http://www.tvpredictions.com/parsons120606.htm

Sony is counting on the new PlayStation 3 to boost acceptance of its Blu-ray HDTV DVD format. However, a leading industry executive says that's a losing game.

Richard Parsons, Time Warner's CEO, told the Credit Suisse conference this week that he doesn't think PS3 owners will use the Blu-ray player that's inside the game console.

"Do I think that the game console platform is really going to drive the conversion? I don't think so," Parsons said. "People get those things to play games, not watch movies."

Warner Bros., which is owned by Time Warner, has decided to release films in both Blu-ray and the Toshiba-backed HD-DVD. However, both formats have struggled due to consumer concerns over the format war and high player prices.

Sony, which plans to ship one million PlayStation 3 consoles by year's end, is hoping gamers will give the Blu-ray player a try. The company has bundled a Blu-ray version of Will Ferrell's Talladega Nights with the console, which is priced at $499 and $599.

To counter PS3, Microsoft has introduced a separate HD-DVD player attachment for its XBox 360.

In other remarks, Parsons said Time Warner will soon begin selling movies that are downloaded to kiosks in Wal-Mart stores and can be "burned" onto DVDs

http://www.tvpredictions.com/parsons120606.htm


he should stick too providing TWC with more HD channels, then maybe I'll watch less Blu-Rayz on my PS3.

He knows what is about to happen. If you have cable, and are watching some of the local threads, you know there is a ramp up in internet speeds, more channels, more DVRs, etc on the horizon(next month). Downloading is about to really take off. I do think Blu-Ray will survive long term as a storage medium, but long term. Not yet.

I don't care what this guy said about Sony but for me I don't buy any blueray disc from his company, Time Warner because they do not include any high quality audio track like Uncompressed audio or DTS HD lossless. So screw that!

I don't care what this guy said about Sony but for me I don't buy any blueray disc from his company, Time Warner because they do not include any high quality audio track like Uncompressed audio or DTS HD lossless. So screw that!
Did you stop to think that they haven't included them for a REASON... not just to spite Blu-ray?

All of the titles I have seen use HD30 and are released on BD25, which means that have to remove SOMETHING for them to fit. The alternative is to use a BD50 for 30gigs of data, which probably isn't the most cost effective solution since BD50's are more expensive to produce. There's also the issue of the layer switch, which could be part of the reason... but who knows?

Nobody has released a BD with a Dolby TrueHD track yet.

Did you stop to think that they haven't included them for a REASON... not just to spite Blu-ray? No I don't think there's any other reason, especially after that remark.

All of the titles I have seen use HD30 and are released on BD25, which means that have to remove SOMETHING for them to fit. The alternative is to use a BD50 for 30gigs of data, which probably isn't the most cost effective solution since BD50's are more expensive to produce. There's also the issue of the layer switch, which could be part of the reason... but who knows? And you don't see this as "spiting" BD at all? What Warner is doing is doing the HD-DVD encode first and then porting over to BD. The VC-1 video encode doesn't have be redone but they could at least add more features and lossless tracks either TrueHD or LPCM. But they chose not to. Case in point : Superman Returns on BD50.

Both BD and HD-DVD players have added memory, unlike DVD players, mandated by their individual associations to prevent such a bump when switching layers.

Nobody has released a BD with a Dolby TrueHD track yet. Legends of Jazz Showcase. So far the only BD disc with TrueHD.

The rest are either Dolby Digital 640 kpbs (Warner), LPCM (Sony & Disney), DTS (Lionsgate) and DTS HDMA (Fox).


fuad

To some extent, this is very true. PS3 will definitely help Blu-ray, no doubt about that, but it probably won't play a significant role in the long run. People buy game consoles to play games, it has always been that way and it will always stay that way. Everything else is just spin and wishful thinking.

the dude needs to be more thankful to the PS3 fans, I bought his BR Superman Returns though the movie sucks ass :rolleyes: .....the story, not the graphic

This guy has more to lose than just about anyone if any of the HD Disc formats take off. He is crossing his fingers that they fail so that his company can step in with downloads and on-demand type delivery systems. This is nothing but pure posturing and spin.

the dude needs to be more thankful to the PS3 fans, I bought his BR Superman Returns though the movie sucks ass .....the story, not the graphic

Petra you cracked me up hehehe :D

Drsiebling: I totally agreed. This guy should take care of his own business and add some lossless soundtrack in there. Or he will sell none :rolleyes:

He knows what is about to happen. If you have cable, and are watching some of the local threads, you know there is a ramp up in internet speeds, more channels, more DVRs, etc on the horizon(next month). Downloading is about to really take off. I do think Blu-Ray will survive long term as a storage medium, but long term. Not yet.

This could be more of a problem for HD-DVD, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If blu-ray has problems then the same applies for HD-DVD.

What people want is a way to record what they watch, now if we can get cable card, for the DIY market, let people record without restrictions, then yes I see cable doing a good thing. But most cable DVR's have major problems, and DRM as it is, some are storage restricted, software is buggy and not to mention some do not allow fast forward.

Then you have to worry about DRM, can I stream my download to other computers, or take it to a friends house. Downloading will be a good thing, but the restrictions and DRM might give it a crib death. Saying it will cause DOA of a format is just not realistic.

In other words another clueless CEO!

And you don't see this as "spiting" BD at all?

If WB wanted to "spite" BD....they wouldn't release in the format.

Nobody has released a BD with a Dolby TrueHD track yet.
...almost nobody. There are however far more BD releases with lossless audio; nearly all of them in fact. There are only a handful of HD DVD discs with lossess audio.

No I don't think there's any other reason, especially after that remark.

And you don't see this as "spiting" BD at all?

But surely if Warner put same movie and a TrueHD track on a BD50 and charged more for it, you'd accuse them of "spiting" BD with their outrageous pricing.

PS3 will definately help BR. If it wasn't for the PS3, I would have never thought about buying the BR players, at leats not for a long time. That the PS3 can play BR movies is a HUGE bonus, and I will use it a lot. Same thing happened when the PS2 releases, and I started buying DVD's like crazy. I'm doing the same with BR. I know that DVD didn't have competition, but the sales increased a lot. Once sony starts keeping the shipments up with the demand, BR sales are guaranteed to go up.

He knows what is about to happen. If you have cable, and are watching some of the local threads, you know there is a ramp up in internet speeds, more channels, more DVRs, etc on the horizon(next month). Downloading is about to really take off. I do think Blu-Ray will survive long term as a storage medium, but long term. Not yet.
Kingdom of Heaven is over 42 GB on Blu-ray, and the bitrate is at 24 mpeg2, compared to shandard HD satellite/cable bitrates that run from 12 to 16, and current 4-7GB HD movie files that can be downloaded to X-Box 360 over a timespan of 10 hours, only at 720p. Downloading is getting better, but it's nowhere near competitive with the disc-based HD formats. The worst titles on HD DVD or Blu-ray are still better than broadcast, and how do you expect an HD movie file to look that great when it's smaller than the SD DVD version? Things may change far into the future, but for now depending on downloads or even DVRs is misguided.

It's obvious HD-DVD is the better format and will be cheaper for everyone in the long run. People need to stop having a hard-on about 20 extra gigs of storage.

It's obvious HD-DVD is the better format and will be cheaper for everyone in the long run. People need to stop having a hard-on about 20 extra gigs of storage.

Why is it a better format. PLEASE explain. I have both, and would love to hear what you have to say.

This is the same company whose stupidity managed to run Atari's monopoly into the ground

And he's far more interested in selling HD on their cable networks than on home video,

It's obvious HD-DVD is the better format and will be cheaper for everyone in the long run. People need to stop having a hard-on about 20 extra gigs of storage.

I think this quote was almost as stupid as Parsons's quote. Times change, and Sony was smart to embrace the change and see it coming. I think Blu-ray will ultimately help the PS3 AND help blu-ray. There are plenty of 20-30 yr olds who grew up on video games that will use the ps3 as more than a game console (they probably watch movies besides just play video games.. duh..). This is just a case of an old man not seeing the times changing.. afterall, this is Time Warner...

EDIT: To add.. look at what's happened to AOL since the merger. They sure know their stuff when it comes to technology.. :rolleyes:

I bought my PS3 expressly for Blu-Ray. I don't think I'll ever play a game on it.

I will however, transfer HD Mpegs that I record with my PC over the network to it's hard drive so it will also serve double-duty as a HDPVR of sorts.

-Brian

...almost nobody. There are however far more BD releases with lossless audio; nearly all of them in fact. There are only a handful of HD DVD discs with lossess audio.

I have heard HD DVD has the transfer rate to handle high-bitrate video and uncompressed audio.

The issue for BD is that there's an additional licensing cost associated with TrueHD tracks. So, the studio is saving a few cents on each disc. Sad, but true.

