Seaton Sound SubMersive1

[WarrenBuffett]

Just had Mark Seaton over to install my 2 SubMersives, it being late and all I will keep my initial post on this MONSTER of a sub short. My family room turned home theater room is a difficult room that opens up into appx 800 sq feet of kitchen and dining room. Just 1 was able to handle the room by itself, 2 just abused the area.

http://www.killigrew.net/images/rocket/SMS1a.jpg
http://www.killigrew.net/images/rocket/SMS1b.jpg

Thanks Mark for re-confirming why I love this hobby and am glad there are people like you out there making such ridiculous products like the SubMersive!

[Exocer]

Nice!
Looking forward to your review ;)

[xcjago]

You must tell us more. What demos did you try? What subs did you have before and is there any comparison?

[MIkeDuke]

OK.
Now I am excited. I will be getting one of these after CES in my 1000cf room :D. I can not wait. I just know that it will be unlike anything I have ever experienced. Post your thoughts when you have more time.

[Art Sonneborn]

The initial reviews from some guys over here in HEMI are extremely positive.

Art

[MIkeDuke]

Yea. I can believe it. I have talked to some other people who have it and they say that it is just fan-freakin-tastick. So Art, can I be let into the big boys club now?

[TJEli]

Great news. Craig should be getting his hands on one or 2 of these soon. I am looking very forward to seeing some results. Should be excellent.

There are some very exciting new products on the subwoofer front. JL, SVS, SeatonSound, AV123, HSU..... They are all setting standards higher than they have ever been before.

-Eli

[bossobass]

4X15" sealed, tweaked by Seaton...what can I say that I haven't been saying for years? :) :D :cool:

Congrats on a very fine addition to your HT.

I'm with everyone else here...tell us more!

Bosso

[TheEAR]

Question to Mark Seaton or anyone who knows...maybe a dumb question.

Where do I order a SubMersive? :)

Now we need tests done A/B comparos VS the JL f113. In any case I need one.

[MIkeDuke]

check your PM

[mcallister]

I'd also like to know where to order a submersive?

[TheEAR]

Thanks Mike.



WarrenB.,

Could you take some close up pics of the Submersive woofers.I know the grills come off.If you have time.

Thank you.


This is the kind of forum I like,full of audiophiles,sub bass addicts and even the designers of the products post here! :)

[ssabripo]

this thread is missing something...... :D

[MIkeDuke]

I'd also like to know where to order a submersive?
Check your PM

[spidermanpants]

What about a 230 Volt version for us Brits (and the rest of Europe)??

[MIkeDuke]

I would guess not at first. But maybe down the line he could do something like that.

[WarrenBuffett]

WarrenB.,

Could you take some close up pics of the Submersive woofers.I know the grills come off.If you have time.

Thank you.


http://www.killigrew.net/images/rocket/SMS1c.jpg
http://www.killigrew.net/images/rocket/SMS1d.jpg

[WarrenBuffett]

Backgroud:
I am fairly new to Home Theater so my experience is a bit less robust than most of you who post here. I am more or less a lurker rather than a poster but read the forum daily.

My Subwoofer ownership experience has been limited to A couple of failed DIY sub builds as well as a pair of Klipsh KSW-12's.

I have heard almost every iteration of SVS (with the exception of the newer models) 1 DIY sonotube (tuned to 16hz), and a Velodyne DD15.

So as you can tell I am a bit of a newbie when it comes to "real" LFE devices.

Mini Review:

I have to keep this review short due to the fact i've only been able to view about 10 scenes with the SubMersives. The most recent being the Lightning strike and Pod emergence from War of the Worlds. This has resulted in a Huge mess.... My projector completely came unaligned, one of the HVAC vents in the wall opposite the subs came out about 1" from the wall (it is an old house and a bad HVAC install), I dislodged an electrical outlet cover that wasn't secured, and dislodged one of my DVI plugs (not screwed in) coming into my computer on the 2nd floor. (That was at -5db on my pre/pro, reference is at 0db)

Oh and I don't belive i've felt that scared from a scene i've seen countless times.



The thing that amazes me the most about these Subs is their ability to convince you of the reality of the situation being displayed on screen. The Bass is accurate, not showy or boomy, and and no other sub I have heard has been able to accomplish this combination of Loud and Accurate.

Another tangible value that this sub offers is the man who created it, Mark Seaton. I don't' think i need to add another feather to Mark's cap as I'm sure its full already, but I am amazed at his depth of knowledge and passion for this industry. If you meet Mark, you will buy his products. They represent the future of Home Theater.

[MIkeDuke]

"This has resulted in a Huge mess.... My projector completely came unaligned, one of the HVAC vents in the wall opposite the subs came out about 1" from the wall (it is an old house and a bad HVAC install), I dislodged an electrical outlet cover that wasn't secured, and dislodged one of my DVI plugs (not screwed in) coming into my computer on the 2nd floor."
WOW I haven't heard many other subs really causing physical damage to a room. We have all heard the "It shook my room like nothing else" but this is actual proof

[Richard Mayer]

My Subwoofer ownership experience has been limited to A couple of failed DIY sub builds as well as a pair of Klipsh KSW-12's.

I have heard almost every iteration of SVS (with the exception of the newer models) 1 DIY sonotube (tuned to 16hz), and a Velodyne DD15.

So as you can tell I am a bit of a newbie when it comes to "real" LFE devices.

Now that wasn't nice... ;)

Mini Review:

I have to keep this review short due to the fact i've only been able to view about 10 scenes with the SubMersives. The most recent being the Lightning strike and Pod emergence from War of the Worlds. This has resulted in a Huge mess.... My projector completely came unaligned, one of the HVAC vents in the wall opposite the subs came out about 1" from the wall (it is an old house and a bad HVAC install), I dislodged an electrical outlet cover that wasn't secured, and dislodged one of my DVI plugs (not screwed in) coming into my computer on the 2nd floor. (That was at -5db on my pre/pro, reference is at 0db)

Oh and I don't belive i've felt that scared from a scene i've seen countless times.

What, no dislocated shoulder? :D

Congrats! It must be a great product.

[Adam-DiVine]

I would also like to know where to get info on ordering a Submersive

[WarrenBuffett]

"This has resulted in a Huge mess.... My projector completely came unaligned, one of the HVAC vents in the wall opposite the subs came out about 1" from the wall (it is an old house and a bad HVAC install), I dislodged an electrical outlet cover that wasn't secured, and dislodged one of my DVI plugs (not screwed in) coming into my computer on the 2nd floor."
WOW I haven't heard many other subs really causing physical damage to a room. We have all heard the "It shook my room like nothing else" but this is actual proof

The house is a rental and is not of top quality internals. I knew beforehand that the HVAC vent was loose but i was extremely amazed to see that it actually moved that much.

[MIkeDuke]

Rental or not, that is still impressive. But then you do have TWO of them :D .

[TJEli]

Warren,

Are you willing to remove a driver and take some pics of it and the inside of the enclosure?

-Eli

[WarrenBuffett]

Warren,

Are you willing to remove a driver and take some pics of it and the inside of the enclosure?

-Eli

I'm going to leave that to the experts (like craigsub) as I would probably do irreparable damage.

[Mark Seaton]

What about a 230 Volt version for us Brits (and the rest of Europe)??

The amplifier is 230V ready, and unlike some, is both CE and UL Certified. Oh yeah, it costs too much, but you guys are worth it. ;)

Honestly the website has taken a slight back-seat to getting the early customers all taken care of who are waiting on product while I'm making sure all the details are settled with the first batches built up. To save a bunch of questions, the SubMersive will sell direct for $1995. I will have select dealers, but those will primarily consist of knowledgeable and capable system integrators and designers.

[johnlarsen]

did not i tell u that the SUB1 was the real deal?

r u using any form of linearized motor technology on these drivers, mark?

isnt that amp the same one that DANLEY is selling for DTS20?

[Mark Seaton]

Warren,

Are you willing to remove a driver and take some pics of it and the inside of the enclosure?

-Eli

Hi Eli,

While the later arriving, premium finish cabinets will be MDF construction, the architectural finish version you see is built locally from 18mm Baltic Birch Ply cut via CNC. The only reason I can justify the added cost of them is that the build house is local and very flexible with me as I've worked with them for 5+ years and they have very reasonable lead times. Construction is simple but well thought out. Each driver baffle is 1.5" thick, with the sides, top and bottom 0.75" thick. There are two full braces that are parallel to the driver baffle that flank the amplifier location, making for a minimum of unbraced panel width in the box. I'll save others from having to open up a SubMersive and in the near future I'll post a shot of a box before the drivers and amplifier get loaded.

[Randybes]

The amplifier is 230V ready, and unlike some, is both CE and UL Certified. Oh yeah, it costs too much, but you guys are worth it. ;)

Honestly the website has taken a slight back-seat to getting the early customers all taken care of who are waiting on product while I'm making sure all the details are settled with the first batches built up. To save a bunch of questions, the SubMersive will sell direct for $1995. I will have select dealers, but those will primarily consist of knowledgeable and capable system integrators and designers.Any timeline on when they will be available for preorder?

[TheEAR]

WarrenB.,

Thanks alot for the woofer close up pics. Looks like two drivers do the job here.And sealed...opposed sides. Hmm no moving back and forth with this sub.

You damaged the room and pictures where not knocked from the walls! :p

With all the subsonics at my disposition I have yet to damage my audio rooms,I know I can damage hearing. ;) I have to admit everything was fixed so even very loud and very deepbass does not create audible parasitic vibrations
.

Mark Seaton,

I am impatient to see tests and order one,maybe even two.I'll stack them.

[crackyflipside]

So.... Where are the specs for this sub, a DIY guy loves reading numbers!

[MIkeDuke]

Flip, check your PM

[Mark Seaton]

While I need to do another set of more ideal measurements, preliminary ground plane response of the SubMersive is +/-3dB 20-200Hz, +/-12dB extends down to 14Hz, and 10Hz is -12dB the 20Hz level.

