Official Craigsub rankings thread [Text View] - Page 17

counterpoint

11-09-07, 09:24 AM

I attended a get-together (GTG) in North Carolina, where Mark Seaton brought a prototype. Here is a photo of the same prototype at another GTG. I think the photo makes the point. :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v56/Rijax/SoCalGTG2007014Medium.jpg

Keep in mind that in that cabinet are one 15" active driver, and three 18" passive radiators, one of which you can see in the photo. The gentleman in the photo now sings soprano. ;)

Hey is that a Bose box in the background? LoL! I hope it was being used as a Pinata, or launched from a catapult, or eaten alive by the BMF!

Guinness77

11-09-07, 04:19 PM

Craig,
I put the order in with ED for 2: AEP25S-900
The dimensions are 25x18x47, sealed dual 18's with a bridged EP2500 for each sub.

I am looking forward to seeing how these work in my room :)

Buknakyd

11-09-07, 06:41 PM

Chad said the Conquest, Castle and Valor were going to be shipped yesterday, but I have not gotten an email confirmation. Do they send shipping notices ?

And the A5-350 was supposed to go to the paint room this week. I will check with eD this morning.

I talked with Dale today regarding my Conquest order and they had been waiting on a shipment of drivers this week. They got them in, and some of the Conquests were going out today while others will be going out Mon & Tues. Seems they got a lot of orders this week for the Conquest so I'm sure they're quite busy.

Can't wait to see how your comparison goes for this next bunch of subs you have coming.

craigsub

11-09-07, 07:07 PM

I got an email tonight, the Epik subwoofers are shipping Monday. Lotsa bass next week !!! :D

MUCHO

11-09-07, 09:23 PM

rmlowz

11-09-07, 09:33 PM

Hello forum friends,

Half of my Christmas present is coming. I got an email from Epik the Conquest has shipped today. I am getting ready. I just spent the last hour installing my Onkyo Pro 885 I will do the set up in the morning.

rmlowz

bori

11-09-07, 09:34 PM

I need a review on this subwoofer with or without turbo. Will I hear or feel a major difference. I noticed that the turbo got 1 point more than the none turbo. Is it really worth paying the extra 100.00 for the turbo? Someone give me a good review on these subwoofers and how good of extension they have.

bigrock66

11-09-07, 10:06 PM

Guys,

I really need some expert advice here and I know I'm at the right place! I've started building my HT. Although I am quite pleased with my layout, I am not so pleased with my Sub location :mad:. After reading tons on subs (and everthing else), I will be getting the HSU 3.3. My biggest problem/concern is the placement. As you can see from my sketch, not the best place. Help!

Room is 16L x 14W x 9H.

Thanks!

BR

jmcomp124

11-09-07, 11:02 PM

jmcomp124

11-09-07, 11:10 PM

Regrettably, Curtis, keeping in mind that they were using some jury-rigged packaging made from several cut-up cardboard boxes, having been shipped around the country several times (the photo was taken in California), by the time the poor thing reached North Carolina, the travel had taken it's toll, and Mark couldn't get it working to his satisfaction. What I heard sounded pretty good to me, but I know Mark was frustrated by not being able to get it, in his opinion, to properly strut it's stuff. So, since it was not up to snuff, I didn't do any critical listening or make any concrete judgments.

Makes me wonder what the final packaging will be like. :confused:

It is so refreshing to see posts like this where someone honestly says something like this "Mark couldn't get it working to his satisfaction. What I heard sounded pretty good to me, but I know Mark was frustrated by not being able to get it, in his opinion, to properly strut it's stuff. So, since it was not up to snuff, I didn't do any critical listening or make any concrete judgments"....
instead of, it peeled the paint in my drywall, it washed my dishes and cooked me dinner :D etc etc.
I hope to hear some opinions on how this subwoofer sounds when dialed in correctly to the listeners satisfaction. Mark is a guy who does not settle with second best. I am sure he will figure this out. I look forward for more concrete impressions on this big bad/good boy :). I can't believe how long I have waited to hear impressions on this design. Mark, please tell us more on how they perform when the rubber meets the road.
Regards,
-Jai

Kevin12586

11-10-07, 12:13 PM

Craig -

I'm really looking for your evaluations as I eye my next upgrade. Epic or SVS or ED.

The other option is adding a MBM to my HSU HO w turbo. Check out my crappy sketch of my HT - any thoughts? I'm thinking of co-locating the MBM by the HO where the chair is now. The HO is 8.5 feet from the seating position and the MBM would be 6.5 feet.

My wallet is in your hands.

If you end up getting the MBM, you will be better served putting it by your recliners instead of next to the HO.

By the way, as you can see from my sig, I also have an MBM and I love it. Adding it gave me more headroom with my dual HO's and they also got down to 13Hz in my room from 15Hz before I added the MBM.

Good luck

Kevin12586

11-10-07, 12:14 PM

MUCHO

11-10-07, 01:34 PM

If you end up getting the MBM, you will be better served putting it by your recliners instead of next to the HO.

By the way, as you can see from my sig, I also have an MBM and I love it. Adding it gave me more headroom with my dual HO's and they also got down to 13Hz in my room from 15Hz before I added the MBM.

Good luck

I could put the MBM behind the recliners but I figured the tactile feel would make the MBM easier to locate - same thing with next to the recliners. You think 6 feet away is too far?

jedi.night

11-10-07, 02:58 PM

I could put the MBM behind the recliners but I figured the tactile feel would make the MBM easier to locate - same thing with next to the recliners. You think 6 feet away is too far?

What are you using as your mains? what is their FRQ response?

If they can be crossed reasonably at lets say 80hz then you shouldn't have a problem putting the MBM nearfield behind couch, recliner etc.

I run a SVS PC-ultra in my front left corner and my MBM is behind the couch.
I can't locate the bass from the MBM but I can feel it for sure...neat tactile effect, highly recommended for all IMHO..

It all depends on your crossover for locating the sound from the MBM.

I let the PC Ultra handle 50hz and below (low cut at 50hz) the MBM handles 50 to 80hz with the AVR crossover from my mains at 80hz.

spyboy

11-10-07, 03:18 PM

LTD02

11-10-07, 03:25 PM

is there an index to this thread?

bsoko2

11-10-07, 04:51 PM

Craig -

I'm really looking for your evaluations as I eye my next upgrade. Epic or SVS or ED.

The other option is adding a MBM to my HSU HO w turbo. Check out my crappy sketch of my HT - any thoughts? I'm thinking of co-locating the MBM by the HO where the chair is now. The HO is 8.5 feet from the seating position and the MBM would be 6.5 feet.

My wallet is in your hands.

I have the 3.3 Turbo and it is at the end of my couch, and the MBM-12 is behind the couch and crossover is 80hz. the subs are approx 9 feet from each other and WOW! My room is over 6000 cubic feet and the bass intergration is perfect with the mains that are 14 feet from the seating area. It's amazing on how the MBM-12 works with the true sub.

Bill

Kevin12586

11-10-07, 05:39 PM

What are you using as your mains? what is their FRQ response?

If they can be crossed reasonably at lets say 80hz then you shouldn't have a problem putting the MBM nearfield behind couch, recliner etc.

I run a SVS PC-ultra in my front left corner and my MBM is behind the couch.
I can't locate the bass from the MBM but I can feel it for sure...neat tactile effect, highly recommended for all IMHO..

It all depends on your crossover for locating the sound from the MBM.

I let the PC Ultra handle 50hz and below (low cut at 50hz) the MBM handles 50 to 80hz with the AVR crossover from my mains at 80hz.

Agreed, mine is right next to my chair, 80Hz xover, and I can't locate where ANY of my bass is coming from.

audiofreak38

11-10-07, 05:58 PM

I would probably get the HSU 2.3, and the HSU MBM-12.

That is an interesting combo if you ask me. Bet that would sound real good.

Duaned

11-10-07, 06:07 PM

is there an index to this thread?

Index? hehe, we need chapters:)

just over 4000 posts:eek:

TrebleVsBass

11-10-07, 07:00 PM

MUCHO

11-11-07, 12:25 AM

Agreed, mine is right next to my chair, 80Hz xover, and I can't locate where ANY of my bass is coming from.

Very well - I guess the MBM is my next upgrade then.

JimP

11-11-07, 02:41 AM

Maybe we should start an "Official Craigsub ranking thread for subs he didn't rank and others want to comment on". :)

TrebleVsBass

11-11-07, 03:27 AM

JimP

11-11-07, 04:04 AM

Treble...

Six of the seven subs you're asking about, Craig hasn't reviewed. If you go back and read what all goes into Craig's review and ranking, I think you'll see that its a whole lot more than just plucking numbers out of thin air. Granted we aren't real good about staying on topic, but your question is enough off topic that it really does belong in its own thread.

Its kind of hard responding to your post when you keep changing it. lol :)

TrebleVsBass

11-11-07, 06:09 AM

Velodyne SPL-1500R, Paradigm Seismic 12 and Martin Logan Depth i ,HSU VTF3 MK3 ,REL subwoofers (R505, B3 and the older stadiums and storms)

None of these subs are on the ranking list except the HSU one. For those of you that have gotten a chance to listen to some of these subwoofers.....

How would you rank them for Music and HT? (relative to the HSU)

Thank you.

Maybe we should start an "Official Craigsub ranking thread for subs he didn't rank and others want to comment on". :)

I am sorry, JimP but I am expecting a more positive attitude. :)
Theoretically only and only Craig should be posting on this thread based on the thread name.
Looking at the other 4000 posts here, I think this is a relatively more related question to the theme of the thread which is sub rankings and comparison and appeals to the audience of the thread who would be seeking this kind of information for their sub purchases like me. ;)
Those subs are not just random subs Craig hasn't tested. They are subs I am interested in knowing about and they fall under a certain budget , size constraint and a preference towards music. As I have noted, I am looking for comments and comparison, not official scores. :)
Thanks.
Another unnecessary post. :rolleyes:

Treble...

Six of the seven subs you're asking about, Craig hasn't reviewed. If you go back and read what all goes into Craig's review and ranking, I think you'll see that its a whole lot more than just plucking numbers out of thin air. Granted we aren't real good about staying on topic, but your question is enough off topic that it really does belong in its own thread.

