The Linn transport that is used in so many cd/sacd players is very small indeed compared to the Teac Esoteric VRDS clamping system, you could fit 3 Linns in the space occupied by the VRDS.

No wonder NASA and Boeing use these guys.

CINERAMAX,

Alex Peychev is developing his own players based on the Teac VRDS mechanism. Check APL hifi for the details.

But why not go with hard drive based-approach to serving up digital music?

- Steve O.

I know I know, but there are 5,000 SACD's and DVDA & DTS multichannel discs out there.

Say what you want, but the Linn can be a great piece---i had the Unidisk 1.1, which replaced a Wadia 861 with your Teac VRDS transport.

No question which was the better player. Not even close.

I like my VRDS-Neo:
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/sleestack666/Resized_DSC00927.jpghttp://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/sleestack666/Resized_DSC00926.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/sleestack666/Resized_DSC00928.jpghttp://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/sleestack666/e7f8ae69.jpg

But why not go with hard drive based-approach to serving up digital music?


I do both. The SD Transporters are great. Nevertheless, there are many well recorded SACDs out there in the genres I like, so I still need a 2 channel SACD player. Plus, all of the conversion and synch capabilities at the transport level make it extremely versatile, especially with redbook CDs.

Sleek, Sleekstack. But where is the G-0s?

Sleek, Sleekstack. But where is the G-0s?

Why? To degrade the synch structure of the P-03/D-03?

I am contemplating doing an esoteric tact audio, boz all digital chain. Seems to me that having the rubidium master clock in charge would sound better.

This guy thinks so. (http://www.teac.com/esoteric/6moonsP-03_D-03_and_G-0s.pdf)

I compared the very good (exept SWM3/SE) EMM Labs SE-line with Esoteric's 03-series. The P-03/D-03 was IMO the superior one especially when the external G-0s clock was used in combination with "ES-LINK", two AES dig ICs, instead of their firewire "i-Link".

The disappointment was that this superior chain was only possible on two channels, not all six channels like the P-01 (which -still- can not handle native DSD as the newer 03-series do).

Furthermore I think that using an external HQ master clock (like G-0s or dCS' Verona) is an upgrade, not a degradation.

Well I will have to respectfully disagree. I had asked specifically about using an external clock on the combo, b/c of my TACT systems, and was told by my Esoteric dealer not to use an external clock, despite the fact he wanted to sell me the G-0s. But, I'm not trying to discount what you heard, especially because I haven't tried it myself. I prefer the P-03/D-03 using it's own dual AES + synch function. The iLink limits functionality of the combo, so I don't use it.

I have a robust 5.1 audio setup. While I do occasionally listen to multi-channel audio, I think most people buying th P-03/D-03 are using it in dedicated 2 channel setups. My 2 channel doesn't have to deal with the acoustic issue of having a 65" plasma panel in between the speakers. The X-01 is very nice, but needs to upgrade to their latest technology.

I am contemplating doing an esoteric tact audio, boz all digital chain. Seems to me that having the rubidium master clock in charge would sound better.

This guy thinks so. (http://www.teac.com/esoteric/6moonsP-03_D-03_and_G-0s.pdf)

Master clock in a Boz chain would make sense.

6moons... I take everything they say with a huge grain of salt.

I prefer both Esoteric and EMM Labs over Linn. Best option for multichannel music is IMHO a Meridian 800 V4 (especially for DVD-A) and an EMM Labs transport + six channel D/A for sacd.

If ithe budget allows only one do-it-all player then Esoteric would be my choice. I use the Meridian 800 myself and I am in the market for a nice MC sacd machine, like the new one box EMM Labs that is coming onto the market (not sure if that is a MC machine).

Wow! Let's extend this same incredible logic:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/its/newsletter/2005/08/diskssm.jpg

That big sturdy drive furthest to the right must be SOOO much superior! It holds a whopping 10megabytes! WOW! :eek:

I'll bet this drive is even better than that:
http://www.desdeguate.com/blog/wp-content/blog/noviembre/hard-disk-1975.jpg

Just LOOK at how big and gigantic that is! It clearly must be the best.

It's such a shame they don't make hard drives with that kind of build anymore. That's why our computers nowadays just aren't as good as they used to be. What a shame. :rolleyes:

Wow! Let's extend this same incredible logic:


Why? You are talking about 2 different technologies.

Oh that's right, they're not anything alike. Data on a magnetic disc, that's just totally unlike data on an optical disc. So radically different.