Here's a link to an earlier response measurement with zero smoothing (2Hz resolution) and with a few reflections making for some wiggle at higher frequencies. 1m frequency response - 100dB @ 20Hz (http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/SubMersive_1m_response.jpg)

Below 20Hz there is 6-8dB more output capability beyond this measurement, and a LOT more available higher in frequency.

Final dimensions are 17.5" x 23.25" x 24.75" tall plus 3/4" feet. The feet usually translate to ~25" of height on carpet or 25.5" on a hardwood floor.

[thebland]

Congratulations Mark! This product is a major ball buster from what I have heard and you deserve all the success coming your way!

[johnlarsen]

While I need to do another set of more ideal measurements, preliminary ground plane response of the SubMersive is +/-3dB 20-200Hz, +/-12dB extends down to 14Hz, and 10Hz is -12dB the 20Hz level.

Here's a link to an earlier response measurement with zero smoothing (2Hz resolution) and with a few reflections making for some wiggle at higher frequencies. 1m frequency response - 100dB @ 20Hz (http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/SubMersive_1m_response.jpg)

Below 20Hz there is 6-8dB more output capability beyond this measurement, and a LOT more available higher in frequency.

Final dimensions are 17.5" x 23.25" x 24.75" tall plus 3/4" feet. The feet usually translate to ~25" of height on carpet or 25.5" on a hardwood floor.

So you opted NOT to use LINEAR moto tech in your drivers. i wonder why. JL AUDIO, TC SOUNDS, and HSU are using it

[Mark Seaton]

Hi John,

All motors are linear over some range. ;)

When you have a pair of large 15" cones and aren't loosing significant surface area to 2" wide surrounds, linearity can be quite good as the cones don't have to move very far for very prodigious output. By optimizing the driver parameters for sufficient sensitivity at low frequencies, I am able to employ two 15" drivers, in an inert enclosure with two 3" voice coils. This results in less need for huge excursion, and less need to get around the inherent hurdles of designing such drivers. Through the development process I have not yet found reliable and viable options in the so-called linear motor designs that were suiltable or preferrable for the performance and value of the SubMersive. I am always working with different suppliers for continued improvement in the future, and I may incorportate such motor designs at some point in the future. That said, solid subwoofer performance requires a lot more than just using an alledgedly "linear motor." There is a lot more to execution of a design, and it is more about selecting parts that predominantly operate within their operating limits to achieve the desired goals.

[wje]

"This has resulted in a Huge mess.... My projector completely came unaligned, one of the HVAC vents in the wall opposite the subs came out about 1" from the wall (it is an old house and a bad HVAC install), I dislodged an electrical outlet cover that wasn't secured, and dislodged one of my DVI plugs (not screwed in) coming into my computer on the 2nd floor."
WOW I haven't heard many other subs really causing physical damage to a room. We have all heard the "It shook my room like nothing else" but this is actual proof
Sounds like a wonderful product endorsement. :D :D

[TheEAR]

Mark S.,

Where do I sign up for your Submersive subs? Where is the web page,where is the shopping basket.I want a SubMersive. Serious buyer here.

[WarrenBuffett]

Update.... Just watched Batman Begins... The scene when the water mains explode caused my PJ to go way out of alignment again. I think i'm going to have to get better Projector Mount or tighten the screws a lot more. All other rattling and assorted problems have been fixed (i hope).

[DrewB]

You're running those bad boys off hardwood floors - that's probably why everything is jumping around. May want to look into one or two subdudes.

[johnlarsen]

Hi John,

All motors are linear over some range. ;)

When you have a pair of large 15" cones and aren't loosing significant surface area to 2" wide surrounds, linearity can be quite good as the cones don't have to move very far for very prodigious output. By optimizing the driver parameters for sufficient sensitivity at low frequencies, I am able to employ two 15" drivers, in an inert enclosure with two 3" voice coils. This results in less need for huge excursion, and less need to get around the inherent hurdles of designing such drivers. Through the development process I have not yet found reliable and viable options in the so-called linear motor designs that were suiltable or preferrable for the performance and value of the SubMersive. I am always working with different suppliers for continued improvement in the future, and I may incorportate such motor designs at some point in the future. That said, solid subwoofer performance requires a lot more than just using an alledgedly "linear motor." There is a lot more to execution of a design, and it is more about selecting parts that predominantly operate within their operating limits to achieve the desired goals.

this be correct, Mark^2 :D the benefit though of the linear motor is the distortion lower, but u know that

do ya place any stock on ThD distortions for subs?

woulud be reallllllyyyyyyy interesting to see craig shootout of Sub1 and f113!!!!!! it be a good fight me thinks

[TheEAR]

Update.... Just watched Batman Begins... The scene when the water mains explode caused my PJ to go way out of alignment again. I think i'm going to have to get better Projector Mount or tighten the screws a lot more. All other rattling and assorted problems have been fixed (i hope).

I think you are holding a baseball bat and taking swings at your projector.

At least say pictures fell of the walls! :p

[Mark Seaton]

You're running those bad boys off hardwood floors - that's probably why everything is jumping around. May want to look into one or two subdudes.

Hi Drew,

The subdudes would have zero effect. The opposed mounting of the drivers results in a entirely inert enclosure, even at the highest drive levels. The SubMersive enclosures are probably the most stable things in the room. :rolleyes:

I also believe that the hardwood floor you see is on slab, at most there is a crawl space, but I don't believe so. All vibrations noted are acoustically induced.

[bossobass]

The initial reviews from some guys over here in HEMI are extremely positive.

Art

Art,

I just finished checking out your site. The theater and the latest G2G you hosted just blew me away. You are indeed one classy guy, and the attendees have something to remember, IMHO.

A very respectful tip o' the hat. Very cool stuff.

Bosso

[Ettepet]

Warren, could you show us a picture of the amp section? :)

[WarrenBuffett]

You're running those bad boys off hardwood floors - that's probably why everything is jumping around. May want to look into one or two subdudes.

Submersive does not move. not one bit. Even when we were running really high DB's they didn't move. The house has no basement and AFAIK no crawl space. it was built back in 1890 i believe and has been poorly renovated (its a rental property). All of my issues are from my neglect to tighten screws (why my projector keeps moving during heavy LFE scenes), and poor construction of the house.

I do not have an ideal room and the SubMersives easily handle it.

Also I apologize for my fanboy attitude as this has definately been the biggest transformation in my theater since i went to a front projection setup.

Anyone in the Chicago area can PM me if they want to stop by and see what these bad boys can do.

[WarrenBuffett]

You're running those bad boys off hardwood floors - that's probably why everything is jumping around. May want to look into one or two subdudes.

Pod Emergence -5 volume..... video with 2 coins on top of submersive

SubMersive Coins (http://www.killigrew.net/images/rocket/MVI_0096.AVI)

[CollinViegas]

Are us Canadians going to be able to order the Submersive 1 up here o the North?

[TheEAR]

WarrenB.,

May impress the masses,problem is...

This is a sub using two identical woofers that are opposed. You should see almost no movement even full tilt blasting til your eardrums give.

A single woofer sub like the JL f112/113 may shake like this from the massive strokes of the cpiston at deafening SPL.

hmmm

[TheEAR]

Are us Canadians going to be able to order the Submersive 1 up here o the North?

Exactly my question,I did send a PM to Mark Seaton today. lets wait and see.

[CSEmoses]

ok, i have headphones on, lol, but that pod emergence scene sounds really fricken deep ;) those coins didnt move even a tiny bit!

.... and yeah, i'd also sure like to know if we Canadians are going to be able to order one of those Submersives. What is the final weight of the unit?

[Mark Seaton]

Are us Canadians going to be able to order the Submersive 1 up here o the North?

I see no reason why the SubMersive won't make it across the border just like any other subwoofer from a US manufacturer. I don't have any plans for a Canadian distributor if that's what you were indirectly asking, but aside from the costs involved, shipping to Canada shouldn't be a problem.

[Mark Seaton]

ok, i have headphones on, lol, but that pod emergence scene sounds really fricken deep ;) those coins didnt move even a tiny bit!

.... and yeah, i'd also sure like to know if we Canadians are going to be able to order one of those Submersives. What is the final weight of the unit?

It's more impressive when the coins are ballanced on end. :cool:

I should have exact shipping weight confirmed next week as I recently changed some packing details. The subwoofer itself is about 100 lbs.

[Need4spdnb]

Hey Mark,

I shot ya an email and PM, but your probably a tad busy these days. :)
I would love to pick up one of these submersives. If you could shoot me a PM letting me know how to do so, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[craig john]

Just had Mark Seaton over to install my 2 SubMersives, it being late and all I will keep my initial post on this MONSTER of a sub short.
I don't mean this in any negative way, but I think it's important to note that Mark Seaton actually installed these subs himself. I have read more than one thread where MS has been hired to optimize an HT. In addition to being an expert at sub installation, his expertise has been utilized to do more than just install the subwoofer. He can, by all accounts, optimize the speakers by adjusting placement, toe-in, etc., optimize the bass management, the phase, any and all peripheral EQ systems, and tweak the overall system to sound better.

Mark, could you describe the installation you performed for WarrenBuffett? Also, will your installation services be included with some or all of these systems, or do you charge an installation fee?

Craig

[MIkeDuke]

Mark,
I sent you a PM and email
Thanks :)
Mike

[Jack Gilvey]

Looking good...a $2000 sub that might actually be worth it. :) Interesting to see how it does against the Fathom thingie...be nice if someone the calibre of Mullen got his hands on one or both.

[wje]

Looking good...a $2000 sub that might actually be worth it. :) Interesting to see how it does against the Fathom thingie...be nice if someone the calibre of Mullen got his hands on one or both.
If you catch the other thread, you'll see that Mr. Ed now works for SVS. :cool:

[johnlarsen]

finally cat is let out of bag about *that*, i was saying that one year ago :D even told Mark^2 (and big kahuna Mark^1) about that, now he knows i am and was right.

