I am 99% sure there is no such EQ in this ED sub.

Though I don't see that 16-18dB/oct rolloff Mark mentioned.

can you see that little bump at 17/18 hz ?

sealed subs don't do that

ported subs might or a sealed sub with EQ applied

can you see that little bump at 17/18 hz ?

sealed subs don't do that

ported subs might or a sealed sub with EQ applied

Exactly.

I am 99% sure there is no such EQ in this ED sub.

Though I don't see that 16-18dB/oct rolloff Mark mentioned.

I believe Mark is right. If you look close, there is a drop off of about 14db in a span of less than one octave between 10hz and about 18hz. That is a steeper slope than 12db/octave. This does not indicate bad performance. It means that there is something other than a completely natural sealed sub curve, most likely some eq or less likely, a high pass filter.

Marketting curve. With EQ adding an unknown ammount of boost in the low end, you have no idea how much capability was robbed from the upper end. Remember 3 db of boost requires double the power from the amp. Without additional information, I would assume the wosrt and figure the 102 db is max. Better yet, wait for non eq'd sweeps.

Also, FR graphs will not tell you much. If you have a good idea of what your room gain is in the location the sub will be (measured using you previous sub?) you could use that info to select a sub that matches with the room well. For example if your room shows no gain until 15 hz you know the SubMersive will not give the flat in room response many of us get, so you might look at the Terraforms instead. Other than that, the ground plane graph tells you little about how a sub will sound in your room.

You are correct. That certainly is different that what it seems if external eq is applied and not really noted. Maybe an eq boost in the high teens is what might account for that streeper slope that you noted.

Hey mike & others,

I'm not pitching conspiracy theories. I've just read the descriptions or posts alongside where graphs have been posted...

Check here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16841992#post16841992)

First and foremost it should be clear that unless you pull these subs outdoors and use something like an EQ.2 to manually match the responses posted, this is not the response had when you directly plug the sub in and take a measurement.

I have seen guys from ED mention that most of the subs have very similar response to the A7S-450 without EQ, but I haven't seen an outdoor measurement of that sub, only the in-room measurements posted.

Hmm, well I don't know what to make of all this. I just want a really good subwoofer.

If the FR graphs are using an EQ that seems a bit unfair , then again the EQ.2 is EDs and it is not expensive. So perhaps this is a sales pitch for it?

I have been exchanging emails with that guy in Mark's link above^^. I am pretty sure he is high up the chain at ED , if not the main boss. He seems to love what he does
and seems very knowledgable.

I have a feeling I would be happy with a Submersive or a A7s-650 .

But knowing my luck, I will buy one of em and be unhappy with it and be on the search again for another subwoofer.

Hmm, well I don't know what to make of all this. I just want a really good subwoofer.

If the FR graphs are using an EQ that seems a bit unfair , then again the EQ.2 is EDs and it is not expensive. So perhaps this is a sales pitch for it?

I have been exchanging emails with that guy in Mark's link above^^. I am pretty sure he is high up the chain at ED , if not the main boss. He seems to love what he does
and seems very knowledgable.

I have a feeling I would be happy with a Submersive or a A7s-650 .

But knowing my luck, I will buy one of em and be unhappy with it and be on the search again for another subwoofer.

i'd rather have the submersive with the dual opposing drivers

you might want to wait for the submersive XL with dual 18s and 3000 watt amp :)

by the way, both subs seem to be in the same price range and the submersive has larger drivers and the dual opposing driver feature

you might want to wait for the submersive XL with dual 18s and 3000 watt amp.


That sounds pretty sweet. Also these guys (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=10863) are only about 20 min away , I am not sure how just one would do because they are big and kinda ugly.

That sounds pretty sweet. Also these guys (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=10863) are only about 20 min away , I am not sure how just one would do because they are big and kinda ugly.

generally speaking, i'd still rather have a well executed sealed design over ported or passive radiator design for sound quality reasons

anyone know the price of these seaton subwoofers? :D

anyone know the price of these seaton subwoofers? :D

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3364736

thanks otk :)

Just some random obsevations here:
I have had the SubMersive in-house for a few months now. At first I spent lots of time with the aid of some local cohorts playing with the sub. Honestly, I bought the Anti-Mode and let that fly and do it's thing. I played around with level matching, etc. I think I have it pretty well dialed in for my likes/tastes.

Last night, I hooked up our XBox and got media center running to my main PC. It discovered all my music that I have on the system, including some of the recent ITunes M4A 256 bit stuff I and my wife have bought. The kids immediately all said "Play Boom Boom Pow" by the Blacked Eyed Peas. And yeah, thats about what it sounded like. Just awesome! For kicks, I played the song a few times and messed around with various things. First up was cranking up the volume on the sub. I had my Pioneer Recevier (VSX05THD) up to about +5 and the sub sitting on about 10 on the gain dial (mormally about 3 ticks from the bottom). Lets just say the whole house was significantly shaking. Total fun. I also played with the Anti-Mode 25 and 35 bump stops. Again, just rocking. The whole time I am hovering around the sub (and my body was totally being knocked around) but I was afraid of it going into clip. Not once did that light even flicker. All in all, the base was tight, clean, impactful (is that even a word?) and flat out amazing to listen to. What left me wanting was the rest of my system. I keep dreaming of those Sparks. One day... one day...

Sorry I am not an eq wiz like many here so I can't tell what it was actually putting out. I went the easy push button route. I have some of the measurement gadgest around, but don't trust that I would do the right thing to measure anyways. I can however say, everytime this sub makes a sound, I am amazed at what it produces.

Watched "Wanted" last night, paused the movie several times to say to my wife, that sub is freakin awesome. I think she was getting annoyed.

Just some random obsevations here:
I have had the SubMersive in-house for a few months now. At first I spent lots of time with the aid of some local cohorts playing with the sub. Honestly, I bought the Anti-Mode and let that fly and do it's thing. I played around with level matching, etc. I think I have it pretty well dialed in for my likes/tastes.

Last night, I hooked up our XBox and got media center running to my main PC. It discovered all my music that I have on the system, including some of the recent ITunes M4A 256 bit stuff I and my wife have bought. The kids immediately all said "Play Boom Boom Pow" by the Blacked Eyed Peas. And yeah, thats about what it sounded like. Just awesome! For kicks, I played the song a few times and messed around with various things. First up was cranking up the volume on the sub. I had my Pioneer Recevier (VSX05THD) up to about +5 and the sub sitting on about 10 on the gain dial (mormally about 3 ticks from the bottom). Lets just say the whole house was significantly shaking. Total fun. I also played with the Anti-Mode 25 and 35 bump stops. Again, just rocking. The whole time I am hovering around the sub (and my body was totally being knocked around) but I was afraid of it going into clip. Not once did that light even flicker. All in all, the base was tight, clean, impactful (is that even a word?) and flat out amazing to listen to. What left me wanting was the rest of my system. I keep dreaming of those Sparks. One day... one day...

Sorry I am not an eq wiz like many here so I can't tell what it was actually putting out. I went the easy push button route. I have some of the measurement gadgest around, but don't trust that I would do the right thing to measure anyways. I can however say, everytime this sub makes a sound, I am amazed at what it produces.
Nice insights! Mine ships this week, so I'm beyond excited to join the Sub-1 ranks!!!

watched "wanted" last night, paused the movie several times to say to my wife, that sub is freakin awesome. I think she was getting annoyed.

lol!!!

first question, would someone mind linking me to the post with the outdoor/goundplane measurements? after scrolling through a few back pages, i realize this could take a long time to find.

how about an index in the first post?

second question, is the surround foam? any durability concerns with using foam for a sealed subwoofer? what is the expected life and warranted life of foam in this application?

first question, would someone mind linking me to the post with the outdoor/goundplane measurements? after scrolling through a few back pages, i realize this could take a long time to find.

how about an index in the first post?

second question, is the surround foam? any durability concerns with using foam for a sealed subwoofer? what is the expected life and warranted life of foam in this application?

Hi LTD02, I see the thread piqued your interest again. ;)

There are not maximum output measurements posted as of yet, and I don't believe anyone is currently testing akin to what Illka was posting. The outdoor ground plane frequency response is posted on my forum in the thread "The SubMersive." Within 1-2 weeks I may get caught up on SubMersive backorders, and if we can then do the same with Catalyst and Terraform XL orders some outdoor measurements under appropriate conditions may make it to the to-do list. One user/designer is testing one in the near future and might be able to save me the time and allow me to post the data, but no promises at this point.

The surround is foam, but most all manufacturers are using foams which are quite different than what was used in the surrounds of drivers ~20 years ago. Foam can work just fine in car audio which is much more demanding with the elements and temperature changes. Foam also tends to have less significant changes in behavior with temperature. I use some drivers with foam surrounds, some with Santoprene, and some with treated cloth surrounds. Most anyone in the driver business will confirm (and I've posted many times here or on the DIY forum in the past), that depending on the environment, you can generally expect a 10-15 year time frame before behavior begins to change noticeably. Rubber and related products will harden, foams may discolor or possibly deteriorate, and cloth will stretch or soften. In cases of salt water exposure and high UV, you can cut the life span further, and there will certainly be cases where drivers will work for 25 years or so without issue. Note that with the right treatment over the foam, foam can be equal or better suited for long term or use in direct sunlight. While we tend to think of water and such as more destructive, the reality is that UV exposure is hardest on materials apart from physical trauma such as rubbing or puncture.

thanks mark.

i wasn't looking for max spl measurements...just wanted to see the uncorrected frequency response in 2pi space.

thanks for the explanation on the surround material.

thanks mark.

i wasn't looking for max spl measurements...just wanted to see the uncorrected frequency response in 2pi space.

thanks for the explanation on the surround material.

I assume you found it on my forum (http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=1945927#1) as I described above, but here is it again in this thread. Again, this is an arbitrary level below any limiting. This graph shows the resolution of the measurements without additional smoothing, which is why we see the ripple and jaggedness in the response due to some non-ideal environmental influences. I've tested this a few times in different locations and the same shape response is consistent within expected measurement variances.

http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/SubMersive_1m_response.jpg

is that the response of the drivers and the enclosure only, or is there eq from the amp included?

is that the response of the drivers and the enclosure only, or is there eq from the amp included?

That is the response you get when you plug the XLR into the amplifier and run a sweep on the subwoofer outdoors ground plane. In other words that is the out of box or plug-n-play response.

Hi Mark.

Question, if you used a Terraform XL for everything below 25-20hz with no high pass filter(or tune it really low. Not sure if this makes sense) and then a submersive or two for everything above that, would that work better than just multiple Terraforms or Submersives? Basically I'm wondering if you'd get more LF extension that way.

That is the response you get when you plug the XLR into the amplifier and run a sweep on the subwoofer outdoors ground plane. In other words that is the out of box or plug-n-play response.

what i was wondering is if the amp has its own eq built in. many plate amps have some sort of built in eq, so the system response is not the same as the driver/enclosure response.

the frequency response of the submerssive in 2pi space looks to be a pretty good match for most folks in most rooms. i was wondering if that is the result of the drivers/enclosure or if you have eq'd it to be that shape.

I'm not sure what kind of eq the amp has built in, but I know that mark has left plenty of headroom to add some low end eq externally if your room needs it.

what i was wondering is if the amp has its own eq built in. many plate amps have some sort of built in eq, so the system response is not the same as the driver/enclosure response.

the frequency response of the submerssive in 2pi space looks to be a pretty good match for most folks in most rooms. i was wondering if that is the result of the drivers/enclosure or if you have eq'd it to be that shape.

My understanding is that there is some internal (non user programmable) EQ in the SubMersives, as well as limiter functions.

what i was wondering is if the amp has its own eq built in. many plate amps have some sort of built in eq, so the system response is not the same as the driver/enclosure response.

the frequency response of the submerssive in 2pi space looks to be a pretty good match for most folks in most rooms. i was wondering if that is the result of the drivers/enclosure or if you have eq'd it to be that shape.

The amp has a full DSP on the frontend (non user adjustable) that allows Mark all kinds of fun and response gymnastics. Way more than the analog EQ and limiting circuits typically available in relatively low cost plate amps. Lets just say it's a super nice plate amp :D :cool:

guys, thanks for the replies. i am not making any claims about headroom, efficiency, or anything. i was simply curious what eq may be employed in the amp, maybe that is how i should have framed the question.

i am quite sure that mark has considered the effects you guys mentioned and based on subjective reports, nobody has had any problems. i wouldn't worry about any of those issues as a buyer.

i'm just curious about the question that i asked originally. it is more of a scientific curiousity than anything else. i'm not comparing the submerssive against any other sub nor am i trying to establish some sort of stawman to attack later.

the frequency response just looks a little peculiar to me for a pair of 15"s in a sub of its size even with some stuffing. i can't say why other than the rolloff doesn't seem quite right. it's more of an intuition than anything else. maybe i have just been staring at too many plots lately. ;-) this is what inspired my question.

... the frequency response just looks a little peculiar to me for a pair of 15"s in a sub of its size even with some stuffing. i can't say why other than the rolloff doesn't seem quite right. it's more of an intuition than anything else. maybe i have just been staring at too many plots lately. ;-) this is what inspired my question.
With the little I know, I think both m-fine416 and zamboniman independently and accurately answered your question in-to-to.

Having said that, what would you consider "quite right?" Can you give/help with an example plot of a dual 15"s that you'd consider right?

That is the response you get when you plug the XLR into the amplifier and run a sweep on the subwoofer outdoors ground plane. In other words that is the out of box or plug-n-play response.
Mark, just curious, when you measure the groundplane response, do you aim one driver at the mic, with the other driver on the side away from the mic, or do you turn it so both drivers are perpendicular to the mic? Does this even make any difference? Thanks.

Craig

I always thought that rubber was the gold standard with regard to surrounds?

I always thought that rubber was the gold standard with regard to surrounds?

There are a few different materials used for surrounds for different reasons. Generally santoprene is what is used on most woofers with a few other different rubber-like materials or close derivatives. Most of the benefits are perceived and in people's minds from the foams used on drivers long ago which rotted out.

The choice of surround material also depends on the supplier, their production setup, what parts are available, and even parameters of the surround. It takes a bit more work to keep a large excursion santoprene surround well behaved and soft vs. a foam surround, so you tend to have more options in foam.

If you haven't read between the lines yet, I'm not very particular to either one, so long as they are well made, behave as I need and are sufficiently durable. There are many more important details of a driver to spend time and money on resulting in very tangible benefits.

Mark, just curious, when you measure the groundplane response, do you aim one driver at the mic, with the other driver on the side away from the mic, or do you turn it so both drivers are perpendicular to the mic? Does this even make any difference? Thanks.

