that the Submersive is in the $1500-$3500 range in a room of 4,500 square feet, which would seem to confirm it to be the bargain all of its owners have proclaimed it to be, although using a flawed soup of very specific and very non-specific criteria that is missing some key ingredients.

Bosso

umm...nope,nope,nope,nope,nope,nope,nope, and nope. there are lots of different styles of subs tested in the craigsub ratings. after accounting for *all* those differences, a few statistical models show clearly that performance can be predicted from just a handful of variables. given the r-squared of the model of ~95%, there is only 5% remaining for *all* the other variables, including the things you mention as well as measurement errors of the tester (as well as my own errors for imprecision in calculating internal volumes, piston area, etc.). it's a shockingly good model. typically, anything upwards of 80% is considered a lock. this model, at 95%, is off the charts accurate. the data are also all public, so you can confirm the results for yourself. as for the validity of least squares regression, well, you will have to take that up with gauss. :p

otk

02-01-09, 08:41 PM

anyone have the pic of that theater that has 4 submersives installed ?

also, does anyone have pics of the submersive's drivers ?

thanks

ransac

02-01-09, 08:51 PM

anyone have the pic of that theater that has 4 submersives installed ?

also, does anyone have pics of the submersive's drivers ?

thanksFor the HT pics, go to post #5 of this thread, click on My HT in Art's signature, then click The Latest on the left and look at picture #8.

otk

02-01-09, 08:54 PM

For the HT pics, go to post #5 of this thread, click on My HT in Art's signature, then click The Latest on the left and look at picture #8.

thanks!

that's one hell of a theater :eek:

ransac

02-01-09, 09:04 PM

thanks!

that's one hell of a theater :eek:Yes. Art has much loftier goals than just deep, clean bass.

bossobass

02-02-09, 12:24 AM

umm...nope,nope,nope,nope,nope,nope,nope, and nope. it's a shockingly good model.

Yeah, I'm shocked.

Bosso

DaveUpton

02-02-09, 03:26 AM

LTD02 you must be an actuary, I've rarely seen someone so enthralled by their numbers.

Adam-DiVine

02-02-09, 11:28 AM

LTD02,

why don't you plug the new Danley sub into your numbers? It "only" has two 8" drivers, yet will give the submersive a run for its money in some areas. Saying that the actual implementation of the design has little to do with the overall performance is just not true.

Adam-DiVine

02-02-09, 11:29 AM

back on topic... When is my shipping notice going to come Mark:cool:

ssabripo

02-02-09, 11:34 AM

umm...nope,nope,nope,nope,nope,nope,nope, and nope. there are lots of different styles of subs tested in the craigsub ratings. after accounting for *all* those differences, a few statistical models show clearly that performance can be predicted from just a handful of variables. given the r-squared of the model of ~95%, there is only 5% remaining for *all* the other variables, including the things you mention as well as measurement errors of the tester (as well as my own errors for imprecision in calculating internal volumes, piston area, etc.). it's a shockingly good model. typically, anything upwards of 80% is considered a lock. this model, at 95%, is off the charts accurate. the data are also all public, so you can confirm the results for yourself. as for the validity of least squares regression, well, you will have to take that up with gauss. :p

LTD02, I may have missed something in my lack of forum browsing the past few months, but am I reading this correctly that you have a "formula" for craig's ratings? http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/ugh.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/bowrofl.gif

Craig's input, subjective impressions of his panel, and limited measurements, are a great input source, but how exactly are you arriving at a "formula"? furthermore, how on earth are you getting your rank and file from such formula?