[GaryMB]

Hi, Mark. It's obviously early in the game, but is a smaller version of the SubMersive, perhaps using 12" drivers, a realistic possibility at some point?

[wje]

finally cat is let out of bag about *that*, i was saying that one year ago :D even told Mark^2 (and big kahuna Mark^1) about that, now he knows i am and was right.
Well, maybe, you should have posted that information in the *official* thread sanctioned by Alan Gouger. ;) ;)

[sandbagger]

Are us Canadians going to be able to order the Submersive 1 up here o the North?

Should be no problem and the great thing is its made in the USA so you got to love NAFTA.... not sure how well it works out for your direction but the other way I get all my taxes back from canada.

I am actually one of 2 beta testers that Mark used to make sure things were right. I received my sub back in august and have kept things kind of quiet for several reasons ( just no time to keep up on the forum for one) this sub has been just awsome. The amount of energy this thing has under 20-30hz is just crazy. The opposed drivers make for a box that we had a nickel actually standing on edge( yes I said EDGE) for a bunch of demo material. Warrens not the first to have damage from a submersive.... mine actually vibrated the door handle to the theater loose :) and some stuff will actually vibrate my CRT projector to the point were the blue tube internally will vibrate enough you can see it on the screen.

I don't know exactly where in the NORTH you are at but if your within driving distance of Detroit.... your more than welcome to come listen to the Submersive in my theater. And that offer stands for anyone willing to make the trip into the detroit area(west side subs)

[Art Sonneborn]

Yea. I can believe it. I have talked to some other people who have it and they say that it is just fan-freakin-tastick. So Art, can I be let into the big boys club know?

Well, if I had the key I'd give you a copy. ;) :D

Art

[pbc]

not sure how well it works out for your direction but the other way I get all my taxes back from canada.

Well, let's see. We get hit with up to 14% sales tax (depending on which province you live), duties, brokerage fees, usually a credit card fee on the exchange rate ...

It ain't that great coming the other way! NAFTA shmafta :D !

[new27]

indeed, nafta is a joke for Canadians ordering from the US

I drive to the Detroit and Bufallo as much as possible to save GST and all the other
bs fees, ususally the GST savings alone pay for my van rental and then I save on
brokerage, duties, and huge shipping charges

[new27]

so will this sub be offered with any furniture grade finishes?

[TheEAR]

so will this sub be offered with any furniture grade finishes?

I would like to know the same,as GORGEOUS ...fine textured black...is great for HT but we know the Submersive can be used as a sub in a two channel music system.

[WarrenBuffett]

so will this sub be offered with any furniture grade finishes?


As far as i know, it will have furniture grade finishes.

[kgveteran]

finally cat is let out of bag about *that*, i was saying that one year ago :D even told Mark^2 (and big kahuna Mark^1) about that, now he knows i am and was right.

The only reason Ed liked SVS so much was that they produced a product that was far and away better than anything else for the money.It was proven through a systematic evaluation as was other subwoofer that didn't do as well. He was recognised for his ability and his intelect. And you are recognised for your.....hmmm :D

SVS has raised the bar quite high and there is alot of competition now. With the likes of JL,Seaton,Hsu ect. Looks like the move to go to SVS was a match made.

Way to go Seaton.Nothing better than another great product that has your seal on it.Guys that can't DIY or really don't care to can get real products that reflect the love of the game.

[Spezzy]

Where would one order one of these monsters? I've been looking all over the place, can't find any links or anything.

This would be my most expensive investment, since I am 15. I really want to get every penny's worth from it. My current sub right now is a DLS-5000R that I got 2 years ago. I was thinking of a PB12+/2 but the F113 completely demolishes it. How does the Submersive compare to the F113 and the PB12+2?

[xcjago]

The submersive should be very close if not surpass the F113 and the PB12/Plus 2 in performance. It has high output 120+db in the 30hz+ range and 100+db down to around 8hz. Neither the F113 nor the PB12/plus 2 can extend that deep. Send a PM to Mark Seaton for more info.

Wow, having one of these monsters at 15 would be insane, lol. I'm 25, and I can't bring myself to spend $2000 on a sub.

[TheEAR]

The submersive should be very close if not surpass the F113 and the PB12/Plus 2 in performance. It has high output 120+db in the 30hz+ range and 100+db down to around 8hz. Neither the F113 nor the PB12/plus 2 can extend that deep. Send a PM to Mark Seaton for more info.

Wow, having one of these monsters at 15 would be insane, lol. I'm 25, and I can't bring myself to spend $2000 on a sub.


Rolls off to much and a very rolled off response down very deep is not a prime decision maker.It is quality in the audible range,this sets the f113 apart from even the DD18!

I just finished listening to Reference Recordings Pomp & Pipes...AMAZING,the room shook with power you expect from large vented subs! Track 4 and track 9 have abyss deep bass of very large pipe organs. Has to be felt to understand what a great sub can do. The f113 does it justice,even the HGS18 failed to deliver with complete authority! The SUbmersive has to be pited VS the f113 ASAP.

[funlvr1965]

well since the cats out of the bag now( sorry Mark we tried to keep it quiet as long as we could) let me just say that this sub is something to behold, I watched king kong this past weekend and let me tell you this sub is something else I live in a condo and do not dare bring this sub to reference level for fear of pissing everyone off and even at the levels that I listen to it at which is still fairly high the word "frightening" comes to mind. I originally had 2 m&k mx-5000 subs, amazing subs by most who have experienced them, one submersive plays louder and deeper than my two m&k subs and mind you I have not even dared to go into reference levels, this is the first sub that im literally afraid of in my room, if anyone has seen the movie " the interpretor" with sean penn and nicole kidman, there is a scene where a bomb explodes on a bus, all I can say is that it felt like a religous experience. here are some pics of my visit with me and mark a few weeks back when my wife and I and another couple came to pick up the sub, there is a shot of us carrying the sub which will give you an idea of scale, Mark will be over in a couple of weeks to calibrate and tweak the sub and the parametric QSC eq I just got, as well as the rest of the audio system. Only a fool would pass up this much performance for this price!

[funlvr1965]

:d

[funlvr1965]

:eek:

[TheEAR]

"Only a fool would pass up this much performance for this price! "

I pitty the fool who would dare. :)

One thing is sure,Mark Seaton better have a page where I can order one,who knows maybe I'll get two. I aint no fool.

Mark are you listening,you need to have a web page where I can buy,VISA,Master,PayPal...whatever.Just realise there are people right here who need them. ;)

[MIkeDuke]

I can not wait. Jan can not get here fast enough :). I am sooooooooooo excited. Can't you tell. :D :D :D : :eek: :eek:

It should be outstanding.
The waiting game begins...

[---k---]

Mark,

I'm a little suprised by the FR graph you posted. It appears to be a very natural sealed sub response, without any LT/EQ used to boost the low end. I thought you were using the onboard DSP to extend the low end. I remember when I saw the demo with your early design in St. Charles, I was really impressed with the low end, and it sounds like your beta testers are equally impressed.

So, what am I missing? Does Kevin and Warren have that much room gain? Or am I misreading your FR graph?

I also remember you mentioning that you wanted to have a couple differnt programs in your DSP, one for a big room (with less room gain?) and one for a smaller rooms. Does this work out for you?

BTW, I do think that this is a real killer sub for those looking to spend over $1500. Congrats.

[Mark Seaton]

Mark,

I'm a little suprised by the FR graph you posted. It appears to be a very natural sealed sub response, without any LT/EQ used to boost the low end. I thought you were using the onboard DSP to extend the low end. I remember when I saw the demo with your early design in St. Charles, I was really impressed with the low end, and it sounds like your beta testers are equally impressed.

So, what am I missing? Does Kevin and Warren have that much room gain? Or am I misreading your FR graph?

I also remember you mentioning that you wanted to have a couple differnt programs in your DSP, one for a big room (with less room gain?) and one for a smaller rooms. Does this work out for you?

BTW, I do think that this is a real killer sub for those looking to spend over $1500. Congrats.

Hi Ryan,

The part you might be overlooking is the relation of the size of the enclosure and the frequency response you see. I don't know of any pair of 15" woofers that will fit in this size enclosure and give you this sort of response without electronic correction of some form. There are also some less obvious advantages to the chosen design so far as efficiency and real playback levels in typical use. That said, the response is still fits a 6dB window (+/-3dB) down to 19-20Hz out to about 200Hz. The scale shown isn't that large, so remember that the graph is only showing 5dB/division, and the left hand side is 8Hz.

If you look back I have always stated that a ground plane measurement will show nominal extension into the 18-20Hz range. The interesting part is when you place it in most rooms used for home theater, especially dedicated spaces. WarrenBuffet, this thread's original poster, has a room that was a little more of a surprise than expected, as the response in his room that opens on the left to much more space still showed in-room response that was flat to the 10-12Hz range appart from a modal peak in the 30-40Hz range. I'll see if I can post graphs from his room. I was out of town this weekend with another install, and the response in this room after killing a 40Hz modal peak was +/-3dB from 10Hz to 100Hz. I think I might have shaped the response closer to +/-3.5 dB over that range by the time I was finished. The addition of that extension has been quite noticable and significant in my experience thus far.

So yes, many rooms do have that much room gain, as I have been documenting for quite a while now, going back to when I started taming bDeaps for use in home theaters. The SubMersive is designed to take advantage of any available gain, and has been doing exactly that in installations thus far. Every room has its quirks, and there are cases where some locations have shown holes at some frequencies down low, but the gain is always there in some useful form. For those with huge, vaulted rooms that are open to the rest of a huge house, the BMF design will probably suit the need better, although multiples of the smaller SubMersive, while costing more, will still offer advantages in large spaces if you have EQ available and measns of measurement.

[Mark Seaton]

"Only a fool would pass up this much performance for this price! "

I pitty the fool who would dare. :)

One thing is sure,Mark Seaton better have a page where I can order one,who knows maybe I'll get two. I aint no fool.

