Since SVS is internet only, I think its market is the entheusiast. Size doesn't matter that much.

Smaller seal subs are more like what you'd see in a brick and mortar store where the wife can instantly veto a purchase.

This is because the Ultra uses a much better driver and a more powerful amp when compared to the PB12-NSD. For clarification, the PB12-NSD is stellar with ht BUT do find it lacking musically speaking. I, along with the help of Ed Mullen was able to get it performing much better BUT still do not find it real musical. When compared to the Mirage Omni S12, the S12 was MUCH more musical primarily because it had a higher tuning frequency thus giving more output in the lower to upper midbass where most of the musical action is at. More specifically, the S12 was much more tighter, punchier, and articulate sounding when listening to music. However, the PB12-NSD really shines down low like no other I have ever owned. The Mirage S12 was no slouch with ht either for that matter. It is true that if a sub is tuned real low it comes at the price of output in the midbass region. Sure, the are better drivers as well as having more power that can compensate and as you mentioned that is what the Ultra is all about. :):)

I agree that subwoofers DO most certainly have their own sonic characters for a variety of reasons. I dissagree that it is a higher tuning and a bumped bottom end that provided the sonic character you found appealing for music. There are many factors that shape the subjective sound. I would suggest you restrain yourself from making assumptions as to the why before seeing measurements of the subwoofer both outdoors and in your room.

Even making comparisons such as Craig has in his WOTW scenes opens up some potential pitfalls in how you choose to optimize the sub in the room. This is also why you do still need to listen to the result to confirm that something that might look better in one metric actually yeilds a subjective advantage.

When my wife saw it in the hallway she nearly threw her purse at me, swore, then asked if we could also store meat in it.
That's hysterical!!:D


Tim

...unless you're comparing the sub to a Plus/2 or that beast from ED with the dual 18" woofers, this sub is enormous. When my wife saw it in the hallway she nearly threw her purse at me, swore, then asked if we could also store meat in it.

I'd love the smaller form factor of the F113 as the size of my room is not overly large (13x17x9), but just couldn't justify spending upwards of $4k CDN on a sub
This is exactly why I'm very much looking forward to the sealed subs that are coming from Epik. Hopefully the sound quality from them will be as good as Chad has suggested. If so, count me in. :)

This is probably a tough question, but does anyone know where a Paradigm PW-2100 might fall in this comparison? If not, what specs should I look at for an on paper comparison?

I agree that subwoofers DO most certainly have their own sonic characters for a variety of reasons. There are many factors that shape the subjective sound.

Even making comparisons such as Craig has in his WOTW scenes opens up some potential pitfalls in how you choose to optimize the sub in the room. This is also why you do still need to listen to the result to confirm that something that might look better in one metric actually yeilds a subjective advantage.

I think these points are very important. There are some owners who have read Craig's reviews (as excellent as they are) and decided to purchase a sub just based on that alone. It may result in a happy customer, but it may not. One should always listen to the sub whenever possible, or find multiple reviews to see if other reviewers you trust have come to the same conclusion about the sound quality.

I agree that subwoofers DO most certainly have their own sonic characters for a variety of reasons. I dissagree that it is a higher tuning and a bumped bottom end that provided the sonic character you found appealing for music. There are many factors that shape the subjective sound. I would suggest you restrain yourself from making assumptions as to the why before seeing measurements of the subwoofer both outdoors and in your room.

But when it comes to music, how different can the sonic characteristic really be with both subs being so linear? It's not like we are comparing the accuracy of a full range speaker system here. Should we start comparing subwoofer performance in terms of musical category's, jazz verses rock verses classical, etc.... Maybe. :D

Ian

While FR is important, your comment presupposes that FR is the only important attribute and that is far from the case. Every sub like every speaker has a different sonic character. Factors like THD, IMD, transient response, phase response, port noise, group delay, enclosure resonance etc. ,to name a few, all contibute to what you finally hear.

But when it comes to music, how different can the sonic characteristic really be with both subs being so linear? It's not like we are comparing the accuracy of a full range speaker system here. Should we start comparing subwoofer performance in terms of musical category's, jazz verses rock verses classical, etc.... Maybe. :D

Ian

Hi Ian,

I'm not sure which subs you are referring to or what qualities you are characterizing when you say, "how different can the sonic characteristic really be with both subs being so linear?"

I think most users would be surprised as to how small a change in broad band level can be heard in a loudspeaker. The subwoofer is most certainly an extension of the speaker, and how it is integrated matters. While the room does HUGELY dominate the measured response at the listener and it's variations with frequency, seemingly subtle changes in power response are readily audible. In this case I'm using the term power response as the total energy put into the room by the subwoofer, which for most purposes is the 1/2 space (=ground plane) response.

While FR is important, your comment presupposes that FR is the only important attribute and that is far from the case. Every sub like every speaker has a different sonic character. Factors like THD, IMD, transient response, phase response, port noise, group delay, enclosure resonance etc. ,to name a few, all contibute to what you finally hear.
Looking at various tests of subs I have tried with good FR what you say makes perfect sense. It confirms the sonic differences I have heard in SQ when ever I've swapped between them.

John

hey craig, you might want to use this link in your sig instead of the link that takes you to the top of the thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136

hey craig, you might want to use this link in your sig instead of the link that takes you to the top of the thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136

You guys are good. Adjustment made. :D

I posted this in an older thread, but I wonder what Craig and others think about the fact along with "digging a little deeper" FR wise, that it seems that the PB13 also has a more linear response than the PC13? Looking at the two graphs on SVS's site, it seems that is the case.

Forgive me if this was answered but I couldn't find it; did Craigsub ever get a reply from SVS as to what caused the (amp?) failure on his original PB-13U?

Forgive me if this was answered but I couldn't find it; did Craigsub ever get a reply from SVS as to what caused the (amp?) failure on his original PB-13U?

It was just a pinched lead in a wire.

You guys are good.

sounds like Robert De Niro :D

Craigsub...

Would you ever do a test for HSU 3HO + TURBO + MBM?

Or, this is not a fair comparison because you are actually using 2 subwoofers?

If you don't do the test, what would be your HYPOTHETICAL guess of what you would score these two together? Over 100 points? :D

It was just a pinched lead in a wire.
Pinched pre or post-delivery?

I'm just surprised it worked for a while before quitting.

Not trying to pick on SV here, but shipping back a DOA PB-13U wouldn't be cheap, so I'm just trying to make sure it "couldn't" happen to anyone else...

Craigsub...

Would you ever do a test for HSU 3HO + TURBO + MBM?

Or, this is not a fair comparison because you are actually using 2 subwoofers?

If you don't do the test, what would be your HYPOTHETICAL guess of what you would score these two together? Over 100 points? :D
I would love to know as well. I purchased this combo last year, when Hsu was the talk of the town (in the bang-for-the-buck category). I feel it was a good decision... but I was foolish to think upgradeitis would not set in for at least a couple of years :rolleyes:.

I too purchased this combo set last year.

I actually placed the preorder price for the PB13 but canceled the order the next day. But, I didn't think it would be worth testing, comparing, and maybe selling the HO/Turbo + MBM.

But now that Craigsub gave it a Whopping 109 POINTS! compared to 94points for the HO...it's making me think twice that I shouldn't have cancel my PB13 Preorder.

Pinched pre or post-delivery?

I'm just surprised it worked for a while before quitting.

Not trying to pick on SV here, but shipping back a DOA PB-13U wouldn't be cheap, so I'm just trying to make sure it "couldn't" happen to anyone else...

It happened after delivery ... the sub was fine for about 6-7 days, then stopped.

SVS offered several options, none of which would have cost me anything.

I ended up driving there, taking the sub, because I had a business meeting about a half hour from the facility.

Let's talk a "hypothetical REALLY bad" situation ... a guy orders a sub. It comes in DOA ... SVS will swap it out totally free of charge.

I too purchased this combo set last year.

I actually placed the preorder price for the PB13 but canceled the order the next day. But, I didn't think it would be worth testing, comparing, and maybe selling the HO/Turbo + MBM.

But now that Craigsub gave it a Whopping 109 POINTS! compared to 94points for the HO...it's making me think twice that I shouldn't have cancel my PB13 Preorder.The piano gloss black is still at the pre-order price. You do have the MBM in your system and Craig would surely give that combo a higher rating than the HO alone. Probably not 109 though. If you tried and stayed with a U13, I doubt you would have much trouble getting a good resell price on the HSU stuff.

gbondioli and greddy09sc - The VTF-3 HO is still a great subwoofer. We have one hooked up in our family room ... keep in mind, it is a $900 sub in box form, which is $600 less than the ultra, and is a tremendous value.

Adding the MBM-12 is more of a room issue, IMO, than a subwoofer issue.

I suggest to anyone who is thinking about one that you try it in your system, for yourself. :)

Hi Ian,

I'm not sure which subs you are referring to or what qualities you are characterizing when you say, "how different can the sonic characteristic really be with both subs being so linear?"

I think most users would be surprised as to how small a change in broad band level can be heard in a loudspeaker. The subwoofer is most certainly an extension of the speaker, and how it is integrated matters. While the room does HUGELY dominate the measured response at the listener and it's variations with frequency, seemingly subtle changes in power response are readily audible. In this case I'm using the term power response as the total energy put into the room by the subwoofer, which for most purposes is the 1/2 space (=ground plane) response.


Mark, I was referring to audiofreaks38 comments comparing the SVS PB12 and the Mirage S12. Both are very clean and close in terms of bandwidth uniformity. Maybe I'm just not as picky since I believe properly place and calibrated, both these subs will reproduce most music quite faithfully.

Ian

It happened after delivery ... the sub was fine for about 6-7 days, then stopped.



Weird,how does a cable get pinched inside the box when the sub is sealed :p :o

Smaller seal subs are more like what you'd see in a brick and mortar store where the wife can instantly veto a purchase.

In those situations you find a new wife :p


Back in 02 my girlfriend said I had to make a choice between her and DB Drag....I told that b-tch I've made harder decisions at the Coke machine.

terrybrocks look at signature here (http://audioforum.termpro.com/topic/4/17957.html#000020)

Dunno about the rest of you guys but I wear the pants in my house and what I say is always the final world, and I am married and she pays my bills :)

Weird,how does a cable get pinched inside the box when the sub is sealed :p :o

If you actually got a job, you would have better things to do then to think up inane questions ... :rolleyes::D

It falls under the category of "stuff happens".

Hey, are you up to 140 dB at 18 Hz with two 15 inch drivers yet ? :p

Iggester are you trying to be an internet gangster or does it come naturally?

re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-ImqHgXCOg

The pissing contest in this thread is getting beyond juvenile.

--

Craig, I've been lurking here for almost a year. I've learned a lot from this thread; thanks! I'm looking forward to your future review of an ED A5-350. Uncharacteristically I purchased one on faith along with a R-DES.

If you actually got a job, you would have better things to do then to think up inane questions ... :rolleyes::D

It falls under the category of "stuff happens".

Hey, are you up to 140 dB at 18 Hz with two 15 inch drivers yet ? :p

Hey it wasn't me who cant take a sub out of a box :p:rolleyes:


140 db not yet :D :o

Hey it wasn't me who cant take a sub out of a box :p:rolleyes:


140 db not yet :D :o

Iggster, SVS asked me not to take the driver out of the box, as it is sealed into place. If you need help understanding this, let me know, and I will see about using smaller words for you ... :D

Hey Craig, would you know why the PB13 would have a more linear FR than the PC13? I was thinking of getting a couple of PC13's as the PB13 is too big of a foot print and are just too damn heavy! I was thinking since I would have two located behind my left and right NHT M6's (on their P6 pedestals) I could run the PC13's in the 15Hz tune for a more linear FR though as it seems to be a bit "flatter" in the 15Hz tune mode.

Thanks,
MF

Hey Craig, would you know why the PB13 would have a more linear FR than the PC13? I was thinking of getting a couple of PC13's as the PB13 is too big of a foot print and are just too damn heavy! I was thinking since I would have two located behind my left and right NHT M6's (on their P6 pedestals) I could run the PC13's in the 15Hz tune for a more linear FR though as it seems to be a bit "flatter" in the 15Hz tune mode.

Thanks,
MF
I highly doubt that small difference is audible.

Let's take a look at the SVS graphs ...

PCU:

http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/charts/pc13_ultra_new_FR_basic.jpg

PBU:

http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/charts/pb13_ultra_FR_basic.jpg

I doubt there would be a discernible difference in blind testing between the 2 ... perhaps a bit more accurate on the box version. That is a BIG perhaps.

I highly doubt that small difference is audible.
Yeah, I was thinking that, but just wanted to get as much info as possible. I'm guessing as far as SQ for music, there should be no audible differences between the front-firing PB13 and the down-firing PC13?

Thanks,
MF

Yeah, it was the upper bass area in the 20Hz tune that I was referring too. Probably not too big of a deal huh?

Let's take a look at the SVS graphs ...

PCU:

http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/charts/pc13_ultra_new_FR_basic.jpg

PBU:

http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/charts/pb13_ultra_FR_basic.jpg

I doubt there would be a discernible difference in blind testing between the 2 ... perhaps a bit more accurate on the box version. That is a BIG perhaps.

MF, considering how different rooms can affect the the frequency response that you actually hear, there's no telling which Ultra will give a flatter response in your room. In any case, the differences between the two designs will be slight. You should go with the form-factor that you prefer.

When using a standard 80 Hz crossover, there seems to be around 1.5 dB difference at 80 Hz. Anywhere lower it's smaller than that. I highly doubt that's audible to anyone. :)

MF ... The difference is possibly the down-firing vs. front firing driver. Above the tuning frequency, the 2 should be the same.

