I do have several screen shots of WOTW with other subs, but those were taken at 10 feet in our basement theater, which is a much easier room to drive. My concern is making sure people don't confuse the 2 different "room graphs".

Craig,

To everyone that keeps asking "can you test this sub, can you add this to the specs, can you compare sub x to sub y" please stop. If the sub you want tested is not on the list, do it yourself, or buy the sub and send it to Craig.


ditto

I would have expected more out of the Conquest than just a 2db difference. It's much larger, heavier, has an 18" vs 13" driver and 250 more watts. 2db difference seems underwhelming.

Underwhelming? not too long ago there was no ED A7 900 or PB13, lest we forget

The Conquest should score extremely well for h/t - I would say 54 or 55 min to a max of 60, and for music I would say min 48 max 53. So it could get as high as 113, or as 'low' as 102.



Hey - not bad if I do say so myself. :) I was just trying to go by what I was reading from other people for this beast.

A very respectable score.

Craig - thanks for taking time out of a 'holiday' schedule to do this sort of thing and post your results.

Everyone else (well, not everyone) - lets not please start with snarky comments like "Maybe the Conquest is overhyped" or the like. Most people here can figure out for themselve price, score wise, and looks, what sub fits best for them. I don't want to see this thread shut down because of stuff like this.

Don't forget - Epik is the new kid on the block h/t wise, whereas SVS has been around for years developing and revising their subs.

Thanks to Craig and his invaluable information, along with other peoples comments here and elsewhere - I've already made a decision as to what sub I'm going to buy to replace my PW-2200 (going to another room). Of course, I bought it last week, before Craigs update on this came out (obviously). Good to know my instincts and research here and other places proved right for me.

Looking forward to the other results Craig - I sure do envy you. Though today is Grey Cup - (for my US friends this is Canada's Superbowl) with my Bombers playing the Saskatchewan Roughriders - two prairie towns going at it in Toronto - known as the "banjo bowl' on steriods. Gotta go get ready for the party now!

Thanks again Craig - great work!

Goodness...the A7-900 is a beast! That thing would be lucky to fit in a garage :eek: Heck, you could use it as a bar table.

And yeah, I read somewhere in the Epik thread (at least I think it was that thread) that the amps aren't pushing the limits to what the drivers can actually pull, they are purposely less powerful. I think its said for protection to the driver.

But I can only imagine pushing it for every last watt it can handle, or maybe experimenting with dual Conquest drivers in a even more massive box like the A7-900 :D

I truly appreciate your efforts here Craig. It gives us regular Joes who aren't as knowledgeable, or don't have access to these subs to see how they compare against one another. I have been debating between the Conquest and the Ultra for a couple weeks, but have come to the realization that I just may have to get the Ultra based on size alone. However, I could use the Conquest as an end table if need be, but it would need to have the Rosenut veneer for asthetic reasons. With 1700 cubic feet, I'm running out of room fairly quickly. Is the room compensation and parametric eq on the Ultra something that I could really benefit from? It seems like quite a plus. This is a gawdawful amount of money to me, so I just want to make sure I do it right the first time. My original budget was 1k, but I'm starting to get the impression that it might be a good idea to spend a little more. Or.....am I just getting caught up in the 'hype' of the biggest and baddest, when something else would give me all I want and then some? Mainly HT, with 10% music use.

The Conquest is about 2 dB more powerful than the Ultra in the 20-31.5 Hz arena, on program material.

It does give a more visceral "WHOMP" on scenes like the WOTW scene.



I would have to agree with this assessment. After having both the Conquest and PB13 in my living room I returned the PB13. I was getting a lot more air movement with the Conquest, explosions actually felt like you were in the explosion with the Conquest, with PB13 it only felt like I was watching the explosion. Last night was unreal, we watched Polar Express on Blu-Ray and the Conquest simply made me feel as if I was on that train, crossing my fronts at 60hz the Conquest is ruler flat down to 13hz without any EQ in the front right corner of the room. The room is 16Wx13Lx9H. Both are great subs but if you have the room the Conquest just gives a Visceral impact than I was unable to get with the PB13.

It is true that the PB13 isn't as powerful as the Conquest, but I would NEVER say that the PB13 felt like I was watching the explosions.

Craig -

Thanks much for all your time and effort to help us all better understand what these new subs can do. I'm in the market for a new sub and I have found this thread to be very, very informative about what is currently available. Happy Holidays and thanks again!

Thanks for the hard work you do craig.. Slightly wishing i bought an ultra over a conquest but ahh shoot, this conquest sounds awesome so i can't really complain. It is an awesome sub.
@makeusleep,
Thanks for the valuable comparison between the two. Have you done lots of a/b tests between the two switching them back and forth? Which do prefer for music?
Thanks.

It is true that the PB13 isn't as powerful as the Conquest, but I would NEVER say that the PB13 felt like I was watching the explosions.

Without ever experiencing the Conquest I would agree with you. Having both in my living room the PB13 is more like watching the explosion when compared to the Conquest.

I think the scores for the Conquest and A5-350 are stellar. 60 on HT is a monster and 50 for music matches the Fathom and DD18. Having twice the firepower with equal sound quality of those two subs is an amazing accomplishment.

I guess my only question on the Conquest is what does it lack for music in comparison to the U13 and 900?

The eD sub score cracking the top 10 for a $600 shipped???... :confused: :eek::D. That price won't be staying the same for long.

Craig, great job as always...looking forward to more.

The Conquest is about 2 dB more powerful than the Ultra in the 20-31.5 Hz arena, on program material.
.

Craig is this from the previous 2 meter sweep of the Ultra or the new sweep?

@makeusleep,
Thanks for the valuable comparison between the two. Have you done lots of a/b tests between the two switching them back and forth? Which do prefer for music?
Thanks.

I compared both for 3 weeks, both in the right front corner without EQ. When I had the Conquest crossed over at 80HZ with the front 3 speakers I did not have a ruler flat response like I did with the PB13 ultra at 80hz and music did not seem as tight when compared to the PB13 ultra. After changing the crossover to 60hz with the front 3 speakers I was able to get a ruler flat response with the Conquest. Music performance was now just as tight and clean as with the PB13 but with the added plus of more visceral impact. Take for instance the "Scary Music" SACD on the first track from Sleepy Hollow the thunder with the Conquest actually sounds and feels like you are outside experiencing a thunderstorm compared to the PB13 which sounds good but just does not have the visceral impact and feeling of "being there" experience that I had with the Conquest. To me, the Conquest is the easy choice as long as you have the space.

Have you tried crossing the PB13 at 60Hz?

I compared both for 3 weeks, both in the right front corner without EQ. When I had the Conquest crossed over at 80HZ with the front 3 speakers I did not have a ruler flat response like I did with the PB13 ultra at 80hz and music did not seem as tight when compared to the PB13 ultra. After changing the crossover to 60hz with the front 3 speakers I was able to get a ruler flat response with the Conquest. Music performance was now just as tight and clean as with the PB13 but with the added plus of more visceral impact. Take for instance the "Scary Music" SACD on the first track from Sleepy Hollow the thunder with the Conquest actually sounds and feels like you are outside experiencing a thunderstorm compared to the PB13 which sounds good but just does not have the visceral impact and feeling of "being there" experience that I had with the Conquest. To me, the Conquest is the easy choice as long as you have the space.


It is good to hear form someone who has compared them both in the same room. Thanks for your opinion. Good stuff.

makeusleep ... Sometimes, the consistency in products does come through ... it was in the upper bass (in subwoofer terms) that the Conquest lost a bit, in contrast to the Ultra .. If one has larger mains, and can cross at 60 Hz or lower, the Conquest moves further ahead of the Ultra ... but we have to use the 80 Hz standard for these tests, as subs are expected to perform well to that frequency.

And, as you likely noticed, it isn't that the Conquest is "bad" at the upper limits, it just prefers a lower crossover.

Your write up is excellent ...thanks for adding to the thread. :)

Have you tried crossing the PB13 at 60Hz?

Yes, it did not make any difference in sound quality since the PB13 was already flat at 80hz, performance was the same whether crossed over at 60hz or 80hz with the PB13. Like I said both subs are great but with the Conquest I was treated to noticeable increase in air movement and visceral impact when compared to the PB13. I am guessing the 18 inch driver is the cause for the greater air movement and visceral impact compared to the 13.5 inch driver in the PB13. I think I have said enough about what I noticed in my living room. I do not want to derail this thread into a Conquest vs Ultra thread. Craig does a great job of giving us info on subs of all different sizes and features and I don't want to turn the focus away from that. Thanks Craig for your time and effort.

makeusleep ... Sometimes, the consistency in products does come through ... it was in the upper bass (in subwoofer terms) that the Conquest lost a bit, in contrast to the Ultra .. If one has larger mains, and can cross at 60 Hz or lower, the Conquest moves further ahead of the Ultra ... but we have to use the 80 Hz standard for these tests, as subs are expected to perform well to that frequency.

Conquest having trouble with upper bass up to 80Hz? I must say I'm a bit shocked by that news. When I measured the Conquest there was no roll off in that region. Roll off began at about 105Hz and it was ruler flat from 20Hz up to 100Hz.

Now my Tower was not ruler flat above 65Hz, but the Conquest was a different story.

Conquest having trouble with upper bass up to 80Hz? I must say I'm a bit shocked by that news. When I measured the Conquest there was no roll off in that region. Roll off began at about 105Hz and it was ruler flat from 20Hz up to 100Hz.

Now my Tower was not ruler flat above 65Hz, but the Conquest was a different story.

Brian ... check your PM.

makeusleep ... Sometimes, the consistency in products does come through ... it was in the upper bass (in subwoofer terms) that the Conquest lost a bit, in contrast to the Ultra .. If one has larger mains, and can cross at 60 Hz or lower, the Conquest moves further ahead of the Ultra ... but we have to use the 80 Hz standard for these tests, as subs are expected to perform well to that frequency.

And, as you likely noticed, it isn't that the Conquest is "bad" at the upper limits, it just prefers a lower crossover.

Your write up is excellent ...thanks for adding to the thread. :)

If judging from a 80hz crossover the Conquest still had the advantage in the visceral impact dept. but the Ultra produced tighter and better sounding bass and would be the better choice for music at 80hz and it seems your scores for the two reflect that. Once I crossed the Conquest at 60hz it sounded just as tight and musical as the Ultra and also increased the air movement and visceral impact. I would venture to guess if you ranked the Conquest at 60hz it would probably match or exceed the PB13 music score and also increase the HT score a point or two.:eek: Again..thanks Craig for your time and effort.

If judging from a 80hz crossover the Conquest still had the advantage in the visceral impact dept. but the Ultra produced tighter and better sounding bass and would be the better choice for music at 80hz and it seems your scores for the two reflect that. Once I crossed the Conquest at 60hz it sounded just as tight and musical as the Ultra and also increased the air movement and visceral impact. I would venture to guess if you ranked the Conquest at 60hz it would probably match or exceed the PB13 music score and also increase the HT score a point or two.:eek: Again..thanks Craig for your time and effort.

Agreed .. and if we used a 120 Hz crossover, the music ratings would probably also change.

Two years ago, a recommendation between the Axiom EP-500 and PB12-Ultra often came down to the crossover used.

When one is looking at which system to get, this whole thread is meant to help narrow choices, not MAKE choices. That is also why I have a lot of music opinions added to the mix ... rather than just my own.

On a side note, isn't it amazing how far performance has come in 2 years ?

One last question, does the Conquest have more impact than the PB13 at middle to middle-high volume or are they the same.

The Conquest is always more "menacing" than the Ultra ... even at moderate levels.

This being said, a single Ultra has taken the place of the Hsu VTF-3 HO in our family room. It is even more difficult a room to drive than is the theater room ... My kids are watching "The Mummy", and the room is shaking.

These differences require back to back listening to notice .. and either the Ultra or the Conquest will deliver terrific bass.

Craig, awesome work from you as usual, thank you for allowing us all to benefit from it.