Its kind of hard responding to your post when you keep changing it. lol :)

The keyword on my first post is "rank". not "score" :D
Another would be "relative".
I do not think I am asking anyone to score these subs and redo the official list. :p
Everyone is welcome to state his/her subjective opinion: "I believe sub X is better than sub Z for music" etc...
My mention of the rankings must have confused you. It is there to say that I do not have any information to compare these subwoofers against each other. :)
Peace lol
And I will rephrase my question for you... ;)

I am looking at these following subs for my next purchase...
Velodyne SPL-1500R, Paradigm Seismic 12, Martin Logan Depth i ,HSU VTF3 MK3 ,REL (R505, B3 and the older stadium and storm models)
Can those of you, who know about some of these subs or know better alternatives, please state your opinions?

Thank you

SbWillie

11-11-07, 10:38 AM

well i bought my Panasonic 1080P plasma last night...sat and watched some Serenity, Matrix,etc clips on their 5.1 demo `room'($300 yamaha sub) and I definately have to get a sub to go with the 1080P's audio!

WIfe is fried on HT shopping after I drug her to several places this week to go HT shopping this week(several nights in a row).

great work as always, CRAIG!

btp

11-11-07, 11:52 AM

well i bought my Panasonic 1080P plasma last night...sat and watched some Serenity, Matrix,etc clips on their 5.1 demo `room'($300 yamaha sub) and I definately have to get a sub to go with the 1080P's audio!

You mean 1080P's video? :confused:

Which sub do you have in mind?

SbWillie

11-11-07, 12:55 PM

check your pms craig....

to all, no one is in trouble.

SbWillie

11-11-07, 12:59 PM

You mean 1080P's video? :confused:

Which sub do you have in mind?

no, I plan on just having the plasma(sans bass) and sub for audio for a while..I seriously stressed my wife out on `rushing out' to get a plasma this week since we FINALLY had the funds for a purchase...we `rushed out to get a HD A3 and spent the next 3 nights rushing out to get the Panny..that's all the details on that sopa opera that I will post.:o
I've got a digital audio output on the Z77 but I wonder what would be the best route for it.

I'm either buying the Acculine A3(next month it should be available) or a Elemental Design >$450 sub. THe A23would get much better WAF and I am in dire need of WAF right now...she was in love with Planet Earth's pic last night which saved my hide.LOL!:p guess It will be the A3 after posting this.

bori

11-12-07, 04:51 PM

I have 2 infinty ps212 subs in each corner. I plan to purchase the VTF-3 Mk3 and put it in one of the corners and stack the infinitys on top of each other. My room size is 22x14. Can someone give me an opinion on my suggested setup. Would this type of setup bring the house down with bass thumping precision? I primarly use my set for Home Theater.

apodaca

11-12-07, 07:49 PM

This was explained on AV123 ... but since the final info was moved here, the following performance parameters were used ... and it is a combination of objective data and blind listening sessions ...

1. Frequency response / linearity
2. Clean SPL delivering ability at frequencies starting at 16 Hz up to 80 Hz
3. Performance on music
4. Performance with movies

I currently have about 450 hours logged into this shootout, and have pages upon pages of notes.

Here is a slice of objective data which went towards the numbers as assigned: The ability of the various subs to deliver high SPL on difficult scenes. To keep this simple, let's look at the VTF-3 HO vs. the SVS PB12-Plus/2 on the lightning scene from WOTW.

PB12-Plus/2:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/svslgt20hz.jpg

VTF-3 HO With Turbo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/hsulgttrbo.jpg

VTF-3 HO W/O Turbo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/hsulgtnotrbo.jpg

I dont get it. Unless I missed the link to full testing results:
Did you compare the total harmonic distortion levels for the subwoofers ? What good is more bass output if it is distorted well above the 10% limit ?

And if the sub is distorting how well can it play music. I stronly suggest that when comparing subwoofers you take into consideration these as well as other characteristics before ranking subwoofers. If you had you would have no doubt come to much different conclusions.

mwolfe38

11-12-07, 08:42 PM

apodaca, did you bother to read the post you quoted
Here is a slice of objective data which went towards the numbers as assigned:

obviously this wasn't the only data he used in scoring the subwoofers. I'm pretty damn sure craig factored in distortion (at least that which he heard) into the scoring.

ransac

11-12-07, 08:44 PM

I don't get it. Unless I missed the link to full testing results:
Did you compare the total harmonic distortion levels for the subwoofers ? What good is more bass output if it is distorted well above the 10% limit ?

And if the sub is distorting how well can it play music. I strongly suggest that when comparing subwoofers you take into consideration these as well as other characteristics before ranking subwoofers. If you had you would have no doubt come to much different conclusions.That is why Craig, with others, listens to the subs.

In the blind tests at the November GTG in Canada, some preferred the sound of the higher distortion. If you nix a sub, without listening, only on clinical measurements, you won't know what you may prefer.

craigsub

11-12-07, 09:15 PM

I dont get it. Unless I missed the link to full testing results:
Did you compare the total harmonic distortion levels for the subwoofers ? What good is more bass output if it is distorted well above the 10% limit ?

And if the sub is distorting how well can it play music. I stronly suggest that when comparing subwoofers you take into consideration these as well as other characteristics before ranking subwoofers. If you had you would have no doubt come to much different conclusions.

Not bad. You nailed it. We actually just drew random numbers out for each sub, from 50 to 150, and posted that number. :rolleyes:

mojomike

11-12-07, 09:29 PM

I just want to know how you determine which blind folks to use for your listening tests. ;)

craigsub

11-12-07, 09:35 PM

I just want to know how you determine which blind folks to use for your listening tests. ;)

Simple, we sneak up behind them, and light a firecracker. If they don't notice it exploding, they make the panel.

DOMAIN64

11-12-07, 09:59 PM

^^^^^^^^^^^
Hahahahahahahah.................Boom!!!!

bgillyjcu

11-12-07, 10:08 PM

Lol

craigsub

11-12-07, 11:47 PM

Here is one graph out of 100's we have done here. This is the VTF-3 HO in the max extension mode at 20 Hz. It delivers 102.7 dB GP at 2 meters with under 10 % THD. We do these graphs individually for each subwoofer tested.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/hsutrb20-1.jpg

cjwhitehouse

11-13-07, 12:41 PM

Interesting graph, Craig. It is unusual to see 6th harmonic distortion apparently dominate like that over 2nd/3rd. That would certainly blow any CEA-2010 stepped limits. It would be interesting to know what that sounded like. :confused:

miameow

11-13-07, 04:31 PM

Craig, Has the Valor arrived??

audiofreak38

11-13-07, 05:32 PM

Craig, Has the Valor arrived??
Very good question as I have been pondering the same. Sure hope it has. :)

craigsub

11-13-07, 06:46 PM

All 3 Epik subs should be here tomorrow ... :D

mojomike

11-13-07, 08:24 PM

Sounds like there's going to be a rumble in Erie, Pa.

Imitation

11-13-07, 11:14 PM

All 3 Epik subs should be here tomorrow ... :D

Then the question becomes, which do you hook up first? :)

OvalNut

11-13-07, 11:17 PM

I'd go smallest to largest.

ribbit

11-13-07, 11:54 PM

I'd go smallest to largest.

definitely not! :) largest to smallest :)

otk

11-14-07, 12:00 AM

All 3 Epik subs should be here tomorrow ... :D

get the divorce papers ready :D

trainCatcer

11-14-07, 02:03 AM

btp

11-14-07, 02:09 AM

Here is one graph out of 100's we have done here. This is the VTF-3 HO in the max extension mode at 20 Hz. It delivers 102.7 dB GP at 2 meters with under 10 % THD. We do these graphs individually for each subwoofer tested.

Does TrueRTA calculate the THD for you? Just wondering, since I don't see anything in that screen shot indicating THD. Thanks.

Bradley

Richard Mayer

11-14-07, 02:26 AM

Does TrueRTA calculate the THD for you? Just wondering, since I don't see anything in that screen shot indicating THD. Thanks.

Bradley
No, TrueRTA doesn't calculate the THD. I'm guessing Craig just "eyeballs" it, meaning stops when some harmonic hits around -20 dB relative to the fundamental. That is pretty inaccurate method for various reasons.

craigsub

11-14-07, 07:23 AM

No, TrueRTA doesn't calculate the THD. I'm guessing Craig just "eyeballs" it, meaning stops when some harmonic hits around -20 dB relative to the fundamental. That is pretty inaccurate method for various reasons.

Yes, Ilkka, but we do actually listen to the subwoofers under carefully controlled conditions. There is actually something useful to be learned by doing that. You are correct ... If I had software that could tell me what the THD was, I might be a whole dB closer to perfection for the max output on the subs. Somehow, that one dB just does not seem that big a deal to me. ;)

Richard Mayer

11-14-07, 08:16 AM

Yes, Ilkka, but we do actually listen to the subwoofers under carefully controlled conditions. There is actually something useful to be learned by doing that. You are correct ... If I had software that could tell me what the THD was, I might be a whole dB closer to perfection for the max output on the subs. Somehow, that one dB just does not seem that big a deal to me. ;)
Maybe that Illka thing is just some inside joke that I'm not getting? :mad:

Of course it's important to listen to subwoofers, though it's a proven fact that measurements do correlate well with subjective opinions. I haven't yet seen a single subwoofer that wouldn't follow that path, maybe that is just a coincidence? :D

I don't know about your 1 dB error. All I said the "eyeball" method is pretty inaccurate.

otk

11-14-07, 09:13 AM

btp

11-14-07, 10:24 AM

[RODNEY KING]Can't we all just get along?[/RODNEY KING]

Now back to our regularly scheduled program... is there any RTA type of software that does (accurately) calculate THD for you? Does said software cost an arm and a leg?

I don't ask these things to be contentious. I am sincerely interested. It would be nice to have an objective measure of distortion for my own purposes.

Bradley

craigsub

11-14-07, 01:52 PM

Maybe that Illka thing is just some inside joke that I'm not getting? :mad:

Of course it's important to listen to subwoofers, though it's a proven fact that measurements do correlate well with subjective opinions. I haven't yet seen a single subwoofer that wouldn't follow that path, maybe that is just a coincidence? :D

I don't know about your 1 dB error. All I said the "eyeball" method is pretty inaccurate.

Ilkka, you add nothing to these threads. Please, stay to your own threads, and leave this one. I would like to keep it going ;)

margate21

11-14-07, 02:08 PM

can anyone recommend a decent sub for a room that is 26x10x8. but the ht portion is only about half of that. i also live in an apt with hw floors and would not like to p.o. neighbors. was considering something at svs, hsu or the martin logan abyss (l like the idea of front and down firing, just dont know if there is a real diff btwn down and front)

cjwhitehouse

11-14-07, 03:02 PM

Now back to our regularly scheduled program... is there any RTA type of software that does (accurately) calculate THD for you? Does said software cost an arm and a leg?

