I am looking for a universal SACD and DVD-A player. I have no need for the use of the Oppo for video as I have an HD DVD player. Does anyone know about the OPPO for this use. I read the audioholics review and they talk about sound quality and bass management over the HDMI and analog outs. My receiver is a Yamaha 2500 so I would likely be using the optical out and wonder if I have the receiver do the decoding of the sound if the review actually will apply.

Any other information or any other universal player you can recommend would be helpful. I am not interested in spending $1K for a player unless I could get a jukebox type player that would hold hundreds of discs.

SACD can't be sent over optical. the 970HD can, however, convert the SACD DSD to PCM and send it over HDMI, but some AVRs have issues processing this HDMI signal.

i have my 970HD running a 2-channel analogue signal to my amp, and i'm quite pleased with the SACD and DVD-A sound, especially for the price. however, i have a very small hi-rez collection and no need at this point for a higher-end universal player.

VicAjax, thanks for the info. So, if I understand you correct, you have 2 channel analog running to your amp and does it then does your amp convert the signal to 5.1 channel sound or do you still only get 2 channel sound with the amp using one of it's technics to put 2 channel sound into all five speakers. My receiver does not have HDMI so analog would be the only way I can do it.

I have the new Eagles DVD video (the Melbourne Australia recorded disc) and it is in DTS sound. It sounds incredible. However, if I am not going to get this type of 5.1 sound, then I am not sure it is worth the cost. I was looking to get this sound quality from buying DVD-A and SACD rather than having to buy the DVD video versions (also, because there is much more of a music selection by having all three capabilities).

i'm running 2-channel analog because i have a 2-channel setup; i'm not really into the surround thing. if you want 5.1 for SACD and you don't have HDMI, then you would need to run 6 RCA cables from the player to receiver to send the full 5.1 signal in analog.

however, i'm fairly certain that DVD-A can be sent via optical/coaxial to the receiver.

however, i'm fairly certain that DVD-A can be sent via optical/coaxial to the receiver.

No, it can't. The only way to get SACD/DVD-A out of a player is via the 6-channel analog out (barring an advanced HDMI or proprietary connection). You then have to rely on the player's BM, delay, and possibly level settings to process the sound. Cheaper players rarely have complete options for this.

SACD can't be sent over optical. the 970HD can, however, convert the SACD DSD to PCM and send it over HDMI, but some AVRs have issues processing this HDMI signal.If you change the video resolution on the Oppo from 480i to 720P or 1080i, sacd's seem to work fine via hdmi.

No, it can't. The only way to get SACD/DVD-A out of a player is via the 6-channel analog out (barring an advanced HDMI or proprietary connection).

my mistake on DVD-A. however, the 970HD will pass DVD-A and PCM-converted SACD over HDMI.

like many other players, the 970HD does not preserve the true DSD signal of the SACD up until analog stage, converting it to PCM in the process. how much this degrades the audio quality is hotly debated. i don't have enough experience with SACD to have an opinion.

You then have to rely on the player's BM, delay, and possibly level settings to process the sound. Cheaper players rarely have complete options for this.

the 970HD has delay settings for center, rear and subwoofer channels, as well as individual trim settings for each channel.

as far as bass management, i'm again not entirely educated on the matter, as i only have a 2-channel system. it's a better bet to search this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=682896).

my limited understanding is that bass management in other players can only be applied if the signal is converted to PCM first, anyway. and since the bass signal of multi-channel hi-rez has its own dedicated channel, bass can still be tweaked to a certain degree by the AVR or at the subwoofer itself.

i have heard the Oppo against the Pioneer 45-A, and preferred the Oppo. i've seen other opinions comparing the Oppo's SACD/DVD-A performance favorably with the Denon 2900.

of course it's a budget player, and may not be a "giant-killer" per se. but its sound quality makes it easily worth the money.

Thanks for all the great information but you all have now lost me. So, let me list out what I think I am hearing.

1. I Can't use optical out for DVD A or SACD.
2. I can't use HDMI because my receiver does not have HDMI.
3. I have to run separate cables to my receiver and then use the bass management, etc. on the Oppo to get everything timed correctly.
4. Even if I run separate cables, I feel I am not truly getting 5.1 digital sound because I am running with RCA cables (this is my interpretation).

