But the term 'reference' what exactly is it implying?

The term "reference" is often thrown around without any real knowledge of what it means. There are plenty of references, though, so making blanket comparisons is even difficult.

Technically, when it comes to Dolby Digital, the maximum reference output is 105dB. To calibrate a Home Theater, for example, test tones are often played back at -20dBFS (Full Scale) so that installers/users can adjust the levels to get 85dB at the listening position (105dB - 20dB = 85dB).

The reason for this is that, in a mixing studio, the filmmakers and sound engineers are mixing the film at a specific level. By setting your Home Theater to the same level, you are supposed to be hearing the film exactly as it was intended to sound.

So, briefly, that is was "reference" is. There's really only one problem with all of this...

Dolby Digital has a Dialog Normalization Value. (I'm not entirely sure of exactly how this is calculated.) Most DVDs carry a -4dB DNV (attenuation) meaning the actual maximum for that soundtrack is 101dB (not 105dB as the reference). This isn't the same for all material. Air Force One has a -0dB DNV and some older James Bond films have -9dB.

That's why a lot of material is 4dB lounder in DTS than it is in Dolby Digital.

But, if you calibrate a system using a reference and play it back at "reference levels" you should be hearing the film exactly as it was meant to be heard.

Hope that helps.


Paul Braman

The term "reference" is often thrown around without any real knowledge of what it means. There are plenty of references, though, so making blanket comparisons is even difficult.

Technically, when it comes to Dolby Digital, the maximum reference output is 105dB. To calibrate a Home Theater, for example, test tones are often played back at -20dBFS (Full Scale) so that installers/users can adjust the levels to get 85dB at the listening position (105dB - 20dB = 85dB).

The reason for this is that, in a mixing studio, the filmmakers and sound engineers are mixing the film at a specific level. By setting your Home Theater to the same level, you are supposed to be hearing the film exactly as it was intended to sound.

So, briefly, that is was "reference" is. There's really only one problem with all of this...

Dolby Digital has a Dialog Normalization Value. (I'm not entirely sure of exactly how this is calculated.) Most DVDs carry a -4dB DNV (attenuation) meaning the actual maximum for that soundtrack is 101dB (not 105dB as the reference). This isn't the same for all material. Air Force One has a -0dB DNV and some older James Bond films have -9dB.

That's why a lot of material is 4dB lounder in DTS than it is in Dolby Digital.

But, if you calibrate a system using a reference and play it back at "reference levels" you should be hearing the film exactly as it was meant to be heard.

Hope that helps.


Paul Braman

You might wanna read this:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-dialog-normalization-6-2000.html

My sub search is down to the Hsu VTF-2 Mk III and eD A5-350. Anyone would have an opinion on which would fit better with AV123 speakers? I have the old series (Swan), in a 3000 cu ft. Anyone with similar speakers using one of these subs?

Feedback greatly appreciated.

The term "reference" is often thrown around without any real knowledge of what it means.

"reference levels" sounds cool :cool:

My sub search is down to the Hsu VTF-2 Mk III and eD A5-350. Anyone would have an opinion on which would fit better with AV123 speakers? I have the old series (Swan), in a 3000 cu ft. Anyone with similar speakers using one of these subs?

Feedback greatly appreciated.

eD A5-350 all the way.craigsub 's rankings says it all

Could you address the general conceptual issues and pros and con of SEALED vs VENTED subs in general.

Which could be better for my needs;

I'm looking to decide between the A5-350 or the A7S-450 @ the 700 ish price.

I have a 2500 cubic foot theatre with two standard sized doors open to the rest of the house including a two story stairwell . . . probably not the best but installing doors is a MAF issue.

To wit; how does a room with openings to adjacent space hurt bass
. . . does it help anything?

Thanks in advance.

Could you address the general conceptual issues and pros and con of SEALED vs VENTED subs in general.


Sealed subs generally have smaller enclosures, have a more gradual rolloff below their resonance frequency, and require more amplifier power.

Ported subs generally require larger enclosures, have a steeper rolloff below their resonance frequency, and requires less amplifier power because they are more efficient. Because the ports tune the enclosure to a certain resonance frequency, some ported subs offer user-tuning by plugging ports.

Modern active amplification impacts lots of the above. Tuning/contour circuits can be used to counter the steeper dropoff of ported systems or allow tuning of sealed systems.

also sealed are usually more expensive than the ported subs of the same caliber.

These twosubs have different size drivers 15" and 18" With the increased amp power of the a7s450 (1300 rms)would it not have the potential to be a better performing sub or at least rated as well on graig's list as the A7 350

That's my bet, and hence the reason I chose the A7S-450 vs. the A5-350. The A7S should be tighter by virtue of the sealed enclosure (like every sealed sub I've ever enjoyed) vs. the ported A5. It does take more juice, and technically speaking for an unaltered line level input (meaning, no eq / boosting applied) the ported woofer could be (and is I believe) tuned lower than the resonant freq of the A7S would be. However, the ported sub should be more subject to room placement, resonance, and generally be a more finicky sub to get to perform well. The sealed sub... well, it pretty much sounds like it sounds unless eq'ed with very few room factors affecting the performance I'd think.

However, most of the assumptions above are based on what I used to know about subs (5-8 years ago) and is quite rusty :) I could be completely off base and someone will be along to critique and correct me shortly.

michael

There is something odd about the sounds that were described in that comparison. I've never seen anyone else ever report the same subs making those kind of sounds no matter how hard they were pushed. I know I can't seem to get my PB13 to make those sounds. I question the signals going into the subs in that comparison. I wonder about the possibilty that the SMS was overdriven or that the eq to get all the subs sounding the same was too much.

I had thought the same thing, Mike. As John has stated though, we were in a large, treated room expecting a single sub to produce gigantic output at 20hz! I'm still a little suspicious because the JL has a limiter to prevent significant distortion, and wonder if the distortion was in the signal like you thought too. We'll have to check it out with a fathom without the sms. I'll let you know in January when my room is done.

That was my point exactly.

By the way in case you are not aware of it, there is new firmware available for the SMS which eliminates the distortion problem as well as the rolloff.

However, most of the assumptions above are based on what I used to know about subs (5-8 years ago) and is quite rusty I could be completely off base and someone will be along to critique and correct me shortly.

The sealed/ported argument gets old real fast. Recent subwoofer releases, both sealed and ported have been spectacular. More important is how a given design is implemented, and how it is setup in a given room.

I can take a fantastic sealed sub like the JL Fathom F113 and make is sound like mud by just missing a couple seemingly minor setup aspects. Similarly I can take a fantastic ported sub like the PB-13 Ultra and astound you with articulate extremely low bass by paying attention to the setup details.

… All in the right room, with a well designed sub.

That was my point exactly.

By the way in case you are not aware of it, there is new firmware available for the SMS which eliminates the distortion problem as well as the rolloff.

Not on their website yet, but very soon.

The Conquest and PB13 Ultra look nice. The Ultra has the advantage on size and finish. It is a very nice balance of everything.

My favorite so far is the JL113. My living space and theater are one. The JL113 I could blend in and be satisfied w/ the sound. Now to swallow the price..

Right now, JL seems to hold a corner on the very high performance compact sub market, but I'm hearing rumblings (that's a pun!) that Epik is going to make a move in that direction.

Right now, JL seems to hold a corner on the very high performance compact sub market, but I'm hearing rumblings (that's a pun!) that Epik is going to make a move in that direction.


:D

I am also looking forward to seeing what Epik will have to offer.

My local dealer set up the JL Gotham a few weeks ago so I went in over the weekend to check it out. Wow! The gotham produces some serious LFE!! I am very impressed. And only an MSRP of $11,000...:D

http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?prod_id=370

Not on their website yet, but very soon.

I've installed v2.13 and it works well. Seems to be slightly more output down low but I can't tell anything different with distortion. I've always run my SMS around -5 so the input signal was always low. Perhaps there will be a difference for those that set gain over 0. Overall the difference between the versions is not audible or meaningful in my rig. I thought the ruckus over 2.12 was much adeu over nothing.

Right now, JL seems to hold a corner on the very high performance compact sub market, but I'm hearing rumblings (that's a pun!) that Epik is going to make a move in that direction.

Yes they have carved out a very lucrative niche for themselves but its bound to attract competition. Its very challenging to cram that much performance into such a small size but at the prices being charged by JL someone will take a run at it.

ive got a question, which might sound stuid to some. i was thinking of getting a a5-350. i already have 2 a2-300s,opp. corners. only have the 2 locations avail. i was thinking of stacking the a2-300s on top of each other to make room for the a5-350. what would others do?

Right now, JL seems to hold a corner on the very high performance compact sub market, but I'm hearing rumblings (that's a pun!) that Epik is going to make a move in that direction.

More than just rumblings, they have confirmed it :D

http://epiksubwoofers.com/blog/

Will be interesting to see how well their small sealed subs with huge excursion will perform..and the larger high end sealed subs, cant wait to see those.

Interesting comment from Epik.

Expect everything from a small sealed 12 with loads of excursion and phenomenal musicality on up to a new high end ultimate sealed subwoofer that will turn heads with its looks alone.

"Looks alone" seems interesting but it remains to be seen if they skimp on amp power and driver and go for a larger enclosure than the JL.

Interesting comment from eD.



"Looks alone" seems interesting but it remains to be seen if they skimp on amp power and driver and go for a larger enclosure than the JL.

Epik, I believe...and I believe the amp will be the bottleneck and/or the bargain killer on any Gothamesque designs. But since he's mentioned it a couple of times, you've got to think he's got a solution.

Thanks for the catch Ron. Yes it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Generally speaking as the enclosure volume shrinks for these sealed subs the amount of power required rises much more quickly and with bigger demands on the motor. The JL113 weighs in at 130lbs in a 6.3 litre enclosure with a 70lb driver powered by a 2500w amp. If he is going for a lower price point in the very high performance sealed niche something has to give.

Oh yeah and the smaller, less expensive FL112 with the 1500w amp with the 12" driver comes in at 4.7 litres and 115 lbs.

So how much does the F112 driver weighs around 50lbs.
There is only 15 lbs difference between the two JL subs, the cabinet alone has to be 10 lbs lighter. The amps probably weight about the same.
That's a heavy 12 inch sub same as a the Velodyne DD18.

Here is a possible solution. If you were to use a driver a with dual voice coils, you could then use two 1k plate amps which Epik already has.

I hate to interrupt this thread with stuff about subwoofer testing .. but a couple of things:

1. The Castle is now ready to see duty in the big theater.

2. I should have an AV-123 MFW-15 before Christmas.

Great discussion. Craigsub...... amazing work. Looking forward to the eD a7s-450 review if you do one. On a side note but still related to subs, if anyone cares to respond, at what sonic frequency ranges are various events in movies (eg. canon fire, car collision impact, harriers flying directly overhead, exploding houses, etc etc.)? What kind of events would register in at sub 20 Hz?

I should have an AV-123 MFW-15 before Christmas.

I'm really looking forward to hearing what you have to say on that one. I'm somewhere in the middle of the wait list for the MFW and I can't get an ETA out of them. The wait is killing me! Help ease my pain, Craig!:D At least let me know if the wait is going to be worth it.

How many of your 8 are supposed to be in before Christmas?

Great discussion. Craigsub...... amazing work. Looking forward to the eD a7s-450 review if you do one. On a side note but still related to subs, if anyone cares to respond, at what sonic frequency ranges are various events in movies (eg. canon fire, car collision impact, harriers flying directly overhead, exploding houses, etc etc.)? What kind of events would register in at sub 20 Hz?

There is an excellent thread separate from this one that should help you there pdg540. I'd do a quick search and if you can't find it, pm me and I'll get you the links.

michael

Craig, I noticed the link on your signature titled "link to subwoofer summary as suggested by TWO esteemed forum members" was posted a year ago. Is that the most up to date list?

Thanks for sharing all the info! :)

I'm really looking forward to hearing what you have to say on that one. I'm somewhere in the middle of the wait list for the MFW and I can't get an ETA out of them. The wait is killing me! Help ease my pain, Craig!:D At least let me know if the wait is going to be worth it.

How many of your 8 are supposed to be in before Christmas?I emailed my sales rep over 2 weeks ago and haven't gotten a reply. Weird.

Craig, I noticed the link on your signature titled "link to subwoofer summary as suggested by TWO esteemed forum members" was posted a year ago. Is that the most up to date list?

Read the fine print on that post...

Last edited by craigsub : 12-02-07 at 04:13 PM.

I hate to interrupt this thread with stuff about subwoofer testing...

Sir! Unless your news is of "epik" proportions, I'm not sure anyone will want to hear it. :p

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Craig,
Thanks for all the time work and $$$ that you have put into the testing you have done. You are a great asset to the A/V community.

To everyone that keeps asking "can you test this sub, can you add this to the specs, can you compare sub x to sub y" please stop. If the sub you want tested is not on the list, do it yourself, or buy the sub and send it to Craig.

+1million, plz shut the hell up, or buy the sub and send it to craig.

A quick update: The Castle is a heck of a sub. I know that is not anything scientific, but I was rather dreading pulling the Conquest out last night, but one the Castle was dialed in, and we listened to some music and watched an Episode of "Heroes", it was time for smiles. This sub can move some air.

A quick update: The Castle is a heck of a sub. I know that is not anything scientific, but I was rather dreading pulling the Conquest out last night, but one the Castle was dialed in, and we listened to some music and watched an Episode of "Heroes", it was time for smiles. This sub can move some air.

cant wait to hear how the castle compares to the a5-350. any quick thoughts, or do we have to wait?

A quick update: The Castle is a heck of a sub. I know that is not anything scientific, but I was rather dreading pulling the Conquest out last night, but one the Castle was dialed in, and we listened to some music and watched an Episode of "Heroes", it was time for smiles. This sub can move some air.

You should have done the Valor first, then Castle, then Conquest. Cause now that you've listened to the Conquest, from here on out is lower powered subs which will 'disappoint' compared to the Conquest.

Should have worked your way up ;) Thats why the bad news is often given first when asked 'You want the bad news or the good news first?"

Be glad that he didn't stop testing subs once he did that 400lb monster.

A quick update: The Castle is a heck of a sub. I know that is not anything scientific, but I was rather dreading pulling the Conquest out last night, but one the Castle was dialed in, and we listened to some music and watched an Episode of "Heroes", it was time for smiles. This sub can move some air.

Hi Craig,

After your great feedback on the Salk Song Towers...do you have any plans to listen to & review the matching Salk Song Sub?

Pete

I emailed my sales rep over 2 weeks ago and haven't gotten a reply. Weird.

