I want a PB Ultra-13.

Now. :D

that's the highest score on music yet

does that mean it's now the best sub you ever heard on music?

Yes, it is.

Yes, it is.

and 4 hours ago it was the fathom and the DD-18 ?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11630747&postcount=2734

Since SVS in the new champ I wonder when we will see a new product form velodyne since the DD series has been out for quite a while now.

Randy ... I am using an SMS-1, but that is for issues with the room.

Check out this response curve as measured on AVTalk:

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7979I saw that, but it looks like they use an awful lot of smoothing on their graphs. Plus this is a sweep and not complex signals. Now yours shows it is still fairly flat even with the complex signals from a movie. If this shows a good representation, then it looks like SVS has finally figured out what flat response truly is.

I think SVS is gonna be VERY busy for the next little while

and 4 hours ago it was the fathom and the DD-18 ?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11630747&postcount=2734

I was not finished with the final notes ... therefore the Ultra review was not done yet.

Can't a guy finish with a product before commenting on its performance ? :p

Craig, that score is phenomenal, prior to testing the Ultra did you reasonably expect it to perform THAT well?

I saw that, but it looks like they use an awful lot of smoothing on their graphs. Plus this is a sweep and not complex signals. Now yours shows it is still fairly flat even with the complex signals from a movie. If this shows a good representation, then it looks like SVS has finally figured out what flat response truly is.

Randy, based on what the Ultra is doing on music tracks, I would say they have the linearity issue well in hand with this sub.

If not for the new stuff from Epik, I would just order another Ultra and be done with it.

Well ... maybe three more ... :D

I ordered an Ultra on the last day you could order at the preorder price. I wish you could see the smile on my face. I am not gloating but I am pretty happy about this. I never expected it to score that high overall and particullarly on music. I am sort of in shock in a good way.:eek: Now I just have to wait on arrival. I will go back to just reading now. Please excuse this outburst. :D:D:D

To do a little analysis, let's look at the Fathom and the Ultra.

To go from 103 to 109 points is about a 30 percent improvement overall.

The Ultra delivers about 6 dB more bass below 30 Hz on the torture scene as vs. the Fathom.

It loses nothing in the way of upper bass performance to the Fathom on music.

Is calling this a 30 Percent improvement reasonable ?

Craig, 109 is a marked improvement over your DIY SDX15. Were you expecting that? Or does that come as a surprise?

I was not finished with the final notes ... therefore the Ultra review was not done yet.

Can't a guy finish with a product before commenting on its performance ? :p

ok, i was just a bit confused. nothing new for me :D

i've just been in big time "bitten by the upgrade bug" mode lately and trying to figure out which way to go

i can get the trintiy for 1500 but if the ultra is all that, i definitely have to consider it

but i have to be very careful because when i buy subs, i buy lots of subs :D

when you did the score on the ultra, are both the (57,52) with the ultra in native tune mode?

was music significantly better with ports closed? were movies significantly better with ports opened?

could one just choose one option and leave as is to experience great sound for both film and music?

thanks for the testing btw, fabulous work

Craig, 109 is a marked improvement over your DIY SDX15. Were you expecting that? Or does that come as a surprise?

Tough question to answer ... They are both very good ... but once you hear the Ultra on music vs. the DIY, the Ultra is definitely a notch above the DIY.

When/if time allows, I would like to try some other stuff with the DIY sub ... but with performance like the Ultra for $1500 ... building better for less is going to be a challenge.

ok, i was just a bit confused. nothing new for me :D

i've just been in big time "bitten by the upgrade bug" mode lately and trying to figure out which way to go

i can get the trintiy for 1500 but if the ultra is all that, i definitely have to consider it

but i have to be very careful because when i buy subs, i buy lots of subs :D

when you did the score on the ultra, are both the (57,52) with the ultra in native tune mode?

No worries, and yes, it was in its native tuning.

I am thrilled to see the test results on the Ultra, as mine should be here any day. I think the high musical scoring is what really suprises and excites me. Thanks for all the diligent work Craig!

hi musical score in "native tune" at that

Those results are nothing short of stunning! :eek: After using an Ultra for a few weeks I knew it would score well on your list, but it appears to be smoking the rather heady competition by a fairly wide margin. Thanks for the comparison.

Hail to the king!

(No, Craig, not you. :p The PB13 Ultra.)

Those results are nothing short of stunning! :eek: After using an Ultra for a few weeks I knew it would score well on your list, but it appears to be smoking the rather heady competition by a fairly wide margin. Thanks for the comparison.

Hail to the king!

(No, Craig, not you. :p The PB13 Ultra.)

That was funny :D ... and also a good point. SVS did all the work here, and they have nailed it.

Randy, based on what the Ultra is doing on music tracks, I would say they have the linearity issue well in hand with this sub.

If not for the new stuff from Epik, I would just order another Ultra and be done with it.

Well ... maybe three more ... :D

The smoothing used is 1/6 octave. If you really want to see what difference it makes, I have loaded up the unsmoothed version of the PB13-Ultra frequency response in 20Hz tune as an additional attachment in the same post as the normal smoothed response. You'll have to click on the attachment to view it. Most of what you see is just background noise rather than giving you more accuracy. ;)

Have you applied EQ to this? I notice this is lacking the usual SVS 40Hz hump. I am also surprised at how gradual the roll off below tuning is.
Craig, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like ransac is viewing your WOTW graph as if it is an in-room frequency response graph, which it is not (but is a common misperception of these DVD scene tests) as you have explained previously in this long thread - it is a graph of the sub's cumulative response to that section of source material but it is not to be taken as a typical frequency response graph such as the AVTalk tests you referred ransac to...

Cheers,
Ross

Overall, the Ultra gets a 57 on Home Theater and a 52 on music, for a 109.
Wow. That's really good considering the f113 got "only" 50 on music. And the f113 has been ranked all time #1 music subwoofer by practically every magazine and review.

SVS really hit the nail with this one. :)

Now who said that a ported subwoofer can't sound as good as a sealed subwoofer? ;)

this just in, the ear just leaped off the top of the 1000 de La Gauchetière building with his fathoms :p

Craig, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like ransac is viewing your WOTW graph as if it is an in-room frequency response graph, which it is not (but is a common misperception of these DVD scenes tests) as you have explained previously in this long thread - it is a graph of the sub's cumulative response to that section of source material but it is not to be taken as a typical frequency response graph such as the AVTalk tests you referred ransac to...

Cheers,
Ross

Ross - You are correct, it is not a response curve. Randy may also have noticed the curve is pretty close to the Fathom's ... especially when you consider it is a real scene, and in room.

Other SVS subs have shown an elevated response from 35-50 Hz during this scene.

I'm not shocked it performed very well, I had the F113 for two weeks it's a great sub. However the PB13u sub has a different sound, and integrates into my room just as well if not better. The over all experience is much more engaging, especially the smile caused by the price difference.

DIY will be hard pressed to create this level of performance, quality and accuracy for the same price. But this will also drive people to get more creative. I love how this will push the loop of innovation. Going to be interesting to see the next round of DIY and pro subs.

Apparently the PB-13 has beaten the almighty Genelec big coffin-sized subwoofer in the 20 hz tune.

That is extremely impressive. Considering there are 4 Nomex 12" woofer cones in a much larger enclosure I would have imagined that the big Genelec would have generated far higher figures below 20 hz.

109!!! I don't claim to fully understand your scoring system, but that raises the bar pretty high with the F113 now being ONLY 103. Are you sure you don't want to reserve this ranking until you have put the other contenders through their paces? With this kind of shifting of the curve, it will make the lower end subs look pretty poor in comparison. But it is your ranking system, so I'll defer to your judgment. Now, if the upcoming GTG substantiates this ranking, then I will be truly impressed that a $1500 sub can score so high.

Ross - You are correct, it is not a response curve. Randy may also have noticed the curve is pretty close to the Fathom's ... especially when you consider it is a real scene, and in room.

Other SVS subs have shown an elevated response from 35-50 Hz during this scene.I do tend to type before I think. I assume that movie source material is very broad spectrum and covers the low end very evenly. Movies don't appear to have the dynamics of music. It would be nice to see a graph of the source material overlaid on the response graph. That would really tell the whole story. Either way, I am still surprised by these results. You also show that, even in the 20Hz tune, it will still dig deep. I know you said you are done, but any plans to measure in the other tunings?

Along with the DD-18, yes.
Hello Craig,
I am writing you from Paris. I am very much impressed with your ranking thread and learnt a lot about sub.
But most of the sub you rated are unfortunately not available in France and should be shipped. As an example : the total landed cost of the Hsu VTF3 (699$) is 1200$. Possible but a bit risky.
Velodyne has retail points in France. So i would like to compare Velodyne with Hsu or SVS products. But the DD18 which costs 4000 euros (5500$) is out of my budget.
The DD12 (for music) , the CHT12 or SPL 1200R (for HC) are the sub to be compared with Hsu and SVS. But these products are not mentioned in your lists.
Could you advice me (us : we are number of french audiophiles looking towards usa subs). Is it reasonable to consider these 3 velodyne subs at the same level of quality as Hsu and Svs products ?
Many thanks
Patrick

109!!! I don't claim to fully understand your scoring system, but that raises the bar pretty high with the F113 now being ONLY 103. Are you sure you don't want to reserve this ranking until you have put the other contenders through their paces? With this kind of shifting of the curve, it will make the lower end subs look pretty poor. But it is your ranking system, so I leave it to your judgment. Now, if the upcoming GTG substantiates this ranking, then I will be truly impressed that a $1500 sub can score so high. Great score...I speculate that the bar is ready to be raised, he hasn't posted the A7-900 scores, the DIY is 108+(depending on power) and he's got the Epik coming that's sure to make some high marks.

Personally, I would have flipped the HT/Music scores, though I have only listened to DDs, not the Fathom. That's not because the Ultra isn't a HT monster, but it's so good for music, I find that's 90% of how my free time gets spent. However, I'm sure it's much easier to score for HT performance.

Kudos Craig...

I do tend to type before I think. I assume that movie source material is very broad spectrum and covers the low end very evenly. Movies don't appear to have the dynamics of music. It would be nice to see a graph of the source material overlaid on the response graph. That would really tell the whole story. Either way, I am still surprised by these results. You also show that, even in the 20Hz tune, it will still dig deep. I know you said you are done, but any plans to measure in the other tunings?

It was tempting to try the different tuning options, but also it is very time consuming ... especially when trying to get through several subs at once.

I will be trying the 15 Hz option in the near future, and will report back.

this just in, the ear just leaped off the top of the 1000 de La Gauchetière building with his fathoms :p


Craig is dead meat...:mad::mad: Give me a ladder I am jumping...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Ahhhhhhh SVS you will have to sell dual Ultra13's to one person who calls himself TheEAR! :p:p

http://www.iasca.com/events/top20/wr_list.php

Iggster, with some of those numbers you are throwing around why arn't you in the record books?

cause we did it in 2005 and here you go some proof...

http://audioforum.termpro.com/topic/30/499.html#000002

http://www.termpro.com/asp/competitorstats.asp?Competitor_ID=41599

http://www.termpro.com/asp/competitorstats.asp?Competitor_ID=47986&Season=2007&Page=5


My buddy got all the stats since at that time I was still competiting with my own which we both couldn't get loud :o but we got his crx mighty loud. Oh the days testing at his apartment for hours till a couple moved in and decided to call the cops on us even when just talking outside :( Then we had to drive all the way to chino to chads shop to test which was way to much of a hassle so he quit and I kepted competing but my vehicle was never as loud as his cause if you know dbdrag the crx>all vehicles except a panda which is european car

oh ya heres a pix of me on the crx helping gain .2 dbs :p

http://www.termpro.com/asp/eventresults5.asp?Image=E7397W1M46049P39&Event_ID=7397

Great score...I speculate that the bar is ready to be raised, he hasn't posted the A7-900 scores, the DIY is 108+(depending on power) and he's got the Epik coming that's sure to make some high marks.

Personally, I would have flipped the HT/Music scores, though I have only listened to DDs, not the Fathom. That's not because the Ultra isn't a HT monster, but it's so good for music, I find that's 90% of how my free time gets spent. However, I'm sure it's much easier to score for HT performance.

Kudos Craig...

For further clarity, the 50-50 score for the Velodyne DD-18 was taken as a benchmark. At the time, it was the best on both HT and music that we had.

100 points does not mean the velo was "100 % perfect"

It could just as easily been 0-0 ... with "lesser" subs scoring a "minus" number.

The Fathom was better than the DD-18 on HT ...and the Ultra and DIY project best the Fathom.

The Epik subs are REALLY going to be interesting, as they truly are a marriage of DIY and commercial subs.

And yes, it is possible for a subwoofer to score 118 points, too ... roughly double the overall performance of a DD-18.

wow looking at the current records looks like we can pretty much show up to an iasca car show with the old 2-3 year old setup and still get a world record :D well the current record holder beat our old record by .1 db and in stock pro 3 which we could also compete in, we would take it :)

http://www.termpro.com/asp/eventresults5.asp?Image=E7397W1M46049P39&Event_ID=7397

Hah I see my buddy tuan in the picture (guy wearing the black jacket behind the show promoter on the laptop) I remember him telling me he wanted to compete in 2006 and that he thought he was not gonna get loud... I told him with lots of hard work and some help he would. He won a world championship in street a in 2006!

Iggster and Blueray, can you take this somewhere else. This thread is long enough without a bunch of car crap thrown in. Thanks.

Iggster and Blueray, can you take this somewhere else. This thread is long enough without a bunch of car crap thrown in. Thanks.

Agreed .. IF they want to bring strippers (female only, please) into this, that's cool. Lingerie models also work. But no more car crap.

We have STANDARDS here. :D

hope the price does not go balistic after these tests.

hope the price does not go balistic after these tests.
LOL. :D

I'm sure it doesn't.

DIY will be hard pressed to create this level of performance, quality and accuracy for the same price.
eh?:confused: for $1400???

would love to hear why you think this is the case...REALLY would love to hear this one :rolleyes:

Agreed .. IF they want to bring strippers (female only, please) into this, that's cool. Lingerie models also work. But no more car crap.

We have STANDARDS here. :D

Hey I am only posting what I was asked which was proof, Or does someone wants robs phone number to confirm things :o I just called him and told him about the 157.4 and was like dam man we should come back out and he said Oh hell ya :)

btw without the experience I have from spl/car audio I would not be getting the performance I am getting out of my diy sub.... I can be as bold at to say that with an lms 5400 and my box nothing that craig has tested can touch the performance of it...and even with the tc2000 it will pretty much outperform anything on here also :) (with the exception of the big ed audio sub unless I drop in the lms 5400)

Hey I am only posting what I was asked which was proof, Or does someone wants robs phone number to confirm things :o I just called him and told him about the 157.4 and was like dam man we should come back out and he said Oh hell ya :)

btw without the experience I have from spl/car audio I would not be getting the performance I am getting out of my diy sub.... I can be as bold at to say that with an lms 5400 and my box nothing that craig has tested can touch the performance of it...and even with the tc2000 it will pretty much outperform anything on here also :) (with the exception of the big ed audio sub unless I drop in the lms 5400)

Iggster, Ilkka measured a TC-2000 in a 270 Liter enclosure, using a 2200 watt(bridged @ 4 ohms) amp.

He was able to get the following ...

15 Hz - 102 dB
20 Hz - 106 dB


AVTalk, measuring @ 2 meters from the exterior, vs. Ilkka's from the center of the enclosure, managed the following from the Ultra:

15 Hz - 102 dB
20 Hz - 107 dB


For a specific example on identical subwoofers as measured by both Ilkka and AVtalk ... With an SVS 20-39 PC+, Ilkka measured the SVS as delivering 2 dB higher SPL @ 20 Hz, 30 Hz, and 40 Hz than did AVtalk.

