Caveat#1: I've literally JUST implemented an RF lighting protocol, that too zWave which only has 1 transmitter vs RadioRA with RF repeaters. In addition, CQC just released an updated zWave driver 2 days ago.

Caveat#2: I have a 96yr old Craftsman style house, with plaster&lathe everywhere. The house has been extended 3 distinct times by 3 different owners, none of which are me, so I have 3 different inside walls of my house that used to be exterior walls, and feel like they have tons of insulation or wood or other stuff just killing off all wireless signals. RF, 802.11, cellphone, baby monitors, microwaves, you name it.

Caveat#3: I live in Oakland, andhave very polluted airwaves. There's powerlines up/down the street, denser population so tons of competing wifi, cordless phones, baby monitors, etc, from neighbors or whatnot, in concert with all the crap in my house.


Ok, disclaimers aside, I have to admit that now i'm looking forward to a day where I have hardwired control, and it's just as robust as my Elk setup - no questions about whether my lights will turn on, whether the signal will make it there or not. And, honestly, I'm seriously contemplating waiting on spending $12K on HomeWorks parts until I remodel the house, so I can get the Homeworks hardwired switches (@$300/each) vs the HomeWorks RF modules. Perhaps the repeaters would make it "good enough", but perhaps not, why don't I just have an electrician run the dang wire and not worry about it.

Death to more wireless - my house is just overloaded.

Thanks for listening, nothing else to see here.

two great low-cost options

centralite (compatible with elk, I think??): www.centralite.com
onq/legrand: http://www.onqlegrand.com/jahia/Jahia/lang/en/pid/1368

and if you don't have 3-phase, HAI's UPB solution is supposed to be pretty good.

http://www.homeauto.com/Products/HLC/hlc.asp

[i]Caveat#1: I've literally JUST implemented an RF lighting protocol, that too zWave which only has 1 transmitter vs RadioRA with RF repeaters. In addition, CQC just released an updated zWave driver 2 days ago.


IVB,

Zwave (and Zigbee) are "mesh networks" which means every switch receives and then repeats a command till it reaches it's destination . So if you press a switch at one end of the house to turn on a switch at the other end of the house, any switches in between will hand off that command to the next until it reaches that switch at the far end of the house .

Perhaps the repeaters would make it "good enough", but perhaps not...
Go with what you want but as far as the above statement there is no "perhaps" about it (with Homeworks). It will work flawlessly. I'm not sure that wiring an existing home is going to be cheaper than RF once you add in the labor but that would obviously depend on a number of factors.

Well, it was less about cost and more about the confidence that wireless interference wouldn't muck with the signal. My Elk is like a rock, my wireless isn't.

Are the Homeworks RF repeaters hardwired back to the controller? If there's issues, can I simply run 1-2 more repeaters? Although I suppose at some point I should be concerned about the amount of radio waves I subject my wee little ones too.

Correct re: the repeaters, that's sort of the entire idea - you can add repeaters as needed to assure yourself of enough coverage. Trust me, I understand your concerns about wireless. That's why systems such as Lutron are such a breath of fresh air. They work the way wireless should - flawlessly. I'm always a little uncomfotable with "we installed these in such and such a type house all the time" braggart type statements so I say this only as a way of assuring you - we have installed these in very large 10,000 Sq Ft houses with several hundrend switches with 0 problems.

You can hard wire the repeaters if you want to but you do not need to. You need do so only in instances where you cannot place a repeater close enough to anothe repeater (or the processor). An example of that would be if you had a garage that is not connected to the home. You could run a wire to the garage and then connect a repeater in the garage.

I think that the confusion may be that he was more asking are these actually multiple simultaneous transmitters, all sending out the original signal from the original source. Whereas, you are saying that they are actually repeaters. They aren't all sending the signal from the original source, they are just passing it on from other repeaters, right? Or maybe they can be both?

To explain fully:

First you require a Lutron wireless processor for a Homeworks wireless system. The processor has a repeater built in. Each processor can support up to 64 wireless devices (don't quote me on that #) before you need to add an addtional processor (a wireless device can be a light switch and/or keypad).

For each processor you can assign multiple repeaters. There may be a number limit to the number of repeaters per processor, I don't recall, but if there is it has no practical value. You assign your repeaters to a particular processor (if you need more than one processor). Yes, they are true repeaters. So if Repeater A does not communicate with all of the switches you install Repeater B within range of Repeater B (or within range of the processor with built in repeater) and now it will reach the remaining switches.

The range on a repeater is 30' but that number is very misleading. Unlike the absurd wireless ranges often provided by manufacturerers (like an open air rating of 3 miles with a practical range of 300'!) the 30' rating is extremely conservative and should be viewed as a circle extending out in all directions. So you actually have a 60' circle being broadcast out horizontally and vertically. Obviously it does not take too many repeaters to cover the average house.

p.s. You can also mix a wired system with wireless and eliminate the need for a wireless processor altogether, simply hardwiring a repeater to a wired processor. A wired processor would be used ONLY if you were also installing a wired system. In other words, the application might be that you have a new home going up with a completely wired system. Perhaps an existing guest home that you want to add to it. You could run a wire from the hard wired system to the guest home and connect only a repeater in the guest home, saving the expense of having to purchase wireless procesor just for the guest house.