Stereodude

02-02-09, 11:57 AM

ssabripo

02-02-09, 12:09 PM

He's cooked up a formula that attempts to predict sub performance based on past history. Taking an existing set of data and trying to curve fit something to it is one thing. Attempting to claim that your curve fit of the past will accurately predict the future is quite another.

and this "prediction" formula also takes into account basic variables such as Driver topology and motor technology, amplification behavior including transient response and such, and any other electronic stimulus such as Signal processing, I assume? :rolleyes:

Mark Seaton

02-02-09, 01:10 PM

back on topic... When is my shipping notice going to come Mark:cool:

Much more productive topic Adam. :cool:

I was away Saturday & Sunday, but I'm expecting to ship out a 1/2 dozen SubMersives by Friday or Monday (and similar the week following). Yours will make that cut. :)

Mark Seaton

02-02-09, 01:13 PM

He's cooked up a formula that attempts to predict sub performance based on past history. Taking an existing set of data and trying to curve fit something to it is one thing. Attempting to claim that your curve fit of the past will accurately predict the future is quite another.

Exactly... Fitting a formula to data only proves coincidence, not causality, which remains possible, but far from proven.

By this line of thinking I should be able to just swap change the drivers in the SubMersive to any dual 21" drivers (2x cone area) in the same size box and get a significantly improved result. If only it were that easy... :rolleyes:

Stereodude

02-02-09, 02:17 PM

By this line of thinking I should be able to just swap change the drivers in the SubMersive to any dual 21" drivers (2x cone area) in the same size box and get a significantly improved result. If only it were that easy... :rolleyes:Don't forget increasing the volume of the box too! :p

Johnsteph10

02-02-09, 03:44 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again.... his log regression statistical analysis ONLY proves that craigsub was consistent in his objective/subjective ratings under that ONE ENVIRONMENT in which they were measured. That is all it means.

It cannot be used under any other circumstances. Period.

Numbers can be manipulated to prove anything. We see it all the time with medical studies/experiments.

Warpdrv

02-02-09, 08:28 PM

I think Craig has the financial ability to aquire and judge subs and has a good idea of what is good and what is not based on performance , SQ, and output. But giving them a rating never really sat well with me or obviously many other people.

The scale just isn't reliable enough to be taken seriously.....

KyleLee

02-02-09, 08:34 PM

Thanks Kyle,

While the amp does use a 1000W ICEPower module, it's not a KSC model. Brian from SpeakerPower (located in So Cal) supplies me slightly modified versions of his amplifiers and has been a tremendously reliable and responsive supplier.

I http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/images/smilies/heartbeat.gif the Catalyst, and long for the day when I can have a pair regularly on hand, although that's looking like that may happen sooner than later.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/images/smilies/dancebanana.gif

oh ok, ya i thought KSC was the only distributor for icepower now, i guess i was mistaken! either way, i would really love to hear those speakers you have. There is just something to be said about having headroom and they look like they have plenty.

parapet

02-04-09, 11:44 AM

Much more productive topic Adam. :cool:

I was away Saturday & Sunday, but I'm expecting to ship out a 1/2 dozen SubMersives by Friday or Monday (and similar the week following). Yours will make that cut. :)

Will my sub make that cut Mark?:)

Mark Seaton

02-04-09, 01:22 PM

Will my sub make that cut Mark?:)

More amplifiers are due in next week which will allow the remaining SubMersives in the que to be finished. :)

Thanks again for your business.

kawika36

02-06-09, 08:49 PM

More amplifiers are due in next week which will allow the remaining SubMersives in the que to be finished. :)

Thanks again for your business.

Sweet! Any of the new Submersive owners get this bad boy home yet? New owner impressions? I'm still a week out I believe but I will be back with mine :D!

sean_w_smith

02-06-09, 09:59 PM

Since this thread has been revitalized I thought I would post my mini review of the submersive. Since I originally posted this I got to A/B some material between my two main theather rooms one in NC and one in Utah and the submersive becomes even more impressive. It clearly outclasses the EPIK Tower and the pair of MFW-15's. The thing that became more obvious on the day I compared the two was the lack of audible distortion from the submersive. Its just more effortless than the tower.

Hi All,

New member here. My name is Sean and I am computer engineer and avid audiophile and HT junkie. I got introduced to Mark Seaton via AVS reading about the submersive a couple years ago when it first came out and got to meet the man himself for the first time at an AV123 get together that was held at my house last year. That was my first time hearing the MFW-15 and listening to Mark's creations. That MFW-15 was not mine. I actually have a EPIK Tower in the basement theater in Utah.

