Damn, I couldn't make it to the GTG. Maybe next year Craig?:D

Wonder how these new beasts compare to the Danley.

how does the eD a7 900 compare to the SVS PB13? How much is the eD? Which one is more musical or better for movies. Which one has a better deal?
BTW, how can you afford to test all those subs? Are you like a millionaire?

Did any of you try the Velodyne SPL-1000R at all? Or do you (maybe!!) have a ranking for this sub? I am considering this vs. an HSU VTF-2 MkIII... any opinions here?

The Hsu will be quite a bit more powerful than will the Velodyne - while the Auto EQ in the Velo will make set up very easy. If you have a smaller room, and don't require high SPL, the Velodyne is not a bad way to go, but the Hsu will definitely deliver higher objective numbers.

Damn, I couldn't make it to the GTG. Maybe next year Craig?:D

Vito ... You should have seen my wife's face when I announced we were doing it again next WEEK ... :D

I should be allowed back in the house by Thanksgiving ... :eek:

how does the eD a7 900 compare to the SVS PB13? How much is the eD? Which one is more musical or better for movies. Which one has a better deal?
BTW, how can you afford to test all those subs? Are you like a millionaire?

Ok.

Who let my mother-in-law in here ? :D

:D...were you trying to run everything through one dedicated 15 amp circuit, the Cinenova, AVR and sub? Was there smoke ?
Hey Ron! No smoke yet :D Actually, I had the Cinenova running off a sepaate 15-amp circuit, so the dual PB13's, receiver as pre/pro, DVD player, and plasma TV shared another 15-amp circuit and apparently when you are nearing reference levels you need a little more amperage draw than that. I plan on getting two 20-amp circuits added to that room, one just for the subs and the other just for the amp.

Ok.

Who let my mother-in-law in here ? :D

LOL :D:D

Hi Ross,

Oh come now Peter, as HSU marketing rep you surely know better than to publically speculate...unless you have actually run listening and max output tests on both the Genelec and PB13-Ultra?

For starters, I am not the marketing rep, but rather am involved in product development and strategy for the company while also providing some technical and customer support online. To date I have spent zero hours being directly involved in sales/marketing.

Secondly, there is absolutely no doubt that placing a microphone 2m away from the center of the front baffle on a subwoofer like the big Genelec will not properly capture port contribution. Think logically about it. The big Genelec is nearly 5 feet long and nearly 2 feet deep and 2 feet tall. Placing the mic on the ground at 2m distance from the center of the front baffle will mean that the port centroid is nearly 1m (!) farther away from the mic compared to a situation where the port is on the front baffle. For every doubling of distance in a ground plane environment (for instance, moving from 2m to 4m distance), there is a reduction in SPL of 6db. So it is not out of the question to determine based on basic mathematics and principles of physics that the output near port tuning on the Genelec is understated by up to 2-3db. This is by no means taking away anything from other subwoofers, but rather pointing out a drawback in conveniently and accurately measuring a subwoofer like the big Genelec. It might look like it has a 2db deficit (or 1.7db deficit to be more precise based on the actual test data) at 20Hz, but in my opinion that is not realistic due to the way in which the big Genelec would normally be measured with mic placed in the middle of the front baffle.

Now, I can’t afford the big Genelec. In fact, I can’t even afford a PB13. But if someone wants to purchase both and prove me wrong about the 20Hz output, feel free to do so, but I am pretty confident in my analysis ;) Again, that is not a knock on anyone's subwoofer, just giving a little credit to the big Genelec where credit is due.

And I suppose according to your guessing methodology, you "are sure" Tom Nousaine also has it all wrong when his own in-room tests show the big Genelec beaten out handily by the new $1599 Epik Conquest...

It’s funny you mention this, because some of the logic presented above could apply for Nousaine’s measurements too. I don’t know where Nousaine placed his microphone when measuring the Genelec, but if the mic was placed 2m away from the center of the front baffle (which is a likely position to have been used), then I can say with confidence that port contribution would not be properly captured, and THD-limited output near port tuning would be understated. How do I know this? Look at the measurements of the VTF-3 Mk3. Nousaine measured 2db LESS average output from 25-62Hz (using strict THD limits) for the VTF-3 Mk3 in MAX OUTPUT mode compared to turbo mode. Everyone here knows that this is not realistic, and the reason is due to the lack of port contribution based on the same logic used above. So how much could this affect results? That is impossible to say. Just realize that most of the distortion is coming from the driver, so if the mic is placed significantly closer to driver than to port centroid, then measurements using strict THD limits could be materially affected, as in the case of the VTF-3 Mk3.

The Epik Conquest looks like a great product, and I wish nothing but great success for Chad and his crew at Epik. Obviously the Conquest is tuned significantly lower than the big Genelec, so it should hold a progressively larger and larger advantage over the big Genelec below 20Hz. Since the driver and port are on the front baffle, there’s not any issue about Nousaine capturing proper port contribution on the Conquest. The big Genelec might have understated THD-limited output in the 16-25Hz range, but it is impossible to quantify that. There is zero doubt that the Conquest will be far ahead of the Genelec at 16Hz and below in pretty much any circumstance.

nobody will know until one has them to compare them, but a safe bet is that yes, the Conquest will be closer (if not surpass) 2 PB13's... we are talking about a ultra long throw 18" with ~2x the cone area vs. a single 13", as well as a larger amp and much larger enclosure.

Simple Physics.

Chad seems pretty confident that even the castle will have more output than the PB13, so the Tower and conquest should be a safe bet. But again, nobody will know for sure till it is tested by someone.

You forgot one other thing Sherv. The Conquest has dual 6" ports, which is roughly equivalent in cross-sectional area to SIX 3.5" ports or FOUR 4" ports or EIGHT 3" ports :) So compared to triple 3.5" or dual 4" ports, the low-turbulent air-moving capability is doubled (2x advantage). Now take in the fact that one would need to plug at least one port to get close to the port tuning on the Conquest, the advantage in port cross-sectional area for the Conquest becomes almost staggering (nearly a 3x advantage in low-turbulent air-moving capability vs dual 3.5" ports, and even more advantage vs a single 4" port). Considering that the driver seems capable enough to make full use of this large porting, then this advantage becomes significant.

There is zero doubt that the Conquest will be far ahead of the Genelec at 16Hz and below in pretty much any circumstance.
Not that i doubt that you are correct, but according to the conversation I had with chad he seems to think the conquest is even more stellar above 30 hz (i forget exactly where).. According to him it did something like 124db gp somewhere in the 30-40hz region. Hopefully he can chime in on that..

after reading your statement again, i'm not sure if you meant the conquest or the genelec would be below

how does the eD a7 900 compare to the SVS PB13? How much is the eD? Which one is more musical or better for movies. Which one has a better deal?
BTW, how can you afford to test all those subs? Are you like a millionaire?

A somewhat serious answer .... Until I complete a test, no "final" answer is given. We are going to go about this a little differently over the weekend. Since getting the 435 pound BEAST into the theater room has eluded me, I am taking the Ultra to it this weekend, and finalizing everything.

And according to my mother in law, she should have married the doctor. Or the lawyer. Or the teacher. Or the janitor.

You get the idea.

The Hsu will be quite a bit more powerful than will the Velodyne - while the Auto EQ in the Velo will make set up very easy. If you have a smaller room, and don't require high SPL, the Velodyne is not a bad way to go, but the Hsu will definitely deliver higher objective numbers.

Thanks! I guess I'll go with the HSU then...

Well I'm sold on this one...only problem is I'll be getting my HT gear right around the time that The Transformers' dvd comes out...and have to wait a month for the sub to get here!

Here is the scoring summary with the Home Theater score and Music score, respectively shown as (HT-M).

Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)


Hi, thank you for all the great work!

Is the above sub the AV123 x-series ? or something different? I'm trying to find a decent, cheap HT sub to go with my athena low end setup.

Thanks.

?

Yes the x-sub is part of the av123 x-series, not the Rocket series. Though you can use it with Rockets if you wish. Neither it, nor the Rockets, will mind in the least :)

You'll have to forgive Craig. He drinks a lot.
http://bestsmileys.com/drinking/5.gif




;)

Yes the x-sub is part of the av123 x-series, not the Rocket series. Though you can use it with Rockets if you wish. Neither it, nor the Rockets, will mind in the least :)

thanks!

Now when it comes to HT

Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)

SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)

is 9 points in HT score worth $229? What would be involved with setting up two of the x-series?

You forgot one other thing Sherv. The Conquest has dual 6" ports, which is roughly equivalent in cross-sectional area to SIX 3.5" ports or FOUR 4" ports or EIGHT 3" ports :) So compared to triple 3.5" or dual 4" ports, the low-turbulent air-moving capability is doubled (2x advantage). Now take in the fact that one would need to plug at least one port to get close to the port tuning on the Conquest, the advantage in port cross-sectional area for the Conquest becomes almost staggering (nearly a 3x advantage in low-turbulent air-moving capability vs dual 3.5" ports, and even more advantage vs a single 4" port). Considering that the driver seems capable enough to make full use of this large porting, then this advantage becomes significant.
well, didn't want to put all the cards on the table....too much common sense is not good around here; this is the subwoofer forum after all :D

Vito ... You should have seen my wife's face when I announced we were doing it again next WEEK ... :D

I should be allowed back in the house by Thanksgiving ... :eek:

Are you kidding me??? If this is true, I can't make it AGAIN!! Damn you Craig!;)

Damn, I can't keep up w/ this thread! :eek:

thanks!

Now when it comes to HT

Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)

SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)

is 9 points in HT score worth $229? What would be involved with setting up two of the x-series? The x-sub is rated down to 28 Hz, while the SVS goes down to 20 Hz. Both will probably go a couple of Hz lower in-room. Craig says that, in his ratings, every 3 points represents about 15% difference in performance. Based on that, he ranks the SVS about 25% better, overall, than the x-sub. But he ranks the SVS about 45% better for HT. Is that worth the $230 price difference? Only you can decide. Were it me, if the budget allows, for HT, I would want that extra 45%.

All you would need to hook up two subwoofers would be Y-Adapter (1 male to two female similar to this.
http://www.partsexpress.com/images/181-692m.jpg
Plug the male end into the subwoofer output of your receiver/processor, and plug a regular subwoofer cable into each female end of the adapter and run each to a separate subwoofer.

Keep in mind that two subs won't go any deeper than one. But, if you co-locate them (stack them) it will increase the output (volume), and if you place them in separate spots in your room it won't increase output but it can help to smooth out frequency response.

If price is a factor, and if you can wait [indefinitely], another sub you might consider is the Acculine A-sub (http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?products_id=68). It won't go as deep as the SVS, but it will go a bit deeper than the x-sub. We used this sub (for music) at Craig's recent GTG and everyone came away fairly impressed by it's performance.

Keep in mind that two subs won't go any deeper than one. But, if you co-locate them (stack them) it will increase the output (volume), and if you place them in separate spots in your room it won't increase output but it can help to smooth out frequency response. .
Is stacking two subs the only way to increase output? If I put two subs about 7' apart, would the ONLY advantage be a smoothing of response? I need sealed subs for a Salamander console. I was seriously thinking about two, but maybe spend the money from the second one on one higher quality sub that will go deeper???
Tom

Two subs placed far apart will still give you a boost in output just not as much as stacking them.

Is stacking two subs the only way to increase output? If I put two subs about 7' apart, would the ONLY advantage be a smoothing of response? I need sealed subs for a Salamander console. I was seriously thinking about two, but maybe spend the money from the second one on one higher quality sub that will go deeper???
Tom

Do you mean you plan on putting the subs inside the Salamander ?

Do you mean you plan on putting the subs inside the Salamander ?

