The 5 car garage I mentioned is a pretty good theater room. It is fully insulated, and is surprisingly neutral, too.

The A7-900 will shake the entire room, and sounds good doing so, too.

Look for it and the Ultra to do very well in the scoring.

MRL ... The Epik line of subwoofers looks very solid. Chad made his mark in the world of raw drivers for the DIY community, and seems to be intent on delivering a product that can compete with DIY, except the person won't need to do anything but open the box, calibrate the sub, and enjoy.

It will be interesting to see if he succeeds.

Craig, I read somewhere in this thread that you were going to give us a "music" ranking of the subs.

I'll second the request. I'm looking for "Music" ratings of subs. I love pipe organ and other 'classical' music. I've read that I might need "Music" sub(s) and a separate HT sub. Any thoughts?

I'm designed a new, small (1500 cu. ft.) Music/HT room as we speak.

Always looking for the best performance for the money.

Hi Craigsub,

I have just joind this forum from the UK because you do seem to know what you are talking about "great threads" thank you.

Allot of people seem to be buying the PB ultra Does that mean that the PC ultra13 is not that good compared to the box brother???

I am looking at two Sunfire Sig EQ Or two SVS PC13 ultra's i keep reading up on the SVS range thay do sound good on paper, But they are new to the UK shoers.

Best Reagrds

Ashmanuk

So Craig, do you make housecalls? I live about 30 miles south of you and have no clue if i have my subwoofer (axiom ep500) set up right or not. Everything shakes and rumbles like it should but i find my ears plugging up after a while..feels like i'm on an airplane when they're pressurizing the cabin for takeoff :P

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points
Velodyne DD-18: 100 points
Def Tech Trinity: 97 points
ACI Maestro: 97 points
JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo: 91 points
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points
Axiom EP-500: 90 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo: 88 points
SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points
SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo: 86 points
Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
Acculine A-sub: 85 points (provisional, production to restart in November, 2007)
Elemental Designs A2-300: 83 points
SVS PB10-NSD: 83 points
Dana Audio 600: 83 points (exceptional musical performer)
Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
BIC H-100: 78 points
Rocket Tyke: 60 points

Pending subwoofers ...


Elemental Designs A7-900 ... Being tested now
Creative Sounds DIY project ... Being tested now
SVS PB13-Ultra ... Being tested now
AV123 BMF ... Not sure of date
AV123 MFW-15 ... Not sure of date
Epik Subwoofers ... The Castle and Conquest ... Not sure of date.

Craig, can you update your post on the 1st page? :)

Craig, can you update your post on the 1st page? :)

New27 has to do it since he started this thread

Does that mean that the PC ultra13 is not that good compared to the box brother???

this link might help a little on that question:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=892690

Guys, Here is the updated list, with the long overdue scoring of Home Theater and music performance.

Here is the scoring summary with the Home Theater score and Music score, respectively shown as (HT-M).

JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points (53-50)
Velodyne DD-18: 100 points (50-50)
Def Tech Trinity: 97 points (54-43)
ACI Maestro: 97 points (47-50)
JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo: 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo: 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500: 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo: 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo: 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Acculine A-sub: 85 points (provisional, production to restart in November, 2007) (40-45)
Elemental Designs A2-300: 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD: 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600: 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub: 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100: 78 points (40-38)
Rocket Tyke: 60 points (If you care, PM me ... :))

Pending subwoofers ...


Elemental Designs A7-900 ... In testing now
Creative Sounds DIY project ... In testing now
SVS PB13-Ultra ... In testing now
AV123 BMF ... Not sure of date
AV123 MFW-15 ... Not sure of date
Epik Castle and Conquest ... Not sure of date

Guys, Here is the updated list, with the long overdue scoring of Home Theater and music performance.Craig, that makes a ton of sense now that I see a breakdown of your number. Thanks.

I thought the A-sub did better than the A2-300 on WOTW. How did it end up 4 points behind for HT?

I thought the A-sub did better than the A2-300 on WOTW. How did it end up 4 points behind for HT?

measurements are only a part of the process

subjective listening plays a big part also

That scoring really adds a wealth of info.

Eva Mendez for the person who asked a couple pages ago. ;)

craigsub, thanks for the update. When will the scoring be completed for the 3 subs you are currently testing. Thanks!

measurements are only a part of the process

subjective listening plays a big part also

Well, I can only buy on the ratings here since it will not be possible for me to hear any of these without making a purchase. My question is why did the A-Sub score 4 points less than the ED for HT? Where did it fell down?

this link might help a little on that question:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=892690

Thanks OTK for the quick reply Theo the that went slightly off topic LOL:D

Craigsub I would love to see what you think on this???

Well, I can only buy on the ratings here since it will not be possible for me to hear any of these without making a purchase. My question is why did the A-Sub score 4 points less than the ED for HT? Where did it fell down?

The A2-300 will deliver bass to below 20 Hz, and will energize a room more than will the A-sub.

Hope this makes sense without getting into one of my long winded explanations .. :o

Here is a graph of the A2-300 @ 16 Hz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/A216Hz.jpg

The A2-300 will deliver bass to below 20 Hz, and will energize a room more than will the A-sub.

Hope this makes sense without getting into one of my long winded explanations .. :o

This will do. IF you gave it a higher rating for HT, I will decide to get it. I was under the impression from our discussion a few days ago that the A-Sub would be better.

This will do. IF you gave it a higher rating for HT, I will decide to get it. I was under the impression from our discussion a few days ago that the A-Sub would be better.

The WOTW scene is predominant above 20 Hz ... and the A-sub is better there, in terms of tactile feel in terms of punching one in the chest.

Where the A2-300 gains is in the room shaking of infrasonic bass - the A-Sub just cannot go below about 22 Hz ...

Guys, Here is the updated list, with the long overdue scoring of Home Theater and music performance.
I now have the Axiom EP-500 and like it very much. Reading threads like this seems to be dangerous. Typical upgraditis now has me wondering what your thoughts are on how it compares to the new SVS PB13-Ultra for music use? I had the VTF3MK2 which was I found great for music but sold that for a SVS PB12-NSD which just didnt sound as good as either the EP or VTF. I am wondering if for music is it an SVS thing or just the PB12-NSD?

John

This will do. IF you gave it a higher rating for HT, I will decide to get it. I was under the impression from our discussion a few days ago that the A-Sub would be better.

It depends on what you're looking for, hence the subjectivity. After taking all the information in, it looks like: if you're looking for more extension, the A2-300 is better, and you're looking for more output, the A-Sub is better.

I now have the Axiom EP-500 and like it very much. Reading threads like this seems to be dangerous. Typical upgraditis now has me wondering what your thoughts are on how it compares to the new SVS PB13-Ultra for music use? I had the VTF3MK2 which was I found great for music but sold that for a SVS PB12-NSD which just didnt sound as good as either the EP or VTF. I am wondering if for music is it an SVS thing or just the PB12-NSD?

John

John, The new Ultra-13 definitely places SVS into the elite subwoofer class in terms of musical performance. I have sold my EP-500's, but I did compare the EP-500's to my Hsu VTF-3 HO's ... and am now comparing the VTF-3 HO's to the Ultra.

Look for the Ultra and Creative Sounds subs to wrap up this weekend.

I now have the Axiom EP-500 and like it very much. Reading threads like this seems to be dangerous. Typical upgraditis now has me wondering what your thoughts are on how it compares to the new SVS PB13-Ultra for music use? I had the VTF3MK2 which was I found great for music but sold that for a SVS PB12-NSD which just didnt sound as good as either the EP or VTF. I am wondering if for music is it an SVS thing or just the PB12-NSD?

John

Hi John.

Let my try to give you good (money saving) advice for what it's worth. All of the subs you have tried are good subs. I don't know what your routine is as far as setup and calibration goes, but I would suggest before continuing to chase the holy grail by upgrading, that you spend some time maximizing the sound that you can get out of your current sub. I think you will find that almost all subs that are of decent quality to begin with, can be made to sound better by taking the time and effort to gat the best possible sound out of them. That applies to both HT and music.

Interesting that only the sealed subwoofers hit 50 points in musical fidelity (even the lower-scored Rocket UFW12). I wonder if the PB13 will break the mold.

John, The new Ultra-13 definitely places SVS into the elite subwoofer class in terms of musical performance. I have sold my EP-500's, but I did compare the EP-500's to my Hsu VTF-3 HO's ... and am now comparing the VTF-3 HO's to the Ultra.

Look for the Ultra and Creative Sounds subs to wrap up this weekend.

Unfortunately we didn't get the HO sold here so I never got to hear one. I imagine the HO is better than my now sold VTF3MK2 which was very good musically. I look forward to your comparing the HO to the Ultra. If you say its better than the HO then I will definitely try one as Sonic Boom Audio sell them here in Canada.

John

It depends on what you're looking for, hence the subjectivity. After taking all the information in, it looks like: if you're looking for more extension, the A2-300 is better, and you're looking for more output, the A-Sub is better.

ah man. I hate it when I am not an audiophile to understand this. I am not sure what I want the HT to sound like. What am I missing with one of these vs. the other? I understand what craig stated about being punched in the chess, I want that. I can relate to that. What I cannot relate to is what am I missing not getting the "room shaking of infrasonic bass" effect for HT use? I always thought the sub to get for HT was one that went below 20 Hz.

Sorry about this.

Hi John.

Let my try to give you good (money saving) advice for what it's worth. All of the subs you have tried are good subs. I don't know what your routine is as far as setup and calibration goes, but I would suggest before continuing to chase the holy grail by upgrading, that you spend some time maximizing the sound that you can get out of your current sub. I think you will find that almost all subs that are of decent quality to begin with, can be made to sound better by taking the time and effort to gat the best possible sound out of them. That applies to both HT and music.
Mojomike I moved my system into a bigger room which is why I started looking for an upgrade. I spend a lot of time on setup. I was aiming for VTF3HO/s but Hsu stopped selling here and I didn't want to deal with the USA import issues. As a guide I like the sound of music using the DD18 but its way out of my price range.

John

ah man. I hate it when I am not an audiophile to understand this. I am not sure what I want the HT to sound like. What am I missing with one of these vs. the other? I understand what craig stated about being punched in the chess, I want that. I can relate to that. What I cannot relate to is what am I missing not getting the "room shaking of infrasonic bass" effect for HT use? I always thought the sub to get for HT was one that went below 20 Hz.

I generally prefer sacrificing the sub-20hz stuff in order to achieve higher output (until you max out what you need). Neither will give you room shaking infrasonic bass. If the only reason the A2-300 received more points, was due to more sub-20hz output, I'd forget about it and get the A-Sub, IMO.

ah man. I hate it when I am not an audiophile to understand this. I am not sure what I want the HT to sound like. What am I missing with one of these vs. the other? I understand what craig stated about being punched in the chess, I want that. I can relate to that. What I cannot relate to is what am I missing not getting the "room shaking of infrasonic bass" effect for HT use? I always thought the sub to get for HT was one that went below 20 Hz.

Sorry about this.

Typically, the "punch in the chest" is bass on the 30-50 Hz range, where "pressurizing the room" is below 25 Hz.

The room pressure effect is often not even heard, and sometimes, it even causes a feeling of "unease" in some listeners.

I generally prefer sacrificing the sub-20hz stuff in order to achieve higher output (until you max out what you need). Neither will give you room shaking infrasonic bass. If the only reason the A2-300 received more points, was due to more sub-20hz output, I'd forget about it and get the A-Sub, IMO.

I would agree, with the one caveat being the A-sub is not currently available.

I erred in posting the score, thinking it was ready to deliver. As the saying goes, one cannot "un-ring" the bell. :o

Mojomike I moved my system into a bigger room which is why I started looking for an upgrade. I spend a lot of time on setup. I was aiming for VTF3HO/s but Hsu stopped selling here and I didn't want to deal with the USA import issues. As a guide I like the sound of music using the DD18 but its way out of my price range.

