So I have the unique capability to test the bass output of the A1's analog vs digital out. You can read why in the blog link below. I was curious to see how the A1 DAC's compared to my Lexicon MC12B DACs for low bass, as well as sound quality in general. After the Lexi, the signal goes to Krell FPB's, and onto Wilson X1-3s. A decent system.

For analog out of the A1, I take the signal through analog bypass of the Lexi.
For digital out of the A1, I am using SPDIF, will try coax later for fun.

I was surprised at the significantly increased SPLs in the below 40Hz region, and even below 20Hz. I have not done quantitative measurements yet, but speaking from experience in tuning bass in my room for the last year, I conclude that the A1 analog outs are better for producing bass, at least in my setup.

Overall sound quality also seemed to improve elsewhere in the spectrum with the analog out signal. Hard to imagine that the Lexi DACs are inferior to the Toshi A1 DACs. But something to consider for you A1 owners with better speakers: if you are in the market for A2's, then you might want to test the A2 analog/digital out vs the A1 analog outs... if the A1 designers got the DAC/analog design really right, the A2 designers might have changed it, for better, or for worse.

So keep both units until you know which sounds better.... understanding that the XA2 has better video specs.

Wooow! Did you use the same audio stream (Dts, DD) in both cases?

I use the 5.1 analogs on my A1 for just about everything... HD DVD's, DVD's, and CD's (2.1 for the CD's). It sounds great. The only qualm I have is that the LFE levels are very low through analog. I compensated by setting all speakers other than the sub to -12 in the A1, putting the sub to +10 on my receiver, and turning the gain on the sub itself up to 8/10. Through coax from my STB for cable the bass is now way too high and I had to set the bass on the receiver for that input down to -8. No big deal now that it's all set, but it's a lot of tinkering. It would be nice now to get DVE (which has been delayed :( ) to get some proper test tones.

So I have the unique capability to test the bass output of the A1's analog vs digital out. You can read why in the blog link below. I was curious to see how the A1 DAC's compared to my Lexicon MC12B DACs for low bass, as well as sound quality in general. After the Lexi, the signal goes to Krell FPB's, and onto Wilson X1-3s. A decent system.

For analog out of the A1, I take the signal through analog bypass of the Lexi.
For digital out of the A1, I am using SPDIF, will try coax later for fun.

I was surprised at the significantly increased SPLs in the below 40Hz region, and even below 20Hz. I have not done quantitative measurements yet, but speaking from experience in tuning bass in my room for the last year, I conclude that the A1 analog outs are better for producing bass, at least in my setup.

Overall sound quality also seemed to improve elsewhere in the spectrum with the analog out signal. Hard to imagine that the Lexi DACs are inferior to the Toshi A1 DACs. But something to consider for you A1 owners with better speakers: if you are in the market for A2's, then you might want to test the A2 analog/digital out vs the A1 analog outs... if the A1 designers got the DAC/analog design really right, the A2 designers might have changed it, for better, or for worse.

So keep both units until you know which sounds better.... understanding that the XA2 has better video specs.

Boy, I must either be doing something wrong in my setup, or maybe my analog interconnects are just not up to snuff. I say that because I also have been doing a lot of comparing the analog out of my HDDVD player to the digital output, both coaxial and optical. This is with movies and CDs.

I find that I have much more detailed sound through digital output into my Sony DA4ES receiver. When I switch to the multi-channel input, I seem to lose a lot of detail and "presence". I am using decent interconnects for the front L/R channels, which are Audio Art IC-1s. From comparing them to a set of Paul Speltz Anti-ICs when I first got them, I do know that the Audio Arts do seem a little rolled of in HF, compared to the Anti-ICs.

Based on the test tones, I have the HDDVD player speaker levels set: Front L/R at -5, Center and Surrounds at -4, sub is set to "don't use", since I don't yet have a sub.