Are there any players that there is an easier interconnect? No wonder why SACD or DVD A has not caught on mainstream. It seems very difficult to use. With that said, I don't consider myself a novice at home entertainment (but I am one at the SACD and DVD A format). I do have an HD DVD player, Sanyo Z5 projector, Axiom speakers, SVS sub, bass shakers in my theater chairs, a monter power conditioner, and Yamaha 2500 receiver. At this point, I want sound from SACD and DVD A that I get when I buy a concert DVD of my favorite musicians. It does not seem as though I am going to get it.

Any suggestions? All your help is making me learn about this and it is appreciated, even though it is not what I want to hear and may make me think otherwise about moving to DVD A and SACD.

Even if I run separate cables, I feel I am not truly getting 5.1 digital sound because I am running with RCA cables (this is my interpretation).

Your interpretation is faulty. The "digital sound" gets converted to analog at some point, whether in the receiver/processor or in the player. It does not really matter, other than the inconvenience of having to run 6-cables. SACD/DVD-A were really meant to be run this way, you aren't missing out on anything!

Thanks for the clarification. That helps. So, now that I am back on board since I am not missing anything except for the inconvenience of running all those cables, back to the main issue. Since the bass management and other issues are poor with the Oppo, should I consider something else or is the audioholics review flawed? I am willing to spend a few hundred dollars but can't see spending up to 1K. Also, do I just use regular old RCA cables from say, BlueJeanscables.

Thanks for the clarification. That helps. So, now that I am back on board since I am not missing anything except for the inconvenience of running all those cables, back to the main issue. Since the bass management and other issues are poor with the Oppo, should I consider something else or is the audioholics review flawed? I am willing to spend a few hundred dollars but can't see spending up to 1K. Also, do I just use regular old RCA cables from say, BlueJeanscables.

the other issues aren't necessarily "poor" with the Oppo, i believe that is a misconception because it's a budget player. the tweakable settings are perfectly sufficient to begin enjoying 5.1 music in your setup, and the hi-rez sound from the Oppo is excellent for the price.

the editor-in-chief of The Absolute Sound thinks the 970HD is in fact a giant-killer, comparing its sound to NAD's new master-series universal player.

Thanks for the clarification. That helps. So, now that I am back on board since I am not missing anything except for the inconvenience of running all those cables, back to the main issue. Since the bass management and other issues are poor with the Oppo, should I consider something else or is the audioholics review flawed? I am willing to spend a few hundred dollars but can't see spending up to 1K. Also, do I just use regular old RCA cables from say, BlueJeanscables.
I am also looking for a reasonably priced universal player for SACD. I emailed Oppo today asking about many of these issues, but have not yet heard back. The manual does not mention bass management. But it does include the ability to set speaker size (large or small). So, I suspect the 970 has a fixed crossover (probably at 80 Hz). That's one of the questions. I also asked about the audio DACs, which play an important part in SQ. The 981 has 24 bit / 192 kHz DACs. But, there's mention of the DACs in the 970 spec sheet. I will let you know what I hear. (I am currently using a Panasonic S97, which has excellent DACs and works beautifully for DVD-Audio over the 5.1 analog outputs. But, it doesn't do SACD.)

Also, yes, regular RCA cables are fine. Quality is always better. But, there's nothing special about these cables.

One other note: Your HD-DVD player should be able to output Dolby True HD tracks, which are high resolution, multi-channel versions of movie sound tracks. But, if you don't have a receiver with HDMI, you will need to use the multichannel analog outputs from the HD player. Since, most receivers only have a single set of external analog inputs, you would have to choose between high res audio from the two players or get an A/B switch. Some fun, eh.

OK. Thanks for everyone's input. I am learning a lot.