John

That PB-13Ultra could be right up your alley. It does everything well.

ok, now if only the A-Sub could begin production. Thanks craig and Lindahl.

Thanks for the update Craig, thanks for updating the first page as well. Can't wait to see how the HO compares to the PB13.

Typically, the "punch in the chest" is bass on the 30-50 Hz range, where "pressurizing the room" is below 25 Hz.

The room pressure effect is often not even heard, and sometimes, it even causes a feeling of "unease" in some listeners.

Are you trying to say that the elusive "brown note" lives under 25Hz?

Personally, I get giddy when you can hear just the slight wall/ceiling flex...makes me feel like I'm in the last scene of The Matrix.

As for the kick in the chest bass...there's a reason most car audio amps have a bass boost around 45Hz :)

I am wondering which sub gives you a stronger pressurization feeling with the sub-25Hz bass, SVS Ultra 13 VS the Def Tech Trinity... Craig or anyone else with experience care to comment?

Craig, can I ask you what you think of the Velodyne F1200? I know my sub is over 10 years old, but I really like this thing. It's only rated at 100 watts, but i like the sealed design, and it really puts out some deep bass - 20hz test tones don't drop off in volume, and I don't have any lower test tones. I'm trying to decide what sealed sub to follow it up with when I move my theater to a 14 x 20 room (its only in a 9 x 12 now).

Craig, can I ask you what you think of the Velodyne F1200? I know my sub is over 10 years old, but I really like this thing. It's only rated at 100 watts, but i like the sealed design, and it really puts out some deep bass - 20hz test tones don't drop off in volume, and I don't have any lower test tones. I'm trying to decide what sealed sub to follow it up with when I move my theater to a 14 x 20 room (its only in a 9 x 12 now).
If I may, the F1200, was a very nice sub in it's day. I'm guessing the F1200 is closer to 15 years old (maybe not yours; I think I bought mine around 1992). By today's standards, the F1200 is more in the "woofer" catagory. It falls off quickly below 20Hz. I think it still does a good job with music; however, it falls short for HT. You might compare the F1200 to the SVS PB12 plus today.

My HT room is the same size room your proposing. I replaced my F1200 with a JL f113 last fall and the difference is more than night and day. Go out and listen to some of the new subs.

If I may, the F1200, was a very nice sub in it's day. I'm guessing the F1200 is closer to 15 years old (maybe not yours; I think I bought mine around 1992). By today's standards, the F1200 is more in the "woofer" catagory. It falls off quickly below 20Hz. I think it still does a good job with music; however, it falls short for HT. You might compare the F1200 to the SVS PB12 plus today.

My HT room is the same size room your proposing. I replaced my F1200 with a JL f113 last fall and the difference is more than night and day. Go out and listen to some of the new subs.

Zero the Hero ... What he said ... :)

ok, now if only the A-Sub could begin production. Thanks craig and Lindahl.

Hi tradewinds; it shall shortly.

I'm going to go out on an uncharacteristic limb and say that following a conversation I had with the supplier just today, we could be looking at units on hand in 6 weeks, or shall we say, Nov 1 to be a little more conservative. This assumes no unforeseens; our mileage may vary. ;)

In order to try and sweeten the pot, I think we'll also hold current pricing for any reservations received before we start shipping again, and include freight to the lower 48. At arrival of the next lot, we'll likely go to at least $299 plus freight.

I'm really sorry I don't have a better ETA, but we really hadn't any gage on demand until recently. I'm not sure we've gotten this many emails on any one item ever. :)

Jon, up until what date do I have to place an order for the old price with the free shipping?

Also, do you have a photo of this sub?

Thanks.

It would be interesting to see how the A2-300 and the A sub could handle low sustained bass effects from the likes of such movies as Pulse. My biggest complaint about some of these budget subs is the port cuffing that is induced when playing those kind of effects which are becoming more common in todays dynamic audio tracks.

Ian

Pulse at high volume will challenge many ported subs because there is so much energy concentrated in the 18-20hz range. Even larger ported subs may struggle somewhat with Pulse depending on their tuning point and their low filtering.

It would be interesting to see how the A2-300 and the A sub could handle low sustained bass effects from the likes of such movies as Pulse. My biggest complaint about some of these budget subs is the port cuffing that is induced when playing those kind of effects which are becoming more common in todays dynamic audio tracks.

Ian

I will test this with my A3-300[$450.00] soon and get back to you...any specific chapters?

Please provide time stamp, thanks.:)

Try approximately 1:12:40 through 1:13:20.

Pulse at high volume will challenge many ported subs because there is so much energy concentrated in the 18-20hz range. Even larger ported subs may struggle somewhat with Pulse depending on their tuning point and their low filtering.

18-20 hertz? really? I always thought it was lower like 10 hertz I never looked into it much since the movie was kind of boring, btw my ported sub loves 18-20 hertz :)

Try approximately 1:12:40 through 1:13:20.

Here are my settings:

Onkyo 805
7.1 speakers
Sub-A3-300: level at 1pm, phase at 90 and crossover at 12 oclock

I listened to that scene 3 times at my prefered listening volume of -20db, subwoofer level was flat and no EQ and fronts are +1. The sub didnt even break a sweat and you can feel the pressure. Bass was smooth, tight fast and there was no port puffing whatsoever. I am sure I could turn it up but I like the blend I have now. I still cant believe it cost $450.00 out the door.:)

Pulse at high volume will challenge many ported subs because there is so much energy concentrated in the 18-20hz range. Even larger ported subs may struggle somewhat with Pulse depending on their tuning point and their low filtering.

I'd love to see how the PB-13 and the PC-13 Handle this scene.

Really it is what pushed me to buy my 16-46+. No chuffing from it even at high volumes!

Here are my settings:

Onkyo 805
7.1 speakers
Sub-A3-300: level at 1pm, phase at 90 and crossover at 12 oclock

I listened to that scene 3 times at my prefered listening volume of -20db, subwoofer level was flat and no EQ and fronts are +1. The sub didnt even break a sweat and you can feel the pressure. Bass was smooth, tight fast and there was no port puffing whatsoever. I am sure I could turn it up but I like the blend I have now. I still cant believe it cost $450.00 out the door.:)


What SPL were you getting?

I am wondering which sub gives you a stronger pressurization feeling with the sub-25Hz bass, SVS Ultra 13 VS the Def Tech Trinity... Craig or anyone else with experience care to comment?

The new Ultra does ... The Def Tech is killer above about 20 Hz, but is not that strong in infrasonics.

Jon, up until what date do I have to place an order for the old price with the free shipping?

Also, do you have a photo of this sub?

Thanks.

If I read Jon's post correctly, you can order one for $289 shipped up until they do start shipping again. That looks like somewhere between 6 weeks and Nov 1.

I am assuming that one's credit card won't get charged until the sub ships ... perhaps Jon can start a thread on TAI and link to it.

Mojomike I moved my system into a bigger room which is why I started looking for an upgrade. I spend a lot of time on setup. I was aiming for VTF3HO/s but Hsu stopped selling here and I didn't want to deal with the USA import issues. As a guide I like the sound of music using the DD18 but its way out of my price range.


John,

I think you have a pretty solid purchase in the ep500, noone talks about them much on this forum but they're a solid performer. If you look at Craigs rankings and do a price check on all the subs that scored higher you'll see some pretty huge price differences, only the HSU sub that scored slightly higher is around the same.

To me at least that means that dollar for dollar the Ep500 is a great sub.

18-20 hertz? really? I always thought it was lower like 10 hertz I never looked into it much since the movie was kind of boring, btw my ported sub loves 18-20 hertz :)

The movie sucks. The only it's good for is bass testing.

Here are my settings:

Onkyo 805
7.1 speakers
Sub-A3-300: level at 1pm, phase at 90 and crossover at 12 oclock

I listened to that scene 3 times at my prefered listening volume of -20db, subwoofer level was flat and no EQ and fronts are +1. The sub didnt even break a sweat and you can feel the pressure. Bass was smooth, tight fast and there was no port puffing whatsoever. I am sure I could turn it up but I like the blend I have now. I still cant believe it cost $450.00 out the door.:)

That's good, but at -20db, that ain't a test. Kick it up a bit and break out the SPL meter, but be careful and do it a little at a time. Take a look at bgillyjcu's old thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=820187&highlight=pulse
I'd love to see how the PB-13 and the PC-13 Handle this scene.

Really it is what pushed me to buy my 16-46+. No chuffing from it even at high volumes!

That's because you are tuned comfortably below the strongest content of that scene.

Craig, do you still use your SMS-1 ? Is it in your system permanently ?

Heinrich S ... I use the SMS-1 with the commercial subs, and the Behringer DEQ-2496 with the DIY stuff.

Why do you use the Behringer with the DIY stuff ? Does the SMS-1 not perform to your liking ?

Sorry I'm asking these questions. I just got my SMS-1 today and I have been told that the subsonic filter will be disabled completely by Curt. I've got an SVS subwoofer that extends down to 15 hz or so.

Just want to know what your thoughts are. Thanks.

If I read Jon's post correctly, you can order one for $289 shipped up until they do start shipping again. That looks like somewhere between 6 weeks and Nov 1.

I am assuming that one's credit card won't get charged until the sub ships ... perhaps Jon can start a thread on TAI and link to it.

Correct, craigsub. And here (https://www.theaudioinsider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=663) we go for a reservation thread.

I just got my SMS-1 today...
Hey, me too! Well, last night actually, but I'm just messin' with it today. :)

Why do you use the Behringer with the DIY stuff ? Does the SMS-1 not perform to your liking ?

Sorry I'm asking these questions. I just got my SMS-1 today and I have been told that the subsonic filter will be disabled completely by Curt. I've got an SVS subwoofer that extends down to 15 hz or so.

Just want to know what your thoughts are. Thanks.

When building a DIY project, you have to understand you are working with combination of amps and drivers that have no equalization being done.

With, for example, an SVS subwoofer, there is eq built into the amplifier that will achieve the nice, flat response curve you see in testing.

While none of us has the "non-equalized" graphs available to see, if you took a sub from SVS or Hsu, and bypassed the Plate amp, and used a pro-amp to drive the woofer directly, the response curve would look a lot different than what it looks like with the installed plate amp.

The DIY sub will require that the system AND the room be Eq'ed. The SMS-1 is designed to correct room problems, which is why it deals mostly with lowering peaks, while having some smaller ability to flatten system response curves.

The Behringer 2496 will allow one to take a DIY project and flatten both the system and room response.

Craig, I can't remember what you said about how to score a PAIR of subs...

For example, if one Acculine A-sub is worth 85 points (40+45), what would a pair of A-subs be worth?

Craig, thanks for your reply ! I only wish that the SMS-1 could "see" frequency response problems up to 300 hz and also be able to boost/cut in that region. Oh well, we can always hope. :)

Thats good, but at -20db, that ain't a test. Kick it up a bit and break out the SPL meter, but be careful and do it a little at a time.

It was too late for me to turn it up anymore. I dont have a spl. Do you mean turn uo reciever volume or level of sub?

It was too late for me to turn it up anymore. I dont have a spl. Do you mean turn uo reciever volume or level of sub?

I mean turning up the regular receiver volume, but during the day of course.:D

John,

I think you have a pretty solid purchase in the ep500, noone talks about them much on this forum but they're a solid performer. If you look at Craigs rankings and do a price check on all the subs that scored higher you'll see some pretty huge price differences, only the HSU sub that scored slightly higher is around the same.

To me at least that means that dollar for dollar the Ep500 is a great sub.
I agree its a solid sounding subwoofer. However I am always on the lookout for the best within my CAN$1600 budget. That's why the question on the EP500 vs PB13U, taking into account my emphasis is on music accuracy. I found the PB12NSD not nearly as articulate as my old VTF3Mk2 and the EP500 slightly better than the VTF. So I am curious to see where the newer PB13U sits in the scheme of things. I really like the fact that Craig gives his listening impressions on how these subs compare because for me having the loudest sub is not my priority.


