Hi Mark,

I sent you an e-mail on the 30th. Still no response. :(

Agree with Adam. Sometimes he takes a bit of time, but don't worry, he will get back to you.

Kain

I did spend 7 months in Dubai.
What a City! Everything there is build to be the best. Malls, towers etc.

Ray

Kain

I did spend 7 months in Dubai.
What a City! Everything there is build to be the best. Malls, towers etc.

Ray When did you spend 7 months in Dubai? And yeah, Dubai is a pretty interesting place considering what is being built here.

I used to own a Fathom F113 and had the desire for something that dug a little deeper. As you all know in this hobby, it also tends to be the case that we switch out equipment just for heck of it. I sold the F113 for a Hsu ULS-15. While I was able to accomplish my initial goal (I had flat in-room response to 5Hz) I lost much of the effortless midbass that the Fathom provided. The Hsu was also unable to match the JL's clean output at higher volumes. Consequently, the Hsu is now for sale.

I could have probably solved these issues with a second ULS-15 (and addressed any particular room issues as well) but WAF dictated a single sub solution. Enter the SubMersive.

I have been eyeing the SubMersive since its release in 2006 but went with the Fathom at that time because of the abundance of rave reviews. Hindsight is 20/20 and I now wish I had gone with the Seaton product instead.

The SubMersive is far and away the better sub in every respect except for finish and physical size. It hits harder, faster, cleaner, and with more authority than the Fathom or the Hsu. It goes very deep as well (almost flat to 6Hz in my room) and gives up nothing at higher volumes. It has tremendous midbass capabilities and is even harder to localize than the Fathom was (which was no slouch in that department). Some others have mentioned that the SubMersive's true differentiating factor is the uncanny ability to start and stop at a moment's notice. I have never before had the pleasure of such instantenous room pressurization. And the decay is just as dramatic.

Another benefit is the inherently inert box due to the opposing drivers. With both the JL and the Hsu I had to use an Auralex Subdude to limit as much physical energy as possible from being transferred to my wood floor. Without the Subdude, movie watching would result in numerous vibrations from the adjoining dining room and kitchen. However, the addition of the Subdude ruined the aesthetic appeal of the small, sealed subs. The SubMersive has no such issues. No energy is transferred to the floor and therefore its even a more effective solution than the combination of the Subdude and my other subs.

I mentioned finish as an area where the SubMersive falls behind some of the other commercial offerings. There is no denying this. While it might be rugged, it cannot be compared to the satin finishes of the JL and the Hsu. However, the fit and overall quality of components is better than the Hsu and almost on par with the excellent JL. The stepped volume control of the amp, the snug XLR connections, and the Neutrik power connector all indicate this is a very well made and very serious piece of gear.

There are certain scenes that I consider personal benchmarks for subwoofer performance. While some of these are older scenes, I have listened to them with so many different subs, I can compare them effectively. Just for information's sake, I have owned the following: Bose AM-5, Bic H-100, SVS PB12-Plus/2, JL F113, Epik Conquest (in my father's theater), Hsu ULS-15, and now the SubMersive. The rest of the gear is an Outlaw 990 preamp, Earthquake Cinenova Grande 7 amp, Gallo Reference 3.1 fronts, Reference center, and Due surrounds. Room is part of an open layout but is 13' x 19' with very high sloped cathedral ceilings.

I have never heard gunshots from Open Range sound so effortless. In fact, the gunshots and the opening thunder clap made my 6'4" 250lb friend literally leap off of the couch! Additionally, the fight sequence from the Matrix has one scene where Morpheus puts his knee through the floor. This easily demonstrates the speed at which the SubMersive can add to the weight of a scene, it's absolutely amazing. Another scene I like to use is the NYC flood scene in The Day After Tomorrow. My entire room was pressurized with uncanny ease. Other scenes tested were from Master and Commander, Finding Nemo, Star Wars Ep. 2, Black Hawk Down, etc. I have still to find the upper limits of what the SubMersive can do. In fact, I am sure I will find the limits elsewhere in my system, my room, or my townhome neighbor's room before the SubMersive gives up.

I also use the SubMersive for music. I find the integration with my mains so cohesive that I have them crossed at 80Hz. I was always impressed with the JL's ability to disappear during a music track with a fast bass line. The SubMersive is even better. The same friend I mentioned earlier could not even believe the sub was on during one passage until I turned it off and the music lost all of its detailed depth.

I apologize for the long post, I never intended to go on for so long. I am truly in awe of the ability of this sub and my quest has ended (for now of course). If and when I move into a larger space, I will simply augment with another SubMersive.

I also wanted to mention that Mark Seaton is very gracious to communicate with. While he is a busy person and can sometimes take a day or two to respond, his responses were always detailed and thoughtful.

I have no hesitation in recommending the SubMersive to anyone looking for what is, in my opinion, the best commercial subwoofer on the market today.

Here is the frequency response in my room (post EQ with a BFD):

http://www.benzandbeamer.com/images/submersive_response.jpg
Very nice and informative review vishal, it is most appreciated.

Incidentally, your write up has helped greatly to wipe off the frustrations I had having to wait while the shipment of my multiple SubMersives and Catalysts got repeatedly delayed. I am so glad they have now shipped (many thanks Mark!)

This shipment is destined for a relatively long journey and will begin active life in Africa where I happen to live currently, so it may be a while before my own impressions would enter the threads; but, hey, the reviews currently online and being added to all the time, have, IMHO, given the SubMersive in particular - and more recently the Catalysts - a huge leap beyond any doubt about their appropriateness, effectiveness, potency, and uniqueness. So I believe I have a much better sonic life ahead of me. :D:D:D

Very nice and informative review vishal, it is most appreciated.

Incidentally, your write up has helped greatly to wipe off the frustrations I had having to wait while the shipment of my multiple SubMersives and Catalysts got repeatedly delayed. I am so glad they have now shipped (many thanks Mark!)

This shipment is destined for a relatively long journey and will begin active life in Africa where I happen to live currently, so it may be a while before my own impressions would enter the threads; but, hey, the reviews currently online and being added to all the time, have, IMHO, given the SubMersive in particular - and more recently the Catalysts - a huge leap beyond any doubt about their appropriateness, effectiveness, potency, and uniqueness. So I believe I have a much better sonic life ahead of me. :D:D:D
... and ... what do I know ... that was my 100th post, yeah! (Since 2003 ;))

with it being an ice amp and power at idle that low, there is basicly no reason to turn it off.

The only time mine has been turned off since I got it was when I went to africa for a month long vacation. but just about everything in the house got unplugged then too.

Month long vacation to Africa huh? Seeing as the job market over here sucks...I heard Somalia is taking resumes for gun boat captains. :D Captain Kevin... and his midget stripper "Parrot" :)

Originally Posted by darthray
Kain

I did spend 7 months in Dubai.
What a City! Everything there is build to be the best. Malls, towers etc.

Ray

When did you spend 7 months in Dubai? And yeah, Dubai is a pretty interesting place considering what is being built here.

5 years ago.
What amaza me, was every High rise are built like a competition to each other.
It is the Las Vagas of the middle East.

Good Luck in the choice for your Sub, because the shipping would be very expensive for such a long trip arround the word.

Ray

I used to own a Fathom F113 and had the desire for something that dug a little deeper. As you all know in this hobby, it also tends to be the case that we switch out equipment just for heck of it. I sold the F113 for a Hsu ULS-15. While I was able to accomplish my initial goal (I had flat in-room response to 5Hz) I lost much of the effortless midbass that the Fathom provided. The Hsu was also unable to match the JL's clean output at higher volumes. Consequently, the Hsu is now for sale.

I could have probably solved these issues with a second ULS-15 (and addressed any particular room issues as well) but WAF dictated a single sub solution. Enter the SubMersive.

I have been eyeing the SubMersive since its release in 2006 but went with the Fathom at that time because of the abundance of rave reviews. Hindsight is 20/20 and I now wish I had gone with the Seaton product instead.

The SubMersive is far and away the better sub in every respect except for finish and physical size. It hits harder, faster, cleaner, and with more authority than the Fathom or the Hsu. It goes very deep as well (almost flat to 6Hz in my room) and gives up nothing at higher volumes. It has tremendous midbass capabilities and is even harder to localize than the Fathom was (which was no slouch in that department). Some others have mentioned that the SubMersive's true differentiating factor is the uncanny ability to start and stop at a moment's notice. I have never before had the pleasure of such instantenous room pressurization. And the decay is just as dramatic.

Another benefit is the inherently inert box due to the opposing drivers. With both the JL and the Hsu I had to use an Auralex Subdude to limit as much physical energy as possible from being transferred to my wood floor. Without the Subdude, movie watching would result in numerous vibrations from the adjoining dining room and kitchen. However, the addition of the Subdude ruined the aesthetic appeal of the small, sealed subs. The SubMersive has no such issues. No energy is transferred to the floor and therefore its even a more effective solution than the combination of the Subdude and my other subs.

I mentioned finish as an area where the SubMersive falls behind some of the other commercial offerings. There is no denying this. While it might be rugged, it cannot be compared to the satin finishes of the JL and the Hsu. However, the fit and overall quality of components is better than the Hsu and almost on par with the excellent JL. The stepped volume control of the amp, the snug XLR connections, and the Neutrik power connector all indicate this is a very well made and very serious piece of gear.

There are certain scenes that I consider personal benchmarks for subwoofer performance. While some of these are older scenes, I have listened to them with so many different subs, I can compare them effectively. Just for information's sake, I have owned the following: Bose AM-5, Bic H-100, SVS PB12-Plus/2, JL F113, Epik Conquest (in my father's theater), Hsu ULS-15, and now the SubMersive. The rest of the gear is an Outlaw 990 preamp, Earthquake Cinenova Grande 7 amp, Gallo Reference 3.1 fronts, Reference center, and Due surrounds. Room is part of an open layout but is 13' x 19' with very high sloped cathedral ceilings.

I have never heard gunshots from Open Range sound so effortless. In fact, the gunshots and the opening thunder clap made my 6'4" 250lb friend literally leap off of the couch! Additionally, the fight sequence from the Matrix has one scene where Morpheus puts his knee through the floor. This easily demonstrates the speed at which the SubMersive can add to the weight of a scene, it's absolutely amazing. Another scene I like to use is the NYC flood scene in The Day After Tomorrow. My entire room was pressurized with uncanny ease. Other scenes tested were from Master and Commander, Finding Nemo, Star Wars Ep. 2, Black Hawk Down, etc. I have still to find the upper limits of what the SubMersive can do. In fact, I am sure I will find the limits elsewhere in my system, my room, or my townhome neighbor's room before the SubMersive gives up.

I also use the SubMersive for music. I find the integration with my mains so cohesive that I have them crossed at 80Hz. I was always impressed with the JL's ability to disappear during a music track with a fast bass line. The SubMersive is even better. The same friend I mentioned earlier could not even believe the sub was on during one passage until I turned it off and the music lost all of its detailed depth.

I apologize for the long post, I never intended to go on for so long. I am truly in awe of the ability of this sub and my quest has ended (for now of course). If and when I move into a larger space, I will simply augment with another SubMersive.

I also wanted to mention that Mark Seaton is very gracious to communicate with. While he is a busy person and can sometimes take a day or two to respond, his responses were always detailed and thoughtful.

I have no hesitation in recommending the SubMersive to anyone looking for what is, in my opinion, the best commercial subwoofer on the market today.

Here is the frequency response in my room (post EQ with a BFD):

http://www.benzandbeamer.com/images/submersive_response.jpg


While that is an excellent FR curve, it reminds me of the Bag End InfraSub with its 18 inch driver, and the claim of response to 8 Hz.

When the Bag End was tested it could acutally reproduce 8 Hz, but the volume was far below the threshold of audibility.

At 10 Hz the threshold of audibility is ~100 db.

If you really want us to see how your Submersive sounds at healthy volumes, please rerun the FR curve with a baseline of 105 db.

Professional testers run FR curves at 5 db intervals starting at no less than 85 db and going all the way to 115 db.

You are far from the first person to run the FR curve with the Submersive at levels that put no stress on the subwoofer.

If I was satisfied with 72 db it wouldn't take a Submersiver to satisfy me.

PS I can understand if you are reluctant to subject your Submersive to the kind of high level testing that I am looking for.

spyboy,
Here's Warren Buffet's measurements that Mark poster back in Dec. '06.
Now you see what had me so busy last week with both WarrenBuffet's and Art's subwoofers to deliver and install. I've also been wrestling with some laptop issues and I hadn't had a chance to post measurements taken in WarrenBuffet's system. Here is a before and after EQ measurement where we used the Behringer DEQ2496 that was already in the system. I did some further shaping of the response while listening, as we really didn't need the small ~4dB elevation in the 25Hz range, so the response ended with should have the low end pulled down a couple dB further. Also note this was without the main speakers playing, as we adjusted the system so the recession at 70Hz was filled in by the Rocket RS-1000s and RSC-200. Remember this room is open to the rest of the 1st floor for 2/3rds of what would be the front left wall.

Dual SubMersives in-room, before/after EQ (http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/Grew-SM1-response.jpg)

In checking out what happens as the level is incremented higher, here is what was observed:

Dual SubMersives in-room, increasing output (http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/Grew-hi-output.jpg)
Next time, don't be so childish and just ask for what you want, instead of trying to call someone out.

Thanks David. other than the fact that those charts use 2 Submersives, they are the start of what I am looking for.

The next part are the distortion measurements. If you have a link, I'd love to see it.

Also, as long as owners choose to display graphs taken at 72-78 db, instead of 100-105 db (or higher), I will continue to point it out.

