Yes, but that makes the Ultra look even better output wise. If the dual 18 is only pulling 6db @ 20Hz more. Of course, that is the equivalent of two Ultras, but damn good for one 13.5 vs. two 18s.

I believe the 18"s are quite underpowered.
If they had more power, I'm sure the gap would be larger. :)

It makes the little 13Ultra driver seem amazing.

Yes, a well engineered package as obviously it takes more than any one component for great results. SVS definitely did their homework.
Definitely a bargain at the price, especially when compared to my old Plus/2 and Ultra/2s (which I sold long ago).

I believe the 18"s are quite underpowered.
If they had more power, I'm sure the gap would be larger. :)

Probably, but doubling the power (if they could take it) will only give you 3dbs more...

LTD02, the heavy hitter in the midbass sub department is probably the JTR Growler. It does require a separate amp, however. It is capable of 133db output.:eek: Check it out:

http://www.jtrspeakers.com/growler.html

the growler is in the style of pro-audio subwoofers, with drivers that tend to be lightweight, highly efficient, and trade off depth for SPL and punch in the mid-bass. believe it or not, 133dB is not remarkable in the category. that's just total overkill for me, but thanks for the suggestion.

Probably, but doubling the power (if they could take it) will only give you 3dbs more...

I had not put a lot of thought into it ... but looking things over, I wonder if it was clipping the "crap" out of the amp ... even 2000 watts does not tax the dual drivers.

I had not put a lot of thought into it ... but looking things over, I wonder if it was clipping the "crap" out of the amp ... even 2000 watts does not tax the dual drivers.

Interesting. Maybe a better package would be two boxes, half the size, each with a single 18" driver and each with a 1300 watt amp.

Interesting. Maybe a better package would be two boxes, half the size, each with a single 18" driver and each with a 1300 watt amp.

You might get a db or two more with that setup (more enclosure volume for each driver and 300 more watts), but it sure would be lighter and more manageable size wise.

Interesting. Maybe a better package would be two boxes, half the size, each with a single 18" driver and each with a 1300 watt amp.

maybe Chris would care to comment if there are plans for an A7-450 :D

i'll take two of those faster than a single A7-900.

You might get a db or two more with that setup, but it sure would be lighter and more manageable size wise.

Exactly. You would then have the option of stacking them or separating them to even out the response.

Exactly. You would then have the option of stacking them or separating them to even out the response.

especially if one doesn't need the output.

So looking at the chart (strictly for home theater) if I was looking between an Hsu VTF-3 MKIII and a, eD A5-350 could I assume the eD would be the better home theater choice? (basing this on the Hsu's 45 home theater points and the fact that the A2-300 scored 44 home theater points) Thanks for any input. And if I do go with the eD I'll have to convince the wife to get over the ugly box. :)

- Jon

especially if one doesn't need the output.

Somehow I doubt there would be a problem with insufficient output. :D

Will the eD A7-700 have more mid bass output than the PB13 Ultra? Right now I have 2 PB12-NSDs and Im looking to get more "punch" from my music.

Will the eD A7-700 have more mid bass output than the PB13 Ultra? Right now I have 2 PB12-NSDs and Im looking to get more "punch" from my music.

The ED will have more output everywhere, but that will not necessarily make it sound more "punchy". The overall in-room frequency response is what will determine if a sub has "punch".

No snub ... I never saw it. Sorry, man ... :o

Long time, no see.;)

Hey craig I know you get this all the time but I thought I would toss this your way. Are there any plans in the future to run av123's x-plosive sub through a testing session? I'm on the pre-order list for it and would love to see how it stacks up against all the other subs you've tested.

maybe Chris would care to comment if there are plans for an A7-450 :D

i'll take two of those faster than a single A7-900.

Yes and no.

It's something that could be done, however, it would likely be a bit different of a beast.

There are size/weight restrictions that go along with FedEx and the price of the sucker would go up due to the fact that it's shipping freight.

Once we aren't using FedEx for the shipping and I don't have to take size into consideration, some things might end up getting pretty...uhh...neat :)

The A7-900 itself is a bit of a compromise between size and performance. If it was possible to get a 25ish cube box out the door and into a house, something could exist that would end up with roughly the same 30Hz + performance but with an even more emphasized bottom end...like +6 dB from 20Hz and down. The downside to that enclosure is that it's HUGE and would make the current A7-900 look svelte by comparison.

For something like an A7-450, it'd be not too much smaller than it's big brother the A7-900. Granted, we would probably do single 1" walls which alone would remove about 80~100 pounds from the end product. Drop a driver and take off another 35 pounds.

It'd still be something in the 250~300 pound range when all is said and done depending on slot vs. round ports as that'll remove a giant piece of wood contained in the A7-900.

So I guess the short answer is yes, it's something I want to do, but it likely won't be something that is done in the relatively near future as we need to still play catch up on older orders :)

It would be interesting to compare ML's depth, descent and grotto with the craigsub's list.

Yes and no.

It's something that could be done, however, it would likely be a bit different of a beast.

There are size/weight restrictions that go along with FedEx and the price of the sucker would go up due to the fact that it's shipping freight.

Once we aren't using FedEx for the shipping and I don't have to take size into consideration, some things might end up getting pretty...uhh...neat :)

The A7-900 itself is a bit of a compromise between size and performance. If it was possible to get a 25ish cube box out the door and into a house, something could exist that would end up with roughly the same 30Hz + performance but with an even more emphasized bottom end...like +6 dB from 20Hz and down. The downside to that enclosure is that it's HUGE and would make the current A7-900 look svelte by comparison.

For something like an A7-450, it'd be not too much smaller than it's big brother the A7-900. Granted, we would probably do single 1" walls which alone would remove about 80~100 pounds from the end product. Drop a driver and take off another 35 pounds.

It'd still be something in the 250~300 pound range when all is said and done depending on slot vs. round ports as that'll remove a giant piece of wood contained in the A7-900.

So I guess the short answer is yes, it's something I want to do, but it likely won't be something that is done in the relatively near future as we need to still play catch up on older orders :)

thanks Chris.

just to confirm, what's the f3 of the A7-900? ... I'd consider multiples of the single lower models if only they were tuned a bit lower. (15-16 seems to be the median between what's necessary and what's really low)

Just remember, eD will build you whatever you want, and really its not THAT much more expensive is it? Tunings just the matter of a little bigger box or more port. Tell them what you are looking for, have them throw ya a price, shrug.

really?

Chris, not to throw this thread OT ...

but can you email/pm me if this is possible?

requirements:
same SQ as your A7-900
I need a ported 18"/15"er tuned to 15-16hz ground plane or anechoic ... I'll take two :)

Any word on the Epik's? Or did I miss that somewhere in the thread?

Any word on the Epik's? Or did I miss that somewhere in the thread?

We are waiting for Chad to get back to us about getting several subwoofers for review purposes. He has promised a few times to get with me in this regard, but no word from him as of yet.

Maybe sometime soon ... :)

Craig,
Since the ED is that good are you ever going to buy another for your dedicated theater as well as the man room, or too big for it?

Craig,
Since the ED is that good are you ever going to buy another for your dedicated theater as well as the man room, or too big for it?

Too big? Heck, upholster it and you've got a nice loveseat...with built-in massage! :D

Craig

Did you ever find out if Legacy audio had updated the Lf Extreme?
I know they said they would have a new 15" sometime soon. That was 4 months ago. I would like to see a review on one:D
Thanks,
Ryan

Good morning, many of you know that I have been dealing with a familty situation over the past 3 weeks: My little sister's health issues.

She has been in a coma since 10-11, and she passed away Thursday morning, October 25.

The time I have spent here lately has been a diversion, and a much needed one, on occasion.

She was the sweetest girl on the planet, and I will miss her fiercely. We are 15 months to the day apart in age, and had a special relationship. Many people thought we were twins (much to her chagrin, of course).

While this is a very sad time, it is also good to know she is at peace. There were some very difficult personal issues she had to face, and a lot of pain to endure.

Rest well, sis, you will always be in my thoughts.

This thread will get started again in November.

Craig,

I am sure I reflect the sentiments of all the Forum subscribers in wishing you and your family our deepest sympathies during this difficult time. Dealing with family tragedies and illnesses are among the hardest burdens to bear, but you are right to be comforted by the knowledge that she is now at peace and in a better place.

Craig

My condolences to you and your family

i lost my younger brother a year ago, so i know what you're going thru

you will be in my prayers

brad

2 Cor 5:8

I also wanted to send a big THANK YOU ... to everyone who has sent a private message or posted here condolences.

Someone mentioned (either here or another thread) about events like this, and the response by people to these events, that we *are* a community.

This is very true.

You guys (and ladies) rock. :)

Grace and peace to you Craig and to all your extended family.

-Ross

same from here Craig. From my family to yours, have peace.

HOW TRUE this is!!!!
I think it's important to remember, that even though craig and the gang may feel that X sub is 20% better than Y sub, that most people wouldn't even know the difference if you told them what to listen for. It's just great that there are so many options on the market.

Craig

My condolences to you and your family!

So sorry for your loss, Craig. Our thoughts are with you and your family.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

The loss of a loved one is always a very difficult time and my thoughts and condolences go out to you and your family, Craig.

Best regards to you and your family, Craig.

There are so few things in this world that one can even remotely compare to the loss of a sibling/family member....

peace be with you and your entire family.

My condolences to you and your family Craig.

Craig,

I'm new here and have read MANY of the posts so far on this thread. You sound like an awesome person and I'm very sorry to hear of your loss.

May your sister rest in peace and may you and your family be comforted at this time.

In my thoughts and prayers.

Gary

I'm so sorry for your loss.

Craig,
I know how hard it must be. I lost my brother 5 years ago on th 21st of this month and sometimes it still doesn't seem real. He was only 24. I have 9 brothers and 2 sisters and he was the youngest.
May The Almighty GOD Bless and comfort you and your family.
I will pray for you and the family.

Ryan

Craig, I am sorry for your family's loss.


Bruno

so two PB13U will match the output of a single A7-900?
BTW, how much distortion is the A7-900 producing when playing a 114dB 20Hz sine wave? And at 115.48dB?

Since I have been shopping for a sub I have spent a lot of time on the subwoofer site over the last month or two and I have enjoyed reading your posts on subs. I would like to offer my condolences to you and your family.

Mike

Craig, I'm sorry for your loss and wish you and yours peace and comfort.

Craig,

Is there a charity that people can make a donation in her name to? I'm sure several people would like to thank you for helping us with all your work. You could post the charity and her name, or just give us a paypal account to drop some money into. The paypal account drop off could consolidate the money, but it will add more overhead for you.

Good morning, many of you know that I have been dealing with a familty situation over the past 3 weeks: My little sister's health issues.

She has been in a coma since 10-11, and she passed away Thursday morning, October 25.

The time I have spent here lately has been a diversion, and a much needed one, on occasion.

She was the sweetest girl on the planet, and I will miss her fiercely. We are 15 months to the day apart in age, and had a special relationship. Many people thought we were twins (much to her chagrin, of course).

While this is a very sad time, it is also good to know she is at peace. There were some very difficult personal issues she had to face, and a lot of pain to endure.

Rest well, sis, you will always be in my thoughts.