Utah Basement theather with Tower in far left corner.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bOHj0kP1agQ/R9bvL2Qm-sI/AAAAAAAACJ8/vdrRaNPxfz8/s800/DSCN1315.jpg

I have an MFW-15 in Mojo for my living room theather here in Raleigh, NC.

Simple living room setup in Raleigh....
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bOHj0kP1agQ/SO_Y3yu2ZTI/AAAAAAAAElY/xgLSJ8QsG2s/s800/IMG_0347.jpg

I had a pair of rosewood MFW-15's in the upstairs theather in Raleigh that left me wanting more (before that HSU TN-1220). The pair of MFW-15's were stunning beautiful and sounded great on music and most theather but lacked some of that sub sonic beauty that I had grown accustomed. (They performed very well within the design goals Mark had when he created them but left me wanting).

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bOHj0kP1agQ/SSNCvxoMxmI/AAAAAAAAFgY/GN_UH5t1rIw/s800/IMG_0452.jpg

I called Mark a few weeks ago and asked him what he would recommend for my room. The Submersive sounded like just what I needed.... Ordering was painless and easy and mark delivered the finished product in ~ 2 weeks!!!.

Here' s a few pics of the new Submersive in native habitat.... before I get into listening impressions...

Rocket 450 and Submersive sitting in the rear left corner of the room. (not its permanent home).
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bOHj0kP1agQ/SVAU4ag8FKI/AAAAAAAAF2A/ePp5sc7Zpo0/s800/DSCN1559.JPG

All Corners are treated with wedge-traps and 4" open baffle panels in front of the wedge/tri traps.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bOHj0kP1agQ/SVAU4-tWSJI/AAAAAAAAF2I/Li93hqfymxE/s800/DSCN1560.JPG

The front Stage. OLD Mirage M3si and M-csi center. These will be replaced soon.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bOHj0kP1agQ/SVAU5d-oLRI/AAAAAAAAF2Q/3evvPCMURcI/s800/DSCN1561.JPG

View from Front Right looking back....
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bOHj0kP1agQ/SVAU5hzFK9I/AAAAAAAAF2Y/Udz8NXZRC54/s800/DSCN1562.JPG

View from Front Left looking back.... (there is a closet and full bath in the rear of the room)
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bOHj0kP1agQ/SVAU6OoXPJI/AAAAAAAAF2g/dzhMFPjK5Zk/s800/DSCN1563.JPG

So the box arrives and it was in impeccable shape. way better than any of the 5 MFW-15's I had previously taken delivery of and some of which were damaged. The packaging was first rate. Size wise the Submersive is pretty reasonble. About the size of a MFW-15 and much smaller than the tower or a pair of MFW-15s. the finish is truck liner. Rougher than the EPIK and not even in the same league as the MFW but its dark in this room 90% of the time anyway but I love some beatiful wood artwook.

Construction wise this thing is a brick. Its very dense and solid. All the angles and corners are perfect. you dont want to move it by yourself especially on carpet. It has nice rubber feet on it so sliding in on the carpet is not an option. Any thoughts on whether removing the feet will hurt the performance.

The room is obviously still under construction. I have to mount all the treatments and add a bunch more that are still sitting in the bed next door. I have a BFD and REW setup but did not find time over the weekend to expirement with placement and then EQ the submersive. That project will have to wait till spring time. Thanks to marks advise previously I did EQ the EPIK in utah and learn REW. Defintely a time consuming activity but the results were great....

I dialed the levels close with a rat shack meter and then ran Audessy in my usual 5 position setup for this room to dial in the level's and phase. Bumped the bass level 3db when I was done with that...

So enough already what does it sound like???

I listened to my normal staple of reference recordings from quiet to ridiculously loud. Mostly jazz but some rock and hiphop for good meaure.