I don't ask these things to be contentious. I am sincerely interested. It would be nice to have an objective measure of distortion for my own purposes.

Bradley

I can't vouch for its accuracy, I haven't compared it to professional software, but this (http://www.sillanumsoft.org/) has the great virtue of being available for free download. ;)

[edit] Forget that link. It seems a shame to look a gift horse in the mouth but the THD calculation in Visual Analyser looks wrong. It reads about half what it should, although the other functionality looks good. Perhaps someone should report it as a bug and see whether they can fix it.

csnow

11-14-07, 04:50 PM

Craig,

Could I beg, plead, pay, bribe, or threaten you to test the Valor first when it comes in :) I am ready to order this sub but I would like to see your results.

craigsub

11-14-07, 04:54 PM

The Epik subs got delayed until tomorrow ... The shipper has been great, but one dispatcher erred, and sent them from Cleveland (90 miles west of here) 120 miles to Pittsburgh, so they can be sent 100 miles back north.

The GOOD news, the dispatcher has shown the perfect aptitude for a government job. :D

Valor first ... hmmmmm... We have 2 potential rooms ... the big theater room, which is 4500 cubic feet, and hard to "fill with bass", or the basement theater, which is 3700 cubes, and all concrete, much easier to do goo bass there.

Any thoughts ?

csnow

11-14-07, 05:09 PM

I am 17' x 24' with 10' ceilings with tile floor which is 4080 cubic feet. I know I need the PB13 ultra but WAF factor is very high. This is replacing my tried and true old friend, the Def Tec Powerfield 1500 that I bought back in 1995. I am curious if the Valor is better than the Outlaw LFM-1EX which I believe is amost the same as the HSU VTF-3 MK3. Since my room is sizewise in the middle of your rooms, I will let you be the judge. Thanks for the awsome job you have done. It makes buying a sub much easier for n00bs like me.

Chris

mojomike

11-14-07, 05:32 PM

swgiust

11-14-07, 05:43 PM

Know it's been asked before, but what page are the current list of rankings on?

MKtheater

11-14-07, 06:03 PM

its in craigs sig, just use his post above

mjg100

11-14-07, 06:19 PM

Craig, What about the ED subs, have they been shipped to you yet? I am still waiting on my ED A7S-450.

craigsub

11-14-07, 06:44 PM

audiofreak38

11-14-07, 07:13 PM

mjg100

11-14-07, 07:34 PM

The eD a5-350 ships tomorrow ... so we should have it for Thanksgiving weekend.

Look for some direct comparisons between the Castle, PB-13 Ultra, and the A5-350 ... and then there is the COnquest... :D

My guess would be Conquest followed by PB-13 Ultra and then it gets close. On paper you would pick the Castle over the A5-350. A5-350 has equal power, but the Castle has a larger cabinet and more port area.

Ron Temple

11-14-07, 07:48 PM

DennisPagoulatos

11-14-07, 08:24 PM

I think we might be surprised at the Castle to PB13 comparison...

-Dennis

Splotto

11-14-07, 10:04 PM

Wow....thanks for the link to the rankings....I was just checking post #1 all the time...

Interesting to see that beast from ED in the top spot.

Splotto

blevvy

11-15-07, 06:17 AM

great thread!

Looking forward to the Epik reviews!

swgiust

11-15-07, 09:53 AM

Wow....thanks for the link to the rankings....I was just checking post #1 all the time...

Interesting to see that beast from ED in the top spot.

Splotto

OK I'm not getting this. I click on craigsub and I get a list of his post.
What am I missing here?

XylerB

11-15-07, 10:09 AM

Click at the bottom of each of his posts where it says

"link to subwoofer summary as suggested by TWO esteemed forum members "

avsrebel

11-15-07, 10:11 AM

OK I'm not getting this. I click on craigsub and I get a list of his post.
What am I missing here?

Click on this part in his signature under his posts
"link to subwoofer summary as suggested by TWO esteemed forum members (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136)"

Rijax

11-15-07, 10:12 AM

You have to click on the "link to subwoofer summary as suggested by TWO esteemed forum members (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136)" in Craig's signature at the bottom of each of his posts. (It's a link here in my post as well. Just click on it. :))

EDIT: OH DRAT! Too slow again. We'll I get points for including the link in my post. That is, of course, why I was a bit later than the other two gentlemen. Being a slow typer could have absolutely NOTHING to do with it! ;)

craigsub

11-15-07, 11:18 AM

The Epiks are here, and unboxed/uncrated. My wife is going to take pics of the Valor, Castle and Conquest lined up, then I will carry the Valor to the "Manland" area that houses the eD and get pics of those 2 together, just for a reference.

The Conquest is big ... but my wife did not look at it and panic like she did the eD sub. :D

bigrock66

11-15-07, 11:24 AM

We're all anxious!! :D

mojomike

11-15-07, 11:30 AM

Craig, what is it with you and the camera? I'm sure you could learn to shoot pics if you try. In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing the pics. :)

craigsub

11-15-07, 11:41 AM

MKtheater

11-15-07, 11:44 AM

I just can't believe that he can get his wife to take pictures of subs that he is buying, my wife only takes pictures if I am selling them.

alexadams77

11-15-07, 11:47 AM

I just can't believe that he can get his wife to take pictures of subs that he is buying, my wife only takes pictures if I am selling them.

That would be my wife as well.......she'd probably throw a party!

Ricci

11-15-07, 02:06 PM

Craig,
Could you post your impressions of the fit and finish of the Epik subs when you get them unpacked, etc.? Nothing too in-depth just a quick "Hey these look good" or what have you:).

ge55

11-15-07, 02:19 PM

Guys, I rec'd Ed sub this morning and after uncrating and driving into a corner, big as a small truck ha, and does look like a bed liner, but not too bad. Wife thinks so. I made her watch the first 15 minutes of Flight of The Phoenix and she said she felt like she was in the plane going down. I actually got a smile when I asked her how she liked it. Listening to Diana Krall at the moment and had to turn bass up, no DTS on my track. Gotta go listen some more.

alexadams77

11-15-07, 02:22 PM

What are some other artists to listen to when trying to tell/hear the detail of a sub? I listened to some Diana Krall and almost died because I'm not into that type of music.

rossandwendy

11-15-07, 02:28 PM

I just can't believe that he can get his wife to take pictures of subs that he is buying, my wife only takes pictures if I am selling them.

LOL, THAT was funny :D

audiofreak38

11-15-07, 02:29 PM

What are some other artists to listen to when trying to tell/hear the detail of a sub? I listened to some Diana Krall and almost died because I'm not into that type of music.
Same here Alex BUT she sure is a hotty. She is good at what she does but man ole man is she a beaut or what? :D:D

Scottfox

11-15-07, 03:36 PM

Alex- What kind of music do you listen to? Classical- ST Saens has pipe organs with DEEP bass & good detail. My HSU sub came with some on a Demo disc. For rock- try Bass Mekaniks, Led Zep- Moby Dick, Linkin Park- FRGT/10, Alanis Morissete- Uninvited, Sting- A thousand years.

DOOM136

11-15-07, 03:53 PM

jonmightyjz

11-15-07, 05:48 PM

Just got the Conquest this afternoon.
Here is a start... Wife should be home soon to help me haul this monster in.

More pics coming

Jon

Rijax

11-15-07, 05:53 PM

Jeez, that is one ugly subwoofer. :eek: Looks like unfinished plywood. :(

;)

Just got the Conquest this afternoon.
Here is a start... Wife should be home soon to help me haul this monster in.

More pics coming

Jon

jonmightyjz

11-15-07, 06:04 PM

I will post other pics in the Epik thread.

Rijax

11-15-07, 06:05 PM

My wife is the family artist. When I first bought a digital camera, she was still into 35MM stuff. When she started seeing me posting pics I had taken, the camera became hers. I am no longer permitted to use it.

She insists on taking all pics.

If you want, you can talk to her, and see how you make out ... :D

Rijax has been here, and knows exactly what I mean. :eek: Indeed I do. Mrs. Sub is a most wonderful combination of beauty, strength, and outspoken honesty (a trait I much appreciate). Frankly, she's much too good for Craig, and I don't understand how she could prefer him to me. Outside of youth, good looks, intelligence, health, wealth, charm, and wit, what's Craig got that I haven't? Absolutely nothing! Sheesh! :confused:

;)

JimP

11-15-07, 06:12 PM

Jeez, that is one ugly subwoofer. :eek: Looks like unfinished plywood. :(

;)

That's what I was think.

Must be how they keep the cost down. :D

Ron Temple

11-15-07, 06:42 PM

That's what I was think.

Must be how they keep the cost down. :DThat's the new rustic woodchip finish that Chad's been working on. I especially like the cup/spike look to protect the floor ;)

mjg100

11-15-07, 06:49 PM

That's the new rustic woodchip finish that Chad's been working on. I especially like the cup/spike look to protect the floor ;)

A spilt drink on that might improve the looks. :D

craigsub

11-15-07, 06:52 PM

Trucker: There is ONE subwoofer in that thing ?

Answer: Yup

Trucker: That's HUGE

Answer ... Yup, in fact, it's the 2nd biggest one we have here.

Trucker: "What tha F_ _ _ ???"

:D

WE have the Valor hooked up in the big theater for now. Tomorrow, the Castle and Conquest get carried in...

ransac

11-15-07, 07:09 PM

Outside of youth, good looks, intelligence, health, wealth, charm, and wit, what's Craig got that I haven't? Absolutely nothing! Sheesh! :confused:

;)You must really be old, ugly, stupid, infirm, poor, offensive, and dull.:)

Rijax

11-15-07, 07:56 PM

Jeez I hate it when people I don't even know have me figured out. http://bestsmileys.com/sad/8.gif

mwolfe38

11-16-07, 12:19 AM

Hey craig, did you get to hook up the epiks yet? Looking forward to your impressions.

craigsub

11-16-07, 12:25 AM

So far, just the Valor. I tried it in the same locale as the Maestro, Fathom, and Velodyne. It does not hit like those subs, but it is pretty darn good.

Tomorrow, the big guys get dialed in. :D

craigsub

11-16-07, 07:23 AM

Adding to last night's rather lame post ... The Valor, while not in the same league as a Fathom 113, DD-18 or Maestro, is doing surprisingly well in our 4500 cubic foot system.

Considering one could purchase 4-6 Valors for the price of one of the above, it is a terrific sub.

In fact, I would not be surprised to find a 4-pack to be a legitimate alternative to a Conquest.

Heinrich S

11-16-07, 07:39 AM

Hey Craig,

From observations, how much more powerful is the Valor compared to the SVS PB10 ?