Mark are you listening,you need to have a web page where I can buy,VISA,Master,PayPal...whatever.Just realise there are people right here who need them. ;)

That is all getting worked out. At the moment all of the subs I have all parts for are spoken for. I am waiting to confirm when I will receive more parts. I'm also just finishing out some packaging and shipping details. Basically I'm not inclined to take money through my website until I can confidently tell people when the product they are ordering will be available. This should all be sorted out by the 1st of the year though. For now sales are word of mouth and by way of directly contacting me. - I appologize to those I still owe a response to. Starting production of a new product is always an interesting adventure. :rolleyes:

[sandbagger]

I was out of town this weekend with another install, and the response in this room after killing a 40Hz modal peak was +/-3dB from 10Hz to 100Hz. I think I might have shaped the response closer to +/-3.5 dB over that range by the time I was finished.


WOW.... that is pretty damm nice mark....

Should I add a pic of what we were able to get out of my room here?


And I am always available to anyone that would like to hear/feel a Demo

[new27]

"Basically I'm not inclined to take money through my website until I can confidently tell people when the product they are ordering will be available."

what is the url?

[new27]

btw, the sheer specs appear quite spectacular, count me in for one as soon as
the special finishes are available

[Mark Seaton]

WOW.... that is pretty damm nice mark....

Should I add a pic of what we were able to get out of my room here?


And I am always available to anyone that would like to hear/feel a Demo


Thanks for the offer to demo to others Kevin. Indeed, the response I arrived at was very good, and didn't require all that much EQ, probably 6-8dB total, and mostly at 40Hz.

Feel free to post up the responses we took in your room. Here are two I had bookmarked myself:

you can see in Kevin's room where some structural resonance or more likely the ductwork is absorbing energy in the 12-14Hz region. I suspect the duct for the projector hot-air exhaust is the culprit, but tough to say for sure.

Response after inital pass of EQ at main seat. (http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/SubMersive-Kevin-wEQ.jpg)

and

Increasing sweep levels at the listening position, prior to EQ. (http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/SubMersive-Kevin-output.jpg)

[Mark Seaton]

btw, the sheer specs appear quite spectacular, count me in for one as soon as
the special finishes are available

Thank you new27, I'm working to have the premium finishes available before the end of February. You can find my future website address if you look in my profile here.

[MIkeDuke]

Man alive Mark. I have said it before, but that is one serious sub you got there. I noticed on the first chart the sweep went down to 4Hz. And on the second one, the max spl looked like it was about to hit 125db. WOW. I guess I might need some paper towels in my room to account for the drool factor.

[sandbagger]

Man alive Mark. WOW. I guess I might need some paper towels in my room to account for the drool factor.

Yea good thing I have the lifetime factory fabric protection on my chairs eh ?

not only did we almost get to 125db.... and almost 100 at 8hz plus that 4hz was still almost 85db on that sweep..... and his TEF starts to roll off about 6 or so if I remember correctly. This sub will make the theater room door BREATH... I am waiting for it to just blow the center out of it one of these times( its just a luan door)

just for reference the room is about 2300ft^3.

All that with a sub that if it wasnt setting in the room and you were looking at it you wouldnt know it was in the room. One thing EVERYONE has said is that it dosent sound like there is a sub.... it just sounds like the mains GO VERRY VERRY LOW.

[MIkeDuke]

This is what Mark is expecting in my room
"I'm expecting about 105dB+ at 10Hz :eek: in your room, probably
near 120dB @ 20Hz :eek: :eek: , and 125dB capability above 35-45Hz :eek: :eek: :eek:"
This is quite a performer.
It should be quite an event.

[TheEAR]

"One thing EVERYONE has said is that it dosent sound like there is a sub.... it just sounds like the mains GO VERRY VERRY LOW. "

Yes yes,this is what a great sub will do.



Mark S.,

Good to know,I will wait. Wait for a premium finish,please do not forget GLOSS BLACK.I may even purchase two Submersive subs if you have them in GLOSS BLACK. :)


So far looks like a killer sub,around 2K a definite bargain!

[Shane Martin]

Given those specs I am definitely drooling.

I'm not in until next year but I'm defiinitely considering it.

One question: The calibration aspects. Are you actually available to perform such a thing? I assume it's because you are close by to these folks.

My room is bigger than most 3600 cubic feet but one might do the trick. I don't know though.

[sandbagger]

Given those specs I am definitely drooling.

I'm not in until next year but I'm defiinitely considering it.

One question: The calibration aspects. Are you actually available to perform such a thing? I assume it's because you are close by to these folks.

My room is bigger than most 3600 cubic feet but one might do the trick. I don't know though.

Yes those specs will make one drool.... They did me when mark was still in the design phase of this sub.

As far as I know he has a TEF and will travel but you will have to talk to him about that..... I know he has set up systems some distance away

I will bet that he would sugest a 2nd submersive but.... one would get you some decent output :rolleyes:

[Art Sonneborn]

I guess it's time to come clean,Marks install he was doing was at my home. I have four of the Seaton Submersives complementing my Seaton XL fronts now.

I've been tremendously busy so I've had time only to give a real preliminary listen. I cut to the chase this evening and put in Master and Commander ! :D Well if you would like to know what it feels like to be standing on the deck of a tall ship during a cannon battle you should stop by. :eek: I certainly am getting a whole new level of tactile effects and just raw power. It seems to be very very clean and it is just so much fun to sit there getting crystal clear dialog as my seat, pants and hair are shaking.

At this point I'm not sure if I should congratulate myself on my decision or Mark for his engineering and passion.

I will post more after a more in depth run tomorrow evening.

Art

[TheEAR]

Art,

Four Submersive subs! Very impressive sub bass you must have there.

And what is a Seaton XL ? If I may ask.

[funlvr1965]

crazy dynamic powered mains created by mark, oh you thought he only designed subs? :eek: send him to your webpage art!! :) Ive got one of the submersives in my room it simply rocks, thinking about a second one but I will have to check for structural integrity first !

[thehun]

I guess it's time to come clean,Marks install he was doing was at my home. I have four of the Seaton Submersives complementing my Seaton XL fronts now.

I've been tremendously busy so I've had time only to give a real preliminary listen. I cut to the chase this evening and put in Master and Commander ! :D Well if you would like to know what it feels like to be standing on the deck of a tall ship during a cannon battle you should stop by. :eek: I certainly am getting a whole new level of tactile effects and just raw power. It seems to be very very clean and it is just so much fun to sit there getting crystal clear dialog as my seat, pants and hair are shaking.

At this point I'm not sure if I should congratulate myself on my decision or Mark for his engineering and passion.

I will post more after a more in depth run tomorrow evening.

Art

I know you had 4 SVS subs but I forgot if it was the Plus/2 or the Ultra/2?

[Ettepet]

I know you had 4 SVS subs but I forgot if it was the Plus/2 or the Ultra/2?
4x Plus/2. There are/were some pictures on his site where you could see them being installed.

[Stereodude]

I guess it's time to come clean,Marks install he was doing was at my home. I have four of the Seaton Submersives complementing my Seaton XL fronts now.
Art, you are one crazy dude! Now I can't miss your next meet.

[Art Sonneborn]

Yes, the XL is the name he has designated for his large front channel speakers.

Here they are during installation next to my Triad classic Golds:


http://www.artsonneborn.com/assets/images/db_images/db_Fronts_01a2.jpg

Art

[Mark Seaton]

I guess it's time to come clean,Marks install he was doing was at my home. I have four of the Seaton Submersives complementing my Seaton XL fronts now.

I've been tremendously busy so I've had time only to give a real preliminary listen. I cut to the chase this evening and put in Master and Commander ! :D Well if you would like to know what it feels like to be standing on the deck of a tall ship during a cannon battle you should stop by. :eek: I certainly am getting a whole new level of tactile effects and just raw power. It seems to be very very clean and it is just so much fun to sit there getting crystal clear dialog as my seat, pants and hair are shaking.

At this point I'm not sure if I should congratulate myself on my decision or Mark for his engineering and passion.

I will post more after a more in depth run tomorrow evening.

Art

Hello Art,

Thank you for the opportunity to turn 4 SubMersive's and the XL's loose in a such a great setting and supporting such a great picture. :)

While the results were as I had intended with the design of the products, actually putting it to use and confirming it really delivers the intended experience is always gratifying. As I hinted at in an earlier post, the very low frequency extension of the system extends to around 10Hz as measured at the listening position, and we should remember that as we get this low in frequency, even 5Hz makes for a significant fraction of an octave.

I'll post up measured responses in-room from both WarrenBuffet's and Art's systems some time today.

Best Regards,

[Mark Seaton]

Art,

Four Submersive subs! Very impressive sub bass you must have there.

And what is a Seaton XL ? If I may ask.

Hi 'EAR,

Art's system is the first install of some prototype speakers I will be offering regularly early next year. "XL" stands for eXtreme Loudspeaker. As you can see in the picture Art posted, they are not small speakers, and are intended as front LCR channels to be used with powerful subwoofers. To put some dimensions to what you see, they are 36.5" tall, 15" wide, and 12" deep. The drivers you see are a 6.5" SEAS coax, with a pair of high excursion, 12" sealed woofers above and below. The speaker only goes down to about 55-60Hz, but is quite efficient and powerful in doing so. The XL is also internally bi-amped with an ICE Power amplifier delivering 1000W to the pair of woofers and 500W to the 6.5" coaxial driver, with on-board DSP to handle crossover duties. While of course tenative and subject to change, I expect to sell them for $2500 each.

Here's another picture I took when we had the screen off, obviously before the SubMersives had been installed:
http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/XL-Sonneborn-no-screen.jpg

[MIkeDuke]

WOW.
Man I wish I had a bigger room :(. Art that is one nice theater you got there. 4 submersives. Man that must be sweet. Congrats on having a major drool worthy system.

