I have Audyssey MultEQ XT, which only sets distance. I also have an SMS-1, but I didn't plan to use it with Audyssey. It adds it's own delay due to the latency in the processing, and then it makes Audyssey over-correct in the distance setting.

I was looking for a phase control that would allow me to dial in the phase at the crossover point between the sub and the speakers. I guess that isn't available.

Mark, how do you work around this?

Craig

I'm obviously not Mark (by name or knowledge), but I use MultEQ XT (via my Onk 805)--and it does a pretty good job on its own--but then use a SMS-1 (I REALLY like playing with this unit!) to do minor tweaking. And then, of course, it's easy to vary phase/polarity.

If fact, I first used the SMS-1 to find the best of my several possible SubM locations. Then ran Audyssey (for the umpteenth time), then tweaked with the SMS-1. I like the result, though I'm by no means an experienced audiophile like you guys.

Very cool, Craig.

You look to be within 10dB of all your frequencies--nice room!

Have you got any pics of your setup?

Very cool, Craig.

You look to be within 10dB of all your frequencies--nice room!

Have you got any pics of your setup?
I took some pics as I was setting them up. I'll post them tomorrow or over the weekend. I have to be in the OR at 7:00 tomorrow morning. Time for bed. :)

Craig

I took some pics as I was setting them up. I'll post them tomorrow or over the weekend. I have to be in the OR at 7:00 tomorrow morning. Time for bed. :)

Craig

Yeah, get to bed... Your patient(s) will really appreciate your steady hands and clear head!!! :D

But, it is Friday, eh? You must be jazzed to have the weekend to work over your new toys. :)

I'm obviously not Mark (by name or knowledge), but I use MultEQ XT (via my Onk 805)--and it does a pretty good job on its own--but then use a SMS-1 (I REALLY like playing with this unit!) to do minor tweaking. And then, of course, it's easy to vary phase/polarity.

If fact, I first used the SMS-1 to find the best of my several possible SubM locations. Then ran Audyssey (for the umpteenth time), then tweaked with the SMS-1. I like the result, though I'm by no means an experienced audiophile like you guys.

I think the biggest benefit of the SMS-1 is for finding the best placement of the subs. It allows you to see the response of the subs in virtual "real time" as you adjust the placement. You can also vary the listening position and see those results in real time.

However, the downsides are not insignificant. The SMS-1 is a digital EQ. It has to take an analog signal and convert it to digital, then do the EQ processes, then convert it back to analog. That all takes some time. This is the "latency" of the device. The latency delays the subwoofer signal relative to the rest of the speakers.

When Audyssey measures the distances of each of the speakers and the sub, it finds that the subwoofer signal takes longer to "arrive" than the rest of the speakers. This is because of the delay in the SMS-1. It therefore sets the subwoofer distance at a longer distance than it's actual physical distance. The net effect is that it delays all the other speakers to allow the subwoofer to "catch up" to them.

That's a lot to ask of the processor, especially if you want to get it right. Personally, I would rather avoid the issue altogether and leave the SMS-1 out of the equation.

In addition, the SMS-1 is a single-point EQ. IOW, it measures and corrects for one single point in space... the mic position. It can potentially make other LP's much *worse*.

OTOH, Audyssey measures and corrects for multiple points, and it corrects, (EQ's), in the time domain as well as the frequency domain. IME and IMO, this is much better than simple frequency response EQ.

Craig

Craig,

I use REW and measure several listening spots, then allow REW to average them. Then run the peaks process to come up with the filters settings that I manually enter into the SMS-1. REW calculates the filters in the time domain. The only fly in the ointment is that the SMS-1 doesn't have the FIR filters.....which may or may not be a real issue. All the chat about them makes them sound better but I'd like to find out for myself but as far as I know, there isn't a EQ that allows for manual adjustment of FIR filters.

Also, not having a phase adjustment setting on the submersive shouldn't be a problem. Actually, the distance setting within your receiver/prepro would do a better job of getting your sub in phase. Most the time, you want to advance the sub signal. A phase control can't do that.

One last thing is to make life a little easier getting that subwoofer distance setting correct, invert the polarity of either the sub or the speaker that you have running. Use the generator function on REW set to your crossover frequency, turn on REW's SPL meter and adjust the distance setting in your receiver till SPL is minimized. Then, return the inverse polarity to normal and you should be good to go.

I think the biggest benefit of the SMS-1 is for finding the best placement of the subs. It allows you to see the response of the subs in virtual "real time" as you adjust the placement. You can also vary the listening position and see those results in real time.

However, the downsides are not insignificant. The SMS-1 is a digital EQ. It has to take an analog signal and convert it to digital, then do the EQ processes, then convert it back to analog. That all takes some time. This is the "latency" of the device. The latency delays the subwoofer signal relative to the rest of the speakers.

When Audyssey measures the distances of each of the speakers and the sub, it finds that the subwoofer signal takes longer to "arrive" than the rest of the speakers. This is because of the delay in the SMS-1. It therefore sets the subwoofer distance at a longer distance than it's actual physical distance. The net effect is that it delays all the other speakers to allow the subwoofer to "catch up" to them.

That's a lot to ask of the processor, especially if you want to get it right. Personally, I would rather avoid the issue altogether and leave the SMS-1 out of the equation.

In addition, the SMS-1 is a single-point EQ. IOW, it measures and corrects for one single point in space... the mic position. It can potentially make other LP's much *worse*.

OTOH, Audyssey measures and corrects for multiple points, and it corrects, (EQ's), in the time domain as well as the frequency domain. IME and IMO, this is much better than simple frequency response EQ.

Craig

Hi Craig,

Good to hear things are sounding impressive in the first pass.

I only use a phase control in setup if I don't have other adjustments which are generally better suited for the job. Adjusting the "distance" setting for the subwoofer has a related but more useful effect (IMO). Your SMS-1 does offer a phase control if you prefer that method of adjustment.

Don't sweat the processor adding a few more milliseconds of delay. This is very easy for the DSP and part of the basic function of any receiver or processor. We don't really care about the physical distance of the subwoofer but rather the acoustic distance or virtual location with all of the electronics in the chain. Even the low pass filter on the subwoofer adds group delay, and it adds more if it is made steeper. If you can account for it there is no problem. This is in fact one of the luxuries we have in multi-channel systems vs. 2 channel, as you almost never have the ability to delay the main speakers relative to the subwoofer. A great deal of audiophile folk lore surrounding what types of subwoofer designs and crossovers sounded good for music was related to such limitations in setup. ;)

Whether you insert the SMS or not, what matters is making the system measurements and adjustments with the full chain of components in the loop.

The net effect is that it delays all the other speakers to allow the subwoofer to "catch up" to them.

This is actually a plus for HT since the video processing takes longer than the audio processing and if you do not delay audio you get lip sync issues.

Hi Craig,

Good to hear things are sounding impressive in the first pass.

I only use a phase control in setup if I don't have other adjustments which are generally better suited for the job. Adjusting the "distance" setting for the subwoofer has a related but more useful effect (IMO). Your SMS-1 does offer a phase control if you prefer that method of adjustment.

Don't sweat the processor adding a few more milliseconds of delay. This is very easy for the DSP and part of the basic function of any receiver or processor. We don't really care about the physical distance of the subwoofer but rather the acoustic distance or virtual location with all of the electronics in the chain. Even the low pass filter on the subwoofer adds group delay, and it adds more if it is made steeper. If you can account for it there is no problem. This is in fact one of the luxuries we have in multi-channel systems vs. 2 channel, as you almost never have the ability to delay the main speakers relative to the subwoofer. A great deal of audiophile folk lore surrounding what types of subwoofer designs and crossovers sounded good for music was related to such limitations in setup. ;)

Whether you insert the SMS or not, what matters is making the system measurements and adjustments with the full chain of components in the loop.
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the clarification. I don't have the SMS in the loop yet, but I may re-insert it. The reason I ask at all is because my JL's have a continuously variable phase control, and I could use it to adjust the phase to optimize the response at the crossover. With the "distance" setting Audyssey found, there was always a dip of 4-5 dB at the crossover, which I could eliminate with a rotation of the phase control. I no longer have that functionality. However, I don't see the dip either. :) Of course, I haven't had the chance to run Audyssey yet, so it may change the distance setting. We'll see. If I get the dip, I'll play with the setting.

Another question for you... if I set the levels to the same point, can I be relatively sure that the subs are "gain-matched", or should I go through your recommendation of moving them to the middle of the room and measuring them?

Thanks!

Craig

Craig

That's great Craig. Looking forward to hearing your expanded views on the sub. Lucky for me the setup was taken care of by you know who so all I had to do was sit back and watch :).

This is actually a plus for HT since the video processing takes longer than the audio processing and if you do not delay audio you get lip sync issues.

I get what you're saying, but my pre/pro has an actual lip-sync control. I use that.

Craig

Guys, help me out a little, I'm building a dedicated HT room, size 14 ft wide x 24ft long x 9ft tall.

How many submersive do I need?

thanks

Guys, help me out a little, I'm building a dedicated HT room, size 14 ft wide x 24ft long x 9ft tall.

How many submersive do I need?

thanks

One would probably do you good. But I don't think you need more then two. More would add to the headroom. Which is never a bad thing mind you.

Guys, help me out a little, I'm building a dedicated HT room, size 14 ft wide x 24ft long x 9ft tall.

How many submersive do I need?

thanks
Your space is just over 3,000 cubic feet. Is the room enclosed, or does it have openings to other spaces? If it's open to other spaces, you'll want to include those spaces in your space calculations, especially if they're large spaces and large openings. If additional spaces take the calculated space much higher, you may want to consider a second SubM. A second SubM will also help smooth out the frequency response, assuming you don't place it adjacent to the first one.

Craig

Guys, help me out a little, I'm building a dedicated HT room, size 14 ft wide x 24ft long x 9ft tall.

How many submersive do I need?

thanks

Technicly you don't need any, at least that is what my wife would say. I have one in a 3800 cuft space. I am not lacking for bass. If money, space and WAF were no objects I would have at least 4, probably more like 32 subs in there, but then again I am nucking futs, so take that with a grain or two of salt. :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by 95bcwh
Guys, help me out a little, I'm building a dedicated HT room, size 14 ft wide x 24ft long x 9ft tall.

How many submersive do I need?

thanks
Your space is just over 3,000 cubic feet. Is the room enclosed, or does it have openings to other spaces? If it's open to other spaces, you'll want to include those spaces in your space calculations, especially if they're large spaces and large openings. If additional spaces take the calculated space much higher, you may want to consider a second SubM. A second SubM will also help smooth out the frequency response, assuming you don't place it adjacent to the first one.

Craig



He said he was building a dedicated HT room so id assume there are no openings bigger than a door.

My rooms is around 3000 cubic feet , 3800 including kitchen and hallway openings.
I would be pretty disappointed if a single Submersive does not handle my room with ease. Id hope a single Submersive could handle 5000 cubic feet
pretty well, 6000+ cu ft is where id start looking into multiple subwoofers.

I will find out next Tuesday how a single Submersive handles my room.

Oh , you can bet your bottom dollar that I am gonna push the Submersive very hard when I get her dialed in.

What is enough? Bass needs to be loud enough and realistic enough that there will be times during certain movies where the bass is so realistic that it makes my heart skip a beat. In other words it actually scares me.;)

Oh , you can bet your bottom dollar that I am gonna push the Submersive very hard when I get her dialed in.

What is enough? Bass needs to be loud enough and realistic enough that there will be times during certain movies where the bass is so realistic that it makes my heart skip a beat. In other words it actually scares me.;)

Again, I don't think you'll be disappointed!

Thank you guys... my room doesn't have any opening.. so I figure one is enough then?? Will two be overkilled?

Again, I don't think you'll be disappointed!

millerwill, I've known Mark Seaton long enough to know for certain I will not be disappointed , the question is just how impressed will I be ? What I am hoping for is that I am hugely impressed , so much so that it is bordering on being shocked. :D


Worst case scenario: The Submersive is an very sweet subwoofer, tons of SQ and SPLs, I love it ! :D

Best case scenario: OMFG!!! WOW!!! I don't know what to say!! :D:confused::cool::D:D

Thank you guys... my room doesn't have any opening.. so I figure one is enough then?? Will two be overkilled?

There is no such thing as overkill. That said, you can always try one, and if you find yourself wanting for more, you can add a second one.

My room is slightly larger than yours and I am very happy with one. The only reason I would want to add more is the smooth out the room response further using less EQ. The output of just one handles any movie at playback levels I can stand to watch at, which is usually just a touch below reference.

millerwill, I've known Mark Seaton long enough to know for certain I will not be disappointed , the question is just how impressed will I be ? What I am hoping for is that I am hugely impressed , so much so that it is bordering on being shocked. :D


Worst case scenario: The Submersive is an very sweet subwoofer, tons of SQ and SPLs, I love it ! :D

Best case scenario: OMFG!!! WOW!!! I don't know what to say!! :D:confused::cool::D:D

I look forward to hearing your reaction.

All I can say about my submersive is WOW!!

The Finding Nemo, scene with the little girl tapping on the aquarium will knock you out of your chair. Also, the submarine hitting the wall. Master and Commander,,,, BOOOM
and clean...
Thanks Mark

All I can say about my submersive is WOW!!

The Finding Nemo, scene with the little girl tapping on the aquarium will knock you out of your chair. Also, the submarine hitting the wall. Master and Commander,,,, BOOOM
and clean...
Thanks Mark

the fish tank scene in finding nemo is nice but there is some really incredible bass when nemo's dad and ellen get swallowed by the whale (the initial swallowing and again while inside the whale has some awesome bass). that whole movie is a cool surround sound demo

All I can say about my submersive is WOW!!

The Finding Nemo, scene with the little girl tapping on the aquarium will knock you out of your chair. Also, the submarine hitting the wall. Master and Commander,,,, BOOOM
and clean...
Thanks Mark

Here is a waterfall chart of the scene where Darla taps on the glass.

The blu-ray version of Finding Nemo is in the works so the bass will only get better with a hi-def audio track :)


http://www.svsound.com/pix/colorbassyscenes/darlatapsglass2.jpg

Don't forget when the sub starts to slide. That is a great scene as well.
And to 95, you will probably be pretty happy with the results you get with one. Like fine said, you can get another one if you feel it would help with room issues or you just want to put the pettal to the metal :).
And to James, I don't think you will be disapointed either. Can't wait to hear some detailed thoughts on all the owners out here.

nemo's dad and ellen

Marlin and Dorey! I agree with the sentiment though. Darla scene is a fun demo that tests subs capabilities, but the whale scenes are where a good sub can enhance the experience and make you feel like you are there.

Don't forget when the sub starts to slide. That is a great scene as well.
And to 95, you will probably be pretty happy with the results you get with one. Like fine said, you can get another one if you feel it would help with room issues or you just want to put the pettal to the metal :).
And to James, I don't think you will be disapointed either. Can't wait to hear some detailed thoughts on all the owners out here.