Bailman

11-16-07, 07:39 AM

What are some other artists to listen to when trying to tell/hear the detail of a sub? I listened to some Diana Krall and almost died because I'm not into that type of music.

I usualy pull out a CD made by dmp. It's a 20-Bit Remaster of the Thom Rotella Band which was originally recorded on custom Discrete Class A Electronics. Very lush and articulate. It is what you are looking for. I don't care to much for D. Krall either.:D

ThomasV555

11-16-07, 07:42 AM

What are some other artists to listen to when trying to tell/hear the detail of a sub? I listened to some Diana Krall and almost died because I'm not into that type of music.

Same here Alex BUT she sure is a hotty. She is good at what she does but man ole man is she a beaut or what? :D:D

I have seen better at the Mall of America.

<---- Is still excited to see how the Epik subs stack up.

Heinrich S

11-16-07, 07:50 AM

Would dual PB10's match the Fathom or Maestro in clean output and extension ?

audiofreak38

11-16-07, 08:45 AM

I have seen better at the Mall of America.

<---- Is still excited to see how the Epik subs stack up.
Bummer guess I need to go there sometimes. :p:p

foamfan

11-16-07, 09:10 AM

Bummer guess I need to go there sometimes. :p:p

Like this one :D.....

audiofreak38

11-16-07, 10:10 AM

Like this one :D.....

LoL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..................that is so funny. :p:p

MKtheater

11-16-07, 10:15 AM

Who said you can take pictures of my wife :D

otk

11-16-07, 11:25 AM

Brian Tatnall

11-16-07, 11:53 AM

i asked that in the epik thread a while back. since 2 Valors cost about the same as a conquest, which would be better, 2 valors "stacked" or a single conquest

Do you mean since 2 Valors cost about the same as a Tower? :confused:

otk

11-16-07, 01:54 PM

Do you mean since 2 Valors cost about the same as a Tower? :confused:

ah, it's been 2 months since that post and i forgot the prices

i meant 3 valors "stacked" vs. 1 conquest

this was my original post about it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11702208&postcount=384

chrislee

11-16-07, 02:15 PM

Well now, would say 2 Valors with two 15" drivers be able to move as much air and give as great visceral impact of say a single 18" driver sub?

otk

11-16-07, 02:32 PM

Well now, would say 2 Valors with two 15" drivers be able to move as much air and give as great visceral impact of say a single 18" driver sub?

my first post was wrong, i meant 3 valors vs 1 conquest since they equal out to about the same $$$$

craigsub

11-16-07, 07:59 PM

The Conquest is in the house, calibrated, and Transformers is hooked up. The scene at the beginning with the "Transformer Helicopter" has some serious bass ... Wow, is this intense. :D

SoundsGood

11-16-07, 08:16 PM

chengbin

11-16-07, 08:17 PM

Would dual PB10's match the Fathom or Maestro in clean output and extension ?

No, it would take more like 3 or 4.

Ironmike86

11-16-07, 08:24 PM

What I was told = PB13-Ultra = 3.0X baseline from 35-80 Hz; 4.0X baseline from 18-35 Hz.
Baseline = one PB10. Dunno how those other 3 subs would compare. That would be output. I believe the sq would sound better from one sub instead of an equal 3.

jedi.night

11-16-07, 08:45 PM

The Conquest is in the house, calibrated, and Transformers is hooked up. The scene at the beginning with the "Transformer Helicopter" has some serious bass ... Wow, is this intense. :D

That sub must be for real.

I found that movie to be lacking in LFE. or rather not lacking but underwhelming.

Try out some War of the Worlds and Master & Commander!!!!

alexadams77

11-16-07, 08:52 PM

I have the PC13 and the LFE was excellent during Transformers. No more of this 1 scene BS when demoing my sub for friends, I throw that movie in and enjoy the vibrations!

btp

11-16-07, 08:54 PM

Yeah, Transformers isn't too bad for LFE content. The DTS track on WoTW is just recorded so ridiculously hot compared to just about any other DVD I've ever come across. I haven't watched Master & Commander in ages, so I can't comment. I'm waiting for it to come out on Blu Ray, but maybe I'll break down and buy a SD DVD copy so I can test it out on my sub.

otk

11-17-07, 01:39 AM

The DTS track on WoTW is just recorded so ridiculously hot compared to just about any other DVD I've ever come across.

i've only seen this movie on cable in HD and even the dolby digital track is sick

in the WOTW thread, people tend to focus on the lightning scenes but i like when the tri-pods emerge from the ground right after that scene. incredible

Buknakyd

11-17-07, 02:12 AM

The Conquest is in the house, calibrated, and Transformers is hooked up. The scene at the beginning with the "Transformer Helicopter" has some serious bass ... Wow, is this intense. :D

Well I think a LOT of folks here are on the edge of their seat to see what Craig has to say about these subs. And posts like this just seem to make it more intense.

We're dying to hear about it Craig!

craigsub

11-17-07, 08:13 AM

The Conquest is a terrific home theater sub ... We watched Transformers and 300 last night. Tomorrow, I will do the WOTW scenes with the Ultra 13, Conquest and Castle.

For finish, it is pretty close to the eD subs ... large, black boxes. Epik's finish is smoother, but my wife is not too thrilled with either.

She had a total "over my dead body" moment on the A7-900, while she merely grumbled about the Conquest, and muttered "men" under her voice while leaving the room. :D

jedi.night

11-17-07, 08:18 AM

i've only seen this movie on cable in HD and even the dolby digital track is sick

in the WOTW thread, people tend to focus on the lightning scenes but i like when the tri-pods emerge from the ground right after that scene. incredible

I agree, while I know the Lightning scene is scary low in FRQ,
The pods emerge scene is a show stopper to anyone who comes over to see what my surround sound is all about....

Puts a smile on my face when I look at friends and family as the entire concrete floored room rattles.....:)

SbWillie

11-17-07, 08:27 AM

The Conquest is in the house, calibrated, and Transformers is hooked up. The scene at the beginning with the "Transformer Helicopter" has some serious bass ... Wow, is this intense. :D

well I'm used to those helicopters...since we have a AFB and Air NG here in OKC the flyovers are almost a daily routine....will shake your house to death.:D

guess my plasma has pacified me for a few months..then I'll get a sub! having a huge Bedlam party in a week and I wish I could shake the walls with my HD DVD Transformers' but oh well.

(tip watch HD GETAWAY:`Bora Bora'-course now my wife wants to go on a vacation there!) :rolleyes:

ThomasV555

11-17-07, 08:36 AM

The Conquest is a terrific home theater sub ...

Would I be reading too much into it by focusing on this statement?

craigsub

11-17-07, 08:45 AM

Would I be reading too much into it by focusing on this statement?

Probably ... it has been hooked up for 15 hours, and no music has been critically listened to yet.

audiofreak38

11-17-07, 08:59 AM

Craig, how does the Valor sound? Can you give a comparison between say the Valor and Hsu 3.3? My concern is which of the two is the most musical that still does a great job with ht. My room is about 2000 ft.^3 with an opening to a small hallway closet AND my dining area. Really looking to ascertain some tight, punchy, well-articulated bass that has distinctness in the transient response. Not at all concerned with sub 20 Hz performance as I prefer it to be at least down to the low 20's. Therefore, Craig how does the Valor match up with the Hsu 3.3 or even the 2.3??? I am aware the 2.3 is discontinued but the Outlaw Plus can still be purchased and by all accounts is eesentially the same from what I have garnered thus far. I know some of this will be from memory but can you at least give me some idea? Thanks Craig for all of your hard work. Have a great day. :):)

mojomike

11-17-07, 09:05 AM

Craig, re: the Conquest, it's been questioned as to what the actual tuning is for the sub. Would it be possible for you to test for this? Another interesting test would be with one port blocked.

Splotto

11-17-07, 10:21 AM

She had a total "over my dead body" moment on the A7-900, while she merely grumbled about the Conquest, and muttered "men" under her voice while leaving the room. :D

I am dr00ling over the 900. I can only imagine the CFO's response should that get delivered one day.

It appears to still hold the top spot in your rankings....hmmmmm.....xmas is coming......

Splotto

otk

11-17-07, 10:56 AM

I agree, while I know the Lightning scene is scary low in FRQ,
The pods emerge scene is a show stopper to anyone who comes over to see what my surround sound is all about....

Puts a smile on my face when I look at friends and family as the entire concrete floored room rattles.....:)

i had a friend over last week who has pretty much zero interest in home theater and after a while he started looking around the room and asking me how much this and that costs and kind of looked at me startled so i put the darla taps scene on from my DVR and cranked up to reference level. he grabs the arms of the chair and said the room was moving and he could feel something kicking him in the butt, LOL

i don't have butt kickers by the way :D

vitod

11-17-07, 11:00 AM

otk

11-17-07, 11:02 AM

hey craig, any plans on testing a A7S-450 and/or A7-450

unbelievable how many awesome subs are coming out for the money

god bless the internet :)

mjg100

11-17-07, 11:26 AM

i had a friend over last week who has pretty much zero interest in home theater and after a while he started looking around the room and asking me how much this and that costs and kind of looked at me startled so i put the darla taps scene on from my DVR and cranked up to reference level. he grabs the arms of the chair and said the room was moving and he could feel something kicking him in the butt, LOL

i don't have butt kickers by the way :D

What sub/subs are you using currently?

Kpt_Krunch

11-17-07, 12:54 PM

hey craig, any plans on testing a A7S-450 and/or A7-450

unbelievable how many awesome subs are coming out for the money

god bless the internet :)

lol - glad I'm not him. Last post I saw from him regarding the eD subs he was getting some in. Give the poor man a break. He's got the Epiks now, let him test them properly, he'll need to 'break them in' first (for those that belive in that) then he'll have to put them through their paces for both music and movies for several hours (I hope) before he gives them a score. By then, I'm sure the eD subs will arrive.

I tell ya, I'm sure Craigs kids were more patient than some of you guys :D

Not that I'm not sitting on the edge of seat or anything myself. But like I tell my son when he asks "Are we there yet?" - "We'll get there when we get there". (He just laughs when I do this by they way, it's a joke with us).

But lets just let Craig do his tests on these subs, and quit harassing the poor guy with (are you going to test this sub too, what about this one, hey, you didn't do this one). The way I see it, if you're that impatient, order them yourself and do your own testing. If you expect him to respond to all the inquries (it's not just you otk either - I quote you but I'm speaking generally here) he'll never get any tests done. :D

To keep the thread at the top - we could speculate on where we think these beasts will score given what we know about them.