Yes, unless they don't sound good, which then I would move them to the outside of the Salamander. I have been using two Energy 8" subs on the outside and recently moved them inside and they seem to sound about the same. I haven't taken a new measurement yet with REW and reset the Behringer BFD since moving them inside. But, these small subs roll off at 29Hz, so maybe the new sub or subs which get much deeper in frequency won't work well in the console?. By the way, the reason I'm even considering putting the subs in the console is this is a temporary HT in my new house living room until I build a permanent HT in the basement. Just trying to hide speakers if possible. All my main speakers are in the ceiling. Do you have any thoughts and advice on this? Recommendations? I would like to stay around $1500 for one or two sealed subs that can't be wider than 18.5". Depth and height can be over 20" Thanks,
Tom

Tom ... A solid subwoofer that delivers below 20 Hz bass will suffer greatly in the Salamander. Look at the subs from Hsu, eD, SVS, etc ... and find a good place in the room. :)

Tom ... A solid subwoofer that delivers below 20 Hz bass will suffer greatly in the Salamander. Look at the subs from Hsu, eD, SVS, etc ... and find a good place in the room. :)
I was hoping it might work. Thanks for being honest, I will take your advise and keep it in the room. Besides, going forward with this plan I'm not limited to a small size.
Thanks,
Tom

I'm itchin to pull the trigger on dual a7-900's, the canadian dollar is great now so it makes for a great deal for us canucks :) but the shipping sucks, around $400 to my house :(
I'm looking forward to the results :)

dual a7-900's??? Are you trying to fill an auditorium or what?

No, but theres no room like head room :) an it's will be close to the budget I have, I'm moving my 4 servo 15's to the games room and hopefully (if all goes well) these will be the new star attractions :)

I talked to Chad today (at Epik), and they are still getting things ramped up. When he gets caught up, he will email me that they are ready to sell some review subs.


Hey Craig,

Do you have any ETA on getting the Epiks or did Chad not give any indication when this might be? Just curious. I would definetly like to hear your opinion before making a purchase.

I'm guessing the a7-900s will have the highest score or at least highest output but those seem to have limited placment options. I wish they would have put thie connections/amp on one long side (back for me) and the port hole on the opposite long side (front for me). I guess their design calls for things to be placed like they are.

Thanks

Talked to ssab on aim and he informed me about the Epik Conquests.

Holy ****, I don't know how I didn't hear about these things before.

I'm definitely putting one on my to buy list, maybe even a secondary one after that.

:p:D:eek:

The gallery @ Epik seems to be not working, does anyone have good photos detailing out the Epik Conquests?

Hey Craig,

Do you have any ETA on getting the Epiks or did Chad not give any indication when this might be? Just curious. I would definetly like to hear your opinion before making a purchase.

I'm guessing the a7-900s will have the highest score or at least highest output but those seem to have limited placment options. I wish they would have put thie connections/amp on one long side (back for me) and the port hole on the opposite long side (front for me). I guess their design calls for things to be placed like they are.

Thanks

The A7-900's need to clear one more hurdle ... critical listening ... which will happen this weekend.

They are a specialty subwoofer .... N8dogg has the right idea, duals means never running out of headroom.

Results will be up Sunday afternoon. Unless I golf ... lol

Chad promised "soon". From there, the ball is in his court. :)

The Acculine Asub currently has no firm date for availability. It may also be a different design, using a passive radiator in place of the port.

Taking that into consideration, I have changed the provisional status from "Available November, 2007" to "provisional, currently out of production".

When we get something firm from Jon Lane, it will be updated.

It is somewhat a "bummer", too ... for $289, it is a great sub.

thanks!

Now when it comes to HT

Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)

SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)

is 9 points in HT score worth $229? What would be involved with setting up two of the x-series?

In addition to what Rijax said, check out this thread (http://www.av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=24517) on AV123 Forum. A guy showed and discussed his "twins".

The x-sub is rated down to 28 Hz, while the SVS goes down to 20 Hz. Both will probably go a couple of Hz lower in-room. Craig says that, in his ratings, every 3 points represents about 15% difference in performance. Based on that, he ranks the SVS about 25% better, overall, than the x-sub. But he ranks the SVS about 45% better for HT.[b] Is that worth the $230 price difference? Only you can decide. Were it me, [b]if the budget allows, for HT, I would want that extra 45%.


If this bolded statement is true, I'm ordering the SVS tomorrow.

You should PM craigsub to be sure I'm remembering what he said correctly. At my age, one can never be sure. :D

OOPS! Did a quick search and couldn't find the post where he explains his ratings. BUT, I did find this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11632716&postcount=2763), in which he says

"To do a little analysis, let's look at the Fathom and the Ultra.

To go from 103 to 109 points is about a 30 percent improvement overall.

The Ultra delivers about 6 dB more bass below 30 Hz on the torture scene as vs. the Fathom.

It loses nothing in the way of upper bass performance to the Fathom on music.

Is calling this a 30 Percent improvement reasonable ?"

So, I think I've got it right. Every 3 points represents roughly a 15% difference. Or, each point represents a 5% difference.

Two subs placed far apart will still give you a boost in output just not as much as stacking them.

and sometimes they can cancel each other out when placed far apart

hey craig, have you ever checked out the pulse scene?

would love to know how the trinity does on that one

and sometimes they can cancel each other out when placed far apart

i am considering two SVS PB13's for my HT

its not a huge space, and if two could cancel each other out i guess thats another reason to just get one

i'm also a bit concerned that two would cause such vibration that it may shake the projector off the ceiling....:D

(actually, i'm not kidding)

Craig, I'm doing a HSU 3.3 Turbo and MBM-12 setup in my living room at the end of October and am wondering when you will be doing a evaluation on that configuration? My HT space is over 6000 cubic ft (living room).

Bill

Craig, I'm doing a HSU 3.3 Turbo and MBM-12 setup in my living room at the end of October and am wondering when you will be doing a evaluation on that configuration? My HT space is over 6000 cubic ft (living room).

Bill

The MBM-12 can be a worthy add on to a subwoofer system for several reasons ... If the location of the subwoofer for 15-40 Hz response causes a null in upper bass, if one's mains cannot deliver a linear 80 Hz signal during more demanding scenes, or just for added headroom in mid and upper bass.

I look at it as more of an accessory that MAY be of use with ANY subwoofer, not just Hsu products.

In your case, I suggest you try your system with and without it ... if it performs better with, keep the MBM-12. If not, return it. :)

Craig-

Did I read correctly that you have an MFW-15 on the way as soon as they ship? Sounds like that should be soon based on what I read yesterday at AV123. I can't wait to hear your thoughts.

i am considering two SVS PB13's for my HT . . . its not a huge space, and if two could cancel each other out i guess thats another reason to just get one . . .

That's what phase controls are for, B.W. :)

Not knowing how large your space is, you might consider one PB13 and an SMS-1 as an alternative.

Bwhitmore,

It would be helpful if you would tell us the size of the room, if its open to other areas and where is the seating relative to the display.

Craig-

Did I read correctly that you have an MFW-15 on the way as soon as they ship? Sounds like that should be soon based on what I read yesterday at AV123. I can't wait to hear your thoughts.

I had about the 3rd order in for an MFW-15 ... so yes, I should be getting one here ASAP. :)

I had about the 3rd order in for an MFW-15 ... so yes, I should be getting one here ASAP. :)
Yeah! :)

Usually, telling someone to purchase a particular subwoofer is something I try to avoid. Big_screen_bill is trying to fill a large room, and personally I would like to see him use a larger sub than he is asking about: A PB12-Plus/2, dual VTF-3.3, or an eD A7-600.

But, since he asked about the 2 subwoofers specifically, for a larger room, the SVS PB12-NSD is a good choice for output... plus if you do overdrive it, all that will happen is some compression.

In a smaller room, it is more of a close call.

EarkHog ... Both are excellent choices .. the SVS is a bit more powerful, but either will give you lots of deep, powerful bass. Now ... the new A3-350 (I think that is the 15 incher from eD) for $600 delivered is likely going to be a standard bearer in the $600 sub arena.

Well I had to increase my budget a little :) and I got the SVS 20-39 PC+. Wow! It fills the entire LR and kitchen with tons of bass and you can feel things that you can't even hear. One gut punch literally made my hair stand up. An amazing sub! Thank you all for your help and advice.

- Bill

Bwhitmore,

It would be helpful if you would tell us the size of the room, if its open to other areas and where is the seating relative to the display.

sorry...:o

I've attached a crude drawing of the space...it's 20' wide at the seating area...the "sub" in the drawing is not in that location

seating (sectional sofa) is about 15' from the screen...open back to the rest of the basement

I am using seven Triad inwall "Silver" speakers

subs would go in the front right and left corners under the screen

it's not a real huge space, so i was considering one JL Audio Fathom F113

but then thought about going with two SVS PB13 Ultra's...but maybe one is plenty?!

thanks!

brad

Craig,

I am currently a PB10 NSD owner but looking to gain a little extension and headroom by hopping up to either an SVS PB12-NSD or a PB12-Plus. Below are your scores for the PB12-NSD and Plus/2. Being that the Plus/2 is only 1 overall point higher with the PB12 being better musically, how would the PB12-Plus (non-plus/2) compare to the PB12-NSD and would it be worth the extra $200 for it(current discounted price on premium finished models)?

SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)

Thanks!

Craig,

Have you had the chance to try out the A5-350 sub yet or have that on your radar for down the road?

Craig,

I am currently a PB10 NSD owner but looking to gain a little extension and headroom by hopping up to either an SVS PB12-NSD or a PB12-Plus. Below are your scores for the PB12-NSD and Plus/2. Being that the Plus/2 is only 1 overall point higher with the PB12 being better musically, how would the PB12-Plus (non-plus/2) compare to the PB12-NSD and would it be worth the extra $200 for it(current discounted price on premium finished models)?

SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)

Thanks!

I would still go with the PB12-NSD, unless you want the nicer finish, then spend the $200. :)

Craig,

Have you had the chance to try out the A5-350 sub yet or have that on your radar for down the road?

It's on the radar ... once the guys at eD get caught up with back orders. They want to make sure all their customers that NEED a new subwoofer get served before selling me one to see if I can blow it up ... :D

I would still go with the PB12-NSD, unless you want the nicer finish, then spend the $200. :)

So besides the nicer finish, you wouldn't consider the PB12-Plus to have a significant advantage over the NSD (extension, accuracy, output etc)?

Thanks again!

Also Craig,

For a room size of 17' X 14' X 8' which is open to a kitchen of nearly the same size and hallway, would there be much difference between those same two subs for output, freq response, SQ etc (PB12-NSD and PB12-Plus)?

So I've started looking into the A5-350 and am now wondering for the $600 price tag, is this sub going to be just as good, if not better than either the SVS PB12-NSD or SVS PB12-Plus in all aspects (flat response, deep extension, output clarity etc)? Has anyone heard all of these speakers enough to give me their honest recommendation?

Thanks in advance!

So I've started looking into the A5-350 and am now wondering for the $600 price tag, is this sub going to be just as good, if not better than either the SVS PB12-NSD or SVS PB12-Plus in all aspects (flat response, deep extension, output clarity etc)? Has anyone heard all of these speakers enough to give me their honest recommendation?

Thanks in advance!

JeffreyGTS has both ... and seems pretty impressed with the new eD sub.

I can see a new $600 comparo in the near future ... the eD, the Valor and the MFW-15 from AV123.

that sounds like a great shootout. I'd be very interested in the results of that one. It seems like the $600 price point may be the new entry level cost for great subs.. Thats highly subjective of course.

that sounds like a great shootout. I'd be very interested in the results of that one. It seems like the $600 price point may be the new entry level cost for great subs.. Thats highly subjective of course.

Yes very subjective. The PB10 at $429 is still a great sub. Ed Mullen tells me that at lower volumes when not pushed, it sound virtually as good as its bigger brothren.

Craig,

I am currently a PB10 NSD owner but looking to gain a little extension and headroom by hopping up to either an SVS PB12-NSD or a PB12-Plus. Below are your scores for the PB12-NSD and Plus/2. Being that the Plus/2 is only 1 overall point higher with the PB12 being better musically, how would the PB12-Plus (non-plus/2) compare to the PB12-NSD and would it be worth the extra $200 for it(current discounted price on premium finished models)?

SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)

Thanks!



I'd get a 2nd PB-12NSD and stack them...

Without going into too much detail Ed Mullen said that would be virtually a sonic twin for the PB-12plus/2... Plus it would look pretty bad ass stacked in a corner...

I'd get a 2nd PB-12NSD and stack them...

Without going into too much detail Ed Mullen said that would be virtually a sonic twin for the PB-12plus/2... Plus it would look pretty bad ass stacked in a corner...

I wouldn't mind doing that but my wife wouldn't go for that in our living room (dedicated HT not gonna happen for a while still) and I need to sell the PB10 to upgrade. I already got a friend that will pay $350 for it so that part is taken care of.