John

I found the PB12NSD not nearly as articulate as my old VTF3Mk2 and the EP500 slightly better than the VTF. So I am curious to see where the newer PB13U sits in the scheme of things.

John

Hi John,

I have both the HSU VTF-3.3 and SVS PB13-Ultra in house now and to my ears the new Ultra is more articulate than the 3.3, noticeably tighter and with less distortion while also being more dynamic. And the build quality is vastly superior, as it should be considering the price difference. SVS has really hit a major home run with this design! Craig's soon to be released listening updates on the Ultra should be interesting to say the least.

Now to find out what kind of magic Chad has cooked up with the new Epik subs...:D

Cheers,
Ross

John,

I think you have a pretty solid purchase in the ep500, none talks about them much on this forum but they're a solid performer. If you look at Craigs rankings and do a price check on all the subs that scored higher you'll see some pretty huge price differences, only the HSU sub that scored slightly higher is around the same.

To me at least that means that dollar for dollar the Ep500 is a great sub.

Love my EP500! It can play as loud as I want in my large HT room, go as deep as I'd dare w\o cracking the sheetrock, but be as rich and articulate as a fine tuned orchestral string section.:D

However, if I were purchasing today, think I'd have to depart with the additional $300 for the PB13U! ;)

Ted

Now to find out what kind of magic Chad has cooked up with the new Epik subs...:D
Yes... I'm getting anxious about that myself.

Hey guys, are there any subs that are smaller than the new SVS Ultra and less expensive than the JL F113 that when used in a pair of two will equal the sound quality and output of either of these subs?

Hey guys, are there any subs that are smaller than the new SVS Ultra and less expensive than the JL F113 that when used in a pair of two will equal the sound quality and output of either of these subs?

I am very interested in this as well

the JL sure seems like a great choice, but is pricey

the SVS seems great too, and the price is right, but its a beast (27" deep?! :eek:)

if i could find two smaller subs that would equal one JL or SVS Ultra that would be great

Hey guys, are there any subs that are smaller than the new SVS Ultra and less expensive than the JL F113 that when used in a pair of two will equal the sound quality and output of either of these subs?

The JL f112. (x2) The problem is that a pair will still run you at least $4000.

The problem is that a pair will still run you at least $4000.
Well, then, that's not less expensive than the F113, is it? ;)

Earthquake subs dont seem to get too much love?

you can pick up a pair of SuperNova MKV-12p's for less than $2000 shipped

size wise, they are slightly smaller than the F113

could they compete with one SVS Ultra or F113?

It's just a matter of physics. The smaller you get, the more the law of physics works against you. You then need much more amp power, stronger drivers with longer excursions, and possibly more than one sub just to equal one well designed big sub. It adds up to a much greater cost.

SoundsGood, have you considerd DIY?

SoundsGood, have you considerd DIY?
I can't even hold a hammer. ;)

Well, then, that's not less expensive than the F113, is it? ;)

are you enjoying your new sms-1 ?

any before and after caps? :D

I can't even hold a hammer. ;)

ROFL!

I can't even hold a hammer. ;)

i'm the same way. but i can use a screwdriver. i was able to put my 3 JL 10's in a pre-fab Q-logic sealed box for my truck

i like what craig did with the Ed box and SDX drivers (and he seems to be very happy with them) :)

I can't even hold a hammer. ;)

Well if your in so cal you can have my friend who built mine build one for you, He isn't cheap but if you don't like his pricing and don't mind unperfect cut I can build it for you (I have ganahl lumber cut me the box but they usually don't do perfect cuts)

But in about a month I will have my own table saw and garage to work out of :)

I can't even hold a hammer. ;)

The way around that is to get the boxes built by someone else. For example, that huge black box in Craig's room was built for him by ED.

Visit the folks on the DIY Speaker and Sub forum and post what you are trying to achieve. I know you will get a bunch of suggestions about the box, the drivers and the amps.

But in about a month I will have my own table saw and garage to work out of :)

This sounds to me like a start up subwoofer company. :)

Hmmm.. The Iggster Epicenter

Soundsgood ... You will learn pretty quickly that small and DIY (assuming you want REALLY good performance) are tough to fit in the same sentence ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2040.jpg

This sounds to me like a start up subwoofer company. :)

Hmmm.. The Iggster Epicenter

well actually not a table saw more like a panel saw :)

I plan on having allot of meets at the new house to show what my subs can do and maybe get some customers out of it :)

craigsub

DIY subs can be big or small thats the neat thing about DIY you can have it built to whatever dimensions YOU want. (as long as the driver is in the proper air space)

My sub isn't that big but it sure has good output :)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/subingncali/c4b2f44b.jpg


once I move out its getting painted high gloss black to match my def tech setup and its getting a twin :)

heres the FR graph (listening position with no smoothing)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/subingncali/b3cf28ec.jpg

well actually not a table saw more like a panel saw :)

I plan on having allot of meets at the new house to show what my subs can do and maybe get some customers out of it :)

craigsub

DIY subs can be big or small thats the neat thing about DIY you can have it built to whatever dimensions YOU want. (as long as the driver is in the proper air space)

My sub isn't that big but it sure has good output :)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/subingncali/c4b2f44b.jpg


once I move out its getting painted high gloss black to match my def tech setup and its getting a twin :)

heres the FR graph (listening position with no smoothing)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/subingncali/b3cf28ec.jpg

Iggster ... What are the dimensions of your subwoofer ? "Small" is a relative term ... The Ultra is only 27 inches deep, 22 inches tall and 20.5 inches wide.

To a lot of people, that is pretty big .. but in the world of DIY, it is pretty small, especially for a subwoofer capable of delivering 107 dB Ground plane @ 20 Hz (2 meter groundplane).

Iggster ... What are the dimensions of your subwoofer ? "Small" is a relative term ... The Ultra is only 27 inches deep, 22 inches tall and 20.5 inches wide. Well since I plan on selling it I don't want to give out the dimension just yet but Ill say this it will fit in a 33x25x20 space...

Here is the tv stand I am using, and look at the dimensions so you can get an idea of the box dimensions. says Measures 23-5/8"H x 59-3/4"W x 24-3/8"D

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7870583&type=product&id=1142302231089


To a lot of people, that is pretty big .. but in the world of DIY, it is pretty small, especially for a subwoofer capable of delivering 107 dB Ground plane @ 20 Hz (2 meter groundplane).

Dunno what mine does at groundplane but on the termlab meter, it measured 126.7 at 18 hertz in my 1000 cubic foot room (sealed) and it looks like it may have more capability after some test's me and a friend did on sunday.

Craig,

Hoping to see your impressions on the new SVS;s new Ultra 13 VS the JL Audio Fathom f113 as well as the big dual 18" Elemental Designs VS the Definitive Trinity sub. :)

Craig,

Hoping to see your impressions on the new SVS;s new Ultra 13 VS the JL Audio Fathom f113 as well as the big dual 18" Elemental Designs VS the Definitive Trinity sub. :)

I wish you guys could see my wife when I explain why I need to being the A7-900 into the house to finish testing. This beasts delivers 112 dB Groundplane @ 20 Hz. She shakes her head, and walks away muttering ... it is hilarious.

The scores for it and the ultra will be done this weekend.

I wish you guys could see my wife when I explain why I need to being the A7-900 into the house to finish testing. This beasts delivers 112 dB Groundplane @ 20 Hz. She shakes her head, and walks away muttering ... it is hilarious.

The scores for it and the ultra will be done this weekend.

Sounds about right....the wife thing.

Impressive groundplane measurement ;)

I wish you guys could see my wife when I explain why I need to being the A7-900 into the house to finish testing. This beasts delivers 112 dB Groundplane @ 20 Hz. She shakes her head, and walks away muttering ... it is hilarious.

The scores for it and the ultra will be done this weekend.

Hey Craig. I don't want to sound stupid but what exactly does 112db @20 hz Groundplane mean?

I'm dying for the "pods emerging" graph for the PB-13! :D

Hey Craig. I don't want to sound stupid but what exactly does 112db @20 hz Groundplane mean?

It means that a subwoofer the size of a refrigerator can put out a lot of bass.

It means that a subwoofer the size of a refrigerator can put out a lot of bass.

Yeah. Just got done talking to Alex at eD and he expalined it to me. And you are correct, it basically is pumping out some serious spls.

Hey Craig. I don't want to sound stupid but what exactly does 112db @20 hz Groundplane mean?

It means that in a small room it can blow your head clean off. :eek:

It means that in a small room it can blow your head clean off. :eek:

I am going to look at the weather report for next Saturday. If we have the right forecast, I may do something wild to show off how capable the eD monster is: An outdoor movie Saturday night.

How much does that thing cost my god and where to get it haha.. That's impressive, Craig is this the best you have seen in that range for DB on ground plane?

craigsub,

check your PMs...

Hey Craig. I don't want to sound stupid but what exactly does 112db @20 hz Groundplane mean?

Here you go:


This test environment is often referred to as ground plane, 2 pi, or half space. An anechoic chamber (or suspended in free air) would be considered a 4 pi or full space environment. Compared to full space, the ground plane adds 6 dB to the test results, but otherwise does not affect the frequency response. So testing a subwoofer at 2 meters ground plane is equivalent (in both output and frequency response) to testing it at 1 meter in an anechoic chamber.
Source: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_2/atlantic-technology-642e-sb-subwoofer-5-2005.html

What he said means that at a given distance in an everyday listening (non-anechoic) environment, the subwoofer is capable of 112dB of output at a frequency of 20hz, or roughly equivalent (SPL-wise) to using a sandblaster, riding on an inboard motorboat, or being in the drivers seat of a snowmobile.

Soundsgood ... You will learn pretty quickly that small and DIY (assuming you want REALLY good performance) are tough to fit in the same sentence ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2040.jpg

Craig, a couple questions on your diy dual SDX 15s? Why did you choose stacked drivers vs. opposing as in a push push? And what were the final dimensions? ...edit...I just found the dimensions in another thread...So by the looks of it, it's going to be firing downward towards the floor? Better fr compared to front firing? You mentioned it's as musical as the F113 and the graphs are very similar, exc. the F113's a bit flatter fr. Quite impressive.:D

This beasts delivers 112 dB Groundplane @ 20 Hz. She shakes her head, and walks away muttering ... it is hilarious.

The scores for it and the ultra will be done this weekend.
So did you measure that or? :confused:

...I just found the dimensions in another thread...So by the looks of it, it's going to be firing downward towards the floor? Better fr compared to front firing? You mentioned it's as musical as the F113 and the graphs are very similar, exc. the F113's a bit flatter fr. Quite impressive.:D

Other thread? where? .....link please.

are you enjoying your new sms-1 ?
Ya know, we're leaving for DisneyWorld tomorrow, so I've been taking care of some other stuff today.

I did manage to do an auto-EQ thingy... but I haven't really had a chance to see how it affected sound quality. It'll have to wait till next week, when we're back from D-World.

The Ultra is definitely a lot more like a Fathom, deep, visceral bass that one feels.


Craig...what is the lowest priced sub that you have reviewed that will give this visceral bass?

Other thread? where? .....link please.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=874265

I mean turning up the regular receiver volume, but during the day of course.:D


I Just did another test on my A3-300 and I turned the volume to -10 db. It did not even flinch at the cresendo moment in the end of the scene with the guys face intertwining with the girls. It was very loud and deep and solid with absolutely no puffing.....I would go louder but I am in a condo and the volume was making me scared. I just got an email from ED and they are offering there upgraded driving for a limited time in the A3-300.......I am kinda pissed about this because I ordered mine 2 weeks ago.....anyway, I am really liking this subwoofer. Like I said, I am not a pro tester like Craig so gtake it for what it is worth.....I also have mine corner placed and I have read that ported subs tend to huff when placed in corners.....I havent heard anything at all.:)

So did you measure that or? :confused:

Yes ... last weekend. It may have been the last time the weekend weather is dry enough to do a GP session.