Thanks David. other than the fact that those charts use 2 Submersives, they are the start of what I am looking for.

The next part are the distortion measurements. If you have a link, I'd love to see it.

Also, as long as owners choose to display graphs taken at 72-78 db, instead of 100-105 db (or higher), I will continue to point it out.

what is it you're pointing out ?

No problem spyboy. I know what you're looking for and I think you'll get all the measurments in the summer. Mark said he's going to try his best to take some groundplane readings when the weather improves. I would like to see the distortion measurments too. I expect they'll be low though.

Even though there are two subs in that graph, the room is open to the house and they still achieve 108db@10hz. With 6db co-location gain, 1 sub still gives 102db@10hz at the main seat. That's impressive to me.

what is it you're pointing out ?


If you can't understand (my example using the Bag End doing 8 Hz), I'm not going to waste my breath trying to explain it.

If you can't understand (my example using the Bag End doing 8 Hz), I'm not going to waste my breath trying to explain it.

are you this charming in person ?

:)

If you can't understand (my example using the Bag End doing 8 Hz), I'm not going to waste my breath trying to explain it.

Since this is a forum which is supposedly for the intention of learning, how about I lend you one of my lungs so you can waste my breath instead?

Mr. Seaton any chance i could come over for a listen i am in the chicagoland area ....to be more specific where are you located in Chicago? also your impression of how your sub plays on the bottom 2 octaves and below 10 cycles?


how many am i going to need to be able to play down low... 105db @ 2.5 cycles ?
any distortion figures?
for me this is only for 2 channel music it will be crossed over @ 30 cycles so i am not worried about the upper 2 octaves

can i call you?..

Lawrence

mistake post. Hit quote instead of edit

Spyboy ... Please take this in the humourous tone in which it is meant:

You are starting to sound like the guy who thinks he is an expert on women because he reads Playboy and Penthouse.

You are not doing anything with all these subs, other than repeating what you have read from "professional reviewers", and you are getting meaner about it, too.

Lighten up, old friend. :)

vishal, HyperM3--

Nice write-ups on your Submersive first impressions. I'm glad to see others with ridiculously overpowered subs for their townhomes such as myself.
Doesn't it put a big smile on your face when you get home and see that both of your neighbors cars are not there?
When I get home and see that, there is no question as to what I'm about to do...WOTW machines emerge at reference or some tracks from Realm of Excursion at very elevated levels.

enjoy your submersives and if you get a chance post up some pics or your townhouse theatres, mine is in the family room.

What's the status of getting premium finishes on the Submersive? It's the major issue that's holding me back.

What's the status of getting premium finishes on the Submersive? It's the major issue that's holding me back.

I am with you there... I hope a Rosewood veneer becomes an option.

Gelinas,
I think all of us who have lived with attached neighbours can relate with that. That is almost exactly what I do, except my movie selection always changes. Some times it's WOTW, Transformers, Star Wars, U-571, etc...

vishal, HyperM3--

Nice write-ups on your Submersive first impressions. I'm glad to see others with ridiculously overpowered subs for their townhomes such as myself.
Doesn't it put a big smile on your face when you get home and see that both of your neighbors cars are not there?
When I get home and see that, there is no question as to what I'm about to do...WOTW machines emerge at reference or some tracks from Realm of Excursion at very elevated levels.

enjoy your submersives and if you get a chance post up some pics or your townhouse theatres, mine is in the family room.

I'm in the middle of 5 acres. When the WAF gives the nod, it's BASS TIME!

Bill

I am with you there... I hope a Rosewood veneer becomes an option.

I know mark is working on a real wood veneer, untill its completely done and done right, he will say its being worked on. I also dont expect him to work on a rosewood finish..... but it might be available as a special order down the road.

I know mark is working on a real wood veneer, untill its completely done and done right, he will say its being worked on. I also dont expect him to work on a rosewood finish..... but it might be available as a special order down the road.

Pretty much on the money there, although I'll likely have some dark red finish later after I get things rolling. Once I have samples that look like something I want to deliver, I'll post that up on the forum. That could take 3 weeks, could be 3 months. Fortunately for all of us, the economy has some local cabinet shops rather hungry for work. :)

vishal, HyperM3--

Nice write-ups on your Submersive first impressions. I'm glad to see others with ridiculously overpowered subs for their townhomes such as myself.
Doesn't it put a big smile on your face when you get home and see that both of your neighbors cars are not there?
When I get home and see that, there is no question as to what I'm about to do...WOTW machines emerge at reference or some tracks from Realm of Excursion at very elevated levels.

enjoy your submersives and if you get a chance post up some pics or your townhouse theatres, mine is in the family room.

This is what Im working with:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee299/hyperm3/Random/theater/IMG_9271.jpg
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee299/hyperm3/Random/theater/IMG_9269.jpg
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee299/hyperm3/Random/theater/IMG_9273.jpg

The submersive is just massive in the back corner...haha Mark should call it the submassive. After each time I have a "theater session" I hear squeeks and rattles louder than the previous time. The sub definitely helps figure out where the updates on a house will be.

Great looking setup Hyper! I am sure the "Submassive" is surpassing your expectations! ;)

Mr. Seaton any chance i could come over for a listen i am in the chicagoland area ....to be more specific where are you located in Chicago? also your impression of how your sub plays on the bottom 2 octaves and below 10 cycles?


how many am i going to need to be able to play down low... 105db @ 2.5 cycles ?
any distortion figures?
for me this is only for 2 channel music it will be crossed over @ 30 cycles so i am not worried about the upper 2 octaves

can i call you?..

Lawrence

Hi Lawrence,

You aren't likely to get below 5-8Hz in most any room with a SubMersive, and even then you'd have to insure your electronics aren't rolling off at 5-10Hz which is very common. Extension and output below 12-16Hz will depend on the room, placement, and any EQ put to use. Please also note the SubMersive does not have an internal low pass, so you will need and external one for most 2ch systems. This can range from $100-2000 box depending on what you want.

I am at the north edge of the Chicago city limits, but at the moment I do not have a setup open for demo as many things are under construction. The Catalysts are still available for demo in the area, but most current SubMersive owners in the area are not very active on the forums. You are welcome to call the number listed on the temp page of my website or posted in my own forum.

Great looking setup Hyper! I am sure the "Submassive" is surpassing your expectations! ;)

Thanks. Yeah, Ive had several friends over for demos and they have all unanimously stated that Im "Done". I will never need another, nay different, sub ever again. Additional sub could be an option I guess but Im so far from that. Seriously, anyone on the fence about this sub should get their order in and wait for it to be delivered. I sell home theater for a living and Ive never heard a sub do what this one does.

Looks great Hyper. Another person with a nice big comfy room. I hate you all:p.
Here is mine
http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1218725265.jpg

Looks great Hyper. Another person with a nice big comfy room. I hate you all:p.
Here is mine
http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1218725265.jpg

Wheres the submersive hiding?

In the back corner
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/file?id=359043
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/file?id=359044

In the back corner


That seat must be the massaging chair when you are doing your watching. I couldnt imagine sitting that close to the front of one of those firing subs. That being said, you running Focal's in the front? Those are sexy!

That seat must be the massaging chair when you are doing your watching. I couldnt imagine sitting that close to the front of one of those firing subs. That being said, you running Focal's in the front? Those are sexy!

The sub is right next to my main couch as well. Yea, I really like the Focals. They are Electra 1027's for Left and right and an Electra CC901 as a center. They kick butt for 2ch music and sound very good for HT. I normally don't sit in that recliner. Sometimes I do. Just for a change.

Is there a difference in performance between a 1000watt sub with two drivers and a 1000watt sub with one driver?

Is there a difference in performance between a 1000watt sub with two drivers and a 1000watt sub with one driver?

All things being equal, the two-driver sub should be about 3db more efficient and should have lower distortion.

Hello Mark,
I am doing what you suggested and am trying to find a Valodyne sms-1 used to use as room eq and crossover. There are a few around. I read a lot after our conversation and hopefully I will know what I need to know about these kind of subs by the delivery date. These reviews are looking good.

Anyone have any info on the Terraform and Terraform XL? Are they ported subwoofers? How do they compare to the SubMersive? Lastly, how much do they cost?

Mark has the info posted on his website. He wants to keep pricing over there.

Does anyone here use Fathoms as stereo subs with the Submersive left for LFE work? I am considering that as an option.

Anyone have any info on the Terraform and Terraform XL? Are they ported subwoofers? How do they compare to the SubMersive? Lastly, how much do they cost?

There is info over on marks from but I will give you the basics, pricing take a look over at marks forum. or give him an email

Terraform
* High Output, Ultra Low Frequency specialty subwoofer design
* 15" driver (internally mounted)
* 18" passive radiator (HF chamber)
* large enclosure with slot vent tuned to ~12Hz
* DSP Controlled (manufacturer only) 500W ICEpower amplifier

Terraform XL
# High Output, Ultra Low Frequency specialty subwoofer design
# Two(2) 15" drivers (internally mounted)
# Two(2) 18" passive radiators (HF chamber)
# large enclosure with slot vent tuned to ~12Hz
# DSP Controlled (manufacturer only) ICEpower amplifier 2000W peak power (1200W sustained)
# Tentative dimensions: 52" x 22.5" x 28" and 200lbs:eek:

Does anyone here use Fathoms as stereo subs with the Submersive left for LFE work? I am considering that as an option.

I see no reason to just get 2 submersives and use them in stereo, they are VERY VERY musical, I would have no problems using 2 of them for 2ch if I wanted to go that direction.

One very cool thing is you can sit anything you would like on top of them since they dont move. At a GTG a few weeks ago we had the BR and DVD player sitting on to of a submersive and played the WOWorlds Pod scene at what was probably reference or damm close and no problems.

Hi Mark,

Anything on my last e-mail? It's been a good few days. I am anxiously waiting for you to send me the invoice so that I can pay. :p

I would like to get the subwoofer shipped ASAP (hopefully you saved me one). :)

I think I'm going to hold off until the veneered SM's become available and jump on them. I can't wait!

I think I'm going to hold off until the veneered SM's become available and jump on them. I can't wait!

I am sure they will look really sweet:).

Anybody in the Los Angels/OC area have a submerssive or two that gives demos? Would be very interested in hearing this beast.

Once the premium finishes become available, will the price of the SubMersive go up?

You've got mail. ;) Having a problem with PayPal payment. I sent a reply. :(

Once the premium finishes become available, will the price of the SubMersive go up?

I am sure like all things nice, the price will go up, but only on the premium finishes:D

just got back from the crystal method concert at the house of blues in cleveland(3hr drive each way)..... and they could have used a few marks subs

Mark,

Last e-mail replied. :)

Still having a problem with PayPal payment. Details sent via e-mail.

Seems like I'm going to take over this thread with my "sent e-mail" posts. :p

Still having a problem with PayPal payment. Details sent via e-mail.

Seems like I'm going to take over this thread with my "sent e-mail" posts. :p

Got your e-mail Kain, but let's keep the correspondence there (in e-mail) as that's not the purpose of these threads.

Thanks! :)

Still having a problem with PayPal payment. Details sent via e-mail.

Seems like I'm going to take over this thread with my "sent e-mail" posts. :p

Maybe its a sign.... you shouldn't be buying one of those.... :eek:


Hahaha Ok JK.... You will love the Submersive Kain.... No question...

Maybe its a sign.... you shouldn't be buying one of those.... :eek:


Hahaha Ok JK.... You will love the Submersive Kain.... No question... Haha, I thought about that too but then I was like "Nah, it can't be!" :p

Haha, I thought about that too but then I was like "Nah, it can't be!" :p

It isnt, unless your neighbors are computer hackers and they know what your getting:eek:

Does anyone know when the premium finishes will become available? Will satin black be an option?

Does anyone know when the premium finishes will become available? Will satin black be an option?

The most logical person that could answer this question is Mark Seaton himself. Try emailing him or ask this question on his Seaton Sound forum.

As far as finishes go (I'm sure that the Catalysts have the same finish) - the subtlely texture matte black is actually very very nice. I am very impressed with the quality of the finish on the Catalysts.

I just had two friends over for a movie night. All they really cared about was how it sounded. Not how it looked. When I told one of the guys that it had 1000 watts and two 15's he said "Yea, that's what you need". "It's the 15's that make you really feel it."

Warpdrv
Im sold:) I will just get my studio v.5's in black
thanks

hi there,

On a rating of 1-10 how good is the submersive in compared to the PC and PB ultra's in terms of SPL and low end grunt? I listen to alot of old skool, house and garage.

cheers

Graham

Also has anyone got a link to the full list of subs that Seaton sell with full specs please. Their website is under construction.

cheers

Graham

Also has anyone got a link to the full list of subs that Seaton sell with full specs please. Their website is under construction.

cheers

Graham

The best place for info is his forum http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3364736

If you have more questions email mark or post them up over there.

hi there,

on a rating of 1-10 how good is the submersive in compared to the pc and pb ultra's in terms of spl and low end grunt? I listen to alot of old skool, house and garage.

Cheers

graham

11

11, WoW! Are these better than the SVS top end subs then?

cheers

11, WoW! Are these better than the SVS top end subs then?

cheers

I know ( since I helped seaton move/install them) a ART replaced 4 SVS's with 4 submersives:eek:

lets just say, it wasnt a subtle change either

I actually would say a 14 but that is me:D

Well my Seaton Sub should be done any day now. I am in the delivery week that Mark gave me. Its the last piece in my system and I hope a significant one. Sounds like it will be. I have never heard subs like this so I have nothing to go on except my imagination. Which runs wild at times.

