Craig, best to you and yours.

hope everything turns out ok craig.

I dont doubt the testing methods, I simply have found a different result with my own, independent listening. That, in the end, is one of the beauties of Audio..............listening preference is 100% subjective. No :rolleyes: needed. All the best on your trip Craig.

I dont doubt the testing methods, I simply have found a different result with my own, independent listening. That, in the end, is one of the beauties of Audio..............listening preference is 100% subjective. No :rolleyes: needed. All the best on your trip Craig.

When something says something as obnoxious as what you did, a good eye roll is required. You did not merely post a different result. You had to smear how the testing is done here.

I will make you a deal, come to my place, and listen to a properly EQ'ed and calibrated A7-900 in a blind test with a properly EQ'ed and calibrated Fathom, DD-18 ... etc ...

Let' see what you pick under blind conditions.

In the meantime, let's not make any more posts about how I ... what were your words ?

Besting another product because it will play further past the point of hearing damage seems like the musicality point is being lost.

Do you think you can manage this ? :rolleyes:

When you get the chance, why not post some pics of the A7-900 you tested, too. ;)

Craig,

I'll be praying for your sister.

Craig,

I'll be praying for your sister.

Same here Craig!

craig, sorry for what you are going through, in more ways than one.

best wishes and hope to your whole family.

:) Thanks guys ... Bags are packed, and I am up at 5 AM to take off ... It is gratifying to have so many people pray for someone they have never met ... VERY cool ...

I just hope she can pull through ... if you guys knew this girl. :(

Same here Craig!third

Its always difficult when a close family member is in critical condition. :( Best wishes for her speedy recovery.

:) Thanks guys ... Bags are packed, and I am up at 5 AM to take off ... It is gratifying to have so many people pray for someone they have never met ... VERY cool ...

I just hope she can pull through ... if you guys knew this girl. :(

One more prayer here Craig. Paul

I think this is why forums like this are called online comunities. Friends who have never met. Godspeed Craig.

My prayers are with you and your sister Craig.

mine also

with the A7-900 standing up vertical (drivers facing forward), where is the port? would it be shooting straight up toward the ceiling ?

You've 'been there' for us many times, Craig -- our thoughts and prayers are with you and your entire family.

with the A7-900 standing up vertical (drivers facing forward), where is the port? would it be shooting straight up toward the ceiling ?

That is correct. Not unlike SVS cylinders.

with the A7-900 standing up vertical (drivers facing forward), where is the port? would it be shooting straight up toward the ceiling ?

Picture is worth a thousand words.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/logos/larger_17900.gif

Bradley

P.S. Let me know when you're ready to unload that extra pair of BP30s! ;)

Picture is worth a thousand words.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/logos/larger_17900.gif

Bradley

P.S. Let me know when you're ready to unload that extra pair of BP30s! ;)

oh thanks. i saw that pic before but never saw the port till i turned up the brightness on my monitor

thanks :o

just saw that about the bp-30s

i'm holding on to those babies :D

Craig,
I just realized about your sister's health. I am so sorry. I will be praying for her recovery.
Please take care.
-Jai

Craig,
best wishes for your sister and family, and a safe journey for you.

Is it better to stack your subs and what is the benfit when doing this? Can someone help me.

Stacking or closely co-locating two subs will give you a 6 dB gain in max SPL, compared with a 3-4 dB gain (the closer the louder) gain from separating them.

Stacking is a good idea if:

You are trying to stretch limited sub resources to power a large volume.
You are trying to use two non-matching subs in the same room
Your room is not very symmetrical (e.g. you have one good corner).

"One on each side" is a good idea if:

You have enough "subbage" to concentrate on sound quality.
You have identical subs.
Your room is more or less symmetrical.

These are not hard and fast rules, just general guidelines.

If you can, try both stacking and one-on-each-side in your room and see which one you like best :)

Stacking or closely co-locating two subs will give you a 6 dB gain in max SPL, compared with a 3-4 dB gain (the closer the louder) gain from separating them.

Stacking is a good idea if:

You are trying to stretch limited sub resources to power a large volume.
You are trying to use two non-matching subs in the same room
Your room is not very symmetrical (e.g. you have one good corner).

"One on each side" is a good idea if:

You have enough "subbage" to concentrate on sound quality.
You have identical subs.
Your room is more or less symmetrical.

These are not hard and fast rules, just general guidelines.

If you can, try both stacking and one-on-each-side in your room and see which one you like best :)

Thank you for the detailed explaination. That is very helpful.

Thoughts and prayers here as well Craig.

Our thoughts are with you and your family Craig.

My thoughts and prayers are with you, your sister, and family.

anyone think the conquest will be in the same league as the A7-900 ?

not sure how it could be? dual 18's versus one 18, bigger cabinet, etc.

on a side note, the Epik website really isn't that nice. It would be nice if they included the specs on the sub in the spec tab rather than the review section. someone needs to explain to them how to design a web page.

jongaro, although i mostly agree with you (about the website), i'm pretty sure chad has a good reason he hasn't posted detailed specs yet. And its not because he's afraid it will deter customers.

hint..Think eD and long waits.

Also, I can't say for sure whether the conquest will be in the same league as the ed a7-900 because I have not heard one myself (referring to the eD). However, i bet it holds its own given its has half the drivers and a little more than half the weight (and probably several weeks less wait). Hopefully craig will get one soon and can test it.(btw god bless your sister and hope everything goes well).

If you want to know a bit more details about the conquest I suggest you give chad a call. The website definitely needs some updating, hopefully it will be done soon as chad gets caught up with orders...

Also, I can't say for sure whether the conquest will be in the same league as the ed a7-900 because I have not heard one myself (referring to the eD). However, i bet it holds its own given its has half the drivers and a little more than half the weight (and probably several weeks less wait). Hopefully craig will get one soon and can test it.(btw god bless your sister and hope everything goes well).
Even though both are large.... finish and size vs orientation might still also prove to be issues as well.

just noticed that Craig made El. D's blog this week!

Sorry news Chad. My thoughts as well for you, your sister and family.
Good Luck!

craig
I wish your family all the best and my prayers for your sister, I hope she get better.

my prayers are with you and your family....

I would like to add to the wishes towards your sisters health, it's great to see such mass support for such a valued forum member.

And to the list, any chances of adding the Seaton Sound Submerssive 1 to the testing? I would really like to see how this sub competes, as really, I'd be interested in the Submerssie 2 down the line.

Superman,

Seems that the specs of the Submersive 2 was enough different from the Submersive 1 that you really wouldn't be able to draw conclusions about one from the other.

one more prayer here

Although I don't own a ED sub, I'm not sure why there is a difference between a Epik catching up on orders and ED having a long wait. A long wait is would be the freaking long ass time that av123 has taken to get the bmf to market. still waiting.

ED has, worst case, a month to build and ship a built to order sub such as the a7-900.

the whole idea of a website is to provide all the information to the customer so that you don't have to call. otherwise why have a website? The Epik site is a great example of using descriptive words without backing that statement with concrete information. For example, the Epik sub has extreme excursion. what the hell does that mean? None of the subs have a frequency response, in room testing, etc. How do you purchase a sub from a company that doesn't list that information? Yes, I saw the review from Tom, but I don't feel it makes up for the lack of information.

Well for whatever reasons I don't think chad is quite ready to post detailed specs on his website.. Perhaps that or he just doesnt have the time.
Its a good things epik subwoofers is all about subwoofers and not in the web development industry. Believe me, they do subwoofers a lot better than they do websites. I can attest to that (believe it or not i'm a web developer).... Not that is bad looking its just not very informative as jongaro brought up..
And i feel your pain, its just that I know these subs won't disappoint... at least not the conquest. Its an amazing sub. Earlier i was playing some bass cd and was getting a constant 117db from over 3 meters away.. I'm not sure exactly what the frequency, probably in the low 40's.. I also had plenty of room to turn it up, it was just pretty cool listening to 117db without it even flinching (not in max mode). I've also hit 125db on a few songs in max mode on my radioshack meter.

i guess i have issue with purchasing a product that is so vague on information. Until late this year, i had never heard of Epik. Maybe the owner should take some time to post specs on what he is selling as he apparently has enough time to fake prices to throw the competition off.

I told craigsub in his Rocket/Swan thread in the speaker sub-forum that I'll pray for his sister. I'll mention it here as well, thinking that maybe it'll count as a double prayer. Good luck, cs!

Maybe the owner should take some time to post specs on what he is selling as he apparently has enough time to fake prices to throw the competition off.That's a little harsh...I can't see a competitor adjusting their pricing based on a new product launch. Much more likely, Epik, as stated, always intended to sell at these prices to build some momentum or re-evaluated their model. The website is fine...these guys are working 150 hour weeks to stay caught up. Order a sub based on word or mouth or wait 3-6 months for them to catch their breath.

it wasn't intended to be harsh. it was mentioned on their blog. So it is known, I am not saying Epik makes a bad sub or that they are a bad company. I am just saying that their website could be much more informative. Word of mouth advertising might be fine if you knew who was really hyping a product. Being that it is on the internet, you can't fairly evaluate what some random person is saying about a particular product. So why would someone drop $1500 on a product that has no specs and is simply being hyped by random people on the internet?

but then again, this tactic did work for SVS. Hopefully Epik isn't shady like SVS has been.

also, wouldn't you want to show respect to your potential clients by posting relevant information on how the sub perform? Or is hype enough to sell something these days?

So why would someone drop $1500 on a product that has no specs and is simply being hyped by random people on the internet?

Interesting, that you picked the Conquest for that question. I didn't realize Tom Nousaine's measurements (http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/blog/?p=17) were hype and that his reviewing persona is considered random. [pdf] (http://epiksubwoofers.com/C2.pdf)

Epik would get more criticism from putting the numbers by not using a third party than posting their own numbers like you suggest.

I wish more companies would have their offerings tested by a third party.

SVS is not shady, never has been. Neither is Epik, or eD. These companies are internet direct- they use the internet to help sell their products. Word of mouth is how it works. They don't take ads out in major magazines. This isn't shady at all and I think any internet company would take offense to that statement.

Having said that- YES, it would be great to have a better website, but the company is extremely new as others have stated. I hadn't heard of them either prior to 4 weeks ago, but here I am with a brand new $1600 sub from Epik. You can choose what and who you want to believe, but it sounds like you've already made up your mind to me. I based my decision on published info (the Nousaine specs. helped quite a bit) and several conversations with Chad (the owner) on the phone where I asked very specific questions and he gave me specific answers. This was enough for me to take a leap of faith (and it definitely was a leap of faith).

-Dennis

did craig ever get his 2 SubMersives ?

looks like he asked about them here but i can't seem to find a reply to the post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=9586741&postcount=280

SVS is not shady, never has been. Neither is Epik, or eD. These companies are internet direct- they use the internet to help sell their products. Word of mouth is how it works. They don't take ads out in major magazines. This isn't shady at all and I think any internet company would take offense to that statement.

Having said that- YES, it would be great to have a better website, but the company is extremely new as others have stated. I hadn't heard of them either prior to 4 weeks ago, but here I am with a brand new $1600 sub from Epik. You can choose what and who you want to believe, but it sounds like you've already made up your mind to me. I based my decision on published info (the Nousaine specs. helped quite a bit) and several conversations with Chad (the owner) on the phone where I asked very specific questions and he gave me specific answers. This was enough for me to take a leap of faith (and it definitely was a leap of faith).

-Dennis

Hi Dennis

I know you got a hell of a subwoofer. You received enough information to make a great choice. I also wanted to mention that both HSU and SVS have had half-page ads in Sound&Vision magazine for perhaps a year now.

I would love to hear more about your experiences with your Epik Conquest. You are completely correct about Tom Nousaine, and Chad.

did craig ever get his 2 SubMersives ?

looks like he asked about them here but i can't seem to find a reply to the post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=9586741&postcount=280

I have not spoken to Craig lately, however he certainly has his Dodge Viper and his Vette.

but then again, this tactic did work for SVS. Hopefully Epik isn't shady like SVS has been.


I've had my SVS sub for 5 years. I think if they were shady, they wouldn't still be held in high regard.

dd

Hi Dennis

I know you got a hell of a subwoofer. You received enough information to make a great choice. I also wanted to mention that both HSU and SVS have had half-page ads in Sound&Vision magazine for perhaps a year now.