I got a reply from Kyle, but the reply was "I don't have that information." The reason they can't tell us anything, from what I understand, is taht they just have one master preorder list. People's initial finishes are indicated, but until the order is finalized, you can change your finish but keep the same spot in line. So I think they're having to wait until they work down the list a bit to be able to give estimates. All I got out of Kyle is that I'm in the top half of the list. I preordered in June.

It's all good. I'm just dying for my new sub. My x-sub is a decent performer, but I want some serious bass!

Hey Craig,

Excited to see the initial impression of the Castle. I'm dying to hear if you think it is worth the extra $$$ over the E5-350. I really like the forward facing configuration and if the test results show a marked improvement over the ED, then i'm probably gonna get a Castle, if not...... hummmmmmm

Any quick thoughts on which sub sounds better?

Thanks for all of your work, it's appreciated.

I hvae been following this thread for a couple of weeks now(ever since i found this site actually), and i just wanted to say thanks for all the great info everyone, especially craig. The time that you put into this is such a great resource for people like me who know next to nothing about all the different brands and the particulars of subs in general. There is almost no way i could make a truly informed decision without resources(people like you) to help me. Thanks man, and keep up the great work.

I am eyeing picking up either the a5-350 or maybe the castle. They both seem like a great bang for the buck, and i am looking forward to seeing what you think of it compared to the 350.

I hvae been following this thread for a couple of weeks now(ever since i found this site actually), and i just wanted to say thanks for all the great info everyone, especially craig. The time that you put into this is such a great resource for people like me who know next to nothing about all the different brands and the particulars of subs in general. There is almost no way i could make a truly informed decision without resources(people like you) to help me. Thanks man, and keep up the great work.

I am eyeing picking up either the a5-350 or maybe the castle. They both seem like a great bang for the buck, and i am looking forward to seeing what you think of it compared to the 350.
It is always good to see another "freak" here...................LOL!!!!! :p:p

it look like alot of us want to see comparisons of the a5-350, and the castle. the castle with shipping would be closer to the a7-450, not the sealed version. craigsub, do you have a a7-450 to review?

Warlord, no one has an A7-450 yet. As far as I know eD has not yet completed one.

Warlord, no one has an A7-350 yet. As far as I know eD has not yet completed one.

thats what i figured, but thought maybe craigsub would be among the first. at $1300 they would be closer to a shipped castle , than the a5-350. thx.

You mean the A7-450?

You mean the A7-450?

Yes I do. Thank you. Correction made.

Warlord, no one has an A7-450 yet. As far as I know eD has not yet completed one.

Yeah we have :)

Came out of paint yesterday.

Just need to get pics and finish up the page for it.

YAY.

Ahhh, the joy of giving birth, in this case to a 250lb baby! :)

By the way Chris, as busy as I know you are, thank you for finding the time to hang around here a bit.

Ahhh, the joy of giving birth, in this case to a 250lb baby! :)

By the way Chris, as busy as I know you are, thank you for finding the time to hang around here a bit.

I multi-task well.

Luckily I get to hang around my computer sometimes...today is catch up on custom designs day.

Monday/Tuesday though was all shipping to get those EHQS 12's out of here.

Our FedEx man was lucky in that he was waved through the weigh station on the way back to his depot on Tuesday. He thinks the 4 tons of stuff we shipped that day might have been a bit too much according to the scale.

Oh, and it's only a 207 pound baby when naked, I can't imagine paint adds a full 40 pounds, I'd guess it at about 215 now :)

It won't be sold for many months though right?
On-topic: Craig, can you evaluate ED A7 - 600 ?
Chris, how does 600 compare to a5-350 in your opinion?

It won't be sold for many months though right?
On-topic: Craig, can you evaluate ED A7 - 600 ?
Chris, how does 600 compare to a5-350 in your opinion?

More output from the A7-600 without a doubt, more output from more cone area and double the power, lower tuning frequency, and larger cabinet.

They really are two completely different items.

Now two A5-350's vs an A7-600, thats a little closer match-up.

but that would be two 15" though..thats what I was wondering about, how much more is dual 12" compared to single 15"

I love how the subwoofer area has changed in the last year.

A little parity and this thread has done wonders.

but that would be two 15" though..thats what I was wondering about, how much more is dual 12" compared to single 15"

All things being equal (they rarely are) the two 12" drivers should be able to move about 28% more air than a single 15".

Better comparison due to pricing.

A7-450 vs. A7-600.

A7-600 loses :)

It's very likely that the A7-600 will be removed from the site in the near future as the A7-450 will pretty well cannibalize the sales. They model pretty much identical from 30Hz +, but at 20Hz, the 450 is about 2dB higher and from there down it's pretty much a 6~7dB difference all the way down.

Lower tuning on the 450 vs. the 600 really kills it.

Nice.

Chris, have you experimented with variable tuning on the 450 (ala 13Ultra)?

Better comparison due to pricing.

A7-450 vs. A7-600.

A7-600 loses :)

It's very likely that the A7-600 will be removed from the site in the near future as the A7-450 will pretty well cannibalize the sales. They model pretty much identical from 30Hz +, but at 20Hz, the 450 is about 2dB higher and from there down it's pretty much a 6~7dB difference all the way down.

Lower tuning on the 450 vs. the 600 really kills it.

But when is a7-450 coming out and how much will it cost?

But when is a7-450 coming out and how much will it cost?

The A7-450 is made to order and right now before the price increase in Jan. they are $1300 shipped.

Nice.

Chris, have you experimented with variable tuning on the 450 (ala 13Ultra)?

I don't think it'd be worth it for the massive chuffing resulting from 1 or 2 4" ports on an 18" sub :)

But uhh, here's a link to the computer generated response graphs:

http://www.icixsound.com/vb/icixnation/images/83_869.jpg

I don't think it'd be worth it for the massive chuffing resulting from 1 or 2 4" ports on an 18" sub :)

But uhh, here's a link to the computer generated response graphs:

http://www.icixsound.com/vb/icixnation/images/83_869.jpgJust add 6 more cubic feet :D

116db@20hz!!! :eek: Christ! Don't make me have to buy one of those!

I don't think it'd be worth it for the massive chuffing resulting from 1 or 2 4" ports on an 18" sub :)

But uhh, here's a link to the computer generated response graphs:

http://www.icixsound.com/vb/icixnation/images/83_869.jpg

does that mean I can plug a port in mine since each of them won't be playing as loud? :)

That would get you about 110db at 11hz!

That would get you about 110db at 11hz!

but looking at the model graphs, does that mean I need some sort of EQ boost to flatten the response? doesn't SVS have a boost down low for every tuning lower than stock?

but looking at the model graphs, does that mean I need some sort of EQ boost to flatten the response? doesn't SVS have a boost down low for every tuning lower than stock?

What you are looking at here is not the frequency response, but the power response. It shows the maximum output at all of the frequencies during a high-powered sweep. It gives a good indication of maximum capability of the sub. The frequency response would be measured at a much lower level, like maybe 90db, and would undoubtably be much flatter.

I know you are getting two of these beasts and you are gonna hurt yourself!

yeah, after 10 years ... it's finally in the paint room. (oh it's only been 35 days, felt like 10 years though). and then there's the 30 day shipping to me.

2 more subs and I can plug 2 ports! :)

is it technically possible to build a sealed subwoofer that is flat down to 16hz ?

is it technically possible to build a sealed subwoofer that is flat down to 16hz ?

yes with EQ

That's exactly what I'm going for w/ my A7S-450 and eq/2 (eD's parametric 2 band EQ).

I listen in the 70-85db range generally with the family and the sub 20's will require some boost to achieve a near flat response. I'll post results once I have the eq/2 in hand sometime in Jan/Feb (pre-production currently so no firm ETA).

Even the new beasty from JL possesses active EQ for that sub 20 range, granted for $11k it comes with its own microphone and EQ's itself based on your room without any user intervention, but that's besides the point :)

michael

Chris, if you are out there: how does the A7-700 compare to the A7-900? The size is certainly a bit easier for a lot of folks to deal with. Lack of info on the website makes it tough, such as tuning (not 'in room').

Thanks if you can help with this!

Chris, if you are out there: how does the A7-700 compare to the A7-900? The size is certainly a bit easier for a lot of folks to deal with. Lack of info on the website makes it tough, such as tuning (not 'in room').

Thanks if you can help with this!

last time I asked that question, I believe port tuning is 20hz for the A7-700 and 18hz for the A7-900

somebody correct me if I'm wrong

Hello forum friends,

I just received my A7-900 and placed it into the theater tonight. Freight Co was not to friendly with it. Two feet got knocked off and the sub was only half on the pallet. It is not EDs fault (freight co fault). Some two part epoxy will take care of the feet and you will never know. With the condition it was received not a scratch or dent anywhere! You really do not know IMHO how big 26.5 x 26 x 49 inches is untill you get into your theater. The Danley looks like a dwarf! I will post my opinion this weekend. I need to relax and let my back take a break. This thing is heavy!

rmlowz

can you share some pics of the sub in your HT and of the damage?

Hello forum friends,

I just received my A7-900 and placed it into the theater tonight. Freight Co was not to friendly with it. Two feet got knocked off and the sub was only half on the pallet. It is not EDs fault (freight co fault). Some two part epoxy will take care of the feet and you will never know. With the condition it was received not a scratch or dent anywhere! You really do not know IMHO how big 26.5 x 26 x 49 inches is untill you get into your theater. The Danley looks like a dwarf! I will post my opinion this weekend. I need to relax and let my back take a break. This thing is heavy!

rmlowz

sucks about the shipping damage

very nice christmas present though :D

Hello.

I will set up everything and post some pics ASAP.

rmlowz

I'm looking for a new sub for my HT. Loudspeakers are small Magnepans (SMGc x2, MMG-W x4, MMG-C). What will work better PB13-Ultra or two a5-350 in the front left and right corners of the relatively small room (~1000 ft^3)? I don't need extreme volume, more interested in SQ.

Craig, I'm not sure if you read the posts after you came back from your little vacation, but I want to know have you ever tested the PB13 in 15Hz tune with WOTW and other movies? According to GP results, 15Hz tune increases 12.5Hz by 10dB!! WOTW has loads of subsonic content, and I believe the 15Hz tune would make WOTW a much better "experience". If it is better, would the score change? BTW have you listened to music with the PB13 in sealed mode? pbc claim it sounded better in sealed mode.

I'm looking for a new sub for my HT. Loudspeakers are small Magnepans (SMGc x2, MMG-W x4, MMG-C). What will work better PB13-Ultra or two a5-350 in the front left and right corners of the relatively small room (~1000 ft^3)? I don't need extreme volume, more interested in SQ.

Because you are more interested with SQ, the PB13 will be better than 2 a5-350. But be careful, the PB13 might do some structural damage since you got a really small room and this sub is incredibly loud.

I give up! Ordered the BIG BEAST from eD...and some other goodies as well. The threatened price increase was enough to propel my action. Now...get the room painted this weekend; ceiling mount the new Panny 2000 pj; connect the new 3808; bring in the new Berklines...and wait for the monster.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!

Craig, I'm not sure if you read the posts after you came back from your little vacation, but I want to know have you ever tested the PB13 in 15Hz tune with WOTW and other movies? According to GP results, 15Hz tune increases 12.5Hz by 10dB!! WOTW has loads of subsonic content, and I believe the 15Hz tune would make WOTW a much better "experience". If it is better, would the score change? BTW have you listened to music with the PB13 in sealed mode? pbc claim it sounded better in sealed mode.

I have tried the Ultra-13 both ways, and it is pretty hard (as in almost impossible) to hear a difference between 20 and 15 Hz on program material.

When you consider that 12.5 Hz requires close to 98 dB before becoming even noticeable, it is no surprise.

When one of the guys purchasing the Fathom 113 was here, I had it sitting about 6 inches behind a chair he was sitting in, and ran a 12.5 Hz sine wave at max SPL and asked if he noticed anything.

He didn't.

rmlowz,
I can't wait for your impressions on the A7-900. I also owned the klipsch thx ultra 2 subs and system so I have a something to compare with.

Why don't I see the a7-450 on the site if it's already being sold?
What about the a7s-450, how does it compare? It's probably not as loud, but is it tighter? Does it cost the same?

When one of the guys purchasing the Fathom 113 was here, I had it sitting about 6 inches behind a chair he was sitting in, and ran a 12.5 Hz sine wave at max SPL and asked if he noticed anything.

He didn't.

Are you serious?! Do you mean the Fathom or the PB13U? Either way, I can guarantee you if I ran a 12.5 Hz sine wave through my sub at full power and you were anywhere near it, you'd notice!! :D Of course you'd feel it more than hear it. :cool: And I imagine the same could be said for the Conquest.

Are you serious?! Do you mean the Fathom or the PB13U? Either way, I can guarantee you if I ran a 12.5 Hz sine wave through my sub at full power and you were anywhere near it, you'd notice!! :D Of course you'd feel it more than hear it. :cool: And I imagine the same could be said for the Conquest.

If one hears anything with most subs, it will be either distortion or a room resonance. It requires close to 100 dB before one starts feeling it (12.5 Hz is "feel", not hear - take a sub outside, and run a high level 12.5 Hz signal in it, and you will know what I mean) ... I have done this "test" under blind conditions with a lot of guys. Yes, if you have a REALLY big subwoofer, that can deliver enough SPL (clean) at 12.5 Hz, you will feel it. However, this chase for 12.5 Hz at the expense of proper 20-80 Hz reproduction is pretty much a waste. Get the 20-80 Hz done right first, then handle the below 20 Hz arena. I have seen your subwoofer. Let's just say most households won't allow something like that in the room. The A7-900 was able to deliver suitable bass in the 10-15 Hz arena that was palpable.

My wife HATES that sub. In fact, she wants the Conquest to go to live with it in "Manland" when it is complete. Manland is going to be a great guy's hang out, when done.

It is always amusing what happens to all these "are you kidding me, in MY system, I can hear .... (fill in blank)" comments when the person is not told, and does not know, what he/she is hearing. ;)

Craig, have you ever gotten a chance to see the excursion of subs?

Craig,

Does there seem to be a magic number that once subs reach that point, a flat frequency responses below that either come at a high premium in size or cost that it's hard to justify?

For example, the Conquest is marginally better than say a PB13, but the tradeoff in size isn't worth a extra hz or two. No flames anyone, just using the Conquest and PB13 as examples.

Chengbin ... Yes, and the scariest had to be the Fathom delivering that high level 12.5 Hz signal. Manville said I could not destroy it, and he was right.

Jim ... Here is what we have found to be true, with a lot of consistency, in terms of subwoofer performance, in order of importance:

1. Get a linear response from 25 Hz all the way through the crossover to the mains. Once this is achieved, a very enjoyable movie/music experience will be had.

