Initial impressions of Evolution Acoustics MM3 Loudspeaker (http://evolutionacoustics.com/lineup.html)

I've been fortunate enough to receive my pair of Evolutions Acoustics MM3s this week and wanted to share my initial excitement and impressions.

It can be quite intimidating when 1887 lbs of freight arrive at your door, but in the case of the MM3s is was a welcomed sight. The crating system and speaker setup was actually a pleasure and straight forward- just have some strong friends around. (Thanks Arthur!)

Given the speakers were brand new with no break-in, I was expecting less than stellar sound- actually even a little disappointment. I can’t help to write the superlatives below because that’s what I’m hearing. If it appears too over top, so be it, but for me it is an accurate description of the speaker’s performance so far.

I placed the MM3s where my trusted Vandersteen 5As sat for quite some time and the sound quality (out of the box,, unspiked, with the factory control settings) is nothing short of revelatory! They are totally disappearing in my room leaving a glorious wide and deep soundstage. There is no hint that the sound is even coming from the speakers- magical given their size. To my amazement, they are disappearing better than my 5As did.

Clarity and detail are the best I have heard period. The bass is amazingly tight and deep. Dynamics are to die for and are downright scary. The DarTZeel’s 100 watts can drive these to ear splitting levels in my 17 x 21 room. The speaker is also wonderfully coherent with a superb blending of the 15” powered woofers, Accuton mids, and ribbon tweeter. Highs are much better than my 5As with no hint of edge or fatigue. I know things will continue to change, but as it is right now, there is not one area where this speaker is not world class and the best I’ve heard. To my ears, they are sounding considerably better than they did at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. Once you start listening it's hard to break away as they are just so engaging and musical.

The build quality and finish are superb. Each speaker is 6 feet tall and close to 600lbs yet has so many graceful curves and lines it is truly a thing of beauty. They taper to only 9 inches around back. The cabinet is the most inert I know of.

I truly had some reservations about selling my 5As, but there is no question these speakers are in an entirely different league. I’m looking forward to even more improvements as things break-in, final placement and controls are tweaked, and the spikes are installed.

This is going to be fun! Back to the music!

Associated gear
DarTZeel NHB 108 Model One power amplifier, DarTZeel NHB 18NS preamp, EMM Labs DAC6 and CDSD, Evolution Acoustics speaker cable, Jena Labs Dreamdancer interconnect, darT to Zeel 50 Ohm BNC interconnect, Silent Source power cords, and Grand Prix Audio stands.

Ah... if we could hear what you could hear with your ears...

Congratulations on your big upgrade :)

I'm curious (as a Vandersteen owner)... what happened to your 5As?

- Steve O.

Gladiator;

congrats on the MM3's.....i can't wait for mine to arrive in a couple of weeks. i am very glad to hear that my two concerns from what i heard from RMAF are sounding right to your ears........bass coherency and whether the dart is completely up to the job.

the room at RMAF was problematic but i expect to hear a whole new level of speaker performance once the MM3's get in a proper room......exactly as you are saying. a speaker with the naturalness, dynamics, extention, coherence and information that the Evolution MM3 has will test any room and system.....and expose any flaws. OTOH it will reward a good room and setup with what i expect to be a new level of speaker performance.

i look forward to further insights into the MM3's as they reveal themselves to you.

That's quite a frequency response they claim (7 hz at +/-6 db, 10 hz +/- 3 db.

Is the designer of these speakers a designer from a previous company? They look exciting to own. Congrats.

Hi

SLlightly OT Mike I thought you were getting the VS VR-11? Not back to the thread... I also find the bass performance claims rather unusual... single digit at -6 dB!!! Anyhow congrats, I will try to audition them .. MSRP?

Steve- I sold the 5As to a good friend of mine who heard them at my place several times and loved the sound. It was nice to "keep them in the family". I hope to hear them again at his place one day.

Mike- I did more listeing last might and the bass is absolutely very coherent with the rest of the speaker. I believe the subs were crossed over a little too high at the RMAF. Listening to Christian McBride's "Night Train" is unbelieveable. Depth, texture, focus, and the tightness of the bass are wonderful. I can only begin to imagine how these will sound in your room :eek:. You might not get as excited as I am since you are coming from VR9s which ain't too shabby ;).

Given the unique design and construction of the cabinet and the dual 1000 watt powered 15" drivers, plus some room boundry reinforcement, I totally believe the low end response is probably accurate. I've been told by one of the designers that they have in fact measured response to 10 Hz.

The MSRP is $38,000, and I hate to say this, but it is an absolute bargain in comparison to some other company's offerings for a "statement" speaker. Given their design, build quality, finish, features (adjustability) and performance, I would buy these speakers over anything else on the market regardless of price. Just my humble opinion. As always, it always comes to personal preference.

Hi

SLlightly OT Mike I thought you were getting the VS VR-11? Not back to the thread... I also find the bass performance claims rather unusual... single digit at -6 dB!!! Anyhow congrats, I will try to audition them .. MSRP?

Frantz,

the 11's are still on order (since July 10th).......from what i understand they have not yet started them for whatever reason. at this point i own two sets of over 600 pound and over 6 feet tall speakers. i still have the VR7SE's that VS loaned me until the VR11's are delivered.

i had been exposed to the development of the Evolution Acoustics MM3 for more than a couple of years and have heard the various interations thru it's development. i love that Accuton ceramic mid-range from my Kharma days and using two of them takes the MM3 to new heights of clarity and linearity in the mids. i heard the final version of the MM3 in August when it was going thru it's voicing and was fully smitten. then at RMAF they continued to amaze but the setup and room were not close to ideal.

i can't wait to get them in my room and eliminate any room excuses. Gladiator's comments confirm my expectations to some degree.

I'm a bit surprised about using 15" subs, but I guess they really wanted to hit the low frequencies. They're equalizing to get it, of course, hence the powered subs. Is it a 1st order design?

I know you are probably quite busy listening, but is it possible for you to take some pictures of your setup? Are they visually imposing in the room? The website pictures dont seem to give much justice to them visually speaking.

The MSRP is $38,000, and I hate to say this, but it is an absolute bargain in comparison to some other company's offerings for a "statement" speaker. Given their design, build quality, finish, features (adjustability) and performance, I would buy these speakers over anything else on the market regardless of price. Just my humble opinion. As always, it always comes to personal preference.
I am a free market advocate and in general believe that companies have every right to charge what they want and more power to them if the market will support it. But from a strictly personal perspective I think the price points on many of the reference speakers out there are ridiculously inflated. In other words, it's nice to see a speaker likes this being sold for 38K instead of 100K, because I strongly suspect that's what a lot of other manufacturers marketing a set of speaker with the same cost of materials would be selling them for.

I'd also like to see some pictures. I've always loved big reference speaker systems.

QQQ

I , also. find the prices of high end audio gear obscene, 30,000 speaker cables, >100,000 speakers, etc... Yet the cost of material is not a good reference else several software would be less than $1 dollar in most instances....

I am a free market advocate and in general believe that companies have every right to charge what they want and more power to them if the market will support it. But from a strictly personal perspective I think the price points on many of the reference speakers out there are ridiculously inflated. In other words, it's nice to see a speaker likes this being sold for 38K instead of 100K, because I strongly suspect that's what a lot of other manufacturers marketing a set of speaker with the same cost of materials would be selling them for.

True, but give these guys some reviews and some success and they'll come out with a $100K product. It's the way it works. Besides, you always have to have the flagship that costs 2.5 times as much (work it out, that's the "flagship multiplier") so that the people with way too much money can feel better than the people that only have lots of it.

Sure guys, here's a few shots of my system. I hope they are to your liking.

http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1165064710.jpg
http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1165064711.jpg
http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1165065039.jpg
http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1165064712.jpg

Very nice. That's a Dartzeel preamp and amp. What are the other components?

Thank you QQQ. The other components are the Emm Labs CDSD transport and DAC6. They will be replaced shortly by the new Emm Labs CDSA SE one box SACD/CD player which has all of the recent Emm Signature upgrades in a one box design. The stands are from Grand Prix Audio. Cabling is from Evolution Acoustics (speaker cable-same wire internally on the speaker), Jena Labs (interconnect), and Silent Source (power cords). The DarTZeel amp and preamp use the darT to Zeel 50 Ohm BNC interface. Electricity to the system is supplied by a MGE/Topaz 5 Kva isolation transformer.

The new Emm CDSA SE will sit just below the preamp in the Grand Prix stand where the DAC6 now is. The CDSD is on the floor - not the best spot for a transport.

What is the long thin black box I see up on the ceiling? Normally I'd assume it was an electric screen but I am not sure since this looks like a 2-channel system and I see no sign of video components.

If it's not a drop-down projector screen, it could be something like an 8th Nerve Corner seam...

Who made your quadratic diffusors?

The setup looks first rate - is your CDSD/DAC6E going the same place your 5As went? If so... LUCKY GUY :)

- Steve O.

Beautiful setup.

David

The black object on the ceiling is a 100 inch Stewart Electric screen- if you look carefully you can spot the remote eye for it ;). My home theater is on a brief hiatus and I will eventually add home theater components at some point (that's why I kept the screen), although more modest gear than what I had.

The diffusors are made by Auralex Acoustics.

Thank you David, you have quite a system yourself!

If it's not a drop-down projector screen, it could be something like an 8th Nerve Corner seam...

Who made your quadratic diffusors?

The setup looks first rate - is your CDSD/DAC6E going the same place your 5As went? If so... LUCKY GUY :)

- Steve O.


Not unless I sell a kidney!!!

Gladiator's room looks awesome and I can't wait till I get a chance to hear it.

George

Holy smokes!! It does look 100000x better in your home than on the website. I thought these were made out of aluminum and were sliver/black :o

Congrats!

P.S. Is the speaker one piece or is it 3 separate chambers? I would think its very difficult to move the whole monolith!

Not unless I sell a kidney!!!

Gladiator's room looks awesome and I can't wait till I get a chance to hear it.

George

George,

You lucky bastard! I've been around avsforum a LOT longer that audiocircle, but I remember your setup. I thought you were a Salk Sound diehard...

- Steve O.

Holy smokes!! It does look 100000x better in your home than on the website. I thought these were made out of aluminum and were sliver/black :o

Congrats!

P.S. Is the speaker one piece or is it 3 separate chambers? I would think its very difficult to move the whole monolith!


Yes, it is three separate cabinets that attach together with an innovative "latching" system activated by inserting a 12 inch long allen key into a small opening on the rear of the speaker. The speaker system is totally modular. One could start with an MM One, and later upgrade to an MM Three simply by purchasing the two woofer cabinets.

George,

You lucky bastard! I've been around avsforum a LOT longer that audiocircle, but I remember your setup. I thought you were a Salk Sound diehard...

- Steve O.

I still haven't sold my Salk HT3's... ;)

It says a lot that it will take a $20k speaker to potentially unseat the Salks.

George

Does anyone know what the list price is for the MM One speaker with stand?

Does anyone know what the list price is for the MM One speaker with stand?

I believe they are $15,000. Response is down to 40 Hz. Mid/Tweeter module is exactly the same as the MM 2&3.

I still haven't sold my Salk HT3's... ;)

It says a lot that it will take a $20k speaker to potentially unseat the Salks.

George

The Salks are a very good value.

Yes, it is three separate cabinets that attach together with an innovative "latching" system activated by inserting a 12 inch long allen key into a small opening on the rear of the speaker. The speaker system is totally modular. One could start with an MM One, and later upgrade to an MM Three simply by purchasing the two woofer cabinets.

I didn't know that, one can move up the ladder from the MM one that's great!

BTW, Gladiator pics looks nice but still don't do justice to them when your standing right in front of them.

Yes, it is three separate cabinets that attach together with an innovative "latching" system activated by inserting a 12 inch long allen key into a small opening on the rear of the speaker. The speaker system is totally modular. One could start with an MM One, and later upgrade to an MM Three simply by purchasing the two woofer cabinets.

THis is probably a dumb question, but how do you get the top subwoofer onto the monolith? I would assume it to be at least 180lbs. Did you use a crane :D? Even with 2 burly men, its pretty tough to lift the subwoofer up 5' in the air and align it correctly right? :D

THis is probably a dumb question, but how do you get the top subwoofer onto the monolith? I would assume it to be at least 180lbs. Did you use a crane :D? Even with 2 burly men, its pretty tough to lift the subwoofer up 5' in the air and align it correctly right? :D

They are assembled horizontally on the ground and then the whole speaker is stood up as one unit. The manual is very detailed regarding setup and recommends five strong people for that last step :eek: Which is what my eyes were doing when I was lifting :D

the finish quality is quite nice from the pics... nice piece of furniture in addition to what looks like an interesting speaker design. How is the imaging .... if you were to stand up, do you fall out of the sweet spot? For example, my X1's have a wide but thin squish band of good sound... if you stand up, you're way out of the sweet spot.

They are assembled horizontally on the ground and then the whole speaker is stood up as one unit. The manual is very detailed regarding setup and recommends five strong people for that last step :eek: Which is what my eyes were doing when I was lifting :D

Thanks for the insight :D Yeah, lifting a 600+ lb monolyth has got to be very difficult. Luckily you have nice carpet and not hardwood. With hardwood, the bottom subwoofer would slide around unless you had a sucker who was willing to stability the bottom while the rest of you "verticalized" the tower. :D

Where are they made? Curious. Wonder if the cabinets are outsourced or someting to hit that price point. Seems like a great deal for that much speaker!

KeithR

the finish quality is quite nice from the pics... nice piece of furniture in addition to what looks like an interesting speaker design. How is the imaging .... if you were to stand up, do you fall out of the sweet spot? For example, my X1's have a wide but thin squish band of good sound... if you stand up, you're way out of the sweet spot.