Of course, if 2 healthy 18 inch drivers in a box this size DON'T deliver that level of SPL, it would be a surprise ... it is only 5 dB higher than a single Ultra did in the AV Talk Tests.

I Just did another test on my A3-300 and I turned the volume to -10 db. It did not even flinch at the cresendo moment in the end of the scene with the guys face intertwining with the girls. It was very loud and deep and solid with absolutely no puffing.....I would go louder but I am in a condo and the volume was making me scared. I just got an email from ED and they are offering there upgraded driving for a limited time in the A3-300.......I am kinda pissed about this because I ordered mine 2 weeks ago.....anyway, I am really liking this subwoofer. Like I said, I am not a pro tester like Craig so gtake it for what it is worth.....I also have mine corner placed and I have read that ported subs tend to huff when placed in corners.....I havent heard anything at all.:)

Very cool stuff, deez, but what's this "pro tester" stuff ? You don't think anyone is dumb enough to PAY me for this, do you ? :eek::D

From what you are posting, you love your new sub. That's what matters. :)

Craig, a couple questions on your diy dual SDX 15s? Why did you choose stacked drivers vs. opposing as in a push push? And what were the final dimensions? ...edit...I just found the dimensions in another thread...So by the looks of it, it's going to be firing downward towards the floor? Better fr compared to front firing? You mentioned it's as musical as the F113 and the graphs are very similar, exc. the F113's a bit flatter fr. Quite impressive.:D

It is forward firing, and I cannot give you any "uppity subwoofer guy" reason for going with the 2 drivers facing forward other than talking to the eD guys, and liking how this looked.

It's a great sub ... my wife is not too thrilled with the looks of it, but it's too big for her to move ... :D

I ask because my B.A. XB6 sounds like it is going to blow with anything real low. No solidity to the low bass. At least not like my 2-15" JL subs I had for years in my old car.
Maybe my expectations for my price range are unatainable.

[QUOTE=craigsub;11594082]It is forward firing, and I cannot give you any "uppity subwoofer guy" reason for going with the 2 drivers facing forward other than talking to the eD guys, and liking how this looked.

here is how I places my 7-900 in my room , guys i'm not a expert in subwoofer , but i must said this the 7-900 is a beast the other day I walk three house from my house, I live in a sencod floor house , I can heard the bass from three house from my house , also i notice the 7-900 sound much better in my room with the woofer firing forward dan firing down like the said. graigsub here are my picture and if u have time can u tell us the different in ur test with the 7-900 firing foward and firing down, I ask the question because in my room firing foward , three people with did A/B comparation and everybody say the samething that the woofer sound much better firing foward dan down......!!

I had the same experience with a PB12-Plus/2 from SVS.

This weekend, I will be doing some critical listening to the A7-900, and will try it standing up.

What is likely occuring is you are getting bass with less interference in the upper ranges. 40-80 Hz is very audible bass, and having less interaction with room boundaries is probably why you prefer it standing up.

You and your friends have good ears. That system looks GREAT. To give everyone an idea of the size of your sub, how big is that Television ? :)

Hey Craig. I don't want to sound stupid but what exactly does 112db @20 hz Groundplane mean?

I aint Craig but this about says over 120dB @ 20Hz in most rooms,as you have room gain plus you can place near relive surfaces to boost output.This good for a $2000 commercial sub it is pretty darn impressive.

Now 25Hz and up range I bet you can expect upwards of 124dB ...liver shakig N baking SPL.

I Just did another test on my A3-300 and I turned the volume to -10 db. It did not even flinch at the cresendo moment in the end of the scene with the guys face intertwining with the girls. It was very loud and deep and solid with absolutely no puffing.....I would go louder but I am in a condo and the volume was making me scared. I just got an email from ED and they are offering there upgraded driving for a limited time in the A3-300.......I am kinda pissed about this because I ordered mine 2 weeks ago.....anyway, I am really liking this subwoofer. Like I said, I am not a pro tester like Craig so gtake it for what it is worth.....I also have mine corner placed and I have read that ported subs tend to huff when placed in corners.....I havent heard anything at all.:)

I also have the A3-300, it showed up about a week ago. What's this upgraded driving(driver I'm assuming) you're referring to that ed is offering? I received no such email about this. I'm enjoying this sub by the way.

Structurally, you guys sure standing the A7-900 on one end will not weaken the joints?

[QUOTE=zaito;11594670]

I had the same experience with a PB12-Plus/2 from SVS.

This weekend, I will be doing some critical listening to the A7-900, and will try it standing up.

What is likely occuring is you are getting bass with less interference in the upper ranges. 40-80 Hz is very audible bass, and having less interaction with room boundaries is probably why you prefer it standing up.

You and your friends have good ears. That system looks GREAT. To give everyone an idea of the size of your sub, how big is that Television ? :)



I did the same with my SVS's and had great results as well . here is a pic of that set up .

Structurally, you guys sure standing the A7-900 on one end will not weaken the joints?

If anything, by making the load bearing horizontal to the floor a much smaller footprint, structural integrity will increase.

I am going to look at the weather report for next Saturday. If we have the right forecast, I may do something wild to show off how capable the eD monster is: An outdoor movie Saturday night.

What time Saturday night?.... Perhaps we'll hear it down here in the Pittsburgh area...

If anything, by making the load bearing horizontal to the floor a much smaller footprint, structural integrity will increase.

Wouldn't that only apply if all the weight was located at the mounting surface? With the bulk of the driver's weight at the magnet, still seems that there would be a lot of stress on the box.

Then again, it may not matter. :)

I did the same with my SVS's and had great results as well . here is a pic of that set up .


nice stack :D:D

question,i have thx cert. rec.,i used spl meter and test tones to adjust speakers,slow setting, c weight.what about sub? at 75 db with meter it seems kinda low. i know meter doesnt pick up low freq. as well, but what would be the adjustment? ive read the graphs, and spec.sheets, but still confused can some one help me out with quick answer?

The quickest adjustment is to turn the sub up a few db's. Just be sure to check the level with your SPL meter so that you're not turning it up way too much.

It's quite common for people to run their sub a few db's louder than their other speakers.


Tim

[QUOTE=craigsub;11594082]It is forward firing, and I cannot give you any "uppity subwoofer guy" reason for going with the 2 drivers facing forward other than talking to the eD guys, and liking how this looked.

here is how I places my 7-900 in my room , guys i'm not a expert in subwoofer , but i must said this the 7-900 is a beast the other day I walk three house from my house, I live in a sencod floor house , I can heard the bass from three house from my house , also i notice the 7-900 sound much better in my room with the woofer firing forward dan firing down like the said. graigsub here are my picture and if u have time can u tell us the different in ur test with the 7-900 firing foward and firing down, I ask the question because in my room firing foward , three people with did A/B comparation and everybody say the samething that the woofer sound much better firing foward dan down......!!
Lots of WAF there! :p

I thought subs run 115db max so you calibrate them to 85, instead of 75db and 105db max..

I thought subs run 115db max so you calibrate them to 85, instead of 75db and 105db max..

Most of the subwoofer test signals account for the difference needed such that your meter should read the same/similar for the subwoofer and the mains. Of course people need to remember that without knowingat the frequency response of the system, noise tests with an SPL meter are only a blind stab in the right direction. There's plenty of well justified room for adjustment.

Craig, if you were to make an educated guess, where would you put the PB13U on the list? Just a guess, nothing in stone.

Craig, if you were to make an educated guess, where would you put the PB13U on the list? Just a guess, nothing in stone.

We are doing a listening session Saturday ... a LONG one. Look for the Ultra and Elemental Designs A7-900 to be finished on Sunday.

How about the Epik Subs? When will they be tested? trying to make a decision between Epik and SVS.

How about the Epik Subs? When will they be tested? trying to make a decision between Epik and SVS.

October's tests will likely include two subwoofers from Epik .. The $1200 Castle and the $2000 Conquest.

October's tests will likely include two subwoofers from Epik .. The $1200 Castle and the $2000 Conquest.

nice, what an amazing frame of reference you are providing

Hey Craig, I've been MIA for a while but was wondering if you ever got your hands on the Submersive (sp?)?

Hey Craig, I've been MIA for a while but was wondering if you ever got your hands on the Submersive (sp?)?

Not yet. Likely some time in the future. Besides, it fills a different niche than the refridgerator size subs that are all the rage this month. :rolleyes:

Most of the subwoofer test signals account for the difference needed such that your meter should read the same/similar for the subwoofer and the mains. Of course people need to remember that without knowingat the frequency response of the system, noise tests with an SPL meter are only a blind stab in the right direction. There's plenty of well justified room for adjustment.


Is this what one calls house curve?

Is this what one calls house curve?

i'm not 100% sure but i think he meant that your frequency response at the listening position should be 100% razor flat at every single frequency for the SPL meter to have any real accuracy. if i'm wrong on that, please correct :)

Is this what one calls house curve?

What I've seen coloquially referred to as a house curve on the forums would be a subset of what I'm referring to. My point was that using a pink noise source of some bandwidth to set level will be highly affected by the frequency response of the system. The levels that might give equal readings on a meter for main speakers and subwoofer could easily result in responses that differ by +/-6dB. It all depends on where the peaks and dips fall and how large and wide they are.

Sorry for the threadjack Craig. ...Now back to your regularly scheduled program. ;)

Not yet. Likely some time in the future. Besides, it fills a different niche than the refridgerator size subs that are all the rage this month. :rolleyes:
How much smaller is the Submersive than the PB13U?

Hello - I have spent some time reading this thread as I have been told the BIC H-100 is a very good sub for the money. I couldn't find any printout of its frequency response, but it seems that the below 25hz is pretty much missing. The eD A2-300 printout showed very good response at 18hz.
Of course, the A2-300 is $100-$150 more.

Are there any people here who have heard both?

Is the BIC H-100 a "musical" sub?

My HT is a basement with carpet covered concrete floor with the main area about 11X11 and behind that an equipment and stairs area 11X9 tapering down to 4X9. The ceiling is 7'.

Thanks for any help/thoughts.

How much smaller is the Submersive than the PB13U?

I was more so referring to the monsters like the A7-900, the Conquest and Craig's own dual 15" DIY box.

In comparison to the PB13-Ultra, the SubMersive is ~3.5" taller, 3" narrower, 4" shallower and about 35 lbs. lighter. A little taller, smaller footprint, very different strengths between them.

How much smaller is the Submersive than the PB13U?

SubMersive Cabinet dimensions: 24.25" D W x 17.5" x 25.5" H
110-120lbs
SVS
Approx. 27” D x 20.5 " W x 22" H (w/o grill) 155lbs
If I am not mistaken

I was more so referring to the monsters like the A7-900, the Conquest and Craig's own dual 15" DIY box.

In comparison to the PB13-Ultra, the SubMersive is ~3.5" taller, 3" narrower, 4" shallower and about 35 lbs. lighter. A little taller, smaller footprint, very different strengths between them.
Thanks for the clarification.

Hello - I have spent some time reading this thread as I have been told the BIC H-100 is a very good sub for the money. I couldn't find any printout of its frequency response, but it seems that the below 25hz is pretty much missing. The eD A2-300 printout showed very good response at 18hz.
Of course, the A2-300 is $100-$150 more.

Are there any people here who have heard both?

Craig has...scores for both music and HT are on a previous page...

Elemental Designs A2-300: 83 points (44-39)
BIC H-100: 78 points (40-38)
(HT and Music)

Is the BIC H-100 a "musical" sub?