TMI :)?

Very interesting, thanks for that explanation. Trust me, I'm so ignorant there's no such thing as TMI. That education is why I opted to immediately spend $1K in zWave.

Have you noticed a difference in the timelag between
1) Hardwired (either transmit or receive), or
2) Wireless (either transmit or receive)?

I.E., i've noticed with zWave that if someone manually touches a switch, in practicality it takes several seconds for the CPU to realize it. I've been setting up some HA rules around automated lighting, and that's a bit annoying.

Another OT question: Have you noticed a difference in the ramp-up or ramp-down speed of the RF vs hardwired dimmers? My zWave is about a 2s timeframe, and I don't know why, but that's slow enough to bug the crap out of me. We've had "instant" speed via the 40yr old dimmers, so i'm getting hassled by the wife about the new stuff.

It is fast enough that if there is a delay at all I have never noticed. I do not like ramp ups even though they seem to be the rage and when I program a scene I program to go to the level instantly. Even for whole house scenes it is instant. To give an example, I can stand at the main house and look at a separate building, press a scene button that controls the separate building and see every light in the building go on instantly.

p.s. I edited my original post above yours so make sure you caught everything.

Ok, thanks for the info. And yes, did catch your edits.

Not to hijack too much, but since we are discussing multiple lighting systems, what's the recommendation for retrofits as far as aesthetics go? I have a traditionally wired home (I did wire neutral to every switch) with the standard flip style switches. I have combinations of 1, 2, 3 and even 4 gang boxes in rooms, with some 3 ways. Most of the 3 and 4 gangers have at least a fan and a switched outlet control. Most of the lighting system products seem to favor paddle switches, which is okay I suppose, but how do you blend these with existing flip switches without replacing every switch in the home. Also, it seems these systems favor 4 or more keypad style stations instead of installing 4 paddle switches in a 4 gang box, which is fine when planned for, but I don't want to have to rip out 4 gangers and install a single gang box with the requisite cut, patch and paint routine. Any suggestions from the professionals on how this is approached?

Typically you just leave all the switches where they are (replacing them with RF controllable switches) and retrofit in a single gang keypad next to the existing switches (or as part of them if you can change a 3 gang to a 4 gang for instance). As far as aethetics go, if you go with decora (also sometimes referred to as "designer style"), just about everything on the market comes in a decora style so it is easy to mix and match and gang everything together. Let me know if you need any further explanation.

The problem is, I have no decora anything now. Unless I'm missing something (entirely possible), all the wireless,upb,insteon style stuff is decora with paddles.

As an example, I have these:

http://www.danaroc.com/dailies/wp-content/themes/danaroc/uploads/lightswitch.jpg

But all the automated lighting stuff seems to use this style:

http://images.digitalmedianet.com/2006/Week_2/xg5ev182/story/insteon_timer.jpg

Ya, that is a problem. So what's the question.

:D

Back in a few....

I was half joking but I'm not sure what the issue is. That everything in the house needs to match? Then replace them all :). OK, here's my best suggestion. I'd be willing to wager money that there are decora adapters that will slip over the simple flip switches so that you could make everything match. They even have decora adpaters from round volume controls. I'll do a quick Google and post anything if I find it.

OK, here's one example.

http://www.smarthome.com/8572i.html

They make them in different combos but what I'm guessing also exists is just a single toggle to decora adapter insert so you could just get a multigang decora plate for whatever the size of your electrical box is and then mix and match as you need, adding adapter inserts over the toggle switches. In other words, with my idea all every space in the gang would be decora with adapters going over the toggles so that they also use a decora opening.

Some of the terms I would google on would be "decora toggle adapter" and/or some combination thereof.

No, the issue is (while I appreciate the help you still haven't solved :p ) does any of the automated lighting manufacturers make a switch NOT in the decora style but just as a flip button. For example, I installed a dimmer in the bathroom and Leviton makes a dimmer that still uses a flip button with the dimmer control as a small tab next to the flip. Still matches everything.

According to my architecht F.I.L., those flip style switches are old and unhip. (this from a 60-something dude who still wears his jackets from the 90s). He's been hassling me to rip out all the flip switches for years, and was very happy yesterday when he saw all the paddles.

Robert,

Smarthome manufactures a "ToggleLinc" which is an X10 switch that looks like a standard Non-Decora switch:
http://www.smarthome.com/23890w.html

They also have them using the newer Insteon technology:
http://www.smarthome.com/2466dw.html


Don't have any experience with them... but sounds like what you're asking about?