The vertical "sweet spot" for the tweeter is between 33" and 41" with spikes to adjust for ear heights outside that window. So yes, standing up will change the sound although it is still very listenable (the imaging doesn't collapse). They seem to be less sensitive than my 5As were in terms of horizontal movement as well.

The finish is like a nice piece of furniture, but there is a lot going both externally and internally in the design of the cabinet that are directly contributing to their amazing performance. The mid section is up to 6 inches thick in some sections and the internals are desgined in such a way to eliminate cabinet resonances. It's furniture quality, but with a purpose.

Keith- I believe they are 100% built, finished, and assembled in the USA (California) :D . It is a tremendous deal for this much speaker. I really couldn't be happier.

Hi

Aside frrom a very few exceptions, such as the MBL101.. speakers have a sweet spot where they produce there best performance...

I like the price point of these MTM and the upgrade path they provide. Would like to audition them...

Very nice! but does it ever end? At one time I would have been envious, but I just got too damn tired of the rat race. Blowing up components, scratching CD players, swapping cables, countless hours of listening to the same songs over and over again to evaluate. OBSESSING, STRESSING OUT. This was my experience. How do you guys continue to do it? Forget about the money..if you got it, you may as well spend it. I do. The purpose of this post is not to insult or criticize, but merely a means to help me with my OCD therapy.

Very nice! but does it ever end? At one time I would have been envious, but I just got too damn tired of the rat race. Blowing up components, scratching CD players, swapping cables, countless hours of listening to the same songs over and over again to evaluate. OBSESSING, STRESSING OUT. This was my experience. How do you guys continue to do it? Forget about the money..if you got it, you may as well spend it. I do. The purpose of this post is not to insult or criticize, but merely a means to help me with my OCD therapy.
I do not know who this quote is from but it is absolutely true:
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

All the forums here are evidence of that truth. My favorite is when someone goes crazy over a dead pixel...which in most would NEVER be noticed under normal viewing circumstances and can only be noticed when one is playing certain material and staring at and examining the portion of the screen where the dead pixel is.

I do not know who this quote is from but it is absolutely true:
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

All the forums here are evidence of that truth. My favorite is when someone goes crazy over a dead pixel...which in most would NEVER be noticed under normal viewing circumstances and can only be noticed when one is playing certain material and staring at and examining the portion of the screen where the dead pixel is.

Once you know, you know, and it takes over. For my LCDs, they must have no pixel defects otherwise my eyes concentrate on them - especially if they are stuck bright pixels. Now, dead pixels are fine. If they stay dark, I have no problem with them. But, a bright green pixel.... uggg. :D

Also, if for some reason one of the tweeters where to be pushed in on my speakers, the sq could be the same as it was before, but I would totally be bugged by knowledge of a defect.

I agree - pixels that are stuck on are a whole different ball of wax and can be quite obnoxious because they call attention to themselves. However if I were you I would have phrased one sentence a bit differently:

"For my LCDs, they must have no pixel defects otherwise my eyes concentrate on them"

I believe that should read "they must have no pixel defects otherwise I obsessively concentrate on them" :D.

I am trying to catch up.
The MMThree are only 40k? Not too many photos around, but the finishing from the few photos does not look very impressive...Are the sealed or ported?
Do you all only buy from Blue Light Audio?
Have you guys listened to the Magico range of speakers, e.g. Model 6?

The MM3s are $38K and are a sealed design. Blue Light Audio is the distributor. Speakers are currently sold through Chambers Audio. Not sure if my photos are bad , but what is it you don't think is impressive about the finish? The finish, for me, is absolutely gorgeous. Is it the color, the lines, the black transition pieces? I could certainly agree with someone not liking their overall appearance, but from a finish (quality) standpoint they are flawless.

Never heard the Magico range of speakers but would love to given their positive press. You have a wonderful system built around the Magico Minis WSlam- congratulations!

HI Gladiator,
Thank you for your response.
For 38k, you do seem to be getting a 'lot' for the price.
When I commented on the finishing, it is because they clearly look like a veneered box. What is the cabinet made of? Somehow they do not look like wood to me. Probably some variations of MDF material?
And their website is so 'shady' .Looks like they have no distribution channel! No sensible business would go alone with one distributor (unless the distributor themselves is behind the speakers).
I know I am making a lot of potential allegations, but 38k is 'too good' a deal in the hi-fi world.
I hope you get to listen to the Magico soon! You should write to Alon Wolf and arrange. There is simply no going back for me after I listened to the Magico. In HK, the same dealer carries VS also carries Magico. I have listened to the 'big' VS, and frankly, the Magico Model 6 blew them all away *easily*. Mr. Wolf is doing something 'special'... what he is doing is a no-compromise, no corner-cutting approach in an stubborn-perfectionist way. The results are undeniable...

Actually the construction is similar to the Magico Mini, but taken to another level. It is not just a veneered box, but untold amounts of white birch "plywood" horizontally stacked and bonded together in something like a 4 ton press. The cabinet wall is 6 inches thick in some sections and inert as a piece of granite. The whole speaker weighs close to 600lbs and designed both internally and externally to reduce reflections and resonances.

Yes, $38K appears to good to be true, but it is not- this a statement speaker at all levels. In today's pricing environment, these could easily retail at around $100K.

As for the website, I agree, it needs to be updated and presented in a more professional manner. However, there a lot orders to be filled and building speakers is the priority at this time. I can't argue about the business model- they appear to be selling quite well.

The Magico Model 6 looks like a world beater, but at $98K is way out of my league. I'll settle for 600lbs of speaker for $38K . ;)

Hi again Gladiator,

I would love to hear the Evolution. Unfortunately, given their current distribution model, I doubt I will ever get a chance to. If they are as good as you say they are, then it's a true shame that not more music lovers can get a hand on these speakers.

Just curious though, where did you get the information about the cabinet design? I do not mean to doubt your source, but I honestly doubt the kind of construction you described will end up with a speaker of ONLY 600lbs! If they indeed are birch plywood (horizaontally stacked, btw, is cheaper then horizontally stacked as far as I was told), with Granite inside, then they should weigh TONS and not a mere 600lbs! The MINI are 220lbs! And they are much smaller then any of the Evolution.

I also doubt that one can ever apply veneer the vertical grain on an open ply. One look at the Magico Mini and you will know what I mean. And frankly, stacked ply looks great! The way Magico approached the cabinet design basically shows you the cabinet 'naked'. No veneer to hide any potential defects.

Of course, if indeed these are 100k caliber speakers, yet sell for 38k, then they are a steal. But honestly, when was the last time the hifi industry offers a steal? It's much easier to find a scam then a steal (in almost ALL sectors, not just hifi)... or better yet, WHY would anyone 'offer' such good value? I have yet met a person who is in the business (any business) and does not want to make more money...

Well, I can't listen to the Evolution given the geographic constraint, but you should be able to go listen to Magico! I am starting to sound like I work for Magico... I of course, do not, and am not affiliated. But the Magico speakers (I have only listened to the Mini and the Model 6, look forward to listening to the Ultimate!) have re-excited all my senses after 14 yrs in the hobby. Truly remarkable, and deserve the highest praises.

Hi Gladiator,
Does Evolution have any construction photos for their speakers?
It is pointless to mystify the cabinets construction... if you have the 'stuff', they should show it! Sonus Faber does, Magico does... I don't need to say which company uses 'mysterious' glorified MDF!

You can see the tiny MINI construction photos here:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/magico/mini_2.html

As tiny as that is (well, not really Mini, but afterall, a stand mount 2 way), when solid material is used, this already weighs 120lbs!

HI Gladiator,
Thank you for your response.
For 38k, you do seem to be getting a 'lot' for the price.
When I commented on the finishing, it is because they clearly look like a veneered box. What is the cabinet made of? Somehow they do not look like wood to me. Probably some variations of MDF material?
And their website is so 'shady' .Looks like they have no distribution channel! No sensible business would go alone with one distributor (unless the distributor themselves is behind the speakers).
I know I am making a lot of potential allegations, but 38k is 'too good' a deal in the hi-fi world.
I hope you get to listen to the Magico soon! You should write to Alon Wolf and arrange. There is simply no going back for me after I listened to the Magico. In HK, the same dealer carries VS also carries Magico. I have listened to the 'big' VS, and frankly, the Magico Model 6 blew them all away *easily*. Mr. Wolf is doing something 'special'... what he is doing is a no-compromise, no corner-cutting approach in an stubborn-perfectionist way. The results are undeniable...


I listened to the 6's last week, and agree-it's crazy good. Alon, unlike anybody else in this category, is making his own drivers. When you see up close how and why he's taken this approach you will understand. He will have a pair at the CES, and I'd encourage attendees to check it out. He'll be introducing some more affordable models as well.

I do not want to 'steal' this thread and shift the focus to Magico, but I totally agree with grellberg, the Model 6 are on a class of its own. In fact, The MINI is on a class of its own. If you are willing to shelf out 38k for a pair of speakers, I think it is best for one to be 'well informed' of what is out there, and what can be achieved when someone as crazy (a compliment) and as stubborn (again, a compliment in this case) like Alon Wolf puts his resources behind a design.

Can't wait for CES to find out what Magico has up on their sleeves...

WSlam- You need to read more carefully. I never stated there was granite used in the construction of the speaker. I said the final cabinet is as inert as a piece of granite- not granite itself.

Correct if I'm wrong, but the stands of the Magico Mini weigh 120lbs contributing to the overall weight of 220 lbs. The speaker by itself is only 80-100lbs.

FYI- The Evolution is the same horizontal "stacked" construction as the Magico Mini taken to another level entirely- trust me on that one. I saw the internals of the Magico Mini and I saw the internals on the Evolutions- not even close. Not sure about your comments regarding "vertical” veneering. The external grain and finish on the Evolution is the actual horizontally "stacked" white birch construction. Same as the Mini! The Evolution is not hiding anything. There is no "veneered" wood on the Evolution.

Here is an example of vertical stacking (http://www.nuforce.com/gallery/S-9/S-9%20Construction-V5.pdf) construction similar to the Mini and Evolution.

As far as steals or values, perhaps you paid too much for a 100lb 2 way? :eek:

Thanks Gladiator for your comments.
I don't know. I am not a speakers-builder... and now there's no veneer? That is definitely veneered from the few photos I saw. I can only assume the photos are not doing its justice.
well, I didn't pay the Mini by the pound =). They sound gorgeous and suit my physical requirements.

Do you have any photos of the Evolution construction? Would love to see... Pioneer (TAD) is another one that has very impressive construction...

I listened to the 6's last week, and agree-it's crazy good. Alon, unlike anybody else in this category, is making his own drivers. When you see up close how and why he's taken this approach you will understand. He will have a pair at the CES, and I'd encourage attendees to check it out. He'll be introducing some more affordable models as well.

I'm sure the Model 6 will be killer good. But again, at $98K, way out of my league.

Hi again Gladiator,
Could you pls take a close up photo of the cabinet? I want to see what I think is veneer, and you said is the actual stack...
Thanks!

Hi WSLam- Please send me your e-mail in a private message and I'll send you some close up photos. I don't think I can upload pictures directly form my hard drive to this thread.

Hi Gladiator. Thanks. Will PM you now. May not reply until tomorrow... 4am here...

I think we all paid too much.

I think we all paid too much.

I COMPLETELY AGREE.... I am "kind of looking" for new speakers but am quite put off by the prices... I have heard some of the best speakers on the Market and while indeed they are superior to my beloved Mag 20.1 they are not in ALL aspects superior.. It is, at the end, a matter of what one wants to spend but I will surmise we have been taken for a ride for too long and absurdly have tried to rationalize it or worse seemed to enjoy it... We find a 38K speaker priced too low we actually call it a 100K-class speaker!!!
So far the few speakers I would consider moving toward to replace the MG 20.1 are all over 85 K... (VS VR9, Dynaudio Evidence Master).. The sad part is that I may end up buying one of these ridiculously priced speakers because o the death of "normally" priced ultra-high performance speaker on the market (aside from the Magnepan 20.1, Soundlab Ultimate and the Vandersteen 5A to a name these) Hope that MTM or others help to stop the madness which unfortunately is killing the High Audio industry... If the Audio industry moved at that same pace as video, we would have present ultra-speakers at under 5k..
I have a mental block on the notion of acquiring 100K speakers and I am pulling for whomever comes with a sensibly priced speaker that matches or surpass the big boys...

I think we all paid too much.

This I think most of us will agree! =)

Frantz, If you are looking at 85k +, do not forget the Model 6.

Gladiator, still waiting for the photos!

Cheers, ws

Sorry for the delay WSLam. The Evolutions are very hard to photograph because of the high gloss finish. The flash or any light in the room tends to wash out the detail of the end grain. I have uploaded 800 x 600 photos here and sent you the high res shots. I hope they are to your satisfaction.

2 more.