I would love to hear more about your experiences with your Epik Conquest. You are completely correct about Tom Nousaine, and Chad.

i remember seeing those little ads for HSU in the back of stereo review like 100 years ago :D

that was way before the internet. those cylinder subs always looked cool to me

Hopefully Epik isn't shady like SVS has been. Simply amazing...:rolleyes:

I've had my SVS sub for 5 years. I think if they were shady, they wouldn't still be held in high regard.

dd

they do have a protective following

can you imagine if it was the def tech subs that had all those dying amps in their new flagship sub?

OMG, you would never hear the end of it :p

So why would someone drop $1500 on a product that has no specs and is simply being hyped by random people on the internet?

basically for the following LOGICAL reasons:

1. because There are measurements done by Tom Noussaine, which gives anyone a pretty good hint of the performance of the conquest. Compare it with the myriad of subwoofers Tom has measured over the years, including some heavy hitters.
2. because Chad Kuypers has been one the premier subwoofer driver designers in the past several years, and thus, another pretty good idea on how his products will go (if his ascendant drivers were any indication)
3. because a long throw, high excursion, high power, 18" driver (that weighs more than 70lbs), in a very large ported enclosure, with dual 6" flared ports, is a pretty darn good indication that this ain't your average dad's sub... it will go DEEP, it will go loud, and it will go strong.
4. because when a subwoofer can produce 104 dB at 12 hz with 4% THD, again, is a pretty darn good indication that it is more than hype.

:rolleyes:


This is a startup company, a one-man operation. Sure, the website has LOTS of work ahead of it, but when the man gets enough time to sleep for more than 4 hours a day while working non-stop for 16-18, I'm sure it will be updated.

Same goes for many other outstanding subwoofers out there....including Mark Seaton's Offerings. Do you think people are buying Seaton's stuff on "hype"? do you think people are skeptical because of his lack of website?

they do have a protective following

can you imagine if it was the def tech subs that had all those dying amps in their new flagship sub?

OMG, you would never hear the end of it :p

Agreed on the protective following. They also pay for advertising in almost every forum out there and at Audioholics there was some manipulation going on in the background.

Just b/c some of their tactics are shady does not mean they have a bad product or bad customer service. I am happy to see new companies raising the bar.

Lest we forget, these companies are very new. Websites are overrated. I understand the critical nature of comparing companies' websites and specs therein to determine which product is better
must come natural to the new breed of members.

It's probably just me, but forum spin destroying relevant feedback makes me sick.

Thanks Spyboy. :) I didn't realize that Hsu ran ads in magazines- I stand corrected. I guess it makes sense since they've been around a lot longer than SVS, etc. I still don't like the idea of calling internet companies "shady". If they make a quality product, which SVS does, then that's uncalled for- what counts is the products they are selling. I can say with certainty that Epik makes a quality product since I own their sub, and I've only heard good things about Hsu and recently eD.

-Dennis

Thanks Spyboy. :) I didn't realize that Hsu ran ads in magazines- I stand corrected. I guess it makes sense since they've been around a lot longer than SVS, etc. I still don't like the idea of calling internet companies "shady". If they make a quality product, which SVS does, then that's uncalled for- what counts is the products they are selling. I can say with certainty that Epik makes a quality product since I own their sub, and I've only heard good things about Hsu and recently eD.

-Dennis

SVS also runs adds.

The thing is, I wish that more adds were ran or more ID companies products were tested in magazines so people were educated and could buy high quality products at a fraction of the price of these main stream companies.

I don't know why anyone would call internet companies shady, that is just an ignorant comment. Internet companies have brought higher end products to the masses at a price that normal people can afford.
I know for myself, I will NEVER buy another speaker from any b&m store. The level of performance you get compared to the dollar spent blows away anything you can by at your local B&M store. Try walking into Ulitimate Electronics and buying a set of tower speakers that perform and look as good as the Rocket Signature RS-850's I just bought last Friday for $979. I don't think so. :)

Dennis, SVS is/was known for a couple things, great subs, AND shady business practice, at least in the past

as far as the decision to "fake out" competitors, that strikes me more as just silly/pointless than shady

I'd like to hear more details about that shady business practice. Could you elaborate?

Dennis, SVS is/was known for a couple things, great subs, AND shady business practice, at least in the past

I'm torn between letting this continue or die...ok, hooked...please be specific. There are those out there who don't like their style, their prose, even complain that they aren't as good as the hype...that's fine...but shady business practices, wtf ??? I know there are haters out there, as well as, lovers, but that yanks my chain. Statments about companies business practices that aren't true tread on libel laws...ask Audioholics.

I've received terrific service from SVS, and have purchased multiple products from them over the last decade.

They've been professional in every circumstance, and, have been amazing helpful in answering my many questions via email and phone.

Boy, can I just say that you guys run with **** a little too easy and infer way too much.

Regarding Epik. I don't think they are shady, or anything bad for that matter. My comment is that how do you buy a product that doesn't list any specs? Only in this industry do we jump on a product without knowing anything about it. If Chad, I'll assume that is his name by what others have said, states that the sub is a super duper high excursion sub... well, then say by how much. His products say almost nothing more than the picture. If he has time to have the website done and answer the phone, then you'd think he could post some info.

As far as the price thing. Chad stated he overinflated the prices to throw off the competition. I wasn't making that up. Again, if the dude has time to blog, he has time to provide potential customers information about his product.

Please note, I am simply using Epik as a example. I am not implying the product is bad or anything at all other than the fact that there is a lack of info on the website. If the dude has time to answer all the dumb questions we all tend to ask, then he isn't using his time wisely.

As far as Tom N. Don't know him and wasn't talking bad about him. I think it is great he did testing on the conquest.

And for the record I am not calling all internet companies shady. Just SVS. Not necessarily because of the product they put out or the quality of the customer service but because they are shady in how the have manipulated forums, taken advantage of other subwoofer companies in their early beginnings, etc.

I like how Ron Temple uses threats. Didn't you pull that **** on Craigsub back in the day? :) Were you honest and forthcoming with Dr. HSU when you were first starting your business? Has your company been respectful on various forums or have you and your employees skewed things for better press or to sway others to buy your products.

So Ron, are you implying you sued Audioholics and won?

Ask yourself this, why is it that SVS always seems to come up in regards to shady business practices? I'm sure others have been accused, but whose name repeatedly comes up? SVS of course. And being a shady company doesn't mean that you don't provide good customer service, I have never said that.

As for how I got my information. I happened to ask someone who works for one of the mainstream audio companies and has been in the industry for over 25 years. This was back when there was the whole SVS vs HSU issue. I happened to ask, because I could, and got the skinny. This has been confirmed over the years from various sources. Ultimately, I vote with my pocketbook and would never buy SVS regardless of the product they put out. I'd rather take a chance on Seaton, ED, Epik, HSU, or whoever else. Those companies haven't established themselves as less than honorable companies.

You don't have to believe me... google SVS and you'll find old posts and what not of the **** SVS pulled and obviously still pulls.

You gonna sue me Ron? :)

'Shady'......LAUGHABLE FLAME BAIT...nothing more, nothing less.....

Maybe you guys can start another thread or take this whole "shady" discussion offline before the mods have to step in? Just a thought.

'Shady'......LAUGHABLE FLAME BAIT...nothing more, nothing less.....


spoken like a true SVS owner. :) whatever it takes to make you feel better at night. is that avatar pic you?

troll, troll, troll your boat......gently down the stream

Boy, can I just say that you guys run with **** a little too easy and infer way too much.

Regarding Epik. I don't think they are shady, or anything bad for that matter. My comment is that how do you buy a product that doesn't list any specs? Only in this industry do we jump on a product without knowing anything about it. If Chad, I'll assume that is his name by what others have said, states that the sub is a super duper high excursion sub... well, then say by how much. His products say almost nothing more than the picture. If he has time to have the website done and answer the phone, then you'd think he could post some info.

As far as the price thing. Chad stated he overinflated the prices to throw off the competition. I wasn't making that up. Again, if the dude has time to blog, he has time to provide potential customers information about his product.

Please note, I am simply using Epik as a example. I am not implying the product is bad or anything at all other than the fact that there is a lack of info on the website. If the dude has time to answer all the dumb questions we all tend to ask, then he isn't using his time wisely.

As far as Tom N. Don't know him and wasn't talking bad about him. I think it is great he did testing on the conquest.

And for the record I am not calling all internet companies shady. Just SVS. Not necessarily because of the product they put out or the quality of the customer service but because they are shady in how the have manipulated forums, taken advantage of other subwoofer companies in their early beginnings, etc.

I like how Ron Temple uses threats. Didn't you pull that **** on Craigsub back in the day? :) Were you honest and forthcoming with Dr. HSU when you were first starting your business? Has your company been respectful on various forums or have you and your employees skewed things for better press or to sway others to buy your products.

So Ron, are you implying you sued Audioholics and won?

Ask yourself this, why is it that SVS always seems to come up in regards to shady business practices? I'm sure others have been accused, but whose name repeatedly comes up? SVS of course. And being a shady company doesn't mean that you don't provide good customer service, I have never said that.

As for how I got my information. I happened to ask someone who works for one of the mainstream audio companies and has been in the industry for over 25 years. This was back when there was the whole SVS vs HSU issue. I happened to ask, because I could, and got the skinny. This has been confirmed over the years from various sources. Ultimately, I vote with my pocketbook and would never buy SVS regardless of the product they put out. I'd rather take a chance on Seaton, ED, Epik, HSU, or whoever else. Those companies haven't established themselves as less than honorable companies.

You don't have to believe me... google SVS and you'll find old posts and what not of the **** SVS pulled and obviously still pulls.

You gonna sue me Ron? :)jongaro, I think you've got me confused with someone else, I'm just a guy, not affiliated. Any reference to libel was not an accusation, just that there's more than oneside.:confused: No threats implied to you. That being said, let's take it off this thread if you want to continue...

Word of mouth advertising might be fine if you knew who was really hyping a product. Being that it is on the internet, you can't fairly evaluate what some random person is saying about a particular product.
Absolutely fair assesment.
So why would someone drop $1500 on a product that has no specs and is simply being hyped by random people on the internet?
Because Chad has a great reputation, he has done some incredible things with drivers, and Tom Nussaine is reputable.
but then again, this tactic did work for SVS. Hopefully Epik isn't shady like SVS has been.
E-marketing is just part of the game, I'm hoping even the newbies are starting to understand that there are many agendas and that not everyone here is just a "friend".
Agreed on the protective following. They also pay for advertising in almost every forum out there and at Audioholics there was some manipulation going on in the background.
It's simply a new advertising strategy.....but maybe not so new, "unsolicited" testimonials have long been known to often be anything but.

Just b/c some of their tactics are shady does not mean they have a bad product or bad customer service.
Agreed.

I don't know why anyone would call internet companies shady, that is just an ignorant comment.
read the rest of your comment , below, with an open mind and see if it doesn't smack of ad copy and stealthy marketing and an "unpaid" testimonial....
Internet companies have brought higher end products to the masses at a price that normal people can afford.
I know for myself, I will NEVER buy another speaker from any b&m store. The level of performance you get compared to the dollar spent blows away anything you can by at your local B&M store. Try walking into Ulitimate Electronics and buying a set of tower speakers that perform and look as good as the Rocket Signature RS-850's I just bought last Friday for $979. I don't think so.
No offense, but that opinion couldn't have been better stated by the marketing division of any ID company, and is the kind of BS generalization that gives many trepidation when waltzing through the forums.

Ron Temple

I think he got confused you with Ron Stimpson, co-founder of SVS.

Ron Temple

I think he got confused you with Ron Stimpson, co-founder of SVS.That was my first assumption too ;). Doesn't change my opinion any...however, one thing...

I don't recall ever saying anything negative to Craig...not saying it's not possible :p, just don't recall. I certainly wouldn't want to sh*t on this fine thread. So hopefully, since we've spoken recently, that's all behind us ;).

I just fell under the bridge on this one...snared by a troll.

Craig, I really hope things improve.

RT

Why is it when people praise products for id companies they are involved with the company in some way? ID companies make great bang for the buck products(sometimes just great products regardless of price). Having said that I don't own any anymore, maybe in the future.

btw - How are those Triple Eights doing?

Larry

Why is it when people praise products for id companies they are involved with the company in some way? ID companies make great bang for the buck products(sometimes just great products regardless of price). Having said that I don't own any anymore, maybe in the future.