I say the Castle will score similar to the Hsu VTF3 MKIII w/o turbo - and will get between 88 and 92 points but be better for h/t than music.

The Valor will score better for music (around 48 or 49) then H/T (42 or 43) so will be between 90 to 93.

The Conquest should score extremely well for h/t - I would say 54 or 55 min to a max of 60, and for music I would say min 48 max 53. So it could get as high as 113, or as 'low' as 102.

It will be very interesting to see if I'm close, or way off in left field on this one.

btp

11-17-07, 12:59 PM

mwolfe38

11-17-07, 01:27 PM

My guess,
conquest will score 115 points 60/55
castle will score 105 55/50
valor will score 92 44/48

bigrock66

11-17-07, 01:29 PM

lol - glad I'm not him. Last post I saw from him regarding the eD subs he was getting some in. Give the poor man a break. He's got the Epiks now, let him test them properly, he'll need to 'break them in' first (for those that belive in that) then he'll have to put them through their paces for both music and movies for several hours (I hope) before he gives them a score. By then, I'm sure the eD subs will arrive.

I tell ya, I'm sure Craigs kids were more patient than some of you guys :D

Not that I'm not sitting on the edge of seat or anything myself. But like I tell my son when he asks "Are we there yet?" - "We'll get there when we get there". (He just laughs when I do this by they way, it's a joke with us).

But lets just let Craig do his tests on these subs, and quit harassing the poor guy with (are you going to test this sub too, what about this one, hey, you didn't do this one). The way I see it, if you're that impatient, order them yourself and do your own testing. If you expect him to respond to all the inquries (it's not just you otk either - I quote you but I'm speaking generally here) he'll never get any tests done. :D

To keep the thread at the top - we could speculate on where we think these beasts will score given what we know about them.

I say the Castle will score similar to the Hsu VTF3 MKIII w/o turbo - and will get between 88 and 92 points but be better for h/t than music.

The Valor will score better for music (around 48 or 49) then H/T (42 or 43) so will be between 90 to 93.

The Conquest should score extremely well for h/t - I would say 54 or 55 min to a max of 60, and for music I would say min 48 max 53. So it could get as high as 113, or as 'low' as 102.

It will be very interesting to see if I'm close, or way off in left field on this one.

Hey Krunch,

I tend to agree with you on your educated guess. I do think that the Valor will be closer to <90 though (although I would love for it to be 92).

The Conquest will probaly move to the top of Craig's list (or second at the very least).

I would love to see how the Gotham would rank (this is NOT a request :D)

Richard Mayer

11-17-07, 02:53 PM

Not that I'm not sitting on the edge of seat or anything myself. But like I tell my son when he asks "Are we there yet?" - "We'll get there when we get there". (He just laughs when I do this by they way, it's a joke with us).

This reminds me of a hilarious "Shrek 2" scene. :D

Ron Temple

11-17-07, 02:54 PM

KK's right, be patient guys, Craig is very thorough and I imagine the big boys take some tweaking. Hopefully, he'll chime in on how he gets these monsters flat. Not saying I'm in the market, but I'm tempted. The size and weight of the big subs intimidates me. I'm not on board with the score speculation idea either...creates false expectation, even though it's fun.

alexadams77

11-17-07, 03:20 PM

I'm pretty sure it's a scene from the Incredibles when they're flying back to the city on a rocket.

Richard Mayer

11-17-07, 04:10 PM

I'm pretty sure it's a scene from the Incredibles when they're flying back to the city on a rocket.
Yeah but IMHO the Shrek 2 scene (and actually the whole movie) is much funnier. :D

otk

11-17-07, 04:35 PM

lol - glad I'm not him. Last post I saw from him regarding the eD subs he was getting some in. Give the poor man a break. He's got the Epiks now, let him test them properly, he'll need to 'break them in' first (for those that belive in that) then he'll have to put them through their paces for both music and movies for several hours (I hope) before he gives them a score. By then, I'm sure the eD subs will arrive.

I tell ya, I'm sure Craigs kids were more patient than some of you guys :D

Not that I'm not sitting on the edge of seat or anything myself. But like I tell my son when he asks "Are we there yet?" - "We'll get there when we get there". (He just laughs when I do this by they way, it's a joke with us).

But lets just let Craig do his tests on these subs, and quit harassing the poor guy with (are you going to test this sub too, what about this one, hey, you didn't do this one). The way I see it, if you're that impatient, order them yourself and do your own testing. If you expect him to respond to all the inquries (it's not just you otk either - I quote you but I'm speaking generally here) he'll never get any tests done. :D

To keep the thread at the top - we could speculate on where we think these beasts will score given what we know about them.

I say the Castle will score similar to the Hsu VTF3 MKIII w/o turbo - and will get between 88 and 92 points but be better for h/t than music.

The Valor will score better for music (around 48 or 49) then H/T (42 or 43) so will be between 90 to 93.

The Conquest should score extremely well for h/t - I would say 54 or 55 min to a max of 60, and for music I would say min 48 max 53. So it could get as high as 113, or as 'low' as 102.

It will be very interesting to see if I'm close, or way off in left field on this one.

you're entitled to your thoughts but i hardly think my innocent little question would be considered "harassing"

sheesh !!!!!!!!!!

with all the $hit that is posted in this thread, my simple little question was more on topic than most of the crap people post here

maybe next time i'll just post a pic of an obese womans big ass on a chair :rolleyes:

audiofreak38

11-17-07, 05:11 PM

My guess,
conquest will score 115 points 60/55
castle will score 105 55/50
valor will score 92 44/48

I sure hope the Valor does that well. Who knows perhaps even higher.

craigsub

11-18-07, 11:28 AM

We were out on an all day swim meet yesterday ... here are some pics of the Castle, Valor and Conquest being unboxed ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2272.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2274.jpg

armystud0911

11-18-07, 11:44 AM

Its neat to see them all next to eachother, he sure likes that rectangular shape box with the driver and port up front on a tall narrow baffle and deep cabinet. I would have expected the greatest dimension to be the one with the ports, but it isn't. Curious as to how these do compared to eachother as their aren't many tests out for them yet, don't keep us hanging, you got all day.

scottwayne

11-18-07, 12:55 PM

Hello All,

First time poster. I've been checking out this site for 3 days now. Love Craig's work!!! Anyway, I have 2 rooms that I need subs for.

Room #1: Theater Room. 20 x 20 x 8, with 2 openings into the kitchen and dining area(20 x 30 x 8). 95% movies, 5% classic rock music. I just updated to all Polk Audio speakers and have a Mirage 10" sub that goes down to 25Hz. I makes a shuttering noise when low. Wife wants something attrative and small in black(sorry, no eD). BTW, Yamaha HTR-5890. Im thinking the Valor, Knight, PB-12NSD or the Hru 2.3

Room #2: The Hole(aka the basement, the Man's Room, the gym). 30 x 50 x 7, unfinished block walls, 2 heat pumps, tons of weight training equipment, heavy bag, you know, basement stuff, but the room is very open. I moved my old home theater equipment down there and use it while work out(away from the Mrs.). I'm looking for something mean, ignorant, angry, and testosterone fed, though I don't want to spend more than $1000. Looking at eD 350, Hru 3.3, SVS PB-12+ and maybe Castle(waiting for Craig's take on Epik).

I look forward to all your thoughts and advise. Tired of dealing with Circuit City and Best Buy kid salesmen. Thanks

vitod

11-18-07, 01:48 PM

Craig, love your garage. So unfair.:p

bluray_1080p

11-18-07, 05:14 PM

We were out on an all day swim meet yesterday ... here are some pics of the Castle, Valor and Conquest being unboxed ...

I can not wait to see what the outcome will be.

Tobester

11-18-07, 10:03 PM

In some of the pictures he has posted it looks more like a speaker/subwoffer warehouse than a garage. I just have one large closet that fills up with boxes, speakers and various a/v stuff. I somtimes think I may be loosing it but then I look at Craig's garage and feel perfectly sane again.:)

md1953

11-19-07, 08:28 AM

craigsub

11-19-07, 11:42 AM

spyboy

11-19-07, 12:21 PM

you're entitled to your thoughts but i hardly think my innocent little question would be considered "harassing"

sheesh !!!!!!!!!!

with all the $hit that is posted in this thread, my simple little question was more on topic than most of the crap people post here

maybe next time i'll just post a pic of an obese womans big ass on a chair :rolleyes:

What difference does it make to you? Just get the Def Tech Trinity, when you have more than $250 to spend.

crackyflipside

11-19-07, 12:23 PM

Man the conquest really does look like a mini-fridge!

lalakersfan34

11-19-07, 12:34 PM

Hmmm, based on the first picture in the garage, I would suggest Craig start an Official Driver Ranking (the golf variety) thread. It's apparent that he's been through quite a few of them.:D

Craig, do you think a two year old Cleveland Launcher will go as deep as the newer models and work as well off the fairway as it does off the tee?

Some people might think otherwise, but I haven't seen any difference comparing my old original r7 to the newer models (SQ, new r7, FT-5, Hi-bore, etc) - in fact, I hit the old one farther and more consistently. Of course I'm a 10 handicap - someone who's really good might tell a difference. To me, the biggest difference is how the club looks and feels, and how confident I feel with it in my hands.

As for working off the fairway, all of these new drivers don't seem to work very well because the clubface is too tall!

But anyway, back to subwoofers...can't wait to see Craig's posts on the Epiks!

ProblemHouston

11-19-07, 03:28 PM

I am a 23 handicap, but I do get lots of free clubs at dealer outings. You would think that, out of the 120 clubs I have amassed, 14 of them would actually WORK... :D

I only bring out the Nike on sharp dog legs that cater to my ugly slice off the tee or any hole over 400 yards. Out here in the desert we don't have very long courses so I may only use it 3 time during 18 holes.

craigsub

11-19-07, 06:14 PM

The eD A5-350 arrived today .. so the holiday weekend is shaping up as a comparo between the 2 15 inch subs with the Ultra tossed in as a barometer.

Chip E

11-19-07, 06:23 PM

Maybe throw the F113 good measure too?

bluray_1080p

11-19-07, 10:23 PM

The eD A5-350 arrived today .. so the holiday weekend is shaping up as a comparo between the 2 15 inch subs with the Ultra tossed in as a barometer.

Good to hear, keep up the good work.

tradewinds

11-20-07, 09:42 AM

Hi guys,
What sort of HT score would a HSU VTF-2 Mark II get?

Thanks.

allredp

11-20-07, 02:08 PM

Hey Craig--much thanks for the "homework" for the rest of us!

