Hi,

AFAIK only 2 CDPs/stacks can do that i.e. EMM-LABS and DCS. I want to know what this upconversion is and what is the sonic advantage of doing it on Redbook playback? Are there any players I have missed capable of doing it?

Thanks,
-dollarman

DSD uses delta-sigma modulation. Delta-sigma modulation is not uncommon in DACs (so called 1-bit DACs).

According to wikipedia, there have been some papers presented by AES members touting both PCM and delta-sigma modulation as superior to each other.

Also according to wikipedia:

Due to the way 1-bit Sigma-Delta converters work, DSD encoded audio for lower frequencies has better resolution than standard CDs, while for higher frequencies the resolution, and therefore the fidelity, drops down below that of standard CDs.

I think we can safely say there are tradeoffs to either method.

I suspect both can perform very well when used in properly designed equipment.

I'm not at all clear why one would want to do this. Generally conversion between DSD and PCM is a bad idea. Every conversion is going to cost you more noise and clarity.

Maybe if someone reckons they can do a much better job of DSD->Analogue conversion than they can of PCM->Analogue conversion, it might make sense to convert PCM->DSD for the DSD DAC. But then the question is, how good are they at converting PCM to DSD? Presumably this would be a digital signal processing task.

Hmm, I suppose it could be a cost saving too. If you're a dedicated Super Audio CD player, then doing a digital PCM->DSD conversion saves you having to have PCM DACs for the CD layer as well as DSD DACs for the HD layer.

'
This is a great article on the topic of 1-bit D-S modulation. Even if you don't agree with it, it lays out the background of the discussion clearly.

http://sjeng.org/ftp/SACD.pdf

IIRC, the new Esoteric DV-60 (maybe SA-60, or both...) will upsample/convert to DSD, too. The bottom line is if you like how it sounds, doesn't matter which is converted what. :)

larry

IIRC, the new Esoteric DV-60 (maybe SA-60, or both...) will upsample/convert to DSD, too. The bottom line is if you like how it sounds, doesn't matter which is converted what. :)

larry

I agree. Too many generalizations lots of times. There are good and bad implementations and designs with the same technology and one instance does not govern how another instance will sound. If you like the sound, enjoy it.

Thanks guys. Just heard a DCS stack the other day and it was quiet impressive. I asked this question as I wasn't sure whether there was something inherently superior about this technology or it was just the implementation which was good.

IIRC, the new Esoteric DV-60 (maybe SA-60, or both...) will upsample/convert to DSD, too. The bottom line is if you like how it sounds, doesn't matter which is converted what. :)

larryLarry, I see that you own the DV-50. Why did you opt for this player and what other players did you demo before opting for the Esoteric? I am thinking of picking up the SA-60.

Larry, I see that you own the DV-50. Why did you opt for this player and what other players did you demo before opting for the Esoteric? I am thinking of picking up the SA-60.I wanted a player that played all 3 disc types. It was/is consistently highly regarded on Agon and Audio Asylum forums and reviews. I got mine used on Agon (for a tad less than 3K) so I couldn't really audition it. I still have a Benchmark DAC that sits unused now. If the Ayre C-5xe had been out at the time I would have audtioned it, but it was slow getting out.

larry

6moons.com has a review lined up for a Philips player that does DSD upconversion. I don't know whether this is destine for the US or not, but I have seen it in British hi-fi mags for about US$600.00.

I wanted a player that played all 3 disc types. It was/is consistently highly regarded on Agon and Audio Asylum forums and reviews. I got mine used on Agon (for a tad less than 3K) so I couldn't really audition it. I still have a Benchmark DAC that sits unused now. If the Ayre C-5xe had been out at the time I would have audtioned it, but it was slow getting out.

larryI have ordered the SA-60 new for a fabulous price-point. I have no need for the video end of the DV-50 or 60, at all. This will complete (for now) the digital audio end of my system. The user selectable upconversion of regular cd's to dsd is a bonus. And, I have an Eastern Electric Minimax tube phono preamp to finish the upgrade of my analog end. It will be a busy end of the year for me rearranging the audio rack.

Cool. A SA-60 went for a ridiculous price on Agon recently. It was so cheap I would have bought it just to see what it sounded like and have no worries about selling it or my DV-50 for the same price. :) The SA-60 looks nice. It has 2 of the 3 filters the DV-50 has (even though everybody just uses the RDOT+FIR which is still available on the SA-60) and PCM->DSD. It will be interesting to see if the PCM->DSD makes that much of a difference, good or bad.

larry

Yes, I bid on that ridiculously low priced SA-60, but I was way too late, like 2 hours into the listing. But it helped to point me in the direction where I lucked into my own new Esoteric purchase. It will be available tomorrow for my listening pleasure.

Can't wait to give it a listen.

I'm glad you saw it too. It was gone when I went back to look and I started wondering if I had mixed something up. :)

larry

I picked up the Esoteric SA-60 today. Double boxed. And a beauty to behold out of the packaging. Without doubt, the most solid and impressive looking and feeling cdp that I have had the opportunity to place into my system. And I thought that the Cary CD303/300 was hefty. Even the Esoteric remote is a heavy well milled piece.

How does it sound? I suspect that this one is a real keeper. The burn in process is in place. I am advised that I should give it at least 100 hours. I will report back on my thoughts on the user selectable pcm to dsd upconversion and other features in a few days.

Hello, I have the new Esoteric player the X-01 D2 arriving next week and I am looking forward to hearing this new and dynamic new edition to the Esoteric range. I have had the ux-1 dvd/sacd for the last two years and found it an excellent machine,but I thought seperating audio from video would give an even better music performance.As for the video side I have ordered the denon 3930,I think that with this combination,that I should have the best of both worlds.
Incidentaly I will be using the denon 3930 with the pioneer plasma 1920x1080p any one used this combination?

I agree. Too many generalizations lots of times. There are good and bad implementations and designs with the same technology and one instance does not govern how another instance will sound. If you like the sound, enjoy it.


It's garbage in garbage out. If the oroginal signal is PCM converting it to DSD makes no sense, nor would have any benefit. Same goes for the reverse except sometimes it's necesarry for using bass mamangment and time alligment features.

Hello, I have the new Esoteric player the X-01 D2 arriving next week and I am looking forward to hearing this new and dynamic new edition to the Esoteric range. I have had the ux-1 dvd/sacd for the last two years and found it an excellent machine,but I thought seperating audio from video would give an even better music performance.As for the video side I have ordered the denon 3930,I think that with this combination,that I should have the best of both worlds.
Incidentaly I will be using the denon 3930 with the pioneer plasma 1920x1080p any one used this combination?What's the "D2"? A European version of the Limited or something new? Also, the 3930 should work just fine with the Pio plasma.

larry

It's garbage in garbage out. If the oroginal signal is PCM converting it to DSD makes no sense, nor would have any benefit. Same goes for the reverse except sometimes it's necesarry for using bass mamangment and time alligment features.While my overall preference is to listen to 2 channel redbook with the RDOT +FIR filter, the DSD filter conversion on the Esoteric SA-60 is extremely listenable and is certainly not "garbage".