[Randybes]

Hi 'EAR,

Art's system is the first install of some prototype speakers I will be offering regularly early next year. "XL" stands for eXtreme Loudspeaker. As you can see in the picture Art posted, they are not small speakers, and are intended as front LCR channels to be used with powerful subwoofers. To put some dimensions to what you see, they are 36.5" tall, 15" wide, and 12" deep. The drivers you see are a 6.5" SEAS coax, with a pair of high excursion, 12" sealed woofers above and below. The speaker only goes down to about 55-60Hz, but is quite efficient and powerful in doing so. The XL is also internally bi-amped with an ICE Power amplifier delivering 1000W to the pair of woofers and 500W to the 6.5" coaxial driver, with on-board DSP to handle crossover duties. While of course tenative and subject to change, I expect to sell them for $2500 each.

Here's another picture I took when we had the screen off, obviously before the SubMersives had been installed:
http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/XL-Sonneborn-no-screen.jpgVery cool Mark!!

[Ettepet]

WOW.
Man I wish I had a bigger room :(. Art that is one nice theater you got there. 4 submersives. Man that must be sweet. Congrats on having a major drool worthy system.
Maybe it is time for Art to think about adding seat protection for people who get too scared.. :eek: :cool:

[Richard Mayer]

So let me get this straight Art...

Three XLs 1500W each
Four Submersives 1000W each
--------------------------------
8500W :eek:

I think Ettepet's suggestion is not overrated at all.

[Mark Seaton]

Now you see what had me so busy last week with both WarrenBuffet's and Art's subwoofers to deliver and install. I've also been wrestling with some laptop issues and I hadn't had a chance to post measurements taken in WarrenBuffet's system. Here is a before and after EQ measurement where we used the Behringer DEQ2496 that was already in the system. I did some further shaping of the response while listening, as we really didn't need the small ~4dB elevation in the 25Hz range, so the response ended with should have the low end pulled down a couple dB further. Also note this was without the main speakers playing, as we adjusted the system so the recession at 70Hz was filled in by the Rocket RS-1000s and RSC-200. Remember this room is open to the rest of the 1st floor for 2/3rds of what would be the front left wall.

Dual SubMersives in-room, before/after EQ (http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/Grew-SM1-response.jpg)

In checking out what happens as the level is incremented higher, here is what was observed:

Dual SubMersives in-room, increasing output (http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/Grew-hi-output.jpg)

[---k---]

Mark,
Thanks for your earlier reply. I'm just shocked at how much room gain you are getting. I mean, I know it is there from my own experance with your sub. I was just expecting to see more eq. (Continues to make me wonder about what room gain does to those ported subs that are flat to 20hz, but that is another thread).

So mark, when you say you are adjusting the eq to fix room problems, are you doing it with an outboard EQ, like the QSC or are you just adjusting the internal DSP? Also, did your sub end up with two eq modes?

[MIkeDuke]

I think all I can manage at this time is a simple wow

[---k---]

Art,

I want to thank you again for hosting the GTG this summer, but I have to admit when I heard it, I knew you would be upgrading to Mark's subs. I think Kevin, Mark, and probably a few others knew it too. :D

I really think you made the right decision. I bet it is very very very impressive - even more so than it already was. You should have Jeff theBland over to see if he still thinks you need ButtKickers - I have my doubts.

[Jack Gilvey]

F*ckin' sweet.

[Richard Mayer]

Now you see what had me so busy last week with both WarrenBuffet's and Art's subwoofers to deliver and install. I've also been wrestling with some laptop issues and I hadn't had a chance to post measurements taken in WarrenBuffet's system. Here is a before and after EQ measurement where we used the Behringer DEQ2496 that was already in the system. I did some further shaping of the response while listening, as we really didn't need the small ~4dB elevation in the 25Hz range, so the response ended with should have the low end pulled down a couple dB further. Also note this was without the main speakers playing, as we adjusted the system so the recession at 70Hz was filled in by the Rocket RS-1000s and RSC-200. Remember this room is open to the rest of the 1st floor for 2/3rds of what would be the front left wall.

Dual SubMersives in-room, before/after EQ (http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/Grew-SM1-response.jpg)

In checking out what happens as the level is incremented higher, here is what was observed:

Dual SubMersives in-room, increasing output (http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/Grew-hi-output.jpg)
Mark,

Any chance to see the FR with the mains playing? What kind of crossover was used?

[ssabripo]

well, looks like the cat is out of the bag :p......... congrats Mark! and Art!!

the Submerssives are doing an excellent job, specially for a sealed application. The XL's are what is intriguing me a bit Mark...I've built some large DIY speakers with 12" woofers and Coaxials before (Seas T18REX/XFC (H1353) 7" Coaxial, clear cone)... they were very good in HT apps, albeit not the best, but fell short in 2-channel audio. Obviously you got better results given that you are using them as your LCR offering, so I'm curious how did you get the imaging and soundstaging issues fixed from these Coaxials in the XL :confused:

very cool stuff man.... ;)

[SteveCallas]

I'm just shocked at how much room gain you are getting

http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/SubMersive_1m_response.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/Grew-SM1-response.jpg


I'm seeing ~12db gain at 10hz. That doesn't seem to be anything crazy. It's twice as powerful at 29.5hz as it is at 10hz in Warren's room.

[Mark Seaton]

Have a busy day here, but I did want to post the response we arrived at in Art's system. Art did agree to upgrade his Rane PE-17 to the QSC DSP-30, which gives me 2 outputs and a lot more flexibility. Dennis Erskine designed into Art's room 3 Bronze in-wall subwoofers to the side columns and rear wall for the purpose of helping with modal issues in the bass. In the configuration prior to the SubMersives being added, these 3 10" sealed subs were used to augment the 70-120Hz range of the surround channels. With the flexibility of the DSP-30, I put these to use in helping to smooth out and fill in a recession due to front wall placement in the 50-70Hz range. In the DSP-30 the Triad subs are high passed at 45Hz and were delayed for best integration. This smoothed the response at various seats and slightly reduced the amount of EQ needed in this upper range. The subwoofers are overlapping in this range, so the SubMersives are still providing the majority of the output. The the crossover in the pre-processor is now set to 80Hz, where the effective crossover is in the 70-75Hz range.

The response you see below is the combined result of the center channel and all subwoofers. I did some final tweaks to the response later at night, so these measurements were at a lower level, but noise and level are not a problem in the measurement. I did take some sweeps similar to what I posted above for WarrenBuffet's system which showed more than 114dB @ 16Hz and more than 120dB above 23Hz at Art's main listening position. The output at 10Hz is pretty close to the 110dB I had expected at the listening position. What was quite interesting is that I did not need to do any EQ to get the extension below 20Hz. In fact, I slightly tapered it down as you can see. Without any EQ, the response at 13Hz was 1dB lower than 25Hz, with about a 7-8dB modal peak near 40Hz.

Here ya go:
Art Sonneborn's listening position center+subs. (http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/Art_final_response.jpg)

[MIkeDuke]

"I did take some sweeps similar to what I posted above for WarrenBuffet's system which showed more than 114dB @ 16Hz and more than 120dB above 23Hz at Art's main listening position. The output at 10Hz is pretty close to the 110dB I had expected at the listening position."
Again, Wow Wow Wow. I am not used to seeing these numbers. I can imagine with 4 of them
distortion is basically not even a consideration?

[TheEAR]

A big thanks to Art and Mike,

Thanks for posting the pics and for the info.

Now I am salivating,the idea of these amplified mains intrigues me to say the least.$2500 per speaker...amplified. Very interesting

I may have to change some plans now ;)

[Art Sonneborn]

Well I ran through some more great bass tonight. The machine coming out of the ground in War of the Worlds was first up. Again tremendous performance and as I stated before the expectation that the bass would overpower and turn the dialog into some unintelligble muck never happened,in fact, everything is much more defined than ever !!!

For the first time I feel like my theater is a high performance sports car and it is just loafing down the road with power and handling ability to spare...lots ! :)

Art

[vitod]

So, overall do you like these better than the SVS's?

[Mark Seaton]

well, looks like the cat is out of the bag :p......... congrats Mark! and Art!!

the Submerssives are doing an excellent job, specially for a sealed application. The XL's are what is intriguing me a bit Mark...I've built some large DIY speakers with 12" woofers and Coaxials before (Seas T18REX/XFC (H1353) 7" Coaxial, clear cone)... they were very good in HT apps, albeit not the best, but fell short in 2-channel audio. Obviously you got better results given that you are using them as your LCR offering, so I'm curious how did you get the imaging and soundstaging issues fixed from these Coaxials in the XL :confused:

very cool stuff man.... ;)

Thanks Sherv',

I have always found a well executed coaxial driver to do certain things better than any set of acoustically far appart drivers. Of course there are hurdles to overcome with every design, as well as differing strengths. Without a lot of attention with measurement and design tools, it would be an uphill battle, as there are a variety of complications. The crossover design is different than how I have seen others implement this coax, which is quite similar to the one you experimented with, and results will vary tremendously with the choices made in both the bass to mid and mid to tweeter crossover and overall response shape and trends. One of the strengths of the XL is the lack of sudden changes in response when moving off axis. While no speaker is perfect in this regard, the goal is to have sounds and dialog sound very similar if not the same across multiple seats. Art's theater is a good example where the presentation is quite similar seat to seat, with most of the variation occuring in the lower octaves where expected modes and boundary interaction dominate. The enclosure, mounting, and nearby materials can also notably impact the sound and such details have been given some attention in the materials and construction.

In the end it really is all about careful execution while using appropriately chosen components.

[Mark Seaton]

"I did take some sweeps similar to what I posted above for WarrenBuffet's system which showed more than 114dB @ 16Hz and more than 120dB above 23Hz at Art's main listening position. The output at 10Hz is pretty close to the 110dB I had expected at the listening position."
Again, Wow Wow Wow. I am not used to seeing these numbers. I can imagine with 4 of them
distortion is basically not even a consideration?