For budget sub yes...though the gap of 5 points is pretty significant in output and extention...the eD sub is another level of performance.

I was more so referring to the monsters like the A7-900, the Conquest and Craig's own dual 15" DIY box.

In comparison to the PB13-Ultra, the SubMersive is ~3.5" taller, 3" narrower, 4" shallower and about 35 lbs. lighter. A little taller, smaller footprint, very different strengths between them.


....and the different strengths are?

....and the different strengths are?

After reading Mark's post, I had a premonition this question was in the works!! :)

Ahh good because I have intention to buy a Dolby LAKE and a QSC DSP-30 in the future. I'll make sure the over all response will be flat. I trust Art's and Mark's decision on those units, I know Art wouldn't go cheap so I'll just follow his lead. My current Pioneer Elite 84TXSI handles the simple stuff with MCAAC.

I broke down an bought another DB Meter since mine is one loan. I just need to do simple tests SVS ask me to do to make sure the amp needs to be changed in the one unit.

I probably never will be a sound expert. I'll source that out to people in the know the Chris Collins, Mark Seatons, and Ken Whitcombs of the world. I'll just drop the amount of cash needed. It's fun to learn but and the end of the day I would like to not worry about it.

Mark how is your infra sound design going?

.

I broke down an bought another DB Meter since mine is one loan. I just need to do simple tests SVS ask me to do to make sure the amp needs to be changed in the one unit.

Don, are you having an amp issue too?

No a phase issue I need to confirm the amp is not hooked up backwards. When I flip the phase 180 they seem to be close to okay. But I've been told the phase pot will not adjust the phase across the full voltage. So I need to colocate them the calibrate and test the pair to see if I get the 6 + DB. ED gave me the procedure I'm going to do it tonight.

I had to pick up a Digital Ratshack DB meter I hope it's not too much off the analog I had.

....and the different strengths are?

Those differences in strengths are probably best discussed in a more topical thread, like one on my own forum or in the thread here on the SubMersive. ;)

I agree with Mark, believe me there are benefits his designs are amazing I've heard several of them in fact four at once. It's down right scary, a regular visitor to Arts left the room the first time he heard them. To say it's intense is an understatement, there is no such thing as too much bass but this is pretty close :).

No such thing as too much bass...you never faced an army of subs capable of generating SPL high enough.


I can honestly say in my smaller room dual f113,one f112,one HGS18,dual TC Sounds subs and three Klipsch RSW subs can produce opressive SPL to a point of feeling sick.

Massive massive over the top output,to replicate what I have in room most of you have you would need two dozens of Submersives or Fathom subs. :p Sicko freakish efortless monster bass.

No such thing as too much bass...you never faced an army of subs capable of generating SPL high enough.


I can honestly say in my smaller room dual f113,one f112,one HGS18,dual TC Sounds subs and three Klipsch RSW subs can produce opressive SPL to a point of feeling sick.

Massive massive over the top output,to replicate what I have in room most of you have you would need two dozens of Submersives or Fathom subs. :p Sicko freakish efortless monster bass.

that's beautiful, you should make that whole post your sig

but use spell-check first :p

that's beautiful, you should make that whole post your sig

but use spell-check first :p


Spill check ,what is this ? :p

Oh I know that feeling, and the subs in Arts room are not even turned up thats the scary thing. He almost needs a license for that much bass it's practical a weapon. That is the first time I have even been in a room with so much bass for after 2 days after my head hurt. I used to compete in the 1000+ class of car audio competitions, one time I popped a rear windshield out of a 94 Z28. You could not even drink in that car it would come back up. Sure that was a much smaller environment but it was that kind of feeling in a room that's 19.5 x 27'

You have to respect and love that kind of power, raw unadulterated power... No matter the sub, or sub array that creates it wow, it's hard to wipe the smile off your face. Because it's freak'in plastered there by the waves of bass..

hehe oh I can't wait for to get two more of these PB13Us, after much reach five really does not add much..

I used to compete in the 1000+ class of car audio competitions, one time I popped a rear windshield out of a 94 Z28.

What kind of numbers did you used to do? I am gonna guess it was on the audio control 180 mic.


BTW times have changed big time.

Take a guess which vehicle is louder with the mic in the same place. (passenger side on the windshield.

http://www.termpro.com/dbdrag/magazine/9704/proud1.html

4-15" strokers
8-linear power amps
16 Group 31 batteries.



or this one 2-10" DD 99z and 2 4000 watt amps and 1 battery under 800 cubic inches (group 31). Everything inside and outside the vehicle stock, stock dash,panels etc etc

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/subingncali/73b54803.jpg

I would say the dual tens it comes down to design. Oh yeah your right I know times have change. I'm pretty sure it was that audio 180 mic or SPL-180 mic, I'll see if I can dig up my old print outs. Seems so long ago I last competed around the end of 1993- early 1994. Oh if I only had all that money back... Stuff has really come down in price there will always be high end but what you can get now.. I used to laugh at people with Zeus amps what was it Hi-Fonics. I was more of a Precision Power and Rockford guy for a while.

Off top of my head it was around 150-153 DB. I had several systems 10s,12s, 15s, and even two 18s god nice but too much space..

What is the record now I look on google could not find it. Last I saw I think it was 180.5?

I would say the dual tens it comes down to design. Oh yeah your right I know times have change. I'm pretty sure it was that audio 180 mic, I'll see if I can dig up my old print outs. Seems so long ago I last competed around the end of 1993- early 1994. Oh if I only had all that money back...

It is all about design.. I have seen the same car using very similar box's but if something is only off 2 inches the number is off a couple of dbs.

The 2-10s are about 4 dbs louder.

I sometimes wish I could get all my money back and not have spent it but man those are fun times.

Yeah I'll be 33 on the 23rd of this month oh how the years go bye. To be young and crazy :) Can't wait to see what stupid things our first child does, but he's only 6 weeks yesterday haha... not just yet but soon he will do crazy stuff...

Originally Posted by Don_Kellogg

I used to compete in the 1000+ class of car audio competitions, one time I popped a rear windshield out of a 94 Z28.

I would say the dual tens it comes down to design. Oh yeah your right I know times have change. I'm pretty sure it was that audio 180 mic or SPL-180 mic, I'll see if I can dig up my old print outs. Seems so long ago I last competed around the end of 1993- early 1994. Oh if I only had all that money back... Stuff has really come down in price there will always be high end but what you can get now.. I used to laugh at people with Zeus amps what was it Hi-Fonics. I was more of a Precision Power and Rockford guy for a while.

Off top of my head it was around 150-153 DB. I had several systems 10s,12s, 15s, and even two 18s god nice but too much space..

What is the record now I look on google could not find it. Last I saw I think it was 180.5?[/:eek:



When I left the car audio business the USAC record was 169db. but that was a few years ago. The interior of these cars are literally enclosures stuffed with amps and speakers. There's barely room for the driver. I've never seen anyone blow out a windshield but I have seen them crack and their windows blow out. You competition guys are all crazy! :rolleyes: (But you did help me make a lot of money! ;) )

Ian :D

Here is the guy who hit 180.5 with one driver (and 26,000 watts).

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/551

Originally Posted by Don_Kellogg



:eek:



When I left the car audio business the USAC record was 169db. but that was a few years ago. The interior of these cars are literally enclosures stuffed with amps and speakers. There's barely room for the driver. I've never seen anyone blow out a windshield but I have seen them crack and their windows blow out. You competition guys are all crazy! :rolleyes: (But you did help me make a lot of money! ;) )

Ian :D

If that was on the old audio control then the 2 tens I posted are already really close to that record and their is some people out their doing that number already with 2-15" subs below the window line everything stock inside and 2 group 31 batterys and 4 or 8 amps not sure what they are using they are always changing stuff out.


Trust me these kind of numbers people are doing now, they put a ton of hard work into their rides, When I used to compete I would build 2-3 box's a week and test about 10 hours a week. I took a break this year Most likely be back in the lanes next year :)

Here is the guy who hit 180.5 with one driver (and 26,000 watts).

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/551

You should see the mess he gets himself into over on the termpro audio forum. He was always posting that he could do a 180 with 1 sub but very few believed him and bashed him for that.

You should see the mess he gets himself into over on the termpro audio forum. He was always posting that he could do a 180 with 1 sub but very few believed him and bashed him for that.

Based on measuring @ 1 meter outdoors, if 180 dB was possible from this driver, it would have to do the following:

170 dB @ 2600 Watts
160 dB @ 260 Watts
150 dB @ 26 Watts
140 dB @ 2.6 Watts
130 dB @ 0.26 Watt

Roughy speaking, we are looking at a driver with 136 dB sensitivity @ 1 watt while staying uncompressed at 26,000 watts.

Whay would such a reasonable claim be bashed ? :D

Based on measuring @ 1 meter outdoors, if 180 dB was possible from this driver, it would have to do the following:

170 dB @ 2600 Watts
160 dB @ 260 Watts
150 dB @ 26 Watts
140 dB @ 2.6 Watts
130 dB @ 0.26 Watt

Roughy speaking, we are looking at a driver with 136 dB sensitivity @ 1 watt while staying uncompressed at 26,000 watts.

Ummm... he achieved that in a concrete filled car. I'm not sure how you interpreted that to mean 1 meter outdoors. :confused:

Based on measuring @ 1 meter outdoors, if 180 dB was possible from this driver, it would have to do the following:

170 dB @ 2600 Watts
160 dB @ 260 Watts
150 dB @ 26 Watts
140 dB @ 2.6 Watts
130 dB @ 0.26 Watt

Roughy speaking, we are looking at a driver with 136 dB sensitivity @ 1 watt while staying uncompressed at 26,000 watts.

Whay would such a reasonable claim be bashed ? :D

Wait and on those meters it averages your loudest 5 frequencies so he could be still louder then that on say a radio shack meter if it metered to 190.

he used to do 178-79 all day long but he was always saying that he could do 180+ with the right climate and etc etc

Either way he did the score and remember inside the cabin two regular size adults can fit so its not like its 1 cubic foot he is pressurizing.

It isnt easy getting a world record at all

It took me and my friend hundreds of hours of testing between us both to break a record in his class "iasca stock 3 in 2005" we had 4-dd9512s and 4 2000 watt amps and 2 group 31 batterys in a stock interior exteriour crx did a 157.3 on the ac 190

We are thinking of bringing out the rex next year again if not a new car :)

http://audioforum.termpro.com/topic/30/499.html#000000

hahaha...yes...in a car, filled with concrete...very different :)

Here is the guy who hit 180.5 with one driver (and 26,000 watts).

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/551

:eek: Not only will that blow out windows, it'll blow out brains! :eek:

Ummm... he achieved that in a concrete filled car. I'm not sure how you interpreted that to mean 1 meter outdoors. :confused:

I just took the numbers and ran them .... Let us use a concrete filled car, no problem.

So ... with room gain, let's say he is getting 20 dB of room gain ... he still needs to get 116 dB @ 1 watt and no compression 26,000 watts later.

That's one heck of a woofer.

So ... with room gain, let's say he is getting 20 dB of room gain

You're just guessing here, as I would be. He could certainly be getting more than 20 dB of gain at specific frequencies.

Specific frequencies and specific point on the dash in the vehicle.

My car will meter on a TL at almost a 160 in my hatch, but a 142 at the dash :)

I just took the numbers and ran them .... Let us use a concrete filled car, no problem.

So ... with room gain, let's say he is getting 20 dB of room gain ... he still needs to get 116 dB @ 1 watt and no compression 26,000 watts later.

That's one heck of a woofer.


Yup! And with a 12 volt system. Now that's what I call Xtreme! ;)


Ian :D

Not impossible when you consider that SPL systems are tightly tuned resonators designed to play one frequency (usually a fairly high one)... they're more akin to whistles than subwoofer systems.