With the relatively poor marketing these formats are getting (the big Thanksgiving ads didn't mention HD-DVD or Blu-ray discs/players once!) and the fact that many are bare bones or titles of spotty interest at best one may come to the conclusion that the studios don't want or don't care if these formats really succeed.

The real money, they see, is in VOD. You then own nothing, and they control everything. Quality and convenience be damned.

I bought mine mainly for Blu-ray, though there's an ulterior motive. I bought a Samsung for $499 a couple months ago and realized that I can get a PS3 for the same price with the added benefit of playing games here and there. The downside to the PS3 is the lack of a remote (which will be remedied sooner than later) and the fact that it's a little noiser than a typical BD player. The lack of an LCD on the front is a small loss, but I can deal with that thanks to the nice OSD.

Since the Sammy and PS3 are equally adept at Blu-ray playback, this was an easy decision.

I have heard HD DVD has the transfer rate to handle high-bitrate video and uncompressed audio.

The issue for BD is that there's an additional licensing cost associated with TrueHD tracks. So, the studio is saving a few cents on each disc. Sad, but true.This seems to be backwards. It is Blu-ray with the higher bitrate limitations. Handling full lossless (like 24/48) for HD DVD without affecting the video is difficult in some cases.

Are you saying that TrueHD has an extra cost on BD that it doesn't have on HD DVD? My impression is that PCM should be cheaper to put on than TrueHD from a licensing standpoint for both formats, but I haven't heard anybody confirm that.

--Darin

Why is it a better format. PLEASE explain. I have both, and would love to hear what you have to say.

Here's my 2 cents based on the current state of the format war... of course, things can and will change...

---

Storage: Score 1 for Blu-ray.

Reason:
HD DVD discs are typically 30gigs. Blu-ray discs are mostly 25gig, though we're seeing a few 50gig discs emerging over the last couple months.

---

Durability: Score 1 for Blu-ray

Reason:
HD DVD discs are more scratch prone. Blu-ray discs have a scratch resistant coating, which means they're more durable. On the flipside, HD DVD's are manufactured using time-tested materials. It is unknown whether Blu-ray discs could suffer from "laser-rot" or things of that nature.

---

Manufacturing Cost: Score 2 for HD DVD (yes, two)

Reason:
HD DVD's are MUCH cheaper to manufacture due to the fact that existing DVD replication equipment can be upgraded to mfr HD DVD. If there was a price war between the two formats, HD DVD could maintain a profit at a lower price point.

In the race to win the mass-market, it's all about price/performance. DVD players took off once they reached $299. DVD sales soared once the average disc was $15.

---

Hardware: Score 0.5 for Blu-ray (yes, half a point)

Reason:
Blu-ray players are currently available in 4 flavors (Sony, Samsung, PS3, Panasonic) from 3 mfr's (with 1 more, Pioneer, coming onboard any day now). HD DVD players are available in 3 flavors (Xbox360 add-on, Toshiba, RCA) from 3 mfr's. While the hardware is superior on the Blu-ray side, it's also FAR more expensive. PS3 doesn't yet count as a competitor to the $499 HD DVD player due to extremely limited supply. The $199 Xbox360 HD DVD add-on counter balances the PS3's BD playback somewhat.

Additional CE's on the HD DVD side and/or price drops from the Blu-ray side can and will cause this score to change.

--

Authoring Tools (Cost and learning curve): Score 1 for HD DVD

Reason:
HD DVD's authoring tools are FAR superior to BD in terms of ease-of-use. Search for info regarding iHD vs BD-J and you'll see what I mean. BD-J is capable of more tricks, but it costs money to develop and test.

---

Sustained Transfer Rates: Score 1 for Blu-ray.

Reason:
Blu-ray has a higher sustained transfer rate than HD DVD. This isn't really an issue unless you're using MPEG2 for video on BD50 (we've seen how poorly MPEG2 seems to fare on BD25). It does give studios in advantage, since they can use uncompressed multi-channel LPCM tracks which saves them the cost of licensing advanced audio codecs.


---


Recordable/Rewritable discs and hardware: Score 1 for Blu-ray.

Reason:
Recordable and rewritable drives and media are fairly easy to come by, though still pricey. Recordable/Rewritable HD DVD drives and media are practically MIA.

---

Marketing: Tie

Reason:
HD DVD has an advantage in terms of marketing since people know what "HD" and "DVD are. On the flip side, the Blu-ray camp has spent a lot more money on advertising. Thus far, HD DVD is winning based on "word of mouth" and familiarity, but that could change in 2007 depending on how the two camps play their cards.

---

Game consoles: Tie

Reason: Xbox360 has a HD DVD add-on, while PS3 has Blu-ray built-in. Typical accessory sales for a console is 10% on the upper end. People who buy the HD DVD add-on are buying it for one purpose: MOVIES. PS3 has Blu-ray built-in, though people won't necessarily buy it FOR movies.

---

Video codecs/quality: Score 1 for HD DVD (for the time being)

Reason:
Studios are using the inferior MPEG2 codec for releases on Blu-ray. Almost all HD DVD's are using VC-1. VC-1 on HD30 still leaves room for supplements on most discs. MPEG2 on BD50 can be a tight fit if the bitrates of the feature are high enough to create a stable image.

---

Audio codecs/quality: Tie

Reason:
A number of "multi-platform" titles are using Dolby Digital or DTS tracks, while exclusives are using LPCM (on Blu-ray) and Dolby TrueHD (on HD DVD). The quality of these these audio presentations are all fantastic. Thus far, there isn't a clear winner.

---

Quality of Films (themselves, NOT PQ): Score 1 for HD DVD (for the forseeable future...)

Reason:
The launch lineup for Blu-ray is lackluster at best. Many films border on lame (i.e. XXX), while others are titles that have been rereleased on SD DVD a zillion times (i.e. T2, Stargate). HD DVD, on the other hand, has a great selection that appeals to a broad spectrum of viewers, including: Cascablanca, Goodfellas, The Fast and the Furious, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, Batman Begins, Riddick, Serenity, Apollo 13, etc.

No studio seems as gung-ho about HD as Universal. If Sony and Co would spend a little less on traditional marketing and put that towards releasing some of their most prized films (i.e. Bond) on Blu-ray using top-flight codecs, things would look much different.

---

So, the tally of the tape right now (IMHO) stacks up as follows:
- HD DVD: 5
- Blu-ray: 4.5


Both have their pros and cons and it's far too early in the game to declare a winner. There are things I like about both formats. Sadly, the two sides couldn't find common ground and us consumers are stuck in the middle. As such, I am careful not to invest too much of my hard-earned cash into either format. I'm going to stick to "must-haves" in HD. Everything else will be spent on SD DVD.

Let's hope that the status quo doesn't remain, else BOTH HD formats turn out like SACD and DVD-Audio.

"I will however, transfer HD Mpegs that I record with my PC over the network to it's hard drive so it will also serve double-duty as a HDPVR of sorts."

With the puny HD's in the consoles, you wont be transferring for long and will soon fill up that teeny-tiny hard drive.

"I will however, transfer HD Mpegs that I record with my PC over the network to it's hard drive so it will also serve double-duty as a HDPVR of sorts."

With the puny HD's in the consoles, you wont be transferring for long and will soon fill up that teeny-tiny hard drive.

Good thing you can upgrade the hard drive with little effort.

Do you guys have any kind of reading comprehension skills before posting a misleading title or more FUD.

"Do I think that the game console platform is really going to drive the conversion? I don't think so," Parsons said. "People get those things to play games, not watch movies."

The game console. Not PS3, but PS3 and XBox add-on. Neither will drive the conversion to HD. Not enable one format to one up another.

Warner Bros., which is owned by Time Warner, has decided to release films in both Blu-ray and the Toshiba-backed HD-DVD. However, both formats have struggled due to consumer concerns over the format war and high player prices.

This article is not making any case against Blu-ray. It is about acceptance of an HD successor to DVD. The vast majority of PS3 users will buy movies for the player because they can. In most cases, PS3 owners are going to realize that they have a high-def player before they even care to look for one.

BigMikeATL, check your facts. Example: Did you remember the Phillips player?
Talk about some crazy math, but Ok.
How many points for software(exclusive studio support)????

I honestly don't think ps3 owners are going to be investing in BD just because they can. Sure, people might check it out and for those who bought one specifically to watch Blu-ray then yeah it makes sense. However, Parsons is absolutely correct that most people will buy a ps3 to play games. BD will probably go the way of UMD as far as the ps3 is concerned, maybe not as badly but I will definitely be surprised if the ps3's BD factor lives up to its potential. You have to remember that a majority of the general public are perfectly content with DVD and simply having a player isn't going to change that. It's like having a small, fuel-efficient car along with a Hummer, people aren't just going to dump the compact simply because it's more practical. Maybe not the best analogy but you get the point.