Cheers,
Paul

Robert,

Smarthome manufactures a "ToggleLinc" which is an X10 switch that looks like a standard Non-Decora switch:
http://www.smarthome.com/23890w.html

They also have them using the newer Insteon technology:
http://www.smarthome.com/2466dw.html


Don't have any experience with them... but sounds like what you're asking about?

Cheers,
Paul

Yes, that's the ticket....But holy cow. $45 for retro compared to the $19 ICON decoras. At that rate, I'll take QQQ's advice and replace 'em all ;)

Sorry, I misunderstood the question Robert. I thought you were trying to do something the right way for once. My bad.

p.s. For anyone not in the know Robert and I spar in pure fun...we've both know each other here for a while.

The problem is, I have no decora anything now. Unless I'm missing something (entirely possible), all the wireless,upb,insteon style stuff is decora with paddles.

Lutron's new aurora is a less-capable version of its Radio Ra, uses toggle-type dimmers, so you could match faceplates with to existing switches.
http://www.lutron.com/products/productSystems.aspx?sid=AuroRa&pid=WhatIsAuroRa&cid=0

http://www.lutron.com/products/images/Aurgroupweb.jpg

Lutron even has some "smart dimmers", the Faedro and Qoto, in toggle form-factor. Don't integrate with anything, but it gives you the option of swapping out some of your old dumb dimmers.
infor here: http://www.lutron.com/products/dimmers/?s=17000&t=17200

http://www.lutron.com/products/dimmers/images/faedra-copy.gif

Thanks Julie....Less capable is right though....Only 5 controllable dimmers :(

Sorry, I misunderstood the question Robert. I thought you were trying to do something the right way for once. My bad.

Why ruin tradition?


p.s. For anyone not in the know Robert and I spar in pure fun...we've both know each other here for a while.

Although in an effort to curb post counts, I'm not allowed to pick on his grammatical errors :p

According to my architecht F.I.L., those flip style switches are old and unhip. (this from a 60-something dude who still wears his jackets from the 90s). He's been hassling me to rip out all the flip switches for years, and was very happy yesterday when he saw all the paddles.

Next time you see your architect, punch him in the face for me. Being able to walk into a room and slap a light on or off is a heck of a lot easier than trying to figure out what part of a wall I can't see I need to poke. Especially when what I need to hit is off to my side and often facing the same direction I am.

I'd think long and hard about dropping z-wave for any of the other reasonably priced light automating types if they came out with a toggle instead of that stupid paddle design.

Does anyone have any real experience with the OnQ system that Julie posted about in the second post? It looks interesting, but I'd like to hear from people that have it or have atleast seen it and played with it.

Any idea as to cost?

I've been asking for anyone that has used the OnQ ALC system for a while but alas, no response. I can tell you I plan on using it and I will post a review when my house is done. You only have to wait another 7 or 8 months...

Here's one thread I found about it. (http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=4213&st=0)

IVB,

Have a look at SquareD which is a rebadged Clipsal C-Bus light control system. C-Bus is an Australian developed system. It is 12 years matured lighting control system. It has just been released in the US.

http://www.squaredlightingcontrol.com/category.cfm/pt_id/1

I am about to fully implement a system in a new house I am building here. It has excellent user interface Toolkit which has prgressively evolved over the years. Not sure how Sniender will be supporting it in the US Clipsal who Snieder acquired Clipsal a few years ago have just released it in the US.

The keypads are probably the slickest on the market in the world today (from what I have seen)

CQC has a C-Bus plug in thanks to Rohan who is an Aussie and switched onto C-Bus.

Ness Security who rebadge the ELK M1G here in Australia also have a C-Bus interface card that connects a serial expander board on the M1G. Elk I suspect would not have released it yet in the US as SquareD has only just been released. The C-Bus board is also going through a revision to support full duplex operation, version 2 is due in the next month or so.

A couple of interesting links http://www2.clipsal.com/cis/technical/product_groups/cbus

http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/index.php

http://www2.clipsal.com/cis/technical/downloads/c-bus_toolkit

The C-Bus system is a very robust wired control system, I am not sure how SquareD is going to be positioned in the market place, Here in Australia it is not the cheapest solution baring in mind we do not have the range you have in the US so competition is nowhere near as great as you have and I suspect will influence SquareD pricing policy. I will be interested to find out.

If you need to know some more on the C-Bus system I have done Clipsal Basic C-Bus 3 day training program and might be able to fill in any grey areas.

Have a look I think you will be impressed with the system.

Regards,

Fleetz

IVB, thanks for finding that thread.... I swear I tried every combination of ALC, OnQ, Hardwire lighting etc and never found that particular thread...

Has anyone priced out a Homeworks RF system? My wife and I are having a ~3000sq ft. house built, but it is in a development and our lighting options are, how you say, nonexistent.

We are meeting the actual builder next week but the line from sales thus far has been no outside contractors and no doing your own work during construction due to liabilty, warranty, etc.