I guess I am behind the times a bit with my understanding. I thought the optical connections was the best way to go. This is what I am using from my HD DVD to my receiver. It sounds that I must not be getting the true benefit of HD DVD sound quality though because I am not using HDMI or analogue outs. Should I switch the HD DVD to the analogue outs? How much better is the sound quality? The Eagles DVD in DTS I think sounds great. Also, I think the HD DVD movies I have seen sound very good. Maybe they will sound better or the incremental increase I will receive, a difference won't really be able to be noticed. Looking for more input? If I use the analogue, will I be able to play dvd-a in my HD DVD player? I can't seem to find anything in the manual.

Jay7, you are hardly alone. Most of us go through the same audio discovery process after investing in home theater. There's an excellent discussion of the new HD-DVD audio formats in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=640949

From this discussion, it sounds like HD players will take new high res tracks and bundle them into larger DTS packages for transmission on optical/coax connections. So, you are getting better than usual audio, but not the full glory of a format like Dolby TrueHD. For that, you will need to use a receiver with HDMI or the analog outputs. I've never heard an HD movie sound track, so I don't know how much better it will sound in high res. But, for music, the improvement of high resolution over DTS is definitely worth the time it takes to connect up the analog ports and do the bass managemnt and speaker delay adjustments on your player.

In general, optical and coax digital connections cannot carry unencrypted high res audio because of copy protection restrictions and bandwidth limitations. That means using HDMI or doing all the decoding in the player and using the player's analog outs.

Unfortunately, the new HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Disc players do not decode DVD-Audio or SACD. If you want to listen to high res audio from both your HD and DVD-Audio/SACD players on the receiver's analog inputs, you will need a switch. This thread has some suggestions:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9120438&highlight=analog+audio+switch+5+1+remote#post9120438

I suggest you try the analog path on both players. You may find that using optical for the improved DTS package on HD movies is plenty good enough. Or, you may just have to invest in a new receiver or an analog switch.

BIslander, great info thanks. Since I have not yet purchased a SACD/DVD-A player, I may be into this analogue thing. Not really interested in a new receiver, etc. at this time.

So, back to my question of the OPPO. Based on cost, does it fit the bill or should I look for something with a bit better control since I will have to use the analogue. I certainly don't want the sound to be odd because the bass management controls are such or am I splitting hairs with the bass management thing on the OPPO?

personally, i think you're splitting hairs, but you'd probably be best off asking the same question in the gigantic 970HD thread in the DVD player forum.

Does your receiver offer any bass management on the multi-channel input? Most don't, but some do, in which case you wouldn't use the Oppo's BM. I believe I remember seeing the Oppo's BM xover is 100Hz.

-Dave

Unfortunately, the new HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Disc players do not decode DVD-Audio or SACD.And the Sony and Pioneer won't even play CD's.

BIslander, great info thanks. Since I have not yet purchased a SACD/DVD-A player, I may be into this analogue thing. Not really interested in a new receiver, etc. at this time.

So, back to my question of the OPPO. Based on cost, does it fit the bill or should I look for something with a bit better control since I will have to use the analogue. I certainly don't want the sound to be odd because the bass management controls are such or am I splitting hairs with the bass management thing on the OPPO?
Two things. First, i heard back from Oppo with answers to questions about the 970 and 981 players:
-----
The internal DAC on the DV-981HD and the DV-970HD are the same Cyrus
Logic chipset. They are rated at 192Khz/24-bit. Bass management is
non-user adjustable. If you set the speakers to Small, all information
80Hz and lower will be sent to the subwoofer. Large will bypass the
subwoofer all together.

Both players convert DSD to PCM for multi-channel analog and HDMI
connections.

The DV-970HD is better designed for audio performance as it is a single,
4-layer PCB board which has the possibility of removing noise and other
interference artifacts. The DV-981HD is designed around 3 daughter
boards connected by ribbons. This lack of shielding can cause a loss of
audio fidelity.

Our DV-970HD has been favored over other DVD players for its price
point, and has been likened to players several times its cost for
DVD-Audio and SACD audio playback quality. The DV-981HD has similar
audio performance, with higher quality video de-interlacing and
scaling.

The video DAC in the DV-970HD is a MTK solution. We do not generally
recommend the use of the component output, for the simple reason that
they are protected by CSS. If a disc is CSS encrypted, then we will be
forced to 480p only. We generally prefer the HDMI output of the
DV-981HD for plasma displays.