Still, 180 dB is quite a barrier to break... I remember when 150 was first breached, and 160, and 170dB... each time people thought limits were being reached.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

You're just guessing here, as I would be. He could certainly be getting more than 20 dB of gain at specific frequencies.

180 dB is 1 million acoustic watts/meter squared.

From a single driver, with 26,000 watts of electrical power going into it.

You are right, I am just guessing that this is not a reasonable nor accurate test.

But, hey, that's just me.

Oh I know that feeling, and the subs in Arts room are not even turned up thats the scary thing. He almost needs a license for that much bass it's practical a weapon. That is the first time I have even been in a room with so much bass for after 2 days after my head hurt. I used to compete in the 1000+ class of car audio competitions, one time I popped a rear windshield out of a 94 Z28. You could not even drink in that car it would come back up. Sure that was a much smaller environment but it was that kind of feeling in a room that's 19.5 x 27'



You have to respect and love that kind of power, raw unadulterated power... No matter the sub, or sub array that creates it wow, it's hard to wipe the smile off your face. Because it's freak'in plastered there by the waves of bass..

hehe oh I can't wait for to get two more of these PB13Us, after much reach five really does not add much..


u must be a bass addicted maniac lol

180 dB is 1 million acoustic watts/meter squared.

From a single driver, with 26,000 watts of electrical power going into it.

You are right, I am just guessing that this is not a reasonable nor accurate test.

But, hey, that's just me.
I think it would be better to stop now. For your own good.

Yeah,I can see Craig trying to explain the concrete fill car in the garage to his wife.

Originally Posted by Don_Kellogg



:eek:



When I left the car audio business the USAC record was 169db. but that was a few years ago. The interior of these cars are literally enclosures stuffed with amps and speakers. There's barely room for the driver. I've never seen anyone blow out a windshield but I have seen them crack and their windows blow out. You competition guys are all crazy! :rolleyes: (But you did help me make a lot of money! ;) )

Ian :D

Thats what I meant I didn't mean it flew across the parking lot haha Now that would have been the $ hit... I'm looking for my print outs that was a long time again that is about what I remember as the DB range. I won several competitions and yes there was little room in the car for the drive when show ready. It was probably some where in the 140+ range but you know the older you get the better you were :-) if I can find them I'll post them.

u must be a bass addicted maniac lol

Yep used to be and still am? This time it's in theater not a car ;) haha After reading how this Sport? has progressed my gawd. Yeah I feel old I could not hang with the kids these days. To think how far it has come, Wonder what the home theater DB record is..

I've gotten to laxed in my older age, I really need to DIY something once i have everything the way I want it in the Cinema Kellogg...

Sorry for jacking your thread it was not intentional.

So those about those PB13U graphs :)

A concrete filled car...it is no longer a car,just looks like one on the outside.These SPL machines are often not even cars you could drive,the whole interior reinforced,made smaller to raise the pressure and readings(as high pressure equals high SPL...doh).

The mic is probably at less than half a meter away,the pressure in the tiny "measuring space" so high even from a single half competent 12" woofer can get you over 135dB readings all day long(for as long as the VC holds...:p )

180 dB is 1 million acoustic watts/meter squared.
From a single driver, with 26,000 watts of electrical power going into it.
You are right, I am just guessing that this is not a reasonable nor accurate test.
But, hey, that's just me.

Man.. what crawled in your pants and died? You know... it's ok to be wrong.

A concrete filled car...it is no longer a car,just looks like one on the outside.These SPL machines are often not even cars you could drive,the whole interior reinforced,made smaller to raise the pressure and readings(as high pressure equals high SPL...doh).

The mic is probably at less than half a meter away,the pressure in the tiny "measuring space" so high even from a single half competent 12" woofer can get you over 135dB readings all day long(for as long as the VC holds...:p )

Reading comprehension>you :p

I said in an earlier post that his car fits two regular size adults. and the meter is probably around 5-6 feet from the sub. now the port is closer to 2-3 feet from the mic Since its a bandpass system.

Here is a pix of my friends chad's old extreme car, a bandpass setup wouldnt work in his car cause it was to small. He got it to 162 db on the termlab running sony subs and amp.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/subingncali/100_0980.jpg

Man.. what crawled in your pants and died? You know... it's ok to be wrong.

At what point did you think something crawled in my pants and died ? A guy claims to get 180+ dB from a single driver, which is 1 million acoustic watts/meter squared.

That is a pretty incredible claim from a single driver which has 26,000 watts of electrical power going into it, measured about 5-6 feet from the driver.

I merely question his claim, that is all.

However, if you, or anyone else can demonstrate how this happened, please do. I would love to know how this occured. :)

I think it would be better to stop now. For your own good.

Oh good. Another cryptic message. If you think it is "wrong" to wonder how this was achieved from a single driver, cool.

Oh good. Another cryptic message. If you think it is "wrong" to wonder how this was achieved from a single driver, cool.

With lots and lots and lots of testing and experimentation.

Did I mention lots of testing :)

And of course an awesome sub ($5000++ retail for the DD 9918z)

With lots and lots and lots of testing and experimentation.

Did I mention lots of testing :)

And of course an awesome sub ($5000++ retail for the DD 9918z)

Is there a site with the specs on this driver ? Another guess (apparently Richard and Lindahl missed where I called it a guess) is that these SPL numbers are not frequency dependent ?

Heres another extreme car pix using 3-DD99s
(small pix I cant find the bigger one right now )
This one is in the 175db range.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/subingncali/757817de.jpg

Is there a site with the specs on this driver ? Another guess (apparently Richard and Lindahl missed where I called it a guess) is that these SPL numbers are not frequency dependent ?

http://www.ddaudio.com/dd/caraudio/woofers.asp?series=z

Thats the DD website but they don't list specs.

Unless if you count this

sensitive---"emo"

Can't wait to see what stupid things our first child does, but he's only 6 weeks yesterday haha... not just yet but soon he will do crazy stuff...

That would be grabbing his genitals while you're trying to change his poopy diapers. I speak from experience, my 6 month old daughter has discovered this trick and it makes changing the diaper even more exciting than usual. :eek:

http://www.ddaudio.com/dd/caraudio/woofers.asp?series=z

Thats the DD website but they don't list specs.

Unless if you count this

sensitive---"emo"

If nothing else, they do have a sense of humor. :D

besides a sense of humor, it sounds like they have the loudest sub on earth, and one of the loudest noise making devices ever made.

i doubt it does much besides go "boom" though.

I am off to measure how well my dual 15 inch Creative Sounds SDX-15 subwoofer handles the Machines emerge on WOTW.

Look for a graph later ... and no concrete. :)

Craigsub, you have alot of work ahead of you. Get started on the Epik products so I can choose a Sub.:D

Here is the revised graph of the WOTW Pods emerge scene on the dual Driver SDX-15 ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SDX15WOTW3.jpg

For comparison, here is the same scene on the Fathom 113:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/WOTWJL.jpg

Why there is 10-15 dB up/down swings on the dual SDX15 graph above 40 Hz?

http://www.nsplcompetition.com/index-4.cfm

Here are some world records so Iggster is missing something.

Why there is 10-15 dB up/down swings on the dual SDX15 graph above 40 Hz?

If one runs the scene longer, there is more of the upper bass stuff occuring.

Here it is again ... longer scene.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SDX15WOTW4.jpg

If one runs the scene longer, there is more of the upper bass stuff occuring.


Ok. But why the f113 graph is much flatter? Is that also a longer scene? Are they comparable then?

Just trying to figure out what kind of info those graphs give us...?

However, if you, or anyone else can demonstrate how this happened, please do. I would love to know how this occured. :)

it was designed by bob carver :D

Ok. But why the f113 graph is much flatter? Is that also a longer scene? Are they comparable then?

Just trying to figure out what kind of info those graphs give us...?

It shows what each subwoofer can do with real material in a real room. When I run these graphs, each subwoofer is in the same location. What you are seeing is max output for this Machines Emerge Scene.

What I am primarily looking for in this scene is bass between 15 and 40 Hz.

In ths Case of the SDX-15 pair, it managed appx. the following:
15 Hz - 87 dB
20 Hz - 97 dB
25 Hz - 105 dB and delivering that level the listening position from about 22 Hz and up.


Fathom 113
15 Hz - 88 dB
20 Hz - 98 dB
25 Hz - 98 dB and delivering that level from about 20 Hz and up.

It is pretty clear that the DIY sub could deliver more SPL below 20 Hz with some EQ. From about 22 Hz and up, the DIY walks away from the Fathom.

One reason this is a great test is that it shows a real world situation .... for example, to get maximum infra sonic bass from the SDX-15, you really need an eq that works in the 15-20 Hz area. Later this year, I will definitely look into the Rane for this purpose.

Without that EQ, if I try to get more SPL out of the unit, it will bottom on the scenes at 25 Hz ...

The Fathom has the advantage of having an amp-driver-eq optimized for each other.

These are not response curves, either. The "flatness" of the curve is not an indicator of performance.

Hope this helps make sense of these graphs ... :)

So why didn't you go with a ported cabinet on your dual SDX-15 sub? Wouldn't that (help) give you enough low end reinforcement to match the F113?

Bradley

So why didn't you go with a ported cabinet on your dual SDX-15 sub? Wouldn't that (help) give you enough low end reinforcement to match the F113?

Bradley

I have mentioned I may try a ported single driver SDX-15. The ideal box for duals is appx. 26 cubic feet of net internal space. That's a bit much. I also talked to Bob Reimer at length before going with the dual driver sealed's.

And you missed a pretty obvious question ... which subwoofer delivered a more powerful and visceral overall performance ? :)

http://www.nsplcompetition.com/index-4.cfm

Here are some world records so Iggster is missing something.

What do you mean? thats nspl and alan got it in dbdrag and me and rob got it in iasca and if you know iasca they rarely update records just like dbdrag :rolleyes: People always complain and no one listens :rolleyes: wayne is to busy counting his money :D:o

...snip...

And you missed a pretty obvious question ... which subwoofer delivered a more powerful and visceral overall performance ? :)


O.K., I'll bite, which one? and a followup question, which seemed more tuneful or more accurate?

O.K., I'll bite, which one? and a followup question, which seemed more tuneful or more accurate?

They are VERY close in the "tuneful, articulate and accurate" ... with the dual 15 incher, of course, taking the visceral honors.

Quite frankly, when one has bass of 105 dB from 22 Hz and up, the bass below 18 Hz is very hard to notice.

The Dual Driver SDX-15 package, for overall performance, scores a 105.

Considering we are talking $350 for an amp, $580 for 2 drivers, and really, $200 for a BFD and a Rad Shack ... the true DIYer can make one terrific bargain sub ... Even having it built should add no more than about $400 ...

For $1500, maybe $1600 total, this package kicks some serious butt.

How much power is each driver getting craig? the dual diy sub, and how much can each one take usually?

Imo if you are already driving them to the point they are bottoming out, They are not at all very impressive. 2 jl would be a better choice but they would cost an ish more. Maybe when audio pulse comes out with the new drivers you will test some craig :)

The Dual Driver SDX-15 package, for overall performance, scores a 105.

Considering we are talking $350 for an amp...
Sweet. And especially when considering you're only giving them ~400W each. Think how sweet it would be with something like Crown XTi-4000 or better. :)

It shows what each subwoofer can do with real material in a real room. When I run these graphs, each subwoofer is in the same location. What you are seeing is max output for this Machines Emerge Scene.

What I am primarily looking for in this scene is bass between 15 and 40 Hz.

In ths Case of the SDX-15 pair, it managed appx. the following:
15 Hz - 87 dB
20 Hz - 97 dB
25 Hz - 105 dB and delivering that level the listening position from about 22 Hz and up.


Fathom 113
15 Hz - 88 dB
20 Hz - 98 dB
25 Hz - 98 dB and delivering that level from about 20 Hz and up.