I got mine stacked :)

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/1429/wallofsvspv2.th.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wallofsvspv2.jpg)

I got mine stacked :)

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/1429/wallofsvspv2.th.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wallofsvspv2.jpg)

Methinks I see a Bose speaker on top...hmmmm

you do :(, There just my temp surround back speakers for now.

Methinks I see a Bose speaker on top...hmmmm

Ha-ha! Is that where all that bass is really coming from?

Ha-ha! Is that where all that bass is really coming from?

:cool:

I wouldn't mind doing that but my wife wouldn't go for that in our living room (dedicated HT not gonna happen for a while still) and I need to sell the PB10 to upgrade. I already got a friend that will pay $350 for it so that part is taken care of.

Then if you are limited to only one subwoofer why not get the PB-13? I know we are talking more money, but you get what you pay for.

My next option would be the PB-12Plus/2...that thing can put out some serious bass above 20hz....but won't dig as deep because of the tuning...

hey craig, did you get to test the a7-900 yet? Or did you go play golf..

I got mine stacked :)

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/1429/wallofsvspv2.th.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wallofsvspv2.jpg)

I would've bought a better mattress & bed combo instead a 2'nd SVS..!
Jejejeje.....J/K.

T-rush

hey craig, did you get to test the a7-900 yet? Or did you go play golf..

I took my Dad golfing today. We had a blast :)

Wow...been away from this thread for a while. Came back today to see that the Fathom is no longer king of the musical subs. Is the PB13 that much better for music than the F113? I was ready to pull the trigger on a Fathom today but saw this thread and it has me re-thinking my plan...

I took my Dad golfing today. We had a blast

Glad you had a nice. day. There's always next week.

Wow...been away from this thread for a while. Came back today to see that the Fathom is no longer king of the musical subs. Is the PB13 that much better for music than the F113? I was ready to pull the trigger on a Fathom today but saw this thread and it has me re-thinking my plan...
Craigs review shows the ultra to be the best in terms of music but there is another thread that compares the two and most people thought the fathom slightly better. Its one of those opinion things. There seems to be a good consensus though that the svs ultra13 is very good with music. Whether its better than the ultra is not unanimously agreed upon.

Glad you had a nice. day. There's always next week.


Craigs review shows the ultra to be the best in terms of music but there is another thread that compares the two and most people thought the fathom slightly better. Its one of those opinion things. There seems to be a good consensus though that the svs ultra13 is very good with music. Whether its better than the ultra is not unanimously agreed upon.

In my blind tests, both subs were on an equal footing on most music.

Where the Ultra edged the Fathom was on high output music tracks below 25 Hz. Check out Steely Dan's 2AN DVD-A for a good example.

In the other test the subs were all in different locations which can make a huge difference. Either way deciding on the ultra or the fathom should be based on looks, size, and price. You can't lose.

Any thoughts from AVS members on SVS PB-13 versus Epik Conquest for pure .1 (LFE-only) output. Priorities being the best choice for non-music, highest quality, lowest frequency output. Chosen unit will serve in addition to two existing LFE-only SVS PC-Ultra subs in 12 hz tune - so emphasizing that I am really looking for additional output in the very lowest frequencies obtainable with one of these units.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!!

The Conquest is huge, has an 18" woofer, two 6" ports, and a 1000 watt amp. It almost certainly will have greater oputput than the Ultra. Sound quality will remain to be seen. The Ultra will be tough to beat in that area.

The Conquest is huge, has an 18" woofer, two 6" ports, and a 1000 watt amp. It almost certainly will have greater oputput than the Ultra.

Sound quality will remain to be seen.
That's the big question with all of the Epik subs.

That's the big question with all of the Epik subs.

That is key. After hearing the new SVS PC Ultra, I was just floored by the sound quality. All the extension and output in the world means nothing to me if it sounds bad.

I'm thinking of upgrading my sub, and I've found this comparison very useful, thanks Craig! I was set on the HSU VTF3 M3, as it seemed like the best bang for the buck. Then I read that the Outlaw LFM-1EX is on sale along with the SMS-1 EQ for $999! Since the Outlaw subs are HSU designed, the question is, would the Outlaw/SMS combo offer better performance than either the HSU for $699 or the SVS Plus currently on sale for $799? All 3 subs seem capable, but I'm thinking the inclusion of the EQ would make the Outlaw combo the best deal. Any comments?

JeffreyGTS has both ... and seems pretty impressed with the new eD sub.

I can see a new $600 comparo in the near future ... the eD, the Valor and the MFW-15 from AV123.

I am very impressed. I think for $600 it is a steal. Great sub. It is good on music but it really shines with home theater. I was playing the last battle scene of Saving Private Ryan and it was ridiculous. I still have the PB10 NSD and hooked it up again and played that scene with the SVS, no comparison. Don't get me wrong, the SVS is a great sub and for a smaller room it would do great it just couldn't hang with the eD. The SVS PB12-NSD steps it up over the 10 obviously but still can't beat the eD. I also think that on music, the eD beats them both.

My problem is, is I made the mistake of demoing the new SVS PC-Ultra last weekend and fell in love. I should have just been happy with the eD and left it at that. :)

Craig,

Many thanks for the outstanding work; you may have commented somewhere in these 112 pages on this, but do you have an opinion on the SVS PC Ultra and how it might compare with the PB-13? Thanks again!

[QUOTE=JEFFREY GTS;11779227]I am very impressed. I think for $600 it is a steal. Great sub. It is good on music but it really shines with home theater. I was playing the last battle scene of Saving Private Ryan and it was ridiculous. I still have the PB10 NSD and hooked it up again and played that scene with the SVS, no comparison. Don't get me wrong, the SVS is a great sub and for a smaller room it would do great it just couldn't hang with the eD. ...QUOTE]

Way to spoil your A5-350 by demoing the PB13! lol, it was probably trying to hide while the PB13 was giving it a good pounding.

Another question for you, how do you feel two PB10s, or a PB10 colocated with a PB12-NSD would pit against the A5-350? You are really making that sub out to be a $600-$800 winner. Has ED had any reliability problems with Amps failing or anything else I should be aware of before pulling the trigger on an A5-350?

Has ED had any reliability problems with Amps failing or anything else I should be aware of before pulling the trigger on an A5-350?

The only problem with the LT/550's is that they don't like dead shorts...if you call that a problem. As it's physically impossible to do it in an A5-350, I'd say there won't be any issues at all.

[QUOTE=JEFFREY GTS;11779227]I am very impressed. I think for $600 it is a steal. Great sub. It is good on music but it really shines with home theater. I was playing the last battle scene of Saving Private Ryan and it was ridiculous. I still have the PB10 NSD and hooked it up again and played that scene with the SVS, no comparison. Don't get me wrong, the SVS is a great sub and for a smaller room it would do great it just couldn't hang with the eD. ...QUOTE]

Way to spoil your A5-350 by demoing the PB13! lol, it was probably trying to hide while the PB13 was giving it a good pounding.

Another question for you, how do you feel two PB10s, or a PB10 colocated with a PB12-NSD would pit against the A5-350? You are really making that sub out to be a $600-$800 winner. Has ED had any reliability problems with Amps failing or anything else I should be aware of before pulling the trigger on an A5-350?


The colocating of 2 PB10's would be sick. I really like the sound of the PB10 but just wanted more output, two in a corner would do that for you. I don't know about the other option of the 12 and 10 combo. I have always heard that when doing dual subs to keep them the same.

Craigs review shows the ultra to be the best in terms of music but there is another thread that compares the two and most people thought the fathom slightly better. Its one of those opinion things. There seems to be a good consensus though that the svs ultra13 is very good with music. Whether its better than the ultra is not unanimously agreed upon.

Where is this "other thread" where people that have heard both are directly comparing them? I did a quick search and browse and couldn't find it -- but it sounds like it would be an interesting discussion. Thanks!

Where is this "other thread" where people that have heard both are directly comparing them? I did a quick search and browse and couldn't find it -- but it sounds like it would be an interesting discussion. Thanks!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=913510

for your reading enjoyment.

Craig,

Any additional comments on the a7-900. It sounds like it goes low and loud, but how is sound quality throughout the 20-60hz range?

Where is this "other thread" where people that have heard both are directly comparing them? I did a quick search and browse and couldn't find it -- but it sounds like it would be an interesting discussion. Thanks!

I would be careful on using the info from that other comparison as a basis for a purchase for a whole host of reasons not least of which;

1) The subs were not located in the same position, or even close, or even in the best location in the room.
2) It's possible that the amp issue on the Ultra that ended the comparison affected its overall sound quality.
3) None were set up at their best, eq, aro, whatever - a sub that's preferred in the default settings will not necessarily be preferred when they've been tweaked to show their best.
4) The comparison was not blinded.

In fact, other than an enjoyable read the comparisons were absolutely pointless as a means to determine which sub was subjectively the "best".

I'm looking forward to the next one though which promises to be far more useful and informative.

I'm thinking of upgrading my sub, and I've found this comparison very useful, thanks Craig! I was set on the HSU VTF3 M3, as it seemed like the best bang for the buck. Then I read that the Outlaw LFM-1EX is on sale along with the SMS-1 EQ for $999! Since the Outlaw subs are HSU designed, the question is, would the Outlaw/SMS combo offer better performance than either the HSU for $699 or the SVS Plus currently on sale for $799? All 3 subs seem capable, but I'm thinking the inclusion of the EQ would make the Outlaw combo the best deal. Any comments?


For $999, the Outlaw and the SMS-1 is a great deal. I would get the Outlaw combo if I need another subwoofer.

For $999, the Outlaw and the SMS-1 is a great deal. I would get the Outlaw combo if I need another subwoofer.

that is a good deal and for $1198 more, you can add 2 more subs

so for $2200 you get a sms-1 and 3 subs that can go down to 16hz and the sms-1 has output for 3 subs, how convenient :D

How is SVS going to sell their PB12/plus/2 if the ultra is that much better in sound quality, similar output and price?

How is SVS going to sell their PB12/plus/2 if the ultra is that much better in sound quality, similar output and price?

Good observation, they probably won't to anyone in their right mind. It will probably be significantly altered in some form, possibly price or dropped from the line altogether in favor of some other offering that offers more value.

How is SVS going to sell their PB12/plus/2 if the ultra is that much better in sound quality, similar output and price?


From the SVS website....


Powered Box Sub 12", Dual Plus Woofers
Premium Finishes Now Only! $1,199

That is a start.

Then I read that the Outlaw LFM-1EX is on sale along with the SMS-1 EQ for $999!

Is this deal still available? The outlaw site was down for me at the moment.

In my blind tests, both subs were on an equal footing on most music.

Where the Ultra edged the Fathom was on high output music tracks below 25 Hz. Check out Steely Dan's 2AN DVD-A for a good example.
My use is music not HT so with the PB13U up against my EP500 I must say I have been very impressed. This has been a big surprise after the disappointing PB12NSD.:(

John

The 13 Ultra has evolved considerably from the earlier SVS models.

Powered Box Sub 12", Dual Plus Woofers
Premium Finishes Now Only! $1,199
Wow...

So much for me selling my Plus/2. :(

Those prices may be short term. It says overstock. The textered black is $1299 still.

I don't know about that, MK. You made a good point a couple of posts ago. I don't think the Plus/2 can justify a higher price any longer along side the 13Ultra.

I don't know about that, MK. You made a good point a couple of posts ago. I don't think the Plus/2 can justify a higher price any longer along side the 13Ultra.

i can't wait to see if they make an ultra/2

i can't wait to see if they make an ultra/2

Last I heard, it was not a priority due to the size and weight it would require.

Shipping would be outrageous as well....the latest single Ultra-13 weighs more than the previous Ultra/2.

Is this deal still available? The outlaw site was down for me at the moment.

The deal on the Outlaw sub and the Velodyne SMS-1 is still available, however, it is my understanding that the sale is not going to last much longer. If you are really interested you should order very soon.

Last I heard, it was not a priority due to the size and weight it would require.

Shipping would be outrageous as well....the latest single Ultra-13 weighs more than the previous Ultra/2.

Who knows what the SVS gang will do, but consider the influence that Epik and ED might have on them if their giant subs prove to be successful.