Craig

I measure equidistant from the drivers with the woofers on the side as you look at the box from the microphone. As you get further away, there is no significant difference. At closer distances the frequency where you see a difference comes down in frequency and can have some effect. In a real room the total radiated power and the location of the drivers in the room is of much more concern than the near field differences at higher frequencies.

guys, thanks for the replies. i am not making any claims about headroom, efficiency, or anything. i was simply curious what eq may be employed in the amp, maybe that is how i should have framed the question.

i am quite sure that mark has considered the effects you guys mentioned and based on subjective reports, nobody has had any problems. i wouldn't worry about any of those issues as a buyer.

i'm just curious about the question that i asked originally. it is more of a scientific curiousity than anything else. i'm not comparing the submerssive against any other sub nor am i trying to establish some sort of stawman to attack later.

the frequency response just looks a little peculiar to me for a pair of 15"s in a sub of its size even with some stuffing. i can't say why other than the rolloff doesn't seem quite right. it's more of an intuition than anything else. maybe i have just been staring at too many plots lately. ;-) this is what inspired my question.

If you look at what I've described in various posts as to the capabilities of the SubMersive with a little knowledge of how a sealed subwoofer functions, it should be clear that the response is electronically corrected. The amplifier I use has OEM programmable DSP which is akin to more advanced loudspeaker processors. The only thing which doesn't "look right" is that while possible, it would be the rare driver which had a low enough Fb in this size enclosure while also having relatively low Q. The response of the SubMersive does track a 2nd order function to below 10Hz which is only seen in a few others on the market and often with less output per enclosure.

If you look at what I've described in various posts as to the capabilities of the SubMersive with a little knowledge of how a sealed subwoofer functions, it should be clear that the response is electronically corrected. The amplifier I use has OEM programmable DSP which is akin to more advanced loudspeaker processors. The only thing which doesn't "look right" is that while possible, it would be the rare driver which had a low enough Fb in this size enclosure while also having relatively low Q. The response of the SubMersive does track a 2nd order function to below 10Hz which is only seen in a few others on the market and often with output per enclosure.

thanks for the info.

as i mentioned before, the rolloff looks like it would match well to most rooms. nice work.

Here are two less excuses that the wife can use for getting a Submersive. They are now available in two additional finishes and they look great.

You can view more pix here
(http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3597632)http://esgppw.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pguoZlB4CsS6ZbuwUKDthNwMgEexxfCrWpPEY-Dvy63VEjJmH1FY_qCM3pc4aIcBsS1aKugoKbVLsBadh9jYzsVND-RR7qErP/Cherry-R-Esp-Blk-SM1-10.jpg

No doubt. Those look very nice indeed.

These look quite elegant; thanks for sharing Itai, and very well done Mark.

duwdu

Today I decided to join the Sumbersive club, I ordered a Red Cherry one today( like the one that is the furthest left in the pic above.) I should have it inside a few weeks.

I am excited. :D:D:p:D

Though I am probably more critical that most guys as far as bass goes, my standards are very high. I hope the Submersive passes my expectations.;)

Then in a thread at his forum showing the new Submersive colors Mark had to go and say... "Anyone else think Catalysts would look pretty sweet in either of those 2 cherry stains?"
I just know that if the Submersive really blows my expectations out of the water I am just gonna have to have some of his speakers and the Catalysts are ones that would work in my room.

Though I am probably more critical that most guys as far as bass goes, my standards are very high. I hope the Submersive passes my expectations.;)

If the MFW was enough to satisfy you, I am sure the Submersive will exceed your expectation.

Enjoy your new sub, those new finishes will certainly attract a wider demographic.

Judging from the photos, the on these subs looks like actual stained hardwood, as opposed to a veneer.

If the MFW was enough to satisfy you, I am sure the Submersive will exceed your expectation.


I would not go that far, the MFW certainly can satisfy me in many scenarios but it is not 100% satisfaction. Id say the MFW is about 75% there. But given the pricing of the MFW ( I paid $599 , shipped) a 75% on my standards is pretty darn impressive.

Now given the Submersive's pricing I am going to have to expect 100% and not a single percent less. :)

But I am hoping for 110%-120% from the Submersive :D

I would not go that far, the MFW certainly can satisfy me in many scenarios but it is not 100% satisfaction. Id say the MFW is about 75% there. But given the pricing of the MFW ( I paid $599 , shipped) a 75% on my standards is pretty darn impressive.

Now given the Submersive's pricing I am going to have to expect 100% and not a single percent less. :)

I said "satisfy", not "fulfill". :)

I said "satisfy", not "fulfill". :)

Satisfy=Fulfill

Go get your dictionary and look up the word satisfy.

sat⋅is⋅fy  [sat-is-fahy]

To fulfill the desires, expectations, needs, or demands of (a person, the mind, etc.); give full contentment to: The hearty bass satisfied him.
:p;):D

Satisfy=Fulfill

Go get your dictionary and look up the word satisfy.

sat⋅is⋅fy  [sat-is-fahy]

To fulfill the desires, expectations, needs, or demands of (a person, the mind, etc.); give full contentment to: The hearty bass satisfied him.
:p;):D

nice. :rolleyes:

That's great James. Those finishes look great. I am sure the red cherry will just fantastic in person.

Does anybody have their Submersive set up with a driver facing forward and the other facing the wall ? And has anybody experimented with different positions & what were the results ?

I think Mark said that it needs about 3" between the wall and the driver. When you have baseboards and molding it's really only a couple of inches.

Mark, if you don't mind me asking, how much excursion is available on the 15 inch woofer in the Submersive vs the MFW-15 ? Because I'm thinking of selling my other MFW-15 and I may decide to get a Submersive somewhere down the line. That is, if you sell internationally, of course. ;)

Regards,

Satisfy=Fulfill

Go get your dictionary and look up the word satisfy.

sat⋅is⋅fy  [sat-is-fahy]

To fulfill the desires, expectations, needs, or demands of (a person, the mind, etc.); give full contentment to: The hearty bass satisfied him.
:p;):D

Pie in my face I guess, but I am sure you knew what I meant. :cool:

Mark, if you don't mind me asking, how much excursion is available on the 15 inch woofer in the Submersive vs the MFW-15 ? Because I'm thinking of selling my other MFW-15 and I may decide to get a Submersive somewhere down the line. That is, if you sell internationally, of course. ;)

Regards,

The SubMersive driver shares very little with that of the MFW-15 (the cone and surround look and are similar, but not the same). The SubMersive driver uses a 3" VC on a 12 spoke cast basket with more linear and mechanical excursion capability with a much larger spider, venting under the spider, and in-box you really can't get the driver into any trouble apart from intentionally leaving a sine wave run for 10s of minutes below 15Hz in which case the voice coils start getting rather warm. ;)

The SMS-1 eq unit begins to roll off the base at 15 Hz, though one can vary the rate of fall-off. In room, the SubMersive can go well below 15 Hz, I believe, so how does one set the SMS-1 to allow this? TIA

Mark, thanks for answering my questions. Do you offer international shipping ?

I'm looking for a solution that would best my dual MFW-15's (well, not dual anymore) in clean output while digging deeper, hence me asking the question about linear excursion abilities.

I'm pretty sure you've mentioned on one or two occasions that a single Submersive would best dual MFW-15's but I could be wrong. Thanks again.

Regards,

Does anybody have their Submersive set up with a driver facing forward and the other facing the wall ? And has anybody experimented with different positions & what were the results ?

Yep. I have mine in the back corner of my room. One driver faces out into the room and the other faces the wall. I would say there is maybe 5in distance between the driver cover and the wall. I don't think there are any problems with setting it up that way.

The SMS-1 eq unit begins to roll off the base at 15 Hz, though one can vary the rate of fall-off. In room, the SubMersive can go well below 15 Hz, I believe, so how does one set the SMS-1 to allow this? TIA

In case you haven't been aware of the updated software for the SMS-1, here are some measurement graphs... The new software corrected the hard rolloff...

AVTALK has tested the new software: it works!

before:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a330/superribbit/charts/05HzSSFilter.png

After
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a330/superribbit/charts/05HzSSFilter1.png

looks like it's flat to 10hz f3

Thanks, Warpdrv--this was also pointed out to me in the Velodyne thread, i.e., that the latest FW goes down much deeper.

Glad to help, I still have my SMS in place after my D2v and before my DIY sub amps to boost the low end for my sealed subs... Its not the best or the perfect solution but its working fine for me....

Here are two less excuses that the wife can use for getting a Submersive. They are now available in two additional finishes and they look great.

You can view more pix here
(http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3597632)http://esgppw.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pguoZlB4CsS6ZbuwUKDthNwMgEexxfCrWpPEY-Dvy63VEjJmH1FY_qCM3pc4aIcBsS1aKugoKbVLsBadh9jYzsVND-RR7qErP/Cherry-R-Esp-Blk-SM1-10.jpg

The SubMersive driver shares very little with that of the MFW-15 (the cone and surround look and are similar, but not the same). The SubMersive driver uses a 3" VC on a 12 spoke cast basket with more linear and mechanical excursion capability with a much larger spider, venting under the spider, and in-box you really can't get the driver into any trouble apart from intentionally leaving a sine wave run for 10s of minutes below 15Hz in which case the voice coils start getting rather warm. ;)

Yeah, baby!

I'm about to be an eye-witness to the beauty side of Seaton's SubMersive as my black-oak is in transit! I've always been excited about the beast side... ;) and now this eye-candy is serious icing on the cake. One poster on the Seaton Sound site saw them in person yesterday and raved about their "furniture" quality. Awesome...

Cool details on the innards of the drivers, Mark. That explains how SubMersive owners consistently rave about the jaw-dropping performance!

Mark, you have really out-done yourself!!! Can't wait to bore you all with my details later next week after the FedEx man brings me my birthday present way early. :D

that cherry is.........daaaaaaayyyaaaammmmmn. just stunning.

The SubMersive driver shares very little with that of the MFW-15 (the cone and surround look and are similar, but not the same). The SubMersive driver uses a 3" VC on a 12 spoke cast basket with more linear and mechanical excursion capability with a much larger spider, venting under the spider, and in-box you really can't get the driver into any trouble apart from intentionally leaving a sine wave run for 10s of minutes below 15Hz in which case the voice coils start getting rather warm. ;)

Does the basket look like the Lab 12 (http://www.amazon.com/Eminence-LAB12-LAB-12-Subwoofer/dp/B0009H9PKK) from Eminence ? That is who makes your drivers , no ?

I sure hope the Submersive surprises me, yeah yeah, read all the praise on the Submersive and its pretty obvious I am gonna like it.
Nope. All the praises are nice but all they do is help the odds out to some degree. At the end of the day, what anybody says about the Submersive is 100% meaningless because when it comes down to it the only one who can save the Subersive from a hard core and down right cruel James W. Johnson review is the Submersive itself. :p;)
I have closed down a few HT gear threads on the past, we will find out soon enough. ;)

Glad to help, I still have my SMS in place after my D2v and before my DIY sub amps to boost the low end for my sealed subs... Its not the best or the perfect solution but its working fine for me....

Thanks much for the pics of the performance of the SMS with the latest FW; I've also seen this on the Velodyne website.

So, with a Submersive, do you recommend setting the subsonic filter at 5 Hz? The slope of the falloff doesn't seem to matter so much, correct? (FWIW, my room is ~ 2000 cu ft.)

daaaaaaayyyaaaammmmmn.

Watch your language son.
















:p

Yeah, baby!

I'm about to be an eye-witness to the beauty side of Seaton's SubMersive as my black-oak is in transit! I've always been excited about the beast side... ;) and now this eye-candy is serious icing on the cake. One poster on the Seaton Sound site saw them in person yesterday and raved about their "furniture" quality. Awesome...

Cool details on the innards of the drivers, Mark. That explains how SubMersive owners consistently rave about the jaw-dropping performance!

Mark, you have really out-done yourself!!! Can't wait to bore you all with my details later next week after the FedEx man brings me my birthday present way early. :D


I love the fact that from what I see, Mark went with magnetic grills...

Great work Mark.... Things are really coming along nicely...

Mark,

It may be down to set up issues although Im not convinced I have just changed from a PC ultra to a PB ultra and while it sounds really good with movies its not all that with music.

I still keep thinking whether a sealed option would be easier to set up in the room. No matter where I put the PB ultra it just didn't sound that good when I was playing music.

I keep reading that the submersive goes down below 15hz in most rooms so I wonder if this is my better option.

Any advice would be appreciated as I live in the UK and wouldn't be able to listen to it prior to buying it.

cheers graham

Thanks much for the pics of the performance of the SMS with the latest FW; I've also seen this on the Velodyne website.

So, with a Submersive, do you recommend setting the subsonic filter at 5 Hz? The slope of the falloff doesn't seem to matter so much, correct? (FWIW, my room is ~ 2000 cu ft.)


Yeah, just drop that subsonic filter down to the lowest point and you won't need to worry about slope, with your small room, the submersive will be doing its own thing for rolloff while utilizing probably some really nice low end room gain.

If you are really pushing things and start to stress out the Submersive, you can start by raising the subsonic slowly, but IMO the pressure you will have in that small room with this sub will start to become intolerable before you ever get to the point of stressing it out... If I missed something I'm sure Mark can fill in the gaps for you...

My F112 in the 1700^3 room can produce overwhelming results for me, where its just too much - so I doubt you'll ever come close to overdriving dual 15" drivers :D

Hi every body.....I was planing to buy 2 Seaton submersive but the value of the canadian $$$ is si poorless....So I already have a Paradigm servo 15 v2,can I mix it with one Submersive......because I realy want to try dual subwoofer...but the $$$$.

Canadian dollar is almost on par with American. This is the best time to buy a Submersive.

1 Canadian dollar = 0.936417 US dollar , if you look at the last 15 years the Canadian dollar is pretty strong if you look back a year or so then it might seem weak as for a second or 2 the Canadian dollar was within a cent of the US dollar.

1 Canadian dollar = 0.936417 US dollar , if you look at the last 15 years the Canadian dollar is pretty strong if you look back a year or so then it might seem weak as for a second or 2 the Canadian dollar was within a cent of the US dollar.

Maybe you missed those couple months where the Cdn dollar was worth 10cents more than the USD...actually over 10cents more.

Maybe you missed those couple months where the Cdn dollar was worth 10cents more than the USD...actually over 10cents more.

Good months - that's when I immigrated here from Canada.

Hi everyone

Is this true?

if you add any EQ to the SUBmersive to make it flatter in frequency response, that top end output advantage will disappear.