Dennis, SVS is/was known for a couple things, great subs, AND shady business practice, at least in the past

as far as the decision to "fake out" competitors, that strikes me more as just silly/pointless than shady

I'd like to hear more details about that shady business practice. Could you elaborate?

I'm still waiting.
:rolleyes:

I'm still waiting.
:rolleyes: While not agreeing with dlfromcanada's wording, I think the link below will give you an idea of the questionable behavior to which he alluded.

New SVS Ultra - Please Take it elsewhere (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842819)

It's been pretty clear about David's feelings about SVS. The fact that he continues to leave the remnant of that thread up there even though that product has actually been out for a couple of months shows that, but in two years that I've been hanging around here, I just haven't seen any shady business practices (at least not from SVS). All of this alluding going on doesn't mean squat to me. I would like to see actual examples of practicing shady business, or else it's all heresay. Everything I've personally seen has been to the contrary, so I'm still waiting...

That post does not relate to any questionable behavior, but rather this forum's position on whether to allow posts to be made about a certain company's upcoming products. The forum certainly has the right to discriminate any way they choose since since free speech rights do not apply here beacause this forum is a private enterprise.

I based my decision on published info (the Nousaine specs. helped quite a bit) and several conversations with Chad (the owner) on the phone where I asked very specific questions and he gave me specific answers. This was enough for me to take a leap of faith (and it definitely was a leap of faith).
Hey Dennis,
In your conversations with Chad, did you happen to discuss tune? I'm very interested in knowing what the Conquest is tuned to along with the rest of their line. Is it tuned a little higher like in the 22-25ish range with the ability to go lower, or is it tuned to around the 18hz mark? Having built large subs myself, size would indicate (to me) it's possibly tuned a little higher??

I've bought several subs from SVS over the years and I have never come across anything close to a shady dealing on their part. In fact, I've found them to be one ofthe best in all the areas I'm concerned with. Principal amoung them is customer service. Of course, I'm speaking from a customer's perspective only. David obviously has a different view and he has a right to his opinion......especially since it's his forum. But I personally would be hard pressed to find anything shady or 'under the table' about SVS and their specific dealings with me. I remember the thread under discussion and I also remember when it was taken down. For the life of me, I don't recall one thing 'shady' about it. It baffled me then and it still baffles me now.

I've sent some pm's already so in the interest of saving time I'll clarify a little.

SVS imo is a top notch company, great products, great service, great prices.

Some of their marketing practices have been considered shady by many people, there is also a school of thought that considers some of those aforementioned practices as smart and creative

people like mojomike take such matters way too personally, particularly when they form such strong opinions while being unaware of the history(a quick net search can remedy that btw)

By all accounts SVS has a very fine product in the PB13, at an affordable price and they have a great reputation for taking care of their customers. If they can put out a product for $1,500 that competes with or bests a DD15 and F113 then I have to consider that product. I am not going to get my panties in a wad over the truth or inuendo about their buisness practices.

I too would like to know more about the conquest. I have seen Tom N's numbers and that says a lot but not quite enough for me to make a purchase. I would like to see more on the Epik web site but more that that I want to hear from owners that have the opportunity to do direct comparrisons with some of the heavy weights discussed here. Of course, I would like to hear what Craig has to say when and if he get his hands on one. I hope those who do have one or getting one will continue to chime in as they spend some time with it.

Some feel they need to remind us that we may be marketed to on fourms like this and that's ok. I think most of us do some filtering of what we read. It is still IMHO the best source of information I have ever found on products I am interested in and how to properly use them.

No, let the guy hold his breath rather than use the search function... :D

Either way let's all try and get this thread back on topic about how impressive Epik's new offerings are and how it compares to ED and other reviewed subs. HSU and then SVS have been following the 12" standard and the new guys are saying "Screw it" we have 15" and 18" subs.

Things are getting interesting and across the gambit of size, it appears one company is not providing everything.

I think Epik will cause a lot of trouble for some DIYers who will just say forget it, send me the product.

I am really looking forward to Craigs comments on the Utlra ED and Epik and would like for Ilkka to do some testing, but he's never near as fast as Craig.

Frankly, the sound quality reviews are what I care about and not the 120 db at 20 hz reviews. 102 db at 12 hz is very interesting though and the pricing.

my subwoofer company can beat up your subwoofer company

let's all be happy and just enjoy our bass :D


ok, i have a question (i am planning on getting new subs but in the meantime)

i have more headroom from 25-80hz than i will ever use

my subs are flat down to 30 and about 14db down at 20

is there some kind of EQ i can use to even things out a little?

i don't want to boost the bottom end, but rather bring things down from 30 to 80 because my subs can peg a radioshack SPL, it just blinks at 126 from 30hz on up

i'm thinking maybe a sms-1 might help but since i'm looking at new subs anyway, i thought maybe there was some cheaper EQ i could use to hold me over

btw - How are those Triple Eights doing?

Larry

They are great. Talk about dynamics and power. Very neutral. Back to subs.

I have been using some inexpensive subs that are really good, if they weren't so heavy I would send them to Craig to see how they do. They are just about as big as the ED sub and I use 2 of them. I should just order an ultra and test it.

Anyone with a A7-900 sub can tell me if the phase control variable from 0 to 180 or just a switch toggle 0 and 180 only , thanks.

Hey Dennis,
In your conversations with Chad, did you happen to discuss tune? I'm very interested in knowing what the Conquest is tuned to along with the rest of their line. Is it tuned a little higher like in the 22-25ish range with the ability to go lower, or is it tuned to around the 18hz mark? Having built large subs myself, size would indicate (to me) it's possibly tuned a little higher??

Hi Steve,

We didn't discuss the tuning, (seeing the Nousaine test results covered my output and extension questions) I was actually more interested in the sound characteristics (ie does it play cleanly, low distortion, does it sound tight and musical, etc).

-Dennis

I think Epik will cause a lot of trouble for some DIYers who will just say forget it, send me the product.
Good point! I cant think of anything that was knocking at the temptation door except possibly the new Ultra? What I think I'm going to do is drop my SDX into my vehicle and consider another option for HT. Since I don't feel like building another sub at this time, I'm kind of feeling the call.
HSU and then SVS have been following the 12" standard and the new guys are saying "Screw it" we have 15" and 18" subs.

Although lacking in detail, (I do and don't understand) I gotta tell you I liked what I saw from the word go! It looks as though they're even planning on a sub for those of us with our own amp/s.
We didn't discuss the tuning, (seeing the Nousaine test results covered my output and extension questions) I was actually more interested in the sound characteristics (ie does it play cleanly, low distortion, does it sound tight and musical, etc).
Thanks Dennis. When I asked the question about tune, it was my roundabout way of asking your same questions to a degree.
i'm thinking maybe a sms-1 might help but since i'm looking at new subs anyway, i thought maybe there was some cheaper EQ i could use to hold me over
One option would be the BEHGINGER FBQ2496. I mention it because it's so simple to use for fairly cheap.

I think Epik will cause a lot of trouble for some DIYers who will just say forget it, send me the product.

Frankly, the sound quality reviews are what I care about and not the 120 db at 20 hz reviews. 102 db at 12 hz is very interesting though and the pricing.

How could Epik cause trouble for DIYers? I just don't get that. Saving a bunch of time (and possibly the cost of buying tools) is "trouble"? If fewer people go the DIY route, that's fine too. DIY isn't for everyone.

By the way... for the price of an Epik Conquest, I should have 114 dB @ 12 Hz with my DIY project. No trouble here! :D

I should have 114 dB @ 12 Hz with my DIY project. No trouble here! :D
BTP, not to burst your bubble, but I highly doubt you are gonna get 114hz @ 12hz from seating position, unless your room is about as small as my kitchen :D

one of my LLT's (18" avalanche, 12.4hz tune, 650+ Liters, 1000W crown K2 power, DEQ2496) don't reach that......highly doubt your RL-P18 is gonna do that. :o

BTP, not to burst your bubble, but I highly doubt you are gonna get 114hz @ 12hz from seating position, unless your room is about as small as my kitchen :D

one of my LLT's (18" avalanche, 12.4hz tune, 650+ Liters, 1000W crown K2 power, DEQ2496) don't reach that......highly doubt your RL-P18 is gonna do that. :o

I'm building two of them. 114 dB is what WinISD says for SPL with 600W per driver input (and operating right around Xmax). I have no idea about the actual in-room response.

I'm building two of them. 114 dB is what WinISD says for SPL with 600W per driver input (and operating right around Xmax). I have no idea about the actual in-room response.
I got two of them too ;)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=756408

keep in mind, what the simulations say and what you will actually get in real life usually are different. It will depend on your room size and how "leaky" it is. With two of them, you could certainly reach that, but again, it would have to be a very small room with lots of gain.

I got two of them too ;)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=756408

keep in mind, what the simulations say and what you will actually get in real life usually are different. It will depend on your room size and how "leaky" it is. With two of them, you could certainly reach that, but again, it would have to be a very small room with lots of gain.

Yep. I understand that and I'm not counting my chickens before they are hatched. ;) So I guess I was being a little flippant, because I don't know exactly how the Epik was measured and that's important to have any kind of "apples to apples" comparison. Still... if the simulation puts it at a full 12 dB higher and there's any kind of room gain, I think I'll be coming out ahead. :) I'm finding out first hand that DIY is a lot of work, though. So for most people, buying something like the Epik makes perfect sense.

I'm finding out first hand that DIY is a lot of work, though. So for most people, buying something like the Epik makes perfect sense.

Yeah it sure can be. When a guy is in the groove to build one, it can be very rewarding. If you have all the tools, amp and eq, oh and a few under your belt, it's more enjoyable in most cases. That being said, it's also nice to anticipate and open a box with a nice new sub in it;) The right product priced right is a definite temptation anyway.

Anyone with a A7-900 sub can tell me if the phase control variable from 0 to 180 or just a switch toggle 0 and 180 only , thanks.

It's a knob :)

It's a knob :)

Thanks Chris . I ask because the picture seems to me it is a switch although the spec written variable . :) By the way , how long will it take to build and ship upon order confirmation ?

Thanks Chris . I ask because the picture seems to me it is a switch although the spec written variable . :) By the way , how long will it take to build and ship upon order confirmation ?

My bad actually, I was going from memory on that one. The LT/350 and LT/550 are both a variable dial but the LT/1300 is actually a switch. Time to update the site too since I screwed that one up :(

Lead time would be 3 weeks to a month on that beast.

My bad actually, I was going from memory on that one. The LT/350 and LT/550 are both a variable dial but the LT/1300 is actually a switch. Time to update the site too since I screwed that one up :(

Lead time would be 3 weeks to a month on that beast.

So it is only 0 and 180 phase switch :o

Yep. I understand that and I'm not counting my chickens before they are hatched. So I guess I was being a little flippant, because I don't know exactly how the Epik was measured and that's important to have any kind of "apples to apples" comparison. Still... if the simulation puts it at a full 12 dB higher and there's any kind of room gain, I think I'll be coming out ahead. I'm finding out first hand that DIY is a lot of work, though. So for most people, buying something like the Epik makes perfect sense.

he said it was tested in a 7500 cubic foot room.. Which is an incredibly huge room. He said in a smaller room you could get 2-3hz more extension and 3db more output..

It's been pretty clear about David's feelings about SVS. The fact that he continues to leave the remnant of that thread up there even though that product has actually been out for a couple of months shows that, but in two years that I've been hanging around here, I just haven't seen any shady business practices (at least not from SVS). All of this alluding going on doesn't mean squat to me. I would like to see actual examples of practicing shady business, or else it's all heresay. Everything I've personally seen has been to the contrary, so I'm still waiting...

UMMMMMM DITTO

So it is only 0 and 180 phase switch :o

Isn't amp phase basically what the distance setting affects in most receivers? Switch or variable is not important right especially if you have Audyssey?

Will the SMS-1 still have issues w/ rolling off sub-20 hz info? The new software update has been discussed, but is it out and working?

How much is S/H?

UMMMMMM DITTO


Ya, there is defintiely some strangeness at play here. There was a supposed incident involving an alleged employee that was posting without authorization or knowledge of the rest of company. It was all a little shady to say the least, but there was blood in the water... It is not my forum though...so...

Isn't amp phase basically what the distance setting affects in most receivers? Switch or variable is not important right especially if you have Audyssey?

Will the SMS-1 still have issues w/ rolling off sub-20 hz info? The new software update has been discussed, but is it out and working?

How much is S/H?

Software update is not out yet.