That scene hits the lowest note on my REL. Maybe it is the lowest in the film..?

Ok guys,

I am going to be getting a Submersive in October. I know it has been discussed but I would like to see what you guys recommend for an EQ. I obviously would like to spend as little as possible but can spend what I need to. One caveat, I have no lap top and REW and BFD just seems to be beyond my comprehension:mad:

I guess the ones that I have seen listed on these forums are the SMS-1, the Anti-Mode 8033, and the new one from SVSound. I would include the EQ1 by ED but I am afraid I might be getting what I pay for at $100.

The next question I have for those who use the Submersive with no EQ. I would like to know how necessary it really is. I have lots of low end room gain and I certainly have a few peaks and valleys as well. I have, in a 30 Hz span, about 15 db of variance.

So, if it wouldn't pain you gents too much, I would like some feedback.

Ok guys,

I am going to be getting a Submersive in October. I know it has been discussed but I would like to see what you guys recommend for an EQ. I obviously would like to spend as little as possible but can spend what I need to. One caveat, I have no lap top and REW and BFD just seems to be beyond my comprehension:mad:

I guess the ones that I have seen listed on these forums are the SMS-1, the Anti-Mode 8033, and the new one from SVSound. I would include the EQ1 by ED but I am afraid I might be getting what I pay for at $100.

The next question I have for those who use the Submersive with no EQ. I would like to know how necessary it really is. I have lots of low end room gain and I certainly have a few peaks and valleys as well. I have, in a 30 Hz span, about 15 db of variance.

So, if it wouldn't pain you gents too much, I would like some feedback.

click this link.VVV

EQ for Submersive (http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3532050)

Every subwoofer benefits to some degree from equalization. My Submersive will be here this week and an EQ is the last thing on my mind. I am just gonna play with my Submersive and see what she can do. I'll look into EQs when that need becomes clear

Ok guys,

I am going to be getting a Submersive in October. I know it has been discussed but I would like to see what you guys recommend for an EQ. I obviously would like to spend as little as possible but can spend what I need to. One caveat, I have no lap top and REW and BFD just seems to be beyond my comprehension:mad:

I guess the ones that I have seen listed on these forums are the SMS-1, the Anti-Mode 8033, and the new one from SVSound. I would include the EQ1 by ED but I am afraid I might be getting what I pay for at $100.

The next question I have for those who use the Submersive with no EQ. I would like to know how necessary it really is. I have lots of low end room gain and I certainly have a few peaks and valleys as well. I have, in a 30 Hz span, about 15 db of variance.

So, if it wouldn't pain you gents too much, I would like some feedback.


There is also the BFD family from behringer which start at about $100 and give you more flexibility than the EQ.2 and the SMS1. Unlike the SMS/SVS/or Antimode it does not include a measurement system/mic. So its a not a set it and forget it setup. It takes time. The cheapest of the push button solution is the antimode....

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-656&FTR=BFD&CFID=13003216&CFTOKEN=16786629

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

Sean

The next question I have for those who use the Submersive with no EQ. I would like to know how necessary it really is. I have lots of low end room gain and I certainly have a few peaks and valleys as well. I have, in a 30 Hz span, about 15 db of variance.

The need for an EQ does not really vary between subwoofers, assuming they are in the same possition. The question is how necessary is EQ in your room, and you seem to answer that question. If your 15 db of variance is over wide bands and and not just a narrow single note null, i would think the investment in EQ will be well worth it.

About the necessity of EQ for the submersive, this is entirely dependent on how the sub will integrate within your room.

If it sounds good to your ear you can do without EQ. But without some form of measurement you can't be really be sure how good/bad the situation really is.

I finally watched cloverfield, not an alwful movie, felt like I was right there with the submersive. This sub makes movie watching unbelievably better. I would say that it is the most enjoyable upgrade I have made along with my fpj1.

My four certainly light up my room. :D I recommend Valkarie ,the opening scene and the basement bombing.

Art

Ok guys,

The next question I have for those who use the Submersive with no EQ. I would like to know how necessary it really is. I have lots of low end room gain and I certainly have a few peaks and valleys as well. I have, in a 30 Hz span, about 15 db of variance.

So, if it wouldn't pain you gents too much, I would like some feedback.


What subwoofer do you currently have and what's the size of your room?

Ok guys,

I am going to be getting a Submersive in October. I know it has been discussed but I would like to see what you guys recommend for an EQ. I obviously would like to spend as little as possible but can spend what I need to. One caveat, I have no lap top and REW and BFD just seems to be beyond my comprehension:mad:

I guess the ones that I have seen listed on these forums are the SMS-1, the Anti-Mode 8033, and the new one from SVSound. I would include the EQ1 by ED but I am afraid I might be getting what I pay for at $100.

The next question I have for those who use the Submersive with no EQ. I would like to know how necessary it really is. I have lots of low end room gain and I certainly have a few peaks and valleys as well. I have, in a 30 Hz span, about 15 db of variance.

So, if it wouldn't pain you gents too much, I would like some feedback.

I've had my SubMersive for a couple of weeks now (and like others, LOVE it), and here's my take on eq'ing (from someone who is 'intermediate' in av experience/skills).

If you have Audyssey MultEQ XT in your AVR, you are probably OK with its eq. This is certainly the simplest route if you don't want to do any hands on eq work. The 8033 is probably the next step up from this. These 'give you what you get', i.e., no hands on tweaking.

A Behringer, with computer connection, is the opposite limit--almost complete flexibility, but you need a mike, a sound card for your PC, and a great deal of learning and experience. I played around with a BFD for over a year with my previous sub, with some success, but I found it painful and not completely satisfying. (Again, I'm not at the higher skill level in all this!)

For me, the SMS-1 is the ideal intermediate solution. It is a complete package--mike, electronics, display. You just stick it in between your AVR and sub, and are in business. And it allows plenty of hands on tweaking for me; the 'instant feedback' of what happens with each change is pricless. At ~ $430, it is probably twice the cost of what you can put together a BFD, sound card, mike (assuming you have a pc) set up for, but for me it's well worth it. (I actually do use Audyssey XT first, and find it to do pretty good, but the SMS-1 improves it, and having the 'instant display' is still a big plus.)

Anyway, just my experience.

For me, the SMS-1 is the ideal intermediate solution. It is a complete package--mike, electronics, display. You just stick it in between your AVR and sub, and are in business. And it allows plenty of hands on tweaking for me; the 'instant feedback' of what happens with each change is pricless.

The SMS-1 display itself is not a completely accurate reflection of what you're seeing because the response is way too course.

Another thing is that simply achieving a flat graph isn't enough. You can hit 10 flat graphs and each graph could subjectively sound completely different because the filters used did not target the center frequency and you've inadvertently added ringing where none existed before. I used to own an SMS-1 and after hitting several peaks down to flat, the bass was subjectively softer sounding but also more boomy.

Not saying that everyone will experience this but I'm saying that it's not as simple as just hitting a flat graph. The Anti-mode on the other hand works in the frequency and time domains and you just push 2 buttons and you get results within 1-2 minutes. The results that John PM at HTS (this guy is legendary at using an EQ device and is the author of REW) achieved within several hours were replicated within 1-2 minutes by the 8033. Also the Anti-mode was reviewed at AVforums where it was pitted against the SMS-1, the AS-EQ1 and BFD and the results in terms of ringing was pretty clear.

And it costs a lot less than $430. And it's easier to use. And it's smaller. And it uses a lot more filters than the SMS-1. And, and, the resolution of those filters are much higher resolution. :) Although the one thing I'll definitely miss with the SMS-1 is that remote control. That was nice.

Regards,

The SMS-1 display itself is not a completely accurate reflection of what you're seeing because the response is way too course.

Another thing is that simply achieving a flat graph isn't enough. You can hit 10 flat graphs and each graph could subjectively sound completely different because the filters used did not target the center frequency and you've inadvertently added ringing where none existed before. I used to own an SMS-1 and after hitting several peaks down to flat, the bass was subjectively softer sounding but also more boomy.

Not saying that everyone will experience this but I'm saying that it's not as simple as just hitting a flat graph. The Anti-mode on the other hand works in the frequency and time domains and you just push 2 buttons and you get results within 1-2 minutes. The results that John PM at HTS (this guy is legendary at using an EQ device and is the author of REW) achieved within several hours were replicated within 1-2 minutes by the 8033. Also the Anti-mode was reviewed at AVforums where it was pitted against the SMS-1, the AS-EQ1 and BFD and the results in terms of ringing was pretty clear.

And it costs a lot less than $430. And it's easier to use. And it's smaller. And it uses a lot more filters than the SMS-1. And, and, the resolution of those filters are much higher resolution. :) Although the one thing I'll definitely miss with the SMS-1 is that remote control. That was nice.

Regards,

Yes, many different opinions/experience on this, which I well appreciate. FWIW, since I do use MultEQ XT first, the SMS-1's modifications are modest refinements. But being able to SEE what the results look like (yes, only in frequency space**) is extremely helpful.

**With phase information--which the SMS allows--frequency and time info contain the same information (remember Fourier transforms).

The SMS-1 display itself is not a completely accurate reflection of what you're seeing because the response is way too course.

Another thing is that simply achieving a flat graph isn't enough. You can hit 10 flat graphs and each graph could subjectively sound completely different because the filters used did not target the center frequency and you've inadvertently added ringing where none existed before. I used to own an SMS-1 and after hitting several peaks down to flat, the bass was subjectively softer sounding but also more boomy.

Not saying that everyone will experience this but I'm saying that it's not as simple as just hitting a flat graph. The Anti-mode on the other hand works in the frequency and time domains and you just push 2 buttons and you get results within 1-2 minutes. The results that John PM at HTS (this guy is legendary at using an EQ device and is the author of REW) achieved within several hours were replicated within 1-2 minutes by the 8033. Also the Anti-mode was reviewed at AVforums where it was pitted against the SMS-1, the AS-EQ1 and BFD and the results in terms of ringing was pretty clear.

And it costs a lot less than $430. And it's easier to use. And it's smaller. And it uses a lot more filters than the SMS-1. And, and, the resolution of those filters are much higher resolution. :) Although the one thing I'll definitely miss with the SMS-1 is that remote control. That was nice.

Regards,

I've been switching back and forth between using an SMS-1 and an Antimode 8033M on the various subs I've owned the last couple years (PB12NSD, dual VTF3.3, Conquest, dual PB13, now Submersive is here to stay!) and in each case proper EQ was equivalent to a subwoofer upgrade, it really is the finishing touch in getting the best sound possible from any sub (along with bass traps). I too love the ease of tweaking with the SMS-1 and the instant graphical feedback, but like Goneten I have also noticed the 8033M produces the cleanest sounding bass compared to the SMS-1. With the 8033 the bass sounds tighter, more defined, more musical, no sense of overhang or ringing. And it's ridiculously fast and easy to use.

Cheers,
Ross

Yes, many different opinions/experience on this, which I well appreciate. FWIW, since I do use MultEQ XT first, the SMS-1's modifications are modest refinements. But being able to SEE what the results look like (yes, only in frequency space**) is extremely helpful.

**With phase information--which the SMS allows--frequency and time info contain the same information (remember Fourier transforms).

Millerwill, I have found MultEQ XT distance calculations to be deadly accurate at perfectly integrating the time arrival of my subs with the mains as it takes into account all internal component delays in the chain. If you have not done so yet try running just the first Audyssey measurement at your main seating position with the SMS-1 in the loop and hit calculate, but then don't save it, just look at the distance it set for the subwoofer and make a note of it, then cancel the Audyssey setup so it does not override your previous settings. Manually enter that new sub distance in and you will have even better sound from your Submersive as MultEQ will have accounted for the delay of the SMS-1 and given you perfect time integration. The difference is noticed to my ears as the sub completely and naturally disappears into the sound stage on both movies and music.

Cheers,
Ross

Millerwill, I have found MultEQ XT distance calculations to be deadly accurate at perfectly integrating the time arrival of my subs with the mains as it takes into account all internal component delays in the chain. If you have not done so yet try running just the first Audyssey measurement at your main seating position with the SMS-1 in the loop and hit calculate, but then don't save it, just look at the distance it set for the subwoofer and make a note of it, then cancel the Audyssey setup so it does not override your previous settings. Manually enter that new sub distance in and you will have even better sound from your Submersive as MultEQ will have accounted for the delay of the SMS-1 and given you perfect time integration. The difference is noticed to my ears as the sub completely and naturally disappears into the sound stage on both movies and music.

Cheers,
Ross

Thanks for the tips, though I'm not sure I exactly follow what you recommend. What I've done (from my interpretation of one of Mark's posts above) is first to run Audyssey, with the SMS-1 in the loop but with all filters set to 0 (e.g., in preset 5--i.e., NOT in preset 6 pass-through). The Audyssey speaker distances are all spot on, except (as usual) for the sub; it sets the sub distance as 15 ft, while it's actually about ~10 ft. But as Mark (and Audyssey, too) say, one should not be concerned about this.

And Audyssey does fairly well at knocking down the main room peaks, though some still remain. This is then when I start putting in some SMS filters.

The result seems good to me, though I've probably too inexperienced to judge just how ideal it is.

Thanks for the tips, though I'm not sure I exactly follow what you recommend. What I've done (from my interpretation of one of Mark's posts above) is first to run Audyssey, with the SMS-1 in the loop but with all filters set to 0 (e.g., in preset 5--i.e., NOT in preset 6 pass-through). The Audyssey speaker distances are all spot on, except (as usual) for the sub; it sets the sub distance as 15 ft, while it's actually about ~10 ft. But as Mark (and Audyssey, too) say, one should not be concerned about this.

And Audyssey does fairly well at knocking down the main room peaks, though some still remain. This is then when I start putting in some SMS filters.

The result seems good to me, though I've probably too inexperienced to judge just how ideal it is.

Oh cool, then I think you have nailed it, it did not occur to me that you had the SMS-1 in the chain when you initially did your Audyssey setup.

Cheers,
Ross

I too love the ease of tweaking with the SMS-1 and the instant graphical feedback, but like Goneten I have also noticed the 8033M produces the cleanest sounding bass compared to the SMS-1.

Just to clarify, I don't own the Anti-mode but measurements don't lie and so far the Anti-mode seems to be the winner in reducing long decay times. The reviewer at AVforums made several important points, one of which is that a flat response in itself does not mean anything if those decay times are long. One can have long decay times with a flat response. With the SMS-1, you'll never know because you'll never 'see' it.

What I like about the Anti-mode is that it seems to give the best reduction in ringing times of all the EQ devices tested (so far) and this is reflected by your subjective impressions (ie that the bass sounds tighter and more responsive).

Regards,

How does it reduce decay times? I thought the only way to do that is bass traps?

How does it reduce decay times? I thought the only way to do that is bass traps?