Cheers,
Ross

Ross... whenever you're ready, I'll head up your way and we can do some subwoofer testing of our own. I've gotten familiar with Room EQ Wizard and may soon buy a copy of TrueRTA as well. Should be a lot of fun! :)

I'm always amazed at how much time and passion Craig devotes to testing and comparing subwoofers and sharing the results. Not all of us have the time and financial resources to do so. There will always be critics and naysayer but I for one am glad there are people like Craig on AVS.

Ross... whenever you're ready, I'll head up your way and we can do some subwoofer testing of our own. I've gotten familiar with Room EQ Wizard and may soon buy a copy of TrueRTA as well. Should be a lot of fun! :)
That would be awesome to have you up to speed on software for running measurments, as this is not a task I enjoy. I have a BFD still in the box so maybe we could use it to equalize each sub before listening.

I want to tag along also :) I have a good set of ears but not all that up on the EQ side of things.

24x26x9 converted garage with wood floors. 7.1, probably Jamo speakers for the front and surround. I listened to a 15 inch Jamo sub a local dealer had that was a demo and had cosmetic damage. Listed just under 2K, he was going to sell it for under 1K. It really rumbled, didn't seem clear, tight. The dealer suggested a new 10 inch Jamo, 650 watt. I haven't been able to find much on here about Jamo. Didn't really want to go with a 10"

Pioneer VSX-94TXH receiver

SVS or HSU seem to be about what I need. I don't want the round svs or the turbo hsu. What do you think?

I guess I posted this in the wrong place. I guess I'll just go to best buy to find a sub that will math my pioneer VSX-94TXH receiver and 60 inch Kuro Elite. I'm sure they will have a great one.

I guess I posted this in the wrong place. I guess I'll just go to best buy to find a sub that will math my pioneer VSX-94TXH receiver and 60 inch Kuro Elite. I'm sure they will have a great one.Start you own thread and you will get some assistance.

I really hope this is a sarcastic post and you wouldn't really plan on buying a sub from BB after dropping close to 9 grand on that TV and receiver alone. While I am new to this forum, I spent about two weeks reading the various brand threads trying to decide which one was best for me. I ended up ordering an eD A7-450 last Wednesday based on feedback from the forum. My only advice for you is to read about the other brands, such as SVS, HSU, Epik, and eD, to try and decide which one you want. The A7-450 is probably way more than I need, but I wanted bass that I could FEEL through my body. I've included my system specs below if it helps...

Display - Pioneer Elite PRO-150FD
Receiver - Integra DTR-7.8
Blu Ray - Pioneer Elite 95FD
Towers - Paradigm Studio 100's v.4
Center - Paradigm Millenia 30
Rears - Paradigm ADP-590
Sub - eD A7-450 (order status: awaiting woodshop :(
Drama

I guess I posted this in the wrong place. I guess I'll just go to best buy to find a sub that will math my pioneer VSX-94TXH receiver and 60 inch Kuro Elite. I'm sure they will have a great one.

I only have about 2000 hours tied up in this, lord knows how much money, and a link to the summary in my signature.

Think you can figure it out from here ? :p:D

Hey Craig,

I want to chime in a let you know how much your efforts are appreciated. I too am looking for a sub and with all of the entries of late, it is getting a little hard to keep up with.

The Castle, A7S-450, Knight, Caliber, and A5-350 are on the short list. For some reason I am really interested in the Castle and A7S-450 though. Do you have any early impressions? Can't wait to see the test results. I'd be interested to see a break down of price catagories and your picks in each. The E5-350 looks to be a great performer for the money and I would be curious to see if spending another $500 on any sub would yield enough of an overall difference to warrant the money.

Thanks again for your work, I will definitely put the info to use in my decision.

Johnny_Drama,
I spoke to the guys at ED at length about this sub and it has my attention. Can't wait to see your impressions.

PB13 or Conquest? I have gone back and forth trying to decide between the two. But now another option rears is's head. If you take shipping into accout I could buy three (3) A5-350s for the price of one Conquest or roughly two and one half PB13s. If one A5-350 scores 96 what would be the score of two or three? Can multiple subs make up a 10 point difference? Will the musicality of a sub be improved by adding a second or third?
Thanks for your efforts Craig. Good information does not necessarily make for easy decisions but it does make things interesting.

Good questions.

I only have about 2000 hours tied up in this, lord knows how much money, and a link to the summary in my signature.

Think you can figure it out from here ? :p:D

Sorry for the sarcasm. Just frustrated at the choices. I have spent a lot of time reading the posts on the forum (nowhere near 2000). The list with rankings you compiled is the only thing I have found the puts some numbers and reason with opinion. It is what helped me narrow my choices to SVS and HSU. But frequently on your thread, when people have asked for help other people have offered advice and suggested other subs based on the room size, etc.

I didn't in any way mean to sound like you were some paid customer service rep. that I was attacking. Though in hindsight, thats exactly how I sounded. Sorry.

I will start my own thread.

Thanks Drama. What made you go with the Integra? Paradigm?

Its going to be pretty interesting to see how the Valor compares to the eD A5-350. Since I got mine shipped (Valor that is) for Exactly $606, which is pretty much exactly the same price as the A5-350 at $600 shipped.

Already there is obvious differences, the A5-350 is ported, about twice as heavy, a little uglier (from what I've heard ;)) and has a few hundred more watts of amp power than the Valor.

I am going to take a wild guess and say that the A5-350 will be FAR above the Valor in points. Definitely with HT, but music they might come pretty close. This is going to be a long 1-2 weeks of waiting for the crackdown :D Especially since I probably wont get my Valor 1-2 weeks from now.

On a side note, isn't it amazing how far performance has come in 2 years ?

I wonder if this has more to do with what driver manufacturers are doing than box builders. Any thoughts?

the box "evolution" will occur soon enough, particularly when they area able to make spherical enclosures on the cheap, and as composite materials become stronger and lighter, wood will get replaced

[QUOTE=craigsub;12301653]Ross ... for actual delivered performance, the Conquest is appx. 4 dB more powerful than the A5-350 ... so yes, dual A5-350's will exceed a single Conquest, by a small margin, for less $$$$.


craig,
thanks for all your work...
what do you think the score would be for two of the a5-350?

Craig--you rock!!!

Thanks for posting the PB13U and Fathom 113 stuff as requested!

And big thanks for the great "research" for us!

Just keep feeding the addiction, eh?!

Looking forward to the PB13/2 someday....

Trying to come up with a points "guess" for dual subs is pretty hard to do. There are so many other reasons to look at duals ... in some rooms, duals can help smooth a response. In some rooms, a corner placement for one sub is the best.

Some subs easily stack - sealed especially.

The A5-350 would be hard to stack, and eD has other options available, for more output.

Craig,
Great job. Do you think the A7-900 would benefit even more(not that it needs it) with a more powerful amp like Conquest? It would seem that each woofer could handle that 1300 watt amp rather than share it.

Craig,
Great job. Do you think the A7-900 would benefit even more(not that it needs it) with a more powerful amp like Conquest? It would seem that each woofer could handle that 1300 watt amp rather than share it.

A better option might be dual A7-450s.

Since ED put that amp into their single 18 box, I can assume(dangerous word) that the A7-900 would benefit from a more powerful amp.

Mojo and MK ... You are both right. The A7-900 can easily handle more power, and the idea of an A7-450 pair makes a lot of sense.

With the design eD used for the A7-450, stacking them is easy to do, but you also get the option of separating them.

thanks craig... awesome work...

just put in an order for the a5-350. ed tech said that two a5-350 would be about the par with sound quality and a little more output of an a7-700.

my room is about 4500 ft3 with 15' ceiling and open to a kitchen and behind a couch is a small work/computer area. kind of like a z shape. currently i have two hsu 3.3. one upfront and one behind the couch. i am to replace the hsu with ed. and may put two a5-350 up front. what do you think?

what would you do with this room, craig?

Hey guys, is there any online info about room size and appropriate subwoofer for that sq/ footage? My rooms much smaller than almost all here (basically 2 rooms of 13'x11') I've been unable to find much info along these lines. But I love to hear about the 'visceral impact' that 18" drivers deliver, but how do you find out what size driver will give equal visceral impact of 18" drivers, but in diff. sized rooms.

Kinda esoteric, but important to learn about imo.

And Craig, "Some subs easily stack - sealed especially"...so how does the bass change from 2 stacked on top of each other vs. 2 subs, say placed right next to ones mains??

chris

Broad generality, but when you co-locate (stack) two subs you increase the output (i.e. the pair will play louder, with the same amount of power being sent, than if they were spaced apart). Placing 2 subs in different locations in a room helps eliminate peaks and nulls, providing a smoother, flatter frequency response.

I am lucky in that I put my subs in the 2 front opposite corners and still get a 5 db's increase. It all depends on the room.

Hey guys, is there any online info about room size and appropriate subwoofer for that sq/ footage?

Velodyne has something like that at their site but it will only recommend their own subs of course:

http://www.velodyne.com/wproduct/whproduct_new.aspx?sid=471t690w

Trying to come up with a points "guess" for dual subs is pretty hard to do. There are so many other reasons to look at duals ... in some rooms, duals can help smooth a response. In some rooms, a corner placement for one sub is the best.

Some subs easily stack - sealed especially.

The A5-350 would be hard to stack, and eD has other options available, for more output.

Ohhhhh.....stacked A7-900's.....2 in each corner!!!!!


Splotto

Thanks to 4 straight days of "off time" with a lot of bad weather, we were able to wrap up the testing of the A5-350 and Conquest.

The Conquest is a remarkable product for the money. While I try to steer clear of absolute remarks about size, fit and finish ... it is about as large a subwoofer as "most" homes can stand. It comes very close to the twin 18 inch driver eD A7-900 in overall performance, while retaining a "liveable" size.

On music it is tremendous ... and on home theater, it is the 2nd best performer we have had.

The score ? ... Home Theater 60 ... Music 50, for a total of 110.

The eD A5-350 is an amazing value. Yes, it is ugly. I even think it is ugly. But it delivers a deep an palpable bass, and is terrific on music. It loses a bit of musicality in the 40-80 Hz arena to subs like the PB-13 Ultra, but overall, it is quite listenable.

The Score ? ... Home Theater 50 ... Music 46, for a total of 96

Thanks Craig, even though I couldn't wait to order the A5-350 I am glad to hear it faired well in your testing. I am sure it will fill my 2000 cubic feet room just fine and I think I can stand the so-so performance between 40 and 80 as I am getting the A6 - 6T6 - Tower Pair to handle the front left and right.

Thanks again!

I'll have to say that it is quite an accomplishment for the ED to have outperformed some very stiff competition, especially for the price. The fact that it scored higher than the Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo, SVS PB12-Plus/2, and last years SVS PB12-Ultra is really saying a lot. I may just be ordering one of those here pretty quick....unfinished of course, so I can veneer it myself. This baby should rock 1700 cubic ft.:D

Thanks to 4 straight days of "off time" with a lot of bad weather, we were able to wrap up the testing of the A5-350 and Conquest.

The Conquest is a remarkable product for the money. While I try to steer clear of absolute remarks about size, fit and finish ... it is about as large a subwoofer as "most" homes can stand. It comes very close to the twin 18 inch driver eD A7-900 in overall performance, while retaining a "liveable" size.

On music it is tremendous ... and on home theater, it is the 2nd best performer we have had.

The score ? ... Home Theater 60 ... Music 50, for a total of 110.

The eD A5-350 is an amazing value. Yes, it is ugly. I even think it is ugly. But it delivers a deep an palpable bass, and is terrific on music. It loses a bit of musicality in the 40-80 Hz arena to subs like the PB-13 Ultra, but overall, it is quite listenable.

The Score ? ... Home Theater 50 ... Music 46, for a total of 96

Craig,

Thank you so much for this! I finally made my mind up based on your great analysis. Going thru your thread was a real joy. After reading and then reading some more, I went from wanting to get the HSU HO, HSU 3.3, SVS 20-39 but fianally ordered the eD A5-350 today. I can't wait to fill the void!

Now the tough part, selling how beautiful it looks to the wfe... :o

BR

Craig, this is probably a stupid question, but on your list of scored subs, how many of those are sealed? (I just checked the Fathom, and it is)

Ohhhhh.....stacked A7-900's.....2 in each corner!!!!!