I'm building two of them. 114 dB is what WinISD says for SPL with 600W per driver input (and operating right around Xmax). I have no idea about the actual in-room response.

I'd be weary of using WinISD to predict maximum output. WinISD can be a great tool for predicting speakers at small amplitudes, but it is a little naive concerning the non-linearities that occur with high amplitudes.

WinISD makes all of its predictions based off of T/S parameters, which are small-signal specifications and they are not always scaleable to larger power levels. You hope they don't change in order to use them as an indication of performance, but they are better used for on deciding on box size and box type.

It's also important to remember two different speakers with the exact same T/S parameters can have extremely different parameters at a given X-max. With small drivers it isn't that big of a deal since X-max isn't a big factor, but high excursion drivers are a different story. It's safe to say that frequency response changes with power output especially for lower frequencies and WinISD doesn't model the changes since it models in an 'ideal' world.

By ideal I mean WinISD assumes that a driver won't suffer from power compression and more generally assumes that a driver's response won't change as additional power is applied.

Take a look at AV Talks Tests (http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=50&rid=0&SQ=0) and Ilkka's Tests (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/6015-index-subwoofer-tests-manufacturer-model.html). You'll notice that every one of the tested drivers suffer from power compression at lower frequencies and the lower you go the greater the problem becomes. As Keith Yates puts it, "Power compression is the audio equivalent of getting shortchanged." WinISD does not give you any indication of when your design is going to get shortchanged, which makes it very hard to compare to subwoofers that are already tested.

Another important piece of WinISD that is missing is that it doesn't indicate how THD levels relate to SPL and frequency. For example, it says 114dB with how much distortion?

Further reading on high amplitude scenarios: here (http://www.klippel.de/download/Nonlin/klippel,%20Loudspeaker%20nonlinearities%20-%20causes%20and%20symptoms.pdf)

Saving a bunch of time (and possibly the cost of buying tools) is "trouble"?
Time is the one thing many cannot seem to afford, it's far more valuable to some to keep adding projects to the "to do" list....the only reason that I will do DIY projects is that they also relate directly to my job and I can recoup when I sell the stuff. This being said, up until recently, I would often give my enclosure plans to a guy who is REALLY good at cabinet fabrication and let him build, I could make more selling at work, spending the time I saved that way, than it cost me to pay him after calculating how long it would take me and multipling by my average hourly income.

Typically, the "punch in the chest" is bass on the 30-50 Hz range, where "pressurizing the room" is below 25 Hz.

The room pressure effect is often not even heard, and sometimes, it even causes a feeling of "unease" in some listeners.

Hate to disagree with the guru, but "punch in the chest" bass is going to be in the range from about 50-150Hz. For example, the kick drum has its fundamental around 63Hz. This range is where (almost) all the pro-audio subs fall and maximum slam is what they are designed for.

agreed...most hiphop bass,etc is dead on 60Hz...90% of what u hear in vehicles is around 60.

Hate to disagree with the guru, but "punch in the chest" bass is going to be in the range from about 50-150Hz. For example, the kick drum has its fundamental around 63Hz. This range is where (almost) all the pro-audio subs fall and maximum slam is what they are designed for.
A lot of Fowley effects are a bit lower ie; mass death and destruction battle scenes, but given that THESE ARE THE FREQUENCIES I THINK ARE MORE SIGNIFICANT TO A LARGER PERCENTAGE OF MEDIA , it is no surprise that spl at the somewhat higher frequencies and linearity across a wider, higher, range of freqs may be more important to some trying to get a sub that may be better suited , on balance, to more of their needs.

Hate to disagree with the guru, but "punch in the chest" bass is going to be in the range from about 50-150Hz. For example, the kick drum has its fundamental around 63Hz. This range is where (almost) all the pro-audio subs fall and maximum slam is what they are designed for.

Can we have a discussion about something without resorting to comments like "hate to disagree with the guru" ? I have never declared myself to be a "guru" :rolleyes:

Now, while I agree that most "hip hop" style music has bass in the 50 Hz and up arena, I don't listen to hip hop. And it is pretty easy to find a subwoofer that kicks in the chest @ 63 Hz.

Try that with the enchanced (synthetic) kickdrum from Steely Dan's 2AN DVD-A disc - which reaches from the mid 40's into the mid 20's, and you will understand what I mean about kicking in the chest being in the 30 to 50 Hz range.

It is a totally different "animal" than the 63 Hz kickdrum you mentioned, and it HITS you with a good subwoofer.

Hate to disagree with the guru, but "punch in the chest" bass is going to be in the range from about 50-150Hz. For example, the kick drum has its fundamental around 63Hz. This range is where (almost) all the pro-audio subs fall and maximum slam is what they are designed for.

Uh-oh LTD02, dont EVER disagree with or question the guru (even if you have no ill intentions), he apparently has tremendously thin skin. :rolleyes: Keep it up and you'll likely get an invited to his house to do a blind, level matched sub test. Then you'll know where punchy bass is for sure. :rolleyes: Got it???:rolleyes:

Uh-oh LTD02, dont EVER disagree with or question the guru (even if you have no ill intentions), he apparently has tremendously thin skin. :rolleyes: Keep it up and you'll likely get an invited to his house to do a blind, level matched sub test. Then you'll know where punchy bass is for sure. :rolleyes: Got it???:rolleyes:

Good morning, Sidewayz ... Nice to see you here. Did you ever post the pictures of your A7-900 subwoofer which you claimed could not sound as good as the Fathom or the Velodyne ? ;)

I love it. The same thing is happening when Craig rated some subs higher than the SVS.

Guys, relax and just enjoy your sub. There will always be better. Just think, Craig will now have to sell his Viper to get the new 600 HP version.

Craig,

I haven't jumped in here in a while.

I hope all is well with your sister. Really puts things into perspective about what is/isn't important. She'll be in my thoughts and prayers.

Craig,

I haven't jumped in here in a while.

I hope all is well with your sister. Really puts things into perspective about what is/isn't important. She'll be in my thoughts and prayers.


Thanks, Chris. She has improved over the most dire day, which was Friday, but still is not "out of the woods" yet. Every day is a vigil, waiting for news about the daily battery of tests. I hope to have to keep the promises I made to her in the ICU ...

Can we have a discussion about something without resorting to comments like "hate to disagree with the guru" ? I have never declared myself to be a "guru" :rolleyes:

Now, while I agree that most "hip hop" style music has bass in the 50 Hz and up arena, I don't listen to hip hop. And it is pretty easy to find a subwoofer that kicks in the chest @ 63 Hz.

Try that with the enchanced (synthetic) kickdrum from Steely Dan's 2AN DVD-A disc - which reaches from the mid 40's into the mid 20's, and you will understand what I mean about kicking in the chest being in the 30 to 50 Hz range.

It is a totally different "animal" than the 63 Hz kickdrum you mentioned, and it HITS you with a good subwoofer.

Well Craig since I listen to hip hop (don't let that discredit my musical tastes) we normally tune our subs at 50 and below in order to get that "BOOM" that you are speaking of. I am a mid-bass freak for some reason and like to feel and get that kick in the 63 and higher range when listening to music (non hip hop) but it sounds like crap for movies and hip hop/pop.

When watching the Fleetwood Mac DVD his kick drum is way lower than what I have experienced. But then again most of my experience with a kick drum comes from inside the church hall where everything just sounds bad.

I love it. The same thing is happening when Craig rated some subs higher than the SVS.

Guys, relax and just enjoy your sub. There will always be better. Just think, Craig will now have to sell his Viper to get the new 600 HP version.

Craig you own a VIPER?!?!?!?!

Talk about kick in the chest. Dump the clutch at around 5,000 (it wasn't mine and I was afraid to break it) and your butt/back becomes one with the seat.

Well Craig since I listen to hip hop (don't let that discredit my musical tastes) we normally tune our subs at 50 and below in order to get that "BOOM" that you are speaking of. I am a mid-bass freak for some reason and like to feel and get that kick in the 63 and higher range when listening to music (non hip hop) but it sounds like crap for movies and hip hop/pop.

When watching the Fleetwood Mac DVD his kick drum is way lower than what I have experienced. But then again most of my experience with a kick drum comes from inside the church hall where everything just sounds bad.

I would never discredit someone's music tastes. Heck, I even like country music ... well ... some of it.

Getting mid bass that kicks is pretty easy, much easier than 30 Hz bass that kicks.

And yes, I have a Viper. It is more car than I ever will be driver, and a really fun machine.

:D

Craig you own a VIPER?!?!?!?!

Talk about kick in the chest. Dump the clutch at around 5,000 (it wasn't mine and I was afraid to break it) and your butt/back becomes one with the seat.

make sure you use slicks if you're going to dump the clutch at 5K or you're not going to do anything but smell burning rubber :D

Any new tests coming up Craig?

Can we have a discussion about something without resorting to comments like "hate to disagree with the guru" ? I have never declared myself to be a "guru" :rolleyes:

Now, while I agree that most "hip hop" style music has bass in the 50 Hz and up arena, I don't listen to hip hop. And it is pretty easy to find a subwoofer that kicks in the chest @ 63 Hz.

Try that with the enchanced (synthetic) kickdrum from Steely Dan's 2AN DVD-A disc - which reaches from the mid 40's into the mid 20's, and you will understand what I mean about kicking in the chest being in the 30 to 50 Hz range.

It is a totally different "animal" than the 63 Hz kickdrum you mentioned, and it HITS you with a good subwoofer.

yeah...my bad. what i was kind of thinking was that most of the musical slam that most people are familiar with is in the 50-150Hz range, not that it can't exist (or is unimportant) down lower.

also, i didn't mean to give the wrong impression by using the "guru" term. it's just after reading/scanning *the whole thread*, you really do strike me as such. sorry if it came off the wrong way.

For my PB13U which do you guys think is better an SMS-1 or a Behringer?

John

Any new tests coming up Craig?

I think he's more concerned with his sister now than to plan anything regarding subwoofers.

I know I'll get him an A5-350 when he tells me to :)

yeah...my bad. what i was kind of thinking was that most of the musical slam that most people are familiar with is in the 50-150Hz range, not that it can't exist (or is unimportant) down lower.

also, i didn't mean to give the wrong impression by using the "guru" term. it's just after reading/scanning *the whole thread*, you really do strike me as such. sorry if it came off the wrong way.

Hope you find the humour here ... From Merriam-Webster

1: a personal religious teacher and spiritual guide in Hinduism
2 : a teacher and especially intellectual guide in matters of fundamental concern

There has to be a subwoofer joke in the "fundamental concern" portion of the definition.

Anyway ... no harm, that "slam" in the above 50 Hz arena has been fairly easy to reproduce for years ... it is more recent that we have been treated to a quantity of deep bass, and subs that can deliver that 25-50 Hz bass with "slam" are what we are seeking in subwoofers.

There has to be a subwoofer joke in the "fundamental concern" portion of the definition.


i thought the "personal religious teacher" bit was germane as well given how serious lots of people take their subs. :)

on a less jovial note, i am surprised by how fast many of these subwoofers have become, yet perplexed by HSU's introduction of the mid-bass module.

do the "faster" subs, such as the PB13-U or the DD-18, sufficiently cover the mid-bass or do they lack the last bit of speed that is best left to a lightweight, highly efficient, driver? or put another way, are these higher-end subs as fast in the mid-bass as the 15" drivers in most PA equipment (such as the legendary JBL2226)?

Could someone start a poll, please?

"When do we get rid of 'fast bass' definition?"

Thanks. ;)

Could someone start a poll, please?

"When do we get rid of 'fast bass' definition?"

Thanks. ;)

Probably about the same time that we get rid of the belief that sealed is always better than ported with music.

Probably about the same time that we get rid of the belief that sealed is always better than ported with music.
So true... :( :mad:

Probably about the same time that we get rid of the belief that sealed is always better than ported with music.

why does svs include a "sealed" mode on it's new ultra ?

Could someone start a poll, please?

"When do we get rid of 'fast bass' definition?"

Thanks. ;)

well, every time we want to describe the idea we could say something like "...rapid recovery in the time domain from a transient or other energy increasing input back to the low energy state, typical of, but not exclusive to highly damped..." or, we could just say "fast bass."

EDIT: with that said, i think we are into symantics here, so if this concept is called something else (ring?), just let me know and i'll go along.

Could someone start a poll, please?

"When do we get rid of 'fast bass' definition?"