I was thinking Homeworks RF might be the ticket, as I could replace all the swtiches and would get a kick out of doing the programming myself, but I've heard figures as high as $20K kicked around, and if it comes to a choice between a new M/C and some fancypants lighting system, I'm taking the motorcycle!

Thanks!

I've got some directional guidance, and for a 20+switch system, it's pretty darn close to $20K. It's close to $12K-$15K just for parts.

I put in a zWave 20-odd switch system for about $1K, but it is clearly not as robust, high-performing, or dependable as HomeWorks. You can get a Lutron RadioRA for much less. It's better performing, but not nearly as robust a protocol as HomeWorks, and interestingly won't message manually modified dim levels to your HA software (if you use one).

There's a RadioRA vs Homeworks thread here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=719955)

You might want to consider an HAI UPB system. Uses existing electrical wiring, similar to X10 but it is actually reliable. HAI has also recently added support for zwave. As an added plus it would be an actual dedicated hardware solution, where you wouldn't have to rely on a computer being on 24/7. For that size house you could probably easily get out for between 5k - 6k and really have a great system.

Has anyone priced out a Homeworks RF system? My wife and I are having a ~3000sq ft. house built, but it is in a development and our lighting options are, how you say, nonexistent.

We are meeting the actual builder next week but the line from sales thus far has been no outside contractors and no doing your own work during construction due to liabilty, warranty, etc.

I was thinking Homeworks RF might be the ticket, as I could replace all the swtiches and would get a kick out of doing the programming myself, but I've heard figures as high as $20K kicked around, and if it comes to a choice between a new M/C and some fancypants lighting system, I'm taking the motorcycle!

Thanks!

I install/program HomeServe systems and use it in my home (6000 sf, 3 stories, 100+ loads, 2 processors). PM me if you need/want some info.

You know the EDT I-line stuff seems very reasonably priced... I-Line (http://www.edt.biz/index.html) I emailed them and got some good information. Looks like they are <100 a switch retail. Completely hardwired system. I have turned away from the OnQ ALC pathway recently because it doesn't seem like OnQ is supporting it anymore. Nobody has the switches in stock and there hasn't been any news or updates on upcoming products in years. EDT on the other hand just came out with some new switches and has more on the horizon. I'm impressed so far....

Chris

That's too bad to hear. I have just started looking into the OnQ ALC system and like what I see. However I have a local supplier that can seems to keep the switches and parts in stock. In fact I just spoke with them today about it and they have an OnQ system installed in their facility/warehouse. So I am planning on stopping by to get a first hand look at it.

The OnQ is certainly an inexpensive hardwired option. There are a couple of modules that you need to get started, but list price is $339 for the main controller and about $140 for the expansion cards. Other cards (like a serial controller) list for maybe $250 and less. The regular switches list price is from $189 (for the 900 watt dimmer) and lower and a 4 scene switch lists for about $201. The local supplier I spoke with was selling all of these items for about 50% off list.

If my supplier feels confident in his ability to keep the items in stock, then I will give this system a serious look. I'll be able to make a more informed decision after actually seeing their system (a full system, not just a little display demo) in action.

Let us know what you think of the OnQ stuff! I have not been able to see or talk to anyone that has seen the system (or even one of the switches) in person. I found loads of stores that sell the ALC stuff online but NOBODY had any stock...

The I-Line stuff seems a little less expensive than ALC. Switches can be had from about 70 to 100 each and there really isn't a central controller to purchase so that saves you a couple hundred there. Each switch is "smart" so all the switches talk to the other switches to create the network...

I'm still up in there air on what I am going to use so it would be nice to her from anyone that has used either the OnQ ALC or the EDT I-Line.

Lutron just recently introduced a new version of the AuroRa system that Julie mentioned. The new AuroRa Security has contact closure inputs to connect to your security, so lights can go on if your security is tripped.

By the way, all AuroRa systems can be "bridged", which means you take 2 systems and make a 10 dimmer system. It's like a happy meal, in a 5 or 10 size. All the devices are preprogrammed. Install, plug in central antenna, and master control, and it's working.

My mom is getting one.

I've got some directional guidance, and for a 20+switch system, it's pretty darn close to $20K. It's close to $12K-$15K just for parts.

[/url]

I did a ball park estimate of 20 RF dimmers, processor and repeater and came up with 10800. Add a few keypads and I'd wager your 12-13000 is a real world estimate but, assuming you DIY's would install them I would typically include basic programming for that price. This is a very sophisticated system in terms of what could be done programmatically. You could turn on a toilet light and have the fan next to it also turn on and then when the toilet light was turned off keep the fan on for 15 minutes and then turn off. You could do double taps for global scenes. No one would press all off or goodnight by mistake, especially at a party. You could very easily and legally integrate table lamps into your lighting system. While it's not the least expensive option it's not priced out of the world and it is a very attractive industrial design and very simple, yet power programming tools. Did I echo QQQ's advice that it works every time, it can work with any dimmable load, even electronic and it can accomodate very large loads.