2. After "1." is achieved, get that bass response to 20 Hz.

3. 16 Hz is next

4. Anything below 16 Hz is going to fall under the "if you can afford it, go for it", as long as numbers 1-2-3 are met.

Let's take an extreme example: The Thigpen Rotary subwoofer. Once installation is calculated, you are looking at appx. $20,000 to get 1-20 Hz reproduction.

I would much rather put the $20,000 into better mains, room treatments, etc ... and get a proper 16 Hz extension.

To your specific question ... Size does need to be considered for the typical person's room, yes. Subwoofers like the Conquest and A7-900, while fun to play with, are not going to work in a lot of "real home" situations.

Using our house as an example, my wife likes the Ultra. It looks like furniture.

She does not like any of the Epik or eD subs, especially the biggest ones.

She DOES, however, find the Castle to be "somewhat" acceptable, because it can be discreetly placed in a room.

And I like the Castle because it is a terrific sounding subwoofer ... based on ears only, I think it does all of 1 and 2, and most of 3, as listed above.

The same thing applies to the eD A5-350.

Craig,

Do you need to use an EQ such as the SMS-1 or the Behringer 2496 to accomplish #1 on your list above?

Also, are you getting close to a write-up for the Valor? I'm close to pulling the trigger on one and I'm waiting (impatiently :)) to see where it falls score wise in comparison to other subs.

Thanks!

Chris, if you are out there: how does the A7-700 compare to the A7-900? The size is certainly a bit easier for a lot of folks to deal with. Lack of info on the website makes it tough, such as tuning (not 'in room').

Thanks if you can help with this!

Between 17 and 18Hz on an A7-900 I believe is the real tuning of the enclosure. I'd have to model it to get the exact # again, but it's like 17.8Hz or something silly like that.

Tuning on the A7-700 it at 19Hz.

Comparing the two would be difficult since I haven't listened to an A7-700 in many months as we sold the demo unit locally.

In our listening room the A7-700 was more than enough. The A7-900 was way more than that.

Craig,

Do you need to use an EQ such as the SMS-1 or the Behringer 2496 to accomplish #1 on your list above?

Also, are you getting close to a write-up for the Valor? I'm close to pulling the trigger on one and I'm waiting (impatiently :)) to see where it falls score wise in comparison to other subs.

Thanks!

This depends on the room, and the subwoofer location in the room.

As for the Valor, order one. It's a great unit. Testing won't be done for a couple of weeks, as my son's prep school swim team has 4 meets between now and the 15th.

If one hears anything with most subs, it will be either distortion or a room resonance. It requires close to 100 dB before one starts feeling it (12.5 Hz is "feel", not hear - take a sub outside, and run a high level 12.5 Hz signal in it, and you will know what I mean)

Right. That's why I said you'd notice it. :) After I stood my sub up on end and pushed into the corner to see how it would sound, I discovered a full power 13 Hz sine wave would make the 200+ pound cabinet visibly rock to and fro (at the top). Pretty much everything in the room was shaking. So while you cannot hear the fundamental 12.5 Hz tone, there's PLENTY to be felt or "noticed". ;)

But I would love to take it outside and test it as you describe. I'm sure the difference in perceived output is profound.

Yes, if you have a REALLY big subwoofer, that can deliver enough SPL (clean) at 12.5 Hz, you will feel it. However, this chase for 12.5 Hz at the expense of proper 20-80 Hz reproduction is pretty much a waste. Get the 20-80 Hz done right first, then handle the below 20 Hz arena.

Can you elaborate on this or provide an example of how 20-80Hz gets "sacrificed" (for lack of a better term) in the chase for 12.5 Hz? I'm not totally clear on what you mean.

I have seen your subwoofer.

Hey... you say that like it's a BAD thing! :D

The A7-900 was able to deliver suitable bass in the 10-15 Hz arena that was palpable.

With two 18" drivers, I imagine it could provide more significantly more output than the Conquest in that frequency range, correct?

Between 17 and 18Hz on an A7-900 I believe is the real tuning of the enclosure. I'd have to model it to get the exact # again, but it's like 17.8Hz or something silly like that.

Tuning on the A7-700 it at 19Hz.

Comparing the two would be difficult since I haven't listened to an A7-700 in many months as we sold the demo unit locally.

In our listening room the A7-700 was more than enough. The A7-900 was way more than that.


Yeah, answer me after I order the A7-900 ;) ... the A7-700 was my plan before, and I actually spoke w/ you on the phone about the cabinet. I've still got some 16Ov.2's sitting around...and not nearly enough time to actually build anything. Unfortunately you guys were quoting me a shipped price on the cabinet that just didn't make any sense (basically buy the amp and the drivers were almost free for a prebuilt A7-700).

Oh well...the BEAST is ordered (along w/ a bunch of other speakers...). Now the wait...and time to paint the theater room!

Chengbin ... Yes, and the scariest had to be the Fathom delivering that high level 12.5 Hz signal. Manville said I could not destroy it, and he was right.

Jim ... Here is what we have found to be true, with a lot of consistency, in terms of subwoofer performance, in order of importance:

1. Get a linear response from 25 Hz all the way through the crossover to the mains. Once this is achieved, a very enjoyable movie/music experience will be had.

2. After "1." is achieved, get that bass response to 20 Hz.

3. 16 Hz is next

4. Anything below 16 Hz is going to fall under the "if you can afford it, go for it", as long as numbers 1-2-3 are met.

Let's take an extreme example: The Thigpen Rotary subwoofer. Once installation is calculated, you are looking at appx. $20,000 to get 1-20 Hz reproduction.

I would much rather put the $20,000 into better mains, room treatments, etc ... and get a proper 16 Hz extension.

To your specific question ... Size does need to be considered for the typical person's room, yes. Subwoofers like the Conquest and A7-900, while fun to play with, are not going to work in a lot of "real home" situations.

Using our house as an example, my wife likes the Ultra. It looks like furniture.

She does not like any of the Epik or eD subs, especially the biggest ones.

She DOES, however, find the Castle to be "somewhat" acceptable, because it can be discreetly placed in a room.

And I like the Castle because it is a terrific sounding subwoofer ... based on ears only, I think it does all of 1 and 2, and most of 3, as listed above.

The same thing applies to the eD A5-350.

Great information.
Might want to add it to the synopsis/summary post.

Great information.
Might want to add it to the synopsis/summary post.

I agree with Jim Craigsub. This is good information and is echoed by many of the folks here at AVS, so it's good material for newbie bassheads (or returning ones such as myself :)).

michael

Chengbin ... Yes, and the scariest had to be the Fathom delivering that high level 12.5 Hz signal. Manville said I could not destroy it, and he was right.



You're right. The JL does have INSANE excursion capability. I saw the excursion of a W7 13 at youtube and it is CRAZY!
Have you seen the PB13's driver excursion? If you have seen it, is it closer to 2 inch or 3''?

Right. That's why I said you'd notice it. :) After I stood my sub up on end and pushed into the corner to see how it would sound, I discovered a full power 13 Hz sine wave would make the 200+ pound cabinet visibly rock to and fro (at the top). Pretty much everything in the room was shaking. So while you cannot hear the fundamental 12.5 Hz tone, there's PLENTY to be felt or "noticed". ;)

But I would love to take it outside and test it as you describe. I'm sure the difference in perceived output is profound.



Can you elaborate on this or provide an example of how 20-80Hz gets "sacrificed" (for lack of a better term) in the chase for 12.5 Hz? I'm not totally clear on what you mean.



Hey... you say that like it's a BAD thing! :D



With two 18" drivers, I imagine it could provide more significantly more output than the Conquest in that frequency range, correct?

Hopefully this won't get out of hand ... this is my best attempt at typing this (it would be an easier conversation in person):

Up until a couple of years ago, linearity was not often (if ever) mentioned in a subwoofer's performance. We still see many systems in which the subwoofer-main speaker interface has a disconnect.

The (generic) system will have the ability to deliver 115 dB, in room, @ 15 Hz, while 60 Hz is 110 dB, and the mains clip at 105 dB.

It is something that discussing here has caused deleted threads, accusations of incompetence and about lack of manhood, etc ....

The best way to answer your question is with a question ...

I have seen 8 gazillion posts about the 15 Hz performance of a sub. I cannot remember the last time someone asked or mentioned the 80 Hz performance of someone's system.

Can you ?

I understand what you mean by the apparent obsession with high SPL infrasonic output and the associated bragging rights, but I am not aware any particular subwoofer or popular design that significantly hinders 20 to 80 Hz performance in the pursuit of high SPL at 12.5 or 15 Hz. Usually it just requires going LARGE with both the driver and the cabinet, and that doesn't necessarily mean poor performance at higher frequencies. Again, if you have any specific examples I am very interested in hearing about them.

Couldn't the non-linearity in system response you describe also be looked at as somewhat of a "house curve" with the goal being a perceived linear in-room response? Of course I understand there is a difference between an EQ'ed in-room response and the actual maximium output the system is capable of across the frequency spectrum. I don't mean to disregard or blur that distinction, but it if you are indeed going for a "house curve" type of response you may also want to design the system to match that in terms of max SPL at various frequencies.

I'm glad you use the word "system" because at frequencies both above and below 80 Hz (or whatever the crossover is) both the subwoofer and mains are in play. But I'm still unclear as to how this relates to evaluating subwoofer performance. Maybe it doesn't and that wasn't your point. Maybe you just mean that at the end of the day things like proper crossover selection, EQ, room design/treatments, and matching of sub to mains (or vice versa) are more important than maximum SPL output at 12.5 Hz.

I don't know.

Give me the Thigpen and a crossover w/ my bookshelves.
Don't you know how a crossover works?!?

Can you elaborate on this or provide an example of how 20-80Hz gets "sacrificed" (for lack of a better term) in the chase for 12.5 Hz? I'm not totally clear on what you mean.



Here is an example of this using one sub in different tuning modes, in this case a PB13 in 20hz mode vs 10hz mode. Notice how the ruler-flat response and high output from 20hz on up in the 20hz mode becomes much less flat with less output when the tuning is dropped to 10hz for the sake of deeper response.

So, what tuning mode would be the best for the PB13 (20/15 or 10)?

Here is an example of this using one sub in different tuning modes, in this case a PB13 in 20hz mode vs 10hz mode. Notice how the ruler-flat response and high output from 20hz on up in the 20hz mode becomes much less flat with less output when the tuning is dropped to 10hz for the sake of deeper response.

I understand that by tuning lower you do lose some output, no longer having ruler flat response across the board. Not trying to mince words, but I consider that more of a small compromise than big sacrifice. With room gain effects, you may very well still have abundant output in the 20-30 Hz region where the lower tune exacts a bit of a toll.

I understand what you mean by the apparent obsession with high SPL infrasonic output and the associated bragging rights, but I am not aware any particular subwoofer or popular design that significantly hinders 20 to 80 Hz performance in the pursuit of high SPL at 12.5 or 15 Hz. Usually it just requires going LARGE with both the driver and the cabinet, and that doesn't necessarily mean poor performance at higher frequencies. Again, if you have any specific examples I am very interested in hearing about them.

I expect Craig is wise enough not to go down the downward spiral of citing examples. He did cite the Thigpen device, which makes the point plenty well.

Seriously though, one of the most common and counter-productive things for any reviewer (of any sort) to do is to try and explain all of the "why" behind what they are experiencing. This is where 90% of the audiophile wives tales and disinformation originates from. Craig's response was appropriate in that he expressed what his experiences have shown him to be important in terms of what a subwoofer has to DO. How a subwoofer accomplishes a particular feat should be a thing of hypothesis and suspicion, not statement of fact. As has been proven over and over in the audio world, you can screw up most any design, and make even the most Rube Goldberg-like effort sound impressive. :rolleyes:

Trade-offs can most certainly be made against the overall linearity and capability of a design in the 25-80Hz range vs the 10-20Hz performance. This is even more true if box size is of any concern. If there weren't trade offs to be made, we wouldn't see products with variable tuning options.


Couldn't the non-linearity in system response you describe also be looked at as somewhat of a "house curve" with the goal being a perceived linear in-room response? Of course I understand there is a difference between an EQ'ed in-room response and the actual maximium output the system is capable of across the frequency spectrum. I don't mean to disregard or blur that distinction, but it if you are indeed going for a "house curve" type of response you may also want to design the system to match that in terms of max SPL at various frequencies.

I think you will find that both those in the industry and oppinions of listeners vary greatly on what is "desired" so far as power response of the subwoofer and net in-room response. Of course many will make hyper-confident statements of "how things should be," citing a few examples, but despite the effort, that doesn't make it fact. Listening spaces and preferences differ greatly, and with those differences, you will find unique sets of useful goals that might better serve one range of spaces over another. To think there is one correct answer or perfect fit is grossly naive IMO.


I'm glad you use the word "system" because at frequencies both above and below 80 Hz (or whatever the crossover is) both the subwoofer and mains are in play. But I'm still unclear as to how this relates to evaluating subwoofer performance. Maybe it doesn't and that wasn't your point. Maybe you just mean that at the end of the day things like proper crossover selection, EQ, room design/treatments, and matching of sub to mains (or vice versa) are more important than maximum SPL output at 12.5 Hz.

I would say that is certainly part of what Craig intended to communicate. You seem to be taking the stance that getting strong response below 20Hz would come with no other performance compromises in a system. For some cases that is true, but that is generally not the case. The simple creation of a driver capable of VLF performance and the required excursion, motor strength or volume displacement is a careful ballance of compromises or an increasingly expensive effort in time or material. In a world of ideal drivers and infinite amplifier headroom, your position makes sense. In the real world such choices aren't so clear.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p295/cyclaptor/Faceplant.gif

Hello forum friends,

Quote: Rich is very experienced and knows his subwoofer stuff, and his assessment on the Danley is more than welcome.

Thanks for the compliment Craig, but my learning curve is nowhere near yours. I have learned a great deal from you! As everybody knows pros and cons to all gear. The Danley will go lower (12Hz) in my room. Think of the Danley as a sub that goes down deep with unlimited authority. It really is the only sub that I have owned that scares me at loud volumes. You don't know what is going to happen projector fall off the ceiling land in your lap or what! The Danley (in my room) does not have that 40Hz punch you in the chest that I like for theater. I then went and bought two JTR Growlers for the 40 hz. It is an amazing combo the best that I have heard in my room. You add the Danley two Growlers two amps you are at a MSRP of 7,200.00. The Conquest will do everything the Danley and the Growlers and will do except go down to the 12hz region and not play as loud. This is in my room of coarse some forum friends may get 12Hz in their room. The Conquest will go very close in output as the Danley Growler combo for only at my house 1775.00 delivered!!! I will be happy with the Conquest for a long time (that's what I told the wife). What I really want to hear is the Conquest and the A7-900 played together. Chad also has me excited about his new up and coming high end sealed subs that I would like to try. Thanks Craig for giving me the opportunity to give my opinion on what I heard at my house.