This thread will get started again in November.
Craig,
I find no words to express and all day I kept thinking how I should respond. What do you say to someone who has lost someone very near and dear to their heart? Sometimes, words just don't do it. So I feel inadequate. I pray that the words in this silent night song (http://smokeys-trail.com/9-11-01.html) will comfort you. Scroll down to the download area where you can download this song Silent Night 9-11. This song affected me deeply in the wake of the tragedy of 9-11 that tore hearts of many around the globe. May you and your family be comforted Craig. Your sister is in a better place.

Craig, our thoughts are with you and your family.

Craig - been a fan for a while now. My condolences to you and your family.

Craig, another fan of your posts on AVS. My sincere condolences to you & your family.

Craig,
I find no words to express and all day I kept thinking how I should respond. What do you say to someone who has lost someone very near and dear to their heart? Sometimes, words just don't do it. So I feel inadequate. I pray that the words in this silent night song (http://smokeys-trail.com/9-11-01.html) will comfort you. Scroll down to the download area where you can download this song Silent Night 9-11. This song affected me deeply in the wake of the tragedy of 9-11 that tore hearts of many around the globe. May you and your family be comforted Craig. Your sister is in a better place.

still makes me cry after 6 years

lost a few neighbors that day

Good morning all ... some may understand this, and some may not have heard of this series. For the 2nd time, I am reading the entire "Left Behind" series books. They are quite the inspiring read, for sure.

Jai, thank you for that wonderful link, over the past 3 weeks, my primary prayer is that she gets welcomed into heaven. As this is not the "place" for my specifics in this regard, I will just say it has been through much prayer and reading of the New Testament that I am finding strength.

It is incredible, how something one takes for granted: in this case a sibling, becomes so all encompassing when she is gone.

I have been mourning for about 10 days now, having been told this was inevitable.

My parents are home to Pennsylvania, and are sounding somewhat better, and we as a family will be spending much time together this week.

Thank you all, again, for the kind words. Between open forums posts and PM's, there are too many to thank individually.

Back to subwoofer stuff ... which I mentioned earlier was a nice diversion ... I will be placing the Trinity into our high end theater sometime in the next few days, and retesting it with the new driver.

Yes, pics of the driver and "guts" were taken.

And I have the A5-350 ordered from eD, and am waiting for the MFW-15 and Axiom EP-350 Series 3.

Also ... SVS has upgraded the PB12-NSD, and I plan on swapping the amp on my unit for a new amp, and retesting it.

We are entering cold weather season, and these tests are fun.

Here is the driver swap out in the Trinity:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2116.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2118.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2119.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2120.jpg

uhoh..Craig's advertising for paramount again...:p:p

Craig, the left behind series books are awesome. I have all of them but haven't gotten through them all. They sure make ya think, huh?

Anyway, glad to see you back on the forums.

I made it through the first 8 or 9 in 6 months then got burnt out and never finished them.

Craig, do you still plan to retest the HSU HO?

By the way, sorry about your loss, losing a family member is always tough.

^^^^^^^^^^^

Good example of what PMs are for. :rolleyes:

Sorry you took exception to it. Deleted it.

Sorry you took exception to it. Deleted it.

I only took exception due to the degree to which it was completely and entirely off-topic (I mean, not relevant to anything on this entire site, which is pretty amazing given its scope). As I said, PMs work great for that one-to-one sort of stuff.

I only took exception due to the degree to which it was completely and entirely off-topic (I mean, not relevant to anything on this entire site, which is pretty amazing given its scope). As I said, PMs work great for that one-to-one sort of stuff.
In that case, all personal things should be kept personal and discussed only over PM. When someone suffers a loss, people want to share their pain and try and comfort them publicly. I disagree that it was entirely off-topic if you have been reading the past few posts. Criag mentioned about the Left behind series book. I pointed to a book that was very relevant to comfort someone who has suffered great loss. I don't want to argue. Let's just leave it at that.

In that case, all personal things should be kept personal and discussed only over PM.

I agree. :)

I agree. :)
Peace :)

Nitpicking. Now I can't find that book link.:mad: :confused: :rolleyes: :)

Nitpicking. Now I can't find that book link.:mad: :confused: :rolleyes: :)

Here it is (http://www.90minutesinheaven.com/). The introductory sound is annoying and the video and apparently marketing type of web-site is not that great, but I have read the book and my opinion is that it is worth a read.

Here it is (http://www.90minutesinheaven.com/). The introductory sound is annoying and the video and apparently marketing type of web-site is not that great, but I have read the book and my opinion is that it is worth a read.
Let me put it this way. Someone who smokes may consider giving up the habit appreciating what a great gift it is just to have a normal life (to walk, talk, breathe easily, sleep like a baby, be happy and just be a normal human being).

i'm sure many of you know that epik has a sealed 12" (15" cube) super high-power sub in development mentioned in "news" on their site. if it prices less than $1k, this could quickly become their number one seller. so if it's not too late to ask/beg to get that one included along with the conquest 'obscenity'* in the next shootout, there would surely be enormous interest in seeing the results.




* ob·scene (ŏb-sēn', əb-)
adj.
Offensive to accepted standards of decency or modesty.
So large in amount as to be objectionable or outrageous.

i'm sure many of you know that epik has a sealed 12" (15" cube) super high-power sub in development mentioned in "news" on their site. if it prices less than $1k, this could quickly become their number one seller. so if it's not too late to ask/beg to get that one included along with the conquest 'obscenity'* in the next shootout, there would surely be enormous interest in seeing the results.




* ob·scene (ŏb-sēn', əb-)
adj.
Offensive to accepted standards of decency or modesty.
So large in amount as to be objectionable or outrageous.

I am waiting for Chad to get back to me in regards to which units he wants tested. So far, even though he has said on many occasions that "I will email you the info soon", I have heard nothing.

This is not a value judgement ... there are several possible reasons, including:

1. He just plain forgot
2. He had decided not to participate by putting his products into comparison with the subs I have here.
3. He does not like the review process.
4. He is too busy filling out orders.

"2" does not seem likely ... while "4" would be my guess. :)

Can anybody tell me how much performance difference between the F113 and the F112.
Is it 2-3 db max output or is it closer 4-5 db.
Also how much louder does it play below 25hz basically does it move a lot more air down low.
Thanks guys,
Gabor

I am waiting for Chad to get back to me in regards to which units he wants tested. So far, even though he has said on many occasions that "I will email you the info soon", I have heard nothing.

This is not a value judgement ... there are several possible reasons, including:

1. He just plain forgot
2. He had decided not to participate by putting his products into comparison with the subs I have here.
3. He does not like the review process.
4. He is too busy filling out orders.

"2" does not seem likely ... while "4" would be my guess. :)

weren't you one of the first to order a conquest like well over a year ago ?

weren't you one of the first to order a conquest like well over a year ago ?

One could not actually order anything a year ago, but last winter Chad and I talked about his pending business plan to enter the completed subwoofer world instead of the DIY market.

We agreed at that time that I would purchase several review samples.

Chad has not been around much lately, which tells me he is pretty busy.

Guess wait and see is the agenda.

And did you notice the Trinity Pics I posted yesterday ? :)

as far as filling orders, why one wouldn't give Craig a little priority is beyond me, people are buying subs right now based soley on his reviews

perhaps Chad is concerned that his Conquest unit can't hold up to the big ED

Here is the driver swap out in the Trinity:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2116.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2118.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2119.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2120.jpg


awesome. subs have evolved so much across the past decade. it's amazing.

Maybe ppl are buying Epik subs without his reviews and he's having to work 24-7 to keep up? He may not be able to keep up onces his subs are reviewed????? My first priority would be get the subs out. But I guess if Craigsub is buying them I dunno why? That would be a sale. I don't think if a single 18" couldn't keep up with a dual 18" would be a problem with why which is better?. Some ppl might rather have the "small" Conquest. ED 400lbs is alot to move. Dunno but I would like to see specs also.

no doubt that a single 18" should generally not be considered in the same class as dual 18's

however, when you make certain claims as a manufacturer.......

"Nothing on the planet can do what the Conquest can do"
"the best low bass performance that you can buy. Period"
"output beyond the realm of any subwoofer that we are aware of, regardless of cost"

well he has that clause "that we are aware of" which saves himself regardless of how much output the a7-900 or any other subwoofer has.. He can always say he wasnt aware of that subwoofer. Given i've got a conquest sitting in my living room i think it will give the eD a run for its money at 20hz (within 3db i'd bet). We'll just have to wait and see i guess. So far i havent even pushed it at 20hz (well except playing WOTW), as I am not experienced enough to know what is allowable and what isn't (plus my ratshak meter isn't very accurate at 20hz). Given this sub was something like 3x what my original budget was, i can't afford to blow it up. I blew quite a few car audio subs years ago and it was a painful and expensive experience to say the least.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2120.jpg


awesome. subs have evolved so much across the past decade. it's amazing.

yup, that's why i'm in the market for some new LFE subs

i'm sure 10 years from now they will be even better

i can't complain though, i got all my subs at or way below cost starting way back in 97

so much good stuff to pick from these days :D:D:D

(pm sent,Craig)

Hello forum friends,

Quote :Given i've got a conquest sitting in my living room i think it will give the eD a run for its money at 20hz (within 3db i'd bet). We'll just have to wait and see i guess.

I recently ordered a A7-900 and a Conquest on Friday. They should all be here within a month. I plan on inviting some of my forum friends that live near by to come and give their opinion. Santa came early this year at the rmlowz residence. That's all I wanted for Christmas was two more subs.

Take Care,

rmlowz

In that case, all personal things should be kept personal and discussed only over PM. When someone suffers a loss, people want to share their pain and try and comfort them publicly. I disagree that it was entirely off-topic if you have been reading the past few posts. Criag mentioned about the Left behind series book. I pointed to a book that was very relevant to comfort someone who has suffered great loss. I don't want to argue. Let's just leave it at that.
Agreed. Just because someone doesn't believe what others do doesn't mean said person should persecute those people for their beliefs. It's a free country and was very relevant in lieu of what was happening in Craig's life as this time. Craig has helped more people on this forum than probably anyone; let's cut him (and others who have befriended him) some slack.

Anyway, we are now "back on topic."

Hello forum friends,

Quote :Given i've got a conquest sitting in my living room i think it will give the eD a run for its money at 20hz (within 3db i'd bet). We'll just have to wait and see i guess.

I recently ordered a A7-900 and a Conquest on Friday. They should all be here within a month. I plan on inviting some of my forum friends that live near by to come and give their opinion. Santa came early this year at the rmlowz residence. That's all I wanted for Christmas was two more subs.

Take Care,

rmlowzBe sure to start your own thread then...lot's of folks will be interested in that comparison.

craig,

pictures of trinity guts are cool, many thanks...

drivers seem to be substantial

just wondering tho, how does one "tune" a passive radiator to different frequencies?

Hello,

That is a good idea Ron

rmlowz

Hello,

That is a good idea Ron

rmlowz

I'll second Ron's idea. I am looking forward to reading about your GTG.

just wondering tho, how does one "tune" a passive radiator to different frequencies?By adding mass (weight).

Hello forum friends,

Quote :Given i've got a conquest sitting in my living room i think it will give the eD a run for its money at 20hz (within 3db i'd bet). We'll just have to wait and see i guess.

I recently ordered a A7-900 and a Conquest on Friday. They should all be here within a month. I plan on inviting some of my forum friends that live near by to come and give their opinion. Santa came early this year at the rmlowz residence. That's all I wanted for Christmas was two more subs.

Take Care,

rmlowz

My guess is you will have a difficult time telling them apart, especially if both are properly calibrated and EQ'ed.