Alan

Has anyone priced out a Homeworks RF system? My wife and I are having a ~3000sq ft. house built, but it is in a development and our lighting options are, how you say, nonexistent.

We are meeting the actual builder next week but the line from sales thus far has been no outside contractors and no doing your own work during construction due to liabilty, warranty, etc.

I was thinking Homeworks RF might be the ticket, as I could replace all the swtiches and would get a kick out of doing the programming myself, but I've heard figures as high as $20K kicked around, and if it comes to a choice between a new M/C and some fancypants lighting system, I'm taking the motorcycle!

Thanks!Check into Insteon, theres plenty of us with well over 100 switches running flawlessly for much, much less. Have the fancy lighting and the motorcycle.

I cringe when I see people getting 10K bids for a couple dozen switches, for that kind of money you could get 300 Insteons and quite a few could be the 1000w variety.

Ask the electrician if they are installing traveller wires in the house, if they are your set and can run very large loads much easier

Has anyone priced out a Homeworks RF system? My wife and I are having a ~3000sq ft. house built, but it is in a development and our lighting options are, how you say, nonexistent.

We are meeting the actual builder next week but the line from sales thus far has been no outside contractors and no doing your own work during construction due to liabilty, warranty, etc.

I was thinking Homeworks RF might be the ticket, as I could replace all the swtiches and would get a kick out of doing the programming myself, but I've heard figures as high as $20K kicked around, and if it comes to a choice between a new M/C and some fancypants lighting system, I'm taking the motorcycle!

Thanks!

You are the customer! I can understand about not allowing you to get onto the job site, but a no joke AV company has the insurance and workers comp needed to get to the job site. I would fight this issue. He just does not want to take a chance on missing his dead line. But a good AV company is used to this kind of stuff and normally a project manager will smooth things over with the builder. I would call an AV company, and have them call the builder to get access to the job site. Even if all you are able to do is pre-wire.

If you are doing new construction as you are I would use a wired lighting control unless it is Control 4. Having your Lighting and AV done durring construction is really the only way to really get the best bang for the buck. Lots of time people actually roll their whole home automation, HT,and other stuff into their mortgage. 3000 sq foot house with no home automation structured wire.... that is nuts now days.

Oh by the way..... A Control 4 HTC that will not only control lights but act as your universal remote is only 600 bucks. Through in dimmers for $99 each and you are set. Couple hundred to have a dealer program it and you are done.

QQQ or anyone else:
If I have prewired for a Lutron Homeworks system, with 3 conductor Lutron cable homerun to each electrical outlet, and have all the 50+ Lutron homeworks dimmers, what type of Lutron processor do I need? I already have the Lutron panel with the homeruns coming in to it.

QQQ or anyone else:
If I have prewired for a Lutron Homeworks system, with 3 conductor Lutron cable homerun to each electrical outlet, and have all the 50+ Lutron homeworks dimmers, what type of Lutron processor do I need? I already have the Lutron panel with the homeruns coming in to it.

H4P5-H48-HRL-120 That is for Lutron Homeworks series 4

Check into Insteon, theres plenty of us with well over 100 switches running flawlessly for much, much less. Have the fancy lighting and the motorcycle.

I cringe when I see people getting 10K bids for a couple dozen switches, for that kind of money you could get 300 Insteons and quite a few could be the 1000w variety.

Ask the electrician if they are installing traveller wires in the house, if they are your set and can run very large loads much easier

Sorry to be daft - but why does the existence of the traveller wires allow for higher wattage with Insteon? I've done some reading and it looks to me that they are really for 3-way applications. ?

I'm struggling with the decision of what sort of lighting control to use. .

Sorry to be daft - but why does the existence of the traveller wires allow for higher wattage with Insteon? I've done some reading and it looks to me that they are really for 3-way applications. ?

I'm struggling with the decision of what sort of lighting control to use. .

WOW! The thread that ended up costing me a boatload is back.;)

As for why traveler wires would increase the load, I have no idea.

As for helping with your decision as to what kind of lighting control to use, we need a little more info. New construction (hardwired) or retrofit (RF or PLC)? Budget? Controller? etc.

WOW! The thread that ended up costing me a boatload is back.;)

As for why traveler wires would increase the load, I have no idea.

As for helping with your decision as to what kind of lighting control to use, we need a little more info. New construction (hardwired) or retrofit (RF or PLC)? Budget? Controller? etc.

(New construction, breaking ground in 1-2 months) ) I am doing AV distribution and automation DIY. But opinions of lighting control reliability seem to be all over the place, so I am leaving my budget flexible in that regard. I had initially planned on Insteon for the cost savings, but clearly hardwired is much more robust. I'd like to control lighting via a CQC/Elk setup (keypad scene controllers, also touchscreens via CQC).

It sounds to me like hardwired is an order of magnitude more expensive than Insteon / Zwave (5 figures compared to 4 figures). But I would consider having a pro come in and setup a lighting system as long as it was something I could take control of with my automation system.