The string bass on Diane Krall's temptation was taught and articulate. The MFW-15's did this very well but the submersive has an edge in tightness and cleaness of the sound. Its just more refined.... Same on Dire Straits, Mark Knopfler, Steely Dan and Jazz at the Pawnshop. Kickdrums also seemed to have a bit more definition on the submersive. Muscially this sub matches my big mirage mains when running full range for musical best. Dynamics wise no matter how loud I played the music the submersive seemed like it was barely breaking a sweat, clearly there was dynamic range to spare. The best performance on music for sub I have ever heard. Its not hugely better than the epik or MFWs but it was better. Easily as tight and musical as some $100K Wilsons I was listening to about 3 weeks ago.

So far so good....

Next up theater.... Ran through Open Range, Master and Commander, Incredibles, Pulse, WoW, Blue Crush, Spiderman, Ironman, etc... at or near reference levels...

Initial response..... Now this is what I have been looking for

What did I hear....

Incredible Punch
Incredible sub sonic gut massage. (the MFW's cant do this)
The amount of deep sub sonic energy on Blue Crush was sensational. Master and Commander had more punch and impact than any of my other rooms or choices... Same thing on everything I tried. The submersive disapeared when asked but presented tremendous dynamic range when needed. AND they did two things even the big epik did not do.....

1. They seldomly ever sounded strained. They seem to reproduce what was asked with ease and when you wondering if they were getting close to the limit it would just get louder still and still sound great.

2. When you do push it to the absolute limit its fails gracefully. no pop's from bottoming cones, no strange mechanical noises it just seems to stop getting louder.
WoW, Master and Commander and Pulse were at a whole new level. The Tower in utah can do some of this but it sounds like its working hard. Far more often you hear distortion and other strange noises coming from it under extreme circumstances. The submersive just doesn't seem to do this, it fails gracefully.... I do need to tame a few rattles in my room though....

Over the weekend. I watched Kung Fu Panda and Dark Knight completely on bluray. Dark Knight at -1.5db was excellent. The submersive is just so seemless and dyanamic. It really has taken my sound to the next level here... Dont know what else to say at the moment. Its clearly an amazing sub and while at 2k+ is not cheap I think the submersive is a tremendous value... I am thrilled with my purchase and I think will add a 2nd next year

Later,
Sean

sean_w_smith

02-06-09, 10:13 PM

Not my first :D. I've been through a few AV123 subs (UFW10 and dual MFW15s) as well as a couple SVS offerings (PB10 and PB12-Ultra) prior to purchasing the Submersive. I bought the MFWs real excited for a Seaton sub, but found my self wanting more from them. Since Mark has a little discount going, and the Submersive has been my sub dream for a bit now, I pulled the trigger!

As for room size, the room is 11x18x8 with a hallway opening to the kitchen on one side, and a staircase on the other. Not the best room, but it makes due.

coming from a pair of MFW15's I dont think you will be disapointed.

Sean

NCDave

02-06-09, 10:34 PM

sean_w_smith

02-07-09, 12:21 AM

Sean, you nut. ;) At some point, I'll bet we hear how the Submersive was really great, but eventually left you "wanting." Then we'll see the new pics of the stack of TNT in the closet next to the HT. :D

- Dave D (from C----)

There's no doubt its a sickness.... I already want another...

If I had some real world skills with tools... I am sure I would be a crazy DIY'er. Unfortuntely I am just a computer enginner with no carpentry skills...

Sean

MIkeDuke

02-07-09, 12:57 AM

lalakersfan34

02-07-09, 01:35 AM

Sean, nice review. As far as the packing goes, I think I was sort of a test bed. The sub got to my house unharmed, but I think after that, Mark started to rethink his shipping technique. Nice room BTW. I really hate all you guys with large rooms:p. OK, maybe I messed up the calibration that Mark did, although I think I set it to be correct. I think I am at about 72-73db for my test tone output. Now, my room is small(1000cf). This line got me "Dark Knight at -1.5db was excellent" I don't feel comfortable going above -16db in my room. I think I would get ear damage if I did that. How on earth can you guys listen at that level. Now, granted, I don't have treatments yet. But I really can't believe that it would make that much of a difference.