The eD "may" have an edge in delivered power ... but it is also even more daunting to live with than the Conquest.

Either sub will likely tear a room apart.

And I am not being critical of Chad ... when I guessed he was too busy to worry about my project, I meant it. I bet he is not sleeping much ... :D

Hello Craig,

I expect them to be very close also as you said ED more delivered power. I am also expecting the Conquest to go lower. I really did not buy them to see which is best. I like having different subs, speakers, gear etc to play with it is just a hobby. I am sure I am going to enjoy both for many years. Both companies were a pleasure to order from and talk with.
rmlowz

Hello Craig,

I expect them to be very close also as you said ED more delivered power. I am also expecting the Conquest to go lower. I really did not buy them to see which is best. I like having different subs, speakers, gear etc to play with it is just a hobby. I am sure I am going to enjoy both for many years. Both companies were a pleasure to order from and talk with.
rmlowz

You may not have thought about this when you typed the post above, but it made me chuckle. Look at my by-line under "craigsub".

You are going to have a BLAST with those 2 beasts.

You have to post pics of them next to each other, too.

Question for you ... how many friends do you have coming over to help carry in the eD ?

Hello Craig,

LOL I like this hobby also! I did not notice that at the time of typing. I have three guys from work coming over when the freight Co. calls. I need to get it into the front door then on a piano dolly rolled into the theater room. I will post picks when they get here.

rmlowz

Hello forum friends,

Quote :Given i've got a conquest sitting in my living room i think it will give the eD a run for its money at 20hz (within 3db i'd bet). We'll just have to wait and see i guess.

I recently ordered a A7-900 and a Conquest on Friday. They should all be here within a month. I plan on inviting some of my forum friends that live near by to come and give their opinion. Santa came early this year at the rmlowz residence. That's all I wanted for Christmas was two more subs.

Take Care,

rmlowz

I will furnish the Marguritas!

Hello,

Tobester you were the first one I was going to call.

rmlowz

Here is the scoring summary with the Home Theater score and Music score, respectively shown as (HT-M).

Prices and whether the items are available Internet Direct or from a store are now included. Keep in mind that ID pricing will usually be firm, or slightly discounted, where some ID products will see substantial discounts. BM = Brick and Mortar. ID = Internet Direct. ID/SI = shipping included.

Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2000 shipped ID): 116 points (63-53)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48) * see below
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 97 points (54-43)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Acculine A-sub ($289 ID/SI): 85 points (provisional, currently out of production) (40-45)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)
Rocket Tyke: 60 points (If you care, PM me ... :))

Pending subwoofers ...

AV123 BMF ... Not sure of date
AV123 MFW-15 ... Not sure of date
Epik Valor, Castle and Conquest ... Not sure of date

Notes

*: The Creative Sounds project totalled $1230 for 2 drivers, Behirnger EP-2500 Amp, and EQ. In addition to the $1230, one can either build an enclosure, or have one built for appx. $400. I estimate that a more expensive and powerful amplifier will add 2-4 points to this design.
Craig,
It's been a long time since I saw your rankings and was surprised to see 3 subs above the f113. I have not heard any of the top 3 but to be better than the f113, they must be amazing pieces. I am happy to see ported subs at the top of the list as I had always felt there was a bias towards sealed subs. Now I see clearly not :).
I was wondering if you happen to have "peak hold charts" for the top 5? I am thinking something similar to what you have for the HSU/SVS for WOTW. It is buried somewhere in this thread.
It would be interesting to see how the top 5 stack up against each other with peak hold charts for WOTW/FOTP.
-Jai

pm craig

pm craig
Because of religious content like "sealed vs ported" :rolleyes:

Jai, I think he means he sent me a PM ... I have a bunch of the WOTW graphs ... I will see if I can get them put together.

SB - I just checked, and no PM from you is in my Inbox.

Jai, I think he means he sent me a PM ... I have a bunch of the WOTW graphs ... I will see if I can get them put together.

SB - I just checked, and no PM from you is in my Inbox.

Craig,
If you can find those charts that would be great. If not, no worries.
Just take it easy.
Take care,
-Jai

I am happy to see ported subs at the top of the list as I had always felt there was a bias towards sealed subs. Now I see clearly not .

This just shows that craig does not hold bias towards sealed subs. He goes by what he hears, not what he sees. Plenty of others on this forums still do hold a bias towards sealed subs, and many of them had a field day when craig scored the huge eD beast 3 points above the jl f113 subwoofer. .... 3 points above in music is what i meant

Jai, I think he means he sent me a PM ... I have a bunch of the WOTW graphs ... I will see if I can get them put together.

SB - I just checked, and no PM from you is in my Inbox.

I think SB is a good guy and I read into his post too quickly. My fault. It just amazed me that threads like this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=928544)with suggestive language is so well accepted as hilarious yet demeaning and a very subtle post with religious connotation is frowned at. Very sad :o

This just shows that craig does not hold bias towards sealed subs. He goes by what he hears, not what he sees. Plenty of others on this forums still do hold a bias towards sealed subs, and many of them had a field day when craig scored the huge eD beast 3 points above the jl f113 subwoofer.

I agree. It is time Craig built one of his own PR based subs with an LMS-5400 and dual PRs and check them out :D. Hint hint :D:D. I know those LMS-5400s have skyrocketed in price, but maybe TC will make an exception? I would love to see one of those in Craig's scale!
Craig, Don't expect me to ship you one of my dear subs. They are too precious to part with :). If it was a few months ago, that would be a different story. Now I am too attached. ;)

I agree. It is time Craig built one of his own PR based subs with an LMS-5400 and dual PRs and check them out :D. Hint hint :D:D. I know those LMS-5400s have skyrocketed in price, but maybe TC will make an exception? I would love to see one of those in Craig's scale!
Craig, Don't expect me to ship you one of my dear subs. They are too precious to part with :). If it was a few months ago, that would be a different story. Now I am too attached. ;)

Have they started selling them again ? I looked at the Audio Pulse site, and could not find any pricing.

Have they started selling them again ? I looked at the Audio Pulse site, and could not find any pricing.
The MSRP is $2999 :o

The MSRP is $2999 :o

I see they are working on the high value, great bang for the buck model ... I guess the PR's are another $1200 for the pair ? :eek:

The MSRP is $2999 :o

Insane. I don't remember where, but I thought one could buy one for $1500/piece. No?

`SB',me??

yeah too bad the LMS is so damn expensive (well if they were even available). Even though it may be the best sub you could at one point find in the consumer world it doesn't mean much if it costs 3k by itself.. It certainly won't contribute to the posts stating "i could make a better DIY sub than that retail sub for 1/2 the price" which seem to pop up in absolutely every thread which involves a decent commercial subwoofer (although now that i think about it, i can seem someone making that claim against a gotham given its msrp..)

Because of religious content like "sealed vs ported" :rolleyes:nope:rolleyes:

`SB',me??

Yes, SB you

as far as filling orders, why one wouldn't give Craig a little priority is beyond me, people are buying subs right now based soley on his reviews

perhaps Chad is concerned that his Conquest unit can't hold up to the big ED

Wow - that's quite an assumption dl. Personally, if the thing can even come close, it's a win due to size.

And no offense to Craig, I really enjoy his threads and the time and effort he takes in everything audio, but to say that people are buying subs based "SOLEY" on his reviews I think is absurd.

I think people who look and research here think for themselves. I'm sure Craig's numbers and graphs and opinions are factored in, but my bet (and I could be going out on a limb here) is that people buy speakers, subs, amps, prepros, receivers, etc. based on:

1. Their budget
2. Their listening habits
3. Their listening tastes
4. Mode of delivery (some prefer B&M, some ID, some just he best price)
5. Cosmetics
.
.
.
.
9999999999999. What OTHER people think.

I would hope you would be one of us, but maybe you prefer to have Craig and others do the thinking for you?

As for Chad supplying subs to Craig - I dont know anything about the details, but I'm pretty sure that if Craig had ordered one and gave his credit card number and payed what everyone else is paying for them including the shipping, he'd have one by now (or one of each Epik offering - knowing Craig, he'd want to demo them all :) ).

Personally, I'm waffling between a Tower and a HO, I still think the HO with Turbo is a better fit for my room. However, once I get shipping prices from both companies, I'll make my decision. What Craig says about either (and he has said a lot about the HO, nothing about the Tower as he can't - he hasn't heard one yet) will make for interesting reading, but it won't affect my final decision. I can figure out on my own what the Tower can do for the most part (though I stlil want to see some graphs).

One could not actually order anything a year ago, but last winter Chad and I talked about his pending business plan to enter the completed subwoofer world instead of the DIY market.

We agreed at that time that I would purchase several review samples.

Chad has not been around much lately, which tells me he is pretty busy.

Guess wait and see is the agenda.

And did you notice the Trinity Pics I posted yesterday ? :)

oh yeah, thanks craig :D:D

Well in my case all i had to go by was chad's repuation, tom nousaines tests, and pictures, and i came to the conclusion that the conquest must be the absolute best sub under $2k that i could fit in my future living room (aesthetically its way too big for my current room).
I doubt what other people think is that far down anyones list though who plans on buying ID
That being said, i doubt very many people buy a sub solely because someone else said it was really good (even if it were craigsub).
Buying something (or renting) based on other peoples opinions can really get you at the movie rental store. A few months ago I asked an attendant if "this" movie (pointing at some movie i picked out) was any good and of course they said something like "oh yeah i saw that a few weeks ago and i loved it, it was hilarous.. blah blah"
then you take it home to find its the stupidest f######g movie you ever saw (lol).
With speakers/subs though unless there is a way for me to hear it in person all i can go by is what others say.

ps, you forgot the most important rule of all: does the wife approve.. then comes budget , performance specs, etc etc

ps, you forgot the most important rule of all: does the wife approve.. then comes budget , performance specs, etc etc

What, you don't think she'd approve of one of these (http://s16v.com/pix/2007/10-28/IMG_0917_resize.JPG)in your living room? :D

What, you don't think she'd approve of one of these (http://s16v.com/pix/2007/10-28/IMG_0917_resize.JPG)in your living room? :D


Well that depends what the veneer looks like :p. If you can get it to match my swans i'll pull a Ron Temple and get two of them just because even numbers are better.:D

ps, you forgot the most important rule of all: does the wife approve.. then comes budget , performance specs, etc etc

Yep - in my rant, I forgot all about her. You're absolutely correct. Problem for me is my wife doesn't like subwoofers period, they make her 'queasy'. Imagine me hauling a Conquest into the family room - think I could pass it off as a new fort for my son (maybe Chad could make a special grill that just covers the driver, leaving the ports exposed, I could tell her it was a tunnel system :D )

By the way BTP, what are the dimensions for that box and what is going into it?

Yep - in my rant, I forgot all about her. You're absolutely correct. Problem for me is my wife doesn't like subwoofers period, they make her 'queasy'. Imagine me hauling a Conquest into the family room - think I could pass it off as a new fort for my son (maybe Chad could make a special grill that just covers the driver, leaving the ports exposed, I could tell her it was a tunnel system :D )

Haha, i know what you mean by that.. Well actually my wife likes subwoofers (most of the time) but my parents don't particularly care for them.. In fact i thought i might have to pick the sub up from the shipping carrier (because i wasn't planning on being home the day it was supposed to arrive) so i called my dad and asked him if he could come help me pick up some "furniture" that i bought.. He kept asking what kind of furniture and i just said it was a big heavy thing. I ended up not picking it up though and just taking the next day off from work and school.