Can someone give me a rough idea of Max SPL over the 10-200Hz range? I can't find that on the Seaton forums.

I just had two friends over for a movie night. All they really cared about was how it sounded. Not how it looked. When I told one of the guys that it had 1000 watts and two 15's he said "Yea, that's what you need". "It's the 15's that make you really feel it."

With all due respect, the SVS PB-12 Plus/2 could make you feel plenty. I know of several people who felt physically uncomfortable with just one Plus/2 in use at high levels.

As you know, Art Sonneborne used 4 Plus/2's before he upgraded to his 4 submersives.

With all due respect, the SVS PB-12 Plus/2 could make you feel plenty. I know of several people who felt physically uncomfortable with just one Plus/2in use at high levels.

As you know, Art Sonneborne used 4 Plus/2's before he upgraded to his 4 submersives.

And then there are those who would say, yeah, those 18 inch drivers really get the job done...

and then there are those who would say, yeah, those 18 inch drivers really get the job done...
Ya if it wasnt for weight and size I am sure those dual 18 inch subs do get the job done. If I had the room I would of went for those. Returned phone calls and emails would be nice also.

Can someone give me a rough idea of Max SPL over the 10-200Hz range? I can't find that on the Seaton forums. Here is a graph of the SubMersive in someone's room (can't find how big) but it gives you the estimate of the general SPL over 8-80Hz.

http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/SubMersive-Kevin-output.jpg

Pretty darn impressive I must say. :eek:

Also Mr. Seaton gave me a verbal agreement that if I paid for shipping both ways and the product is returned in the same condition as received he would give me a 30 day trial period with a money back guarantee. So I decided to go ahead and try it out. Its something a potential purchaser should ask.

Sorry guys, but I am critical of hype. This could be the greatest thing since(fill in the blank). I am hoping it is. I really am. But ask questions like Kain did for sure.

But when I receive this and if I say that I am going into electronic "orgasm" believe me I am being truthfull. I will let you all know.

Then that will make me part of the hype too:D
But also it means I feel I got my moneys worth . Not a bad place to be.

Can someone give me a rough idea of Max SPL over the 10-200Hz range? I can't find that on the Seaton forums.

Under what conditions? At 1m ground plane the answer would range from 95-125dB.

Well my Seaton Sub should be done any day now. I am in the delivery week that Mark gave me. Its the last piece in my system and I hope a significant one. Sounds like it will be. I have never heard subs like this so I have nothing to go on except my imagination. Which runs wild at times.

Indeed, your subwoofer is set to head out mid week. I believe if you look back at my posts I've always been careful to insure expectations are reasonable, as one man's "oh my" is another's "that's gettin' there!" :rolleyes: I have yet to build or test a subwoofer which you can't find the limits of. It's just a question of how much you annoy the neighbors in the process. :D

Indeed, your subwoofer is set to head out mid week. I believe if you look back at my posts I've always been careful to insure expectations are reasonable, as one man's "oh my" is another's "that's gettin' there!" :rolleyes: I have yet to build or test a subwoofer which you can't find the limits of. It's just a question of how much you annoy the neighbors in the process. :D
Thanks Mark. I kinda know what to expect.(barring my wild imagination) I am sure 4 of these like Arts would shake the walls down. But I am mainly a tube music guy and wont listen at that level.
Mark I am upgrading from a 15 year old Infinity 150 watt sub that I have had since it was new. It wont take a lot to make me happy. Rod

Also when I said "hype" I meant customers. I do not know them. You have been correct in how you post. I will gladly become one of the customers happily promoting your subs when the time comes. Even a calibrator in Sacramento, Ca. that will be calibrating my projector has heard of you and said your a pro at this. Rod

When I said "pro" the exact words was "one of the best there is " I will give praise when it is due. Rod

By the way the calibrater in Sacramento said he has a private plane and since I live in a small town that is a famous fly in location for private pilots he would just fly here for the same as driving here since its such a long drive to get here. Very reasonable for what I am getting. So there is someone for Northern California if you have a airport. Interesting, Yes?

Roddey
Will you be using the Submersive for audio or just movies? If audio what are your main speakers?

Roddey
Will you be using the Submersive for audio or just movies? If audio what are your main speakers?
Both. But my main concern was music. Hence a sealed sub. The speakers I have for front left and right is a modified Klipsch la Scala. I am using the horn loaded bass bins with altec horns and drivers.
But from what I understand some people dont like horns. A personal choice for sure. Be aware la Scala has a distortion at higher volumes because of the design of the horns. So people do like I did a lot and use altec for the mids and highs.

I just hooked up a Denon 3808ci to them also. On my new remote I hit "up" volume when I should of hit "down" in the dark. It took me awhile fumbling in the dark to find the down volume button. It caused pain in my ears for awhile. Volume is not an issue :eek:

Here is a graph of the SubMersive in someone's room (can't find how big) but it gives you the estimate of the general SPL over 8-80Hz.

http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/SubMersive-Kevin-output.jpg

Pretty darn impressive I must say. :eek:

That would be my theater:eek: its kind of an odd ball shape, but right at about 2300ft^3 The room is closed off to the rest of the house, but the door flaps like a humming bird when you crank it up:p

I am getting ready to buy the xlr cables. Can someone tell me what cable end I need to connect to the submersive sub. Male or female?

I am getting ready to buy the xlr cables. Can someone tell me what cable end I need to connect to the submersive sub. Male or female?

Honestly, you can just get a subwoofer rca cable. The Submersive comes with an XLR cable which connects to the rca.

Honestly, you can just get a subwoofer rca cable. The Submersive comes with an XLR cable which connects to the rca.
Mark suggested that since I am getting an Valodyne sms-1 with xlr out I use that. Also I am going to have to switch wires when going between home theatre and tube amps,preamps so he said xlr would be better because rca wear out if you plug and unplug them on a regular basis. So I will be using xlr adapters on the amp side also. I have looked for a photo of the xlr input plug on the sub but cant find one. Do I need a female end on the xlr connector that plugs into the sub? That is how the valodyne is set up. It has a male output plug. So if I am right I would need a 75 foot female to female xlr cord. Is this correct? Thanks, Rod

Has anyone used one of these or what do you guys think of these cords? Do they look like what I need ? I have never used xlr before. http://www.onevisitmedia.com/cablesxlrftoxlrf.html

http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=xlr&x=0&y=0

I have purchased from monoprice a few times and have always been pleased.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=xlr&x=0&y=0

I have purchased from monoprice a few times and have always been pleased.
Thanks for the tip. I will use them.
Do I need a female connector on the cord for the sub side? I hate to keep asking but??????

That would be my theater:eek: its kind of an odd ball shape, but right at about 2300ft^3 The room is closed off to the rest of the house, but the door flaps like a humming bird when you crank it up:p

Yea. When I saw that my mouth just about hit the floor as well. We did not do any MAX SPL in my room. I really don't think that would have been a good idea:eek:.

Has anyone used one of these or what do you guys think of these cords? Do they look like what I need ? I have never used xlr before. http://www.onevisitmedia.com/cablesxlrftoxlrf.html

http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=xlr&x=0&y=0

I have purchased from monoprice a few times and have always been pleased.

For the price difference I use and recommend the Premium Canare TecNec Cables from Markertek (http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Connectors-Adapters/Audio-Cables/XLR-to-XLR-Cables/TecNec-Cables-Connectors/SC100XXJ.xhtml) which are both durable, well made, and very flexible. You can even choose different colors to help with cable ID, or just go with black.

If you are hiding wires or using long wires you won't want to have to re-terminate or buy new in a system that has RCA output only, I often recommend running XLR-XLR the full length and adding a 1.5' long, wired XLR-RCA adapter (http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Connectors-Adapters/Audio-Cables/RCA-to-XLR-Cables/TecNec-Cables-Connectors/SC100XR.xhtml) at the rack. If you later upgrade to a pre-amp or EQ that has XLR outputs, just remove the $14 adapter and plug in. This also generally provides less opportunity for hum/buzz system issues when running longer RCA-XLR connections.

I do provide a 3' XLR Male - RCA Female adapter with the SubMersive which works well, and allows immediate drop in for any existing RCA cables, particularly if they are already run in the wall.

Note that common usage of XLR connectors is intended to make some sense... male is signal output and female is signal input. The outputs from a pre-amp are male (you see 3 metal pins inside the housing), with the input to the SubMersive or any amplifier being female (holes for the 3 pins inside the plastic filled tip).

By the way the calibrater in Sacramento said he has a private plane and since I live in a small town that is a famous fly in location for private pilots he would just fly here for the same as driving here since its such a long drive to get here. Very reasonable for what I am getting. So there is someone for Northern California if you have a airport. Interesting, Yes?

Now there's some unique service. :cool:

FYI, I will be in the N. Cal region for a meet planned for July 11th in the Bay Area. Should be a lot of fun.

Honestly, you can just get a subwoofer rca cable. The Submersive comes with an XLR cable which connects to the rca.


XLR? While ive heard the name before I do not know what it is. Can someone tell me about the XLR ? Receivers with XLRs ?

thanks

XLR? While ive heard the name before I do not know what it is. Can someone tell me about the XLR ? Receivers with XLRs ?

thanks

These are the standard connection used for balanced audio connections in both consumer and pro audio. You will often find the cables listed as "microphone cables." For pictures click on any of the links in my post above.

Under what conditions? At 1m ground plane the answer would range from 95-125dB.

Is that at maximum amp capacity? The chart that was posted only goes upto 80Hz, would the SPL output drop further after 80 Hz?

I'm not sure what is meant by ground plane, but I was referring to 1m measurement.

Is that at maximum amp capacity? The chart that was posted only goes upto 80Hz, would the SPL output drop further after 80 Hz?

I'm not sure what is meant by ground plane, but I was referring to 1m measurement.

That measurment was in my room, if I remember corectly, it doesnt roll off up top for quite a bit, but mark will have to answer that.

also my room is pretty crazy shaped, and has issues due to that.

XLR? While ive heard the name before I do not know what it is. Can someone tell me about the XLR ? Receivers with XLRs ?

thanks


Usually you have to step up to dedicated Pre-Amps to get XLR's onboard, not too many receivers that have them, in fact I can't think of any... :o

Hence Mark showing the RCA to XLR adapter to accommodate the needs of the many...

Is that at maximum amp capacity? The chart that was posted only goes upto 80Hz, would the SPL output drop further after 80 Hz?

I'm not sure what is meant by ground plane, but I was referring to 1m measurement.

That's outdoors on the ground. You can see the outdoor frequency response I posted on my forum which shows the SubMersive's extension to ~200Hz. I haven't really concerned myself with maximum output above 100-120Hz, but it should do 120dB @1m or more. The Terraform XL will do 120-124dB in the upper octave with much greater output down to 10-12Hz... but is ~3x the size and 75% greater cost.

For the price difference I use and recommend the Premium Canare TecNec Cables from Markertek (http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Connectors-Adapters/Audio-Cables/XLR-to-XLR-Cables/TecNec-Cables-Connectors/SC100XXJ.xhtml) which are both durable, well made, and very flexible. You can even choose different colors to help with cable ID, or just go with black.

If you are hiding wires or using long wires you won't want to have to re-terminate or buy new in a system that has RCA output only, I often recommend running XLR-XLR the full length and adding a 1.5' long, wired XLR-RCA adapter (http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Connectors-Adapters/Audio-Cables/RCA-to-XLR-Cables/TecNec-Cables-Connectors/SC100XR.xhtml) at the rack. If you later upgrade to a pre-amp or EQ that has XLR outputs, just remove the $14 adapter and plug in. This also generally provides less opportunity for hum/buzz system issues when running longer RCA-XLR connections.

I do provide a 3' XLR Male - RCA Female adapter with the SubMersive which works well, and allows immediate drop in for any existing RCA cables, particularly if they are already run in the wall.

Note that common usage of XLR connectors is intended to make some sense... male is signal output and female is signal input. The outputs from a pre-amp are male (you see 3 metal pins inside the housing), with the input to the SubMersive or any amplifier being female (holes for the 3 pins inside the plastic filled tip).
Thanks Mark,
I do have a long run for cable Minimum 50 up to 80 feet depending on were the sub goes. I got the 100 foot cable just in case. The manual on the SMS-1 sub controller says that unbalanced in and balanced out works O.K.

That's outdoors on the ground. You can see the outdoor frequency response I posted on my forum which shows the SubMersive's extension to ~200Hz. I haven't really concerned myself with maximum output above 100-120Hz, but it should do 120dB @1m or more. The Terraform XL will do 120-124dB in the upper octave with much greater output down to 10-12Hz... but is ~3x the size and 75% greater cost.

Quit! Your making me drool again!! :D

That's outdoors on the ground. You can see the outdoor frequency response I posted on my forum which shows the SubMersive's extension to ~200Hz. I haven't really concerned myself with maximum output above 100-120Hz, but it should do 120dB @1m or more. The Terraform XL will do 120-124dB in the upper octave with much greater output down to 10-12Hz... but is ~3x the size and 75% greater cost.

Quit! Your making me drool again!! :D


I've told him time and time again....Mark, you are a pusher!

He says that he's only an "enabler." Pffft! :D

Is anyone in the NY, NJ, CT tristate area planning a get together? I would love to hear/feel a NIN blu ray concert with one of these beasts. I'm a little hesitant to buy this or any ID sub without listening to it first. I was leaning toward a SVS PB-13 then I stumbled across the SubMersive and have a feeling that this will be a better performer all around.