I would never say that distortion is not a consideration, as you can push ANY system towards it's limits. In the case of Art's setup with the 4 SubMersives, it is rather unlikely that operating levels will push into regions of increasing distortion for more than a brief moment of big peaks, and the SubMersive's dynamic linearity mean that there will be almost no compression observed outside of a *highly* spirited demonstration.

[MIkeDuke]

Thanks Mark. "Highly" spirted. I like that. The only time I have experienced what I would call "spirited" playback was with the Sub Utopia Be. They had to turn it down because it was shaking the building. No joke. That is my main frame of reference. All other systems that I have heard were "weak" compared with that so I really have a limited frame of reference I guess. I am not sure what to expect with that kind of output possibility in my room. I guess I have never really heard(felt) bass like that. Like I said, the Utopia is the closest I ever got to that kind of level.
Again Art, glad to hear that it is living up to or exceeding your expectations.

[MIkeDuke]

Well . Again tremendous performance and as I stated before the expectation that the bass would overpower and turn the dialog into some unintelligble muck never happened,in fact, everything is much more defined than ever !!!
Art
I have to admit, I was thinking the same thing. I was wondering if that would happen. I mean, can you be WOWED and listen at sane levels. I can be honest. I a man :D. I am afraid of the idea of 120+ peaks in my room. I am afraid that it would be too loud to be enjoyable. That does not mean that I am not going to do it. It is just something that I have thought about. When I heard the Utopia, I was scared of it's output. I really was. I only want to be a little scared with this ;).
One thing I forgot to mention, I sit about 6in from where the sub is :eek: :eek:

[ssabripo]

Thanks Sherv',

I have always found a well executed coaxial driver to do certain things better than any set of acoustically far appart drivers. Of course there are hurdles to overcome with every design, as well as differing strengths. Without a lot of attention with measurement and design tools, it would be an uphill battle, as there are a variety of complications. The crossover design is different than how I have seen others implement this coax, which is quite similar to the one you experimented with, and results will vary tremendously with the choices made in both the bass to mid and mid to tweeter crossover and overall response shape and trends. One of the strengths of the XL is the lack of sudden changes in response when moving off axis. While no speaker is perfect in this regard, the goal is to have sounds and dialog sound very similar if not the same across multiple seats. Art's theater is a good example where the presentation is quite similar seat to seat, with most of the variation occuring in the lower octaves where expected modes and boundary interaction dominate. The enclosure, mounting, and nearby materials can also notably impact the sound and such details have been given some attention in the materials and construction.

In the end it really is all about careful execution while using appropriately chosen components.
cool Mark....

yeah, I played and played with the XO for a while, had some help from some XO gurus over at DIYaudio, and bottom line is, I just could not get the Coaxial to merge the way I wanted with the 12" woofers. Simply swapped out the coax for a pair of excel separates, and viola!.....with a quick fix to the XO, the thing came alive! :eek: .....Probably my inexperience, but the coax just did not cut the mustard. But I'm excited you got that thing to work in the XL....wish I could hear it! I know it probably is a beast :)

keep'm coming fellas ;)

[Art Sonneborn]

WOW.
Man I wish I had a bigger room :(. Art that is one nice theater you got there. 4 submersives. Man that must be sweet. Congrats on having a major drool worthy system.

Mike,
I'm sorry I missed this , thanks very much ! Of course there is one thing I'm learning and I can analogize to women on this. What you have looks pretty until you see something prettier. :D

Art

[MIkeDuke]

Art, trust me.
When all you have is room that totals just about 1000cf, you realize that you NEED a bigger room :D .
P.S I like your Sig as I have had quite a few challenges in my life and it has made me what I am today :) .

[Mark Seaton]

cool Mark....

yeah, I played and played with the XO for a while, had some help from some XO gurus over at DIYaudio, and bottom line is, I just could not get the Coaxial to merge the way I wanted with the 12" woofers. Simply swapped out the coax for a pair of excel separates, and viola!.....with a quick fix to the XO, the thing came alive! :eek: .....Probably my inexperience, but the coax just did not cut the mustard. But I'm excited you got that thing to work in the XL....wish I could hear it! I know it probably is a beast :)

keep'm coming fellas ;)

Hi Sherv,

The way the midrange cone essentially provides a shallow horn for the tweeter adds a few complicating factors to be considered in the crossover, and a passive crossover for the high pass on the 6.5" cone to the woofers is not a simple task. The midrange chamber is heavily damped and quite small on the XL, which is what is needed for my particular design choices for the crossover to make for a smooth on and off axis transition.

I did a good bit of listening at my place before installing them, as well as when I did a crossover update about a month ago. The the integration I can achieve with a coax still lends to transient response in a way that I rarely hear with multi-element systems. It really does help when the drivers are appropriately close enough for seamless integration.

[Mark Seaton]

I have to admit, I was thinking the same thing. I was wondering if that would happen. I mean, can you be WOWED and listen at sane levels. I can be honest. I a man :D. I am afraid of the idea of 120+ peaks in my room. I am afraid that it would be too loud to be enjoyable. That does not mean that I am not going to do it. It is just something that I have thought about. When I heard the Utopia, I was scared of it's output. I really was. I only want to be a little scared with this ;).
One thing I forgot to mention, I sit about 6in from where the sub is :eek: :eek:

As I know WarrenBuffet can attest, the SubMersive can really startle you when the system is set up well. While 120dB may be easily achievable while testing in your room. You still hold the volume control, and since the subwoofer's response doesn't really change through your operating range, the effect maintains very well even at lower listening levels. The 120dB capability really comes into play with the eye-popping dynamics and is more commonly used for such dynamics. Most systems squash these peaks and the listener doesn't often know without a point of comparison.

When working on Art's system on Sunday, I did a little more listening after we could get loud as Art's kids were all sleeping, and I was very happy to confirm that the effect of the subwoofers was still subtly noticable in the foundation they provided for the sounds, even at low levels.

[MIkeDuke]

Thanks Mark. I don't want to seem like a woosie :p. I guess it's just a fear of the unkown. As long as I don't need to be blasting away at 120db to really enjoy the sub, I will be happy. And I have no doubt that you will be able to setup my system as well so that wont happen. I guess my ultimate fear is that because my room is so small, that in order to get nice usable dialogue levels, when used with this sub, that the overall level will be to high. If that makes sense.

[DrewB]

Art has time for kids? :D :eek:

[kgveteran]

Glad you guys finally stepped up to my league :D :D :D :D


In the past sealed systems were limited to medium sized rooms down to small rooms.Way to go! Marks mains only reiterate the need for mains to continue the output from the processors XO on up.Having super output subs can only give you half the show. What a setup Art :) .Also the need for system headroom.I gotta listen to "Master and commander" again!


Sitting back and watching a movie without the need to turn it down is the best.I never knew how distracted I use to be with the see-saw volume game during movies.

It's just a matter of time that mark does a (4) submersive and seven mains for a killer 7.1 setup.Just give it time. :)

[TheEAR]

I will be lurking,waiting for the Submersive in GLOSS BLACK

The finish has match my Fathom and upcomoing GOTHAM subs :)

[funlvr1965]

I will be lurking,waiting for the Submersive in GLOSS BLACK

The finish has match my Fathom and upcomoing GOTHAM subs :)


I'll pass on your request when I see Mark in a few hours :D

[Stereodude]

I will be lurking,waiting for the Submersive in GLOSS BLACK
I believe Mark Schifter's cabinet making company will be making premium finish cabinets for the Submersive-1. Mark Seaton can probably enlighten you as to what finishes will be offered.

[TheEAR]

Thanks,I an seriously looking forward to these Submersive subs. :D

[subbass]

Hi,

Am new here........
Where can I get more technical info on this Seaton Sound sub from technical stuff up to dimensions. Does it really outpower many subs like SVS Plus 2 ?

Can it be ordered by people living in Europe ?

[Ettepet]

Welcome to the forum, subbass. :)

Where can I get more technical info on this Seaton Sound sub from technical stuff up to dimensions.
Earlier (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9036320&&#post9036320) in this topic you can find a lot of info. More can be found by looking up Seatons recent replies in this forum. ;)

Does it really outpower many subs like SVS Plus 2 ?
Several of the SubMersive owners had SVS subs in the past, all sounded very positive about the upgrade. CraigSub compared the Plus/2 with a JL Audio Fathom 113 here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8762653&&#post8762653), which should prove similar in performance to Seatons sub. More comparisons, graphs and such will follow.

Can it be ordered by people living in Europe ?
I'm in the process of ordering two. So, yes.

[subbass]

Mr. Mark Seaton,

Am highly interested in this submersive sub.

Please get back to me :) , please.......... :o

Regards from Germany............

[Mark Seaton]

Hi Guys,

Thank you again for all of the interest and questions. This last week was quite busy with a G2G involving some of the other subwoofer designs I have been working on for AV123. I've been catching up and should be able to respond to messages over the next day or two. I am working on the content for the website, so information will be easier to come by very soon.

I will be lurking,waiting for the Submersive in GLOSS BLACK

The finish has match my Fathom and upcomoing GOTHAM subs :)

I am still working on premium finishes, so they have not yet been finalized. I will likely do limited production of piano black, and will have a few other veneered finishes. I don't expect to have these available before February.

[Art Sonneborn]

Well I decided last night while I had Clarence here after the Chicago Blendzilla meet and when my daughter had a new boyfriend over to see my theater to really open things up.

Having the power to do what I did last night was quite a feeling literally. The re-entry scene in Serenity was the single most impressive display of audio and video I've experienced and then I kept hearing great things from those in attendence. In that scene there are tons of different things going on at once. The music, turbulence parts of the ship shearing off just awesome. No question in my mind that this is simply a function of the mains and subs having the ability to extract accurately and powerfully what that soundtrack has to offer. Angela said" Oh my God everything is shaking!" This is coming from a lady who has experienced that scene 10 times before. :D

Art

[MIkeDuke]

Thanks for the update Art. It seems like they can really take care of business. I still can not imagine what 4 would sound like. But maybe I can get a feelling when I get one in my room.