The sound from the analog outs does seem to be pretty smooth sounding, but I seem to miss detail and definition. And I do think it may have deeper bass than the digital output.

But overall, I find myself consistently switching back to the digital output.

Based on the test tones, I have the HDDVD player speaker levels set: Front L/R at -5, Center and Surrounds at -4, sub is set to "don't use", since I don't yet have a sub.
Both the Center and the sub test tones out of the Toshiba player are broken/wrong. :( You need to use Avia, DVE or THX Optimizer tones off of a SD DVD. Also are you using a SPL meter? You really should.

The Tosh player has been noted to not do a good job of re-directing the LFE to the other channels when the sub is marked not present.

So in your case it would be better to the the S/PDIF output of the player and let your AVR do all of the Bass Management. But not for those of us with 5.1 speakers and are willing to go through all of the steps to do a 5.1 analog calibration and find a way to get the +10 dB boost on the LFE/subwoofer analog output of the Tosh.

Bob

I'm using a Sony VA555ES AV receiver with B&W 602S3 speakers. I'm finding that the converted DD+ to DTS coaxial spdif sounds better than analogue direct. Having said that I still don't think the converted DD+ track sounds as good as a proper DD/DTS stream such as than on a DVD - Sahara HD-DVD actually has a standard DTS track and it sounds better than the Dolby Digital plus track. Also for some reason my AV receiver over attenuates the pass through to the sub woofer, its far too low. With the sub connected directly to the A1, it's far too high.

I could not tell any difference between the DD+ and Dolby True HD track on Batman Begins, analogue or spdif.

Perhaps I need a new AV receiver with HDMI?

Analog out sounds great for my system, the A1 has to be the best CD/DVD player I've ever owned. The digital out sounds thin in comparision

I'm using a Sony VA555ES AV receiver with B&W 602S3 speakers. I'm finding that the converted DD+ to DTS coaxial spdif sounds better than analogue direct. Having said that I still don't think the converted DD+ track sounds as good as a proper DD/DTS stream such as than on a DVD - Sahara HD-DVD actually has a standard DTS track and it sounds better than the Dolby Digital plus track. Also for some reason my AV receiver over attenuates the pass through to the sub woofer, its far too low. With the sub connected directly to the A1, it's far too high.

I could not tell any difference between the DD+ and Dolby True HD track on Batman Begins, analogue or spdif.

Perhaps I need a new AV receiver with HDMI?

Yes, I found the same thing on BB.

I did some more listening last night and will do some more. Watching Superman Returns, I could not really tell the diff between TrueHD on the analog out and the dts THX (what the Lexi sees on the digital in) digital out.
Though I found out I had not turned up the amp volume (from zero) for the Rotary Woofers, so the bass was not fully operational.

I'll try again tonight.

One problem I do have with the analog outs from the Toshi is some ground loop noise... unbalanced connectors tend to give you that issue at high volumes.

One thing you should notice is that it takes some time for the Toshiba to do the downconversion, resulting in a slight, but noticeable audio delay.

This isn't present when using the analog outputs since the downconversion doesn't take place.

I have to use the digital out and this drives me nuts.

This might be a stupid question, and probaly has been answered 100 times already, but I'll ask it anyway. I Just got the player a few days ago and downloaded the new firmware. It's hooked up using the 5.1 analogs to my Onkyo multichannel inputs. What do I set the audio setting to; PCM or Bitstream? And then my receiver should be set to mutichannel, right?

Whatever I do--TrueHD out, 5.1, coax, multichannel, two channel, bitstream--I'm buggered right now. I can't get the front two speakers to work. I know I must play with the A1 and with my 1999 Pioneer receiver. Damn, why does this crap take so much effort! :confused:

This might be a stupid question, and probaly has been answered 100 times already, but I'll ask it anyway. I Just got the player a few days ago and downloaded the new firmware. It's hooked up using the 5.1 analogs to my Onkyo multichannel inputs. What do I set the audio setting to; PCM or Bitstream? And then my receiver should be set to mutichannel, right?