I don't know if "size" or "weight" will ever be issues to them, really :). The B4+ was a beast. But, then again, that could be the reason why that was discontinued... I dunno.

From a practicality standpoint, I see no real advantage of an Ultra/2 over a pair of Ultras. A pair vs. a single Ultra/2 allows a greater configuration flexibilty. They are easier to manuver. They can be separate or co-located. The current design makes them very stackable. They can even be turned on their side so that they stack less high or they can be side-by-side. I'd rather have a pair than a /2.

What is really a bargain is that in the US, they ship for only $99 each inspite of their size.

Craig, do you think you're rankings would remain the same if you tested them all again double blind?

Shipping would be outrageous as well....the latest single Ultra-13 weighs more than the previous Ultra/2.

Not quite. I just finished moving and packing my ol' ultra/2, and I can say it definitely heavier that a single PB13.

From a practicality standpoint, I see no real advantage of an Ultra/2 over a pair of Ultras. A pair vs. a single Ultra/2 allows a greater configuration flexibilty. They are easier to manuver. They can be separate or co-located. The current design makes them very stackable. They can even be turned on their side so that they stack less high or they can be side-by-side. I'd rather have a pair than a /2.

What is really a bargain is that in the US, they ship for only $99 each inspite of their size.

Well, that is their reasoning last time I chatted with them. Things are getting too heavy and there are advantages to dual seperate units.

Craig, do you think you're rankings would remain the same if you tested them all again double blind?

Since all testing was done blind, I don't think there would be a big change. But I could easily see some change ... this winter, when we are buried, I may do a couple of retests, just to see how much of a change is in order.

Maybe the "scores" are more a "92 ... +/- 2 points" ... if that makes sense.

Or maybe I will get lucky and have too much to do with new subs to run a re-test.

Golf with my dad was AWESOME today ... we took 3rd in a team tournament out of 42 teams.

Tomorrow I am golfing with a 76 year old uncle and 2 of his friends. My course is 6855 yards, their tees are 5344 yards.

We are playing even up for beer.

Are these three cool 70 somethings or what ? :D

Not quite. I just finished moving and packing my ol' ultra/2, and I can say it definitely heavier that a single PB13.

If memory serves, the Ultra/2 was 190 pounds to the Ultra 13's 155 ....

It would be nice if SVS did a "twin" package Ultra for, say, $2499 ... somewhat similar to what Outlaw does with their subs.

The A7 is ~ 500lbs packed, the Conquest 360lbs...if you're in the market for the big boys, the U13/2 size and weight wouldn't scare you off. It's just how big a market is this really...how many B4s and U/2s were sold. As Mike said, maybe a U13/2 would be an answer to the eD/Epik big honking sub challenge. I'm sure they are thinking about it. Add another 100lbs of driver/amp/box at least. Packed, a U13/2 would come in at a petite 275 - 300lbs gross weight (maybe). Expect shipping to go up ;).

As long as your home theater is on street level with fork lift access, then that shouldn't be a problem. :)

As long as your home theater is on street level with fork lift access, then that shouldn't be a problem. :)Yeah, I couldn't imagine having to manhandle one of these guys. Had to get my son over to help me place the U13. Reminds me when I was young, I lugged around a Hammond B3 and a pair of Leslie 122s. The organ was 300lbs, speakers around 175ea, IIRC. I was in my early 20s, but it was ridiculous getting setup...damn near left my nads on the floor a couple of times.

Those furniture sliders work really well except for on stairs.

Those furniture sliders work really well except for on stairs.There's always stairs, steps, thresholds or tight corners that intimidate me anymore :D.

the ultra/2 wouldn't be 155 x 2 because you're removing a top and a bottom wall

a pb12-plus weights 110 pounds and a plus/2 weighs 140

a def tech reference weighs 111 lbs and a trinity 175

an ultra/2 could save you a few pounds and a few bucks for those in the market for stacked ultras

people looking for that kind of performance don't care about no stinking weight :D

the ultra/2 wouldn't be 155 x 2 because you're removing a top and a bottom wall

No it wouldn't be x2, but the driver weighs 56lbs, a heftier amp, plus some extra mdf would probably increase the overall weight at least 100lbs, I'm guessing more...minimum 275lbs shipped...who wants to bet on the under ;)

The current amp doesn't way much in the PB13. Maybe 5lbs at best. Not sure a more powerfull amp for the PB13/2 would weigh that much more.

I don't think they could get by at the lower tuning with dual drivers and 1 or 2 3.5" ports. I don't see any gain with a U13/2.

For $999, the Outlaw and the SMS-1 is a great deal. I would get the Outlaw combo if I need another subwoofer.

OK, I bit the bullet and ordered the Outlaw "Rolling Thunder" special, the LFM-1EX and the SMS-1. I'll be sure to post my thoughts once I get my anxious hands on my new toys!

Hey Craig,

we ever going to get listening impressions on the ED? :)

i think we're going to need some bad weather. Its bound to happen sooner or later.

Here is a graph of the A7-900 being totally abused with a 20 Hz sine wave.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/a7900max20Hz.jpg

It is higher in distortion in "odd order" harmonics ... for example ...

60 Hz = -14 dB or appx. 20 % (CEA allows -15 dB)
100 Hz = -17 dB or appx. 13% (CEA allows -20 dB)
140 Hz = -21 dB or appx. 9% (CEA allows -30 dB)
180 Hz = -23 dB or appx. 7% (CEA allows -30 dB)

I will be finishing up some listening with a couple of friends this morning, and posting final results either tonight or tomorrow.

Craigsub, thanks for the Def Tech Trinity info and hooking me up with a deal. This sub simply rocks. It is perfect for my listening habits, I don't need to stress it one bit to get the low frequency and SPL I want. I will be going through my movie collection again that's for sure! :D

I'm still looking forward to a pic of the driver. :p:cool:

Craigsub, thanks for the Def Tech Trinity info and hooking me up with a deal. This sub simply rocks. It is perfect for my listening habits, I don't need to stress it one bit to get the low frequency and SPL I want. I will be going through my movie collection again that's for sure! :D

I'm still looking forward to a pic of the driver. :p:cool:

You are welcome ... the driver arrived Friday, and I will get pics of it and the "guts" of the Trinity, too. I just need to suck up to my wife to get it done. :)

craig, would you do some tests on those tiny subs like Paradigm's seismic 10 and 12

When will the new Epik Valor be tested ?

Craig,

what do you mean by odd order harmonics? or i should say, how does this impact the listening experience if at all?

much appreciated!

wow.. thats quite a bit of distortion. 117db @ 20hz though is pretty damn loud. I was playing around with some test tones and my conquest, and just running around 105db at 20hz shook my walls so bad i was scared i might knock something off the neighbors wall and get in trouble.. so i decided to stop there.

When will you be testing the MBM-12 in nearfield with another sub (HSU 3.3 turbo or HO)?

Bill

wow.. thats quite a bit of distortion. 117db @ 20hz though is pretty damn loud. I was playing around with some test tones and my conquest, and just running around 105db at 20hz shook my walls so bad i was scared i might knock something off the neighbors wall and get in trouble.. so i decided to stop there.


Maybe I am just nuts....105db doesn't even make me flinch. LOL

115db or bust in my book...

Hence my BURNING desire to add a 2nd subwoofer. If only I had the money right now!

105db doesnt make me flinch either with music but with tones its very loud.. at least from what i was experiencing. I was playing 122db in my car and didnt really think it was that loud. Whereas 122db in my apartment seemed incredibly loud.. Same meter in all of these tests. I think part of it is just my conditioning that its not nice to piss off others and if someone were next door, even 105db running tones will bey very loud.. It was shaking the house pretty good. In my car however i feel more isolated and i'm not bugging people. Plus i'm used to a loud car stereo but i'm not really used to a loud in home stereo since this one is so new.

Come on, dying to know how it compares with the rest of the subs here. Craig, please post the results ASAP.

Is it better to stack two subs together? I have 2 Infinity PS212 Subs.

wow.. thats quite a bit of distortion. 117db @ 20hz though is pretty damn loud. I was playing around with some test tones and my conquest, and just running around 105db at 20hz shook my walls so bad i was scared i might knock something off the neighbors wall and get in trouble.. so i decided to stop there.

That was actually 115 dB ... and this was @ 2 meters outdoors. With any kind of room gain, 120 + dB will be hit in most home theaters.

The distortion is pretty close to the max allowed by the CEA standards, though I was using a harder sine wave test vs. the CEA shorter term.

When will the new Epik Valor be tested ?

As soon as Chad gets back to me about ordering a Valor, Castle and a Conquest. :)

Craig,

Do you have an opinion on the SVS PC Ultra and how it might compare with the PB-13?

The A7-900 is one remarkable subwoofer. It is not for everyone, just due to its sheer size. But for $2000 delivered to one's door, I love this subwoofer. In strict performance terms, it delivers higher SPL than does a PAIR of PB-13 Ultras.

On music, as many who were at the GTG experienced, it is exceptional. It remains linear on every bass note, regardless the volume level, at any volume I can tolerate in my 12,000 cubic foot finished garage.

In the normal theater room, it is absolutely incredible. On WOTW, the Pods emerge scene was astonishing. It literally knocked to pictures off the wall.

Yet it can handle the delicate bass of something like Diana Krall's DVD-A with ease. And my standard Steely Dan's 2AN took on epic proportions in its delivery of bass through the Elemental Design's beast.

This subwoofer sets, yet again, a new standard for performance.

The Home Theater Score is 63, Music score is 53, for a total of 116 points.

wow!!! thank you craig for taking the time to test these subs. i wish i had your job!

I want to know if the A7-900 is more accurate than the PB13. I know it's 1 point higher than the PB13, but you've said that deep extension is also part of the music score. Strictly music accuracy, not how deep it goes or how loud, which sub is more accurate? Is the PB13 really more accurate than the JL f113 or is the PB13 just extends lower and the bottom octave sound better than the JL and gets the higher mark?

BTW, do you think if the SVS had a product with 2 18 inch woofers (based on SVS's style (super high excursion, big enclosure...) ) would it would be louder than the A7-900?
How many PB13 do you think we need to match the A7-900's output? Do you think if the JL f113's driver was in a enclosure as big as the PB13, would it go louder than the PB13?

BTW again, you should erase the A7-900 from the pending subwoofers list.

The A7-900 is one remarkable subwoofer. It is not for everyone, just due to its sheer size. But for $2000 delivered to one's door, I love this subwoofer. In strict performance terms, it delivers higher SPL than does a PAIR of PB-13 Ultras.

On music, as many who were at the GTG experienced, it is exceptional. It remains linear on every bass note, regardless the volume level, at any volume I can tolerate in my 12,000 cubic foot finished garage.

In the normal theater room, it is absolutely incredible. On WOTW, the Pods emerge scene was astonishing. It literally knocked to pictures off the wall.

Yet it can handle the delicate bass of something like Diana Krall's DVD-A with ease. And my standard Steely Dan's 2AN took on epic proportions in its delivery of bass through the Elemental Design's beast.

This subwoofer sets, yet again, a new standard for performance.

The Home Theater Score is 63, Music score is 53, for a total of 116 points.

The A7-900 is one amazing beast setting a new standard, definitely can be expected coming the guys at eD. If it can output more than a pair of PB-13 Ultras, then it also sets a new standard in terms of value ($2000 shipped vs $3000 plus shipping). Craigsub, given the harmonic distortion you gave earlier, I'm surprise you gave a higher score in music term than the PB-13 Ultra. Did you mention you took the measurements outside the house? I wonder if this has any adverse effects in the distortion measurements of the A7-900. Anyway, I'm sure somebody with a warehouse can sure throw a party with the beast in the corner lol.

I want to know if the A7-900 is more accurate than the PB13. I know it's 1 point higher than the PB13, but you've said that deep extension is also part of the music score. Strictly music accuracy, not how deep it goes or how loud, which sub is more accurate? Is the PB13 really more accurate than the JL f113 or is the PB13 just extends lower and the bottom octave sound better than the JL and gets the higher mark?

BTW, do you think if the SVS had a product with 2 18 inch woofers (based on SVS's style (super high excursion, big enclosure...) ) would it would be louder than the A7-900?
How many PB13 do you think we need to match the A7-900's output? Do you think if the JL f113's driver was in a enclosure as big as the PB13, would it go louder than the PB13?