Thanks. ;)

Probably about the time that people understand that some subwoofers are better a providing bass with better definition than others do ... and those subwoofers usually sound "faster" than others. It is a descriptive term.

Yes, we have all seen the posts saying "there is no such thing as fast bass, 30 Hz is 30 Hz".

This is true.

What is not true is that each subwoofer does as good a job at presenting deep bass equally, in terms of definition. ;)

well, every time we want to describe the idea we could say something like "...rapid recovery in the time domain from a transient or other energy increasing input back to the low energy state, typical of, but not exclusive to highly damped..." or, we could just say "fast bass."
Oh, so you DO know that there is no such thing as fast bass. Good for you. :) ;)

There MUST be some other way to say it than either of those two...

Not sure if you are interested, but another sub that might be interesting to test is the MackieHRS120 (http://www.mackie.com/products/studiomonitors/index.html). For those unfamiliar, it is a studio monitor sub that has a 12" passive radiator and 12" servo woofer that is claimed to have 21Hz - 150Hz ±1.5dB freq response. They note that it uses a lightweight, high efficiency, approach to the design with the goal being accurate representation of music. There doesn't seem to be anything like it in the line up.

I have the Mackie HR824 monitors... they don't really need a sub. They go low. FAT bass.

Not sure if you are interested, but another sub that might be interesting to test is the MackieHRS120 (http://www.mackie.com/products/studiomonitors/index.html). For those unfamiliar, it is a studio monitor sub that has a 12" passive radiator and 12" servo woofer that is claimed to have 21Hz - 150Hz ±1.5dB freq response. They note that it uses a lightweight, high efficiency, approach to the design with the goal being accurate representation of music. There doesn't seem to be anything like it in the line up.

Nice idea ... right now, I want to finish up with the new driver for the Trinity, and am still waiting for more news on my sister.

The replacement driver for the Trinity has been here for 2 weeks, and that needs done ... and the family stuff is just too overwhelming to take on any new projects.

Craigsub,

I'm sure many of us would like to hear more about how your sister is doing but won't ask...fill us in on whatever details you see fit whenever you have time. Yes, it's not really any of our business, but we're here for you if it helps...

I think he's more concerned with his sister now than to plan anything regarding subwoofers.

I know I'll get him an A5-350 when he tells me to :)

Waiting on the A5-350 review from craig as well. Or for that matter an A3-300(w/ upgraded driver) But I understand other things take priority...good luck!

why does svs include a "sealed" mode on it's new ultra ?

I'd like to believe it's because the sealed mode provides a curve which compliments the sort of room gain you might get in smaller, mostly sealed room.

... it is more recent that we have been treated to a quantity of deep bass, and subs that can deliver that 25-50 Hz bass with "slam" are what we are seeking in subwoofers.
Some people also need the ability to blend well with their mains , which , if you are trying for great music too, may mean that the higher frequencies (60-80hz if yor speakers are crossed over at 80) should be rendered with articulation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Mayer
Could someone start a poll, please?

"When do we get rid of 'fast bass' definition?"

Thanks.
well, every time we want to describe the idea we could say something like "...rapid recovery in the time domain from a transient or other energy increasing input back to the low energy state, typical of, but not exclusive to highly damped..." or, we could just say "fast bass"
EDIT: with that said, i think we are into symantics here, so if this concept is called something else (ring?), just let me know and i'll go along.

Very well put.

Yes its just semantics. "Fast" and "tight" bass are non-technical terms that have been used interchangeably for decades to describe the above phenomena. Some people don't like the jargon because they immediately think of velocity or sound wave propagation. Its not an issue and actually helps communicate what people are hearing.

Its similar to how some listeners describe certain speakers as "warm" or bright. I doubt they placed a thermometer or sunglasses on the speaker to arrive at that observation. ;)

Long time, no see Craig!

I'll be making a DIY sub soon using 2 Soudsplinter 18" (TC Sounds drivers) and a SVS Ultra/2 amp.

I just need a name for it now....

http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp18_subwoofer_information.html

http://www.soundsplinter.com/images/rlp18-side-angle-sm.jpg

Craig,

I just (two weeks ago) had Gall Bladder surgery. Fortunatley I did not have the same issues as your sister and I really hope and am praying for a favorable outcome for her and your family. I took me a little to post this as I am playing catch-up from being out of commision for a few days.

Once you get everything squared away with her, we will all still be here. Good luck and God Speed!!!!

Long time, no see Craig!

I'll be making a DIY sub soon using 2 Soudsplinter 18" (TC Sounds drivers) and a SVS Ultra/2 amp.

I just need a name for it now....

http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp18_subwoofer_information.html

http://www.soundsplinter.com/images/rlp18-side-angle-sm.jpg

An Ultra Splinter is a Toothe Pick! So that is the name i Suggest, the Toothe Pick or TOOF PIK if you're gangsta

lol.. yeah a tooth pick would make for an ultra splinter but it doesnt sound much like a name for a beefy subwoofer.

Well the only other thing i could come up with due to the impressive 18"s being used is the "Air Club" since it is bound to move massive amounts of air and you should feel it pounding your chest.

Hello,

Using the search function I can't seem to find anybody that owns a A7-900 other the Craig. I need a new toy and was wondering if anybody has one and how does it compare to what you have owned in the past. I am thinking on pulling the trigger on this or the Conquest.

Thanks,

rmlowz

I think the gargantuan size and weight of that ED sub may limit how many potential buyers are willing to accommodate it. By comparison, the Conquest is actually rather svelte. :eek:

Hello,


The size really does not bother me, like you said the Conquest would fit in a room better. I just want the best performance.

Thanks,

rmlowz

While I'm not really in the market, I too would like to see these two compared.

There are some A7-900s out there...you might need to contact Chris or Alex to find out where.

I think the gargantuan size and weight of that ED sub may limit how many potential buyers are willing to accommodate it. By comparison, the Conquest is actually rather svelte. :eek:

how much weight can a living room hold?

would 2 in each corner make my living room fall into the basement ?

:eek:

(that would be 2 on the left front and 2 on the right front)

how much weight can a living room hold?

would 2 in each corner make my living room fall into the basement ?

:eek:

Now that would be a funny story to tell the insurance company... :D

how much weight can a living room hold?


the fact that it is even a question is so freak'n hilarious, i had to go look it up. it is apparently called "floor live load". Here is an excerpt from a company (http://www.clarkwestern.com/lightGaugeSteelFAQs.php) that makes steel supports:

The nation's model building Codes, BOCA, SBC and UBC all have minimum required floor live loads (PSF). The 3 Codes, for example, use a 40 PSF floor LL for residential, 50 PSF floor live load for offices and a 125 PSF floor live load for light storage.

EDIT:
The big ED sub is 435 lbs (shipping weight, couldn't find the actual unit). using that, and the fact that it is 8.8 sq ft area, give a per square foot (PSF) LL of 49 lbs, which exceeds the residential building code limit of 40 PSF. :eek::eek::eek::eek:

Of course, pianos are much heavier and have no problems. It's just kind of funny that it exceeds building code specs.

the fact that it is even a question is so freak'n hilarious, i had to go look it up. it is apparently called "floor live load". Here is an excerpt from a company (http://www.clarkwestern.com/lightGaugeSteelFAQs.php) that makes steel supports:

The nation's model building Codes, BOCA, SBC and UBC all have minimum required floor live loads (PSF). The 3 Codes, for example, use a 40 PSF floor LL for residential, 50 PSF floor live load for offices and a 125 PSF floor live load for light storage.

EDIT:
The big ED sub is 435 lbs (shipping weight, couldn't find the actual unit). using that, and the fact that it is 8.8 sq ft area, give a per square foot (PSF) LL of 49 lbs, which exceeds the residential building code limit of 40 PSF. :eek::eek::eek::eek:

Of course, pianos are much heavier and have no problems. It's just kind of funny that it exceeds building code specs.

Hmm, that is an interesting spec. My Fathom F112 comes out at 62 PSF. Yikes! :eek: 115lbs, but only 1.85 sq ft.

You have a live load and on top of that you have a safety factor. A subwoofer is a lot less per square foot than a 100 pound woman in high heels. Also many people have grand pianos that weigh over a thousand pounds. Keep in mind a 40lb/sf live load means that a 10' x 10' room would be able to support 4,000 lbs spread evenly over the whole floor. So slightly exceeding 40 lbs/SF in one area is not going to cause a problem since the rest of the floor is not loaded.

did Craig ever post pics of his elemental design subwoofer? I went back up to page 92 and didn't see it.

does anyone have some decent pics? especially ones with people in it.

i remember craig posting something like that, in his garage I think, but I can't find it even with the search function.

did Craig ever post pics of his elemental design subwoofer? I went back up to page 97 and didn't see it.

does anyone have some decent pics? especially ones with people in it.

i remember craig posting something like that, in his garage I think, but I can't find it even with the search function.


It's on page 70

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768150&page=70

thanks morningstar67

Hello forum friends,

I could not stand it any longer doing all the research this past weekend. I really wanted to buy a new toy. I just talked to Chris at ED and ordred a A7-900. Hopefully it should be here before or a little after Thanksgiving.

rmlowz

Hello forum friends,

I could not stand it any longer doing all the research this past weekend. I really wanted to buy a new toy. I just talked to Chris at ED and ordred a A7-900. Hopefully it should be here before or a little after Thanksgiving.

rmlowz

Congrats on your purchase! I am sure it will be good investment.

Hello forum friends,

I could not stand it any longer doing all the research this past weekend. I really wanted to buy a new toy. I just talked to Chris at ED and ordred a A7-900. Hopefully it should be here before or a little after Thanksgiving.

rmlowz

You gonna use that with your JTR Growler? If so, that will be some serious low end in your 15 x 18 x 8 room. Nice.

Official crazy person award goes to rmlowz.

Tombstone will read "just didn't know when to stop woofing"

Official crazy person award goes to rmlowz.

Tombstone will read "just didn't know when to stop woofing"I can read the headlines now "Bizarre accident during Crawl Test" , "Crushed in Austin" , "A man's head exploded today..."

Hello forum friends,

I know it might be crazy, I guess I don't know when to stop woofing? I only do the crawl test when nobody is in the room. If my wife saw me do that she would call the patty wagon and have me taken away. Davecraze I dont know what I will do? Use the Growlers combo or not. I will use it by itself at first. Honestly, I dont think the sub is big at all compared to the Danley I have.

Take Care,

rmlowz

so, doesn't anybody have measurements of the A7-900 either anechoic or ground plane of the power compression and THD? even if it was supplied by eD?

Hello forum friends,

I could not stand it any longer doing all the research this past weekend. I really wanted to buy a new toy. I just talked to Chris at ED and ordred a A7-900. Hopefully it should be here before or a little after Thanksgiving.

rmlowz

:D

Hello forum friends,

I know it might be crazy, I guess I don't know when to stop woofing? I only do the crawl test when nobody is in the room. If my wife saw me do that she would call the patty wagon and have me taken away. Davecraze I dont know what I will do? Use the Growlers combo or not. I will use it by itself at first. Honestly, I dont think the sub is big at all compared to the Danley I have.

Take Care,

rmlowz

Please report back on the eD vs the Danley after you get it. That will be an interesting comparison and there is probably no one else who will have both side by side.

c'mon guys, no measurements on the A7-900? (THD and power compression) ... show me some and I will order one right away!

Ribbit, from 20 Hz and up, the A7-900 will deliver a clean 114 dB @ 2 meters groundplane. This was measured at 2 meters from the baffle of the port ... and is the unit at the onset of compression. At 40 Hz, it cleared 120 dB. And it delivered a solid 110 dB @ 15 Hz.

I ran the unit into compression so everyone could "see" the SPL when it hit this level - it slightly exceeds the CEA standards for distortion in 7th and 9th order harmonics, but it was not audibly distorting at these extreme levels.

I was standing about 40 feet away, and still was amazed at the power. If you look at the 115 dB number in the upper left hand corner, that is the 20 Hz SPL being delivered by the eD.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/a7900max20Hz.jpg

Hello forum friends,

I could not stand it any longer doing all the research this past weekend. I really wanted to buy a new toy. I just talked to Chris at ED and ordred a A7-900. Hopefully it should be here before or a little after Thanksgiving.

rmlowz

Hmmmm. If you consider that rmlowz has owned or owns a fathom, DD18, Danley 20, Def Tech Trinity, and Klipsch Ultras there should be a fair amout of interest in what he thinks about the Ed when he gets it. Now if we could just talk him into ordering a Conquest too. :eek: My house to his in two and a half hours if I put the pedal to the metal.:D

this was posted over at AV123 forums......my condolences Craig. :( Subwoofers and differing opinions aside, time to put the hobby on pause and extend you and your family my prayers.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11982222#post11982222

Ribbit, from 20 Hz and up, the A7-900 will deliver a clean 114 dB @ 2 meters groundplane. This was measured at 2 meters from the baffle of the port ... and is the unit at the onset of compression. At 40 Hz, it cleared 120 dB. And it delivered a solid 110 dB @ 15 Hz.