I mention this because the SUBmersive does not have a flat frequency response out of the box. This is part of what doesn't get mentioned online.

It also does not have anything in regards to controls like crossover control, phase switch, RCA inputs, etc. It does not have an auto-on switch either, so you either have to leave it on all of the time or keep turning it on and off.

The SUBmersive is not as user-friendly as most subwoofers due to its limitations in regards to hook-up and frequency response

Hi everyone

Is this true?

if you add any EQ to the SUBmersive to make it flatter in frequency response, that top end output advantage will disappear.

I mention this because the SUBmersive does not have a flat frequency response out of the box. This is part of what doesn't get mentioned online.

I believe you have either misunderstood or have incorrect information. It is +/-3dB from 19-200Hz as measured outdoors. Many talk about the in-room extension which is typically useful to 8-15Hz, depending on the room.

The upper octave dynamic capabilities don't change with EQ, only the level you start from. The capability is still there.


It also does not have anything in regards to controls like crossover control, phase switch, RCA inputs, etc. It does not have an auto-on switch either, so you either have to leave it on all of the time or keep turning it on and off.

The SUBmersive is not as user-friendly as most subwoofers due to its limitations in regards to hook-up and frequency response

In this case, less is more. Most of these controls are available similarly in your receiver or surround pre-amp. If you need more adjustment, you really should be adding an outboard solution. Modern multi-channel systems really have little need for the adjustments you mention on a subwoofer, particularly systems likely to add a subwoofer of this level.

Hi everyone

Is this true?

if you add any EQ to the SUBmersive to make it flatter in frequency response, that top end output advantage will disappear.

I mention this because the SUBmersive does not have a flat frequency response out of the box. This is part of what doesn't get mentioned online.

It also does not have anything in regards to controls like crossover control, phase switch, RCA inputs, etc. It does not have an auto-on switch either, so you either have to leave it on all of the time or keep turning it on and off.

The SUBmersive is not as user-friendly as most subwoofers due to its limitations in regards to hook-up and frequency response

XLR to RCA input I think mark includes these days but its a $5.00 part at guitar center or the likes

On/Off switch with the type of amp mark uses, it really does not draw much power at idle, I cant remember what the wattage is but its really low and a lot less than what I have heard even some in standby draw.

Mark Recommends some sort of eq between the processor and the sub. Something like the QSC DSP-30 or DSP-4, or Berrenger 1292 or something of the likes. This allows the end user much more conrol over very many points for room eq.

I dont know where you came up with the first statement about adding eq killing the output but...... This thing in room with EQ has very very serious output.

It does not have a flat frequency response(2m GP or something), but is designed to work well / flat inroom response, this is where it matters not testing in a lab.

It does not have an auto-on switch either, so you either have to leave it on all of the time or keep turning it on and off.





Hey all , is it ok to leave the Submersive on all the time ? I did not know it did not have an auto on switch.

Oh and what are you guys crossing the Submersive at? I hope its good to 120hz or so.

I cross mine at 80 but its flat to 200 Hz so selecting some freq above 120 is possible but you are going to suffer from localization if you go too high....

Sean

I cross mine at 80 but its flat to 200 Hz so selecting some freq above 120 is possible but you are going to suffer from localization if you go too high....

Sean

I don't think so. It is only the signal in the LFE channel that is affected by the high pass filter for the sub. The x-over in your AVR, presumably set to 80 Hz, sends all the > 80 Hz signal from the satellites to them, not the sub. But setting the high pass filter of the sub to 80 Hz, you are simply cutting out the > 80 Hz signal that is in the LFE channel. (But since there is usually little signal in the LFE channel > 80 Hz, it probably doesn't make much difference.)

Maybe you missed those couple months where the Cdn dollar was worth 10cents more than the USD...actually over 10cents more.


Wanna bet? The Canadian dollar was +10 cents for less than 2 days. But yes it was stronger for a few months, most of it was around + 4-5 cents.

I cross mine at 80 but its flat to 200 Hz so selecting some freq above 120 is possible but you are going to suffer from localization if you go too high....

Sean

It does not matter because my subwoofer is next to my mains, a higher crossover gets me a smoother transition between my mains and subwoofer.

Oh and what are you guys crossing the Submersive at? I hope its good to 120hz or so.

It idles at a fraction of the power the MFW-15 and some other amps do even when some others are in "standby." If you prefer to conserve electricity, many standby modes still draw significant power. If you use a switched outlet or similar, you can have it switched off for certain with zero power draw.

I don't think so. It is only the signal in the LFE channel that is affected by the high pass filter for the sub. The x-over in your AVR, presumably set to 80 Hz, sends all the > 80 Hz signal from the satellites to them, not the sub. But setting the high pass filter of the sub to 80 Hz, you are simply cutting out the > 80 Hz signal that is in the LFE channel. (But since there is usually little signal in the LFE channel > 80 Hz, it probably doesn't make much difference.)

James's question about the crossover was more general and referring to what you set the crossover at between your main speakers and subwoofer in your receiver or processor. Some allow different settings for different speakers, some only have a global setting applied to all speakers, and some don't allow adjustment of this other than "large" or "small."

As you cross to main speakers higher in frequency, in-room response becomes more critical, especially as this range can be highly variable due to room modes. If the response is kept reasonably flat through placement and/or EQ, you can most certainly cross over a SubMersive in the 120Hz range, which I have done in a few systems using M&K S-150s and other very compact or bass limited main speakers. Many other subwoofers capable of the deep extension suffer considerable compression in the upper octave when driven hard or modulated by low frequency content. The SubMersive's design and headroom allow it to do a much better job covering such a wide bandwidth.

This was by design and allows you to heavily lean on the SubMersive to allow very compact speakers to sound much bigger and more impressive.

Mark,

E-mail sent.

Craig

James's question about the crossover was more general and referring to what you set the crossover at between your main speakers and subwoofer in your receiver or processor. Some allow different settings for different speakers, some only have a global setting applied to all speakers, and some don't allow adjustment of this other than "large" or "small."

As you cross to main speakers higher in frequency, in-room response becomes more critical, especially as this range can be highly variable due to room modes. If the response is kept reasonably flat through placement and/or EQ, you can most certainly cross over a SubMersive in the 120Hz range, which I have done in a few systems using M&K S-150s and other very compact or bass limited main speakers. Many other subwoofers capable of the deep extension suffer considerable compression in the upper octave when driven hard or modulated by low frequency content. The SubMersive's design and headroom allow it to do a much better job covering such a wide bandwidth.

This was by design and allows you to heavily lean on the SubMersive to allow very compact speakers to sound much bigger and more impressive.

Thanks, Mark; yes, I certainly understand your comments here about where to cross the 'mains' with the Sub. I thought he was asking about the 'high pass filter' for the LFE channel (sometimes, incorrectly I think, referred to an a x-over for the sub); THX recommends 80 Hz for it (as well as for the regular x--over between the mains and the sub), but many (esp the Audyssey people) recommend setting this high pass filter on the LFE channel much higher, so as not to miss any signal in that channel (since it will not appear in the mains). But since there is usually no, or little, signal > 80 Hz in the LFE channel, this point may be moot. (The SMS-1 allows one simply to turn it off.)

Thanks, Mark; yes, I certainly understand your comments here about where to cross the 'mains' with the Sub. I thought he was asking about the 'high pass filter' for the LFE channel (sometimes, incorrectly I think, referred to an a x-over for the sub); THX recommends 80 Hz for it (as well as for the regular x--over between the mains and the sub), but many (esp the Audyssey people) recommend setting this high pass filter on the LFE channel much higher, so as not to miss any signal in that channel (since it will not appear in the mains). But since there is usually no, or little, signal > 80 Hz in the LFE channel, this point may be moot. (The SMS-1 allows one simply to turn it off.)

I follow now. You were referring to the low pass for the LFE channel. Some processors now allow this to be set independently, and some just leave a low pass on the input to the subwoofer. Leaving this on the input to the subwoofer can work fine, but you have to integrate the speakers with the low pass in the loop as it affects all bass signals coming in.

From what I've read, in most mixing situations they assume the LFE channel will be played back with an 80Hz low pass on it and this is what many processors do. There are some who will get quite riled up over the difference, but it's really quite small in the grand scheme. When separately available for setting, I typically start with the LFE channel crossover at 80Hz.

Thanks for the tips, Mark.

BTW, my SubMersive is 'on FedEx vehicle for delivery' later today, so I will cutting out at noon to relieve my wife of waiting to sign for it. Only problem now is to get this monster from the entry way to the back room. Hopefully the box will slide well on the rugs, or else I'll have to get my son-in-law to come over and help!

have fun.... two people can move it around just fine.....

Sean

Thanks for the tips, Mark.

BTW, my SubMersive is 'on FedEx vehicle for delivery' later today, so I will cutting out at noon to relieve my wife of waiting to sign for it. Only problem now is to get this monster from the entry way to the back room. Hopefully the box will slide well on the rugs, or else I'll have to get my son-in-law to come over and help!

congrats! and im enjoying every second of my svs!

thanks again

Thanks, Mark; yes, I certainly understand your comments here about where to cross the 'mains' with the Sub. I thought he was asking about the 'high pass filter' for the LFE channel (sometimes, incorrectly I think, referred to an a x-over for the sub); THX recommends 80 Hz for it (as well as for the regular x--over between the mains and the sub), but many (esp the Audyssey people) recommend setting this high pass filter on the LFE channel much higher, so as not to miss any signal in that channel (since it will not appear in the mains). But since there is usually no, or little, signal > 80 Hz in the LFE channel, this point may be moot. (The SMS-1 allows one simply to turn it off.)

This LPF (low pass filter) available in some AVR and pre/pro sets is fascinating to me considering the Audyssey people all push for setting it as high as possible. My own experience was that there were several recent movies that have brief, but very noticeable LFE content between 80hz-120hz.

For example, Iron Man has a scene toward the end of the movie when IM is using his thrusters as he asends to the upper atmosphere and with the LPF set at 120hz there were some really crappy and highly locatable sounds in the LFE. During that scene my head snapped over to my front right corner and it totally dissolved the suspension of disbelief that is so enjoyable in a movie. So, afterward I did some testing--turning my sub (SVS PB13 Ultra) off first and running only the mains where the sound disappeared, and then I ran just the sub without the mains and heard the offending noise clearly. So, then I changed the LPF down to 80hz and no crappy sound.

Due to this I just set the LPF down at 80hz and tried not to worry about what LFE I was missing. However, it will be fascinating to hear the same scene with the SubMersive (arriving Thursday!!! :D)...

This LPF (low pass filter) available in some AVR and pre/pro sets is fascinating to me considering the Audyssey people all push for setting it as high as possible. My own experience was that there were several recent movies that have brief, but very noticeable LFE content between 80hz-120hz.

For example, Iron Man has a scene toward the end of the movie when IM is using his thrusters as he asends to the upper atmosphere and with the LPF set at 120hz there were some really crappy and highly locatable sounds in the LFE. During that scene my head snapped over to my front right corner and it totally dissolved the suspension of disbelief that is so enjoyable in a movie. So, afterward I did some testing--turning my sub (SVS PB13 Ultra) off first and running only the mains where the sound disappeared, and then I ran just the sub without the mains and heard the offending noise clearly. So, then I changed the LPF down to 80hz and no crappy sound.

Due to this I just set the LPF down at 80hz and tried not to worry about what LFE I was missing. However, it will be fascinating to hear the same scene with the SubMersive (arriving Thursday!!! :D)...

Very interesting! Keep us posted on your experiences wrt this.

Thanks for the tips, Mark.

BTW, my SubMersive is 'on FedEx vehicle for delivery' later today, so I will cutting out at noon to relieve my wife of waiting to sign for it. Only problem now is to get this monster from the entry way to the back room. Hopefully the box will slide well on the rugs, or else I'll have to get my son-in-law to come over and help!

I put four casters on each of my two SubMersives.

Carl

have fun.... two people can move it around just fine.....

Sean

I moved mine by myself with kids taunting me. It is really not bad as long as you don't have to go up a bunch of stairs.

I put four casters on each of my two SubMersives.

Carl

I talked the FedEx guy into helping me carry it up our entryway stairs, to the 'threshold'. Then I was able to push it down the hallway to the back room that serves at the HT. Quite a workout, but it went fine.

The way it was packed, with the feet up, was very carefully thought out. After opening top of the box, I tipped it over on its side (the one withOUT the amp controls) and then slide it out, and tipped it up on its feet; very easy.

I then put in a SMS-1 (that I'm just learning to use), and moved the Sub into the various possible locations, using the SMS to see which one gave the smoothest freq response; very helpful for this. But boy, is it another workout moving the SubMersive around!

But boy, is it another workout moving the SubMersive around!

Just be glad you didn't order a pair of Terraform XL's

I moved mine by myself with kids taunting me. It is really not bad as long as you don't have to go up a bunch of stairs.

Mark just pushed, more like rolled, the box up my stairs to my room. It did not seem that bad. Although, all I did was stand there and watch:D.

What is the Submersive's weight again ? You want heavy, get an ED A7-900 which is 395lbs. :) Heavy is usually a good sign when it comes to subwoofers.

Though I am pretty sure that baltic birch plywood is stronger than MDF and so an MDF box will weigh more than a baltic birch box of the same quality.

What is the Submersive's weight again ? You want heavy, get an ED A7-900 which is 395lbs. :) Heavy is usually a good sign when it comes to subwoofers.

Though I am pretty sure that baltic birch plywood is stronger than MDF and so an MDF box will weigh more than a baltic birch box of the same quality.

The veneered boxes are in fact MDF core. The SubMersive was originally designed with enough bracing to have no issue in constructing it with MDF. With the opposed mounting of the 15" drivers weight of the enclosure no longer has any benefit other than increasing the shipping cost. The enclosure simply needs to be rigid enough. With the narrow dimensions across the drivers, 2 full shelf braces parallel to the baffles and fully interlocking joints (dadoes, miter folding and lock miters are used) the box is entirely inert in operation as we have had fun demonstrating on a few occasions. At the last meet in Michigan I had a dime balanced on edge on top of the SubMersive through a few demo scenes. It didn't move through the demos, but a quick pat on top of the sub 6" away made it fall over after the demos were done. :cool:

I once had the displeasure of helping get a Krell MRS subwoofer into a basement theater. Sometimes you do need a very heavy enclosure, but weight for the sake of weight is just wasteful and inefficient in money and hassle unless there are tangible benefits.

... the box is entirely inert in operation as we have had fun demonstrating on a few occasions. At the last meet in Michigan I had a dime balanced on edge on top of the SubMersive through a few demo scenes. It didn't move through the demos, but a quick pat on top of the sub 6" away made it fall over after the demos were done. :cool:



That is pretty cool though I almost find that hard to believe, what kind of SPLs did you use for the demo, I am guessing pretty low.