It is pretty clear that the DIY sub could deliver more SPL below 20 Hz with some EQ. From about 22 Hz and up, the DIY walks away from the Fathom.

One reason this is a great test is that it shows a real world situation .... for example, to get maximum infra sonic bass from the SDX-15, you really need an eq that works in the 15-20 Hz area. Later this year, I will definitely look into the Rane for this purpose.

Without that EQ, if I try to get more SPL out of the unit, it will bottom on the scenes at 25 Hz ...

The Fathom has the advantage of having an amp-driver-eq optimized for each other.

These are not response curves, either. The "flatness" of the curve is not an indicator of performance.

Hope this helps make sense of these graphs ... :)

hey craig, with regards to the SDX's

what if, instead of getting an EQ to bump up 15-20, what if you took that pro audio parametric EQ you have and turn everything from 25-80 down?

am i totally off the wall here?

hey craig, with regards to the SDX's

what if, instead of getting an EQ to bump up 15-20, what if you took that pro audio parametric EQ you have and turn everything from 25-80 down?

am i totally off the wall here?
Yes, that would work. Or then he could use a shelf filter to lift that sub 20 Hz up.

But I think he is already badly amp limited so any boost would only make it worse. He needs to get a better amp first. :)

hey craig, with regards to the SDX's

what if, instead of getting an EQ to bump up 15-20, what if you took that pro audio parametric EQ you have and turn everything from 25-80 down?

am i totally off the wall here?

It is worth exploring ... for sure.

Richard ... to answer your question, I think there is more performance to be had ... with a better amp, and an enclosure made from Batlic Birch, I think this unit would hit about 108 points ... a solid 25% improvement over the Fathom.

Yes, it is bigger .. and all that goes with size.

However, size and price are up to the individual, not me.

On a VERY light note ... "Man land", my detached 5 car garage, will house my Vette, Viper, wife's convertible, a Toshiba 65 inch TV, a full bar and kitchen, bathroom, and drink Fridge.

For sound, it will have my A7-900, the quad pack of SDX-15's, and the Klipsch Cornwalls.

Would someone let my family know I will miss them, but they can visit any time ? :D

Oh ... it is only about 80 feet from the main house.

Yes, that would work. Or then he could use a shelf filter to lift that sub 20 Hz up.

But I think he is already badly amp limited so any boost would only make it worse. He needs to get a better amp first. :)

is the sub that he is running, can it be ran at 4 ohms? if so why not just get a second ep 2500 :eek: Then it would be GAME over for the jl :D

is the sub that he is running, can it be ran at 4 ohms? if so why not just get a second ep 2500 :eek: Then it would be GAME over for the jl :D
Yes, they are DVC 2 ohm drivers. Another EP2500 would be the cheapest upgrade option for sure. :D

Richard - Have you heard anyone using this Crown amp ? Rated 1600 WPC into 2 Ohms ... link (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Crown-Xs1200-Power-Amplifier-?sku=481011)

Richard - Have you heard anyone using this Crown amp ? Rated 1600 WPC into 2 Ohms ... link (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Crown-Xs1200-Power-Amplifier-?sku=481011)
Yes I have. It is actually already discontinued but still very highly regarded. It has a switched-mode power supply so it's pretty light. Definitely a bargain at $599. One of those per each SDX should make them fly. :)

Craig were these measurements with the EP2500 or the Dayton amp? You mentioned the Dayton performing better the other day. However, it's known to have the low end highpass so that would definitly explain the weaker output at the extreme low end even with the shelf filter... ? ....

Craig, could you explain how the previous graphs can be compared with each other unless they all represented the different subs playing exactly the same stretch of material?

I have no doubt the Creative Sounds drivers can deliver another 10-15 % improvement with a better amp, I may reconfigure to a 4 ohm load and run the 2500 mono ... I already own it, and as much as I like buying more amps ... :D

I am still waiting for Bob Reimer to send me the trim piece for the 4th driver, too.

Craig, could you explain how the previous graphs can be compared with each other unless they all represented the different subs playing exactly the same stretch of material?

The smaller subs were played in our basement theater, which is a much easier room to drive.

I will see about posting results from the big subs in the big room, and the smaller subs in the smaller room this weekend.

The Ultra, Fathom, DD-18, DIY, and Def Tech were all measured in the larger room.

The VTF-3.3, PB12-NSD, A2-300, BIC H100, Onix X-Sub, Acculine A-sub ... were all measured in the smaller room.

I have no doubt the Creative Sounds drivers can deliver another 10-15 % improvement with a better amp, I may reconfigure to a 4 ohm load and run the 2500 mono ... I already own it, and as much as I like buying more amps ... :D

I am still waiting for Bob Reimer to send me the trim piece for the 4th driver, too.
Yes but then you would have to have another EP2500. You can't run two DVC 2 ohm drivers at 4 ohm load. It will be 0.5 ohms, 2 ohms, or 8 ohms.

As a matter of fact, you would get more power if you would wire each VC in series (2+2 and 2+2) and use both channels of the amp. That would be around 650W per driver.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/amp%20testing/EP2500/EP2500-4ohm-061007.jpg

Yes but then you would have to have another EP2500. You can't run two DVC 2 ohm drivers at 4 ohm load. It will be 0.5 ohms, 2 ohms, or 8 ohms.

If I have the math and memory about the drivers right, (Doing this while watching the Red Sox - Yankees is a bad idea), running the drivers in parallel, That Crown amp will send 800 watts to each driver .. vs. the 400 each is getting now.

Yes but then you would have to have another EP2500. You can't run two DVC 2 ohm drivers at 4 ohm load. It will be 0.5 ohms, 2 ohms, or 8 ohms.

As a matter of fact, you would get more power if you would wire each VC in series (2+2 and 2+2) and use both channels of the amp. That would be around 650W per driver.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/amp%20testing/EP2500/EP2500-4ohm-061007.jpg

Understood ... But I have 4 of the drivers, and 2 cabinets, each housing 2 drivers. I have had the 2500 for a year, and was hoping to find one amp to drive all 4 SDX-15's.

If I have the math and memory about the drivers right, (Doing this while watching the Red Sox - Yankees is a bad idea), running the drivers in parallel, That Crown amp will send 800 watts to each driver .. vs. the 400 each is getting now.
Yes, I didn't realize you were talking about the XS1200. 800W per each driver is right. Or 1100W if you wire voice coils in series and use both channels of the amp (preferable choice). So you would need two Crowns for your quad-SDX.

Power Output: 2-ohm Dual (per channel) 1,600W; 4-ohm Dual (per channel) 1,100W

Though simulation shows that each driver can take ~1500 watts before even hitting the 30mm Xmax. And they still have another 10mm before Xmech.

Understood ... But I have 4 of the drivers, and 2 cabinets, each housing 2 drivers. I have had the 2500 for a year, and was hoping to find one amp to drive all 4 SDX-15's.
Ok, I understand it. But unless that single amp is something like an I-tech 6000 or 8000, you will be seriously amp limited. You will need at least two XS1200's. One for each dual SDX15 subwoofer.

Ok, I understand it. But unless that single amp is something like an I-tech 8000, you will be seriously amp limited. You will need at least two XS1200's.

I am looking at the sims now ... I am not even CLOSE to maxing this beast. The 105 will be a provisional rating pending more stuff. Of course, a guy can build a 105 level sub for well under $2000.

I may have to grab 2 of those amps after next week's GTG. My brother is a Crown dealer, the least he can do is cut me a break. :D

Let's see what a few extra $$$$ can do.

Cool. I think once you get those Crowns and the EQ properly dialled in, you can up that 105 quite a bit. :cool: DIY is a wonderful thing. Especially with such nice drivers as the SDX15's are.

Cool. I think once you get those Crowns and the EQ properly dialled in, you can up that 105 quite a bit. :cool: DIY is a wonderful thing. Especially with such nice drivers as the SDX15's are.

For a reference, it is typical for 2 subs to add 4-6 points (20-30% improvement) over a single sub of the same model.

Tomorrow will be the wrap up of the Ultra, and possibly the A7-900, another sub which is amp limited. For $2000, this beast sure does deliver.

I have mentioned I may try a ported single driver SDX-15. The ideal box for duals is appx. 26 cubic feet of net internal space. That's a bit much.

Aww c'mon Craig, 26 ft^3 is a box thats only 3'x3'x3'. So now, after tossing around the A7-900, we're supposed to believe that you've become a big sub enclosure Maryboy?

I have mentioned I may try a ported single driver SDX-15. The ideal box for duals is appx. 26 cubic feet of net internal space. That's a bit much. I also talked to Bob Reimer at length before going with the dual driver sealed's.

And you missed a pretty obvious question ... which subwoofer delivered a more powerful and visceral overall performance ? :)

Oh, yeah... that very poignant detail was not lost on me. ;) I just thought instead of EQ, a ported design would deliver the goods handily. Either approach is valid if it achieves your goals within your design and budget constraints.

26, huh? Earlier today I was thinking considering a 20 cubic feet ported enclosure for a pair of SS RL-P15 drivers but now you've got me interested in the SDX-15s. I have a QSC RMX1850HD amp I can use which will deliver 600W into 4 ohms (per channel). Hopefully that would get the job done. :)

Bradley

Aww c'mon Craig, 26 ft^3 is a box thats only 3'x3'x3'. So now, after tossing around the A7-900, we're supposed to believe that you've become a big sub enclosure Maryboy?

That is 26 cubes NET. If you look at the A7-900, it is 19.5 cubes outside to get 10 cubes inside (thick walls, large drivers, big ports and extensive bracing take up a lot of real estate). Imagine what a beast this enclosure would have to be to get 26 net cubes.

A single SDX-15 in a 10 cubic foot box will deliver (tuned to 16 in the models, usually less in reality - about 15):

14 Hz - 103 dB
20 Hz - 106 dB
30 Hz - 107 dB ... and it remains pretty constant from 30 Hz and up.

This is for a single unit using your amp, so add 6 dB for duals, and you have a much better solution than putting together one huge box.

Easier to get a non-resonating box, less weight to move around, and if you have a problem, you still have one sub.

For a reference, the new PB-13 Ultra did the following in the AVTalk tests:

14 Hz: 101 dB
20 Hz: 107 dB
30 Hz: 110 dB ... an it also remains pretty constant from 30 Hz and up.

The PB-13 Ultra is $1499.

The SDX project is $280 + $300 (amp) + materials and labor.

As an aside - the Parts Express amp I just bought is perfect for a single driver SDX-15 project.

The scoring summary, with some hopefully helpful additions...

Here is the scoring summary with the Home Theater score and Music score, respectively shown as (HT-M).

Prices and whether the items are available Internet Direct or from a store are now included. Keep in mind that ID pricing will usually be firm, or slightly discounted, where some BM products will see substantial discounts. BM = Brick and Mortar. ID = Internet Direct. ID/SI = shipping included.

Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48) * see below
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 97 points (54-43)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Acculine A-sub ($289 ID/SI): 85 points (provisional, production to restart in November, 2007) (40-45)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)
Rocket Tyke: 60 points (If you care, PM me ... )

Pending subwoofers ...


Elemental Designs A7-900 ... In testing now
SVS PB13-Ultra ... In testing now
AV123 BMF ... Not sure of date
AV123 MFW-15 ... Not sure of date
Epik Castle and Conquest ... Not sure of date

Notes

*: The Creative Sounds project totalled $1230 for 2 drivers, Behirnger EP-2500 Amp, and EQ. In addition to the $1230, one can either build an enclosure, or have one built for appx. $400. I estimate that a more expensive and powerful amplifier will add 2-4 points to this design.
__________________

The scoring summary, with some hopefully helpful additions...

Here is the scoring summary with the Home Theater score and Music score, respectively shown as (HT-M).