In room, you will likely get much larger swings from resonances and room gain than anything in this graph.

Cool, thanks for the feedback Craig, Richard and Mike. Much appreciated!

MF

I agree that subwoofers DO most certainly have their own sonic characters for a variety of reasons. I dissagree that it is a higher tuning and a bumped bottom end that provided the sonic character you found appealing for music. There are many factors that shape the subjective sound. I would suggest you restrain yourself from making assumptions as to the why before seeing measurements of the subwoofer both outdoors and in your room.

Even making comparisons such as Craig has in his WOTW scenes opens up some potential pitfalls in how you choose to optimize the sub in the room. This is also why you do still need to listen to the result to confirm that something that might look better in one metric actually yeilds a subjective advantage.
Hi Mark. My assumptions are based on my own experiences and from what I have read on various forums. I am certainly no expert by any stretch of the imagination BUT I have learned a few things. For what ever reason or reason(s) the fact is the SVS PB12-NSD is NOT nearly as musical as the Mirage S12 was no matter where I placed it (PB12-NSD) in my living-room. For ht purposes, the PB12-NSD was noticeably better down low. With Ed Mullens help I have the SVS PB12-NSD placed in between my mains which is exactly the same place the Mirage S12 was placed. Sorry, if I came off as some sort of expert. Thanks for the clarification. :):)

Mark, I was referring to audiofreaks38 comments comparing the SVS PB12 and the Mirage S12. Both are very clean and close in terms of bandwidth uniformity. Maybe I'm just not as picky since I believe properly place and calibrated, both these subs will reproduce most music quite faithfully.

Ian
Ian this may be true BUT this is not the case in my living-room. The S12 was much better musically and the PB12-NSD was noticeably better down low with ht. I do agree, however, that both are excellent subs but my preference is a bit more on music and as such why I am disappointed. I am sure you understand my frustration.

Ha the new Ultra batter stay ported or in sealed mode gets owned by the sealed compact champ ...the JL Audio Fathom f113. :p

Let me drill a few holes in my JL's....;) Speed holes.

Sometimes a sub that has a very strong bottom end coupled with a room which may add considerable gain to that already strong bottom end, can sound heavy and "slow" with music. It that case, the sub's deep, extended response will actually work against it when it comes to sounding articulate and "fast" with music.

The Ultra is prepared for this should it happen. That's what the Room Compensation control does.

Does anyone know if movie and music recordings are always mixed assuming a perfectly flat FR response?

Funny question I suppose, but I was wondering if some movies might be mixed assuming a weaker bottom end.

Let me drill a few holes in my JL's....;) Speed holes.

LOL!...Homer Simpson would be proud. ;)

Ha the new Ultra batter stay ported or in sealed mode gets owned by the sealed compact champ ...the JL Audio Fathom f113. :p

Maybe, but a true sealed sub can't launch a potato.:eek:

Randy ... Funny you should mention a potato ... We threatened to have a potato launching contest with my first PB-2+ (remember that name?) and VTF-3.2 back in early 2004.

And Chad Kuypers mentioned in the Epik thread that we will be purchasing a Valor, Castle and Conquest as soon as he can get a break to fill my order.

The games continue .... :D

Randy ... Funny you should mention a potato ... We threatened to have a potato launching contest with my first PB-2+ (remember that name?) and VTF-3.2 back in early 2004.
It was the pictures of your spud cannons that inspired my remark. Maybe you need to dig that out so Arthur can have a giggle.

craig, when you're doing the HT testing, is the sub only seeing the LFE channel or is it getting redirected bass from other channels as well?

assuming you say yes to the latter, which channels and where are they crossed?

craig, when you're doing the HT testing, is the sub only seeing the LFE channel or is it getting redirected bass from other channels as well?

assuming you say yes to the later, which channels and where are they crossed?

Typically, all channels are re-directed @ 80 Hz. There are occasions I will play around with some different settings ... especially with 2 channel listening and larger towers.

It was the pictures of your spud cannons that inspired my remark. Maybe you need to dig that out so Arthur can have a giggle.

Those pics were lost when my laptop's harddrive crashed ... bummer.

Those WERE the good old days, when people only bitched about SVS and Hsu ... now we have eD, Epik, DIY, etc ... etc ... etc .. :D

Those pics were lost when my laptop's harddrive crashed ... bummer.

Those WERE the good old days, when people only bitched about SVS and Hsu ... now we have eD, Epik, DIY, etc ... etc ... etc .. :DThese are complicated times.:confused: It was easier to eliminate subs and narrow your choices to a couple in your budget. Now there are so many good ones, it's very difficult to decide.

Those pics are probably in the archives somewhere in here, but I ain't doing the search. Lost memories due to better technology. The old brownies wouldn't have lost your pics.

I just received my PB-Ultra and have been very impressed so far. Here are some pictures of it next to an Aerial SW-12. Sorry about the pictures, there were some dust particles blowing around. Believe it or not, the pictures do not do justice to either subwoofer, both look much better in person and the SVS looks almost twice the size of the Aerial.

All tuning on the SVS was the 20 Hz setting (all ports open). I understand why finding all the info is difficult ... The Fathom and Ultra are a solid match above 25 Hz. Bass Cello, Bass Guitar, Kick Drum ... are all presented with clarity, punch, and the ability to "stop and start on a dime".

The Ultra won out in the REALLY deep stuff ... Steely Dan's 2 against nature is incredible on the Ultra. Literally waves of tight, clean bass hitting you.

Last night, it was more "Prison Break". We are on season 2 ... and it is quite well recorded. There is a chase scene, on foot, where a rogue FBI agent is shooting at the escapees ... and the Ultra is the next step forward in "feel it" bass.

Do you use the sub sealed?

If you actually got a job, you would have better things to do then to think up inane questions ... :rolleyes::D

It falls under the category of "stuff happens".

Hey, are you up to 140 dB at 18 Hz with two 15 inch drivers yet ? :p

Perhaps we need to move up to 2 cocktails at a time, Craig?

Perhaps we need to move up to 2 cocktails at a time, Craig?

I am actually starting to like Iggster. He loves subs, and you gotta love a guy who claims 130 dB from a single 15 inch driver. :D

There has been a bit of discussion about the PB13U in sealed mode, so I'd like to clarify our design goals for this alignment.

The real beauty of the sealed alignment comes from its ability to (potentially) deliver a broad F6 bandwidth and a 2nd order roll-off, both of which can complement the acoustic transfer function (aka room gain) of a smaller room, resulting is a flat in-room response to ELFs.

Few sealed subwoofers on the market actually employ these design characteristics, instead opting for a higher Q alignment coupled with a high pass filter, both of which combine to result in a narrow F6 bandwidth and a steeper roll-off slope. This degrades transient response and hinders the ability of the subwoofer to take advantage of available room gain. In short, these designs perform more like a typical bass reflex alignment at the LF corner than they do a traditional sealed alignment.

The PB13U in sealed mode exhibits a low Q alignment, with an F6 bandwidth which is over an octave wide, and a 2nd order roll-off slope. Predictably, the phase response is quite benign and group delay is very low, remaining below 1 cycle down to 10 Hz. The power response is excellent, with almost no output compression at ELFs and usable output to well below 15 Hz. http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=22955&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0

In short, the PB13U in sealed mode behaves exactly like a traditional sealed alignment should, with all its attendant strengths and advantages. This mode is ideal for smaller enclosed rooms where the modal/pressure transition will occur around 35 Hz, with room gain starting below this frequency. The PB13U in sealed mode in this type of environment will exhibit flat in-room extension and usable output to near single digit frequencies.

This is definitely the case for me. In sealed mode I achieve the flattest response out of all the tuning points.

That is very interesting stuff, Ed. I only wish my room was one of those kind of rooms. In my room, sealed and ELF do not go hand-in-hand. Fortunately, the Ultra works perfectly in my area in 15 or 20hz mode. I happy to have the options available.

That is very interesting stuff, Ed. I only wish my room was one of those kind of rooms. In my room, sealed and ELF do not go hand-in-hand. Fortunately, the Ultra works perfectly in my area in 15 or 20hz mode. I happy to have the options available.

Exactly. Most enthusiasts will still purchase the Ultra for its high performance in the 20 Hz or 15 Hz reflex alignment, both of which are suitable for larger rooms where higher output is needed and room gain will not start until deeper frequencies and will also typically be less aggressive than in a smaller room, averaging 5-7 dB/octave rather than 9-11 dB/octave.

This is definitely the case for me. In sealed mode I achieve the flattest response out of all the tuning points.

That is also the case in one of Ron Stimpson's smaller theater rooms - sealed mode is flat to below 10 Hz with no rising response anywhere in the pass band.

Craig,

I noticed that the ED A2-300 was rated exceptionally high for HT compared to anything else near it's price range. Is it really better than the likes of the HSU VTF2-MK3 and PB12-NSD for much less money if just being used for HT duties? If so, why is that? Deeper, louder, etc?

Thanks in advance.

Craig,

I noticed that the ED A2-300 was rated exceptionally high for HT compared to anything else near it's price range. Is it really better than the likes of the HSU VTF2-MK3 and PB12-NSD for much less money if just being used for HT duties? If so, why is that? Deeper, louder, etc?

Thanks in advance.

I believe the A-Sub (cheaper, production due to start again in Nov) was stated to be better for HT use. I asked a similar question a few days ago. Check this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11580473&postcount=2530

A Sub was 40 for HT and 45 for Music. A2-300 was 44 for HT and 39 for music. They are basically the opposite, with the ED better for HT and A-Sub excelling for music. Hopefully Craig chimes in later today with an answer to my original question.

This mode is ideal for smaller enclosed rooms where the modal/pressure transition will occur around 35 Hz, with room gain starting below this frequency. The PB13U in sealed mode in this type of environment will exhibit flat in-room extension and usable output to near single digit frequencies.

How small of a room are we talking about? What has SVS determined in labs? When you say 35hz model/pressure transition, do you mean when the 1/2 wavelength of 35hz (~16') lands on the largest axial dimension? In other words, when 35hz is the lowest room mode? So... ~<1800 cuft?

How small of a room are we talking about? What has SVS determined in labs? When you say 35hz model/pressure transition, do you mean when the 1/2 wavelength of 35hz (~16') lands on the largest axial dimension? In other words, when 35hz is the lowest room mode? So... ~<1800 cuft?


Yes, exactly. Below that wavelength, the room won't support standing waves and transitions from a modal to a pressure response. We classify rooms this size (longest axial dim ~16 feet) to be on the small side.

The extent to which any room will exhibit room gain is a function of its size, layout and boundary integrity. A perfectly rigid sealed vessel will support a 2nd order transfer function from a monopole subwoofer, but few rooms resemble a perfect vessel in reality. Most rooms support anywhere from 5-10 dB/octave of room gain, but we've seen small enclosed rooms with rigid boundaries approach a 2nd order function.

The real beauty of the sealed alignment comes from its ability to (potentially) deliver a broad F6 bandwidth and a 2nd order roll-off, both of which can complement the acoustic transfer function (aka room gain) of a smaller room, resulting is a flat in-room response to ELFs.

Few sealed subwoofers on the market actually employ these design characteristics, instead opting for a higher Q alignment coupled with a high pass filter, both of which combine to result in a narrow F6 bandwidth and a steeper roll-off slope. This degrades transient response and hinders the ability of the subwoofer to take advantage of available room gain. In short, these designs perform more like a typical bass reflex alignment at the LF corner than they do a traditional sealed alignment.

The PB13U in sealed mode exhibits a low Q alignment, with an F6 bandwidth which is over an octave wide, and a 2nd order roll-off slope. Predictably, the phase response is quite benign and group delay is very low, remaining below 1 cycle down to 10 Hz. The power response is excellent, with almost no output compression at ELFs and usable output to well below 15 Hz. http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=22955&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0

In short, the PB13U in sealed mode behaves exactly like a traditional sealed alignment should, with all its attendant strengths and advantages. This mode is ideal for smaller enclosed rooms where the modal/pressure transition will occur around 35 Hz, with room gain starting below this frequency. The PB13U in sealed mode in this type of environment will exhibit flat in-room extension and usable output to near single digit frequencies.



That's quite a design accomplishment regarding phase and output response, if a vented alignment with ports sealed can be made to behave exactly like a traditional sealed aligment. :cool: Traditional sealed subs roll off at 6db-12db per octave while conventional vented alignments show 18-24db rolloffs. From the jist of your comments, "exactly like a traditional sealed sub" means its output in-room and not all other aspects?

I note from the AVtalk graphs that a significant component of THD below 30hz consists of 3rd order HD unlike the lower amounts of 2nd order HD found in many sealed subs...which I presume is a consequence of this hybrid design. Many people, though not all, can detect odd order harmonic distortion in the 20-30hz zone and even low amounts of odd order HD will sound more offensive than higher amounts of even order harmonics. Needless to say the top sealed subs exhibit very low harmonics of all orders.

With respect to transient response, it will be interesting to test whether a 750W amp in a larger enclosure with sealed vents will be on par with a 2500W Class D amp with presumably better dampening factor in a smaller sealed enclosure using a similar sized driver.

Craig,

I noticed that the ED A2-300 was rated exceptionally high for HT compared to anything else near it's price range. Is it really better than the likes of the HSU VTF2-MK3 and PB12-NSD for much less money if just being used for HT duties? If so, why is that? Deeper, louder, etc?

Thanks in advance.

The A2-300 likes to go deep and loud ... it is a great HT value, and overall, an excellent performer.

Keep in mind, though, that HT will also, to some people, require good music reproduction.

But for strict extension, and power, it is about equal to the more expensive Hsu and SVS products.