I will run that same test on my Submersive when I get it.

I'd bet the SPL was not low. The reason the trick works is due to the opposing drivers. Each driver is providing an equal, but opposite force causing the net force on the box to be zero. The vibration of the box is almost non-existent.

I'd bet the SPL was not low. The reason the trick works is due to the opposing drivers. Each driver is providing an equal, but opposite force causing the net force on the box to be zero. The vibration of the box is almost non-existent.


That is pretty cool, I will look forward to seeing this on my Submersive.
Although I still find it hard to believe the box does not vibrate just a teeny tiny bit.

That is pretty cool though I almost find that hard to believe, what kind of SPLs did you use for the demo, I am guessing pretty low.

I will run that same test on my Submersive when I get it.

It was LOUD

at the chicago GTG at zambonimans place, we ran the demo of the pod scene from WOW, AT REFERENCE, we got done and everyone was very very impressed, not till I pointed out did anyone realize that the DVD player was sitting on top of the sub:eek:

That is pretty cool, I will look forward to seeing this on my Submersive.
Although I still find it hard to believe the box does not vibrate just a teeny tiny bit.

The hardest part was getting the dime to balance on edge in the first place. A nickle is easy. :cool:

In most rooms the top of the SubMersive is the most stable place in the room. :eek:

It's a matter of working smarter, not harder.

That is pretty cool, I will look forward to seeing this on my Submersive.
Although I still find it hard to believe the box does not vibrate just a teeny tiny bit.

I did it with a nickel. I put the RS meter next to it (on top of the sub) and then cranked Legion of boom until the needle was pegged. The sub is pretty much inert.

So does that mean the Submersive can double as an end table?:cool: I'm just thinking out loud ... not only VLF but also a place to keep my cocktail while watching a film or listening to music!

So does that mean the Submersive can double as an end table?

That's what my new one is doing.

So does that mean the Submersive can double as an end table?:cool: I'm just thinking out loud ... not only VLF but also a place to keep my cocktail while watching a film or listening to music!

With very nice looking veneers I'm giving this more thought, and going to look into having a piece of maybe 3/8-1/2" glass cut and ends polished to fit the top of the SubMersive and overhang the grills to make this use that much easier.

With very nice looking veneers I'm giving this more thought, and going to look into having a piece of maybe 3/8-1/2" glass cut and ends polished to fit the top of the SubMersive and overhang the grills to make this use that much easier.


With your logo acid-etched into the glass? ;)

That is pretty cool, I will look forward to seeing this on my Submersive.
Although I still find it hard to believe the box does not vibrate just a teeny tiny bit.

It doesn't move or vibrate its just dead. I have done this with WOTW and Pulse and ridiculous levels and the nickel does not move...

you'll see when yours arrives....

Sean

So does that mean the Submersive can double as an end table?:cool: I'm just thinking out loud ... not only VLF but also a place to keep my cocktail while watching a film or listening to music!

absolutely.... you could put pictures and beverages on top of it and they wont move from the bass... would want to spill a beverage and get it on the AMP and the drivers though.....

EDIT: The Glass top endtable idea with built in cup holders would be a cool option :)

Sean

With very nice looking veneers I'm giving this more thought, and going to look into having a piece of maybe 3/8-1/2" glass cut and ends polished to fit the top of the SubMersive and overhang the grills to make this use that much easier.
Mark, it's just getting better and better! I'm looking forward to joining the ownership group, hopefully sooner rather than later.

I am holding out for the Sandbagger Signature Edition Terraform XL that has a mirror top with a brass pole in the center.

^^^

You're a sick puppy ... but I like it;)

^^^

You're a sick puppy ... but I like it;)

I am holding out for the Sandbagger Signature Edition Terraform XL that has a mirror top with a brass pole in the center.

The scarry thing is..... I have talked to mark about it already:eek:

That's what my new one is doing.

When did you pick yours up, Will? :confused:

oops, just realized i missed a full page worth of threads,

The scarry thing is..... I have talked to mark about it already:eek:

I can't say I have one on the subwoofer but we did build a stage and install one in my detached garage for a friends bachelor party (ahem Bible Study) last november... The entertainers were impressed and actually tried to purchase said equipment from us at the end of the night. My friend Mac, who Seaton knows was too proud of his creation to part with it though....

and believe it or not you can buy such items from amazon.com simply by searching on stripper pole....

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=stripper+pole&x=0&y=0

certainly not submersive or professional quality but it got the job done......


and YES I am bored at work today. tons of code to write but my mind is elsewhere.... Phish takes the stage here in about 5 hours.... should be mind blowing...

Sorry back to your regular scheduled programming...

Sean

With very nice looking veneers I'm giving this more thought, and going to look into having a piece of maybe 3/8-1/2" glass cut and ends polished to fit the top of the SubMersive and overhang the grills to make this use that much easier.

Stop it Mark!! These kind of comments are going to make me poor!!! :p:p

and believe it or not you can buy such items from amazon.com simply by searching on stripper pole....


LOL, love the reviews. The advantage of the terraform mounted pole is it could be designed to have all of the vibrations the top of the SubMersive does not, thus making it more enjoyable for the person on the pole, which in turn should improve things for the audience.

LOL, love the reviews. The advantage of the terraform mounted pole is it could be designed to have all of the vibrations the top of the SubMersive does not, thus making it more enjoyable for the person on the pole, which in turn should improve things for the audience.

Ah, the things we do for the love of science ;-)

I am assuming the drivers are wired in phase with each other in the Submersive, what would the performance change be if this were not the case ? Are they wired reverse polarity?
I don't know all the tech stuff but id appreciate it if someone would explain the Submersive design a little bit. And what changes might a person get if they turned one driver around and made it a push pull design.




thanks

I am assuming the drivers are wired in phase with each other in the Submersive, what would the performance change be if this were not the case ? Are they wired reverse polarity?
I don't know all the tech stuff but id appreciate it if someone would explain the Submersive design a little bit. And what changes might a person get if they turned one driver around and made it a push pull design.




thanks
The Dime would not remain on it's edge. (The sub would dance)

Carl

I am assuming the drivers are wired in phase with each other in the Submersive, what would the performance change be if this were not the case ? Are they wired reverse polarity?
I don't know all the tech stuff but id appreciate it if someone would explain the Submersive design a little bit. And what changes might a person get if they turned one driver around and made it a push pull design.

thanks

The Dime would not remain on it's edge. (The sub would dance)

Carl

Exactly Carl.

In the rare case we have a wire or pin swapped in assembly, catching this is quite simple in the QC steps, as the VLF test tone makes the cabinet vibrate significantly vs. not at all.

So far as the design, the drivers are wired with the same polarity so both move out from the enclosure at the same time, and vice-versa. This is the same way you would wire 2 drivers if they were on the same face within a single, sealed enclosure. From an operational standpoint, you could consider the pair of 15s to be similar in function to a single ~21" driver, but we get the benefits of the force-canceling design and a more readily manufactureable driver.

Exactly Carl.

In the rare case we have a wire or pin swapped in assembly, catching this is quite simple in the QC steps, as the VLF test tone makes the cabinet vibrate significantly vs. not at all.

So far as the design, the drivers are wired with the same polarity so both move out from the enclosure at the same time, and vice-versa. This is the same way you would wire 2 drivers if they were on the same face within a single, sealed enclosure. From an operational standpoint, you could consider the pair of 15s to be similar in function to a single ~21" driver, but we get the benefits of the force-canceling design and a more readily manufactureable driver.
If they were wired so one was moving in while the other was moving out, wouldn't you also get almost complete cancellation of the soundwaves?

Craig

If they were wired so one was moving in while the other was moving out, wouldn't you also get almost complete cancellation of the soundwaves?

Craig

Correct, it would be a dipole with only ~24" front to back spacing, making for very little radiated bass.

Correct, it would be a dipole with only ~24" front to back spacing, making for very little radiated bass.

That would turn your Submersive into a giant buttshaker. Plenty of vibration with little radiated sound. :)

That would turn your Submersive into a giant buttshaker. Plenty of vibration with little radiated sound. :)

It's a fun ride though. :p

I remember doing one prototype with a big, heavy driver on the front and a big passive on the rear. At some frequencies I was able to get the feet to lift off a hard surface enough to see daylight underneath. Not hugely desirable, but certainly entertaining. :cool:

Last night was my second night with my new SubMersive. You long-time owners can understand how exciting this is!

The thing I esp noticed last night was that I could set the sub up considerably higher than was possible with my SVS PB10; not that the PB10 couldn't put out the volume (in my smallish room, 2100 cu ft), but that it was not pleasant to do so. E.g., with the RS SPL meter, I set the L/C/R speakers to 75 dB, and the surrounds at ~ 77. With the PB10 I also set the sub at ~ 75, otherwise it was too boomy and muddy. But I set the SubMersive up to ~ 80, and it is just so articulate and precise that it is easy on the ears, while at the same time being much more dynamic (that 'slam' that everyone talks about). Anyway, I know all of you know this, but it's new to me.

But I have one weird question for those of you that use a SMS-1 to eq. I've got it going and like the result very much. However I was wanting to program the SMS's remote onto my old (but still, for me, quite adequate) URC-100; I have done this for the Comcast cable remote, and that of the Oppo BD player, the Onk 805 AVR. But when trying to do this for the SMS, the only button that works is the 'power' button; the others--menu, volume, etc.--don't respond when I use the URC, even though the 'learning' steps were indicated to work. Is this in any way related to the power cord of the SMS? I.e., it's not a simple AC power cord to the SMS box, but has an adaptor in the line. Could this cause this problem? Thanks for any experience that any of you may have.

The Submersive is the most money I have ever laid down for a speaker of any sort in my home theater .
While I am excited , I am also a bit worried because my expectations are way high.

The Submersive has some stiff competition in terms of bang for buck , I currently have a MFW-15 which is without question the best subwoofer ive ever heard under a grand and it was only $600 shipped. Id give the MFW-15 a solid 90/100 based on how much bang for the buck it gives. I am pretty picky when it comes to bass so id bet that most folks would give the MFW-15 a 100/100 .

Ive got my fingers crossed that the Submersive will blow me away, because based on what it cost me its gonna have to blow me away or I am gonna be disapointed. :)

Last night was my second night with my new SubMersive. You long-time owners can understand how exciting this is!

The thing I esp noticed last night was that I could set the sub up considerably higher than was possible with my SVS PB10; not that the PB10 couldn't put out the volume (in my smallish room, 2100 cu ft), but that it was not pleasant to do so. E.g., with the RS SPL meter, I set the L/C/R speakers to 75 dB, and the surrounds at ~ 77. With the PB10 I also set the sub at ~ 75, otherwise it was too boomy and muddy. But I set the SubMersive up to ~ 80, and it is just so articulate and precise that it is easy on the ears, while at the same time being much more dynamic (that 'slam' that everyone talks about). Anyway, I know all of you know this, but it's new to me.

Hey Millerwill, thanks for the insights! I like the sound of your experience very much. I'm afraid I must be a bass-aholic because the Ultra (a great piece itself) wasn't enough for me (as per above it seemed to get too fat on music), so I'm excited to hear that for you the SubMersive is more "articulate and precise." The elusive "slam" you speak of gets me drooling!!!

Sorry I don't have any help on your SMS-1 question... but thanks again for the report.

FedEx is wandering around with my sub in their truck today. Hopefully they'll actually deliver it before night-fall. :rolleyes:

Hey Millerwill, thanks for the insights! I like the sound of your experience very much. I'm afraid I must be a bass-aholic because the Ultra (a great piece itself) wasn't enough for me (as per above it seemed to get too fat on music), so I'm excited to hear that for you the SubMersive is more "articulate and precise." The elusive "slam" you speak of gets me drooling!!!

Sorry I don't have any help on your SMS-1 question... but thanks again for the report.

FedEx is wandering around with my sub in their truck today. Hopefully they'll actually deliver it before night-fall. :rolleyes:

If you have any stairs involved, try to get the FedEx guy to help out!

The Submersive is the most money I have ever laid down for a speaker of any sort in my home theater .
While I am excited , I am also a bit worried because my expectations are way high.

The Submersive has some stiff competition in terms of bang for buck , I currently have a MFW-15 which is without question the best subwoofer ive ever heard under a grand and it was only $600 shipped. Id give the MFW-15 a solid 90/100 based on how much bang for the buck it gives. I am pretty picky when it comes to bass so id bet that most folks would give the MFW-15 a 100/100 .

Ive got my fingers crossed that the Submersive will blow me away, because based on what it cost me its gonna have to blow me away or I am gonna be disapointed. :)

James, You need to relax...:) I don't foresee you being disappointed.

I am holding out for the Sandbagger Signature Edition Terraform XL that has a mirror top with a brass pole in the center.

Seeing as Kevin likes Midget Strippers, You won't need a Seaton Terraform XL. A SubMersive with a ladies compact mirror top and broom handle should do the trick. :D

The Submersive is the most money I have ever laid down for a speaker of any sort in my home theater .
While I am excited , I am also a bit worried because my expectations are way high.

The Submersive has some stiff competition in terms of bang for buck , I currently have a MFW-15 which is without question the best subwoofer ive ever heard under a grand and it was only $600 shipped. Id give the MFW-15 a solid 90/100 based on how much bang for the buck it gives. I am pretty picky when it comes to bass so id bet that most folks would give the MFW-15 a 100/100 .

Ive got my fingers crossed that the Submersive will blow me away, because based on what it cost me its gonna have to blow me away or I am gonna be disapointed. :)

Well, the SubMersive cost me more than 4x what I bought my SVS PB10 for ~ 4 yrs ago. The PB10 was an incredible upgrade from an HIiB. Whether or not the SubMersive is more than 4x better than the PB10 is, of course, impossible to quantify; all I can say is that I am truly delighted with the present upgrade. Whether or not it's worth it to any individual probably depends most on how much disposable income is available.

If you have any stairs involved, try to get the FedEx guy to help out!

Good counsel--I've had the JL F113 and the SVS PB13 Ultra & PB12+/2 so I have some idea of heavy boxes! :D

At this point (trying to leave town), I'd catch the thing myself if they'd just slow down enough to toss it out to me! :D:rolleyes::p

The SMS-1 allows one to set the 'subsonic' cutoff as low as 5 Hz (with its new FW, lowest was 15 Hz with the old). With the SubMersive, what do people recommend for this setting? (Don't want to damage it!) At present I have the old FW, and the freq response in my room (~ 2000 cu ft) is flat all the way down to 15 Hz.