Thanks for the mini review. You mentioned that the DTS-20 has more output at the really deep freq's than the Conquest and apparently it's substantially more. This is astounding to me since the DTS-20 only uses a single 12" driver,
which I believe is a modified Lab 12(could be wrong) and has a less powerful amp. Apparently the TH design is no joke!

Would you mind another review for the DTS-20, Conquest, and A7-900 now that you have all 3? It'd be much appreciated. I'm interested if the DTS-20 has more grunt down low than the A7-900 too.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p295/cyclaptor/Faceplant.gif

My thoughts exactly! LOL!

I understand what you mean by the apparent obsession with high SPL infrasonic output and the associated bragging rights, but I am not aware any particular subwoofer or popular design that significantly hinders 20 to 80 Hz performance in the pursuit of high SPL at 12.5 or 15 Hz. Usually it just requires going LARGE with both the driver and the cabinet, and that doesn't necessarily mean poor performance at higher frequencies. Again, if you have any specific examples I am very interested in hearing about them.

Couldn't the non-linearity in system response you describe also be looked at as somewhat of a "house curve" with the goal being a perceived linear in-room response? Of course I understand there is a difference between an EQ'ed in-room response and the actual maximium output the system is capable of across the frequency spectrum. I don't mean to disregard or blur that distinction, but it if you are indeed going for a "house curve" type of response you may also want to design the system to match that in terms of max SPL at various frequencies.

I'm glad you use the word "system" because at frequencies both above and below 80 Hz (or whatever the crossover is) both the subwoofer and mains are in play. But I'm still unclear as to how this relates to evaluating subwoofer performance. Maybe it doesn't and that wasn't your point. Maybe you just mean that at the end of the day things like proper crossover selection, EQ, room design/treatments, and matching of sub to mains (or vice versa) are more important than maximum SPL output at 12.5 Hz.

I know you are not trying to, but this is what happens when people take a small snippet of a long post, and try to make a point.

This got started when I was asked about the Ultra in 15 vs. 20 Hz tuning.

We now have Sherv posting his typical asinine non response "Oh Snap" video.

This is why conversations about these types of subjects are best left for over a beer.

Hello,

Quote:This is why conversations about these types of subjects are best left for over a beer.

I colud not agree more. I just wish that Pennsylvania was not so far of a drive from Austin. I could learn a lot from you Craig over some beers.

rmlowz

Hello,

Quote:This is why conversations about these types of subjects are best left for over a beer.

I colud not agree more. I just wish that Pennsylvania was not so far of a drive from Austin. I could learn a lot from you Craig over some beers.

rmlowz

A guy with Danley, A7-900, Conquest, and all the other subs learn from me ?

Thanks, but let's just say it would be a great conversation ... and let's add BTP, too. :)

I'd be in on that but I prefer Marguritas these days.

I know you are not trying to, but this is what happens when people take a small snippet of a long post, and try to make a point.

This got started when I was asked about the Ultra in 15 vs. 20 Hz tuning.

We now have Sherv posting his typical asinine non response "Oh Snap" video.

This is why conversations about these types of subjects are best left for over a beer.

That's too bad. I think you know I am not trying to bait you or prove some point. My questions are sincere and my curiosity is genuine. I'm here to share what little I know and learn what I can, to have honest and respectful dialogue with people that share many of the same passions. Most of the time I am blissfully unaware of past forum/thread "train wrecks" and don't think of any particular subject as taboo.

Hello Craig,


Sounds good to me. In the very near future I want to quit working so hard and do some traveling I then could make that happen. I believe you know how to tweek on a sub better than I. Honestly after treating my entire room with Auralex I have been very lucky with room response. With how it sounds and feels to me in my room. I am really a plug and play kinda guy. My problem is I get bored and buy new stuff all the time.

Take Care,

rmlowz

Hey, it was what it was. An interesting conversation on an apporpriate subject between several knowledgeable guys expressing viewpoints and exchanging information. No right. No wrong. Different viewpoints and different perspectives. I enjoyed it. It was considerably more stimulating than, "Craig, when are you going to test XXXX sub?"

When you going to come through Austin tobester so we can have Margaritas? Two bottles of Tequila are in the cabinet right now!

rmlowz

That's too bad. I think you know I am not trying to bait you or prove some point. My questions are sincere and my curiosity is genuine. I'm here to share what little I know and learn what I can, to have honest and respectful dialogue with people that share many of the same passions. Most of the time I am blissfully unaware of past forum/thread "train wrecks" and don't think of any particular subject as taboo.

No worries, my friend. I think the best way to put this is it would take about 200 paragraphs to do this topic justice, and no one here has done anything so terrible to deserve that ... :D

You are always very reasonable ... and you also built some VERY cool subs. Sometime, if you get the chance, post some of your pics here ... I know there are a lot of guys who would love what you did. :)

We now have Sherv posting his typical asinine non response "Oh Snap" video.
here we go again with the insults.:rolleyes:

my reply was to Mark. It is an "On snap" as in "wow, excellent explanation" remark, and even he IM'd me with a thanks.

Have all your differences and grudges you want with me in a more respectful manner...I would appreciate that. I don't call you names, I would expect the same from you. Thus far, out of respect to you, i've stayed out of this thread for the most part, so I'm cordially asking that you refrain from your insults. You said it yourself on several occassions: "this is a hobby about subwoofers". You don't a single thing about me to call me names. It needs to stop.

here we go again with the insults.:rolleyes:

my reply was to Mark. It is an "On snap" as in "wow, excellent explanation" remark, and even he IM'd me with a thanks.

Have all your differences and grudges you want with me in a more respectful manner...I would appreciate that. I don't call you names, I would expect the same from you. Thus far, out of respect to you, i've stayed out of this thread for the most part, so I'm cordially asking that you refrain from your insults. You said it yourself on several occassions: "this is a hobby about subwoofers". You don't a single thing about me to call me names. It needs to stop.

Sherv ... You posted a video of a guy attempting a flip, but landing on his face, and you did so under the caption "Oh, Snap".

Asinine is defined as silly, but with an edge.

Your post was silly, with an edge, Sherv. It had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I never called you anything. I was referring to your post.

Lighten up. :cool:

Austin or PA. I need to go to one of the places so I can see an A7-900 in it's natural habitat with other speakers of a similar pedigree.

When you going to come through Austin tobester so we can have Margaritas? Two bottles of Tequila are in the cabinet right now!

rmlowz

I am kind of tied up right now. Could you just load the Conquest, Danley and A7-900 up in the pick-up and head north?:D

I would sure like to do that Rich. Informative and fun. It would answer some of my questions firsthand.

By the way, try this sometime with that tequila. In a blender add equal parts diet Mountain Dew, frozen limeaide, tequila. Fill with ice and blend. Tastes great and no headaches the next morning.:)

I am kind of tied up right now. Could you just load the Conquest, Danley and A7-900 up in the pick-up and head north?:D

I would sure like to do that Rich. Informative and fun. It would answer some of my questions firsthand.

By the way, try this sometime with that tequila. In a blender add equal parts diet Mountain Dew, frozen limeaide, tequila. Fill with ice and blend. Tastes great and no headaches the next morning.:)

That's only because you don't wake up for 2 days ... :D

Ps ... Would someone tell Sherv this is an asinine post, too ? :p

I expect Craig is wise enough not to go down the downward spiral of citing examples. He did cite the Thigpen device, which makes the point plenty well.

Actually I was hoping he might send me a PM. In retrospect, I should have asked him to do so.

I think you will find that both those in the industry and oppinions of listeners vary greatly on what is "desired" so far as power response of the subwoofer and net in-room response. Of course many will make hyper-confident statements of "how things should be," citing a few examples, but despite the effort, that doesn't make it fact. Listening spaces and preferences differ greatly, and with those differences, you will find unique sets of useful goals that might better serve one range of spaces over another. To think there is one correct answer or perfect fit is grossly naive IMO.

I agree and I presume you are not under the impression that I am some "know it all" type that likes to tell people how things should be. I tend to ask a lot of questions because I want to learn all that I can.

I would say that is certainly part of what Craig intended to communicate. You seem to be taking the stance that getting strong response below 20Hz would come with no other performance compromises in a system. For some cases that is true, but that is generally not the case. The simple creation of a driver capable of VLF performance and the required excursion, motor strength or volume displacement is a careful ballance of compromises or an increasingly expensive effort in time or material. In a world of ideal drivers and infinite amplifier headroom, your position makes sense. In the real world such choices aren't so clear.

I understand there are always compromises to be made, some of them in terms of performance and others in terms of practicality (size) and expense. What I don't quite understand is why you think I hold some position that doesn't make sense in the real world. :confused:

As this is Craig's thread and I don't want to muck it up or go too far off into the weeds, feel free to send me a PM.

Guys, stay on topic without getting personal please.

Jim ... Here is what we have found to be true, with a lot of consistency, in terms of subwoofer performance, in order of importance:

1. Get a linear response from 25 Hz all the way through the crossover to the mains. Once this is achieved, a very enjoyable movie/music experience will be had.

2. After "1." is achieved, get that bass response to 20 Hz.

3. 16 Hz is next

4. Anything below 16 Hz is going to fall under the "if you can afford it, go for it", as long as numbers 1-2-3 are met.

Let's take an extreme example: The Thigpen Rotary subwoofer. Once installation is calculated, you are looking at appx. $20,000 to get 1-20 Hz reproduction.

I would much rather put the $20,000 into better mains, room treatments, etc ... and get a proper 16 Hz extension.

To your specific question ... Size does need to be considered for the typical person's room, yes. Subwoofers like the Conquest and A7-900, while fun to play with, are not going to work in a lot of "real home" situations.

Using our house as an example, my wife likes the Ultra. It looks like furniture.

She does not like any of the Epik or eD subs, especially the biggest ones.

She DOES, however, find the Castle to be "somewhat" acceptable, because it can be discreetly placed in a room.

And I like the Castle because it is a terrific sounding subwoofer ... based on ears only, I think it does all of 1 and 2, and most of 3, as listed above.

The same thing applies to the eD A5-350.

Great overview. For many products I buy, I like to find that price range that you get as much performance as possible for the price. This often requires finding what characteristic are importantand focus on those. $1000-$1500 seemingly has been that sweet spot for subwoofers. Choose right and you can get GREAT performance in this range. The A5-350 seems to have busted this range, although you do give up some aesthetics. Spending more than this range gets you nicer finishes, smaller enclosures, etc, but arguable not a huge jump in performance for all but the most picky enthusiast.

Sherv ... You posted a video of a guy attempting a flip, but landing on his face, and you did so under the caption "Oh, Snap".

Asinine is defined as silly, but with an edge.

Your post was silly, with an edge, Sherv. It had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I never called you anything. I was referring to your post.

Lighten up. :cool:
I've never heard that particular definition for "assinine", but if that was your point of view, then cool.

ps- when did u know your son was a natural in swimming? thinking of putting my 4 year old in some program or something...little guy is pretty good at it.

That's only because you don't wake up for 2 days ... :D

Ps ... Would someone tell Sherv this is an asinine post, too ? :p

Don't call me an asinine. I have feellings.:D

Hello,

ssabripo are you the forum member that is going to have a meet at your house and said Mr Kennedy from JL audio is bringing the Gotham?

rmlowz

I've never heard that particular definition for "assinine", but if that was your point of view, then cool.

ps- when did u know your son was a natural in swimming? thinking of putting my 4 year old in some program or something...little guy is pretty good at it.

:D ... Sherv - The word is asinine .. not assinine. It is not formal for a$$hole. Honest. :eek::D

My son is not a natural at swimming ... he was forced into it after being diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at age 8. The first 2-3 years he looked like someone shot him, and he was falling off the starting blocks into the water.

If he is good at it, and likes it, at age 4 you want to get him into something that teaches while still being fun. I have seen a lot of kids that started really young, and were pushed too hard, and by the time high school hits, they are burned out.

Never mind; I see the post this referenced, my bad...

Guys, stay on topic without getting personal please.

If not; I believe we should continue to "fuel" this rumor!

btw - I heard it was two Gothams!

Hello,

ssabripo are you the forum member that is going to have a meet at your house and said Mr Kennedy from JL audio is bringing the Gotham?

rmlowz

Hello,

ssabripo are you the forum member that is going to have a meet at your house and said Mr Kennedy from JL audio is bringing the Gotham?

rmlowz
yes, hopefully.

nothing set in concrete, but hopefully carl will have time to make it to my house, and if so, maybe he will be kind enough to bring one. But he and Manville and the rest of the crew down there in pembroke pines are extremely busy people, and who knows if it will happen at all.

we shall see.

Craig, thanks for all the testing and info you have posted. I have a question in regards to what Sub you might recommend to go with my Cerwin Vega AT-15's. I think that the Conquest is the same size as one of my CV's but was wondering how you think they might sound together. I am using a pair of Cerwin Vega AT-8's as my Center speakers.

Doom ... If you add a Conquest to the Cerwin Vegas, you are going to have one killer system. I hope you have forgiving neighbors. Got for it ... and post pics !!! :D

I ordered a HSU 3.3 last Thursday to replace my current STF-2 (which I love), content that I got the best value for my money since it was on sale for $630. I figured based on my current experience with the STF-2, reading all the magazine reviews, many posts here and the subs ranking on the “Official Craigsub rankings thread” that I could not have gotten a significantly better sub unless I paid 3-5 times that, which was just out of the question. Then I notice the $600 ED AD-350 snuck into the list at 96 points, scoring higher than the $2600 JL Audio Fathom 112 and coming close to the same rank as the $3000 Def Tech Trinity. I figured it was too good to be true, until I starting reading enough about it to make my head spin and start to wonder if I should have bought it instead of the 3.3.

Now to be fair, I have not even received my 3.3 yet, and I am sure I will be blown away with it in my 1500 CF room. I also understand that this is a somewhat controversial rating system and many people may disagree with the rankings, and I am sure there are many people that prefer the sound of the 3.3 to the ED 350. But I also love to get the most for my money and a $600 sub ranking with the likes of $2500 subs got me curious, then again one could still say that the 3.3 is also a contender to subs costing 3 times as much.

Not really sure what type of info I plan to get from posting this, in a way I am glad I went ahead and just got the HSU being blind to the ED 350, otherwise I would have been reading posts here for ages and probably never deciding on anything, I will also being enjoying my HSU next week, while I hear the ED subs wont be shipping until next year since they are built to order and so many people are buying them, also after owing an STF-2 I am somewhat brand loyal now and like to support HSU. I guess my point is no matter how much obsessive research you do here until you convince yourself you are getting the best product out there that you budget allows, you will always be second guessing yourself not matter what

Craig, I have a Denon 4308CI running the CV's and it does sound good but probably no where as good as your systems. I'm still trying to decide on a Sub but will probably wait till after the holidays before I start purchase one. I like the conquest because it looks like the CV's. I also Like the SVS 13 and may even look at the Ed sub's, just not sure which would sound the best with the Vega's. I have my 52" XBR3 mounted to the wall so it won't fall over from the bass which ever sub I buy.