Ilkka's measurements are very close to the max output measurements from a 270 Liter box are in WIN ISD Pro.

Now, if you would, PLEASE open another thread and tell us the science behind how your box is going to take the TC-2000 and make it perform to these astonishing levels ?

Craig, are you going to be posting any output measurements at different frequencies of the Ultra like you did with the other subs?

It seems that Ilkka got higher numbers than you are suggesting. You should look at the CEA 2010 numbers.

Also the AV Talk numbers for the new Ultra aren't showing the absolute max output since they didn't take higher than "110 dB" sweep. It didn't have much compression there so I'm pretty sure it could have gone even higher.

Here are the 270L TC2k numbers.

16 Hz - 108.1 dB
20 Hz - 109.3 dB
25 Hz - 111.2 dB

http://personal.inet.fi/private/zipman/shootout4/cea%202010%20compilation%20rms%202m.png

Iggster, Ilkka measured a TC-2000 in a 270 Liter enclosure, using a 2200 watt(bridged @ 4 ohms) amp.

He was able to get the following ...

15 Hz - 102 dB
20 Hz - 106 dB


AVTalk, measuring @ 2 meters from the exterior, vs. Ilkka's from the center of the enclosure, managed the following from the Ultra:

15 Hz - 102 dB
20 Hz - 107 dB


For a specific example on identical subwoofers as measured by both Ilkka and AVtalk ... With an SVS 20-39 PC+, Ilkka measured the SVS as delivering 2 dB higher SPL @ 20 Hz, 30 Hz, and 40 Hz than did AVtalk.

Ilkka's measurements are very close to the max output measurements from a 270 Liter box are in WIN ISD Pro.

Now, if you would, PLEASE open another thread and tell us the science behind how your box is going to take the TC-2000 and make it perform to these astonishing levels ?

Did ikka use my box:rolleyes:

your attempt on trying to predict the performance of MY box is like the attempt of you trying to figure out how alan got to 180.5 dbs :p

It seems that Ilkka got higher numbers than you are suggesting. You should look at the CEA 2010 numbers.

Also the AV Talk numbers for the new Ultra aren't showing the absolute max output since they didn't take higher than "110 dB" sweep. It didn't have much compression there so I'm pretty sure it could have gone even higher.

Here are the 270L TC2k numbers.

16 Hz - 108.1 dB
20 Hz - 109.3 dB
25 Hz - 111.2 dB


interesting :)

Let me point out that I am not using the same size box and even if two boxes of identical size are tested but if two different designers build them, then the chance of a performance change is very likely. Its not like buying a sub like the fathom and knowing its gonna do XX dbs.

I guess some people can't take a hint, no matter how blatant it is.

interesting :)

Let me point out that I am not using the same size box and even if two boxes of identical size are tested but if two different designers build them, then the chance of a performance change is very likely. Its not like buying a sub like the fathom and knowing its gonna do XX dbs.
Yes that's true. Although I don't believe your box would have performed that much better than the one he tested. A fraction or 1 dB but not many dB. What's the measured tuning frequency of your box? I see you are using two 4" ports?

Iggster please stop hijiacking this thread! This thread has an immense amount of time involved in it, and is extremeley useful for people trying to gather information. That is until your posts of course... Please open a new thread if, for some reason, you feel compelled to continue to babbling.

Also the AV Talk numbers for the new Ultra aren't showing the absolute max output since they didn't take higher than "110 dB" sweep. It didn't have much compression there so I'm pretty sure it could have gone even higher.

Eh?

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7987

That looks like compression to me, during the 100dB sweep. More than the TC-2000 tested by Ilkka showed at a 110dB sweep.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/45131-post3.html

Yes that's true. Although I don't believe your box would have performed that much better than the one he tested. A fraction or 1 dB but not many dB. What's the measured tuning frequency of your box? I see you are using two 6" ports. You must have higher tuning, right?

17-18 hertz I am using 2-4" ports. Remember his using a sonosub and I am using just a regular box, but I did some testing and built it just like others recommended but in the end I took the stuff out I was recommended to do and added things I know gained in my spl box's and ended up with a box 3 db louder from 25 hertz up and about 2 db louder at lower frequencies. Also he is using a different size box, his Is WAY bigger.

Mines isn't the end all to things I bet after the revisions I have in plan for it, it should get another .5 or so dbs louder.

I do wish I could test distortion but me and a friend ran some blind test's a while back and when I tested a 126.7 dbs at 18 hertz looks like it still had more in it (gain wasn't set right neither was the sound card), I wont know till tomorrow. If I had to guess after the testing me and my friend did well on the termlab I am expecting a 129 dbs, in my room which is ONLY 1000 cubic feet.

You are looking at the 15 Hz tune, I meant the 20 Hz tune here: http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7980

There is only 3 dB of compression around the tuning frequency, and 1 dB or less above. That means it still got some reserve left.

Same goes to Ilkka. That's why you should look at the CEA 2010 numbers because they will better show the maximum output. We don't have the CEA 2010 numbers on the new Ultra.

Iggster please stop hijiacking this thread! This thread has an immense amount of time involved in it, and is extremeley useful for people trying to gather information. That is until your posts of course... Please open a new thread if, for some reason, you feel compelled to continue to babbling.

Hey I am only doing what craig likes to do in other threads :p ill stop though anyone wants to discuss my sub just go to the link in my sig please.

It seems that Ilkka got higher numbers than you are suggesting. You should look at the CEA 2010 numbers.

Also the AV Talk numbers for the new Ultra aren't showing the absolute max output since they didn't take higher than "110 dB" sweep. It didn't have much compression there so I'm pretty sure it could have gone even higher.

Here are the 270L TC2k numbers.

16 Hz - 108.1 dB
20 Hz - 109.3 dB
25 Hz - 111.2 dB

http://personal.inet.fi/private/zipman/shootout4/cea%202010%20compilation%20rms%202m.png

Understood about how the SVS could easily have delivered more in terms of SPL.

Here is Ilkka's graph that matches up with the same methodology that AVtalk uses in terms of a descending signal ...

http://personal.inet.fi/private/zipman/shootout4/diy%20tc%20sounds%20tc-2000%2015%20ported%20270l%20mo.png

Iggster please stop hijiacking this thread! This thread has an immense amount of time involved in it, and is extremeley useful for people trying to gather information. That is until your posts of course... Please open a new thread if, for some reason, you feel compelled to continue to babbling.

AGREED!

17-18 hertz I am using 2-4" ports. Remember his using a sonosub and I am using just a regular box, but I did some testing and built it just like others recommended but in the end I took the stuff out I was recommended to do and added things I know gained in my spl box's and ended up with a box 3 db louder from 25 hertz up and about 2 db louder at lower frequencies. Also he is using a different size box, his Is WAY bigger.
Ok. But when looking at your construction pics, your box doesn't seem that special. As a matter of fact your bracing looks pretty weak. :) I doubt you are getting more low end output from that smaller box (and with less port area). Since you have a higher tuning, you will have more output above 17-18 Hz.

I do wish I could test distortion but me and a friend ran some blind test's a while back and when I tested a 126.7 dbs at 18 hertz looks like it still had more in it (gain wasn't set right neither was the sound card), I wont know till tomorrow. If I had to guess after the testing me and my friend did well on the termlab I am expecting a 129 dbs, in my room which is ONLY 1000 cubic feet.
You shouldn't compare indoor and outdoor numbers. 126.7 at 18 Hz means nothing unless that was a GP measurement.

Richard, maybe if we ignore him he will go away?

Ok. But when looking at your construction pics, your box doesn't seem that special. As a matter of fact your bracing looks pretty weak. :) I doubt you are getting more low end output from that smaller box (and with less port area). Since you have a higher tuning, you will have more output above 17-18 Hz.

actually its 1.5" mdf all around plus braces that attach the front to the back and sides, and their is tricks inside the box like no poly fill which that alone hurt the output almost by 2 dbs in my box though I did try it cause I know of certain situations of it helping or not hurting nor helping. Also it is fiberglassed in the inside and all the 90 degree angles gone. If you know spl those kind of things help. Also I had tuned it originally lower but the ports had to be bent in a 90 angle and instead of helping the low end it didn't help any and hurt the output at higher frequencies.

Most manufacturers wont do fiberglass or other things cause you will never see it and most people don't know those kind of things help performance.


You shouldn't compare indoor and outdoor numbers. 126.7 at 18 Hz means nothing unless that was a GP measurement.
Im not comparing it lol I am just giving a rough estimate even if I do ground plane testing with the termlab it wont be comparable to everyone elses test's cause the termlab measures different then other mics and is usually 6 or so db down from other mic's

btw lets take this to my thread if possible before craig gets more upset :p if not just let it die and when I have a meet at my new house then ill let the people who heard it do the talking for me :cool:

Slight regret I bought a Outlaw LFM-1 EX after these numbers.... but after adding a HSU MBM-12 to it on Friday, I really have never head anything better. So I'm happy!

Understood about how the SVS could easily have delivered more in terms of SPL.

Here is Ilkka's graph that matches up with the same methodology that AVtalk uses in terms of a descending signal ...

Yep, neither that nor the AV Talk graph shows the absolute maximum SPL at any frequency. Ilkka had to stop at 30 Hz due to amp clipping (it will have more output below that as the CEA 2010 spreadsheet shows), and AV Talk decided not to take one more 5 dB step.

Eh?

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7987

That looks like compression to me, during the 100dB sweep. More than the TC-2000 tested by Ilkka showed at a 110dB sweep.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/45131-post3.html

In the 100 dB sweep (15 Hz tune), the SVS delivers 95 dB @ 15 Hz, 99 dB @ 20 Hz and 99.5-100 dB from 25 Hz and up.

In the 100 dB sweep, the TC-2000 Sonotube delivers 95 dB @ 15 Hz, 96 dB @ 20 Hz and 99-100 dB above 25.

The difference is while comparing compression to 90 dB, the Sonotube is much less flat at 90 dB than is the SVS.

The SVS is still closer to the attempted 100 dB than is the Sonotube.

and AV Talk decided not to take one more 5 dB step.

This is what AV Talk says in their "Talk Subwoofer Tests - the why, the how and what to make of it all" section.

For the non-servo subs, we stopped ramping up the power when we started to see 3dB of power compression and/or the distortion measurements went into overdrive or audible distress from the driver was observed.

Eh?

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=7987

That looks like compression to me, during the 100dB sweep. More than the TC-2000 tested by Ilkka showed at a 110dB sweep.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/45131-post3.html

actually its 1.5" mdf all around plus braces that attach the front to the back and sides, and their is tricks inside the box like no poly fill which that alone hurt the output almost by 2 dbs in my box though I did try it cause I know of certain situations of it helping or not hurting nor helping. Also it is fiberglassed in the inside and all the 90 degree angles gone. If you know spl those kind of things help. Also I had tuned it originally lower but the ports had to be bent in a 90 angle and instead of helping the low end it didn't help any and hurt the output at higher frequencies.

Most manufacturers wont do fiberglass or other things cause you will never see it and most people don't know those kind of things help performance.


Im not comparing it lol I am just giving a rough estimate even if I do ground plane testing with the termlab it wont be comparable to everyone elses test's cause the termlab measures different then other mics and is usually 6 or so db down from other mic's

btw lets take this to my thread if possible before craig gets more upset :p if not just let it die and when I have a meet at my new house then ill let the people who heard it do the talking for me :cool:

Iggster, I am not upset. I am interested in reading why you think you can build a box that will exceed the other enclosures that the others have built, a great example being the 270 Liter Sonotube, TC-2000 and a 2200 watt amp.

I even asked you NICELY to open a thread about this.

;)

I even asked you NICELY to open a thread about this.

As have many others!

Here is the Sonotube graph:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/TCSoundsGraph.png

Here is the SVS graph:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/UltraGraph.jpg

This is not a "knock" on either ... we don't even know for sure yet what the TC-2000 will sell for. But it is certain that SVS has delivered a product that delivers both fantastic objective AND subjective performance for a very reasonable entry fee. :)

This is what AV Talk says in their "Talk Subwoofer Tests - the why, the how and what to make of it all" section.
Yes. But that doesn't mean there wouldn't be any output left so to speak. If you look at the distortion graph, you can see that there wasn't any/much audible distress during the '110 dB' sweep. There's clearly more juice in the tank, especially above ~30 Hz.

Yes. But that doesn't mean there wouldn't be any output left so to speak. If you look at the distortion graph, you can see that there wasn't any audible distress during the '110 dB' sweep. There's clearly more juice in the tank, especially above tuning.

Ilkka did that with the Sonotube ... As Richard pointed out, there was more juice in the tank above tuning on the Sonotube ... the 115 dB "pink line" in the Sonotube graph shows that "juice".

Slight regret I bought a Outlaw LFM-1 EX after these numbers.... but after adding a HSU MBM-12 to it on Friday, I really have never head anything better. So I'm happy!

That is a great combo ... and the fact that you are happy is what this is all about. Thanks for reminding us ... :)

Does anyone know if the tc sono sub that IKKA tested if they did a build thread? if so can someone please give me a link to the build thread, thanks.

eh?:confused: for $1400???

would love to hear why you think this is the case...REALLY would love to hear this one :rolleyes:

Another who did not experience serious DIY subs. :p

JL Audio Fathom are GREAT subs,the new SVS Ultra13 even more as it looks by reading Craig's report(even more output...below 30Hz)...but DIY at its finest is the final step.

Back to normal brodcast ...

Hail SVS Ultra13... great news for sub fanatics,hoping Craig reviews(tests)the new Epik Conquest :)

craigsub

i get the feeling u don't really like the eD SUBS?
Maybe i am wrong

craigsub

i get the feeling u don't really like the eD SUBS?
Maybe i am wrong

Well he likes the A2-300, that looks like a good thing for the budget minded. :)

for example, to get maximum infra sonic bass from the SDX-15, you really need an eq that works in the 15-20 Hz area. Later this year, I will definitely look into the Rane for this purpose.

We tried several times to tell you that you need to use a shelving filter. You don't need EQ in the 15-20hz area if you use a shelving filter. You have everything you need to make that graph flat to 15hz. I'm sure you gave it an honest attempt, but you do have the tools to do it. If you're having trouble, try contacting ThomasW here, or preferrably, at HTGuide (since he's easier to reach, there).

We tried several times to tell you that you need to use a shelving filter. You don't need EQ in the 15-20hz area if you use a shelving filter. You have everything you need to make that graph flat to 15hz. I'm sure you gave it an honest attempt, but you do have the tools to do it. If you're having trouble, try contacting ThomasW here, or preferrably, at HTGuide (since he's easier to reach, there).

As the unit measures flat now to 17 Hz, and is down 2 dB at 15 Hz, what am I missing at this point, in terms of a response curve ?

Mark Seaton offered this tip on the 10th ...

If I'm reading correctly, the response posted in the other thread was achieved with a few parametric filters. Note that your DEQ2496 also has 2 types of high and low shelving filters. On the BW(OCT) parameter for the PEQ you can keep turning the knob at one of the extremes and you will then see H6 & H12, and L6 & L12 (or something similar). These are the shelving filters in 6dB/Oct. and 12dB/Oct. form. The means by which you flatten the curve over whatever bandwidth will make for differences in the resulting sound as the relative levels above and below the "flattened" range will differ with different methods. None of the different approaches are wrong, just that they have different strengths, trade-offs and sonic characters.


and after playing with the 2496, I posted this on the 11th:

Employing the L12 on the Behringer has paid off big time. The Dual 15's are now delivering the type of bass below 20 Hz that one would expect in a sub of its objective abilities. It is very similar to the dual Maestros and Velodyne DD-18 ... Very fast and deep.

craigsub

i get the feeling u don't really like the eD SUBS?
Maybe i am wrong

I like them a LOT .. My wife ... well ... that's a different story... she is not too fond of them.