I second that motion to add the SVS PB13U and the JLF113 into the Epik & eD shootout!

Appreciate your work, man!

inca

11-20-07, 02:48 PM

Are there any new plans on trying out the new CSX-12 sub from Cadence? I remember reading Craigs review on the older model X-Sub they had with very positive reviews for its price point, and apparently they have made the newer ones even better, and they discontinued the X-subs. I have one coming but I am completely ignorant about doing any kind of testing what so ever, but I will let you know if it sounds good to my untrained ears.

bigrock66

11-20-07, 02:48 PM

Guys,

Does anyone have any experience with the SVS 20-39-PC-PLUS? I'm a technical guy so just I love stats but my audiophile side lends me to trust the listening experience more.

Also, how do you think this sub would rate? I would think that it would be around 90.

Getting ready to decide between a few choices. This is obviously one of them... :confused:

Thanks much!

BR

MichaelTS

11-20-07, 05:12 PM

Woot, should be a fun Turkey Day Craig :)

Eager to hear what you think.

michael

rossandwendy

11-20-07, 07:14 PM

Hi guys,
What sort of HT score would a HSU VTF-2 Mark II get?

Thanks.
Click the link in Craigsub's signature for the complete summary list - the score you are asking for is in there...

tradewinds

11-20-07, 08:55 PM

Click the link in Craigsub's signature for the complete summary list - the score you are asking for is in there...

It is? I must be blind for I do not see it there. There are a lot of Mark III but I don't see a Mark II.

csnow

11-20-07, 09:03 PM

Woot, should be a fun Turkey Day Craig :)

Eager to hear what you think.

michael

No, we are eagar to see what you think about what you hear :)

TexasC5

11-21-07, 11:19 AM

The eD A5-350 arrived today .. so the holiday weekend is shaping up as a comparo between the 2 15 inch subs with the Ultra tossed in as a barometer.

Awesome, really looking forward to the results. Thanks!!!

MichaelTS

11-21-07, 12:24 PM

No, we are eagar to see what you think about what you hear :)

LOL, true.

Regardless, Craig's endeavor to test these products for us relentlessly and in an unbiased manner is appreciated!

michael

craigsub

11-21-07, 03:37 PM

I just returned from a business trip, and am looking forward to a nice, long weekend.

Look for a lot of in room graphs taken using some challenging material. I have really come to like the graphs of the Machines Emerge scene from WOTW.

It challenges a sub with high level, simultaneous signals from 15 to 40 Hz, with a lot of variances ... if you follow the True RTA graph in a "non-peak hold", you will see, for example, a large scale 15 and 33 Hz signal change to 22-29, 17-31-40 ... etc...

This scene also lasts for quite some time, and is a total torture test.

alexadams77

11-21-07, 03:44 PM

CraigSub, what Subsonic Filter Selection (20/15/10/Sealed) are you using for testing the PB13 and which one do you prefer? Also, I was wondering if you have it setup in any of your theatres as something that's going to stay awhile?

rmlowz

11-21-07, 06:21 PM

Hello,

I watched WOTW at the theater. I want to buy the disc. Can one of my forum friends lead me to the chapter or numbers to the scene that Craig is talking about? I want to test my subs when they get here.

Thanks,

rmlowz

alexadams77

11-21-07, 06:30 PM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755493

This is the "Master List of DVD's w/BASS", it'll tell you all the scenes, freqs and movies that have bass in them.

craigsub

11-21-07, 06:42 PM

Here is an in room sweep of the A5-350 using no eq at all. The next couple of days will see us using it in the system ... On music, it is really good so far, and look for some bass spectacular stuff later.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/A5350sweep.jpg

MTBDOC

11-21-07, 08:18 PM

Very linear...and (sorry) but what room? I have a hard time tracking where various subs are in your posts. Thanks for all you do!

Then again, I really don't know why I keep reading this thread. As it happens, I have 4 x 16ov.2 subs that will likely do quite well sealed w/ a Crown K2. But I really would just as soon find something already built!

ribbit

11-21-07, 08:29 PM

thats a great sweep ... how big a room? good f3 too

rmlowz

11-21-07, 08:31 PM

Thanks AlexAdams77 for the info

rmlowz

craigsub

11-21-07, 08:32 PM

The room is 25 x 24/21 feet, depending on the wall. Total volume is about 4500 cubic feet, and it is sealed.

Here is a pic ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/upstairssitting.jpg

craigsub

11-21-07, 10:20 PM

I have been playing around with the A5-350 tonight, and it is a very good subwoofer. Even in our large room, it had the walls and floor shaking in the machines emerge scene from WOTW, and it delivers a lot larger slice of room pressurizing than one normally expects for $600.

Max Lomax

11-22-07, 10:16 AM

Wow, quite a response curve there on the A5-350. Not much work to do there.

You still rockin that big bastard?(A7-900) I was wondering if it improved with some break-in.

ThomasV555

11-22-07, 10:58 AM

Wow, quite a response curve there on the A5-350. Not much work to do there.

You still rockin that big bastard?(A7-900) I was wondering if it improved with some break-in.

Instead of boring names like Ultra or Conquest, wouldn't it be nice for a flagship sub to be called "The Big Bastard?"
Kind of goes w/ Hsu's HO's.

bigrock66

11-22-07, 11:02 AM

Instead of boring names like Ultra or Conquest, wouldn't it be nice for a flagship sub to be called "The Big Bastard?"
Kind of goes w/ Hsu's HO's.

Now that's funny! :D

bigrock66

11-22-07, 11:07 AM

ShrikeT

11-22-07, 12:19 PM

nathan_h

11-22-07, 01:38 PM

So is the HSU VTF-2 MK3 still the sub to get for ~$500? Or have the eD subs surpassed it? Any other recommendations for that price range? I'm looking for the deepest and most musical sub I can get in that price range. Thanks.

In that price range, you may have too choose between super deep versus high output versus super musical. Which matters most to you?

xcjago

11-22-07, 01:47 PM

Instead of boring names like Ultra or Conquest, wouldn't it be nice for a flagship sub to be called "The Big Bastard?"
Kind of goes w/ Hsu's HO's.

What do you think the BMF subwoofer from AV123 stands for? :D

craigsub

11-22-07, 01:52 PM

What do you think the BMF subwoofer from AV123 stands for? :D

Barely Makes (a) Fart ?

veris

11-22-07, 02:25 PM

Wow, quite a response curve there on the A5-350. Not much work to do there.

You still rockin that big bastard?(A7-900) I was wondering if it improved with some break-in.

My A5-350 had an equally impressive FR. It didn't extend quite as low as Craig's, but I haven't played with positioning at all and the room is still unsealed as the ceiling is still open.

I'm very please with it, but am waiting [patiently] for Craig's opinion.

my "results" are here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=888642&page=14

Since people are "bench racing" with subs results, I'll guess the A5-350 will be a mid to high 90s score.

ransac

11-22-07, 02:28 PM

Can anyone comment? Thanks!A lot of people have/had the 20-39 and not many were returned. I had one for a short time and really liked the sound and impact. I returned it to upgrade to a +/2 as I had a very large space (>8000cf) and a single 20-39 was being pushed too hard. I didn't have any port noise problems, but I did bottom it out a few times when I cranked it up. Again, due to too much space and not enough woofer.

bigrock66

11-22-07, 02:52 PM

JimP

11-22-07, 03:16 PM

What do you think the BMF subwoofer from AV123 stands for? :D

I believe Mark Seaton who is the designer/builder has said that while working on the design on his computer, a warning came up to "backup my files" ergo, BMF. However, our imaginations come out with something more guy like such as big mother ******. :eek:(use your imagination)

I'm hopeful that it'll be the turning point in subs for large rooms.

ransac

11-22-07, 03:23 PM

Did you attempt to tune it to different settings (other than volume). I am very curious to hear about this and how well it works at 16Hz.

Thanks for your reply!

BRI usually had it in the 16Hz tune. Everything worked good, but there were some demanding scenes that would overdrive the woofer. This was about 1 1/2 years ago, but one scene I remember specifically was the ship on the rocks in King Kong. I was measuring 110db (uncorrected) in the 16Hz tune when it bottomed a few times. If I turned it down to 108db, no problem. The RS SPL meter was at the LP about 6' from the sub. The space was just too large for a single 12" driver to achieve the levels I wanted. This is why I exchanged it for a +/2 (which is what SVS originally recommended), and I haven't had any issues since. Of course, the +/2 takes up a lot more floor space.

ThomasV555

11-22-07, 03:50 PM

A lot of people have/had the 20-39 and not many were returned. I had one for a short time and really liked the sound and impact. I returned it to upgrade to a +/2 as I had a very large space (>8000cf) and a single 20-39 was being pushed too hard. I didn't have any port noise problems, but I did bottom it out a few times when I cranked it up. Again, due to too much space and not enough woofer.

I purchased the 20-39 PC+ 12.2 used and kept it for under a year. It was better than many mediocre subs I have had, but it was not as good as it's replacement in the HSU VTF3 MKII (Basically the VTF2 MKIII). It had too much bottom end and was very slow or boomy w/ music. I loved the shape, b/c I could put it behind the door or in the other corner easily.

I have been itching to upgrade for a while now and I am looking at the Epik and elemental subs. My only requisite is that I will not trade sound quality for output and extension like some car audio SPL-head.

If Epik and eD don't provide my next sub then I will be looking at a HO + MBM.

bigrock66

11-22-07, 04:35 PM

I purchased the 20-39 PC+ 12.2 used and kept it for under a year. It was better than many mediocre subs I have had, but it was not as good as it's replacement in the HSU VTF3 MKII (Basically the VTF2 MKIII). It had too much bottom end and was very slow or boomy w/ music. I loved the shape, b/c I could put it behind the door or in the other corner easily.

I have been itching to upgrade for a while now and I am looking at the Epik and elemental subs. My only requisite is that I will not trade sound quality for output and extension like some car audio SPL-head.

If Epik and eD don't provide my next sub then I will be looking at a HO + MBM.

I haven't made my mind up yet. I am still also looking at the VTF3.3 Turbo. I really wanted the VTF3HO Turbo but HSU will not ship it to me in Canada. Had they agreed, I wouldn't still be shopping. My biggest problem is proper placement (the HSU's won't fill well but... :D). The 20-39 would be fine for placement plus SVS has a great dealer in Canada, SonicBoom.

I love SPL as much as anyone but like you, I don't want to compromise quality for this.

I also want to mention that even though I don't really have a budget, I don't really want to spend more than 1000$ for this.

Please keep the comments coming!

Thanks!!