Sometimes, we find a subwoofer which does more than it should, according to all of the spec sheets and speculation.

When Talking to Chad about which subs to test, he kept coming back to the Castle as his "perfect storm" (my words, not his) subwoofer.

While he would not say it outright, it was pretty obvious that, if I were to only test one sub from Epik, the Castle would be the clear choice.

After testing the Conquest, I mentioned thinking it was capable of delivering more, with a more powerful amplifier.

I have no idea how powerful the amp is in the Castle, but the combo of amp, box size, tuning and the fantastic 15 inch driver have made for a tremendous product at a price which is astonishing.

Here are some graphs ...

Tuning point:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/castletuning.jpg

SPL on WOTW. This is using the same locations as the other subs. Remember, this is not a single sine wave sweep - it is a different type of torture test. Without knowing which sub was in the system, most of the panel could not tell the difference between the Conquest and the Castle on this scene.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/castlewotw.jpg

After several day's worth of evaluation, the Castle scores as follows:

Home Theater: 59 points
Music: 50 points

Total score: 109 points.

I ordered a HSU 3.3 last Thursday to replace my current STF-2 (which I love), content that I got the best value for my money since it was on sale for $630. I figured based on my current experience with the STF-2, reading all the magazine reviews, many posts here and the subs ranking on the “Official Craigsub rankings thread” that I could not have gotten a significantly better sub unless I paid 3-5 times that, which was just out of the question. Then I notice the $600 ED AD-350 snuck into the list at 96 points, scoring higher than the $2600 JL Audio Fathom 112 and coming close to the same rank as the $3000 Def Tech Trinity. I figured it was too good to be true, until I starting reading enough about it to make my head spin and start to wonder if I should have bought it instead of the 3.3.

Now to be fair, I have not even received my 3.3 yet, and I am sure I will be blown away with it in my 1500 CF room. I also understand that this is a somewhat controversial rating system and many people may disagree with the rankings, and I am sure there are many people that prefer the sound of the 3.3 to the ED 350. But I also love to get the most for my money and a $600 sub ranking with the likes of $2500 subs got me curious, then again one could still say that the 3.3 is also a contender to subs costing 3 times as much.

Not really sure what type of info I plan to get from posting this, in a way I am glad I went ahead and just got the HSU being blind to the ED 350, otherwise I would have been reading posts here for ages and probably never deciding on anything, I will also being enjoying my HSU next week, while I hear the ED subs wont be shipping until next year since they are built to order and so many people are buying them, also after owing an STF-2 I am somewhat brand loyal now and like to support HSU. I guess my point is no matter how much obsessive research you do here until you convince yourself you are getting the best product out there that you budget allows, you will always be second guessing yourself not matter what

Hello Matt-thought I would chime in here a bit. I just received my 3.3 on Friday. My room is a bit under 2000 ft.^3 but my room also has a hallway closet that is open to my living-room which in turn adds another 450 ft.^3. Further, I also have an opening to my small dining area/kitcken that is surrounded by preforated albeit not solid walls. In other words, my room really is just a tad under 3000 ft.^3 and let me just say the 3.3 does a superb job filling it. Thus far, I have been really impressed as it is extremely musical-that, of course, is what I was hoping to ascertain. At times, I am affraid to turn it up too much because the 3.3 flat out puts out and does so w/finesse. I run mine in MAX OUPUT mode with both ports open. Anyways, imho you made a good choice. Congrats on your purchase.

Wow, that is indeed impressive Craig. By the looks of for about $1100 you'll receive one HECK of a performer. 109 for under $1k. Next year this time, we'll have subs pushing 120 in your test for that price :)

Do you have plans to order & test an eD A7-450? I'd be curious how it compares (for a bit more money)

I can just see the newspaper headlines: "Erie, PA man discovers infrasonics in Frosty the Snowman christmas special, levels house from display of awesome power"

Thanks for the update on the Castle!

michael

move over Mayweather, we have a new p4p champ

Wow, I was trying to decide between the A5-350 and the Castle. Now my mind is definitely made up. I was astonished that it scored higher than the PB13 Ultra for HT. Does anyone have a Rosenut veneer Epik subwoofer to post a picture of? Is the top of the unit veneered? The picture on the site shows just the sides veneered.

This bodes well for the Caliber, Knight and Valor as well I would think. Although The Castle has a different amp and driver so maybe not.

Hello

Two Castle subs, three French hens and a pear tree for Christmas. Is that how the song goes?

rmlowz

Wow it looks like that castle is awesome. When i talked to chad though he seemed to suggest the conquest would pretty much blow the others out, except the tower which it would still deliver about 3db more at 20hz (if i remember correctly), and i thought the tower was 2-3db or so better than the castle which is a 7db margin..


Oh well, just slightly disappointed i didnt buy that sub as it would have fit quite a bit better in my living room and i would have saved a few hundred. I suppose if i had that sub though i'd be thinking i would have liked the extra power and cone size from the conquest. Still odd that an 18" sub in an enclosure thats probably 2x as big is only marginally better.

Wow, I was trying to decide between the A5-350 and the Castle. Now my mind is definitely made up. I was astonished that it scored higher than the PB13 Ultra for HT. Does anyone have a Rosenut veneer Epik subwoofer to post a picture of? Is the top of the unit veneered? The picture on the site shows just the sides veneered.

at $500 more than the a5 350 i can't see it beeing a better value

at $500 more than the a5 350 i can't see it beeing a better value

The cost of the unit wasn't my main concern. I wanted the best sub I could get at a reasonable cost (1500 budget). Obviously, I had to look at ED just for the sheer performance of it. However, I had a hunch that the Castle was going to outperform it decisively, so I wanted to wait for the results. The fact that the Castle scored 9 points higher in the HT score is a HUGE factor. That is if I am understanding the fact that a 3 point variance equals 15% performance. If the Castle performs roughly 45% better for HT, I would say thats worth quite a bit. I was unable to find room for a Conquest or Tower due to the 31" depth.

Maybe Craig could give some of us Joes a synopsis of the differences between the two, as I know a lot of people are curious.

It's just a gauge but value depends on what your talking about. If he score 15% for 3 points that means the Castle scores 45% better in HT and 20% better in music. To some it's worth $500. Is you have a large room you probably need the extra spl. I belive thats where the HT score will play = louder. I think ppl get hang ups on scores if there sub isn't at the top anymore or the talk???
Guess I type to slow post ^ beat me

Wow...castle did surprisingly well! Compared to the Conquest standing tall (which was 60-50 if I remember correctly) then that means the castle only scored one below on HT, but is about $600 cheaper.

Dang...pretty crazy!

Well ED has higher end subs than a5-350 for under $1500..Such as a7 - 450 and A7 - 600..
I think every single ED and Epik sub should be on that list!

Hi guys ... Good conversation about the various subwoofers.

Yes, The Castle is an excellent product. It and the eD A7-350 bring up the idea of multiple subs, they are so good and so inexpensive.

The Castle is currently $500 more than the eD delivered (assuming $100 in shipping for the Castle)... Even with the price hike looming (hopefully not more than $100 delivered), we are looking a pretty large price differential.

Some thoughts ... Picture Dual Castles @ $2000 ($2200 w/shipping) ... or Dual A5-350's @ $1200 w/shipping.

It is a great time to be looking at a subwoofer purchase.

Please test the a7s-450 that I already ordered..
Who knows, if it does really bad it would not be too late to cancel it :D

eD will likely see some more of their products through here, but it appears they need to catch up with production before moving forward with that idea.

Next up wil be the Valor.

You guys should hear what a good sub like the Valor does with a good pair of bookshelf speakers in our basement theater. This room is all concrete walls with insulation and drywall ... perfect for the natural reinforcement of a sealed sub's roll off.

Anyone want to guess what Craig's numbers will be on the Valor? I'll guess 96 (46 HT & 50 music).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the Valor the first sealed sub in the mix?

Anyone want to guess what Craig's numbers will be on the Valor? I'll guess 96 (46 HT & 50 music).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the Valor the first sealed sub in the mix?

The Velo DD-18, Both Fathoms, The Maestro, and my DIY sub are all sealed subs.

The Velo DD-18, Both Fathoms, The Maestro, and my DIY sub are all sealed subs.
Thanks. I forgot about them because I've been looking at subs in the <$1000 range.

Anyone want to guess what Craig's numbers will be on the Valor? I'll guess 96 (46 HT & 50 music).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the Valor the first sealed sub in the mix?


My guess/hope is for 48 HT 48 music, then I'm sold for sure!

I have been leaning towards the A5-350, but the size/look are slight concerns, not to mention that I probably wont be able to order till January (which i will have to see how the price increase goes). So we shall see.

Sometimes, we find a subwoofer which does more than it should, according to all of the spec sheets and speculation.

When Talking to Chad about which subs to test, he kept coming back to the Castle as his "perfect storm" (my words, not his) subwoofer.

While he would not say it outright, it was pretty obvious that, if I were to only test one sub from Epik, the Castle would be the clear choice.

After testing the Conquest, I mentioned thinking it was capable of delivering more, with a more powerful amplifier.

I have no idea how powerful the amp is in the Castle, but the combo of amp, box size, tuning and the fantastic 15 inch driver have made for a tremendous product at a price which is astonishing.

Here are some graphs ...

Tuning point:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/castletuning.jpg

SPL on WOTW. This is using the same locations as the other subs. Remember, this is not a single sine wave sweep - it is a different type of torture test. Without knowing which sub was in the system, most of the panel could not tell the difference between the Conquest and the Castle on this scene.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/castlewotw.jpg

After several day's worth of evaluation, the Castle scores as follows:

Home Theater: 59 points
Music: 50 points

Total score: 109 points.

excellent result for the castle! very nicely done Craig.

interesting to see the wotw torture test between it and the $400 more expensive pb13:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/UltraWOTW.jpg

which brings the question, does the larger enclosure and lower tuning of the tower give it even more of an attractive killer ($1099 + shipping)? I surely would.

good stuff craig. Hopefully you will keep the castle and conquest until spring before selling them so you can run some GP measurements on them. :)

For those of us interested in the bigger high performance subs it is now the A7-450 that looms large on the horizon. Where will it fit in? How will it compare to the Conquest and Castle since at this time it is priced between the two? Sounds like we may have to wait awhile to find from Craig. Price goes up in January. What to do? :confused: What to do?

Perhaps watch a movie.;)

Sherv ... With a tuning point of 18 Hz for the Castle, I am not so sure the Tower would have performed any better than the Castle. We would lose output in the upper teens to get more in the mid teens ... it is likely more room dependent than anything else.

This may sound strange to those reading it, but the Tower is likely a better performer in a smaller room, with its lower tuning, while the Castle's emphasis on high output above 16 Hz will work better in a larger room.

The Ultra's graph was taken @ 2 meters, and will be somewhat lower at the current 15 feet.

I am pretty sure both will still be here in the Spring for a GP session, too.

For those of us interested in the bigger high performance subs it is now the A7-450 that looms large on the horizon. Where will it fit in? How will it compare to the Conquest and Castle since at this time it is priced between the two? Sounds like we may have to wait awhile to find from Craig. Price goes up in January. What to do? :confused: What to do?

Perhaps watch a movie.;)

PS

And what Sherv said about the Tower too. Add that complication also.

Does any one company between ED, Epik, ans SVS have an advantage in driver design? I am just curious as to why the Castle and the A5-350 vary so much in performance with approximately the same specs.

After talking to Chad at Epik about 30 minutes ago, I decided to pull the trigger on the Valor. I had been wavering between the Valor and the HSU VTS 3. I'm sure either choice would be excellent, but my preference is a sealed sub since I'm not a bass head who's trying to shake the foundation loose in my house. But I hesitated to go with the Valor because nobody other than Craig, seems to have received one yet.

Based upon my conversation with Chad, and reading a Craig's brief comments regarding the Valor, I get the impression that this is a very musical sub but will still do well in HT, which is exactly what I'm looking for. And Chad informed me that they are not back ordered right now and that the Valor would ship in 3-5 business days. He also said that the Valor weights around 80lbs (shipping weight). With shipping, the Valor cost $605 vs. $730 for the HSU. That was probably the factor that pushed me towards the Valor even more than sealed vs. ported.

So after researching for a couple months, I finally decided to pull the trigger. Hopefully it will be here before Christmas :)

I'll let you guys know how it sounds once I get it, but keep in mind that I will be comparing it to my current sub, which is an inexpensive Velodyne VRP-1000. I'm sure that the Valor will be significantly better! I'll post my thoughts on the Epik forum.

Does any one company between ED, Epik, ans SVS have an advantage in driver design? I am just curious as to why the Castle and the A5-350 vary so much in performance with approximately the same specs.

SVS does not quote specs on its drivers.

Epik lists the Castle's driver as moving "close to 3 inches, peak to peak", which is about 75 MM.

Assuming this is correct, it probably has an Xmax of about 30 MM.

Epik also says the Castle's driver is about twice as "potent" as the Knight's.

This would give the Caliber about a 15 MM Xmax ... which is pretty close to the eD A5-350's spec.

My "guess" is the Knight and the A5-350 would be pretty close.

And as a disclaimer, all the above is based on my memory. I have the Steelers-Patriots game rolling, and am NOT looking all this up ... :D

My guess on the Epik Valor score is 49 HT 51 Music for an even 100 score. Seeing how well the castle just scored, an even 100 wouldn't surprise me for the Valor. If it does score around 100, I may just ad that to my list of future sub alternatives.

However, my SVS PB10-NSD continues to wow me when ever I crank up the volume with a good bass heavy DVD or CD which keeps me satisfied for the meantime and often turns me away from continuing to read this thread since I really don't need more bass anyways. Besides, if my wife is watching with me, I don't even get to run the volume loud enough to kick in the limiter of the PB10:rolleyes: (about 60 on my Onkyo TX-SR603, 70+ is where my volume preference is when she's not around)

This would give the Caliber about a 15 MM Xmax ... which is pretty close to the eD A5-350's spec.

My "guess" is the Knight and the A5-350 would be pretty close.

I've order an Epik Knight and an eD A5-350. Both should be here by Christmas and I plan on doing measurements and reviews of both subwoofers. :) Well see if your guestimations are correct.

I've order an Epik Knight and an eD A5-350. Both should be here by Christmas and I plan on doing measurements and reviews of both subwoofers. :) Well see if your guestimations are correct.

I do hope you are entering this as a genuine attempt to provide unbiased information to people considering both subwoofers.