So, they are the same and are subject to the same issues?

I'm not saying bigger or smaller transports are better. It is obviously dependent on the design, but given the way the VDRS-Neo works, it understandably requires a larger housing. There is certainly nothing wrong with over-engineering for stability in a CD transport. If you want something small, just go get a portable CD player.

Chris just feels threatened by the suggestion that bigger is better. And if I made as many women laugh as I have heard he has, I would be just as defensive.

lol. No, it's just that the conclusions peter wants us to draw from the photographs of two different CD drives side by side really don't follow logically. We're supposed to assume that bigger/sturdier/heavier must necessarily equal superior. Well, I mean, give me a break. It's silly.

Gee, I'm glad you explained that again for me. But I think I got it the first...and agreed. I just couldn't resist rattling your chain.

:)

iii waswaswas responding to 666, not QQQ... ;)

Oh that's right, they're not anything alike. Data on a magnetic disc, that's just totally unlike data on an optical disc. So radically different.


Chris why do you have to take every other thread and try to convert it into the Lincoln - Douglas debate?

The fact is that if I am discussing some technological proposition in here is because I (being in the Industry of designing Big Boy systems for a living) may have come across it's virtues as part of a solution, strategic or tactical to conditions in the field, or imposed for other reasons (ie. architectural).

So I am in need of the most massive clamping universal disc system practical. I hardly see how your pissant whippersnapper sophomoricals contribute anything to my dilemma. You essentially are wasting my time twice, when reading your post and when having to respond to it out of good manners.

lol. No, it's just that the conclusions peter wants us to draw from the photographs of two different CD drives side by side really don't follow logically. We're supposed to assume that bigger/sturdier/heavier must necessarily equal superior. Well, I mean, give me a break. It's silly.

You are right about that. No assumptions can be made either way.

I do still like my big and bulky VDRS-Neo.

Chris just feels threatened by the suggestion that bigger is better. And if I made as many women laugh as I have heard he has, I would be just as defensive.

There's always someone who finds humor in the otherwise combative world of internet banter. Good one.

Sleekstack:

Does the p3 universal transfer multichannel channel sacd and dvd a through the HDMI connector?

http://www.teac.com/esoteric/P-03_Universal.pdf

Hi,
I have to correct myself (see post number 10 above), I thought that this was the only way Esoteric could handle DSD multichannel in the 03-series, which is not exactly the case as I learned recently.
But first: I said that I experienced ES-LINK (AES cables) as being the most superior connection when I listened to the P-03/D-03. In the transport the signals are split and send over each own AES-cable being able to hold it in DSD, and without any conversion to PCM.


The latter option also leaves you with the possibility to connect 3 dig-RCA from your processor (like Theta's CB3 with dig-out card) and upsample a PCM signal to DSD, for example from new HDDVD / BR source, or DD / DTS !!!

Furthermore I think that a master clock is paramount when the digital front end consist of multiple dacs+transport(s), but not when only one integrated unit is used.
So, IMO the most advanced and superior sounding system now would be a set up of P-01 w/3x D-03 w/G-0s connected via 6x (AES) ES-LINK and 4x BNC for M/C.


A development which is more interesting is what Esoteric is doing themselves right now: they will come to market with DUAL DACs on the X-01 called "X-01 D2" using both DACs, (PCM) BB1704 and (DSD) AD1955:
# 3 "mode" options to select (manual or autom. via source)
1) DSD mode = SACD
2) multiple bit mode = PCM using 1704's
3) 1 bit mode PCM using AD 1955's

Imagine that technique on the D-03 chain above !!!
What more can you want?

Regards, Rene-L



.



Rene you are obviously at the forefront of the Esoteric users application development, congratulations . That is fascinating information. Unfortunately I am coming up against a brickwall here for my intended application.

You see I wanted to go all digital with tact TCS MK3/boz 6x220/216 in 11.1.1(rotary sub) channel configuration, the problem the tact will not take dsd in. So I would have to use the converters d3 as you have suggested but then the bottleneck is the mickey mouse Tact 6 channel a to d firewire interface. What to do? Even worse I think that firewire connection is going away with HDMI, which will be 1.3.

An alternative as a mixing surround processor is the Mimesis 30, and I then could use 5 x srm250 ampsfor the 5 fronts and 3 srm 150 for the 6 surrounds. But that would leave out the room correction.