That's quite a design accomplishment regarding phase and output response, if a vented alignment with ports sealed can be made to behave exactly like a traditional sealed aligment. :cool: Traditional sealed subs roll off at 6db-12db per octave while conventional vented alignments show 18-24db rolloffs. From the jist of your comments, "exactly like a traditional sealed sub" means its output in-room and not all other aspects?

I note from the AVtalk graphs that a significant component of THD below 30hz consists of 3rd order HD unlike the lower amounts of 2nd order HD found in many sealed subs...which I presume is a consequence of this hybrid design. Many people, though not all, can detect odd order harmonic distortion in the 20-30hz zone and even low amounts of odd order HD will sound more offensive than higher amounts of even order harmonics. Needless to say the top sealed subs exhibit very low harmonics of all orders.

With respect to transient response, it will be interesting to test whether a 750W amp in a larger enclosure with sealed vents will be on par with a 2500W Class D amp with presumably better dampening factor in a smaller sealed enclosure using a similar sized driver.

A bass reflex subwoofer (without additional high pass filtering) will roll-off at 24 dB/octave. Steeper roll-off profiles are typical due to the common use of high pass filters to protect the woofer from bottoming below Fb. FWIW, the PB13U does not employ any high pass filtering below any of the reflex tuning points, thus improving system transient response. The 20 Hz tune is critically damped, and the 15 Hz and 10 Hz tunes are slightly overdamped (i.e., they gently roll-off before Fb), which also improves transient response.

A sealed subwoofer without a high pass filter or other electronic intervention (like a limiter) will roll-off at 12 dB/octave. The width and shape of the LF knee is a function of the system Q.

An low Q overdamped alignment will exhibit a wide/gentle transition to the 2nd order roll-off, which minimizes changes in the phase response and ringing at system resonance, and keeps GD low. The overall shape of the frequency response, and the selected corner frequency of the subwoofer as it relates to the onset of room gain in a small to mid-size room is what I was referring to by a "traditional sealed subwoofer".

The idea is to allow the subwoofer to behave like a traditional sealed alignment rather than forcing it to remain flat to a relatively deep frequency (say 25 Hz) with EQ, and then truncating the response with a high pass filter, which essentially makes the subwoofer behave more like a bass reflex design with respect to phase response, transient response, group delay, etc. It also hinders the subwoofer's ability to take advantage of available room gain.

Transient response is a function of the frequency response, not the type of amplifier employed or the enclosure size. The impulse response, phase response (and the derived GD curve), energy/time spectral decay chart, and the frequency response are all interrelated mathematically, indeed all of AVTalk's data is derived from the impulse response.

A bass reflex subwoofer (without additional high pass filtering) will roll-off at 24 dB/octave. Steeper roll-off profiles are typical due to the common use of high pass filters to protect the woofer from bottoming below Fb. FWIW, the PB13U does not employ any high pass filtering below any of the reflex tuning points, thus improving system transient response. The 20 Hz tune is critically damped, and the 15 Hz and 10 Hz tunes are slightly overdamped (i.e., they gently roll-off before Fb), which also improves transient response.

A sealed subwoofer without a high pass filter or other electronic intervention (like a limiter) will roll-off at 12 dB/octave. The width and shape of the LF knee is a function of the system Q.

An low Q overdamped alignment will exhibit a wide/gentle transition to the 2nd order roll-off, which minimizes changes in the phase response and ringing at system resonance, and keeps GD low. The overall shape of the frequency response, and the selected corner frequency of the subwoofer as it relates to the onset of room gain in a small to mid-size room is what I was referring to by a "traditional sealed subwoofer".

The idea is to allow the subwoofer to behave like a traditional sealed alignment rather than forcing it to remain flat to a relatively deep frequency (say 25 Hz) with EQ, and then truncating the response with a high pass filter, which essentially makes the subwoofer behave more like a bass reflex design with respect to phase response, transient response, group delay, etc. It also hinders the subwoofer's ability to take advantage of available room gain.

Transient response is a function of the frequency response, not the type of amplifier employed or the enclosure size. The impulse response, phase response (and the derived GD curve), energy/time spectral decay chart, and the frequency response are all interrelated mathematically, indeed all of AVTalk's data is derived from the impulse response.
Haha I love audio when the speak gets all double dutch with a left hook. As long as the PB13U sounds good with my music.:D

John

Those are impressive design characteristics and results. I'm looking forward to listening and comparing the Ultra-13 with several other subs with several friends with the right amount of libations this Sunday.

I've always viewed transient response as the ability of the audio component be it speaker, sub, mic etc. to accurately reproduce or follow a high amplitude rapidly decaying peak level signal and not just as a function of frequency response. Not all components do it well without introducing noise or non-linear distortion or other artifacts.

The role of the amp continues to be an underappreciated part of subwoofer performance. A fast responding amplifier with superior power handling and slew rate directly effects transient response of the subwoofer since it influences how fast the driver can respond to the rapidly changing signal. Generally speaking a more powerful amp with better slew rate and damping factor will allow a sub to exhibit superior transient response or at least not limit its potential in this area.

Its good to see that SVS has gone with a beefier power supply but if we are talking sealed alignments 750W appears on the lean side but again I must preface my remark not having had the opportunity to hear it. From the perspective of a vented alignment it looks like a reasonable choice for the larger enclosure.

Well I bit the bullet and just bought the two B-stock PC13 ultras to go behind my left and right speakers. Got the future wifes ok, to at least give it a shot! :)

I know they will out gun my single f113 as far as SPL goes, but my main interest is how articulate they will be compared to the f113 for music. If that's at least equal, and according to craigsubs testing, it will be, I will be selling off my f113. If not I guess I will return the PC13's.

Funny, after all these years in this hobby, I never thought I would own cylinder subs, and not just because of the WAF, as I never really liked the look of them either. But with floor space (and $) being an issue as well as weight (even the 130lb. f113 is/was a bit much), it was really my only choice this time. The dual PC13 subs will look better symmetrically speaking at least too (they are quite tall though, but at least not as tall as my mains).

I'm looking forward to seeing how they perform compared to the f113 for sure!

MF

Generally speaking a more powerful amp with better slew rate and damping factor will allow a sub to exhibit superior transient response or at least not limit its potential in this area.

Amplifier slew rate in respect of subwoofer performance! Boy, that is a new one! :eek:

Amplifier damping factor is very small part of speaker transient response, IMO. The speakers own damping factor together with amplifier slew rate (and rise time) will govern system transient response.

Although I believe that the speakers own mechanical damping will be the dominating factor here. Just my 0.20 cents. :)

Well I bit the bullet and just bought the two B-stock PC13 ultras to go behind my left and right speakers. Got the future wifes ok, to at least give it a shot! :)

I know they will out gun my single f113 as far as SPL goes, but my main interest is how articulate they will be compared to the f113 for music. If that's at least equal, and according to craigsubs testing, it will be, I will be selling off my f113. If not I guess I will return the PC13's.

Funny, after all these years in this hobby, I never thought I would own cylinder subs, and not just because of the WAF, as I never really liked the look of them either. But with floor space (and $) being an issue as well as weight (even the 130lb. f113 is/was a bit much), it was really my only choice this time. The dual PC13 subs will look better symmetrically speaking at least too (they are quite tall though, but at least not as tall as my mains).

I'm looking forward to seeing how they perform compared to the f113 for sure!

MF

MF ... Looking forward to reading your thoughts when you compare the Ultras to the Fathom ... I am glad you are making your own comparison between the 2 ... both subs are outstanding.

MF ... Looking forward to reading your thoughts when you compare the Ultras to the Fathom ... I am glad you are making your own comparison between the 2 ... both subs are outstanding.
Thanks Craig, I figured it would be best to hear and judge for myself. If the PC13 does indeed make the cut SQ wise to my ears, that would be really cool. I like the idea of the extra headroom for HT, as well as the potential to run stereo subs if I choose too (instead of just using the mono sub/LFE output from my processor). If the PC13's win out, I still may just use the mono output, but it's good to have options.

Thanks for all your dedication and work behind all these tests you do. I know you love to do it, but it really is quite a resource for the rest of us too, and it is truly appreciated!!

MF

Amplifier damping factor is very small part of speaker transient response, IMO. The speakers own damping factor together with amplifier slew rate (and rise time) will govern system transient response.

Although I believe that the speakers own mechanical damping will be the dominating factor here. Just my 0.20 cents. :)

Good points. Damping is the dominant factor and the amps slew rate will be a significant influence on just how well the sub will respond to the abrupt changes in peak signal. Its surprising how many people just attribute the subs ability to deliver superior transient response to strictly to driver characteristics and damping. Transient response is actually a function of accuracy in relation to time rather than frequency. As such any component in the system affecting time domain parameters should also impact transient response.

Anyway we digress, the point of the amp discussion was in relation to how well the Ultra can perform in this area compared to sealed subs with more powerful amps. It now looks like several people will be determining how well the Ultra-13 stacks up in "musicality" with the top sealed subs. :cool:

Once again we seem to be mixing up 'transient response' and 'the way subwoofer reproduces transient signals'. They are two very different things. ;)

Usually people mean the latter but say the first. That goes to the discussion in this thread, too.

craig, are you going to be doing any other DIY designs ?

craig, are you going to be doing any other DIY designs ?

I would like to try a couple of ported designs. Too bad Stevenn stopped making sonotubes ... One of his with that PE amp and an SDX-15 looks really good.

The other idea is to see if I can get my brother's engineer to build a nice Baltic Birch cabinet for me.

Looking at the models, the SDX-15, PE amp, 8 cubic foot box and a 33 inch long, 6 inch diameter port should be hitting about 106 dB @ 16 Hz, and getting more powerful from that point up.

A 24 x 24 x 36 inch box, 3/4 inch on sides, 1.5 inches front baffle, looks like 9.9 feet internal, less driver and port .. so about right.

Craig,

You mentioned in another thread about that PE amp that you were going to try running it on the Dual sealed box on WOW. I was wondering if you could (please) do a nice little graph comparing an EP2500 running the box and the PE amp running your WOW scene. I would like to see how the 18hz rumble filter effects it.

I am going to be putting a sub(s) in someone house in a few weeks, and was contemplating either a single CDX in a 10' box or 2 seperate sealed boxes under the mains...

Thanks

Craig,

You mentioned in another thread about that PE amp that you were going to try running it on the Dual sealed box on WOW. I was wondering if you could (please) do a nice little graph comparing an EP2500 running the box and the PE amp running your WOW scene. I would like to see how the 18hz rumble filter effects it.

I am going to be putting a sub(s) in someone house in a few weeks, and was contemplating either a single CDX in a 10' box or 2 seperate sealed boxes under the mains...

Thanks

The PE amp could not handle the 2 ohm load .... when pushed, it shut down.

So I guess if I was going to run 2 SDXs off 1 PE amp I would have to wire 1 VC only....

Didn't someone mention a power conditioner that had 12v triggers on it? That would get my by the auto-on feature.... but I would loose any PEQ unless I added a BFD or DEQ or the like.

Hmmm decisions decisions

Do you still feel the PE amp is "sonically" better?

I might have to borrow one of the CDXs and toss it into my sonotube, then hook up the PE amp and I can test it for you :)

Mike

So I guess if I was going to run 2 SDXs off 1 PE amp I would have to wire 1 VC only....

Didn't someone mention a power conditioner that had 12v triggers on it? That would get my by the auto-on feature.... but I would loose any PEQ unless I added a BFD or DEQ or the like.

Hmmm decisions decisions

Do you still feel the PE amp is "sonically" better?

I might have to borrow one of the CDXs and toss it into my sonotube, then hook up the PE amp and I can test it for you :)

Mike

I did think the PE amp sounded better ... and think it would make a great amp for a single driver sub. Did you mean borrow an SDX-15 ?

Sounds ok to me.

Speaking of subs, Chad disappeared again ... he said he would be getting back to me directly, and nothing.

Maybe the harassment about the eD sub being a lot bigger than the Conquest made him PO'ed ... :D

craig, are you going to be doing any other DIY designs ?

If he lived close to me I would gladly volunteer my design. But most likely it will suck compared to the rest of the subs his tested :o:D

Amplifier slew rate in respect of subwoofer performance! Boy, that is a new one! :eek:

No kidding. I'm no expert, but I can't imagine the low frequency content a subwoofer is typically fed would require much in the way of slew rate. Unless I'm sorely mistaken (always a possibility!), audio amps act as a voltage source (rather than current) and are driving an active load with a considerable amount of inductance in the case of a big subwoofer driver. So I don't think 50V/uS slew rate is going to convince that big cone (and VC) to move any faster than it "wants" to.

If he lived close to me I would gladly volunteer my design. But most likely it will suck compared to the rest of the subs his tested :o:D

Iggy ... I appreciate the thought. We all know no one ever did a front firing driver and port combo in a rectangular box before you came along ... :p:D

I'm down for that!!!!

I wanna see what 140dB sounds like from a 15" driver :D

A small update on the Def Tech Trinity ... The lower active driver had developed a nasty rattle about a week ago. It is not a blown voice coil, and is likely damage caused in shipping that took some time to become apparent.

Def Tech is sending a new driver ... so 2 things:

1. Pics will be taken of the interior and the driver. They are pretty impressive.

2. The unit will be re-tested, to make sure it did not warrant a higher rating.

. . . So I don't think 50V/uS slew rate is going to convince that big cone (and VC) to move any faster than it "wants" to.

In fact, the ability to dump current into the voice coil quickly is what makes leading edge transients sharp rather than rounded off.

A small update on the Def Tech Trinity ... The lower active driver had developed a nasty rattle about a week ago. It is not a blown voice coil, and is likely damage caused in shipping that took some time to become apparent.

