Saw this thing at the mall of all places yesterday. Panasonic was putting on a plasma demo, with all of their current models on display. 37,42, 50, 58, 65 and 103. All of the 1080s are awesome (largest 4 all are) But that 103 is truly a knockout. One of the few things that may be worth the price. Of course this is all relative. 7X the price of the 65 but actually that visually striking. My wife who is never impressed with any of the 250k+ worth of equipment at home was almost transfixed. I think I could easily give up the extra 20" of diagonal picture of our projection system for the visual impact of that monstrosity. Too bad I told the little woman how much it lists for! Really though it is totally striking. If you get to within 3 feet or so you'll see a little screen door and the blacks could be slightly blacker. But other than that it is totally impressive, color, contrast all fabulous. No front PJ can compare. Especially since we were watching in a brightly lit mall. Maybe when the price drops, I can sneak one in. After all it's cheaper than the Wilsons!

In total lust!

I have the 65" 1080p TH-65PF9UK. If the price on the 103" drops below $50K, I'm definitely getting one. Finally, no need to look to projectors for a large veiewing experience.

Edward

how much and in what mall was it on display

IIRC, the price is around 70K. It's 475 lbs and uses 1500 watts. Rich Harkness wrote a nice piece in the plasma forum about his experience seeing the 103" in action in Toronto.

larry

I'm wonderin how much heat gets out of this beast.

Hi

I am that close to pull the trigger on the Pioneer Elite PRO FHD-1.. AN incredible display if you ask me... Now it seems the Panasonic 103" is the real deal too and the size is compelling but the price, the price and the way Plasma (displays in general) prices are falling... NOT yet...

It will dissipates about the same heat as a small electric iron but that is a real large screen one can watch in broad daylight...

They had it at CES in Jan 2006. LG had one on display as well. I'm sure they will be there again in Jan...

I'm wonderin how much heat gets out of this beast.

A lot of heat. I'd wager a guess that [at least] 50% of the power it takes in is released in the form of heat. If it really uses 1500 Watts of power, you will have probably 750 Watts of heat. But, the heat is spread over a wide area, so you probably aren't going to see more than 0.17 Watts per sq. in.

(Calculation based on 103" taken as hypotenuse, 16x as bottom, 9x as side, overall dimensions coming to 89.77"x50.49")

Hi

I am that close to pull the trigger on the Pioneer Elite PRO FHD-1.. AN incredible display if you ask me... Now it seems the Panasonic 103" is the real deal too and the size is compelling but the price, the price and the way Plasma (displays in general) prices are falling... NOT yet...

It will dissipates about the same heat as a small electric iron but that is a real large screen one can watch in broad daylight...

aside from the glare. What was it like in the mall twothbeave?

I see the thread below, but this is a somewhat different question:

Where do you even BUY one? Directly from Panasonic the only option?

there is no point of even buying one.

i believe optoma has some 90 inch in-wall DLP's that have extraordinary image quality for $25000 vs 70k

are you seriously considering to buy one?

we're talking about 70K here.

I just don't see the value in this display. You can get one hell of a projector for under 20k and if you have lighting issues, check out the screen innovations visage screen, its very impressive.

Hi

I have come to see plasma in a new light. Last year during the Soccer World cup a few of my friends came to watch the games on the Ruby/103" inch screen in the HT and it was weird in a darkened room... a Plasma or any display able to be seen under any lightning condition is an excellent solution. Plasma do have some advantages...

The 70K is an obstacle though... I have not seen the Screen Innovations screen but I have a hard time thinking they can match the sheer brightness of a plasma screen. They routinely put out even when ISF calibrated over 55 fL at the screen.... I have not seen it yet but I am keeping as a reference what I have seen the soon-to-be-acquired Elite PRO-FHD1 although upon the advices of CINERAMAX, I will try to see the Fujitsu AVIAMO 50" before pulling the trigger, but I am really itching. If the Panasonic is anywhere close it could be the ticket for a truly universal HT/Home Entertainment display for some people, I will not go that route though...

threads merged

after receiving a new Fujitsu 63" plasma with the plasma glass shattered, and being stuck with a $1500.00 bill for the insurance deductible, I have to wonder if a 103" plasma is a good investment

This beast requires riggers to install it: it is made up of a 103" sealed plasma glass: glass breaks: stuff happens

and what about service if it needs to go to the shop?