As the unit measures flat now to 17 Hz, and is down 2 dB at 15 Hz, what am I missing at this point, in terms of a response curve ?

I was looking at the curves on page 90, in comparison to the F113. Are those curves just showing the F113 compressing the 25-40hz range? And the low frequency content is just weaker (by ~20dB)? Where did you post the FR graphs of the SDX15s? I must have missed them.

Bravo SVS!! They have grabbed the Yellow Jersey from JL with an outstanding product for sure. To me the most surreal aspect of the Ultra13 isn't the performace it has achieved, its the price at which it brings the performance to the market. BRAVO SVS!!

I like them a LOT .. My wife ... well ... that's a different story... she is not too fond of them.

The wife doesn't like the way they SOUND or LOOK?

Bravo SVS!! They have grabbed the Yellow Jersey from JL with an outstanding product for sure. To me the most surreal aspect of the Ultra13 isn't the performace it has achieved, its the price at which it brings the performance to the market. BRAVO SVS!!

i agree the others will either have to discount or step the level up again
or the last option loose sales to svs.

I was looking at the curves on page 90, in comparison to the F113. Are those curves just showing the F113 compressing the 25-40hz range? And the low frequency content is just weaker (by ~20dB)? Where did you post the FR graphs of the SDX15s? I must have missed them.

Those are not response curves, Lindahl. They are max output graphs for WOTW. It is, to date, the most consistent and brutal subwoofer test I have seen.

The Fathom 113:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/WOTWJL.jpg

The SDX-15's:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SDX15WOTW4.jpg

I don't post every graph I take ... it would be 100's of graphs, and too time consuming.

With the Fathom, I am using the SMS-1 to boost the 15 Hz band by 5 dB ... it can "take" it .. and raises the response at that point. Above 20 Hz, the Dual 15's are quite ahead of the Fathom, and I believe an EQ which worked in the teens would allow me to enhance the performance.

Of course, this is only if "I know what I am doing" ... :D

The wife doesn't like the way they SOUND or LOOK?

The way they look. I think they look cool, and will make a nice addition to my new cigar bar in my detached garage ...

Why she does not like these is a mystery. She often LIKES ugly ... she married ME ... :D

Here they are again ...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2043.jpg

...and I believe an EQ which worked in the teens would allow me to enhance the performance.

Of course, this is only if "I know what I am doing" ... :D
You said it best. :D

Wow. That's really good considering the f113 got "only" 50 on music. And the f113 has been ranked all time #1 music subwoofer by practically every magazine and review.

SVS really hit the nail with this one. :)

Now who said that a ported subwoofer can't sound as good as a sealed subwoofer? ;)

I know I thought that at one point hehe This is quite surprising though, SVS has not really been known for producing musical subs. Nice job Craig and SVS.

You said it best. :D

Yes, operating an EQ is a new thing for me.

Here is an exercise for you. Our room is 25x21 feet plus a 6 x 8 foot alcove. The subwoofer is wall loaded, and the ceilings are 9 feet high.

I am using dual SDX-15's in a 7.5 cubic foot sealed cabinet.

With no eq available, what is the predicted response curve? What should the response be with the L12 shelving curve added?

Finally, what 3 other major areas need "fixed" in this room in order to achieve a flat response to 15 Hz ?

Yes. But that doesn't mean there wouldn't be any output left so to speak. If you look at the distortion graph, you can see that there wasn't any/much audible distress during the '110 dB' sweep. There's clearly more juice in the tank, especially above ~30 Hz.

To be fair, neither of us know if there was or wasn't audible distress during the 110dB sweep, and of course it depends on the frequency you're referring to (distortion). Its irrelevant anyway.

And you can say the latter about almost any sub. Having "more juice in the tank" above 30Hz isn't hard to achieve...

I was just pointing out that your assertion that the SVS wasn't displaying any compression with the 110dB sweep is incorrect and why AVTalk didn't do a higher sweep.

Relax, I'm just busting your chops. :cool:

The main thing is that you don't need Rane or any other EQ to fix that lacking low end. Just apply a sufficient low-shelf filter at 20 Hz. Done.

To be fair, neither of us know if there was or wasn't audible distress during the 110dB sweep, and of course it depends on the frequency you're referring to (distortion). Its irrelevant anyway.

And you can say the latter about almost any sub. Having "more juice in the tank" above 30Hz isn't hard to achieve...

I was just pointing out that your assertion that the SVS wasn't displaying any compression with the 110dB sweep is incorrect and why AVTalk didn't do a higher sweep.
Where did I say that the SVS wasn't displaying any compression with the 110dB sweep? :)

Here's what I said: "Also the AV Talk numbers for the new Ultra aren't showing the absolute max output since they didn't take higher than "110 dB" sweep. It didn't have much compression there so I'm pretty sure it could have gone even higher."

Relax, I'm just busting your chops. :cool:

The main thing is that you don't need Rane or any other EQ to fix that lacking low end. Just apply a sufficient low-shelf filter at 20 Hz. Done.

I like chop busting ... and now everyone here knows you were having fun. That's a good thing. :)

By the way, the challenge in this room is a pretty sharp peak at 24 Hz, and another at 27 ... and very little room gain, as the alcove feeds into a large kitchen.

The shelving curve on the 2496 works great to about 18 Hz ... and then the natural roll off sets in.

In the real world, it is not the 15 Hz stuff that makes the performance, anyway. It is the linearity above 18 Hz and the overall power that "does" it.

This is why the big Genelecs don't look so good on paper, but when you hear one in person, they are amazing. That is also why I would go with more power to increase the 18 Hz and up stuff, rather than worrying about the 17 Hz and down.

SVS got that right in this design. Its linearity is evident in AVtalk's graphs ... and also in a good listening session.

If I was building, say, a quad SDX-15 ported set up, I would want it to sound like a REALLY big version of the SVS PB-13 Ultra.

Now ... to the next question.

Chad Kuypers is supposed to be calling me so I can buy some subs to torture. Anybody see him around ?

With the Fathom, I am using the SMS-1 to boost the 15 Hz band by 5 dB ... it can "take" it .. and raises the response at that point.

Even if you raise the response of the SDX15 by 5 dB at 15hz, you're still looking at a much less flat graph. So, either the SDX15 isn't performing flat, or the F113 is compressing bass in the 25-40hz. Considering you said the SDX15s are performing flat, can I take your responses to mean that in that WoTW scene, the F113 is compressing by over 5 dB in the 25-40hz range?

I believe an EQ which worked in the teens would allow me to enhance the performance.

Wouldn't that make the response of the SDX15 non-flat? Or are you attempting a rising response into 15hz? An EQ that worked in the teens isn't needed. Just do some more extreme shelving, and add a PEQ for a shallow roll-off at 20hz (low Q). With the DEQ2496, you can easily provide a anechoic -3 dB point of 15hz, and -6 dB point at 10hz, which should easily translate into a rising response into the teens. Apply a Linkwitz Transform for low .4 Q at 20hz, and apply a huge PEQ cut (-11 dB) at 115hz, with a low Q of around .12, or so. The Linkwitz transform helps shift the roll-off much lower, while the huge cut up high brings the upper response low enough to adjust the roll-off to an extremely low point.

The shelving curve on the 2496 works great to about 18 Hz ... and then the natural roll off sets in.
Even if you max it out? I believe 15 dB gain is as high as it can go.


In the real world, it is not the 15 Hz stuff that makes the performance, anyway. It is the linearity above 18 Hz and the overall power that "does" it.

That is also why I would go with more power to increase the 18 Hz and up stuff, rather than worrying about the 17 Hz and down.
I definitely agree.


SVS got that right in this design. Its linearity is evident in AVtalk's graphs ... and also in a good listening session.
Yep: Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud still works. No magic there. :)

Another who did not experience serious DIY subs. :p

JL Audio Fathom are GREAT subs,the new SVS Ultra13 even more as it looks by reading Craig's report(even more output...below 30Hz)...but DIY at its finest is the final step.

Back to normal brodcast ...

Hail SVS Ultra13... great news for sub fanatics,hoping Craig reviews(tests)the new Epik Conquest :)

TheEar, ok then ;) tell us what parts you'd use for a "DIY at it's finest" to beat the Ultra13? Maybe a very well built box, a top of the line woofer from TCSounds or Soundsplinter, and a decent >1,000wt. amplifier?

Even if you raise the response of the SDX15 by 5 dB at 15hz, you're still looking at a much less flat graph. So, either the SDX15 isn't performing flat, or the F113 is compressing bass in the 25-40hz. Considering you said the SDX15s are performing flat, can I take your responses to mean that in that WoTW scene, the F113 is compressing by over 5 dB in the 25-40hz range?



Wouldn't that make the response of the SDX15 non-flat? Or are you attempting a rising response into 15hz? An EQ that worked in the teens isn't needed. Just do some more extreme shelving, and add a PEQ for a shallow roll-off at 20hz (low Q). With the DEQ2496, you can easily provide a anechoic -3 dB point of 15hz, and -6 dB point at 10hz, which should easily translate into a rising response into the teens. Apply a Linkwitz Transform for low .4 Q at 20hz, and apply a huge PEQ cut (-11 dB) at 115hz, with a low Q of around .12, or so. The Linkwitz transform helps shift the roll-off much lower, while the huge cut up high brings the upper response low enough to adjust the roll-off to an extremely low point.

Yes, The JL sub is compressing in this scene at those frequencies. That is why it is a torture test.

Thanks for the ... "advice". If you wish to discuss that further, please, PM me.

Even if you max it out? I believe 15 dB gain is as high as it can go.



I could try even a higher setting, but I was getting a bit boomy in the 20 Hz area when I did.

Back to subwoofer stuff ... I will be trying, AGAIN, to get my brother's lead engineer to build for me a 9 to 10 cubic foot box for the other SDX-15. I already have the PE amp ... 1000 watts ... and this driver sounds good enough that a ported alignment is warranted.

Models show 107 dB or more from 16 Hz and up (adjusted for 2 m).

A good Baltic Birch enclosure ... and we should have something interesting for $600 worth of drivers and amp plus an enclosure.

They have let me down a few times, but hopefully this time, they will work on it.

Where did I say that the SVS wasn't displaying any compression with the 110dB sweep? :)

Here's what I said: "Also the AV Talk numbers for the new Ultra aren't showing the absolute max output since they didn't take higher than "110 dB" sweep. It didn't have much compression there so I'm pretty sure it could have gone even higher."

Richard is correct. Above ~30 Hz, the PB13U can play louder than 110 dB on the reverse sine sweep, but the 115 dB sweep level is just above its max output limits in the 30-80 Hz bandwidth. The amp is passing so much current at the 115 dB sweep level that a sustained (16 second) sweep will probably just blow a fuse to protect the amp.

A 5 dB sweep increment is about an 80% increase in acoustic output; had the sweeps been conducted in finer increments (say 3 dB), the PB13U would have likely pulled a 113 dB sweep without compression down to about 30 Hz.

Craig, I just found this forum and have seriously just spent about 2 hours reading 80 pages of this.. Absolutely great info, to say you KNOW subs is an understatement. I just bought a second Def Tech Reference sub and am fairly new at this. I stacked them on top of each other and am wondering (in general) what I should have the settings at on each?? I know it can vary on size of the room and acoustics but until I build a dedicated theater (next year) just a general idea would be awesome. It has a volume control , high pass crossover, low pass crossover and phase.. Your advice would be greatly appreciated.. BTW, loved your review on the Trinity. I was thinking about getting 1 Trinity but am real happy with the 2 Reference.. Thanks again,

Craig, I just found this forum and have seriously just spent about 2 hours reading 80 pages of this.. Absolutely great info, to say you KNOW subs is an understatement. I just bought a second Def Tech Reference sub and am fairly new at this. I stacked them on top of each other and am wondering (in general) what I should have the settings at on each?? I know it can vary on size of the room and acoustics but until I build a dedicated theater (next year) just a general idea would be awesome. It has a volume control , high pass crossover, low pass crossover and phase.. Your advice would be greatly appreciated.. BTW, loved your review on the Trinity. I was thinking about getting 1 Trinity but am real happy with the 2 Reference.. Thanks again,

Actually, the guys who know subs are Mark Seaton, Chad Kupyers, Ed Mullen ... etal...

But thanks...:)

IF you are using the crossover in your receiver/pre amp, then use the LFE inputs on the back of the sub, as it by passes the crossovers.

Calibrate one subwoofer for phase and volume ... then bring in the 2nd sub, using the same phase setting and adjust volume on each sub accordingly, to remain properly calibrated with the mains.

Enjoy !

Craig, I just found this forum and have seriously just spent about 2 hours reading 80 pages of this.. Absolutely great info, to say you KNOW subs is an understatement. I just bought a second Def Tech Reference sub and am fairly new at this. I stacked them on top of each other and am wondering (in general) what I should have the settings at on each?? I know it can vary on size of the room and acoustics but until I build a dedicated theater (next year) just a general idea would be awesome. It has a volume control , high pass crossover, low pass crossover and phase.. Your advice would be greatly appreciated.. BTW, loved your review on the Trinity. I was thinking about getting 1 Trinity but am real happy with the 2 Reference.. Thanks again,

Get an SPL meter and calibrate it with REW (RoomEQWizard)

There's lots more steps involved but that is for another thread. ;)

If you just hit a $300.00 million Powerball lottery and were having a ménage à trois with Eva Mendes, Rebecca Romijn-Stamos and Pamela Anderson on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and every other Friday... but you could only buy one -- which would it be?

With the conditional understanding that too much is never enough of course. ;)I just had dinner..thx for ruining it.blah!

So who all thinks CRAIG will get his review on SVS' site now?;):p

great job Craig!!

What edition and audio format of WOTW are you using for these tests? I've only been able to find Normal 5.1, but I was wondering if you guys are using DTS/HD-DVD/BD-DVD.

Besides the extreme bass in the movie, does it suck as much as everyone says it does?

I just really wish that craig could do a comparision with a $1400 IB setup.
I would certainly be apt to think that 4 AE IB subs (400) + BFD (100) + EP2500 (350) + materials (100) would be a pretty competitive sub at just under 1K

Have had mine order. Man, I can't wait for the piano black U13 to ship.

What edition and audio format of WOTW are you using for these tests? I've only been able to find Normal 5.1, but I was wondering if you guys are using DTS/HD-DVD/BD-DVD.

Besides the extreme bass in the movie, does it suck as much as everyone says it does?

I use the DTS disc. The movie is fine. If the Martians had just taken Cruise and Dakota Fanning back to the Red Planet, they would have been the GOOD guys. :D

What edition and audio format of WOTW are you using for these tests? I've only been able to find Normal 5.1, but I was wondering if you guys are using DTS/HD-DVD/BD-DVD.

Besides the extreme bass in the movie, does it suck as much as everyone says it does?
its not on HD DVD nor blu ray only dvd. I doubt its coming to blu ray or hd dvd anytime soon either, its paramount movie and paramount is HD DVD exclusive but the spielberg bs will ruin it for everyone.