Sounds like Def Tech is taking good care of you? How were they to deal with?

craig, what was the ultra flat down to +/- 3db ?

craig, what was the ultra flat down to +/- 3db ?

You can see GP results on AVTalk and SVS's own site ... as they match, I think that is pretty safe to say they are accurate.

In our room, we were flat to 17 Hz, using the 20 Hz tuning.

We have not even tried the 15 Hz tuning yet.

Sounds like Def Tech is taking good care of you? How were they to deal with?

They were excellent. I even had a real "DUH!!!" moment with the Tech.

It went something like this...

Craig: "The leads from the amp to the drivers are somewhat short, and hard to work with."

Tech: "This is true, unless you take out the passive radiator next to the driver. It should be accessible very easily from there."

Craig: "(After 10 seconds of silence trying to regain composure) ... Ummmmmmmm ... Yeah ! I only BLANKED around with this for 20 minutes. What kind of genius am I for not having thought of THAT?????"

Tech: "It's OK sir. We all have bad days."

I got the "sir" treatment. Can you see this guy's face, having to explain this to me ? :o:eek::D

The new driver is on they way. Any additional Homer Simpson behaviour will be reported. :rolleyes:

You can see GP results on AVTalk and SVS's own site ... as they match, I think that is pretty safe to say they are accurate.

In our room, we were flat to 17 Hz, using the 20 Hz tuning.

We have not even tried the 15 Hz tuning yet.

that's cool. not sure if you listened to music in the 10hz mode but i'd be curious to see if the ultra loses any of it's musical qualities in 10hz mode

and does the trinity use any cabinet bracing?

Def Tech is sending a new driver ... so 2 things:

1. Pics will be taken of the interior and the driver. They are pretty impressive.



Very cool Craig!
Can't wait for the pics.:)

In fact, the ability to dump current into the voice coil quickly is what makes leading edge transients sharp rather than rounded off.
True, but subwoofers do not need to be 'fast'. 100 Hz or below is very easy for any kind of amplifier when it comes to slew rate.

Iggy ... I appreciate the thought. We all know no one ever did a front firing driver and port combo in a rectangular box before you came along ... :p:D

Ya so all front firing subs have the same performance :o and all down firing ones to :o:p Hey I wouldn't expect less from you anyways :D

Have you figured out how alan got to 180.5 dbs with 1 sub or are you still modeling it :p

If anyone else is getting sick of the posts like the one above, you might find this link useful. re: global ignore

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/profile.php?do=editlist

Hey craigsub, do you plan to review the Outlaw LFM-1 EX (http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmEX.html) sub? Just wondering. :)

I'd also be interested in seeing how the Outlaw performs in your comparison. It was one I looked into.

The PE amp could not handle the 2 ohm load .... when pushed, it shut down.
Hey Craig, did the amp get real hot and shut down OR was it just from the protection circuity??? Just curious as I have been looking at the PE amps for a while now. Thanks for any info you can give me. Have a great day Craig.

Hey Craig, did the amp get real hot and shut down OR was it just from the protection circuity??? Just curious as I have been looking at the PE amps for a while now. Thanks for any info you can give me. Have a great day Craig.

It was the protection circuitry ... and not really a surprise. The SDX-15 pair in parallel will dip below 2 ohms in some spots.

Hey craigsub, do you plan to review the Outlaw LFM-1 EX (http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmEX.html) sub? Just wondering. :)

I have emailed the Outlaw guys in the past, and did not hear back. I will try again after this weekend's event. :)

True, but subwoofers do not need to be 'fast'. 100 Hz or below is very easy for any kind of amplifier when it comes to slew rate.

For music applications especially in sealed alignments greater control is important in order to reproduce that characteristic tight bass sound, ergo the need for a more capable powerful amp with wide fast bandwidth and superior power handling characteristics. I've tested many separate amplifiers on a pair of passive bass bins over the years and generally found amps with high power, wide bandwidth and excellent damping and slew rates (min 60mV, such as the Bryston SST amps) produce the tightest distortion free bass with little chance of clipping during fast transients.

A group of 4 , will be comparing 3 or 4 sealed subs and the Ultra13 with some loud demanding music this Sunday to see how well they perform with the attack and decay of aggressive bass notes and drum hits.

dbl post

Craig did you get your Conquest or the review for the ED sub :). I'm willing to bet one of these two are going to cramp on everyone's game.

I've tested many separate amplifiers on a pair of passive bass bins over the years and generally found amps with high power, wide bandwidth and excellent damping and slew rates (min 60mV, such as the Bryston SST amps) produce the tightest distortion free bass with little chance of clipping during fast transients.
What kind of subwoofers were they more specifically? I agree that power/headroom is always a good thing but the slew rate is a different thing. If the slew rate wouldn't be sufficient for producing 50 Hz signal, the amp simply couldn't produce 10 kHz or even 1 kHz signal properly. :)

Craig,
I would like to see you get a "real" amp on those SDX's. They are woefully underpowered right now. They are probably getting about 400 watts apiece and are probably not even close to giving all they've got. I'm thinking atleast 1000w to each should be about right:). C'mon you need that extra 4db's.

So I don't think 50V/uS slew rate is going to convince that big cone (and VC) to move any faster than it "wants" to.

Not to derail the thread but I agree. If the driver can match the rise time of any given sound wave then it's moving as fast as it needs to to reproduce that sound wave.

If a given driver can reproduce any given sound wave then it's moving as quick as it needs to to reproduce that sound wave.

Just my 0.020. :D

What kind of subwoofers were they more specifically? I agree that power/headroom is always a good thing but the slew rate is a different thing. If the slew rate wouldn't be sufficient for producing 50 Hz signal, the amp simply couldn't produce 10 kHz or even 1 kHz signal properly. :)

Richard, I was referring to totem shaman bass bin not a subwoofer per se but it functions much like one. Here is a shot of the pair in my listening room. http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/JohnPalumbo/dcp_1141.jpg The lower enclosures are good down to 16hz+/-3db crossed at 220hz to the upper enclclosure. They contain 10" flat cone 28lb Dynaudio woofers with a 3" voicecoil. I'm currently driving each with a pair of Bryston 4BSSTs bridged mono to output over 1000wpc @ 4ohms. I've tried them with several other tube and SS amps and found they performed best ie. tightest undistorted unclipped bass with this amp configuration. The bass is noticeabley looser with other amps though as you rightly pointed out :cool: its not just the slew rate, the other specs are also important. Interestingly the bass bins are ported in the rear and I plug them regularly. It doesn't make them sealed but the bass is audibly different. The rear 3" port is tuned at 30hz.

I won't be testing those with the Ultra13 though that would also be cool to do. You can see why the hybrid Ultra has got my curiosity, which is why I volunteered to haul my heavy FL113 with its 2500w amp ( and maybe a DD-18 with its 1250w D amp) to Steve's (PBC) for a side by side comparison. We are trying to round up a Paradigm Servo v12 as well but will be time constrained to 4 hours for the sessions. That should be long enough for the group to form some opinions.

Richard, I was referring to totem shaman bass bin not a subwoofer per se but it functions much like one. Here is a shot of the pair in my listening room. The lower enclosures are good down to 16hz+/-3db crossed at 220hz to the upper enclclosure. They contain 10" flat cone 28lb Dynaudio woofers with a 3" voicecoil. I'm currently driving each with a pair of Bryston 4BSSTs bridged mono to output over 1000wpc @ 4ohms.
Than you for the explanation. Are you using the Bryston for the bass bins only, or full range?

Jakeman,

Gorgeous speakers,the Shaman is quite a beast. Bryston power amps are champs at driving bass sections and subs.

Do the beak cones really improve the sound? :p I have the ROKK and Tabu and got a set of beak cones to "improve" the sound...I have not noticed any change at all!

I see Totem shows all tower speakers with these beak cones...

Craig did you get your Conquest or the review for the ED sub :). I'm willing to bet one of these two are going to cramp on everyone's game.

The objective part of the eD review is done ... we got over 112 dB at 20 Hz clean, and the unit just stopped getting louder. Definitely Amp limited.

That was at 2 meters outdoors, too.

Now ... how to get a 435 pound sub inside.

I am still waiting for Chad on the Epik subs ... :)

Craig,
I would like to see you get a "real" amp on those SDX's. They are woefully underpowered right now. They are probably getting about 400 watts apiece and are probably not even close to giving all they've got. I'm thinking atleast 1000w to each should be about right:). C'mon you need that extra 4db's.

Agreed ... just trying to find the right amp. We need something that can deliver 2000 watts into 2 ohms without costing a fortune.

Agreed ... just trying to find the right amp. We need something that can deliver 2000 watts into 2 ohms without costing a fortune.
Unfortunately there are no such amps available. Your best bet is to buy one MONSTER amp or multiple smaller/cheaper ones like the EP2500.

Unfortunately there are no such amps available. Your best bet is to buy one MONSTER amp or multiple smaller/cheaper ones like the EP2500.

In theory, the Crown XTi-4000 is close, at 1600 watts, and I can buy it for around $700.

After the GTG, I hope to get some time to talk to my brother's guys about suggestions - they are also Crown dealers, and have measured a few amps.

Than you for the explanation. Are you using the Bryston for the bass bins only, or full range?

In bridged mode full range to allow max. power bandwidth at high volumes. I also listen to them wired separately to the 4 amplifier modules in the 2 amps for 500wpc to each enclosure. In either setup I have never seen the amp lights clip red.

Jakeman,

Gorgeous speakers,the Shaman is quite a beast. Bryston power amps are champs at driving bass sections and subs.

Do the beak cones really improve the sound? :p I have the ROKK and Tabu and got a set of beak cones to "improve" the sound...I have not noticed any change at all!

I see Totem shows all tower speakers with these beak cones...

Hi Ear,

I agree with you on the beaks. They are just a conversation piece...like...WWII German shell casings I picked up in Belgium etc. ;) The only time I thought I heard a difference was when I placed them on a horizontal Model One Signature Centre. When I talk to Vince he swears by them including where to place them on the Shamans, but I think they are just silly audio jewellery. :rolleyes: I wish he would stop selling them since the rest of his products are first rate. I haven't heard the Rokk or Tabu but they must be very nice sounding. I use 7 Model Ones in one of my HTs along with the Velo 18s and JL113.

In bridged mode full range to allow max. power bandwidth at high volumes. I also listen to them wired separately to the 4 amplifier modules in the 2 amps for 500wpc to each enclosure. In either setup I have never seen the amp lights clip red.
Ok, that's what I suspected. It would be fun and interesting to change only the bass bin amplifier but keep the Bryston on the mains all the time. It would reveal if the subjective difference you claimed to hear, came about because the woofers were getting some Bryston power or because the rest of the system (upper-end of the speakers) was getting it. I'm inclined to think it was the latter. ;)

It was the protection circuitry ... and not really a surprise. The SDX-15 pair in parallel will dip below 2 ohms in some spots.

Thanks a bunch Craig. I really do appreciate all of your hard work and you have always answered my questions. You have been a big help.

Ok, that's what I suspected. It would be fun and interesting to change only the bass bin amplifier but keep the Bryston on the mains all the time. It would reveal if the subjective difference you claimed to hear, came about because the woofers were getting some Bryston power or because the rest of the system (upper-end of the speakers) was getting it. I'm inclined to think it was the latter. ;)

Might be since much of the bass we hear comes from the speakers which is why blending is so important. Avoiding clipping the transients is just as important in the mid range and higher frequencies though they don't demand nearly the power as the bass bins. Its a good idea for a sound..err..reality.. check. :D

Might be since much of the bass we hear comes from the speakers which is why blending is so important. Avoiding clipping the transients is just as important in the mid range and higher frequencies though they don't demand nearly the power as the bass bins. Its a good idea for a sound..err..reality.. check. :D
Exactly! If only more people would understand that it's not just the subwoofer that makes the bass/system sound good and tight. A lone subwoofer can't ever sound 'fast' or 'punchy'. It always has to have good upper bunk friends so to speak. :D

Richard, we're talking about the leading edge of a transient, not a sinusoidal waveform. On things like a drum strike, we're trying to get the woofer diaphram to change positions almost instantly -- that requires a brief but very quick surge of current.

I've seen it argued that a slew rate of 20V@msec is all one actually needs -- but my experience agrees with John's that 60V@msec is a number I see on amps I like the sound of.

Richard, we're talking about the leading edge of a transient, not a sinusoidal waveform. On things like a drum strike, we're trying to get the woofer diaphram to change positions almost instantly -- that requires a brief but very quick surge of current.

No. :) You are not realizing that the subwoofer plays only low frequencies, mainly under 80-100 Hz. You are thinking that the subwoofer is producing the whole spectrum, hence the need for quick reaction. That is not correct and it is probably one of the greatest misconceptions when it comes to subwoofers.

No matter what kind of 'transient' (or any music for that matter), is always based on sinusoidal waveform. There are just thousands and millions of them, mixed up all together. That's how complex sounds are produced. If this wouldn't be true, the Fourier analysis/transform wouldn't work. Square wave, triangle wave etc. are naturally not sine wave based, but no real music contains those.

So when a subwoofer is producing only <100 Hz frequencies, it doesn't _need_ to move any faster than it needs to move to produce a 100 Hz sine wave. If it moves any faster than that, then it's producing 200 Hz, 300 Hz, 1000 Hz and so on. There is no fast or slow 100 Hz; it's always the same. And if it is fast enough to produce 100 Hz, then it certainly is more than fast enough to produce any frequency lower than 100 Hz; because they all are slower than 100 Hz. Clear as mud, eh?

An instant sound i.e. 'transient' can not be produced perfectly unless there are also higher frequencies in the mix. Only high frequencies are 'fast', low frequencies are always 'slow', no matter how fast the drummer hits his pedal.