My wife has been a good sport overall about it, although at times she says things like "are you sure you need a speaker that big? Isn't that like old technology and now they make them small but just as good?"
I have to explain to her that speakers aren't like tv monitors or computers.

I think people who look and research here think for themselves. I'm sure Craig's numbers and graphs and opinions are factored in, but my bet (and I could be going out on a limb here) is that people buy speakers, subs, amps, prepros, receivers, etc. based on:

1. Their budget
2. Their listening habits
3. Their listening tastes
4. Mode of delivery (some prefer B&M, some ID, some just he best price)
5. Cosmetics
.
.
.
.
9999999999999. What OTHER people think.


If everyone was like you that would be correct. However - I have been in retail sales for over 10 years dealing with the public and there is a very good reason we employ salespeople - and those salespeople quote third party sources including subjective opinions - because - from what I have seen - about 90% of the public makes their decisions like this.

1) See something they want or hear about something they want.
2) Ask other people's opinion.
3) Minor amount of research (primarily to validate 1&2).
4) What they can afford.

I'm just throwing this list together in 30 seconds but the bottom line is most peopole I have found want someone to validate what it is they already want to do - they make a quick emotional decision - they later justify their decision.

I think Craig has influenced a huge number of subwoofer decisions.

Kpt_Krunch, You are entitled to an opinion, of course. You are not, however, entitled to make things up. Your comment about how if I "Had paid what others pay, with a credit card" is pure nonsense, and made up. I rarely pay for something with a credit card, I pay with a check, especially when purchasing $4000 worth of subwoofers.

And I have offered to send a check to Chad for whatever he wants, in the way of price, to send out these review samples. I never tell anyone what they have to do for a price. Example: With SVS, I pay the full retail less 5% as a returning customer. With other companies, I will pay the latest "sale" price, or systems price. I lose some money with each review, but that is OK. This keeps the review process honest.

This may have eluded you (though I have posted this on several occasions), which is fine, but Chad wanted to consider which 3 or 4 subwoofers he wanted to send out. All I told him was to pick out the 3 or 4 subwoofers and tell me the total including shipping. He has not done so yet. Those are the facts, not something made up. I understand that Chad is rather busy. It's a new company, and he is likely learning the joys of dealing with employees.

Is that enough for you ? If not, let's take it to PM. ;)

Kpt_Krunch, You are entitled to an opinion, of course. You are not, however, entitled to make things up. Your comment about how if I "Had paid what others pay, with a credit card" is pure nonsense, and made up. I rarely pay for something with a credit card, I pay with a check, especially when purchasing $4000 worth of subwoofers.

And I have offered to send a check to Chad for whatever he wants, in the way of price, to send out these review samples. I never tell anyone what they have to do for a price. Example: With SVS, I pay the full retail less 5% as a returning customer. With other companies, I will pay the latest "sale" price, or systems price. I lose some money with each review, but that is OK. This keeps the review process honest.

This may have eluded you (though I have posted this on several occasions), which is fine, but Chad wanted to consider which 3 or 4 subwoofers he wanted to send out. All I told him was to pick out the 3 or 4 subwoofers and tell me the total including shipping. He has not done so yet. Those are the facts, not something made up. I understand that Chad is rather busy. It's a new company, and he is likely learning the joys of dealing with employees.

Is that enough for you ? If not, let's take it to PM. ;)

Wow Craig - what exactly did you read in my post? Thanks for validating it though. I know what's going, I read the entire Epik thread. Here's what I said, other than the 'credit card' comment, tell me where I was wrong
please?

In response to DL's complaint that Chad hasn't sent you out a sub because he's (Chad) is not sure how they'll measure up:

"I'm pretty sure that if Craig had ordered one and gave his credit card number and payed what everyone else is paying for them including the shipping, he'd have one by now"

That's what I said. And I stand by it, except for the credit card part. I don't know how you conduct business, but I do now (you pay by check). I'm 100% sure that if you mailed a check to Chad today, you'd have a Conquest in a couple of weeks (presuming here it's a Conquest you order). Is that statement false? Are you saying that if you bought one he wouldn't send you one?

But like I said, you HAVEN'T sent a check yet, so you don't have a sub. That's all I was trying to point out to DL. There was no underlying motive. My bet is you think by my point "If you paid what everyone else paid including shipping" - I just wanted to make sure that DL was clear on what I was trying to say. No need to be so touchy, not everyone here is against you, I'm certainly not. As I said, I enjoy your threads and all the effort you put into

Wow Craig - what exactly did you read in my post? Thanks for validating it though. I know what's going, I read the entire Epik thread. Here's what I said, other than the 'credit card' comment, tell me where I was wrong
please?

In response to DL's complaint that Chad hasn't sent you out a sub because he's (Chad) is not sure how they'll measure up:

"I'm pretty sure that if Craig had ordered one and gave his credit card number and payed what everyone else is paying for them including the shipping, he'd have one by now"

That's what I said. And I stand by it, except for the credit card part. I don't know how you conduct business, but I do now (you pay by check). I'm 100% sure that if you mailed a check to Chad today, you'd have a Conquest in a couple of weeks (presuming here it's a Conquest you order). Is that statement false? Are you saying that if you bought one he wouldn't send you one?

But like I said, you HAVEN'T sent a check yet, so you don't have a sub. That's all I was trying to point out to DL. There was no underlying motive. My bet is you think by my point "If you paid what everyone else paid including shipping" - I just wanted to make sure that DL was clear on what I was trying to say. No need to be so touchy, not everyone here is against you, I'm certainly not. As I said, I enjoy your threads and all the effort you put into

I never said you were against me.

I don't think "DLF" was correct in stating that Chad is afraid that his subs "won't stack up" to the others I have here. On this point, we agree.

On your point about my sending a check, you are just plain wrong.

I have not been given a price, including shipping, for the purchase of 4 different subwoofers from Epik.

Chad has not even indicated which 4 subwoofers he wants to sell me.

I have told Chad several times that as soon as he tells me which subs he wants tested, and what the price will be for all 4 delivered is, I will send a check.

I am not looking at purchasing a Conquest, nor am I looking to purchase his entire line. I am looking to purchase 4 subwoofers from Epik.

Those 4 subs will be the ones which Chad wants tested.

Based on your premise, I need to read Chad's mind, guess which 4 it will be, then also what the shipping of all 4 will be, and send out a check based on that ? :confused:

I have made this statement on several occasions, and hopefully, this will be the last time I make it:

I am waiting for Chad to decide how he wants to proceed. I respect how busy he is, and have no issue with how long this is taking. When he is ready, he will contact me.

I really don't know how I can be more accomodating than this.

I'm going to have to side with Craig on this one.

I can only imagine how busy Chad is and how much he doesn't want to end up putting Craig on a list for people to get stuff, especially when it's 4 subwoofers being ordered.

He wanted to pick up an A5-350 in August and I told him to wait to get in on the list until we were more caught up and could deliver the product to him in a more timely fashion.

Craig finally e-mailed me and told me to process an order for him so that he could send a check and get in line since we aren't up to same day shipping still. I'm guessing there's either a check in the mailbox now or it'll be here tomorrow.

Craig has no problem paying for something as long as he knows how much to give you :) I would imagine that with as busy as it seems Chad is, it's a bit tricky trying to get a quote to someone for 4 drivers of your choice and then figure out how to ship them all out to him and get quotes there to get the best price and service available.

In other words, be patient. I'm sure Craig will have the 4 drivers from Epik one of these days, it just might take a while as it would seem Chad is insanely swamped which is never a bad thing.

I think the confusion is around whether Craig is just like us ( a hobbyist) or is now closer to being a professional reviewer where there is some negotiation on what is tested and when. If it's the former, then Craig can order any sub whenever and test whatever he pleases. Afterll, it's his $$$'s! :p

Just guessing here...but eD didn't anticipate the demand when they jumped into the HT market and they were an established company. First blush of orders and they still haven't caught up. Epik might want to control it's growth, keep it's supply chain solid and not get backordered. It looks like demand is pretty strong. What would happen if after a great review, orders piled up, shipments slowed down and they did have to start expanding sooner than planned. It's a tricky problem.

I think the confusion is around whether Craig is just like us ( a hobbyist) or is now closer to being a professional reviewer where there is some negotiation on what is tested and when. If it's the former, then Craig can order any sub whenever and test whatever he pleases. Afterll, it's his $$$'s! :p

very true....:o

I think the confusion is around whether Craig is just like us ( a hobbyist) or is now closer to being a professional reviewer where there is some negotiation on what is tested and when. If it's the former, then Craig can order any sub whenever and test whatever he pleases. Afterll, it's his $$$'s! :p

I understand the gist of your post ... A professional reviewer won't purchase the product in question. They get their stuff free, do a test, and either buy the review sample or send it back.

Once I have established a contact with a company's rep/owner, and we agree that he will be getting back to me when ready for this process, then it is out of respect for that rep/owner, and I think "the right thing to do", to wait until the company rep/owner contacts me to forward the check for payment.

On a side note, there will be an announcement later this week about a new venture into the audio world that I have been negotiating ... primarily in the world of room treatments.

It is still in the beginning stages, and I need to test the product out ... but hopefully, soon, I will be providing a product which will help subwoofers from any company to sound better.

The Caveat ... I need to test this product myself, in a couple of my own rooms ... but I did not want to "spring" this on people later.

craig,

Sounds like a grand opportunity for a AVS GTG. Subs and room treatments all in one.

On a side note, there will be an announcement later this week about a new venture into the audio world that I have been negotiating ... primarily in the world of room treatments.

It is still in the beginning stages, and I need to test the product out ... but hopefully, soon, I will be providing a product which will help subwoofers from any company to sound better.

The Caveat ... I need to test this product myself, in a couple of my own rooms ... but I did not want to "spring" this on people later.

Hi Craig. Not having any inside info about your new venture, it leaves me free to speculate that you are hooking up with MLS and AV123 on this. It should be a cool deal for everyone. Don't feel obliged to respond to confirm or deny. I understand that you may want to wait until some sort of official announcement is to be made.

Hi Craig. Not having any inside info about your new venture, it leaves me free to speculate that you are hooking up with MLS and AV123 on this. It should be a cool deal for everyone. Don't feel obliged to respond to confirm or deny. I understand that you may want to wait until some sort of official announcement is to be made.

It will be my company completely, with me paying for the entire process. Mark Schifter will be building some of the wood frames for some of the products, and he did introduce me to the idea.

He was asked for someone who met this criteria ...

1. A knowledge of subwoofers
2. An understanding of the problems inherent in most rooms
3. Someone "non-partisan", who was not tied up with any one brand
4. Someone who could fund the entire project without incurring debt. This will be an extremely "low cost" company - and one reason is there will be no debt load, no highly paid CEO ... none of that. Its purpose will be to help improve people's systems affordably. And I mean that, even if it does sound like ad copy ... :D

Anyway ... Mark said he had something to talk to me about at last month's GTG, and I was intrigued. It still has to survive testing here - but they did test it for me at RMAF with positive feedback from a lot of people. I was supposed to be at RMAF to check the stuff out for myself, but I think everyone knows what happened there. :(

On a side note, I had a long conversation with Ian Colquhoun from Axiom last week, and he is not only enthused about this venture, he wants some to test out there, too.

That's sounds like it could be a winning situation for us, the consumers. Best of luck! :)

I never said you were against me.

I don't think "DLF" was correct in stating that Chad is afraid that his subs "won't stack up" to the others I have here. On this point, we agree.