Splotto

i'm actually considering that exact set-up :D

i'm trying to figure out if i would stack them side-by-side with the ports firing up at the ceiling

or stack them on top of each other with the ports firing toward the middle of the front wall

Broad generality, but when you co-locate (stack) two subs you increase the output (i.e. the pair will play louder, with the same amount of power being sent, than if they were spaced apart). Placing 2 subs in different locations in a room helps eliminate peaks and nulls, providing a smoother, flatter frequency response.

Couldn't they just be placed right next to each other and still have the stacked effect?

And wouldn't this depend on what FRQ point one is looking at?

Don't 20hz sound waves travel 18 feet or so? ( just a guess) but say you had 2 subs within that distance (lets less than 18 feet) then the bass would be boosted (doubled) +6db's at that Frq point....

I thought thats how I understood it but am probably wrong.....

craig,

When you test the Valor can you find out it's tuning point, or it's -3 db drop off?

I'm curious as to how 2 of these stacked or co-located would do against my 2 year old PC-Ultra mainly for Hometheater and game usage......

i'm actually considering that exact set-up :D

i'm trying to figure out if i would stack them side-by-side with the ports firing up at the ceiling

or stack them on top of each other with the ports firing toward the middle of the front wall

Can you get a fork lift through the door?

Couldn't they just be placed right next to each other and still have the stacked effect?

And wouldn't this depend on what FRQ point one is looking at?

Don't 20hz sound waves travel 18 feet or so? ( just a guess) but say you had 2 subs within that distance (lets less than 18 feet) then the bass would be boosted (doubled) +6db's at that Frq point....

I thought thats how I understood it but am probably wrong..... You could be correct. That's why I said "broad generality." :)

In an attempt to make my wife feel better about its looks, I put the Conquest into a horizontal position tonight. I had to re-eq a bit, but that was minor.

It looks much less intrusive this way, and the driver is better coupled to our floor ... even though the measured response is comparable, it tightened the bass a bit.

Highly recommended on all counts to try this with a Conquest. :)

The only way your wife will ever like the Conquest is right after you threaten her with the A7-900. :p "Look, honey. It's almost half the size!"

... or you give her a diamond ring just as big

Alright, I just got done reading through almost all of the pages here and what Craig has offered. Thanks so much Craig.....excellent work! It has really helped narrow down my decision. Subwoofers currently on my short list are:

1. Epik Conquest
2. Epik Tower
3. Elemental Designs A7-450
4. Two Elemental Designs A5-350's
5. Possibly one or two of the smaller Epiks

Just prior to reading this thread my top picks would have been:

1. SVS PB13 Ultra
2. Velodyne DD15 or DD18 (used)
3. Fathom F113 (although this was out of my price range and there are no used ones available since it is a relatively new product).

In my mind, in the near $1000 best bang for the buck it would seem logical that the soon to be released (can someone tell me if any of these have made it to actual homes yet?) Elemental Designs A7-450 will be top dog. This is based on the amazing performance of its $600 smaller brother (A5-350) and Craigs overall top pick A7-900. Obviously the guys at ED know what they are doing and I have no reason to believe the A7-450 wont rank above the SVS PB13U and rank at or above that of the Epik Conquest on Craigs chart. Ive been wrong before though;) One question, when will anybody get their hands on an A7-450 (Craig, are you anywhere near getting one of these for a test out of curiosity) and is there any way to give it a more upscale finish? Thanks in advance for hearing one of my first posts in a long time.

PS- Am I to understand the A7-450 will cost $1300 with shipping included as stated on the blog below? If this is the case, it will come in, shipped for roughly $350 less than the SVS and $450 less than the Epik Conquest. If it peforms on par or better then why would anybody order anything different? Its got a good five year warranty to boot. The SVS has a three year warranty, while the Epik has a seven year on driver and two year on electronics.

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=190

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=191

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=183

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=182

I really hope this is a sarcastic post and you wouldn't really plan on buying a sub from BB after dropping close to 9 grand on that TV and receiver alone. While I am new to this forum, I spent about two weeks reading the various brand threads trying to decide which one was best for me. I ended up ordering an eD A7-450 last Wednesday based on feedback from the forum. My only advice for you is to read about the other brands, such as SVS, HSU, Epik, and eD, to try and decide which one you want. The A7-450 is probably way more than I need, but I wanted bass that I could FEEL through my body. I've included my system specs below if it helps...

Display - Pioneer Elite PRO-150FD
Receiver - Integra DTR-7.8
Blu Ray - Pioneer Elite 95FD
Towers - Paradigm Studio 100's v.4
Center - Paradigm Millenia 30
Rears - Paradigm ADP-590
Sub - eD A7-450 (order status: awaiting woodshop :(
Drama

Johny, any updates on when you will receive your A7-450? Are you going with the black speckly paint or some other finish? Do they offer other finishes? I havent called them yet for info. Out of curiosity, what made you decide to go with this over the Epik Conquest? Maybe you figured it was going to be several hundred less in cost for an almost identical performing product?

Alright, I just got done reading through almost all of the pages here and what Craig has offered. Thanks so much Craig.....excellent work! It has really helped narrow down my decision. Subwoofers currently on my short list are:

1. Epik Conquest
2. Epik Tower
3. Elemental Designs A7-450
4. Two Elemental Designs A5-350's
5. Possibly one or two of the smaller Epiks

Just prior to reading this thread my top picks would have been:

1. SVS PB13 Ultra
2. Velodyne DD15 or DD18 (used)
3. Fathom F113 (although this was out of my price range and there are no used ones available since it is a relatively new product).

In my mind, in the near $1000 best bang for the buck it would seem logical that the soon to be released (can someone tell me if any of these have made it to actual homes yet?) Elemental Designs A7-450 will be top dog. This is based on the amazing performance of its $600 smaller brother (A5-350) and Craigs overall top pick A7-900. Obviously the guys at ED know what they are doing and I have no reason to believe the A7-450 wont rank above the SVS PB13U and rank at or above that of the Epik Conquest on Craigs chart. Ive been wrong before though;) One question, when will anybody get their hands on an A7-450 (Craig, are you anywhere near getting one of these for a test out of curiosity) and is there any way to give it a more upscale finish? Thanks in advance for hearing one of my first posts in a long time.

PS- Am I to understand the A7-450 will cost $1300 with shipping included as stated on the blog below? If this is the case, it will come in, shipped for roughly $350 less than the SVS and $450 less than the Epik Conquest. If it peforms on par or better then why would anybody order anything different? Its got a good five year warranty to boot. The SVS has a three year warranty, while the Epik has a seven year on driver and two year on electronics.

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=190

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=191

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=183

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=182

Toss the Ultra back into the mix, and any of the choices are excellent. I don't like telling people to "buy A over B", because I am not in your room, don't know your decor decisions ... etc ... :)

Hello,


Quote:Highly recommended on all counts to try this with a Conquest.

I have my Conquest horizontal also, front wall centered under the screen. It works great in that position.

rmlowz

i'm actually considering that exact set-up :D

i'm trying to figure out if i would stack them side-by-side with the ports firing up at the ceiling

or stack them on top of each other with the ports firing toward the middle of the front wall

I am going to mod 4 of them into HT chairs. :-)

Splotto

I personally would purchase two A5-350s for one reason -

When you have two subwoofers in one room - in opposite areas of the room - the bass becomes more rich by a 1000%.


I'm sure someone will echo those sentiments.

Alright, I just got done reading through almost all of the pages here and what Craig has offered. Thanks so much Craig.....excellent work! It has really helped narrow down my decision. Subwoofers currently on my short list are:

1. Epik Conquest
2. Epik Tower
3. Elemental Designs A7-450
4. Two Elemental Designs A5-350's
5. Possibly one or two of the smaller Epiks

Just prior to reading this thread my top picks would have been:

1. SVS PB13 Ultra
2. Velodyne DD15 or DD18 (used)
3. Fathom F113 (although this was out of my price range and there are no used ones available since it is a relatively new product).

In my mind, in the near $1000 best bang for the buck it would seem logical that the soon to be released (can someone tell me if any of these have made it to actual homes yet?) Elemental Designs A7-450 will be top dog. This is based on the amazing performance of its $600 smaller brother (A5-350) and Craigs overall top pick A7-900. Obviously the guys at ED know what they are doing and I have no reason to believe the A7-450 wont rank above the SVS PB13U and rank at or above that of the Epik Conquest on Craigs chart. Ive been wrong before though;) One question, when will anybody get their hands on an A7-450 (Craig, are you anywhere near getting one of these for a test out of curiosity) and is there any way to give it a more upscale finish? Thanks in advance for hearing one of my first posts in a long time.

PS- Am I to understand the A7-450 will cost $1300 with shipping included as stated on the blog below? If this is the case, it will come in, shipped for roughly $350 less than the SVS and $450 less than the Epik Conquest. If it peforms on par or better then why would anybody order anything different? Its got a good five year warranty to boot. The SVS has a three year warranty, while the Epik has a seven year on driver and two year on electronics.

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=190

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=191

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=183

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=182

Britton,
I can confirm that the A7-450 is $1300 shipped within the continental U.S. as I ordered mine last Wednesday. It is not posted on their website as they are being made on a custom basis right now. Give them a call if you decide to go that direction as its roughly a 4 week wait right now. *UPDATE* eD confirmed this morning that ALL HT subs need to be ordered by today to receive by X-Mas. I researched for roughly two weeks before deciding on the eD sub. My max to spend was $1300, which put me with an Epik Tower, SVS PB12-plus/2, or HSU VTF-3 with turbo. It was a difficult decision, but I ended up going with my gut, which told me the A7-450 was close to, if not the best sub next to the A7-900.

I'm sure that A7-450 is going to be a lot sub for the money. I'm curious how it will compare with the Conquest.

Hello,


Quote:Highly recommended on all counts to try this with a Conquest.

I have my Conquest horizontal also, front wall centered under the screen. It works great in that position.

rmlowz

rmlowz, if I recall correctly from some weeks ago, aren't you the guy that had the Def Tech Trinity, Danley 20, DD18, Fathom 113, dual THX Ultra Klipsh, among others?

If so, I've been waiting to hear your feedback on how the Conquest compares in your room with the aforementioned subs.....can I assume it is a keeper? :)

Hello,



Yes I posted my opinion in the Epik thread. It is a Keeper for sure!

rmlowz

does anyone know the weight of the conquest? couldnt find it on their web site. thx.

Chad has said its around 250 pounds.. Its like 366 pounds shipped though because it comes in a huge crate.

Can you get a fork lift through the door?

i hope so, i will need it to remove my 6 old def techs :D

i have double doors going into the foyer but i'm not sure about the height clearance for the fork-lift ;)

I stumbled on this very imformative thread and wanted to thank everyone for their input and especially Craig for his efforts. Seeing the size of some of these beasts and that some folks have multiples of them, size is obviously not a big consideration for some. The WAF has been mentioned and size obviously plays a large part in that. As such, I took the list and looked up dimensions specs and calculated displacement. Note these volumes are not the internal enclosure volumes but the external volumes, most including feet and grills, for comparing the sub sizes...

Elemental Designs A7-900: 19.54ft^3
Epik Conquest: 13.75ft^3
SVS PB13-Ultra: 7.05ft^3
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): unknown
JL Audio Fathom 113: 3.63ft^3
Velodyne DD-18: 5.44ft^3
Def Tech Trinity: 5.95ft^3
ACI Maestro: 5.81ft^3 (amp not included)
eD A5-350: 6.83ft^3
JL Audio Fathom 112: 2.86ft^3

It's obvious that the $ for some of the JL products buys you this caliber performance in 1/2 - 1/4 the volume of the other subs listed. Almost shocking how small the F113 is compared to the top 3 subs. I thought the SVS PB-13 Ultra was a bit smaller than the eD A5-350 but the opposite is true... tossup for the most part. There's been some PB13-Ultra vs Conquest discussion and it's amazing that for the $ and size that this is even a comparison.

Just thought this might give some insight into sizes for those of us that size plays a major factor in a sub purchase. It's looking like for a combination of performance, size, price, and aesthetics, I'm leaning towards the SVS PB13-Ultra.