Is anyone in the NY, NJ, CT tristate area planning a get together? I would love to hear/feel a NIN blu ray concert with one of these beasts. I'm a little hesitant to buy this or any ID sub without listening to it first. I was leaning toward a SVS PB-13 then I stumbled across the SubMersive and have a feeling that this will be a better performer all around.

Dunno where you are but Im always willing to let people bring over their own demo material and abuse my system.

Dunno where you are but Im always willing to let people bring over their own demo material and abuse my system.

Sweet! I'll be over tomorrow afternoon :D

http://www.onsale2go.com/images/products/movie-collection-boxset/barbie-12-dvd.jpg

Sorry, Blurays only. :p

I’ve been on the verge of buying 1 or 2 ported subs (SVS PB-13s, AV123 MFW-15, Epik Phoenix) for awhile for my +7500ft^3 room (90% HT). As I’ve read this and other forums, the Submersive emerged to me as the true enthusiast’s subwoofer. It is often compared favorably to the top competitors. Some posters have even suggested it is equal to 2 SVS PB-13 Ultras. Never once have I seen a review that suggests that the SVS PB-13 Ultra is even comparable (except for around the tuning frequency). As a result, I have been on the verge of purchasing a Submersive (or two) for weeks now.

However, something keeps gnawing at me as I prepare to spend $2-4K on a sealed sub. How come the Submersive never showed up on Craigsub? Why? It was suggested that Seaton didn’t want the incremental demand an outstanding Craigsub rating would create, but I find that a bit hard to believe.
Craigsub has been the best tool for me to make any sense of all the choices. And based on what I’ve read, nearly everyone values and respects the Craigsub findings. The “QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS OF “CRAIGSUB” HT SUBWOOFER RATINGS” http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=998318 further suggests the validity of the ratings.

The Submersive was released well before Craigsub retired from ranking subwoofers. How could it be the most celebrated subwoofer ranking system failed to rank the celebrated subwoofer?

I’ve also been surprised that no one has used the “quantitative analysis” to fill in the gap and predict the Submersive HT score. Well here it is:
HT = 22.7 + 1.02 DRV_DIAM + 1.24 BOX_VOL + 0.00476 PWR + 2.83 VNT + 7.09 HI_XMAX

HT = 56.3 = 22.7 + 1.02 * 15 + 1.24 * 5.2 + 0.00476 * 1000 + 2.83 * 0 + 7.09 * 1

HT = 56 is respectable, but less than the SVS PB-13 Ultra. Curiously, it is equal to a pair of AV123 MFW-15s (which were also designed by Seaton).

So now I’m confused:

- The antidotal reviews suggest I should invest in a Submersive. It digs the deepest, great in mid-base range, and exposes nuance that no other subwoofer can.

- The “Quantitative Analysis” regression formula (HT=56) suggest the Submersive is right up there with the best on the Craigsub ranking, but below the SVS Ultra. This suggests the cheaper SVS Ultra (or other EPIK offerings) are a much better value for my HT needs. This assumes the regression formula is predictive (it’s R-Sq = 95.7% suggests it is very accurate)

I feel like it is heresy to question the Submersive, but I’m tortured by this decision.

I’ve been on the verge of buying 1 or 2 ported subs (SVS PB-13s, AV123 MFW-15, Epik Phoenix) for awhile for my +7500ft^3 room (90% HT). As I’ve read this and other forums, the Submersive emerged to me as the true enthusiast’s subwoofer. It is often compared favorably to the top competitors. Some posters have even suggested it is equal to 2 SVS PB-13 Ultras. Never once have I seen a review that suggests that the SVS PB-13 Ultra is even comparable (except for around the tuning frequency). As a result, I have been on the verge of purchasing a Submersive (or two) for weeks now.

However, something keeps gnawing at me as I prepare to spend $2-4K on a sealed sub. How come the Submersive never showed up on Craigsub? Why? It was suggested that Seaton didn’t want the incremental demand an outstanding Craigsub rating would create, but I find that a bit hard to believe.
Craigsub has been the best tool for me to make any sense of all the choices. And based on what I’ve read, nearly everyone values and respects the Craigsub findings. The “QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS OF “CRAIGSUB” HT SUBWOOFER RATINGS” http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=998318 further suggests the validity of the ratings.

The Submersive was released well before Craigsub retired from ranking subwoofers. How could it be the most celebrated subwoofer ranking system failed to rank the celebrated subwoofer?

I’ve also been surprised that no one has used the “quantitative analysis” to fill in the gap and predict the Submersive HT score. Well here it is:
HT = 22.7 + 1.02 DRV_DIAM + 1.24 BOX_VOL + 0.00476 PWR + 2.83 VNT + 7.09 HI_XMAX

HT = 56.3 = 22.7 + 1.02 * 15 + 1.24 * 5.2 + 0.00476 * 1000 + 2.83 * 0 + 7.09 * 1

HT = 56 is respectable, but less than the SVS PB-13 Ultra. Curiously, it is equal to a pair of AV123 MFW-15s (which were also designed by Seaton).

So now I’m confused:

- The antidotal reviews suggest I should invest in a Submersive. It digs the deepest, great in mid-base range, and exposes nuance that no other subwoofer can.

- The “Quantitative Analysis” regression formula (HT=56) suggest the Submersive is right up there with the best on the Craigsub ranking, but below the SVS Ultra. This suggests the cheaper SVS Ultra (or other EPIK offerings) are a much better value for my HT needs. This assumes the regression formula is predictive (it’s R-Sq = 95.7% suggests it is very accurate)

I feel like it is heresy to question the Submersive, but I’m tortured by this decision.


what ever happened to go old measuring?

That regression formula is only suited to predict things about the subs that were already measured. It is not an accurate indicator of performance for subs that were not tested (IMO). The best thing you can do is try to hear one of the submersives in person. You will not find a bad review of the submersive, but you will also not find that many reviews (at least as compared to the other popular offerings out there). I think Mark was being genuine when he said that he didn't want or need the extra business a testing like Craigs would have offered. Mark has been very good about only taking orders that he can fill in a reasonable timeframe. Also, he is trying to get new products to market (i.e., Terraform, Sparks). Being a Submersive owner, I can say I doubt you will be dissapointed; but there is certainly more anecdotal data on something like the pb-13.

SVS PC Ultra or Submersive?

Which goes louder and which goes deeper.

Also what sub is best with music.

cheers

Graham

That's outdoors on the ground. You can see the outdoor frequency response I posted on my forum which shows the SubMersive's extension to ~200Hz. I haven't really concerned myself with maximum output above 100-120Hz, but it should do 120dB @1m or more. The Terraform XL will do 120-124dB in the upper octave with much greater output down to 10-12Hz... but is ~3x the size and 75% greater cost.

Thanks!

I’ve been on the verge of buying 1 or 2 ported subs (SVS PB-13s, AV123 MFW-15, Epik Phoenix) for awhile for my +7500ft^3 room (90% HT). As I’ve read this and other forums, the Submersive emerged to me as the true enthusiast’s subwoofer. It is often compared favorably to the top competitors. Some posters have even suggested it is equal to 2 SVS PB-13 Ultras. Never once have I seen a review that suggests that the SVS PB-13 Ultra is even comparable (except for around the tuning frequency). As a result, I have been on the verge of purchasing a Submersive (or two) for weeks now.

However, something keeps gnawing at me as I prepare to spend $2-4K on a sealed sub. How come the Submersive never showed up on Craigsub? Why? It was suggested that Seaton didn’t want the incremental demand an outstanding Craigsub rating would create, but I find that a bit hard to believe.
Craigsub has been the best tool for me to make any sense of all the choices. And based on what I’ve read, nearly everyone values and respects the Craigsub findings. The “QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS OF “CRAIGSUB” HT SUBWOOFER RATINGS” http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=998318 further suggests the validity of the ratings.

The Submersive was released well before Craigsub retired from ranking subwoofers. How could it be the most celebrated subwoofer ranking system failed to rank the celebrated subwoofer?

I’ve also been surprised that no one has used the “quantitative analysis” to fill in the gap and predict the Submersive HT score. Well here it is:
HT = 22.7 + 1.02 DRV_DIAM + 1.24 BOX_VOL + 0.00476 PWR + 2.83 VNT + 7.09 HI_XMAX

HT = 56.3 = 22.7 + 1.02 * 15 + 1.24 * 5.2 + 0.00476 * 1000 + 2.83 * 0 + 7.09 * 1

HT = 56 is respectable, but less than the SVS PB-13 Ultra. Curiously, it is equal to a pair of AV123 MFW-15s (which were also designed by Seaton).

So now I’m confused:

- The antidotal reviews suggest I should invest in a Submersive. It digs the deepest, great in mid-base range, and exposes nuance that no other subwoofer can.

- The “Quantitative Analysis” regression formula (HT=56) suggest the Submersive is right up there with the best on the Craigsub ranking, but below the SVS Ultra. This suggests the cheaper SVS Ultra (or other EPIK offerings) are a much better value for my HT needs. This assumes the regression formula is predictive (it’s R-Sq = 95.7% suggests it is very accurate)

I feel like it is heresy to question the Submersive, but I’m tortured by this decision.

Craig bought the subs he choose to review. There are many other subs that craig never got around to reviewing... We should be thankful that he reviewed as many subs as he did on his time and his $$$.

Having owned a pair of MFW-15's and had them in the same room and the same position as the submersive there is not much of a comparison. read my comments here and on the seaton sound forum for more info. The submersive easily outperforms a pair of MFW-15's.....

I haven't been following the regression formula thread but it's worth noting that the Submersive has two 15 inch drivers, surface area is much closer to a 21 inch driver, that gives us a score of over 62 on HT.

I haven't been following the regression formula thread but it's worth noting that the Submersive has two 15 inch drivers, surface area is much closer to a 21 inch driver, that gives us a score of over 62 on HT.
score of 62?

I haven't been following the regression formula thread but it's worth noting that the Submersive has two 15 inch drivers, surface area is much closer to a 21 inch driver, that gives us a score of over 62 on HT.

Sounds right to me, with two 15 inch drivers being the equivalent of a 21.2132 inch driver in surface area, the HT score should be 6.34 points higher, or 62.6.

I don't know if this is how multiple drivers are treated, however. :confused:

Sounds right to me, with two 15 inch drivers being the equivalent of a 21.2132 inch driver in surface area, the HT score should be 6.34 points higher, or 62.6.

I don't know if this is how multiple drivers are treated, however. :confused:whats the HT score?

whats the HT score?

This should help: http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11

I think I can fit another driver or two in the box... That just makes it better, right!?! :rolleyes:

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1974_eating_popcorn.gif

I think I can fit another driver or two in the box... That just makes it better, right!?! :rolleyes:

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1974_eating_popcorn.gif

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_119&products_id=607

Yes--this one rates a 186 in HT

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_119&products_id=607

Yes--this one rates a 186 in HT

Yea sure......

you can measure till you fill a computer with data, it still doesnt show how good it sounds!!!!! now will the data back up what you think your hearing, yes.

I think I can fit another driver or two in the box... That just makes it better, right!?! :rolleyes:

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1974_eating_popcorn.gif

i'm just here for the gangbang

http://i41.tinypic.com/2ymdmhf.gif

I think I can fit another driver or two in the box... That just makes it better, right!?! :rolleyes:

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1974_eating_popcorn.gif

Only if you place them in the two available sides and not the top, the top's where I show off my empty beer cases and hence elimination of such would have a significant negative impact on the overall score.

More is as more does right?:p. Mark, More More More. I want it all:eek:.
Oh wait, I have it all already. Silly me:o.

However, something keeps gnawing at me as I prepare to spend $2-4K on a sealed sub. How come the Submersive never showed up on Craigsub? Why? It was suggested that Seaton didn’t want the incremental demand an outstanding Craigsub rating would create, but I find that a bit hard to believe.


Craig's review of the MFW-15 created a demand surge that took AV123 around 6 months to work through. They were a decent sized company with multiple factories. Mark is a one man company, and although he has suppliers, he does the assembly testing and shipping himself, at least he used to. SubMersives have been selling at a rate Mark can keep up with, but with occasional delays. More demand before he was ready to deliver in quantity could have gotten real ugly.

Sounds right to me, with two 15 inch drivers being the equivalent of a 21.2132 inch driver in surface area, the HT score should be 6.34 points higher, or 62.6.

I don't know if this is how multiple drivers are treated, however. :confused:


This is a great point. I appreciate the discussion. :D

A 62.6 would put the Submersive up there with the #1 rated ED A7-900 (which is a powerful Sub, unfortunately you will need to build an addition onto your freaking house for that bad boy). However, it is incorrect to use the overall surface area of the two drivers

The analysis includes teh # of drivers in a separate variable. The driver size in the equation is the diameter of one woofer, regardless if you have 1 or 2 drivers. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=998318

The interesting part of the analysis is that "number of drivers" isn't a statistically relevant variable, and is therefore excluded from the equation. Despite the exclusion of this variable, the equation accurately calculates the score of several duel-driver subwoofers (Elemental Designs A7-900, AV123 MFW-15 Duals, Def Tech Trinity, Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver DYI).

This seems counterintuitive.:confused: Logic would dictate that more drivers will improve performance (or so purchasers of the Dodecasub would hope). However, it isn’t clear that multiple drivers is important relevant to other factors (Driver diameter, and most importantly, enclosure volume).

But maybe it is logical. Is there a limit on how much you can compress air in a sub? Maybe that limit is reached with the first driver, so the second doesn’t add much. I’ve always been amazed at the meager increase you get from “duel” subwoofers. By adding the second sub, maybe all you get is the increased enclosure volume. Maybe the second driver isn’t worth much.