Prices and whether the items are available Internet Direct or from a store are now included. Keep in mind that ID pricing will usually be firm, or slightly discounted, where some ID products will see substantial discounts. BM = Brick and Mortar. ID = Internet Direct. ID/SI = shipping included.



Thanks Craig! I think you may have meant that some BM products will see substantial discounts? You're killing me with the SVS PB13-Ultra.

The scoring summary, with some hopefully helpful additions...

Here is the scoring summary with the Home Theater score and Music score, respectively shown as (HT-M).

Prices and whether the items are available Internet Direct or from a store are now included. Keep in mind that ID pricing will usually be firm, or slightly discounted, where some ID products will see substantial discounts. BM = Brick and Mortar. ID = Internet Direct. ID/SI = shipping included.

Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48) * see below
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 97 points (54-43)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Acculine A-sub ($289 ID/SI): 85 points (provisional, production to restart in November, 2007) (40-45)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)
Rocket Tyke: 60 points (If you care, PM me ... )

Pending subwoofers ...


Elemental Designs A7-900 ... In testing now
SVS PB13-Ultra ... In testing now
AV123 BMF ... Not sure of date
AV123 MFW-15 ... Not sure of date
Epik Castle and Conquest ... Not sure of date

Notes

*: The Creative Sounds project totalled $1230 for 2 drivers, Behirnger EP-2500 Amp, and EQ. In addition to the $1230, one can either build an enclosure, or have one built for appx. $400. I estimate that a more expensive and powerful amplifier will add 2-4 points to this design.
__________________


are u going to test the eD A5-350 ?

Thanks Craig! I think you may have meant that some BM products will see substantial discounts? You're killing me with the SVS PB13-Ultra.

OOPS ... Fixed ... :o:D

are u going to test the eD A5-350 ?

If Alex or Chris think they want one tested, they know where to find me ... :)

That is 26 cubes NET. If you look at the A7-900, it is 19.5 cubes outside to get 10 cubes inside (thick walls, large drivers, big ports and extensive bracing take up a lot of real estate). Imagine what a beast this enclosure would have to be to get 26 net cubes.

A single SDX-15 in a 10 cubic foot box will deliver (tuned to 16 in the models, usually less in reality - about 15):

14 Hz - 103 dB
20 Hz - 106 dB
30 Hz - 107 dB ... and it remains pretty constant from 30 Hz and up.


As an aside - the Parts Express amp I just bought is perfect for a single driver SDX-15 project.

Just checking here--I model a Single SDX-15 in a 10cuft box, tuned to 15.95hz, with 1000watts, to deliver:


14Hz - 112 dB
20Hz - 114 dB
30Hz - 115 dB

Is that not accurate?

As an aside, I'm interested in that Dayton Sub amp for doing custom installations where the homeowner is going to be able to turn his pre/pro on and be up and running--and not have a DEQ in the mix, it seems like a nice box besides the 18hz HP filter. Have you noticed a detrimental effect to any HT use with that amp?

Thanks
Mike

that's incredible Craig

I'm interested in hearing some more subjective impressions regarding your diy project, did if feel tighter than the Fathom on music? was distortion less? did it "wow" you more than the ultra?

also, if a better amp adds a few points, what kind of performance improvement would you predict from better drivers, say a higher end offering from TC Sounds?

that's incredible Craig

I'm interested in hearing some more subjective impressions regarding your diy project, did if feel tighter than the Fathom on music? was distortion less? did it "wow" you more than the ultra?

also, if a better amp adds a few points, what kind of performance improvement would you predict from better drivers, say a higher end offering from TC Sounds?

Without actually having a TC-Sounds driver in a properly constructed cabinet, answering that is impossible.

Audible distortion is not an issue with the SDX-15's.

The Fathom still bested the DIY on music, though the DIY is fantastic.

Without actually having a TC-Sounds driver in a properly constructed cabinet, answering that is impossible.

Audible distortion is not an issue with the SDX-15's.

The Fathom still bested the DIY on music, though the DIY is fantastic.

is the fathom the best sub you ever heard with music?

is the fathom the best sub you ever heard with music?

Along with the DD-18, yes.

Along with the DD-18, yes.


:D He he I compared my Fathom f113's to the big TC Sounds sealed beast...I have to say the little dynamite JL cubes hold their own.

Craig thank you for doing the DIY and putting it in its rightful place!! The DIY community has be saying their subs for HT and going low are just the flat out best at a fraction of the cost for years :D

Now if you could do an IB array or manifold of 4 Q18s (26.12 Litres of displacement!!) driven by the EP2500 that would be the icing on the cake!! :D

craig...is there a place a person like me can order a turnkey constructed diy sub in the $600 range?

What kind of performance are we talking about here for that kind of price:confused:

craig...is there a place a person like me can order a turnkey constructed diy sub in the $600 range?

What kind of performance are we talking about here for that kind of price

Parts express sells sub kits so does Ed, DIY forum has tons of discussion on this stuff. Look for discussions on sonotub designs, etc.

Even better then a DIY sub box (ported or no ported) is the "infinite baffle" design. That even goes beyond the performance of a box sub. Google "the cult of the infinitely baffled". IB are incredibly effecient, go incredibly low and just give anyone a difference experience......hide the dishes/glasses, reinforce the windows ;)

What kind of performance are we talking about here for that kind of price

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ginmtb/woofer_comparison_chart.htm

Great chart for DIY drivers and costs

That Mach5s are incredibly popular because they are so damn cheap!! Well last year they were $65 each :D I think they have gone up.Ficaraudio has some very popular drivers now, I have 4 Q18s, displacement is incredible.

For $600, you can get a damn good sub system that will probably match any of the < $2000 subs but I dont think buying a pre-built box is cheap!

Along with the DD-18, yes.

is it possible that the gotham is even better on music than the fathom?

i hope you get to hear one

If Alex or Chris think they want one tested, they know where to find me ... :)


Well lets hope that Alex and Chris want one tested. :)

craig...is there a place a person like me can order a turnkey constructed diy sub in the $600 range?

What kind of performance are we talking about here for that kind of price:confused:

By Turnkey, I am guessing you don't want to do a whole lot of work. I can appreciate that line of thinking. Some guys love working with wood, and some don't.

For "easy" @ $600, Penngray mentioned eD and Parts Express .. both have some good stuff.

He also mentioned IB ... IB, in the right circumstance, can yield exceptional results. You need a good size room, attic, crawl space ... etc ... and for $600, carpentry skills.

A couple REALLY low labor suggestions ...

Elemental Designs A5-350 @ $600 delivered.
Epik's new sealed 15 inch Valor

Basically, they are a DIY design that is done for you. Both have powerful 15 inch drivers from companies that "cut their teeth" in the DIY world.

Craig thank you for doing the DIY and putting it in its rightful place!! The DIY community has be saying their subs for HT and going low are just the flat out best at a fraction of the cost for years :D

Now if you could do an IB array or manifold of 4 Q18s (26.12 Litres of displacement!!) driven by the EP2500 that would be the icing on the cake!! :D

If I had the right room situation, I would put in an IB ..

And you are welcome ... :)

Creative Sounds did the hard part, though ... :D

Craig, is there a reason why the SVS PB10 scored identically to the larger PB12 NSD on home theater ? I would have thought that there would be an improvement in low end extension, distortion and output.

Thanks.

Craig, is there a reason why the SVS PB10 scored identically to the larger PB12 NSD on home theater ? I would have thought that there would be an improvement in low end extension, distortion and output.

Thanks.

The best PB-10 gives one the same feeling of "room explosion" as does the PB12-NSD.

The best way of putting it is this ... Fire up WOTW, and swap out the 2 subs ... you won't notice a difference.

Thanks.

The testing on the PB Ultra-13 is complete.

This is one absolutely amazing subwoofer. For starters, here is the graph of WOTW, taken from the listening position:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/UltraWOTW.jpg

This was in the native, 3 ports open 20 Hz tuning option.

Note the output at various frequencies:

15 Hz: 97 dB
20 Hz: 104 dB
25 Hz: 105 dB

What makes this scene so difficult is the fact that the subwoofer is being made to deliver high levels of bass at several different frequencies simultaneously. It is a true torture test. In the 15 to 25 Hz bandwidth, the Ultra is out-gunning the Fathom by several dB.

The Ultra also is as articulate as the Fathom above 30 Hz while being more visceral below 30.

Overall, the Ultra gets a 57 on Home Theater and a 52 on music, for a 109.

Just checking here--I model a Single SDX-15 in a 10cuft box, tuned to 15.95hz, with 1000watts, to deliver:


14Hz - 112 dB
20Hz - 114 dB
30Hz - 115 dB

Is that not accurate?

As an aside, I'm interested in that Dayton Sub amp for doing custom installations where the homeowner is going to be able to turn his pre/pro on and be up and running--and not have a DEQ in the mix, it seems like a nice box besides the 18hz HP filter. Have you noticed a detrimental effect to any HT use with that amp?

Thanks
Mike

Mike ... I used 600 watts, as that was what his amp could deliver,and as the Ultra was measured @ 2 meters, I adjusted 6 dB from the WinISD model.

The PE amp has a problem with a 2 ohm load, otherwise, it is excellent.:)

http://www.iasca.com/events/top20/wr_list.php

Iggster, with some of those numbers you are throwing around why arn't you in the record books?

The testing on the PB Ultra-13 is complete.

This is one absolutely amazing subwoofer. For starters, here is the graph of WOTW, taken from the listening position:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/UltraWOTW.jpg

This was in the native, 3 ports open 20 Hz tuning option.

Note the output at various frequencies:

15 Hz: 97 dB
20 Hz: 104 dB
25 Hz: 105 dB

What makes this scene so difficult is the fact that the subwoofer is being made to deliver high levels of bass at several different frequencies simultaneously. It is a true torture test. In the 15 to 25 Hz bandwidth, the Ultra is out-gunning the Fathom by several dB.

The Ultra also is as articulate as the Fathom above 30 Hz while being more visceral below 30.

Overall, the Ultra gets a 57 on Home Theater and a 52 on music, for a 109.

that's the highest score on music yet

does that mean it's now the best sub you ever heard on music?

The testing on the PB Ultra-13 is complete.

This is one absolutely amazing subwoofer. For starters, here is the graph of WOTW, taken from the listening position:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/UltraWOTW.jpg

This was in the native, 3 ports open 20 Hz tuning option.

Note the output at various frequencies:

15 Hz: 97 dB
20 Hz: 104 dB
25 Hz: 105 dB

What makes this scene so difficult is the fact that the subwoofer is being made to deliver high levels of bass at several different frequencies simultaneously. It is a true torture test. In the 15 to 25 Hz bandwidth, the Ultra is out-gunning the Fathom by several dB.

The Ultra also is as articulate as the Fathom above 30 Hz while being more visceral below 30.

Overall, the Ultra gets a 57 on Home Theater and a 52 on music, for a 109.

109:eek:

The testing on the PB Ultra-13 is complete.

This is one absolutely amazing subwoofer. For starters, here is the graph of WOTW, taken from the listening position:

This was in the native, 3 ports open 20 Hz tuning option.

Note the output at various frequencies:

15 Hz: 97 dB
20 Hz: 104 dB
25 Hz: 105 dB

What makes this scene so difficult is the fact that the subwoofer is being made to deliver high levels of bass at several different frequencies simultaneously. It is a true torture test. In the 15 to 25 Hz bandwidth, the Ultra is out-gunning the Fathom by several dB.

The Ultra also is as articulate as the Fathom above 30 Hz while being more visceral below 30.

Overall, the Ultra gets a 57 on Home Theater and a 52 on music, for a 109.
Have you applied EQ to this? I notice this is lacking the usual SVS 40Hz hump. I am also surprised at how gradual the roll off below tuning is.

Randy ... I am using an SMS-1, but that is for issues with the room.

Check out this response curve as measured on AVTalk:

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7979