I do want to have a po3 in the system as it should be better than the eidos 38. No?

http://cineramax.com/images/Cine-Evl-Ex-Elevat-sml.jpg


http://cineramax.com/images/Amp-rack.jpg http://cineramax.com/images/Source-Rack.jpg

In the right rack it shows an esoteric dv-60, which I no longer want, I want te Po3.

Your thoughts?

IMO the P-03/D-03s combo will bring you much more music. However, integrating a processor for DD/DTS-decoding and/or roomcorrection in such chain is nowadays NOT possible as far as I know because there simply isn't (yet) a processor with firewire IN+OUT or likewise HDMI.



Thanks for the response. I have been speaking with Boz regarding the next generation tact tcs and it will have HDMI 1.3. In fact he complains that firewire is ridden with jitter, and that HDMI will be much better in that regard. Withe this info I have contatced Esoteric to inquire if it's possible to have a P03 Universal available with HDMI. They are looking into it.

I might be wrong but isn't MC-audio via HDMI 1.3 the so called LPCM at max 24/192 PCM for MC? If so, than still no 2.8MHz DSD.

About firewire and jitter... that is IMO why the external masterclock plays an important role and a major reason why Esoteric and dCS advice to use it in their multiple box firewire chains.


The problem is Boz does not want to put DSD on the Tact tcs Mk3. He considers that an investment in a dead format. Which to some extent we must agree. So he is yanking out the firewire interface in order to put 3 hdmi 1.3 jacks in the back (2 in 1 out). The tact tcs Mk3 will support dvda and sacd via hdmi 1.3 which he considers superior to I-link, which he said is garbage.

Now the TCS does not NEED a master clock input like the BOZ has, in fact every BOZ 220 has a word clock input.

According to him the word clock input is required in TWO points Source and dac, not in any intermediate processing.

Here are the rears of the Boz amps, the word clock inputs ARE THERE.

http://cineramax.com/images/boz216_2200_back600.jpg


So I am resigned to not having an all DSD chain since the processor and power dacs are not dsd pieces. Tact TCS MK 3 and Boz 220 /216 controller.


Now when I mentioned to him that some audiophiles were tweaking his amplifiers with better capacitors , cables and power supplies, he responded that some of this stuff is inaudibly unnecessary, but that if it made the client feel better he will build "X" xtreme versions on a custom order bassis with 1% top shelf componentry, at a premium.

Correct me if I am wrong but you agree that the tact/boz chain cannot benefit from the dsd 2.8 mhz correct? Not without a major redesign.

So all I need for the system to work is for Teac to upgrade the p 03 universal
to HDMI 1.3 that the tact chain can take care of the signal. The G-0 s would still be used as the master clock for the p-03, the slim devices transporter.

http://cineramax.com/images/Trnsporter-rear.jpg

and the six stereo boz 220 power dacs. That is 8 word clock outputs needed in the g-0s.

http://cineramax.com/images/BOZ.jpg

[For those of you tuning in at this moment the reason for the 12 channels of amplification are the usual 7 channels plus steered fill-in Left-Center, Right -Center, and fill-in steered forward-sides as well as a Rotary Sub Eq boost channel 0-20hz. The five front are full bandwith 20-20.]

Boz said that it does not make sense to daisy chain word clock inputs in the Boz 220 power dac modules, it would defeat the purpose of synchronization. He will build a word clock distribution black boz if needed.

G-0s rear:

http://cineramax.com/images/G-0s_Rear.jpg

I know for sure that Teac has been stuydying these diagrams, and Boz is willing to help "within reason" in helping make the best of these two systems talk to each other. I plan on walking over with boz who will be at the venetian this CES
to the Esoteric lounge and hammering this thing out once and for all. ;)

Some highe up at Esoteric pointed out that if the HD format war continues that they will come out with a Blue ray/hd dvd plus all of the other stuff Combi player to be shown a year from now.

So, therefor I will not go for the P-03UNI but for best CD/SACD transport (P-01) plus a second source for HT. Maybe a HT PC/server/BR+HDDVD-drives combo like this one:
http://www.vidabox.com/Products/MAX.htm

At the time real high end BR/HDDVD transports arrive we might download our movies direct from www...

That is commendable and I anxiously await to hear on your developments. Perhaps if it works to your satisfaction I can incorporate it on a future design.

That pc with 3 terabite sounds sweet. It even has TIVO once the cable card comes in in 2007 you will be able to record 400 hours of uncompressed HDTV. That is fantastic, as I am always purging my Dish network making room for more, I bet if I had that kind of capacity I would have 200 hours recorded by now.