I agree to a point....

What about transitioning from 80hz tone to a 60hz tone and how "quickly" a sub can do that? OR playing both tones simultaneously?

I agree to a point....

What about transitioning from 80hz tone to a 60hz tone and how "quickly" a sub can do that? OR playing both tones simultaneously?
A speaker can produce simultaneously as many tones as it is necessary. It wouldn't work otherwise.

The input signal defines how quickly notes change, not the subwoofer. Fastest possible transition will be when the second note starts right after the other. Otherwise they would overlap. And again if the subwoofer is quickly enough to play a 100 Hz tone, it will be fast enough to play any note lower than that.

Both overhang/ringing and intermodulation distortion relate to these, but they don't have anything to do with how "fast" subwoofer can play a 100 Hz note.

A speaker can produce simultaneously as many tones as it is necessary. It wouldn't work otherwise.

The input signal defines how quickly notes change, not the subwoofer. Fastest possible transition will be when the second note starts right after the other. Otherwise they would overlap. And again if the subwoofer is quickly enough to play a 100 Hz tone, it will be fast enough to play any note lower than that.

Both overhang/ringing and intermodulation distortion relate to these, but they don't have anything to do with how "fast" subwoofer can play a 100 Hz note.

why do they say that bandpass subwoofers have that "one note" effect ?

why do they say that bandpass subwoofers have that "one note" effect ?
Because many cheap (and even some expensive) bandpass subwoofers have a large peak in their frequency response. The frequency response rolls off along both sides of this peak, so it sounds like the subwoofer is playing only "one note". Naturally no subwoofer is this worse, but certainly some can efficiently produce only a very narrow bandwidth.

Naturally it doesn't have to be like this, as the Onix BMF-1 and X-plosive subwoofers will prove some day. :)

A speaker can produce simultaneously as many tones as it is necessary. It wouldn't work otherwise.

The input signal defines how quickly notes change, not the subwoofer. Fastest possible transition will be when the second note starts right after the other. Otherwise they would overlap. And again if the subwoofer is quickly enough to play a 100 Hz tone, it will be fast enough to play any note lower than that.

Both overhang/ringing and intermodulation distortion relate to these, but they don't have anything to do with how "fast" subwoofer can play a 100 Hz note.
It is suppose to play as many tones as necessary, but why is one sub better at seperation than another? What keeps the woofer from muddying up the different notes?

Do you believe there is significance in impulse response? Why or why not?

The SVS PB10 has a VERY flat frequency response. Does anyone here think it sounds as good for music as the Ultra 13 or a JL Fathom?

Craig, did you say you were using the Dayton 1000W? I have that now for testing my IB but I have read that it has a high pass filter at 18Hz, even through LFE.

There is a mod for it though, did you mod yours?

why do they say that bandpass subwoofers have that "one note" effect ?

Because many cheap (and even some expensive) bandpass subwoofers have a large peak in their frequency response. The frequency response rolls off along both sides of this peak, so it sounds like the subwoofer is playing only "one note". Naturally no subwoofer is this worse, but certainly some can efficiently produce only a very narrow bandwidth.

Naturally it doesn't have to be like this, as the Onix BMF-1 and X-plosive subwoofers will prove some day. :)


Thank you Richard. You are correct about the response of most bandpasses, although some of the even more blatant problems come from what those older examples did when you crank up the level. The one-note sound was and can be very real, just as there were many bad examples of ported subs in years past.

I'm a bit miffed to see this transient/attack debate pop up again, as I thought we've beaten this to death in the past and explained the reality. What most people don't realize is that if you took a system that included a well integrated, high quality subwoofer and a 3 way main speaker, we could adjust the midrange and tweeter and almost everyone would tell us the sound and tightness of the bass was changing!

That is not to say that the subwoofer doesn't contribute significantly to the subjective sound quality, but from a technical standpoint, fast movements are not a requirement. We do need a subwoofer to change when it is supposed to, and not add too much extra. Dynamic linearity plays a major part in this. If a subwoofer does not dynamically track the input signal, the reasons causing this deviation will tend to also affect everything else being simutaneously reproduced. This gets back to the need to have "enough" subwoofer for the majority of useage, where the best sounding subwoofer sounds like a horses backside if regularly overdriven. :rolleyes:

Craig, did you say you were using the Dayton 1000W? I have that now for testing my IB but I have read that it has a high pass filter at 18Hz, even through LFE.

There is a mod for it though, did you mod yours?

I bought one for the purposes of playing with it. It is only rated to 4 Ohms, and that seems like a pretty accurate rating.

I like the SQ, and it looks like a great choice for a 4 ohm and up subwoofer system.

For the dual SDX-15, it just won't "cut it" ... but I imagine it is GREAT on an IB system, especially with its inherent higher sensitivity.

I have not read of the 18 Hz filter ... but that is merely due to the fact that I have had the amp for 7 days, and have been swamped putting together this weekend's GTG.

It is suppose to play as many tones as necessary, but why is one sub better at seperation than another? What keeps the woofer from muddying up the different notes?

Do you believe there is significance in impulse response? Why or why not?

Richard eloquently explained about a subwoofer being fast or slow and I would like to add to it to try and address some of your questions.
Mathematically, the frequency response is simply a different representation of the impluse response. A fast subwoofer (one that can faithfully reporduce the input signal) will show a flat frequency response within it's operating range. In other words, a reverse transform from the frequency response to impluse response will show good impluse response too. A frequency response is derived using a fourier transform function on the impulse response.
A woofer that cannot faithfully reproduce the input signal tends to muddy it and there are several reasons. It can be due to electrical and mechanical limitations. After all, it is simply a transducer and how efficient is based on design parameters. Another point Richard noted "There is no fast or slow 100 Hz; it's always the same" is also so misunderstood and he explained it well.
One has to keep in mind, Hz means cycles per second. The denominator does not change. So 100Hz means 100 cycles per second, which means it is a constant and a woofer need not do any more than 100 cycles in one second to prove to be faster. Now to play it louder it need to push more and how quickly can it keep up trasients becomes key.
All this is common knowledge, but just reiterating thoughts to clarify.

Here (http://www.etfacoustic.com/basics.html) is some good material on related terms.

We do need a subwoofer to change when it is supposed to, and not add too much extra. Dynamic linearity plays a major part in this. If a subwoofer does not dynamically track the input signal, the reasons causing this deviation will tend to also affect everything else being simutaneously reproduced.

And all subwoofers differ to some degree in their ability to dynamically track the signal faithfully. How well the subwoofer system tracks the signal, especially fast changing high amplitude peak signals will show itself in both the time and frequency domains and manifest itself in the sonic character of each sub. The extent that a subwoofer excels or not in such signal tracking, and indeed how well it sounds, will depend significantly on alignment, driver specs, amp behaviour and crossover electronics.

The attack and decay times of music are indeed dynamic and not static. All music contains transient dynamics of various frequencies of differing amplitude with alternating attack and decay rates. Layer on the fact that frequencies have harmonic relationships with other frequencies contributes further to that dynamicism. Its one reason why measurment or discussion of sinsuoidal waves will only get us part way to understanding transient behaviour. When it comes to musical reproduction, measurment and stats are a useful starting point in understanding the subwoofer's performance but ultimately it must be balanced with listening impressions.

Richard eloquently explained about a subwoofer being fast or slow and I would like to add to it to try and address some of your questions.
Mathematically, the frequency response is simply a different representation of the impluse response. A fast subwoofer (one that can faithfully reporduce the input signal) will show a flat frequency response within it's operating range. In other words, a reverse transform from the frequency response to impluse response will show good impluse response too. A frequency response is derived using a fourier transform function on the impulse response.
A woofer that cannot faithfully reproduce the input signal tends to muddy it and there are several reasons. It can be due to electrical and mechanical limitations. After all, it is simply a transducer and how efficient is based on design parameters. Another point Richard noted "There is no fast or slow 100 Hz; it's always the same" is also so misunderstood and he explained it well.
One has to keep in mind, Hz means cycles per second. The denominator does not change. So 100Hz means 100 cycles per second, which means it is a constant and a woofer need not do any more than 100 cycles in one second to prove to be faster. Now to play it louder it need to push more and how quickly can it keep up trasients becomes key.
All this is common knowledge, but just reiterating thoughts to clarify.

i think the confusing thing is when richard said "the subwoofer" when i think he meant the driver because you can take a driver that does it's job well and stick it into a bad enclosure and you get the "muddy" effect

i think there was a mix up of semantics going on between cschang and richard

i think richard was talking about the science of a transducer or driver but using the term "subwoofer" and cschang was asking why some "subwoofers" sound "muddy"

i think the confusing thing is when richard said "the subwoofer" when i think he meant the driver because you can take a driver that does it's job well and stick it into a bad enclosure and you get the "muddy" effect

i think there was a mix up of semantics going on between cschang and richard

i think richard was talking about the science of a transducer or driver but using the term "subwoofer" and cschang was asking why some "subwoofers" sound "muddy"
Thanks otk.

In other words.....if the subwoofer is fed a 60hz tone and a 40hz tone at the same time, what part does the driver play in keeping those tones clearly delineated?

Also, I'm looking for thoughts on the importance of impulse response.

A speaker can produce simultaneously as many tones as it is necessary. It wouldn't work otherwise.

The input signal defines how quickly notes change, not the subwoofer. Fastest possible transition will be when the second note starts right after the other. Otherwise they would overlap. And again if the subwoofer is quickly enough to play a 100 Hz tone, it will be fast enough to play any note lower than that.

Both overhang/ringing and intermodulation distortion relate to these, but they don't have anything to do with how "fast" subwoofer can play a 100 Hz note.

We are getting well off the topic of this thread but anyway...

What is perhaps not generally appreciated is that nonlinearity in a system (be it amplifier, transducer or whatever) will give rise to harmonic distortion when presented with a single tone. When presented with two or more tones, that same nonlinearity will give rise to intermodulation distortion. In the case of loudspeakers, the Force Factor, Inductance etc that cause harmonic distortion also cause intermodulation distortion when a complex signal is applied. That is not to deny that there are few other additional factors that will cause some intermodulation distortion but the basic transducer nonlinearities will cause more than enough. While harmonic distortion is by definition harmonically related to the original signal and could therefore be considered somewhat benign, intermodulation distortions tend to be non-harmonically related and therefore may be much more obvious. I suspect that a lot of what is termed muddiness is due to the presence of these intermodulation products when replaying a real music signal. :)

And all subwoofers differ to some degree in their ability to dynamically track the signal faithfully. How well the subwoofer system tracks the signal, especially fast changing high amplitude peak signals will show itself in both the time and frequency domains and manifest itself in the sonic character of each sub. The extent that a subwoofer excels or not in such signal tracking, and indeed how well it sounds, will depend significantly on alignment, driver specs, amp behaviour and crossover electronics.

The attack and decay times of music are indeed dynamic and not static. All music contains transient dynamics of various frequencies of differing amplitude with alternating attack and decay rates.

I suspect that a stumbling point for all discussing are some of the terms we use and what is often implied. "Dynamic" still gives people a sense that speed is somehow a factor. I would suggest thinking of this more in terms of *consistency* at varying levels, not so much the changing between levels. That is more accurate to what I intended with my earlier comments.

The reality is that once you set a low pass filter (including that of the subwoofer) and a maximum level, you have just defined the maximum rate of change possible for the signal. There is no benefit to, nor will the system be required to change at a faster rate. The only way to make things change faster in this case is to increase the absolute level.

I suspect that a stumbling point for all discussing are some of the terms we use and what is often implied. "Dynamic" still gives people a sense that speed is somehow a factor. I would suggest thinking of this more in terms of *consistency* at varying levels, not so much the changing between levels. That is more accurate to what I intended with my earlier comments.

The reality is that once you set a low pass filter (including that of the subwoofer) and a maximum level, you have just defined the maximum rate of change possible for the signal. There is no benefit to, nor will the system be required to change at a faster rate. The only way to make things change faster in this case is to increase the absolute level.
Fast bass is a much misaligned term. I imagine that many people use the term "Fast" when describing subwoofer sound solely as a description of what they are hearing rather than the physical meaning. The context in which I find many friends use the term "Fast Bass" has to do with dynamics and tonality impressions.

Ddavidson

Fast bass as it pertains to woofer size is a myth. Bass, by definition, is slow. It's bandwidth limited and the sub is being fed a bandwidth limited signal so it's not required to move at near instantaneous speeds which a tweeter would ordinarily do.

Cheers.

Has anyone played Mannheim Steamroller Fresh Aire 8 - (song 6) on there system with good subwoofers. Being an newbie, I just heard this last night on a friends home system and it is incredible to test our a HT system. I think all of the dishes in the kitchen shattered.

Just thought I would ask.

Thanks.

I just received my PB-Ultra and have been very impressed so far. Here are some pictures of it next to an Aerial SW-12. Sorry about the pictures, there were some dust particles blowing around. Believe it or not, the pictures do not do justice to either subwoofer, both look much better in person and the SVS looks almost twice the size of the Aerial.

Thanks for the Aerials! :)
Dual SW-12's are ridiculous!! And highly recommended! :D :D :D
I got to experience carlm9's PB Ultra13 and it was moving so much air it moved my pant leg to and fro! What a beast.

I suspect that a stumbling point for all discussing are some of the terms we use and what is often implied. "Dynamic" still gives people a sense that speed is somehow a factor. I would suggest thinking of this more in terms of *consistency* at varying levels, not so much the changing between levels. That is more accurate to what I intended with my earlier comments.