The Submersive is the most money I have ever laid down for a speaker of any sort in my home theater .
While I am excited , I am also a bit worried because my expectations are way high.

The Submersive has some stiff competition in terms of bang for buck , I currently have a MFW-15 which is without question the best subwoofer ive ever heard under a grand and it was only $600 shipped. Id give the MFW-15 a solid 90/100 based on how much bang for the buck it gives. I am pretty picky when it comes to bass so id bet that most folks would give the MFW-15 a 100/100 .

Ive got my fingers crossed that the Submersive will blow me away, because based on what it cost me its gonna have to blow me away or I am gonna be disapointed. :)

dont know about blow you away but its a big step in SQ from a pair of MFW's and has quite a bit more output as well. The other thing I love about the submersive is that when things do get a bit crazy it remains very composed and clean sounding. never any chuffing or mechanical noises from the driver, bottoming out, strange clipping noises... they just dont happen..... The lack of these artifacts was the first thing I noticed when replacing the pair of MFW's which replaced the HSU.

Sean

The SMS-1 allows one to set the 'subsonic' cutoff as low as 5 Hz (with its new FW, lowest was 15 Hz with the old). With the SubMersive, what do people recommend for this setting? (Don't want to damage it!) At present I have the old FW, and the freq response in my room (~ 2000 cu ft) is flat all the way down to 15 Hz.

I dont think you can really hurt the submersive.... a few of us and have pushed ours very hard with no luck and mark has the limiters dialed in very effectively.... glad your digging the sound so far....

Sean

The SMS-1 allows one to set the 'subsonic' cutoff as low as 5 Hz (with its new FW, lowest was 15 Hz with the old). With the SubMersive, what do people recommend for this setting? (Don't want to damage it!) At present I have the old FW, and the freq response in my room (~ 2000 cu ft) is flat all the way down to 15 Hz.
LOL, good luck damaging a SubMersive, I have abused mine for two years and it just laughs at me. The DSP in the amp, and the sealed design protect you from any over excursion issues. This ain't your gramma's ported toy sub. I think the only way to kill it is with very high level sine waves sustained for minutes (10's of minutes or hous?). At some point you could build up more heat than the drivers can disipate, but this is not going to happen on any program material, even crazy demo collections.

The HP should be off if possible, or set to the lowest setting you can select. A HP at 10 hz would be enough to put me in the market for another EQ. Using a HP filter on a SubMersive is like dragging a boat anchor behind your Ferrari. Don't be a pussy, step on the gas, it was built for the abuse!

The Submersive is the most money I have ever laid down for a speaker of any sort in my home theater .
While I am excited , I am also a bit worried because my expectations are way high.

The Submersive has some stiff competition in terms of bang for buck , I currently have a MFW-15 which is without question the best subwoofer ive ever heard under a grand and it was only $600 shipped. Id give the MFW-15 a solid 90/100 based on how much bang for the buck it gives. I am pretty picky when it comes to bass so id bet that most folks would give the MFW-15 a 100/100 .

Ive got my fingers crossed that the Submersive will blow me away, because based on what it cost me its gonna have to blow me away or I am gonna be disapointed. :)

James, You need to relax...:) I don't foresee you being disappointed.

+1

The MFW15 and Submersive are not even in the same league as far as output, build quality, driver quality, and customer service.

Seeing as Kevin likes Midget Strippers, You won't need a Seaton Terraform XL. A SubMersive with a ladies compact mirror top and broom handle should do the trick. :D

The SubMersive iss totally innert which is a plus for sound quality but a bit boring for a pole. Sometimes vibrations are a good thing ;)

As for the midgets, in my theater, ceiling height would probably limit me to the petit dancers say about 5'5" and under but I definitely want them taller than Kevin's.

The SMS-1 allows one to set the 'subsonic' cutoff as low as 5 Hz (with its new FW, lowest was 15 Hz with the old). With the SubMersive, what do people recommend for this setting? (Don't want to damage it!) At present I have the old FW, and the freq response in my room (~ 2000 cu ft) is flat all the way down to 15 Hz.
I am of the impression that, generally, sealed designs as with the SubmerSive, are much less prone to being wrongly affected or damaged by ¨subsonic¨ frequencies, to put it mildly. I believe the SubMersive in particular is essentially immune to damage by them. This, in addition to other smart engineering designs, in my understanding, is one reason why a HPF is not needed and is therefore not built into the SubMersive. Those more knowledgeable would correct me if I am wrong on this though.

When I come to set up my own submersives, I will not apply any HPF that can be disengaged on support equipment such as the SMS-1 ... I want to be able to enjoy the deepest extension at useable volume levels that I can get. :)

It is also my understanding that ported sub designs are particularly prone to driver damage by these¨subsonic¨ frequencies so much so that HPFs are a must-build-in with them and are most usually strictly recommended to be used always.

duwdu

LookS like I ned to stoop posting from m y iPhone!

Thanks, guys; I will set the SMS-1 to 5 Hz as soon as I do the FW upgrade.

dont know about blow you away but its a big step in SQ from a pair of MFW's and has quite a bit more output as well. The other thing I love about the submersive is that when things do get a bit crazy it remains very composed and clean sounding. never any chuffing or mechanical noises from the driver, bottoming out, strange clipping noises... they just dont happen..... The lack of these artifacts was the first thing I noticed when replacing the pair of MFW's which replaced the HSU.

Sean

Thanks Sean , that is saying alot. There is no question the MFWs have excellent SQ as well as decent output. And your saying the Submersive is better than a pair of em.
I am looking forward to getting the Submersive. Thanks for your input. :)

The MFW15 and Submersive are not even in the same league as far as output, build quality, driver quality, and customer service.

I won't argue the output, driver quality and customer service however the build quality is really quite good on the MFW , yet the Submersive's is better yet? :p
Damn , I am dang near getting excited now. :p

It is built solidly. As everyone had said, it is very inert. When you get it, you will see that for yourself. Even though I have the basic flat mat back finish, some one came into my room and said. that is a nice end table. Plus it has the SQ and output to boot.

Have a look at the following pic:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/8/1243953/SubMersive%20001.JPG

The "best" seat is the seat right next to the SubMersive on the three-seater sofa. If I want to do the subwoofer crawl test, is it worth moving the sofa out of the way and placing the SubMersive in the "best" seat position or can I perform the crawl test with the SubMersive in the current corner position since the "best" seat is already so close to the current position of the SubMersive?

When you say the "best" seat, is it the best seat for viewing, the best seat for listening or the current best seat for bass?

Moving the sub out of the corner will significantly change it's in-room response. If the "sweet spot" is the seat next to the sub, then that's were the sub should be placed for the crawl test. Place it *on* the seat, not on the floor where the seat would have been.

Do you have any ability to move your seating away from the wall?

Craig

When you say the "best" seat, is it the best seat for viewing, the best seat for listening or the current best seat for bass?

Moving the sub out of the corner will significantly change it's in-room response. If the "sweet spot" is the seat next to the sub, then that's were the sub should be placed for the crawl test. Place it *on* the seat, not on the floor where the seat would have been.

Do you have any ability to move your seating away from the wall?

Craig By "best" seat I mean you are sitting right in the middle between the main left and right speakers with the center speaker aimed right at you. It's where I sit to watch movies and listen to music.

Are you sure that moving the subwoofer out of the corner just by 1 foot or so will have a significant effect on its in-room response? I'll try it anyway.

By "best" seat I mean you are sitting right in the middle between the main left and right speakers with the center speaker aimed right at you. It's where I sit to watch movies and listen to music.
It looks a little scrunched by the loveseat. Anyway, if that's the "sweet spot", then that were you should place the sub for the crawl test.

Are you sure that moving the subwoofer out of the corner just by 1 foot or so will have a significant effect on its in-room response? I'll try it anyway.
Unless you plan to sit in the corner, I would place the sub where you plan to sit.

Craig

sean_w_smith,

Would you describe the sound quality of the Submersive as being tighter and more immediate than the MFW-15 ? Would you consider the MFW-15 to be on the boomy side compared to the Submersive ? I know, similar questions just phrased differently. I think I may be procrastinating just a tad. :) I ask these questions because I currently own an MFW-15 and the bass is still a tad boomy, even after adding bass traps in the room.

Funny thing is/was, I recently demoed the Paradigm sub25, in a room with no acoustic treatment and it whipped my MFW-15 big time. Obviously I wouldn't expect the MFW-15 to perform to similar standards but I do have bass traps stacked from floor to ceiling in the two front corners of my room and the sub25 literally blew my MFW-15 away in terms of immediacy, tightness and articulation. Now the sub25 is sealed, which may have been the primary reason for this, which begs the question if perhaps the MFW-15 is/was, by design, a tad boomy to begin with ?

I've always been of the opinion that a ported sub tuned low enough would sound much like a sealed design above port tune where the port isn't contributing much if at all. Now I don't know anymore. I also heard the Fathom, a sub that according to Craigsub and his 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse should sound similar and yet in a square room, concrete walls, with no acoustic treatment, the bass was considerably better. When I say 'better', I mean no comparison. The bass was tighter, better defined, less muddy, less overhang, decay etc. Of course, the sub is also sealed.

Lastly and most importantly, did you compare both the Submersive and MFW-15 in identical locations ? :D Thanks.

Regards,

Listen to "hurt" by nin on bluray. Insane lfe on the submersive

sean_w_smith,

Would you describe the sound quality of the Submersive as being tighter and more immediate than the MFW-15 ? Would you consider the MFW-15 to be on the boomy side compared to the Submersive ? I know, similar questions just phrased differently. I think I may be procrastinating just a tad. :) I ask these questions because I currently own an MFW-15 and the bass is still a tad boomy, even after adding bass traps in the room.

Funny thing is/was, I recently demoed the Paradigm sub25, in a room with no acoustic treatment and it whipped my MFW-15 big time. Obviously I wouldn't expect the MFW-15 to perform to similar standards but I do have bass traps stacked from floor to ceiling in the two front corners of my room and the sub25 literally blew my MFW-15 away in terms of immediacy, tightness and articulation. Now the sub25 is sealed, which may have been the primary reason for this, which begs the question if perhaps the MFW-15 is/was, by design, a tad boomy to begin with ?

I've always been of the opinion that a ported sub tuned low enough would sound much like a sealed design above port tune where the port isn't contributing much if at all. Now I don't know anymore. I also heard the Fathom, a sub that according to Craigsub and his 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse should sound similar and yet in a square room, concrete walls, with no acoustic treatment, the bass was considerably better. When I say 'better', I mean no comparison. The bass was tighter, better defined, less muddy, less overhang, decay etc. Of course, the sub is also sealed.

Lastly and most importantly, did you compare both the Submersive and MFW-15 in identical locations ? :D Thanks.

Regards,

Paradigm Signature SUB 25? Id love to hear one of those. How does the Fathom compare to the Paradigm?

I agree , the MFW-15 is on the boomy side and music duty is not its strong point, however it does do a fine job overall given its price point.

My MFW-15 is leaving today , my Submersive will be here shortly and it is going to sit where the MFW sat.

Ive had the MFW almost a year so I know it well, I will know how much better the Submersive is in a pretty short period of time.

My expectations are pretty high, I am keeping my fingers crossed. :)

Paradigm Signature SUB 25? Id love to hear one of those. How does the Fathom compare to the Paradigm?

Unfortunately I couldn't demo both subwoofers in the same acoustic space so my impressions won't hold much water, comparison-wise. Let's just say that once you hear these subwoofers you know almost immediately that they are top-tier. To me, the Fathom and Sub25 have established themselves as being some of the best sounding subwoofers available.

When I say these sub's are top-tier performance-wise, I mean much better than the MFW-15. I know people have great things to say about the MFW-15 and it is a fantastic subwoofer for the money, don't get me wrong, but I've also heard some compare the JL Fathom to the MFW-15 sound quality-wise and I simply don't see how that is even possible. Unless the comparisons were grossly unfair against the Fathom, I simply won't believe it.

It's like in order for the MFW-15 to have a fighting chance you basically need to have substantial bass trapping. And the thing is, both sub's were demoed in less-than-spectacular acoustic spaces and still excelled in most areas that mattered.

I agree , the MFW-15 is on the boomy side and music duty is not its strong point, however it does do a fine job overall given its price point.

It might seem a bit harsh to call the MFW-15 'boomy' but I don't know how else to describe it. After adding in bass traps the sound most definitely tightened up but it still sounds boomy in comparison to these top-end subwoofers.

I don't have any EQ in my system at the moment, I sold my SMS-1 several months ago and it's more than possible that an EQ solution would mitigate most of my concerns. But what amazes me most is that these other sealed offerings sound as good as they do in rooms with zero acoustic treatment and with dimensions not exactly conducive to good acoustic performance and they still best my MFW-15 easily.

My MFW-15 is leaving today , my Submersive will be here shortly and it is going to sit where the MFW sat.

Well, I for one look very forward to your impressions of the Submersive compared to the MFW-15. I can understand your expectations will be high given the cost differential. :D

Regards,

I been trying to talk my wife into getting a submersive for over a month now. She just keeps telling me to wait. Last night she even made a joke about my sub 10 since it's sitting under the end table. She said it looks like its scared of my rf83s. I told her let me get 1 or 2 submersives and the rf83s will go hide in back of the tv. Lol. She just smiled and told me soon.:(

I been trying to talk my wife into getting a submersive for over a month now. She just keeps telling me to wait. Last night she even made a joke about my sub 10 since it's sitting under the end table. She said it looks like its scared of my rf83s. I told her let me get 1 or 2 submersives and the rf83s will go hide in back of the tv. Lol. She just smiled and told me soon.:(

Asking for permission is usually not a good approach. I usually don't even tell my wife, unless she notices something new.

If you are going to ask, you have to frame the question properly. Show her two 8 foot tall Sonotube subs and say, "I am thinking about getting a set of these, but I might wimp out and settle for a pair of these little SubMersive subs. Which one should we get honey?"

The other approach is to use your children (if you have some) since a mother will not shoot the messenger if it is her own child. For example, "Mommy, Daddy says we can turn our play room into our very own movie theater, but only if you say it is OK. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE can we have our own theater?" or for the SubMersive, "Daddy says the mail man is bringing us a big black box that will make the whole house shake!"

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee324/allredp/SubMersiveFrontRightCornerwscreen.jpg
First position I've measured. It is where my Ultra used to be. I'm getting the kinks worked out in my REW measurement setup, so I'll be posting the graphs, etc. soon to get some knowlegeable help.