This guy has more to lose than just about anyone if any of the HD Disc formats take off. He is crossing his fingers that they fail so that his company can step in with downloads and on-demand type delivery systems. This is nothing but pure posturing and spin.


Agreed.
Also, TW has patented a dual BD/HD-DVD disk that they are trying to push.

It is funny that we have so many PS3 owners around here that play BDs.
But I guess that wouldn't make much difference for BD. :rolleyes:

The PS3 will not help BD at all. It might kill BD since it allows BD movies to be dumped so easily. Pirates have already made copies of a BD movie and have been able to play burned copies. Soon, they'll have it working off their hard drives and all the work put into copy protections will be in vain.

BigMikeATL, check your facts. Example: Did you remember the Phillips player?

Sorry, forgot one player.

Talk about some crazy math, but Ok.
How many points for software(exclusive studio support)????

What does exclusive support mean if the studios are releasing titles at a snail's pace (i.e. Disney)? Releasing a couple bottom-feeder titles is hardly what I would call "support."

...The real money, they see, is in VOD. You then own nothing, and they control everything. Quality and convenience be damned.

Problem is that VOD isn't nearly as popular as physical media. Personally, I don't know anyone that says "Ooh, the picture quality of your Hi-Def VOD download is amazing!"

Hi-Def VOD would only work if they had a "locker" type system, where you can "purchase" a film, store it locally on a hard drive in some sort of set top box, and watch it from other set top boxes in the home. The bandwidth required for Hi-Def VOD is immense. Home networked STB's would allow you to download the film and stream it locally, thereby reducing bandwidth requirements on the head-end.

The "locker" functionality would allow you to access this content from a friends house or something like that. It would be tricky since you'd need some sort of media access key, but it could be done.

It's possible we could see something like this from Apple when they launch their iTB device next year.

In any case, it's still nowhere near as convenient as owning physical media. I don't think it will go away any time soon. People were predicting the death of the printed book and magazine, touting ebooks as "the future." ebooks never took off due the restrictions and limitations... I can see the same issues with VOD.

What does exclusive support mean if the studios are releasing titles at a snail's pace (i.e. Disney)? Releasing a couple bottom-feeder titles is hardly what I would call "support."
ok... Nice math!

The PS3 will not help BD at all. It might kill BD since it allows BD movies to be dumped so easily. Pirates have already made copies of a BD movie and have been able to play burned copies. Soon, they'll have it working off their hard drives and all the work put into copy protections will be in vain.

Gee willikers!!! I would really like to see any proof you have of those claims. :eek:

Even if you were able to rip a BD, you'd have to recompress it, making it look like crap or be so large that it's difficult to transfer. So, piracy isn't really a concern.

If anything PS3 might tick off other hardware manufacturers who can't afford to sell their players at a loss.

I plan on getting a PS3. I don't usually buy DVD's but I rent. When I get the PS3 I will only rent Blu-Ray (unless the title is not available). I will use the PS3 as my player probably for 2-3 years or until stand alone players are around $150.

I don’t plan on getting an Xbox360 but if I did I would not get the HD-DVD add on, rather spend twice as much for the stand alone player. The same goes for the PS3 if it was $400 then an add on for $200 wouldn't buy the add on.

I have heard HD DVD has the transfer rate to handle high-bitrate video and uncompressed audio.
The issue for BD is that there's an additional licensing cost associated with TrueHD tracks. So, the studio is saving a few cents on each disc. Sad, but true.
Come now Mike. There has been what, five HD DVD titles released with TrueHD and one Blu-ray title with TrueHD? I hardly say that Blu-ray is saving a few cents by missing out on TrueHD when HD DVD is pretty much doing the exact same thing.
Regardless of whether or not you feel PCM (not specifically saying you Mike) is a "waste of space" the fact remains that it is lossless.
There are already over 15 titles on Blu-ray with lossless DTS-HD Master Audio.
Over 90% of Blu-ray releases have lossless audio, whether it be PCM, Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio and less than 10% of HD DVD releases have lossless audio.
It makes this rating here seem VERY off.

Audio codecs/quality: Tie

Reason:
A number of "multi-platform" titles are using Dolby Digital or DTS tracks, while exclusives are using LPCM (on Blu-ray) and Dolby TrueHD (on HD DVD). The quality of these these audio presentations are all fantastic. Thus far, there isn't a clear winner.
Exclusives on Blu-ray are using PCM and DTS-HD Master Audio, whilst exclusives on HD DVD are predominantly using lossy Dolby Digital Plus.

The game console. Not PS3, but PS3 and XBox add-on. Neither will drive the conversion to HD. Not enable one format to one up another.

This article is not making any case against Blu-ray. It is about acceptance of an HD successor to DVD. The vast majority of PS3 users will buy movies for the player because they can. In most cases, PS3 owners are going to realize that they have a high-def player before they even care to look for one.

I hardly think this topic is pure BS. Perhaps your reading comprehension skills are lacking, but it can be interpreted differently. The context of the quotes are in regards to asking the CEO about the PS3. Perhaps the article could have done a Michael Moore special by bringing up a topic and merely inserting Parsons's quote in where it fit, but I don't see that being the case. Let's break it down

"Do I think that the game console platform is really going to drive the conversion? I don't think so,"
That can be interpreted many different ways. Keep in mind that the author presents this w/ the context of discussing the PS3.. So, he's saying that he doesn't think the PS3 is going to drive the conversion to HD/blu-ray. That statement/position is clearly debatable, and I think it's wrong. Let's look at the next line..

"People get those things to play games, not watch movies." Yet another flat out wrong statement. Keep in mind that you referenced the Xbox add-on. I see absolutely no reference or even hint in the article that he's also talking about anything X360 related. The context is about the PS3.. Perhaps w/ just the previous quote you could argue that he didn't think that the ps3 would make a significant enough impact, but in this quote he thinks it will have zero impact.

Either way, if you read between the lines, he clearly is making a case against blu-ray, regarding the PS3, saying it will not help the adoption of blu-ray and adoption of HD. You can try and argue that, but it seems pretty clear that plenty of people are in fact using the ps3 as a blu-ray movie player, which helps the adoption of blu-ray.

"Good thing you can upgrade the hard drive with little effort. "
Methinks the 2.5" hard drive will severly limit your capacity options for storing HD ts's to the internal drive.

Not only do I think this guy knows better....shouldn't they be sending me a refund check for the worse than most sd dvd P/Q on Superman Returns.....and work on finding enough space on hd dvd to add DD-HD to all Warner hd dvd titles...and PCM on the 50gb BD's?

"I will however, transfer HD Mpegs that I record with my PC over the network to it's hard drive so it will also serve double-duty as a HDPVR of sorts."

With the puny HD's in the consoles, you wont be transferring for long and will soon fill up that teeny-tiny hard drive.

thank god i have a 500gb external hdd. i record all of my hd shows from my comcast box to either of my computers, transfer it over to the external hdd, and plug it in the the ps3. problem solved.

I have purchased 5 movies in past 10 years (all were $2.99). With PS3 that I am getting in 6 days, I have already purchase 6 movies and I plan to build up library of BD's.

I would have never purchased stadalone BD player until the price would drop to half of current prices, and I would have never purchased PS3 until there were more games and price drop.

The fact that PS3 is an great BD player and game console, at great price, is why I have purchased it.

So yes, it has already worked for me and judging from the posts of other users here, it has worked for them as well.

War is over, Sony has won.

I have purchased 5 movies in past 10 years (all were $2.99). With PS3 that I am getting in 6 days, I have already purchase 6 movies and I plan to build up library of BD's.

I would have never purchased stadalone BD player until the price would drop to half of current prices, and I would have never purchased PS3 until there were more games and price drop.

The fact that PS3 is an great BD player and game console, at great price, is why I have purchased it.

So yes, it has already worked for me and judging from the posts of other users here, it has worked for them as well.

War is over, Sony has won.

It was a nice post right up until the end. It is almost as if, even if fan boys (on either side) try to contain there longing to post from there very one sided and narrow perspectives, it always manages to surface.

I have only been able to find a couple people in the HD DVD/BD forums who manage to be objective. I think both formats have matured nicely and I support both. By no means has either side one. By no means has the PS3 had this "table turning" effect on BD software sales. The ware isn't over until you will not be able to find one of the formats on shelves and that will be quite a while from now.

you are right dpowers, but that is already starting to happen somewhat. neither best buy (magnolia) nor home theater store carry hd-dvd players.

you are right dpowers, but that is already starting to happen somewhat. neither best buy (magnolia) nor home theater store carry hd-dvd players.

When do you think HD DVD will be dead? Mid 2007? or end of 2007? When will the 2G BD players be out?