I actually thought your earlier comment was very astute and right on the money. :cool: Interestingly when you talk of "consistency" I'm reminded of what Floyd Toole refers to as "constancy of performance" which was on his heirarchy of major electo-acoustical imperfections but one which he never really fleshed out very well .

We are getting a bit crossthreaded in this somewhat abstract discussion. Nature of the beast I suppose since much of this is still not as well understood as we would like to believe. If we could go back and forth with the math it would make it easier but speaking for myself it would take too long for me to...umm..get back up to speed. ;)

Since there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the whole woofer speed/transient response issue, I'd like to explain it more thoroughly. Sorry for the off-topic. :)

Let's start by saying that within the passband (above the low frequency cut-off and below the inductive roll-off) a driver is a constant acceleration device. This means that SPL is proportional to acceleration in the passband.

What is velocity then? It is the integral of acceleration over time. This means that as the time of acceleration (which is the period of the frequency) increases, the maximum velocity increases. This results in the doubling of velocity for every halving of frequency for a given cone area.

And because displacement is the integral of velocity over time, displacement quadruples for every halving of frequency (driver in free-air).

So what does this all mean then? It means that the higher SPL the driver generates, the higher acceleration and maximum velocity it has. The frequency of the signal has nothing to do with acceleration. 20 Hz or 100 Hz at the same SPL will require exactly identical acceleration and maximum velocity for a given cone area. The frequency of the signal only defines how many times per second the cone's direction of the motion needs to change.

It also means that the "fastest" (acceleration and velocity) cone is the cone moving the lowest (frequency) and the loudest. Also the smaller the radiating area, the longer distance the cone needs to move in order to have the same SPL as a larger radiating area. So a larger cone will have smaller acceleration and velocity at the same SPL and frequency.

- More SPL means higher acceleration and cone velocity
- Less cone area means higher acceleration and cone velocity
- Higher frequency means more frequent alterations of direction, but NOT higher acceleration and cone velocity for a given cone area and SPL

Q: What is a transient response?
A: Usually people mean "how well the driver/subwoofer reproduces transients (=A sudden and brief fluctuation in a sound)" when they talk about transient response. That is, by definition, slightly wrong. Transient response is the response of a system to a change from equilibrium. The more sudden the transient, the broader the bandwidth needed in the frequency response of the device involved. So the subwoofer having 20 - 100 Hz bandwidth, will have a better transient response than the subwoofer having 20 - 80 Hz or 30 - 90 Hz bandwidth.

Q: What is an impulse response?
A: The impulse response is the transient response of the device to a specific input (=impulse).

Q:What limits driver's high frequency reproduction?
A: The inductance (=resists sudden changes of the current). Not mass or Bl.

might as well post the link to the article you copy/pasted that from bro'....... :p

It is suppose to play as many tones as necessary, but why is one sub better at separation than another?
This is a really difficult and wide question. There is no single answer.

I'll list a few things that contribute:

-Room (boundary gain, room gain, standing waves, spectral decay etc.)
-The way subwoofer couples to the room
-Subwoofer's frequency response and spectral decay in the room
-Subwoofer's non-linear behaviour (total harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion etc.)
-Subwoofer's maximum SPL capability

might as well post the link to the article you copy/pasted that from bro'....... :p
What article?

Good shot at it Richard but your comments are more "driver" centric rather than describing it in relation to the subwoofer system as a whole. One of the better descriptions of this phenomena is buried in the JL support pages.




Transient Response

Transient response refers to the ability of the subwoofer system to reproduce quick changes (transients) in the program material accurately. This is often interpreted as "tightness" or "looseness" which is maybe a dangerous terminology since many people are more influenced by tonal characteristics when asked to qualify the "tightness" of the bass. Transient response is actually a function of accuracy in relation to time rather than frequency. In music, sounds like drum strikes and quick bass guitar pulses are good tests of a subwoofer system's transient performance. A system with good transient response will reproduce these sounds with clear, "tight" definition. A system with poor transient response tends to blur these sounds over time, due to the speaker's inability to stop and start quickly enough to react to the signal accurately.

It is generally accepted that an optimized sealed enclosure exhibits the best transient response characteristics. The control provided by the air-spring in a good sealed system contribute to generally outstanding transient behavior (at very high power levels, the increased distortion can overshadow this advantage, however.)

A ported enclosure can also achieve good transient behavior but never as good as an optimized sealed enclosure. It is possible, however, for a well-designed ported enclosure to have better transient response characteristics than sealed enclosures with higher Qtc's (above 1.0.) The specific alignment of the sealed and ported enclosures plays a huge role in determining the transient characteristics of each individual subwoofer system.

Single-Reflex bandpass designs can also have good transient characteristics if their bandwidth is fairly narrow, but again, not as good as an optimized sealed enclosure. As the bandwidth becomes wider, their transient response can degrade considerably.

Dual-Reflex designs generally exhibit inferior transient response characteristics when compared to the other designs. As with single-reflex designs, narrower bandwidths produce better transient performance than wider ones.

Good shot at it Richard but your comments are more "driver" centric rather than describing it in relation to the subwoofer system as a whole. One of the better descriptions of this phenomena is buried in the JL support pages.
I specifically tried to explain this difference. JL's description is a perfect example of the transient response most people talk about. But by definition, that is not exactly correct. That description contains much more things than the simple definition of the transient response. I guess people have just widened the original definition and now it doesn't exactly describe the original phenomenon anymore. It would be better to call that description 'transient behaviour' or 'transient performance', for example.

Hi Craig,

I’ve been enjoying reading this thread, thank you and to all those who have added some fantastic information.

Is there a thread regarding the GTG you are having this weekend?

Richard

Hi Craig,

I’ve been enjoying reading this thread, thank you and to all those who have added some fantastic information.

Is there a thread regarding the GTG you are having this weekend?

Richard

Richard ... Thanks for chiming in. We may actually get back to discussing what a subwoofer sounds like. The good news, we seem to finally have gotten away from using pictures of drivers as the barometer of performance. :cool:

If you get a chance, post pics of the subs you built ... the craftsmanship rivals anything I have seen anywhere. :)

There is no specific thread, yet. Maybe by Sunday ?

Craigsub:

have you ever considered doing a kit/review of the Q line from Fi Car Audio?

https://ssl.perfora.net/www.ficaraudio.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=1546f4a12bcd051/shopdata/0020_Q/product_overview.shopscript

I've heard it has monster amounts of sound quality with pretty good output @ their price point. However, I don't think they play deep enough.

Craigsub:

have you ever considered doing a kit/review of the Q line from Fi Car Audio?

https://ssl.perfora.net/www.ficaraudio.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=1546f4a12bcd051/shopdata/0020_Q/product_overview.shopscript

I've heard it has monster amounts of sound quality with pretty good output @ their price point. However, I don't think they play deep enough.

Allot of people here use them for IB setups, I was thinking of buying a pair but I decided to go with a pair of tc/audio pulse ultras.

I've heard it has monster amounts of sound quality with pretty good output @ their price point. However, I don't think they play deep enough.

Why wouldn't they "play deep"?

Richard ... Thanks for chiming in. We may actually get back to discussing what a subwoofer sounds like. The good news, we seem to finally have gotten away from using pictures of drivers as the barometer of performance. :cool:

If you get a chance, post pics of the subs you built ... the craftsmanship rivals anything I have seen anywhere. :)

There is no specific thread, yet. Maybe by Sunday ?


Thanks for the kind words Craig!

It doesn’t take long to get things off track when we all have a different perspective on how things should sound and or perform. One of the benefits of threads like this Craig is more enthusiasts are starting to use subs for their 2ch listening, and in most cases reaping the benefits.

Keep up the excellent work, and I look forward to reading about the GTG also.

Richard

Good shot at it Richard but your comments are more "driver" centric rather than describing it in relation to the subwoofer system as a whole. One of the better descriptions of this phenomena is buried in the JL support pages.

Interestingly the middle and simplistic summary on sealed vs. ported and the many possible alignments ultimately determining the comparison of time based behavior. Of course these differences are entirely related to the LOW frequency corner, not the upper harmonics or extension.

The last two statements on single and dual reflex bandpass systems is flat out wrong, or at minimum not properly qualified in context.

In a likely futile attempt to get back on the topic of subjective impressions of subwoofers as Craig suggests, a great deal of this confusion and tail-chasing debates come from limited description of what someone might "mean" when they say transient response. There are many subsets of qualities, causes and characteristics which fall under the banner of transient response. There is the separate rise and decay of acoustic energy, as well as issues related to the low frequency vs. the high frequency corner of the system. All are affected by different things.

Why wouldn't they "play deep"?

Well, I thought I read the 12" only had about 1.25" of peak to peak excursion which seems very small, but I can't find anymore info. I might be wrong, however, since I don't know alot about Fi or subwoofers in general. Just curious.

You're kind of a freak aren't you, lol, the guy from the last thread? following me or something?
edit: 21 years old, you're forgiven.

Interestingly the middle and simplistic summary on sealed vs. ported and the many possible alignments ultimately determining the comparison of time based behavior. Of course these differences are entirely related to the LOW frequency corner, not the upper harmonics or extension.

The last two statements on single and dual reflex bandpass systems is flat out wrong, or at minimum not properly qualified in context.

In a likely futile attempt to get back on the topic of subjective impressions of subwoofers as Craig suggests, a great deal of this confusion and tail-chasing debates come from limited description of what someone might "mean" when they say transient response. There are many subsets of qualities, causes and characteristics which fall under the banner of transient response. There is the separate rise and decay of acoustic energy, as well as issues related to the low frequency vs. the high frequency corner of the system. All are affected by different things.

We are having the GTG today ... and started with listening outside on our patio last night. Mark Schifter, Rijax/Ajax, Ray3 - Quadriverfalls - MFeust (from AV123 forum), respective spouses that could make it, my wife and I were relaxing over cocktails and good music.

We had the eD A7-900 set up about 100 feet away from us, with a pair of decades old Klipsch Cornwalls, a 25 Watt NAD receiver, Circa 1991, and a Pioneer 563A Universal Player.

People were STUNNED at how good it was.

As this is a subwoofer thread, let's talk subs ... the eD was just plain outstanding. When a guy like Mark Schifter says "I gotta get me one of these things", it gives you an idea.

Today will be lots of blind tests, comraderie, good food/drinks ... and pics later, probably in a separate thread.

Mark Seaton's BMF design was discussed last night, as was the x-plosive.

And Mark ... You can ask MLS when we are done whether or not I can handle properly setting up and reviewing your SUBmersive. :)

Today is going to be fun ... "SEE" you guys later !!

That is awesome. I respect MLS opinion a lot, so having him say "I gotta get me one of these things," says a lot to me.

I look forward to hearing more of your results from the blind testing and such!

looks like eD has a winner huh?

We are having the GTG today ... and started with listening outside on our patio last night. Mark Schifter, Rijax/Ajax, Ray3 - Quadriverfalls - MFeust (from AV123 forum), respective spouses that could make it, my wife and I were relaxing over cocktails and good music.
Sound like fun. Wish I was there. Especially since my wife wants us to go to an arts and crafts show today. Yuck. :)

Maybe you can craft a sub, SoundsGood!!!

Craig.
Please respond here with a link to that thread on the ed a7-900.

Thank you

The last two statements on single and dual reflex bandpass systems is flat out wrong, or at minimum not properly qualified in context.

At the least, Mark. My hat's off for your wading in like that.

The other myth that could stand a little correcting is that sealed boxes beat ported alignments* as a rule.

Flatly and simply stated, adding a lot more effective displacement and nearly nulling the active driver's mechanical action at resonance is a huge advantage for the well-designed, ported system. Unless you have the cash for more cone, more electricity, and more furniture, consider a well-done bass reflex system -- it's why they make them. For an example of real musical listening pleasure, try a simple Altec 515 in a classic tuned alignment for reference. Quite lovely.

Just as importantly, with one rare and exotic exception I'm aware of, equalizing a sealed enclosure, which is sometimes taken to outrageous extremes in "miniature subwoofers", simply roughly replicates the group delay of a roughly equivalently-measuring ported system. Identical response profiles = identical time behavior. Advantage: All other things being as equal as possible, it's not the sealed, EQ'd system, surprisingly.

Lastly, the problem with "fast bass", besides the misnomer, isn't that there isn't such a thing. It's that there is, subjectively perceived, but it depends on a kernel of truth Mark alluded to a page back, I think it was: System integration. The biggest arguable failure in the commercial HT marketplace is grossly inadequate attention paid to correct subwoofer integration. No, it's not your ability, Mr. Consumer, although that plays into it at the casual level. The problem is inadequate filtering and crossover flexibility.

Also: Richard has done this conversation a great service - debunking common, pervasive misconceptions can and should lead to wise buying and use decisions. Good stuff.

*Single bass reflex, Helmholtz resonators, ported, vented, et al as the terms are interchanged to mean a common, single-chamber, ported system containing one or more low frequency drivers within that chamber.

What still amazes me is that the SVS PB13 outperforms the giant Genelec subwoofer below 20 hz. That is a grand feat to pull off.

It's basically the reigning champion right now.

Hi Craig,

MLS and those that flock to him always make for great and entertaining company. :cool:

As this is a subwoofer thread, let's talk subs ... the eD was just plain outstanding. When a guy like Mark Schifter says "I gotta get me one of these things", it gives you an idea.

That is funny... Maybe 4 years ago when there was a meet in Chicago with lots of AV123 gear and I brought out a ContraBass, MLS made the exact same statement. A few years later and the BMF isn't very far down the pipeline. PLEASE feel free to convince MLS there is demand for a subwoofer significantly larger than a BMF. :D ;)


Mark Seaton's BMF design was discussed last night, as was the x-plosive.