Correct choice of EQ parameters allows the resonant effect of a mode (the poles of it's response, to use system theory jargon ) to be exactly countered by zeroes in the EQ response. It's all about the poles, man. :D

The EQ filter has poles of it's own, but for a filter which cuts rather than boosts those poles have a lower decay time than those of the mode it is countering. The net effect is to replace the long decay of the mode (at the mode's center frequency) by the shorter decay of the filter.

If this is done correctly then the decay times can be reduced. If not then the ringing will be made worse. Hence if you are using a BFD or any other manual EQ device and the filters applied do not target the center frequencies precisely then you can make things worse. Sometimes much worse.

Problem, of course, is that EQ can't reduce the decay times in all positions within a room at the same time. Often you can reduce ringing in one location but it's made worse in another. The advantage of bass traps is that it will reduce decay times everywhere. But it won't be able to tackle decay times at very low frequencies unless the treatment was designed to address those issues, like a helmholtz resonator.

Regards,

OK I see, thanks.

My four certainly light up my room. :D I recommend Valkarie ,the opening scene and the basement bombing.

Art

I agree, just saw that the other day, first time my wife has ever looked at me and said, "that was a good one" after one particular explosion

So how much is the USD total with shipping for the Anti-Mode 8033 ?

Mark, have you used an 8033 ? Has any of you Submersive owners tried the new SVS EQ ?

Based on the last few posts in this thread on the 8033 , it looks pretty sweet.

So how much is the USD total with shipping for the Anti-Mode 8033 ?

You'd probably get more first-hand information if you enter the Web Shop from here http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-8033.shtml

Looks like its 271 Euros shipped. Not that it is alot of money but that much will buy a number of different subwoofer EQs. I think I am gonna wait as my subwoofer position is pretty good , the only reason I will buy an EQ is to get the most out of my Submersive.

No point in getting everything now and having the Submersive @ near 100% of its performance capabilities right out of the gate. I wanna save a little fun for later on. :)





BTW 271 Euros = 384.4135 U.S. dollars

All I know is I cannot get my mind off of Mr. Seaton's Catalyst speakers, they are way more than I can afford at $3500 a piece however I just know they go stupid stupid loud and stay super super clean.

Even if I could afford some Catalysts it would be the same as if I could afford a 2010 Nissan GT-R at $85,000 & 485hp its a bad mofo.

Anyhow even if I could afford a GT-R I would not because I will USE ALL OF WHAT THAT CAR HAS TO OFFER every chance I got , and in no time flat id be in big trouble, wreckless driving , speeding tickets etc etc etc nope.


And if I could afford a set of Catalysts id be deaf very fast because I would use everything they have to offer every chance I got. I have been to 20+ concerts when I was growing up and I have always used my audio gear, every subwoofer I have ever owned has seen its limits at some point or another. But just to its limits because I like it loud but its gotta be clean as a whistle and accurate. :D ;)



(btw I aint deaf but if you ever talk to me your gonna get alot of Whats? and Huhs? All those concerts and my love for loud has done some damage over the years. :p)

James,

If someone who has hearing damage would not equalizing their system flat, but have it vary to make up for their hearing deficiencies, I think they might find that they don't have to play their audio quite so loud. What this would take is to go to have your hearing checked and have them give you a copy of what frequencies are showing up lower than others and by how much. Then get an equalizer that you can adjust and using REW, design your own custom curve to match the inverse of your hearing response. As long as nobody else is trying to listen, you'll might hear better than you have for years. Of course getting hearing aids would do the same thing, but I don't know how accurate they can correct the sound and any side effects. Just a thought.

James,

If someone who has hearing damage would not equalizing their system flat, but have it vary to make up for their hearing deficiencies, I think they might find that they don't have to play their audio quite so loud. What this would take is to go to have your hearing checked and have them give you a copy of what frequencies are showing up lower than others and by how much. Then get an equalizer that you can adjust and using REW, design your own custom curve to match the inverse of your hearing response. As long as nobody else is trying to listen, you'll might hear better than you have for years. Of course getting hearing aids would do the same thing, but I don't know how accurate they can correct the sound and any side effects. Just a thought.

Jim. I aint that hard of hearing ...., well yet anyways. :) All I was saying if I got the Catalysts my hearing would certainly get worse.

And even if I put together an EQ curve to match my current hearing , that would not get my finger off the volume knob. :)

And even if I put together an EQ curve to match my current hearing , that would not get my finger off the volume knob. :)

I'm also afraid that it wouldn't sound very good to anyone else. Most hearing loss is in the high frequencies anyway. This conversation needs to be in the Catalyst thread !

;):D

you need a THX certified hearing aid

I've been switching back and forth between using an SMS-1 and an Antimode 8033M on the various subs I've owned the last couple years (PB12NSD, dual VTF3.3, Conquest, dual PB13, now Submersive is here to stay!) and in each case proper EQ was equivalent to a subwoofer upgrade, it really is the finishing touch in getting the best sound possible from any sub (along with bass traps). I too love the ease of tweaking with the SMS-1 and the instant graphical feedback, but like Goneten I have also noticed the 8033M produces the cleanest sounding bass compared to the SMS-1. With the 8033 the bass sounds tighter, more defined, more musical, no sense of overhang or ringing. And it's ridiculously fast and easy to use.

Cheers,
Ross

Thanks Rossandwendy,

I put a lot of weight behind what you think of the submersive because you have had some incredible subs to compare it with. I am hoping that it is a significant upgrade from the M&K MX 350 used in tandem with my 12" Dayton Titanic MKlll in a vented box. I get around 115 db at LP, 13 feet from the subs.

I really am torn between the SMS-1 and the anti-mode 8033. Does the Anti-mode come with everything needed ie...mic etc? Also, what kind of SPL do you get with you Submersive?

I really am torn between the SMS-1 and the anti-mode 8033.

Go get the 8033. Yes, it does have everything included. :)

Regards,

Thanks Rossandwendy,

I put a lot of weight behind what you think of the submersive because you have had some incredible subs to compare it with. I am hoping that it is a significant upgrade from the M&K MX 350 used in tandem with my 12" Dayton Titanic MKlll in a vented box. I get around 115 db at LP, 13 feet from the subs.

I really am torn between the SMS-1 and the anti-mode 8033. Does the Anti-mode come with everything needed ie...mic etc? Also, what kind of SPL do you get with you Submersive?

I've enjoyed the various subs I've had, but not one of them was as balanced in overall capabilities as the SubMersive - its combination of accuracy, extended response, stunning dynamics, and agility have made it a keeper in my system and completely put to rest my subwoofer upgraditis. Once properly dialed in as any sub should be (and getting the time arrival with the mains is critical to my ears - the calculated sub distance by Audyssey in my Denon 3808 totally nails this), the SubMersive has disappeared as a distinct sound source and bass is smoothly and naturally integrated into the soundstage. As far as max SPL, I quit doing measurements several months ago because I finally started to simply enjoy watching movies rather than tweaking, but one of the last times I had my meter out I got 117db at the listening position 11 feet away on a very difficult section of Flight Of The Phoenix lossless Blu-ray track. I have no need nor interest in going louder, but if I did I would add a second SubMersive, no doubt at all. Mark Seaton has a sterling reputation among people who truly are experts in the world of subwoofers and I'm convinced there is not a better designer working today when it comes to delivering real-world results rather than hype.

It has been a tough call for me on the AntiMode 8033 vs. SMS-1 which is why I have kept both for two years. The SMS-1 has that great display on your monitor and lets you tweak to your heart's content especially with being able to bump up the valleys a bit. However, the 8033 saves tons of time with the set-and-forget approach and it most definitely is more accurate with nailing the modes/peaks, resulting in a tighter, cleaner, more accurate sound. The new EQ from SVS should also be considered, it will have the ringing-defeating accuracy of the 8033 and will boost the dips to a large extent so probably an even flatter response, but it's more money and a bit more involved setup than the 8033.

Cheers,
Ross

The new EQ from SVS should also be considered, it will have the ringing-defeating accuracy of the 8033 and will boost the valleys to a large extent so probably an even flatter response, but it's more money and a bit more involved setup than the 8033.

Interesting. I assumed the AS-EQ1 would only cut rather than boost.

Regards,

Ross, do you plan on trying an SVS EQ ? Do you know of any review/comparisons of the 8033 vs the SVS EQ ?

I appreciate your input, sounds like the 8033 is a nice piece.


thanks

Interesting. I assumed the AS-EQ1 would only cut rather than boost.


If you look at the many before and after graphs that have been posted here and on other forums the AS-EQ1 is raising the levels of most dips, sometimes significantly. It may be doing this by raising the overall gain and just reducing peaks, but the effect is boosting dips and cutting peaks for a targeted flat response.

Ross, do you plan on trying an SVS EQ ? Do you know of any review/comparisons of the 8033 vs the SVS EQ ?

I appreciate your input, sounds like the 8033 is a nice piece.


thanks

I had an AS-EQ1 on order but recently canceled it due to my wife being uncomfortable with further audio purchases in this tough economy. I am still interested in trying one and may in the future after the savings account gets built up more, but right now the 8033 is doing such a great job I am not feeling desperate for a new EQ.

GIK Tri-Traps were another huge improvement to my room acoustics, I highly recommend them or similar.

GIK Tri-Traps were another huge improvement to my room acoustics, I highly recommend them or similar.

The Tri-traps made a nice improvement in my room as well. Especially when I stacked them from floor to ceiling, the lower bass tightened up nicely. However I feel that I still could use a lot more bass trapping.

It never ends. I need more bass control for the rear of my room, then it's the wall-ceiling corners, floor-wall corners...etc. The bass in my room hasn't achieved that 'sharpness' factor where the note literally stops dead with little to no overhang and sounds 'crisp'.

Hopefully I'll be able to experience that.

Regards,

Do you know of any review/comparisons of the 8033 vs the SVS EQ ?

Yes. AVforums : http://www.avforums.com/forums/subwoofers/1053227-eq.htmlhttp://www.avforums.com/forums/subwoofers/1053227-eq.html

The reviewer tested the Anti-mode, SVS AS-EQ1, SMS-1 and BFD. He forgot to add the Audyssey Sub Equalizer. :) If you do a search you'll find a separate review on the 8033.

Regards,

working AVforums link (http://www.avforums.com/forums/subwoofers/1053227-eq.html)


btw thanks for posting that AVforums thread, it is an interesting read.

I have the SubMersive running off of an extension power socket. On the same extension power socket, I also have a mini fridge running. Whenever the mini fridge switches off, I get a thud from the SubMersive. Is this harmful to the SubMersive in any way?

I have the SubMersive running off of an extension power socket. On the same extension power socket, I also have a mini fridge running. Whenever the mini fridge switches off, I get a thud from the SubMersive. Is this harmful to the SubMersive in any way?
I think your combination is basically a bad idea... electrical equipment (in this case the mini fridge) are much more crude/severe drawing from power supply sockets than are electronic equipment (in this case the SubMersive.)

I'd suggest you do not waste an extra second separating the two, no matter how clean the power supply line may be or might have been.

I've enjoyed the various subs I've had, but not one of them was as balanced in overall capabilities as the SubMersive - its combination of accuracy, extended response, stunning dynamics, and agility have made it a keeper in my system and completely put to rest my subwoofer upgraditis. Once properly dialed in as any sub should be (and getting the time arrival with the mains is critical to my ears - the calculated sub distance by Audyssey in my Denon 3808 totally nails this), the SubMersive has disappeared as a distinct sound source and bass is smoothly and naturally integrated into the soundstage. As far as max SPL, I quit doing measurements several months ago because I finally started to simply enjoy watching movies rather than tweaking, but one of the last times I had my meter out I got 117db at the listening position 11 feet away on a very difficult section of Flight Of The Phoenix lossless Blu-ray track. I have no need nor interest in going louder, but if I did I would add a second SubMersive, no doubt at all. Mark Seaton has a sterling reputation among people who truly are experts in the world of subwoofers and I'm convinced there is not a better designer working today when it comes to delivering real-world results rather than hype.

It has been a tough call for me on the AntiMode 8033 vs. SMS-1 which is why I have kept both for two years. The SMS-1 has that great display on your monitor and lets you tweak to your heart's content especially with being able to bump up the valleys a bit. However, the 8033 saves tons of time with the set-and-forget approach and it most definitely is more accurate with nailing the modes/peaks, resulting in a tighter, cleaner, more accurate sound. The new EQ from SVS should also be considered, it will have the ringing-defeating accuracy of the 8033 and will boost the valleys to a large extent so probably an even flatter response, but it's more money and a bit more involved setup than the 8033.

Cheers,
Ross

Ross, do you run the Audyssey first then Antimode or vice versa?

Ross, do you run the Audyssey first then Antimode or vice versa?

I run the 8033 first, then run only the first measurement in Audyssey at the main LP and calculate so I can see and manually input its recommended distance settings, and then I cancel the setup and keep Audyssey off because so far, even after careful by-the-book 8-point measurements, I still have not been a fan of how Audyssey MultEQ XT changes the overall sound of my system. Some listeners whose ears I trust tell me the Audyssey Pro version sounds much better and more refined so I may shell out the bucks for that at some point in the future.

Hey Ross, My Onkyo TX-SR805 has Audyssey MultEQ XT , I generally run it for 3 positions then I go in and 'adjust' the crossover frequencies & speaker distances. Anyhow , I thought that is all the Audyssey does, is there something else it does?

BTW my Submersive is out for delivery. :)

Hey Ross, My Onkyo TX-SR805 has Audyssey MultEQ XT , I generally run it for 3 positions then I go in and 'adjust' the crossover frequencies & speaker distances. Anyhow , I thought that is all the Audyssey does, is there something else it does?

BTW my Submersive is out for delivery. :)

James, Audyssey does much more than simply set distances, levels, etc. It's a complete room eq system, setting filters (based on the time response to its impulse signals), eqing not only the sub but all the freq spectrum. I also have the 805, and run Audyssey using all 8 mike positions.

Many very experienced people feel that Audyssey eq's better than any other system, though there is of course not universal agreement on this. So try it out and see how you like it!

Thanks millerwill , I may as well set up my Submersive with Audyssey today since I have been very happy with my systems sounds since the day I got my 805 about a year ago. Ive never NOT used Audyssey with my 805.

And sorry to go off topic for a sec but I consider my 805 to be the best bang for the buck purchased ive ever made for an HT purchase and ive had this hobby for many years and have had 8-10 receivers.

Hi James,

I agree with Bill on this....

I highly recommend trying audessy. I did have issues with it making the bass wimpy in 2 of my 3 configs. Its a hit or miss thing with the 805. some rooms seem to excite this issue. This issue was corrected in the 806/876 with a new and improved mic. I have validated this in the same room with the same setup.

one work around if you like what audessy does to the rest of the spectrum but feel the bass is weak. is run audessy with the sub off and then add sub back in afterwords.... Chris from audessy says this is not supposed to work but with my 805 my ears beg to differ.

audessy has always improved the imaging in my systems. Less so with the sparks as it has with the mirages, x-statics or strata-minis.