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee324/allredp/DowntheStairs.jpg
That was a fun ride down the stairs by myself! The SubMersive doesn't lack in weight, though it takes up a smaller footprint (at least it seems) than the Ultra did. The packing was perfect--no blems or problems in transit even though the box was a bit worse-for-ware.

So far, it is handling my LFE torture scenes without a sweat or a crappy noise. It has a stealthy quality about it until something major happens on screen--then it gets all shock & awe! :eek: Can't wait to do some more testing/EQ'ing & enjoying.

The finish is incredible--truly furniture-grade. I'll see if I can't post some better pics close-up. I've had my run of the afternoon, now I get to 'wine & dine' my beautiful wife...

Well, I for one look very forward to your impressions of the Submersive compared to the MFW-15. I can understand your expectations will be high given the cost differential. :D


I will do my best reviewing the Submersive, I am just guessing but I am sure the Submersive will be twice as good as the MFW-15 but given what I paid for the Submersive I hope it performs 3x or better. I think even if the initial testing does not sound as great as I am hoping for all that will mean is I gotta do em again. Id say after 3x then I can pretty confidently say how the Submersive performs.

Keep an eye out for my review, it should be up after having spent a few weeks with the Submersive.

BTW I sold the MFW this afternoon so I won't be able to do any A/B testing , however the MFW-15 was in my HT since last Sept so almost a year , so I remember how it performs pretty darn well.

That's great guys. Looking forward to both of your views.

I will do my best reviewing the Submersive, I am just guessing but I am sure the Submersive will be twice as good as the MFW-15 but given what I paid for the Submersive I hope it performs 3x or better.

I have absolutely no doubt that the Submersive will lay waste to a pair of MFW-15's down low. In fact I think that Mark has compared 3 MFW-15's to a single Submersive under certain conditions.

So I'm excited to hear your impressions on that. But I'm especially intrigued by the musical capabilities of the Submersive vs the MFW-15, more so than anything else. Hopefully it will be a major improvement in that area. If it is a major improvement I wonder if the reason would be linked to the sealed design or the opposing woofer configuration or both. I'll assume both, but let's wait and see.

I have high hopes for it though.

Regards,

I have absolutely no doubt that the Submersive will lay waste to a pair of MFW-15's down low. In fact I think that Mark has compared 3 MFW-15's to a single Submersive under certain conditions.

So I'm excited to hear your impressions on that. But I'm especially intrigued by the musical capabilities of the Submersive vs the MFW-15, more so than anything else. Hopefully it will be a major improvement in that area. If it is a major improvement I wonder if the reason would be linked to the sealed design or the opposing woofer configuration or both. I'll assume both, but let's wait and see.

I have high hopes for it though.

Regards,

I spend more time listening to music then I do watching movies so sound quality is #1 for me , id give up a lot of output for better sound quality. Though from what i've read the Submersive has a ton of both. I expect the sound quality improvement to be immediately noticeable when I fire it up , SQ is ok on the MFW but not great. Heck I even turned the MFW off once in awhile while listen to music. I am expecting a 500% improvement in SQ from the Submersive. If it is 300% or lower I will be disappointed .

James,

You may have answered this question already but do you have any acoustic treatment in your room ?

Regards,

One of the most musical subs I ever heard was the Mirage BPSS-210. It has been discontinued for a long time but it used dual bipolar 10" woofers arranged the same way as the Submersive. It also used some sort of DSP. I wonder if Mark knows of this sub?
http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/mirage-speakers-1446/bps-s210-subwoofers-5736.html

One of the most musical subs I ever heard was the Mirage BPSS-210. It has been discontinued for a long time but it used dual bipolar 10" woofers arranged the same way as the Submersive. It also used some sort of DSP. I wonder if Mark knows of this sub?
http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/mirage-speakers-1446/bps-s210-subwoofers-5736.html

there was also the Mirage BPS-400

http://www.soundsgoodtomehouston.com/mirage/bps400_frontangle.jpg

i remember those subs from the mid 90s. i still have some company literature for them laying around here somewhere

James,

You may have answered this question already but do you have any acoustic treatment in your room ?

Regards,


Nope.

I am expecting a 500% improvement in SQ from the Submersive. If it is 300% or lower I will be disappointed .

So when are you expecting the Submersive to arrive ? :)

Regards,

I spend more time listening to music then I do watching movies so sound quality is #1 for me , id give up a lot of output for better sound quality. Though from what i've read the Submersive has a ton of both. I expect the sound quality improvement to be immediately noticeable when I fire it up , SQ is ok on the MFW but not great. Heck I even turned the MFW off once in awhile while listen to music. I am expecting a 500% improvement in SQ from the Submersive. If it is 300% or lower I will be disappointed .
How do you intend to quantify whether it's 300% or 500% better? :confused:

One of the most musical subs I ever heard was the Mirage BPSS-210. It has been discontinued for a long time but it used dual bipolar 10" woofers arranged the same way as the Submersive. It also used some sort of DSP. I wonder if Mark knows of this sub?
http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/mirage-speakers-1446/bps-s210-subwoofers-5736.html

Probably 11 or more years ago in the same room I currently have the submersive but complementing a completely different two channel system I was using a Mirage BPS-150i (same dual 10 inch configuration) for a short while but was not at all impressed with it's performance. I know this subwoofer series has a huge following but the 150i, at least, for musicality or anything else in my room was relatively pitiful. Hope this answers your question you didn't ask.

How do you intend to quantify whether it's 300% or 500% better?

With a high-powered microscope ?

Regards,

The 150i was not even close to the same sub as the BPSS-210. Of course it could never go as low as the submersive.

One of the most musical subs I ever heard was the Mirage BPSS-210. It has been discontinued for a long time but it used dual bipolar 10" woofers arranged the same way as the Submersive. It also used some sort of DSP. I wonder if Mark knows of this sub?
http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/mirage-speakers-1446/bps-s210-subwoofers-5736.html

Blast from the past! I remember wanting one of those, but it was so big and expensive! Something outrageous like $1500! Well, at least it was back then :D

The 150i was not even close to the same sub as the BPSS-210. Of course it could never go as low as the submersive.

I'll take your word for it as I've not personally compared the 150 to the 210 but just for clarification my comparison has nothing to do with sub-30hz reproduction.

How do you intend to quantify whether it's 300% or 500% better? :confused:

100%= twice as good (noticeably better SQ and overall performance)
200%= better yet
300%= better by a big margin
400%= better by huge margin
500%= wow! just wow!

Obviously whatever I say should be taken with a grain of salt as its just my opinion , but I think my opinion is fairly valid considering that I have had somewhere around 20 different DIY subs and 10 or so commercial subwoofers.
The only reason I am no longer a DIYer is because I suffered a traumatic brain injury in 06' , its a long story so lets just leave it at that.

I am not using any equipment other than my own ears and an SPL meter.

With a high-powered microscope ?

Regards,

a yard stick and a stick of bubble gum.

a yard stick and a stick of bubble gum.

So...when are you expecting your Submersive to arrive ?

Regards,

I am not 100% sure but possibly late this week.

100%= twice as good (noticeably better SQ and overall performance)
200%= better yet
300%= better by a big margin
400%= better by huge margin
500%= wow! just wow!

Obviously whatever I say should be taken with a grain of salt as its just my opinion , but I think my opinion is fairly valid considering that I have had somewhere around 20 different DIY subs and 10 or so commercial subwoofers.
The only reason I am no longer a DIYer is because I suffered a traumatic brain injury in 06' , its a long story so lets just leave it at that.

I am not using any equipment other than my own ears and an SPL meter.

So, if it's *only* 300% better, or "better by a big margin", you'll be disappointed. :confused:

I don't know...seems like you may be setting your expectations so high that you're almost guaranteed to be disappointed.

So, if it's *only* 300% better, or "better by a big margin", you'll be disappointed. :confused:

I don't know...seems like you may be setting your expectations so high that you're almost guaranteed to be disappointed.

That is a good point Craig, thank you. I already thought about this and 300% is indeed going a bit high. Let me change that to 125% :)

That is a good point Craig, thank you. I already thought about this and 300% is indeed going a bit high. Let me change that to 125% :)
:) Seems like a much more realistic target.

What would be nice is if the Submersive surprises me, if this happens then I can bet its gonna be 100-200% . Now if it shocks me then its gonna be 300%+ :)

Please shock me Submersive !! :D

What would be nice is if the Submersive surprises me, if this happens then I can bet its gonna be 100-200% . Now if it shocks me then its gonna be 300%+ :)

Please shock me Submersive !! :D
Cool, but still, other than subjective opinion, I don't understand how plan to you "quantitate" the improvement. Don't get me wrong.. I'm not discounting your subjective opinion. I just want to understand, if you try to put some kind of objective, "%-improvement" numbers to your opinions, I want to understand what those "numbers" mean. IOW, will there be some objective, "measurable" parameters, (Max output, FR, distortion, etc.), that will explain your subjective "%-improvement" numbers?

OR, will the "%-improvement" number just represent your subjective assessment? If it does, that's fine, but we need know to put it in perspective.

Thanks.

Craig

Let me reveal my total notice status: the higher the numerical value on the volume knob (on the SubMersive) the lower the volume, right? I.e., the numerical value is the amount BELOW 0?

Also: using the test tones on my Onk 805, if the L/C/R speaker are set to 75 dB on my RS SPL meter, is 75 dB for the sub actually about 5 to 10 dB higher than this because of the 'correction table' for the RS meter (e.g., 7.5 dB for 20 Hz)?

Let me reveal my total notice status: the higher the numerical value on the volume knob (on the SubMersive) the lower the volume, right? I.e., the numerical value is the amount BELOW 0?

Also: using the test tones on my Onk 805, if the L/C/R speaker are set to 75 dB on my RS SPL meter, is 75 dB for the sub actually about 5 to 10 dB higher than this because of the 'correction table' for the RS meter (e.g., 7.5 dB for 20 Hz)?

Correct on the first, not so simple on the second. Normally you would not measure the sub at a single frequency for level matching. You run pink noise which goes across quite a range of correction values. Most people seem to figure the RS meter error around 3 db. I set my level by running a sweep up to 500 hz or so with the mains on, and then applying a liberal amount of curve smoothing to get a visual picture of how the sub and mains were lining up. all of the other speakers were set to 75 db with the pink noise first, I only adjusted the sub this way.

Let me reveal my total notice status: the higher the numerical value on the volume knob (on the SubMersive) the lower the volume, right? I.e., the numerical value is the amount BELOW 0?

Also: using the test tones on my Onk 805, if the L/C/R speaker are set to 75 dB on my RS SPL meter, is 75 dB for the sub actually about 5 to 10 dB higher than this because of the 'correction table' for the RS meter (e.g., 7.5 dB for 20 Hz)?

Correct on the first, not so simple on the second. Normally you would not measure the sub at a single frequency for level matching. You run pink noise which goes across quite a range of correction values. Most people seem to figure the RS meter error around 3 db. I set my level by running a sweep up to 500 hz or so with the mains on, and then applying a liberal amount of curve smoothing to get a visual picture of how the sub and mains were lining up. all of the other speakers were set to 75 db with the pink noise first, I only adjusted the sub this way.

This is where the Audio Toolkit DVD is quite handy. Go into "Acoustic Test Signals" and go through the measurements you see on the first page. These are all adjusted for an SPL meter set to C weighting, slow mode. Usually you will want the subwoofer set equal to 6dB hot dependent on a few factors, but basically whatever you prefer. The test signal on the DVD is 40-80Hz band limited pink noise which is the appropriate level for the SPL meter to be in C weighting, slow mode. While it can be affected by excessive energy down low, it isn't as sensitive and gives a better means of matching when using noise signals.

I expect the sound quality improvement to be immediately noticeable when I fire it up , SQ is ok on the MFW but not great. Heck I even turned the MFW off once in awhile while listen to music. I am expecting a 500% improvement in SQ from the Submersive. If it is 300% or lower I will be disappointed .

don't forget, craig john's sig applies to subwoofers as well as speakers :)

Cool, but still, other than subjective opinion, I don't understand how plan to you "quantitate" the improvement. Don't get me wrong.. I'm not discounting your subjective opinion. I just want to understand, if you try to put some kind of objective, "%-improvement" numbers to your opinions, I want to understand what those "numbers" mean. IOW, will there be some objective, "measurable" parameters, (Max output, FR, distortion, etc.), that will explain your subjective "%-improvement" numbers?

OR, will the "%-improvement" number just represent your subjective assessment? If it does, that's fine, but we need know to put it in perspective.

Thanks.

Craig

Craig, I don't have the Submersive yet and I have not said a thing about it, lets cross that bridge when we come to it. deal? :);)

don't forget, craig john's sig applies to subwoofers as well as speakers :)

There might be a small patch of ice here and there in my room but its far from all glare ice. :p

Correct on the first, not so simple on the second. Normally you would not measure the sub at a single frequency for level matching. You run pink noise which goes across quite a range of correction values. Most people seem to figure the RS meter error around 3 db. I set my level by running a sweep up to 500 hz or so with the mains on, and then applying a liberal amount of curve smoothing to get a visual picture of how the sub and mains were lining up. all of the other speakers were set to 75 db with the pink noise first, I only adjusted the sub this way.

I don't use sine waves (a single freq) but the pink noise test tones from my Onk 805 AVR. At present, I use this to set the L/C/R speakers at 75 dB, the surrounds 2 or 3 dB higher, and the sub about 5 dB higher (all measured via the RS SPL meter). Sounds about right, but good to hear what more experienced people find best.

I have used pink noise test tones from other sources, but those from the AVR are the most convenient for regular check ups.

BTW today I asked the guy who calibrated my Pioneer plasma if he used a Radio Shack SPL meter or something else .

His reply........
I use Sencore's SP295C @ $2500.00 and Sencore's MX299 @ $1500.00
http://sencore.com/products/audio-acoustics/41
http://sencore.com/products/audio-acoustics/71
The other tool I carry for audio / Acoustical Calibrations is Sencore's DAG5161 @ $2000.00
http://sencore.com/products/audio-acoustics/15

I don't know what all that fancy stuff is . ^^^ Anybody ?

So let me ask you guys, is there a better SPL meter than the trusty old analog meter from Radio Shack ? If you type in SPL meter at Amazon a number of different meters are listed .

I don't use sine waves (a single freq) but the pink noise test tones from my Onk 805 AVR. At present, I use this to set the L/C/R speakers at 75 dB, the surrounds 2 or 3 dB higher, and the sub about 5 dB higher (all measured via the RS SPL meter). Sounds about right, but good to hear what more experienced people find best.

I have used pink noise test tones from other sources, but those from the AVR are the most convenient for regular check ups.