BTW again, you should erase the A7-900 from the pending subwoofers list.

Extension does play a part in music reproduction - I mentioned it in the pas in regards to the Fathom 113 to the Ultra, that they were pretty much a match above 25 Hz ... and the eD subwoofer does the same. Above 25 Hz, all three subs are hard to impossible to tell apart under blind testing.

Below 25 Hz, the A7-900 just dominates - nothing seems to get in its way.

Tough question about the "what if", should SVS develop a PB18-Ultra/2. I think SVS has a winner on its hands, which can be put into most rooms.

I don't allow for the "WAF" ratings in the tests done here, but I can tell you not too many (being politically incorrect) wives will tolerate a 435 pound monolith finished in rough black paint into the house.

Finally ... The Fathom Driver in a larger, ported sub ... THAT would be interesting.

The A7-900 is one amazing beast setting a new standard, definitely can be expected coming the guys at eD. If it can output more than a pair of PB-13 Ultras, then it also sets a new standard in terms of value ($2000 shipped vs $3000 plus shipping). Craigsub, given the harmonic distortion you gave earlier, I'm surprise you gave a higher score in music term than the PB-13 Ultra. Did you mention you took the measurements outside the house? I wonder if this has any adverse effects in the distortion measurements of the A7-900. Anyway, I'm sure somebody with a warehouse can sure throw a party with the beast in the corner lol.

Those distortion levels are at the subwoofer's limit ... drop a couple of dB, and the distortion is a LOT less.

I just thought it was cool to see a subwoofer delivering that level of bass (115 dB) @ 20 Hz. :D

:D:D

Nice..

18's for the win.

Craig - thanks again for all your effort. How do you believe the Ed A7-700 (2 x 15") would match up against (2) PB-13 Ultras in terms of SPL in a 3,500ft3 HT/listening room?

I showed my wife the picture of you with the A7-900 and got the expected; "there is no way in he** you are going to put that 435 pound thing in the basement". However, when I showed her the picture of the A7-700 (only 250 pounds):), I got an unexpected "that more reasonable". She is a physical therapist, so I think she was more concerned about my back that her fine china and wall art in the rest of the house:D

Anyway, do you have any "gut feelings" (pun intended) how the A7-700 would score in relation to the PB-13U and Fantom f113 in terms of music and HT?

Thanks again,
Steve

Craig - thanks again for all your effort. How do you believe the Ed A7-700 (2 x 15") would match up against (2) PB-13 Ultras in terms of SPL in a 3,500ft3 HT/listening room?

I showed my wife the picture of you with the A7-900 and got the expected; "there is no way in he** you are going to put that 435 pound thing in the basement". However, when I showed her the picture of the A7-700 (only 250 pounds):), I got an unexpected "that more reasonable". She is a physical therapist, so I think she was more concerned about my back that her fine china and wall art in the rest of the house:D

Anyway, do you have any "gut feelings" (pun intended) how the A7-700 would score in relation to the PB-13U and Fantom f113 in terms of music and HT?

Thanks again,
Steve

The Ultra pair would probably yield a couple of extra dB in SPL, and I think either option would be more than adequate for your theater room. :)

Would you give us some dates on the pending subs?

I had a feeling that monster would do well, especially for home theater. The music side is a nice suprise.

Craig,

Did you have the monster downfiring or forward firing?

The Ultra pair would probably yield a couple of extra dB in SPL, and I think either option would be more than adequate for your theater room. :)

Craig

The question for me is how would one A7-700 stack up against a PB13. They are close to the same price. The PB13 wins out in size and WAF but if you have a place for it would not the A7-700 be more than a match for one PB13.

Tom

Chengbin - I have not gotten word from Epik nor AV123 in regards to when I can expect delivery.

JimP - It is standing up, drivers facing forward. It is amazing how it blends into the background ... :D

Craig

The question for me is how would one A7-700 stack up against a PB13. They are close to the same price. The PB13 wins out in size and WAF but if you have a place for it would not the A7-700 be more than a match for one PB13.

Tom

Tom - I am pretty certain the single A7-700 would handily outgun the Ultra, the one caveat being (as you mentioned) its size.

^$%#^@ Craig! NOw the wait for my Ed sub will get longer due to all the new orders due to this!

J/k!

The A7-900 is one remarkable subwoofer. It is not for everyone, just due to its sheer size. But for $2000 delivered to one's door, I love this subwoofer. In strict performance terms, it delivers higher SPL than does a PAIR of PB-13 Ultras.

On music, as many who were at the GTG experienced, it is exceptional. It remains linear on every bass note, regardless the volume level, at any volume I can tolerate in my 12,000 cubic foot finished garage.

In the normal theater room, it is absolutely incredible. On WOTW, the Pods emerge scene was astonishing. It literally knocked to pictures off the wall.

Yet it can handle the delicate bass of something like Diana Krall's DVD-A with ease. And my standard Steely Dan's 2AN took on epic proportions in its delivery of bass through the Elemental Design's beast.

This subwoofer sets, yet again, a new standard for performance.

The Home Theater Score is 63, Music score is 53, for a total of 116 points.

OMG, this is breaking all the rules !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

a 18" ported sub beats the 13" sealed JL fathom at music ???????????

everything i read 10 years ago is no longer valid. they used to say nothing over 10" was musical and it had to be sealed and if you need more, you just used more drivers

i guess 10 years ago, they never envisioned long throw woofers with 100 pound magnets :D

hey craig, will you keep the eD a7-900 around so you can compare it directly to the epik? I know it occupies a huge amount of real estate, and that you may not get the epik for awhile, but it would be real cool to do a direct comparison.

hey craig, will you keep the eD a7-900 around so you can compare it directly to the epik? I know it occupies a huge amount of real estate, and that you may not get the epik for awhile, but it would be real cool to do a direct comparison.

i believe craig said it was going into his cigar bar/lounge

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11651207&postcount=2976

thank you craigsub for the very informative and helpful post. I actually read through the whole thing since i'm in the market for a sub.

Does anyone by chance know whats the ideal size room for the subs that craig reviewed. Obviously subs like the fathom and A7 are for large rooms, but at about 3000 cu ft what would the ideal pts. range be?

I checked the VTF-2 MK 3 (86 pt rated) and HSU's website gave it a level 3 loudness level( up to 4500 cu. ft) so would it be safe to assume that the 83 pt rated A2-300 would be a good fit for my 3000cu ft room?

hey craig, will you keep the eD a7-900 around so you can compare it directly to the epik? I know it occupies a huge amount of real estate, and that you may not get the epik for awhile, but it would be real cool to do a direct comparison.

I am with you on this one!

Yes I'm waiting for the Conquest vs. eD comparison :).

I did get an email from Chad, and they are almost caught up on the order process. Look for something more definitive this week.

And yes, the eD and Conquest will be pegged against each other.

For further update, the Ultra is still in the room, too, and it is a fantastic subwoofer. It is of reasonable size and still delivers ALL the bass we need in a 4500 ^ 3 foot room.

The level of performance in subwoofers has really "ramped up" in the past 24 months.

OTK ... Bill Duddleston (Founder of Legacy - GREAT speakers) said this when asked if his new 12 inch drivers were "fast" enough ...

"You are in a rowboat that is taking on water, do you want a 12 inch wide bucket, or an 8 inch wide bucket, for removing the water faster?"

thank you craigsub for the very informative and helpful post. I actually read through the whole thing since i'm in the market for a sub.

Does anyone by chance know whats the ideal size room for the subs that craig reviewed. Obviously subs like the fathom and A7 are for large rooms, but at about 3000 cu ft what would the ideal pts. range be?

I checked the VTF-2 MK 3 (86 pt rated) and HSU's website gave it a level 3 loudness level( up to 4500 cu. ft) so would it be safe to assume that the 83 pt rated A2-300 would be a good fit for my 3000cu ft room?

It's really a matter of budget - the A2-300 won't yield 115/121 dB levels SPL @ 20 Hz in your room.

What it will do is signifigantly enhance the performance in your room more than any other $350 you can spend. :)

OTK ... Bill Duddleston (Founder of Legacy - GREAT speakers) said this when asked if his new 12 inch drivers were "fast" enough ...

"You are in a rowboat that is taking on water, do you want a 12 inch wide bucket, or an 8 inch wide bucket, for removing the water faster?"

That is a beautiful, dead-on analogy.

craig......!! would u recommend for the A7-900 to be down-firing or forward-firing......? because in my room forward-firing blends much better than the normal position.

craig......!! would u recommend for the A7-900 to be down-firing or forward-firing......? because in my room forward-firing blends much better than the normal position.

I like it better in the forward firing position. It sounds better, and when you have something this big, it won't exactly "blend". The 18 inch drivers just plain look cool, too.

It never ceases to amaze me how much this website gives you upgraditis if you come here long enough :D

The A7-900 sounds like a great sub, and for $2000 shipped is even more economical then a lot of dual subs out there. If only it was available last year when I bought my dual HSU HO's I probably would have bought that instead.

WAF is not a problem for me, my basement theater is mine to do as I please, my wife gets the other 2 floors of the house :D

Oh well, at least my dual HO's and MBM continue to put a big smile on my face. WHEN I eventually upgrade it will be interesting what is on the market at that time.

As always, thanks for the reviews Craig, even though I am sure you have made a lot of us want to change our subs every few months :D

Craig, would you say the JL f113 is unbeatable for its size?

Craig, would you say the JL f113 is unbeatable for its size?

Absolutely, it is. It delivers on the promise Bob Carver made in 1996 with his first "True Subwoofer" ... Killer bass in a reasonable package.

Craig,

Do you have an opinion on the SVS PC Ultra and how it might compare with the PB-13? The cylinder form of the PC would fit my room better but I dont want to sacrifice quality. Thanks.

Craig,

Do you have an opinion on the SVS PC Ultra and how it might compare with the PB-13? The cylinder form of the PC would fit my room better but I dont want to sacrifice quality. Thanks.

The cylinders are tuned slightly higher, and may lose 1 dB below 20 Hz ... while probably gaining 1 dB around 25 Hz. I have not measured this, nor seen measurements, but am rather speculating based on cabinet volume and porting.

In a real world test, I doubt anyone would hear/feel a difference between the 2 - and the Cylinder Ultra is a great option for getting killer bass while only using up 1.78 ^ 2 feet of floor space.

I like it better in the forward firing position. It sounds better, and when you have something this big, it won't exactly "blend". The 18 inch drivers just plain look cool, too.

Touche'. Sometimes I like to take the covers off of my bass coffin so I can see all four drivers pounding away in unison.
http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/3978/dsc00031kz0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

OTK ... Bill Duddleston (Founder of Legacy - GREAT speakers) said this when asked if his new 12 inch drivers were "fast" enough ...

"You are in a rowboat that is taking on water, do you want a 12 inch wide bucket, or an 8 inch wide bucket, for removing the water faster?"

if the 12 inch bucket has 3 big 3" holes on the bottom i'll take the 8"

:D:D:D:D:D

if the 12 inch bucket has 3 big 3" holes on the bottom i'll take the 8"

:D:D:D:D:D

When you find out the Def Tech BP-10's have "holes" in them ... :p:D

When you find out the Def Tech BP-10's have "holes" in them ... :p:D

that's why i got rid of them and got my bp-2000s (sealed from head to toe) so are all my powerfields :D:D

i actually turned down a brand new pair of bp-2000TL's and took our floor model bp-2000s for my surrounds because they were sealed and the new bp-2000TLs were "transmission line loaded" and i didn't think they would match my front pair of sealed bp-2000s. another reason i turned down the 2000TLs was i actually had the new "at the time" 18TL sub in my home and took it back the same day. it was nothing compared to my 15" sealed powerfield and i just started buying more powerfields

def tech quickly dropped the TL line and switched to the current passive radiator design for both it's subs and it's powered towers

i really wish def tech still made the bp-30s for your new poll, they are similar to the bp-10 but with twice the mid drivers (2 forward and 2 rear) the bp-10s only have 1 forward and 1 rear. the bp-30s were $750 each retail and were amazing for the price (i still own a pair tucked away for another room i'm planning)

i think def tech over-marketed their powered towers and people stopped buying the bp-30 so they dropped it from their line-up

i'm not preaching sealed, i'm just saying that everything i read back in the day said that sealed was the way to go. all i'm saying is that it seems the rules are changing. doesn't matter to me one way or the other as long as they sound good :D:D

i was actually skeptical of the trinity with it's PR's but after hearing yours and others thoughts on them, i was surprised

i'm still love my towers but i'm looking to upgrade my LFE subs. the powerfields (all 6 of them) blow the windows out from about 20-25hz up but they just don't go low enough for today's movies

keep in mind that my powerfields were designed 7 years prior to dvd and were actually designed to go with def tech's first stereo speakers, the original bp-10 and bp20s so i'd say it's time for an upgrade :D:D

OTK ... A passive radiator design is not a "sealed" design. It merely uses a different method of utilizing resonance to augment deep bass reproduction than a port does.