On your point about my sending a check, you are just plain wrong.

I have not been given a price, including shipping, for the purchase of 4 different subwoofers from Epik.

Chad has not even indicated which 4 subwoofers he wants to sell me.

I have told Chad several times that as soon as he tells me which subs he wants tested, and what the price will be for all 4 delivered is, I will send a check.

I am not looking at purchasing a Conquest, nor am I looking to purchase his entire line. I am looking to purchase 4 subwoofers from Epik.

Those 4 subs will be the ones which Chad wants tested.

Based on your premise, I need to read Chad's mind, guess which 4 it will be, then also what the shipping of all 4 will be, and send out a check based on that ? :confused:

I have made this statement on several occasions, and hopefully, this will be the last time I make it:

I am waiting for Chad to decide how he wants to proceed. I respect how busy he is, and have no issue with how long this is taking. When he is ready, he will contact me.

I really don't know how I can be more accomodating than this.

Well Craig, I do sincerely apologize for the misunderstanding here. I did not mean to insinuate anything. DL basically said that Chad is too scared to send you a sub, any sub, for fears of what you may find. I simply stated to DL using your name that if you had ordered 'a' sub from Chad and paid for it up front you would have it by now. That's it. In other words, Chad isn't scared, and you don't have a sub because you haven't bought one. All the rest is semantics. I did read the Epik thread, and I do know what is going on. DL doesn't, but he makes this accusation and now I'm being crucified for it. IMO - you should be going after DL for HIS statement. I simply stated facts. I did not say that you were waiting, as for all I know he just emailed you the list today, in which case you'd be ordering, not waiting. But how could I know that?

I do know that Chad hasn't sent you sub because you haven't purchased a sub. That's pretty obvious, even to a dummy like me. Too bad DL can't figure that one out for himself, I guess that's why he has to wait for for your reviews before he purchases anything :D

And no offense to Craig, I really enjoy his threads and the time and effort he takes in everything audio, but to say that people are buying subs based "SOLEY" on his reviews I think is absurd.
Oh he can and will take offense at anything that doesnt fall right in line with "the Subwoofer gosphel according to Craigsub". You forget 1 very important fact about most of the general public. They are ass-kissing morons so it wouldn't suprise me if they buy a sub Craig tells them too.

Kpt_Krunch, You are entitled to an opinion, of course. You are not, however, entitled to make things up.
Sorry Craig, he's entitled to say ANYTHING he wants to say. whether its right or worng. Just like you are entitled to point it out whether he is right or wrong. Dont be a hipocrit CS.

hey craig, any plans to go to a JL dealer and listen to a gotham ?

Well Craig, I do sincerely apologize for the misunderstanding here. I did not mean to insinuate anything. DL basically said that Chad is too scared to send you a sub, any sub, for fears of what you may find. I simply stated to DL using your name that if you had ordered 'a' sub from Chad and paid for it up front you would have it by now. That's it. In other words, Chad isn't scared, and you don't have a sub because you haven't bought one. All the rest is semantics. I did read the Epik thread, and I do know what is going on. DL doesn't, but he makes this accusation and now I'm being crucified for it. IMO - you should be going after DL for HIS statement. I simply stated facts. I did not say that you were waiting, as for all I know he just emailed you the list today, in which case you'd be ordering, not waiting. But how could I know that?

I do know that Chad hasn't sent you sub because you haven't purchased a sub. That's pretty obvious, even to a dummy like me. Too bad DL can't figure that one out for himself, I guess that's why he has to wait for for your reviews before he purchases anything :D

Just got off the phone with Chad, and we will have this wrapped up this week. He has decided on a Conquest, a Castle and a Valor to start ... and keeping an option open for another sub in a month or 2.

Crucified ? I would never crucify you ... I actually like you ... you have never gone sideways on me ... :D

Just got off the phone with Chad, and we will have this wrapped up this week. He has decided on a Conquest, a Castle and a Valor to start ... and keeping an option open for another sub in a month or 2.

Crucified ? I would never crucify you ... I actually like you ... you have never gone sideways on me ... :D


Sorry, crucified is a bit strong I guess. Nice to see you're getting some finally - looking forward to your comments on these down the road! Can't wait to see the pic of the Conquest beside the A9, talk about bookends :eek:

Oh he can and will take offense at anything that doesnt fall right in line with "the Subwoofer gosphel according to Craigsub". You forget 1 very important fact about most of the general public. They are ass-kissing morons so it wouldn't suprise me if they buy a sub Craig tells them too.


Sorry Craig, he's entitled to say ANYTHING he wants to say. whether its right or worng. Just like you are entitled to point it out whether he is right or wrong. Dont be a hipocrit CS.

CS? Is that like barn yard stuff? A$$-kissing morons? Talk about offensive. Do you talk that way to grown men face to face? I doubt it. Then why would you do it here? We can do without the name calling that is directed toward forum members.

Careful guys... keep the personal remarks off the board or a few of you will be going on holidays.

Kyser

hey craig, any plans to go to a JL dealer and listen to a gotham ?

The closest dealer to Erie with a Trinity was a 2 hour drive. I cannot Fathom how far it will be to audition a Gotham. :D

The closest dealer to Erie with a Trinity was a 2 hour drive. I cannot Fathom how far it will be to audition a Gotham. :D

I'd call that a little sub-par humor! With jokes like that, the laughs will be very low in frequency. :p

The closest dealer to Erie with a Trinity was a 2 hour drive. I cannot Fathom how far it will be to audition a Gotham. :D

I think that Manville mentioned something about having a few of those installed in Gotham City. Try Google Maps to locate the place :D

The closest dealer to Erie with a Trinity was a 2 hour drive. I cannot Fathom how far it will be to audition a Gotham. :D

:D:D

It will be my company completely, with me paying for the entire process. Mark Schifter will be building some of the wood frames for some of the products, and he did introduce me to the idea.

He was asked for someone who met this criteria ...

1. A knowledge of subwoofers
2. An understanding of the problems inherent in most rooms
3. Someone "non-partisan", who was not tied up with any one brand
4. Someone who could fund the entire project without incurring debt. This will be an extremely "low cost" company - and one reason is there will be no debt load, no highly paid CEO ... none of that. Its purpose will be to help improve people's systems affordably. And I mean that, even if it does sound like ad copy ... :D

Anyway ... Mark said he had something to talk to me about at last month's GTG, and I was intrigued. It still has to survive testing here - but they did test it for me at RMAF with positive feedback from a lot of people. I was supposed to be at RMAF to check the stuff out for myself, but I think everyone knows what happened there. :(

On a side note, I had a long conversation with Ian Colquhoun from Axiom last week, and he is not only enthused about this venture, he wants some to test out there, too.



This is a natural evolution of what you have been doing for so long and the most overlooked part of this "gear based" forum.... Great idea! I will be watching with interest Craig.

Paul

Once I have established a contact with a company's rep/owner, and we agree that he will be getting back to me when ready for this process, then it is out of respect for that rep/owner, and I think "the right thing to do", to wait until the company rep/owner contacts me to forward the check for payment.

On a side note, there will be an announcement later this week about a new venture into the audio world that I have been negotiating ... primarily in the world of room treatments.

It is still in the beginning stages, and I need to test the product out ... but hopefully, soon, I will be providing a product which will help subwoofers from any company to sound better.

The Caveat ... I need to test this product myself, in a couple of my own rooms ... but I did not want to "spring" this on people later.

INTERESTING!!

Quote:
Once I have established a contact with a company's rep/owner, and we agree that he will be getting back to me when ready for this process, then it is out of respect for that rep/owner, and I think "the right thing to do", to wait until the company rep/owner contacts me to forward the check for payment.

On a side note, there will be an announcement later this week about a new venture into the audio world that I have been negotiating ... primarily in the world of room treatments.

It is still in the beginning stages, and I need to test the product out ... but hopefully, soon, I will be providing a product which will help subwoofers from any company to sound better.

The Caveat ... I need to test this product myself, in a couple of my own rooms ... but I did not want to "spring" this on people later.
INTERESTING!!
__________________
I think it would be generally more useful if everyone new to these forums is reminded that they are constantly being marketed to and pitched by people who post their affiliations and many others who do not. This is all part of marketing and advertising and you, the consumer, are the targets.
Nothing wrong with this, just worth bearing in mind.

You are way off base. Craig said he pays what we pay for a sub. Craig is waiting on the total cost of the subwoofers. The only variable is the shipping since he is buying three subs at once. If you were buying three or four subs would you not expect a savings on the shipping with it being a combined shipment vs three single shipments.

mjg100, try the quote button it would make your posts much easier to read.
I'm pretty sure this:
I think it would be generally more useful if everyone new to these forums is reminded that they are constantly being marketed to and pitched by people who post their affiliations and many others who do not. This is all part of marketing and advertising and you, the consumer, are the targets.
Nothing wrong with this, just worth bearing in mind.
is coming from your mouth correct (i dont remember anyone else saying that).
If thats the case, shame on you. Craig has been posting here giving us valuable information for years (i've only been here for 5 months or so but i've read threads that date way back before that).
Certainly craig has not done all that work so he can sell a few room treatment items sometime in the future.

Guys ... While I appreciate the support, I think Tweeterex has that "disclaimer" in his signature, and does so as a general warning.

If nothing else, at least you know that I will let you know when the marketing begins ... :D

I don't have a whole lot to add to this thread other than to say Craig is doing what appears to be a thankless job and is doing it well.

He seems to be a genuinely awesome dude (anyone hanging out at av123 lately has seen a couple of prime examples of this) who, like many of us, loves sound and is fortunate enough to be able to evaluate a wide range of these pesky things we use to make sounds. Passing on his observations for us is very generous and appreciated by many who, like myself, may be lurking in the background. Despite the thankless environment he sometimes seem to face around here, he is indeed appreciated.

Just because we aren't as vocal doesn't mean we aren't out here seeing what you do, Craig. Not everyone questions your motives.

As a very happy A5-350 owner, I'll go back to lurking here and anticipating your views on that monster when you get ahold of it.

mjg100, try the quote button it would make your posts much easier to read.
I'm pretty sure this:

is coming from your mouth correct (i dont remember anyone else saying that).
If thats the case, shame on you. Craig has been posting here giving us valuable information for years (i've only been here for 5 months or so but i've read threads that date way back before that).
Certainly craig has not done all that work so he can sell a few room treatment items sometime in the future.

No. read a few posts above. I said this: "You are way off base. Craig said he pays what we pay for a sub. Craig is waiting on the total cost of the subwoofers. The only variable is the shipping since he is buying three subs at once. If you were buying three or four subs would you not expect a savings on the shipping with it being a combined shipment vs three single shipments."

When I hit the quote button it only picks up the last quote. Not all of the quotes. When I hit Multi quote it does not pick up any quote. How do you pick up all of the quotes in a post?

oh ok, i see the qoute now in tweeterex's signature. Sorry didnt mean to start up anything.

oh, and i have no idea how the multiquote button works (never tried it), i just manually copy and past what people said and wrap it in quote tags if i want to quote multiple people in a single post.

tweeterex, I mistook your sig for a response. Sorry.