HI Gladiator,
Thank you for your response.
For 38k, you do seem to be getting a 'lot' for the price.
When I commented on the finishing, it is because they clearly look like a veneered box. What is the cabinet made of? Somehow they do not look like wood to me. Probably some variations of MDF material?
And their website is so 'shady' .Looks like they have no distribution channel! No sensible business would go alone with one distributor (unless the distributor themselves is behind the speakers).
I know I am making a lot of potential allegations, but 38k is 'too good' a deal in the hi-fi world.
I hope you get to listen to the Magico soon! You should write to Alon Wolf and arrange. There is simply no going back for me after I listened to the Magico. In HK, the same dealer carries VS also carries Magico. I have listened to the 'big' VS, and frankly, the Magico Model 6 blew them all away *easily*. Mr. Wolf is doing something 'special'... what he is doing is a no-compromise, no corner-cutting approach in an stubborn-perfectionist way. The results are undeniable...

hi WS,

I trust all is well with you.

i read your comments a few months back about the Magico Mini. i am very happy for you that you have finally found a speaker that turns you on again to audio. i have heard the Mini at two or three audio shows (i can't remember which.....it's tough getting old :) ). i think the Mini is a very good speaker. it is certainly very low in distortion.

i read Valin's review and it makes sense relative to my listening experience. it is hard to get the full measure of any speaker at a show. as i recall they were using mid-level ss amps (Rowland?) each time i have heard them. my only quible with the Mini is that their quite low sensitivity (87db......and with a 4 ohm nominal load really more like 84db) means that my favorite amps won't work with the Mini in any reasonably sized room. for me personally this is a big deal.

i would love to hear the Mini with a top level high powered tube amp in a good room to really get it's measure.

regarding the Evolution Acoustics MM3; mine arrived Friday afternoon. actually only 2/3rds of them arrived......the top subs won't arrive until next week as one small piece was late being finished. the top subs will arrive in about a week.

due to the Dec 14th windstorm here in Seattle i was without power and internet for 8 days......we have house guests here for the Holiday's and a big dinner on Christmas......so i have been running around trying to get things done. i did uncrate the MM3's on Friday night and listen......then Saturday morning for a couple hours and a bit today.

a bit of background. my good friend Jonathan has been working on this speaker design for 5 years. he has had some great help along the way but his vision and listening sensibilities are embodied in this design. for the last three years every time i traveled to Portland i would hear the 'latest version' on his 'trial horse'. he was getting some amazing sound but it was not a finished product. it did things i had never heard any speaker do but also had 'issues'. then in August i was in San Diego for business and was able to Visit Kevin Malmgren as he was working on 'voicing' the raw cabinet. i saw the inner construction prior to finishing.

yes, the cabinet is made of 'glued toigether' thin layers of birch plywood with some methods i am not at liberty to discuss. in some areas the cabinets are 6 inches thick. the finish is applied directly to the side profile of the plywood layers. the attachment system of the sections is very sophisticated. (the sound i heard there blew me away as much as hearing a single speaker can do that).

i have owned some very expensive speakers and been around many others. the Evolution Acoustics is as well constructed and finished as any i have seen. the layered-sectioned approach was used in my Kharma Exquistes; the MM3 are IMHO better constructed than that legendary speaker. i had replaced a few ceramic mid-range drivers in the Kharma's so i was familiar with what it looked like inside.

if the MM3 was priced at $125,000 it would not be any more overpriced than ANY other $125,000 speaker. not to say ANY speaker is really worth that kind of money. anyone that is buying this speaker at $38,000 should consider themselves lucky. maybe if Jonathan priced it at $90k it would get more respect. i know his vision was to make the best speaker he could make and price it where real people could buy it. maybe distribution is limited but the price/value here is off the chart.

how do the Magico Mini and Evolution Acoustics MM3 compare? hard to say. i will never hear the Mini on 100 watt solid state or 50 watt tubes.......which the MM3 can easily prosper on. my one concern was whether a single darTZeel NHB-108 stereo amp could comfortably handle the MM3 in my 21' x 29' x 11' well damped room. i have my answer; not a problem at all.

as far as lack of distortion the MM3 is quite similar.....at least.

i likely prefer the Accuton ceramic mid-range to a metal cone mid-range......and the Mini uses the same tweeter as my VR9's......i think i like the ribbon better.

of course, the MM3 is -3db at 10hz and -6db at 7hz, the Mini is -3db at 40hz (both manufacturer's specs).

i had extremely high expectations for the MM3. i had heard it during it's development and at RMAF. it sounded great in Denver but the room and set-up choices were not supportive of any definative conclusion.

i am not ready to go too far just yet; but i can say the MM3 has so far......with less than 24 hours on it and not even remotely dialed in......exceeded my lofty expectations.

so far........i have heard nothing that would be a conflict with Gladiator's comments......my overall impresion is one of luck to have such an amazing speaker in my room.

the MM3 (or 2/3rds of it anyway) loves my room.

added note; WS....i know you use to travel to Vancover BC occasionally; next time you do it would be a short drive down here to my room to hear the MM3's.......and i would enjoy meeting you personally. we have had lots of communications over the years.

Hi Gladiator, Thank you for the photos! I received them via email as well. I already replied. I will repost what I wrote just to keep this thread complete.

Thank you so much for the photos! The speakers do indeed look quite good up close! It does look like you are getting a LOT of speakers for the price! I would say 38k must be the 'wholesale' price! I have listened to Kharma speakers on several occasions and the ceramic
drivers left a lasting impression on me.

If I am not mistaken, the ribbon tweeter is Aurum Cantus, and they are about $200 each! I can't identify the 15in woofers though. Anyway, they look great! and you are right, what matters most is that we all enjoy our purchases. Even if they sell the Evolution to HK, there's no way I could physically accommodate them! In fact, Alon Wolf told me that the first pair of Mini was commissioned for Hong Kong due to our expensive living space (the most expensive residential land price in the world is now HK. (about US$5500 per sq ft))

Mike! Have not emailed you for quite some time! I actually did try to email you but never heard from you. Did you change your email address (PM me if you did).

Anyway, thank you for sharing about the MM3. Given I have not heard the MM3, there's no way for me to give any credible comments. I can only go by what I can see online. I know the MM3 is a lot for the money. Hopefully they will one day make it to HK.

Hi again Mike,
Yes, if I go to Vancouver next time, I will definitely make the extra trip to come visit you! Your room looks AMAZING and I have 'concluded' that the room is really the biggest component of all!
FYI, the Magico Mini aren't actually that difficult to drive. 100W SS is really fine. Magico Mini is one that prefers quality rather then quantity. That's how they are designed to begin with. Less could be more.

btw, how does the MM3 work in terms of crossover?

I have been evaluating possible options for a balls to the wall 11.1 (sdds like)surround system using either the Goldmund or Tact audio stuff.

My requirement due to the Torus screen is controlloed directivity using D'appolito configs, these speakers fit that requirement very well. Even the MM2 makes an ideal triple center (LC,C,RC).

Having found out about these speakers, specially Mike's endorsement made me make these sketches.


http://cineramax.com/images/Cinema-smallest.jpg

Here the room width of 15.5 is a limitation having the speaker so close to the wall. Is that correct? Is there any way it COULD work?

http://cineramax.com/images/Helene-Screen-EVOLUTION.jpg


Jonathan will build the MMones in a side mount wall version with a flat back.

http://cineramax.com/images/MM-Surrounds.jpg

Frantz, If you are looking at 85k +, do not forget the Model 6.

Gladiator, still waiting for the photos!

Cheers, ws


Hi

I am not necessarily "looking" at 85K plus.. unless that it where the level of performance I am lookimng for ONLY reside and I would not like to believe that.

I am lookling for a speaker that would truly outperform the MG 20.1 in a ll areas and at a decent price.. The MTM, if it is as good as I have been reading here, then I may have found the ticket.... and again people stop posting that it is a normal price for speakers to be 100K.. It is not. It denotes an absurd pricing structure which will ultimately (if it has not done it already) destroy the High End Audio Industry.. The MTM may well prefigure a new, healthier trend

Merry Christmas to all! :D

I don't think you would need any subs with that setup Cinermax! :eek: I think the MM3s could work that close to the side wall, but with any speaker, they would sound best with some space to the rear and sides. The MM3s have a wonderfully wide soundstage (if it's on the recording) and will image way outside the boundary of the speaker so you will probably lose some of that. Clarity and dynamics are simply unreal with the MM3s and I know they would playback movie soundtracks with uncanny realism. I want the address of the client who gets that setup.

Frantz- I really think the MM3 can deliver the performance you are looking for at a somewhat "sane" price. If you are ever in NYC send me a PM and you are welcome to stop by and have a listen for yourself.

Mike- Congratulations! You are in for a real treat. I'm probably at around 300 hrs of playing time and they are really starting to open up nicely. Bass has extended even deeper and the highs are more open and smooth. The sound is truly amazing- it just sounds so "right" to my ears.

I think you will find when you add the top woofer section the presentation will just become more enveloping with a greater sense of ease and dynamics. I'm still in disbelief that four 15" drivers can portray the bass with such depth, detail, and visceral impact yet give NO hint that it's coming from the speaker. I was prepared for deep and impactful bass at the expense of some slowness, overhang and localization- simply not the case. I'm really looking forward to reading additional comments from you. Simply sit back and enjoy!

WSLam- I'm happy the photos were able to show you the detail of the MM3 cabinet. In addition to the horizontal stacking, don't forget the absolutely gorgeous radiused cabinets. The whole speaker is only 9 inches wide in the back (even the top sections) and the front "side" of the mids and tweeter cabinet are also radiused tightly to the baffle of the driver. Definitely not a veneered square speaker "box". Each section is also "acoustically" isolated from the other as each speaker has three sections ingeniously fastened together to make a single speaker. I hope one day you have the opportunity to hear them. In the meanwhile- keep enjoying those Minis- that's all that counts!

Gladiator

Beautiful speakers. Very impressive room.

Peter

Without doing research does Tact audio allow for the extra pair of speakers across the front. Any other audio processors doing the same.

Thanks!

Does Tact audio allow for the extra pair of speakers across the front. Any other audio processors doing the same.

Thanks!

Absolutely, up to 12 channels on the TCS Mk3 (which is hdmi 1.3 for audio 2in 1 out).

Hence my 11.1 design. Also Goldmund has the capability on the $20K Mimesis 30. The Halcro could do it too but not with 6 surrounds.

If you see the speaker array the speakers are carefully "aimed away from the screen" to eliminate unwanted reflections.

The tact has autoequalization which in this case is required.

Ok I found a side shot. The system looks a bit front heavy.:)

http://cineramax.com/images/Cine-Evl-Ex-Elevat-sml.jpg

http://cineramax.com/images/Amp-rack.jpg http://cineramax.com/images/Source-Rack.jpg

All digital sources , the surround, and power dac's would be clocked by the rubidium master clock.

Hi Gladiator, Mike -

Thanks for posting your impressions of these speakers, I've been reading here and on Audiogon....

I have to say that at this point I'm living vicariously through you guys. I've had a pair of MM2's on order since early this year; heard the protos at Jonathan's, heard the finished speakers at RMAF. And for you you say that they are better than at the show .... that is really saying something. I was quite impressed with the sound there.

Let's just say my anticipation is running very high right now :D

I'd sure love to hear more details, especially about the adjustability, and what you are able to achieve with it.

Mike, thanks for turning me onto these speakers early in the game.....

Take care, and post more!!

paul

Paul , How much for the MM2's? List.

Gladiator

Beautiful speakers. Very impressive room.

Peter

Without doing research does Tact audio allow for the extra pair of speakers across the front. Any other audio processors doing the same.

Thanks!

Thank you Alan.

Paul- I wrote a lengthy response for you and somehow it got lost after I hit "preview post". Sorry. In any event, the MM2s were a wise choice and will be worth the wait. The controls are extensive and effective and allow for perfect personal fine tuning. I have never heard a more complete and coherent sound. I still have to install the spikes and do some final adjustments on the controls. The speakers are still breaking in and the sounds continues to become more open and refined. It's so much fun to listen to my favorite recordings again played through the MM3s.


Cinermax- The MM2s are $28K list. You still get the powered 15" and all the controls plus the ability to add the top 15" cabinet at a later time.

Paul , How much for the MM2's? List.

my understanding is that the MM2 has an MSRP of $28,000 plus shipping (at the moment)......but i could be wrong.

BTW, regarding your concept of an array of 5 MM3's placed in an arc across the front of a room; my opinion is that the comb filtering that would result from all those drivers in so similar an angle would really make an acoustical mess. it does look cool though (nice job with the modeling). IMHO two MM3's would be much better. typically a center channel is less than ideal for most music (although for dialogue it likely justifies the negatives). when i do multi-channel i will use a 'phantom center' instead of an actual center channel speaker ("first, do no wrong").

regarding using the Kharma Exquisite side speakers; i would prefer an Evolution MM1 as i prefer the ribbon tweeter of the MM1 to the diamond in the Exquiste. i had the Midi Exquisite's with that same diamond tweeter and same ceramic mid-range which does not hold a candle to the MM1 (even though i like it and it costs twice as much).

i will try to make a few more comments regarding the MM3 'soon'. i have been very busy and have not done much listening yet. what listening impressions i have so far fall into the 'so over the top as to be almost embarassing to relate' catagory.

also i have about 60 unanswered e-mails from the last 2 weeks from my power/internet outage and then Holiday complications.

why does every damn thing need to happen at the same damn time?

Thanks Mike , you know I highly value your opinion. The primary purpose of this room is multichennel audio for film and music.

While phantom centers certainly worked in 4 x 3 aspect ratio screens, and certainly some 16 x9 aspect ratio implementation, it quite frankly will not work on 2.35 constant height setups. These setups even leave a huge gap between the center and mains.

My solution is the same as SDDS.

http://cineramax.com/images/5-SPEAKERS.jpg Bob Stuart spent two years researching this and he was about to implement it on the MDT systems, until he decided that he wanted instead to get into the recurring revenue business of MLP. Or for the flip view "he decided to give us a superior lossless format".

Since a perforated screen is too much of a visual price to pay I use TORUS screens THE VERY ULTIMATE for anamorphic setups.

While a calculated risk, there would be selective active steering coming from the TACT, or GOLDMUND, or even HALCRO processors. This steering would ameliorate the comb filtering effects. Also extreme damping in the areas around the speakers would help a bit.

I don't know. If I don't try it, who will? I have been itching to do this type of setup for 9 years now. The technology is finally ripe. And I may have the right patron.

You are absolutely right about the surrounds, if I go this route I would ask them to build a modified shallow profile MM1 for wall mount.

So it goes that as you were writing your suggestion, I was sketching the surround speakers:

http://cineramax.com/images/MM-Surrounds.jpg Now if they would only build them I would have my dream system. Thanks again.

Could someone post a picture (or 2) of the rear of the MM3. Would like to see how things connect back there.

Thanks in advance.