The theoretical advantage of the Passive radiator is no port noise. The Theoretical advantage of the port is getting a PR tuned "just right" is a very difficult task.

In actual practice, either system can work very well.

Craigsub, I was wondering what Subsonic Filter setting you have selected on the PB13 (20/15/10/Sealed)?

Oh well, at least my dual HO's and MBM continue to put a big smile on my face. WHEN I eventually upgrade it will be interesting what is on the market at that time.

Kevin,
I currently have a HSU VTF3.3 and am considering adding either an MBM12 or another VTF3.3. Do you have an opinion on which would give me more impact for HT use? My room is 4500 cubic feet. At some point, I may add both, but for now, am considering one of these two options as my next purchase.
Thanks,
Greg

OTK ... A passive radiator design is not a "sealed" design. It merely uses a different method of utilizing resonance to augment deep bass reproduction than a port does.

The theoretical advantage of the Passive radiator is no port noise. The Theoretical advantage of the port is getting a PR tuned "just right" is a very difficult task.

In actual practice, either system can work very well.

i think you misunderstood me. i'm well aware that passive radiators are not sealed which is why i said i was skeptical of the trinity at first

Kevin,
I currently have a HSU VTF3.3 and am considering adding either an MBM12 or another VTF3.3. Do you have an opinion on which would give me more impact for HT use? My room is 4500 cubic feet. At some point, I may add both, but for now, am considering one of these two options as my next purchase.
Thanks,
Greg

I have 6000 cubic ft of space and run both my 3.3 & MBM locally. 3.3 is at the end of the couch, 6 feet from me. The MBM is 2 feet behind me and the spread between them is about 9 feet or so. The bass feels good no matter where you sit in the room.

Bill

Craigsub,

Know you are getting a pile of MFW-15's, but will you be testing "One" to throw in the mix of future rankings?

Thanks,
Ted

p.s. You've Got Mail! :D

Kevin,
I currently have a HSU VTF3.3 and am considering adding either an MBM12 or another VTF3.3. Do you have an opinion on which would give me more impact for HT use? My room is 4500 cubic feet. At some point, I may add both, but for now, am considering one of these two options as my next purchase.
Thanks,
Greg

What do you feel you are lacking, headroom or mid bass? A second sub will even out your response or add some db overall, depending on where it is placed in reference to the other sub, while the MBM will help in the mid bass plus help the 3.3 since it doesn't have to cover the full frequency range.

Me personally, I would add the second sub, then the MBM later, if you still think you need it. I just added the MBM to my duals about a month ago and have noticed a difference.

My space is about 6000 cuft

Good luck

I've been torn between the SVS PB12NSD and the ED 350. Is there anything else I should consider for real accuracy for music, but will also work for some heavy gaming and HT?

Well when I knew Chad many years ago from his east coast days, he was the first guy to really show a bunch of us what high SPL 16 hz tones felt like (using a single 15" w/ a 15"pr, I believe) - built in a woodshop where most of the work was for cars, he built the box like it was a toss off project and used a crown amp to drive it, we watched with our jaws agape as stuff started rattleing off the walls from CONSIDERABLE distance in a huge building.
Time to buy a Conquest.

Craigsub,

Know you are getting a pile of MFW-15's, but will you be testing "One" to throw in the mix of future rankings?

Thanks,
Ted

p.s. You've Got Mail! :D

That whole "I'm getting 8" was just my teasing Mark Schifter for posting he was getting 6 ... I will get 2 of them, as they are marketing them as a $999 pair ... and see how they do as a single and a pair.

Anyone think I should sell my Dual SVS PB12-NSDs? And get the eDA7 - 700? I love my SVS subs but I would like more kick for my music.

How about the ED 350 vs the PB12?

i'm still love my towers but i'm looking to upgrade my LFE subs. the powerfields (all 6 of them) blow the windows out from about 20-25hz up but they just don't go low enough for today's movies

CFG Labs Measures: Definitive Technology Powerfield 15 TL Subwoofer

"This chart shows the close-miked frequency response of the Powerfield 15 TL subwoofer, with the internal lowpass filter bypassed. We measured the response at 45 to 136 Hz, +/-3 dB." :eek:
http://www.definitivetech.com/reviews/PF15TLHT.pdf

Of course, they are a "sealed" sub, so they have a shallower roll-off below the -3 dB point. By 20 Hz, they should *only* be down by about 12 to 14 dB. With room gain, you could still be getting some decent output down to 20 - 25 or so Hz.

keep in mind that my powerfields were designed 7 years prior to dvd and were actually designed to go with def tech's first stereo speakers, the original bp-10 and bp20s so i'd say it's time for an upgrade :D:D
Agreed! Time to upgrade. Check out virtually *anything* in craigsub's list. Except for the Rocket Tyke's, they'll all have deeper extension than the Powerfields. Oh, and start with just 2. Once you have real, deep bass extension into the 20's, you'll probably find that you don't need 6 subs. In fact, according to this white paper, anything more than 4 is probably not beneficial:
http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

Also, once you get subs with real, deep extension, you may find that Bass Management is more than just a "bandaid". :rolleyes:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11568605&highlight=bandaid#post11568605

Craig (John)

CFG Labs Measures: Definitive Technology Powerfield 15 TL Subwoofer

"This chart shows the close-miked frequency response of the Powerfield 15 TL subwoofer, with the internal lowpass filter bypassed. We measured the response at 45 to 136 Hz, +/-3 dB." :eek:
http://www.definitivetech.com/reviews/PF15TLHT.pdf

Of course, they are a "sealed" sub, so they have a shallower roll-off below the -3 dB point. By 20 Hz, they should *only* be down by about 12 to 14 dB. With room gain, you could still be getting some decent output down to 20 - 25 or so Hz.


Agreed! Time to upgrade. Check out virtually *anything* in craigsub's list. Except for the Rocket Tyke's, they'll all have deeper extension than the Powerfields. Oh, and start with just 2. Once you have real, deep bass extension into the 20's, you'll probably find that you don't need 6 subs. In fact, according to this white paper, anything more than 4 is probably not beneficial:
http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

Also, once you get subs with real, deep extension, you may find that Bass Management is more than just a "bandaid". :rolleyes:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11568605&highlight=bandaid#post11568605

Craig (John)

this will probably be about the 5th time i posted this, LOL

the powerfield 1500 is a totally different subwoofer than the 15TL (i used to sell the 15TL, i never liked it)

with sine waves from http://www.realmofexcursion.com/ my powerfields were razor flat down to 30hz and down about 14db @ 20hz

i wish they had individual test tones between 21 and 29hz. they have one for 25hz but it's from another category of test tones but it doesn't matter, i'm well aware it's time to upgrade :cool:

you are correct, i will probably be good with about 4 of these new generation subs. probably 2 stacked on the left and 2 more on the right or one eD on each side. i'm still waiting to see how the conquest does

my powerfields served me well for 10+ years

p.s. bass management is still a bandaid :D

i wish they had individual test tones between 21 and 29hz. they have one for 25hz but it's from another category of test tones but it doesn't matter, i'm well aware it's time to upgrade :cool:



Here ya go:

http://www.ronelmm.com/tones/

Here ya go:

http://www.ronelmm.com/tones/

thanks :)

razor flat down to 30hz and down about 14db @ 20hz

p.s. bass management is still a bandaid :D
Ummmm... yeeeeeeaaaaah. :rolleyes:

Upgrade your subs and then get back to us. Once you have subs with more extension and output than your mains, you may have a different *opinion* of Bass Management.

Craig (John)

Ummmm... yeeeeeeaaaaah. :rolleyes:

Upgrade your subs and then get back to us. Once you have subs with more extension and output than your mains, you may have a different *opinion* of Bass Management.

Craig (John)

if all 5 speakers are flat down to 23hz ±3
dB, where should i set the bass management crossover in a home theater receiver?

if all 5 speakers are flat down to 23hz ±3
dB, where should i set the bass management crossover in a home theater receiver?

That would depend on what sort of clean, undistorted levels those speakers are capable of generating from, let's say, 23hz to 80hz. Have you tested their output across that range? They may be flat to 23hz at 80db. How about at 105db? They better be able to move a lot of air.

That would depend on what sort of clean, undistorted levels those speakers are capable of generating from, let's say, 23hz to 80hz. Have you tested their output across that range?

i haven't tested them. stereo review measured them as:

"Our closemiked
measurement of the subwoofer’s
response agreed exactly with the manufacturer’s
data, including the effect of its
equalizer control. In its middle position,
which we used for listening and measurements,
the subwoofer response was ±3
dB from 23 to 100 Hz."

i have been running them large with no crossover at reference levels for over 10 years with no distortion

i run them set to large with no LFE. i always sent the LFE channel out by itself to the other subs

It is entirely possible that you have no need to crossover your main speakers. That is the ideal scenario. Sub for LFE only.

Bass redirection is just a matter of practicality for many so that smaller speakers can be used without any losing any frequency response or overdriving them. You don't have smaller speakers. You might not need any bass redirection.

It is entirely possible that you have no need to crossover your main speakers. That is the ideal scenario. Sub for LFE only.

Bass redirection is just a matter of practicality for many so that smaller speakers can be used without any losing any frequency response or overdriving them. You don't have smaller speakers. You might not need any bass redirection.

yeah i have really pushed them to insane levels just to test them with all types of action movies with no problems

i just can't wait to get some real subs for my LFE channel :D

By the way, and a little OT: A brand new round of sub test results are posted on Shack. I'm not putting up the link here because it always draws too much heat.

The standouts are the LMS-5400 projects. The Fathom also tested pretty well.

By the way, and a little OT: A brand new round of sub test results are posted on Shack. I'm not putting up the link here because it always draws too much heat.

The standouts are the LMS-5400 projects. The Fathom also tested pretty well.

Wow, fantastic! I wasn't expecting this. Good numbers for the Fathom considering the small size.

Edit: The DIY LMS 5400 100L sub did very well too and not much bigger than the Fathom. If you could put a nice finish on that, including amp, and sell it for less than $2,000 that would be a killer deal.

xcjago,

An unknown here is how siginificant to its performance is the Crown amp. Even on the used market, it goes for about $1,000. (average off of ebay) I think it would be tough to reach your $2,000 target without cutting that amp cost.

Edit: The DIY LMS 5400 100L sub did very well too and not much bigger than the Fathom. If you could put a nice finish on that, including amp, and sell it for less than $2,000 that would be a killer deal.

Yep, and with the right power, you can get output better than two Fathoms (down low where it matters)...and with even better SQ for less money (LMS linearity is unreal), It was a no brainer for me. ;)

How hard is it to build a box?:) Finishing can take a little time depending on what you want, but not rocket science.

BTW, I got one of those amps (CE4000) for $500 off of ebay, another no brainer...
They commonly go for <$650 and a steal at that.

Even with an SMS-1 added to the mix, I have ~$2000 in the project; amp, EQ, driver, and finished Oak enclosure. (Not to mention the JL ARO is only a single band EQ)

You guys should really consider the DIY route. You can do soooo much with a little learning, patience and elbow grease. Hell, have someone build a professional enclosure for you, it will still be cheaper and better in the end. And the best part is the process of making the decisions, learning/discovery and building, can be loads of fun. After all anyone can listen, the real fun is in the process...

The only minor bummer is that at the moment the LMSs are unavailable until TC Sounds gets their dealer network established.

The F113 is a killer sub without a doubt. In my opinion one of the best out there. I was in the process of purchasing one (or two) when I decided to go the DIY route.