Now it sems that Panasonic is claiming to have sold all 5000 of these beasts allotted to the US with more available in March. I doubt that they have produced 500 of these let alone 5000and who is buying them. Has anyone ever seen one of these huge plasmas anywhere other than a manufacturers demo?

Does anyone know how the Panasonic compares to the Optoma HDBV3100 100" Plasma?

http://www.optomausa.com/product_detail.asp?product_id=216

It doesn't have rainbows. ;)

i do not doubt for a moment that they have sold all 5000. COmmercial installs will take them quite easily.

And some of the very rich (you know the type... they have a guy who types for them) They will snap them up for their thrid and fourth homes.

"If the price on the 103" drops below $50K, I'm definitely getting one."

On the Web the price is already that low.

IB

I would seriously wait for the Fujitsu version.

I would seriously wait....and wait....and wait
:)

Hi OB,

It was at the SF Center under the dome. This was a 2 day travelling roadshow. Coolest electronics demo as I've seen outside of a tradeshow. As said above 73k is list. I can see them how they can be selling everyone of them, everyone of them they can produce. It is truly that good. You can't, and I absolutely repeat you cannot get a picture better than this at any price. Not even the 300k Runco could do what this baby does. I saw the LG last year and the preproduction version of this thing prior and it looks a lot better now. The LG is a joke if you could even find one to buy. The blacks sucked, weak CR and had no where near the vibrancy of colors. It's also 1" less in diagonal (wow yippy!!) but the real problem is that their list is an additional 30k. No contest game, set and match to the Japanese on this one. A rare occasion that the Japanese undercut the Koreans, with a huge performance advantage to boot.

All you who are suggesting, that front/rear pj, could ever challenge the plasma for supremacy have a total failure to grasp reality. Direct view completely and totally blows away projection in every possible category, other than the glare. At 103" there's a lot of surface to glare off of, but really does not offset all the pros of the direct view. You can have this monstor in any light possible and you are talking about the same brilliance. Rear projection has all the regular issues, off axis viewing, much dimmer picture, optical distortion, and the list goes on. Believe me when you see this in person, you cannot help but be spellbound. I have the new 65, it's fab and it sits next to my front pj system. I often run them side by side. The pj is sad one, a ScreenPlay 7205 (temporary solution, that I got while the 1080 situation resolved) which is a light canon. However, when the plasma is on I have a hard time looking at the pj image even though it's almost 4x the size at 123". You just can't compare a projected image. There's so much more visual impact, I don't care what the specs are on the projector. It's in the physics, unless you are looking directly into a mirror, your image will never be as bright or as sharp as the original light source. A white or even worse grey piece of cloth does not qualify and while the rear pj is reflected off the mirror, it's image is distorted by the optics and dulled by effects of refraction or the glass it's projected onto. I've even seen a fabulous custom Stewart/Runco rear PJ system that was very good, but still I wouldn't want to watch it in a brightly lit room off axis. Where as I could see the incredible picture of this Panny 90 feet away from the side. It just totally blows the current picture paradigms away. It's soooo good.

If Ciner is right (which I'm sure he probably is), I can't imagine how good this thing will be when Fujitsu gets their hands on it. I have a 6 year old 50"Fujitsu that still amazingly good because F was so far ahead of the game. It's amazing how they have been able to improve on the glass with their electronics. The latest crop of 1080p Panasonics are going to hard to improve upon though. The scaler now are totally top notch. I actually prefer the pic of the 65" Panny over the 50" Elite, especially with SD sources, as I really think it does a better job with the upconversion. Man the Panny BRD upconverts SD-DVD unbelieveably well. And the BR is just indescribeably awesome. Truly you must see to believe.