Matt

Velodyne has something like that at their site but it will only recommend their own subs of course:

http://www.velodyne.com/wproduct/whproduct_new.aspx?sid=471t690w

Interesting link OTK, and Thanks. But my first choices turned out to be their own 1812 or the dd18 lol But it's a beginning ;)

I stumbled on this very imformative thread and wanted to thank everyone for their input and especially Craig for his efforts. Seeing the size of some of these beasts and that some folks have multiples of them, size is obviously not a big consideration for some. The WAF has been mentioned and size obviously plays a large part in that. As such, I took the list and looked up dimensions specs and calculated displacement. Note these volumes are not the internal enclosure volumes but the external volumes, most including feet and grills, for comparing the sub sizes...

Elemental Designs A7-900: 19.54ft^3
Epik Conquest: 13.75ft^3
SVS PB13-Ultra: 7.05ft^3
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): unknown
JL Audio Fathom 113: 3.63ft^3
Velodyne DD-18: 5.44ft^3
Def Tech Trinity: 5.95ft^3
ACI Maestro: 5.81ft^3 (amp not included)
eD A5-350: 6.83ft^3
JL Audio Fathom 112: 2.86ft^3

It's obvious that the $ for some of the JL products buys you this caliber performance in 1/2 - 1/4 the volume of the other subs listed. Almost shocking how small the F113 is compared to the top 3 subs. I thought the SVS PB-13 Ultra was a bit smaller than the eD A5-350 but the opposite is true... tossup for the most part. There's been some PB13-Ultra vs Conquest discussion and it's amazing that for the $ and size that this is even a comparison.

Just thought this might give some insight into sizes for those of us that size plays a major factor in a sub purchase. It's looking like for a combination of performance, size, price, and aesthetics, I'm leaning towards the SVS PB13-Ultra.

Matt

That's cool info, Matt.

I'm really surprised at the small displacement of the Trinity. It looks huge.

Couldn't they just be placed right next to each other and still have the stacked effect?

And wouldn't this depend on what FRQ point one is looking at?

Don't 20hz sound waves travel 18 feet or so? ( just a guess) but say you had 2 subs within that distance (lets less than 18 feet) then the bass would be boosted (doubled) +6db's at that Frq point....

I thought thats how I understood it but am probably wrong.....

Speed of sound is roughly 340m/s (temperature dependent) Length of 1 cycle (wavelength) at 20hz is thus (340m/s) / (20/s)= 17m. A "perfect" superposition (doubling) of waves would thus be about quarter of that or 4.25m (or 14ft). That also assumes you are exactly between the two speakers.

I'd suggest bass boosts would definitely be frequency and spatially dependant. Course room effects would not be insignificant and can't be easily calculated. Hence trial an error on speaker positioning.

I haven't really added anything new here, but I hope I've helped to explain the bass boost by frequency 'theory' calc. re: wave superposition

Speed of sound is roughly 340m/s (temperature dependent) Length of 1 cycle (wavelength) at 20hz is thus (340m/s) / (20/s)= 17m. A "perfect" superposition (doubling) of waves would thus be about quarter of that or 4.25m (or 14ft). That also assumes you are exactly between the two speakers.

I'd suggest bass boosts would definitely be frequency and spatially dependant. Course room effects would not be insignificant and can't be easily calculated. Hence trial an error on speaker positioning.

I haven't really added anything new here, but I hope I've helped to explain the bass boost by frequency 'theory' calc. re: wave superposition

Interesting, so in other words, if 2 subs were located apart, you could theoretically get the "bass boost" but it would depend on specific Frq's and actual distance apart as well as any room reflections etc etc......

I guess thats why the easiest way to run 2 subs is to co-locate them or stack them, keep them next to each other etc etc.....

Am I making any sense.....

Craig,

what are you using these days to eq your subs? the sms or true rta with a beheringer?

I'm sure that A7-450 is going to be a lot sub for the money. I'm curious how it will compare with the Conquest.

My money is on the eD sub. They just seem to make one heck of a product. It will be interesting to see how the two compare. I just wish eD would come up with a more pleasing finish.

Interesting, so in other words, if 2 subs were located apart, you could theoretically get the "bass boost" but it would depend on specific Frq's and actual distance apart as well as any room reflections etc etc......

I guess this is way the easiest way to run 2 subs is to co-locate them or stack them, keep them next to each other etc etc.....

Am I making any sense.....


Yes, and in the same sense you could get an area of no base; destructive interference. Same theory is used for noise cancelling and Ed's DECA.

Stacked works good as the two sources are effectively equal distant so are almost perfectly constructive.

My money is on the eD sub. They just seem to make one heck of a product. It will be interesting to see how the two compare. I just wish eD would come up with a more pleasing finish.

would you mind sharing on why you think your "money is on the eD"? just curious ...
do you have either? do you know anything in particular about them other than craig's comments thus far that makes you think this? again, just curious.

It would be very difficult to know which sub would perform better, but if we assumed performance to be similar, the eD would present a better bargain at a cost of $300 less plus the price includes shipping.

Again, this is all based on performance assumptions.

I'd suggest it is too early to make guesses on the ED vs Conquest. We haven't seen scores from the smaller Epic subwoofers.

If a castle or tower scores similar to the ED A5-350 then I'd expect the A7-450 to be similar to the Conquest in performance. Similar as in 1-3 points and being hard to differentiate without side by side comparison.

The ED A7-900 isn't a good comparison vs the conquest. We can't assume much as one has twice as many drivers and appears to be amplifier restricted.

In any case I think the average audiophile would be very happy with any comparable subwoofer from SVS, AXIOM, HSU, EPIC, JL, or ED. If you are a bass junkie then you are likely to never be satisfied.

would you mind sharing on why you think your "money is on the eD"? just curious ...
do you have either? do you know anything in particular about them other than craig's comments thus far that makes you think this? again, just curious.

It's my money I can put it wherever I want. I have heard neither sub but from what I have read in this thread and others I think eD makes a solid product and if what they can do with a $600 sub with a 15" driver an 18" driver and larger amplifier and cabinet I think eD will do quit nicely. It should be fun to see how it will perform. :)

Hey Craig,

Just wondering if you plan on testing the Seaton Sound SubMersive1 ?

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=183

The second sub shown in this pick is my custom A7S-450. The first A7S-450 out the door. I am very happy with the output and clean bass from this sub. I am using it in an enclosed 11,000 + CF room. Lots of bass output. I am running it set at the 1:00 setting on the sub and -8 db on my AVR. Put on the Hulk in Dolby Digital Plus for my son and I to watch. We sit 9-11 feet from the sub and the impact from the explosions made you feel like you were there. I have great sound and excellent picture, but thinking of adding a projector to the system.

mjg100 -

DO you plan on adding a second sealed ED sub in the near future?

I know you have everything tucked neatly away in your entertainment center. But, if WAF and $$$ were not issues... would two A7s-450's be; a) better, or b) too much?

FIXED



But, if WAF and $$$ were not issues... we would live in a perfect world

mjg100 -

DO you plan on adding a second sealed ED sub in the near future?

I know you have everything tucked neatly away in your entertainment center. But, if WAF and $$$ were not issues... would two A7s-450's be; a) better, or b) too much?

Second sub, no. I am getting plenty of bass out of this one sub.

I'd consider a second sub, just to even out bass in the room.

I just got back from my weekly biz trip ... After putting some thought into this, I have three guys coming over Sunday to do some more side by side on the Conquest in the horizontal position, to see if the scores change with blind tests.

Jono, I am using the Behringer now.

This will move back getting results from the Castle and Valor, but making sure the Conquest gets every opportunity to perform at its best is "fair".

Veris ... Excellent posts. Thanks ! :)

Can you actually hear that much of a significant difference when its on its side to go through another testing round?

Speed of sound is roughly 340m/s (temperature dependent) Length of 1 cycle (wavelength) at 20hz is thus (340m/s) / (20/s)= 17m. A "perfect" superposition (doubling) of waves would thus be about quarter of that or 4.25m (or 14ft). That also assumes you are exactly between the two speakers.

I'd suggest bass boosts would definitely be frequency and spatially dependant. Course room effects would not be insignificant and can't be easily calculated. Hence trial an error on speaker positioning.

I haven't really added anything new here, but I hope I've helped to explain the bass boost by frequency 'theory' calc. re: wave superposition

I'm glad you said that. If we were talking about one sound source then the equation works well. With two sources, it breaks down somewhat because of cancellation and the possibility of double standing waves. To get the full effect of tw subs, a whole lot of moving around and phase adjustment will probably have to take place before he reaches optimum performance. Between the two, it's hard to say which one is the most impaortant because it's so dependent on the room configuration. Good call though.

craig isn't the first person to notice that it sounds better on its side. I noticed the same thing and so have at least 1 other owner who ended up placing it on its side permanently i believe.
I can't leave it on its side because i just don't have the room.

So yeah i think it would be fair to place it on its side and see how it does. I wouldn't count on more than 1 or 2 points but you never know.

It shouldn't be too surprising that turning the sub on it's side might change the sound somewhat. Upright due to it's tall height, the woofer sits about two feet off the floor. On it's side, it's closer to the floor by about a foot. It would be similar to moving the sub a foot closer or futher from a wall. This can certainly change the in-room response somewhat.

I stumbled on this very imformative thread and wanted to thank everyone for their input and especially Craig for his efforts. Seeing the size of some of these beasts and that some folks have multiples of them, size is obviously not a big consideration for some. The WAF has been mentioned and size obviously plays a large part in that. As such, I took the list and looked up dimensions specs and calculated displacement. Note these volumes are not the internal enclosure volumes but the external volumes, most including feet and grills, for comparing the sub sizes...

Elemental Designs A7-900: 19.54ft^3
Epik Conquest: 13.75ft^3
SVS PB13-Ultra: 7.05ft^3
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): unknown
JL Audio Fathom 113: 3.63ft^3
Velodyne DD-18: 5.44ft^3
Def Tech Trinity: 5.95ft^3
ACI Maestro: 5.81ft^3 (amp not included)
eD A5-350: 6.83ft^3
JL Audio Fathom 112: 2.86ft^3

It's obvious that the $ for some of the JL products buys you this caliber performance in 1/2 - 1/4 the volume of the other subs listed. Almost shocking how small the F113 is compared to the top 3 subs. I thought the SVS PB-13 Ultra was a bit smaller than the eD A5-350 but the opposite is true... tossup for the most part. There's been some PB13-Ultra vs Conquest discussion and it's amazing that for the $ and size that this is even a comparison.

Just thought this might give some insight into sizes for those of us that size plays a major factor in a sub purchase. It's looking like for a combination of performance, size, price, and aesthetics, I'm leaning towards the SVS PB13-Ultra.

Matt

Great consolidation of info. I used to think SVS was in the big herd, but some of these subs really are not practical in most households.

craig isn't the first person to notice that it sounds better on its side. I noticed the same thing and so have at least 1 other owner who ended up placing it on its side permanently i believe.

I thought I would chime in about this. The Conquest was originally designed to be laid on its "side". Or more accurately, it was supposed to be wider than it is tall. It puts the driver and ports both the same distance from the floor.

The problem is that everybody who saw the initial version said "That's too wide", and we decided to show it as an upright subwoofer. The footprint is much smaller when it stands up. But once people get it into their home, setting it on its side never seems to be a big deal. In most cases it looks smaller in the room this way because of the reduction in height.

All of our subwoofers can be run this way, either standing up or on their "side". That is why they are all forward firing. We have had several customers who were able to fit Castle's and Tower's into cabinets by laying them on their side. It gives the end user some extra flexibility.

I thought I would chime in about this. The Conquest was originally designed to be laid on its "side". Or more accurately, it was supposed to be wider than it is tall. It puts the driver and ports both the same distance from the floor.

The problem is that everybody who saw the initial version said "That's too wide", and we decided to show it as an upright subwoofer. The footprint is much smaller when it stands up. But once people get it into their home, setting it on its side never seems to be a big deal. In most cases it looks smaller in the room this way because of the reduction in height.

All of our subwoofers can be run this way, either standing up or on their "side". That is why they are all forward firing. We have had several customers who were able to fit Castle's and Tower's into cabinets by laying them on their side. It gives the end user some extra flexibility.