And Mark ... You can ask MLS when we are done whether or not I can handle properly setting up and reviewing your SUBmersive. :)

The BMF & x-plosive definitely break away from the current trends in subwoofer design. I look forward to yours and others impressions of the results. I also have no question you can set up the SubMersive to deliver very good results. My bigger problems are that first I'm a perfectionist and know you would like to test the more advanced limiting program I am still finalizing, and secondly based on the traffic here, if you like it, added demand might slow the BMF, x-plosive, UFW-12, x-pls, MiniMate, and 6-12 other projects MLS has be working on. :p

Well, I thought I read the 12" only had about 1.25" of peak to peak excursion which seems very small, but I can't find anymore info. I might be wrong, however, since I don't know alot about Fi or subwoofers in general. Just curious.

You're kind of a freak aren't you, lol, the guy from the last thread? following me or something?
edit: 21 years old, you're forgiven.

No, the Q lineup has ~1" of one-way linear excursion. It probably has closer to 3" of peak-to-peak excursion.

And aren't you kind. :rolleyes:

Man sounds like fun times. Good for eD:D

hey craig, is the ed a7-900 going to get scored soon? No hurry, but i'd love to see how it measures in comparison to that little (in comparison) ultra13.

mwolfe38,

Based on previous post by Craig, the a7-900 was going to get moved into the primary listening area this weekend for further evaluation and scoring. At least that what my feable memory recalls. :)

mwolfe38,

Based on previous post by Craig, the a7-900 was going to get moved into the primary listening area this weekend for further evaluation and scoring. At least that what my feable memory recalls. :)


If that's the case, the area seismic meters will look like this. ;)


http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c160/mailiang/Seismic.gif



Ian :D

No, the Q lineup has ~1" of one-way linear excursion. It probably has closer to 3" of peak-to-peak excursion.

And aren't you kind. :rolleyes:

Either way I'd love to read about it being used in a home theater setup. Have you see one posted anywhere?

Either way I'd love to read about it being used in a home theater setup. Have you see one posted anywhere?

yes many people use them.

They even have a section on home theater shack that just opened

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/fi-audio/

What still amazes me is that the SVS PB13 outperforms the giant Genelec subwoofer below 20 hz.

I wouldn't be so sure about this statement. The Genelec typically has been measured at 2m away from the center of the front baffle. Since the port is side-firing towards the rear of the enclosure, measuring at 2m away from the front baffle will underestimate port contribution (primarily 16-25Hz region), so output at 20Hz will be understated and distortion at 20Hz will be overstated. I am sure that in reality, the Genelec would at a minimum hold it's own with respect to output capability at 20Hz, while holding a huge advantage above that frequency (up to 10db higher). Obviously the price and size is much different, but then again it's not fair to compare MSRP for products sold through dealers compared to MSRP for products sold factory direct.

If Craig had included the big Genelec in his scoring system, I am sure that it would handily top the list by a wide margin, for both movies and music.

hmm, interesting that an HSU rep would comment on a compliment towards SVS...

obviously it's in the ballpark which speaks volumes abut the Ultra, a product which as of yet the HSU flagship cannot compete with :(

I am sure that in reality, the Genelec would at a minimum hold it's own with respect to output capability at 20Hz, while holding a huge advantage above that frequency (up to 10db higher).

If Craig had included the big Genelec in his scoring system, I am sure that it would handily top the list by a wide margin, for both movies and music.

Oh come now Peter, as HSU marketing rep you surely know better than to publically speculate...unless you have actually run listening and max output tests on both the Genelec and PB13-Ultra? ;)

And I suppose according to your guessing methodology, you "are sure" Tom Nousaine also has it all wrong when his own in-room tests show the big Genelec beaten out handily by the new $1599 Epik Conquest...:p

Peter,

I wouldn't be so sure about this statement.

I am. AVtalk measured the PB13 in comparison to the Genelec and it outperformed it down low.

Check this out : http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=22963&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0

There's been a lot of talk about the A5-350, any plans to review it alongside all these other subs?

What's the best sub around $500 for music first, HT and video games second? I'm looking for an all-around performer, but something that won't make me cringe after listening with Mackie HR-824s.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=618

And I suppose according to your guessing methodology, you "are sure" Tom Nousaine also has it all wrong when his own in-room tests show the big Genelec beaten out handily by the new $1599 Epik Conquest...:p

AVtalk measured the PB13 in comparison to the Genelec and it outperformed it down low.

Speaking of down low look at those three subwoofers at 16 Hz:

Epik Conquest - 104.7 dB
SVS PB13 - ~98.5 dB
Genelec HTS6 - 90.5 dB

Wonder where the eD A7-900 fits in at 16Hz since its average starts at 10Hz (129.93 dB (10-100Hz Max Output Avg))?

Isn't that number for the conquest indoors? You can't compare that to outdoor numbers.

Hi all ... The GTG was quite the success. During the blind test of several bookshelf speakers, a bunch of the guys thought I had the PB12-U (Yes, last yearr's model) hooked up, and it turned out to be the Acculine Sub.

The Acculine sub, and the entire Acculine system, was sold to a nice gent from Buffalo, and we raised $4200 for the March of Dimes and 2nd Harvest Food Bank.

The Elemental Designs A7-900 was another star of the show. In our back yard, a full 100 feet away from it, we were treated to some amazing, deep bass.

Look for a wrap up on it by next week.

At 16 Hz, we saw 108 dB from the eD, and stopped. I think it had a little more, but When you see this guy delivering those levels of bass, stopping is a good idea. :eek:

If the eD guys want an A5-350 tested, I am all for it. It looks like they are pretty swamped, though, with keeping up with back oerders. :)

Hi all ... The GTG was quite the success. During the blind test of several bookshelf speakers, a bunch of the guys thought I had the PB12-U (Yes, last yearr's model) hooked up, and it turned out to be the Acculine Sub.

The Acculine sub, and the entire Acculine system, was sold to a nice gent from Buffalo, and we raised $4200 for the March of Dimes and 2nd Harvest Food Bank.

The Elemental Designs A7-900 was another star of the show. In our back yard, a full 100 feet away from it, we were treated to some amazing, deep bass.

Look for a wrap up on it by next week.

At 16 Hz, we saw 108 dB from the eD, and stopped. I think it had a little more, but When you see this guy delivering those levels of bass, stopping is a good idea. :eek:

If the eD guys want an A5-350 tested, I am all for it. It looks like they are pretty swamped, though, with keeping up with back oerders. :)


Epik Conquest - 104.7 dB
SVS PB13 - ~98.5 dB
Genelec HTS6 - 90.5 dB

Wonder where the eD A7-900 fits in at 16Hz since its average starts at 10Hz (129.93 dB (10-100Hz Max Output Avg))?

IT looks like the Ed rules

Epik Conquest - 104.7 dB
SVS PB13 - ~98.5 dB
Genelec HTS6 - 90.5 dB

Wonder where the eD A7-900 fits in at 16Hz since its average starts at 10Hz (129.93 dB (10-100Hz Max Output Avg))?

IT looks like the Ed rules

Before declaring that, we need to do a side by side ... The Conquest has a longer throw driver, but the eD has 2 of them in a larger cabinet.

It should be a terrific shootout between the 2 subs.

Chad and I are scheduled to chat tomorrow to arrange the purchase of a Calor, Castle and Conquest. :)

I love this thread...

Has anybody got an opinion on SVS NSD-12 vs. Elemental Designs A5-350 ? I will probably listen to music mostly, but it also needs to rock for movies and video games.

Agreed, Thanks for your efforts Craig!

This thread adds considerable value to the enthusiast community; Thanks again!

Larry

I love this thread...

Craig, would there be any possibility of perhaps taking the Jamo D6 and D7 subwoofers for a spin at your place ? Or just one. Both have 15" drivers and are the top of the range subwoofers from Jamo.

Thanks.

Chad and I are scheduled to chat tomorrow to arrange the purchase of a Calor, Castle and Conquest. :)
Yeah! :)

Hey, see if you can get a Valor, too. :p

Yeah! :)

Hey, see if you can get a Valor, too. :p

All right ... after 2 night's of 4 hours sleep. a day long GTG, and lugging 20 pairs of speakers and subwoofers around, a guy is allowed some typos .... :D

Of course, the way Epik has been popping out new models, Chad probably has 34 emails: "What's this new Calor model ? When can I order one?" ... :eek::)

Craigsub:

have you ever considered doing a kit/review of the Q line from Fi Car Audio?

https://ssl.perfora.net/www.ficaraud...iew.shopscript

I've heard it has monster amounts of sound quality with pretty good output @ their price point. However, I don't think they play deep enough.

I use 4 Q18s in a sub array...They go deep, deep....deeeeeep.

Scott at Ficaraudio will do modifications for people also. IMO, for a DIY sub the Qs are the best displacement/price option out there (not the first time I have said that).

now back to the testing..... :D

...the way Epik has been popping out new models, Chad probably has 34 emails: "What's this new Calor model ? When can I order one?" ... :eek::)
The way Chad has been popping out new models, he probably DOES have a new Calor sub coming out! :D

I use 4 Q18s in a sub array...They go deep, deep....deeeeeep.

Scott at Ficaraudio will do modifications for people also. IMO, for a DIY sub the Qs are the best displacement/price option out there (not the first time I have said that).

now back to the testing..... :D

I wouldn't be surprised if the epik conquest used a modified FI audio q,;):)

I wouldn't be surprised if the epik conquest used a modified FI audio q,;):)

i can assure you it does not.....far far from it ;)

i can assure you it does not.....far far from it ;)

pix?

the pix I want to see are of Trinity guts...

Epik Conquest - 104.7 dB
SVS PB13 - ~98.5 dB
Genelec HTS6 - 90.5 dB


Unless, I'm missing something, this Epik Conquest measurement was taken in-room (7500cu ft) and was accompanied by 11% THD. Unless these other values were the result of measurements taken under the same condtions(AVtalk took their PB13 measurements outdoors I think), this comparison seems invalid. At lower frequencies like 16Hz, the room even has more of an effect on the SPL (or so I read, I'm no expert).

Also, the PB13 has different tuning points so the tuning point should accompany the result.

Unless, I'm missing something, this Epik Conquest measurement was taken in-room (7500cu ft) and was accompanied by 11% THD. Unless these other values were the result of measurements taken under the same condtions(AVtalk took their PB13 measurements outdoors I think), this comparison seems invalid. At lower frequencies like 16Hz, the room even has more of an effect on the SPL (or so I read, I'm no expert).

Also, the PB13 has different tuning points so the tuning point should accompany the result.

Those are exellent points. The tests cannot be directly compared.

The Ultra in 15hz tune managed about 103db at 16hz...outdoors,no room gain, but with slightly higher distortion.

The Ultra in 15hz tune managed about 103db at 16hz...
Man, I reeeeeally wish that Ultra were a tad less deep in size.

Oh well. Maybe next year. :)

the pix I want to see are of Trinity guts...

When the replacement driver arrives, I will get my bride to snap some pics. :)

When the replacement driver arrives, I will get my bride to snap some pics. :)

You should be getting them VERY soon, I needed warranty on one of my towers and they sent it out asap! got it in a week. (definitive technology)

pix?
chad will post them shortly...

The conquest driver was developed from ground up...it is a beast to say the least. I can't say more unfortunately, as Chad and his dad will cut my nutsack off if I do :p

chad will post them shortly...

The conquest driver was developed from ground up...it is a beast to say the least. I can't say more unfortunately, as Chad and his dad will cut my nutsack off if I do :p

We need a new poll ...

Q: Who Thinks Sherv's nutsack will be cut off if he tells us more?

A. Yes, the Kuyper family changed their name from Corleone in 1974 _____
B. No, Chad is too nice for that ______
C. No, because Sherv does not have a nutsack ______

:D

I gartunee you guys that are defending the PB13- as far as output is concerned the Conquest will blow your socks off. I think it will have the output of 2 PB13s ( Chad correct me if I'm wrong here).

I am seriously considering getting an Epik Valor. I'm telling you, if a single Valor can match or exceed the clean output of dual SVS PB10 subwoofers, I'll buy one in a heart beat.

Period !

I gartunee you guys that are defending the PB13- as far as output is concerned the Conquest will blow your socks off. I think it will have the output of 2 PB13s ( Chad correct me if I'm wrong here).

I wouldn't doubt it, the conquest has over 2x the cone area and over 30% more powerful amplifier over the svs pb 13.

If I had to guess it is probably 4-5 dbs louder then the svs in the 20 hertz range. Now of course tunning and which frequencies are measured will change that.

I am seriously considering getting an Epik Valor. I'm telling you, if a single Valor can match or exceed the clean output of dual SVS PB10 subwoofers, I'll buy one in a heart beat.

Period !
Ditto.

We need a new poll ...

Q: Who Thinks Sherv's nutsack will be cut off if he tells us more?

:D
I don't lets hear the specks.:eek:

LOL; no doubt, details and pix please!

I don't lets hear the specks.:eek:

Hey Craig,

I thought you were going to round up the muscle to move the eD sub into the house this weekend...mamma veto??? :p

Seriously, that would be a job and I know if it were mine and it sounded good in the garage...that's were it would stay...I'd move the other subs out there.:)

Hey Craig,

I thought you were going to round up the muscle to move the eD sub into the house this weekend...mamma veto??? :p

Seriously, that would be a job and I know if it were mine and it sounded good in the garage...that's were it would stay...I'd move the other subs out there.:)

The weather was so nice, and the tunes so good, I could not get anyone to even MOVE. I think the 4 hour long blind listening session followed by Steak, Shrimp and other tasty stuff put everyone into a mellow mood.