The 805 was definetely a great value purchase especially my refurb at $500 but I also feel the same way about the 876. I love the additional audessy, the improved mic and the Silicon Optix REON really makes all my video content noticeably better....

glad to hear your sub has arrived....

Sean

Here are some pics of my new Submersive.
First thing I did was modify the feet with felt pads. ;)
Audyssey set it -15db , it has always set my MFW-15 between -5 to -6.5db. Quite a big difference. I have the Submersive gain up to about 1/2 way,so 10 . I adjusted Audyssey to -10db.
Then I sat in my easy chair and listened to a bunch of different music. You can see my tools in my chair, SPL meter, ipod touch set up on remote so I can change the music on itunes on my iMac which is hooked up via Airtunes to my Onkyo 805. I saw Taylor Swift in May, her picture has to be repositioned after every movie when it sat on my MFW-15, the pic ain't moved a quarter inch on the Submersive, so far anyways. Yes I took that pic of her sitting down, singing.

Cherry Twist ; Crystal Method, I am not sure what those hard hitting bass notes are at but I was measuring 112db on those notes that hit at the beginning of that song.

Welp , I got alot of listening to do. later guys.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0145.jpg?t=1250630990
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0147.jpg?t=1250631042
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0149.jpg?t=1250631085
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0152.jpg?t=1250631129
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0153.jpg?t=1250631166
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0154.jpg?t=1250631203
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0155.jpg?t=1250631259

Good for you James! Great pics...

I've been so busy with getting my kids ready for back-to-school that I haven't actually put any filters, etc. in my EQ for the SubMersive or even listened to it over the last 4 days... :(

Looking forward to your experiences after you've had some time to listen/tweak, etc.

So far, my kids have all told me that they think it is easily the best our system has sounded (xbox 360 COD4 & 5 and Halo 3 and some movie demos). :cool:

Wow. Nice pics. But I think we need more. :D

Hopefully you will be blown away by this thing. We both own (or owned) the MFW-15 and we know the sound well, so just listen to a few songs then report back and tell me if you think it's a 150%-300% improvement. :)

Regards,

Congrats on the new Submersive! Your pics show that eventhough the sub is an earthmover, it can blend in nicely with your decor. Enjoy.

Yes indeed, James--look great! And I'm sure you're enjoying it.

I thought it was esp neat that it was packed upside down. It made it so simple and easy to then tip it over on it side, slide it out, and then tip up onto its feet. A one person job even for this monster.

- 15 db is the max adjustment for Denon receivers (if that is what you have) so in actuality it most likely is a totally useless number to start from. Also the SubMersive starts from 0 and goes to -38(?) gain I believe.

Hmmm I bet that fire place will rattle!

Also, what are those black cloth things covering up the drivers?????

Hmmm I bet that fire place will rattle!

Also, what are those black cloth things covering up the drivers?????

you have a very very good point there, I dont think I have ever seen those black cloth things covering the drivers, what are they for and how did you get them:eek::D

Hmmm I bet that fire place will rattle!

Also, what are those black cloth things covering up the drivers?????



Ah no, its actually a pretty solid and well made fireplace.

2. Those are magnetic black cloth grills are pretty nifty, I normally have them on all of my speakers but take em off once in awhile just for a change.
The Submersive's will come off once in awhile.


BTW guys , I only had a little time to listen , I had to leave and got back late last night , its almost 1am PST now. Anyhow, I will get some quality listening in today , after I get some rest. ;)

I gotta get to bed.

JWJ,

Your SubMersive stands pretty neat and elegant there, especially as presented in the 3rd image ... what with no protruding wires et al. :)

Looking forward to reading your review/listening impressions.

Great pictures. That is a very nice looking room. can't wait to hear some more thoughts.

Hey guys, I just wanna let you all know that I want to be sure I have the Submersive dialed in properly and after I am sure its good then I need a good number of hours listening time, 10 hours or so. So its gonna be a week or so before I say anything at all about the Submersive.

I'll give you guys a quickie for now.........
It is clear to me that the Submersive is reference quality, going to it from an MFW-15 is not just like a huge step up but rather its like going to another game altogether.

- 15 db is the max adjustment for Denon receivers (if that is what you have) so in actuality it most likely is a totally useless number to start from. Also the SubMersive starts from 0 and goes to -38(?) gain I believe.

He has an onkyo 805 which -15 is the max so you need to turn the gain down on the submersive some more...

Sean

Hey guys, I just wanna let you all know that I want to be sure I have the Submersive dialed in properly and after I am sure its good then I need a good number of hours listening time, 10 hours or so. So its gonna be a week or so before I say anything at all about the Submersive.

I'll give you guys a quickie for now.........
It is clear to me that the Submersive is reference quality, going to it from an MFW-15 is not just like a huge step up but rather its like going to another game altogether.

Wait till you get it dialed in and really have a chance to stretch its legs....

Sean

It is clear to me that the Submersive is reference quality, going to it from an MFW-15 is not just like a huge step up but rather its like going to another game altogether.

I am sorry to hear you are dissapointed with your purchase. :D

Here are a few more pics, I wanted some more as the Submersive looks pretty brown in the pics I took. It is a Red Cherry, which is Cherry that was stained red.
It is darker than my Rosewood veneered speakers but it goes with them nicely.

Yes ity is the most expensive finish option on the Submersive but let me tell you this, it was very well done. My Submersive is like a fine piece of furniture.
Good job Mark!! :cool:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0157.jpg?t=1250704782

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0160.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0164.jpg

Wow.
That angle/lighting really changes the look.
Nice though.

Can anyone compare the Submersive finish to SVS finish -- not a sonic comparison, just finish?

I (and wife) was more concerned about finish when the sub was sitting in a well lit family room. Now that I have a dedicated bat cave it is less of an issue. Still, a nice finish is still nice to have.

Mike

Thanks for the extra pictures James. That looks really great.

BTW, I received my Antimode 8033 today. Only 3 days to get to PA. from Finland. Not bad at all. I'll play with it tonight and let you know how it goes. :)

Chris

Thanks for the extra pictures James. That looks really great.

+1


i'm also waiting to see how craig john is making out with his new pair

Thanks for the extra pictures James. That looks really great.

BTW, I received my Antimode 8033 today. Only 3 days to get to PA. from Finland. Not bad at all. I'll play with it tonight and let you know how it goes. :)

Chris

Cool Chris! I'm interested also...

I've been getting my kids back to school and celebrating my 19th anniversary so I've only mangaged to get the DSP-30 in the chain successfully, but I haven't ventured to add any filters or phasing yet.

However, I did have a bunch of teenagers over yesterday to watch the Dark Knight on Blu-ray as part of my kid's back-to-school bash. One of the boys told me that he thought the explosions were "really cool", but what impressed him most was when a motorcycle started up in a certain scene. "You couldn't really hear it, but it was freaking cool to have my pants flapping like crazy! I could feel the air blowing!" Pretty sweet for a sealed sub, eh?!

Moments like that are pretty fun for a Dad... Way to make me my kid's hero for one more reason, Mark! :cool:

Wow.
That angle/lighting really changes the look.
Nice though.

Can anyone compare the Submersive finish to SVS finish -- not a sonic comparison, just finish?

I (and wife) was more concerned about finish when the sub was sitting in a well lit family room. Now that I have a dedicated bat cave it is less of an issue. Still, a nice finish is still nice to have.

Mike

Mike,
I just got my Submersive yesterday and the finish is very nice. I don't know anything about SVS's finish, but the Submersive's is very classy and well done. I ordered mine in red cherry and am very happy with it. Being an amateur wood worker and someone who is very picky about aesthetics, I can say that I don't think you'd be disappointed in any way, shape, or form with its finish or performance.

I'll give you guys a quickie for now.........
It is clear to me that the Submersive is reference quality, going to it from an MFW-15 is not just like a huge step up but rather its like going to another game altogether.


I quoted myself because I feel that what I said above is just about perfect.

When I first got the Submersive I actually felt that it did not have the same kind of bass my MFW-15 had. Almost as if the Sumbmersive did not have the same slam as the MFW. I stress the word Almost.

I watched the Dark Knight last night and I concentrated on listening to every single bass note in the entire movie.

Right now I just wanna say another quickie, ive never heard bass this good in my entire life and I have heard at least 40 subwoofers in my time.

The Submersive delivers nothing but 100% A+++++ bass. It is the best Subwoofer my ears have ever had the privilege to listen to.

I will try and get a more detailed write up put together one of these days but I still got alot of listening to do. I still do not know the Submersive entirely .

I quoted myself because I feel that what I said above is just about perfect.

When I first got the Submersive I actually felt that it did not have the same kind of bass my MFW-15 had. Almost as if the Sumbmersive did not have the same slam as the MFW. I stress the word Almost.

I watched the Dark Knight last night and I concentrated on listening to every single bass note in the entire movie.

Right now I just wanna say another quickie, ive never heard bass this good in my entire life and I have heard at least 40 subwoofers in my time.

The Submersive delivers nothing but 100% A+++++ bass. It is the best Subwoofer my ears have ever had the privilege to listen to.

I will try and get a more detailed write up put together one of these days but I still got alot of listening to do. I still do not know the Submersive entirely .


Its so stealthly. It disapears until its called upon to make an appearance. It can do subtly or with authority...... I had similar thoughts initially. dont be afraid to turn it up more than your used to.... It can take it :)

If you don't have Blue Crush you might want to pick it up. Its a great demo. amazing bass, great PQ and cinematography, hot chicks, and very predictable story line. The opening 5 minutes is a great HT demo and not one you friends have seen before and the submersive handles this scene very well....

http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Crush-Widescreen-Collectors-Bosworth/dp/B00005JLH0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1250874783&sr=8-1


Sean

Its so stealthly. It disapears until its called upon to make an appearance.


Yep.





If you don't have Blue Crush you might want to pick it up. Its a great demo.

Demo shmemo, I have plenty of good/watchable movies with great bass tracks. There is no point putting on anything but stuff worth watching , if a friend wants a demo I tell him to come over and watch a movie. If you gotta have a demo its a $10 charge for 10 minutes. :p Its a lot cheaper to just come over and watch an entire movie. ;)

Sean, James: I'm curious--with the main speakers at 75 dB, say (from SPL measurement of AVR pink noise test tones), what do you have your SubMersive set to? TIA

So in other words, the Submersive utterly crushes the MFW-15 in terms of sound quality ? :)

Regards,

Sean, James: I'm curious--with the main speakers at 75 dB, say (from SPL measurement of AVR pink noise test tones), what do you have your SubMersive set to? TIA

I have mine set +4db hot in the receiver and a 2db house curve programmed in the EQ. compared to what audessy says

Mark seems to feel that the audessy overstates the bass output. When mark calibrated my system and measured the integration betwen sparks and submersive with house curve off then there was a 4db difference between what he felt provided the smoothest response.. maybe mark can comment on this....

I still use audessy but I use mark's hand dialed #'s when at all possible. They are usually pretty close to audessy but from my experience with his setup in the utah theater his #'s sound better than audessy's. I then use audessy EQ on top of the tweaked setup#'s......

maybe mark can explain more but I have heard say a few times that audessy is overstating the sub output and dialing it back too much. His graphs support this claim in my room....

One thing Bill to check out which I found fascinating is there are these gated pink noise tones on the test disc that came with your submersive. you play the tone for LEFT MAIN and Left Surround for example. The image should hang in between the front and rear channels perfectly. Go into the distance settings on onkyo and adjust it while playing this track. It makes a HUGE difference..... I find this is usually very close to audessy but even .5ft difference makes a noticeable difference with the surround. These tones are super useful and if bet if you a/b the audessy distance to the distance you dial in with this method you will prefer the ones you dialed in. I certainly do in every case I have tried....

same thing with db levels.... audessy for some reason with the sparks was adjust one of the front mains .5db different than the other. changing them back to equal made a HUGE difference in the imaging... I love audessy and its EQ but I always validate its decisions for Levels and distances with my own ears and measurements....

try it. think you'll like it....

Sean

I just got my Submersive yesterday and the finish is very nice.

Please post pics. As many as you can. :)

Regards,

I have mine set +4db hot in the receiver and a 2db house curve programmed in the EQ. compared to what audessy says

Mark seems to feel that the audessy overstates the bass output. When mark calibrated my system and measured the integration betwen sparks and submersive with house curve off then there was a 4db difference between what he felt provided the smoothest response.. maybe mark can comment on this....

I still use audessy but I use mark's hand dialed #'s when at all possible. They are usually pretty close to audessy but from my experience with his setup in the utah theater his #'s sound better than audessy's. I then use audessy EQ on top of the tweaked setup#'s......

maybe mark can explain more but I have heard say a few times that audessy is overstating the sub output and dialing it back too much. His graphs support this claim in my room....

One thing Bill to check out which I found fascinating is there are these gated pink noise tones on the test disc that came with your submersive. you play the tone for LEFT MAIN and Left Surround for example. The image should hang in between the front and rear channels perfectly. Go into the distance settings on onkyo and adjust it while playing this track. It makes a HUGE difference..... I find this is usually very close to audessy but even .5ft difference makes a noticeable difference with the surround. These tones are super useful and if bet if you a/b the audessy distance to the distance you dial in with this method you will prefer the ones you dialed in. I certainly do in every case I have tried....

same thing with db levels.... audessy for some reason with the sparks was adjust one of the front mains .5db different than the other. changing them back to equal made a HUGE difference in the imaging... I love audessy and its EQ but I always validate its decisions for Levels and distances with my own ears and measurements....

try it. think you'll like it....

Sean

Thanks much, Sean. At present I have the SubM about 3 dB above the mains, measured with SPL from Onk 805's test tones. (This is after first eqing with SMS-1, running Audyssey, and a final minor tweak with the SMS-1.) Sounds about right, but it's good to hear what others come up with.

BTW, I didn't receive any 'test disc' with my SubMersive. Was this an oversight, something I should buzz Mark about?

Thanks much, Sean. At present I have the SubM about 3 dB above the mains, measured with SPL from Onk 805's test tones. (This is after first eqing with SMS-1, running Audyssey, and a final minor tweak with the SMS-1.) Sounds about right, but it's good to hear what others come up with.

BTW, I didn't receive any 'test disc' with my SubMersive. Was this an oversight, something I should buzz Mark about?

Whoops! :o

I shipped yours out while I was waiting for the next batch of test DVD's to arrive. You'll have that shortly.

Whoops! :o

I shipped yours out while I was waiting for the next batch of test DVD's to arrive. You'll have that shortly.

Wow--what a quick reply! Thanks Mark.

Whoops! :o

I shipped yours out while I was waiting for the next batch of test DVD's to arrive. You'll have that shortly.


Slacker !!!! hahah good timing Mark... :)

Are any of the test tones that involve adjustment of speaker distances to get them in phase with each other available on other standard DVDs?

I'm not talking about the polarity check, but something where you can adjust the surrounds incrementally to peak out their being in phase.