It was a nice post right up until the end. It is almost as if, even if fan boys (on either side) try to contain there longing to post from there very one sided and narrow perspectives, it always manages to surface.

I have only been able to find a couple people in the HD DVD/BD forums who manage to be objective. I think both formats have matured nicely and I support both. By no means has either side one. By no means has the PS3 had this "table turning" effect on BD software sales. The ware isn't over until you will not be able to find one of the formats on shelves and that will be quite a while from now.
i very much doubt that war will be over soon, literally... however, seeing how good PS3 is as BD player, i do feel that ultimatly, it will win. Of course, broad industry support from both hardware vendors and movie studios will help BD camp greatly.

Very little doubt that we will see both formats on the shelves for at least 2-3 years from now.

Honestly, nothing against HD-DVD or Toshiba or MS. I started "supporting" Sony/PS3 only after I noticed soooooo many posts bashing Sony for apsolutly no reason. But I dont bash HD-DVD or 360.

the ps3 will not have that big of an impact on the hd scene as some here would believe. the people i know that bought a ps3 (not to sell it) really doesnt care about blu-ray. the same way that the majority of people that bought the 360 dont care about hd-dvd. of the 3 people i know with a ps3, theyre planning on using it as a gaming machine. the average person bought these consoles for games. of course theres a niche market for hd formats and gamers, but its not the average gamer.

the ps3 will not have that big of an impact on the hd scene as some here would believe. the people i know that bought a ps3 (not to sell it) really doesnt care about blu-ray. the same way that the majority of people that bought the 360 dont care about hd-dvd. of the 3 people i know with a ps3, theyre planning on using it as a gaming machine. the average person bought these consoles for games. of course theres a niche market for hd formats and gamers, but its not the average gamer.

For the 360 you have to buy the add-on. For the PS3 you don't, you just go out a buy a movie. I know it costs more, but most people like everything out-the-box even though it costs more. Regardless that they cost the same once you buy the add-on for the 360. And on top of that the sound out of the add-on for DD+ sux. I stopped watching movies that only have DD+, or I get the same movie on blu-ray if it's available.

Integration is nice and a plus (for some), though the consensus amongst gamers is that they would rather have a PS3 that's $100-200 cheaper w/o the Blu-ray drive.

Most people buy a game system to play games, though they have the option of buying movies. If they buy the 360 HD DVD add-on, they are buying it FOR movies. When you consider that the average attach rate for accessories is 10% and that the Xbox360 has sold over 6 million units, that means that we could see 600000 HD DVD add-ons sold by this time next year. PS3 will undoubtedly sell more systems than that (upwards of 2 million, by many estimates), but the question remains: How many of those 2 million will buy Blu-ray movies? Sure, they'll sell a few here and there to just about everyone, but how many people will choose Blu-ray discs over standard DVD's, especially when there is such a huge price difference between SD DVD and BD?

Either way, I'm willing to bet my bank account that we'll have a new Xbox360 system with built-in HD DVD for $399 come Q4 2007.

Integration is nice and a plus (for some), though the consensus amongst gamers is that they would rather have a PS3 that's $100-200 cheaper w/o the Blu-ray drive.

Be that as it may I think it's divided the 'gamer' camp into two groups:

Those who balk at the Blu-ray 'tax' being levied, and thus will forgo the system until some future date, and those that whatever their feelings on the price, plan to own and make use of the BD playback in PS3.

Here's a poll I conducted on a PS3 forum, and the feel right now is 90%+ intend to purchase (or have already) BD content.

http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=66033

You'll not of course the extreme neutrality of the questions; I go out of my way to provide polls which do not 'steer' the respondent and allow for maximum range of response choice.

So I would say that BD Playback may be bad for PS3 in the short-run, due to turning some people off, but PS3 is very good for BD in the short run, because those early adopters that do buy it... will use it.

Yes but hardly a site with a bunch of sony fan boys (and I can say this cause i post there and have read much of the content ) will show you what the average ps3 owner will do .

Its just like how sony fans want to say hey no one is going to buy a hd-dvd add on for the 360 and then when they do buy lots of them they say hey its just the hardcore .

There will be a percentage of people who buy bluray movie content for the ps3. Most likely silghtly higher than the add on sales . However don't try and pawn off a thread on a hardcore sony forum as proof that a majority (let alone 90%) of the ps3 owners will buy bluray movies and or continue to buy them after a few inital sales.

I'm sure if right when the psp was released we asked those same people in your poll if they would buy umd movies the number would be the same as it is for bluray movies. However we see that fate.

We're talking here about the 'hardcore,' are we not? There is no PS3 owner for the first couple million consoles that will *not* be a hardcore 'fanboy' of the system, and it is in the early years of the system that t's effect on the format war will matter.

And no you don't post there, because you've been banned from the Sony section if memory serves. ;)

Also I think even among the most ardent of BD detractors, we can all see very clear difference between UMB and BD. It has much more in common with PS2 : DVD than it does PSP:UMD.

With the relatively poor marketing these formats are getting (the big Thanksgiving ads didn't mention HD-DVD or Blu-ray discs/players once!) and the fact that many are bare bones or titles of spotty interest at best one may come to the conclusion that the studios don't want or don't care if these formats really succeed.

The real money, they see, is in VOD. You then own nothing, and they control everything. Quality and convenience be damned.

VOD for the masses is still years away for HD movies, at least over the Internet. Last mile connectivity suitable for such applications just isn't there for the vast majority of people. 50% of Americans are still getting their Internet access over dial-up according to the GAO report from April of this year. Cable carriers like TWC will have their existing cable networks to offer VOD on, but again, that's far from HD for the masses.

Furthermore, people find value in physical media that they don't find in downloads. It's why the paperless office still hasn't taken off in this age of Blackberries and PDFs. It's why eBooks don't sell as well as actual books. MP3's and digital music are an anomaly, but one that can be explained: most of us were trading MP3's illegally long before the iPod came out, so the transition to digital music from CD's was an easy one, even if we were buying them from the Apple Store instead of trading them on Napster to put in our nifty new players.

We're talking here about the 'hardcore,' are we not? There is no PS3 owner for the first couple million consoles that will *not* be a hardcore 'fanboy' of the system, and it is in the early years of the system that t's effect on the format war will matter.

And no you don't post there, because you've been banned from the Sony section if memory serves. ;)

Also I think even among the most ardent of BD detractors, we can all see very clear difference between UMB and BD. It has much more in common with PS2 : DVD than it does PSP:UMD.


This is certianly not true .

I know many people who hae bought ps3s already with no intention of buying bluray discs. They are hardcore gamers and just want to play games on thier systems. These are the same people that stood in line for the 360 , ps2 , xbox , gamecube , dreamcast and so on .


Yea i was banned because of people on that forum that still up untill the day the system released believed that sony was putting a g80 in instead of the g7x based gpu . Along with countless other fanboy arguements . I still post on that site though quite often (though its banned on the work servers and i've been to sick at home to do much) , however just reading the sony forums will show you what a peanut gallery it is

As for ps2 and dvd i see no connection to ps3 adn bluray. The ps2 came out in 2000 . Dvds came out in 1997. They were on the market for 3 years before the ps2 came out. There was also no format war and the advantages over the previous format were many and pronounced .

Umd and bluray are much more similar than many sony / bluray fans want to admit and in some ways bluray has a much steeper climb ahead of it.

with 20m or so units world wide umd has failed and there was nothing going up against it . Bluray has hd-dvd that matches it advantage for advantage and in some ways goes beyond .

People continue to say just wait. i don't understand what we are waiting for. Every day we wait its more hd-dvd sales . The hd-dvd software will continue to sell at a faster clip , the players / add ons will continue to sell and more and more studios will loook its way. All it will take is one big studio to jump on hd-dvd's bandwagon even as a supporter of both and it will just create a snow ball effect

If you know PS3 owners that aren't interested in Blu-ray, well, then you know PS3 owners that are not interested in Blu-ray. But if a movie they love comes out on the format, don't be surprised if they end up purchasing it on BD.

This is certianly not true .

I know many people who hae bought ps3s already with no intention of buying bluray discs. They are hardcore gamers and just want to play games on thier systems. These are the same people that stood in line for the 360 , ps2 , xbox , gamecube , dreamcast and so on .

Hi. Hardcore gamer here. I bought my PS3 to play movies and games. There's nothing "hardcore" about launch titles for new consoles, and there never has been. Is there a title for the PS3 worth owning other than Resistance: Fall of Man?


As for ps2 and dvd i see no connection to ps3 adn bluray. The ps2 came out in 2000 . Dvds came out in 1997. They were on the market for 3 years before the ps2 came out. There was also no format war and the advantages over the previous format were many and pronounced.