I have been using bitstream. The receiver should be set to 5.1 multi. If you just set it to analog, you won't get the surrounds working.

I have been comparing the analog outs to the digital outs (HDMI) over the past month or so and I have to say that the analogs win by a wide margin. As long as you compensate for the lower LFE levels, man, they rock--Especially with Dolby True HD material. I agree with TZUCC, keep those first Gens if only for the analogs.

I have been comparing the analog outs to the digital outs (HDMI) over the past month or so and I have to say that the analogs win by a wide margin. As long as you compensate for the lower LFE levels, man, they rock--Especially with Dolby True HD material. I agree with TZUCC, keep those first Gens if only for the analogs.

That says a lot, coming from someone who can listen to the new audio through HDMI, most of us are using coax and getting DTS ("older" audio) digitally. Like I stated earlier in the thread (and like you state^^) once you get the bass sorted out, it's great.

well last time I did listen to Superman REturns in TrueHD and in DD+, and this time I found the DD+ to have noticably more bass. I think the reason may very well be that, as noted above, the analog out .1 channel is about 15dB too low. I can compensate for that in my EQ or Lexicon, but why bother.... the mid-high freq's seem to be roughly the same for this TrueHD material.
I think it's inconclusive to my setup, as to whether to listen to the analog out or digital out.

I agree with the OP that the analog outputs seem noticably better than using the digital out with my system. I have an Integra DTR7 receiver that I thought had pretty decent DACs, but they definitely seem to be inferior to the DACs in the A1. I'm using B&W 602S2s for my fronts, and as I go through playing older SD DVDs I haven't watched in awhile, I'm consistently surprised at how great they sound. I'm getting an open soundstage now that I never used to get with digital toslink connection.

I have two questions regarding the audio processing in the A1 though:

1. When playing a CD, will it make a LFE track to output to a sub like my receiver digital signal processing would? This also relates to whether or not the A1 would use the x-over settings in the 5.1 setup for 2 channel audio too. I'm hoping its not similar to my receiver's "direct" mode which simply converts the two channels of digital audio to analog and outputs them to the speakers - no processing at all for x-overs or LFE used.

2. Is the A1 capable of doing the THX processing internally? For those movies that have a THX soundtrack, I'd like to be able to have those extra 4 processing features that THX provides. Of course on my receiver I could just select THX audio instead of just DD5.1, but with the analog pass through it clearly won't perform this processing. Will the A1 do this where appropriate? I'm guessing no.

Well, I did some more extensive 2-channel comparisons with standard music CDs between the HD-A1's analog outs versus the digital output into my Sony DA4ES.

And I am still getting the same result. On the soundtrack of Out of Africa and the DAD of the Glory soundtrack, the sound is just better when letting the Sony decode the digital output. Instruments sound more real, strings are less strident, drums are placed better, and there is more depth to the soundstage.

I am using Paul Speltz Anti-ICs to connect the analog outs into the multi-channel input on the Sony. BTW, I have found the Speltz to be very accurate interconnects.

So, the only explanation(other than that the Sony's DACs are better) that I can venture as to why my ears are telling me something different from most everyone else is that perhaps the multi-channel inputs on the Sony are introducing some kind of distortion or "smearing" of the signal.

I find it hard to believe the DACs on the several year old Sony are this good, but I just can't deny what I am hearing. I also find the same results when listening to movies. I like the decoded DD+ soundtrack of HD-DVDs over the analog output of the Toshiba.

I think I will try the same experiment with my Oppo universal player and see if I get the same result.

I have the denon 2808 and also feel the analog outs on the a1 produce a fuller sound then using digital to the Denon. It is most apparent on cds, HD dvds and less on DD and DTS sent as bit stream to reciever.

After switching from a Pioneer to an Onkyo receiver (the TX-SR674), my low LFE problems vanished. I think the Pioneer was the reason for the low bass, not the A1.
I had my Pioneer boost the bass +10 dB.