Whoops! :o

I shipped yours out while I was waiting for the next batch of test DVD's to arrive. You'll have that shortly.

Also--thanks for not waiting for the dvd's to arrive before shipping out my SubMersive!

So in other words, the Submersive utterly crushes the MFW-15 in terms of sound quality ? :)

Regards,

The Submersive utterly crushes most subwoofers currently available in terms of sound quality.

The Submersive needs a Stereophile review, the Submersive belongs in high end 2 channel set-ups.

I may need to double check my settings. I used the internal testones to calibrate. If
75db is reference when using those test tones that I think I am about -2db from that. But again, I need to confirm.

the Submersive belongs in high end 2 channel set-ups.

Now that there are nice veneer options I agree. The early black textured finish was perfect for dedicated front projection theaters...DARK!

The Submersive needs a Stereophile review, the Submersive belongs in high end 2 channel set-ups.

I disagree. While it does fit into a very high end two channel system (I own two SubMersives), it does not need a Stereophile review. Very little upside and LOTS of downside. I say this based upon 30+ years of reading Stereophile and a personal situation of a product they reviewed that I was involved with.

If he happens to get a bad reviewer (there are way more of them than good ones --- remember the primary criteria for a reviewer is good writing skills --- They DO NOT test your listening skills before you are hired by these magazines), then he gets screwed.

He appears to be doing quite well with his current business model; is well respected by the people who count most (his customers); he has reasonable delivery times; appears to be having fun doing what he is doing; and is continuing to develop new products.

SVS has done really really well and only fairly recently did they have a product reviewed.

If I were Mark, I would refuse to provide a product for a review.

One man's opinion!!

Again, just to through myself out there, I am running my sub cool I guess. When I play the intenal test tones, my rat shack settles in between 71-73db for the sub. But it sounds great when I am watching movies. I have no treatments at this point. But, I just bought some. I will probably have to recalibrate after I get them up. That is unless Mark wants to stop by when he is in the neighborhood. I will provide the beer and pizza :).

I disagree. While it does fit into a very high end two channel system (I own two SubMersives), it does not need a Stereophile review. Very little upside and LOTS of downside. I say this based upon 30+ years of reading Stereophile and a personal situation of a product they reviewed that I was involved with.

If he happens to get a bad reviewer (there are way more of them than good ones --- remember the primary criteria for a reviewer is good writing skills --- They DO NOT test your listening skills before you are hired by these magazines), then he gets screwed.

He appears to be doing quite well with his current business model; is well respected by the people who count most (his customers); he has reasonable delivery times; appears to be having fun doing what he is doing; and is continuing to develop new products.

SVS has done really really well and only fairly recently did they have a product reviewed.

If I were Mark, I would refuse to provide a product for a review.

One man's opinion!!

He he , well since you put it that way I agree. But I said that being a guy who does not read the magazine, I just assumed they were well regarded.

Anyhow , I think our reviews have the most impact .

Me and Mark were trading a few emails and I wanted to share one part with you guys
because I feel strongly about the Submersive's very high sound quality.


Mark Seaton said......
One of the interesting aspects of the SubMersive is its composure through rather crazy scenes. You can often still hear all sorts of distinct rumblings and detail while cannons are blasting or the like, where many just meld all those events into one long rumble.

James Johnson said........
Last night I watched Batman , Dark Knight and I made an effort to hear everything the Submersive was doing throughout the entire movie and
I gotta say it was very entertaining to hear how detailed and composed the Submersive was, not just many but I think most subwoofers do a lot of melding bass notes into one long rumble. And I think that in some ways that melding bass notes into one long rumble might come off as the subwoofer having strong output.

But I guess if you've never heard a Submersive then it would be pretty hard to explain this because you wouldn't know what your missing until you had a Submersive tell you exactly what it is you've missed. :-)

Are any of the test tones that involve adjustment of speaker distances to get them in phase with each other available on other standard DVDs?

I'm not talking about the polarity check, but something where you can adjust the surrounds incrementally to peak out their being in phase.

While I have asked plenty for it, I have yet to see these simple signals on another test disk. I'm not certain you're thinking of the same thing we are talking about though. The test signals we're talking about are actually a pink noise burst in 2 channels simultaneously. They are in fact described as being intended to check correct wiring and relative polarity which you would check by standing closely in between the speakers.

I and some others found the signals were also very useful to check the imaging of your system. You can quickly learn how room acoustics, speaker aiming, level and distance affect what you would think might be a simple matter of placing an apparent image between 2 speakers. The series of tracks go through burst between L & R, L & C, C & R, R & RS, L & LS, RS & Back, LS & Back.

While the most attention is often given to level matching, it is well known that delays and time of arrival actually are MUCH more dominant when it comes to apparent source. This is one of the reasons it is so easy to quickly zero in on the acoustic center between a stereo pair of speakers.

So... If you start playing these signals while adjusting settings, you will find that level makes rather subtle changes, but delay makes very significant changes. When you are listening, if the burst sounds like it pulls to one speaker more than the other (it should hover in the middle), that speaker is acoustically closer than the current settings, and you can adjust the distance on that speaker to a smaller distance setting. Making this change you will hear the test signal move. If your speakers, room and settings allow for a well placed image between the pairs of speakers, I have reliably found this to deliver a more enveloping and believable surround field.

I am hopeful that we'll see these signals on a Blu-Ray disk in the future, but I'm not aware of any yet.

I am excited to watch a few of my 70+ blu-rays again so I can hear all of the bass in detail for the first time thanks to my Submersive. :D

Ive seen Dark Knight some 10+ times on blu-ray disc and watching it last night with the Submersive for the first time was absolutely fantastic. Hell I kinda wanna watch it again. Where is that bass only soundtrack ? :D :D

Now that there are nice veneer options I agree. The early black textured finish was perfect for dedicated front projection theaters...DARK!

I agree that I prefer the industrial strength original black finish. Great texture, and it really does disappear in the HT.

Where is that bass only soundtrack ? :D :D

Just pull the speaker wires out of the back of the receiver ;)

Are any of the test tones that involve adjustment of speaker distances to get them in phase with each other available on other standard DVDs?

I'm not talking about the polarity check, but something where you can adjust the surrounds incrementally to peak out their being in phase.

Nope only on the one test disc. I own about every other test disc in existance AVIA, DVE, HQV on DVD and BD and none of them have this set of tones the gold line disc has....

EDIT: Mark beat me to this punch..... But these signals are an awesome way to dial in imaging on your system....

as I side note: I remember first hearing these in my utah theather as mark was dialing it for the GTG. I was setting in the far right hand seat on a HT sectional and even that far off center I could immediately here the difference as mark tweaked the distances in the HT processor.

My Pioneer VSX 03 receiver has these test tones you guys are talking about. In fact I was just using them today. They are a great way to fine tune the sound. I set the distance on the left channel then click noises are output and you have to adjust the center and right so that the image is in the center (don't have surrounds yet).

mike,

Wouldn't the problem with that method be that you could also shift the image by altering the levels of one or the other speaker? By playing to speakers at the same time, then adjusting distance on one till spl peaks, you'd have a better calibration.

While I have asked plenty for it, I have yet to see these simple signals on another test disk. I'm not certain you're thinking of the same thing we are talking about though. The test signals we're talking about are actually a pink noise burst in 2 channels simultaneously. They are in fact described as being intended to check correct wiring and relative polarity which you would check by standing closely in between the speakers.

I and some others found the signals were also very useful to check the imaging of your system. You can quickly learn how room acoustics, speaker aiming, level and distance affect what you would think might be a simple matter of placing an apparent image between 2 speakers. The series of tracks go through burst between L & R, L & C, C & R, R & RS, L & LS, RS & Back, LS & Back.

While the most attention is often given to level matching, it is well known that delays and time of arrival actually are MUCH more dominant when it comes to apparent source. This is one of the reasons it is so easy to quickly zero in on the acoustic center between a stereo pair of speakers.

So... If you start playing these signals while adjusting settings, you will find that level makes rather subtle changes, but delay makes very significant changes. When you are listening, if the burst sounds like it pulls to one speaker more than the other (it should hover in the middle), that speaker is acoustically closer than the current settings, and you can adjust the distance on that speaker to a smaller distance setting. Making this change you will hear the test signal move. If your speakers, room and settings allow for a well placed image between the pairs of speakers, I have reliably found this to deliver a more enveloping and believable surround field.

I am hopeful that we'll see these signals on a Blu-Ray disk in the future, but I'm not aware of any yet.

Yes Mark, that's what I'm talking about.

As many post as I've read about the submersive, the comment James Johnson made quoting you about what sounds like the lack of intermodulation distortion is the first time I've heard that.

Check out this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17043085#post17043085) I started back in July, I just now updated it.;)

As many post as I've read about the submersive, the comment James Johnson made quoting you about what sounds like the lack of intermodulation distortion is the first time I've heard that.

Can you elaborate? I do not understand what you are saying.

James,

You pretty much described it in your post when you quoted Mark. " You can often still hear all sorts of distinct rumblings and detail while cannons are blasting or the like, where many just meld all those events into one long rumble ."

Yes Mark, that's what I'm talking about.

As many post as I've read about the submersive, the comment James Johnson made quoting you about what sounds like the lack of intermodulation distortion is the first time I've heard that.

This aspect has been described by myself and other listeners many times with different wording, but I guess that one clicked for you. ;) The benefit of a pair of 15" woofers not being over designed for the task along with my choices of strengths for the SubMersive are what make for this quality/capability. The biggest differences from other options come from both the smooth anechoic response and the type or lack of changes to the SubMersive's behavior as levels rise.

As I've held to all through the amusing "SubMersive vs. the world" threads, the SubMersive isn't the end-all-be-all in every specific aspect. It's strength is much more in the whole than in any one specific quality, especially as they relate to listening enjoyment in real rooms. Of course there's always room to take a few steps further. :cool:

Finally getting around to posting this stuff. Here's a pic of the Submersives when I arrived home from work.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=150681&stc=1&d=1250943404

I moved them around to the theater and unpacked them. Here's one sitting next to one of the JL F112's:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=150682&stc=1&d=1250943533

I thought the difference of the power cords was interesting. The Submerive's power cord is on the left:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=150683&stc=1&d=1250943632

I then deployed them in their current positions, (but possibly not their final positions):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=150684&stc=1&d=1250943726

And then I put the screen down:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=150685&stc=1&d=1250943884

I had to really lighten the pic's in the theater. The carpet is actually a very dark brown. The drapes are a deep burgundy and the ceiling is black acoustic tiles. It's difficult to photograph down there. That's why the pic's look odd.

The next post will show the measurements.

Craig

These measurements were taken with xtz Room Analyzer:
http://www.xtz.se/produkt.php?allmant=true&produkt=41&eng=true
They show FR from 15 Hz to 300 Hz. Also, in the upper right corner, you can see a plot of spectral decay over time, with color showing intensity, (SPL).

Here is the "baseline" FR:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=150687&stc=1&d=1250945313

And here is the response after running Audyssey and adding the SMS-1:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=150688&stc=1&d=1250945313

The FR is now in a 6 dB window from 15 Hz to 125 Hz. Also, in the spectral decay plot, the excessive energy below 20 Hz is greatly reduced. And it sounds incredible.

Craig

Edit: I also adjusted the distance setting after adding the SMS-1. I watched the response on Room Analyzer at the crossover, and the addition of 6 ft. was the best response.

Thanks for the pics/graphs Craig:). Couple of questions:

How do the Room Analyzer graphs compare to the SMS-1's?

Doing any boosting or all cuts on the SMS-1?

Have you run more than one position?

Thanks for the graphs Craig:). Couple of questions:

How do the Room Analyzer graphs compare to the SMS-1's?

Doing any boosting or all cuts on the SMS-1?

Have you run more than one position?
Great questions! The above graphs are 3-position measurements. They tell you use the left seat, the sweet spot and forward of the right seat, closer to the right, front speaker. I set the mic about 3' forward of the right seat for the third measurement. The software averages the results, weighting the results towards the sweet spot, (30%, 40%, 30%).

While playing with the SMS-1 and Room Analyzer, I placed the RA mic directly below, (almost touching), the SMS-1 mic. I switched back and forth between the SMS-1 sweeps and the RA sweeps. I got virtually the exact same curve on the SMS-1 as on the RA.

I then played around with the SMS-1 setting filters. I added 3 dB of boost at ~ 15 Hz, and a few other filters to "tweak" the response at the primary LP. I added no more than 3 dB at any frequency, and cut no more than 6 dB. I then ran the 3-position final-result graph above.

The most interesting finding to me was the decrease in ringing at VLF's, (as seen in the spectral response plot). Audyssey did this, in spite of the fact that the FR graphs were virtually unchanged by Audyssey. Unfortunately, I didn't save those graphs, but I was surprised at how little Audyssey changed the FR, but how much it reduced the VLF ringing. The SMS-1 is what I used to flatten the FR.

BTW, I obviously retract my previous comments about using the SMS-1 in conjunction with Audyssey. The use of the distance control was essential in integrating the results and I had never tried that before. Thanks to Mark and m-fine for suggesting it.

Craig

Craig, Thanks much for the very useful report! Just so I understand correctly: you run Audyssey first and then smooth out the FR with the SMS-1, right?

Craig, Thanks much for the very useful report! Just so I understand correctly: you run Audyssey first and then smooth out the FR with the SMS-1, right?
Yes, that's what I did. I think if you do it the other way around, Audyssey may try to uncorrect the SMS-1. The key is to re-set the distance setting after adding the SMS-1 to account for the latency in the processing.

Craig

Yes, that's what I did. I think if you do it the other way around, Audyssey may try to uncorrect the SMS-1. The key is to re-set the distance setting after adding the SMS-1 to account for the latency in the processing.

Craig

IIRC, Mark suggested first running Audyssey (as you have done) with the SMS-1 in the loop and 'on' (and NOT in its pass-through mode, preset #6) but with all filters set to 0; the purpose, I think, is so that Audyssey can take account of this latency you describe. Then put in the SMS-1 filters as needed. Any thoughts?

IIRC, Mark suggested first running Audyssey (as you have done) with the SMS-1 in the loop and 'on' (and NOT in its pass-through mode, preset #6) but with all filters set to 0; the purpose, I think, is so that Audyssey can take account of this latency you describe. Then put in the SMS-1 filters as needed. Any thoughts?
I expect that would work as well. I did it the way I did because I ran Audyssey first and when it didn't do much for the FR, I decided to add the SMS-1. Rather than re-run Audyssey, (which takes over a half hour if you do all eight positions*), I just played with the distance setting to account for the latency. I think either way would work.

*I have an Onkyo 885. It doesn't allow you to see the settings until you complete the run and do the calculations.

Craig

If you go to the Audessey thread, it is suggested to run any eq first prior to Audessey.

Good stuff Craig (and Bill) ... thanks:cool:

Quick Question Guys:

Can a guy leave their Submersive on all the time? , and how much power does it draw on idle?