BR

nombrecinq

11-22-07, 04:38 PM

Oh yeah and happy turkey day!

nokia99

11-22-07, 07:06 PM

I haven't made my mind up yet. I am still also looking at the VTF3.3 Turbo. I really wanted the VTF3HO Turbo but HSU will not ship it to me in Canada. Had they agreed, I wouldn't still be shopping. My biggest problem is proper placement (the HSU's won't fill well but... :D). The 20-39 would be fine for placement plus SVS has a great dealer in Canada, SonicBoom.

I love SPL as much as anyone but like you, I don't want to compromise quality for this.

I also want to mention that even though I don't really have a budget, I don't really want to spend more than 1000$ for this.

Please keep the comments coming!

Thanks!!

BR

Have to say after owning the 20 39pc plus 12.3 i also didnt keep it long. I was lucky to still own my Pb10 and Pb12 at the sme time and this is were i realized that the only thing i really liked about it was that it had more spl than my pb 10. The 20 39 plus was sloppy and bottom heavy bass/not much mid and detail for music. Thats how i felt anyway, my HSU vtf 3mk2 has solved that problem. But i still have my PB 10 in a smaller room and love it.

bigrock66

11-23-07, 01:56 AM

I usually had it in the 16Hz tune. Everything worked good, but there were some demanding scenes that would overdrive the woofer. This was about 1 1/2 years ago, but one scene I remember specifically was the ship on the rocks in King Kong. I was measuring 110db (uncorrected) in the 16Hz tune when it bottomed a few times. If I turned it down to 108db, no problem. The RS SPL meter was at the LP about 6' from the sub. The space was just too large for a single 12" driver to achieve the levels I wanted. This is why I exchanged it for a +/2 (which is what SVS originally recommended), and I haven't had any issues since. Of course, the +/2 takes up a lot more floor space.

I talked to the SonicBoom guys today. They think that my room size is a bit small for the 20-39 but said that it would fill it nicely and that I would be very happy with it. My room is 16x14x9. Do you agree with this statement?

Thanks!

audiofreak38

11-23-07, 09:14 AM

Have to say after owning the 20 39pc plus 12.3 i also didnt keep it long. I was lucky to still own my Pb10 and Pb12 at the sme time and this is were i realized that the only thing i really liked about it was that it had more spl than my pb 10. The 20 39 plus was sloppy and bottom heavy bass/not much mid and detail for music. Thats how i felt anyway, my HSU vtf 3mk2 has solved that problem. But i still have my PB 10 in a smaller room and love it.
I find this interesting because personally I did NOT find the PB10-NSD OR the PB12-NSD musical at all. Sure enough, they both had plenty down low and could knock your socks off but musically they both left much to be desired. Good to see I am not the only one that notices this about the PB10-NSD and the PB12-NSD.

ransac

11-23-07, 12:41 PM

I talked to the SonicBoom guys today. They think that my room size is a bit small for the 20-39 but said that it would fill it nicely and that I would be very happy with it. My room is 16x14x9. Do you agree with this statement?

Thanks!Yes. The sub is more than you NEED, but that doesn't stop too many people from buying a particular product. It is always good to have more than you need, until it becomes less than you want.;)

bigrock66

11-23-07, 12:45 PM

Yes. The sub is more than you NEED, but that doesn't stop too many people from buying a particular product. It is always good to have more than you need, until it becomes less than you want.;)

I agree! I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't too small... Thanks Randy, you've been very helpful.

BR

ransac

11-23-07, 01:17 PM

I agree! I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't too small... Thanks Randy, you've been very helpful.

BRI assume you are looking at the cylinders due to limited floor space. Is this why you are so focused on the SVS tube? If you have placement options for a big box, then there are other options within your budget. At least I think so, but I don't know what the cost of the SVS, HSU, eD, or smaller Epiks would be for a Canadian. With the US$ dropping, I would expect these other US made subs to be a better bargain in Canada, but added costs may prove that to be false. I know I have dealt with other companies that set Canadian prices and don't let them fluctuate with the US$. So even when the $ is low, the Canadian price doesn't change.

Not trying to talk you into or out of anything, just making sure you have explored all your options.

Ron Temple

11-23-07, 02:23 PM

Since I'm as guilty as anyone about derailing threads with recommendations, I shouldn't talk :eek:, but there's an SVS thread floating about that can address SVS questions, as well as Velo, Hsu, eD and Epik. This is Craig's thread. If he wants to make recs that's fine. I imagine this thread is hard enough to mine for some of the great info included here, without more pages of posts that can be handled on case specific threads.

thuway

11-23-07, 05:19 PM

I don't know about you Craig, but I just love having a sub in each corner of the room.

I have two sealed tempests and I can't even begin to tell you how amazing the room sounds with them on opposite sides of the room.

IT then becomes a question of extension vs. sound quality - not an easy answer :(.

craigsub

11-24-07, 12:12 PM

Here are the peak hold graphs for Chapter 2-5 from WOTW (The Machines Emerge), using the DTS cut. I did the SVS PB12-NSD, as it has a lot of data on other sites, then the A5-350 and finally the Conquest.

Each was captured at 15 feet from the subwoofer in our large theater room with the doors opened into an even larger kitchen and family area. In total, the open area is over 20,000 cubic feet.

The "peak" and "average" SPL levels are not relevant (far upper left).

The most important performance aspect it to compare frequency to frequency.

For example, the Conquest, while not appearing that much more powerful than the A5-350, really is. For example, when asked to, The Conquest could deliver 97 dB @ 16 Hz and 103 dB @ 25 Hz, the A5-350 could do 93 dB @ 16 Hz and the same 103 dB @ 25 Hz and the SVS 88 dB @ 16 Hz and 98 dB @ 25 Hz when the ground is cracking open.

That's what makes this chapter so good to capture on a graph ... it gives a consistent torture test every time.

PB12-NSD:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SVSPB12NSD15ft.jpg

A5-350:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/a5350wotw13ft.jpg

Conquest:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/Conquest15ftwotw.jpg

Fathom 113:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/113WOTWlght-1.jpg

Def Tech Trinity:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/Deftechwotw.jpg

leukoplast

11-24-07, 12:29 PM

craigsub

11-24-07, 12:36 PM

Hey Craig, I don't really think I want to search through 150 pages to find a answer, so I'll just ask. :)

You have a Epik Valor to test right? Cause I just purchased one yesterday, and am very curious to see what it can do, and maybe even your personal opinion of it. I decided to go with a lower powered sealed sub out of the Epik line, and I hope it can deliver.

I do have a Valor, and it is in a high end system, in our basement 2 channel theater, with a pair of Salk SongTowers.

Look for a wrap up on it next weekend, but rest assured, there is nothing in a sealed sub that I know of that touches it for the $$$$$.

I love music in that room. :)

leukoplast

11-24-07, 12:39 PM

Nicely! I like the sound of that, can't wait for your readings. :)

allredp

11-24-07, 12:54 PM

Craig! Great work on the shootout! That's very revealing. I can't believe those numbers at 15' in such a leaky large room!

Could you puhleeze :D throw the PB13U and the JLF113 into the same shootout with the WOTW sceene!!!

I am dying to know how these two stack up with eD and Epik!!!

You are so good to do this and tell us all about it--I'm sorry to ask if it is too hard, but I'm dying to know so I can't help but ask.

Thanks big time!

Kevin12586

11-24-07, 01:00 PM

Hey Craig I searched this thread and didn't see it but I am sure you did one. Did you run the WOTW scene through RTA with the HSU HO? If you did, and you have the file saved could you repost it? If you didn't do this then don't worry Craig, I was just curious to see how it stacked up.

Thanks

Rijax

11-24-07, 01:14 PM

I do have a Valor, and it is in a high end system, in our basement 2 channel theater, with a pair of Salk SongTowers.

Look for a wrap up on it next weekend, but rest assured, there is nothing in a sealed sub that I know of that touches it for the $$$$$.

I love music in that room. :) Eagerly looking forward to seeing the Valor's extension where it lands in your rankings. :)

rossandwendy

11-24-07, 01:21 PM

Here is the PB13 on the test Craig did in September:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11632446#post11632446

Craig, are the test conditions the same for your earlier PB13 and current Conquest WOTW peak hold measurements? If so, the Ultra actually output higher db than the Conquest at several frequencies, pretty amazing performance!

craigsub

11-24-07, 01:21 PM

I added the Trinity and Fathom 113 that were taken in August ... but the Ultra sweep I have here was from 2 meters ... I will re-take it along with the Castle tomorrow.

rossandwendy

11-24-07, 01:28 PM

Look how close the eD A5-350 comes to the monstrous Epik on real-world output in this WOTW scene...dual co-located 350's would easily outperform the Conquest, and for only $1200 delivered!

craigsub

11-24-07, 01:38 PM

Look how close the eD A5-350 comes to the monstrous Epik on real-world output in this WOTW scene...dual co-located 350's would easily outperform the Conquest, and for only $1200 delivered!

Ross ... for actual delivered performance, the Conquest is appx. 4 dB more powerful than the A5-350 ... so yes, dual A5-350's will exceed a single Conquest, by a small margin, for less $$$$.

My wife just cannot stand how either looks, though. One will be going into my new gym we are putting into the basement ... not sure what to do with the other. Maybe combine the Conquest and A7-900 in Manland ... :D

Splotto

11-24-07, 01:40 PM

Craig:

Thanks for adding the link in your sig for the latest and greatest list.

One thing that might help many people answer their own questions faster might be to add the post number to the list for the test results for the sub in question.

For example, the number 4207 would appear before or after the scores for the PB-12 NSD, the A5-350, Conquest and the Fathom 113.

Far be it from me to suggest you do more work (unless you already have a list handy). So I thought maybe people could PM you the post numbers and you could add them.

Thoughts?

Splotto

craigsub

11-24-07, 02:02 PM

Splotto ... We could also make #4207 another "goto" link in my signature, and catalogue what all these subs can do on that scene from the same location.

federiko

11-24-07, 02:06 PM

Splotto ... We could also make #4207 another "goto" link in my signature, and catalogue what all these subs can do on that scene from the same location.
Hi Craig,

I am really anxious to see where the ed A5 350 and the Valor will fit in your subwoofer ranking? For how long will you keep the suspense? :)

Splotto

11-24-07, 02:17 PM

Splotto ... We could also make #4207 another "goto" link in my signature, and catalogue what all these subs can do on that scene from the same location.

Like I said, I wasn't looking to suggest you take up a third job as a web designer. :-)

It's your call. I just know you get alot of questions and it might cut down on them.

I also know it would have been nice the other day when I went looking for the A7-900 results (xmas is coming and I keep sending the link to the CFO).