The bottom line is I'd like to have the enhanced reliability of hardwired, but if I knew up front that Insteon would work well for me, there is no question I would use it. I've certainly read some good reports recently. As far as the WAF, she just wants to make sure the wall switches will work like a "regular house," so any successful automation is gravy.

EDIT: (Ah, and share what it was about the thread that made you "unload the boat"!)

Ah, and share what it was about the thread that made you "unload the boat"!

When I started reading this thread, I had an Insteon system. After I finished, I had a Homeworks Wireless system. You do the math.;):D

As for reliability, my Homeworks Wireless is as bullet proof as a hardwired system. The only time it has every missed a command was when my wife unplugged a repeater. (It has now been moved out of her site.) I have one device located inside a metal housing on the wrong side of a brick and block wall and it still gets every command. I made my own "lamp modules" out of metal handy boxes and they get every command, so it is bullet proof. But that level of RF reliability comes at a cost as it is expensive.

But once you get past the cost of the processor, a Homeworks Series 4 is not overly expensive. When the walls are open, you can run the wire and start with a small system and add on as you wish.

As for control, the Homeworks processor has an RS232 port and a publically available protocol, so control is not an issue. However, the processor can control all automated activities, so using and ELK/CQC for automating the lighting is not necessary.

Sorry to ask a newbie question, but can someone point me to examples of hardwired solutions? I always assumed that something like UPB is "hardwired" but reading this thread, it sounds like it more like additional wiring using proprietary hardware? I've only started to investigate HA options because I may be building a new home.

Thanks.

I always assumed that something like UPB is "hardwired" but reading this thread, it sounds like it more like additional wiring using proprietary hardware?

Correct. UPB uses what is known as PLC or Power Line Control. Other common PLC protocols are X10 and Insteon.

A true "hardwired" system can take two forms. In a localized system smart dimmers are wired back to a central processor. The dimmer can be controlled locally at the dimmer or by keypads or the processor. Examples are Lutron's Series 4 and OnQ's ALC.

In a centralized system, the lighting loads are wired back to specialized panels and the only way to control the lights is with keypads. Examples are Lutron's Series 8, Litetouch, Vantage and Centralite (may also have a localized version as well)

Of course, these types may be combined in one system. Lutron for example allows you combine both a centralized and localized system together. So you could have keypads in the main part of the house as a centralized system and smart dimmers in the bedrooms as a localized system. Plus you can add some RF stuff in there as well.:)

There are also several varieties of RF or wireless stuff. The new craze seems to be Z-wave, but there is also Zigbee and Lutron's Homeworks Wireless and RadioRA. I have a Homeworks Wireless system and it has been bulletproof so far and others report good results with Z-wave.

So there are tons of options out there. If I were building a new house today I would not hesistate to go with a hardwired solution. Once you have lighting control, it will become a must have in future homes.

Homeworks, Centralite, and C-bus are hardwired solutions. I think Cbus is http://www.squaredlightingcontrol.com/ in the US.

IVB,

If you could do it all over again, what would you do?

My x10-based system works just fine in my house, mind you.

Total cost was under $500.

Depends if I was subject to the same budget restrictions, and lived in the same house.

My house was built in 1911, I only have 2 wires to most locations (no neutral), lots of dirty HV appliances, and a current need to control 35ish loads.

I can't do X10 due to excessively dirty & old power lines. I was moving one of the wires in my daughter's closet, the sheathing literally disintegrated in my hands.

I've seen too many horror stories about Insteon, both the physical devices & the company's attitude to bother wasting my time.

I can't do UPB due to lack of 3rd wire.

zWave has dimmers that don't require 3 wires as they constantly bleed off something to the load. I probably have a 95% success rate on my commands, but i've got so much damn RF interference in the house & neighborhood I can't ask for much more. (overhead power lines, multiple wifi, baby monitors, cellphones, microwaves, plaster/lathe ceilings)

Hence, if I was subject to the same budget & house restrictions, I'd have no choice but to do zWave again. I've got ~35 switches or modules controlled, in the $1000-$1500 neighborhood.

But, if budget wasn't an issue, and if I was remodeling so the walls were open, I wouldn't think twice - HomeWorks hardwired, hands down, no questions asked. Here's why:
1) 100.00% guarantee of success. It's amazing how much nicer that last 1-5% is.
2) Ability to relocate switch banks, and just have multibutton keypads. I have 2 locations with 3 switches, many with 2 switches, and 3 single-gang but 2 switch/half-size switches that really piss me off cuz they're ugly. I could put all the main switches in the closet of each room, and just have those keypads. That would be much much cleaner.
3) truly instanteous response time. I'm only experiencing perhaps a 2s lag time, but it's enough to be irritating at night time.

Of course, HomeWorks switches are $300 or more each, controller is $2K, and when I remodel it'll be ballpark of 75 loads so ~$25K-$30K for automated lighting incl paying someone to come in and run all the wiring, but no way would I trust any non-hardwired protocol for that many loads.