In looking through the 6764 postings on the Craigsub string (#2 most popular thread of all time on this forum, and if it hadn’t been shut down last year, it would be #1 by long shot), the most popular post was “when are you reviewing the Submersive?” m-fine416 even offered to drive his Submersive to Craigsub (and another guy offered to ride along). Craigsub isn’t just a random rating system, it is the defining concept of this forum (which appears to me to be the definitive forum on Subwoofers).
So I still am perplexed, what does this 56 HT rating of the Submersive mean? Is the Craigsub rating flawed? Is the regression equation flawed? Or are the PB-13, Castle (which is think is now the Phoenix), Conquest and A7-900 just better Home Theater subwoofers?

Craig's review of the MFW-15 created a demand surge that took AV123 around 6 months to work through. They were a decent sized company with multiple factories. Mark is a one man company, and although he has suppliers, he does the assembly testing and shipping himself, at least he used to. SubMersives have been selling at a rate Mark can keep up with, but with occasional delays. More demand before he was ready to deliver in quantity could have gotten real ugly.[/QUOTE]


m-fine416, (fyi, i had not seen your reploy at the time i posted my last).

If volume is a concern, they could increase the price. If the product is that good, it seems reasonable and fair to charge a fair price that balances supply and demand. Mark could roll the extra profits back into R&D (in order to provide customers an even better product) or invest in more capacity (so he could eventually serve more customers).

They could also post the wait time. That would allow them to keep the same price while fairly setting expectaions on the wait. That would really limit the sales to only those who reallly apprecated the product.

I just don't think it is fair to the other products on the market to ignore our best estimate of the Submersives craigsub HT rating.

I would say the equation is flawed. I have not hear the submersive myself, but I've read way too much from folks I respect to think anything other than the submersive is superior on every point, save the finish.

Or are the PB-13, Castle (which is think is now the Phoenix), Conquest and A7-900 just better Home Theater subwoofers?

Honestly, I think you would be better off going for one of the speakers listed that you have empirical data for and passing on the SubMersive. Since the SubMersive wasn't tested and won't be you will have rely on the regression formula where the SubMersive falls far short of the leaders. The only way for you to really know will be to test them side by side in your listening environment but that isn't usually an option for subs unless you are willing to incur the hassle and shipping costs for 120-150lb + boxes.

If you buy a SubMersive you will always have that nagging doubt in the back of your mind that you made the wrong choice and would have good chance of developing buyer's remorse. Since the others have been tested and the numerical results are known to meet your requirements I think they would be a far safer choice for you.

That would be my theater:eek: its kind of an odd ball shape, but right at about 2300ft^3 The room is closed off to the rest of the house, but the door flaps like a humming bird when you crank it up:p At what distance where those measurements taken?

It says something when ppl have owned and moved on from what I consider to be some heavy hitters like the Tower, Conquest and Def Tech Trinity, to settle down and be satisfied with the Submersive. Although the first two are disadvantaged against dual 15".

btw, any submersive owners in the South Florida (Broward County) area? I'd like to hear this sub. Joined the official website, but somehow I am unable to post.

It says something when ppl have owned and moved on from what I consider to be some heavy hitters like the Tower, Conquest and Def Tech Trinity, to settle down and be satisfied with the Submersive. dont forget some switch from SVS.

It says something when ppl have owned and moved on from what I consider to be some heavy hitters like the Tower, Conquest and Def Tech Trinity, to settle down and be satisfied with the Submersive. Although the first two are disadvantaged against dual 15".

btw, any submersive owners in the South Florida (Broward County) area? I'd like to hear this sub. Joined the official website, but somehow I am unable to post. I think you need to open your e-mail and click on a link to confirm the account before you can post on the forum.

dont forget some switch from SVS.

Yup, especially rossandwendy who went from two PB13-Ultras to one SubMersive.

I think it means that there is a LOT more to a sub than driver size, excursion, wattage, etc.

THAT is something a lot of sub makers and the equation simply does not get.

It says something when ppl have owned and moved on from what I consider to be some heavy hitters like the Tower, Conquest and Def Tech Trinity, to settle down and be satisfied with the Submersive. Although the first two are disadvantaged against dual 15".

btw, any submersive owners in the South Florida (Broward County) area? I'd like to hear this sub. Joined the official website, but somehow I am unable to post.

Thanks TnT',

You should be good to go now on the forum. Sometimes spam filters kill confirmation e-mails or other oddities happen. I just cleared a few accounts/handles I recognized which were awaiting e-mail confirmation.

I think you need to open your e-mail and click on a link to confirm the account before you can post on the forum.



Yup, especially rossandwendy who went from two PB13-Ultras to one SubMersive.

Which still doesn't make any sense. I have an exceptionally high regard for Ross, but I have to say that I still think something was wrong with his setup. He posted that a single submersive would go deeper and louder than dual Ultra 13s. But even Mark said that a Ultra 13 (in context he was talking about a single) would go louder at the tuning frequency which would be 15hz, than his submersive. So how can two ultras not even be louder???? Ross used the same procedure in setting up the two subs, but you have to remember that Ross also used the Denon 3808 with Audyssey which some are having problems with. I wouldn't be surprised that the differences Ross experienced had more to do with Audyssey mucking up the signal than anything else.

Which still doesn't make any sense. I have an exceptionally high regard for Ross, but I have to say that I still think something was wrong with his setup. He posted that a single submersive would go deeper and louder than dual Ultra 13s. But even Mark said that a Ultra 13 (in context he was talking about a single) would go louder at the tuning frequency which would be 15hz, than his submersive. So how can two ultras not even be louder???? Ross used the same procedure in setting up the two subs, but you have to remember that Ross also used the Denon 3808 with Audyssey which some are having problems with. I wouldn't be surprised that the differences Ross experienced had more to do with Audyssey mucking up the signal than anything else.

this posts should shed some light

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16380544&postcount=166

Which still doesn't make any sense. I have an exceptionally high regard for Ross, but I have to say that I still think something was wrong with his setup. He posted that a single submersive would go deeper and louder than dual Ultra 13s. But even Mark said that a Ultra 13 (in context he was talking about a single) would go louder at the tuning frequency which would be 15hz, than his submersive. So how can two ultras not even be louder???? Ross used the same procedure in setting up the two subs, but you have to remember that Ross also used the Denon 3808 with Audyssey which some are having problems with. I wouldn't be surprised that the differences Ross experienced had more to do with Audyssey mucking up the signal than anything else. Have a look at these two charts/graphs:

The following chart was made at a 2 meter distance.

http://personal.inet.fi/private/zipman/shootout5/cea-2010_rms_2m_round_4_and_5_20-80.png

And this is the SubMersive graph of the response at listening position (though I am not sure how far the listening position was from the SubMersive and there appears to be a room suck-out around 15Hz).

http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/SubMersive-Kevin-output.jpg

If you were to add another PB13-Ultra, you would add approximately 6 dB to the numbers of a single PB13-Ultra.

However, this is probably not a fair comparison as the PB13-Ultra was taken readings at 2 meters while the SubMersive was taken at listening position.

Based on these two charts/graphs, above 20Hz (and down real low) a single SubMersive matches or exceeds the output of two PB13-Ultras. Once again, this might not be a fair comparison for the SubMersive if the measuring distance was greater for the SubMersive.

Based on these two charts/graphs, above 20Hz (and down real low) a single SubMersive matches or exceeds the output of two PB13-Ultras. Once again, this might not be a fair comparison for the SubMersive if the measuring distance was greater for the SubMersive.
what would the numbers look like with the submersive at 2 meters?

If you were to add another PB13-Ultra, you would add approximately 6 dB to the numbers of a single PB13-Ultra.

However, this is probably not a fair comparison as the PB13-Ultra was taken readings at 2 meters while the SubMersive was taken at listening position.

Based on these two charts/graphs, above 20Hz a single SubMersive matches or exceeds the output of two PB13-Ultras. Once again, this might not be a fair comparison for the SubMersive if the measuring distance was greater for the SubMersive.

Hi Kain,

These are not comparative conditions or numbers and the extrapolation is a big reach. Check the link otk posted and my comments in the same thread for more useful insight as to Ross's comparison.

what would the numbers look like with the submersive at 2 meters? I don't know what distance the SubMersive graph was made on so I can't say. I might as well have been 2 meters but I can't guess.

These are totally non-comparable since Ilkka's test were performed outdoors with no boundaries while the Submersive measurements were indoors with room gain. Completely different conditions.

These are totally non-comparable since Ilkka's test were performed outdoors with no boundaries while the Submersive measurements were indoors with room gain. Completely different conditions.

Not to mention these were just an example from an early installation of what we were seeing in a room. There are a handful of others scattered around my forum or this thread as well. The numbers will vary by about 10dB down low between rooms.

Darn it, I knew I was missing something. :p

i don't really like outdoor GP measurements because they give an unfair advantage to subs like conquest, ultra and others that have the driver and the port on the front of the sub with the port down near the ground firing directly into the mic

also, measuring outdoors doesn't show what room loading and a little EQ can do with a sealed sub

what really counts is what's hitting your ears in your room at the listening position

another point is the louder sub isn't always the better sounding sub unless all you do it sit out on your lawn and listen to sine waves all day

What other kind of standard measuring conditions would you propose?

i don't really like outdoor GP measurements because they give an unfair advantage to subs like conquest, ultra and others that have the driver and the port on the front of the sub with the port down near the ground firing directly into the mic

also, measuring outdoors doesn't show what room loading and a little EQ can do with a sealed sub

what really counts is what's hitting your ears in your room at the listening position

another point is the louder sub isn't always the better sounding sub unless all you do it sit out on your lawn and listen to sine waves all day

What other kind of standard measuring conditions would you propose?

Outdoor ground plane measurements are quite useful and at a 2m distance it gives a decent common ground if the ports and drivers are similar distance to the mic. Of course as the subwoofer gets larger things get less clear and you need to test the test more thoroughly.

Outdoor measurements are hugely important in the development of any subwoofer IMO. The problem lies in the interpretation and correlation to our own rooms. The tendency is to compare subwoofers in the isolation of the test environment rather than how the common test environment relates to our listening environment. The other huge complication is that once you move past a passive subwoofer with no electronic EQ or filtering, you can expect that the common barrage of measurements may only show hints of certain important behavior and may completely miss other details. All scientific work (think back to those HS/college lab reports) includes observation and explanation of what aspect of the experiment or test did and did not work. I think you can ask most any designer and he'll confirm that he's constructed a device or two which measured well in a handful of common metrics, yet sounded like dog poop. :rolleyes:

When comparing products for sale you tend to have eliminated many such oversights as the designers have listened and caught them. With this there is a false sense that "all subs are this way" and subtle, but important details can be assumed to be constant, when they sometimes are not.

What other kind of standard measuring conditions would you propose?

there really is no answer to that

you would need to have an "average" sized room with "average" acoustics and measure at the "average" listening position which is probably impossible to come up with

i emailed Tom Nousaine about this one time and he agrees that on subs that have drivers, ports, passive radiators on more than one side of the sub should be measured on each side with the numbers combined somehow (i doubt you would just add the numbers but there has to be some kind of formula of combining the output from multiple sides)

this is why Tom does not measure the subs he tests outside but in a large room

i think testimonials from people like ross who have actually lived with several different subs in the same room for a good period of time are golden

What other kind of standard measuring conditions would you propose?

Good question Mike.

How about a standard size home theater room? That standard size would be determined based on surveys. Speaking of which, that might be worth having an AVS poll.

Even if you were able to do that, there would be those who's subs wouldn't measure well and they'd find a flaw in that method.


Otk...beat me to it. lol

My own experience in my own room is that the frequency response of my subs seem to come closest to outdoor ground plane measurements. The room is very large (6000+ cu.ft.) and is essentially missing half of one of it's long walls. In other words, it's very open to my entire house. I think this is why I have found that for me, frequency response measured using the outdoor ground plane technique will fairly accurately predict the response of the sub in my room. Measurements done in a room with four walls wouldn't be of much use to me.

Since there is no real standard room, outdoor ground plane measurements to me seem to be the level playing field for which measurements done at different times and places can be compared. Once you know what sort of acoustic conditions exist in your own room, you can predict fairly well how your room gain might alter the response of a sub tested outdoors.

Which still doesn't make any sense. I have an exceptionally high regard for Ross, but I have to say that I still think something was wrong with his setup. He posted that a single submersive would go deeper and louder than dual Ultra 13s. But even Mark said that a Ultra 13 (in context he was talking about a single) would go louder at the tuning frequency which would be 15hz, than his submersive. So how can two ultras not even be louder???? Ross used the same procedure in setting up the two subs, but you have to remember that Ross also used the Denon 3808 with Audyssey which some are having problems with. I wouldn't be surprised that the differences Ross experienced had more to do with Audyssey mucking up the signal than anything else.

I would first point to the comment otk linked, and note that he was comparing real program material, not sine waves or tone bursts. Over at 1/2 of the operating range, the SubMersive will have no trouble hanging with a pair of Ultras, especially on music, where the SubMersive has very little compression right up to amplifier clip/limiting.

The context of the application matters a lot as well. I do many things in the design of my subwoofers which I feel make for a best fit in the vast majority of rooms and with real use. That isn't to say it's perfect for rooms of a given size and not of others, but more focused on the potential range of results having a higher probability of benign or beneficial subjective result (yes, still entirely based on measurements). I consider loudspeaker/subwoofer design, all of acoustics for that matter, to be an applied science, not an exact science.