Chad, Chime in more often. It's good to have you here.

I think the Conquest looks cool on its side. But you make a good point, the shape of the Conquest does give it flexibility.

And my wife is getting used to it, too ... :D

Hello,

I think the Conquest looks great on its side also. The grill has the same appearance on both ends and no emblem to look at sideways.


rmlowz

I stumbled on this very imformative thread and wanted to thank everyone for their input and especially Craig for his efforts. Seeing the size of some of these beasts and that some folks have multiples of them, size is obviously not a big consideration for some. The WAF has been mentioned and size obviously plays a large part in that. As such, I took the list and looked up dimensions specs and calculated displacement. Note these volumes are not the internal enclosure volumes but the external volumes, most including feet and grills, for comparing the sub sizes...

Elemental Designs A7-900: 19.54ft^3
Epik Conquest: 13.75ft^3
SVS PB13-Ultra: 7.05ft^3
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): unknown
JL Audio Fathom 113: 3.63ft^3
Velodyne DD-18: 5.44ft^3
Def Tech Trinity: 5.95ft^3
ACI Maestro: 5.81ft^3 (amp not included)
eD A5-350: 6.83ft^3
JL Audio Fathom 112: 2.86ft^3

It's obvious that the $ for some of the JL products buys you this caliber performance in 1/2 - 1/4 the volume of the other subs listed. Almost shocking how small the F113 is compared to the top 3 subs. I thought the SVS PB-13 Ultra was a bit smaller than the eD A5-350 but the opposite is true... tossup for the most part. There's been some PB13-Ultra vs Conquest discussion and it's amazing that for the $ and size that this is even a comparison.

Just thought this might give some insight into sizes for those of us that size plays a major factor in a sub purchase. It's looking like for a combination of performance, size, price, and aesthetics, I'm leaning towards the SVS PB13-Ultra.

Matt

The statement in bold above has more to do with the JL subs being sealed than it has to do with anything else. A sealed sub requires less volume, but a lot more power to get the same result.

The statement in bold above has more to do with the JL subs being sealed than it has to do with anything else. A sealed sub requires less volume, but a lot more power to get the same result.

True, and the woofer needs to be able to handle the power and deliver the excursion at low frequencies without the help of a port. Not a trivial matter (or there would be dozens of similar performing small subwoofers).

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

The statement in bold above has more to do with the JL subs being sealed than it has to do with anything else. A sealed sub requires less volume, but a lot more power to get the same result.

small size, deep bass, low cost: pick any two

Can anyone offer an opinion as to approximately where a Paradigm Servo 15(v1) might rate on the Craigsub list?

A quick question for Craigsub,

i have a BIC 100 & wanted to upgrade to the HSU VTF2 MK3 non turbo. I see the hsu gets a total pf 86 & the BIC gets 78. However, they both got 40 points in the home theatre portion of the test.

So, are they the same sound/quality/loudness etc. for home theatre? Should I upgrade or not?

thanks. Sorry if the anwer is already in this thread (but,the thread is so long now & I was too lazy to read it all) :):)

True, and the woofer needs to be able to handle the power and deliver the excursion at low frequencies without the help of a port. Not a trivial matter (or there would be dozens of similar performing small subwoofers).

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Yeah, the 12W7 is an achievment in and of itself. Now, the 13W7 is even more impressive. If I could afford the Fathom113 it would easily be a " no-brainer for me. Until then, I have to find something that is within my budget. Keep up the good work.

This thread just gets better and better. I had made up my mind on what I wanted for my budget (hsu VTF markIII), left the thread for a month and now all these "new" options. The conquest looks just ridiculously good but i can't wait to see how the less expensive options would hold up (valor or castle). I think the conquest would wake my kids 2 floors up.

on a side note, and quite possibly a stupid question, but has there ever been any interest in rating some of the more well known brands to the average off the street consumer? I know you do this for fun and so i certainly have appreciated all you have done. but some of us non-audiophiles wonder how these compare to lay person popular brands like polks etc... I read everywhere how they are not generally good subs, but more objective in terms of rating specific things would be nice to "prove it".

True, and the woofer needs to be able to handle the power and deliver the excursion at low frequencies without the help of a port. Not a trivial matter (or there would be dozens of similar performing small subwoofers).

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

I agree with you 100%. When looking at near equal performing subwoofers, the sealed versions are always going to be smaller and have larger amps. It is a different method to get to the same result. I like sealed subs. I currently use a sealed sub in my system. By the way I would love to own the 113.

I see the hsu gets a total pf 86 & the BIC gets 78. However, they both got 40 points in the home theatre portion of the test.

So, are they the same sound/quality/loudness etc. for home theatre? Should I upgrade or not?

I was wondering this as well.

I stumbled on this very imformative thread and wanted to thank everyone for their input and especially Craig for his efforts. Seeing the size of some of these beasts and that some folks have multiples of them, size is obviously not a big consideration for some. The WAF has been mentioned and size obviously plays a large part in that. As such, I took the list and looked up dimensions specs and calculated displacement. Note these volumes are not the internal enclosure volumes but the external volumes, most including feet and grills, for comparing the sub sizes...

Elemental Designs A7-900: 19.54ft^3
Epik Conquest: 13.75ft^3
SVS PB13-Ultra: 7.05ft^3
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): unknown
JL Audio Fathom 113: 3.63ft^3
Velodyne DD-18: 5.44ft^3
Def Tech Trinity: 5.95ft^3
ACI Maestro: 5.81ft^3 (amp not included)
eD A5-350: 6.83ft^3
JL Audio Fathom 112: 2.86ft^3

It's obvious that the $ for some of the JL products buys you this caliber performance in 1/2 - 1/4 the volume of the other subs listed. Almost shocking how small the F113 is compared to the top 3 subs. I thought the SVS PB-13 Ultra was a bit smaller than the eD A5-350 but the opposite is true... tossup for the most part. There's been some PB13-Ultra vs Conquest discussion and it's amazing that for the $ and size that this is even a comparison.

Just thought this might give some insight into sizes for those of us that size plays a major factor in a sub purchase. It's looking like for a combination of performance, size, price, and aesthetics, I'm leaning towards the SVS PB13-Ultra.

Matt

Some are going to get offended, but it is what it is. This list are for "men" who are afraid of their "mothers".:rolleyes:

I can't stand it.:mad:

The BIC and Hsu are both comparable in regards to "home theater rumble", but the Hsu is well ahead of the BIC in terms of articulation and slam.

Keep in mind, much of the home theater experience IS music ... so music performance should weigh heavily in one's decision, which is why the X-sub and BIC H-100 make for such an interesting pair of options.

Hello,

I think the Conquest looks great on its side also. The grill has the same appearance on both ends and no emblem to look at sideways.


rmlowz

Do you still have the Danley? Would you mind comparing and contrasting it with the Conquest if you do(in a seperate thread of course)? I think that this would be a great comparo and a lot of people would be interested. I know I would.

The comparison between the Conquest and the Danley is more than welcome here ... this thread is about subwoofers ... heck, I did not even open this thread, so it definitely is not mine.

Rich is very experienced amd knows his subwoofer stuff, and his assessment on the Danley is more than welcome. :)

i would be interested in comparisons of the ed and epik lines. actual or opions, as these seem to be the more reasonably price options for some of us mere mortals(family man).

i would be interested in comparisons of the ed and epik lines. actual or opions, as these seem to be the more reasonably price options for some of us mere mortals(family man).

In the ~$600 range, I have an A5-350 and an Epik Knight on order. Both should be here by Christmas. I'll be sure to let you know what I find.

Do you still have the Danley? Would you mind comparing and contrasting it with the Conquest

what he said

what he said

What he quoted...

Keep in mind, much of the home theater experience IS music ... so music performance should weigh heavily in one's decision

Good point, I was watching Fast and the Furious, Tokyo Drift a few days ago and was surprised how much music it had in it that hit very hard and sounded beautiful of my dual HO's.

Before coming to AVS, I never realized how much music articulation helps a sub when it come to HT use.

Regarding sound tracks, I watched the first Resident Evil. IMO that soundtrack is a great work out for a sub and a system. Truthfully, I think the sound track sounds better then the effects.

Good point, I was watching Fast and the Furious, Tokyo Drift a few days ago and was surprised how much music it had in it that hit very hard and sounded beautiful of my dual HO's.

Before coming to AVS, I never realized how much music articulation helps a sub when it come to HT use.

there is a cool song in the credits too

RE's soundtrack makes the movie worth watching...Marco Beltrami (sp or name = maybe close) I believe. One of his best.

Craig,
I was blown away by the fact that you rated the ED A5-350 so highly. It appears we have a new performance/price champion! At its ranking, it is surrounded by Subs 4 times its price. Even dropping a few points to the HSU big guns, the ED is lower in price.
I bought an HSU VTF2mkIII based on the reviews here back in April. I am very happy with it, but am wondering how much better the ED is for only $100 more? 10 points difference on HT is huge. Have you ever side-by-side compared the 2? Is it worth the upgrade- I do 75% HT. Anyone in the D/FW area have an ED A5-350 & want to compare to my HSU? Have van will travel.

In the ~$600 range, I have an A5-350 and an Epik Knight on order. Both should be here by Christmas. I'll be sure to let you know what I find.

please do. those are the 2 that i would like compared. same price except shipping, but 2-5 days lead time vs. 30 days,it would be a no brainer. congats on your soon to be rocking x-mas. i also can hardly wait. thx

Hello forum friends,

Quote: Rich is very experienced and knows his subwoofer stuff, and his assessment on the Danley is more than welcome.

Thanks for the compliment Craig, but my learning curve is nowhere near yours. I have learned a great deal from you! As everybody knows pros and cons to all gear. The Danley will go lower (12Hz) in my room. Think of the Danley as a sub that goes down deep with unlimited authority. It really is the only sub that I have owned that scares me at loud volumes. You don't know what is going to happen projector fall off the ceiling land in your lap or what! The Danley (in my room) does not have that 40Hz punch you in the chest that I like for theater. I then went and bought two JTR Growlers for the 40 hz. It is an amazing combo the best that I have heard in my room. You add the Danley two Growlers two amps you are at a MSRP of 7,200.00. The Conquest will do everything the Danley and the Growlers and will do except go down to the 12hz region and not play as loud. This is in my room of coarse some forum friends may get 12Hz in their room. The Conquest will go very close in output as the Danley Growler combo for only at my house 1775.00 delivered!!! I will be happy with the Conquest for a long time (that's what I told the wife). What I really want to hear is the Conquest and the A7-900 played together. Chad also has me excited about his new up and coming high end sealed subs that I would like to try. Thanks Craig for giving me the opportunity to give my opinion on what I heard at my house.

"I will be happy with the Conquest for a long time"

Is happy a long time 30 days or 45 days? ;)

Hello forum friends,

(that's what I told the wife)You have a wife??? :eek: She must be a saint or be Craig's wife's sister. :D

Hello Brian,

You know me to well. Really this is a keeper for many years to come. One thing I forgot to mention is the sound of the Conquest bass is a different sound (hard to explain) that I really enjoy. I have had my Danley for two years that's a long time for me.

Take Care,

rmlowz

Hello,

Quote:You have a wife??? She must be a saint or be Craig's wife's sister.

I have a lot to be thankful for and have been married for 21 years. She shakes her head some times when the new pallet or box arrives. My AV hobby got a little interrupted last year because she wanted a sunroom and she got it and deserves it. When movie time comes she smiles just like I do. She looks at me and tells me this sounds amazing! She just called and said, Quote: one of your boxes is here. (vintage marantz reciever from ebay)

Take Care,

rmlowz

The Conquest has brought back the fun in home audio for me. The absolute best addition to my home theatre ever...

Hello,

Quote:You have a wife??? She must be a saint or be Craig's wife's sister.

I have a lot to be thankful for and have been married for 21 years. She shakes her head some times when the new pallet or box arrives. My AV hobby got a little interrupted last year because she wanted a sunroom and she got it and deserves it. When movie time comes she smiles just like I do. She looks at me and tells me this sounds amazing! She just called and said, Quote: one of your boxes is here. (vintage marantz reciever from ebay)

Take Care,

rmlowzJust joking Rich...it's great you've got a keeper that enjoys and let's you too. :) Mine's going to get a Select Number Kingsize bed, cuz she deserves it.