On our Panasonic TH-42PX50U we have macroblocking errors with the
DV-981HD, but they are infrequent and only a minor inconvenience.

Best Regards,

Customer Service
OPPO Digital, Inc.
-----
Second, I found a Denon 2900 on eBay and bought it for $250, which seems like a good price for a machine that sold for $1,000 new a couple of years ago. Most everything I've read says the 2900 is an excellent player, better for audio than the models that replaced it. I'll know when it arrives next week. I am happy with my Panasonic S97 for video. So, I may end up using both if the Panny has better PQ than the Denon.

No, it can't. The only way to get SACD/DVD-A out of a player is via the 6-channel analog out (barring an advanced HDMI or proprietary connection). You then have to rely on the player's BM, delay, and possibly level settings to process the sound. Cheaper players rarely have complete options for this.


Yes you can pass the 2 ch. hi-rez PCM tracks which is also considered DVD-A, not just the surround tracks.Most receivers these days can accept 96/24 PCM via coaxial/optical inputs.

Jay7, I ran across a review you may finding helpful. The reviewer loves the Oppo 970, but says its one weakness is DVD-Audio/SACD playback through the analog outputs.

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/oppo_dv970hd.htm

interesting. they compare it to the 45-A and preferred the analog outs of the pioneer. i compared the two and found just the opposite.

the editor-in-chief of The Absolute Sound seems to agree (http://www.avguide.com/news/2006/12/12/insider-with-robert-harley-oppo-universal-player/).

here's a link to the full review in The Perfect Vision (http://www.avguide.com/products/product-3708/).

people seem to agree that it's not the last word in audio quality, but it's fantastic for the price.

According to Oppo, the 970HD may have higher quality 5.1 analog audio output than the 981HD.

Does that also apply to the LPCM output over HDMI as well? The Oppo response mentions possible interference from the extra PCBs on the 981HD, but this shouldn't affect the digital audio output over HDMI, correct? I just want to make sure there aren't any other design decisions that would produce higher quality LPCM audio over HDMI on the 970.

I remember reading in one of the threads here that the 970 adds a slight pause between tracks when playing SACDs - has this been fixed in the 981? Does this happen on all outputs, or only on HDMI or analog?

Thanks,
Sejin.

I just received this response from Oppo:

The same reason why the DV-970HD has better analog audio is the same reason why it will likely have the same advantage for the HDMI output.
The single board design will decrease noise and other errors through all outputs, including HDMI. For this reason, there will likely be a difference in audio quality between the DV-970HD and DV-981HD products for DVD-Audio and SACD audio.

Bass management is applied to all signals which have been decoded by the DVD player. This includes the HDMI output. The Crossover is 80Hz.

No, it can't.
Yes it can. It sends out a downsampled 44.1kHz 2 channel SPDIF stream.

Yes you can pass the 2 ch. hi-rez PCM tracks which is also considered DVD-A, not just the surround tracks.Most receivers these days can accept 96/24 PCM via coaxial/optical inputs.

Yes it can. It sends out a downsampled 44.1kHz 2 channel SPDIF stream.

ha! vindicated. :p

Yes it can. It sends out a downsampled 44.1kHz 2 channel SPDIF stream.
Nope, you can select on the 970 the sampling rate for for 44.1,96 or 192khz.
This is for the SPDIF output, as long as the disc authored that way and your downstream equipment can handle it the Oppo can supply it.But only 2 ch. though.

I remember reading in one of the threads here that the 970 adds a slight pause between tracks when playing SACDs - has this been fixed in the 981? Does this happen on all outputs, or only on HDMI or analog?

Thanks,
Sejin.

Yes it still happens on both players, and it is happens with DVD-A too. CD's are fine.

OP:
Even if you use analog 6-ch instead of HDMI, the Oppo is an excellent choice as a universal music (SACD/DVD-A/CD) player. I tested its analog output (CD) against my Nad C541i CD player, and found it hold its own. Not as refined as the 541i but still has excellent sound quality. Its bass management works well, except for the fixed crossover frequency, which would be no problem to most people. And as to the Audioholics' review, the poor quality HDMI audio they reported was due to a non-optimal HDMI audio setting. With a proper setting, the issue disappears. So, you don't have worry about your future purchase of HDMI-equipped receiver. Actually I'm very satisfied with the 970, connected to the Panny SA-XR57 receiver via HDMI.