Do you mean that you listen at -16dB from reference? An SVS PB10-NSD would have no problem playing any movie at -16dB from reference in a 1,000 cubic foot room (at least the bass in its usable frequency band 20hz and up). I ran two PB10's in my ~1,000 cubic foot room and rarely noticed compression until I was at least -8dB, many times not until I was very close to reference level. Your Submersive probably isn't even working at all. Have you ever measured peak output levels at your listening position? If you listen at -16dB from reference I'd expect the loudest bass you get to be somewhere around 105dB (assuming you don't run the sub hot, and given your 72-73dB test tone, it looks like you don't).

My comfortable listening level when I watch Blu-ray movies with my dad in my ~1,000 cubic foot room is between -8dB and -5dB from reference. At these levels my Castle has absolutely no problems keeping up (calibrated flat with mains). Even at reference, very few movies can cause it to strain, and these movies are usually recorded hot (like WOTW) so that "reference" is actually a good deal louder than true "Dolby Reference level". Considering your nearfield placement and small room, I'd expect your Submersive to be able to handle most movies easily at reference level and probably even a few dB above!

As it is your Submersive must be absolutely coasting. I bet it sounds incredible :D.

tvckmiller

02-07-09, 02:31 AM

Dbuudo07

02-07-09, 12:38 PM

I can't wait until I get my finances together and I can get my Seaton Sound system.

Mark, have you shipped any Submersives to Canada yet? If so, do you know how much all the additional shipping and other fees at the border were? Also, do you have a solid price on the Sparks. I know you said they would be less than half of the Catylysts, but I'm trying to plan my savings. I'm thinking of using 3 sparks up front, something a little smaller for surrounds and two Submersives. Just thinking about it gets me excited.

Thanks for the help, and congratulations to all of you who have your Seaton products and are enjoying them. I'm a little jealous, but happy for you;)

Stereodude

02-07-09, 01:25 PM

Since they're Made in the USA shouldn't the fees be minimal?

Hughman

02-07-09, 02:29 PM

Since they're Made in the USA shouldn't the fees be minimal?

I believe the HS classification for a subwoofer such as the submersive carries a 6.5% duty which today is about $160 CAD. Add to that about $100 CAD for brokerage fees

8518.22.00 00 - -Multiple loudspeakers, mounted in the same enclosure NMB 6.5%

Dbuudo07

02-07-09, 02:41 PM

8518.22.00 00 - -Multiple loudspeakers, mounted in the same enclosure NMB 6.5%

Sorry, but I'm not sure what this means. Are you saying the speakers are going to be shipped in the same package? I've never purchased speakers or anything large from the USA. Thanks for the info.

Hughman

02-07-09, 03:05 PM

The number and description is the HS classification number with description and the associated duty if importing product into Canada from the USA. For Canadian customers Mark should glue an ear-clip on the side of the sub so it then could be classified as a telephone headset with zero associated duties.

Dbuudo07

02-07-09, 03:10 PM

MIkeDuke

02-07-09, 04:44 PM

Do you mean that you listen at -16dB from reference? An SVS PB10-NSD would have no problem playing any movie at -16dB from reference in a 1,000 cubic foot room (at least the bass in its usable frequency band 20hz and up). I ran two PB10's in my ~1,000 cubic foot room and rarely noticed compression until I was at least -8dB, many times not until I was very close to reference level. Your Submersive probably isn't even working at all. Have you ever measured peak output levels at your listening position? If you listen at -16dB from reference I'd expect the loudest bass you get to be somewhere around 105dB (assuming you don't run the sub hot, and given your 72-73dB test tone, it looks like you don't).

My comfortable listening level when I watch Blu-ray movies with my dad in my ~1,000 cubic foot room is between -8dB and -5dB from reference. At these levels my Castle has absolutely no problems keeping up (calibrated flat with mains). Even at reference, very few movies can cause it to strain, and these movies are usually recorded hot (like WOTW) so that "reference" is actually a good deal louder than true "Dolby Reference level". Considering your nearfield placement and small room, I'd expect your Submersive to be able to handle most movies easily at reference level and probably even a few dB above!