Regards,

Edward

103" of Panny's "JUST" mode? Meh. ;) Seriously, it's a jaw-dropping panel but it isn't about to jeopardize projector sales, especially when you can exceed the image quality for far less than $50k (except perhaps for brightness). Direct view isn't the end-all, be-all. EVERY technology has it's faults and plasma DEFINITELY isn't perfect.

First of all, with 2:35 material you're going to get letterboxing. No thanks. I can deal with it on the 50" 9UK in the bedroom. I DO NOT want it in a dedicated theater and I think masking the thing with curtains would be just a weeee bit silly.

Secondly, SDE is an issue. Not sure from farther away, I saw the thing at CES and at 8' (closer than you'd ever sit in a proper environment) the SDE was noticable.

Third is the reflectiveness. Even in a dim room you're going to see reflections from various lighting sources.

Finally (but not least important), plasma simply can't equal the color detail and shading available from a projector/lens/screen combo at the $50k level. Even on my 50" Panny I see false contouring and color issues. They're not major and IMO the panel is gorgeous but for $50k? I damn well expect a LOT better. Also, what looks minor on a 50-65" panel is going to be magnified to a great degree on a 103" panel. Fujitsu? They'll turn this into a $125k panel... and it'll STILL have plasma issues. They can do what they want, it's always going to be a plasma and always going to have some issues.

This isn't a screen replacement by a longshot. A screen/projector combo has SO much more flexibility and will display more resolution with more accuracy and far fewer compromises. If it ain't 16x9, you're going to have letterboxing. A CIH setup will make full use of every bit of resolution available. This can't. Now, the ultimate HT? One of these for daytime use and a drop-down screen for controlled environment viewing. :D

It's 475 lbs and uses 1500 watts.I'm wonderin how much heat gets out of this beast.1500 watts.


I'd wager a guess that 50% of the power it takes in is released in the form of heat. If it really uses 1500 Watts of power, you will have probably 750 Watts of heat.Where would the other 750 watts go?

1500 watts.

Where would the other 750 watts go?

Hi

I do not know the efficiency of this plasma unit but some of the electricity will be converted in light the rest in heat.... assuming 50% efficiency...

Assuming 50% efficiency would be FANTASTIC!

Assuming 50% efficiency would be FANTASTIC!I would think so.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy#Lighting_efficiency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy#Lighting_efficiency)

=-=
it is common to express the luminous efficiency in units where the maximum possible efficacy, 683 lm/W, corresponds to an efficiency of 100%."
=-=


The most-efficient electric light-source in the world, the low-pressure sodium lamp, can be seen in the table at the above link to be only 27% efficient. The best linear-fluorescent tubes are only about 15% efficient. The best commercially-produced LED's are only about 10% efficient. Plasma displays are probably less than 1% efficient.

Since any light produced by a display of any efficiency will be absorbed-by, and heat, any surface it strikes and does not bounce off-of or propagate through, a 1500-watt plasma display will heat a home-theater at exactly the rate of 1500 watts. If the display were faced-toward and up-against an open window, it would heat a room at a rate of almost 1500 watts.


http://topics.energycentral.com/centers/gentech/view/detail.cfm?aid=1163

=-=
Someone once said that 'Anything is possible if you don’t know what you are talking about'.
=-=

I hope you guys understand that i pulled that number outta the air. Mainly to show that even though the possibility of a great amount of heat to be released, the screen wouldnt melt by the heat :D

Everything in my post was a very very rough guess. The effective heat convecting/radiating area would most likely be less than the area of the screen.

I have no doubt they sold all 5000. I imagine many of these will be in the lobbies and boardrooms of many corporations.

I was just in Palm Springs and I don't doubt a few of these will be in homes out there-many of which are used for just a few weeks a year...

All you who are suggesting, that front/rear pj, could ever challenge the plasma for supremacy have a total failure to grasp reality. Direct view completely and totally blows away projection in every possible category, other than the glare.
Not everybody is a brightness freak. Give me this with SED technology and I'm all eyes, but plasma with mediocre contrast and huge power bills? No thanks. I want real blacks and 12ftl are more than enough for daylight scenes in my black cave. No need to shove every compression issue, bit of noise and banding down my throat with superbright images and at the same time suffer milky dark scenes.