I wrote myself a little note and taped it on my remote control stand.......
"Turn Off Subwoofer"

My MFW-15 could go ON OFF or AUTO, id like to know what the difference between ON and AUTO is on that amp, does anyone know ?

Quick Question Guys:

Can a guy leave their Submersive on all the time? , and how much power does it draw on idle?

I wrote myself a little note and taped it on my remote control stand.......
"Turn Off Subwoofer"

My MFW-15 could go ON OFF or AUTO, id like to know what the difference between ON and AUTO is on that amp, does anyone know ?

Yes, I think it's fine (maybe best) to leave it on all the time. Mark has commented that it draws less power when 'on' (and not producing) than many others do in 'standby'.

If you go to the Audessey thread, it is suggested to run any eq first prior to Audessey.
That recommendation is usually related to the single-band EQ's in subwoofers amps. They're used to take down one strong resonance before running Audyssey.

Craig

Quick Question Guys:

Can a guy leave their Submersive on all the time? , and how much power does it draw on idle?

I wrote myself a little note and taped it on my remote control stand.......
"Turn Off Subwoofer"

My MFW-15 could go ON OFF or AUTO, id like to know what the difference between ON and AUTO is on that amp, does anyone know ?

Hi James,

There is no auto sensing on the SubMersive amplifier. It is perfectly safe to directly switch the power line with a triggered power block or the like. To avoid any noisy shut-downs (again safe, but makes a thump) you would want to shut down the amp at the same time or after the pre-amp/receiver in front of it. The SubMersive doesn't make any loud noises powering down unless there is a signal of significant level present.

As for the idle power, it is less than 60% of what your MFW-15 was pulling when "off" with the red light on. ;)

awesome theater craig :cool:

Can a guy leave their Submersive on all the time? , and how much power does it draw on idle?

While safe and the draw for the SubMersive is probably less than many SW in the self-sensing "off" mode I do my best to eliminate all of these vampire power draws. For the SubMersive I picked up a used Niles AC-3 which is hooked up to one of the triggers on my processor. It works great. For anybody thinking about doing this be aware the Niles needs a minimum 100mA trigger source. Some receivers and processors aren't able to provide that much trigger current.

FWIW, my SubMersive draws about 19 watts at idle.

awesome theater craig :cool:
Thanks! It's hard to get enough light down there to photograph it well.

Craig john,

Congratulations on your purchase. How does the Submersive compare to the Fathom for music listening ?

Regards,

Very nice theater, craig. In that pic, it looks like the Fathom is almost sulking at being replaced. :D

How does the Submersive compare to the Fathom for music listening ?

Regards,

"" "" ditto

The Fathoms are one subwoofer ive never heard, id like to know how they compare against the Submersive for music duty.

My guess is there is no comparison. But I could be wrong. :p

Hi James,

There is no auto sensing on the SubMersive amplifier. It is perfectly safe to directly switch the power line with a triggered power block or the like. To avoid any noisy shut-downs (again safe, but makes a thump) you would want to shut down the amp at the same time or after the pre-amp/receiver in front of it. The SubMersive doesn't make any loud noises powering down unless there is a signal of significant level present.

As for the idle power, it is less than 60% of what your MFW-15 was pulling when "off" with the red light on. ;)

Thanks Mark, I may just leave it on all the time.

Do you or anyone else know of a cheap triggered power block ?

Hmmm actually my Onkyo 805 has a triggered outlet but my bias backlight is using it. Hmm I better check the specs on that outlet because there is a chance I could get em both on that outlet.

From my Onkyo 805 manual...........>>


AC OUTLET (North American and European
models only)
These switched AC outlets can be used to supply
power to other AV components. The type and num-
ber of outlets depends on the country in which you
purchased your AV receiver.


Its just a switched AC outlet, I wonder if it would be ok just to get one of these......

http://www.cablesdirect.com/prodimages/PP-ADPT2_LR.jpg

The outlet does not have a ground slot but you get the idea.

The FR is now in a 6 dB window from 15 Hz to 125 Hz. Also, in the spectral decay plot, the excessive energy below 20 Hz is greatly reduced. And it sounds incredible.

Craig

Edit: I also adjusted the distance setting after adding the SMS-1. I watched the response on Room Analyzer at the crossover, and the addition of 6 ft. was the best response.
How's Iron Man? :)

I would not plug the 1000 watt submersive into a receivers switched outlet unless you see a spec that says it is ok to have a 10-12 amp load there.

I ended up plugging my eq into the receiver, so when the receiver is off, the sub sees absolutely no input signal, but stays on.

I would not plug the 1000 watt submersive into a receivers switched outlet unless you see a spec that says it is ok to have a 10-12 amp load there.

I ended up plugging my eq into the receiver, so when the receiver is off, the sub sees absolutely no input signal, but stays on.

Yep, it ain't gonna happen spec is 120W , 1 Amp max.

Do you or anyone else know of a cheap triggered power block ?


There was a DIY thread awhile ago with someone building them. I had him build me one and send it to me for $35!! Its awesome! I forget who it was (maybe RightBrained) but you should search the DIY forum for "trigging pro amps" or something like that

I also use power conditioners from APC, Monster or Panamax for there switching power designs. They are great because they have delays in them, IMO its important to delay the AMP power up.

Yep, its RightBrained and I found the thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1137451&highlight=

Thanks Mark, I may just leave it on all the time.

Do you or anyone else know of a cheap triggered power block ?

Hmmm actually my Onkyo 805 has a triggered outlet but my bias backlight is using it. HM I better check the specs on that outlet because there is a chance I could get em both on that outlet.
Hello,
I did things a little different. I ran a thirty amp circuit (240V) to a NEMA 2 relay. From there to three Duplex 15 amp receptacles. I use the aux power from my Integra DCH-9.9 to control the relay. Changing the voltage on my two Submersives & my three Catalysts allowed the amperage to be cut in half. When not in use, the only power used is the idle draw in the Pre/Pro.

Carl

WHOOOSH !! ^^^^ What Carl just said flew right over my head. :D

Is NEMA something related to FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) ? :p

Quick question guys...... does anyone know what the frequency of the subwoofer test tone for setting the levels is on an Onkyo 805 ? And/or if you can tell me how many dbs should I add for correction to my analog Radio Shack SPL meter.

Reason I ask is because I am setting my Submersive + 4-5db and it still sounds like its low.

Quick question guys...... does anyone know what the frequency of the subwoofer test tone for setting the levels is on an Onkyo 805 ? And/or if you can tell me how many dbs should I add for correction to my analog Radio Shack SPL meter.

Reason I ask is because I am setting my Submersive + 4-5db and it still sounds like its low.

The test tones in receivers and test DVDs are not tones. They are noise. Most are band limited noise. This means you start with pink noise, and you add filters to lop off the range you aren't interested in. The intention by Dolby & THX was for test tones for speakers to be 500-2kHz, and the subwoofer test signal to be 40-80Hz, which is what you will find on the 5.1 Audio Toolkit. This aligns with the most dominant ranges for perceived loudness of dialog and bass loudness.

The problem with any such settings is that the ideal matching is predicated on the assumption of flat frequency response, which is almost never the case in a real listening room. The low frequencies have the most variation in both response and what will work best in mating to the main speakers. This gets back to the reality that if you haven't measured the frequency responses in room, you're guessing. Since we're guessing or approximating to begin with, don't get too concerned if a subwoofer setting is high or low from what you expect if it sounds better.

You should at least give a listen at the settings that your SPL meter & test tones would suggest, as well as at points in between, but in the end it still has to sound good. Pull out the 5.1 Audio Toolkit DVD included with your SubMersive and head to the first seven tracks in the "Acoustic Measurements" section and use those settings to give you a base line starting point. I often find the values I get with the DVD differ from what I get with internal test tones, and I always trust the DVD over the pre-pro/receiver. Depending on the response of the subwoofer in the room, the size/construction/acoustics of the space, listening levels and how the loudspeakers mate into the subwoofer range, I will end up with settings that easily range from 76-83dB with the LFE test signal on the Audio Toolkit DVD.

WHOOOSH !! ^^^^ What Carl just said flew right over my head. :D

Is NEMA something related to FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) ? :p

Need Energy Management for Audio

I'm thinking that large powerful subs will run afoul of cap and trade eventually.

Quick question guys...... does anyone know what the frequency of the subwoofer test tone for setting the levels is on an Onkyo 805 ? And/or if you can tell me how many dbs should I add for correction to my analog Radio Shack SPL meter.

Reason I ask is because I am setting my Submersive + 4-5db and it still sounds like its low.

James, Mark's comments above are obviously what you should follow; I'll be doing this ASA I receive the Audio Toolkit dvd.

In the meantime, I do use the test tones in my 805 (after eqing a pretty flat FR via Audessey + SMS-1), and with the main speakers at 75 dB I find that ~77-78 dB for the sub is about right for me. The LFE tracks on the movies that have them are magnificent!

Quick question guys...... does anyone know what the frequency of the subwoofer test tone for setting the levels is on an Onkyo 805 ? And/or if you can tell me how many dbs should I add for correction to my analog Radio Shack SPL meter.

Reason I ask is because I am setting my Submersive + 4-5db and it still sounds like its low.

James, are you using the Audyssey with your 805? If so, in my experience with Audyssey in my 885, I have had to boost my LFE channel by 10db over what Audyssey sets. Otherwise, Audyssey completely guts my bass. Don't be afraid of turning up the level to suit your taste(assuming you are not sitting in a null spot)

Very nice theater, craig.
:)

In that pic, it looks like the Fathom is almost sulking at being replaced. :D
:eek:

:D

How's Iron Man? :)
It sounds spectacular to me, but I will be interested in *your* comments, (as well as Scott, Ryan and Dennis's), when you come over on Thursday. :)

For the *rest* of the forum, we have a small Central PA HT group. We get together from time to time and check out each other's theater's. It's a real learning experience for me since all the guys are very knowledgeable, but with different core "specialties". pepar, is our audio, room treatments and Audyssey expert. Ryan is our video calibration specialist; he owns a bunch of Sencore video calibration equipment, and knows how to use it. Scott is a DIY guy and is *very* knowledgeable about speaker and subwoofer building theory and practice. Dennis is in the process of building his HT, but he is a drummer and musician, so he brings a unique perspective to our group.

I am looking forward to hosting the group this Thursday evening so they can check out the Submersives. Hopefully, you'll hear some impressions from them, afterward.

Craig

We get together from time to time and check out each other's theater's. It's a real learning experience
It's usually expensive, too, :D

i'm thinking that large powerful subs will run afoul of cap and trade eventually.
:d

I started watching the 2nd disc of a Visions of Italy dvd from Netflix and the Intro has organ music with really DEEP bass notes. I was thinking that would sound magestic with a Submersive or two. Sigh, one of these days my credit cards will be paid off and I can get them.

It sounds spectacular to me, but I will be interested in *your* comments, (as well as Scott, Ryan and Dennis's), when you come over on Thursday. :)

For the *rest* of the forum, we have a small Central PA HT group. We get together from time to time and check out each other's theater's. It's a real learning experience for me since all the guys are very knowledgeable, but with different core "specialties". pepar, is our audio, room treatments and Audyssey expert. Ryan is our video calibration specialist; he owns a bunch of Sencore video calibration equipment, and knows how to use it. Scott is a DIY guy and is *very* knowledgeable about speaker and subwoofer building theory and practice. Dennis is in the process of building his HT, but he is a drummer and musician, so he brings a unique perspective to our group.

I am looking forward to hosting the group this Thursday evening so they can check out the Submersives. Hopefully, you'll hear some impressions from them, afterward.

Craig

Sounds like great fun; look forward to hearing your reports.

James, Mark's comments above are obviously what you should follow; I'll be doing this ASA I receive the Audio Toolkit dvd.

In the meantime, I do use the test tones in my 805 (after eqing a pretty flat FR via Audessey + SMS-1), and with the main speakers at 75 dB I find that ~77-78 dB for the sub is about right for me. The LFE tracks on the movies that have them are magnificent!


This is a total noob question. In all the years ive been into HT ive always set the speaker levels around whatever SPL the tones put out, your response made me think, hmmm , what if I bump up the SPL to 75db for each speaker rather then use whatever SPL the tone happens to be at.

What is the proper way to do this ? Just for the heck of it I set em all to 75db and the Submersive to ~80db


So again, what is the proper way to do this? Gosh, you'd figure id have though of this before considering all the years ive had this hobby.

James, are you using the Audyssey with your 805? If so, in my experience with Audyssey in my 885, I have had to boost my LFE channel by 10db over what Audyssey sets. Otherwise, Audyssey completely guts my bass. Don't be afraid of turning up the level to suit your taste(assuming you are not sitting in a null spot)

Yes I use it, 10db is quite a jump. Id say on average (ive had the 805 a ~year)
on average I usually bump the subwoofer up around 5db or so. That was while I had my MFW-15 , for the Submersive it does not seem to be enough. But then again , I had the MFW-15 crossed at 120hz the entire year I owned it , now the Submersive is at 80hz.

This is a total noob question. In all the years ive been into HT ive always set the speaker levels around whatever SPL the tones put out, your response made me think, hmmm , what if I bump up the SPL to 75db for each speaker rather then use whatever SPL the tone happens to be at.

What is the proper way to do this ? Just for the heck of it I set em all to 75db and the Submersive to ~80db


So again, what is the proper way to do this? Gosh, you'd figure id have though of this before considering all the years ive had this hobby.

Other more experienced persons may jump in, but as you have done, I use the AVR trim to set my main speakers to 75 dB after running Audyssey, and the sub a few dB above this to taste, as you have done. As I understand it, Audyssey sets the speaker levels to match the speakers relative to one another, but not on an absolute basis. In my case, after running Audyssey I typically have to increase the trims in the Onk 805 about 3 to 4 dB each to bring them up to 75. (I also set my surrounds 2 to 3 dB above 75, just because I like to emphasize the surround effects.)

And like many here, I am in love with my SubMersive! It brings authority to the LFE to so much a greater degree than I've experienced before. My room is only ~ 2000 cu ft, so you guys can imagine what it does in this medium/small room. [The gain on my SubM is at -14 dB, the trim in the 805 AVR -8 (of a range from -15 to +15), and the volume level on the SMS-1 is at 30 (scale is 0 to 99).]

Of standard square or rectangular ,ported or sealed subwoofers, there cannot be more than a few better sounding subwoofers than the Submersive on this planet we live on called Earth. I can say for sure that I have not heard one of them yet. :p Ok, I need to get off the bragging bus. :p
Sorry guys. :p

And like many here, I am in love with my SubMersive! It brings authority to the LFE to so much a greater degree than I've experienced before.


I hear ya, though I don't quite think bringing authority is enough , ive had many, many subwoofers that brought that to the table.
Hmmmm........ I think the way id describe the Submersive is this....The Submersive is invisible and it will throw out such realistic bass that it will challenge your sanity. :D;)

WHOOOSH !! ^^^^ What Carl just said flew right over my head. :D

Is NEMA something related to FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) ? :p

Hello,
NEMA stands for "National Electrical Manufactures Association" My reference was to the relay's size.