Thanks CraigSub and Iggster

its not on HD DVD nor blu ray only dvd. I doubt its coming to blu ray or hd dvd anytime soon either, its paramount movie and paramount is HD DVD exclusive but the spielberg bs will ruin it for everyone.

imagine the scene where the tri-pods come out of the ground but with the new 7.1 HD sound formats :eek:

imagine the scene where the tri-pods come out of the ground but with the new 7.1 HD sound formats :eek:

I know huh I use wotw for demos and I have both blu ray and hd dvd and wotw is still better then anything I can find on either HDM, I cant wait for transfomers though :)

ps I haven't forgot about you, I will look for the graphs on my laptop later tonight.

What edition and audio format of WOTW are you using for these tests? I've only been able to find Normal 5.1, but I was wondering if you guys are using DTS/HD-DVD/BD-DVD.

Besides the extreme bass in the movie, does it suck as much as everyone says it does?

sucks based on the ending in my book..wife liked it a lot.

DIY will be hard pressed to create this level of performance, quality and accuracy for the same price.

$1500 is what my IB cost (4 Q18s, displacing 27 Liters!!!), IBs are incredibly accurate, My non-EQ graph is this so far...
http://www.penngray.com/house/AV%20project/q18s_2.jpg

I need to start tweaking it to see what I can really do besides shake an entire 3800 sq ft house, I think its honestly dangerous!! :eek: I should measure WOTW like Craig did buy Im kind of lazy at doing that stuff :(

now I need to buy the PB13 to compare it against my IB.
Craig, you have an incredible passion for this stuff and you are doing a great non-bias testing/rating job!!

TheEar, ok then ;) tell us what parts you'd use for a "DIY at it's finest" to beat the Ultra13? Maybe a very well built box, a top of the line woofer from TCSounds or Soundsplinter, and a decent >1,000wt. amplifier?

there are more than enough parts out there to beat DUAL SVS PB13's for $1500.....

Drivers: Ficaraudio, Soundsplinter, SDX, TCsounds, etc, etc, etc.
Amps: Ep2500, used Crown K2's, CE4000's, QSC PLX's, etc, etc, etc.
Enclosure: from Sealed, to Ported, to LLT.

Rather than picking "cream of the crop" examples, I can use just a couple of mine:

Ported AV15, 500W bash amp, Single 6" flared port, tuned to 16hz:
http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/5677/2104732620037002257S500x500Q85.jpghttp://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/4141/2260441580037002257S500x500Q85.jpg
http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/10015/2119339020037002257S500x500Q85.jpghttp://inlinethumb63.webshots.com/4670/2007752410037002257S500x500Q85.jpg

Total price (including rosewood veneer finish):: $600~$700
Performance: somewhere close to an PB12-Ultra/2......other member's comments:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=246452&postcount=167
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=246758&postcount=198



As for obliterating it for $1500, you can build numerous subs, including a single sonosub:

Large Low Tuned EBS, Avalanche 18" XBL^2 driver, Crown K2 amp, tuned to 12.4hz:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/ssabripo/DIY%20Ava18%20subs/ava18subs001.jpg
one of the above can hit 120dB's at seat without breaking a sweat, and it's normalized FR looks like:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/ssabripo/AVA18%20measurements/1steq_try.jpg




Numerous other examples from MANY others.....Arthur (TheEar) was a commercial enthusiast (and still is), and less than 9 months ago was in the camp that DIY would have a tough time keeping up subs like the fathom....couple of TC sound drivers and some wood and decent power, and his tuned has changed quite dramatically, as have most who venture into this arena, yours truly included.

That the Fathom is a great sub, is agreed.
That the new PB13 has raised the bar, is agreed
That the new Epik subs will probably be kings, is agreed.

that DIY will have " a tough time keeping up with the performance and look" of these aforementioned subs? laughable!

Great job, Craig.

It's amazing to see how well the PB13-Ultra stacks up to the Fathom. I did think it would be great competition, but I didn't expect it to out-do the Fathom! Definitely a surprise, but not a shock. SVS has always tried to raise the bar and it's clear that they did, this time, with the PB13-Ultra.

I knew that there was no subtlety about the sound of the PB13-Ultra when compared to the TV-12 Driver. Tom and Ron assured me (and everyone else) that it wasn't just a simple upgrade and now we have more evidence that this is indeed a reality! I know my wife gets somewhat sick of me continuously testing the sub out when I get home from work, playing the same scenes over and over again, but definitely can appreciate the difference in the quality between the previous PC-Ultra and the PB13-Ultra subs.

109 points? Amazing... Especially considering that the PB12-Ultra only got 90 points in your ranking. 19 point difference. That's saying a lot right there.

Keep up the great work! I look forward to seeing your results of the rest of the subs you have in line to test.

Can we stop the thread jacking for a few hours?

Sherv ... Quoting used amp prices and drivers which are no longer made is SO you ... :rolleyes:

It could even be said to be ... laughable.

And I know some people will not like this, but the Ultra did not fare so well just because it was so loud.

One of the most overlooked aspects of subwoofer performance is how one does at low levels.

Can we stop the thread jacking for a few hours?

Heres my graph and it has no smoothing and no eq or filtering whatsoever :p:)
and 126++ db at 18 hertz and hopefully tomorrow ill break 130 db at 18 hertz in room.:p


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/subingncali/3a596ceb.jpg

Sherv ... Quoting used amp prices and drivers which are no longer made is SO you ... :rolleyes:



His is still DIY and I bet you can still find them somewhere if not just throw in some FI audio q's and It should be just as good if not better :)

Ported AV15, 500W bash amp, Single 6" flared port, tuned to 16hz:
http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/5677/2104732620037002257S500x500Q85.jpghttp://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/4141/2260441580037002257S500x500Q85.jpg





Do you have the FR graph of this sub and what kind of db levels did it reach also how did you get the finish, pm me with the details but sharing how you got that finish should benefit more then just me :D

Sherv ... Quoting used amp prices and drivers which are no longer made is SO you ... :rolleyes:

It could even be said to be ... laughable.

And I know some people will not like this, but the Ultra did not fare so well just because it was so loud.

One of the most overlooked aspects of subwoofer performance is how one does at low levels.

Not sure why the rolling eyes or the "laughable" / "SO you" comments craig....uncalled for sure.

There is nothing "so you" or "laughable" about getting used or discountinued equipment in the DIY market......where else would one find a crown K2 or CE4000? an Avalanche driver or TC2k / LMS5400?

from a guy who was called "SVS fanboy" in years past, i'm extremely pleased to see the PB13 do so well in your SQ listening tests. But this is supposed to mean what exactly? that you dont think an SDX LLT with good power (take your pick) will match it in SQ?

must have touched a nerve today, huh? sorry for the hijack, so I'm out.

Heres my graph and it has no smoothing and no eq or filtering whatsoever :p:)
and 126++ db at 18 hertz and hopefully tomorrow ill break 130 db at 18 hertz in room.:p


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/subingncali/3a596ceb.jpg

Iggster, as you are into car audio, we know you must venture outside.

Take your magic 130 dB box outside, and run an 18 Hz sinewave. Place a calibrated microphone and measuring system 2 meters from the front baffle.

Get back to us with the results, ok ? :)

Heres my graph and it has no smoothing and no eq or filtering whatsoever :p:)
and 126++ db at 18 hertz and hopefully tomorrow ill break 130 db at 18 hertz in room.:p


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/subingncali/3a596ceb.jpg

126dB with 100% THD is useless. :p

Iggster, as you are into car audio, we know you must venture outside.

Take your magic 130 dB box outside, and run an 18 Hz sinewave. Place a calibrated microphone and measuring system 2 meters from the front baffle.

Get back to us with the results, ok ? :)

but in the end doesn't what matter is what it does in your room? just look at how flat it is :cool: and it has no bs processing applied to it or eq, well I do have a subsonic filter at 45 hertz so it cuts off after that but without it its pretty flat to about 100 hertz. You do know the cleanest signal is kept untouched right craig? Why do you think people choose room treatment over eq?

PS I do venture outside but the only meter I have is a termlab meter and my readins will be about 6 or so db down since that meter gets your top 5 loudest frequencies and then averages them over 2-3 seconds. So it takes a good 3 seconds tone for it just to get out of 0.00 db. Now if someone local wants to meter it and if audiopulse/tc is releasing again ill do it :) just incase it goes caboom :)

Not sure why the rolling eyes or the "laughable" / "SO you" comments craig....uncalled for sure.

There is nothing "so you" or "laughable" about getting used or discountinued equipment in the DIY market......where else would one find a crown K2 or CE4000? an Avalanche driver or TC2k / LMS5400?

from a guy who was called "SVS fanboy" in years past, i'm extremely pleased to see the PB13 do so well in your SQ listening tests. But this is supposed to mean what exactly? that you dont think an SDX LLT with good power (take your pick) will match it in SQ?

must have touched a nerve today, huh? sorry for the hijack, so I'm out.

Sherv ... You are comparing used DIY pricing on amps and drivers which are no longer made against new subs, and don't find that unreasonable ? Sorry if using your word "laughable" bugged you ... it is rather condescending, isn't it ? ;)

There will never be an SDX-LLT. There is no such thing as an LLT. However, an SDX-15 in a 10 cubic foot EBS alignment would make for an interesting comparison to the new Ultra.

The Parts Express amp for $350 and the SDX-15 for $290 make for a real world DIY package complete with a warranty.

A guy can call both companies Monday and have product at the end of the week. $640 plus enclosure vs. the SVS. THAT would be an interesting comparo.

You don't need to check out, Sherv. Just treat both sides fair.:)

but in the end doesn't what matter is what it does in your room? just look at how flat it is :cool: and it has no bs processing applied to it or eq, well I do have a subsonic filter at 45 hertz so it cuts off after that but without it its pretty flat to about 100 hertz. You do know the cleanest signal is kept untouched right craig? Why do you think people choose room treatment over eq?

PS I do venture outside but the only meter I have is a termlab meter and my readins will be about 6 or so db down since that meter gets your top 5 loudest frequencies and then averages them over 2-3 seconds. So it takes a good 3 seconds tone for it just to get out of 0.00 db. Now if someone local wants to meter it and if audiopulse/tc is releasing again ill do it :) just incase it goes caboom :)

If it takes the top 5 loudest frequencies and averages them over 2-3 seconds, how do you know what it is doing at 18 Hz?

there are more than enough parts out there to beat DUAL SVS PB13's for $1500.....

Drivers: Ficaraudio, Soundsplinter, SDX, TCsounds, etc, etc, etc.
Amps: Ep2500, used Crown K2's, CE4000's, QSC PLX's, etc, etc, etc.
Enclosure: from Sealed, to Ported, to LLT.

Rather than picking "cream of the crop" examples, I can use just a couple of mine:

Ported AV15, 500W bash amp, Single 6" flared port, tuned to 16hz:
http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/5677/2104732620037002257S500x500Q85.jpghttp://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/4141/2260441580037002257S500x500Q85.jpg
http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/10015/2119339020037002257S500x500Q85.jpghttp://inlinethumb63.webshots.com/4670/2007752410037002257S500x500Q85.jpg

Total price (including rosewood veneer finish):: $600~$700
Performance: somewhere close to an PB12-Ultra/2......other member's comments:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=246452&postcount=167
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=246758&postcount=198



As for obliterating it for $1500, you can build numerous subs, including a single sonosub:

Large Low Tuned EBS, Avalanche 18" XBL^2 driver, Crown K2 amp, tuned to 12.4hz:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/ssabripo/DIY%20Ava18%20subs/ava18subs001.jpg
one of the above can hit 120dB's at seat without breaking a sweat, and it's normalized FR looks like:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/ssabripo/AVA18%20measurements/1steq_try.jpg




Numerous other examples from MANY others.....Arthur (TheEar) was a commercial enthusiast (and still is), and less than 9 months ago was in the camp that DIY would have a tough time keeping up subs like the fathom....couple of TC sound drivers and some wood and decent power, and his tuned has changed quite dramatically, as have most who venture into this arena, yours truly included.

That the Fathom is a great sub, is agreed.
That the new PB13 has raised the bar, is agreed
That the new Epik subs will probably be kings, is agreed.

that DIY will have " a tough time keeping up with the performance and look" of these aforementioned subs? laughable!


My plan worked perfectly :), I still want to DIY and it's been hell trying to find the uber designs that can be done on the cheap. Make one comment the research comes to you... Thank you everyone...

That was part of but I didn't mean it like it came out... sorry everyone. I know what DIY can. Hell most of these companies were started by DIY'rs

Sherv ... You are comparing used DIY pricing on amps and drivers which are no longer made against new subs, and don't find that unreasonable ?

There will never be an SDX-LLT. There is no such thing as an LLT. However, an SDX-15 in a 10 cubic foot EBS alignment would make for an interesting comparison to the new Ultra.

The Parts Express amp for $350 and the SDX-15 for $290 make for a real world DIY package complete with a warranty.

A guy can call both companies Monday and have product at the end of the week. $640 plus enclosure vs. the SVS. THAT would be an interesting comparo.

You don't need to check out, Sherv. Just treat both sides fair.:)

I'm not comparing "used" or "new" craig............if you like, I can stick with brand spanking new ;)

will a ficaruadio Q18, fresh of the factory floor, delivered to your door by the end of the week, for $318 be good enough? How about a brand new EP2500 for $265 by wednesday?

But what's unreasonable about wanting to buy a used crown k2 again? or an avalanche 18? I completely agree with you by the way, that a brand new SDX15 and amp from PE can also be had and would be tremendous........don't see where the disagreement is here. perhaps I missed it.

anyways, didn't mean to take your thread on a tangent there. I'll leave this topic out of your thread.

Its impressive with what SVS did in that size of an enclosure.... sure, you could buy 2 CDXs, an EP2500, a BFD, some MDF, spend about $1100-1200.. apply a broad low-end slight boost, and you might almost hit 114 dB at 15hz at 2 meters....

But the friggin box would be 20 cubic feet! That is monsterous!

If it takes the top 5 loudest frequencies and averages them over 2-3 seconds, how do you know what it is doing at 18 Hz?

Cause I play a 18 hertz test tone and just let her rip and get er done :p now if it is doing more then that at 18 hertz which it most likely is I have no problem with that but the rest of the top 5 frequencies are probably coming from the house shaking and stuff, thus the reason why doing it outdoors will most likely yield terrible numbers with the termlab.

(edit its top 3 frequencies)

Its impressive with what SVS did in that size of an enclosure.... sure, you could buy 2 CDXs, an EP2500, a BFD, some MDF, spend about $1100-1200.. apply a broad low-end slight boost, and you might almost hit 114 dB at 15hz at 2 meters....

But the friggin box would be 20 cubic feet! That is monsterous!

Pshhhh, my box is over 3000 cubic feet. :D

I have a question craig. The mic you are using have you tested it to see how much temperature/humidity affect the readings?

I remember when dbdrag would use the audio control 180 (looks like the behringher ecm8000) You can hit one show and then go to the next show the same day and not touch anything but just cause the temperature and altitude changed the reading would change 3+db thus the reason wayne came up with the termlab which is usually always withing .1 no matter the temperature or altitude.

I don't anything about the mic you are using but I wonder if the readings can be screwed when doing them outdoors at different times of the day? Now indoors I am sure you have climate control so it shouldn't change much.

What's with the I've got the biggest balls and can build the greatest sub attitude have to do with what this thread is about. If you're engaged in this behavior, you're just beating your chest and farting in the wind. No one has crowned any product the master of the universe. DIY certainly is an option, but not for everyone...we've heard all this crap before...not the good information, how to build or model a killer sub (in the appropriate thread), but the condesending attitude that us retail junkies just don't get it. We get it...we'd join you if we wanted to and post on the DIY forum:mad:

I'm not comparing "used" or "new" craig............if you like, I can stick with brand spanking new ;)

will a ficaruadio Q18, fresh of the factory floor, delivered to your door by the end of the week, for $318 be good enough? How about a brand new EP2500 for $265 by wednesday?