Actually I'm very satisfied with the 970, connected to the Panny SA-XR57 receiver via HDMI.I just ordered my first DVD player with SACD (Oppo 970). I already have PS3, but it doesn't offer bass management. I am also using a Panny SA-XR57 while I await the new 2007 models from Denon and Pioneer.

I take it you use the bass management on the 970 with the XR57? Since the Panasonic won't apply a 10db gain to the LFE channel of multichannel LPCM input, did you apply any gain to the 970's speaker or subwoofer output?

Nope, you can select on the 970 the sampling rate for for 44.1,96 or 192khz.
This is for the SPDIF output, as long as the disc authored that way and your downstream equipment can handle it the Oppo can supply it.But only 2 ch. though.
Do you have one? I do, and I am telling you what I've seen.

VicAjax, thanks for the info. So, if I understand you correct, you have 2 channel analog running to your amp and does it then does your amp convert the signal to 5.1 channel sound or do you still only get 2 channel sound with the amp using one of it's technics to put 2 channel sound into all five speakers. My receiver does not have HDMI so analog would be the only way I can do it.

I have the new Eagles DVD video (the Melbourne Australia recorded disc) and it is in DTS sound. It sounds incredible. However, if I am not going to get this type of 5.1 sound, then I am not sure it is worth the cost. I was looking to get this sound quality from buying DVD-A and SACD rather than having to buy the DVD video versions (also, because there is much more of a music selection by having all three capabilities).

Jay7, IMO Eagles Hell Freezes Over sound a whole lot better than the Melbourne one. And Eagles Hotel California DVD-A makes HFO sound "constricted" and I think Hotel California was recorded 20 yrs before it. For $150, the Oppo is hard to beat. But the pauses between songs is annoying though.

FW

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but her goes.. The Oppo up converts what it reads off of a DVD.

Is there any way one can put sat video into the DVD box and use it to unpconvert the sat video signal, or is that only possible by using an actual seperate scaling unit?

Thanks

Don..

Do you have one? I do, and I am telling you what I've seen.

Then look again!

Yes I do have one.Go to the set up menu, chose the "audio set up page"[3rd icon] 4th item down called "LPCM Rate" choices are :48k,96K 192K.
For explanation see page 30 in the manual.

For $150, the Oppo is hard to beat. But the pauses between songs is annoying though.

i believe the latest firmware takes care of that.

The latest "beta" firmware released on November 14 eliminates the pauses between songs on SACDs. You can grab it from Oppo's site -- link (http://www.oppodigital.com/dv970hd/dv970hd-firmware-4a-1113.html).

i believe the latest firmware takes care of that.

Thanks for the headsup. I just flashed the firmware this morning. Haven't got a chance to check it out yet.

FW

Thanks for the headsup. I just flashed the firmware this morning. Haven't got a chance to check it out yet.

FW

Also please report if there is anything not working as supposed to. There is a reason this is a beta version. Thanks!

Also please report if there is anything not working as supposed to. There is a reason this is a beta version. Thanks!

I haven't got a chance to test till today. The firmware does work. I did not try DSOTM SACD but tried a convert SACD instead and the transition is seamless.

Happy New Year,

FW

Thanks, I updated it too, yes, it works like a charm. I did listen to Pink Floyd and it was seamless too.
Happy New Year to you too!

Unfortunately, the new HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Disc players do not decode DVD-Audio or SACD.

Just a note.. the PS3 does SACD, the Panasonic BR player does DVD-A.

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but her goes.. The Oppo up converts what it reads off of a DVD.

Is there any way one can put sat video into the DVD box and use it to unpconvert the sat video signal, or is that only possible by using an actual seperate scaling unit?

Thanks

Don..

You'll need a seperate video processor or an AVR that can scale and upconvert to your TV.

What a great thead, and I've learned a lot from it as I've been looking at getting the Oppo 970HD for it's upconverting and SACD/DVDA capabilities.