If you have $50K to spend on a tv, you'd likely have the means to acquire a commercial 2K PJ with gobs of brightness to negate any ambient room light.

I'll take one! :D

I've actually been able to spend quite a bit of time with the giant Panasonic 103" plasma, as my local AV high-end store has been displaying it in a dedicated room (which until recently housed the projectors they sold) for several weeks. Both the Panasonic and the store salesmen have been great about letting me have a go at the display, putting it through paces with various material. I've watched some Blue Ray (Kingdom Of Heaven, Ice Age 2, Superman Returns, Fantastic Four), some SD DVDs, a variety of broadcast HD etc over a couple weeks. (Man it's indulgent, the thing is set up in it's own room, nice and light controlled, and often I've been able to be just alone, sitting there, drinking it in).

It is truly an awesome display! People are usually just shocked when they walk into the room and see this thing playing - even before they know what they are looking at. (Most people don't know what it is, because it's in a fairly dark room, so they first say something like "Oh My God, that looks amazing! What is it?")

And I can also see why people who are really into front projection would still prefer a projector. That is, especially if you are really into trying to re-create the projected film look, you just aren't going to do that more accurately than using essentially the same approach as projected film. So nothing feels more like "being at the theater" than a front projected image (in a big enough size).

Further, the best front projectors in really light controlled rooms will give you even deeper blacks than this plasma. Because I'm deciding between the new Panasonic 65" 1080p plasma and a front projector, my projector demoing has ratcheted up in earnest (an ongoing interest over the years, as front projection and plasma are my two favorite display technologies). I just viewed the new Sharp projector (that Greg Rogers raved about has having the highest simultaneous contrast he'd ever experienced) and it was incredible. It also had deeper black levels - evident more in "torture test" lower contrast scenes especially - than this giant Panasonic. As well, the Sharp may have been even as sharp (or sharper!) than the Panasonic in some scenes.

All that said, a plasma this size just provides a different experience. It does, effortlessly, what excite many people about upgrades on their projectors - that is provide that extra dynamics, that more life-like intensity and palpability and depth.

In comparing plasma with practically every other competing technology what I find distinguishes plasma is not only the high light output (and perfect geometry etc), and excellent ANSI contrast -- it's the "palpability" factor. The images on a good plasma have a "solidity" to them, a reach-in-and-touch-it factor, that I just don't quite get from front projection. Because front projection, even really bright front projection, still strikes me as what it is "light projected on a screen." And the blacks on front projection, no matter how dark, still look like "shadows on a screen." On projection devices (both rear and front) bright areas tend to remind me I'm seeing a screen with a bright light on it.

But the plasma light is just directly emitted. There is nothing "behind" the light to see, as it were, so the image never has a phantom-like or see-through quality. This, combined with the more life-like brightness and often convincing ANSI contrast makes plasma give more of a "window-on-reality" look, I find, with the best material.

So all that said, that is what I found the Panny 103" plasma did for images. It was the "plasma effect" but a front projection size. And that is what could make it so jaw dropping. When I saw the first scene in Ice Age 2 (Blu Ray) the camera soars slowly past glacier cliffs to find a character climbing an ice wall. The impression of going "around" solid-looking cliff walls was unlike I had ever seen from any projection device.
The whole landscape took on a more "I could walk right into" feeling, and the image in general just brought the characters and their world more alive than any projection I've seen.

Likewise with the live-action movies. Kingdom Of Heaven (Blu Ray) just looked incredible! And it wasn't an overly contrasty presentation of the image, as I see from some plasmas. The subtlety of color, shading, contrast, shadows was really amazing - very film-like. Yet the images stepped also into that solidity and realism that plasma does so well. Lots of people were coming through the room each time I viewed that movie and everyone was slack-jawed. All the projector salesmen said, as good as they thought their projectors were, nothing impressed like that huge Panasonic.