Cineramex,

my first high end gear back in 1994 was a Meridian 563 DAC and 500 transport....so i respect what Bob Stewart has done. his decision to digitize all sources with his preamps effectively eliminated his gear from my 2-channel consideration.

his approach to studio design may work when you use DSP to steer sources on a pro-audio mixing level. but for consumer sources (2-channel, 5.1, 7.1) and using speakers designed as stereo pairs with dispersion patterns appropriate for that use i would be surprised if it was effective. the complications of effectively taking a 5.1 or 7.1 source and then expanding it to more channels would make it less than likely to succeed.

i would assume that the speakers being used at the SDDS installation are designed with very narrow dispersion patterns to create highly focused soundscapes to be recorded into a consumer format or a format for commercial theaters where you have a very wide audience.

IMHO i can get better sound in a smaller 'home' environment than any commercial theatre can. trying to duplicate sonic performance of a huge commercial theater to me is not a good goal to have.....not to say that some would not want it. commercial theaters do sound 'big'......but they lose much of the detail and nuance of a smaller environment.

i do admire and respect your courage to try such a project; but if it was my 'nickel i would not spend it.

Mike :

I understand your skepticism. I am nonetheless going to try pitch it, the dispersion pattern is obviously controlled vertically (what I need for the Torus). Jonathan is very excited about the concept and he assured me that it WILL Work, he is also game to building the above depicted surrounds. Cool eh? Well if can line up all my ducks, and implement it, and it works,(lots of if's) i'll invite you and Frank for a listen. Thanks for your input.

Hi Gladiator, Mike -

Thanks for posting your impressions of these speakers, I've been reading here and on Audiogon....

I have to say that at this point I'm living vicariously through you guys. I've had a pair of MM2's on order since early this year; heard the protos at Jonathan's, heard the finished speakers at RMAF. And for you you say that they are better than at the show .... that is really saying something. I was quite impressed with the sound there.

Let's just say my anticipation is running very high right now :D

I'd sure love to hear more details, especially about the adjustability, and what you are able to achieve with it.

Mike, thanks for turning me onto these speakers early in the game.....

Take care, and post more!!

paul

Paul,

I am exactly in the same situation you are. I've been salivating reading and googling over the pictures and reviews. Can't wait for my MMtwo and matching horizontal MM center channel to arrive.

Glenn

Glenn! I spiked the speakers today and to quote Mike L the sound was "'so over the top as to be almost embarrassing to relate" category. For me it really is hard to put into words how the good the sound is. I'm sure Mike will convey much better than me how over the top these speakers are. I think you made a very wise choice in Denver ;)

I didn't use the stock straight 3/8 inch threaded spike that comes with the speaker and instead used a massive and beautiful spike form Audio Points, the 2.0AP-1C1. (http://www.starsoundtechnologies.com/2widebody.HTML) Not sure if there is a sonic difference, but I think this spike matches the quality of the MM3 really well. Me and my friend were shocked at the level of improvement after we installed the spikes.

I'll try to get some pictures of the rear of the speakers posted.

Glenn! I spiked the speakers today and to quote Mike L the sound was "'so over the top as to be almost embarrassing to relate" category. For me it really is hard to put into words how the good the sound is. I'm sure Mike will convey much better than me how over the top these speakers are. I think you made a very wise choice in Denver ;)

I didn't use the stock straight 3/8 inch threaded spike that comes with the speaker and instead used a massive and beautiful spike form Audio Points, the 2.0AP-1C1. (http://www.starsoundtechnologies.com/2widebody.HTML) Not sure if there is a sonic difference, but I think this spike matches the quality of the MM3 really well. Me and my friend were shocked at the level of improvement after we installed the spikes.

I'll try to get some pictures of the rear of the speakers posted.

i spiked mine on Sunday evening......ask Jonathan what i said to him then.

spiking was like getting a whole new set of speakers. when you have such high levels of information and a complete lack of distortion the effect of any tweak is magnified. spiking any speaker pays benefits. but when the MM3 has a non-linerarity (a flexible base) it will tell you that like anything else it is fed. there is no place to hide.

OTOH when it is grounded you get all the information that might mean.

precision can be both good and bad.

the effect of the spiking was to 'clean things up'. spaciality dramatically improved as the ambient information was clarified. air around instruments became palitable. layers of information became evidant as well as an organic physicality.

microdynamics and textural nuance increased.

transient snap and bass articulation not only increased but there was also an improvement of naturalness and ease. the music just flowed better and became more involving.

overall just a more profound 'there-ness' and immediacey.

Glenn - Glad to know I'm not the only one out here googling for MM3/MM2 every day :)

Gladiator, Mike, thanks for your updates, sure is stoking the fires.....guess I'd better call Jonathan and ask about production schedule and delivery dates again.

Gladiator, it sounds like your room is pretty similar in size to mine, you've said 17 x 21. I'm wondering where you ended up in position, of speakers and listening chair. I did see you had some numbers on your system on Audiogon, but the numbers didn't quite add up to a 21' room (or maybe it is just too late for me to add ;) )

Mike, I know your room is a lot bigger/deeper, but I am curious about how far back you are sitting from the speakers. Also wondering if you find that they work best in the same spot as the VR9's -- in other words is your placement really room dependent, and therefore fixed, or does it change with the speakers?

Happy listening!

paul

Great description Mike.

Paul- The measurements are pretty much as I described. I'm measuring diagonally to my ears at the listening chair from the speakers, hence the longer measurement that doesn't quite add up linearly with the overall dimensions of the room. My speakers are definitely in the sweet spot in my room. The sound is beyond my wildest imagination. :)

Thanks, Gladiator, it was the diagonal measurement that threw me.

I played a little with speaker position last night. I had not pulled the speakers quite that far into the room (~6'). I also moved my listening set forward to he 38% spot. This results in being a little closer to the speakers than I had been previously, and therefore my questions.....

By ear, I think it evened out my bass response a little. I'll have to do some measurements today.

paul

Glenn! I spiked the speakers today and to quote Mike L the sound was "'so over the top as to be almost embarrassing to relate" category. For me it really is hard to put into words how the good the sound is. I'm sure Mike will convey much better than me how over the top these speakers are. I think you made a very wise choice in Denver ;)

I didn't use the stock straight 3/8 inch threaded spike that comes with the speaker and instead used a massive and beautiful spike form Audio Points, the 2.0AP-1C1. (http://www.starsoundtechnologies.com/2widebody.HTML) Not sure if there is a sonic difference, but I think this spike matches the quality of the MM3 really well. Me and my friend were shocked at the level of improvement after we installed the spikes.

I'll try to get some pictures of the rear of the speakers posted.

I'm definitely glad I made the trip out to RMAF, even if it was only for a day to listen to the MM3's... I know patience is a virtue but the anticipation is painful!! I should offer to go down to san diego and be Kevin's little elf helper...

Mike/Gladiator, I wondering if using some GPA Apex feet might be another alternative to the stock spikes? I have 2 spare sets (of 3) of Apex feet lying around with levelers if you guys want to try it out....

Glenn

Glenn- Some care has to be put into which spikes are chosen if you decide try something other than the stock spikes. Most importantly the tweeter height should be 37" off the ground for proper time alignment. The stock spikes are 2 inches long and have a 3/8th inch thread. The manual calls for setting the tightening nut on the spike about halfway up, so about 1 inch is threaded into the speaker, raising the speaker off the gound about an inch. With all four spikes perfectly level, this raises the tweeter height to 37" off the ground and provides perfect time alignment for a listening position ear height of between 33" and 41" off the ground.

The spike must also have an extremely strong thread as the speaker will be tilted on its side when installing the spikes. This will put a lot of force on the two threaded spikes when the other two spikes are being installed.

The Audio Point spikes I chose are extremely strong and can easily handle the weight of the MM3. They are also 3 inches long (1 inch of thread and 2 inches of "Audio Point" body). For the Audio Point to be effective, it must be fully threaded in so the body of the Audio Point rests against the speaker cabinet. The stock spikes are just two inches of thread except for the last 1/4 inch which is the "spike".

The 3 inch length worked perfect for me as approximately 3/4" of the Audio Point penetrated my carpet and carpet pad to hit the concrete slab below. As a result the tweeter height is exactly 37 1/4" off the floor. My listening chair height is 37" so the 1/4" is irrelevant.

Again, the sound is mind blowing after doing this. How much of the "improvement" is because of the Audio Point versus the stock spike is unknown. I only plan on tilting these speakers ONCE as they are just too damn heavy and I'm not taking any chances. ;)

Just keep the above in mind when thinking of an alternative to the stock spikes. The stock spikes I'm sure are plenty good, but I just couldn't leave well enough alone as usual :D . I'm extremely happy with the way the Audio Points look on the speaker and the improvement in sound they offered. YMMV.

I'll post a picture of the Audio Points on the speaker.

BTW- Any pain and suffering you are experiencing while waiting will be supplanted with absolute joy and unlimited listening pleasure once they arrive. Hang in there! :)

Frank

Glenn - Glad to know I'm not the only one out here googling for MM3/MM2 every day :)

Gladiator, Mike, thanks for your updates, sure is stoking the fires.....guess I'd better call Jonathan and ask about production schedule and delivery dates again.

Gladiator, it sounds like your room is pretty similar in size to mine, you've said 17 x 21. I'm wondering where you ended up in position, of speakers and listening chair. I did see you had some numbers on your system on Audiogon, but the numbers didn't quite add up to a 21' room (or maybe it is just too late for me to add ;) )

Mike, I know your room is a lot bigger/deeper, but I am curious about how far back you are sitting from the speakers. Also wondering if you find that they work best in the same spot as the VR9's -- in other words is your placement really room dependent, and therefore fixed, or does it change with the speakers?

Happy listening!

paul

Paul,

when i got my loaner Von Schweikert VR7SE speakers in August i asked Kevin Malmgren (who designed the 7SE, the VR9SE....as well as the final version of the MM3) where i should put them in my room. he suggested a much wider separation (14' 6" tweeter to tweeter) than i had had my VR9SE's (10'6" tweeter to tweeter). this is in my 21' wide x 29' long room. Kevin also always suggests an equalateral triangle where ear to tweeter = tweeter to tweeter. he suggested 9' 6" from the wall behind the speakers to the front of the tweeter.

moving the VR7's that wide was off putting initially particularly from a visual standpoint.......but i have come to be addicted to the huge and deep soundstage i now enjoy and in my room i get great center fill, depth and layering. Kevin suggested that that would also be ideal for the MM3's, so that is where they are too.....and so far they sound marvelous.

the VR7's are a bit light in the bass in my room and since they were temporary i never tried other locations. with the MM3 (or to be precise...2/3rds of the MM3) i get much better bass....deeper, more articulate, and with better snap and slam. but.....i am not going to move the speakers around until i get the top subwoofer sections (which hopefully will be tomorrow night).

my gut tells me that the MM3's will stay approximately where they are.

so the tweeters are 9'6" forward of the wall behind the speakers, they are 14'6" apart, and my 'ear' position is about 7' from the wall behind where i sit.

one additional note regarding seating height. if you sit close to the MM3 (or MM2 or MM1 for that matter)...say tweeter to ear distance of less than 10 feet......you do need to be at approx 37" +or- 2" or adjust the angle of the speaker up or down. if you are farther than approx 10' listening distance then height is much less an issue as the listening cone expands.

with any D'Appolito speaker design (where you have a central tweeter with equal driver compliment top and bottom) you don't have a single point source.....in other words you are using two mid-range drivers to 'sum' the same signal. therefore you will have a smaller sweet spot than a single driver. this is why the MM3 is relatively height sensitive.

Glad to hear that wide separation is working for you. I thought that was one of the problems at the show, although the untreated room was probably contributing. They were too far apart and lacking the center focus, depth, and layering which you described and is exactly what I'm hearing. There was also no soundstaging or imaging outside the boundry of the speaker. Are you getting a soundstage and imaging past the speaker itself (if it's on the recording)? My are imaging well outside and behind the boundry of the speaker when it's on the recording.

Here is a picture of one of the Audio Points.

http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1167438608.jpg

Hi guys - thanks for the positioning info, very interesting. Jonathan told me once that these like to be wide, and toed in quite a bit. Good to know that works for you.....

Regarding spikes: Mike I know you have a hardwood floor as I do. Are you using cups of some kind to hold the spikes? How do you tilt these monsters up (onto two spikes) without ruining the floor? Are you using stock spikes, or did you upgrade as Frank did?

thanks,

paul

Hi guys - thanks for the positioning info, very interesting. Jonathan told me once that these like to be wide, and toed in quite a bit. Good to know that works for you.....