How do you pick up all of the quotes in a post? I'm not 100% certain of this, so don't quote me (pun intended :rolleyes:). But, I believe The "Multi Quote" button is for quoting more than one post in your reply. I have found that if you wish to use quotes from more than one post, begin by clicking the "Multi Quote" button in the post you wish to quote first, then click the "Quote" button in that same post, and you'll get the standard "Reply to Thread" form with that post quoted. You may then click the return arrow to go back to the thread, find another post you wish to quote, click on the "Quote" button in that post, and that post will be added, as a quote, to your reply without erasing the first quote (You may do this multiple times). You can then reply to each quote individually in your reply.

I don't know how to quote a post that already has a quote and get both the quote and reply into your reply form, unless you manually copy and paste that post and manually add some quote tags (and a couple of bold tags), to get this.

Originally Posted by mwolfe38

mjg100, try the quote button it would make your posts much easier to read.
I'm pretty sure this:

is coming from your mouth correct (i dont remember anyone else saying that).
If thats the case, shame on you. Craig has been posting here giving us valuable information for years (i've only been here for 5 months or so but i've read threads that date way back before that).
Certainly craig has not done all that work so he can sell a few room treatment items sometime in the future.
No. read a few posts above. I said this: "You are way off base. Craig said he pays what we pay for a sub. Craig is waiting on the total cost of the subwoofers. The only variable is the shipping since he is buying three subs at once. If you were buying three or four subs would you not expect a savings on the shipping with it being a combined shipment vs three single shipments."

Thank you.

De nada. :)

Hi John,

I have both the HSU VTF-3.3 and SVS PB13-Ultra in house now and to my ears the new Ultra is more articulate than the 3.3, noticeably tighter and with less distortion while also being more dynamic. And the build quality is vastly superior, as it should be considering the price difference. SVS has really hit a major home run with this design! Craig's soon to be released listening updates on the Ultra should be interesting to say the least.

Now to find out what kind of magic Chad has cooked up with the new Epik subs...:D

Cheers,
Ross


How compare the Pb-13 Ultra to the 3.3 in maximum output in terms of sheer output?
Is the pb-13 much louder?Like 2 3.3 maybe?

How compare the Pb-13 Ultra to the 3.3 in maximum output in terms of sheer output?
Is the pb-13 much louder?Like 2 3.3 maybe?

That is about right more or less depending on the mode settings of each.

Craig

Did you ever find out if Legacy audio had updated the Lf Extreme?
I know they said they would have a new 15" sometime soon. That was 4 months ago. I would like to see a review on one:D
Thanks,
Ryan

Craig
Just wanted resubmit my post. I know you probably overlooked it because I posted at a bad time.
Thanks
Ryan

Ryan ... I will drop Bill a line, and see where they are on the replacement. :)

Ryan ... I will drop Bill a line, and see where they are on the replacement. :)

:cool: Can't wait!
Ryan

Craig, What do you think regarding ED's upcoming A7S-450. A sealed 22.25" cube with their 18" 190v.2 driver and a choice of 550 watt or 1,300 watt amp.

Craig, What do you think regarding ED's upcoming A7S-450. A sealed 22.25" cube with their 18" 190v.2 driver and a choice of 550 watt or 1,300 watt amp.

Hello there mjg. Not sure where in KY you are BUT I reside in the Henderson area. Always good to see another fellow Kentuckian.

I think eD is going to have a hit with that sealed 18 ... definitely go with the bigger amp, too.

Oh man what have I done, I shouldn't read these forums. I just purchased a SVS sub PC20-39+ to replace my ancient 70 watt 8" yamaha sub. I am sure a lot you guys wouldn't blink at spending almost 1k on basically a speaker but to me thats some coin. This beast costs more than my new receiver but the Onkyo 705 wanted better than what I had and the sub was the last piece in my audio puzzle.
I got it due to floor space constraints (no place to fit a big box) and good reviews I read. I was concerned that I didn't see it listed in Craig's chart.
I am hoping it can still compete with some of the better subs reviewed here. I know it won't compete with the monster subs but I don't want to make my ears bleed with infinite Db's just wanted a fairly tight sub that would rock the house when the wife is away.

-Craig

Oh man what have I done, I shouldn't read these forums. I just purchased a SVS sub PC20-39+ to replace my ancient 70 watt 8" yamaha sub. I am sure a lot you guys wouldn't blink at spending almost 1k on basically a speaker but to me thats some coin. This beast costs more than my new receiver but the Onkyo 705 wanted better than what I had and the sub was the last piece in my audio puzzle.
I got it due to floor space constraints (no place to fit a big box) and good reviews I read. I was concerned that I didn't see it listed in Craig's chart.
I am hoping it can still compete with some of the better subs reviewed here. I know it won't compete with the monster subs but I don't want to make my ears bleed with infinite Db's just wanted a fairly tight sub that would rock the house when the wife is away.

-Craig


This forum will bring your bank account way down :p

The sub you got is the tube equivalent of the PB12NSD or plus I believe. It should be on the chart somewhere.

Oh man what have I done, I shouldn't read these forums. I just purchased a SVS sub PC20-39+ to replace my ancient 70 watt 8" yamaha sub. I am sure a lot you guys wouldn't blink at spending almost 1k on basically a speaker but to me thats some coin. This beast costs more than my new receiver but the Onkyo 705 wanted better than what I had and the sub was the last piece in my audio puzzle.
I got it due to floor space constraints (no place to fit a big box) and good reviews I read. I was concerned that I didn't see it listed in Craig's chart.
I am hoping it can still compete with some of the better subs reviewed here. I know it won't compete with the monster subs but I don't want to make my ears bleed with infinite Db's just wanted a fairly tight sub that would rock the house when the wife is away.

-Craig

It is a great sub ... no worries there. I had both a 25-31 plus and a 16-46 plus ... The PB12-NSD got an 86, and yours is an upgrade from it. I find the single driver SVS to actually perform "better" than the dual drivered units ... if you wanted a guess, I would think your sub would be in the 90 range ... pretty close to the Hsu VTF-3.3

Hello there mjg. Not sure where in KY you are BUT I reside in the Henderson area. Always good to see another fellow Kentuckian.

I live in Barren County. I will be driving near your area Saturday. Going to my nephew's birthday party in Evansville. Are you a WKU fan?

I live in Barren County. I will be driving near your area Saturday. Going to my nephew's birthday party in Evansville. Are you a WKU fan?
That is great. Nah, I am a UK Wildcat fan all the way. Be sure to tell your nephew happy birthday for me. My daughter's birthday is also Saturday-she will be 19!!!!!!! Yikes, I am getting old..........LOL!!!!!! I work in Evansville a lot btw. Nice meeting you. Have fun Saturday.

It is a great sub ... no worries there. I had both a 25-31 plus and a 16-46 plus ... The PB12-NSD got an 86, and yours is an upgrade from it. I find the single driver SVS to actually perform "better" than the dual drivered units ... if you wanted a guess, I would think your sub would be in the 90 range ... pretty close to the Hsu VTF-3.3

Thanks that give me some comfort in knowing that it gets the craigsub stamp of approval. I am sure I will get many years of enjoyment out of it as long as my wife doesn't toss me and it out when she sees it.

-Craig

Oh man what have I done, I shouldn't read these forums. I just purchased a SVS sub PC20-39+ to replace my ancient 70 watt 8" yamaha sub. I am sure a lot you guys wouldn't blink at spending almost 1k on basically a speaker but to me thats some coin. This beast costs more than my new receiver but the Onkyo 705 wanted better than what I had and the sub was the last piece in my audio puzzle.
I got it due to floor space constraints (no place to fit a big box) and good reviews I read. I was concerned that I didn't see it listed in Craig's chart.
I am hoping it can still compete with some of the better subs reviewed here. I know it won't compete with the monster subs but I don't want to make my ears bleed with infinite Db's just wanted a fairly tight sub that would rock the house when the wife is away.

-Craig

Me too, just got my 20-39+ setup Monday, saved 6 months for the tube, well worth the cash and the things i did without to afford it. Don't worry about others review of your baby, there will alway s be a bigger better sub out there. Though, it is nice to see others support your choice of subs but don't let keep you enjoying your toy. Best single upgrade i have ever made to improve the overall sound of my system.:D

Craigsub,

I know you've probably been asked this a thousand times, but do you have any plans to test the ed A5-350? Or even the A3-300 with the new 13Ov.2 sub?

Thanks,

Craig has told me he will have the A5-350 later this month for review/tests.

The A5-350 was ordered and paid for around the 22nd or 23rd ... we are in the build Queue now ... :)

sorry for scoopin' ya Craig..now it's time for me to head to wally world and scoop my $99 A2!

sorry for scoopin' ya Craig..now it's time for me to head to wally world and scoop my $99 A2!

Just got mine from Walmart at 7:15am this morning :D............sold out across the nation pretty much. So did BB and CC.

gotta love competition.......now, time to put some Planet Earth HD-DVD's and enjoy!

i wonder if they'll have as good of deals on black friday.. Only problem of course is the lines. I hate dealing with that. The prices are supposed to go down regardless and i'd prefer to get a 1080p player to be honest so i'll wait a few months at least.

Guys, you are the best. I had no idea about the $98 hd dvd player. I live in a small area so figured that they would have some left. They do have some left. I just bought it 10 minutes ago( I sent my secretary). A big Thanks

The A5-350 was ordered and paid for around the 22nd or 23rd ... we are in the build Queue now ... :)

would be cool if they had a webcam so you can watch them build your sub :D

sorry for scoopin' ya Craig..now it's time for me to head to wally world and scoop my $99 A2!

DUDE!! I'm so fortunate. I walked into Wally's at 10:30 am today and there were still at least 5 of these left. Got MINE!!! What a deal!

Guess it pays to shop at a store that's basically in a retirement community in Florida - the seniors don't have a CLUE what a steal that is!!!:)

Thanks for the reminder......I'd honestly forgotten!

if anyone is interested, i have this little out of print dolby demo dvd from 1997. there's not much on it and it's only a 1 gig dvd image, just 4 dolby trailers, some audio test tones, some video tests and a song or 2. it has the "1812 Overture." by The Dallas Symphony Orchestra and the Dallas Symphony Chorus in both dolby 5.1 and 2 channel PCM in the bonus section

if anyone wants the link to download the dvd image, send me a PM. you need to know how to burn a dvd image to a blank dvd to get it to work

oh, one thing that is pretty cool in the audio tests section, you can run full sweeps to each of your 5 channels independently, the sweeps are 20hz to 20khz, you can also run a sweep to the LFE channel

here is a description of the dvd that i found on the net:

DVD Spectacular

Delos International

1645 North Vine Street, Suite 340; Hollywood, California 90028

DV7001

With any new format, the proper test tools necessary to evaluate it should be the first software you buy. Often, having these tools before buying a DVD player will aid you in the buying decision. This DVD comes with an 11-page manual that covers what is on the disc and how to find it. You can either navigate the menus or go directly to the selections. This disc is VERY similar to the Dolby Test DVD but costs less and comes with instructions. To navigate the disc you will use the arrow pad, enter, and return button. The menu button has been disabled on this disc, so if you need to get back to the starting page, you have to use the title button.

The disc is broken down into 6 sections (5 plus the credits).

When the disc first spins up, you are at the main menu. The background image is the same one on the cover of the jewel case but with a little more depth to it. There are 6 buttons. Starting at the left is 1812 Overture, Audio Tests, Video Tests, Bonus Tracks, Credits, and Dolby Trailers.