I see that I have to use the 6 analog audio cables to get multichannel sound from the SACDs and DVD-As.

I would have the player connected via component for video. Can I still have an optical or digital coax connection for Dolby Digital when watching movies?

Sorry, I know it's a very "newbie" question.

Also, I see there's a hack for the beta firmware which allows upconversion via component rather than just HDMI. Is this 'hack' talk allowed here?
I can use HDMI, but would rather not have a switcher as I already have another HDMI device (PS3).

I would have the player connected via component for video. Can I still have an optical or digital coax connection for Dolby Digital when watching movies?Yes.

On your receiver, just use optical or digital coax as default, and then click the button on your remote to switch over to the 6-channel analog whenever you play a SACD or DVD-A title.

Note you will get audio out of optical on SACDs and DVD-A disks, it just won't be high-fidelity; it will be either a 16/48 stereo downmix or lower-res DTS track on the disk for backward compatibility. Just remember to hit the button on your remote for 6-channel analog when playing SACD and DVD-A disks.

Just ordered one purely for DVD-A and SACD over HDMI, I'll use my HD-A2 for video. I have a Denon 2900 universal hooked up 5.1 analog now, and it'll be nice to have a smaller machine and just one cable. Sounds like the Oppo should hold its own sonically, but I won't be obsessing over it, or A/B-ing for days. ;)
Also, there was mention in the DVD forum thread here that the machine also adds a pause between DVD-A tracks, but that a fix is in the works.

Indeed, I used to own a 2900 and the difference between them sonically is remarkably close IMO especially for the price difference.

If using HDMI, I'd imagine I'd primarily be listening to the sonics of the chosen receiver, anyway, as that's where the D/A conversion and analog stages are.

If using HDMI, I'd imagine I'd primarily be listening to the sonics of the chosen receiver, anyway, as that's where the D/A conversion and analog stages are. Yes for most cases,

Except for SACD as the Oppo will convert DSD to PCM before sends it over to the receiver via HDMI, however it remains in digital form so yes D-A will happen down stream. Make sure you set the HDMI output[video] to either 720p or 1080i as this enables the connection for the highest bandwith available to transmit 5.1ch hi-rez PCM.

Yes.

On your receiver, just use optical or digital coax as default, and then click the button on your remote to switch over to the 6-channel analog whenever you play a SACD or DVD-A title.

Note you will get audio out of optical on SACDs and DVD-A disks, it just won't be high-fidelity; it will be either a 16/48 stereo downmix or lower-res DTS track on the disk for backward compatibility. Just remember to hit the button on your remote for 6-channel analog when playing SACD and DVD-A disks.

Thank you very much, going to order that Oppo player now.

What receivers do the HDMI processing?

RJ :D

What receivers do the HDMI processing?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=738511

Except for SACD as the Oppo will convert DSD to PCM before sends it over to the receiver via HDMI, however it remains in digital form so yes D-A will happen down stream. Make sure you set the HDMI output[video] to either 720p or 1080i as this enables the connection for the highest bandwith available to transmit 5.1ch hi-rez PCM.
Got it...thanks. According to Oppo, SACD is sent as 88.2kHz PCM, not sure about bit depth.

Let's say you use the analog 5.1 outputs on the Oppo. I only have two speakers on my 7.1 channel Onkyo 703, so I have the speakers set to large (no sub). I would set the speaker setting to large on the Oppo as well, just so that bass is still sent out. If I set them to small, the bass would never reach the receiver. Or would it?

Jack

Thank for the direction. So I will have to use the analog outputs of the Oppo because I have a Arcam AVP700 as a preamp?

RJ

Jack

Thank for the direction. So I will have to use the analog outputs of the Oppo because I have a Arcam AVP700 as a preamp?

RJ
I'm not familiar with it, but if it's not HDMI, you use the analogs.

Let's say you use the analog 5.1 outputs on the Oppo. I only have two speakers on my 7.1 channel Onkyo 703, so I have the speakers set to large (no sub). I would set the speaker setting to large on the Oppo as well, just so that bass is still sent out. If I set them to small, the bass would never reach the receiver. Or would it?

...........and why would you wanna do that?