Fantastic Four (Blu Ray) was also you-are-there movie-geek nirvana. In fact, I think Panasonic had to really go to town in perfecting the processing for a plasma this large because one of the most amazing things about it is how little noise there is in the image. I mean...there was virtually NO noise in lots of the material I watched on the display - I've seen significantly more video noise on projectors, smaller plasmas and lots of RPTVs.

So yeah, I sure wouldn't kick this baby outta bed! :)

The only thing for me, being a black level fiend, is that the tougher-to-render low contrast or very dark scenes tend to show the shortcomings of this 1080p panel.
This first crop of 1080p plasmas (from Panasonic AND Pioneer) have apparently had to take a slight hit on black levels, because in order to achieve near the same relative brightness as the lower res models, the pixels of the 1080p models need a slightly higher "idle" charge (which keeps them from going blacker). So I could want some deeper black than I saw when I spun my torture-test BladeRunner SD DVD on the Panny.

But all in all, this display does deliver an effect that is mesmerizing, and different, from projection.

Cheers,

Not everybody is a brightness freak. Give me this with SED technology and I'm all eyes, but plasma with mediocre contrast and huge power bills? No thanks. I want real blacks and 12ftl are more than enough for daylight scenes in my black cave. No need to shove every compression issue, bit of noise and banding down my throat with superbright images and at the same time suffer milky dark scenes.
You know what? Somehow I have this feeling ;) that the people buying this aren't going to be sitting around worrying about contrast and compression artifacts. For God's sake, this is a super cool toy/display for people who have a LOT of money and want what this display will provide in spades...a HUGE BRIGHT thin ultra high-end TV. Nothing more, nothing less. Obsessed videophiles are not the target for this car any more than race car drivers are the target market for Rolls Royces :)!

Stop making sense Q*3. It's not very becoming of you.

You know what? Somehow I have this feeling ;) that the people buying this aren't going to be sitting around worrying about contrast and compression artifacts. For God's sake, this is a super cool toy/display for people who have a LOT of money and want what this display will provide in spades...a HUGE BRIGHT thin ultra high-end TV. Nothing more, nothing less. Obsessed videophiles are not the target for this car any more than race car drivers are the target market for Rolls Royces :)!

Very true.

But at the same time, it's an absolutely killer display, enough to amaze even many of us "videophiles"!

of course in 5 years (or probably less), you'll be able to get this for <$5000

this begs this question, when our kids grow up, what will the "standard" size tele be then? an entire wall?

of course in 5 years (or probably less), you'll be able to get this for <$5000
I'll assume you are exaggerating with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

You know what? Somehow I have this feeling ;) that the people buying this aren't going to be sitting around worrying about contrast and compression artifacts. For God's sake, this is a super cool toy/display for people who have a LOT of money and want what this display will provide in spades...a HUGE BRIGHT thin ultra high-end TV. Nothing more, nothing less. Obsessed videophiles are not the target for this car any more than race car drivers are the target market for Rolls Royces :)!
Yeah, but the claim was it blows away any front projector and this is not so if you are interested in certain image qualtity aspects where some front projectors are clearly better than this plasma. Now, if this is available with CRT blacks, motion response, color resolution (no banding etc.) and plasma brightness (-> SED) then we have something that arguably is superior to any front projector in all ways except absolute image size and maybe ANSI contrast. Now THAT would make my day. Maybe it will happen in 2009 or so.

Yeah, but the claim was it blows away any front projector and this is not so if you are interested in certain image qualtity aspects where some front projectors are clearly better than this plasma. Now, if this is available with CRT blacks, motion response, color resolution (no banding etc.) and plasma brightness (-> SED) then we have something that arguably is superior to any front projector in all ways except absolute image size and maybe ANSI contrast. Now THAT would make my day. Maybe it will happen in 2009 or so.


Hi

I have not seen the Panasonic 103 but it is quite possible that it could better most FP in many aeas. I have heard a lot about CRT black and film-like... Film as I have seen them countless of time are not CRT black and let us see film for what it is: A medium with certain flaws. That the flaws are often used for artistic purposes should not deter from what they truly are. I used to be a professional photographer in college, then as of now film grain was a problem. I moved from 35 mm to medium format (6 x6) then to 4 x5 for this reason ... 4 x 5 was far from portable or economical ... and 35 mm film did get better but...