From what you typed here, it appears you are more interested in proving a point.

Why on earth do you have another TWO "lesser" subs on order after you raved on your Tower?

I too have the Tower, which I'm thrilled with (look at the few posts i've logged).........and yes........I was also curious on how other subs would be received by Craig (especially after the initial score of Conquest, as compared to PB13); but based on what we've seen (graphs) and heard (second hand subjective comments) why would you go there (lesser models)?

Craig does a marvelous job providing those that don't have the resources an "idea" of what's out there cutting edge AND existing.....why the need to verify? Especially if you already have a sub you are happy with.

We both took a reasonable chance ordering early (considering the source; i.e. Chad) and we both are benefiting from that judgement!

I was suprised at how the Conquest was received.......but not upset. Seeing how the
Castle is being viewed, should give you a reasonable reference point to what you have! No need to argue/debate physics.

My ONLY gripe is.........Why can't I add ONE More Epik (lesser/same/or better) and NOT GET EXPONENTIAL dBs whilst retaining suberb SQ that I'm experienceing?

PHYSICS sucks.

P.S.

CHAD.......You ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry for all the .....(((((((........)))))))).......,,,,,,,((((((;;;;;;;;;

infrasonics make me scatterbrained!

I do hope you are entering this as a genuine attempt to provide unbiased information to people considering both subwoofers.

I considered buying both subwoofers and couldn't find any comparisons between the two. So, I decided to get them both in the same room and in front of the same measurement equipment. I'm genuinely interested in knowing how they compare and plan to report back on my findings. I don't know how to be more unbiased than that.

From what you typed here, it appears you are more interested in proving a point.

I don't see how your "guess" is going to effect any of the measurements I plan to take. The microphone doesn't care about this thread and what I look for in a subwoofer is probably a little different than what you are looking for. IIRC, I don't think you've tested a Knight and I certainly won't hold anybody to what they've said about a subwoofer they've never heard.

BTW......I don't care if my sub is biggest/baddest/whatevahhhhhhhhh. But i thought i'd share some more numbers since my initial reports. I was happy (and cautious) when reporting 14 to 80hz relatively flat @ 104dB. Never really pushed my Tower till this weekend.

Downloaded one of Speezy's demos (LFE21) and proceeded to torture my tower for a good 2 hours straight!

Not bragging nor complaining......just a FYI:

I shut her down 3 times in the two hours, but I was constantly pushing 110 to 115 dBs (in room, listening position @ roughly 15 ft) at some pretty close together peaks. She didn't have much time to catch her breath between scenes that Speezy set up on his demo.

No issues until second consecutive run through..............and get this!!!!!!!!!!!!

The first piece that shut her down was the strip joint scene in Running Scared! Not the lowest stuff around, but FREAKIN constant. Funny shizzit. I've been to some LOUD clubs in LV and never ran into it like that! No issue with WOTW, 2 times through BTB?

Great Protection/Failsafe (whatever you did CHAD). I think she's pretty much indestructible. Not even curious at this point with what happens beneath 12 Hz (I don't get anything worth measuring with my placement/setup). Shizzalllllllllllll.........the muzic i'm groovin with, I can't pop 106 with my current settings (sub 2db hot at about 1pm).

I'm FULLY satisfied for now. Got a new pre/pro comin for Xmas, so if I can push my speaks to keep up with the Tower, I might try to push the sub harder.......and if all else fails..........stack another EPIK for a "measily" nutha 6dB or so!

Peace all......and try to enjoy more............... and less speculating/arguing/justifying.

Why on earth do you have another TWO "lesser" subs on order after you raved on your Tower?

Because I have more than one audio system and not all of them have the same budget. These subwoofers aren't replacements for the Tower. One of them will end up being a gift to my father in-law who is now using a RCA subwoofer.

I really hope we don't need to start explaining why some of us have more than one subwoofer. :) I already need to do that with the wife. Can't we as subwoofer enthusiasts be OK with more than one subwoofer. I've got a PB10-NSD, PB12-Ultra, 4 DIY subwoofers, and a few others around here too so the Tower wasn't ever alone. ;)

Craig does a marvelous job providing those that don't have the resources an "idea" of what's out there cutting edge AND existing.....why the need to verify?

I agree that Craig does a marvelous job. His input is invaluable. I'm not trying to verify anything Craig has done. Craig's findings stand alone in that they are internally consistent. I don't expect anything I do to be directly comparable. I would have no idea how to put one of his numbers on my findings.

That said, Craig has not compared the Knight to the A5-350. Even if he did, I'm interested in knowing for myself how they compare in my room with my equipment and I'm interested in knowing how well they GP. Maybe I don't need a Tower and can get away with a $600 subwoofer and still be happy. I won't know that until they are here.

I really hope we don't need to start explaining why some of us have more than one subwoofer.[[/

Cool. Didn't mean to question how many subs you have (I want more too!!!). Just confused on why you'd order lower powered models after experiencing what you have.

I]I]"I'm interested in knowing how well they GP."

Doubt it if your dad will care and regardless of the good weather here (South Pacific).....I have no interest in how my sub will sound out in the middle of an open field. Sorry to be such an azzzz, just feeling my oats after finishing the better part of a bottle of Henessy and wrapping up 1st place in my Fantasy Football league (500 clams for first...which should subsidize part of my new Pre/Pro)!!!

happy holidays and enjoy

Brian ... Your entire post had, for its objectives, this:


Well see if your guestimations are correct.

You did not name one other reason for the purpose of the test.

Please, when you get both subs, start a thread detailing your work and findings. Many will be following with interest. :)

I think the valor will score 45 for movies and 46 for music.
Craig, this may sound like a stupid question, but you said the Castle's driver can move close to 3 inches peak to peak and has an Xmax of about 30mm. If that's true, how come the JL F113's driver can move 4 inches with "only" 32mm Xmax?

I think the valor will score 45 for movies and 46 for music.
Craig, this may sound like a stupid question, but you said the Castle's driver can move close to 3 inches peak to peak and has an Xmax of about 30mm. If that's true, how come the JL F113's driver can move 4 inches with "only" 32mm Xmax?

Chengbin, if you are looking at the specs of a W7 driver, keep in mind the f113 driver is modified from the W7 and is not identical. I believe the f113 Xmax is more than the W7.

SVS does not quote specs on its drivers.

Epik lists the Castle's driver as moving "close to 3 inches, peak to peak", which is about 75 MM.

Assuming this is correct, it probably has an Xmax of about 30 MM.

Epik also says the Castle's driver is about twice as "potent" as the Knight's.

This would give the Caliber about a 15 MM Xmax ... which is pretty close to the eD A5-350's spec.

My "guess" is the Knight and the A5-350 would be pretty close.

And as a disclaimer, all the above is based on my memory. I have the Steelers-Patriots game rolling, and am NOT looking all this up ... :D
pretty good guess.

The Castle/Tower driver is a 45lb monster, with a 31mm Xmax, and ridiculous Xmech. I believe Chad meant "twice as Potent" as in this bigger 15" driver can handle twice the power (and of course, has more air displacement). The Knight driver is about 20-22mm Xmax.

The Conquest is a beast of its own I must say....70+lb's, triple magnet stack with a diameter of over 9 inches! Xmax is in the mid to high 30's mm, and has a very high power rating. The pictures look like a gotham JLW7's motor to basket ratio.......think of it as a W7 on a LMS5400 dress

Brian ... Your entire post had, for its objectives, this:

You did not name one other reason for the purpose of the test.

Please, when you get both subs, start a thread detailing your work and findings. Many will be following with interest. :)

Two weeks ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12335084&postcount=570), I already had both orders placed. Your post yesterday wasn't the driving force behind either decision. You made a 'guess' concerning the subwoofers I'll be comparing. It isn't more complicated than that.

Does any one company between ED, Epik, ans SVS have an advantage in driver design? I am just curious as to why the Castle and the A5-350 vary so much in performance with approximately the same specs.

It is HSU I think. By using basic materials the Dr. achieves what noone can with flashy parts and glowing baskets, evidence for this is the 3.3 and HO driver with no more than 2 inches peak to peak excursion and 350wrms, and 500rms in a relatively small enclosure using only a 12"!!!

Two weeks ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12335084&postcount=570), I already had both orders placed. Your post yesterday wasn't the driving force behind either decision. You made a 'guess' concerning the subwoofers I'll be comparing. It isn't more complicated than that.

I was asked to give an estimate between the subs, Brian. That is what I did.

Then you decided to comment about my "guess".

I never said I was the driving force behind your decision to order the 2 subs. All I did was to comment on your post. You are the person who brought up that you were going to "see if my guestimation was correct". You gave no other reasons, in the post HERE, about this matter.

Thanks for providing the link to the other thread.

Again, if you are engaging in an unbiased test between the two subwoofers, and have no other intentions, that is great. I will look forward to reading the results.

It really isn't any more complicated than that. ;)

I don't see why there should be just one person contributing with objective opinions on subwoofers? The more the merrier if you ask me : ) I enjoy reading every comparison and GTG report, so thanks to everyone writing them.

I for one wish that Craig would review fewer subs and go more into detail about the ones he do review. The way it is now the only thing we have is a score broken up into to two numbers. The GP measurement sessions that were blamed as being a part of "the numbers game" consists of multiple datasets where one self can choose what aspects are important. With Craigs tests we have only two numbers, and to my disbelief I can see that some people are actually making decisions based more or less purely on Craigs findings. I would like to see more detail, but being an ENTP (for the Jungians out there) I understand only all too well how tedious and boring details can be : )

That’s enough of me being grumpy for one day : ) I’ve been too busy to post here in a long time, but one question I’ve wanted to ask: Why is the movie score for the PB10 and PB12-NSD the same? I’ve heard them both and to my ears the PB12 is significantly better.

I don't see why there should be just one person contributing with objective opinions on subwoofers? The more the merrier if you ask me : ) I enjoy reading every comparison and GTG report, so thanks to everyone writing them.

I for one wish that Craig would review fewer subs and go more into detail about the ones he do review. The way it is now the only thing we have is a score broken up into to two numbers. The GP measurement sessions that were blamed as being a part of "the numbers game" consists of multiple datasets where one self can choose what aspects are important. With Craigs tests we have only two numbers, and to my disbelief I can see that some people are actually making decisions based more or less purely on Craigs findings. I would like to see more detail, but being an ENTP (for the Jungians out there) I understand only all too well how tedious and boring details can be : )

That’s enough of me being grumpy for one day : ) I’ve been too busy to post here in a long time, but one question I’ve wanted to ask: Why is the movie score for the PB10 and PB12-NSD the same? I’ve heard them both and to my ears the PB12 is significantly better.

Responses:

1. I guess the concept of "summary" is lost on you. There is a lot of detail given, and GP graphs posted (as weather permits), with a summary of each sub put into an easy to find spot.

2. I have repeatedly said that this is supposed to help people to narrow down a subwoofer purchase .. not to make the decision for him/her.

3. I have a very early PB12-NSD. The newer ones, according to Ed, are much better performers.

4. We now have one person who wishes I tested out FEWER subs. Check that, we now have TWO people. My wife agrees, but for different reasons. :rolleyes:

5. I encourage people to run as many tests as possible, as long as there is no agenda behind the tests to prove anything. The whole purpose should be to assist others in finding products which works well in his/her system.

Quite frankly, this is a lot of work, and it is rather expensive.

Oh no, not f e w e r, thats blasphemy

... the Dr. achieves what noone can ...I'm sorry, but every time I read something like that about Hsu, it lessens my impression of Hsu. I've not met the man myself, yet I do trust that he a very nice person and an exceptional engineer. Physics though is still physics, and anything inexplicably special or only from the mind of the good Dr., etc, just comes off as a Wizard of Oz type snake oil pitch.

And that is unfortunate since Hsu certainly has very, very capable products.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.


Tim

Relax Craig, noone is out to get you. I just think that for someone who a year ago was up in arms about "the numbers game" it's a bit ironic that his list consists of only two numbers.


The thing is that all that is getting any kind of attention are those two numbers, and most seems to know very little about you procedures. For example that most subs woth multiple tuning options are tested and scored only in their native tune. The Plus/2 with two ports plugged and the HP filter bypassed is in my ears a better sub for music than the PB12-NSD.

Ilkkas latest test did show that the PB12-NSD has been somewhat improved, but the difference between the "old" and "new" version is still less than the difference between the PB10 and the "old" PB12.

I do understand that what you do takes a lot of effort, and I'm amazed that you're willing to put so much time and money into it. But for just the same reason I wish that the results could be presented with more detail, and not at least with more order. The graphs and your comments are neigh on impossible to find in a thread 157 pages long and growing. And me complaining and thereby making it even longer doesn't help ; )

Relax Craig, noone is out to get you. I just think that for someone who a year ago was up in arms about "the numbers game" it's a bit ironic that his list consists of only two numbers.


The thing is that all that is getting any kind of attention are those two numbers, and most seems to know very little about you procedures. For example that most subs woth multiple tuning options are tested and scored only in their native tune. The Plus/2 with two ports plugged and the HP filter bypassed is in my ears a better sub for music than the PB12-NSD.

Ilkkas latest test did show that the PB12-NSD has been somewhat improved, but the difference between the "old" and "new" version is still less than the difference between the PB10 and the "old" PB12.

I do understand that what you do takes a lot of effort, and I'm amazed that you're willing to put so much time and money into it. But for just the same reason I wish that the results could be presented with more detail, and not at least with more order. The graphs and your comments are neigh on impossible to find in a thread 157 pages long and growing. And me complaining and thereby making it even longer doesn't help ; )

Look ... Would you please just stop ? I get so tired of comments like "Relax Craig, noone is out to get you" and "up in arms about them numbers game".

Your entire posting here is completely removed from reality.

For a reality check, I never said anyone was out to get me, nor was I ever up in arms about a numbers game.

Now, let's look at you:

You actually complain about the summary page for being too short, then complain about the thread being impossibly long. I could go on, but that alone makes the point. Putting both into the same post is incredible. :rolleyes:

Well look at me, I do not quote your blabber as to keep the thread as short as possible ; ) And as I myself pointed out in my last post, I DO see the irony. A concept that seems tp be hard to grasp for you when you're on the receiving end.

From your responses I can tell that I'm hitting a nerve. As for organizing your results you don't need to look any further than Illka or Avtalks way of presenting their results. All it would take is that you got a subforum.

Or you could start a thread where the first post contained links to the post regarding each and every sub. Both solutions would take far less time than the hours you put into testing the subs.

Imagine if Illka and Avtalk didn't present their methodology and had all their results scattered over 157 pages. Or even worse, that they spent hours on measuring the subs and could only be bothered to say that sub X scored XX for movies and YY for music.