Why are the surrounds higher in db than the mains? Single or multiple subs?

Bill

Why are the surrounds higher in db than the mains? Single or multiple subs?

Bill

I like just a bit more kick in the surround effects.

A general question for fellow SubMersivers: there are 3 controls I can use to set the sub level--the volume control on the sub itself, the trim level in the AVR, and the volume control on my SMS-1 eq unit.

At present I get the net overall volume right (about 5 dB above the L/C/R speakers, measured from the AVR's pink noise with a RS SPL) with the sub volume control at about 25% of max (i.e., 1/4 up), the trim level in the AVR at ~ -2, and the SMS volume at ~ 25 to 30 (range is 0 to 99). Does this seem reasonable? Am I missing any of the Sub's dynamics by having it up only 1/4 of the way? Any recommendations?

Am I missing any of the Sub's dynamics by having it up only 1/4 of the way? Any recommendations?


1/4 (or 9 o'clock) seems low to me. When I get my Submersive id probably try it at about 11 o'clock to start with.

Id like to hear what some other Sumbmersive owners have theirs set to.

I have my SubMersive at -12, my Onkyo NR-906 at 0, and my Velodyne SMS-1 at 7.

Does this seem reasonable? Am I missing any of the Sub's dynamics by having it up only 1/4 of the way? Any recommendations?

If you keep the gain levels sufficiently low the end result could result in crushed dynamics due to signal compression. I also used to own the SMS-1 and on my MFW-15 I set the gain levels to 30% as this yielded a level of 73 dB's.

Yet every time I watched a film at relatively high levels with deep bass the dynamics were highly compressed. The levels would simply not increase any further, similar to power compression but this was different. There is no way that my MFW-15 would reach power compression levels when calibrated flat with a flat room curve. Power compression is thermal based. Signal compression is a different story. The signal level or drive level was simply too low and any high level signals were simply compressed/cut.

The funny thing is that I only learned that this was a problem one day until I decided to just 'let rip' and turned my gain control to 50%. Then all of a sudden I got hit in the chest, the walls started creaking heavily and I wondered just what the hell had happened.

So I just recalibrated my levels, set the SMS-1 down a little, my sub trim level in AVR down a little and increased my sub gain levels. Much better end result.

If you ever feel bass sounds compressed at high levels (not insanely high) then just do that simple test, increase gain level on the sub, recalibrate and play the scene again. If one calibrates flat (72-73 dB's), with a flat room curve, there is virtually no excuse not to be able to hit reference levels with a decent sub. It's just that much easier. I was shocked how much of a difference it made to my set up. After I recalibrated it sounded like I just added 2-3 MFW-15's when in actual fact my single MFW-15 simply wasn't receiving the correct signal level.

Regards,

Here is the gain control on the back of the SubMersive:

http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/file?id=821606

I don't have an EQ at the moment. I have my SubMersive's gain control set to -24 dB and the subwoofer channel trim level on my A/V receiver set to 0 dB.

Are you saying I should try a higher gain setting on the SubMersive and offset the increase by decreasing the trim for the subwoofer channel on my A/V receiver?

Thanks JWJ, Gladiator, and goneten. Referring to the above pic of the SubMersive's control panel, mine is now at 24 (which is what I called 25%), with the 805 (AVR)'s trim at -2 and the SMS's vol at 27. I gather from your comments that it might be better to move the Sub vol up to 10 or 12 (i.e., about 50% of max) and turn down the SMS's vol and/or the AVR trim level to get the overall vol I need to balance with the other speakers.

Did I get the right message?

FULL TILT BOOGIE HERE GUYS ( cant remember off the top of my head but honestly its like 0-4 range on the dial!) now mark did set mine up using a QSC DSP-4, DSP30 non rack mount though. I dont know where the settings are in the pre or the dsp right now.

FULL TILT BOOGIE HERE GUYS ( cant remember off the top of my head but honestly its like 0-4 range on the dial!)

Whoa, no kidding?! That's incredible... Mark must have some pretty interesting things happening in the DSP-4 that allows such a hot setting, eh?!

Mine is currently set at -16 dB, with my AVR at -8.0.

I've got to track down some new cables and then I can get cracking on my DSP-30 EQ for the SubMersive. Looking forward to getting even more from my already mind-blowing setup!!!:)

FULL TILT BOOGIE HERE GUYS ( cant remember off the top of my head but honestly its like 0-4 range on the dial!) now mark did set mine up using a QSC DSP-4, DSP30 non rack mount though. I dont know where the settings are in the pre or the dsp right now. Might explain why my SubMersive arrived with its gain on MAX. :eek:

Did I get the right message?

Yes.

Regards,

I just tried increasing the gain on the SubMersive and got interesting results! :eek:

I originally had the gain on the SubMersive set to -24 dB with the subwoofer channel trim on my A/V receiver set to 0 dB. With this setting, I achieved 115 dB peaks on the LFE channel so I guess it's considered flatly calibrated. While watching Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones during the scene involving the huge spaceship flyover that eventually explodes, I would get some clipping during the flyovers and quite a bit of clipping during the explosion when watching at full reference level.

Then I tried setting everything up in a way that would result in the same 115 dB peaks but with the highest possible gain setting on the SubMersive. Since the lowest subwoofer channel trim setting on my A/V receiver is -12 dB, I set it at -12 dB on my A/V receiver. Then I played around with the SPL meter and found out I could increase the gain on the SubMersive from -24 dB to -10 dB while maintaining the 115 dB peaks. Guess what? At full reference level, the clipping during the flyovers disappeared with only very brief clipping during the explosion (clip light lit up only twice for a millisecond each time during the explosion)! The bass also sounded more defined and tighter.

goneten is right! EVERYBODY INCREASE THEIR GAINS ON THEIR SUBWOOFERS TO THE HIGHEST POSSIBLE SETTING WHILE MAINTAINING THE SAME CALIBRATED LEVEL NOW! :D

I am a living legend. Kneel. Now. :)

Regards,

At reference levels the maximum 0dBfs LFE signal should provide you with 115dBspl at your listening position assuming the subwoofer is adequate for your room size. To maximize signal to noise ratio you'll ideally want to calibrate your system so that the max signal output from your player is 0dBfs and this level is maintained without clipping through the receiver and to the input of the subwoofer. If at reference levels a 0dBfs LFE signal is clipping while struggling to provide 115dB's then that's a sign that either your room is undersubbed, you are clipping your signal somewhere in the chain due to running levels too hot, or a combination of both. Behringers DEQ2496 has an onboard meter which measures the signal and is a decent tool for calibrating system input and output levels. Assuming reference signals are not being clipped more than 3dB or so prior to the sub I can't imagine drastically reducing LFE gain at the receiver and making up this difference at the sub volume control would provide any positive benefits. Hopefully Mark will chime in and set us all straight.

On further thought, those running all speakers as small could be running into problems on particularly heavy bass scenes which are directing heavy bass to all channels. Re-directed bass signals to the sub is additive by 3db per each re-directed speaker so theoretically in a 7 channel system the re-directed signal could be increased by 21dB which could cause approx 6dB of clipping (or something like that depending on BM iirc). Reducing the sub trim at the receiver by 6dB from reference could alleviate this clipping on a few rare scenes. If no BM is being used, and assuming the players output hasn't been reduced, the receivers sub channel trim should be fine if set anywhere from +3 to any value below that but I prefer to keep them in the 0 range.

I am a living legend. Kneel. Now. :)

Regards,
Ahhhhh... a legend in his own mind! :D:D:D

Kain

I had heard somewhere that the ideal receiver/prepro setting for the subwoofer channel was -5db. This would maximize dynamic range.

Where was your set before you received your revelation on high?

Ahhhhh... a legend in his own mind!

You happen to be a character....sore *cough* loser living within my mind. :D

Regards,

You happen to be a character....sore *cough* loser living within my mind. :D

Regards,
If I'm somehow "living within your mind", it's not by my choice. There must be something else wrong up there! :eek:

Oh, and "regards" to you too!

1/4 (or 9 o'clock) seems low to me. When I get my Submersive id probably try it at about 11 o'clock to start with.

Id like to hear what some other Sumbmersive owners have theirs set to.

Bill,

thats sounds real good.... 11 oclock is way to high in my setup with my onkyo and/or the BFD in the loop.... I'm at lower level than that....

Mark says everything works fine at any sensitivity setting on that amp.....

Sean

Interested to see what mark says about this.... I know what he told me in the past and he did the setup on my current system so I am not about to mess with that too much....

Sean

I am a living legend. Kneel. Now. :)

Regards,

Who are you again?

OK, guys, here are my conclusions from experiments tonight:

1) I do like the results better with Audyssey (run before using the SMS-1) than without it. It went a long way toward smoothing out the sub region (which needed major correction due to my relatively small room, 17x14x8). And I like how Audyssey does the higher freq region. However, using the SMS-1 does make things nicer in the sub region, and I really do like this unit; it gives me confidence (for my audio inferiority complex) that can I really see what's happening with the freq spectrum. For ~ $400 it's worth it to me, though if one were on a tight budget, MultEQ XT by itself would probably do well enough by itself.

2) I turned the gain on the SubMersive up to -12, i.e., about half way. And with my AVR (Onk 805) at -3, and the SMS-1 vol at 20 (1 to 99 range), this gives ~ 78 to 80 dB (on RS SPL meter) with the mains at 75 dB. (The SubM is located in my room not in a corner, for maximum output, but along one wall about 5 ft from the other, which gives a much smoother freq spectrum, as was easy to determine with the SMS-1. In my size room there is no issue about having enough output from the SubMersive.) Having the SubM up halfway gives me confidence that I'm getting its full dynamics range, and the other vol settings seem to be also in a good range.

3) And BOY, what dynamics the SubM produces! After all my playing with the SMS-1, and the SPL readings, I put in 'Master&Commander': the thump to my chest literally pushed me back into the recliner. I also got up and looked at the control panel during the major cannon blasts (and was almost blown away!), and the clipping lights never came on. In my setup they will thus never do so.

So I think I've come to 'equilibrirum' for my SubMersive setup, though I will (like all of us) continue tweaking to reassure myself that I'm getting all it has to offer. But I'm very confident now that I'm on the right track and close to it.

OK, guys, here are my conclusions from experiments tonight:

1) I do like the results better with Audyssey (run before using the SMS-1) than without it. It went a long way toward smoothing out the sub region (which needed major correction due to my relatively small room, 17x14x8). And I like how Audyssey does the higher freq region...

2) I turned the gain on the SubMersive up to -12, i.e., about half way. And with my AVR (Onk 805) at -3, and the SMS-1 vol at 20 (1 to 99 range), this gives ~ 78 to 80 dB (on RS SPL meter) with the mains at 75 dB. (The SubM is located in my room not in a corner, for maximum output, but along one wall about 5 ft from the other, which gives a much smoother freq spectrum, as was easy to determine with the SMS-1. In my size room there is no issue about having enough output from the SubMersive.) Having the SubM up halfway gives me confidence that I'm getting its full dynamics range, and the other vol settings seem to be also in a good range.

3) And BOY, what dynamics the SubM produces! After all my playing with the SMS-1, and the SPL readings, I put in 'Master&Commander': the thump to my chest literally pushed me back into the recliner. I also got up and looked at the control panel during the major cannon blasts (and was almost blown away!), and the clipping lights never came on. In my setup they will thus never do so.

So I think I've come to 'equilibrirum' for my SubMersive setup, though I will (like all of us) continue tweaking to reassure myself that I'm getting all it has to offer. But I'm very confident now that I'm on the right track and close to it.

That's cool, millerwill! Great to hear about your experiments and experience. :)

That's funny about walking over to the SubMersive during M&C! I've also learned that it is a slightly dangerous thing to approach the SubMersive while its munching on some movie at high levels. My LP is 16' away and when I went over next to it I felt the air go a little freaky and my head wanted to pop... :eek: I've felt extra pressurization in near-field with my previous subs, but never at this level! It was a little scary frankly--in that really cool way. :cool:

I've always heard/read it doesn't matter where the gain control is set on a subwoofer, as long as it's calibrated correctly.
In fact my receiver, the Denon 4310, when running Audyssey won't let me set my SubMersive past the 9 o'clock position (-24).
If I turn the SubMersive up any higher, during Audyssey setup, I get an error message.

dc

I've always heard/read it doesn't matter where the gain control is set on a subwoofer, as long as it's calibrated correctly.
In fact my receiver, the Denon 4310, when running Audyssey won't let me set my SubMersive past the 9 o'clock position (-24).
If I turn the SubMersive up any higher, during Audyssey setup, I get an error message.

dc

if i'm reading these posts correctly, they are claiming the dynamic peaks are increased by using more gain on the sub and less in the avr

technically this shouldn't be happening unless something is wrong somewhere

if i'm reading these posts correctly, they are claiming the dynamic peaks are increased by using more gain on the sub and less in the avr

technically this shouldn't be happening unless something is wrong somewhere

It may very well be that having the Sub gain up only ~ 1/4 of the max is fine. I just thought that having it up further would be safer in being able to achieve its full dynamical range. The experts will have much better info on this than I.

Oh, and "regards" to you too!

Apologies if I insulted you. It was not my intention. I added a smiley face but I don't think it captured my intentions the way I wanted it to.

Regards,

Who are you again?

More important. :) FYI, I was..eh.. joking about being a legend, there was a smiley involved, I think. Could be wrong.

Regards,

if i'm reading these posts correctly, they are claiming the dynamic peaks are increased by using more gain on the sub and less in the avr

technically this shouldn't be happening unless something is wrong somewhere

Hi guys,

The level adjustment on the amplifier is just an input attenuator, so it just scales the input. The effects observed are entirely related to the upstream electronics. At high levels, some receivers and pre-amplifiers are much happier at lower channel gain levels (ie -8dB to -2dB), particularly the subwoofer output which can require much higher output. While with pro equipment it is preferable to have the maximum levels you will ever use slightly under the clipping limits, with most home/consumer products you don't want to over-load the electronics where most receivers and pre-processors are rather low noise to begin with, being happier at lower level operation than near maximum.

This is most likely what is being observed. In the case of the systems using external EQ's like the DSP-30, under the "Tools-options" menu you can adjust the input/output gain while watching the level meters in the software to insure you aren't clipping. When I set SubMersives up myself I often try to keep at higher level settings so someone can't walk over and suddenly add another 10dB to the level. :rolleyes:

I would recommend those with the channel levels in their processor at 0dB or higher to experiment with a lower setting and see if the results are any better, but I can tell you that while in some cases I have observed differences, more often there is none. Of course if you bump the level by a dB or two, intentionally or not, it will sound more dynamic and impressive with the higher level.a

Finally, remember that the level control on the SubMersive amplifiers cover a 36dB range, and the first half of the rotation is ~1dB increments vs. larger steps at the bottom. The mid point of the rotation is only -10dB from maximum, where in most home subwoofers comes from less than 15 degrees of rotation, as they have a much wider range of gain. Unless you are connecting with speaker level inputs, that much range is never really needed.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for jumping in, Mark; good to have word from the source.