Carl

Hello,
NEMA stands for "National Electrical Manufactures Association" My reference was to the relay's size.

Carl
That's part of the Lost Electricity Reclamation Bureau, isn't it?

That's part of the Lost Electricity Reclamation Bureau, isn't it?
It is when I power everything off when I am not using it.
Carl

That's part of the Lost Electricity Reclamation Bureau, isn't it?

U.S. Department of the Interior; Bureau of Reclamation

Other more experienced persons may jump in, but as you have done, I use the AVR trim to set my main speakers to 75 dB after running Audyssey, and the sub a few dB above this to taste, as you have done. As I understand it, Audyssey sets the speaker levels to match the speakers relative to one another, but not on an absolute basis. In my case, after running Audyssey I typically have to increase the trims in the Onk 805 about 3 to 4 dB each to bring them up to 75. (I also set my surrounds 2 to 3 dB above 75, just because I like to emphasize the surround effects.)

What is the advantage of manually setting the trim so all speakers read 75 dB?

After running Audyssey my speakers are at 73 dB, so I would have to increase the trims by +2 dB to make them all 75 dB. I'm using the Onkyo 876 BTW.

What is the advantage of manually setting the trim so all speakers read 75 dB?

After running Audyssey my speakers are at 73 dB, so I would have to increase the trims by +2 dB to make them all 75 dB. I'm using the Onkyo 876 BTW.

There's no real advantage other than knowing that when your volume is at at "0", you are at reference.

There's no real advantage other than knowing that when your volume is at at "0", you are at reference.

....and what exactly does that tell you? Seems that depending on your speakers, room, amps, the actual SPL will vary.

....and what exactly does that tell you? Seems that depending on your speakers, room, amps, the actual SPL will vary.

Unless your amp or speakers can't cut it, the actual SPL at your listeng position should be reference levels. I believe that means 85db average with up to 105db peaks from the mains and up to 115db peaks from the sub.

It is when I power everything off when I am not using it.
Carl

U.S. Department of the Interior; Bureau of Reclamation
Actually, it was the Department of Redundancy Departments, Bureau of Western Mythology - A Proud Service of the Lost Electricity Reclamation Agency.

It was a very obscure agency in an even more obscure reference to a comedy group known as Firesign Theater who were in their heyday in the late 60's and early 70's. Amazingly enough, they are still performing (http://www.firesigntheatre.com/). I am showing my age and counter-cultural heritage. ;)

What is the advantage of manually setting the trim so all speakers read 75 dB?

After running Audyssey my speakers are at 73 dB, so I would have to increase the trims by +2 dB to make them all 75 dB. I'm using the Onkyo 876 BTW.

Agreed; no benefit. You make up any difference with the main volume control

....and what exactly does that tell you? Seems that depending on your speakers, room, amps, the actual SPL will vary.

There are no audio police who will come by and give you a ticket, but it's nice to know you've made an effort to calibrate "zero" on your dial to the intended gain structure which is supposed to be used in mastering.

In the end the relative matching is what matters most, although apart from the identified points of concern for the subwoofer channel outputs, most receivers and preamps have optimized their noise floor and operation for use up to and below the nominal reference level (typically zero dB, ~80 on some Onkyo/Integra products).

Hi everyone ,it s been a long time I read this post and I realy want to have your opinion...I only heard my subwoofer Paradigm servo 15 v.2...so you can call me a newbie...The only thing I know it s I love his sound and noe I woul like to made an real upgrade ,and I look in the direction of the Submersive...
So it would be a real upgrade if I pass to the Submersive side. Paradigm:one 15 inch driver 1200 watts sealed sub v.s Submersive:two 15 inch drivers 1000 watts power sealed sub.
To be honnest I also consideer two other options :1-add a second Paradigm or buy an Elemental design A7-900 (but the size scare me)
I have a sealed room of 2100 cubic feet without acoustic treatment and bass trap (Isuppose to add four in each corner someday),and I dont have an equalizer such a SMS-1,I never use my Audissey equalizer from my Integra DTC-9.8...Should I try it for better results...
I hope you gonna give me good informations cause I need the best advice before I made my purschase ,it s a lot of money 2000$ and more...My choice is gonna rest in my home theatre for many many long years...
P.S. forget about the mistakes in my english I am a french Canadian
Thanks

struggledave,

I have a Paradigm Servo 15a and a Submersive. Both subs are sealed units. I am using both in my theater room. I had purchased the Paradigm when in a different house. There was substantial bass reinforcement in the listening area with this sub. I couldn't leave well enough alone and also added some SVS 20-39 PCI tube subs. The SVS seemed to be a bit more distinct in the bass, while the Paradigm went lower. The added subs seemed to balance out the room,but impact at times seemed less. I moved to another house, which is very open and larger. I initially used the SVS subs alone in the theater room and added an SMS-1. The response curve was pretty flat, but I could detect the subs and quality wasn't quite right for my area. I did not and still do not have traps. I removed the SVS subs and purchased the Submersive. I used the SMS-1, and overall response was much better. I have ended up adding the Paradigm back in at the front of the room with the center on top of it with the Submersive in rear, 1/3 of the long wall behind. I am not now using the SMS-1. Bass at the listening position is tight and powerful, though in non-listening positions there are hot rumble spots. I intend to experiment adding traps as well.

I like the Paradigm and am keeping it. I have had buzzing issues with it in the past, but currently not a problem. The Submersive is considerably more powerful and seemingly more articulate. However, so much of this has to do with the room and placement. I think I have been very fortunate that these two subs seem to be complimenting each other in my room. With Paradigm being Canadian made, you have some advantages in distribution and, hopefully, pricing. The Submersive is an excellent product. I appreciate it is not an inexpensive purchase, but it is a great value and a great performer.

Best of luck,
Will

These measurements were taken with xtz Room Analyzer:
http://www.xtz.se/produkt.php?allmant=true&produkt=41&eng=true
They show FR from 15 Hz to 300 Hz. Also, in the upper right corner, you can see a plot of spectral decay over time, with color showing intensity, (SPL).

Here is the "baseline" FR:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=150687&stc=1&d=1250945313

And here is the response after running Audyssey and adding the SMS-1:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=150688&stc=1&d=1250945313

The FR is now in a 6 dB window from 15 Hz to 125 Hz. Also, in the spectral decay plot, the excessive energy below 20 Hz is greatly reduced. And it sounds incredible.

Craig

Edit: I also adjusted the distance setting after adding the SMS-1. I watched the response on Room Analyzer at the crossover, and the addition of 6 ft. was the best response.

Very nice Craig! Boy do I wish I lived near you! :)

Very nice Craig! Boy do I wish I lived near you! :)
As a fellow Packer fan and a fellow AVS'er, you're welcome to visit anytime! :)

Craig

Mark Seaton, check you email and PMs as I have sent you a notification that i am demanding my money back, if you prefer I will have my lawyer call you.
What is going on here ? The Submersive has damaged the foundation on my home. The house will have to be jacked up and a new concrete foundation will have to be made. I would highly recommend you cover yourself in the future by including a statement with the Submersive that says that Seaton Sound is not responsible for damage caused by the Submersive.

Turn it down a bit!!!

Mark Seaton, check you email and PMs as I have sent you a notification that i am demanding my money back, if you prefer I will have my lawyer call you.
What is going on here ? The Submersive has damaged the foundation on my home. The house will have to be jacked up and a new concrete foundation will have to be made. I would highly recommend you cover yourself in the future by including a statement with the Submersive that says that Seaton Sound is not responsible for damage caused by the Submersive.

End user destruction caused by this sub is NOT covered:p. That is why we have opposing thumbs. To lower the level when needed.

He was kidding, wasn't he? Is this part of a viral marketing campaign? :)

There were no emoticons, but he would have to have been kidding. The alternative, if his sub has truly done what he says, is that he has a home that was not built with the appropriate materials and workmanship.

Yeah I assumed it was a joke although it almost seems real without any of these :p

Yeah I assumed it was a joke although it almost seems real without any of these :p
Well, if I were Mr. Seaton, I would consider it a ringing endorsement and beat it for all it was worth. "Submersives will rock your foundation!" Yee-HAH! :D

Come on guys, the only thing that is going to damage a properly done concrete foundation is an earthquake.

On the Submersive, has anybody here pushed their Submersive to its limits ?
If so , about what did you have the gain set at?

Soon enough I will see how far mine will go but I am still getting to know it so its not time yet.

Be careful of your foundation James!!!

As a fellow Packer fan and a fellow AVS'er, you're welcome to visit anytime! :)

Craig
:) Thank you sir! If I'm ever in the area or visiting craigsub again I'll be sure to give you a shout.

I am happy you're enjoying your system buddy!

:) Thank you sir! If I'm ever in the area or visiting craigsub again I'll be sure to give you a shout.

I am happy you're enjoying your system buddy!
If you're visiting craigsub, you're still about 350 miles from me. He lives in the opposite corner of the state. It's a beautiful drive tho! :D

Craig

Mark Seaton, check you email and PMs as I have sent you a notification that i am demanding my money back, if you prefer I will have my lawyer call you.
What is going on here ? The Submersive has damaged the foundation on my home. The house will have to be jacked up and a new concrete foundation will have to be made. I would highly recommend you cover yourself in the future by including a statement with the Submersive that says that Seaton Sound is not responsible for damage caused by the Submersive.

You did not put that rant in CAPS so Mike might think your bluffing.

Come on guys, the only thing that is going to damage a properly done concrete foundation is an earthquake.

On the Submersive, has anybody here pushed their Submersive to its limits ?
If so , about what did you have the gain set at?

Soon enough I will see how far mine will go but I am still getting to know it so its not time yet.
Being from the northwest, your foundation could be made of granola and ground up Birkenstocks for all we know. ;)

This is a total noob question. In all the years ive been into HT ive always set the speaker levels around whatever SPL the tones put out, your response made me think, hmmm , what if I bump up the SPL to 75db for each speaker rather then use whatever SPL the tone happens to be at.

What is the proper way to do this ? Just for the heck of it I set em all to 75db and the Submersive to ~80db


So again, what is the proper way to do this? Gosh, you'd figure id have though of this before considering all the years ive had this hobby.

Hi James,

I thought others might have answered this, but I'll give the simple rundown...

The idea is for your system to produce 75dB at the listening position with the test tones on the Audio Toolkit DVD (chpt 1-7) when your main volume is set at "reference" which is either 0dB or a numeric 80 on some receivers. I believe you can actually select in the menu of your Onkyo for the scale to be numeric or relative to 0dB.

Proper approach as you already have the Audio Toolkit DVD:

1. Keep the volume down when you first load the DVD as the menu music can be a little loud. Select "Acoustic Tests" and you will see a listing of chapters with descriptions.
2. Now raise the receiver volume to reference.
3. Select the first chapter and read the instructions on the screen. You are looking for an SPL reading of 75dB in C-weighting and "slow" mode. I recommend just going through and writing down how much each channel is off while going through the front 3 channels or even all of them.
4. Go into the speaker calibration menu and adjust the levels per your measurements.
5. Go back to the DVD and re-measure the levels and make any final adjustments needed.

Once you get this far you can then go back and tweak here to taste. I expect you will want the subwoofer channel to read 78-83dB rather than 75dB. ;)

The only other point of caution is if the left & right speakers measure differently, be cautious in setting them more than 0.5dB different in level. Often this hinders the stereo listening despite the measurements.

There's plenty more to play with after that, particularly the tone burst tests to help dial in the distances I posted about earlier.

Enjoy!

Well, if I were Mr. Seaton, I would consider it a ringing endorsement and beat it for all it was worth. "Submersives will rock your foundation!" Yee-HAH! :D

I've joked about that for the SubMersives for a while, but I will probably have a warning included with the Terraform XLs. I'm not so much worried about foundations, and drywall is easily patched, but valuables hanging on walls on the other side of a home are a different matter... They are also easily excited without warning from well across a house when you suddenly have significant energy on tap below 15-20Hz. :eek:

That will be one of those cases where "If you didn't construct your room specifically for this use, be careful!"

I expect you will want the subwoofer channel to read 78-83dB rather than 75dB. ;) Hi Mark,

If I perform the subwoofer channel test tone on The 5.1 Audio Toolkit DVD, I get a reading that jumps around 73-77 dB. This is with the digital RadioShack SPL meter with C weighting and "slow" response. However, during this test, most of the time the reading is 75 dB.

Some say the digital RadioShack SPL meter is off by 3 dB (you have to add 3 dB to the reading to get the actual SPL) while some say the reading is accurate. Do you have any experience with the digital RadioShack SPL meter? If so, is it accurate or is it off by 3 dB?

I've joked about that for the SubMersives for a while, but I will probably have a warning included with the Terraform XLs. I'm not so much worried about foundations, and drywall is easily patched, but valuables hanging on walls on the other side of a home are a different matter... They are also easily excited without warning from well across a house when you suddenly have significant energy on tap below 15-20Hz. :eek:

That will be one of those cases where "If you didn't construct your room specifically for this use, be careful!"

I'm ready to take the risk, Mark! :)

"I'm not so much worried about foundations, and drywall is easily patched, but valuables hanging on walls on the other side of a home are a different matter..."
Yep, I may have mentioned this before, but when Mark was testing the sub, the glasses in the kitchen cabinet were vibrating. The kitchen is on the first floor on the other side of the house :).

If you're visiting craigsub, you're still about 350 miles from me. He lives in the opposite corner of the state. It's a beautiful drive tho! :D

Craig
If I am already that close you'll be worth the trip for sure.

Thanks again for the invite.

I missed the last GTG in northern IL, in which I had the chance to hear the Sparks, Catalysts and Submersive. I kick myself every day for not being able to attend. :mad:

If I am already that close you'll be worth the trip for sure.

Thanks again for the invite.

I missed the last GTG in northern IL, in which I had the chance to hear the Sparks, Catalysts and Submersive. I kick myself every day for not being able to attend. :mad:

as you should for missing that GTG

heck I even made it to that one and I live in detroit:D

The Submersive sucks, I cannot even get a ~1 pound picture and frame to vibrate an inch from where it sits on top of the Submersive. Heck , ive had subwoofers that would put the same picture on the floor with a viewing of a movie with some good bass. Heck, I cannot get the picture to movie a quarter inch so much as an inch. What a waste of money, looks like I had to learn the hard way that the Submersive sucks. :rolleyes:

:D:p:p:p:D

I've joked about that for the SubMersives for a while, but I will probably have a warning included with the Terraform XLs. I'm not so much worried about foundations, and drywall is easily patched, but valuables hanging on walls on the other side of a home are a different matter... They are also easily excited without warning from well across a house when you suddenly have significant energy on tap below 15-20Hz. :eek:

That will be one of those cases where "If you didn't construct your room specifically for this use, be careful!"