Splotto

godsantagonist

11-24-07, 02:56 PM

...
My wife just cannot stand how either looks, though. One will be going into my new gym we are putting into the basement ... not sure what to do with the other. Maybe combine the Conquest and A7-900 in Manland ... :D

i find that very ironic and amusing considering your sig!!! :eek::D:p

cguthrie19

11-24-07, 07:11 PM

24x26x9 converted garage with wood floors. 7.1, probably Jamo speakers for the front and surround. I listened to a 15 inch Jamo sub a local dealer had that was a demo and had cosmetic damage. Listed just under 2K, he was going to sell it for under 1K. It really rumbled, didn't seem clear, tight. The dealer suggested a new 10 inch Jamo, 650 watt. I haven't been able to find much on here about Jamo. Didn't really want to go with a 10"

Pioneer VSX-94TXH receiver

SVS or HSU seem to be about what I need. I don't want the round svs or the turbo hsu. What do you think?

bigrock66

11-24-07, 08:06 PM

I assume you are looking at the cylinders due to limited floor space. Is this why you are so focused on the SVS tube? If you have placement options for a big box, then there are other options within your budget. At least I think so, but I don't know what the cost of the SVS, HSU, eD, or smaller Epiks would be for a Canadian. With the US$ dropping, I would expect these other US made subs to be a better bargain in Canada, but added costs may prove that to be false. I know I have dealt with other companies that set Canadian prices and don't let them fluctuate with the US$. So even when the $ is low, the Canadian price doesn't change.

Not trying to talk you into or out of anything, just making sure you have explored all your options.

Randy,

Your comments on Cdn dollar are quite accurate. Higher CDN currency does not always equate to savings for us. Some dealers are a little more fair than others... That said, my issue is definitely space. I had my heart set on the VTF but this whole shipping/customs issue is starting to get to me...

Thanks!

BR

dlfromcanada

11-24-07, 10:10 PM

uhh, ok..

actually when you're buying ID from Canada a higher dollar will ALWAYS mean more savings

chengbin

11-25-07, 08:35 AM

That is not true, look at SVS. Visit www.sonicboomaudio.com and www.svsound.com and you'll realize there is a $100-200 difference. Part of that is because of shipping costs.

dlfromcanada

11-25-07, 09:40 AM

I said Internet "Direct", sonicboom is a reseller

craigsub

11-25-07, 10:24 AM

Thanks to 4 straight days of "off time" with a lot of bad weather, we were able to wrap up the testing of the A5-350 and Conquest.

The Conquest is a remarkable product for the money. While I try to steer clear of absolute remarks about size, fit and finish ... it is about as large a subwoofer as "most" homes can stand. It comes very close to the twin 18 inch driver eD A7-900 in overall performance, while retaining a "liveable" size.

On music it is tremendous ... and on home theater, it is the 2nd best performer we have had.

The score ? ... Home Theater 60 ... Music 52, for a total of 112.

The eD A5-350 is an amazing value. Yes, it is ugly. I even think it is ugly. But it delivers a deep an palpable bass, and is terrific on music. It loses a bit of musicality in the 40-80 Hz arena to subs like the PB-13 Ultra, but overall, it is quite listenable.

The Score ? ... Home Theater 50 ... Music 46, for a total of 96

csnow

11-25-07, 10:32 AM

Wow, come home from church and the A5-350 scores are up. What a way to start my day :) Thanks for all your work Craig. Can you post some pics of the A5-350? I have seen a few but they were poor quality.

lefthandluke

11-25-07, 10:42 AM

craig,

thanks for doing all this.

i love it...

...do you think you could keep this thread going for another twenty years or so?

leukoplast

11-25-07, 10:46 AM

Wow, the Conquest made 2nd place and is $400 cheaper than the A7-900, only 6 points shy of the A7-900, and weights about half as much (right?) with a single 18" driver...Impressive. You really can't go wrong with a Conquest.

Can't wait to see where the Valor and Castle stack up in the ratings. :)

mojomike

11-25-07, 10:59 AM

Wow, the Conquest made 2nd place and is $400 cheaper than the A7-900, only 4 points shy of the A7-900, and weights about half as much (right?) with a single 18" driver...Impressive. You really can't go wrong with a Conquest.

Can't wait to see where the Valor and Castle stack up in the ratings. :)

I'm seeing a 6 point spread between the A7-900 and the Conquest. To me, that appears to be a bit of a smack down. Meanwhile the Conquest only managed to outscore the cheaper, much smaller, better finished 13Ultra by only one point.

The $600 A5-350 looks very comfy squeezed in between the $2400 Maestro and the $2600 f112. Nice job there eD.

Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2000 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 110 points (60-50)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48) * see below
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 97 points (54-43)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
eD A5-350 ($600 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)

leukoplast

11-25-07, 11:07 AM

Oh my bad, yeah 6 points shy of the leader :D

And I don't know enough about how all these perform or anything, but I would only assume the Conquest is a awesome deal. But you are right, the SVS PB-13Ultra is right below it, seemingly smaller and only a 12" driver.

craigsub

11-25-07, 11:11 AM

The Conquest is more powerful than is the Ultra ... scoring 3 points higher .. and I have a feeling it would score even more with a more powerful amp.

SVS has the amp-driver interface where they squeezed all the performance from the driver ... where I think 1000 watts is probably leaving something "on the table" for the Conquest.

I still find the PB13-Ultra to be a remarkable achievement ... look at its measured performance in Ilkka's tests, against the MASSIVE 18 inch LMS-5400 and two 18 inch passive radiators from TC-Sounds, it is only 4 dB less powerful from 20-31.5 Hz.

The Conquest vs. Ultra question will come down to a lot of factors ... Size, is it a dedicated theater, or also a music sub .. etc ...

chengbin

11-25-07, 11:16 AM

How much more powerful are we talking about for the Conquest vs PB13U?
When do we get to see the other Epik subs' score?
A little suggestion, in the score summary, I think if you put the driver size and ported or sealed informaton beside their name, it will the comparison more informative and interesting.

dlfromcanada

11-25-07, 11:20 AM

at $599 the ED easily seems like the value King, plus they have the top dog overall also, very impressive

also, with all these giants, huge props to SVS, they've managed to be near the top in both value and performance while offering different finishes as well as the super lightweight (relative to the rest of course) cylinder version

craigsub

11-25-07, 11:22 AM

The Conquest is about 2 dB more powerful than the Ultra in the 20-31.5 Hz arena, on program material.

It does give a more visceral "WHOMP" on scenes like the WOTW scene.

Both subs are exceptional, too. Think of the performance for $1499 and $1599, plus shipping, respectively.

The Castle and Valor will start getting worked over this week ... look at a wrap up on those 2 weeks from today.

chengbin

11-25-07, 11:27 AM

It's incredible what SVS achieved and managed to come close to the monster 18 inch(es) subs with only a 13.5 inch driver, "small" enclosure compared to the monsters, and $1499 price tag.
Craig, would you do another review for the PB13 Ultra/2 when it comes out or no?

mojomike

11-25-07, 11:27 AM

I would have expected more out of the Conquest than just a 2db difference. It's much larger, heavier, has an 18" vs 13" driver and 250 more watts. 2db difference seems underwhelming.

chengbin

11-25-07, 11:32 AM

I think so too. Considering an 18 inch driver have more than twice the surface area than a 13 inch, a 2dB increase over a 13 inch seems very small. Maybe the Conquest is overhyped?
BTW I forgot to say thank you to Craig for doing this comparison. Hope you get some rest after doing all this.
I'm just curious, but does your body feel uncomfortable with such high SPL bass?

craigsub

11-25-07, 11:32 AM

Mojomike ... 2 dB is actually more than most people realize ... and when one looks at how close the Ultra did compared to the LMS-5400 in a 200 liter enclosure with dual passive radiators, and (if memory serves) a 2000 watt pro amp ... yes, the Ultra is a great product.

I know from talks with Ed Mullen that there was a lot of effort to design the amp and driver together for the new Ultra.

If someone comes out with a good, legitimate 2000 watt plate amp, watch what happens to the COnquest.

craigsub

11-25-07, 11:37 AM

I think so too. Considering an 18 inch driver have more than twice the surface area than a 13 inch, a 2dB increase over a 13 inch seems very small. Maybe the Conquest is overhyped?

No ... I think the Ultra is under - rated. The Ultra can deliver a clean 108 dB @ 20 Hz @ 2 meters GP .. The Conquest can do a clean 110 dB.

mojomike

11-25-07, 11:37 AM

There have been folks on other threads requesting passive versions of the Epiks. I wonder about a Behringer powered Conquest. It shouldn't cost much more than a current powered Conquest.

mojomike

11-25-07, 11:44 AM

Hey Craig. You should ask your wife to rate the subs based on WAF. I'm thinking the ranking would be quite different from yours.:D

chengbin

11-25-07, 11:47 AM

How does the Conquest perform down low (10-20Hz)?What tune were you using when you play WOTW with the PB13?

chengbin

11-25-07, 11:47 AM

Hey Craig. You should ask your wife to rate the subs based on WAF. I'm thinking the ranking would be quite different from yours.:D

I recommend doing that too.

dbacksfan51

11-25-07, 11:49 AM

Craig,
Thanks for all the time work and $$$ that you have put into the testing you have done. You are a great asset to the A/V community.

To everyone that keeps asking "can you test this sub, can you add this to the specs, can you compare sub x to sub y" please stop. If the sub you want tested is not on the list, do it yourself, or buy the sub and send it to Craig.

craigsub

11-25-07, 11:56 AM

My wifes REALLY hates the A7-900 ... she "kinda" hates the Conquest .. and now finds the Ultra to be tolerable.

Keep in mind guys ... 110 points is a GREAT score for a sub. The only sub to "beat" it is also a sub which most rooms cannot handle.

Let's look at this ...

Here is the SVS PB-10 (15" wide x 19" high x 21" deep) next to the A7-900:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_1801.jpg

And here is the Valor (in the middle, 22H x 16.5W x 21D inches ) next to the Conquest.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_2274.jpg

Tobester

11-25-07, 12:09 PM

PB13 or Conquest? I have gone back and forth trying to decide between the two. But now another option rears is's head. If you take shipping into accout I could buy three (3) A5-350s for the price of one Conquest or roughly two and one half PB13s. If one A5-350 scores 96 what would be the score of two or three? Can multiple subs make up a 10 point difference? Will the musicality of a sub be improved by adding a second or third?
Thanks for your efforts Craig. Good information does not necessarily make for easy decisions but it does make things interesting.