But what's unreasonable about wanting to buy a used crown k2 again? or an avalanche 18? I completely agree with you by the way, that a brand new SDX15 and amp from PE can also be had and would be tremendous........don't see where the disagreement is here. perhaps I missed it.

anyways, didn't mean to take your thread on a tangent there. I'll leave this topic out of your thread.

Sherv, speaking factually, you used 2 examples with drivers no one can get, and a used amp in one.

In the mean time, I have already been posting ideas about a real world sub I would like to build ... and SDX-15, PE Amp and a Baltic Birch enclosure.

This would be stainable, and therefore might actually look good inside one's home.

The predicted output on this SDX-15 project is as follows (AVTalk's recorded #'s on the Ultra in parentheses):

15 Hz - 107 dB (102.5 dB)
20 Hz - 109 dB (107 dB)
25 Hz - 109.5 dB (109 dB)
30 Hz and up both @ 110 dB

The Parts express amp sound better than the EP-2500. Having both helps.

Which will sound better and perform better in a real room ? I want to find out first hand.

As I mentioned earlier, I will see if I can get an enclosure put together and run some tests.

Adding to that test will likely be the Castle @ $999 ... With a claimed peak to peak of 3 inches, that pretty much matches the peak to peak of the SDX-15.

There will be more testing, and on stuff people can buy today. :)

I have a question craig. The mic you are using have you tested it to see how much temperature/humidity affect the readings?

I remember when dbdrag would use the audio control 180 (looks like the behringher ecm8000) You can hit one show and then go to the next show the same day and not touch anything but just cause the temperature and altitude changed the reading would change 3+db thus the reason wayne came up with the termlab which is usually always withing .1 no matter the temperature or altitude.

I don't anything about the mic you are using but I wonder if the readings can be screwed when doing them outdoors at different times of the day? Now indoors I am sure you have climate control so it shouldn't change much.

I use a Goldline Tef-04 microphone which is calibrated before each session with an ACO Pacific 511E calibrator.

Sound card is an M-Audio Mobile pre.

All this max spl stuff is interesting, but I have to wonder how it relates to watching a movie in your home theater.

If you're running your mains at 75dbs, just how loud would you want to be able to go with your sub? This presumes that you're running your mains and sub at the same level.

Don't you eventually get to the point that unless you're running your sub 15dbs hot that you've got excess capacity that you're not going to use?

All this max spl stuff is interesting, but I have to wonder how it relates to watching a movie in your home theater.

If you're running your mains at 75dbs, just how loud would you want to be able to go with your sub? This presumes that you're running your mains and sub at the same level.

Don't you eventually get to the point that unless you're running your sub 15dbs hot that you've got excess capacity that you're not going to use?

You are correct ... Although it is impossible to have too much headroom, focusing on output over all other areas is a mistake.

One reason the Ultra did so well is how it handles bass microdynamics.

While watching "Prison Break" last night, There was a scene in which a fighter jet flew over ... the Ultra started with a very low level, but visceral rolling bass that did nothing but get louder as the jet approached.

Trying the same scene on the DIY sub yielded bass that was not apparent until several seconds later in the scene.

There are a lot of audibly superior aspects to the new Ultra that measurements won't demonstrate.

When do you think you will be testing some of the products from Epik Craig? I really would like to see numbers on the Conquest and the Tower if possible as well as one of their sealed subs. This Battle is getting really interesting.

Doom ... I know Chad is running in 12 directions, but hopefully I will hear from him this week. I definitely want to test a Valor, Castle and Conquest.

We have had a few email exchanges, and he is looking forward to getting some product here. Those who have talked to him know his passion for the subwoofer world.

What's with the I've got the biggest balls and can build the greatest sub attitude have to do with what this thread is about. If you're engaged in this behavior, you're just beating your chest and farting in the wind. No one has crowned any product the master of the universe. DIY certainly is an option, but not for everyone...we've heard all this crap before...not the good information, how to build or model a killer sub (in the appropriate thread), but the condesending attitude that us retail junkies just don't get it. We get it...we'd join you if we wanted to and post on the DIY forum

A sub is a sub, if you buy it or if you build it, its still a sub and warrants a place on the list. Craig built a DIY sub that KICKED ASS and it proves DIY should belong in ANY recommendation! Kuddos to the new PB13 too!!

DIY isnt meant to be kept out of the "secret Fathom handshake" club either. The only time DIY people become condesending is when someone posts that DIY can not do something, we simply post the scientific numbers behind the Subs. (IMO!!!) DIY designs like a IB is purely the ultimate design for SQ, low, lows, ultimate WAF and so on. IF a person can do a IB the it is the best sub choice, there is no question about that and its a FRACTION of what a Fathom costs. That isnt chest thumping that is pointing out a fact and I think it should be documented in the list for ANYONE NEW not knowing about the possibilities.

DIY is just another sub and should be included. We are all wanting great quality, low bass. Some actually have it others think they do ;)

Craig has done an incredible job with the list and I think its awesome he did do a DIY sub just to show where it actually stands in the mix.

The PB13 sounds incredible too, great but if someone wants to post that we can not do something similar in DIY for $1500 similar they should expect the DIY experts to show lots of choices for $1500. Are we a little over zealous and DIY fanboys too much? Of course, just like the Fathom fanboys but the difference is we did it with our hands and we did it all at such a low cost, the numbers dont lie.

Sorry if any DIY discussion pissed off anyone, I think it belongs here because after all it is a sub as much as the PB13 is a sub but that is just my opinion.


Of course this thread shouldnt be a DIY vs.....and it isnt in my opinion so lets move on and read more of Craig's results.

Sherv, speaking factually, you used 2 examples with drivers no one can get, and a used amp in one.

In the mean time, I have already been posting ideas about a real world sub I would like to build ... and SDX-15, PE Amp and a Baltic Birch enclosure.
understood.

and I posted examples of what I would do (or anyone can do) should I had started to design something today. for example:
http://cgi.*********/CROWN-K2-K-2-2500-Watt-Power-Amplifier-Amp-EXC_W0QQitemZ180160010595QQihZ008QQcategoryZ64451QQssPageNam eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I personally would not use the PE amp, nor the EP2500... I personally would go with better power. This is a personal choice of course.

But understood.



The predicted output on this SDX-15 project is as follows (AVTalk's recorded #'s on the Ultra in parentheses):

15 Hz - 107 dB (102.5 dB)
20 Hz - 109 dB (107 dB)
25 Hz - 109.5 dB (109 dB)
30 Hz and up both @ 110 dB
very nice. I assume you are including DEQ2496 L/T boost with that, yes? are you shelving at L12 or L6?


The Parts express amp sound better than the EP-2500. Having both helps.
interesting.



Which will sound better and perform better in a real room ? I want to find out first hand.

As I mentioned earlier, I will see if I can get an enclosure put together and run some tests.
that would be interesting, yes.


Adding to that test will likely be the Castle @ $999 ... With a claimed peak to peak of 3 inches, that pretty much matches the peak to peak of the SDX-15.

There will be more testing, and on stuff people can buy today. :)
you and I both! :D I cannot wait to see what these Epik Subs do in terms of SQ.

Penngray ... Excellent post. The only area where the DIY crowd actually annoys me is when some 21 year old living in a bedroom in his parent's place challenges the manhood of a 35 year old father of 3 whose wife won't permit a 12 cubic foot monolith into her house.

The 35 year old is a real man, and real men understand being nice to one's wife, in terms of her decor.

My wife deserves a medal for putting up with my devotion .. scratch that ... ADDICTION .. to subwoofers.

And SHERV ... you should add the cost of jewelry (into your system cost) you owe YOUR wife for allowing those smokestacks into her family room ... :D

Disclaimer ... If you are a nice 21 year old living in a bedroom at your parent's place, this post does not necessarily mean you ... :eek::cool::)

I just ordered an SVS based on the ranking, and if needed I'll probably get a second and be done with subs for a long long while

I'm not quite as pumped about the Epik line anymore because of the Ultra's high score, I just can't go any bigger or heavier in fact I'm gonna look about getting a nice dolly to help with the Ultra and I'l probably have to slip the delivery guys a few bucks to unbox it and place if for me (back issues)

the photo in Craigsub's room showed the Ultra as appearing very unobtrusive, maybe because it was next to the much bigger DIY but my spouse saw it and didn't give me a hard time, rounded corners always seem to bump the waf automatically

It would appear that SVS has nailed the price/performance/waf combo and I congratulate them, Craigsub I thank you for all your time and money spent, you have saved me time and money, I was contemplating a second Fathom for the living room (didn't really want to spend the $$$) and a HSU for the bedroom (very low waf)

problem solved, sub quest if finished

Congrats to Craig for an excellent "review" of the SVS and other subs. I really enjoy reading threads like this one to see what's new out there and how it compares to "older" subs. I must hand it to SVS also, they've built a hell of a product for $1500.

I don't have any buyer's remorse for buying twin F113s. To me, the SVS and other monster-boxes are just not appropriate for my room (Rives design that is under construction as mainly a 2-channel room with 6.1 surround) and I don't find them attractive at all - which may not matter to some people. To me, the sound of a sealed sub is best, but I appreciate that other people have their opinions including Craig who is probably one of the least biased guys out there.
It's no surprise that there are subs that can play louder, deeper, and possibly "better" than the Fathom, but when they can build it in a box the size and appearance of the Fathom for less money then I'll be really impressed. That being said, if I were to move to a different house with a larger listening room then I'd surely have to consider getting a 4-pack of those SVS 13s for the LFE!

Penngray ... Excellent post. The only area where the DIY crowd actually annoys me is when some 21 year old living in a bedroom in his parent's place challenges the manhood of a 35 year old father of 3 whose wife won't permit a 12 cubic foot monolith into her house.



Well since I am "diy crowd" ill guess this is directed at me or all us diy guys, Myself I live in a 2 bedroom house with my girl and my son im 26 not 21 :p we have outgrown it so we are getting a bigger house :)

Oh ya we both have vettes ;) mines isn't stock, also the explorer in the background is my spl ride and the naked kid is my son :p

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/subingncali/338f1f7e.jpg

Sherv ... I forgot to answer your question ... The numbers I posted are not EQ relevant. They are the predicted output levels of the Creative Sounds sub in WIN ISD PRO ...

Well since I am "diy crowd" ill guess this is directed at me or all us diy guys, Myself I live in a 2 bedroom house with my girl and my son im 26 not 21 :p we have outgrown it so we are getting a bigger house :)

Oh ya we both have vettes ;) mines isn't stock, also the explorer in the background is my spl ride and the naked kid is my son :p



Ok ... TWO things about the DIY crowd that can be annoying. Lack of reading comprehension is the other. ;)

Only from that community could someone take a comment about a 21 year old living in his parent's bedroom and turn it into it being directed at him, a 26 year old living in his own house.

Iggster ... no, I was not talking about you. :rolleyes:

Congrats to Craig for an excellent "review" of the SVS and other subs. I really enjoy reading threads like this one to see what's new out there and how it compares to "older" subs. I must hand it to SVS also, they've built a hell of a product for $1500.

I don't have any buyer's remorse for buying twin F113s. To me, the SVS and other monster-boxes are just not appropriate for my room (Rives design that is under construction as mainly a 2-channel room with 6.1 surround) and I don't find them attractive at all - which may not matter to some people. To me, the sound of a sealed sub is best, but I appreciate that other people have their opinions including Craig who is probably one of the least biased guys out there.
It's no surprise that there are subs that can play louder, deeper, and possibly "better" than the Fathom, but when they can build it in a box the size and appearance of the Fathom for less money then I'll be really impressed. That being said, if I were to move to a different house with a larger listening room then I'd surely have to consider getting a 4-pack of those SVS 13s for the LFE!

Great point... There are different strokes for different folks. I have been real satisifed with the Fathom F113 and appreciate the compact footprint.

With that said, Craig's review has really piqued my interest. If it wasn't for a newborn coming on the way, I would have bought a SVS Ultra 13 just to hear for myself.

Ok ... TWO things about the DIY crowd that can be annoying. Lack of reading comprehension is the other.

Only from that community could someone take a comment about a 21 year old living in his parent's bedroom and turn it into it being directed at him, a 26 year old living in his own house.

Ok so if it wasnt me you were talking about then who was it? which 21 year old who lives in the bedroom of the parents house was it? You shouldn't really make fun of others status, you should just come right out and say who it was.

I'm not quite as pumped about the Epik line anymore because of the Ultra's high score, I just can't go any bigger or heavier...
Perhaps Epik's smaller sealed subs will be "Fathom-like" in performance?

If so, a pair of them should do quite nicely.

Ok so if it wasnt me you were taking about then who was it? which 21 year old who lives in the bedroom of the parents house was it? You shouldn't really make fun of others status, you should just come right out and say who it was.

Iggster, it was an example, and it happened. I am not going to drag one individual into this.

However, I was not making fun of another's status. That person was making fun of guys who are homeowners, husbands and fathers as "not being real men" because they consider their wive's decor concerns when purchasing a sub.

I don't care if someone lives in his parent's home, Iggster.

I DO care, however, when that person decides to make fun of a man who is trying to do the best he can to get good bass and marital bliss to co-exist.

I agree Bogg, the SVS is not "quite" as attractive,the JL subs are things of beauty, and a pair without the grills looks like pure art, they are after all car audio guys and that scene has it all over the home scene when it comes to looks, anyone that doubts that just needs to take a trip to SEMA

of course I still have yet to actually see or hear the Ultra, but it would appear to fit in quite nicely in most decors

again, the market has so many niches right now that all these new designs have a place

SoundsGood, I'm sure the Epik line will be killer but my quest is now over

there will always be something new on the horizon, I think the Ultra will satisfy me for a long time

Bogg and DLF ... You are right, the Fathom is just plain gorgeous, and can deliver amazing performance in a space many subs won't fit.

Is it expensive ? Yes.

Is it worth it ? To the man who has made himself successful professional and wants world class bass without having to look at this (the one on the right .. lol):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2040.jpg

Yes, it is worth it. :)

To others, looking at the Big DIY project and thinking: "Wow, I can get superior overall performance for less money than a Fathom, and just have to have a big box in my room" ...

Is the big box worth it to THAT guy ? Yes.

All I am trying to do with these tests is present information. The reason price and size don't factor into scoring is we EACH have priorities. Personally, I don't care HOW big a subwoofer is, nor what it looks like.

My wife, on the other hand, loves decorating.

My subwoofers are her decor enemy. We both know that, and laugh about it.

Ok ... I laugh about it, she rolls her eyes.

But ... in the end, we work it out together.

To go from 103 to 109 points is about a 30 percent improvement overall.

so what percent improvement is going from 83 points (SVS PB-10) to 109 points (PB-13Ultra)? i'm guessing that from about 3x the cost of a PB-10, you're getting more than that back in performance with the ultra?

wow.

so what percent improvement is going from 83 points (SVS PB-10) to 109 points (PB-13Ultra)? i'm guessing that from about 3x the cost of a PB-10, you're getting more than that back in performance with the ultra?

wow.

GREAT question ... The new Ultra, taking the points system into account, is showing to have 4 times the performance of the PB10.

The Ultra delivers about the same SPL as do 4 PB-10's (Ilkka had the PB10 @ 97 dB @ 20 Hz vs. AV Talk's 107 for the Ultra, with the fact that Ilkka's tests are about 2 dB louder than AV Talk's due to differing microphone placements, we are looking at appx. 12 dB) in the deep bass regions.

The Ultra also sounds much better, and hits deeper.