The only minor bummer is that at the moment the LMSs are unavailable until TC Sounds gets their dealer network established.



That is more than a minor bummer. They have been in that status for a while now which concerns me. Even when they were operating, that LMS was hard to get and who knows what the pricing is going to be when and if it does reappear. Too bad. That does seem to be the king of all drivers.

How hard is it to build a box? Finishing can take a little time depending on what you want, but not rocket science.
But building it right , well braced, and to tight tolerances, is not a simple thing for most people either. Look at the pictures posted for the inside bracing on some of the Epiks as an example.
The addition of the SMS-1 is a step in the right direction, now add a servo control and you're in business. Some of the hardest hitting subs I've ever heard have been DIY projects - and I hope that my new woodshop will be together this winter, but for many people time is money, and while they may make a ton of money, they cannot make or buy any more time.

That is more than a minor bummer. They have been in that status for a while now which concerns me. Even when they were operating, that LMS was hard to get and who knows what the pricing is going to be when and if it does reappear. Too bad. That does seem to be the king of all drivers.

Ya, for sure. I did (even though I did not have the money) snag another at the $875 when all the warnings went up on the their site. I figured I could always sell it if I got in a pinch. Others waited just a little too long. It really is a bummer becasue it was one of the better bargains in bass when you consider it as part of a package. Expensive driver yes, but darn good.

Of course, that value may not change drastically. We will have to see what the dealers will be willing to sell them for. All of the positive reviews don't help either.:eek: There may be one of those rogue dealers that go for volume.
The LMS was way over-priced when no one tested it...much like the Fathoms prior to their string of stellar reviews. ;)

Such is life in wooferville.

But building it right , well braced, and to tight tolerances, is not a simple thing for most people either. ... and while they may make a ton of money, they cannot make or buy any more time.

Man, you are one lucky camper to have a woodshop in the works. I always have to go over a buddy's house and use some of his stuff. I could do it with rudimentary stuff, but I don't have much room for 4X8 sheets in my tiny garage.

Winter is reason number ten I went DIY. It sure is nice to have a project to tweak and experiment with when it is 5 degrees outside. :)

I agree wholeheartedly! DIY is certainly not for eveyone.

And I don't want anyone to do something that will regret, but I just hear of many doing the same things I did. I bought one sub after another upgrading and upgrading in search of more and better. I wish I had some of that money back.:o

Just something to consider for someone that is in the market or looking for more.

I know many have just had their cabinet built and finished by a professional to mitigate the time factor. Sure, it is more expensive but can still have value. After all, you can get it built to your dimensions, finishes, colors, etc rather than having to adapt to something that was only just a little something less than ideal, too wide, too tall, a shade off, wish it came in blue...yada yada

Believe it or not, tight tolerances really aren't that important in most builds, that is unless you're building something with finished wood, to look like furniture. All you really need is to get the ends to meet roughly so you can seal it up. With MDF, hell you can use Liquid Nails on the inside and bondo on the outside and sand it, then use wood veneer or paint, or truck bed liner, whatever. Some of the projects that turned out the best were done with a (sometimes borrowed) circular saw and jig saw.

In fact, most of the home stores will cut sheets of whatever you want to use to any sizes you want for free! Just take it all home and assemble!

Man, you are one lucky camper to have a woodshop in the works.
My wife is actually the wood worker :) , her grandfather , friends and a lot of OJT rehabbing houses taught her well. We have a lot of tools now from her grandfather, her step-father, and my brother...now all departed, GRTS. SOON, THEY WILL ALL BE IN ONE PLACE MY TWO CAR GARAGE! I am forgoing the priveledge of parking my car in it any longer (wife will still get hers in) so that I can get all my used a/v gear, a test bench, and the tools all nicely laid out with enough space for a large tablesaw and extra sawhorses ....and I hope , perhaps, an pair of AL VOTs FOR INSANE GARAGE AND OUTDOOR VOLUME LEVELS!!!!!
Hopefully, I'll hand her the cabinet plans and a beer and say "need anything else dear?"
I may just keep an SC-1250 in the garage to play with as a happy medium for various subs....it's possible though that this gets pushed back a couple of months.

My wife is actually the wood worker :).

Holy cow, that is even better yet! Even luckier...:)

I don't even think mine knows we have a garage.:D

Or maybe I am the lucky one.;)

In case anyone is interested or even remotely considering DIY:

Here is my build thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=816576)

My config is the 100L sealed variety that Illka tested. I made my cabinet in a couple of afternoons with my friend's help. I was just going to just go with MDF and bedliner (similiar finish to the SVS Ultra/2 I had just sold) but he convinced me to go with Oak plywood. I painted the Oak black to match the rest of my system. My build was an alternative to buying a DD-18 or JL113. As you can see by the updates to the first post, it continues to evolve as I learn and experiment, the fun keeps on coming... If I can do it, trust me anyone can! Time and money are the real constraints.

Here is a link to Jai's build thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=860957)

He sold his twin JL113s to go DIY. He obviously had a bigger starting budget. His setup is the 200L PR design that Illka tested. He didn't realize that one was more than he needed, so he built two.;) Jai had his cabinets professionally made.

-We are both using the same amp, different EQs.

There are some other projects using the LMS as well.

I don't want to hijack this thread or get way off track.

So, sorry if this offends anyone.:o
Just some food for thought or maybe inspiration if someone is considering a project. :)
We all have to start somewhere/sometime.

Joe, why don't you post a few others as well....*hint* *hint* ;)

Joe, why don't you post a few others as well....*hint* *hint* ;)

:D Well, I don't want to ruffle any more feathers than I probably already did. :o I certainly don't want to get into the whole DIY vs commercial debate. I just want to provide info and let the members make up their own minds.:)

Since we were on the subject of the LMS tests...

I will leave you to post links to your project, and a fine one at that.;)

.

Are there any good pictures of the A7-900?

No, they're all ugly ... :D

Does anyone know how dual A5-350s would compare to a single A7-700 at frequencies below 20hz?

Does anyone know how dual A5-350s would compare to a single A7-700 at frequencies below 20hz?

I was told that the 700 is tuned lower than the 350. So I would assume that the 700 would still best two 350's.

No, they're all ugly ... :D

LOL :D

:D Well, I don't want to ruffle any more feathers than I probably already did. :o I certainly don't want to get into the whole DIY vs commercial debate. I just want to provide info and let the members make up their own minds.:)

Since we were on the subject of the LMS tests...

I will leave you to post links to your project, and a fine one at that.;)

.
http://smiliesftw.com/x/hsughwerdv7.gif

this topic usually gets out of hand quick, so no need to touch it up here.

Craig and All

I am now finding myself frozen by indecision. Too many good choises. My question is that in a room that is 16x15x10 am I really going to benefit from the probable greater output of A7-700 or Conquest over the PB13 at reasonable listening levels? If I stick with the decision to buy the ultra will I be giving up any extra kick in the chest or realism in a battle scene. The A7-900 actually slightly outscored the SVS on music so I would expect the A7-700 to be close. Or is the biggest difference between the somewhat reasonably sized SVS and the giants going to be something that you would need a room of greater cubic footage (like my great room with 20' ceiling) to realize. I like bass but have no desire to crack the drywall as a friend of mine did with his Danley.:( I can fit any of the three in a corner of the room but would I possibly be putting an elephant in the corner for no good reason if I chose one the the larger two?

Tom

Tom, generally I'd say go with the biggest sub you can handle, but in that smallish room, the PB13 will kick ass.

http://smiliesftw.com/x/hsughwerdv7.gif

this topic usually gets out of hand quick, so no need to touch it up here.

You got that right!:D

Tom, generally I'd say go with the biggest sub you can handle, but in that smallish room, the PB13 will kick ass.

Kick ass. I like that kind of talk.

Tom

tobester,
If you can afford any of them just get the ED, if it fits then what is the problem. No such thing as too much overhead.

Would I be more likely to need room correction electronics with the ED since it is less tweakable than the SVS? The SVS has equalization, room sizeing and frequency tuning.

Hi Craig,

I was expecting this beast to do well. Thanks for posting your impressions!
I'm curious, I live in a small house, my HT/Music is one system, in an single room that's about 1200 cu/ft (though opens up via open wide doorway to identical room of 1200cu/ft...so it's more like 2400sq/ft. But how do I decide what size sub for smaller rooms, without overloading, but with enough sub/driver extension to say, give me the performance of this A7-900 sub?

I just keep reading about bigger and better subs from you guys living in huge houses (= > 2000sq/ft for me living in this whopping 1000sq/ft house LOL) that rocks the house, and I have no idea how to exptrapolate this info to us living in smaller rooms/houses.

Thanks again for all the testing.

Fore
Extension does play a part in music reproduction - I mentioned it in the pas in regards to the Fathom 113 to the Ultra, that they were pretty much a match above 25 Hz ... and the eD subwoofer does the same. Above 25 Hz, all three subs are hard to impossible to tell apart under blind testing.

Below 25 Hz, the A7-900 just dominates - nothing seems to get in its way.

Tough question about the "what if", should SVS develop a PB18-Ultra/2. I think SVS has a winner on its hands, which can be put into most rooms.

I don't allow for the "WAF" ratings in the tests done here, but I can tell you not too many (being politically incorrect) wives will tolerate a 435 pound monolith finished in rough black paint into the house.

Finally ... The Fathom Driver in a larger, ported sub ... THAT would be interesting.

It seems alot of people use external EQ with their subs anyway. But if you need those features then the SVS would be your pick. I think you will reach reference levels(if that matters to you) with any of the subs you mentioned. This depends upon your room. With my room 21x 16 x 7 it was harder to reach high spl numbers then a much bigger room I used to have(4200cuft). This has to do with room accoustics and placement(for me). I have always felt that the easier the sub(or speakers for that matter) work, then the less distortion and more reliable a component becomes. If you had the big subs it would work alot easier to reach any level then the ultra, but I am sure that the ultra would do just fine. This is coming from a guy who has 6 18 inch woofers in his theater.

Are there any good pictures of the A7-900?

this isn't of an a7-9 but this is a good picture of they're finish

http://www.icixsound.com/vb/icixnation/images/38_1782.jpg

more pics here

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?t=1&products_id=606

Gents, I posted this about 4 hours ago on the Speaker side:

Guys ... I just got off the phone with my Dad. He and my mother left for Alaska on Sunday to help my younger sister with some health issues.

She had her gall bladder removed 2 weeks ago, and now her liver is failing. They don't expect her to be able to leave the hospital.

I am off to be with my wife, this is an absolute shock.

Four hours later, no news, which is hope.

I won't be around for a while, please be nice to each other.

Craig, I wish you and your family the best. I will say some prayers for your sister.

It sure puts the importance (lack of) subwoofers into perspective. It is all pointless without good health.

Hang in there.

Be well Craig, all the best to you and your family.

Amen to the above. Hope things can work out for the best. We will still be around when you can get back. Take care.

Gents, I posted this about 4 hours ago on the Speaker side:



Four hours later, no news, which is hope.

I won't be around for a while, please be nice to each other.

be well craig, my prayers are with you and your family

It seems alot of people use external EQ with their subs anyway. But if you need those features then the SVS would be your pick. I think you will reach reference levels(if that matters to you) with any of the subs you mentioned. This depends upon your room. With my room 21x 16 x 7 it was harder to reach high spl numbers then a much bigger room I used to have(4200cuft). This has to do with room accoustics and placement(for me). I have always felt that the easier the sub(or speakers for that matter) work, then the less distortion and more reliable a component becomes. If you had the big subs it would work alot easier to reach any level then the ultra, but I am sure that the ultra would do just fine. This is coming from a guy who has 6 18 inch woofers in his theater.

I appreciate your thought on the matter. I am still torn. At any rate I probably will eventually get around to replacing the two 12" subs I have in the great room with one of those monsters. The wife is a lot more sinsitive about what goes in that room and how it looks though. I just need to convince her an a7-700 or 900 would make a good looking sofa table. It is going to be a hard sell.

Tom

6 18" woofers? Do you find yourself saying "huh" or "come again" a lot in conversation?