I ran the unit into compression so everyone could "see" the SPL when it hit this level - it slightly exceeds the CEA standards for distortion in 7th and 9th order harmonics, but it was not audibly distorting at these extreme levels.

I was standing about 40 feet away, and still was amazed at the power. If you look at the 115 dB number in the upper left hand corner, that is the 20 Hz SPL being delivered by the eD.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/a7900max20Hz.jpg
Craig,

Something's wrong. The spectrum in that graph clearly exceeds the CEA-2010 distortion thresholds for 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and probably 10th and higher order harmonics. So therefore it isn't 'clean' by CEA-2010 standard, and also I don't believe it can sound clean even to you. Odd-order harmonic distortion also sounds worse than even-order HD. THD in that graph is around ~42-45%.

My deepest condolences on your loss.

Richard, Craig did say it was "clean" at 114 db, but as he said, ran the sub into compression which is what the graph is showing at 115+db.

Richard, Craig did say it was "clean" at 114 db, but as he said, ran the sub into compression which is what the graph is showing at 115+db.
Yeah but he said that it was not audibly distorting at these extreme levels. Believe me, that kind of distortion is extremely audible to most people. Also the CEA-2010 standard proves it.

Also I would like to see the same measurement at 114 dB if possible.

my condolences Craig.

My condolences Craig.

Wow ... speechless. My condolences as well Craig.

Deepest sympathies, Craig. Very sad to read about your sister. :(

Yeah but he said that it was not audibly distorting at these extreme levels. Believe me, that kind of distortion is extremely audible to most people. Also the CEA-2010 standard proves it.

Also I would like to see the same measurement at 114 dB if possible.

Richard, One reason I am hesitant about posting graphs is that regardless what graph is posted, someone always wants another graph.

I was standing 40 feet from the subwoofer, and all you could do was feel the bass.

Maybe some have golden ears, and could hear the unit distorting. I could not.

What I did was increase the gain until the harmonics spiked, as shown here, and then I stopped the software and captured the graph.

It is normal subwoofer behaviour for any subwoofer to "spike", in terms of distortion, when it hits compression.

I am sorry if this graph does not "work" for you, but I cannot take the 435 pound subwoofer outside in the rain, and remeasure it, to satisfy this "need" to see what it does at 114 dB. It either makes sense that 114 dB will be a "clean" signal, or it won't. If it does not make sense to you, that is cool.

I also understand that there are some guys who think that graphs will tell you all you need about a subwoofer's performance.

Having listened to well over 100 subwoofers in our room, I *know* that not all subwoofers which can deliver, say, 110 dB "clean", in room, @ 20 Hz will sound the same.

There are some guys who like the blind listening tests along with a few graphs to show objective performance.

That is the type of test I do. I spend hours listening, and have others join on with their opinions, too. This includes guys who design speakers for a living. Then I will take some graphs of the subwoofer at a few different frequencies, and check its objective output levels.

There are others who do no listening tests, but rather rely soley on measurements.

That is the type of test they do.

We have different reasons for the tests we do, and I would hope by now that the on line community would appreciate both.

On a personal note, thanks to all about the prayers and kind words about my little sister and our family.

The past 3 weeks have been very difficult, and right now, I am waiting in my office for word from Alaska.

The staff at the hospital there has put forth an amazing effort to save my sister, and every possible procedure they could do, was done.

I am now wishing that she feel no more pain, and also worry for my parents.

They and my sister's children are still in Alaska, with her, and will be so until the end.

I have seen some wonderful things from my family and friends over the past few weeks, and even in this extremely sad time, it is a good feeling from the responses.

Craig,

I am so sorry to here the news. Our thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

rmlowz

this is so sad, my condolences craig. my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family

Richard, One reason I am hesitant about posting graphs is that regardless what graph is posted, someone always wants another graph.

I was standing 40 feet from the subwoofer, and all you could do was feel the bass.

Maybe some have golden ears, and could hear the unit distorting. I could not.

What I did was increase the gain until the harmonics spiked, as shown here, and then I stopped the software and captured the graph.

It is normal subwoofer behaviour for any subwoofer to "spike", in terms of distortion, when it hits compression.

I am sorry if this graph does not "work" for you, but I cannot take the 435 pound subwoofer outside in the rain, and remeasure it, to satisfy this "need" to see what it does at 114 dB. It either makes sense that 114 dB will be a "clean" signal, or it won't. If it does not make sense to you, that is cool.

I also understand that there are some guys who think that graphs will tell you all you need about a subwoofer's performance.

Having listened to well over 100 subwoofers in our room, I *know* that not all subwoofers which can deliver, say, 110 dB "clean", in room, @ 20 Hz will sound the same.

There are some guys who like the blind listening tests along with a few graphs to show objective performance.

That is the type of test I do. I spend hours listening, and have others join on with their opinions, too. This includes guys who design speakers for a living. Then I will take some graphs of the subwoofer at a few different frequencies, and check its objective output levels.

There are others who do no listening tests, but rather rely soley on measurements.

That is the type of test they do.

We have different reasons for the tests we do, and I would hope by now that the on line community would appreciate both.
Craig,

You got it wrong. I don't criticize your tests per se, they are a wonderful effort. I just wanted to point out that the graph you showed clearly exceeds the CEA-2010 distortion thresholds for 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and probably 10th and higher order harmonics.

Sorry but I don't agree with your spiking theory. Distortion is a gradual phenomenon so it crawls up pretty steadily. Look at the measurements available at other forums. I don't see a single sub measured by Illka or AV Talk which distortion spikes like you described. Especially when you say 114 dB was clean but 115.48 dB looks like that.

That's why I would have liked to see the 114 dB measurement, too. I doubt it's much cleaner than the one you show, and definitely won't pass the CEA-2010 distortion threshold. :(

does anyone have a copy of standard cea-2010? the cea site is reporting that it costs $58 for the standard.

maybe i don't understand and appreciate how these things work, but in my mind, if something is going to be a standard, then it has to be knowable (free of charge) to anybody who wants to know. imagine having to pay a royalty to the guy who happened to have a 12 inch long foot every time that we wanted to know how long a 'foot' was. jeez.

does anyone have a copy of standard cea-2010? the cea site is reporting that it costs $58 for the standard.

maybe i don't understand and appreciate how these things work, but in my mind, if something is going to be a standard, then it has to be knowable (free of charge) to anybody who wants to know. imagine having to pay a royalty to the guy who happened to have a 12 inch long foot every time that we wanted to know how long a 'foot' was. jeez.
There's a 'draft': http://www.almainternational.org/2006_symposium_papers/2005-12-20-CEA-2010-DRAFT.pdf

Craig,

You got it wrong. I don't criticize your tests per se, they are a wonderful effort. I just wanted to point out that the graph you showed clearly exceeds the CEA-2010 distortion thresholds for 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and probably 10th and higher order harmonics.

Sorry but I don't agree with your spiking theory. Distortion is a gradual phenomenon so it crawls up pretty steadily. Look at the measurements available at other forums. I don't see a single sub measured by Illka or AV Talk which distortion spikes like you described. Especially when you say 114 dB was clean but 115.48 dB looks like that.

That's why I would have liked to see the 114 dB measurement, too. I doubt it's much cleaner than the one you show, and definitely won't pass the CEA-2010 distortion threshold. :(

When Ilkka tested, for example, the Hsu VTF-3.2, @ 20 Hz it delivered 96 dB for a 9% THD vs. appx. 30% for a 97 dB DELIVERED SPL.

Look at the "green" line vs. the "orange" line on these 2 graphs.

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/hsu%20vtf3%20mk2%2020hz%20max.png

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/hsu%20vtf3%20mk2%2020hz%20thd.png

When Ilkka tested, for example, the Hsu VTF-3.2, @ 20 Hz it delivered 96 dB for a 9% THD vs. appx. 30% for a 97 dB DELIVERED SPL.

Look at the "green" line vs. the "orange" line on these 2 graphs.

Yes but Ilkka was using a 5 dB increment. We don't know how large yours was?

Basically this is just pure speculation. If you could show the 'clean' 114 dB graph, all would be good. Why couldn't you show it in the first place by the way? Wouldn't people like to see 'clean' 114 dB instead of overly distorted 115.48 dB?

Hello,

Tobester, you are welcome anytime. The fathom left last night I have never sold something so fast. I am making room for the A7-900. I am down to the Ultra IIs, 2 Growlers and the Danley. If I sell my AV9 in the marketplace a Conquest would be very tempting to order. I told myself no more loud demos after I repaired and painted sheetrock cracks. Maybe just a few more loud demos when the ED gets here.

Thanks,

rmlowz

Yes but Ilkka was using a 5 dB increment. We don't know how large yours was?

Basically this is just pure speculation. If you could show the 'clean' 114 dB graph, all would be good. Why couldn't you show it in the first place by the way? Wouldn't people like to see 'clean' 114 dB instead of overly distorted 115.48 dB?

Richard, it is a very small minority that obsesses about seeing all these different levels in graphs. I showed the point of compression, period. At 114 dB, it was "clean". Most people read what I say about these tests, and don't require another graph for each and every test I do.

You just got done saying this:

Distortion is a gradual phenomenon so it crawls up pretty steadily. Look at the measurements available at other forums. I don't see a single sub measured by Illka or AV Talk which distortion spikes like you described.

The simple fact is, distortion does "spike" when adding as little as 1 dB of output at 20 Hz when you hit compression. Even Ilkka's graph clearly shows this.

Craig,

Sorry but I don't agree with your spiking theory. Distortion is a gradual phenomenon so it crawls up pretty steadily. Look at the measurements available at other forums. I don't see a single sub measured by Illka or AV Talk which distortion spikes like you described. Especially when you say 114 dB was clean but 115.48 dB looks like that.



Tom Vodhanel (SVS, don't know of him or if he is still there) posted (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/svsound/826-new-cea-2010-method-measuring-true-subwoofer-performance.html) on the new cea-2010 standard where he said, "Once you reach 10%, it (almost always) only takes another dB or two to raise the distortion levels to 25-35%(and often much higher). So if a subwoofer hits 100dB/20hz/10% THD...pushing it to 111-112dB will typically give you >30%." It would appear that the *rate* of distortion increase is very high as one gets up near 10%+ THD. It's certainly not a linear function of SPL.

EDIT: I didn't realize that Vodhanel was the V in SVS. My bad.

One more try: hi Craig!

Richard, it is a very small minority that obsesses about seeing all these different levels in graphs. I showed the point of compression, period. At 114 dB, it was "clean". Most people read what I say about these tests, and don't require another graph for each and every test I do.
I require graphs because they are much harder evidence than someone's word. Not that I wouldn't believe in you. ;)


You just got done saying this:

The simple fact is, distortion does "spike" when adding as little as 1 dB of output at 20 Hz when you hit compression. Even Ilkka's graph clearly shows this.
Ilkka's graph shows that the distortion rises pretty fast when adding 5 dB more input. That means that there is 4 dB of compression. If he would have added only 1-2 dB, the THD jump would have been much smaller.

But I see that you can't show the graph.

Tom Vodhanel (SVS, don't know of him or if he is still there) posted (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/svsound/826-new-cea-2010-method-measuring-true-subwoofer-performance.html) on the new cea-2010 standard where he said, "Once you reach 10%, it (almost always) only takes another dB or two to raise the distortion levels to 25-35%(and often much higher). So if a subwoofer hits 100dB/20hz/10% THD...pushing it to 111-112dB will typically give you >30%." It would appear that the *rate* of distortion increase is very high as one gets up near 10%+ THD. It's certainly not a linear function of SPL.

EDIT: I didn't realize that Vodhanel was the V in SVS. My bad.
I never said it was a linear function of SPL. Though I don't agree that it jumps from 10% to >30% when one adds 1-2 dB input. At least most subwoofers won't behave like that.