You could take 4 PB-10's, and the new Ultra would still make for a better sounding system, IMO.

Great commentary on the Ultra Craig. :) Sure looks like SVS has hit a home run. Now I'm even more motivated to get together with PBC, the Bogg and a couple of others to do a direct listening comparison between the Ultra and the Fathom. Maybe next weekend if we can get our schedules right.

Craig,
Are you ever going to test a Submersive? That would be interesting. I am interested in the a7-900 results as well.

The 35 year old is a real man, and real men understand being nice to one's wife, in terms of her decor.


lol, Im 38...Just built a new house last year. Comments about AV equipment/speakers and sub in family room from my wife where simple.....NO WIRES, NO SPEAKERS, EVERYTHING MUST BE HIDDEN or atleast fit into a built-in cabinet (I won that battle).

She would disagree with anyone that says any sub looks great and actually I now feel the same way, yeah they look "guy cool" but do they fit a certain types of rooms? Not at all. Also when you have a 9 month old that will pull and poke everything its nice to know I wont have an expensive piece of equipment damaged. :D

The reason price and size don't factor into scoring is we EACH have priorities.

Thats actually a good thing, the numbers speak for themselves we can all research those subs and decide what $$$ and look we all like.

This is not a "knock" on either ... we don't even know for sure yet what the TC-2000 will sell for. But it is certain that SVS has delivered a product that delivers both fantastic objective AND subjective performance for a very reasonable entry fee.
__________________

Having been on both sides of the issue, me thinks so to. Depending on a guys priorities, both are stellar options imo. That being said, it's very impressive what SVS has achieved here. It appears to be a far cry (in a sense) than past offerings, although they be respectable in their own rite considering the parameters they're constrained to.

Nice job Craig. I've been sort of side-tracked and lost track of this Thread, but I can see things are moving forward with high marks going to the new Ultra-13. The Ultra seems to be achieving a level of performance that I honestly hadn't counted on. I did expect it to do well of course, but what Tom has done with a 13" driver is.. well I'll wait for the rest of the story (looking good though). I have read enough to know that my next sub wont be a DIY.:o All my blades and bits are wore out:p
But the friggin box would be 20 cubic feet! That is monsterous!
No doubt!.. it's deffinitly a handfull:)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/stevenn/100_1482.jpg

I'd like to see SVS put together a "sealed" version of the Ultra :)
Using a smaller enclosure for us with space challenged listening rooms who are looking for something that performs like a f113 but cost much less.
And to accommodate us "stackers" out there.

Also I'm wondering how the PC13U compares to the PB13U?

dc

Dream, the PC and the PB are similar with a 1-2 dB lead to the PB series simply because of enclosure space.

As for a "Sealed" version of the Ultra, they likely won't do, especially when you can put the current Ultras into "Sealed" tuning mode. Yes, the output yields different numbers, but they likely put A LOT of thought into making it so they could put the sub into a "Sealed" mode...

I'm sure the guys at SVS have spent a lot of time thinking of how big/small they can make the subs in order to yield their current performance.

These things aren't small by any stretch, but they are a real bargain and look absolutely beautiful (to some of us)!

Overall, the Ultra gets a 57 on Home Theater and a 52 on music, for a 109.

Based on this I will definitely order one and give my opinion. I was bitterly disappointed in the PB12NSD musically compared to both my EP500 and VTF3MK2. By the sound of what you are saying SVS might have finally found the right combination that answers the poor musicality it had in previous models.:)

John

Craig,
Are you ever going to test a Submersive? That would be interesting. I am interested in the a7-900 results as well.

I would like to see the results on the Submersive also.

Where did I say that the SVS wasn't displaying any compression with the 110dB sweep? :)

Here's what I said: "Also the AV Talk numbers for the new Ultra aren't showing the absolute max output since they didn't take higher than "110 dB" sweep. It didn't have much compression there so I'm pretty sure it could have gone even higher."

Just for the record, we did take the higher sweep. As Ed said, the fuse blew. :cool:

And I know some people will not like this, but the Ultra did not fare so well just because it was so loud.

One of the most overlooked aspects of subwoofer performance is how one does at low levels.
Good news for guys like me... that do not crank the volume up all the time.

Well since I am "diy crowd" ill guess this is directed at me or all us diy guys, Myself I live in a 2 bedroom house with my girl and my son im 26 not 21 we have outgrown it so we are getting a bigger house

Oh ya we both have vettes mines isn't stock, also the explorer in the background is my spl ride and the naked kid is my son


26, your profile says 28 and for a stay at home dad your wife must make some big bucks.

...with the fact that Ilkka's tests are about 2 dB louder than AV Talk's due to differing microphone placements...
Sorry but I don't agree. They both use the same microphone placement for front firers as the PB10 and PB13-Ultra.

If you look at a couple same subs they have measured, it certainly doesn't seem that there would be much difference.


BK Monolith-DF
Ilkka AV Talk
20 99 99
30 104 103
40 104.5 104
50 104.5 105
60 104 105



BK XLS200-DF
Ilkka AV Talk
20 87.5 88
30 94.5 95
40 98 99.5
50 101 102
60 102 103


Back to your scheduled program. :)

craig, you've mentioned the stand up bass a few times. can you recommend any good cd's or dvd's with some nice stand up bass ?

the only time i ever saw one was in yanni's live at the acropolis. yanni is a joke but some his musicians are true virtuosos who use world class instruments and it's well recorded

in one of the slower songs (don't laugh), the bassist switches over to a stand up bass and there is this one close-up of him plucking the strings and it's so cool watching the strings vibrate as you feel and experience the deep beautiful bass notes simultaneously

@otk
LoL
Sorry i had to do it. :D
On that note, i've heard a few enya songs that have great bass lines as well.

also, i'm really curious, when will the a7-900 get tested, i thought that was supposed to happen today.

Just for the record, we did take the higher sweep. As Ed said, the fuse blew. :cool:
Thanks for the info. With regular program material this won't probably ever happen though.

Based on this I will definitely order one and give my opinion. I was bitterly disappointed in the PB12NSD musically compared to both my EP500 and VTF3MK2. By the sound of what you are saying SVS might have finally found the right combination that answers the poor musicality it had in previous models.:)

John

That in particular is what I would like to investigate further, especially seeing how the new Ultra is 30% better than the next comparable sub :D.

Flattening FR was a critical step in obtaining reference level performance and obtaining nuanced sound reproduction. It looks like the notorious SVS mid bass humped response is now history so the reports of better articulation and micro-dynamics make sense. Still that attribute alone does not make any sub superior for music applications.

Better score for musicality would also imply superior transient and phase response with lower distortion above resonant frequency than a comparable sealed sub. The JL113 and the Velo DD-18 are both reference quality sealed subs with exceptional performance in those areas. To have a better musical score than those subs implies a tighter bass sound with better performance in those important "musical" parameters. Very tough to do with any vented alignment where the vent provides the added output but also introduces other issues compared to any sealed sub, but I remain open minded pending more data and my own listening comparisons. It would be neat if the new Ultra was a breakthrough in design of vented alignments.

As mentioned earlier, CEA2010 distortion weighted output is more indicative of HT performance than raw output numbers at certain frequencies. That statistic should also be considered when guaging relative performance for HT applications.

also, i'm really curious, when will the a7-900 get tested, i thought that was supposed to happen today.

The numbers have been run on the A7-900. I have not had the chance to listen to it in the same environment as the remaining subs, and won't get a final result until this task is complete.

Moving a 435 pound beast is not the easiest task.

CRAIG,

how low were u able to push the Ultra? I'm asking since TOm V told me a year ago that ref. level close to 10 Hz would be several $,$$$!

check your PMs...

spelling corrected.

CRAIG,

how low were u able to push the Ultra? I'm asking since TOm V told me a year ago that ref. level close to 10 Hz would be several $,$$$!

check your PMs...

Tom is right ... the Ultra managed about 90 dB in the AVTalk test, @ 10 Hz, in the single port, 10 Hz tuning option.

Reference would require at least 8 Ultras in a typical room.

The good news, 10 Hz is not really required for a proper theater/music experience. :)

Based on this I will definitely order one and give my opinion. I was bitterly disappointed in the PB12NSD musically compared to both my EP500 and VTF3MK2. By the sound of what you are saying SVS might have finally found the right combination that answers the poor musicality it had in previous models.:)

John
Hi John. It is rather interesting that you too found the SVS PB12-NSD lacking musically. The PB10-NSD was a little better musically BUT the PB12-NSD flat out kicks a$$ with respect to ht applications. Personally, I found the Mirage S12 12" sub much better with music and about equal to the PB10-NSD when watching dvds. Therefore, the Mirage S12 imho is better with music and the PB12-NSD was significantly better for ht. It goes w/o saying the Mirage S12 seemed to give a better balance over-all between the two extremes. It is good to see there are others here that have drawn the same or nearly the same conclusion(s).

That in particular is what I would like to investigate further, especially seeing how the new Ultra is 30% better than the next comparable sub :D.

Flattening FR was a critical step in obtaining reference level performance and obtaining nuanced sound reproduction. It looks like the notorious SVS mid bass humped response is now history so the reports of better articulation and micro-dynamics make sense. Still that attribute alone does not make any sub superior for music applications.

Better score for musicality would also imply superior transient and phase response with lower distortion above resonant frequency than a comparable sealed sub. The JL113 and the Velo DD-18 are both reference quality sealed subs with exceptional performance in those areas. To have a better musical score than those subs implies a tighter bass sound with better performance in those important "musical" parameters. Very tough to do with any vented alignment where the vent provides the added output but also introduces other issues compared to any sealed sub, but I remain open minded pending more data and my own listening comparisons. It would be neat if the new Ultra was a breakthrough in design of vented alignments.

As mentioned earlier, CEA2010 distortion weighted output is more indicative of HT performance than raw output numbers at certain frequencies. That statistic should also be considered when guaging relative performance for HT applications.
John, you summed things up quite well. As such, perhaps you may want to look into the Rythmik diy sealed design kits. There is a 12" version as well as a 15" version. It is my understanding the 12" version is a bit more musical whereas the 15" will give you an extra 4-5 db of output down low. You may already be aware of Ryhthmik but just in case I thought why not bring it to your attention.

Tom is right ... the Ultra managed about 90 dB in the AVTalk test, @ 10 Hz, in the single port, 10 Hz tuning option.

Reference would require at least 8 Ultras in a typical room.

The good news, 10 Hz is not really required for a proper theater/music experience. :)

does the ultra lose any of it's musical skills in 10hz mode?

John, you summed things up quite well. As such, perhaps you may want to look into the Rythmik diy sealed design kits. There is a 12" version as well as a 15" version. It is my understanding the 12" version is a bit more musical whereas the 15" will give you an extra 4-5 db of output down low. You may already be aware of Ryhthmik but just in case I thought why not bring it to your attention.

Thanks for that. I actually spent a while emailing and exchanging PMs with Brian a year ago when he was putting the finishing touches on the 15" servo sealed design. Very impressive guy to say the least and his obsession for quality audiophile bass shines through. His DIY kits are outstanding buys. I heard the 12" version and its sound quality was jaw dropping for a $429 kit. His ideas influenced me to go an all sealed multi sub solution in my HT which now consists of a JL113 and 2 Velo 18"s. Output is not an issue.

LOL at the agitation since Craig proclaimed the new Ultra a world beater...the 109 score! :p

The new Ultra13 30% better compared to a Fathom f113.....

My estimates...

The new Ultra13 for sure has a solid 6dB more output down deep,the ports do add...any sealed will pay the price output wise,be it Fathom,SubMersive or ...name them.

Better on music,the minute difference relates to the extension,output down deep advantage.

Considering it is priced at roughly half the full retail of a Fathom f113 yes it is more than 30% a better buy.

But sound quality,the Fathom is way up there among the elite,so...the main difference must come for higher max output and better linearity even at very high output.All sealed will have a gentle rolloff.

I am still not thowing myself out the window...I will only have to buy dual SVS Ultras.

Price to price SVS has an outstanding product.DIY is mostly for those who want sicko output from gigantic subs(count me in).No reason to even try and beat a mid sized ported (SVS Ultra13)or compact sealed(JL f113).
Besting these can only be costly(under the same size)and not provide more performance.

LOL at the agitation since Craig proclaimed the new Ultra a world beater...the 109 score! :p

The new Ultra13 30% better compared to a Fathom f113.....

My estimates...

The new Ultra13 for sure has a solid 6dB more output down deep,the ports do add...any sealed will pay the price output wise,be it Fathom,SubMersive or ...name them.

Better on music,the minute difference relates to the extension,output down deep advantage.

Considering it is priced at roughly half the full retail of a Fathom f113 yes it is more than 30% a better buy.

But sound quality,the Fathom is way up there among the elite,so...the main difference must come for higher max output and better linearity even at very high output.All sealed will have a gentle rolloff.

I am still not thowing myself out the window...I will only have to buy dual SVS Ultras.

Price to price SVS has an outstanding product.DIY is mostly for those who want sicko output from gigantic subs(count me in).No reason to even try and beat a mid sized ported (SVS Ultra13)or compact sealed(JL f113).
Besting these can only be costly(under the same size)and not provide more performance.

The sky is falling!!! :D

I want to see the Epiks cause even more destruction.

Not much is falling,besides the priced from dealers who want full retail....:p

Now Epik needs to top Craig's list to cause even more agitation.With subs agitating air is good. :)

That in particular is what I would like to investigate further, especially seeing how the new Ultra is 30% better than the next comparable sub :D.

Flattening FR was a critical step in obtaining reference level performance and obtaining nuanced sound reproduction. It looks like the notorious SVS mid bass humped response is now history so the reports of better articulation and micro-dynamics make sense. Still that attribute alone does not make any sub superior for music applications.

Better score for musicality would also imply superior transient and phase response with lower distortion above resonant frequency than a comparable sealed sub. The JL113 and the Velo DD-18 are both reference quality sealed subs with exceptional performance in those areas. To have a better musical score than those subs implies a tighter bass sound with better performance in those important "musical" parameters. Very tough to do with any vented alignment where the vent provides the added output but also introduces other issues compared to any sealed sub, but I remain open minded pending more data and my own listening comparisons. It would be neat if the new Ultra was a breakthrough in design of vented alignments.

As mentioned earlier, CEA2010 distortion weighted output is more indicative of HT performance than raw output numbers at certain frequencies. That statistic should also be considered when guaging relative performance for HT applications.
I think its worth a listen based on Craigs obvious and very extensive sub experience. In comparison to some other vented subs both cheaper and more expensive I found the previous SVS subs far from tight with music, which was a great disappointment after reading all the raves on this forum. The trend on this forum seems to be a preoccupation with output and extension and little based on micro dynamics, tightness and tonality which are much needed for music accuracy.

John

so, when does the PB13-Ultra/2 come out ?

can you say "gotham killer" ?

:p

Does anyone have any experience with how the Revel Performa B15 stacks up against the Fathom F113, the Velodyne DD18 or the Ultra?

so, when does the PB13-Ultra/2 come out ?

can you say "gotham killer" ?

:p

Not really

You compare a product for a very niche segment,the Gotham built quality and looks still have the edge.Even throw 4 Ultra13 drivers in.

Does anyone have any experience with how the Revel Performa B15 stacks up against the Fathom F113, the Velodyne DD18 or the Ultra?

Quite well thank you,the B15 is very close SQ wise and output almost inline with the f113. ARO ...the B15 with its parametric EQ is also a great match for justa bout all buy the largest rooms.

I know I have a B15,the Fathom is more compact and is built better.

and now a little intermission brought to you by 6 trinitys :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HrhZ1-cPJE

LOL at the agitation since Craig proclaimed the new Ultra a world beater...the 109 score! :p

The new Ultra13 30% better compared to a Fathom f113.....