I have found Plasma motion response to be really good. Blacks are not so great but are improving, color accuracy is often very good on, brightness uniformity a given, let us not talk about brightness or the reproduction of bright scenes where I sincerely believe plasmas surpass almost everything else. I am not a video expert, by the way but the new plasmas especially the Pioneer Elite PRO FHD1 are extremely good display devices and can give FP a run for the money... They belong in the best HTs. I have not seen the new Fujitsu but my own 50 inch tells me that it could be something special.

To illustrate my previous point about how they will have no trouble selling these monsters...

http://www.infocomm.org/cps/rde/xchg/SID-3F57FAC3-8C60A1EE/infocomm/hs.xsl/51_2607.htm

I'll assume you are exaggerating with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

not at all. care to make a wager?

as a general rule of thumb, I believe these consumer video products, due to rapidly evolving technology, and a hypercompetitve market, result in 50% reductions in cost about every year. That means, conservatively, 5-6 years to hit the $5000 price point.

The 70" xbr2 sony RPT fell from $7000 on introduction to around $4500 street in 6 months...

The 50" Panny plasma i bought (on super sale) at CC for $3200, is now available at $1800 (some 6 months later), on line.

so a 100" 1080P plasma, in 5 years, will be old technology (who knows what is in the pipeline), will not be cutting edge, will not be high resolution (probably 2K or 4K will be the top o' the heap), and will be facing massive price pressure.

I believe easily within 5 years, the 50 inch tv will be the entry level size. The 100" TV will be the most popular size overall.

After that, you might start to run into problems with the average size of the average room in the U.S.

These pannies where a dime a dozen on the showfloor, most of them were being used in portrait mode with lifesize humans being displayed, quite good.

...will not be high resolution (probably 2K or 4K will be the top o' the heap)...

Unless HDTV standards are amended, 1920x1080 is top dog for the next
decade or two. Higher resolutions just don't make sense in the mainstream
consumer market.

The next Mt. Everest to be conquered is 12 and 16 bits per color. Future
models will have 36 and 48bpp color spaces instead of the current 24bpp.
This is an improvement that all HT consumers can appreciate, even with a
"mere" 50-inch screen. Theoretically, HDMI 1.3 has enough bandwidth and I
expect large displays will eventually support 48bpp. But nobody knows which
display technology will triumph.

Anyway, you'll see prices plummet for the current 1080p displays after the
color-space-race becomes the new frontier.

LG also has a 102" plasma, but then you wouldn't have the largest.

Cineramax, did you see the Sharp 108" LCD? I thought it looked terrible. Lots of video noise, and misconvergence(?!) on the red in the upper left corner. Good from far, far from good.

Yeah it was pretty bad, reminiscent of an old in flight crt projection in the washed out department.

anyone seen the Sony xbr3 80" LCD? what did the image look like?

That would be 82", I missed it.

hmm....one day the SonyStyle website lists an 80" LCD XBR3,
now the SonyStyle website lists the XBR3 as 70" LCD (same price, at $32,999)

Sonystyle website (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=KDL70XBR3&Dept=tvvideo&CategoryName=tv_size_50to80)

anyone seen this beast?

That would be 82", I missed it.
you surely post a lot, but I'm not sure how this adds to the general knowledge base.....

If anyone's interested in checking out the Panasonic 103's in the Los Angeles area, there will be a few being used in the Robert Wilson video portrait exhibition at Ace Gallery opening this Friday.

103" arrieved on Brazil (@ São Paulo) this month, they're selling 103" for a really really cheap price, "just" USD$ 150k bucks.

AFAIK, Panasonic's has only sold 18 units of 103" models until date around the world (source: a Panasonic's executive here on show room).

Gradius

that number is very incorrect.

THey have sold at least a hundred. 50 to a sports stadium install. a rental company in the US called VER has bought some, and there are some others installed around.

THey looked really nice at infocomm last week