[funlvr1965]

as someone who has one in his room, I can tell you that the submersive sub is fantastic!

[MIkeDuke]

But is your room 1000cf :eek:
I am sure it is fantastic in your room. I just took a look at your gallery. Very nice.

[sandbagger]

So Art

Tell us what you really think :D

I might have to go home after work and dig that disk out ... that and WOW I havent played on the new submersive

[Richard Mayer]

as someone who has one in his room, I can tell you that the submersive sub is fantastic!
Didn't you also win the AV123's BMF subwoofer? Are you going to keep both of them? :D :eek:

[Mark Seaton]

Didn't you also win the AV123's BMF subwoofer? Are you going to keep both of them? :D :eek:

Such a terrible decision for an enthusiast to have to make! :rolleyes:

[funlvr1965]

Didn't you also win the AV123's BMF subwoofer? Are you going to keep both of them? :D :eek:


DAMN!! cats out of the bag!! :eek: yes I did win the BMF and I also do have Mark's new submersive which he is setting up for me this weekend, I dont kow how Im going to fit and integrate the bmf into my theater but im sure Mark may have a few ideas :D

[Art Sonneborn]

So Art

Tell us what you really think :D

I might have to go home after work and dig that disk out ... that and WOW I havent played on the new submersive


Kevin,
It is a lot of fun and a good move. OK, off to add another layer of weather stripping to the doors ! :D

Art

[MIkeDuke]

DAMN!! cats out of the bag!! :eek: yes I did win the BMF and I also do have Mark's new submersive which he is setting up for me this weekend, I dont kow how Im going to fit and integrate the bmf into my theater but im sure Mark may have a few ideas :D
A BMF AND a SubMersive in the same room. WOW :eek: . That should be pretty intense if it can all be integrated nicely

[funlvr1965]

well hopefully mark will be able to work something out, but its a really cool thing to have both representations of marks vision, Im not sure when I will take delivery of the sub yet but just knowing its coming is pretty cool

[TJEli]

Are there ant real pics of the BMF out yet?

-Eli

[jhan1000]

Are there ant real pics of the BMF out yet?

-Eli

I haven't seen the any pictures for the final version, but pictures of the cabinet have been released.

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17405

[MIkeDuke]

Funlvr, truthfully what I would do is try to have Mark set them up so that you can use them indepently in the same system. For ex. on monday you decide to use the BMF. So just fire up the system and turn that on and keep the Submersive off. But on Tues, you NEED to use the 'Mersive. So on that goes and the BMF will lay dormant. That way you have the choice of both "flavors" in your system. I would love to try and do that some day.

[funlvr1965]

GREAT IDEA!! Mark are ya listening? :D

[jmcomp124]

About 2 years ago, when the Danley DTS-20 Tower of Power was being designed, I started dreaming about that sub especially after Mark got me thinking about it.

The thread One sub to rule them all (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=529781) had some very interesting information from Mark. In that thread in post #32 you mentioned the following..

"The more conventional subwoofer is of my own design, with the inexcapable influence of having worked closely with Tom Danley for more than 3 years. For discussion purposes, let's call this product the BM-215. The gross dimensions will be 19" x 29" x 24" tall. As you have likely guessed, it will have a pair of 15" drivers on opposing 19" wide sides. Yes, the configuration will be similar to say a larger module from the Martin Logan Statement or the Krell MRS. The enclosure will be heavily braced with the 2.25" thick driver baffles. Yes, it will be heavy. "


Mark,
1 . Is the Submersive1 = the BM-215?

2. After all that was said about the DTS-20, I would like in your own words what you think of that subwoofer now? Does it really live up to all that was expected from it? Do you still support that product ?

3. How does the submersive1, stack up to the DTS-20?

It feels like I am almost lagging behind in a way that I go for a subwoofer that you once worked on and no longer by the time I want to own one. I first wanted a Contrabass and then you left Servodrive. I then wanted a DTS-20, and then you are no longer with Danley Sound. A year from now I may want 2 Submersive1s and I wonder where you will be then :).

For readers here, just a little history..

Sub $5K subwoofers - Rank the best out there in your order of preference (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=526313&pagenumber=1)
Contrabass (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=529117)

I don't blame you Mark, people always go to greener pastures. I think I miss all the excellent knowledge that you enlighten people with especially on products that they are interested in. In a way, I am bummed that you are no longer with Danley Sound. I have ordered a DTS-20, so enlighten me now and tell us, is this product all that you thought it would be.
Thanks,
-Jai

[Mark Seaton]

About 2 years ago, when the Danley DTS-20 Tower of Power was being designed, I started dreaming about that sub especially after Mark got me thinking about it.

Hi Jai, It has been a long time since that discussion. Good to see you still around and chasing bigger and deeper bass.


The thread One sub to rule them all (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=529781) had some very interesting information from Mark. In that thread in post #32 you mentioned the following..

"The more conventional subwoofer is of my own design, with the inexcapable influence of having worked closely with Tom Danley for more than 3 years. For discussion purposes, let's call this product the BM-215. The gross dimensions will be 19" x 29" x 24" tall. As you have likely guessed, it will have a pair of 15" drivers on opposing 19" wide sides. Yes, the configuration will be similar to say a larger module from the Martin Logan Statement or the Krell MRS. The enclosure will be heavily braced with the 2.25" thick driver baffles. Yes, it will be heavy. "


Mark,
1 . Is the Submersive1 = the BM-215?


No, the sub referred to above got tabled for now for a variety of reasons. It would have been about $3,000 retail. The SubMersive is a more compact and cost effective design with some differences in strengths. It doesn't have quite the low frequency output that something larger and more expensive might have had, but the size better allows the use of multiples, and the performance return for additional money spent starts coming down quickly.


2. After all that was said about the DTS-20, I would like in your own words what you think of that subwoofer now? Does it really live up to all that was expected from it? Do you still support that product ?

It's an amazing performer and example of a great design concept from Tom Danley. Tom and I are still friends, and I have learned a LOT from him in the time we've known eachother. I have only heard the DTS-20 on two occasions. The first being an early production unit at a trade show, and the second being a wild outdoor home theater application where 4 were used to amazing effect outdoors. Below 25Hz down to their useful limit, the DTS-20 is certainly one of the most powerful single box subwoofers currently available. Any of the tapped horn examples I have heard have been overall very clean and dynamic, with immensely better sound quality than any other pro-sound subwoofer I have heard. I have not played with the box in detail enough to comment any further than that.


3. How does the submersive1, stack up to the DTS-20?


As is rather obvious, they are entirely different animals. The much more compact, and less expensive SubMersive is a sealed box and is very much designed with common home theater spaces and useage in mind. As you've seen, it has been measured in multiple and different types of spaces and usually provides a beneficial addition of very low frequency content into the 8-12Hz range. The size and pricing manageable enough to make the use of multiples practical and justifiable. Adding more subwoofers with EQ handy can allow you more and more headroom to work with down low, while also enabling placement choices that can help deal with modal issues. While obviously the sealed design and small enclosure of the SubMersive doesn't allow the same maximum levels around 20Hz, the difference isn't that big across the range, where above 35Hz and past 100Hz, the SubMersive can be swept at 120-124dB @ 1m.

Again, they are very different products, and I would say there are plenty of applications where one will be an obvious choice over the other based on space available, budget, room size and performance expectations. I can say that the depth of extension and dynamic linearity of the SubMersive is something I have only experienced with sealed or IB systems thus far.


It feels like I am almost lagging behind in a way that I go for a subwoofer that you once worked on and no longer by the time I want to own one. I first wanted a Contrabass and then you left Servodrive. I then wanted a DTS-20, and then you are no longer with Danley Sound. A year from now I may want 2 Submersive1s and I wonder where you will be then :).

-Jai

I had long wanted to have entire control of the final product delivered, which is why I decided my own venture was the right path. It has taken a while and I've taken my lumps, but am now able to pursue many things I have long felt worth pursuing. I have been quite inspired in the process of re-confirming how valuable and desireable VLF extension can be through my experience with Bruce Thigpen's TRW-17 as well as the results I continue to see with my SubMersives, as this is really an evolution from what we first achieved in thebland's system. I have a few ideas that need to be tested next year, but I can assure you I'm not going to just sit back on 1 or 2 sealed subwoofer designs. The SubMersive is just one of many holes I felt needed filling in the market.

Thanks for the kind words, and best regards.

[jmcomp124]

Mark,
Once again, you have responded with such class proving to be a true gentleman.
Thank you so much for patiently answering word for word all my questions.
I am really happy that you still feel the same way about the DTS-20 and it gives me assurance.
Know that I will be lurking around and someday, I want to buy a product from you, your own stuff.
Keep up the good work. We here are fortunate to have you around.
Take care,
-Jai

[funlvr1965]

Its now 11:45pm on a sunday night, Mark seaton arrived here early today and spent all day leaving approximately 10pm, the reason for his visit was to calibrate and integrate the submersive sub into my m&k setup, when I took delivery of the submersive some time ago I was using the velodyne sms-1 which Mark indicated to me was a good EQ however in order to extract the most performance from his sub I should invest in a pro EQ such as the QSC DSP-30, I have to say it was quite an exciting weekend I just received a new Marantz VP11-S1 1080P projector and the very next day Mark Seaton shows up to do a full audio calibration, it just doesnt get any better than this for us hometheater fanatics. While the velodyne sms-1 was still installed I thought I did a pretty decent job of dialing a new program after deleting the old program which was for my two m&k mx-5000 subs which I sold to get the Submersive, Mark installed the QSC eq and completely transformed that audio in the theater, carefully calibrating the sub and all the mains and surrounds, he is dedicated to extracting every last ounce of performance from a room and all the equipment in it, the result was beyond words, I have never heard such clarity from my mains and slam from any subwoofer to date and im no newbie to homethear and ive had other big name subs in the past but nothing compares to how that submersive hit me in the gut and chest area, simply amazing, we watched the dvd "open range" the gunfight towards the end of the movie was simply breathtaking, gunshots sounded like cannonballs going right through you, if my simple review sounds over the top thats because the level of performance was OVER THE TOP. Master and commander literally tore my room in half and twisted our insides and for the first time in my own I wondered if my room would suffer structural damage from this one subwoofer. Mark and Jen if youre listening my wife and our friends truly enjoyed your company and your genious continues to inspire many of us who seek something closer to perfection that we now have, for me its like we have a whole new theater. Mark you continue to be a class act and we all wish you all the best :)

[MIkeDuke]

WOW funlvr. That sounds like it was a great weekend. Your experience now has me very very excited on what to expect with my own installation. It will be here before you know it :). I am glad that all of the experiences have been consistent. I am excited to say the least. It is pretty amazing that a proper calibration can have that kind of effect. Congrats and enjoy your new sub.