My estimates...

The new Ultra13 for sure has a solid 6dB more output down deep,the ports do add...any sealed will pay the price output wise,be it Fathom,SubMersive or ...name them.

Better on music,the minute difference relates to the extension,output down deep advantage.

Considering it is priced at roughly half the full retail of a Fathom f113 yes it is more than 30% a better buy.

But sound quality,the Fathom is way up there among the elite,so...the main difference must come for higher max output and better linearity even at very high output.All sealed will have a gentle rolloff.

I am still not thowing myself out the window...I will only have to buy dual SVS Ultras.

Price to price SVS has an outstanding product.DIY is mostly for those who want sicko output from gigantic subs(count me in).No reason to even try and beat a mid sized ported (SVS Ultra13)or compact sealed(JL f113).
Besting these can only be costly(under the same size)and not provide more performance.

I can't find the post tired of searching.

Does anyone know where it compares the F113 vs the PB13 or a post that details their score? I just see 50 vs 52 for music with no mention of sound quality stuff. Also, what port is it tuned in?

Something_Soft, the rating for 52/50 is for the F113 Fathom's score 52 being the Home Theater score and the 50 score being the Music score.

The PB13-Ultra scored a 57/52 which, according to this ranking system makes the sub 5 points higher than the Fathom in Home Theater applications and 2 points higher than the Fathom in Music.

This score includes the sound quality of each individual sub. Quickness, loudness (and even quietness), depth, clarity, among other things are considered when Craig is scoring the individual sub.

The port options for the sub are 20Hz, which is the native tuning point, then 15Hz, 10Hz, and Sealed.

Craig did the review from the stock 20Hz tuning point.

26, your profile says 28 and for a stay at home dad your wife must make some big bucks.

Ill fix the date later, I am gonna be 27 soon though :) lol and not only does she make ok money she also HOT, she's 130lbs 5foot 6 and about 34-26-36 measurements :D I also work but mostly doing side jobs Like mechanic work on friends car's or people who want a car fixed or a car stereo installed and now I am stepping into HT :o but most of my know how is car stereo's and subwoofers box's and then cars in general :) The explorer in the picture runs 13.3's all day long and has 180 shot of nitrous with a cobra short block and ported heads and other little doo dads now just imagine what the vette does :cool:

Hey craig so when are you gonna post some wotw of the big ed sub? I really really cant wait to see those results and the svs has impressed me allot also, I was this close to buying one before I build my sub.

Something_Soft, the rating for 52/50 is for the F113 Fathom's score 52 being the Home Theater score and the 50 score being the Music score.

The PB13-Ultra scored a 57/52 which, according to this ranking system makes the sub 5 points higher than the Fathom in Home Theater applications and 2 points higher than the Fathom in Music.

This score includes the sound quality of each individual sub. Quickness, loudness (and even quietness), depth, clarity, among other things are considered when Craig is scoring the individual sub.

The port options for the sub are 20Hz, which is the native tuning point, then 15Hz, 10Hz, and Sealed.

Craig did the review from the stock 20Hz tuning point.

Actually, I was just wondering if he had a post regarding only sound quality while not including extension or loudness. Would be interesting to know for all the sound quality dudes out there, me included. Also would have been interested to see the music ability individually graded for sound quality, loudness, and extension in the sealed, 10hz, and 15 hz mode vs a F113. Just because it is such a hot topic and more than enough people here aren't very concerned about SPL.

hey craig, thanks for the pb13 update ...

i'm thinking your listening was based on the 20hz tune?

i'm curious about your music rating ... I would like to compare yours and mine ...
I would rate the DD about 10 out of 10 for music because of its distortion free music capabilities, but for HT, the DD doesn't score as high, I think I like high distortion bass for my movies ...

for the PB13, what made you give it a 52? I was actually going to get the PB13 for my HT so I can get all the SPL I need for chest thumping ... but since it scored really really high on music, could it be that the PB13 is TOO ACCURATE for me?

He's commented briefly on the sound quality of the sub itself. I'm not nearly as qualified (or lucky, for that matter) as Craig is, but I have indeed put my sub into Sealed mode and decided to keep it there. Not only does it help in the articulation of the sub itself, but it also helps in my room to flatten out the response curve naturally.

I've heard a decent amount of subs and have not found a sub that sounds as musical as this sub. Granted, that statement also has to have an addendum, stating that I have not actually heard the Fathom, which indeed is its direct rival.

There are impressions of the sub from several of us owners already, kweezr has done a brief review, I've done one that I've posted on a couple of HT sites, this one included. I didn't post my review here because I'm not as well known and feared not being taken seriously because I've only lurked here for a couple years and haven't actually posted much. But, that aside, I definitely think that this is one FANTASTIC sub, in terms of musicality. If it means anything to you, this sub has turned my interest from mostly Home Theater use into mostly music usage as of late. I just can't stop listening to much of my CDs, SACDs, DVD-As and even streamed music on my system because I am now experience much more gratification with music on my system than ever before.

hey craig, thanks for the pb13 update ...

i'm thinking your listening was based on the 20hz tune?

i'm curious about your music rating ... I would like to compare yours and mine ...
I would rate the DD about 10 out of 10 for music because of its distortion free music capabilities, but for HT, the DD doesn't score as high, I think I like high distortion bass for my movies ...

for the PB13, what made you give it a 52? I was actually going to get the PB13 for my HT so I can get all the SPL I need for chest thumping ... but since it scored really really high on music, could it be that the PB13 is TOO ACCURATE for me?

That's preposterous, lol.

From what others have said, it was a 20hz tune.

He's commented briefly on the sound quality of the sub itself. I'm not nearly as qualified (or lucky, for that matter) as Craig is, but I have indeed put my sub into Sealed mode and decided to keep it there. Not only does it help in the articulation of the sub itself, but it also helps in my room to flatten out the response curve naturally.

I've heard a decent amount of subs and have not found a sub that sounds as musical as this sub. Granted, that statement also has to have an addendum, stating that I have not actually heard the Fathom, which indeed is its direct rival.

There are impressions of the sub from several of us owners already, kweezr has done a brief review, I've done one that I've posted on a couple of HT sites, this one included. I didn't post my review here because I'm not as well known and feared not being taken seriously because I've only lurked here for a couple years and haven't actually posted much. But, that aside, I definitely think that this is one FANTASTIC sub, in terms of musicality. If it means anything to you, this sub has turned my interest from mostly Home Theater use into mostly music usage as of late. I just can't stop listening to much of my CDs, SACDs, DVD-As and even streamed music on my system because I am now experience much more gratification with music on my system than ever before.

Awesome, you should send me a link to your review, would love to read. Craig should really post some numbers for the sealed mode.

That's preposterous, lol.


i only say that because I feel my DD18 is not suited to my HT tastes.

considering I already have the DD18 nearfield, i'm still not getting the chest thump.

I can't find the post tired of searching.

Does anyone know where it compares the F113 vs the PB13 or a post that details their score? I just see 50 vs 52 for music with no mention of sound quality stuff. Also, what port is it tuned in?

craig used the native tuning for both HT and music testing, he answered that question here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11632812&postcount=2768

The numbers have been run on the A7-900. I have not had the chance to listen to it in the same environment as the remaining subs, and won't get a final result until this task is complete.

Moving a 435 pound beast is not the easiest task.

hi .!! craig when u get to tested the a7-900 can u do it too with the woofer firing foward (standing up)

I can't find the post tired of searching.

Does anyone know where it compares the F113 vs the PB13 or a post that details their score? I just see 50 vs 52 for music with no mention of sound quality stuff. Also, what port is it tuned in?

All tuning on the SVS was the 20 Hz setting (all ports open). I understand why finding all the info is difficult ... The Fathom and Ultra are a solid match above 25 Hz. Bass Cello, Bass Guitar, Kick Drum ... are all presented with clarity, punch, and the ability to "stop and start on a dime".

The Ultra won out in the REALLY deep stuff ... Steely Dan's 2 against nature is incredible on the Ultra. Literally waves of tight, clean bass hitting you.

Last night, it was more "Prison Break". We are on season 2 ... and it is quite well recorded. There is a chase scene, on foot, where a rogue FBI agent is shooting at the escapees ... and the Ultra is the next step forward in "feel it" bass.

Craig,

You might want to add a signature line that links us back to the most recent summary.

Amazing review Craig. I think everyone expected you to rank it the best among the ported subwoofers, but fall short it the SQ department when it comes to the sealed subwoofer kings on your list. Kudos to honesty in listening!

Now perhaps you will not be given a hard time for sealed preferences?

Dr V

I think its worth a listen based on Craigs obvious and very extensive sub experience. In comparison to some other vented subs both cheaper and more expensive I found the previous SVS subs far from tight with music, which was a great disappointment after reading all the raves on this forum. The trend on this forum seems to be a preoccupation with output and extension and little based on micro dynamics, tightness and tonality which are much needed for music accuracy.

John

I've had the same views of previous SVS subs I have owned or heard which is why this new Ultra is so intriguing. Actually, looking at long time trends in this forum, I am seeing more concern for better detail and articulation and less emphasis on easy to measure parameters like output and extension. Its a sign that subwoofers are a mature product with sound quality rising in importance as users become more sophisticated and realize there's more to performance than output. The bar is rising for manufactuerers and its good to see SVS meet the challenge.

Whether the new Ultra is the category killer usurping the top sealed subs remains to be heard and looking at all the data that certainly appears inconclusive. But from all reports it looks like a fine choice at its price point. It should put pressure on prices charged by other companies which is good. Unfortunetly this hobby is all about diminishing increases in performance as price goes up so large price differences for small improvements will always be there. Certain niche buyers will always be willing to pay up for just a bit more quality.

With all the hyperbole associated with new products its hard not to be sceptical but the proof will be in the listening over an extended period. Having lived with the DD-18s and FL113s for the past year after various vented subs, its hard to believe a ported alignment can provide all the benefits of articulate tight sealed bass without the accompanying drawbacks from port noise and attendant distortion. Something which I find distracting when playing movies at or close to Dolby reference levels and also when playing my favourite tunes. Also, simply plugging ports does not turn a vented alignment into a sealed one.

I've had the same views of previous SVS subs I have owned or heard which is why this new Ultra is so intriguing. Actually, looking at long time trends in this forum, I am seeing more concern for better detail and articulation and less emphasis on easy to measure parameters like output and extension. Its a sign that subwoofers are a mature product with sound quality rising in importance as users become more sophisticated and realize there's more to performance than output. The bar is rising for manufactuerers and its good to see SVS meet the challenge.

Whether the new Ultra is the category killer usurping the top sealed subs remains to be heard and looking at all the data that certainly appears inconclusive. But from all reports it looks like a fine choice at its price point. It should put pressure on prices charged by other companies which is good. Unfortunetly this hobby is all about diminishing increases in performance as price goes up so large price differences for small improvements will always be there. Certain niche buyers will always be willing to pay up for just a bit more quality.

With all the hyperbole associated with new products its hard not to be sceptical but the proof will be in the listening over an extended period. Having lived with the DD-18s and FL113s for the past year after various vented subs, its hard to believe a ported alignment can provide all the benefits of articulate tight sealed bass without the accompanying drawbacks from port noise and attendant distortion. Something which I find distracting when playing movies at or close to Dolby reference levels and also when playing my favourite tunes. Also, simply plugging ports does not turn a vented alignment into a sealed one.

It's certainly interesting to read reviews from folks that have invested buku bucks on their existing choice of subs then pontificate on the virtues of their choice without hearing SVS's new Ultra13. With all due respect, I guess if I spent more than twice for a product, damn, I'm going to like it and forget about anything new coming out, sealed, ported or otherwise. I too have been in that boat before, it's hard not to become emotional with one's own investment choice. Proof is in folks, the SVS folks have created an articulate, tight "sealed" sounding ported masterpiece. Sure there will be other subs that come out as manufacturers have received notice that their is a new standard to follow and beat. 1O9 will be tough to beat but the bar has now been raised.:rolleyes:

Getech, glad to meet you. I turn over vented and sealed subs and other A/V gear fairly often, much to my wife's chagrin. Luckily or unluckily, its not a question of investment or cash outlay for me. Also, I get attached to people not audio components :cool:. My comments are all prefaced on wanting to hear the sub and hopefully that will occur soon involving a side by side comparison with several subs.

I am merely injecting another objective view in that there are very difficult design tradeoffs involving certain physical parameters with sealed and vented subs. You shouldn't read my comments as raining on the parade. I have learned to take excessive enthusiasm about musicality and vented subs with a grain of salt, especially since all the SVS subs I have heard were not that good in that department despite all the initial claims posted to the contrary. I'm hoping this one is as good as claimed.

Having said that, the Ultra 13s improved FR does away with the characteristic SVS hump of my old Ultra and its inadequate mid-high-bass reproduction. That alone should go a long way to improved detail and articulation. So I am expecting this version to be the best vented SVS sub so far for music applications. To go much further and say it outclasses all other subs implies physical characteristics not usually associated with a vented design or that the SVS designers have found the holy grail. Time will tell. :)

hey craig, if you get a chance, can you pop the driver out of the ultra and maybe even the amp so we can get a good look at the guts of this beast ?

:D

hey craig, if you get a chance, can you pop the driver out of the ultra and maybe even the amp so we can get a good look at the guts of this beast ?

:D

The driver is sealed into the enclosure. Removing it is not an option .. there is quite the collection of pics on SVS's site, though. :)

Getech, glad to meet you. I turn over vented and sealed subs and other A/V gear fairly often, much to my wife's chagrin. Luckily or unluckily, its not a question of investment or cash outlay for me. Also, I get attached to people not audio components :cool:. My comments are all prefaced on wanting to hear the sub and hopefully that will occur soon involving a side by side comparison with several subs.

I am merely injecting another objective view in that there are very difficult design tradeoffs involving certain physical parameters with sealed and vented subs. You shouldn't read my comments as raining on the parade. I have learned to take excessive enthusiasm about musicality and vented subs with a grain of salt, especially since all the SVS subs I have heard were not that good in that department despite all the initial claims posted to the contrary. I'm hoping this one is as good as claimed.

Having said that, the Ultra 13s improved FR does away with the characteristic SVS hump of my old Ultra and its inadequate mid-high-bass reproduction. That alone should go a long way to improved detail and articulation. So I am expecting this version to be the best vented SVS sub so far for music applications. To go much further and say it outclasses all other subs implies physical characteristics not usually associated with a vented design or that the SVS designers have found the holy grail. Time will tell. :)

Very well said John!

hey craig, if you get a chance, can you pop the driver out of the ultra and maybe even the amp so we can get a good look at the guts of this beast ?

:D

I really think he should do this with all the sub he tests so we can get a look at motor structer,basket,amp,box internals.

craig, sealed? then what about taking the amp out and just snapping a pix of the inside of the box? and others like the def tech, and jl etc etc. Maybe its just me but I would love to see the insides of all those subs, anyone else agree?

Has there been any other issues with the quality control on this sub then the 3 reported on the thread?

I really think he should do this with all the sub he tests so we can get a look at motor structer,basket,amp,box internals.


...because the cosmetic of the parts used tells us sooo much about the performance of a given product... Riiiiight :rolleyes:

After catching up with the last 10 pages of this thread......Wow, just wow!!