It is easy to talk in terms of exact input to output accuracy in an amplifier. It is very different to try and have the same discussion with subwoofers or loudspeakers. So many aspects and dimensions of the performance are compromised by the time it gets to your ears that there is not a simplistic ideal we are engineering to. One very simplistic example is the difference between an overload sound that makes you think "I guess I'm pushing the limits and I'll back off some" vs. a sound that inspires you to dive for the remote control in fear (warranted or not). Again, we listen and reproduce complex, time varying signals which differ from the condition of a simple sine wave measurement. MANY sine-based measurements can tell us nearly all about a subwoofer, but a couple measurements can only really give us a general image and seed a few hunches. Correlate those ideas and hunches with some user observations, and you can quickly paint a better picture of what is possible in your own system.

At what distance where those measurements taken?

Kain, those measurements were taken at the main seating position, its right at 10ft from the sub, so yes its farther that 2m (3.05m)

If volume is a concern, they could increase the price. If the product is that good, it seems reasonable and fair to charge a fair price that balances supply and demand. Mark could roll the extra profits back into R&D (in order to provide customers an even better product) or invest in more capacity (so he could eventually serve more customers).

They could also post the wait time. That would allow them to keep the same price while fairly setting expectaions on the wait. That would really limit the sales to only those who reallly apprecated the product.


One of my primary goals has been to do all I reasonably can to deliver a positive listening experience for my customers. Little details like the current inclusion of the Gold-Line Audio Toolkit DVD and having my own user forum are part of that effort. I waited about a year to start shipping overseas to first prove the results and the delivery process (packaging for example).

There are many contributing factors to how things have progressed, and honestly I am very happy with how things have grown very steadily month-month since last July and August. This wasn't quite the original plan or time line, but "C'est la vie." This timing of increasing delivery of SubMersives happened to be close in time with the end of Craig's testing.


I just don't think it is fair to the other products on the market to ignore our best estimate of the Submersives craigsub HT rating.

I am plenty comfortable in not having a definitive craigsub ranking on the SubMersive. I guarantee that the many happy owners' SubMersives will not sound any better after it is given a rating. :rolleyes: Since Craig's tests and scores were mostly based on the panel of listeners, I suggest you re-consider your guess based on the direct comparisons others have made with the SubMersive to those products Craig tested.

It is probable Craig will get a SubMersive some time this year (probably after his golf season :p) and I will likely beg, plead and barter for him to never attach a numerical score to it. I greatly welcome any and all of his impressions and descriptions which have been very insightful between the various subwoofers he and his group of listeners have evaluated.

I don't have any Seaton Sound products...YET but what I can say is this....they deserve ALL the hype!!! I've heard the SubMersive in action and I was VERY IMPRESSED! Mark's products' will make you drool and your ears will be enlighted with sonic bliss. I don't discredit any of the subs that Craig reviewed, but I know for a fact, Mark's Submersive will go toe to toe OR out perform many of them. I'm waiting to hear the Terraforms at an upcoming meet in June. I was taken back by Mark's Catalysts and Sparks....but that's a different forum.

Hey Mark, have you though about starting an internet store ? Although I suppose it might be difficult as you only have a few products.

Hey Mark, have you though about starting an internet store ? Although I suppose it might be difficult as you only have a few products.

Seeing as Seaton Sound products are bought internet direct, I would venture to say that is his internet store.

My own experience in my own room is that the frequency response of my subs seem to come closest to outdoor ground plane measurements. The room is very large (6000+ cu.ft.) and is essentially missing half of one of it's long walls. In other words, it's very open to my entire house. I think this is why I have found that for me, frequency response measured using the outdoor ground plane technique will fairly accurately predict the response of the sub in my room. Measurements done in a room with four walls wouldn't be of much use to me.

Since there is no real standard room, outdoor ground plane measurements to me seem to be the level playing field for which measurements done at different times and places can be compared. Once you know what sort of acoustic conditions exist in your own room, you can predict fairly well how your room gain might alter the response of a sub tested outdoors.

While it has become conventional wisdom for people to evaluate a subwoofer based on what it does in delivering a 2 meter GP session, the measuring sessions seen to date will not tell one how a subwoofer will perform in one's room and system on program material.

The reason for this is relatively simple: the 2 meter Ground Plane sessions are taken one frequency at a time.

This type of testing does not show what happens with the subwoofer when it is asked to deliver high level signals at several different frequencies simultaneously.

If one looks at 2 subwoofers, and one subwoofer (A) uses drivers which are 6 dB more efficient than the other (B), subwoofer A will utilize its amplifier power "better" than will subwoofer "B".

An interesting test would be to take two subwoofers that can deliver, say, 105 dB at 20 Hz in the 2 meter GP session and send to each a signal which requires a 102 dB signal at 20 Hz and 108 dB at 50 Hz simultaneously.

Typically, in this case, the subwoofer with the higher efficiency drivers will "win" this contest, because the amplifier (all else being equal) will be working less hard in the higher efficency unit.

Mark's amp in the Submersive is far superior to even the best plate amplifiers used in most commercial subs (outside the JL Audio subs, and perhaps some from Velodyne. Apologies if I missed anyone else.). It is very had to make this amp clip.

Mark also uses relatively efficient drivers in the Submersive.

One of the reasons Submersive owners experience such incredible bass from a Submersive is something which the standard GP session won't show: When being required to deliver high SPL at several frequencies (which is the norm), a Submersive's amp and driver combination are less compromised than are most other designs, especially near its price range.

Mark - I am looking forward to getting a Submersive here later in 2009. No "number" will be applied to it. :D

Mark - I am looking forward to getting a Submersive here later in 2009. No "number" will be applied to it. :D

I can drive mine over this weekend:eek::D

I can drive mine over this weekend:eek::D

The problem is Texas has been trained that any subwoofer which arrives here will have to stay for at least 6 months. As a 100 Doberman, he usually gets his way. :eek::D

While it has become conventional wisdom for people to evaluate a subwoofer based on what it does in delivering a 2 meter GP session, the measuring sessions seen to date will not tell one how a subwoofer will perform in one's room and system on program material.

The reason for this is relatively simple: the 2 meter Ground Plane sessions are taken one frequency at a time.

This type of testing does not show what happens with the subwoofer when it is asked to deliver high level signals at several different frequencies simultaneously.

If one looks at 2 subwoofers, and one subwoofer (A) uses drivers which are 6 dB more efficient than the other (B), subwoofer A will utilize its amplifier power "better" than will subwoofer "B".

An interesting test would be to take two subwoofers that can deliver, say, 105 dB at 20 Hz in the 2 meter GP session and send to each a signal which requires a 102 dB signal at 20 Hz and 108 dB at 50 Hz simultaneously.

Typically, in this case, the subwoofer with the higher efficiency drivers will "win" this contest, because the amplifier (all else being equal) will be working less hard in the higher efficency unit.

Mark's amp in the Submersive is far superior to even the best plate amplifiers used in most commercial subs (outside the JL Audio subs, and perhaps some from Velodyne. Apologies if I missed anyone else.). It is very had to make this amp clip.

Mark also uses relatively efficient drivers in the Submersive.

One of the reasons Submersive owners experience such incredible bass from a Submersive is something which the standard GP session won't show: When being required to deliver high SPL at several frequencies (which is the norm), a Submersive's amp and driver combination are less compromised than are most other designs, especially near its price range.

Excellent! This has been explained to me many times, but I am glad someone finally typed it up! The subwoofer's capability/ability to handle the many sounds it has to do at the same time. Thanks Craig.

BTW, from forum members I personally know and trust, and that have personally heard one (along with subs that I am familiar with), the Submmersive is stellar.

Excellent! This has been explained to me many times, but I am glad someone finally typed it up! The subwoofer's capability/ability to handle the many sounds it has to do at the same time. Thanks Craig.

+1!!!

Good to hear from craigsub again...

It is very had to make this amp clip.

There are a few things that have caused my clip light to come on. For example WOTW played at reference while the sub is EQ'd with a +6 db house curve. Of course one would not normally watch the movie this way unless you have had or would like to have hearing loss issues. FWIW, I keep two EQ curves, one with the house curve which helps boost below 40 hz when the MV is dialed down from reference, and the other for when you decide to watch a movie at full blast. At reference or below, with the flat curve, it would definitely be hard to clip the amp in my room.

The problem is Texas has been trained that any subwoofer which arrives here will have to stay for at least 6 months. As a 100 Doberman, he usually gets his way. :eek::D

Watch what you ask for, Kevin might stay for 6 months too.

Anyone has the Terraform XL yet?

Watch what you ask for, Kevin might stay for 6 months too.

He is small enough that my wife might think he is another one of the kids, too.

Sorry Kevin ... Couldn't resist. :o:D

Anyone has the Terraform XL yet?

I am waiting for the first 2...hopefully in the next month or 2!

I am waiting for the first 2...hopefully in the next month or 2!

Fantabulous. Can't wait to get some feedback on that one.
Talk about not for the space challenged:eek::eek:
Terraform XL
High Output, Ultra Low Frequency specialty subwoofer design
Two(2) 15" drivers (internally mounted)
Two(2) 18" passive radiators (HF chamber)
large enclosure with slot vent tuned to ~12Hz
DSP Controlled (manufacturer only) ICEpower amplifier 2000W peak power (1200W sustained)
Tentative dimensions: 52" x 22.5" x 28"
Weight: Likely to approach 200 lbs

He is small enough that my wife might think he is another one of the kids, too.

Sorry Kevin ... Couldn't resist. :o:D

Damn! Always cracking about Kevin's height. Kevin, they make shoes to add a couple inches to your height challenged frame.

Fantabulous. Can't wait to get some feedback on that one.
Talk about not for the space challenged:eek::eek:
Terraform XL
High Output, Ultra Low Frequency specialty subwoofer design
Two(2) 15" drivers (internally mounted)
Two(2) 18" passive radiators (HF chamber)
large enclosure with slot vent tuned to ~12Hz
DSP Controlled (manufacturer only) ICEpower amplifier 2000W peak power (1200W sustained)
Tentative dimensions: 52" x 22.5" x 28"
Weight: Likely to approach 200 lbs

Damn Mike! You had to post those specs didn't you. I'm starting to drool again! :)

Damn Mike! You had to post those specs didn't you. I'm starting to drool again! :)

Yes. As a matter of fact I did have to print them :D. Just don't ruin your keyboard with your drool:p.

Quick question! How many Rythmik Audio F15s would it take to match the output of a single SubMersive (in-room)?

Quick question! How many Rythmik Audio F15s would it take to match the output of a single SubMersive (in-room)?

That's another difficult comparison because the Rythmiks are internally eq'd for a flat anechoic response to 14hz while Submersive is not.

That's another difficult comparison because the Rythmiks are internally eq'd for a flat anechoic response to 14hz while Submersive is not. What about in the midbass regions?

Would any of you Submersive owners provide me with a frequency response graph of your room from the main listening position showing what it looks like before and after running Audyssey MultEQ XT? I am interested to see how Audyssey interacts with the amp's internal EQ.

I own a Rythmik, but if I had the budget for a Submersive, I would go that route. As far as I can tell, the only reason to get multiple Rythmiks would be to help even out response in your room.

I have not heard a Submersive, but I am basing my opinion on a friend or two that have....and have heard other subs that I have heard as well.

Would any of you Submersive owners provide me with a frequency response graph of your room from the main listening position showing what it looks like before and after running Audyssey MultEQ XT? I am interested to see how Audyssey interacts with the amp's internal EQ.
I believe the internal EQ on the Submersive is static, so there would be no ill effects. The effect of Audessey should be the same as any other sub that it would EQ.

I own a Rythmik, but if I had the budget for a Submersive, I would go that route. As far as I can tell, the only reason to get multiple Rythmiks would be to help even out response in your room.

I have not heard a Submersive, but I am basing my opinion on a friend or two that have....and have heard other subs that I have heard as well.

also if he's looking to match the output of the submersive, the subs would have to be stacked for maximum output and who knows how many it would take 2 3 4 ?

plus you would lose the advantage of the incredible infrasonics that a good non high passed sealed sub can give and also lose the sound quality advantages of the opposing drivers

Are the Rythmiks high-passed? If so, where?

I believe the internal EQ on the Submersive is static, so there would be no ill effects. The effect of Audessey should be the same as any other sub that it would EQ.

I am just curious to see side-by-side comparsions.

I am having (among many other Ultra owners) issues with Audyssey heavily boosting the natural rolloff of my SVS Ultras. If someone didn't know this (like I didn't before using REW), I can see how someone could prematurely hit the limits of their Ultra giving the false impression of it's capabilities. Now that I found a way to "trick" Audyssey into not boosting the teen Hz area of my Ultras, I have gained 10+ SPL dBs in the 18Hz to 35Hz area. Example, now my dual Ultras in my 6400 cubic foot basement can provide me with 120+ SPL dBs on WOTW vs 110 SPL dBs just two days ago. This is at my main listening area 14' from the subs. Just imagine how my Ultras would perform if I didn't have to set my room comp to small and put it in the 20 Hz tune in order to "trick" Audyssey.

Clarification:

The 120 dB reading didn't sound pretty. No weird popping noise, but rather distortion(?). I also had to add 6 dB to my sub trim level to achieve this reading at reference.

Are the Rythmiks high-passed? If so, where?

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15_features.html

scroll down to "bass extension controls"

looks like 14hz is the lower limit

also if he's looking to match the output of the submersive, the subs would have to be stacked for maximum output and who knows how many it would take 2 3 4 ?

plus you would lose the advantage of the incredible infrasonics that a good non high passed sealed sub can give and also lose the sound quality advantages of the opposing drivers

How would the Fathom F212 compare to a Submersive? For the sake of discussion lets ignore the difference in price.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15_features.html

scroll down to "bass extension controls"

looks like 14hz is the lower limit


You are correct. Thanks for the info.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15_features.html

scroll down to "bass extension controls"

looks like 14hz is the lower limit
Also in the specs:
Rumble Filter (High pass ) 14/20/28Hz 18 dB/octave

Here is the proof that Audyssey is heavily boosting the teen Hz area...