Lol... the sleep number bed was the trade off I made for my Emotiva components last year :)

It's all about negotiations after all...

The new eD A7S-450 will require new bamboo flooring to enhance her spa room... fair enough trade :)

michael

I like how you can get something you want by getting something for her that you'll use just as much.

Awesome wives.

We had a customer drive down from Canada to pick up a 5.1 setup over the holiday.

He was allowed to get his 5.1 for her allowed to get a new wardrobe. :)

http://www.icixsound.com/vb/icixnation/images/38_1906.jpg

I say whoever makes the money, shouldn't have to ask to get something they want. ;)

I like how you can get something you want by getting something for her that you'll use just as much.

Awesome wives.

You assume they are going to let them use it....they might be getting stuck with the old bed in another room. :-)

Splotto

That's pretty cool, now if it were reversed...say she was allowed to get HER 5.1 eD system for his allowance of a wardrobe, now that would have been AWESOME. :)

We had a customer drive down from Canada to pick up a 5.1 setup over the holiday.

He was allowed to get his 5.1 for her allowed to get a new wardrobe. :)

http://www.icixsound.com/vb/icixnation/images/38_1906.jpg

I say whoever makes the money, shouldn't have to ask to get something they want. ;)

Ah yes, the idealism of the single audiophile...marriage will beat that out of you. :p

I make the money, and I can get whatever I want for my HT, whenever I want it, AND it doesn't have to pass any silly WAF test !!!

... as long as I first bribe the guard, err.. pay the toll, umm ... buy shiny clear lumps of carbon embedded in precious metal for my lovely beautiful wife. :rolleyes:


Tim

Ah yes, the idealism of the single audiophile...marriage will beat that out of you. :p

haha, yes you are probably correct. :D

At any rate, back to the topic. Can't wait to see those numbers for the Conquest on-side. Be interesting to see if it can actually score several points above what its at now.

Ok, NUB question here - thinking about a sub for a ~7000 cubic foot room, considering a PB12-Plus/2, PB Ultra-13 or a used Ultra/2. Room opens has 1 adjacent room french doors, measures about 1600 cubic feet. Any of these is probably better than my dated Atlantic Research 352PBM - opinions on the choices? (only one sub allowed for WAF). Primary use will be HT but some music too

haha, yes you are probably correct. :D

At any rate, back to the topic. Can't wait to see those numbers for the Conquest on-side. Be interesting to see if it can actually score several points above what its at now.

Same here. I've experimented some with varying the elevation of a sub and found that frequency response graphs were the same, although I could hear a difference. Go figure.

frequency response graphs were the same, although I could hear a difference. Go figure.
Psychoacoustics. We're all affected by ideas/preconceptions.


Tim

Same here. I've experimented some with varying the elevation of a sub and found that frequency response graphs were the same, although I could hear a difference. Go figure.

Maybe the frequency response didn't change at different elevations, but maybe the overall in-room levels did. That could make you hear a difference.

Same here. I've experimented some with varying the elevation of a sub and found that frequency response graphs were the same, although I could hear a difference. Go figure.

Good old placebo effect, its amazing what the mind can do to the perceptions of the body.

Would be funny though if there was no change at all in the actual specs :D

well i don't have the graphs lying around anymore but when i flipped my conquest upside down (compared to rightside up), the response was similar but definitely different. The nulls were more pronounced and the peaks were larger standing rightside up. I'm not sure if i ran tests with it sitting sideways but I did listen to it with it sideways and felt that it sounded the best like that. It isn't a practical though in my living room since it will take up half the room like that (well to be perfectly honest this is not a practical subwoofer for most rooms, especially living rooms in apartments, but i won't go into it). I believe i have these graphs in the epik thread somewhere back but i'm too tired to go look.

Anyways, i don't think this is the placebo effect at all in the case of the conquest. With a small subwoofer, flipping it one way or the other may change the distance from woofer/ports to the ground an inch or two. Here we are looking at the ports moving over a foot at least i'd say. Remember, this is not your average sized subwoofer. Sitting a full 3 feet tall (without any kind of spikes) its extends just above my window seal, and stands the same height as my moderately sized swans 4.1 floorstanding speakers. Moving this sub in any direction can affect frequency response quite a bit from the tests i've done. This is a small room though so it may be more of a factor here than in craig's room thats like 3x the size of my apartment :eek:

I know you boys like your toys big (at 450 lbs), but where are the balanced inputs on some of these top rated monsters?
No need to justify why RCAs are so crappy. Rather just to the right thing and add balanced inputs to them cheap looking amplifiers.:cool:

I know you boys like your toys big (at 450 lbs), but where are the balanced inputs on some of these top rated monsters?
No need to justify why RCAs are so crappy. Rather just to the right thing and add balanced inputs to them cheap looking amplifiers.:cool:

I suspect XLR will be become more the norm in the future. At the moment most consumer receivers don't have it and the most common sub usage is HT. Many subs have added balanced I/O recently, but some still have yet to.

Balanced XLR in/out on the new PB13/PC13 Ultra.


Tim

I only have about 2000 hours tied up in this, lord knows how much money, and a link to the summary in my signature.

Think you can figure it out from here ? :p:D

How do you get these subs for testing? Do the manufacturers eat the shipping both ways?

I ask because I just replaced my Sunfire Signature due to a hum after loud passages (and that I've wanted a SVS since they started :) ). I am going to send the Signature to Sunfire for their flat rate repair and when it comes back, sell it. However, I'm in no particular hurry and was wondering (since a couple of people asked if you had tested one), if you'd like some time with it first?

Anyway, great thread with a lot of good info here. Thanks for participating!

Craig buys them.

And then keeps them.

Possibly eventually selling them.

That's why we actually get things to him rather than another reviewer that wants something for free. We can't hold back a paying customer for a review. But since Craig is a paying customer, it works out fine.

Craig buys them.

And then keeps them.

Possibly eventually selling them.

That's why we actually get things to him rather than another reviewer that wants something for free. We can't hold back a paying customer for a review. But since Craig is a paying customer, it works out fine.

The golden question then is where/how does Craigsub get his disposable income:D

It's quite simple he invented this.:)

95487

I don't know if that's hilarious or just wrong.

But I cackled when I saw it.

The golden question then is where/how does Craigsub get his disposable income:D

Obviously it's from kickbacks from subwoofer companies. :D (I'm kidding!)

These quiet days between reports bring out the best in everyone ... Off to a swim invitational, see you guys on Sunday with an update on the Conquest !! :D

These quiet days between reports bring out the best in everyone ... Off to a swim invitational, see you guys on Sunday with an update on the Conquest !! :D

have fun swimming craig :)

This is for any of the eD guys. Obviously you guys are doing a great job of hitting a sweet spot by making the most powerful subs, albeit bigger enclosure subs on the market, presumably with a lower overhead than say a Velodyne and will therefore be successful in this arena. Whew, that was a runon sentence. Anyway if you can get a quality high power amp (ie 2500 plus watts) at a decent price, would you entertain the idea of something more on par with the size/output of the JL Audio F113? I believe if you could do something like this at less than $1500 it would sell like hotcakes. You can quote me on that. The point is everybody wants big bass but not too many people can afford the real estate of some of these massive enclosures. Anyway, what are the possibilities? Thanks

This is for any of the eD guys. Obviously you guys are doing a great job of hitting a sweet spot by making the most powerful subs, albeit bigger enclosure subs on the market, presumably with a lower overhead than say a Velodyne and will therefore be successful in this arena. Whew, that was a runon sentence. Anyway if you can get a quality high power amp (ie 2500 plus watts) at a decent price, would you entertain the idea of something more on par with the size/output of the JL Audio F113? I believe if you could do something like this at less than $1500 it would sell like hotcakes. You can quote me on that. The point is everybody wants big base but not too many people can afford the real estate of some of these massive enclosures. Anyway, what are the possibilities? ThanksYou start whispering in the ear of these guys and they'll start working on it. Best compromise right now, is the U13...2 out of 3 ain't bad :p

PLEASE!!! It is NOT "base" it is "BASS" At least have decent spelling (especially the word bass) for someone to take you seriously.

PLEASE!!! It is NOT "base" it is "BASS" At least have decent spelling (especially the word bass) for someone to take you seriously.

Fixed! Now take a deep breath followed by your regular dose of prosac. Seriously, the "misspelling police" thing is so 2002.

I really like BASS...pan fried w/ a bit of cornbread to flour it. EXCELLENT. And if you make a BASE sauce w/ a bit of butter, and...

...alright...trying to be funny. Just a reaction to THE Craig saying he was taking a weekend off.

Seriously, it would take a different sort of driver than they've been using. Perhaps the new Av12 driver. But it is FAR more costly than the 15/18" drivers in the Ov series. Small box + big power...that's what they are talking about. $1500? Not so sure on that end. But their pricing is all over the map. Talk to them and see...

Only noobs spell it as "base". I'm sure you are not a noob. If you spelt it as "bse" or "bas" as a mistake, it's understandable. But "base" is only from a noob trying to sound out the word "bass".

Only noobs spell it as "base". I'm sure you are not a noob. If you spelt it as "bse" or "bas" as a mistake, it's understandable. But "base" is only from a noob trying to sound out the word "bass".

Well here's the thing chengbin. When I'm interacting with people on a message board I no longer get bogged down with double checking or spell checking my words....I get my ideas down and 99.9% of everybody who reads and responds knows what I was saying. I have had a chance to check and double check my "work" while I'm at work as an airline pilot the past fifteen years. Just please try to lighten up and look for concept and don't get bogged down with semantics and spellings. If you can't do this then put me on your ignore list because I can't guarantee I will always spell everything correctly all of the time.

PS- This document has not been spell checked....BEWARE!

I'm sorry. I don't really mean it THAT seriously. Spelling mistakes are totally fine with me. I just hope you spell bass correctly from now on because we are in a bass thread. Bass is the most important word in this part of the forum. Again, if I have offended you, I apologize for that.

Only noobs spell it as "base". I'm sure you are not a noob. If you spelt it as "bse" or "bas" as a mistake, it's understandable. But "base" is only from a noob trying to sound out the word "bass".

What about when you go bass fishing? ;)

Tomato, Tomato (darn...doesn't work on a forum :D)

my new sig:

"all your bass are belong to us"

and I do mean bass.

Fixed! Now take a deep breath followed by your regular dose of prosac. Seriously, the "misspelling police" thing is so 2002.

LOL :D

my new sig:

"all your bass are belong to us"

and I do mean bass.

It just never get's old.

http://allyourbase.planettribes.gamespy.com/video1_view.shtml

Splotto

splotto
that was very interesting
thanks

lol, i had never heard of this all your base thing. Thats hilarous. Craig leaves and suddenly all your base are belong to us.

lol, i had never heard of this all your base thing. Thats hilarous. Craig leaves and suddenly all your base are belong to us.

Well, welcome to the internet, circa 2001. :)

I'm sorry. I don't really mean it THAT seriously. Spelling mistakes are totally fine with me. I just hope you spell bass correctly from now on because we are in a bass thread. Bass is the most important word in this part of the forum. Again, if I have offended you, I apologize for that.

Its all good. I'll try to spell base correclty from now on. JK Bass it is. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

I know you boys like your toys big (at 450 lbs), but where are the balanced inputs on some of these top rated monsters?
No need to justify why RCAs are so crappy. Rather just to the right thing and add balanced inputs to them cheap looking amplifiers.:cool:

What's the big deal having (or not) balanced inputs?

Well here's the thing chengbin. When I'm interacting with people on a message board I no longer get bogged down with double checking or spell checking my words....I get my ideas down and 99.9% of everybody who reads and responds knows what I was saying. I have had a chance to check and double check my "work" while I'm at work as an airline pilot the past fifteen years. Just please try to lighten up and look for concept and don't get bogged down with semantics and spellings. If you can't do this then put me on your ignore list because I can't guarantee I will always spell everything correctly all of the time.

PS- This document has not been spell checked....BEWARE!