Regarding spikes: Mike I know you have a hardwood floor as I do. Are you using cups of some kind to hold the spikes? How do you tilt these monsters up (onto two spikes) without ruining the floor? Are you using stock spikes, or did you upgrade as Frank did?

thanks,

paul

Paul,

i have a set of stainless steel pads with dimples in the middle that i use under my spikes on my hardwood floor. a friend (Bob Crump) made them for me as a 'room warming' present a couple of years ago. he had them 'tumbled' to get rid of any sharp edges. these pads allow me to slide the speakers in very small increments.....which is ideal for precise positioning and far superior to maddening positioning challenges with spikes on carpets and yet yields better sonic results (assuming the subfloor (mine is concrete) is solid). i can simply go over to the MM3, set my lower leg firmly next to the MM3, and gently 'nudge' the speaker an 1/8th or 1/4th of an inch one way or the other. then go back and listen and then quickly change it again. imagine how difficult it would be to move spiked speakers around on carpet. it is particularly effective for setting precise toe-in or out.

i would think that most machine shops could easily make you a set of stainless steel pads. remember to have them tumbled so they won't have any sharp edges. and if your floor is not solid or has some uneven spots don't try to slide the speakers or you might end up with some bad damage.

regarding spike 'upgrades'.......changing from stainless to brass will be different but not necessarily better. i will admit that the brass ones look better and the tip shape may yield advantages. when dealing with a wood subfloor under carpet the more shallow point of Frank's spikes will likely be easier to deal with than the sharper spikes supplied with the MM3's.

my guess is that a stainless steel spike into a stainless steel threaded hole is hard to beat as far as 'grounding'...brass will have a slightly 'softer' sound. also, for me the brass spikes might be harmed by my stainless pads.

i do have a spare set of Grand Prix Audio Apex feet that at some point i may try.....but i am very concerned about such a tall narrow 550 pound speaker not being stable on the Apex footers.

to install the spikes i simply had my son tilt the speaker (at that point it was an MM2) a bit to one side and slipped a spare piece of carpet underneath. he then tilted/pivoted the speaker on the carpet and raised it a few inches; i inserted the spikes and set them on the stainless pads. my son then went around to the other side and tilted the speakers up onto the spikes, i slid the carpet out from under the other side and installed the spikes and the pads. we then got a level and leveled the speaker.

then last night a friend and myself unpacked the top subwoofers and without even unspikeing or moving the speaker (in MM2 configuration) set the top subwoofer onto the MM2.......which now is the MM3. the crates for the top subwoofers were in the back of my Honda Ridgeline......i got home at 6pm....we unloaded the crates, cleared out the room for space to work, moved the crates into the room, uncrated the subs, staged the top subs on one of the crates (with a piece of carpet on top of the crate), set some rolled up towels on the top of the MM2, inserted the guidepins, and quickly placed the top subs onto the MM2. it took just a minute to line it up, then remove the towels while lowering the top sub onto the MM2. we then cleared out the crates, put back the area rug and chairs......and by 6:45 we were listening to the MM3......45 minutes with two people (and i'm a whimp).

my opinion is that the best approach to installing MM3's would be to first install the MM2 and then lift the top sub onto the MM2 as a separate step. then two 'normal' people can do it and you don't put the stress onto the attachment system that lifting the whole MM3 at once does.....or need three or four people. since the Top sub has no amplifier it is somewhat lighter. the trick here is using one of the crates set on end with a piece of carpet protecting the bottom of the top sub. then you only need to lift the top sub another foot or so from right next to it.

Here's a question for you guys (Mike, Gladiator, OB, et al):

Is there a point at which the sheer weight of a loudspeaker negates or at least equals the "improvement" sonically that is realized by spiking?

I'm talking speakers that weigh > 1000 lbs. each, you know; stuff like the X2s, or VR11s, those big Magicos, or some of the bigger CATs that I've posted pictures of in the past.

The conversation regarding spiking the MM3s led me to wonder- especially you guys talking about having hardwod floors.

I'm curious to know what your experience has been.

Dan

Here's a question for you guys (Mike, Gladiator, OB, et al):

Is there a point at which the sheer weight of a loudspeaker negates or at least equals the "improvement" sonically that is realized by spiking?

I'm talking speakers that weigh > 1000 lbs. each, you know; stuff like the X2s, or VR11s, those big Magicos, or some of the bigger CATs that I've posted pictures of in the past.

The conversation regarding spiking the MM3s led me to wonder- especially you guys talking about having hardwod floors.

I'm curious to know what your experience has been.

Dan

i've owned speakers weighing 565 pounds (Kharma Exquisites), 375 pounds (VR7SE---actually on loan), and 550 pounds (these MM3's). i've also owned Von Schweikert VR9SE's (375 pounds), which come with very high quality castors. i have on order the VR11SE (which are still not yet begun to be built) which weigh 750 pounds and come with castors.

my opinion is that the VR9 and VR11 would both improve quite a bit with spikes.

in my experience spikes always are preferrable to any other floor interface. the reason is simple if initially counterintuative. music is air vibrations. if the speaker cabinet is not stationary on a micro-vibration level the speaker driver will not be solidly stationary for the music waveform to be launched in a linear fashion. the sound will be 'blurred' to some degree. this blurring will particularly affect the focus and depth perception of the soundstage. spikeing a speaker is like taking a very high quality lens and focusing it perfectly.

the biggest varible in the degree of benefit to spikeing is level of detail that a speaker is capable of. if a speaker is not detailed it would be like trying to focus through a blurred window.

the second most significant issue on the benefit of spikeing is the level of inertness of the cabinet along with a quality driver mounting scheme.

weight will somewhat dampen vibration but actually a heavier speaker will store more energy and take longer to stop moving unless it is grounded. that damn inirtia thing rearing it's head again.

i have had many reminders of how much spikeing can effect things. i have bought new speakers a couple times after having another speaker for 2 or 3 years. i will listen to the new speaker for awhile and assume i have it all dialed in. then i spike it. the difference is so profound that i need to re-dial it in.

there is one better solution than spikeing; and that would be setting the speaker on some sort of active isolation device. a product such as a Halyconics Isolation platform.

http://www.halcyonics.de/en/products/sandwich.php

spikes will still transfer earth tremors (there are always earth tremors...you just need something sensitive enough to tell you about it...speakers, turntables) and music feedback from the floor; an active isolation platform would totally isolate things. someday i will try one.

I do agree about spiking but so also the use of decouplers. To wit, my previous speakers X-1 Grand Slamm lll's were initially on spikes and then I placed the spiked speakers each on 4 Aurios Pro MIb's and found the effect create better bass as well as (perhaps) a somewhat deeper soundstage

According to the WA website, your X-2s are tipping the scales at 750 each- is that about what the X-1s weighed as well?

I guess my question was taking this concept to the point of absurdity: as in, your speakers weigh 1 ton to 2+ tons each. When you're talking about weights like that, assuming you can find spikes that will sustain that much (and of course your subfloor can)- do you think that there would still be benefit?

At what point to speakers just become too heavy to spike?

Dan

(not trying to hijack the thread, just had my curiosity piqued)

The X-1's weighed ~30 lbs less (each speaker)

As for the spikes, they come supplied with the speakers so you can be certain that the spikes support the weight without difficulty---so also with the Aurios

Congratulations to the guys who have these MM1/MM2/MM3s! They are beautiful to my eye. They remind me of the Amati Homage. Apparently they also sound even better than they look. I will definitely have to seek them out at the next opportunity. I am impressed that they didn't take the $100k+ approach to pricing if they can make good money where they are. Maybe there is hope for honestly-priced high end audio yet. :)

Here is a partial picture of the rear of the MM3-
The entire rear of the speaker is only 9 inches wide. The rear tapers down from its widest point of 18 inches on the top and bottom bass cabinets.


http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1168037432.jpg

If I am not mistaken, the ribbon tweeter is Aurum Cantus, and they are about $200 each! I can't identify the 15in woofers though. Anyway, they look great! and you are right, what matters most is that we all enjoy our purchases. Even if they sell the Evolution to HK, there's no way I could physically accommodate them! In fact, Alon Wolf told me that the first pair of Mini was commissioned for Hong Kong due to our expensive living space (the most expensive residential land price in the world is now HK. (about US$5500 per sq ft))

Hi

Might be the Aurum Cantus G1 Ribbon are around $350 each, although I'm inclined to agree with you that it maybe the G3 which is around $200. If Gladiator took a close up photo then I'd definitely be able to tell which. The Aurum Cantus Ribbons have an enviable reputation but new drivers from the likes of RAAL and other strong ribbons such as those from Raven and Fountek are also very good.

The Mini uses the ATD titanium vapour mid/bass (about $600 each from madisound or it might have been e-speakers) and also the Scan R2904-7000 tweeter. I used that same tweeter in my last construction along with the ATC 3" dome mid, I found the Scan tweeter to be overpriced at $400 each. Scary as it sounds but there's a $35 Seas tweeter that measures better in many respects! The build and looks of the R2904 are great though.

I don't know how you guys can stomach spending this money! I guess I'm glad I build my own - there's a very good chance that they don't sound as good as the models being discussed here though ;) But then again I'm betting they not a million miles off and for much less.

I'm currently working away on an WMTMW design featuring the RAAL 140-15d ribbon and a pair of Accuton C90-T6 midranges, these Accuton drivers may or may not be ones featured in the MM3. Having said that the efficiency rating of the MM3 suggests that its likely given that all the other Accuton mids are pretty low sensitivity - the C90-T6 is 93dB/2.83v/1m which with MTM coupling would rise to 95/96dB through the midrange but depending on where you cross to the bass then it could be as little as 91/92dB after baffle step compensation.

Anyway enjoy the speakers guys!

Bugger... accidentally deleted whilst correcting a detail in my original post.

Can't be bothered to type it all out again.

Where can one go to hear these speakers (besides the Rocky Mountain show). I don't know what they sound like but they are drop dead gorgeous !! Do they have a dealer network? Where are they made?

Where can one go to hear these speakers (besides the Rocky Mountain show). I don't know what they sound like but they are drop dead gorgeous !! Do they have a dealer network? Where are they made?

There are only a couple of pairs out in the "field" right now, so outisde of RMAF it may indeed be tough to hear a pair. If you are ever in the NYC area and want to hear them let me know. There will also be a dealer in PA getting the smaller MM2s shortly.

Mike L- if you catch this post how about some pictures and impressions? :D

http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/mikel/12_FT_6_INCH--SIDE.jpg

here they are 12 feet, 6 inches apart.

http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/mikel/12_FT__6_INCH.jpg

from behind the 'throne'

http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/mikel/MM3-FRONT.jpg

from the front

http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/mikel/MM3-SIDE.jpg

the side

http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/mikel/MM3-BACK.jpg

the back

very cool how they taper......beautiful lines in person.....my photo work is pitiful....please forgive me.

for the last 4 weeks i've had them 14 feet, 6 inches apart while they have been breaking in. this was where Kevin Malmgren recommeded i try them first. although very wide my room is 21 feet wide so no problem. it really imaged that wide apart but the intimacy and immediacy suffered. also, 14 feet wide caused me to sit that far away which lessened the sense of detail and dynamic involvement.

so today while i had some visitors i moved them to 12 feet, 6 inches apart......which i prefer so far. i had them tweaked for the wider spots so it will take me awhile to optimize all the bass settings (there are 5) for the new position.

these speakers are everything i expected and are a microscope for whatever you throw at them as well as being just great at 'music'.

so Mike will you be stuck buying the VS-11SE's?

Mike,

Are those walls behind the speakers made entirely out of cloth-covered acoustic panels? If so, what kind?

Mike,

Are those walls behind the speakers made entirely out of cloth-covered acoustic panels? If so, what kind?

yes; the fabric walls both on the side next to the speaker and in the back around the window is a false wall behind which is a very large, floor to ceiling bass trap. the fabric covers 1" Corning 703 semi-ridged fibreglass; which is nailed to studs. the fabric is stretched over birch frames and nailed with head-less nails to the studs.

on the walls behind the fabric walls is 2" Corning 703 semi ridged fibreglass attached to the inner wall. all the walls (and the entire ceiling) is cocooned inside a sandwidch of 5/8" sheetrock, 1/2" soundboard, and another layer of 5/8" sheetrock.

the entire ceiling is similar bass traps and there are bass traps in the rear corners and center.

if you want more detail here is an article i wrote a few years back regarding my room project;

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm

very cool how they taper......beautiful lines in person.....my photo work is pitiful....please forgive me

Mike,

You mean they look even better in person?! Wow!

VERY NICE - I hope you enjoy them.

Mike,
Congratulations. I'll bet they are fantastic.

Mike,

Your system never ceases to amaze. The concept that these MM3 are your "transitional" speakers is quite mind boggling.... are you still ordering the VR11s? Because what if the MM3 is truly more suited to your musical tastes...? Then you'd be saving yourself enough for a whole 'nother round of amplification/preamplfication upgrades x2.

Joey

if you want more detail here is an article i wrote a few years back regarding my room project

I was grinning ear to ear just reading about it. Your room would reveal more than most mastering rooms I know of. Thanks for sharing!

Extra bonus for planning for balanced power, too. Given that you run balanced interconnects, that will likely give you a nice drop in noise floor.

I was grinning ear to ear just reading about it. Your room would reveal more than most mastering rooms I know of. Thanks for sharing!

Extra bonus for planning for balanced power, too. Given that you run balanced interconnects, that will likely give you a nice drop in noise floor.

thanks; according to my room designer; most mastering studios listen in the very near-field to relatively bright pro monitors and so their rooms are less an issue.......and unfortunately you can hear the result on the recordings.....which are mastered with boomboxes, headphones, and car interiors in mind. maybe if they used a more 'acoustic soundfield' friendly room the recordings might be better.

at the moment i am actually using the darTZeel 'zeel' cables for the 8 meter cables from my pre to the amp......i sold my 7 meter set of XLR Valhalla. the 'zeel' cables use BNC connectors and the dart gear is designed to a perfect 50 ohm standard on both pre amd amp end. as the dart pre is battery powered the issue of noise is lessened.

i do still plan on the Equi=tech at some point.......i think it will lower my noise floor.....and allow me to use a generator or possibly battery UPS if i want to.

Mike,

Your system never ceases to amaze. The concept that these MM3 are your "transitional" speakers is quite mind boggling.... are you still ordering the VR11s? Because what if the MM3 is truly more suited to your musical tastes...? Then you'd be saving yourself enough for a whole 'nother round of amplification/preamplfication upgrades x2.

Joey

the 11's are still on order.......and i'm still in discovery phase with the MM3's.

there is no doubt that the MM3's are an amazing value. my intention is to not allow the $$$'s to influence my eventual direction.....but it is hard to ignore.

..You can see the tiny MINI construction photos here:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/magico/mini_2.html
..

That space, Peter's room, is absolutely awesome, grand! This is not your usual audiophile's loge de concierge.. I love the untidiness, the atmosphere, the potteries, the BAT amps.. even the Rockport looks OK in that space ...

Mike,

You mean they look even better in person?! Wow!

VERY NICE - I hope you enjoy them.