The weather was so nice, and the tunes so good, I could not get anyone to even MOVE. I think the 4 hour long blind listening session followed by Steak, Shrimp and other tasty stuff put everyone into a mellow mood.

Dang Craig -you can cook too eh? Awwww shucks I am hungry now.....LOL!!!

Dang Craig -you can cook too eh? Awwww shucks I am hungry now.....LOL!!!

I actually an a terrible cook. One of the attendees, "Quadriverfalls" (his name here as well) is a true chef.

Here is a summary of the dinner from another attendee, "Ray3".

Second was the food. I have been trying to find a way to adequately describe John’s abilities in the kitchen. I’ll simply say these two things 1) if God had a chef, it would be John, 2) if I ever get the opportunity to order my last meal from death row – he’s gonna be the one that I’ll require to prepare it.

The food was fabulous and the detail John put into the ingredients and preparation made the choices special. We cut the steaks (that also included a delicious mushroom sauce) with table knives, the prawns were enormous and the wild rice was seasoned to perfection and included bacon. The vegetables/potatoes were pre-grilled on skewers and were spectacular. Dessert – cheesecake covered with a blackberry reduction sauce John made from scratch. I did not do justice in my description, but you get the idea. I also did not touch Lou’s food, ‘cause, you know, he would kill me.
The contributions made by the attending wives was fabulous – Susan, Gina, Cindy, Tina, Denise – thanks much for helping to improve John’s feast.



It was one incredible meal.

It was one incredible meal.
Wow. Sounds great!

I'm pretty sure it was either catered or his wife did the cooking.
Craig cooking.... that sounds scary.:eek:

I'm pretty sure it was either catered or his wife did the cooking.
Craig cooking.... that sounds scary.:eek:

Only scary if you value life ... :eek:

Tomorrow is Monday. Chad Kupyer can run, be he can no longer hide. I expect him to be ready to sell me 3 subwoofers this week.

Mark Schifter was also at the GTG, and said he would get on Mark Seaton's case about selling me a SUBmersive.

The Chad hiding thing was humour. I know that 99.9% of you already know that. But it ONLY takes one ... :D

I gartunee you guys that are defending the PB13- as far as output is concerned the Conquest will blow your socks off. I think it will have the output of 2 PB13s ( Chad correct me if I'm wrong here).

nobody will know until one has them to compare them, but a safe bet is that yes, the Conquest will be closer (if not surpass) 2 PB13's... we are talking about a ultra long throw 18" with ~2x the cone area vs. a single 13", as well as a larger amp and much larger enclosure.

Simple Physics.

Chad seems pretty confident that even the castle will have more output than the PB13, so the Tower and conquest should be a safe bet. But again, nobody will know for sure till it is tested by someone.

All right ... after 2 night's of 4 hours sleep. a day long GTG, and lugging 20 pairs of speakers and subwoofers around, a guy is allowed some typos .... :D

Of course, the way Epik has been popping out new models, Chad probably has 34 emails: "What's this new Calor model ? When can I order one?" ... :eek::)

Craig, i am truly appreciative of your enthusiasm and interest in providing your objective views on all these great subs....,.but after 1 hour of reading i am growing weary....what is your definitive rankings after listening to all these subs (top 10) as of sept 2007? thank you in advance.... paul

Craig, i am truly appreciative of your enthusiasm and interest in providing your objective views on all these great subs....,.but after 1 hour of reading i am growing weary....what is your definitive rankings after listening to all these subs (top 10) as of sept 2007? thank you in advance.... paul

You can get the quick summary by clicking the link in my signature ... :)

I gartunee you guys that are defending the PB13- as far as output is concerned the Conquest will blow your socks off. I think it will have the output of 2 PB13s ( Chad correct me if I'm wrong here).



What about sound quality? Oops, does anyone really know? :D

You can get the quick summary by clicking the link in my signature ... :)

Thank you! that was too easy......one question and thats all .....whats your favorite musical sub out of these?

Thank you! that was too easy......one question and thats all .....whats your favorite musical sub out of these?

The PB-13 Ultra, followed closely by the ACI Maestro, Velodyne DD-18, and the JL Audio Fathom 113.

The PB-13 Ultra, followed closely by the ACI Maestro, Velodyne DD-18, and the JL Audio Fathom 113.

Thank you..... u have made this sub universe that much easier to understand

Thank you..... u have made this sub universe that much easier to understand

You know ... a true story ... I was given 2 choices, and if I failed at either, I would have to listen to nothing but Bose 101's for the rest of my life.

the choices ...

1. Figure out women, and report back.
2. Figure out subwoofers, and report back.

The path was an easy choice... :D

I actually an a terrible cook. One of the attendees, "Quadriverfalls" (his name here as well) is a true chef.

Here is a summary of the dinner from another attendee, "Ray3".



It was one incredible meal.

Geez I am starving now!!!!!!!...................LOL!!!!!:D:D

Craigsub,

I think you have worked way too hard over the years.
You should pass your job and pay over to me :D . It will allow you time two focus on your life goals there :).



1. Figure out women, and report back.
2. Figure out subwoofers, and report back.

Mark Schifter was also at the GTG, and said he would get on Mark Seaton's case about selling me a SUBmersive.
Whoo-hoo! Excellent. :)

Chad Kupyer can run, be he can no longer hide.
Why would you think he is hiding? He is just very busy, that's all. I hate when people think that other people are hiding from them just because they are too busy to return a call or hit reply in email. There is just way too much of that going on in this world today.

The Chad hiding thing was humour. I know that 99.9% of you already know that. But it ONLY takes one ... :D
Oh, I see. Never mind.


;)

At 16 Hz, we saw 108 dB from the eD...

Craig, was this a 2m ground plane measurement?

Greatly looking forward to hearing more when you've run the indoor sessions on this monster!

Craig, was this a 2m ground plane measurement?

Greatly looking forward to hearing more when you've run the indoor sessions on this monster!

Yes, it was. :)

Yes, it was. :)

could you share the entire measurement and FR?

could you share the entire measurement and FR?

I will report what various subwoofers did, in terms of performance numbers. I will not be posting graphs of each subwoofer. Every time that is done, it turns into a urinating contest about 1 dB here or 2 dB there.

If anyone ever wishes to witness a GP session being done, let me know, and we will arrange a time. :)

Here is the scoring summary with the Home Theater score and Music score, respectively shown as (HT-M).

Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)


Hi, thank you for all the great work!

Is the above sub the AV123 x-series ? or something different? I'm trying to find a decent, cheap HT sub to go with my athena low end setup.

Thanks.

not sure I'm following you. You took GP measurements, and made a reference to it on the eD sub. Why not share the entire GP measurement? The "urinating" contests of past were with certain folks who questioned the accuracy of your measurements, but unless I'm wrong, I thought the methodology you are now using was deemed good.

is this not the case?

Also, would two of these:

Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)

be better than one of these:

SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)

because it is cheaper....

Is there a way to override the limiter on the Conquest? I've heard that the limiter would let it go past like 110dB. But damn, 103.8dB at 12.5Hz with only 3.4% THD?? CRAZY!!!
BTW craig, do you think the PB13 will go louder if it was in a much bigger enclosure than the one they're in right now?

Yes, it was. :)
HOLY CRAP :eek:

Craig, any idea on how that A7-900 does deeper, like 12.5hz? I have an interest in reproducing subsonics found on a few DVD's such as Blackhawk Down, and it appears that large enclosures and massive port area are required...

I wouldn't be so sure about this statement. The Genelec typically has been measured at 2m away from the center of the front baffle. Since the port is side-firing towards the rear of the enclosure, measuring at 2m away from the front baffle will underestimate port contribution (primarily 16-25Hz region), so output at 20Hz will be understated and distortion at 20Hz will be overstated. I am sure that in reality, the Genelec would at a minimum hold it's own with respect to output capability at 20Hz, while holding a huge advantage above that frequency (up to 10db higher). Obviously the price and size is much different, but then again it's not fair to compare MSRP for products sold through dealers compared to MSRP for products sold factory direct.

If Craig had included the big Genelec in his scoring system, I am sure that it would handily top the list by a wide margin, for both movies and music.
__________________
Peter Marcks
Hsu Research

????:confused:

John

Is there a way to override the limiter on the Conquest? I've heard that the limiter would let it go past like 110dB. But damn, 103.8dB at 12.5Hz with only 3.4% THD?? CRAZY!!!
BTW craig, do you think the PB13 will go louder if it was in a much bigger enclosure than the one they're in right now?


A better question might be "would two PB13 drivers in a much bigger enclosure with more power go louder than the single PB13." :rolleyes:

SVS optimized the enclosure for sq, dB, and efficiency - Most drivers require certain cabinet volumes, port sizes and lengths. I'm sure SVS tested larger cabinets, smaller cabinets, etc... with this new driver.

Here's a question for the masses... Did SVS design the cabinet around the driver, or the driver around the cabinet?

Has anybody got an opinion on SVS NSD-12 vs. Elemental Designs A5-350 ? I will probably listen to music mostly, but it also needs to rock for movies and video games.

I owned the SVS PB12-NSD and now have an ED A5-350. There is no comparison. The ED is a better sub all the way around and thats saying alot because the SVS is also a great sub.
The ED goes lower, hits harder and is more musical than the SVS. And the output is a lot more than the SVS.
I also had the new SVS PC Ultra in my home this past weekend, courtesy of Ron Stimpson and that thing is something else. I hated giving it back to him today. I told him that I lost it and he wasn't buying it. :)

The PB-13 Ultra, followed closely by the ACI Maestro, Velodyne DD-18, and the JL Audio Fathom 113.


So is the ED A7-900 a musical sub or just brute power and output?

Here's a question for the masses... Did SVS design the cabinet around the driver, or the driver around the cabinet?

That's a chicken-egg sort of question that only SVS could answer for certain, but I'm thinking they must have had a pretty good idea of the overall package size they were looking for before designing the driver.

Judging by the amazing frequency response and overall performance, the driver and box are a match made in heaven.

I owned the SVS PB12-NSD and now have an ED A5-350. There is no comparison. The ED is a better sub all the way around and thats saying alot because the SVS is also a great sub.
The ED goes lower, hits harder and is more musical than the SVS. And the output is a lot more than the SVS.
I also had the new SVS PC Ultra in my home this past weekend, courtesy of Ron Stimpson and that thing is something else. I hated giving it back to him today. I told him that I lost it and he wasn't buying it. :)
Jeffrey, I'm jealous you got to meet Ron - I can tell he is a great guy just from his emails.

So can you describe what you heard from the new Ultra in sound quality and output compared to your new A5-350?

Cheers,
Ross

Jeffrey, I'm jealous you got to meet Ron - I can tell he is a great guy just from his emails.

So can you describe what you heard from the new Ultra in sound quality and output compared to your new A5-350?

Cheers,
Ross

I met Ron nearly a year ago and he is a great guy. One of the benefits of being in the same city as he is.

Well it is just an all around spectacular sub. I mean I literally I got that hit you in the chest physical feel of a sub that I have been searching for. The SVS is extremely accurate, detailed and rapid attack and decay. No slopiness or boom. The output is just incredible. I watched a Chris Botti concert that I actually went to, pretty much the same concert I went to live on DVD and I really felt like I was there. I am going to watch the same concert tonight on the A5-350 and see how it stacks up. The A5-350 is also a phenomenal sub. For $600 you can't go wrong.
Just a great time to be searching for a sub. So many internet direct companies have stepped it up.

Well it is just an all around spectacular sub. I mean I literally I got that hit you in the chest physical feel of a sub that I have been searching for. The SVS is extremely accurate, detailed and rapid attack and decay. No slopiness or boom. The output is just incredible. I watched a Chris Botti concert that I actually went to, pretty much the same concert I went to live on DVD and I really felt like I was there. I am going to watch the same concert tonight on the A5-350 and see how it stacks up. The A5-350 is also a phenomenal sub. For $600 you can't go wrong.
Just a great time to be searching for a sub. So many internet direct companies have stepped it up.
Good stuff there! Were you running the 20-hz tune on the Ultra? That's the mode that seems to have the most punch, but the lower tunes are also nice for digging up more infrasonics.

A few minutes ago my jaw was on the floor watching the machines rising scene from WOTW with dual stacked PB13's in 15hz tuning, but my pleasure was short-lived because at a peak moment when the RS meter read close to 108db (timestamp 21:44) my circuit tripped and cut off all power. Going to have to get an electrician to come out and add some dedicated 30-amp circuits to keep these new Ultras properly fed and happy :D

So is the ED A7-900 a musical sub or just brute power and output?

It is exceptionally musical. Friday night, several guys who were in town for the GTG came over, and we played some jazz on the system in the detached garage.

From 100 feet away, the bass was deep, taut, powerful and just plain GREAT.

Several of the guys suggested we scrap the blind test and just hang out all afternoon listening to this system.

NOW ... back to getting new subs here - I talked to Chad today (at Epik), and they are still getting things ramped up. When he gets caught up, he will email me that they are ready to sell some review subs.

I will leave him alone for a while - the guy worked at the factory all weekend.

Going to have to get an electrician to come out and add some dedicated 30-amp circuits to keep these new Ultras properly fed and happy :D:D...were you trying to run everything through one dedicated 15 amp circuit, the Cinenova, AVR and sub? Was there smoke ?

:D...were you trying to run everything through one dedicated 15 amp circuit, the Cinenova, AVR and sub? Was there smoke ?

at one point I was running my denon,tv,ep 2500, a pair of def tech 7001s off one 15 amp breaker :o

Did any of you try the Velodyne SPL-1000R at all? Or do you (maybe!!) have a ranking for this sub? I am considering this vs. an HSU VTF-2 MkIII... any opinions here?