I have both the 5.1 analogs and the HDMI connected. Both sound pretty good on my system (Infinity TSS-1100 5.1 speakers), but the 5.1 Multichannel analog sound is clearly deeper in bass than the HDMI sound provides. I have my Onkyo boosting the bass by +3dB, mostly for the HDMI and other inputs to be adequate. The 5.1 analogs boom...

I need no bass/LFE boost of any kind with my A1. This is with firmware 2.2.

After switching from a Pioneer to an Onkyo receiver (the TX-SR674), my low LFE problems vanished. I think the Pioneer was the reason for the low bass, not the A1.
I had my Pioneer boost the bass +10 dB.

I have both the 5.1 analogs and the HDMI connected. Both sound pretty good on my system (Infinity TSS-1100 5.1 speakers), but the 5.1 Multichannel analog sound is clearly deeper in bass than the HDMI sound provides. I have my Onkyo boosting the bass by +3dB, mostly for the HDMI and other inputs to be adequate. The 5.1 analogs boom...

I need no bass/LFE boost of any kind with my A1. This is with firmware 2.2.

Firmware 2.2? I didn't know we were up to 2.2. I have 2.0. What does 2.2 offer over 2.0?

Thanks

For those who have analog5.1 out sounds great in your system, if you don't mind please post your gears and settings of each from A1; AV; Amp/PreAmp; speakers; sub.

I can't get mine to work to appreciate the trueHD like everyone else has been raving about. I currently use DigCoax on my A1 to Denon AVR4802 w/ 5.1 Energy Speakers, which has 2 front speakers with built-in powered subs.

Cheers,
TP.

I upgraded my FW to 2.2 and I lost my subwoofer out. Oh well I will upgrade to the new Denon reciever with HDMI anyways.

No adjustment can be made in the Denon, at least w/ my AVR4802, if using EXT. IN (aka 5.1analog).

Remember that bootsting the analog subwoofer channel at the AVR, also boosts the redirected bass (if bass management is engaged). There have been many threads that confirm that the BM in the A1 is not working correctly, and my experiences back this up. The A1 fails to give the 10dB boost to the LFE before mixing in the redirected bass. If the subwoofer channel (LFE + RB) is boosted by 10dB in the AVR, the entire bass mixture is boosted, and the RB will be 10dB hot. The only way around this is to disable BM altogether, until Tosh releases a FW fix for this. I also noticed that the TrueHD LFE test tones on HD-DVE come in at 5dB lower than the DTS tones from SD-DVE (with nothing changed), with the BM in the Tosh enabled. Wierder still, the remixed TrueHD tones or DD+ over SPDIF is also 5dB cooler than their DD/DTS counterpart (only LFE, all others are spot on). And yet, Toshiba claims there is no problem (There is no spoon? - sorry, just watched "The Matrix"). The same guy told me that the safest and most accurate way to calibrate is by ear....

I love my A1 analogs for HD DVD/DVD, but it shines the most on CD's

I'm using an Onkyo TX-SR 700 which I believe has Burr Brown DAC's. It just does not come close.

Few clarifications, please:

"sans sub"?
"RB"? "Hot RB"?

I'm still learning. :o

Cheers,
TP.

tpham,

I have the lowly Denon 2105, and it will allow me to give a SW boost of 0dB, 5dB, 10dB, or 15dB over the EXT IN in setup. I had the signal boosted by +15dB to make up the difference in low SW output, but it took a bottomed SVS before I understood the nature of the problem (the RB was much to hot). If the 4802 does not have this option, your best bet is to either disable the BM in the Tosh (all channels to 'Large', c/o at 120Hz), setting all channels (sans sub) to -12dB, leaving the sub at zero. This will re-establish the correct balance between channels, but then the bass below the rating of your mains disappears into the netherworld. The other option is to live with the hot RB if you have the headroom to handle it (I do not).