As I was ogling the pictures my wife walked in and noted that from the side-view they look like telephone handsets from the 70s!!! :eek: (You might actually be able to get telephone reception from mars with these babies)

She did concede that they were beautifully finished however. I'm sure they sound superb!

Congrats to you guys who own them.

Interestingly, I notice no-one mentions what type of music they listen to mainly (or maybe I missed the thread). I listen to mainly rock music and will be looking for a new pair of mains. These big bad boys are about at the upper limit of what I would consider. I'll probably just go with the big ATCs to match my current system but just curious about how these biggies sound with rock music, warts and all?

The Bogg

Hi Mike, you mentioned that you got 2/3rd's of your MM3's due to some delay, which would make them MM2's? If this is right, at that point, what was the difference in sound you heard while in MM2 configuration, as opposed to compared to when your top modules arrived? I ask because I'm thinking of ordering MM2's and maybe upgrading in the near future to the MM3's. This due to limitations in my budget. But, would like to know if making the MM2's into MM3's is worth while. Please let me know. Thanks!!

Hi Mike, you mentioned that you got 2/3rd's of your MM3's due to some delay, which would make them MM2's? If this is right, at that point, what was the difference in sound you heard while in MM2 configuration, as opposed to compared to when your top modules arrived? I ask because I'm thinking of ordering MM2's and maybe upgrading in the near future to the MM3's. This due to limitations in my budget. But, would like to know if making the MM2's into MM3's is worth while. Please let me know. Thanks!!

These speakers fascinate me. I love the way they look and I believe they can potentially sound amazing. What do you guys think of the above referenced question and have your opinions changed after living with them for a while? I know Mike and Frank have had some very nice speakers in their systems and I want to know if these are the best yet.

These speakers fascinate me. I love the way they look and I believe they can potentially sound amazing. What do you guys think of the above referenced question and have your opinions changed after living with them for a while? I know Mike and Frank have had some very nice speakers in their systems and I want to know if these are the best yet.

Jermmd and Luigi,

first, sorry Luigi for missing your question earlier. i don't check here on AVS as often as i should......so much video and HT stuff to sort thru.

the MM2's are very close to the MM3's.......in fact on a high % of music it is more a matter of slighly different than better or worse. there is mostly a slight improvement in bass dynamic ease and a slight increase in warmth......which means a slightly different crossover point for balance. you can run at a higher bass gain with two subs since the crossover is set slightly lower. when you go from MM2 to the MM3 you will get a speaker with slightly greater dynamic grip and sense of solidity.

Jermmd, i have now had the MM3's since Christmas......over 4 months. they are now fully broken in. there are aspects of speaker performance where i have heard a few speakers do this or that specific thing as well or slighly better. but overall; the MM3's do everything at the very highest level of performance. and as a total package; i have not heard anything like it.

there may be another speaker with mid-range clarity and detail in the ballpark of the MM3, but none that combine this with smooth seamless extended highs. the combination of mids and highs is unmatched in my experience.

the mid-bass/lower mid transition is the typically the weak point of large speakers; i have not heard that critical area for vocals done better than the MM3's. although the MM3's are very dynamic in the upper bass and lower mids i have heard speakers with more punch in this area. those speakers however are not as coherent as the MM3.

deep bass is tunable to tastes. it goes very deep and is very articulate. i know of speakers that can do greater macrodynamics in the deep bass......but not by much. again; the MM3's are quite dynamic.......and do acoustic bass as well as any speaker i have heard.

the MM3's have a very natural, sweet tonal flavor; assuming you supply it with the correct amplification and sources. they are as detailed as any speaker but still sweet. the combination of naturalness and detail is unique.

since they are an easy load you have a wide choice of amps. for such a large speaker they actually have a modest footprint and since they are sealed boxes are flexible as far as where you put them.

and once you dial them in they completely disappear.......if the recording allows it.

i have not seen a better built speaker, and beautiful too.

if the MM3's were $150k the pair......they would be no more overpriced than any other $150k speaker.

how do i feel? they are magnificent!

the best thing they do is make great music......all those 'bests' and 'as good as'.......mean nothing if they don't deliver that great sense of having real music there in your room.

there are many excellent speakers out there.....but none at any price i would rather have.

Mike,

That was very nicely written and exactly what I was looking for. I trust your ear and think these speakers may be "the end" in speakers. The MM2 may be a smaller, cheaper option with almost the same quality sound. It's definitely worth investigating although you and the manufacturer are probably the only people who could have compared the two. Maybe people will have a chance to compare them at one of the trade shows. I didn't hear about any comparisons made at Rocky Mountain.

Thank you for the excellent post.

Mike,

Are the VR11 still on order? Or are you satisfied with the MM3 enough to stop there?

Joey

Mike,

Are the VR11 still on order? Or are you satisfied with the MM3 enough to stop there?

Joey

hi Joey,

i have choosen the MM3's. my dealer will be selling the VR11's which were built for me.

no speaker does everything better than every other speaker; or even as well. no speaker is perfect for everyone.

i know there are aspects of the VR11 that i will always lust after to some degree. the combination of 4 woofers and 2 powered subwoofers in each speaker and still quite properly integrated allows for other-worldly bass dynamics. for a coherent speaker a totally unique level of macro-dynamics. and my room would have been perfect for them.

if the VR11's would have been delivered in 10 weeks as originally promised; instead of the 10 months they have taken.....they would be in my room now. no doubt i would have loved them.

OTOH i know my personal listening priorities are better served by the special musical qualities of the MM3's; their higher levels of coherence, detail and sweetness.......the smoother mid-tweeter and higher transparency. the VR11's are excellent at all these things too but not to the level of the MM3's.

i also spent a good deal less money on the MM3's, and was able to sell a set of Opus speaker cables and a dart amp......so a huge difference in out of pocket dollars. my wife is very happy.

finally;even though the VR9's and VR11's are well built and nice looking......the MM3's are really beautiful and elegant with their curves and rich layered wood cabinet......just a higher level of fit and finish.

i highly recommend the VR9SE and VR11SE. i cannot think of a weakness in either speaker.

it's funny how things work out sometimes.

as far as whether i will 'stop there'.......as i told OB, that is my intention.

however; forever is a long time........

as far as whether i will 'stop there'.......as i told OB, that is my intention.


;)

Only "diamonds are forever", Mike

Great to hear Mike! I figured after all the positive reviews/impressions you have gushed regarding the MM3, I knew you were going to stick with these guys.

Oh and you gotta love the money you saved.... WOW!!

What now? A Maserati?? LOL!

Anything else in your system that you're thinking of upgrading now that you freed up some of your audio budget?

O btw, I bought the Perfect Chair and am awaiting delivery! I first took notice of this chair from your pics back when you had the Kharmas.... so in essence, you are the reason for my Perfect Chair! I'm looking forward to adding this key component to my listening area.

Thanks, Mike!

Joey :)

;)

Only "diamonds are forever", Mike

Heh, I proved to my so that diamonds thermodynamically are not forever, but she wasn't interested. :p

Heh, I proved to my so that diamonds thermodynamically are not forever, but she wasn't interested. :p

Well, you can shatter or break them with a strong blow to the right area as well (thus, diamond cutting and shaping). Your SO might be more interested in that, especially if she thinks you are mentioning the topic to get her ring size. :D

Heh, I proved to my so that diamonds thermodynamically are not forever, but she wasn't interested. :p

Huh? :confused:

Huh? :confused:

so = 'significant other'.

btw, i was stumped too until QueueCumber responded and capitalized 'SO'.

us old married guys are sometimes slow on the uptake.

Sorry about the confusion guys :) I should have just spelled it as significant other rather than so.

QueueCumber: I gave her the whole rundown on the physical and chemical properties of diamond and why they are not forever from a Thermodynamics point of view (Diamond is not a thermodynamically stable form of carbon (graphite is), but its decomposition kinetics are very slow). She decided to take the less logical route on this and ended with the "I just like them" statement which is pretty unbeatable in my opinion. :D

Mike Lavigne: Congrats on your MM3 decision, they do look gorgeous! Of course, your room is quite the nice setup too!

Hi

Let us drop the diamonds reference.. I am certain we all go the point… I am interested in this speaker if only for the price. I am at the point where I will have to change my speakers to get to the next level. I tend to limit my purchases to a certain amount although I have broken this rule on a regular basis so this speaker will fit very well with this constraint.

I have heard Von Schweikert Speakers up to the VR5 which are phenomenal and soon will audition at length the VR7... I can only imagine what a 9 can do or a VR11 for that matter. I have also heard the Dynaudio Evidence Masters, they are amongst the best 5 speakers I have heard to date but they are around 100K retail. So are some of the other speakers I consider the best, not all mind you... I have heard both the X-2 and the MAXX-2. They are similar in sound and characteristics but the X-2 are better by a long shot. Are they worth almost three time the price? , I do not think so but if you are after the ultimate Wilson speakers and one of the best around, the X-2 is it.

Then comes the MM3.. it is priced at less than $50K and from the enthusiastic reports on this forum seems to be at the exalted level of the VR9 or VR11… My few questions and I will take the answers as subjective or opinions.. Where does it stand in the pantheon of great speakers? Is it at the level of speakers such as the Wilson X-2, Magico 6, Von Schweikert VR9 and 11, Dynaudio Evidence? Sharp eyes may have noted that I did not include the MAXX-2 it is excellent but I am not sure it is at the level of these aforementioned speakers IMHO.

QueueCumber: I gave her the whole rundown on the physical and chemical properties of diamond and why they are not forever from a Thermodynamics point of view (Diamond is not a thermodynamically stable form of carbon (graphite is), but its decomposition kinetics are very slow). She decided to take the less logical route on this and ended with the "I just like them" statement which is pretty unbeatable in my opinion. :D

Mine would have shut me out and started doing something else while I was still talking after the word "properties" in "physical and chemical properties." You are lucky she listened that long. :D I've gotten used to enjoying the sound of my own voice, for my own voice's sake. :p

Mike Lavigne: Definitely nice looking speakers, I hope I get a chance to hear those speakers around my area at some point. I've already mentioned how impressed I am by that room and equipment in a previous thread. I still wish I could have done a Rives level 3 instead of a level 2, but I couldn't build from scratch at this point in time since I only had that one space to work with and it was irregularly shaped already.

I definitely plan on building a separate studio/listening duplex in the woods on my property at some point, using a level 3 design; I might have to bribe the wife with a tennis court first! I had to bribe her with a pool to get this one, though an exercise room also got thrown into the deal somehow... :eek: Don't worry though, the cost of the room and everything in it is more than the cost of what she got (if I don't include the dirt/top-soil fill, yard sculpting and landscaping), so I am still ahead of the game, or so I like to tell myself, while listening to the sound of my own voice again... :p

Thank God almost all of this stuff increases the value of my property or I would be ripping my hair out.

Then comes the MM3.. it is priced at less than $50K and from the enthusiastic reports on this forum seems to be at the exalted level of the VR9 or VR11… My few questions and I will take the answers as subjective or opinions.. Where does it stand in the pantheon of great speakers? Is it at the level of speakers such as the Wilson X-2, Magico 6, Von Schweikert VR9 and 11, Dynaudio Evidence? Sharp eyes may have noted that I did not include the MAXX-2 it is excellent but I am not sure it is at the level of these aforementioned speakers IMHO.

Frantz; you have read my recent posts so i don't want to simply repeat myself.

where does it stand?

i have heard the X-2's in a few different environments (and owned 3 different versions of the WP), i've not heard the Magico 6's (i've heard the Mini's a couple of times), i've heard the Evidence, obviously i am very familiar with the VR9 and VR11, I'm very familiar with all the Kharmas (but not the Grand Exquisites), i've spent lots of time with Grand Uptopia Be's, i've heard the $250k Marten Coltranes, i've spent a good deal of time with the Rockport Hyperion, and many other's too numerous to mention.

i have a reasonably good feel for high performance speakers.

overall; i PREFER the MM3's to any of those other speakers.

---all of the above speakers have the ability to sound wonderful assuming the correct amplifier is used. but.......when the correct amplifier is used there are mostly big trade-offs involved due to the fact that the best amps are mid-to low powered and most of those speakers have passive bass drivers. so getting the most intimate, involving sound requires dynamic and extention limitations. the MM3 and Von Schweikert's do not have this limitation since they have active subs built in. of course; whether one values that intimate sound from lower powered amps or prefers high power amps is a matter of taste. i think even mega watt conventional amps are at a disadvantage in the bass frequencies compared to the best digital amps. low bass amplification is the one area where a digital amp is better; cleaner, less distortion, more efficient. a speakerthat uses active digital amps for deep bass has real advantages (read MM3).

---in my experience; the Accouton ceramic mid-range driver is the overall best sounding one to me. ceramic is very light and stiff and has less distortion to my ears than other choices. in some contexts it can 'ring' when not damped properly. the newest Accuton ceramic driver uses those 2 black 'anti-resonance' discs to counteract this. the MM3 uses 2 of these drivers which gives it amazing clarity and very low distortion...the only other speaker i know that uses 2 of these is the Kharma Grand Exquisite (unfortunately it is $150k and uses passive bass drivers). this driver will not tolerate less than natural sounding ss amps without telling you about it. don't blame the messinger.

---i am no expert on crossovers; but mostly my favorite speakers use simple crossovers. the MM3 uses a 1st order crossover which, i think, gives it a very open, clean sound. most of the above speakers have very complicated crossovers.

---mid-range--tweeter transition. i typically hear drivers in the above speakers when i should just hear music. the MM3's are perfect in this area. i cannot say why.

---bass performance. lots of ways to skin this cat. some use woofers and subwoofers. some just subs and some just woofers. some have sealed boxes. some use ports. some are active and others passive. i have found that for best articulation a sealed box is best. for best deep bass slam an active sub is best. for best mid-bass slam separate woofers are best. all the above speakers have good bass performance (depending on amplifier used if passive). the MM3 does not use a separate mid-bass woofer so it is not the most dynamic in the mid-bass....however; it has a simpler crossover and is still quite dynamic.....and it is active with a sealed box. really great bass performance in every way and yet still simple.