Like I said, this is just pure speculation when we don't have more measured data on the eD sub. Maybe someone else will measure it more thoroughly some day. It seems like a great, though VERY large, subwoofer. :)

I require graphs because they are much harder evidence than someone's word. Not that I wouldn't believe in you. ;)


Ilkka's graph shows that the distortion rises pretty fast when adding 5 dB more input. That means that there is 4 dB of compression. If he would have added only 1-2 dB, the THD jump would have been much smaller.

But I see that you can't show the graph.

Richard, You "require" ? :rolleyes: ... I had not realized this was Richard's domain.

You have no idea whether or not 1-2 dB more would have resulted in the same distortion rise or not.

You are guessing.

The fact is, for ONE more dB of delivered SPL, distortion rose from 9% to 30%.

You said distortion was a gradual thing, and that this could not happen.

You were wrong, Richard. It happens quite frequently.

Perhaps if you would think this through, it would help. I kept turning up the gain until the distortion spiked, which was the onset of compression.

Do you think this gain was 1.5 dB above the delivered 114 dB level, or do you think perhaps, based on logic, it was much more than that, based on the graph I posted ?

I just showed my brother's lead engineer the same graph, and he "got" the answer in 0.2 seconds. ;)

Richard, You "require" ? :rolleyes:

You have no idea whether or not 1-2 dB more would have resulted in the same distortion rise or not.

You are guessing.

The fact is, for ONE more dB of delivered SPL, distortion rose from 9% to 30%.

You said distortion was a gradual thing, and that this could not happen.

You were wrong, Richard. It happens quite frequently.

Perhaps if you would think this through, it would help. I kept turning up the gain until the distortion spiked, which was the onset of compression.

Do you think this gain was 1.5 dB above the delivered 114 dB level, or do you think perhaps, based on logic, it was much more than that, based on the graph I posted ?

I just showed my brother's lead engineer the same graph, and he "got" the answer in 0.2 seconds. ;)

Craig,

Was that graph from 2m or from 40' I get confused since it seems to have been referenced as both :)

Craig,

Was that graph from 2m or from 40' I get confused since it seems to have been referenced as both :)

The microphone was 2 meters. I was 40 feet away.

I REALLY appreciate long cables when doing these tests .... :D

I never said it was a linear function of SPL. Though I don't agree that it jumps from 10% to >30% when one adds 1-2 dB input. At least most subwoofers won't behave like that.


Ed Mullen at Secrets has this (http://www.ecoustics.com/secrets/volume_13_1/svs-pb12-plus-subwoofer-1-2006-part-3.html) to say about THD, "Most woofers will exhibit fairly linear output behavior up to about 10% THD. If the woofer is pushed much past 10% THD, it will quickly become non-linear, with small increases in sound pressure resulting in disproportionately large increases in distortion."

The data and annecdotes seem to be supporting Craig's claim. It seems that it is more typical that a subwoofer will have exponentially increasing THD as it crosses into its compression zone--which also seems to correspond to THD increasing past ~10%.

In Richard's defense, below the critical point of compression, THD can be characterized as "...a gradual phenomenon so it crawls up pretty steadily."

Does anyone have the Infinity PS212 Subs? And what is your impression or review of these subs?

The microphone was 2 meters. I was 40 feet away.

I REALLY appreciate long cables when doing these tests .... :D

Ahhhh.

I was going to crap myself if you managed to pull a 115 ground plane from an A7-900 from 40'.

One more try: hi Craig!

Snubbed...ouch!:(

Does anyone have the Infinity PS212 Subs? And what is your impression or review of these subs?

I have an Infinity PS212. Honestly, it's decent if you don't need the really deep stuff from HT, and you don't listen insanely high levels. I personally just purchased an SVS PB10-NSD (just arrived today, in fact!) and find it to be a significant improvement (especially in extension). However, the Infinity isn't bad. And I think the Infinity can go as loud as or even louder than the SVS. I haven't done measurements, but the PB10's are known for being very linear but not having as much punch in the mid-bass region, instead specializing in extending deep (for an entry level sub). The Infinity I think is louder and punchier in the higher 40-80hz range, but it can't dig down deep for the lowest HT effects.

I've seen the PS212 as low as around $250 or $260 including shipping from time to time, and at that price, I think it's an excellent choice. At its MSRP of close to $500, there's much better stuff out there.

BTW, my listening room is my small 11' x 10' x 8' bedroom (live at home college student, here!), and either sub has plenty of power for a small room unless you listen at reference level or above. Either is comfortable hitting around 103-105dB in my room, the SVS just can to deeper doing it. Hope this helps.

Stephen

Snubbed...ouch!:(

No snub ... I never saw it. Sorry, man ... :o

I require graphs because they are much harder evidence than someone's word. Not that I wouldn't believe in you. ;)


I'm confused as to why you are doubting Craig's word. I'm not sure what advantage Craig would have to lie. He ranked a previous ED product quite low and his results aren't out of step with other reviewers' remarks.

More to the point I wonder why you'd think a graph provided on the Internet from someone whom you don't trust is required/sufficient. You obviously distrust his word as you have called it to question and graphs are easy enough to fudge and post. If I distrusted someone a graph they provided wouldn't appease me. Of course I would also be very unlikely to waste my time reading their comments in the first place.

It seems pretty clear that Craig takes graphs at the point of [test] failure. If he did it prior to the point of failure he'd have to take a lot of graphs or go back and redo the prior test. This would be ideal, but Craig isn't paid to write reviews. Further from a scientific perspective graphs aren't required. Suitably descriptive entries in an experiment log are all that would be required. This is all that is needed to allow another to confirm or rebut with their own tests.

As a scientist I'm all for confirming or rebutting tests, but to attack test results and the word of a credible fellow without contrary evidence is in poor taste.

To do so while they are grieving from a personal loss is tasteless!

__

My condolences to Craig and his family.

craig, if you would like to add another to the list for future review, here is one that *lots* of people would like to see get torpedoed: Monster THX-SL200.

it's a 12" 200 watt sub, but it is THX approved. (http://thx.com/products/home/speakers.html) i'd love to see what happens when pushed with a 115dB signal@20Hz. poof!

For a product update, in November, we are getting the new MFW-15 in from AV-123, and the Axiom EP-350 Series 3.

They are $599 plus shipping and $758 including shipping, respectively.

Obviously, all testing will be as time and circumstances permit.

The subwoofer and speaker tests are a welcome diversion while waiting for more news on my sister.

So ... while there won't be a lot of additional meaningful tests for a while, thanks for giving me a place to hang out during this time. :)

Ilkka's graph shows that the distortion rises pretty fast when adding 5 dB more input. That means that there is 4 dB of compression. If he would have added only 1-2 dB, the THD jump would have been much smaller.

But Craig's graph and Illka's were not showing input at all. They were showing output or, as Craig stated and re-stated, "delivered" SPL. That seems to be the big disconnect here. You're talking about input levels increasing and Craig is talking strictly about the output.

Yeah, maybe the input increased 5 dB (via the gain knob) and the output only increased 1 or 2 dB. That makes sense and doesn't conflict with any of the graphs posted here today. So I don't see what the issue is.

But Craig's graph and Illka's were not showing input at all. They were showing output or, as Craig stated and re-stated, "delivered" SPL. That seems to be the big disconnect here. You're talking about input levels increasing and Craig is talking strictly about the output.

Yeah, maybe the input increased 5 dB (via the gain knob) and the output only increased 1 or 2 dB. That makes sense and doesn't conflict with any of the graphs posted here today. So I don't see what the issue is.
We know that Ilkka uses 5 dB increments. What we don't know, is how much input level Craig added on top of that 114 dB output. Could have been 1 dB or could have been 5 dB. That definitely affects how much distortion there is.

Sorry for bringing this up especially now when Craig has some other issues, but when I saw that graph and a word 'clean' (and "no audible distortion") close to each other, I couldn't help but wonder. Maybe that 114 dB graph was much cleaner than that, we never know that since Craig didn't save it or doesn't want to show it. If it's the latter, at least I become pretty suspicious.

Maybe that 114 dB graph was much cleaner than that, we never know that since Craig didn't save it or doesn't want to show it.

jeez dude, those are borderline fight'n words. you can question findings, but unless you have a really strong case, don't question his integrity.

so can somebody describe to me what craig's graph will look like if it was on something like ilkka's THD graph?

115db, does that mean, one line higher than the red 110db line?

i'm not technically savvy like you guys ... sorry.

jeez dude, those are borderline fight'n words. you can question findings, but unless you have a really strong case, don't question his integrity.
LOL. Why can't I question his integrity (and I wasn't even doing that)? Has he became some sort of subwoofer God due to all the testing he does? :D

And we have seen this so many times before. Only a simple measurement would be asked to provide us more solid information, but he can not post it. I don't know the reason.

so can somebody describe to me what craig's graph will look like if it was on something like ilkka's THD graph?

115db, does that mean, one line higher than the red 110db line?

i'm not technically savvy like you guys ... sorry.
One can't really compare them. They are two totally different measurements. Other is a spectrum of a 20 Hz single sine wave, the other is showing THD at different output levels vs. frequency via long sine sweep method.

so can somebody describe to me what craig's graph will look like if it was on something like ilkka's THD graph?

115db, does that mean, one line higher than the red 110db line?

i'm not technically savvy like you guys ... sorry.

Ilkka and AVTalk run what is called a reverse sine wave, with an "attempt" to deliver SPL levels starting at the upper frequency and rolling downward ... I think it takes 30 or 45 seconds to reach the lowest frequency from the highest.

You can match the attempted frequency from the color coded line in each box to that on the graph.

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/hsu%20vtf3%20mk2%2020hz%20max.png

Mine is a straight sine wave @ 20 Hz only, with increasing levels of SPL applied until I see the onset of compression.

Ilkka's tests are "easier" to grab the SPL for a lot of different frequencies, while mine show that raw data for each harmonic.

I could capture a different graph for a lot of frequencies, but it is extremely time consuming, and I have found a pretty strong consistency between high output at 20 Hz and excellent sonic performance over the years, in terms of home theater use, so I use that for the HT benchmark test, in terms of showing the graph.

One can't really compare them. They are two totally different measurements. Other is a spectrum of a 20 Hz single sine wave, the other is showing THD at different output levels vs. frequency via long sine sweep method.

i see. thanks

I'm confused as to why you are doubting Craig's word. I'm not sure what advantage Craig would have to lie. He ranked a previous ED product quite low and his results aren't out of step with other reviewers' remarks.

More to the point I wonder why you'd think a graph provided on the Internet from someone whom you don't trust is required/sufficient. You obviously distrust his word as you have called it to question and graphs are easy enough to fudge and post. If I distrusted someone a graph they provided wouldn't appease me. Of course I would also be very unlikely to waste my time reading their comments in the first place.

It seems pretty clear that Craig takes graphs at the point of [test] failure. If he did it prior to the point of failure he'd have to take a lot of graphs or go back and redo the prior test. This would be ideal, but Craig isn't paid to write reviews. Further from a scientific perspective graphs aren't required. Suitably descriptive entries in an experiment log are all that would be required. This is all that is needed to allow another to confirm or rebut with their own tests.

As a scientist I'm all for confirming or rebutting tests, but to attack test results and the word of a credible fellow without contrary evidence is in poor taste.

To do so while they are grieving from a personal loss is tasteless!

__

My condolences to Craig and his family.



Well said.

Thanks for your comparisons and opinions on subs, Craig...

LOL. Why can't I question his integrity (and I wasn't even doing that)?


nice parenthetical edit on your post richard. see, you do know better. :)

More to the point I wonder why you'd think a graph provided on the Internet from someone whom you don't trust is required/sufficient.
Some people believe almost anything some people write on the Internet without any proofs, some require more proofs like measurements which are MUCH harder to "fudge" than simple words.

Unfortunately I am the latter kind. :) If that hurts your or Craig's feelings, I'm sorry about that.

Some people believe almost anything some people write on the Internet without any proofs, some require more proofs like measurements which are MUCH harder to "fudge" than simple words.

Unfortunately I am the latter kind. :) If that hurts your or Craig's feelings, I'm sorry about that.

Richard, if "fudging" was my goal, I could post a graph showing that the tiny "Tyke" subwoofer delivered 105 dB @ 25 Hz.

Skewing a graph is extremely easy for anyone to do.

You are not hurting my feelings. I do wonder why you bother participating in any thread in which I am involved, though.