If I couldn't afford $30K, I'd shoot for one of the cheaper hardwired protocols presuming I could get the right types of device control, but I would absolutely go hardwired.

Probably not the answer most folks think a DIY'er like me would give, probably not worth it to most folks, but for me it'd be worth it.

Depends if I was subject to the same budget restrictions, and lived in the same house.

My house was built in 1911, I only have 2 wires to most locations (no neutral), lots of dirty HV appliances, and a current need to control 35ish loads.

I can't do X10 due to excessively dirty & old power lines. I was moving one of the wires in my daughter's closet, the sheathing literally disintegrated in my hands.

I've seen too many horror stories about Insteon, both the physical devices & the company's attitude to bother wasting my time.

I can't do UPB due to lack of 3rd wire.
so you just rewire your whole house... if your wires are falling apart anyway, now seems like a good time to do that, before any fires happen... besides I thought you liked running wires... lots and lots of wires.... over and over... just see this thread (http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=1314) for proof...
as far as X10 goes, it is just evil... I tried X10... my lights ended up being possessed by the devil himself... turn on when they wanted, turn off when they wanted... and occasionally strobe when they wanted...
I ended up going with insteon, since it was the cheapest option CQC supports (that wasn't X10...) I have a somewhat close to 97% reliable setup...
there is also usually very little/no delay from button press to action... but every once in a while there is a 1s delay... very annoying...
zWave has dimmers that don't require 3 wires as they constantly bleed off something to the load. I probably have a 95% success rate on my commands, but i've got so much damn RF interference in the house & neighborhood I can't ask for much more. (overhead power lines, multiple wifi, baby monitors, cellphones, microwaves, plaster/lathe ceilings)

Hence, if I was subject to the same budget & house restrictions, I'd have no choice but to do zWave again. I've got ~35 switches or modules controlled, in the $1000-$1500 neighborhood.
I still think all that RF zipping around from ZWave is scary...
but it is hard to argue the cost/performance side as it does work well...

But, if budget wasn't an issue, and if I was remodeling so the walls were open, I wouldn't think twice - HomeWorks hardwired, hands down, no questions asked. Here's why:
1) 100.00% guarantee of success. It's amazing how much nicer that last 1-5% is.
2) Ability to relocate switch banks, and just have multibutton keypads. I have 2 locations with 3 switches, many with 2 switches, and 3 single-gang but 2 switch/half-size switches that really piss me off cuz they're ugly. I could put all the main switches in the closet of each room, and just have those keypads. That would be much much cleaner.
3) truly instanteous response time. I'm only experiencing perhaps a 2s lag time, but it's enough to be irritating at night time.

Of course, HomeWorks switches are $300 or more each, controller is $2K, and when I remodel it'll be ballpark of 75 loads so ~$25K-$30K for automated lighting incl paying someone to come in and run all the wiring, but no way would I trust any non-hardwired protocol for that many loads.

Probably not the answer most folks think a DIY'er like me would give, probably not worth it to most folks, but for me it'd be worth it.
actually, I agree with this 100%, if I had the time and money I would go hard wired... actually, if I had either the time or money I would try my best to go hard wired... actually, come to think about it, I might even think about going low voltage/battery backed up... there was a very good thread over at CT about that, it looked intriguing...
I guess I am not a very good DIY'er then?

I don't profess to understand this, but the CT guys said that there's tons of RF thrown off the power lines from Insteon/UPB as well.

I'm forbidding myself from doing any HV wiring work as my uncle died in a basement fire where he did his own wiring, turns out he didn't run it correctly. It's like replacing the brakes on my car - it's probably damn easy to do as long as you know everything, but the penalty of missing something is too high for me to stomach and i'd rather write the big check now than regret it for years.

I can't afford to hire someone to come in and rerun all the HV wires, it's $150 per run, but there's two runs per light (one from box->light, one from light->switch). Too much for now, esp as zWave is working, but when I remodel i'm definitely ripping out all the HV and replacing it.

I thought Insteon required neutral as well. My house does not have neutral either.

X-10 is not that bad, it works, at least most of the time :) Right combination of the noise filters and signal busters can do wonders to x-10.

IVB, did you look at Lutron RadioRA at all?

I thought Insteon required neutral as well. My house does not have neutral either.

If you don't mind beta testing :eek:, Smarthome now offers an Insteon 2-wire solution. Not exactly elegant, but it’s an alternative.

http://www.smarthome.com/2474d.html

I thought Insteon required neutral as well. My house does not have neutral either.
as far as I know, yes it does... but you should have a neutral... they are fun, and you have more options with one then without... just wire one up...

X-10 is not that bad, it works, at least most of the time :) Right combination of the noise filters and signal busters can do wonders to x-10.
actually my x10 was working perfectly for 6 months or so... then over night it became possessed... full moon or something I guess... never got better...