I'm guesstimating a score of 94-95 for the Valor.
46HT/48-49M

Imagine if Illka and Avtalk didn't present their methodology and had all their results scattered over 157 pages. Or even worse, that they spent hours on measuring the subs and could only be bothered to say that sub X scored XX for movies and YY for music.


Ahh, yes that would signal the end of the world :rolleyes:
How lazy are we getting as a people?:(

I'm having a really hard time trying to decide here. At this point I've read almost every post in this thread (all over the last week) and it's left me very confused as to what I want or need.

I have a room that is just under 3000 cu.ft. with the theater/listening area in the front half of the room. I'm a beginner with subwoofers, as you would be able to tell from my current Infinity IL120. Obviously I know any of these is going to be a big upgrade, but I'm looking for a lot of bang (bang being quality) for my buck that I can hang on to for a few years (few being 5 or so).

At this point I'm considering the VTF-2.3 or 3.3 (w/o Turbo), the A5-350, the A7s-450, the PB12-NSD and the as of yet untested Valor, Knight and Caliber. Each of these has a different appeal, as my selection process weighs some unknown combination of price, size, appearance (I wish there were more pictures of them all) and above all, sound quality (thanks for this very informative thread) for 90% movies and hd tv/sports.

Obviously if I was to strictly go by Craig's ratings, the A5-350 is a no brainer. But I haven't been able to see much of what the sub looks like, and it sounds like it's pretty bad from some posts around here. The one picture I saw of the A7s-450 in the built-in looked pretty good, but it was just one. The VTF-2.3 is the cheapest, but not by much when shipping is factored in. I'd like to stay under $750, but the A7s-450 is appealing because I think I might prefer the sound quality of a sealed sub ... which brings in the cheaper Valor, but then again I'm unsure.

Clearly there's been a lot of discussion on all of these already, but I was just hoping for a little more direct guidance. Any takers? My equipment is listed below.

Pioneer Elite Pro-HD530
Toshiba HD-XA2
Directv HR20
Primare SP-31
B&K Reference 7250
Front - Infinity IL40
Center - Infinity CC3
Rear - Infinity IL10

The upgrade of the speakers will occur next year, first comes the sub.

ManicMiner,

Many people appreciate what Craig does, including myself. Even if it's not up to your standards, with ton's of charts and measurements, it doesn't matter. It's very difficult purchasing something like a speaker online without unbiased information to go off of. Craig provides good information that enables people like myself to be able to make better decisions. If it wasn't for Craig, I wouldn't have known about the Epik sub that I just purchased, nor the Salk SongTowers that I hope to purchase in the near future.

Thanks for the time and effort you put in Craig!

Pez,

I went with the Valor because I wanted a sealed sub. My close second choice was the HSU 3.3 w/out turbo. I ruled out any eD because I didn't like the look of them.

It comes down to what features are most important to you. Since you mentioned 8 subs in your post, I suggest comparing just two subs to one another and eliminating one. Then compare the winner of the first comparison to the next sub you are considering. Do this until you've narrowed it down to the one you really want.

I'll try to post some pictures of the Valor when I receive it. It should be here next week (hopefully).

ManicMiner,

Many people appreciate what Craig does, including myself. Even if it's not up to your standards, with ton's of charts and measurements, it doesn't matter. It's very difficult purchasing something like a speaker online without unbiased information to go off of. Craig provides good information that enables people like myself to be able to make better decisions. If it wasn't for Craig, I wouldn't have known about the Epik sub that I just purchased, nor the Salk SongTowers that I hope to purchase in the near future.

Thanks for the time and effort you put in Craig!

Couldn't have said it better. Thanks Craig!

ManicMiner,

Many people appreciate what Craig does, including myself. Even if it's not up to your standards, with ton's of charts and measurements, it doesn't matter. It's very difficult purchasing something like a speaker online without unbiased information to go off of. Craig provides good information that enables people like myself to be able to make better decisions. If it wasn't for Craig, I wouldn't have known about the Epik sub that I just purchased, nor the Salk SongTowers that I hope to purchase in the near future.

Thanks for the time and effort you put in Craig!

Bump x10!

ManicMiner: Craig is a very busy guy. This is not his job but despite that he does a fantastic analysis out of his own time and money. Reading this is also part of the fun. Relax dude, if you don't like it go read something else.

You've some good performers in your list Pez, according to both Craig's reviews and other owners.

There is only 1 A7S-450 in the wild currently, with mine to be received inside a week as the 2nd (that I know of).

The SVS products are solid performers, and the Epiks are also superb. From what I've read and opinions of owners here on the forums, the 3.3 w/o HO would be a better buy and provide for upgrade options in the future. The eD's perform well beyond their price, but they lack... shall we say, visual appeal :) However, the 2 you've listed are both about 24" cubed, so you should be able to minimize the look somewhat. The A7S is front firing, the A5 is downfiring if that matters. It does affect performance a bit, but it is just another variable such as room placement, listening position in room, room treatments, flooring, etc...

Michael


HSU 3.3 (w/o Turbo) $629 + $100
eD A5-350 $600
eD A7s-450 $785 (I would recommend the 1300w amp, sealed needs more guts)
PB12-NSD $600 + ?100? shipping (location dependent)
Valor $549 + ?100? shipping (location dependent)
Knight $599 + ?100? shipping (location dependent)
Caliber $699 + shipping (location dependent)

Wouldn't it be true if I said ,based on the list, ED and Epik perform a lot better than SVS and HSU models of the same price level? With the exception of the pb13 ultra. Other brands don't even come close.
Oh and I'm amazed at how many people worry about looks and size..Personally I would buy a sub that looks like a 3 meter tall toilet bowl, as long as the sound/price ratio was top notch.

Oh and I'm amazed at how many people worry about looks and size..Personally I would buy a sub that looks like a 3 meter tall toilet bowl, as long as the sound/price ratio was top notch.

Why is it so amazing that some folks (including me) are concerned with looks? Many of us use our subs in nicely furnished multipurpose entertainment rooms, not dark dedicated home theaters. Physics dictates that is is far easier to get great bass out of a large sub. Large subs cannot easily be concealed so if they are going to be out in the open in an attractive room used to entertain guests, it doesn't hurt if they look attractive.

As appealing from a performance standpoint and value are the big subs from eD and Epik, they realistically will not find a way into my room because of their strictly utilitarian appearance. Nevertheless I applaud the effort of their makers in advancing the state of affordable commercial sub performance.

What about subs make them "attractive furniture" or not? While I agree eD subs are not, the only difference between them and most is a wood grain look. They are still just big boxes.
So where is the WAF line, typically, and what defines it?

Personally, I found the PB13 is a perfect size, shape and height to serve as and end table once a piece of glass was cut to place on the top. A sub like the Fathom can be incorporated into a nice room because, at a cost, it is reasonably compact and very nicely finished and detailed.

Oh and I'm amazed at how many people worry about looks and size..Personally I would buy a sub that looks like a 3 meter tall toilet bowl, as long as the sound/price ratio was top notch.

That would be a conversation piece. Down firing no doubt. I want one. Are you listening Chad? Chris?

Seriously, thats why they make Corvettes and Accords. Each is going to make somebody happy. I drive a 3/4 ton, four wheel drive, crew cab pick-up. It makes sense to me but a Vette can still turn my head.

CNC'ing a toilet would be tricky :)

Can anyone tell me where they think an SVS 20-39PCi would fall on this scoring system...best guesstimate?

Personally I would buy a sub that looks like a 3 meter tall toilet bowl, as long as the sound/price ratio was top notch.

Not married I take it? Either that or you have a dedicated HT and not an HT that "doubles" as a family room as in my case!!

Can anyone tell me where they think an SVS 20-39PCi would fall on this scoring system...best guesstimate?

And while you're at it, the 20-39PC+

I'm sorry, but every time I read something like that about Hsu, it lessens my impression of Hsu. I've not met the man myself, yet I do trust that he a very nice person and an exceptional engineer. Physics though is still physics, and anything inexplicably special or only from the mind of the good Dr., etc, just comes off as a Wizard of Oz type snake oil pitch.

And that is unfortunate since Hsu certainly has very, very capable products.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.


Tim

Sorry, i didnt know that your physics knowledge was that good.Obviously any company is able to deliver with 350wrms and a 12" a better $629 subwoofer than has the size of the HSU's.
Im not saying that he is Mr.Wizard, just saying that in subwoofer design he is to me, he is the one with the most physics knowledge...
When do you plan on making your own company?...I want one of course...
Also, i didnt know that in here we had a grammar professor...

CNC'ing a toilet would be tricky :)

gah! you've just flushed all my hopes and dreams right down the.....

no...i'm not going to finish that one

:)

I’ve been too busy to post here in a long time... Ah Peace ! It's (was:() wonderful. :p

Bump x10!

ManicMiner: Craig is a very busy guy. This is not his job but despite that he does a fantastic analysis out of his own time and money. Reading this is also part of the fun. Relax dude, if you don't like it go read something else.

And I too have stated that.

Just as the subwoofer manufacturers open themselves up for criticism when they put a product out on the market, so does anyone who shares their criticism of said product in an open forum. Even I fall under that rule when I criticize the critic, so the criticizer of the critic becomes criticized himself :)

Some are fine with, while others…….:rolleyes:

Can anyone tell me where they think an SVS 20-39PCi would fall on this scoring system...best guesstimate?
Probably very close to the PB12-NSD box version.

And I too have stated that.

Just as the subwoofer manufacturers open themselves up for criticism when they put a product out on the market, so does anyone who shares their criticism of said product in an open forum. Even I fall under that rule when I criticize the critic, so the criticizer of the critic becomes criticized himself :)

Some are fine with, while others…….:rolleyes:

It is not the criticism, it is your inherent inability to show consistency and honesty in what you call criticism.

If you wish to discuss this further use the PM function.

CNC'ing a toilet would be tricky :)

An inherent part of the design would be a flush-mounted driver and amp. :p

I for one appreciate all the work and research craig has done. Think about it, if craig didn't dedicate his spare time to testing, what would people be buying, sony subs?:p:eek::D

Probably very close to the PB12-NSD box version.

ggunnell.....thank you. Taking into acount a few years of service and wear, maybe 5%-10% lower in performance than a new 12-NSD. Helps with overall picture for me.

And I too have stated that.

Just as the subwoofer manufacturers open themselves up for criticism when they put a product out on the market, so does anyone who shares their criticism of said product in an open forum. Even I fall under that rule when I criticize the critic, so the criticizer of the critic becomes criticized himself :)

Some are fine with, while others…….:rolleyes: If you have actually read this thread, you then must understand that the vast majority of the participants appreciate Craig's efforts. While Craig may have his own reasons for investing so much time and money in this effort, the fact that he shares what he's learned with us is a generous and praiseworthy gift.

Craig has made his methods and reasoning as clear as he can. He has also made it clear that these are his opinions (based on a lot of experience), and he presents them only in an effort to help narrow our choices for us. We are all adults here. We are fully capable of deciding for ourselves just how much credence to lend to Craig's opinions when making a purchasing decision. It is not necessary for a caped crusader to ride in on a white horse and save us.

If your criticism were meant to be constructive, helpful, or informational, that criticism would be most welcome. But those of us who have been around here long enough, and are familiar with your past, are fully aware that your criticism, no matter how much you try to disguise it, is personal not professional. You are here simply to grind a year-old axe, and that simple fact is worthy of criticism. :mad:

(Sorry Craig. I know I shouldn't have indulged myself, but I just felt it needed to be said. Apologies to all.)

Can we update the first post to reflect all the subs that have be tested and rated?

Bgilly, I think only the original poster can do that, and Craig isn't the original poster. However, Craig has a link in his signature ("link to subwoofer summary as suggested by TWO esteemed forum members") which appears in each of his posts, that will take you to his post in this thread where he updates his findings. Hope that helps.

Craig, I'm doubting the validity of your results. Do you think you could pay for a trip down to your place so I could observe your testing? :p

Thought I'd post this question early. I'm sure someone will ask something as ridiculous sooner rather then later. Personally I'm getting sick of all the tireless requests and defamation. :rolleyes:

Personally I'd rather sit back and lurk, but enough is enough!

For those that haven't figured it out. This thread is an opinion piece. It isn't the end all subwoofer thread and certainly not a technical paper on subwoofers. Craig owes us nothing and isn't paid to do this. It is a hobby and some people NEED to realize it.

What makes this thread useful and interesting is that it is a subjective opinion based on a reasonable review process headed by one person. 8 people reviewing 8 difference products isn't helpful. There is no basis for reference

I used to enjoy this thread. The last 50 pages or so have been mostly pissing matches and complaints on methodology.

My suggestion for this thread is simple. Live with the methodology, let Craig post his results and impressions, and have the user base post questions about the subwoofer differences. If you want to see a certain type of graph or data, request it politely, and don't be surprised or outraged if the answer is I don't have that available. It is a reasonable response when you aren't paid for information. Time isn't free... Or atleast mine isn't and I assume Craig isn't that different then you or I.

Sorry for the rant, but something needed to be said!

If you have actually read this thread, you then must understand that the vast majority of the participants appreciate Craig's efforts. While Craig may have his own reasons for investing so much time and money in this effort, the fact that he shares what he's learned with us is a generous and praiseworthy gift.

Craig has made his methods and reasoning as clear as he can. He has also made it clear that these are his opinions (based on a lot of experience), and he presents them only in an effort to help narrow our choices for us. We are all adults here. We are fully capable of deciding for ourselves just how much credence to lend to Craig's opinions when making a purchasing decision. It is not necessary for a caped crusader to ride in on a white horse and save us.

If your criticism were meant to be constructive, helpful, or informational, that criticism would be most welcome. But those of us who have been around here long enough, and are familiar with your past, are fully aware that your criticism, no matter how much you try to disguise it, is personal not professional. You are here simply to grind a year-old axe, and that simple fact is worthy of criticism. :mad:

(Sorry Craig. I know I shouldn't have indulged myself, but I just felt it needed to be said. Apologies to all.)


If I had a personality like Craigs I this post would have made me go ballistic, I would have questioned your honesty and made statements like "concept X is lost on you".

I don't hold a grudge and I don't have an axe to grind, but this forum has gone the way I predicted a couple of years ago The S for science in AVS now stands for subjective, and it isn't as interesting to follow as it used to be. But that is an whole other debate

I only wanted to give some advice how Craigs work with a minimum of effort could be better put to use. Nothing too revolutionary, just some small improvements. I know that too much information can be confusing, but I think that most of this forums users could handle more than two numbers. But if most people are happy with things the way they are there is no reason to change anything.

There are some inconsistencies in some of the results, but if no one is interested in looking into the reasons behind this, why bother.