Hi guys,

The level adjustment on the amplifier is just an input attenuator, so it just scales the input. The effects observed are entirely related to the upstream electronics. At high levels, some receivers and pre-amplifiers are much happier at lower channel gain levels (ie -8dB to -2dB), particularly the subwoofer output which can require much higher output. While with pro equipment it is preferable to have the maximum levels you will ever use slightly under the clipping limits, with most home/consumer products you don't want to over-load the electronics where most receivers and pre-processors are rather low noise to begin with, being happier at lower level operation than near maximum....

This is most likely what is being observed.

Finally, remember that the level control on the SubMersive amplifiers cover a 36dB range, and the first half of the rotation is ~1dB increments vs. larger steps at the bottom. The mid point of the rotation is only -10dB from maximum...

Hope that helps.
Yes it does, Mark. Nice help there as usual!

BTW, I'm picking up my XLR cable today so I can begin the process of implementing the DSP-30!

So far here's my measurements with an 80hz x-over and the SubMersive in my front R corner at a phase-adjusted 18' from LP (measured with the R main and SubMersive together in REQW--thanks to m-fine).

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee324/allredp/mainandsubrcornertight80hzxo18ftdis.jpg

Yes it does, Mark. Nice help there as usual!

BTW, I'm picking up my XLR cable today so I can begin the process of implementing the DSP-30!

So far here's my measurements with an 80hz x-over and the SubMersive in my front R corner at a phase-adjusted 18' from LP (measured with the R main and SubMersive together in REQW--thanks to m-fine).

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee324/allredp/mainandsubrcornertight80hzxo18ftdis.jpg

That's looking rather good Phil. Now do the same with the center channel (L/R mono input to PLII movie mode).

Hearing any differences from these adjustments?

Yes it does, Mark. Nice help there as usual!

BTW, I'm picking up my XLR cable today so I can begin the process of implementing the DSP-30!

So far here's my measurements with an 80hz x-over and the SubMersive in my front R corner at a phase-adjusted 18' from LP (measured with the R main and SubMersive together in REQW--thanks to m-fine).

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee324/allredp/mainandsubrcornertight80hzxo18ftdis.jpg



Why did you select 15 Hz for a low end limit on your chart?

That's looking rather good Phil. Now do the same with the center channel (L/R mono input to PLII movie mode).

Hearing any differences from these adjustments?

OK here's the startling results! The red is the Center only, the light green is LCR together, and the dark green is just the R.

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee324/allredp/centersubmersiveredvslcrsublightgre.jpg

What's happening with this, eh? :confused: I have a fairly stout Center--dual 6" woofers and it is set at 80hz x-over.

BTW, my connection to the AVR from my REW rig is a single (mono) RCA to the Aux 2 front panel input. The perceived volume level for the center only is very low--as the graph shows--vs. the R or the L/R together.

It is in PLII Movie setting.

Thanks for the help--things are sounding great, BTW! That Star Wars II initial scene where the spaceship flies by and then explodes is really gut/chest pounding! :D

BTW, my connection to the AVR from my REW rig is a single (mono) RCA to the Aux 2 front panel input. The perceived volume level for the center only is very low--as the graph shows--vs. the R or the L/R together.

It is in PLII Movie setting.

Thanks for the help--things are sounding great, BTW! That Star Wars II initial scene where the spaceship flies by and then explodes is really gut/chest pounding! :D

You need to use a Y connector to feed both the L & R input of the Aux2 input. The same signal sent to the L&R routes the signal to the center channel when in PLII(or IIx) Movie mode. You can then drive one channel or the other for L/R, and both to get the center. The summation means the center channel will be 3dB higher if the same input signal is used.

You need to use a Y connector to feed both the L & R input of the Aux2 input. The same signal sent to the L&R routes the signal to the center channel when in PLII(or IIx) Movie mode. You can then drive one channel or the other for L/R, and both to get the center. The summation means the center channel will be 3dB higher if the same input signal is used.

OK, that's better! I hate being a noob... :o

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee324/allredp/centeronlytanvsrmaingreen.jpg

I'll try to do the same distance-adjusting to adjust phase as well.

Any suggestions, insights? :)

Addition:

After running the Center distance (11' actual) up and down several feet either way, this appears to be the best, in spite of the nasty dip in the 85-90hz range. Hopefully it is so narrow that it won't be too noticeable?

Also, is this something that the QSC will help with?

Interestingly, this mirrors some experiences I have had in my in-car system. Plugging my iPod in, If I crank up the IPOd and then run the stereo at "normal" levels, things can be overly bright, raspy even, bass is muddy, etc. If I crank the stereo way up (Alpine) and put the ipod at mid volume, I find I can get way louder, with much clearer sound, and the bass is much tighter. I just have to remember not to let my kid crank up the ipod as well lest we be surrounded by speaker dust. :) Just a casual observation of a similar issue.

Why did you select 15 Hz for a low end limit on your chart?

That's the standard graph parameters of REW. Most people complain if you don't post the graphs in this standard. :)

Apologies if I insulted you. It was not my intention. I added a smiley face but I don't think it captured my intentions the way I wanted it to.

Regards,
No worries... I laughed. :D

I just tried increasing the gain on the SubMersive and got interesting results! :eek:

I originally had the gain on the SubMersive set to -24 dB with the subwoofer channel trim on my A/V receiver set to 0 dB. With this setting, I achieved 115 dB peaks on the LFE channel so I guess it's considered flatly calibrated. While watching Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones during the scene involving the huge spaceship flyover that eventually explodes, I would get some clipping during the flyovers and quite a bit of clipping during the explosion when watching at full reference level.

Then I tried setting everything up in a way that would result in the same 115 dB peaks but with the highest possible gain setting on the SubMersive. Since the lowest subwoofer channel trim setting on my A/V receiver is -12 dB, I set it at -12 dB on my A/V receiver. Then I played around with the SPL meter and found out I could increase the gain on the SubMersive from -24 dB to -10 dB while maintaining the 115 dB peaks. Guess what? At full reference level, the clipping during the flyovers disappeared with only very brief clipping during the explosion (clip light lit up only twice for a millisecond each time during the explosion)! The bass also sounded more defined and tighter.

goneten is right! EVERYBODY INCREASE THEIR GAINS ON THEIR SUBWOOFERS TO THE HIGHEST POSSIBLE SETTING WHILE MAINTAINING THE SAME CALIBRATED LEVEL NOW! :D

I have posted this before as well, the PB13 Ultra manual says exactly that, (more or less) to lower the LFE on the pre/pro and use a higher gain on the sub....works in my room:D. Explanation is that lower levels of distortion are passed when the LFE is set to a lower level...explains the clipping before your changes were made.

Have fun!

I have posted this before as well, the PB13 Ultra manual says exactly that, (more or less) to lower the LFE on the pre/pro and use a higher gain on the sub....works in my room:D. Explanation is that lower levels of distortion are passed when the LFE is set to a lower level...explains the clipping before your changes were made.

Have fun!

So how far down to you go in the pre/pro (e.g. -5 dB, lower?) and how high up in gain on the sub (halfway, more?)?

OK, that's better! I hate being a noob... :o

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee324/allredp/centeronlytanvsrmaingreen.jpg

I'll try to do the same distance-adjusting to adjust phase as well.

Any suggestions, insights? :)

Addition:

After running the Center distance (11' actual) up and down several feet either way, this appears to be the best, in spite of the nasty dip in the 85-90hz range. Hopefully it is so narrow that it won't be too noticeable?

Also, is this something that the QSC will help with?

Why did you select 15 Hz for a low end limit on your chart?

That's the standard graph parameters of REW. Most people complain if you don't post the graphs in this standard. :)
An inredibly good result you're attaining with your graphs allredp, well done!

W.r.t. the subject of your cut-off frequency on the graphs, I think the "complaints" you refer to are simply attempts by some of the champions who would readily give technical advice on REW over at the HTS, to keep a hold on the way REW graphs are presented. This should be considered fair enough, as it makes it easy to compare REW graphs.

Having said that, I myself thinks those scales and standards previously set at the HTS are quickly being overtaken ... what with the increasing talks of sub 10Hz performance along with the fact that subwoofers are becoming more sub-15Hz capable!

Bottom line: one should feel quite comfortable at this point in time to display (REW) FR graphs down to 10Hz; that's what I would advocate, and is what more and more folks (myself included) are doing these days to good effect.

Another related point is that of the subdivisions on the vertical (dB) scale on these graphs. I consider that the "new standard" [as I have noticed being advocated by Mark Seaton and a few others] is 5dB per division. This shows up more real world detail on a graph, IMO, than the 8dB/div that has been used for quite a while over at the HTS.

5dB/div would be more like it if one considers that these graphs already have 1/3rd octave smoothing applied to them by most as a normal procedure; so a coarser vertical scale only further serves to give a phantom impression of a smooth/flat curve, when in fact some curves would appear unacceptably bumpy if presented more realistically. 5dB/div is what more and more folks (including yours truly) now use on the vertical scale; and I would advocate this standard as well.

duwdu

I tend to look at my REW graphs on a 6 or 3 db scale because that tends to be the scale of information I am looking for. I think the idea to standardize is OK to help those new to the concept read the graphs, but the scale prints with the curve so you SHOULD be able to interpret the results no matter what scale is used.

So far here's my measurements with an 80hz x-over and the SubMersive in my front R corner at a phase-adjusted 18' from LP (measured with the R main and SubMersive together in REQW--thanks to m-fine).

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee324/allredp/mainandsubrcornertight80hzxo18ftdis.jpg


Sweet! That is a pretty darn good result to start your EQ from. No doubt you will have a very nice sounding system in no time.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Ship date Aug 12, 2009
Estimated delivery Aug 18, 2009
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Sweet! That is a pretty darn good result to start your EQ from. No doubt you will have a very nice sounding system in no time.

Thanks m-fine! Your techincal help has been most appreciated, along with that guy named Mark... ;) :)

I've posted some listening notes on the other thread FWIW.

It is a blast being part of the SubMersive gang finally!!!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Ship date Aug 12, 2009
Estimated delivery Aug 18, 2009
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

James, my friend, you are in for some serious fun now! Looking forward to your impressions and pictures, etc.

Way to go James. Just a few more days to go. I will be restrained and say that I am of the opinion that you will find the submersive very satisfying :).

allrdp,
that certainly is nice looking room response. It seems we almost have the same dips. Yours are just a bit different and they are more shallow then mine. Have fun and enjoy the sub.

pretty nice indeed.... certainly better than a couple of my rooms...... no really nasty's humps or suckouts.....

it will be even better once you get the EQ doing its thing....

Sean

allrdp,
that certainly is nice looking room response. It seems we almost have the same dips. Yours are just a bit different and they are more shallow then mine. Have fun and enjoy the sub.

pretty nice indeed.... certainly better than a couple of my rooms...... no really nasty's humps or suckouts.....

it will be even better once you get the EQ doing its thing....

Sean

Thanks guys! I'm still pinching myself worried I'll wake up and be SubMersive-less after all... :p :D

Yes, it is sounding great, but I really am excited about getting the EQ going. Have to track down the USB-Serial adapter/driver next.

James, my friend, you are in for some serious fun now! Looking forward to your impressions and pictures, etc.
Way to go James. Just a few more days to go. I will be restrained and say that I am of the opinion that you will find the submersive very satisfying :)

:cool:

I got my Submersives today. I set them up and they sound great! (More on that after I get them tweaked :) ). However, I was surprised to find that there is no "Phase" adjustment capability, or "Polarity" switch. I guess then the only "phase" adjustment is the "distance" control in the pre/pro? Or, am I missing something?

Craig

I got my Submersives today. I set them up and they sound great! (More on that after I get them tweaked :) ). However, I was surprised to find that there is no "Phase" adjustment capability, or "Polarity" switch. I guess then the only "phase" adjustment is the "distance" control in the pre/pro? Or, am I missing something?

Craig

I think it is assumed that anyone getting SubM's will have an eq system that will do this job.

I got my Submersives today. I set them up and they sound great! (More on that after I get them tweaked :) ). However, I was surprised to find that there is no "Phase" adjustment capability, or "Polarity" switch. I guess then the only "phase" adjustment is the "distance" control in the pre/pro? Or, am I missing something?

Craig

I didn't want to say anything about FedEx in case I might work some bad karma for you--so, I'm relieved for you to get them early. :D

Looking forward to your review!!!

And yes, the I.C.E. amp does not have any end-user controls other than gain. Mark hogs all the DSP controls for himself. :D :p So, its either phase control through distance manipulation in your pre/pro, or outboard EQ.

I've got an extra BFD laying around if you need me to ship it to you... ;)

I think it is assumed that anyone getting SubM's will have an eq system that will do this job.
I have Audyssey MultEQ XT, which only sets distance. I also have an SMS-1, but I didn't plan to use it with Audyssey. It adds it's own delay due to the latency in the processing, and then it makes Audyssey over-correct in the distance setting.

I was looking for a phase control that would allow me to dial in the phase at the crossover point between the sub and the speakers. I guess that isn't available.

Mark, how do you work around this?

Craig

I didn't want to say anything about FedEx in case I might work some bad karma for you--so, I'm relieved for you to get them early. :D

Looking forward to your review!!!

And yes, the I.C.E. amp does not have any end-user controls other than gain. Mark hogs all the DSP controls for himself. :D :p So, its either phase control through distance manipulation in your pre/pro, or outboard EQ.

I've got an extra BFD laying around if you need me to ship it to you... ;)

Thanks. :) I think the BFD would have the same "latency" problem as the SMS-1. Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. :D

Craig

Thanks. :) I think the BFD would have the same "latency" problem as the SMS-1. Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. :D

Craig

:D No worries... Mark knows best.

In the meantime--how do they compare to the JL F112s? What have you been listening to?

:D No worries... Mark knows best.

In the meantime--how do they compare to the JL F112s? What have you been listening to?
I haven't been able to tweak them yet, so I haven't really done any serious listening. I'll work on them over the weekend and post some impressions. For now, here is their baseline FR with no tweaking:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=150058&stc=1&d=1250216351

This a 3-position measurement, averaged by the software, (xtz Room Analyzer).

Craig