Hilarious!!!:D

Speaking of misspelling, my favorite is when someone refers to "room nodes"

I never correct anyone because I know what they really meant to say. But in my mind I am thinking "Its MODES you idiot... NODES are something that hang off of your arse!"

Dr V

Speaking of misspelling, my favorite is when someone refers to "room nodes"

I never correct anyone because I know what they really meant to say. But in my mind I am thinking "Its MODES you idiot... NODES are something that hang off of your arse!"

Dr V

Sorry Dr. V, but you be wrong! They are most indeed "NODES".
Here is a good example:

http://web.bham.ac.uk/accessgrid/AGRoomSetup.pdf

Sorry Dr. V, but you be wrong! They are most indeed "NODES".
Here is a good example:

http://web.bham.ac.uk/accessgrid/AGRoomSetup.pdf

You might want to check more reputable references. i.e. Audioholics, Linkwitz Labs, THX.com, Dolby Labs, WIkipedia, acoustics.com, Realtraps.com, or just Google for the entire list.

While I've only been into acoustics for 6 or 7 years, I've been in the RF engineering field and have dealt with radar wave propagation and magnetron "modes" (standing waves inside oscillator tubes) for years and it is the exact same science. Never have i heard any expert call it a "node"! Perhaps it is a British language difference since you are citing some English school document?

Dr V

FIght!! Fight!!!

I got $5 on Mike, just because his floridian! :D

FIght!! Fight!!!

I got $5 on Mike, just because his floridian! :D

Cmon Sherv.. Thats a poor qualification!

One could also reference The Master Handbook of Acoustics by F. Alton Everest. One very thick book that should be on everyones desk who is interested in acoustics. If one doesn't have $40 to invest in education, a simple Google search will serve as a teacher. :D

Dr V

You might want to check more reputable references. i.e. Audioholics, Linkwitz Labs, THX.com, Dolby Labs, WIkipedia, acoustics.com, Realtraps.com, or just Google for the entire list.

While I've only been into acoustics for 6 or 7 years, I've been in the RF engineering field and have dealt with radar wave propagation and magnetron "modes" (standing waves inside oscillator tubes) for years and it is the exact same science. Never have i heard any expert call it a "node"! Perhaps it is a British language difference since you are citing some English school document?

Dr V

I'd say the jury is arguable out on this one. Here as another example is a bass trap product by Auralex Acoustics, a well-known maker of room treatment products. This product is actually called a "LENRD Bass Trap". LENRD stands for "Low-End Node Reduction Device".
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LENRD4CHA/

Would you consider Auralex to be experts? I would.

In your defense, Dr. V, there are also plenty of references to the term "Room Mode" as well. Even some technical papers referenced by Auralex also refer to the term "Room Modes."

You are not wrong in referring to the phenomenon as "Room Modes." What is wrong is your indignation expressed to the equally accepted alternative term "Room Nodes."

Peace.:)

You are both correct, but NODES and MODES are two different animals.

Active nodes are the main concern when placing speakers in a
rectangular room. A node, or the frequency where speakers and
parallel walls interact, is proportional to the speaker to the wall
distance.
This is from http://www.cardas.com/pdf/roomsetup.pdf

The most pervasive for subwoofers is usually the phenomena of room modes.
Room modes are caused by the resonance of specific frequencies of sound within the
boundaries of your listening room.
This is from http://www.homeacoustics.net/Pearls/Articles/DIY%20Subwoofer%20Calibration.pdf

I know you boys like your toys big (at 450 lbs), but where are the balanced inputs on some of these top rated monsters?
No need to justify why RCAs are so crappy. Rather just to the right thing and add balanced inputs to them cheap looking amplifiers.:cool:

What's the big deal having (or not) balanced inputs?

I don't think he intends to "justify" that statement. Another hit and run. I think it is like worrying about the pea under the mattress.

You are both correct, but NODES and MODES are two different animals.

Active nodes are the main concern when placing speakers in a
rectangular room. A node, or the frequency where speakers and
parallel walls interact, is proportional to the speaker to the wall
distance.
This is from http://www.cardas.com/pdf/roomsetup.pdf

The most pervasive for subwoofers is usually the phenomena of room modes.
Room modes are caused by the resonance of specific frequencies of sound within the
boundaries of your listening room.
This is from http://www.homeacoustics.net/Pearls/Articles/DIY%20Subwoofer%20Calibration.pdf

Are we all sufficiently confused yet? If not, here is an article that refers to both Modes and Nodes in the same document, but fails to actually differentiate between the two:
http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/RoomModes/driving.html

I would have to say that for our purposes as bass aficionados, either term may be used.

I just started reading about nodes and modes this morning, so excuse my crude definitions.

Nodes are specific components of a rooms acoustics. They are defined by room dimensions, sound source placement, reflective surface materials (phase shift or not). Each of these are a node.

Modes are the rooms collection of nodes and how sound interacts with the entire room at given frequencies.

Nodes are a subcomponent of modes.

Interesting Ransac. Ah I see what you are saying now. Here is an excellent definition and animated graphic showing what a node really is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Node_%28physics%29

As opposed to a room mode, which is well defined here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonant_room_modes

I still have often seen the "nodes" used when the poster actually meant "modes" as in the latter definition. For the context of 99% of all discussions about subwoofers, the mode is often what is talked about. Similar sounding and still yet similarly spelled, its no wonder people get them confused.

I'm sure we can all agree now that they are indeed two distinctly different phenomena which are related.

Dr V

Is this what Craig's thread becomes when he is gone? We are supposed to be talking about subwoofers, not spelling, room nodes or modes ;)

Is this what Craig's thread becomes when he is gone? We are supposed to be talking about subwoofers, not spelling, room nodes or modes ;)Many of us live vicariously through Craig. When he is not available, we have to do something to fill our time. Kind of like when Barney Fife is in charge while Andy is away.

Is this what Craig's thread becomes when he is gone? We are supposed to be talking about subwoofers, not spelling, room nodes or modes ;)

Yes. It became a learning experience in low frequency acoustics in as little as 8 posts. Worthwhile? I think so!

Dr V

Kind of like when Barney Fife is in charge while Andy is away.
I normally don't have much use for analogies but that's a good one. Funny too.
:cool:

David

Alright, let's talk about subwoofers.
If the PB13 is a dedicated sealed subwoofer, meaning the same driver in the same enclosure with the same amp but without ports. Would it be any louder than the current PB13 in sealed mode?

Alright, let's talk about subwoofers.
If the PB13 is a dedicated sealed subwoofer, meaning the same driver in the same enclosure but without ports. Would it be any louder than the current PB13 in sealed mode?

Certainly not, unless a bigger amp were to be used. If it were used in sealed mode only, the woofer might have more power handling.

How can the driver have more power handling when it's in a sealed enclosure as to a ported enclosure?
Also, wouldn't there be more internal volume because the ports are gone?

The resistance from the sealed air behind the woofer can help to prevent overexcursion.

Here's two questions for Craig when he comes back. Have you tested the PB13 in 15Hz mode with WOTW? 15Hz mode sacrifices 1dB above 20Hz (according to IIkka's result) and increases 15Hz by 2dB and 12.5Hz by 10dB. With music, did you test it in sealed mode or ported?

Also, wouldn't there be more internal volume because the ports are gone?

This would not change the internal volume significantly because when the ports are sealed off, the hollow inside of the tubes are simply part of the internal sealed volume.

Is there any disadvantage or sacrifices made (except for overall output) to have 3 selectable tuning and sealed mode?

Can anyone offer an opinion as to approximately where a Paradigm Servo 15(v1) might rate on the Craigsub list?

Anybody?

Is there any disadvantage or sacrifices made (except for overall output) to have 3 selectable tuning and sealed mode?

I can't see any disadvantage of having choices, but each particular mode has it's advantages and disadvantages when compared to each other.

In the case of the 13Ultra, I can't see that the sub is making the best out of it's design when used in sealed or in 10hz mode. In 10hz mode, it's underported. In sealed mode, it's underpowered. These are just my opinions. On the other hand, I would much rather have these options than not.

Just for the record, my preference is the 15hz mode.

So you're implying that there is no disadvantage or sacrifices made to have multiple tuning options and a sealed mode but it is just more challenging to design.
BTW I think 15Hz is the sweet spot as well.

So you're implying that there is no disadvantage or sacrifices made to have multiple tuning options and a sealed mode but it is just more challenging to design.
BTW I think 15Hz is the sweet spot as well.

I can't get inside the heads of Tom and Ron of SVS, but I have to believe they built it foremost around the 20hz tuning. The enclosure volume and porting is sufficient to also work very well in 15hz tuning. The fact that the enclosure volume is large for the size of the driver allows the flexibilty of being able to make good use of it's variable tuning.

I'd say there is no compromise overall having variable tuning if you regard the sub as primarily as a ported sub, not a sealed one. I don't think it's perfomance at 20hz or even at 15hz are compromised by the design.

Anybody?Probably between 94 - 100 would be my guess.

I agree that as a max spl monster the 13 Ultra is underported in 10hz tune. Yet, in 10hz tune it is audibly cleaner, truly pure at the lowest of frequencies, and worth the extra extension over the 15hz tune as long as your listening volume requirements don't need to push it to the point of chuffing. For me, that's about 5 db louder than I listen with the sub placed nearfield, so it's all good.

Would it be any louder than the current PB13 in sealed mode?

There is no sealed mode on the PB13, it's a sealed Node.

Sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

I think the Servo v1 would score around 46 in movies and 48 in music.

Wow, without Craig this thread suddenly becomes so quiet. Not a post in 5.5 hours!
OMG What an idiot, I spelt quiet wrong.

We are back from the swim invitational ... which had some awesome kids participating. We are primed for a full day of pounding a horizontal Conquest ... look for a report tomorrow evening. :)

I agree that as a max spl monster the 13 Ultra is underported in 10hz tune. Yet, in 10hz tune it is audibly cleaner, truly pure at the lowest of frequencies, and worth the extra extension over the 15hz tune as long as your listening volume requirements don't need to push it to the point of chuffing. For me, that's about 5 db louder than I listen with the sub placed nearfield, so it's all good.

how about running a pair of stacked Ultra's on each side of the room in 10hz mode ?

:D

Wow, without Craig this thread suddenly becomes so quite. Not a post in 5.5 hours!

bass - base

quiet - quite

:rolleyes:

We are back from the swim invitational ... which had some awesome kids participating. We are primed for a full day of pounding a horizontal Conquest ... look for a report tomorrow evening. :)

Now, why couldn't we have lived next door to each other?:rolleyes:

How about testing the PB13 in 15Hz mode? And sealed for music?

We are back from the swim invitational ... which had some awesome kids participating. We are primed for a full day of pounding a horizontal Conquest ... look for a report tomorrow evening. :)

Just in the way of a suggestion, try it both horizontal and in its normal vertical orientation. It would be interesting to see how subjectively the two differ.

Just in the way of a suggestion, try it both horizontal and in its normal vertical orientation. It would be interesting to see how subjectively the two differ.

Since none of the guys coming over read this, It is safe to say you got it. Today's test is going to be "Horizontal Vs. Vertical". Let's see if things change with the Beast listened to in both positions, under the usual blind condistions.

We already have the score for Vertical ...

Good Morning Craig,
Testing Valor today? Mine will be here on the 5th.

If the horizonal Conquest does sound better (or vice versa), would the score change? Or will there be a separate score?

Valor and Castle testing will be the next 2 weeks.

And yes, if the Conquest does actually improve its score today, it will be changed, with a suggestion that it be tried both vertically and horizontally.

Let's see if things change with the Beast listened to in both positions, under the usual blind conditions.
It wont surprise me if it does Craig, I would bet that your going to get more gain at the least! I wish I would of had the room to try the same with one of my previous subs.

a SteveNN sighting! :eek:

hope all is well on your end my friend... ;)

I can't see any disadvantage of having choices, but each particular mode has it's advantages and disadvantages when compared to each other.

In the case of the 13Ultra, I can't see that the sub is making the best out of it's design when used in sealed or in 10hz mode. In 10hz mode, it's underported. In sealed mode, it's underpowered. These are just my opinions. On the other hand, I would much rather have these options than not.