Firmware 2.2? I didn't know we were up to 2.2. I have 2.0. What does 2.2 offer over 2.0?

Thanks

2.2 has been out for quite a while, now. There is a sticky about it; check it out.

It mostly improves disc reading. I know that the occasional pauses I'd get with TrueHD sound have pretty much vanished.

Will give it a shot. Thank you much.

tpham,

"sans sub" = ...except the subwoofer
"RB" = redirected bass
"hot RB" = redirected bass at a higher level than intended

:)

tpham,

I just re-read my post, and the proper balance is restored by setting all channels except the sub to -10 (not -12), leaving the sub at zero. You would have caught that when you calibrated, but in case it slipped through the cracks.....:)

Vader, what if one doesn't have a sub yet. Would I use the above settings as well? Does this work through the analog outputs? I have never been able to get much bass from my HD-A1 when using the analog outs, whether I set the sub setting to "use" or "don't use"

Thanks much

Vader, what if one doesn't have a sub yet. Would I use the above settings as well? Does this work through the analog outputs? I have never been able to get much bass from my HD-A1 when using the analog outs, whether I set the sub setting to "use" or "don't use"In the past the Toshiba HD DVD players have not done a good job redirecting any bass/LFE from the LFE channel to the other analog outputs. Basically you have to use the S/PDIF digital (coax or optical Toslink) or linear PCM via HDMI if you do not have a sub and want to hear the LFE bass. Or some other rig that can do external bass management.

mtrot,

Bobgpsr above is right. Your best bet is to use the SPDIF or HDMI and let your AVR do the BM, at least until Toshiba fixes the problem via a FW upgrade (rumor has it that another is due in the Fall.....?). I don't know about HDMI, but over SPDIF I have established the downmixed TrueHD or DD+ subwoofer channel to be 5dB cooler than native DTS or DD. From what I've heard, HDMI is the only problem-free path right now... and if you have HDMI available, there really is no reason to go analog in the first place. C'Mon, Denon..... give us a flagship hybrid player for Christmas!

Thanks Vader and Bob,

Yes, after some experimentation, I just settled on letting the receiver do the decoding. Sounds great anyway.

Vader,

Greatly appreciated for your help.

I finally get the bass/LFE out of analog as you suggested. It produces more thumbing bass than via coaxial/dts, like you've mentioned it as a bug on earlier posts. However, there's no distinct sound differences between DD+ & TrueHD, changing from the language menu or audio button on A2, during my test on the Matrix Reloaded. Bass/Mid/Highs/sound stage sound identical between DD+ & TrueHD, and that can't be right. :confused:

Hopefully, there's a work from Tosh on the next FW update.

Cheers,
TP.


tpham,

I just re-read my post, and the proper balance is restored by setting all channels except the sub to -10 (not -12), leaving the sub at zero. You would have caught that when you calibrated, but in case it slipped through the cracks.....:)

Thanks Vader and Bob,

Yes, after some experimentation, I just settled on letting the receiver do the decoding. Sounds great anyway.

After connecting my Oppo 970 in place of the HDDVD player, I did some more CD listening. Unlike what I found with the HDDVD player, I definitely got better audio quality from the Oppo's analog output than letting the receiver decode. Using the same interconnects, of course.

The Oppo's analog output is definitely superior to the RCA HDV5000. Much better timbral accuracy of instruments, as well as soundstaging. More dynamic as well.

If you listen to many CDs, check it out for yourself. Compare a CD/DVD player known for good audio quality to the HDDVD player.

(I realize some folks out there have seperate AV setups for audio and video, but I don't have that option.)

How can I check whether I'm having LFE issues with my HD-A1 of the kind described in this thread? I have just upgraded from a Denon 1906 receiver where I was using optical to a Yamaha RX-V661 where I am using HDMI. It could all be in my mind, but the Yammy sounds like it's missing bass presence and yet when I put Avia in and check the levels LFE is balanced with all the others. Am I just imagining this?