I really have nothing more to say, so please feel free to continue :)

Craig, I'm doubting the validity of your results. Do you think you could pay for a trip down to your place so I could observe your testing? :p

Thought I'd post this question early. I'm sure someone will ask something as ridiculous sooner rather then later. Personally I'm getting sick of all the tireless requests and defamation. :rolleyes:

Personally I'd rather sit back and lurk, but enough is enough!

For those that haven't figured it out. This thread is an opinion piece. It isn't the end all subwoofer thread and certainly not a technical paper on subwoofers. Craig owes us nothing and isn't paid to do this. It is a hobby and some people NEED to realize it.

What makes this thread useful and interesting is that it is a subjective opinion based on a reasonable review process headed by one person. 8 people reviewing 8 difference products isn't helpful. There is no basis for reference

I used to enjoy this thread. The last 50 pages or so have been mostly pissing matches and complaints on methodology.

My suggestion for this thread is simple. Live with the methodology, let Craig post his results and impressions, and have the user base post questions about the subwoofer differences. If you want to see a certain type of graph or data, request it politely, and don't be surprised or outraged if the answer is I don't have that available. It is a reasonable response when you aren't paid for information. Time isn't free... Or atleast mine isn't and I assume Craig isn't that different then you or I.

Sorry for the rant, but something needed to be said!

Hello:

Well said.

I also think that many people lose sight of the fact that they are free to start their own thread with whatever they like. Just don't piss all over the thread that has Craig's name.

Splotto

Please, no more of this nonsense. Craig's effort in reviewing subs should be appreciated greatly, not criticized in any way. Let's not forget that Craig spent at least 50 grand doing all of the reviews for us plus the time spent. If you have a negative opinion (if there is any) about Craig's work, keep it to yourself or PM Craig and express your opinions with respect. Craig's work is superb and I can think of nothing he could do to improve. For people asking for GP results, stop. Put yourself in Craig's shoe. Would you do GP results just to satisfy a few "number freaks"? Absolutely not. The fact that Craig did some GP tests is already icing on the cake. I remember hauling my PB13 to my living room and setting it up, it is NOT something I would want to go through again. Let's stop this nonsense once and for all and let's focus on subwoofers. I'm sure none of us want this thread closed down or make Craig so mad that he stops reviewing subwoofers because of this. Remember people, it's a privilege that we get to access to this information. This privilege can be taken away anytime. Do not take this for granted. My computer crashed down yesterday and all of my files are gone just like that. I'm on my crap Pentium 4 computer right now and it's SLOW! I took my "new" computer granted and now I miss it very much. Now I have to spare another $2000 on a new computer this week.

Why is it so amazing that some folks (including me) are concerned with looks? Many of us use our subs in nicely furnished multipurpose entertainment rooms, not dark dedicated home theaters. Physics dictates that is is far easier to get great bass out of a large sub. Large subs cannot easily be concealed so if they are going to be out in the open in an attractive room used to entertain guests, it doesn't hurt if they look attractive.

As appealing from a performance standpoint and value are the big subs from eD and Epik, they realistically will not find a way into my room because of their strictly utilitarian appearance. Nevertheless I applaud the effort of their makers in advancing the state of affordable commercial sub performance.

I agree. If you don't have a dedicated HT and have fine furniture and toilet bowl just doesn't look good :eek:

Some Thoughts for those who have been following the thread, in regards to what we do here.

1. Weather permitting, we take 2 Meter GP measurements at 3 or 4 different frequencies ... and we do it the old fashioned way. We increase SPL until the harmonics spike, then capture the graph. Our results have been pretty close to what Ilkka and AVTalk have posted.

2. For the subjective end, some of the guys that come here to do the listening have an amazing amount of experience. They are also smarter than I am, because they have seen the forums, and want to stay private.

Two are engineers, and have designs that are used in venues across the country. One of these engineers owns dual Paradigm Servo 15's in a 2400 cubic foot room, and has 30 years experience in Audio. He has designed and built subwoofer systems which can hit 124 dB at 16 meters, outdoors, at 40 Hz.

Two more are musicians.

There is a lot of experience behind the listening tests.

3. I try to avoid talk about finish, and size, when it comes to subs. To some, the eD subs are ugly, to others, they look great.

4. If what we do here annoys you, don't read it.

5. If someone wants to start another thread - like the mini shootout in Toronto recently, I say go for it.

6. I am REALLY tempted to call Manville, order a Gotham, and call it a day.

7. I was kidding in #6. :D

Craig, you seem to be very high on the Epik Castle. How do you think a pair of them would compare, in output for HT use, to a single A7-900? A single Conquest?

I would love to go for an A7-900, but it's size makes that just impossible. A pair of the "smaller" castles would be a great fit for me, so I'm hoping 2 of them would be pretty competitive with those beasts at the top of your list.

Thanks for any advice.

Craig, you seem to be very high on the Epik Castle. How do you think a pair of them would compare, in output for HT use, to a single A7-900? A single Conquest?

I would love to go for an A7-900, but it's size makes that just impossible. A pair of the "smaller" castles would be a great fit for me, so I'm hoping 2 of them would be pretty competitive with those beasts at the top of your list.

Thanks for any advice.

A pair of Castles would be VERY close to the A7-900, for sure. Either is going to be a killer set up.

Thanks a lot. I'm new around here...just beginning to catch this bass bug all of you suffer from. I really appreciate this list; it's giving me almost all of my ideas for improving my current system.

First of all, Thanks again to craig for all his effort, expense and knowledge in this fun and sometimes addictive hobby. The information is of great value in helping us who cannot afford to test every possible sub choice before buying.


forgive my ignorance, but i have a couple questions.

1. what is a GP measurement? I understand you drag these monsters outside to measure, but that's all i know so far. by measuring the sub outside, is that done to standardize the graph as it eliminates any room effect?

2. what is the value of such a measurement? how does it correlate to the sound quality of the sub?

3. i have ordered a pair of eD A7S-450's, so would personally appreciate a review when you get the chance!!

lastly, any update when you will review the MFW15? I basically got tired of waiting for these, so ordered the A7S's. Just curious.

just looking for honest recommendations on whether to go with 1 or 2 f113"s..
room size is 16x18, upstairs and above garage... there are no connecting rooms, and the room will be nicely soundproofed... im an avid movie watcher and music listner (some gaming)... i enjoy feeling my movies, but by no means do i want to go overboard, well, maybe a bit overboard when the guys are over!!!... if 1 will do the job VERY well, then i prefer to save the $$$... just hoping to get some opinions from the experienced!!!
thanks....

just looking for honest recommendations on whether to go with 1 or 2 f113"s..
room size is 16x18, upstairs and above garage... there are no connecting rooms, and the room will be nicely soundproofed... im an avid movie watcher and music listner (some gaming)... i enjoy feeling my movies, but by no means do i want to go overboard, well, maybe a bit overboard when the guys are over!!!... if 1 will do the job VERY well, then i prefer to save the $$$... just hoping to get some opinions from the experienced!!!
thanks....

Two f112s

and what would be the advantage of 2 f112's... vs. 1 f113? or 2 f113's?

i have to ask, maybe been asked earlier, but... would an upgrade to a castle from a a5-350 be worth the extra $. already have 2 a2-300s,would that combined with the a5-350 be equal to or better than the castle? im new to the subwoofer thing. i have a 4400cu.ft room. the a2-300s sound good, but i want more. can you blame me? any comments please!

just looking for honest recommendations on whether to go with 1 or 2 f113"s..
room size is 16x18, upstairs and above garage... there are no connecting rooms, and the room will be nicely soundproofed... im an avid movie watcher and music listner (some gaming)... i enjoy feeling my movies, but by no means do i want to go overboard, well, maybe a bit overboard when the guys are over!!!... if 1 will do the job VERY well, then i prefer to save the $$$... just hoping to get some opinions from the experienced!!!
thanks....

Two F-113's will be killer in that set up. If you have the $$$, go for it.

just looking for honest recommendations on whether to go with 1 or 2 f113"s..
room size is 16x18, upstairs and above garage... there are no connecting rooms, and the room will be nicely soundproofed... im an avid movie watcher and music listner (some gaming)... i enjoy feeling my movies, but by no means do i want to go overboard, well, maybe a bit overboard when the guys are over!!!... if 1 will do the job VERY well, then i prefer to save the $$$... just hoping to get some opinions from the experienced!!!
thanks....

I have two F113s in a dedicated room that is 14 x 24 with 8 foot ceilings and it is quite amazing. I think you can't go wrong with two F113s.

First of all, Thanks again to craig for all his effort, expense and knowledge in this fun and sometimes addictive hobby. The information is of great value in helping us who cannot afford to test every possible sub choice before buying.


forgive my ignorance, but i have a couple questions.

1. what is a GP measurement? I understand you drag these monsters outside to measure, but that's all i know so far. by measuring the sub outside, is that done to standardize the graph as it eliminates any room effect?

2. what is the value of such a measurement? how does it correlate to the sound quality of the sub?

3. i have ordered a pair of eD A7S-450's, so would personally appreciate a review when you get the chance!!

lastly, any update when you will review the MFW15? I basically got tired of waiting for these, so ordered the A7S's. Just curious.

1. A GP, or groundplane, measurement has other names (2 pi the most common) ... but the basics are this, you measure but placing the microphone on the ground, and the subwoofer on the ground, usually with 2 meters separating them.

You then measure various frequencies for max output, and get relatively consistent results vs. other subwoofers.

2. There is a lot of useful information to be had. For example, if subwoofer "A" can deliver 100 dB @ 20 Hz, and subwoofer "B" 110 dB, in a real world experience, subwoofer "B" will shake your room with a lot more authority.

Subwoofers that sound good measure well. However, not all aspects of a subwoofer's performance can be determined by measurements. Perhaps someday, but not yet.

3. The eD guys are pretty good fellas - they want to get "regular" customer orders caught up ... they will let me know when they can get an A7-450 here. That being said, it is the same amp and driver as the A7-900, You ordered the sealed version, correct ? I am sure it will be excellent.

I should have an MFW-15 VERY soon.

1. A GP, or groundplane, measurement has other names (2 pi the most common) ... but the basics are this, you measure but placing the microphone on the ground, and the subwoofer on the ground, usually with 2 meters separating them.

You then measure various frequencies for max output, and get relatively consistent results vs. other subwoofers.


For those interested, there is more information available in a good article on the Stereophile website. The article, Time Dilation, by Keith Howard, goes into some of the theory on Ground Plane Measurments.


Paul Braman


P.S. I can't post links yet because I haven't made 3 posts to the forum. Google "stereophile" and then enter "time dilation" in the site's search engine.

Here you go Paul, and thank you.

Time Dilation Part 1 (http://www.stereophile.com/reference/105kh/index.html)

I, for one, welcome our subwoofer testing overlords.

1) Buy a lot of subwoofers with your own money.

2) Test them with a variety of program material and subject yourself to the pod emerging scene repeatedly at high SPL.

3) ???

4) Profit!

ROFL!
Craig buys and keeps all of those subs? Thats not the impression I got.

ROFL!
Craig buys and keeps all of those subs? Thats not the impression I got.

He sells some every once in a while, but keeps a few.

Honestly, it's the only reason Craig has ever reviewed anything from us, because he buys it. We aren't kicking a customer out of line for a reviewer, but since he's also a customer, it works fine :)

4) Profit!

Time to put down the crack pipe, my friend.

I, for one, welcome our subwoofer testing overlords.

1) Buy a lot of subwoofers with your own money.

2) Test them with a variety of program material and subject yourself to the pod emerging scene repeatedly at high SPL.

3) ???

4) Profit!

Ot? http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/ohnoes.gif

Thats the Underpants Gnomes thing from south park
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2033/1785221042_2f631f3876.jpg

I LOVE south park, seen every single episode ever made

Thats the Underpants Gnomes thing from south park
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2033/1785221042_2f631f3876.jpg

I LOVE south park, seen every single episode ever made

No, it's not. Southpark stole it.
Southpark is ok, it has been watered-down and lost it's edge.

I didn't know Southpartk stole that. Funny. It is a joke reference that only nerds/geeks will get.

I considered saying -

In Soviet Russia, subwoofers test you!

Some of you will get this - others not. It is a Slashdot reference.

I have suggested to Craig he should start his own for profit audio blog which I would definately add to my favorites but for some reason he continues to give AVS forum all the ad revenue.

:D:D:D

Craig, I was just wondering when you might be ready to post your final thoughts on the Valor? I'm trying to decide if that will be enough to keep me happy or if I want to spend the extra $200 to get the A7s-450. Thanks.

Wouldn't it be true if I said ,based on the list, ED and Epik perform a lot better than SVS and HSU models of the same price level? With the exception of the pb13 ultra. Other brands don't even come close.
Oh and I'm amazed at how many people worry about looks and size..Personally I would buy a sub that looks like a 3 meter tall toilet bowl, as long as the sound/price ratio was top notch.

If that is the case then ED may be your best choice. The only complaint I have read regarding ED subs is the finish of the box. I solved that problem by placing my A7S-450 in a built-in. The only thing that shows is the grille (that is when I get my grille).

Can someone construct a flow chart to demonstrate how we got from subwoofers to South Park ? This may be the best thread jack yet ... :D

Craig, I was just wondering when you might be ready to post your final thoughts on the Valor? I'm trying to decide if that will be enough to keep me happy or if I want to spend the extra $200 to get the A7s-450. Thanks.

Not trying to rush you Craig, but I'm interested in the Valor too (not that I'm special...I'm sure there are plenty others interested as well)....just looking forward to what you think.

The Valor is up next ... It has been in our basement theater, and does a nice job there - but that room is a pretty easy room to drive. Look for the torture to begin as soon as I can get the Conquest out of the way.

I remember when a PB12-Plus/2 seemed hard to move ... :D

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it true that if total port area stays the same, it's better to have more ports for more output. For example, a tri port enclosure would be 3dB louder at tuning frequency than a dual port enclosure if port area and enclosure are the same. Is this "theory" true?

The Valor is up next ... It has been in our basement theater, and does a nice job there - but that room is a pretty easy room to drive. Look for the torture to begin as soon as I can get the Conquest out of the way.

I remember when a PB12-Plus/2 seemed hard to move ... :D

I'm looking forward to the results. I probably lost a pound when I was moving my PB13 into my living room. Tell me about it, how do you feel after hauling some subwoofers outside or to another room?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it true that if total port area stays the same, it's better to have more ports for more output. For example, a tri port enclosure would be 3dB louder at tuning frequency than a dual port enclosure if port area and enclosure are the same. Is this "theory" true?

If you believe the description for the Conquest on Epik site, the opposite is true

No, it's not. Southpark stole it.
Southpark is ok, it has been watered-down and lost it's edge.
From who? SP didn't lose anything in my eyes, in fact the first two seasons seemed the weakest to me..