Just for the record, my preference is the 15hz mode.

I believe you said it best with your first paragraph. Options allow you to configure your subwoofer best for your room and your own preference.

I've never been one who cares a lot about maximum output below audible frequencies. I'm of the opinion it is just for bragging rights similar to car stereo DB contests. Fun, but not necessarily rewarding when watching a movie. Most of our systems are far in excess of any actual movie theatre. Thus I'd personally play with setting to create the flattest FR between 20 and 60 (or 80) hz. Or just below my hearing threshold to my cross over setting.

Someone else might prefer a bass boost at 40 hz or extreme low frequency responses. Options allow customization to your preference; never a bad thing.

Since none of the guys coming over read this, It is safe to say you got it. Today's test is going to be "Horizontal Vs. Vertical". Let's see if things change with the Beast listened to in both positions, under the usual blind condistions.

We already have the score for Vertical ...

Well if nothing else at least you'll get a good workout.

a SteveNN sighting!:eek:

hope all is well on your end my friend...;)
Yeah I'm still around, nice to here from you br Sherv.:cool: all is well, although there be many changes;)
Just for the record, my preference is the 15hz mode.
I dunno, I have had five Ultra's and I definitely was partial to the 15hz tuning point also. I'm not sure if that would be so with the new 13Ultra or not? Maybe Craig will explore this sometime? You know it's one thing to go through all the subs that you do Craig, but then trying all the different tunes and optional placement is, well rather daunting I would think to say the least.:eek:

I don't think he intends to "justify" that statement. Another hit and run. I think it is like worrying about the pea under the mattress.

I'm more worried about the pee under the mattress. :p

On a sub-related note, I had my first listen to an IB setup. Quad 18 inch avalanches. Holy mackerel, now I see what all the fuss is about. I'm glad I prewired my room for another pair of f113s if the first pair don't cut it, although I'll be surprised if that turns out to be the case.
What a bass massage. FOTP really has some oomph!

...I had my first listen to an IB setup. Quad 18 inch avalanches....
where? whose setup? (if you don't mind me asking) :)

quite the experience, ain't it? :D

He is talking about Jesse S's 3'x7'x12' IB consisting of 4 18" Avalanche drivers and a Behringer 2500W amp in a sealed 1500cf room with floor to ceiling Roxul basstraps in each corner. We were hitting over 130db with minimal distortion at or below reference using the usual bass torture tracks. :eek: :cool:

WOW, 130dB!!! I really fear for your house's foundation!!! How was your ears (and body) after that "experience"? Also, Jesse you are one BASS FREAK!!! I can't believe you need 4 18'' driver's in IB to satisfy your taste!

This may sound like a really stupid question, since I should know it. But the term 'reference' what exactly is it implying? Meaning above a certain SPL or something?

It depends on what kind of reference. It usually means 100dB, or 0dB on your receiver. But a Dolby reference is 115dB. In jakeman's post, he meant 0dB on receiver.

After 8 hours of listening to various soundtracks, from movies, CD's, SACD's, and DVD-A .. .the Conquest in horizontal position does pick up 2 points in the music arena.

The guys were amazed to find out that it was the identical subwoofer each time, just in a different position.

Thanks Craig...now, go enjoy that martini! Hopefully Sapphire...but I digress!

I was about to be like a banker asking for the results. Good thing it's here now. So the horizontal conquest only benefit in music, not HT. What made the conquest get 2 more points in music? Is it accuracy, tightness, SPL?
Just a little suggestion. I think you should make a note that the conquest achieved these scored when placed horizontally, not its usual vertical placement.

The home theater ratings are primarily an objective look at the numbers ... "How low and how loud" ...

The music ratings are more of a "how tight is a kick drum ... how accurate is bass guitar ... how percussive is the unit"

Some of the music tracks:

Steely Dan's Two Against Nature
Special disc of various artists made for our GTG
SACD of Dark Side of the Moon
FourPlay - a couple of discs
AC-DC's Back In Black.
Donald Fagen's Morph the Cat


We also used the Cannon shots from Master and Commander, the Pod race from Phantom Menace and the Lightning strikes from WOTW.

The horizontal unit, for example, hit harder in the chest on the Cannon shots.

You would think this is a Home Theater rating ... but it was not any louder, it was just more articulate and palpable.

My favorite disc is still Two Against Nature, in terms of combining the need for power, extension and articulation. A great subwoofer delivers bass that you feel, and does this in a musical signal. The Conquest, just as the Ultra and A7-900, was fantastic on this disc.

The Conquest was more visceral, and just plain sounded better, on each track, in the horizontal position.

That's interesting. I would imagine that it "couples" better with the floor boundary in horizontal position.

My favorite disc is still Two Against Nature, in terms of combining the need for power, extension and articulation.

i see this disc mentioned a lot in the audio magazines by their reviewers

it's an awesome disc :cool:

My favorite disc is still Two Against Nature, in terms of combining the need for power, extension and articulation. Can you recommend a couple of specific cuts on this disc, Craig? Thanks. :)

Jack ... "What a Shame about me", "Janie Runaway" and "Cousin Dupree" are probably the 3 best.

any chance of seeing the measurements? certainly would be interesting.

where? whose setup? (if you don't mind me asking) :)

quite the experience, ain't it? :D

I first heard the woofer-busting scene in Pulse at Jakeman's house with an Ultra 13 and F113. Both of them sounded like they were out of gas at -5MV or so with port chuffing and all kinds of ugly noises. I'd never seen/heard this movie before.

I heard it today on the quad 18s at reference level and WOW, you felt like you were inside a giant heart. Some serious headroom and body-massaging bass like you get in a super car stereo but you're sitting in the comfort of a home theatre.

Quad 18 inch, long throw drivers in a 1500 cubic foot sealed room SHOULD feel powerful. 1500 cubic feet is a small bedroom. :rolleyes::p:D

I first heard the woofer-busting scene in Pulse at Jakeman's house with an Ultra 13 and F113. Both of them sounded like they were out of gas at -5MV or so with port chuffing and all kinds of ugly noises. I'd never seen/heard this movie before.

I heard it today on the quad 18s at reference level and WOW, you felt like you were inside a giant heart. Some serious headroom and body-massaging bass like you get in a super car stereo but you're sitting in the comfort of a home theatre.

Interesting. Today I managed to get to -8ref on the Pulse scene with my lowly 20-39PC+ tuned to 16hz. AND I calibrate to 77db uncorrected. No port chuffing or anything. Mainly could just hear windows and other parts of my house rattling.

I first heard the woofer-busting scene in Pulse at Jakeman's house with an Ultra 13 and F113. Both of them sounded like they were out of gas at -5MV or so with port chuffing and all kinds of ugly noises. I'd never seen/heard this movie before.


There is something odd about the sounds that were described in that comparison. I've never seen anyone else ever report the same subs making those kind of sounds no matter how hard they were pushed. I know I can't seem to get my PB13 to make those sounds. I question the signals going into the subs in that comparison. I wonder about the possibilty that the SMS was overdriven or that the eq to get all the subs sounding the same was too much.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion Mike. :rolleyes: At least an hour or so was spent checking and rechecking all the settings for those subs to make sure they were all getting the same input signal. Keep in mind, in a well treated room with effective basstraps in the corners and multiple acoustical panels subwoofers have to work that much harder to achieve the same SPLs as would be experienced in an untreated room.

Pulse in DTS near reference is a difficult track for any single sub to reproduce accurately without artifacts or audible distortion. At -5 setting the DTS track would be equivalent to Dolby reference or +1. Such an extreme track played at those levels in a damped acoustical environment are bound to reveal any sub faults be it the amp, ports, driver, limiters, servo or DSP. The Velo DD-18 had the least artifacts but the servo cut distortion to the point where its output did not provide the same visceral impact as the other subs. The likely combination of amp build, questionable implemention and port design made the Ultra-13 chuff annoyingly to the point we had to turn the sub off on the Pulse track. The JL113 and the EP600 performed the best on Pulse though both were distorting.

Usually I run 3 or 4 subs in my HT and Pulse does sound like it should without any chuffing or audible distortion, but even that setup doesn't come close to the performance of Jesse's IB today. His sealed room is less than half the size of mine and we were sitting 10 ft from the quads.

If your playing reference levels with a movie like pulse in a treated room, I have no idea how a single 13, be it ported like the SVS or with insane excursion like the JL, could reproduce this without heavy distortion. You would really need a pair of these subs running simultaneously or something much larger like a ported 18 like in the conquest.

That's interesting. I would imagine that it "couples" better with the floor boundary in horizontal position.

I think Chad mentioned that it was intended for horizontal placement because of the port and driver placement being closer to the floor, on the same plane.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion Mike. :rolleyes: At least an hour or so was spent checking and rechecking all the settings for those subs to make sure they were all getting the same input signal. Keep in mind, in a well treated room with effective basstraps in the corners and multiple acoustical panels subwoofers have to work that much harder to achieve the same SPLs as would be experienced in an untreated room.

Pulse in DTS near reference is a difficult track for any single sub to reproduce accurately without artifacts or audible distortion. At -5 setting the DTS track would be equivalent to Dolby reference or +1. Such an extreme track played at those levels in a damped acoustical environment are bound to reveal any sub faults be it the amp, ports, driver, limiters, servo or DSP. The Velo DD-18 had the least artifacts but the servo cut distortion to the point where its output did not provide the same visceral impact as the other subs. The likely combination of amp build, questionable implemention and port design made the Ultra-13 chuff annoyingly to the point we had to turn the sub off on the Pulse track. The JL113 and the EP600 performed the best on Pulse though both were distorting.

Usually I run 3 or 4 subs in my HT and Pulse does sound like it should without any chuffing or audible distortion, but even that setup doesn't come close to the performance of Jesse's IB today. His sealed room is less than half the size of mine and we were sitting 10 ft from the quads.

I'm sure that you put plenty of effort into carfeully setting everything up, but if you think about it, they definitely do not all get the same signal. Unless I'm mistaken, they were each eq'd to have about the same frequency curve. That would mean that the same signal is going into the equalizer, but definitely not the same signal is coming out and then on to each sub. Of course this is pure speculation since I wasn't actually there, but what if the eq in order to get each sub flat in there respective positions, turned out to be heavy handed?

The point I'm making is that is is a mistake to assume they were all getting the same signal. Once again, the only reason I question this is because you guys were the only ones reporting certain types of phenomina out of many who drive the same subs very hard.

There's no doubt that the four IB quads would and should blow everything else away especially in a small sealed room like that. Even if you ran all four subs at the same time in your room, they might not do what the IB setup did in your friends room.

Jack ... "What a Shame about me", "Janie Runaway" and "Cousin Dupree" are probably the 3 best. Merci, mon ami! :cool:

In fact Mike because we were sitting relatively nearfield (7-10ft) and because all subs had good FR the only adjustments to the filters for all subs were modest cuts with no boosts. I suggest you assemble all those subs, find a tightly sealed acoustically 3500cf treated room, play Pulse at reference levels, level match them,equalize some modest cuts and see what you can hear. :D

The chuffing occurred during the second shootout with the new amp since the first amp malfunctioned at the end of the first shootout, to the sounds of clipping. Also if you have the inclination to read the old threads you will also find reports of chuffing which should not be a surprise given the tri-port design. While tri-ports are great for tuning, they do chuff more than vented subs having other port designs. As I reported earlier to my ear the amp in the Ultra-13 again appeared to be clipping and IMO is underpowered for that sub design. Despite that flaw it performed quite well and in several HT tracks sounded better than the other subs. For music it was always better sounding than the Servo v12. And with organ it sounded closer to the real thing, though with other music selections its mid-high bass didn't sound as tight or articulate as the FL113, DD-18 and the EP600.

In fact Mike because we were sitting relatively nearfield (7-10ft) and because all subs had good FR the only adjustments to the filters for all subs were modest cuts with no boosts. I suggest you assemble all those subs, find a tightly sealed acoustically 3500cf treated room, play Pulse at reference levels, level match them,equalize some modest cuts and see what you can hear. :D


Believe me, I wish I could! You are very fortunate to be able to assemble a bunch of subs of that caliber all in one place.