That's not to say that there wasn't a fight between dueling formats before the DVD standards were adopted. Phillips and Sony were pushing ther MultiMedia Compact Disc (MMCD) storage satandard with Toshiba, Time-Warner, Matsushita Electric, Hitachi, Mitsubishi Electric, Pioneer, Thomson, and JVC backing Super Density disc (SD). It was IBM who brought the two camps together and avoided a format war between the two camps. Many were hoping the same thing would happen with HD DVD and BD, but the tables are turned. Sony got the content providers and hardware people on their side.

Umd and bluray are much more similar than many sony / bluray fans want to admit and in some ways bluray has a much steeper climb ahead of it.

I would love to hear this point elaborated, though it is ultimately irrelevant.

with 20m or so units world wide umd has failed and there was nothing going up against it . Bluray has hd-dvd that matches it advantage for advantage and in some ways goes beyond .

UMD has not failed, and anyone who says so is a fool. It has been a failure for selling movies, but it continues to sell quite well for game content. Furthermore, it is the movie studios who set the pricing for their UMD movies, not Sony. Charging $19 for a movie on UMD when you can buy the DVD for the same or less and then convert the content to Mpeg 4 and play it from a memory card was assinine, but blaming that idiocy on Sony is misplacing the blame.

People continue to say just wait. i don't understand what we are waiting for. Every day we wait its more hd-dvd sales . The hd-dvd software will continue to sell at a faster clip , the players / add ons will continue to sell and more and more studios will loook its way. All it will take is one big studio to jump on hd-dvd's bandwagon even as a supporter of both and it will just create a snow ball effect

I'm not waiting. I'm buying BD's and enjoying them on my PS3. They look great, and my biggest complaint right now is lack of a real remote that I can use in my theater. I'm waiting for some real blockbuster content (Hello Disney/Pixar, WB, and Sony!), but there's enough out there to keep my happy and more coming. The temptation to buy a HD DVD player is still there, but it's decreasing.

Well, UMD was supposed to be "Universal", which would entail the possibility of use with music, burnable discs, etc.

As far as Hollywood is concerned, UMD is a failure. Most studios have stopped producing UMD movies.

The only company using it is Sony. Game publishers HAVE to use is because they don't have a choice. It's like saying "Nintendo's proprietary GameBoy cartridges are a success." Game publishers have two choices: Make GameBoy games using Nintendo proprietary cartridge, or don't make GameBoy games.

Sony's licensing fees for discs and UMD tools are so out of whack that studios had to charge $15-30 for UMD discs if they wanted to make a profit. If the movies were $8-15 each from the get go, I think more people would have bought the movies.

Sony did the same thing with Memory Stick... and nobody uses memory stick except Sony and occasionally Samsung.

If BD players and movies remain this high a year from now, Blu-ray will go nowhere. The average consumer will NOT pay $30-35 for Fox movies on Blu-ray. Period. HD DVD is in a far better position to achieve mass market pricing on both the hardware and software fronts.

If BD players and movies remain this high a year from now, Blu-ray will go nowhere. The average consumer will NOT pay $30-35 for Fox movies on Blu-ray. Period. HD DVD is in a far better position to achieve mass market pricing on both the hardware and software fronts.

Even on DVDWars, the average price of BD films is below that of HD-DVD films. So, if pricing is your argument, how is HD-DVD better positioned on the software front? You seem pretty passionate about it.

The only HV DVDs that I have found to be more expensive has been the hybrids. I think software is pretty much a wash. Pricing is so similar that it doesn't make much difference to either side.

HD DVD discs are based on DVD technology. Thus, DVD replication equipment can be upgraded to produce HD DVD for $100000-250000. When you figure that DVD disc replication technology is refined enough that the yields (good vs defective discs) are extremely high and that the replication hardware cost is low, it means that discs are MUCH cheaper to mass produce.

Taking that a step further, realize that there are hundreds of DVD replication lines around the world. Blu-ray, on the other hard, require all new equipment and all new replication lines. These cost over $1000000 each and have far lower yields when compared to HD DVD.

This means that HD DVD discs are more profitable than Blu-ray. The HD DVD camp could do 3 things with these additional per-disc profit: 1) Pocket the difference, 2) Use part of the profits to subsidize the hardware, or 3) Reduce the price of the discs themselves.

It appears that they have opted for #2. How else would they have 1st and 2nd gen players for $499 and an Xbox360 add-on for $199 (which includes a copy of King Kong)?

If the two camps got into a price war selling movies, HD DVD would stay in the black a whole lot longer.

I think that logic is faulty, because it assumes that the same players in the HD-DVD camp making hardware are the same players making software. The beneficiaries of your scenario are the studios and/or authoring companies and them alone.

Meanwhile, it is Toshiba that is taking the hit to subsidize the manufacture of both the standalone players and the HD-DVD add-ons. They aren't making any bucks off the replication process. So why do they do it? Because overall they stand to make a ton off of the royalties if their format succeeds.

Whatever the case, we were discussing consumer pricing, and again... Blu-ray discs are on the whole cheaper than HD-DVD by an average of about $4 per disc.

Well, UMD was supposed to be "Universal", which would entail the possibility of use with music, burnable discs, etc.

Entail? It might imply it, but Sony coined the term and it means whatever they want it to mean. They certailny never had any intent for anyone but Sony to be able to write the media. They made that perfectly clear to Hollywood and gaming studios when they were concerned about piracy.

As far as Hollywood is concerned, UMD is a failure. Most studios have stopped producing UMD movies.

I believe I already said that. What I'm trying to make clear is that people who say "UMD is a failure" are incorrect on the whole. UMD isn't a failure. UMD movies are. UMD discs are still being manufactured and sold. That may be a pedantic difference for some, but it's important.

The only company using it is Sony. Game publishers HAVE to use is because they don't have a choice. It's like saying "Nintendo's proprietary GameBoy cartridges are a success." Game publishers have two choices: Make GameBoy games using Nintendo proprietary cartridge, or don't make GameBoy games.

What is your definition of success, then? UMD has no competitors on the PSP, and it's virtually the only way to play games. Sony double/triple dips on fees for every disc produced. To me, whether a format is used or not, and how much money it makes for the owner is what determines if it is a success, and by that measure it has been a success. Much like BD will be a success for Sony, regardless of whether it continues to exist as the format for movies or not. It will be around for games on the PS3 for at least the next 4-5 years, and if PS3 software sales figures are anything like PS2 software sales, Sony will make a significant amount of money, because again, they are double/triple dipping for every disc manufactured.

Sony's licensing fees for discs and UMD tools are so out of whack that studios had to charge $15-30 for UMD discs if they wanted to make a profit. If the movies were $8-15 each from the get go, I think more people would have bought the movies.

I find that hard to believe, but I suppose it's not outside the realm of possibility. But if they were so out of whack, why did the studios even decid to play?

If BD players and movies remain this high a year from now, Blu-ray will go nowhere. The average consumer will NOT pay $30-35 for Fox movies on Blu-ray. Period. HD DVD is in a far better position to achieve mass market pricing on both the hardware and software fronts.

If DVD players and movies remain this high a year from now, DVD will go nowhere. The average consumer will NOT pay $30-35 for Fox movies on DVD. Period. :D

I don't know about you, but I remember DVD player pricing back in 1997 being $1000. Software wasn't cheap either. Technically, due to inflation, BD and HD DVD are cheaper than their DVD launch counterparts.

HD DVD is in a far better position to achieve mass market pricing on both the hardware and software fronts.

How so? More players/software sold? Cost of entry? Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that the cheaper hardware is going to help win this war. However, it's clear that the second gen HD-DVD hardware didn't get any cheaper, and it lost functionality. Sony isn't the only one taking a hit on hardware sales in this format war, and I think Toshiba realized they couldn't keep taking that hit.

Of course, until both camps release their sales numbers for both hardware and software, we won't really now how well either camp is doing. Both of them are understandably tight lipped about hom many units they've shipped, but right now the proof is in the pudding we haven't yet seen. But I do think that the PS3 will help the BD camp. It certainly won't hurt.

I think that logic is faulty, because it assumes that the same players in the HD-DVD camp making hardware are the same players making software. The beneficiaries of your scenario are the studios and/or authoring companies and them alone.

Meanwhile, it is Toshiba that is taking the hit to subsidize the manufacture of both the standalone players and the HD-DVD add-ons. They aren't making any bucks off the replication process. So why do they do it? Because overall they stand to make a ton off of the royalties if their format succeeds.

Whatever the case, we were discussing consumer pricing, and again... Blu-ray discs are on the whole cheaper than HD-DVD by an average of about $4 per disc.

Toshiba and Microsoft stand to make big bucks from patent royalties from discs, players, content creation software/hardware, etc. Since the discs themselves are far cheaper to produce and these two companies are making royalties from the patents they hold (paid by the studios), they are using it to subsidize the hardware.