143345

Here is proof that setting room comp to small and putting the sub in the 20Hz tune helped with my boosting problem...

143346

This is just what happens in my setup. I am not saying that everyone will experience these results. I did try running Audyssey with my Ultras in 4 acceptable sub locations with similar results so I really don't think it can all be my room.

How would the Fathom F212 compare to a Submersive? For the sake of discussion lets ignore the difference in price.

that sub has an even higher HP filter than the rythmik. i'm sure it sounds great but could never match the infrasoncis of the submersive

Here is the proof that Audyssey is heavily boosting the teen Hz area...

143345

Here is proof that setting room comp to small and putting the sub in the 20Hz tune helped with my boosting problem...

143346

This is just what happens in my setup. I am not saying that everyone will experience these results. I did try running Audyssey with my Ultras in 4 acceptable sub locations with similar results so I really don't think it can all be my room.
Interesting...but may be a bit misleading because the graph scales are different. Have you asked Audessey about this?

that sub has an even higher HP filter than the rythmik. i'm sure it sounds great but could never match the infrasoncis of the submersive Pardon my ignorance, but what are infrasonics?

Pardon my ignorance, but what are infrasonics?

response below 20hz

Interesting...but may be a bit misleading because the graph scales are different. Have you asked Audessey about this?

From 15Hz down to 10Hz the two lines are equal. Sorry for the different scales. I don't have access to my laptop or I would repost.

Boy have I ever let Audyssey know about it. Even Ed at SVS has confirmed that Audyssey (consumer version, Pro works correctly) is doing the exact same thing in their labs. I have posted much of my findings in the Audyssey thread. So much so that I think I have ticked Audyssey off. I just hope he doesn't take it personally and tries to reproduce the issue in house like he said he would.

From 15Hz down to 10Hz the two lines are equal. Sorry for the different scales. I don't have access to my laptop or I would repost.

Boy have I ever let Audyssey know about it. Even Ed at SVS has confirmed that Audyssey (consumer version, Pro works correctly) is doing the exact same thing in their labs. I have posted much of my findings in the Audyssey thread. So much so that I think I have ticked Audyssey off. I just hope he doesn't take it personally and tries to reproduce the issue in house like he said he would.
Got it. It certainly looks like an Audessey problem.

Pardon my ignorance, but what are infrasonics?


This is the king of infrasonics. Output of over 110 db down to 3 Hz.

Too bad it is so expensive (~$20,000 installed). Also, placement can be a real problem.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=15873

This is the king of infrasonics. Output of over 110 db down to 3 Hz.

Too bad it is so expensive (~$20,000 installed). Also, placement can be a real problem.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=15873 Thing looks dangerous! :eek:

Damn! Always cracking about Kevin's height. Kevin, they make shoes to add a couple inches to your height challenged frame.

I have met his kids and Kevin, and unless the kids shrank in the last two years, Craig was being nice.

One of Seaton's marketing tricks is to use guys like Kevin and Itai in pictures with his subs. The Terraform is actually a fairly small sub, but with those to having to use a step stool to climb on top and sitdown with their legs dangling, it makes them seem huge.

Fantabulous. Can't wait to get some feedback on that one.
Talk about not for the space challenged:eek::eek:
Terraform XL
High Output, Ultra Low Frequency specialty subwoofer design
Two(2) 15" drivers (internally mounted)
Two(2) 18" passive radiators (HF chamber)
large enclosure with slot vent tuned to ~12Hz
DSP Controlled (manufacturer only) ICEpower amplifier 2000W peak power (1200W sustained)
Tentative dimensions: 52" x 22.5" x 28"
Weight: Likely to approach 200 lbs

I know. :D I hope my sealed, DD room can take it. :D

i have met his kids and kevin, and unless the kids shrank in the last two years, craig was being nice.

One of seaton's marketing tricks is to use guys like kevin and itai in pictures with his subs. The terraform is actually a fairly small sub, but with those to having to use a step stool to climb on top and sitdown with their legs dangling, it makes them seem huge.

now that was a bit harsh;)

now that was a bit harsh;)

There only a few of you shorter than me so I have to give you a larger share of abuse.

Now that I found a way to "trick" Audyssey into not boosting the teen Hz area of my Ultras, I have gained 10+ SPL dBs in the 18Hz to 35Hz area.

How did you do that??

How did you do that??

set subwoofer to small

:p

How did you do that??

set room comp (HPF?) to small and using the 20Hz tune. I lost a lot of extension (only 18Hz or so) by doing this. I am sure this is why I can push them so hard without hitting their limits.

See 20hztunewithsmallroomcomp.jpg in post 1185 for my current FR graph for my main listening position. It's not pretty, but at least Audyssey isn't wreaking havoc on my Ultras.

I have met his kids and Kevin, and unless the kids shrank in the last two years, Craig was being nice.

One of Seaton's marketing tricks is to use guys like Kevin and Itai in pictures with his subs. The Terraform is actually a fairly small sub, but with those to having to use a step stool to climb on top and sitdown with their legs dangling, it makes them seem huge.

LMAO! A bit harsh...yes.....funny?.....YES.

Would any of you Submersive owners provide me with a frequency response graph of your room from the main listening position showing what it looks like before and after running Audyssey MultEQ XT? I am interested to see how Audyssey interacts with the amp's internal EQ.

I'll be toying with the Audyssey Pro kit for processors like the Integra 9.8/9.9 and my Denon 3808 to see how it works out in the near future. The SubMersive does have the benefit that in most rooms you already have a good deal of extension down low, so there isn't so much to try and compensate. It most certainly can rob headroom as you noted, but with a few SubMersives it could be very welcome. Generally I prefer to leave the <15-18Hz output where it falls unless I have multiple SubMersives in the system or the owners aren't going to be playing at higher levels. In many cases you can target the 20-40Hz range to be ~6dB above the average above 100Hz, and even if there is a downward taper to the VLF range you still are within a few dB of the main speaker level below 15Hz.

While it has become conventional wisdom for people to evaluate a subwoofer based on what it does in delivering a 2 meter GP session, the measuring sessions seen to date will not tell one how a subwoofer will perform in one's room and system on program material.

The reason for this is relatively simple: the 2 meter Ground Plane sessions are taken one frequency at a time.

This type of testing does not show what happens with the subwoofer when it is asked to deliver high level signals at several different frequencies simultaneously.

If one looks at 2 subwoofers, and one subwoofer (A) uses drivers which are 6 dB more efficient than the other (B), subwoofer A will utilize its amplifier power "better" than will subwoofer "B".

An interesting test would be to take two subwoofers that can deliver, say, 105 dB at 20 Hz in the 2 meter GP session and send to each a signal which requires a 102 dB signal at 20 Hz and 108 dB at 50 Hz simultaneously.

Typically, in this case, the subwoofer with the higher efficiency drivers will "win" this contest, because the amplifier (all else being equal) will be working less hard in the higher efficency unit.

Mark's amp in the Submersive is far superior to even the best plate amplifiers used in most commercial subs (outside the JL Audio subs, and perhaps some from Velodyne. Apologies if I missed anyone else.). It is very had to make this amp clip.

Mark also uses relatively efficient drivers in the Submersive.

One of the reasons Submersive owners experience such incredible bass from a Submersive is something which the standard GP session won't show: When being required to deliver high SPL at several frequencies (which is the norm), a Submersive's amp and driver combination are less compromised than are most other designs, especially near its price range.

Mark - I am looking forward to getting a Submersive here later in 2009. No "number" will be applied to it. :D

Excellent! This has been explained to me many times, but I am glad someone finally typed it up! The subwoofer's capability/ability to handle the many sounds it has to do at the same time. Thanks Craig.

BTW, from forum members I personally know and trust, and that have personally heard one (along with subs that I am familiar with), the Submmersive is stellar.

Thank you Craig, and thank curtis.

The realities of reproducing a complex signal are something I've been posting about for quite a while. A thread was linked earlier where I stated much the same as Craig did above, and it's good to see it being digested and re-posted for others.

I'll be toying with the Audyssey Pro kit for processors like the Integra 9.8/9.9 and my Denon 3808 to see how it works out in the near future. The SubMersive does have the benefit that in most rooms you already have a good deal of extension down low, so there isn't so much to try and compensate. It most certainly can rob headroom as you noted, but with a few SubMersives it could be very welcome. Generally I prefer to leave the <15-18Hz output where it falls unless I have multiple SubMersives in the system or the owners aren't going to be playing at higher levels. In many cases you can target the 20-40Hz range to be ~6dB above the average above 100Hz, and even if there is a downward taper to the VLF range you still are within a few dB of the main speaker level below 15Hz.

Mark,

I would be really interested if you could provide me with how the consumer version of Audyssey on your 3808 differs from running Pro. Ed at SVS told me that in their labs that can reproduce my issue of Audyssey heavily over boosting the teen Hz area. The Pro version on the other hand does not do this in his experiences. Chris took great offense when I quoted Ed in the Audyssey thread.

I am wondering if the Submersive amp is producing a FR curve that Audyssey plays nice with compared to the amp in the Ultra? In any case, I bet the amp in the Submersive handles any over boosting much more gracefully. Especially when I read comments like rossandwendy's.

Rossandwendy,

Were you using Audyssey when you were auditioning your Ultras?

Chris took great offense when I quoted Ed in the Audyssey thread.

It is interesting that you state this. I read the Audyssey thread regularly, and Chris has always exhibited the utmost respect and professionalism in his posts. I even went back and re-read his reaction to your post, and I detected no offense in his response.

YMMV

Mark

I'll be toying with the Audyssey Pro kit for processors like the Integra 9.8/9.9 and my Denon 3808 to see how it works out in the near future. The SubMersive does have the benefit that in most rooms you already have a good deal of extension down low, so there isn't so much to try and compensate. It most certainly can rob headroom as you noted, but with a few SubMersives it could be very welcome. Generally I prefer to leave the <15-18Hz output where it falls unless I have multiple SubMersives in the system or the owners aren't going to be playing at higher levels. In many cases you can target the 20-40Hz range to be ~6dB above the average above 100Hz, and even if there is a downward taper to the VLF range you still are within a few dB of the main speaker level below 15Hz.

Mark, do you have any impressions on how Audyssey MultEQ XT interacts with the Sparks? I am considering implementing Audyssey DSX later this year, with Sparks in the L/C/R/LW/RW/LH/RH channels.

Thanks.

Mark

It is interesting that you state this. I read the Audyssey thread regularly, and Chris has always exhibited the utmost respect and professionalism in his posts. I even went back and re-read his reaction to your post, and I detected no offense in his response.

YMMV

Mark

Yeah, I PM'd him. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't ticking him off. Sometimes I read too much into emails, posts, etc. It is really hard to determine tone. I read through some old posts of mine sometimes and can't believe how my tone must have come across to others.

After we PM'd back and forth many times, he believes he understands why the boosting is occuring. Whether or not it should be doing it is still up for debate. But he totally understands what is going on now and why it is happening. We'll see what comes out of it.

After we PM'd back and forth many times, he believes he understands why the boosting is occuring. Whether or not it should be doing it is still up for debate. But he totally understands what is going on now and why it is happening. We'll see what comes out of it.

Great news--now like you say, hopefully a fix is in the mix...

I'm anxious for more SubMersive owners to share more experiences! Anyone watch a movie like Taken or Valkyrie with any "reviews" explaining the SubMersive's capabilities?!

Great news--now like you say, hopefully a fix is in the mix...

I'm anxious for more SubMersive owners to share more experiences! Anyone watch a movie like Taken or Valkyrie with any "reviews" explaining the SubMersive's capabilities?! I have a SubMersive on order. I'll be posting my review once I receive it. :)

I have a SubMersive on order. I'll be posting my review once I receive it. :)

Giddyup!

I have a SubMersive on order. I'll be posting my review once I receive it. :)

I think everyone knows that you're getting a SubMersive. :D

I have a SubMersive on order. I'll be posting my review once I receive it. :)


I thought it was a PB13 ultra?


Tad overkill for the smallish room you live in really....

Will they take a PB13 Ultra on trade?

I thought it was a PB13 ultra?


Tad overkill for the smallish room you live in really....

Good sound QUALITY is not overkill just because the room is "smallish" and just because the SubMersive is capable of tremendous QUANTITY of bass does not mean you need to use it all.

I love how the submersive sounds playing acoustic bass at reasonable listening volumes. In those situations I am not really tapping into 2 full octaves of extension it could deliver nor am I getting anywhere near the max output capabilities above 40 hz, but it still sounds better than a lesser sub. There is so much more to subs than max output numbers. Yeah I know everybody likes numerical scores, graphs charts rankings etc. that take the brain work out of purchasing decisions, but that does not really work in audio no matter how much people want it to.

I'm saving my pennies Mark, I think this will be my next sub. My DIY subs are just too dang big.

Hopefully in a couple weeks I'll be placing an order.:D

Does anybody have some close up shots of the Submersive? Id like to get a better idea of what the finish is like. At this point that is the only thing holding me back. My MFW-15 is satin black but its a nice smooth finish , it was really nicely done.