---overall coherency. simple crossover, only a three way, not bi-wired, very low distortion drivers, inert cabinet with a curved small front baffle, internally braced and 575 pounds heavy. these very large but gracefull speakers completely disappear....if the recording allows it. they sound like one driver from 10hz to 40khz. as good as i have heard from any type of speaker in this regard.

---adjustability. a few of these speakers do have adjustability. but to my knowledge the level of adjustability of the Von Schweikert and MM3's is higher. only the very best parts are used. the MM3's even allow bass 'tightness' to be adjusted. this adjustability allows the speaker to be optimized for the room.....but even more so the listener. the MM3 is inherently a very detailed, refined speaker. it can also be a very sweet sounding speaker. it is inherently a neutral speaker; but it can be very warm or a more vivid speaker.....to taste. when making these adjustments you never get a sense of 'dumbing down' the speaker. you retain the immediacy and clarity. i have friends that have somewhat different sonic compasses than myself. i can make them completely happy with a very easy twist of a dial. yet i still enjoy the speaker even though it's character is a bit altered. they still retain the coherence and sense of 'thereness'.

i even adjust the tweeter down 2db (3db for RCA Shaded Dogs) when going from digital to vinyl (my Colibri is very energetic). it takes 10 seconds.

---overall design competency. these speakers were conceptualized by Jonathan Tinn. over a 5 year period, based on his listening experience, he choose the ceramic mid-range drivers and the ribbon tweeter. he wanted a simple crossover and active bass drivers in a sealed box with room adjustments. i heard the trial horse many times on my visits and gave feedback. there was magic from the beginning but also issues. many things were tried. Jonathan had help from a number of people along the way as he is not a speaker designer himself.

Kevin Malmgren had worked for Von Schweikert for a number of years. he was prior to that an artist and sculptor. a few years ago Kevin designed a cost no object speaker for a Von Schweikert customer; which ended up becoming the VR11. he then designed the VR9SE, the VR7SE and the VR5SE based on the VR11 work.

when Kevin left Von Schweikert over a year ago Jonathan was at the point of needing someone to take his project thru the final stages. Kevin took his experience with the VS and Jonathan's concept and the MM3's are the result. it is not a first effort; it is a natural developement from kevin's VS experience with the Kharma influence from Jonathan. and a bit of Kevin's art thrown in. it doesn't hurt that Kevin had lots of experience with production design and working with suppliers and large SOTA speakers. Kevin is a perfectionist and you can see it in the product.

what is amazing is that the current list price is $38k.

to answer your question; at the top (only speaking for myself).

Frantz, you would be most welcome to fly to Seattle and listen for yourself. the invitation is always open.

Hi

Someone proposed me an Audition in NYC, I will be there in a month or two ... I will review the thread and my PM to contact that person was it Gladiator?..

Mike, that is a pretty interesting endorsement.Well I will have to open my ears and my checkbook soon... I will audition for a long time some of these superlative before taking the plunge more later...

I just caught up with this thread again. After living with these speakers for over 6 months now, the words I originally posted in starting this thread have never been truer. This is a state-of-the-art world class speaker system that will compete with, and probably better any of the competition. I have not heard better sound anywhere than what I'm hearing now.

Of course Mike's summation and description of the MM3s is spot on and worded better than I could ever do.

Frantz- I invited you to come and listen a while back and the invitation still stands. I'm about 18 miles from NYC and have had plenty of people over to hear the MM3s and it was always a fun and enjoyable time (a lot of them liked the speakers too ;) )
I can’t guarantee you will like them or they wouldn't sound a lot better in Mike's room, but it's probably worth the trip anyway.

Bah humbug.... no one in chicago....

I have plan to be in NYC soon, I'll let you know...

Thanks

Frantz

Hi Mike, I was away from this thread for quite some time. Thank you so much for answering my question on the MM2 - MM3 difference. It was what I needed to hear. Currently I have VR-5SE's, phenomenal speakers, was a little worried that I might regret parting with them to get the MM2's. But from reading your latest comments on the MM3's I can't be more impressed with not only the reported sound but the $$$. I'm almost positive I made the right choice. I whent ahead and ordered MM2's on March 22nd, a few days after I posted my question to you. I got very good answers also from Jonathan Tinn himself (what a great guy). After reading what you wrote lately on the MM3's I can't be more excited in having the MM2's some time soon in my system, I figure around 2 months. Another excellent thing about the MM2's is the nice and easy upgrade path you can follow to make them into MM3's.

By the way Mike, I love your room. I keep showing my wife your room, to make her understand what this hobby is all about. Maybe I'll sell her on the idea of building a detached dedicated audio room in our back yard. Wishfull thinking!!

Luigi,

you are welcome and congrats on the MM2's. They are not only wonderful speakers but are beautiful too; my wife really loves the way they look.

i have not personally heard the VR5SE's, but my VR9SE's had the same drivers and crossover....so i have a pretty good idea of how they sound. the VR5SE is a wonderful speaker...one that anyone would love to own. the VR5SE's don't really have a weakness; but the MM2's will simply do everything a bit (or maybe two bits) better than the VR5SE's and will also extend quite a bit deeper in the bass. also they will be an easier load for an amp since you won't need to have the amp do low frequencies.

the MM2's will be worth the wait.

Hi Mike, yes I don't doubt the MM2's will beat the VR-5SE's. I can't wait. Most of my guear is from BAT including 51SE preamp and 150SE monoblocks, with an all analog front end from VPI - HR-X with 30lb. super platter and Koetsu Jade platinum cartridge and a P10SE w/super pak phono stage. The amps are rated at 150 watts per channel. Do you think that will be enough for such a large speaker?

By the way from seing your chair and also reading a recommendation from Gladiator on the perfect chair, I got my self one and it is truly the only way to listen to good music comming from a good system at the end of a long day. AAAHHHH!!!! what a chair...Thank you Gladiator!!

Thank you for your very interesting and in detail impressions on your experience with the MM3's.

Hope to hear from you soon..

I agree Luigi... I just got my Perfect Chair mostly due to Mike's system and it is a wonderful way to listen to music!

These MM2/3 will be on my toplist for sure... for the future of course.

Joey

Hi Joey, I'm glad you are enjoying your perfect chair as much as I am. You probably sum up it's confort as I do..AAAHHHHH!!! Enjoy.

Hi Joey, I'm glad you are enjoying your perfect chair as much as I am. You probably sum up it's confort as I do..AAAHHHHH!!! Enjoy.
Hope you opted for the premium leather.... ooh lalala! :D

My friend has one of those chairs (he also has one of those egg-chairs, which looks cool, but has terrible speakers built into it...), I tried it out a few years ago. I loved it in the upright position, but then I made the mistake of putting it in the zero gravity position. For some reason, and I seem to be the only person I have met who has had this problem (making this chair impractical for me), putting the chair in the zero gravity position made my chest hurt really badly, made it hard for me to breathe, and made me feel extremely queasy. I did like the premise of it though, if it didn't have such a strange effect on my comfort, though it wouldn't work well in my listening/HT room as I wouldn't be able to snuggle with the wife, or put my arm around my kids. I did want one a few years ago to use for meditation, but that would have only been useful to me if I could sit in the zero-gravity position.

I think it might be that my body's memory relates the feeling with a g-force spin, since I did one once in a tandem paragliding jump. I got so unbelievable sick from the change in my center of gravity... The chair sort of makes my body feel similar. So perhaps the muscle memory kicks in and triggers something in my brain that connects the two experiences together.

My friend has one of those chairs (he also has one of those egg-chairs, which looks cool, but has terrible speakers built into it...), I tried it out a few years ago. I loved it in the upright position, but then I made the mistake of putting it in the zero gravity position. For some reason, and I seem to be the only person I have met who has had this problem (making this chair impractical for me), putting the chair in the zero gravity position made my chest hurt really badly, made it hard for me to breathe, and made me feel extremely queasy. I did like the premise of it though, if it didn't have such a strange effect on my comfort, though it wouldn't work well in my listening/HT room as I wouldn't be able to snuggle with the wife, or put my arm around my kids. I did want one a few years ago to use for meditation, but that would have only been useful to me if I could sit in the zero-gravity position.

I think it might be that my body's memory relates the feeling with a g-force spin, since I did one once in a tandem paragliding jump. I got so unbelievable sick from the change in my center of gravity... The chair sort of makes my body feel similar. So perhaps the muscle memory kicks in and triggers something in my brain that connects the two experiences together.

Queue,

the 'Perfect Chair'/'zero-gravity chair' is sometimes 'perscribed' by doctors for patients to use that cannot sleep laying down.....since it distributes the weight all along the body like laying down on a bed.

personally; i only use it upright; in fact i have not changed the angle of the chair since about 30 days after i originally purchased the chair 8 years ago. i can see how using it in the horizontal position could be disorienting like being in a 'sensory deprivation tank' now called an 'isolation tank'.......particularly if you have the past experience you describe.

for whatever reason, i find the chair theraputic.....especially after a hard day or week. if i have something that aches or is sore.......an hour in the chair seems to improve what ails me. maybe it's all in my head......doesn't matter since the effect certainly seems to be real. i have lots of other nice chairs; none can do that in the same way.

the only problem is that as i get a little older i tend to 'drift off' earlier and earlier.......of course i wake up earlier and earlier in the morning too.

Queue,

the 'Perfect Chair'/'zero-gravity chair' is sometimes 'perscribed' by doctors for patients to use that cannot sleep laying down.....since it distributes the weight all along the body like laying down on a bed.

personally; i only use it upright; in fact i have not changed the angle of the chair since about 30 days after i originally purchased the chair 8 years ago. i can see how using it in the horizontal position could be disorienting like being in a 'sensory deprivation tank' now called an 'isolation tank'.......particularly if you have the past experience you describe.

for whatever reason, i find the chair theraputic.....especially after a hard day or week. if i have something that aches or is sore.......an hour in the chair seems to improve what ails me. maybe it's all in my head......doesn't matter since the effect certainly seems to be real. i have lots of other nice chairs; none can do that in the same way.

the only problem is that as i get a little older i tend to 'drift off' earlier and earlier.......of course i wake up earlier and earlier in the morning too.

I agree that it is very comfortable in the upright position, i.e. I don't think it is in your head. I only had problems when I was in the anti-gravity position, or close to it. I noticed that the chair is very nicely designed to be form fitting and comfortable to sit in, and I did like it a lot, except for those extreme anti-gravity positions. I did notice there are a whole slew of positions before I hit the area where I was extremely uncomfortable.

I do not think there is another Forum on the Internet where one can be as OT as this one.. anyhow.. I am puzzled by the chair; I use an Aero and just love it..
Web Site for this anti-Gravity chair?

Mike L. I sent you a PM...

Here you go Frantz-

The Perfect Chair (http://www.interhealth.com/n/pages-b2c/perfectchair/tertiary-pc-060-090.html)

Hi Guys,
I love how this chair looks.
Looking at the brochure though I see one potential problem with the height of the back. Is it possible to lower the head support so that your ears are above the chair line? I'm concerned with early reflections as well as issues with listening to surround setup.

Richard

Seems, it comes without the headrest. I need my head to be in "free space" as well... I should test this chair, the "zero gravity" feature, intrigues me.

Hi Guys,
I love how this chair looks.
Looking at the brochure though I see one potential problem with the height of the back. Is it possible to lower the head support so that your ears are above the chair line? I'm concerned with early reflections as well as issues with listening to surround setup.

Richard

Richard,

a high back can be a problem; depending on it's particular design.

my chair has a very narrow top and it is flat and curved away from my ears. then i have a head pillow that is curved away from my ears too. so my ears are in free space and there is nothing that 'cups' the sound near my ears.

the chair in the picture is similar to mine except it is a good deal wider at the top than mine. my opinion is that it would not be a big difference between that one and mine but that there would be a difference.

what really has an acoustical effect is when there is any sort of cupping effect. then there are the room design rear wall reflection issues.......it's possible for a tall back to actually improve the sound if there are strong mid to high frequency relections off the back wall. some listening chairs are very close to rear walls and those walls are flat and reflective.

if you place your hands around your ears in a cupping shape it dramatically changes the sound. now flatten them, and then cant them away from your ears, now move them farther from your ears. once your angled hands are 6 inches or so from your ears there is no longer a noticable sonic effect......certainly nothing to justify any compromise in comfort.

a short backed chair has some theoreitcal advantages; to me it's all about what allows me to listen the most often with the least compromise and maximum comfort.

added note; i am now listening to multi-channel in my 2-channel room. my rear speakers are approx 120 degrees from front center; and i get full surround effect with my chair. again; my ears are out in clear space and there is no blocking from direct sound from the side channels.

Mike, so I guess they stopped making your model of the chair, I don't see a model with a narrower top and neck pillow curved away from the ears. That design sounds perfect.

Also, what's the retail price of the MM2's? Curious.

Thanks
Chris

OT, but I was just sitting in one and cannot decide whether to purchase it. Proper music listening is not the issue as it's for casual lounging in front of the TV. The problem with the chair is:

1. It's really only meant to be used in the reclined position. You can't use it in the up position which is really only for getting into the chair.

2. It's so damn comfortable I am afraid I'd just fall asleep in it. I wanted something I could sit in and use my laptop with while watching TV. Not sure being reclined and so comfortable would be conducive to that.

So I guess this is on of those posts that people make with the subconscious hope that someone will talk me into it :D.

So I guess this is on of those posts that people make with the subconscious hope that someone will talk me into it :D.

How does one talk you into it? By talking you out of it? :D

OT, but I was just sitting in one and cannot decide whether to purchase it. Proper music listening is not the issue as it's for casual lounging in front of the TV. The problem with the chair is:

1. It's really only meant to be used in the reclined position. You can't use it in the up position which is really only for getting into the chair.