I don't profess to understand this, but the CT guys said that there's tons of RF thrown off the power lines from Insteon/UPB as well.
I tend to not agree with their logic... BUT it is kind of irrelevant as I have 4 of those RF signalinks... so my argument/fear is kind of pointless...

IVB, did you look at Lutron RadioRA at all?

I did, here's the thread about it. (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=719955) In the end, for the reasons stated on that thread, HomeWorks seems like a better fit.

as far as I know, yes it does... but you should have a neutral... they are fun, and you have more options with one then without... just wire one up...


Kidding, right? Rewire the entire house?

actually my x10 was working perfectly for 6 months or so... then over night it became possessed... full moon or something I guess... never got better...


Jeff Voip's XTB and XTB II seem to have the power of the exorcism to the possessed x10 systems. Google it, you might find the cure.

Kidding, right? Rewire the entire house?
well, no not really... how hard could it be? actually, if you have conduit, its not that hard...:)

Jeff Voip's XTB and XTB II seem to have the power of the exorcism to the possessed x10 systems. Google it, you might find the cure.
too late, ripped out the x10 stuff replaced with insteon and couldn't be happier...
well I could be happier if I had a hard wired solution... but that seems like too much work...:)

Question
I would like to use cat5 but code is the problem ...

If I put a 24v relay in an electrical box I need to terminate 24v and 120v at the relay in the same box with a nice looking switch, but your not supose to have 120 and low level in the same box. how do you get around this problem is my question

Hire an electrician or HomeWorks/Centralite installer who knows the NEC.

Seriously though, I think I know the answer to your question, but rather than hazard a guess that could kill you (or me when I do this) I'd want to make sure a professional takes care of this.

You can probably work with your HWI installer on trying to minimize cost. I have a 1906 Craftsman that now has a combination of Homeworks and old fashioned (1920's) two button toggles. There were some rooms that keypads just didn't fit.

A few things to look at from a cost perspective. I think the wired processor is less expensive that the wireless. That's what I seem to remember from when I did the install a few years ago. So, look at using a wired P5 processors and then the wireless repeater for hard to reach areas. You can also use switches in some places rather than keypads. I have a few places where i wanted local control, but didn't need a keypad. This saves in rewiring cost, keypad cost, and lets you free space for other loads. The rewire also doesn't necessarily have to be rewired as a homerun to a single wiring closet. I was initially looking at putting the some WPB's elsewhere in the house (FYI - WPB - Wallbox Power Module. 6 load power module that hooks to the controller). In the end, I ended up moving the breaker box and doing a full rewire, but you do have the option of localizing some of the load handling.

I'm extremely happy with the HWI system. As everyone else said, it's rock solid and there's never ever a thought whether or not the lights will turn on/off, they just do and the lighting system is now just part of the house. I still have some X10 in my bedroom that works surprisingingly well, but I can't turn off the lights if I plug my laptop into the outlet by the bed. :)

...alan

I think the wired processor is less expensive that the wireless. That's what I seem to remember from when I did the install a few years ago. So, look at using a wired P5 processors and then the wireless repeater for hard to reach areas.

Actually, except for one model (which by the time you add the interfaces is more, the wireless proc is cheaper. But the wireless devices are so much more expensive than the wired.

Question
I would like to use cat5 but code is the problem ...

If I put a 24v relay in an electrical box I need to terminate 24v and 120v at the relay in the same box with a nice looking switch, but your not supose to have 120 and low level in the same box. how do you get around this problem is my question

I'm not sure about the implications of having a relay and HV in the same box. But with LV and HV, it is generally OK as long as the LV insulation is rated for the highest HV line in the box. This is how the hardwired lighting systems that use cat5e wire and HV at the switch operate. They offer special cat5e wire (or each switch comes with a short sheath that you put on regular cat5e wire) that has the higher voltage rating.

That being said, you still should speak with the inspectors before any installation to make sure that they understand the process and that it meets local codes. If they don't understand it, they are going to fail it during the inspection.

Question
I would like to use cat5 but code is the problem ...

If I put a 24v relay in an electrical box I need to terminate 24v and 120v at the relay in the same box with a nice looking switch, but your not supose to have 120 and low level in the same box. how do you get around this problem is my question

elm_sd,
I haven't read this thread, just your post, so I am not following the context of the question, but there are special in wall boxes that have a divider plate (removable) that seperates low from high voltage. When you install the device, you then wire what you need.

I think SmartHome sells these boxes.

Hey smoothtlk.

The problem is I was both in the same box so I could use the orgional wiring..
The high level would would be terminated to the relays and power to the relays would come from the PLC to activate them and as well as momentary switches using the low level to the PLC is the reason I want to use cat 5. I could do all switching at the PLC but that requires a lot of rewiring.

I either need to find some cat5 like wire that will by code take HL voltage or design my own electrical box(mabe a special seperaltor plate I could make at work).

I'd reconsider OnQ ALC. At least check out Tony Stewart's comments:

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=8015&st=15