The first thing on the disc is the "1812 Overture." The Dallas Symphony Orchestra and the Dallas Symphony Chorus performed it. with Andrew Litton conducting. The running time is 16 minutes and 22 seconds. Of course, it is presented in 5 channel Dolby Digital at 448 kb/sec. The first time I heard music in DD was at the HiFi 95 show in Los Angeles. THX and WILSON A/V out of Southern California presented it. This was during the introduction of DD, and the sound was painful to my ears. This DVD from Delos is much, much better. While it does not have the transparency or warmth of the DTS CDs I have, it is a better representation of what a multi-channel recording should be like. The surround channels are used to convey the ambience with the 3 front channels re-creating the performance. This recording is utilizing more bits than the standard DD (384 kb/sec), and it's really pretty good. I have had several non-audiophile friends listen to it, and they enjoyed it.

The next menu item is the "Audio Tests." In this sub-menu, you are presented with several options: System Gain, Channel Check, 5.1 CH Noise Sequence, Pro Logic Noise Sequence, Frequency Response, Polarity, Pro Logic 5.1 CH Switch, and the return button.

* The "System Gain" is a level reference tone, 400 Hz @ -20 dBFS for 30 seconds.
* The channel check presents a voice coming from each channel identifying what channel it is. For example, the left speaker says, "Left."
* The "5.1 CH Noise Sequence" is to set the output levels on your DD decoder.
* The "Pro Logic Noise Sequence" is to set the output levels on you DPL decoder
* The "Frequency Response" takes you to a sub-menu, and from here you can select which channel you would like to perform the sweep on.
* The "Polarity" is used to check the electrical polarity of the output signals. This can also be used to ensure that the delay setting is set properly on your decoder.
* The "Pro Logic 5.1 CH Switch" is used to test the decoder’s ability to switch back and forth between DD and DPL. This is a good test to see how fast your decoder can lock onto the DD bit-stream. Here you will find that not all decoders are created equal!

The next menu item is the "Video Tests." These can be used to help aid in setting up your monitor and to check how the video may be interfering with the Audio. The menu here is not labeled except for indicating buttons 1 through 8. There is no title for any of the patterns. Of all the patterns here, number 5 is the most useful for the average person. This is the color bar pattern, though you will need a blue filter to properly set the color and tint.

The next section is the "Bonus Tracks." Here you get the 16-bit PCM version of the, "1812 Overture" and another 5 CH DD, "The Piano Barcarolle." You can compare the PCM version to the DD. I listened to the 1812 in both straight stereo and in "Trifield" (Meridian Surround Mode). With the DD version, you have better overall imaging, but Trifield did an excellent job.

Now comes my favorite part, the "Dolby Digital Trailers." This disc has the 4 Dolby Digital trailers that are included on some laserdiscs and in the theater. Trailers have become a big thing over the last couple of years, made famous by the THX people. You get the, "Train", "Helicopter", "Egypt", and "Canyon" trailers. They sound much better at home than at any commercial theater I have been to. "The Train", which is the original, is still my favorite, followed closely by "Canyon". This part alone to me is well worth the $24.95 for the disc.

Conclusion

The Delos DVD Spectacular disc will aid reviewers in evaluating DVD players and DD decoders as well as consumers who are looking for the best DVD player they can get. The disc could use some more video test patterns like the PLUGE with Log Gray scale to set the black.

Stacey Spears

http://www.delosmus.com/gif/dv7001.gif

Many thanks for the heads up on the A2. I was planning on boycotting the whole f'ing thing until one side won out. But for $98 dollars???? Thats a no-brainer. Picked it up during my lunch break today. This is the 2nd time I dared to venture into my local Wal-Mart. To my surprise, there were about 20 of em on display. Can't wait until 5:00!!

5:00??
I held off on going...called and the woman in Electronics said,"THE WHAT??"

made me worry!

I don't have my projector yet anyway.


NOW back to your regularly scheduled bass talk!

It looks like the eD A5-350 AND the Epik Valor, Castle and Conquest will all ship late next week. :D

It looks like the eD A5-350 AND the Epik Valor, Castle and Conquest will all ship late next week. :D

Sweet!

It looks like the eD A5-350 AND the Epik Valor, Castle and Conquest will all ship late next week. :D

awesome http://www.sternfannetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/Animations/dancing_banana.gif

craig,


just wondering...

any updates on the trinity with new driver?

craig,


just wondering...

any updates on the trinity with new driver?

Nothing firm yet ... this week has been pretty busy. Starting tomorrow, the Trinity will get a pretty thorough re-eval ... We have 4 new subs coming in, and need to get cranking.

Anyone want to see these 6 lined up ?

eD ... A5-350 and A7-900
DIY ... Dual SDX-15's in a cabinet
Epik ... Valor, Castle, and Conquest

:D

Nothing firm yet ... this week has been pretty busy. Starting tomorrow, the Trinity will get a pretty thorough re-eval ... We have 4 new subs coming in, and need to get cranking.

Anyone want to see these 6 lined up ?

eD ... A5-350 and A7-900
DIY ... Dual SDX-15's in a cabinet
Epik ... Valor, Castle, and Conquest

:D




YES...

I do. need lots of pictures as well! your A7-900 pictures didn't show the drivers! :)

Did someone mention A7-900 drivers ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_1794.jpg

thanks Craig, that wasn't in your post on page 70 :)
btw, did the two of you lift that? or did the photographer help?

can't wait for your epik comparisons ... and the a5-350.

Anyone want to see these 6 lined up ?

eD ... A5-350 and A7-900
DIY ... Dual SDX-15's in a cabinet
Epik ... Valor, Castle, and Conquest

:D
Yes, please. But I would recommend getting a more powerful amp for the dual SDX15. You could at least buy another EP2500 and bridge both of them. The drivers can take it. :)

Craig, if you quote Richard my global ignore doesn't work as well as it should. :eek:

Craig, if you quote Richard my global ignore doesn't work as well as it should. :eek:

1. Thank you for the good idea
2. I have no doubts that Mr. Mayer is Ilkka in disguise. If anyone cares to discuss this, please PM me.
3. Ilkka McMayer is now in my ignore list.

thanks Craig, that wasn't in your post on page 70 :)
btw, did the two of you lift that? or did the photographer help?

can't wait for your epik comparisons ... and the a5-350.

The photographer was my size 6 wife. :D

so is it movable with two people?

so is it movable with two people?

With a good hand truck, yes. I think you will be glad you split them up ... :D

With a good hand truck, yes. I think you will be glad you split them up ... :D

after reading your review on the 900 ---> <--- i was this close to ordering it. then I had shipping quoted ... and then the shipper explained the logistics ... i had to bring my own truck to the shipper's warehouse with at least 4 people. and then my HT is on the second floor.

then I got the idea to split them up since i don't need the output :)
better FR too!

but it looks in that picture that you guys pick that sub up like it was light as a feather. also, doesn't the finish get ruined scratched on the floor like that? is that concrete or carpet?

Looks like carpet to me...

after reading your review on the 900 ---> <--- i was this close to ordering it. then I had shipping quoted ... and then the shipper explained the logistics ... i had to bring my own truck to the shipper's warehouse with at least 4 people. and then my HT is on the second floor.

then I got the idea to split them up since i don't need the output :)
better FR too!

but it looks in that picture that you guys pick that sub up like it was light as a feather. also, doesn't the finish get ruined scratched on the floor like that? is that concrete or carpet?

shipping is not to the door ?

how do you "split them up"? the 900 is one big dual woofer sub

2 people holding up one end of a 400 pound box that's resting on the floor is not that difficult

shipping is not to the door ?

how do you "split them up"? the 900 is one big dual woofer sub

2 people holding up one end of a 400 pound box that's resting on the floor is not that difficult

im not located in the US.

i bought single woofer versions of the A7-900. 900 / 2 = A7-450

you still have to lift half of it though.

Looks like carpet to me...

nice. carpeted garage.

a7-450?? Is this a custom design you had them make?

it used to be custom, but now that everybody knows about it, you can expect it to be a regular product.

ahh i just found the thread on it.. Cool sub.

You should get more output from two 450's over one 900. Two 450 have a lot more internal volume and more wattage. I hope Craig still has the Epik subs when/if he gets the 450 series. I would love to see where the 450 series (sealed and ported) place and compare.

You should get more output from two 450's over one 900. Two 450 have a lot more internal volume and more wattage. I hope Craig still has the Epik subs when/if he gets the 450 series. I would love to see where the 450 series (sealed and ported) place and compare.
I would think the 450 sealed would do really well. It would be very interesting to see where both the sealed and the ported version would end up on Craigsubs scale. Perhaps, we shall all find out soon.

Guys ... The 4 subs due in here: Conquest, Castle, Valor and A5-350 will take several weeks to evaluate ... probably into January.

At that time, we can look at the possibility of a single 18 from eD ...

One test which will definitely be done is the WOTW Pods emerge scene ... we will find out what the Ultra-13, Castle, Conquest, and eD A5-350 / A7-900 can do on this scene.

Looking forward to hearing the results. :)

Guys ... The 4 subs due in here: Conquest, Castle, Valor and A5-350 will take several weeks to evaluate ... probably into January.

At that time, we can look at the possibility of a single 18 from eD ...

One test which will definitely be done is the WOTW Pods emerge scene ... we will find out what the Ultra-13, Castle, Conquest, and eD A5-350 / A7-900 can do on this scene.

All at the same time?

All at the same time?

LOL ... No, Individually from the main listening position in our 4500 cubic foot theater room.

Craigsub,
have you posted your room dimensions/details and equipment list somewhere? Pictures? Just curious as it does give perspective on your "reviews" which are fabulous btw. 4500 cubic feet sounds huge!

Getting a eD A3-300 with new driver and will like to see how it stacks up!

Craigsub,
have you posted your room dimensions/details and equipment list somewhere? Pictures? Just curious as it does give perspective on your "reviews" which are fabulous btw. 4500 cubic feet sounds huge!

We have 3 rooms ... one is 44 x 14 feet, and is a pretty easy room to "drive", one is 25 x 24 feet, and is the main theater room, and the largest is the family room, which is 27 x 24 feet, with large openings into an even larger kitchen/dining area.

Equipment includes a Parasound Halo C2, Emotiva MPS-1 amp, a McIntosh MA-6900 Integrated amp, An Emotiva UL set up, and an Onkyo 674 receiver for power amps, sources are an Arcam DVD player, Toshiba HD-DVD player, a couple of Pioneer Universal players, and a modded Denon 2900.

We have some room treatments in the larger theater room, with more on the way.

For EQ, we use either an SMS-1 or a Behringer 2496.

Here is the "easy" room mentioned above:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/speakers006.jpg

And the main theater room (screen is 120 inches diagonal)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/upstairssitting.jpg

Uhh...I need to ask, but how does that stuff stay on your shelves?

The first room looks great, I really dig the wall paper.

Chris ... Working around my wife's decorating is rather difficult. When we had the GTG here in September, people could not believe the room was not resonating.

Alex .. that is actually a patterned paint, not wallpaper. That room is my favorite spot, and is where critical listening is done. The upstairs room is a more typical HT room.

The photographer was my size 6 wife. :D

Then you should be the one taking the picture.:D

So where would the SVS PB12 Ultra/2 rate on this list?

So where would the SVS PB12 Ultra/2 rate on this list?