Great information here. I was wondering, if I use 5.1 analog ouput how do I set up the bass management on the system as far as the other speakers? That is, all speaker small on the toshiba side or all speaker small on the receiver side?

Great information here. I was wondering, if I use 5.1 analog ouput how do I set up the bass management on the system as far as the other speakers? That is, all speaker small on the toshiba side or all speaker small on the receiver side?

Assuming you are running the analog outputs into a multi-channel analog input on the receiver, the receiver's settings won't come into play. Only the settings on the HDDVD player will matter. How you configure your speaker size settings in the HDDVD player depends on the size and type of all your speakers.

Great information here. I was wondering, if I use 5.1 analog ouput how do I set up the bass management on the system as far as the other speakers? That is, all speaker small on the toshiba side or all speaker small on the receiver side?Normally it is best to re-enter all the same settings in the Toshba player as done in the AVR for speaker size (normally small) sub crossover (normally 80 Hz) and distances (same as used in AVR). The speaker levels is trickier - often leave the sub at 0 and set all others approx -5dB down. Then boost the sub sensitivity +5 to +10 dB at the sub amp. Follow this by re-calibrating your AVR with a other than analog multichannel input to compensate for the changed sub level. Best to read the other threads here on this.

After switching from a Pioneer to an Onkyo receiver (the TX-SR674), my low LFE problems vanished. I think the Pioneer was the reason for the low bass, not the A1.
I had my Pioneer boost the bass +10 dB.

I have both the 5.1 analogs and the HDMI connected. Both sound pretty good on my system (Infinity TSS-1100 5.1 speakers), but the 5.1 Multichannel analog sound is clearly deeper in bass than the HDMI sound provides. I have my Onkyo boosting the bass by +3dB, mostly for the HDMI and other inputs to be adequate. The 5.1 analogs boom...

I need no bass/LFE boost of any kind with my A1. This is with firmware 2.2.

I also got the 674, exchanged it for the 705. Man what a difference it makes for VQ/AQ, and the remote is bannans, full backlit.

Set the player to
SPDIF:PCM
HDMI:AUTO

When you select DD+,DTS, or TrueHD you will notice a difference. :eek:
Write down your setting so you can change them back it you don't agree.

Both the Center and the sub test tones out of the Toshiba player are broken/wrong. :( You need to use Avia, DVE or THX Optimizer tones off of a SD DVD. Also are you using a SPL meter? You really should.

The Tosh player has been noted to not do a good job of re-directing the LFE to the other channels when the sub is marked not present.

So in your case it would be better to the the S/PDIF output of the player and let your AVR do all of the Bass Management. But not for those of us with 5.1 speakers and are willing to go through all of the steps to do a 5.1 analog calibration and find a way to get the +10 dB boost on the LFE/subwoofer analog output of the Tosh.

Bob

Bob,

Regarding the broken test tone for the center channel, have you tried using HD-DVE with your speakers set to small? On my A-1, it sounds like the center channel is putting out a more full range sound ala "large" speaker size. Makes me wonder if its the test tone that's broken or the speaker size setup that's broken.

Bob,

Regarding the broken test tone for the center channel, have you tried using HD-DVE with your speakers set to small? On my A-1, it sounds like the center channel is putting out a more full range sound ala "large" speaker size. Makes me wonder if its the test tone that's broken or the speaker size setup that's broken.I have never found that the gen 1 player's center test tone and sub/LFE test tone were right (I have a XA1 and tried all versions of firmware since May 06). They still seem to have the wrong spectrum mix of sound. Toshiba really needs to fix this!

For gen 2 I have never had the sub/LFE test tone work. (XA2)

I have used the SD DVD of Avia, THX optimizer on some SD DVD's and also the new HD DVD of DVE for test tones when calibrating my two systems (one with a XA1 and another with a XA2).