As it is your Submersive must be absolutely coasting. I bet it sounds incredible :D.

You got it half right. With it at -16 I can hit up to 107-110 on WOTW without even breaking a sweat but the room feels like it is going to fly appart. I listen to it a -17db for the most part. I have a Halo C2 that is THXUltraII certified so I am assuming that 0 on the preamp equals reference level. The room really shakes hard if I crank it. That is part of the reason why I wanted this sub. The sub can take it without question. It's me that's affraid :pI wanted to make sure that I had lots of headroom. I watched Live Free or Die Hard the other night and I was quite comfortable at -17db. I don't care that I may not be using all the sub has. At least I know that I am not over working it and if I move to a bigger room, I will be set.

Stereodude

02-07-09, 07:35 PM

I believe the HS classification for a subwoofer such as the submersive carries a 6.5% duty which today is about $160 CAD. Add to that about $100 CAD for brokerage fees

8518.22.00 00 - -Multiple loudspeakers, mounted in the same enclosure NMB 6.5%Uh... You haven't heard of NAFTA? There is no duty for goods made in the Canada, US, or Mexico moving between those three countries. The Submersive is made in the USA, so how is there going to be a duty bringing it into Canada?

Hughman

02-07-09, 09:10 PM

Uh... You haven't heard of NAFTA? There is no duty for goods made in the Canada, US, or Mexico moving between those three countries. The Submersive is made in the USA, so how is there going to be a duty bringing it into Canada?

No never heard of NAFTA :rolleyes: It's not quite that simplistic , there are rules of origin which must me met before a product can qualify for NAFTA treatment. Products can qualify through meeting the requirements of Tariff shift, regional content value, or de minimis and all are methods of determining origin. Though the subwoofer is assembled in the USA there's a very good chance the amp/parts, driver/parts, and birch plywod are ultimately produced in non NAFTA countries and where these parts make up a substantial portion of the sub that would likely disqualify it from NAFTA treatment. I don't know where the Submersive amp and driver are built or where plywood and other parts are sourced prior to assembly but in this age of outsourcing and some knowledge of the probable source of the plywood I'd be very surprised if everything is a product of NAFTA countries. I doubt if the origin of this sub, for NAFTA purposes, is as cut and dry as you believe it to be. Perhaps the sub does meet country of origin requirements and if so that's great.

Even if a product is wholly produced within Canada or the USA that doesn't necessarily qualify it for duty free status, take a look at the history of imported lumber from Canada for instance.

Dbuudo07

02-07-09, 10:07 PM

No never heard of NAFTA :rolleyes: It's not quite that simplistic , there are rules of origin which must me met before a product can qualify for NAFTA treatment. Products can qualify through meeting the requirements of Tariff shift, regional content value, or de minimis and all are methods of determining origin. Though the subwoofer is assembled in the USA there's a very good chance the amp/parts, driver/parts, and birch plywod are ultimately produced in non NAFTA countries and where these parts make up a substantial portion of the sub that would likely disqualify it from NAFTA treatment. I don't know where the Submersive amp and driver are built or where plywood and other parts are sourced prior to assembly but in this age of outsourcing and some knowledge of the probable source of the plywood I'd be very surprised if everything is a product of NAFTA countries. I doubt if the origin of this sub, for NAFTA purposes, is as cut and dry as you believe it to be. Perhaps the sub does meet country of origin requirements and if so that's great.

Even if a product is wholly produced within Canada or the USA that doesn't necessarily qualify it for duty free status, take a look at the history of imported lumber from Canada for instance.

I have a question for you or anyone who can answer it as I do not fully understand NAFTA and it will affect my Seaton purchases. How is it determined whether or not a product qualifies for NAFTA status? Is it a certification that must be applied for by the manufacture? I hope Marks' products qualify for it. If anyone in Canada purchased any of Seaton sounds products, could you give us a description of your experience?

Has anyone tried Star Wars: Episode 2? The scene right after the text finishes scrolling and the princesses ship flies over the camera. That is a pretty intense bass moment in my system, so I'm guessing the submersive might scare a few with that scene.