With lower hardware prices, more people are likely to buy... and in turn, buy more movies. The studios sell more discs, increase revenue, hardware mfr's increase royalties, replicators produce more discs, and everyone wins. As sales increase, so does competition and with it pressure to reduce prices. This is called Critical Mass.

It happened once DVD players hit $299. People started buying in greater volumes, more hardware mfr's wanted a piece of the action and began creating players. It's capatalism at it's best...

On the subject of replication, patent holders DO make money from these facilities, be it from the replication equipment, for each disc produced, or both.

...
I find that hard to believe, but I suppose it's not outside the realm of possibility. But if they were so out of whack, why did the studios even decid to play?

Because the initial attach rate was high. Almost everyone I know bought 1-2 movies on the "oh, that's cool" factor. Studios saw these attach rates and didn't want to miss an opportunity. Unfortunately, the UMD discs were priced as high or higher than their DVD counterparts. People are generally smart enough to realize that the pricing model makes no sense and stopped buying.

I have no doubt that the PS3 is a positive for Blu-ray movie sales, but it's still an open question as far as the format's success. I can buy the entire X-Men Trilogy on DVD for $29.99... the same price as X-Men 3 on Blu-ray. That's crazy and will make it hard to justify for a lot of people.

2007 will be interesting to say the least.

Toshiba and Microsoft stand to make big bucks from patent royalties from discs, players, content creation software/hardware, etc. Since the discs themselves are far cheaper to produce and these two companies are making royalties from the patents they hold (paid by the studios), they are using it to subsidize the hardware.

But... using what exactly to subsidize the hardware? I'm still not understanding you. The royalty revenue, or...? I just don't see what the less expensive replication has to do with the hardware subsidization. Because neither MS nor Toshiba are in the replication biz.

Since when is Parsons viewed as anything but a bureaucrat? He's no visionary unless you count a blind visionary. He has managed to underwhelm the investment community for the past five years while the assets and stock of Time Warner languished. He couldn't lead a cow out of a barn and now you want to listen to this joker about the future of a new technology?

How about he try fixing AOL before commenting on anything technology related. Before that, he's just a talking head with zero credibility.

But... using what exactly to subsidize the hardware? I'm still not understanding you. The royalty revenue, or...? I just don't see what the less expensive replication has to do with the hardware subsidization. Because neither MS nor Toshiba are in the replication biz.

They are patent holders for the disc technology itself. If you wanted to start your own business tomorrow replicating HD DVD discs, you would need to pay for the equipment and associated software. Guess who gets a slice of those royalties? The patent holders.

If I want to release a HD DVD discs commercially, I have to purchase authoring software, a HD DVD burner, and blank HD media. While the people who produced those goods get the lion's share of the profits, guess who takes a slice. The patent holders.

For each HD DVD that's produced, there's likely a small royalty payment for each disc. Guess who collects the royalty payment? The patent holders.

In this case, who are the two major patent holders? Microsoft and Toshiba, who also happen to produce HD DVD playback hardware. The royalties are likely used to offset the cost of the hardware, making it more affordable for the consumer. With more players in people's homes, more movies are sold and more revenue travels upstream to the patent holders.

That's why this format war is so brutal... nobody wants to give up on the gold mine of royalty payments.

If Blu-ray were to win, Sony would see a small piece of every Blu-ray disc, player, burner, and writable disc that's sold. These small payments add up over time to BIG money *IF* you achieve substantial marketshare.


What's more likely? The scenario I just described... or that Microsoft and Toshiba are selling their HD DVD hardware as a suicidally slim margin?

It's basic economics at work.

Mike I have to say I *still* don't uunderstand your angle here... because your original premise was based on Toshiba subsidizing the cost of the hardware based on the margins allowed via a cheaper replication process. I simply pointed out that Toshiba is not a beneficiary of said replication process fees in terms of it's expense; they collect a per unit royalty fee and that is it. The cost of replication itself is material only to the studios and the authoring companies.

This was your position: This means that HD DVD discs are more profitable than Blu-ray. The HD DVD camp could do 3 things with these additional per-disc profit: 1) Pocket the difference, 2) Use part of the profits to subsidize the hardware, or 3) Reduce the price of the discs themselves.

It appears that they have opted for #2.

You can't treat HD-DVD as if it were a single company - Toshiba doesn't 'pocket' any of the profits from HD-DVD replication; ie replication is not an aspect of their business able to offset their losses elsewhere. Now again, they do get a royalty fee, but I do not believe by any stretch that these are able yet to cover the costs of the hardware subsidization. They are biting the bullet because it's what they might reap in the future that warrants the effort.

But again, the premise that HD-DVD discs are more profitable that Blu-ray... has nothing to do with either Microsoft or Toshiba, because they don't even operate in that space. And because it has nothing to do with them, the supposed margins of such also do not have any effect on their hardware strategy.

Anyway whatever the case, BD's are cheaper than HD-DVD's - it bares repeating.

The price difference between HD and BD is minimal at best. At retail, BD is equal. So, I'm not sure why you're pushing this "BD's are cheaper" angle.

Let me rephrase. If HD DVD's are cheaper to produce, it means that a studio can produce MORE discs at a lower price. It's up to the studios to set the retail price, though they COULD get away with lower pricing (than BD). My point is that Toshiba and MS collect royalties all over the place... the BD camp does, too. Since the hardware manufacturers benefit from the sale of each disc (more so than BD), they can subsidize the price of the hardware (to some degree). If the hardware is cheaper, more people buy the hardware and, in turn, buy more discs. It becomes a fire that feeds itself and drives prices downward.

The bottom line is that HD DVD is in a better position to reach mass market consumer pricing.

The Blu-ray camp does not have the luxury of low replication costs, thus they cannot pass royalties to hardware manufacturers in the manner the that HD DVD camp can.

The Blu-ray camp does not have the luxury of low replication costs, thus they cannot pass royalties to hardware manufacturers in the manner the that HD DVD camp can.

Again, what do replication costs have to do with 'passing on the royalties?'

If we look at Sony in the same light as we look at Toshiba here, we see that not only do they gain as much on the royalty front, but they also control both disc replication operations and diode manufacturing... so IMO if anyone has the ability to subsidize in this war, it's Sony. And it is my opinion that they are doing so by helping to offer studios lower replication costs than perhaps even the third party HD-DVD operations are presently offering, thus leading to the lower retail pricing. These HD-DVD replication facilities have no incentive to lower their costs in that manner, as they are not a part of a larger conglomerate with a vested interest in the format war.

ie They have to remain profitable; Sony DADC doesn't.

If you know PS3 owners that aren't interested in Blu-ray, well, then you know PS3 owners that are not interested in Blu-ray. But if a movie they love comes out on the format, don't be surprised if they end up purchasing it on BD.


Yes . My Buddy loves x-men. Did he buy x3 for bluray ? Nope he got it on dvd instead . Why ? because of the features and other things that came with the dvd that didn't come with the bluray disc .

So you might wnat to change that to "WAit till a movie comes out in Blu-ray that has all the features and exclusives of the dvd and then see what they purchase it on"

Of course its more waiting is it not ?


Hi. Hardcore gamer here. I bought my PS3 to play movies and games. There's nothing "hardcore" about launch titles for new consoles, and there never has been. Is there a title for the PS3 worth owning other than Resistance: Fall of Man?

Great for you. And for every one of you how many are there that aren't buying bluray movies ? I bought a 360 launch day and got 2 and a half games for it. Condemend , Call of duty 2 and geometry wars .

Many ps3 owners i know of bought the system for games coming out after the holiays (unless delayed again ) and are happy playing all the games on thier 360s and ps2s that they haven't been able to finish yet .

Everyone has a diffrent story and While I merely have said not everyone who buys a ps3 will use it for bluray movies even among the hardcore . You are trying to prove something else . Which i believe is that people are going to buy bluray movies cause as a game console the ps3 currently sucks .


That's not to say that there wasn't a fight between dueling formats before the DVD standards were adopted. Phillips and Sony were pushing ther MultiMedia Compact Disc (MMCD) storage satandard with Toshiba, Time-Warner, Matsushita Electric, Hitachi, Mitsubishi Electric, Pioneer, Thomson, and JVC backing Super Density disc (SD). It was IBM who brought the two camps together and avoided a format war between the two camps. Many were hoping the same thing would happen with HD DVD and BD, but the tables are turned. Sony got the content providers and hardware people on their side.

But this has nothing to do with the ps2 now does it ?

The ps2 came out 3 years + after all that crud and about 2 years after the divx fight with dvd . Dvd players were already at or under the 300$ mark

Ps3 is coming out months (what 7 months ? ) after bluray launched and bluray is still in a format war. The cheapest bluray player is the ps3 at 500$ and it scales all the way up to 1k for the player .