Id appreciate some pics, thanks

I don't use the sub for 2ch music. My mains are quite good in reproducing full range music. But, I do like to watch dvd music concerts. The sub really shines in this area. I just watched Eric Claptons' DVD that he did on the music of Robert Johnson. The first half was electric. The electric bass and the drums sounded fantastic. I was very impressed. I have also watched concerts by Little Feat, John Mayall and SRV and
The Allman Brothers Band. They all sound fantastic. The bass and drums are just right IMHO. Even at very loud levels, the system never lost control. A nice aspect to have to go along with the quality you get from movies.

Does anybody have some close up shots of the Submersive? Id like to get a better idea of what the finish is like. At this point that is the only thing holding me back. My MFW-15 is satin black but its a nice smooth finish , it was really nicely done.

Id appreciate some pics, thanks

Here is a link of two pics of the sub
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=1940876
You may have to scroll down a bit. The finish is not a satin smooth finish but it does look quite nice.

Does anybody have some close up shots of the Submersive? Id like to get a better idea of what the finish is like. At this point that is the only thing holding me back. My MFW-15 is satin black but its a nice smooth finish , it was really nicely done.

Id appreciate some pics, thanks

Here are links to the full size images (LARGE) of 3 shots with different lighting. I think they are fairly representative of a close up look. If you get back a few feet the texture does tend to disappear.

texture1.JPG (http://www.m-fine.com/texture1.JPG)

texture2.JPG (http://www.m-fine.com/texture2.JPG)

texture3.JPG (http://www.m-fine.com/texture3.JPG)

Here are links to the full size images (LARGE) of 3 shots with different lighting. I think they are fairly representative of a close up look. If you get back a few feet the texture does tend to disappear.

texture1.JPG (http://www.m-fine.com/texture1.JPG)

texture2.JPG (http://www.m-fine.com/texture2.JPG)

texture3.JPG (http://www.m-fine.com/texture3.JPG)


Can the sub be ordered without that finish and have the buyer take care of the finishing themself? Or is that a bad idea?

Hi Mark,

I tried to call you yesterday. Did you get me voicemail message ok. Would it be ok to call you today?

cheers

Graham

Thanks for the pics m-fine416


JimP, as I understand it the Submersive may get a veneer finish at some point.

Does anyone have a submersive in central Iowa that would be willing to let me demo? I'm on the fence between it and an eD A7-900

You might have to drive over around Chicago to get that demo. I hope you do demo the submersive as I was sort of looking at those two models myself :)
I am in Wyoming which is far from anywhere pretty much but I may drive over to Des Moines and see the eD stuff and then I have relatives in Rockford so will probably demo a submersive in the same trip but that will be later in the summer.

Does anyone have a submersive in central Iowa that would be willing to let me demo? I'm on the fence between it and an eD A7-900

I have not heard a Submersive myself but ive been around here a number of years and so has Mark Seaton, there is no doubt that buying a Submersive is a very safe blind buy. More than likely I will be picking one up at some point.

I'm just a little sketchy about buying a sealed sub blind as I'm a fan of ported boxes due to output so not sure if the submersive would be enf but I so like how the cabinet is much smaller than the A7-900

I'm just a little sketchy about buying a sealed sub blind as I'm a fan of ported boxes due to output so not sure if the submersive would be enf but I so like how the cabinet is much smaller than the A7-900 Based on all the user reviews I have read, I can safely conclude that output is definitely not one of the SubMersive's weaknesses.

I'm just a little sketchy about buying a sealed sub blind as I'm a fan of ported boxes due to output so not sure if the submersive would be enf but I so like how the cabinet is much smaller than the A7-900

Yes, much , much smaller. I'd be curious how a Submersive is up against an A7-900 as well.

Say Mark ! , have you by chance heard an A7-900, if not can you take a guess at how one might stack up based on the A7-900s specs and Craigsub's review?

The A7-900 does have more cubic inches, but I got a feeling that Mark's amp is of better quality.

A7-900 (http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?products_id=606)

I too have been on the fence between eD and the submersive. eD is about 30 minutes from me and I have considered driving over there to check out their subs. Unfortunately living in Iowa would probably also make me subject to sales tax for an eD so it would be a wash as far as free shipping for one. I wrote Mark an email about requesting to purchase a submersive and I am guessing that if I hear back from him before I head to newton I will probably be buying one, barring outrageous s/h to iowa.

The A7-900 does have more cubic inches, but I got a feeling that Mark's amp is of better quality.

A7-900 (http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?products_id=606)

while he hasn't owned the A7-900, Ross has owned an array of popular subs including dual ultras

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16330164&postcount=50

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=2922335

What are your rooms like? How many cuft, enclosed, or open to other spaces?

In a moderate sized enclosed room the SubMersive's sealed sub rolloff matches with the room gain to give excellent extension. In such a room, the eD will likely need more EQ to cut the response below 30 hz or so to keep the response flat.

In a large open space with less room gain the extra output of the eD down to the tuning point may be welcome, and a single SubMersibe might show a rolloff in the in room response.

FWIW, my SubMersive does great in an enclosed room of about 3800 cuft which is certainly not small. For larger open rooms, Seaton also makes the Teraform and the Teraflrm XL but plan on a bigger budget.

I too have been on the fence between eD and the submersive. eD is about 30 minutes from me and I have considered driving over there to check out their subs. Unfortunately living in Iowa would probably also make me subject to sales tax for an eD so it would be a wash as far as free shipping for one. I wrote Mark an email about requesting to purchase a submersive and I am guessing that if I hear back from him before I head to newton I will probably be buying one, barring outrageous s/h to iowa.

Check your e-mail, as I believe I responded to your simple question before you made this post. ;)

Still working through plenty of other e-mails in between house/yard tasks for the holiday weekend. http://www.websitetoolbox.com/images/boards/smilies/comp.gif

What are your rooms like? Hue many cuft, enclosed, or open to other spaces?

In a moderate sized enclosed room the SubMersive's sealed sub rolloff matches with the room gain to give excellent extension. In such a room, the eD will likely need more EQ to cut the response below 30 hz or so to keep the response flat.

In a large open space with less room gain the extra output of the eD down to the tuning point may be welcome, and a single SubMersibe might show a rolloff in the in room response.

FWIW, my SubMersive does great in an enclosed room of about 3800 cuft which is certainly not small.

As huge as the A7-900 is (3x the size and weight of the SubMersive), the box isn't all that huge for the pair of 18" woofers they use. Unless the specs on the 19Ov.2 are significantly off (the D2 Ohm is listed, so the D4 could be a bit different), I would wager the SubMersive hits a tighter tolerance down to 19Hz if measured outdoors. I expect the A7-900 to be louder above ~15Hz as it should be having comparable power and MUCH larger size. The eD ported subwoofers are not high passed, so you still have to watch out on things like WOTW, but I doubt you could ever do any damage to it with VLF content. As huge as the A7-900 is, the SubMersive will actually be pretty close in most music listening, where a pair would exceed the upper bass headroom of the still larger eD.

Long story short... It's a question of size and refinement vs. using huge volume to provide the value, as I have plenty of DSP and limiting available to me in the polishing of the design, and a very high quality, and rather expensive amplifier. My own take on something that large will be seen soon enough in the Terraform XL, although it will be a good deal more expensive while extending to 10-11Hz in-room. :cool:

Check your e-mail, as I believe I responded to your simple question before you made this post. ;)

Still working through plenty of other e-mails in between house/yard tasks for the holiday weekend. http://www.websitetoolbox.com/images/boards/smilies/comp.gif

I emailed you back, I believe we will be talking before too long.

I'm just a little sketchy about buying a sealed sub blind as I'm a fan of ported boxes due to output so not sure if the submersive would be enf but I so like how the cabinet is much smaller than the A7-900

I bought it blind. I really had no chance of hearing one before I commited. But, I had a few private conversations with Mark, plus a brief conversation with someone who will go unamed, so I took a chance. It was not the wrong choice. My previous sub was a ported sub and I have heard a number of good ones. The submersive is a capable subwoofer to be sure. I do also like the fact that it is more compact then some of the other mosters out there. Including the ones that Mark sells himself:p.

I'll be toying with the Audyssey Pro kit for processors like the Integra 9.8/9.9 and my Denon 3808 to see how it works out in the near future. The SubMersive does have the benefit that in most rooms you already have a good deal of extension down low, so there isn't so much to try and compensate. It most certainly can rob headroom as you noted, but with a few SubMersives it could be very welcome. Generally I prefer to leave the <15-18Hz output where it falls unless I have multiple SubMersives in the system or the owners aren't going to be playing at higher levels. In many cases you can target the 20-40Hz range to be ~6dB above the average above 100Hz, and even if there is a downward taper to the VLF range you still are within a few dB of the main speaker level below 15Hz.

Mark, do you have any impressions on how Audyssey MultEQ XT interacts with the Sparks? I am considering implementing Audyssey DSX later this year, with Sparks in the L/C/R/LW/RW/LH/RH channels.

Thanks.

Mark

Mark, any input on my question?

Thanks.

Mark

Mark is SubMersive amplifier equipped with PHASE button and what kind of feet are mounted on the bottom of the Submersive (distance between them and height of them).

Thanks.
ZivkoF

There is no phase adjustment on mine. I think the assumption is that anyone spending the money on this level of sub is going to have upstream electronics that can handle phase/delay adjustments better than a knob on a plate amp. The only issue I could see is if you wanted to daisy chain non co located subs. Most EQ boxes have multiple outs (my DCX2496 has 6 of them in what is a rather affordable unit) so the need to daisy chain is easily avoided.

The feet on my sub look like solid rubber/plactic disks. My best estimate is that the raise the sub about 3/4" (2 cm) and they are located close to the corners. They are very close to the sides, and set back from the driver faces slightly more.

If I buy this sub is there anything else I have to get or will the pio elite sc05 be fine to drive it and EQ it?

Mark, do you have any impressions on how Audyssey MultEQ XT interacts with the Sparks? I am considering implementing Audyssey DSX later this year, with Sparks in the L/C/R/LW/RW/LH/RH channels.

Thanks.

Mark

Hi Gio',

I need to spend some more time getting more familiar with the new Audyssey DSX implementation, but in general Audyssey can be helpful in many areas, although best performance comes with a little babysitting or the ProKit attached.

What I have found most beneficial with Audyssey is voice matching the range below 500Hz which is highly dependent on placement of the speakers with respect to boundaries. Even 3 identical Sparks can sound different if one is either much closer to the floor, front or side wall.

Correction systems can only change the input signal, but not how the signal is propagated through the listening area. This is where the lack of any off axis hot-spots with the Spark & Catalyst become a big help, and the lack of major changes over the vertical or horizontal listening angle make Audyssey's work much more manageable and gives a higher likelihood of noticeable benefits. In short, the more consistent or smooth in changes the speaker, the more any room correction system will be able to help the result.

Still working through plenty of other e-mails in between house/yard tasks for the holiday weekend. http://www.websitetoolbox.com/images/boards/smilies/comp.gif

Does that mean your actually working on the kitchen:D

If I buy this sub is there anything else I have to get or will the pio elite sc05 be fine to drive it and EQ it?

Recievers do not drive a sub unless the sub is "passive" or doesn't have an amp. Subs that are built today have a builtin amp that powers the sub driver and the sub cable from the reciver to the sub just passes the freq from one to the other. For further info go to: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=824554. This site has all the info needed for setting up a HT.

Bill

There is no phase adjustment on mine. I think the assumption is that anyone spending the money on this level of sub is going to have upstream electronics that can handle phase/delay adjustments better than a knob on a plate amp. The only issue I could see is if you wanted to daisy chain non co located subs. Most EQ boxes have multiple outs (my DCX2496 has 6 of them in what is a rather affordable unit) so the need to daisy chain is easily avoided.

The feet on my sub look like solid rubber/plactic disks. My best estimate is that the raise the sub about 3/4" (2 cm) and they are located close to the corners. They are very close to the sides, and set back from the driver faces slightly more.

Many thanks m-fine416,

I have multi subs, two pasive horn folded subwoofers and two active subwoofers for HT (with phase adjustment), which would like to replace with or add one SubMersive :) so BEH DCX2496 would be the best solution when I will be listening all of them.

What are your rooms like? How many cuft, enclosed, or open to other spaces?

In a moderate sized enclosed room the SubMersive's sealed sub rolloff matches with the room gain to give excellent extension. In such a room, the eD will likely need more EQ to cut the response below 30 hz or so to keep the response flat.

In a large open space with less room gain the extra output of the eD down to the tuning point may be welcome, and a single SubMersibe might show a rolloff in the in room response.

FWIW, my SubMersive does great in an enclosed room of about 3800 cuft which is certainly not small. For larger open rooms, Seaton also makes the Teraform and the Teraflrm XL but plan on a bigger budget.

Many thanks m-fine416,

I have multi subs, two pasive horn folded subwoofers and two active subwoofers for HT (with phase adjustment), which would like to replace with or add one SubMersive :) so BEH DCX2496 would be the best solution when I will be listening all of them.

I have plenty of experience with horn subwoofers, and delays on the different subwoofer outputs via a DCX 2496 or other multi-output DSP is the way to go, and much more productive than a phase control.

Central Iowa shall soon be feeling some strange rumbling during movie night!

are you picking up a submersive?

Central Iowa shall soon be feeling some strange rumbling during movie night!

Congrats! :)

Looking forward to your review Firebrick...

BTW, what other sub experience have you had?

Congrats! :)

Looking forward to your review Firebrick...

BTW, what other sub experience have you had?

Right now I just have def tech 7002s set to small with the LFE going to my old pf1500tl, I am planning for and hoping for a significant difference...

Right now I just have def tech 7002s set to small with the LFE going to my old pf1500tl, I am planning for and hoping for a significant difference...

From the reports and specs, you're in for a bit of a bump in performance. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

What's your ETA?