Stop it Mark!! You are gonna murder my wallet. :p

(OT but please get the premium finishes asap on your speakers.)

Thank You Mark ! VV

Hi James,

I thought others might have answered this, but I'll give the simple rundown...

The idea is for your system to produce 75dB at the listening position with the test tones on the Audio Toolkit DVD (chpt 1-7) when your main volume is set at "reference" which is either 0dB or a numeric 80 on some receivers. I believe you can actually select in the menu of your Onkyo for the scale to be numeric or relative to 0dB.

Proper approach as you already have the Audio Toolkit DVD:

1. Keep the volume down when you first load the DVD as the menu music can be a little loud. Select "Acoustic Tests" and you will see a listing of chapters with descriptions.
2. Now raise the receiver volume to reference.
3. Select the first chapter and read the instructions on the screen. You are looking for an SPL reading of 75dB in C-weighting and "slow" mode. I recommend just going through and writing down how much each channel is off while going through the front 3 channels or even all of them.
4. Go into the speaker calibration menu and adjust the levels per your measurements.
5. Go back to the DVD and re-measure the levels and make any final adjustments needed.

Once you get this far you can then go back and tweak here to taste. I expect you will want the subwoofer channel to read 78-83dB rather than 75dB. ;)

The only other point of caution is if the left & right speakers measure differently, be cautious in setting them more than 0.5dB different in level. Often this hinders the stereo listening despite the measurements.

There's plenty more to play with after that, particularly the tone burst tests to help dial in the distances I posted about earlier.

Enjoy!

The Submersive sucks, I cannot even get a ~1 pound picture and frame to vibrate an inch from where it sits on top of the Submersive. Heck , ive had subwoofers that would put the same picture on the floor with a viewing of a movie with some good bass. Heck, I cannot get the picture to movie a quarter inch so much as an inch. What a waste of money, looks like I had to learn the hard way that the Submersive sucks. :rolleyes:

:D:p:p:p:D

Wow, it's that inert huh?

I received my Audio Toolkit dvd in the mail today (thanks, Mark!) and have been having fun playing with it. Wow, what are array of audio things! I particularly like Title 3: the Listening Tests; an excellent quick survey of a variety of different music and LFE demo's.

Happily, I find that the level settings I get with the test tones from my Onkyo 805 AVR are right on the money with what I get from this disk. This definitely gives much more confidence in using them, since it easy to check them from time to time with the AVR. At present, with the main speakers at 75 dB I'm setting the SubM to a level that fluctuates between 78 and 80 dB. Much more than that in my room (not so large, ~ 2000 cu ft) begins to sound too much. But boy, does it come through crisp and clean!

Wow, it's that inert huh?

Yep. :cool:

I hopefully will have a Seaton Submersive soon, but I don't know if it 1 will be enough for my 1900 cubed ft!:p

as you should for missing that GTG

heck I even made it to that one and I live in detroit:D
:) Ouch - way to rub salt in the wound. :):p Yeah, you're right, though. Next time I'll be there! I have a fever, and the only prescription is to hear Seaton's toys. :D

:) Ouch - way to rub salt in the wound. :):p Yeah, you're right, though. Next time I'll be there! I have a fever, and the only prescription is to hear Seaton's toys. :D

I thought the only prescription for a fever was more cow bell:p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ

I thought the only prescription for a fever was more cow bell:p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ

this is nuts. i was just watching that dvd last night. SNL best of Christopher Walken :D

Mark,

I see that the SVS equalizer uses FIR filters and thought I'd ask you if that's the technology you use when programming the DSP in the submersive's amp.

Mark,

I see that the SVS equalizer uses FIR filters and thought I'd ask you if that's the technology you use when programming the DSP in the submersive's amp.

Hi Jim,

The vast majority of DSP is used as emulation of IIR filters. The DSP I use internal to the amplifiers is comparable to what you can be done with something like a BSS SoundWeb or OmniDrive but a bit more flexible in filter parameters.

For the response shaping of a subwoofer, for the most part we want IIR filters. There is plenty of technical phrasing for why, but basically the magnitude and phase response are tied together, and correcting one with an IIR filter corrects the other. That's not to say FIR filters are without uses at low frequencies, but they are more another range of flexibility than a necessity for the task.

Audyssey will say that their FIR filters are designed to be phase linear.

Audyssey will say that their FIR filters are designed to be phase linear.

Yes, meaning no change to phase while changing magnitude, or vice versa. A Subwoofer is a minimum phase system (change in magnitude correlates to change in phase) which makes minimum phase equalization (IIR) an appropriate tool. Yes, you can use FIR if desired, and I can't say that I might not employ it down the road, but the reasons and goals in using such filters is a bit different.

Thanks for the extra pictures James. That looks really great.

BTW, I received my Antimode 8033 today. Only 3 days to get to PA. from Finland. Not bad at all. I'll play with it tonight and let you know how it goes. :)

Chris

Chris, what do you think of that 8033 so far ?

I thought the only prescription for a fever was more cow bell:p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ
Not this fever! :)

Mark Seaton , what are your thoughts on the SVS AS-EQ1 and Anti-Mode 8033 ?

I think I have my EQ choices narrowed down to these 2.

^^^^The SVS is $699 the Anti-Mode is ~$385 , so I guess it comes down to....

The SVS is 80% more expensive than the Anti-Mode($385+80%=$693), is it worth it ?

^^^^The SVS is $699 the Anti-Mode is ~$385 , so I guess it comes down to....

The SVS is 80% more expensive than the Anti-Mode($385+80%=$693), is it worth it ?
Direct comparison reviews are not to be found . . yet. The SVS AS-EQ1 (and the Audyssey-badged Audyssey Subwoofer Equalizer) are very new. I believe Kal Rubinson (Stereophile reviewer) has made some comments regarding Audyssey MultEQ (Pro?) vs. the 8033. He has an AS-EQ1 review in a print issue of Stereophile which will appear (free!) online a month or two later.

FWIW, I have had an AS-EQ1 (demo unit) in my system for 2-3 months and expect my pre-order any day now. My system sounds better with it over vanilla MultEQ XT, which was a huge improvement over a Rane PEQ and 1/3rd GEQs and all sorts of testing software.

Mark,

Can you recommend a good external active crossover to use with the submersive?

how does the SubMersive compare to the eD a7s-650?

Chris, what do you think of that 8033 so far ?


I've been really busy with work but I just set it up and did the calibration. Thankfully, I did turn the gain way down on the Submersive. The first sweep sounded just like a helicopter above the house. (I live in the flight path of a military base so I know what this sounds like). After the fourth sweep it was finished so I removed the mic and did some listening to DSOM SACD and some Moody Blues Seventh Sojourn.

Keeping in mind I did not rerun MCACC, adjust the subs distance, or increase the subs gain, I have to say I'm very, very pleased with the result. The Antimode 8033 is extremely easy to use. Just plug n push. The result was dramatic. My Submersive sounds tighter and cleaner with not even a slight hint of boominess. HT was fantastic before the EQ but music was uneven with some tracks. Music is absolutely perfect sounding to me now, with the Submersive integrating beautifully with the Sparks. I really can't imagine it being better for music. I'll try HT tonight and see what happens.

Of course some of this is academic because I'm going to move my rig upstairs to a dedicated space once my Catalysts arrive. :D That will be the true test.

^^^^
waiting patiently... ;)

Hmm... I wonder if I'm the first AVSer to use our new THANKS feature in a friendly yet sarcastic tone? I hope so. :D

Chris- When are you going to place the order for your set of 4 SubMerisives? Or are you going with 4 Terraform XL's????? :p Come on in, the water's fine!

Chris

the thought of 4 submersives in a 13X15 room is downright scary... :eek: not to mention 4 terraforms... :eek: :eek:

between the 7 new sierra's and the great pioneer fire sale earlier in the year, a/v funding has been wiped out, so i'm saving again... hopefully by the end of the year i'll have enough cash in the "a/v envelope" to order one...

Just out of interest how would a dual 15" push/pull configuration sealed sub compare to a submersive. Two opposing drivers against that of a push/pull config.

Which will give me depth, output etc...

cheers

Graham

Graham,

Its not that simple.

You have differences in box size, driver specifications, amps, DSP settings that all have a bearing on performance.

I am a novice so here goes...

Am I to presume that push/pull configs are usually in bigger boxes than dual opposing and would you have to have a bigger dual opposing sub in a bigger box to get the same output as a push/pull.

cheers

Graham

I am a novice so here goes...

Am I to presume that push/pull configs are usually in bigger boxes than dual opposing and would you have to have a bigger dual opposing sub in a bigger box to get the same output as a push/pull.

cheers

Graham

I can only assume you are referring to a configuration like M&K used to use where one driver is mounted inverted (magnet out), but they still all move out from the enclosure at the same time. This has a potential to reduce 2nd order distortion from the driver, but also protrudes much further from the box, and allows any noise from the back side of the driver to be more easily heard. Remember also that while we don't want to intentionally add distortion, 2nd order distortion is the least audibly offensive of them all. The benefit will also depend quite a bit on the driver used.

As for the previous post, it's impossible to compare, as you have variables in the size of the box, the driver you're using, the power available and if you are doing anything to smooth the response, etc. Without measuring the response, you're mostly guessing, even if the guesses are educated. With sufficient power, 2 capable 15" drivers can certainly produce comparable output down low to the SubMersive. All of the other details I've worked out in the design to delivery the strengths the SubMersive has in real use are less likely to be duplicated. DIYers generally go for the approach of providing much more capability in more or larger boxes to minimize some of those issues.

Mark,

Thanks for the response. Right, here's where I'm at. I really want a submersive but cannot stretch to finding the extra funds. Ive heard such brilliant things about it I thought about doing a diy job hence the question.

I currently have a PB13 ultra and am not satisfied with the music playback on it I want a sealed option instead. I live in the UK and have sort of decided to make one with either dual 15" or 18" drivers.

It's a shame you don't supply it as a kit as this would probably be cheaper and I could build it and have a lovely submersive in my living room.

As your knowledge is simply outstanding I would appreciate your help and any advice you could give me.

cheers again.

Graham

how does the SubMersive compare to the eD a7s-650?
No one likes to answer that question for some reason, i have asked the same thing also for A7 - 900 Subwoofer

How does the submersive compare with the new paradigm sub 25 as well

No one likes to answer that question for some reason, i have asked the same thing

How many folks on this planet do you think have listened to both? How many have even heard the eD A7s-650? At this point there is nothing to compare other than specs.

How many folks on this planet do you think have listened to both? How many have even heard the eD A7s-650? At this point there is nothing to compare other than specs.

there are lots of people who have heard both

they just don't like telling us what they think

:p

No one likes to answer that question for some reason, i have asked the same thing

The A7S-650 is a newer product so fewer have heard it, making user comparisons less likely. In my estimation they should be fairly close in maximum capability, but without any posted response shape further comparison would be hugely speculative, as the previous amplifiers ED used has no internal EQ and now they have some included. How exactly that EQ works with the sub and how the amplifier behaves when it clips will make for significant differences in real use in real rooms. The larger cones and lesser required excursion for a given output gives the SubMersive some real advantages, where the headroom and extension to and above 100Hz in the upper octave of the response is an area where I suspect the SubMersive is hard to beat. The ED is the same front dimensions and a little deeper than a Catalyst, and that's no small package. It is a small footprint. The ED goes for huge mass to keep things from moving, where the opposed drivers of the SubMersive make for a much shorter form factor and 95 lbs less weight as extra weight offers no benefit in the SubMersive's opposed driver configuration. The SubMersive also now comes in furniture grade wood veneer finishes, which may or may not be of value.

That's probably the extent of any comparisons which can be made given the information available.

there are lots of people who have heard both

they just don't like telling us what they think

:p

Rather unlikely. :rolleyes:

Mark,

Thanks for the response. Right, here's where I'm at. I really want a submersive but cannot stretch to finding the extra funds. Ive heard such brilliant things about it I thought about doing a diy job hence the question.

I currently have a PB13 ultra and am not satisfied with the music playback on it I want a sealed option instead. I live in the UK and have sort of decided to make one with either dual 15" or 18" drivers.

It's a shame you don't supply it as a kit as this would probably be cheaper and I could build it and have a lovely submersive in my living room.

As your knowledge is simply outstanding I would appreciate your help and any advice you could give me.

cheers again.

Graham

Hello Graham,

You can ask Mark for a shipping quote to the UK. It might be that the shipping cost is very reasonable. The PB13 you have should fetch a decent amount when sold second hand. All things considered, the markup to move to the submersive maybe isn't that high.

Thank you very much Mark for your reply, it is getting harder and harder to buy a sub these days.

Well once i have the right amountt of money saved i will buy a sub but which one? No clue, yours seems to be really good, sub 25 reviews are great beats out the f113 but so does the submersive.

Also the new svs PB16 will have to wait that comes out as well its down to those 3 subs for me. thanks for everyones reply

Mark what should I be looking for in the results for subwoofers performance? how low or how high? the roll off etc...

Thank you very much Mark for your reply, it is getting harder and harder to buy a sub these days.

Well once i have the right amountt of money saved i will buy a sub but which one? No clue, yours seems to be really good, sub 25 reviews are great beats out the f113 but so does the submersive.

Also the new svs PB16 will have to wait that comes out as well its down to those 3 subs for me. thanks for everyones reply

Mark what should I be looking for in the results for subwoofers performance? how low or how high? the roll off etc...
You might check the craigsub "Subwoofer review summary page"

TCA Link (http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11)

It's obviously not all inclusive.

Mike

I have not heard the Submersive, but I personally know some who have, and I've read many people's accounts about them. From all the info I gathered there simply is no better sealed subwoofer on the consumer market. Period. If I had not built a coupe of my own with a friend, I would have certainly gone with a Submersive. Heck, I still wish I would have gone that route. :)

YMMV, of course, but IMO the Submersive is the best of the best, and my number 1 number 1. ;)

Rather unlikely. :rolleyes:

of course. that's why i used the ":p" smiley after i type that

:)

Hello,
I bought a pair of used SubMersives from the member that started this thread. (WarrenBuffett - Grew on Mark's forum) [No I did not ask him why he needed to sell them]
1.) Mark supplied shipping boxes so they arrived in good shape.
2.) The DSPs had been updated by shipping the plate amps back to Mark. (By the original owner)
3.) Now the reason for this post: I had contacted Mark, asking what glue he used on the grills because over time the cloth had loosened. He said to send them to him, as he had changed the method used to attach the cloth to the grill frame & he would take care of it at NO CHARGE! When he received them, he jumped right on the repair and they were on their way back to me in a couple of days. (Saturday delivery even)

Now that is service, and I did not even directly purchase the subs from him!

Carl

I doubt Mark could stand the thought of any less-than-perfect Submersives floating around out there. :cool:

I doubt Mark could stand the thought of any less-than-perfect Submersives floating around out there. :cool:

Yes, god forbid there be a SubMersive in the wild with no grills!!!!!

Oh wait a minute.... :D