2. It's so damn comfortable I am afraid I'd just fall asleep in it. I wanted something I could sit in and use my laptop with while watching TV. Not sure being reclined and so comfortable would be conducive to that.

So I guess this is on of those posts that people make with the subconscious hope that someone will talk me into it :D.

QQQ,

1. not true. it still transfers the weight off your spine and distributes it to your thighs and lower legs even in the upright position; i've been using it in that position for 8 years. the degree of effect is less but also the tendancy to drift off.

note; see my system page for a picture of what i consider an upright position. it is still leaned back some.

the major benefit is really derived from the fixed angle of the back, thigh, and lower leg supports......not from the degree of recline.

2. since it raises your upper legs relative to your torso it is ideal for a laptop. i get no neck ache or shoulder ache from extended lap top sessions......and i type very slow. again; it is very effective in a relatively upright position.

i am always very concerned that my ear height matches the tweeter height of any speakers i use. many chairs put you too low for ideal tonal balance, particularly when reclined. then you are forced to compromise the sonic performance or somehow raise the chair itself. never a problem with this chair in an upright position.

additional note; at first it seems that getting in and out of this chair is difficult. not so.

simply lean forward, place your feet flat on the ground, and stand up. it is the leaning forward part that is the trick......a weight transfer thing. if you try to 'pull' yourself out it is very awkward.

Mike, so I guess they stopped making your model of the chair, I don't see a model with a narrower top and neck pillow curved away from the ears. That design sounds perfect.

Also, what's the retail price of the MM2's? Curious.

Thanks
Chris

you may be right.

i purchased my chair 'mail order' from the 'relax-the-back store' website in 1999. at the time they offered a 'tall' and 'regular' version. the tall version was longer in the back and thigh sections. i'm not that tall (6' 2") but i am 'long waisted' so i sit very tall. i also choose the 'visco-elastic foam' option. the style i choose happened to be narrow in the top.

i have not seen this specific version offered for a few years.

i have a hunch that should my leather ever wear out that i will have it recovered.

***********************

the MM2's list price currently is $28,000; the MM3's are $38,000 and the MM1's are $18,000.

the price will go up in the near future; but i don't know when....possibly after the 45 or 50 sets ordered so far are built.

How does one talk you into it? By talking you out of it? :D


Person 1: Nah, you really don't want to try to sit on my new chair. It "sucks"!
Person 2: [Tries the chair just to see how "bad" it is]

Person 2: Dude, this chair is awesome!
Person 2: [-1500$]

1. not true. it still transfers the weight off your spine and distributes it to your thighs and lower legs even in the upright position; i've been using it in that position for 8 years. the degree of effect is less but also the tendancy to drift off.

note; see my system page for a picture of what i consider an upright position. it is still leaned back some.
I think we are on the same page, I was just hoping to find something I could sit in the upright position if I wanted without being reclined at all. On the current model (and I assume on yours) it is just not meant to be used in the upright position. Even the sales person said the chair is only meant to be used slightly (or more reclined). One of the things I loved about the chair was the arm placement. Many chairs it's impossible to truly relax your arms. They either hang or are too close to your body etc. On this chair at least for my body it was perfect. The store I was in had several different chairs/brands that were similar in design to the perfect chair. Once I sat in the perfect chair and then moved to the other chairs I wouldn't even consider them.

I did find one other chair I liked very much, it's the one in the fireplace here:

http://www.chairworks.com/residential.html

But the place I saw it wasn't even selling it and i cannot find it anywhere.

Thanks Mike, that's what I thought too. The narrower top is certainly more conducive to a good chair. Still, I'll check it out.

And also Thanks for the speaker info. I keep reading about the MM3's and my curiousity got the best of me ; ) They are really a nice designed speaker imo.

Chris

Talk of these speakers has sure died down since introduction.

I still really want to audition some, so I am surprised at the lack of recognition they get.

Talk of these speakers has sure died down since introduction.

I still really want to audition some, so I am surprised at the lack of recognition they get.

Same here and to me a shame... They were to me relatively sensibly priced but these lack of response even from audiophile seems to have convinced the designer to come with a hyper-version with now a price tag of $200,000.. :eek:? That is to me quite befuddling: in order for a product to receive ANY recognition, it must be priced in the stratosphere... ??? :confused:

I have heard the MM2's once at my dealers place. Man did it sound great. To me anyway. Powerful and revealing in his system. I also heard the newer MMMini2 at T.H.E Show. I think that is $40,000. The One is probably around $30,000 but can be upgraded to the 2. That system sounded fantastic even under show conditions. There is info on the MM7 on their website. It looks like one of those systems that has the tweeter and woofer columns so it is a 4 piece system.
http://evolutionacoustics.com/mmseven.html

Same here and to me a shame... They were to me relatively sensibly priced but these lack of response even from audiophile seems to have convinced the designer to come with a hyper-version with now a price tag of $200,000.. :eek:? That is to me quite befuddling: in order for a product to receive ANY recognition, it must be priced in the stratosphere... ??? :confused:

Not befuddling at all. People want the cache of having something exclusive enough that the peasant down the street won't be able to buy one. Consequently, it is much easier to sell a high end speaker for $100,000 than it is to sell one for $40K or $50K.

...........even if it isn't technically as good.

in my experience spikes always are preferrable to any other floor interface.


Really?
Do this test for me. Hit this
http://www.bofa.se/shop/images/1375.JPG

and lay it on your floor. Do it "transfer away" the vibration? ;)

Talk of these speakers has sure died down since introduction.

I still really want to audition some, so I am surprised at the lack of recognition they get.

agree; the mainstream audio press/websites have not really connected yet to this speaker. but mine are sounding quite amazing and a number of my local friends have or are about to purchase them. i think the economy has slowed down much of the expensive speaker business. but for a couple of years they sold these as fast as they could make them.

regarding the $200,000 MM7's; the question was how to improve on the MM3's? what would it take? (i was one asking this)

the MM7's are the answer. what it retails for is another matter. i don't think they expect to sell many; it's more of a halo product and research direction. the MM3's designer also designed and did the production engineering on the Von Schweikert VR11SE, which started life as a 'cost no object' one-off for a particular client. so he has the background to do this.

i'm trying to figure out how i can do the MM7's....my room is perfect for them.

I have heard the MM2's once at my dealers place. Man did it sound great. To me anyway. Powerful and revealing in his system. I also heard the newer MMMini2 at T.H.E Show. I think that is $40,000. The One is probably around $30,000 but can be upgraded to the 2. That system sounded fantastic even under show conditions. There is info on the MM7 on their website. It looks like one of those systems that has the tweeter and woofer columns so it is a 4 piece system.
http://evolutionacoustics.com/mmseven.html

not so great a deal considering the MM3 was under 40k when initially released.

and the MMMini2 at 40k? It's a bookshelf on top of a sub.

i'm sorry, this company isn't going to sell many of those.

not so great a deal considering the MM3 was under 40k when initially released.

i think most people looking at the MM3's when they first came out were very impressed and surprised at the $38k introductory price...i know i was. Evolution Accoustics felt that the best advertising was to offer them at a price that would put them in as many homes as possible. the margins were very low as the cost to build a 73" tall, 575 pound speaker with a Baltic Birch sandwich construction (700+ layers) and twin powered 15" subs was substaintial.

i wrote at the time that the MM3's were as good as any other over $100k speaker system; except they only cost $38k. yes; their list price is now higher; more inline with the competition....but still with performance exceeding the speakers in that price range.

and the MMMini2 at 40k? It's a bookshelf on top of a sub.

i'm sorry, this company isn't going to sell many of those.

if one looks at the MM Mini2 closely they are built and finished like the MM2's; and the cost to build them is nearly the same. if you listen to them i think you would agree on the performance. they use the same cabinet technology and drivers.

the competition in performance would be the Magico Mini 2 with an added subwoofer; or the Kharma Exquisite Mini's; both more dollars.

if you've heard the MM Mini2 i think you would agree with that. there are lots of cheaper speakers, or bigger speakers that cost less relatively. but better sounding for the same list price? no so sure about that.

one can always try to find a used set of MM3's.....that would be a fool proof approach if you have the room for them.

one can always try to find a used set of MM3's.....that would be a fool proof approach if you have the room for them.
Good luck though finding someone selling a pair :-). I would love the MM3's but the MM2 probably fits my room a little better.

I was "this close" to some MM2's a few weeks ago after a few conversations with Jonathan, then "the banker" pulled the plug on the expenditure...

i think most people looking at the MM3's when they first came out were very impressed and surprised at the $38k introductory price...i know i was. Evolution Accoustics felt that the best advertising was to offer them at a price that would put them in as many homes as possible. the margins were very low as the cost to build a 73" tall, 575 pound speaker with a Baltic Birch sandwich construction (700+ layers) and twin powered 15" subs was substaintial.

i wrote at the time that the MM3's were as good as any other over $100k speaker system; except they only cost $38k. yes; their list price is now higher; more inline with the competition....but still with performance exceeding the speakers in that price range.



if one looks at the MM Mini2 closely they are built and finished like the MM2's; and the cost to build them is nearly the same. if you listen to them i think you would agree on the performance. they use the same cabinet technology and drivers.

the competition in performance would be the Magico Mini 2 with an added subwoofer; or the Kharma Exquisite Mini's; both more dollars.

if you've heard the MM Mini2 i think you would agree with that. there are lots of cheaper speakers, or bigger speakers that cost less relatively. but better sounding for the same list price? no so sure about that.

one can always try to find a used set of MM3's.....that would be a fool proof approach if you have the room for them.

i would agree with that, used MM3s could fetch 35k and be a bargain for both buyer and seller :)

Mike- the problem with the Mini2 is that you have to compare it to Wilson Maxx2s, Revel Salons, or of the same ilk. while you may judge it arguably better, i just think its a tough sell. i though the Kharma 3.2 was the same way initially.

and the Magico Mini2 at 30k is a tough sell as well outside of Asia (where space is so limited). i mean, would you trade my Dynaudio C1s at 7500 list for a pair 4 times as much still with limited LFE? in the eye of the beholder i guess.

Mike- on another note, what do you think the best used speaker at around 10k is? I would require a 3 way floorstander.

Cheers,

Keith

It's kind of a shame that high-end companies can't produce 'value' product and survive. I think you can build a SOTA 5-way for under $30K that's as good as anything and sell it at a profit *if* people were willing to spend less to get more. Which they aren't.

i think the high end is in for a rude awakening this timely great recession around.

the days of 75k speakers are limited. people are looking for value in everything in their lives and odn' thave the credit that most of these large purchases were used with.

one thing that is value driven is DAC based music servers. these are relatively cheap to put together and blow 10k cdps out of the water.

*if* people were willing to spend less to get more. Which they aren't.
I sure am.

i think the high end is in for a rude awakening this timely great recession around.

the days of 75k speakers are limited. people are looking for value in everything in their lives and odn' thave the credit that most of these large purchases were used with.
<snip>

Hi

Pricing has no direct relation to the cost of material... I can understand someone selling a product at whatever the market bears.. That is capitalism... It I am however hoping for the High End Audio to get back producing sensibly priced high performance products rather than the Audio equivalent of Jewelry... where value is based on a exclusivity or perception of such... Perhaps audiophiles will begin to demand (and accept) true performance rather than continue to assume superiority based on price alone... The Jump from 48 K to 200 K is to me a response to this trend... The MM7 could indeed be superior to the MM3 but all that I see is a MM3 with Ceramic woofers augmented by 2 subwoofer columns... this for $152,000 more? The mind boggles..

Frantz:

The reason that these companies offer speakers that cost more than houses is because people are willing to buy them. Your analogy to jewelery is PERFECT. Some women want to "out do" other women and so they wear larger and/or shinier and/or gaudier and/or .... jewelery.

In fact, you can buy a 2.5 carat diamond that costs less than a 1.5 carat diamond but it "shows" better. The clarity, color, cut and quality are not as good but 99.9999% of observers would never know.

Some men to the EXACT same thing with "audio jewlerery". The $100,000 speaker may not sound as accurate as the $20,000 speaker, but it looks cooler, is larger and has appealing sonic inaccuracies that appeal to the casual listener.

As to what Frantz says, most companies simply find things to do to make the cost higher. Hand winding things. Hand rubbing things. Hiring someone just to stand there and watch a machine do things flawlessly. Then they talk at length about how expensive the product is to build because all of the time and 'love' that went into it, rather than do what every other business model does, which is figure out how to build and sell the same quality for less.

the best example i have ever heard was from the winemaker at Hietz cellars in the late 60's. every time their wine sold out, they doubled the price for the next year. when it no longer sold out... then they had it right.

And those who wanted to buy assume that more expensive is better.

With Evolution, it seemed like what they had was really low in price when mike was talking about it. now they have corrected.

the best example i have ever heard was from the winemaker at Hietz cellars in the late 60's. every time their wine sold out, they doubled the price for the next year. when it no longer sold out... then they had it right.

And those who wanted to buy assume that more expensive is better.

With Evolution, it seemed like what they had was really low in price when mike was talking about it. now they have corrected.

:D

What's the current MSRP on the MM3?

Frantz, I can tell you the current price of Heitz. Does that count?:)

Frantz, I can tell you the current price of Heitz. Does that count?:)

:D :D

NO!! :p

I Have a Request of anybody in the Portland Oregon area.
I sure would like to audition a pair of MM2 or 3. 3's preferably.
I sure would appreciate it. I would be interested in purchasing the MM3 down the road but it seem that unless you are going to buy on the spot they are not interested in you.

As a way I could show my appreciation I do have a vast collection of DCC Gold's and other special discs, and I could make copies for you. I am a very nice person, at least I think so. Give me a call or respond to this message 5037506749.
Thank you in advance
Douglas C.

Doug,

Why don't you contact Evolution Acoustics aka J. Tinn as he is in Portland. He could probably arrange something for you to audition.