In those terms I see nothing similar to the ps3/bluray and the ps2/ dvd .


UMD has not failed, and anyone who says so is a fool. It has been a failure for selling movies, but it continues to sell quite well for game content. Furthermore, it is the movie studios who set the pricing for their UMD movies, not Sony. Charging $19 for a movie on UMD when you can buy the DVD for the same or less and then convert the content to Mpeg 4 and play it from a memory card was assinine, but blaming that idiocy on Sony is misplacing the blame.

Even as a game format is it failing as psp software sales are low .

Not only that but umd is forced upon and dev as the delievery means .

As for the idocy who should we blame ? Sony is the company that gave that funcionality to us . Perhaps if they had a brain they would have said hmm what is stopping someone from ripping dvds to mp4 and using memory cards for movies thus destroying any chance umd had ?

They should have also asked the same about memory cards and games .

I'm not waiting. I'm buying BD's and enjoying them on my PS3. They look great, and my biggest complaint right now is lack of a real remote that I can use in my theater. I'm waiting for some real blockbuster content (Hello Disney/Pixar, WB, and Sony!), but there's enough out there to keep my happy and more coming. The temptation to buy a HD DVD player is still there, but it's decreasing. well see i have a bluray player and the temptation to buy any media is simply not there . (well its my sisters but she is down the hall from me and its hooked up to the 60 inch tv ) I get the content i want on hd-dvd at cheaper prices and in some cases better audio .

Even on DVDWars, the average price of BD films is below that of HD-DVD films. So, if pricing is your argument, how is HD-DVD better positioned on the software front? You seem pretty passionate about it.

they are the hybrids that are bumping up the average price of hd-dvd . Take out the hybrids and you will see it go back into hd-dvds favor.

Meanwhile, it is Toshiba that is taking the hit to subsidize the manufacture of both the standalone players and the HD-DVD add-ons. They aren't making any bucks off the replication process. So why do they do it? Because overall they stand to make a ton off of the royalties if their format succeeds. is there any proof of this ? I have onlyh heard one report that states toshiba took a loss on the original stand alones. But aren't you one of the big haters of analysts and those other groups like isupply ?

Not only that but isn't toshiba simply doing what sony is doing with the ps3 ? though perhaps to a much lesser degree ?

I have no doubt that the PS3 is a positive for Blu-ray movie sales, but it's still an open question as far as the format's success. I can buy the entire X-Men Trilogy on DVD for $29.99... the same price as X-Men 3 on Blu-ray. That's crazy and will make it hard to justify for a lot of people.

I used to think the same thing. The HD DVD stuff looked nice at the store, but I didn't feel the need to buy it and didn't think the quality justified the price. Then I put up the projector and screen and plugged in the PS3 to watch a BD movie, and it all changed.

Watch X-Men III on BD and then watch X-Men I or II on DVD and you can see the difference, even on an upscaling player. My wife thought I was full of it when I explained it to her, but when I actually showed it to her she agreed.

2007 will be interesting to say the least.

Indeed. Here hoping we, as enthusiasts and consumers, make out. :)

I count any media/format a failure if there was a goal set that it did not come remotely close to accomplishing. UMD was meant for more than just game playback. It is succeeding in neither. Movie playback is nonexistant and gamesales are no where near that of it's closest competition. The PSP itself, is no where near it's closest competition.

That is like saying that the memory stick is a hit because Sony procucts use it, but none of the hardware is popular itself...some has even been discontinued. Who buys Sony mp3 players, PDAs (discontinued), Cyber Shots...all of which took the memory stick. But according to your logic, I can claim that the memory stick is a success, because those products use it.

Along those lines, if BD does not become the defacto format for HD, I would not call it a success. That sounds like something a mother would say to a son that sucks at baseball..."You might not have gotten a hit all season honey, but you look awfully good in your uniform...mommy loves you!" Although BD will be used to provide software for the PS3, it's true function was to provide BD HD contedt to the masses.

Nothing against Sony. I own many Sony products, but you're stretching it a bit.

DPowers I think the point he's making ultimately is this: Does it generate profit? If yes, then it was worth the effort.

On the side, MemoryStick is actually a little more widespread than you give it credit also. CyberShot's sell well, SonyEricsson phones use them, and for whatever PSP's support for UMD, it has had a very positive effect on MemoryStick sales.

DPowers I think the point he's making ultimately is this: Does it generate profit? If yes, then it was worth the effort.

On the side, MemoryStick is actually a little more widespread than you give it credit also. CyberShot's sell well, SonyEricsson phones use them, and for whatever PSP's support for UMD, it has had a very positive effect on MemoryStick sales.

I see the flip side. I see Cannon cameras as a success, not the cybershot. I see Motorola as a success not SonyEricson. You know how I view the PSP. I see te SD card a success, not the memory stick. I guess we all measure success differently. It wouldn't suprise me if we read news about any of these products being discontinued. It certainly wasn't a surprise when the Clie' (sp?) was discontinued. None are hot items or well reviewed.

A quick check on bestbuy's camera media. BB sells 21 MemoryStick and 21 SD+MMC. PSP and the sony cameras, hdv+avchd camcorders help to push the format somewhat, but the PSP is what helped this format gain some mkt share.

So about equal. Noone seems to be bothered about the flash memory format war. ;)

Noone is writing petitions about MS vs SD the way people get involved here. Sometimes I wonder how many do it because they have some religious conviction, and how many are just acting passionate because our lives are just not that exciting these days.

A quick check on bestbuy's camera media. BB sells 21 MemoryStick and 21 SD+MMC. PSP and the sony cameras, hdv+avchd camcorders help to push the format somewhat, but the PSP is what helped this format gain some mkt share.

So about equal. Noone seems to be bothered about the flash memory format war. ;)

Noone is writing petitions about MS vs SD the way people get involved here. Sometimes I wonder how many do it because they have some religious conviction, and how many are just acting passionate because our lives are just not that exciting these days.

People tend to be passionate about it because its a lot of money to invest in something that may potentially be gone down the line. If people were investing thousands of dollars in their camera's memory, then I'm sure they'd be a little more vocal about the format and its longevity.

Pretty much just bored at work;). And your quick, Best Buy comparison is accurate how? I used this comparison because my wife worked for Lexar until last year. They rebrand both types of memory (from Scan Disk) and as it happens, SD sells quite a bit more than MS. That is fact.

Anyway it was supposed to show how UMD can't be considered a triumph, just has, if BD fails to take hold as the winner of HD, it will be considered a failure.

Like I said, I have nothing against Sony. I am not going to list off all of my Sony items. A format is used to support certain hardware is not successful if it was intended for so much more. I will say I do own at least two items that use MS...which I got for free from my wife.:)

I think people expect more from games machines than just games and I think adding blu ray and HD DVD to consoles will drive the acceptance of HD. I'm a gamer, I have a 360 and use my 360 to watch HD DVD's and more.

My biggest problem is the fact that I have to buy to 2 formats to enjoy HD quality material, its just not right.

This is how I see it:

If Sony can hold on to the studios & BD can keep crunching titles out, then it's done.
At this point, Sony can only fup big time.

1)
Two main driving forces: # titles in the market, # of players in the market. (3rd factor is HD TVs)
# title for BD is in increasing rate.
With PS3, at $499 it's been tested by independent parties that it's a good BD player.
Those of you who will say now --> $499 is a stiff price for general public!!

Yeah, I remember my first DVD Player, I paid arm & leg, but as soon as guys like APEX came in, it literally changed the market driving down the cost of DVD Players.
And belive me, guys like APEX, OPPO, Haier... want in.

2) Sony, Toshiba, Time Warner, MS... are not 501 org.
They are in for profit. They want you & me to PAY.
PAY PAY PAY PAY!
Each with its own agenda, sometimes uniting for sterategic reasons.

Toshiba has been collecting good fat check from everyone over DVD format.
MS is MS, hello Folks! It's the evill MS empire..$#??? (Note: personally I like MS),
it's the same evil, monopolistic empire you hate...suddendly, you are in love....

The fact that more electronic manufactures & studios teamed up means that Sony BD format provides more potential revenue model for them (not us). REVENUE, PROFIT!
Sony sold them into BD. Toshiba couldn't do as much.

3) Yes, I want all the movies ever made in film like format on ON-DEMAND so I can just access right away. Screw DVD, BR, HD DVD...

If you are thinking this, wake up & smell the coffee...It's a possibility, but not anytime soon. MS would love this, wouldn't they...

Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Thoshiba, Pioneer, B&O, Dolby, DTS, McIntire, Denon, Yamaha....are not going to fold overnight.

Do you really think Dolby True HD, DTS HD, HDMI1.3, 1080P is the end...