I was wondering this also.
Bradley

I was wondering this also.
Bradley

Do you own one? I do, and want another one. 2=:D

Anyone want to see these 6 lined up ?

eD ... A5-350 and A7-900
DIY ... Dual SDX-15's in a cabinet
Epik ... Valor, Castle, and Conquest

:D

I'm very interested in the differences between the Valor and A5-350. For me they will cost the exact same after shipping. I realize that the A5-350 will probably win hands down as for as output, but if the musicality of the Valor is exceptional (due to the sealed cabinet) and it's not that far off on the low end output, I'd be interested in picking one up with the idea of possibly adding a second later down the road to increase the output. Not to mention the dimensions of the Valor will offer more placement options in my living room.

Predictions??

Hello Everyone,

Craig's List is amazing.

I can't appreciate more about this thread with so much information. Please excuse me for asking this question even after reading through just this thread for almost 3 days now. I need some direction before I get lost again. I am looking for a decent sub for my HT.

This is my configuration so far ( missing sub) for my family room:

B&W 683 FRONTS
B&W HTM61 CENTER CHANNEL
B&W CCM65 IN-CEILING SURROUNDS
DENON 3808CI RECEIVER
SHARP BD-HP20
PANASONIC TH-42PX60U
XBOX 360

I have been looking at REL Q108E, B&W ASW610, Velodyne MiniVee, SVS (Don't know what model, just lost), same with HSU.

So, the question might be what are the dimensions of the family room.
It is 16(L) X 20(W) X 9(H) which is about 2880 cu ft.
This family extends into a 8(L) X 8(W) X 9(H) = 576 cu ft, I learned to consider the added spaces only in this thread. So, the final area is about 3500 cu ft.

My time spent using this HT would be Movies-50%, Games - 25%, Watching HD Channels + Music -- 25%.

This will be my first HomeTheatre and may be the last until a decade, so I just want to make sure I get some thing really nice. Two sub combination may not fly too good with my wife so staying close to a single sub.

I already stretched myself a lot in the budget and I want to get your highly esteemed thoughts/opinion of what would be the best sub for this set-up for around $700-$800.

Eagerly waiting for some direction here...

sagirisk, not to add to the confusion but you might want to look at Epik subs also. They've been creating quite a bit of stir for the subwoofer community. And Craigsub is going to be doing a shootout with some of their offerings in the not to distant future.

Staying within your budget, and if Aesthetics is important, take a look at the new AV123 MFW-15. Quite the impressive looking sub:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_4/show-report-rmaf-2007-page-01.html

No reviews of it yet though.

Another great option would be to pick up one of the PB-12 Plus' that SVS is selling out at $799, regular was $1,049. You can get them in some impressive finishes to make the wife happier.

If aesthetics isn't an issue, take a look at the HSU and eD subs (more industrial like finishes).

There are a ton of options in that price range, none of which will do justice in that size of a room though without adding a second!

Thank you for quick replies,
Any thought on REL Q108E, Velodyne MiniVee, SVS PB12 plus, how they compare to each other, if I had to choose from these ? what would I eliminate first ?
Or should I just go for average sub now and give some thought may be in a year later ? can't get more budget :-(

I'm very interested in the differences between the Valor and A5-350. For me they will cost the exact same after shipping. I realize that the A5-350 will probably win hands down as for as output, but if the musicality of the Valor is exceptional (due to the sealed cabinet) and it's not that far off on the low end output, I'd be interested in picking one up with the idea of possibly adding a second later down the road to increase the output. Not to mention the dimensions of the Valor will offer more placement options in my living room.

Predictions??
I am wanting to know the same EXACT thing. I am just begininng to learn more about EPIK.

Thanks for the info/pics Craig. I remember seeing that first picture somewhere now. Looks like Paradigm and Energy speakers...nice! good Canadian stuff (like me!)

hey craig, how do you feel about dual subs

not stacked but one in each front corner

do you feel that with using an sms-1 there is no need for duals ?

i ask because i notice you don't seem to use any duals and you're a big subwoofer fan

hey craig, how do you feel about dual subs

not stacked but one in each front corner

do you feel that with using an sms-1 there is no need for duals ?

i ask because i notice you don't seem to use any duals and you're a big subwoofer fan

I have used duals and quads on many occasions, including in the front corners. In fact, if I ever stop this round robin subwoofer test, I will go back to duals in the minimum.

I have used duals and quads on many occasions, including in the front corners. In fact, if I ever stop this round robin subwoofer test, I will go back to duals in the minimum.

that's cool. do you think your wife would go for dual A7-900's ?

:eek::D

The A7-900 stays in my dedicated cigar bar/man land area. I like it there ... :D

The next 2 super subs will be The Conquest and the BMF from AV123 ... maybe by then I will grow up and just keep what I have and stop testing subs. My wife actually likes the look of the BMF. I think.

Hello Everyone,

Craig's List is amazing.


Dude...This is really inappropriate, please take the spam somewhere else.:p

I currently have two Infinity PS212 sub on each corner. I want to get a third sub that extends to the lower frequency. Is it ok to stack the two infinitys on top of each other and have the third sub in the other corner by itself? And which sub do you recommend would match up good with the infinity subs, but can dig down deep for the lower frequencies? My price range would be between 500 to 700 dollars.

My wife actually likes the look of the BMF. I think. Wait until she sees it in person. :eek: I think the BMF is really handsome. I love everything about it's looks. However, though not as large as the A7-900, it is BIG (and, having helped wrestle it out of the box in which it was shipped, I also can say it is heavy).

P.S: Do not let her see this post before ordering. She will beat you severely about the head and shoulders and smite you. ;)

Uhh...I need to ask, but how does that stuff stay on your shelves? Elmer's. Lots of it. :D

Wait until she sees it in person. :eek: I think the BMF is really handsome. I love everything about it's looks. However, though not as large as the A7-900, it is BIG (and, having helped wrestle it out of the box in which it was shipped, I also can say it is heavy).

P.S: Do not let her see this post before ordering. She will beat you severely about the head and shoulders and smite you. ;)

Are these preproduction BMF's????

Where you getting them?

I attended a get-together (GTG) in North Carolina, where Mark Seaton brought a prototype. Here is a photo of the same prototype at another GTG. I think the photo makes the point. :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v56/Rijax/SoCalGTG2007014Medium.jpg

Keep in mind that in that cabinet are one 15" active driver, and three 18" passive radiators, one of which you can see in the photo. The gentleman in the photo now sings soprano. ;)

Even though I always say that I like my subs deep not pretty, I must admit that is a nice looking sub.

Well, it's too soon to know for certain, but I hope (and believe) this one will be both. :)

The gentleman in the photo now sings soprano. ;)
That was hilarious!
Any impressions on how the sub sounded?

Regrettably, Curtis, keeping in mind that they were using some jury-rigged packaging made from several cut-up cardboard boxes, having been shipped around the country several times (the photo was taken in California), by the time the poor thing reached North Carolina, the travel had taken it's toll, and Mark couldn't get it working to his satisfaction. What I heard sounded pretty good to me, but I know Mark was frustrated by not being able to get it, in his opinion, to properly strut it's stuff. So, since it was not up to snuff, I didn't do any critical listening or make any concrete judgments.

Makes me wonder what the final packaging will be like. :confused:

By the looks of it, it should be packaged in a full wooden crate like the Conquest. Looks pretty... :)

-Dennis

I currently have two Infinity PS212 sub on each corner. I want to get a third sub that extends to the lower frequency. Is it ok to stack the two infinitys on top of each other and have the third sub in the other corner by itself? And which sub do you recommend would match up good with the infinity subs, but can dig down deep for the lower frequencies? My price range would be between 500 to 700 dollars.


Can someone please help with this question?

I currently have two Infinity PS212 sub on each corner. I want to get a third sub that extends to the lower frequency. Is it ok to stack the two infinitys on top of each other and have the third sub in the other corner by itself? And which sub do you recommend would match up good with the infinity subs, but can dig down deep for the lower frequencies? My price range would be between 500 to 700 dollars.

From what I can see, you are looking for extension. Your best bet is likely going to be selling your current subs, and pooling as much as you can for subwoofers which will provide that extension.

From what I can see, you are looking for extension. Your best bet is likely going to be selling your current subs, and pooling as much as you can for subwoofers which will provide that extension.
You owe it to yourself to get two SVS PB-13's, they are clearly the best bang for your buck and provide plenty of extension. They are extremely cost effective as well. Why buy a $3K+ SUB when you can buy two SVS PB-13's for less. At a rating of 109 on Craig's ratings there really is no question on where your money could be best spent.

Cheers!

SVS makes an outstanding product with the Ultra 13. That said It certainly is not the clear winner in bang for the buck. DIY, ED, HSU, AV123, OUTLAW, AXIOM, and EPIC all have very strong contenders in that category.

Case in point, for the price of 1 Ultra 13 you could purchase two ED A5-350s, HSU 3.3s, or Epic Valors/Knights and have a few hundred dollars left over. All have excellent performance and would be sufficent in most rooms with just 1 subwoofer.

Let us not forget the rest of the SVS line. The NSD-12 in particular has a lot of bang for the buck. They are all outstanding performers for the money. I'm certain I'd be very happy with any of the subs mentioned above and I know I'm happy with the one above I do own. It is more then I need in my 2200+ cubic ft room.

Well said........

SVS makes an outstanding product with the Ultra 13. That said It certainly is not the clear winner in bang for the buck. DIY, ED, HSU, AV123, OUTLAW, AXIOM, and EPIC all have very strong contenders in that category.

Case in point, for the price of 1 Ultra 13 you could purchase two ED A5-350s, HSU 3.3, or Epic Valors/Knight and have a few hundred dollars left over. All have excellent performance and would be sufficent in most rooms with just 1 subwoofer.

Let us not forget the rest of the SVS line. The NSD-12 in particular has a lot of bang for the buck. They are all outstanding performers for the money. I'm certain I'd be very happy with any of the subs mentioned above and I know I'm happy with the one above I due own. It is more then I need in my 2200+ cubic ft room.

You owe it to yourself to get two SVS PB-13's, they are clearly the best bang for your buck and provide plenty of extension. They are extremely cost effective as well. Why buy a $3K+ SUB when you can buy two SVS PB-13's for less. At a rating of 109 on Craig's ratings there really is no question on where your money could be best spent.

I don't know who you are responding to, but bori said his price range was $500 to $700. I'm not sure what he could get for his used subs, but they sell new for $300 each at Crutchfield, so even at that price he would still not even have enough for a single PB13U.

so when will these subs be delivered, any word of a specific arrival date yet?

I would probably get the HSU 2.3, and the HSU MBM-12.

so when will these subs be delivered, any word of a specific arrival date yet?

Chad said the Conquest, Castle and Valor were going to be shipped yesterday, but I have not gotten an email confirmation. Do they send shipping notices ?

And the A5-350 was supposed to go to the paint room this week. I will check with eD this morning.

Chad said the Conquest, Castle and Valor were going to be shipped yesterday, but I have not gotten an email confirmation. Do they send shipping notices ?

And the A5-350 was supposed to go to the paint room this week. I will check with eD this morning.

Good stuff Craig; I'm really looking forward to your overall impressions here.

Larry

Chad said the Conquest, Castle and Valor were going to be shipped yesterday, but I have not gotten an email confirmation. Do they send shipping notices ?

And the A5-350 was supposed to go to the paint room this week. I will check with eD this morning.

Craig, when I ordered my valor I did get an email confirmation. But I can't remember if it came the day after it shipped or the same day. Just have someone available to sign for it, cause the closest fedex ground facility was over an hour drive each way for me. The normal fedex facility didn't handle ground, I was pissed! Luckily fedex worked with me and they dropped it at my work cause we have a loading dock. Good luck and happy listening!