Richard, if "fudging" was my goal, I could post a graph showing that the tiny "Tyke" subwoofer delivered 105 dB @ 25 Hz.
No you wouldn't because no one would believe that. :)


Skewing a graph is extremely easy for anyone to do.

Glad you are telling that. :D Though it doesn't change my opinion on words vs. graphs. There is a clear reason why most reviewers etc. are mostly using words.


You are not hurting my feelings. I do wonder why you bother participating in any thread in which I am involved, though.
True, but I get this uncontrollable need to notify you when something doesn't add up in your posts. You can call that a 'Big Brother Service'. :p

some require more proofs like measurements which are MUCH harder to "fudge" than simple words.

Really?

http://craigfroehle.com/posted/a7900max20Hz_cmf.jpg

Really?

Harder for a common man like Craig. ;)

I know some people can fake pretty much anything. I hope they aren't using it to hurt other people.

edit: And one can see that your graph is a fake. You should have matched those vertical lines a little bit better. ;)

i appreciate all the testing done by craig and others on this thread since i don't have
the time or money to do it myself and trust the judgement of those that can easily
afford which ever sounds the best with the most impact. that being said it is getting
harder to resist the upgrade bug before the end of the year.

Ok, enough of that graph talk. I know that Craig won't post that graph so we might as well move on. ------>

Looking forward to the MFW-15 listening impressions! :) Does it has an accurate shipping date already?

Ok, enough of that graph talk. I know that Craig won't post that graph so we might as well move on. ------>

Looking forward to the MFW-15 listening impressions! :) Does it has an accurate shipping date already?

Richard ... It is not that I "won't" post the graphs. I wheeled a 435 pound subwoofer outside, and took several measurements, and in each, I stopped the software at the point where compression was clearly seen in the spiking of the harmonics.

I captured the graph at that point.

That is all I have to post. If you don't want to believe what I said occured up until the point of compression, that is your problem.

Some people believe almost anything some people write on the Internet without any proofs, some require more proofs like measurements which are MUCH harder to "fudge" than simple words.

Unfortunately I am the latter kind. :) If that hurts your or Craig's feelings, I'm sorry about that.

:rolleyes:

Measurements provided on the internet are no more difficult to fudge then words on the internet. One doesn't even need to fudge a graph, they can just copy paste from another test and call it their own. The vastness of the internet is both its strength and its weakness. I'm a little amused that a simple graph would appease you when provided by a source you don't trust. My standards are significantly higher!

Craig ranking is his opinion in a subjective area. I read it like I would any opinion column in a news paper. It would be a mistake for ANYONE to believe that his rankings are the definitive truth in sub-woofers. I'm sure Craig would agree. As such I can understand disagreement on ranking or methodology, but not suggesting he is fudging or lying as you have done.

I'm not hurt by your comments, but I am irritated by your behavior. You have called to question Craig's word based on nothing. You have nothing to refute what he says he measured. You have no basis to question his measurements. No theory supporting your disparaging remarks. You don't even have a rational on why he would lie. I rarely post as spare time is not a commodity I have a lot of. As such I will not post in regards to you or your behavior again. Congratulations on becoming number 2 on my global ignore list.

Harder for a common man like Craig. ;)

I know some people can fake pretty much anything. I hope they aren't using it to hurt other people.

edit: And one can see that your graph is a fake. You should have matched those vertical lines a little bit better. ;)

*sigh*

Where's that 'ignore' list setting again?...

fergit all this crap...


i want to see some trinity guts

Richard ... It is not that I "won't" post the graphs. I wheeled a 435 pound subwoofer outside, and took several measurements, and in each, I stopped the software at the point where compression was clearly seen in the spiking of the harmonics.
The "won't" included the following options:

1) You never even measured the "114 dB" graph.

2) You measured it but lost it afterwords.

3) You have it but don't want to show it to us due to various reasons.

4) (Add your own.)

:D


That is all I have to post. If you don't want to believe what I said occured up until the point of compression, that is your problem.
That is true.

:rolleyes:

Measurements provided on the internet are no more difficult to fudge then words on the internet. One doesn't even need to fudge a graph, they can just copy paste from another test and call it their own. The vastness of the internet is both its strength and its weakness. I'm a little amused that a simple graph would appease you when provided by a source you don't trust. My standards are significantly higher!
Sorry but I don't agree. A simple copy/paste (or any similar action) wouldn't work in this case.

fergit all this crap...


i want to see some trinity guts

We do have those pics, I will see if my wife will get them into my Photobucket account.

like i said...

Sorry but I don't agree. A simple copy/paste (or any similar action) wouldn't work in this case.

sorry craig,

"like i said" was directed at this post

I guess if I wanted something done my way and for free and couldn't get it, I'm not really out anything. But, if it is something that I have to have because it is ingrained into my very existence, I am free to spend my own money and get it done or do it myself.

Ok, enough of that graph talk. I know that Craig won't post that graph so we might as well move on. ------>

Looking forward to the MFW-15 listening impressions! :) Does it has an accurate shipping date already? u guys are getting too spoiled on Craig's work..especially with what all has been going on with his sister.:mad: Be glad he does what he does...

The "won't" included the following options:

1) You never even measured the "114 dB" graph.

2) You measured it but lost it afterwords.

3) You have it but don't want to show it to us due to various reasons.

4) (Add your own.)


Richard, This is beyond tiring, but I will try this one more time.

I raised the volume level until I saw compression occuring with the spike in the harmonics.

This means I HAD to measure 114 dB. And 113 dB. And 112 dB. Are you tracking here ? I could not get to 115.48 dB before measuring the lower SPL levels.

I don't know at what point compression will "hit", so I would have to be a mind reader to capture the SPL level before compression sets in.

It is pretty easy to see from the 40-45 % THD that 115.48 dB was a compressed signal. At 114 dB, this spike had not occured.

I suppose that, after capturing the 115.48 dB level, I could have backed off the volume until the harmonics were lowered again, and then captrued that graph, too. I elected not to.

This is time consuming enough as it is.

Now, in the future, please do everyone a favor, either ignore this thread, or ask your questions via PM. And try asking the questions as legit questions, instead of your usual "Richard suspicions", and you JUST might find we can get along.

Richard, This is beyond tiring, but I will try this one more time.

Craig,

I maybe should have added a few smilies more, but that post was humour. ;)

craig, if you had to guess do you think the A7-900 would measure as clean as say the PB13 Ultra (and not like the Axiom EP600)?

[tests the same as ilkka's or avtalk]

craig, if you had to guess do you think the A7-900 would measure as clean as say the PB13 Ultra (and not like the Axiom EP600)?

[tests the same as ilkka's or avtalk]

The A7-900 delivers about 114 dB @ 20 Hz "clean" ... The Ultra, in Ilkka's tests, delivers about 108 dB "clean".

Basically, the Ultra is about 6 dB "lower" than the A7-900 ... when you consider one is a single (but longer throw) 13 inch vs. an 18 inch design, there is no big surprise here.

The A7-900 delivers about 114 dB @ 20 Hz "clean" ... The Ultra, in Ilkka's tests, delivers about 108 dB "clean".

Basically, the Ultra is about 6 dB "lower" than the A7-900 ... when you consider one is a single (but longer throw) 13 inch vs. an 18 inch design, there is no big surprise here.

have you ever measured the Axioms? Do you consider the Axioms clean? (both audibly and in measurements)

The A7-900 delivers about 114 dB @ 20 Hz "clean" ... The Ultra, in Ilkka's tests, delivers about 108 dB "clean".

Basically, the Ultra is about 6 dB "lower" than the A7-900 ... when you consider one is a single (but longer throw) 13 inch vs. an 18 inch design, there is no big surprise here.

Craig, sorry to point out what you obviously know, but the A7-900 isn't just an 18" design, but is a dual 18" design.

have you ever measured the Axioms? Do you consider the Axioms clean? (both audibly and in measurements)

I saw quite a different picture from the Axiom subs I had here than has been shown elsewhere. When we had a subwoofer shootout here 2 years ago, some very experienced subwoofer guys, including Jakeman and Bossobass, heard an EP-500 driven very hard without a hint of audible distortion.

You can also see reviews of it on Audioholics, and several other review sites, if you visit the Axiom website ... www.axiomaudio.com

I will show the same graph for the EP-350 series 3 that I did for the eD sub.

Craig, sorry to point out what you obviously know, but the A7-900 isn't just an 18" design, but is a dual 18" design.

This is true. I was even THINKING dual when I typed that. It must be getting late. Or I am getting old ... :D

craig, of all the subs (with a single 15" woofer or less) that you have heard, which couple would you say have the greatest "impact" in the mid-bass range? do any of them have the "kick" that one typically finds in the pro-audio stuff?

i was initially considering purchasing some mains that had large, lightweight, efficient, drivers that could really punch in the mid-bass, but after reading about the current generation of subs (your extensive testing and thoughtful commentary included), i'm wondering if a sub might actually produce impactful mid-bass just fine.

your thoughts/perspective would be greatly appreciated.

craig, of all the subs (with a single 15" woofer or less) that you have heard, which couple would you say have the greatest "impact" in the mid-bass range? do any of them have the "kick" that one typically finds in the pro-audio stuff?

i was initially considering purchasing some mains that had large, lightweight, efficient, drivers that could really punch in the mid-bass, but after reading about the current generation of subs (your extensive testing and thoughtful commentary included), i'm wondering if a sub might actually produce impactful mid-bass just fine.

your thoughts/perspective would be greatly appreciated.

The new Ultra probably comes closest so far ... but nothing compares in the mid bass like A-Line's (my brother's pro audio company) 15 inch ice-powered sub. Think of the Hsu MBM-12 on steroids.

I saw quite a different picture from the Axiom subs I had here than has been shown elsewhere. When we had a subwoofer shootout here 2 years ago, some very experienced subwoofer guys, including Jakeman and Bossobass, heard an EP-500 driven very hard without a hint of audible distortion.

You can also see reviews of it on Audioholics, and several other review sites, if you visit the Axiom website ... www.axiomaudio.com

I will show the same graph for the EP-350 series 3 that I did for the eD sub.

exactly, I bought my EP500 because of those revews you mentioned.

I was just trying to figure out why a sub that have had so many good reviews measure poorly.

exactly, I bought my EP500 because of those revews you mentioned.

I was just trying to figure out why a sub that have had so many good reviews measure poorly.

Here is something you don't need me or anyone else to answer for you ... when you crank up YOUR EP-500, does it distort, or does it sound great ?

The new Ultra probably comes closest so far ...


thanks! that's where all my research was pointing, but i wanted to hear your perspective.


but nothing compares in the mid bass like A-Line's (my brother's pro audio company) 15 inch ice-powered sub. Think of the Hsu MBM-12 on steroids.

got a link to it?

craig, of all the subs (with a single 15" woofer or less) that you have heard, which couple would you say have the greatest "impact" in the mid-bass range? do any of them have the "kick" that one typically finds in the pro-audio stuff?

i was initially considering purchasing some mains that had large, lightweight, efficient, drivers that could really punch in the mid-bass, but after reading about the current generation of subs (your extensive testing and thoughtful commentary included), i'm wondering if a sub might actually produce impactful mid-bass just fine.

your thoughts/perspective would be greatly appreciated.

LTD02, the heavy hitter in the midbass sub department is probably the JTR Growler. It does require a separate amp, however. It is capable of 133db output.:eek: Check it out:

http://www.jtrspeakers.com/growler.html

Here is something you don't need me or anyone else to answer for you ... when you crank up YOUR EP-500, does it distort, or does it sound great ?

it sounds fine to me ...

but it leads me to wonder if the other subs that measured better are that much better :)

thanks! that's where all my research was pointing, but i wanted to hear your perspective.

got a link to it?

Here is the specs page ... these guys are all powered. link to A-Line subs (http://www.mutualgravity.com/dld/vybwpg/SubARRAY_EZAL.pdf)

Craig, sorry to point out what you obviously know, but the A7-900 isn't just an 18" design, but is a dual 18" design.


Yes, but that makes the Ultra look even better output wise. If the dual 18 is only pulling 6db @ 20Hz more. Of course, that is the equivalent of two Ultras, but damn good for one 13.5 vs. two 18s.

Yes, but that makes the Ultra look even better output wise. If the dual 18 is only pulling 6db @ 20Hz more, that is the equivalent of two Ultras, but damn good for on 13.5 vs. two 18s.

It makes the little 13Ultra driver seem amazing.