Actually, no. Dialogue from movies are very clear and during action scenes I can still talk to a friend next to me. Just because someone can play the subs at well above reference levels doesn't mean they will. I did not spend that much for my subs so it is not that crazy. I can hit 130 db's but I lowered it to about 120 db's. Well, maybe it is higher than that. If WAF is in effect the Ultra may be the sub. My subs are all behind my screen(not the best location) so lucky for me they can be big and ugly. I wanted to have the theater look without seeing the subs. Behind the screen is not the ideal location for spl, with the SVS PB12/plus/2 I would get 110 db's with it behind the screen. With my new subs behind the screen I get 120 db's with them turned down, the SVS was running 10 db's hot. The location is why I have so many. I could sell 2 of them and just turn it up 5 db's as that would be the same. Now that I thought of it, I might just do that and get something else like a widescreen lens.

Relax you can't lose. All these subs are great.


Craig,
I wish you and your family all the best and my prayers will be with you.

Gents, I posted this about 4 hours ago on the Speaker side:



Four hours later, no news, which is hope.

I won't be around for a while, please be nice to each other.

So sorry to hear your news....I'm sure all on this board...we wish your sister a speedy recovery.

Sorry Craig...hope you get better news soon.

Tobester...my experience with the Ultra is it's easy to place and tune without eq. I'm getting reference level flat bass, though - 10 to -5 is the max comfort zone in my slightly larger room. WAF is marginally high (still big), it's tiny compared to the ubersubs. But if you just have to scatch that itch, by all means, dare the snake eye and start lifting weights cuz eD and Epik have made remarkable statments for no holds barred performance in a box.

Gents, I posted this about 4 hours ago on the Speaker side:



Four hours later, no news, which is hope.

I won't be around for a while, please be nice to each other.

Good luck to you and your family. All the best. Please let us know.

Hello,

Our thoughts and prayers are with Craig and his family in this time of need.

I haven't been in this thread for quite some time. I can't seem to find Craig's latest point rankings for the subs. Can one of my forum friends show me where this is? I think I am getting behind in the latest and greatest. My Danley DTS20 ,JTR Growlers, F113 and the Klipsh Ultra IIs are the subs I have now which are a lot of fun, but it looks like there is better in the lower extension dept. It looks like the A7-900 might be in order or a Ultra13. I don't think IMHO the Growlers can be beat for the 100 to 40 hz dept. It amazes me how fast better products arrive in this hobby. Just my two cents.

rmlowz

Gents, I posted this about 4 hours ago on the Speaker side:



Four hours later, no news, which is hope.

I won't be around for a while, please be nice to each other.

Craig,

We'll all be thinking of you and hoping for the best for your family. The most common reason someone would have elevated liver enzymes after gallbladder surgery is if there were stones left in the "plumbing". Second most common would be if the "plumbing" got blocked by mistake by the surgeon. Can't imagine why someone would have complete liver failure related to gallbladder surgery, so I'll hope that it's just retained stones and whoever is giving you your info is a bit dramatic.

Hello,

Our thoughts and prayers are with Craig and his family in this time of need.

I haven't been in this thread for quite some time. I can't seem to find Craig's latest point rankings for the subs. Can one of my forum friends show me where this is? I think I am getting behind in the latest and greatest. My Danley DTS20 ,JTR Growlers, F113 and the Klipsh Ultra IIs are the subs I have now which are a lot of fun, but it looks like there is better in the lower extension dept. It looks like the A7-900 might be in order or a Ultra13. I don't think IMHO the Growlers can be beat for the 100 to 40 hz dept. It amazes me how fast better products arrive in this hobby. Just my two cents.

rmlowz

Rich, if you go back to Craigs last post on the previous page there is a link to his rankings. All of his posts have this link.
I have heard and seen some of your stuff and I can't muster much sympathy because you think you may be getting a bit behind.:rolleyes:When I grow up I want to have the toys you have.:D

MKtheater, actually I am the guy that says "huh" a lot. Twenty nine years of sirens (firefighter) has left me with some high pitch hearing loss. I usually like to crank the volume up a little higher than the rest of the family.
The consencus seems to be that I can't go wrong with any of these three subs. I think that is right. If it wasn't for Craig and you guys I certainly would not be aware that so much great sub performance is possible for an affordable price.:)

Godspeed a Full Recovery to your sister, Craig!

In thoughts and prayers,
Ted

Hello,

Our thoughts and prayers are with Craig and his family in this time of need.

I haven't been in this thread for quite some time. I can't seem to find Craig's latest point rankings for the subs. Can one of my forum friends show me where this is? I think I am getting behind in the latest and greatest. My Danley DTS20 ,JTR Growlers, F113 and the Klipsh Ultra IIs are the subs I have now which are a lot of fun, but it looks like there is better in the lower extension dept. It looks like the A7-900 might be in order or a Ultra13. I don't think IMHO the Growlers can be beat for the 100 to 40 hz dept. It amazes me how fast better products arrive in this hobby. Just my two cents.

rmlowz

IMHO, the HSU MBM-12 is a better way to go from 50-100Hz. For the price of 1 Growler and an amp, you can get two MBM-12s. Instead of one 12 inch driver, two MBM-12s gives you two 12 inch drivers and 700 watts (built-in).

I am sorry to hear about your sister. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family Craig.

Craig,

We'll all be thinking of you and hoping for the best for your family. The most common reason someone would have elevated liver enzymes after gallbladder surgery is if there were stones left in the "plumbing". Second most common would be if the "plumbing" got blocked by mistake by the surgeon. Can't imagine why someone would have complete liver failure related to gallbladder surgery, so I'll hope that it's just retained stones and whoever is giving you your info is a bit dramatic.

Craig,

As a physician, I agree completely with the above quote; a retained stone after the gallbladder is removed is far and away the most common reason for liver function changes shortly after gallbladder surgery. It is a relatively simple procedure to clear that blockage and, if needed, place a tube in the duct to keep it clear for a while as the liver heals. If your sister has an underlying liver problem or if a leak occurred at the surgical site, then the complications can be more severe. In any case, I hope that you have a good surgeon and gastroenterologist looking after her. God bless your sister and your family.

Hello,

Thanks Tobester for the kind words and the info for the link. You know me, I am always looking for that one last bit of lower frequency. I am listening at a more sane level and try not to do the crazy demos for friends anymore. I repaired and painted the sheetrock cracks in my theater room. Maybe I am getting ready for the next new sub. To spyboy, if you live in the area I invite you to come listen to the Growlers you may change your opinion. I understand everybody has budgets. I don't want to sound ungrateful. For me it is trying to find the best. Although I have my limits on what I think a sub is worth verses how much the performance a new sub would be compared to what I already have. I have bought some subs in the past and it went in the downgrade dept.

Hello,

Thanks Tobester for the kind words and the info for the link. You know me, I am always looking for that one last bit of lower frequency. I am listening at a more insane level and try not to do the crazy demos for friends. I repaired and painted the sheetrock cracks in my theater room. Maybe I am getting ready for the next new sub. To spyboy, if you live in the area I invite you to come listen to the Growlers you may change your opinion. I understand everybody has budgets. I don't want to sound ungrateful. For me it is trying to find the best. Although I have my limits on what I think a sub is worth verses how much the performance a new sub would be compared to what I already have. I have bought some subs in the past and it went in the downgrade dept.

Thank you for the invitation, however, I live about 1,500 miles from Texas. As a current owner of two HSU VTF-3HO's plus Turbos, I can get the HSU MBM-12 for no more than $479 delivered, and if they happened to have a B-Stock MBM-12, it would be $380 delivered.

My needs are very simple, I simply like the best of everything. I considered buying two Velodyne DD-18s, however for $1,848, I bought two brand new HSU VTF-3HO's plus Turbos. If I want to upgrade my subwoofers, the MBM-12 is as much as I need.

I do not want to spend $6,000 for subwoofers. I would much rather spend the money on a bigger display. Even though I have a 65 inch 1080i display, if I was going to spend more than the cost of the MBM-12, I would spend it on a bigger 1080P display. Unfortunately, at this time a front projector is simply not a good idea.

Hello,

Our thoughts and prayers are with Craig and his family in this time of need.

I haven't been in this thread for quite some time. I can't seem to find Craig's latest point rankings for the subs. Can one of my forum friends show me where this is? I think I am getting behind in the latest and greatest. My Danley DTS20 ,JTR Growlers, F113 and the Klipsh Ultra IIs are the subs I have now which are a lot of fun, but it looks like there is better in the lower extension dept. It looks like the A7-900 might be in order or a Ultra13. I don't think IMHO the Growlers can be beat for the 100 to 40 hz dept. It amazes me how fast better products arrive in this hobby. Just my two cents.

rmlowz

Hello,

Thanks Tobester for the kind words and the info for the link. You know me, I am always looking for that one last bit of lower frequency. I am listening at a more insane level and try not to do the crazy demos for friends. I repaired and painted the sheetrock cracks in my theater room. Maybe I am getting ready for the next new sub. To spyboy, if you live in the area I invite you to come listen to the Growlers you may change your opinion. I understand everybody has budgets. I don't want to sound ungrateful. For me it is trying to find the best. Although I have my limits on what I think a sub is worth verses how much the performance a new sub would be compared to what I already have. I have bought some subs in the past and it went in the downgrade dept.

In my opinion, the SQ of the 13Ultra is close to as good as it gets, but judging by what you already have and what you seem to be looking for, go for the biggest, baddest sub you can get. That would seem to be the ED. I think it's possible for the Ultra to do what the ED does, but it might take a few of them.

In my opinion, the SQ of the 13Ultra is close to as good as it gets, but judging by what you already have and what you seem to be looking for, go for the biggest, baddest sub you can get.
Having heard it against a couple of others, I would disagree, but I am particular about musical bass, and in fairness, I am going to try it out again in a room I am more familiar with, on an SMS-1, AND I'LL SPEND MORE TIME WITH POSITIONING.
I am curious about the 900 and the Conquest too, but don't have access to those, nor the money to buy both at the present time.

These are all very good tests and the whole process has been quite entertaining to watch. I do have a slight concern. It seems as though with these rankings (especially music), too much emphasis and therefore scoring has been given to very high SPL. I can say with nearly 100% certainty that the Ov.2 woofer doesnt match the natural musicality of the JL, Velodyne or SVS woofer (I have or do own all). It is quite a capable loudspeaker, no question there, but to exceed the F113 and the Servo controlled DD-18 in music performace by a margin 3 points is misleading in my opinion. Besting another product because it will play further past the point of hearing damage seems like the musicality point is being lost. Just my 2 cents.

These are all very good tests and the whole process has been quite entertaining to watch. I do have a slight concern. It seems as though with these rankings (especially music), too much emphasis and therefore scoring has been given to very high SPL. I can say with nearly 100% certainty that the Ov.2 woofer doesnt match the natural musicality of the JL, Velodyne or SVS woofer (I have or do own all). It is quite a capable loudspeaker, no question there, but to exceed the F113 and the Servo controlled DD-18 in music performace by a margin 3 points is misleading in my opinion. Besting another product because it will play further past the point of hearing damage seems like the musicality point is being lost. Just my 2 cents.

Those are points well taken. It is a possiblity, however, that the big ED ranked so high musically because at the levels it and the others were called upon to play, it was working at such a small fraction of it's overall capability. Two big 18" drivers can put out normal to loud listening levels with such ease as to exhibit virtually no strain or compression, and hence insignificant amounts of distortion. The fact that they are overkill and have so much headroom could add to their sense of effortless musicality. Just speculating here.

These are all very good tests and the whole process has been quite entertaining to watch. I do have a slight concern. It seems as though with these rankings (especially music), too much emphasis and therefore scoring has been given to very high SPL. I can say with nearly 100% certainty that the Ov.2 woofer doesnt match the natural musicality of the JL, Velodyne or SVS woofer (I have or do own all). It is quite a capable loudspeaker, no question there, but to exceed the F113 and the Servo controlled DD-18 in music performace by a margin 3 points is misleading in my opinion. Besting another product because it will play further past the point of hearing damage seems like the musicality point is being lost. Just my 2 cents.

When we do the music tests, it is level matched and done blind.

How you took that and turned it into what you did here is a mystery.

The music scores are not about SPL. They are about delivering music accurately.

:rolleyes:

Gents ... I just stopped in to post an update about my sister, and saw the response from Sidewayz ...

My sister is now in critical condition, and I am flying to Alaska in the morning.

I can only hope for the best, and will be back eventually.