[funlvr1965]

Mike, before I got my sub installed I too listened to others rave about Seatons sub and his setup techniques, although like you I was excited with anticipation, nothing could prepare me for the transformation that took place in my room, to give you an example., in the final stages of the calibration Mark conducted a listening test and calibration "by ear" sitting in my main seating position he was able to determine by playing test tones across the front that there was a slight reflection on the left and right wall, my room is treated however I guess I missed those two spots, I had an extra 2 foot x 4 foot high frequency absorber which he had me lean against the wall in the spot where he heard the reflection and instantly a smile came over his face and he verified the reflection on that side of the room that kept the mains from panning coherently was gone, now before he found this I thought up to that point was already a hundred percent better than what I had, after placing the trap against the wall he had me sit in the seat and played the tones again and "VOILA" ,butter smooth and coherent across the front, the the theater now has such snap and accuracy that gunshots and cannon shots if youre not ready for them will make you jump out of your seat, my wife indicated to me that her and our friends upstairs jumped with a bit of fright after hearing the first gunshots and cannonshots from the movie open range and then master and commander and she said the house was completely shaking but even more important than that was that she said that every gunshot sounded clean and clear and that was what startled them, a word to the wise, room treatmements make a big improvemt and im glad I invested in high frequency absorbers and bass traps, now what to do with that BMF that I won over at AV123forum ( Thanks Mark Schifter) :D

[MIkeDuke]

It must be tough having a SubMersive AND a BMF :cool:. Yea, I can imagine it would be hard to try and manage both of them. We should all feel your pain :D. But thanks for the posting on the calibration. I just used the C2's room calibration and that was it. As I said, my room is small and I don't have any treatments. I just never thought it was important for a room my size. I think Mark is wondering what is going to happen in my small room. I really can't wait now.

[funlvr1965]

roomtreatments are a must for any room, youre room is what shapes your sound and you can help steer your sound by tuning and managing reflections with basstraps,diffusion etc, the BMF isnt built yet so maybe March or so, If cost is a problem for your room treatments there are plenty of diy sites that you can visit and see how you can build them, you can always pm me for more info or talk about Marks process in general.

[MIkeDuke]

Cost is not the issue. I just never thought about it. I do not know how to determine what I need. Maybe when Mark comes he can see what I need. Then I can go from there.

[funlvr1965]

you can get a jump on that since if you have some treatments up when he gets there you will hear a more immediate response otherwise he will tune the room the best he can and recommend some treatments but you wont get the benefit of hearing it before he leaves, finding first reflections is not hard and bass traps traditionally go in each corner you would be doing yourself a huge favor if you look at some of the diy sites and sites that talk about how to find first reflections, the only tool I used was my wife and a mirror lol

[rockemsockem]

Ethan Winer @ realtraps.com can be a very good resource. His website has lots of beginner acoustics info, and he has been more than willing to answer any questions that you have. Plus, I have never heard a bad thing about their products.

Here are a couple of links that cover room acoustics:

Early Reflections
Kudos to my man COF at the S&V forum, don't know what my system would sound like without him :-)
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=28194
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=38945

Bass Traps
http://www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html

I hope this helps.

[MIkeDuke]

Because I am lazy :p, can you PM me some more info and some sites that I can use to find out more info? Only so we can keep this thread on track.
Thanks
edit:
I see that some one did that as I was typing.

[kgveteran]

Mark S.

Would it be too much to ask that you put together a book on system setup. I'm sure you have trade secrets, but give it some thought.


KG

[funlvr1965]

rockemsockem thanks for coming to the rescue with those useful links im sure they would be very helpful for MIKEDUKE, I have the basstraps from realtraps.com and they are fantastic

[MIkeDuke]

Thanks. I will check them out.

[Mark Seaton]

Mark S.

Would it be too much to ask that you put together a book on system setup. I'm sure you have trade secrets, but give it some thought.


KG

Hi KG,

I've posted most all of what I do here on AVS at various times and in peices. I intend to put together a more complete outline of the process and important details to examine over time and keep this on my own website. There is really only one or two details that I can do with my TEF25 that are not as easy to do with other measurement systems, and there are still ways to get good results in these specific areas. Most of the adjustments are available to anyone with the Gold-Line 5.1 Audio Toolkit DVD and SPL and frequency response measurement capability.

The disk has test tones that while intended for other uses originally, I use to do listening validation of what has been measured. The part that everyone forgets is that exact level measurements with band-limited noise test signals are only exact when the speakers deliver identical frequency responses to the listener. There are times when you have to slightly deviate from a number reading or at least hunt down the reason for a difference that doesn't make sense. In Wayne's system, this was one of the most obvious flags where you have identical L, R & C speakers at the same distance yet you have different level settings for L & R speakers. Through listening to the noise from each and some phantom image test signals you can make determinations of the best compromise.

Beyond that, the combined subwoofer and main speaker response above 50Hz is usually given too little attention, as well as how the sub and center channel (and then L/R) are interacting. These problems don't require advanced acoustics knowledge or training to improve or adjust.

[Art Sonneborn]

I think that the group at the Microsoft/HDDVD promotions group get together at my place on Saturday had their butts kicked with the four Submersives( in a good way).

Hint..................get Tokyo Drift HDDVD for a new sub demo ! :eek: :eek: :D

http://alhull.com/arthd/arthddvdgtg032.jpg




Art

[Mark Seaton]

WOW funlvr. That sounds like it was a great weekend. Your experience now has me very very excited on what to expect with my own installation. It will be here before you know it :). I am glad that all of the experiences have been consistent.

More than a few people had a chance to experience what Art Sonneborn's system this weekend, and I have to say it even surprised me a bit as to the level of experience delivered. Intense while detailed is a pretty good summary. Maybe some others who were there can comment. :cool:

Edit: I see Art just posted about it as I was typing this.

[vitod]

Art, you have a 4:3 screen?

[Mark Seaton]

Art, you have a 4:3 screen?

I think that's just the angle and probably a horizontally sqawshed pic by the forum or for posting. The screen is ~12' wide. :)
You can see more pics of Art's theater as is linked in his signature:
www.artsonneborn.com

[cschang]

Those Microsoft guys get around. Some of the us LA area AVSers met them out here last month.

[kgveteran]

Hi KG,

I've posted most all of what I do here on AVS at various times and in peices. I intend to put together a more complete outline of the process and important details to examine over time and keep this on my own website. There is really only one or two details that I can do with my TEF25 that are not as easy to do with other measurement systems, and there are still ways to get good results in these specific areas. Most of the adjustments are available to anyone with the Gold-Line 5.1 Audio Toolkit DVD and SPL and frequency response measurement capability.

The disk has test tones that while intended for other uses originally, I use to do listening validation of what has been measured. The part that everyone forgets is that exact level measurements with band-limited noise test signals are only exact when the speakers deliver identical frequency responses to the listener. There are times when you have to slightly deviate from a number reading or at least hunt down the reason for a difference that doesn't make sense. In Wayne's system, this was one of the most obvious flags where you have identical L, R & C speakers at the same distance yet you have different level settings for L & R speakers. Through listening to the noise from each and some phantom image test signals you can make determinations of the best compromise.

Beyond that, the combined subwoofer and main speaker response above 50Hz is usually given too little attention, as well as how the sub and center channel (and then L/R) are interacting. These problems don't require advanced acoustics knowledge or training to improve or adjust.


Mark,
Thanx.I've done most of my setup with TRuRta. I was just curious about your methodology. You're a class act Mr. Seaton.


KG

[vitod]

I think that's just the angle and probably a horizontally sqawshed pic by the forum or for posting. The screen is ~12' wide. :)
You can see more pics of Art's theater as is linked in his signature:
www.artsonneborn.com

WOW! Great place Art! And the Usherettes....MAMA MIA!! :D

Mark, your sub website up yet?

[ssabripo]

I give this meeting a 9 out of 10 stars.........the lack of scantly dressed women prevented me from giving this get together a 10 out of 10! :p

[funlvr1965]

I think that the group at the Microsoft/HDDVD promotions group get together at my place on Saturday had their butts kicked with the four Submersives( in a good way).

Hint..................get Tokyo Drift HDDVD for a new sub demo ! :eek: :eek: :D

http://alhull.com/arthd/arthddvdgtg032.jpg




Art


Art I think the submersive club is growing :)

[MKtheater]

Hi Art,
Love your theater. How big is that room? May I ask why 2 G90's? I assume that screen is acoustically transparent, what kind?
Mark,
When do you think those submersives will be available? I am sure you have not heard that before.

[Art Sonneborn]

Hi Art,
Love your theater. How big is that room? May I ask why 2 G90's? I assume that screen is acoustically transparent, what kind?
Mark,
When do you think those submersives will be available? I am sure you have not heard that before.

The room is 20 x28 x9'2"

Two G90s for enough light for 12 fL on that screen size keeping supreme black reproduction and 1080p resolution

The screen is a Stewart microperf

Mark is making Submersives like sausages coming off the line.. :D

[MKtheater]

Since you had the Pb12/plus/2 and now replaced them with the submersives how would to desribe the difference for movies only?

[Art Sonneborn]

Since you had the Pb12/plus/2 and now replaced them with the submersives how