Craig, Thanks for sharing all this information with us. I am just blown away (in a good way) by all of this. The F113 was and still IS, the BEST I have ever heard and for it to be toppled by the new Ultra at a lower price point is incredible. I hope to be lucky enough to hear this new Ultra from SVS. Thanks again :)

Hi John. It is rather interesting that you too found the SVS PB12-NSD lacking musically. The PB10-NSD was a little better musically BUT the PB12-NSD flat out kicks a$$ with respect to ht applications. Personally, I found the Mirage S12 12" sub much better with music and about equal to the PB10-NSD when watching dvds. Therefore, the Mirage S12 imho is better with music and the PB12-NSD was significantly better for ht. It goes w/o saying the Mirage S12 seemed to give a better balance over-all between the two extremes. It is good to see there are others here that have drawn the same or nearly the same conclusion(s).
Haven't heard any of the Mirage subs. I need a sub to do both music/ht. I have never believed in the theory that a sub good for ht use should not be accurate for music use. The EP500 and VTF3MK2 are clear examples of doing this well where the PB12NSD was not. I don't know why this is but it was disappointing after reading all the raves on the PB12NSD. The PB13U sounds like it could be what I am after but I will reserve my feelings till I can get one into my system.

John

...because the cosmetic of the parts used tells us sooo much about the performance of a given product... Riiiiight :rolleyes:

Ha something tells me the Submersive uses 15" woofers with 10oz magnets ...and giant 1" voice coils push the cones. :p

Do not defend yourself ;)

Why not have a mean looking woofer like SVS(Ultra),JL or TC Sounds... it helps sales.

...because the cosmetic of the parts used tells us sooo much about the performance of a given product... Riiiiight :rolleyes:

No Mark, obviously the cosmetics have nothing to do with the performance. However, an analogy might be that a Ferrari engine cosmetics have nothing to do with it's performance, but I sure wouldn't mind a peak under the hood if I got the opportunity.

No Mark, obviously the cosmetics have nothing to do with the performance. However, an analogy might be that a Ferrari engine cosmetics have nothing to do with it's performance, but I sure wouldn't mind a peak under the hood if I got the opportunity.

A Ferrari engine is a sight to behold. The sad thing about subwoofer pics is people WILL make performance evaluations just by looking at a driver.

So no, I won't be spending time taking out drivers and amps, just to post pics of the insides.

I hope this does not offend anyone, but this is enough work as it is. :)

CRAIGSUB

wheres the review of the eD SUB?

The testing on the PB Ultra-13 is complete.

This is one absolutely amazing subwoofer. For starters, here is the graph of WOTW, taken from the listening position:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/UltraWOTW.jpg

This was in the native, 3 ports open 20 Hz tuning option.

Note the output at various frequencies:

15 Hz: 97 dB
20 Hz: 104 dB
25 Hz: 105 dB

What makes this scene so difficult is the fact that the subwoofer is being made to deliver high levels of bass at several different frequencies simultaneously. It is a true torture test. In the 15 to 25 Hz bandwidth, the Ultra is out-gunning the Fathom by several dB.

The Ultra also is as articulate as the Fathom above 30 Hz while being more visceral below 30.

Overall, the Ultra gets a 57 on Home Theater and a 52 on music, for a 109.


OH SNAP!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek:

i will settle for nothing less than the price/performance ratio of an SVS Ultra PB13...


I mean...HOLY COW!!!

A Ferrari engine is a sight to behold. The sad thing about subwoofer pics is people WILL make performance evaluations just by looking at a driver.

So no, I won't be spending time taking out drivers and amps, just to post pics of the insides.

I hope this does not offend anyone, but this is enough work as it is. :)If some of you don't remember, Craig is photographically challenged. He needs his wife to take pictures for him. After seeing the A7-900 and then asking his wife if he can move it indoors, asking for any other favors would be risking life and limb.

What really gets me about the PB 13U is the fact it gives the performance it does in a small and pretty form factor compared to some of the monster DIY subs out there....

I too have a wife and I can tell you now the rosewood looking finish will be an EASY sell for me:D


$1500 *was* more than I was willing to pay, but this is "the magic sub" for me....JL-beating performance for half the price?:eek:


COUNT ME IN!!:D:D

What really gets me about the PB 13U is the fact it gives the performance it does in a small and pretty form factor compared to some of the monster DIY subs out there....

Well it is pretty, but the size is misleading. It's shorter than the Plus/2, but a bit longer. It ain't petite and it's not easy to move...it's just a great woof. Comparing it to some of the DIY projects shown might make it look reasonably sized...but I think you'd best sell this to WAF as an end table ;)

If some of you don't remember, Craig is photographically challenged. He needs his wife to take pictures for him. After seeing the A7-900 and then asking his wife if he can move it indoors, asking for any other favors would be risking life and limb.

I do have a plan ... at the GTG Saturday, there will be 25 guys drinking, 70 degree temps, and testosterone wanting to hear that sub.

Picture 8 guys lugging it in like the villagers charging Frankenstein's castle with a battering ram.

I can blame it all on the guys ... leave it there for a couple weeks, and finish the test. When the guys come to do her new master bath, they can take out the monster sub, and return it to my Garage, where it will reside in my new cigar lounge.

MAYBE, by then, Chad Kuypers will get off his dead rear-end and sell me some subwoofers ... :D

And Randy is right ... it is not so much that I am photographically challenged, but rather that my lovely bride of 18 years loves taking pics.

She gets fiesty if I try cooking, anything art related, photography and decorating.

It may have something to do with the "Dogs Playing Poker" artwork I wanted to put up in my cigar bar ... :eek::cool:

Well it is pretty, but the size is misleading. It's shorter than the Plus/2, but a bit longer.
Isn't it an inch less deep than the Plus/2 ?

And Randy is right ... it is not so much that I am photographically challenged, but rather that my lovely bride of 18 years loves taking pics.

Even if you can use a camera, it is almost impossible to get good pics with a Tom Collins in one hand and a universal remote in the other.:)

Even if you can use a camera, it is almost impossible to get good pics with a Tom Collins in one hand and a universal remote in the other.:)

This is why I have such a hard time with threads like this. You are SO wrong, Mister.

It is a Martini and a Universal remote.

Get it right next time ... :cool:

Just wanted to say thank you for all of your efforts. I'm relatively new to a 'real' HT setup, having had a crap KLH setup for years, moving to a HTIB (S790) last year, and thanks to this site and others, finally getting some better speakers which has really made the sound stage come alive.

The sub is the next 'toy' and this thread has been quite an education.

My current setup:

Onkyo HTR540 (from s790 htib)
Polk R50 fronts
CSI3 center
Denon rears (about 20 years old, but solid)

The weak link is the barely useful sub that came with my htib and thanks to this info I'm looking at either the Mk2-3 or perhaps the Acculine A-sub. From the reviews, and for the WAF, it sounds like the A-sub will fit just right for my needs - music (and quality at lower volumes) much more important than HT, don't need to shake the house and wake the baby!)

Thanks again for all the information, in this post, and on the site.

Craig

THANKS!! Great work you are doing here! I am glad you have the time, money, expertise and thick skin to take something like this on.




Are you sure you can't take all your subs apart and take pictures?;)

Just wanted to say thank you for all of your efforts. I'm relatively new to a 'real' HT setup, having had a crap KLH setup for years, moving to a HTIB (S790) last year, and thanks to this site and others, finally getting some better speakers which has really made the sound stage come alive.

The sub is the next 'toy' and this thread has been quite an education.

My current setup:

Onkyo HTR540 (from s790 htib)
Polk R50 fronts
CSI3 center
Denon rears (about 20 years old, but solid)

The weak link is the barely useful sub that came with my htib and thanks to this info I'm looking at either the Mk2-3 or perhaps the Acculine A-sub. From the reviews, and for the WAF, it sounds like the A-sub will fit just right for my needs - music (and quality at lower volumes) much more important that HT, don't need to shake the house and wake the baby!)

Thanks again for all the information, in this post, and on the site.

You are welcome ... Thanks for the kind words. A good sub will definitely enhance your system.

Either the Acculine or the Hsu will do fine.

Thanks for that. I actually spent a while emailing and exchanging PMs with Brian a year ago when he was putting the finishing touches on the 15" servo sealed design. Very impressive guy to say the least and his obsession for quality audiophile bass shines through. His DIY kits are outstanding buys. I heard the 12" version and its sound quality was jaw dropping for a $429 kit. His ideas influenced me to go an all sealed multi sub solution in my HT which now consists of a JL113 and 2 Velo 18"s. Output is not an issue.

John, to be honest I am seriusly looking at Brian's 12" Sealed Servo myself. But, I am also looking at others such as the Dayton 12" Reference HF drivers as well. Not really in any big hurry and will take my time till I am sure of making the best decision I can. Besides, money is a bit tight here right now so it kinda helps me in doing so. Have a good evening. :):)

Haven't heard any of the Mirage subs. I need a sub to do both music/ht. I have never believed in the theory that a sub good for ht use should not be accurate for music use. The EP500 and VTF3MK2 are clear examples of doing this well where the PB12NSD was not. I don't know why this is but it was disappointing after reading all the raves on the PB12NSD. The PB13U sounds like it could be what I am after but I will reserve my feelings till I can get one into my system.

John
John, I agree with your description of the PB12-NSD. The reason it is NOT as good with music is because it is tuned to 18 Hz. As such, the trade-off comes at the expense of output in the 40-80 Hz range where most of the music action is at. In other words, there is no midbass hump so to speak but rather a more linear frequency response. In order to have more of a midbass hump the PB12-NSD would have to be tuned higher say around 26 Hz or so. Therfore, it is in my honest opinion the PB12-NSD is much more for ht use. I was just using the Mirage S12 as a reference point.

I disagree, having a midbass hump or a higher tuning does not make a subwoofer more musical. Look at the Ultra13, it has an extremely flat response and low tuning.

This is why I have such a hard time with threads like this. You are SO wrong, Mister.

It is a Martini and a Universal remote.

Get it right next time ... :cool:

Which brand vodka, shaken or stirred??? :D:D:D

Which brand vodka, shaken or stirred??? :D:D:D

Normally shaken. However, if served by a Victoria's Secret model, either works.

I like Absolut or Ketel One ...

...but I think you'd best sell this to WAF as an end table ;)

You mean like this? :D

This is why I have such a hard time with threads like this. You are SO wrong, Mister.

It is a Martini and a Universal remote.

Get it right next time ... :cool:I almost put UNIVERSAL, but then I thought you might be too humble to assume such lofty powers. I didn't figure you to be a Vodka Martini kind of guy. I should get to Erie some day. I may find it to be more metropolitan than I imagine. <place smilies where you see fit>
Now I'm just killing time waiting for whichever sub is up next.

where did all the "please don't derail" the thread cry babies go?

:confused::confused::confused:

where did all the "please don't derail" the thread cry babies go?

:confused::confused::confused:

Getting the nails done, or showing the girlfriend how pretty and petite the new sub they got is. :p

where did all the "please don't derail" the thread cry babies go?

:confused::confused::confused:We are waiting for the next review as the relevant banter about the Ultra has pretty much dried up. I still haven't seen a new thread started about how a cement-filled car makes the ideal sub woofer enclosure.:rolleyes:

Isn't it an inch less deep than the Plus/2 ?Ya know, I'm not going to go and look...whatever...it's pretty damned close to a Plus/2s size...not small...just better looking (subjectively) :D

Not that it matters, but the U13 is 1" shallower (w/o grill), 1.5" wider, and 4.5" shorter (though the box itself is very close).

thread starters are the only ones who can derail threads, come on we all know that.:p
Sorry for being a jerk otk i just felt like saying something before 30 other people did. I see you removed your comment and so did i. I just know that whenever cars/racing they seem to derail threads quite a bit.

I would like to know how the PB-13 is able to achieve such improved musical qualities. Craig, have you flattened your room response using the SMS-1 with the PB-13 ? I mean, I've got a PB10 ISD and it's not that bad for music.

I have no problem believing that the PB-13 Ultra is a huge step up. With the price difference involved, there had better be a darn good improvement. :D

But if we take my subwoofer, for example, with acoustic treatment (with ample bass trap absorption) can transform the bass completely I would imagine (in conjunction with the SMS-1 which I've got). But where do we draw the line ? Are all subwoofers that you have compared been equalized with the SMS-1 to identical levels and then is then do you have lots of bass trapping in your room as well ?

Thanks !

I would like to know how the PB-13 is able to achieve such improved musical qualities. Craig, have you flattened your room response using the SMS-1 with the PB-13 ? I mean, I've got a PB10 ISD and it's not that bad for music.

I have no problem believing that the PB-13 Ultra is a huge step up. With the price difference involved, there had better be a darn good improvement. :D

But if we take my subwoofer, for example, with acoustic treatment (with ample bass trap absorption) can transform the bass completely I would imagine (in conjunction with the SMS-1 which I've got). But where do we draw the line ? Are all subwoofers that you have compared been equalized with the SMS-1 to identical levels and then is then do you have lots of bass trapping in your room as well ?

Thanks !

I use 2 bass traps, and some heavy curtains, for room control. Outside that, all subs have been eq'ed for years here ... first with a Behringer 2496, and now an SMS-1 OR a 2496 (for my DIY project).

I disagree, having a midbass hump or a higher tuning does not make a subwoofer more musical. Look at the Ultra13, it has an extremely flat response and low tuning.
This is because the Ultra uses a much better driver and a more powerful amp when compared to the PB12-NSD. For clarification, the PB12-NSD is stellar with ht BUT do find it lacking musically speaking. I, along with the help of Ed Mullen was able to get it performing much better BUT still do not find it real musical. When compared to the Mirage Omni S12, the S12 was MUCH more musical primarily because it had a higher tuning frequency thus giving more output in the lower to upper midbass where most of the musical action is at. More specifically, the S12 was much more tighter, punchier, and articulate sounding when listening to music. However, the PB12-NSD really shines down low like no other I have ever owned. The Mirage S12 was no slouch with ht either for that matter. It is true that if a sub is tuned real low it comes at the price of output in the midbass region. Sure, the are better drivers as well as having more power that can compensate and as you mentioned that is what the Ultra is all about. :):)

So, when is this thing going to be tested?
http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=2_119&products_id=607

What really gets me about the PB 13U is the fact it gives the performance it does in a small and pretty form factor compared to some of the monster DIY subs out there....

I have the sub, and agree the Rosewood is stunning. But unless you're comparing the sub to a Plus/2 or that beast from ED with the dual 18" woofers, this sub is enormous. When my wife saw it in the hallway she nearly threw her purse at me, swore, then asked if we could also store meat in it.

Sounds like I will get a chance to see the F113 in person this Sunday with Jakeman and possibly a couple others, will be interesting to hear how big of a difference there is between the subs. Trust me, I'd love the smaller form factor of the F113 as the size of my room is not overly large (13x17x9), but just couldn't justify spending upwards of $4k CDN on a sub that I use once a week at best! Even $1800 (post tax) on the PB13 was a stretch. I am glad I bought it though! Nice to know you have one of, if not the best, subs CDN$1800 can buy!

Will be interesting to see what happens if/when SVS puts the 13" into a sealed, smaller design like the SB12.

PBC

What really gets me about the PB 13U is the fact it gives the performance it does in a small and pretty form factor compared to some of the monster DIY subs out there....


This is why IB DIY subs are perfect....the wife doesnt even see them :D

I have to point it out to people since they generally dont notice the 4 18" drivers in the ceiling 12 ft high.

I

Will be interesting to see what happens if/when SVS puts the 13" into a sealed, smaller design like the SB12.

PBC

As attractive as that sounds, I don't think that is ever going to happen with the 13Ultra driver. I seem to recall the discussion coming up before and something to the effect that the design of the current driver does not lend itself well to operation in a small sealed box.
That does not rule out that SVS could possibly modify the design. Anything is possible.