They haven't even begun. They will always will try to sell HiFi to folks like you & me, who ALWAYS want faster, better, more. On-demand & downloads will become more & more popular, however, they (AV world) will sell us on Quality...otherwise, why are you on this AVS forum?
Are you content with 100Kmile/bumper to bumper Hyundai?
Or you LIVE for that Porche after you pay $3000 for fixing a few light bulbs.

It's obvious HD-DVD is the better format and will be cheaper for everyone in the long run. People need to stop having a hard-on about 20 extra gigs of storage.

Who's going to come on top of format war has little to do with PQ at this point.

Neither of the company exec. and company are PURE AV Enthuasiast, hoping for world peace, achieving to come up with best format for the people & for the good of humanity!!! They have MONEY at stake! To me, PS3 $499 at good quality is good enough benefit that came out of format war. I would personally like this format war to drag out to the point where HW is somewhat affordable. PS3's $499 sounds about, right.

the ps3 will not have that big of an impact on the hd scene as some here would believe. the people i know that bought a ps3 (not to sell it) really doesnt care about blu-ray. the same way that the majority of people that bought the 360 dont care about hd-dvd. of the 3 people i know with a ps3, theyre planning on using it as a gaming machine. the average person bought these consoles for games. of course theres a niche market for hd formats and gamers, but its not the average gamer.


1) If PS3 has below average BD playback capability, this would be true.
However, if I'm a consumer who went to CC or BB or abt to buy HDTV and saw that the 1080P Plasma/LCDs were the latest, best things to get, and thinking "do you see that Sony XBR2 with BD playing...that is incredible". If I'm buying this LCD, I want to be able to maximize it. Hmm, BD Player, OK, Now which one should I get....??? How about something good & cheap?? PS3 at $499 or Samsung Standalone at $699 ($999 suggested)???


2)
Why do so many people have HTPC?
Why did folks jump to Xbox360 from PS2?
The days of playing PONG on TV are way over...the GRAPHICS, resolutions do matter. It's not just about the SW Content. The PQ now MATTERS. Since 1080P is the latest, you WANT to play at 1080P. To display 1080P requires what? 1080P TV? And if I have 1080P TV & 1080P BD Player, why should I NOT use it? Just because a gamer likes to spend playing than watching does not mean he can't tell the difference.

The 3 folks who's planning to use probably does not have high interest in HiFi Video/HomeTheater/HD Broadcasting to begin with. And you misunderstood what they said, they mean they will be spending majority of time gaming rather than BD/DVD playing. You ask those 3 people 3month from now, how many BD movies you own or have watched? I bet it will be more than that 1 BD came with PS3. Did these 3 help drive BD market? Well, you be the judge.

... if I'm a consumer who went to CC or BB or abt to buy HDTV and saw that the 1080P Plasma/LCDs were the latest, best things to get, and thinking "do you see that Sony XBR2 with BD playing...that is incredible". If I'm buying this LCD, I want to be able to maximize it. Hmm, BD Player, OK, Now which one should I get....??? How about something good & cheap?? PS3 at $499 or Samsung Standalone at $699 ($999 suggested)???

How about an HD-DVD Toshiba stand-alone deck for less than $400? ;)

How about an HD-DVD Toshiba stand-alone deck for less than $400? ;)
hmm, or PS3 for only $499? :-)

hmm, or PS3 for only $499? :-)

+ 24.95 for the remote ;)

How about an HD-DVD Toshiba stand-alone deck for less than $400? ;)

You thought the $500 Toshiba was a clunky piece of trash, wait until you see the $400 one. ;)

Someone tell my why anyone should listen to Time Warners CEO...

It is true to some effect...PS3 is helping with selling movie titles...but it won't be enough. In my entire family...cousins, brothers etc...there are 7 PS3's...I am the only one that actually purchases BD. I know this is only my family...but I beleive it's more wide spread. :)

It is true to some effect...PS3 is helping with selling movie titles...but it won't be enough. In my entire family...cousins, brothers etc...there are 7 PS3's...I am the only one that actually purchases BD. I know this is only my family...but I beleive it's more wide spread. :)

7 PS3s... lucky S.O.B.

How about an HD-DVD Toshiba stand-alone deck for less than $400? ;)

True. But as you know, Sony insists the retailers to play BD with their XBR series, and those demo BD & XBR2 are eye popping! It really convinces the average user to open their wallet! More importantly, it really helps convincing your wives & girlfriends!

Yes, when it comes to PQ, HD DVD transfers & title make it look stunning, however, the strategic marketing is where BD seems to shine now...

Again, you never know; David vs. Golaiah, Persian vs. Greek,
# & $ don't guarantee victory.

7 PS3s... lucky S.O.B.We have some hard core gamers in our family...they also own the Xbox360 systems...me I don't a a gamer. :D

Heres a question, whos got more money. Toshiba or Sony? (this is an honest question)

i would assume sony

I looked all over for the PS3 remote and finally found one at CC.

Everyone else including several gaming stores had sold all of there remotes already.
I believe Warner could not be more wrong about the PS3....and its obvious impact on BD movie sales.

People are not buying the remote to play games ;)

I have yet to purchase a game for my PS3 but I have bought six Blu-ray movies.

Heres a question, whos got more money. Toshiba or Sony? (this is an honest question)

Did a quick search and found their finance reports. The only ones I could find from the same period were from 2003 so they are a little old. Sony group's revenue is about 50% bigger than Toshiba group. Note that while a significant part of Sony's business is coming from their movie subsidiary, still the majority of their income comes from electronics. Toshiba, on the other hand, has almost no business outside of electronics/electrical components, but they have a lot more products than just consumer electonics -- about 2/3 of their revenue comes outside of this area (I'm talking about things like washing machines, refrigerators, power plants, etc.). You can furnish a house with Toshiba products for all the electrical components, but with Sony you can only build a home theater (although it comes with movies :p). The size of electronics business is about 3:1 in favor of Sony.

(Note these reports are in Japanese)
Sony's finance report (http://japan.cnet.com/news/biz/story/0,2000056020,20064005,00.htm)
Toshiba's finance report (http://japan.cnet.com/news/biz/story/0,2000056020,20064034,00.htm)

gandalf :o

It is true to some effect...PS3 is helping with selling movie titles...but it won't be enough. In my entire family...cousins, brothers etc...there are 7 PS3's...I am the only one that actually purchases BD. I know this is only my family...but I beleive it's more wide spread. :)
really... so when they rent new movie, they will still rent it in DVD instead of getting BD for the same price? Thats pretty silly.

You thought the $1000 Samsung was a clunky piece of trash, wait until you see the $500 one. ;)

Fixed.

Well, UMD was supposed to be "Universal", which would entail the possibility of use with music, burnable discs, etc.

As far as Hollywood is concerned, UMD is a failure. Most studios have stopped producing UMD movies.

The only company using it is Sony. Game publishers HAVE to use is because they don't have a choice. It's like saying "Nintendo's proprietary GameBoy cartridges are a success." Game publishers have two choices: Make GameBoy games using Nintendo proprietary cartridge, or don't make GameBoy games.

Sony's licensing fees for discs and UMD tools are so out of whack that studios had to charge $15-30 for UMD discs if they wanted to make a profit. If the movies were $8-15 each from the get go, I think more people would have bought the movies.

Sony did the same thing with Memory Stick... and nobody uses memory stick except Sony and occasionally Samsung.

If BD players and movies remain this high a year from now, Blu-ray will go nowhere. The average consumer will NOT pay $30-35 for Fox movies on Blu-ray. Period. HD DVD is in a far better position to achieve mass market pricing on both the hardware and software fronts.
you are pretty wrong. Memory Stick, UMD and BD are ways for Sony not to pay royalties for billions of different discs they sell or use in their systems.

Other than BD, I doubt Sony ever intended for either UMD or Memory Stick to become an open standard. Thats why BD coalition has so many vendors behind it. Why would biggest electronic maker in the world pay royalties to other companies? Sony has enough sales in different electronics areas for UMD and Memory Sticks to be profitable for them...

In the case of UMD, there is nothing else like it on the market at all. Who else could use UMD movies? UMD movies will be failures forever because nobody wants to purchase and play movies on tiny screen. Thats why anylists now call Ipod Video an failure as well - there is simply no market there. And thats also why you can now stream video from PS3 to PSP...

Sony's licensing fees for discs and UMD tools are so out of whack that studios had to charge $15-30 for UMD discs if they wanted to make a profit

Actually from what I'm told UMD was quite affordable, at least on the authoring house side. Most places could pay off the dev kit with 3-4 discs

Those at Sony are not idiots. The PS3 is working to sell itself two ways. Gamers who bought the PS3 for gaming are going to buy and or rent BD. Those that bought the PS3 strictly for BD are trying our gaming, BD gaming that is.

And I agree about this being spin. This guy is worse than us here at AVS with being biased, because we pay for this crap and he gets paid.