Official Craigsub rankings thread [Text View] - Page 2

JEFFREY GTS

01-10-07, 04:46 PM

Jeffry - I don't have the VTF-3 Mark II, just the VTF-3 HO, VTF-3 Mark III, and VTF-2 Mark III.

Jeff ... The MBM was only about 5 feet closer to me than the HO's were - no where near enough difference to cause any smearing.

Now that everything has arrived, there will be more testing done. It is also time to take pics of all these subs. The Ear has 30, and I only have 18 (I know, amateur) ... but perhaps you guys would like to see some pics this weekend ?

Too many Jeff's asking questions at the same time. :)

I know it's not 30 but you have more than enough subs to make some comparisons, I am intersted in the final outcome but am really interested in the comparison between the VTF3 MK3 and PB12-NSD. I need to make a decision soon whether I am keeping it or not.

JEFFREY GTS

01-10-07, 04:49 PM

I know.......I'd be all in for the GTG. It would only take me a little more than an hour drive!

I'd love to be able to directly compare my sub to the 17 others you own! That is a dream come true!

Yes, please do! And let me know the outcome. :D

bgillyjcu

01-10-07, 06:04 PM

Jeff if there is a GTG I'll be sure to give you all of the results and opinions in full detail!
:)

TheEAR

01-10-07, 09:00 PM

Kevin12586

01-10-07, 10:46 PM

Craig, have you played with the HO farfield and the MBM nearfield?

The last I read from you was that they were about 5 feet apart and I remember reading that you were thinking of placing the HO in the front of your room and the MBM behind your sofa to better distinguish between the two.

I am curious to read how you feel the HO sounds paired with the MBM.

Thanks

JEFFREY GTS

01-11-07, 10:33 AM

Jeff if there is a GTG I'll be sure to give you all of the results and opinions in full detail!
:)

Sounds like a plan.

JEFFREY GTS

01-11-07, 10:38 AM

bgillyjcu

01-11-07, 10:45 AM

Jeff.....I wish I had the money because after all of this SUB-20hz talk in the other discussion I am going crazy. I cannot get IRENE to really SLAM because of the 5-10hz bass it has!

Now I wonder if I should have splurged for the 16-46plus and tuned it down to 12hz! In room response would be pushing 8-10hz and I'd actually be able to FEEL those CHOPPERS !!!!! LOL

But in reality......I can always add something to really DIG DEEPER later to add to the PB-12nsd I have now :) That will give me the 20hz and up inpact along with the 20hz and below SLAM.

Subwoofers should have the slogan like the NBA.

"I love this game" :D

JEFFREY GTS

01-11-07, 10:48 AM

I hear you. Are we EVER really going to be satisfied with our subs? There is always going to be something that plays louder, deeper, cleaner.
But you are right, oh how I love the game. Now my significant other might be getting sick of it.

bgillyjcu

01-11-07, 10:55 AM

Ya the problem with the "GAME" is that satisfaction is all relative to MONEY on hand.

Sure you could take back your $599 PB-12NSD and get something more expensive that would be better.

But the question is how much better for how much money.

You and I seem like we are clones for what we strive for bass wise. We want the best of the bottom digging bass that will rattle our bones (and our house).

I think one 16-46PCI+ subs would make us happier and 2 would make us MUCH happier ....1 of these subs tuned to 12hz can easily reach 8-10hz in room........

OR one PC ULTRA tuned to 12hz....that would make my face hurt from smiling....2 might bring the house down...(which would be totally fun)

Problem is that they are $950 EACH for the PC+ and $1150each for the Ultras...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I should tell you my "new" plan is to wait a year and get the LOWEST DIGGING SVS sub they make to add to the NSD. (Probably their newest Ultra PC)

NSD will take care of 20hz to 80hz and I will not lose the mid bass SLAM
ULTRA will take care of 20hz and below :)

on paper and in my mind this sounds really good :)

SbWillie

01-11-07, 10:58 AM

J

Now I wonder if I should have splurged for the 16-46plus and tuned it down to 12hz! In room response would be pushing 8-10hz and I'd actually be able to FEEL those CHOPPERS !!!!! LOL

:D

I've talked to several of the SVS guys and was told the 16-46 CANNOT reach ref. levels anywhere near 10 Hz unless you have several subs($$$ or more expensive subs).

"... 16hz mode would be 110-116dB and 12hz mode will be 108-114dB. That would be 10-15dB under reference if you like the bass a few dB hot." TOM V (email)

and that's with the PC-Ultra..the 16-46 is a couple Dbs lower @ 12 Hz tuning. :o

I'm not concerned with ref. level bass and am considering either of these SVS' or the HSU3-HO.(kids and room is LR by youngest child's BR)

bgillyjcu

01-11-07, 11:05 AM

12hz mode will be 108-114dB

Wouldn't that shake the hell out of you......especially if you are only 10feet away from the sub?

JEFFREY GTS

01-11-07, 11:18 AM

bgillyjcu

01-11-07, 12:07 PM

Jeff I didn't know your budget allowed you to spend up to $1000.

So in reality you could upgrade your PB-12NSD.....You have another $400 to spend...

That being said....The HSU VTF-3 HO with Turbocharger actually might be your best buy over anything that SVS is offering AT THIS MOMENT. It really has some glowing reviews on here. It is a level above the NSD so you really cannot compare the 2 subs. It is more comparable to the PLUS series from SVS.

(I know you are in a 45day window and that if you are going to make a move you cannot wait for SVS to unveil their new line of subs).

Although the 16-46PC+ for $949 would dig VERY VERY DEEP and adding a 2nd sub would be something we will both probably do regardless of what we have right now. (I'm not as concerned about the mid bass loss because I do not use my sub for music that often!)

And of course if you can splurge another $150 (lol) the PC Ultra for $1150 would obviously be an even better choice....

I have a feeling the new ultra tubes will be more expensive because of increased costs of production and obviously a higher quality sub....(my uneducated guess will be $1200-$1400).

Pradeep

01-11-07, 12:15 PM

The Ultra in 12Hz mode has only one 3" port open, you can get quite a bit of port noise when pushing hard in this configuration. If you really want deep extension, the 16-46 is hard to beat with two 3" ports open in 12Hz tune. You do need two to get "reference" levels in larger rooms though.

Was it Nicholas that had the eight 16-46s in his home theatre?

craigsub

01-11-07, 12:22 PM

Craig,

Your reviews are way better than those of many "pro" reviewers,who talk...talk...the talk,and miss to post measured performance. Keep it up Craig

Do I hear some peeps make fun of 30 subs :mad: :p Well that is good,at least there is some interest,and BTW I have a Trinity on order,ordered today! HE HE Soon ,finally I will be able to see....HEAR what the hype is all about,I want to eat my own sarcastic words about Deaf Tech. ;)

I appreciate the compliment, though I do like reading all subwoofer reviews. Your review of the Trinity is now officially getting some pressure - if you like it enough, I will make sure one gets into the shootout - it looks like a natural competitor to the AV123 BMF.

Didn't you once list all your subs ? I was sure that list was in a thread somewhere.

As for those demanding pics of all the subs: Lighten Up ... there is no need for beating on The Ear, guys. He just happens to be more warped about subs than anyone else. SOMEONE has to make me look reasonable.

For that, I appreciate the man ... :D

Plus - his opinions on the various subs are pretty reasonable and well stated. :)

bgillyjcu

01-11-07, 12:22 PM

I'd think that one 16-46 would dig nice and deep in the rooms we are using them in.

for instance my living room is 1536cuft, open into an 1152cuft dinning room.

8 of them........that is my dream!

craigsub

01-11-07, 12:23 PM

Kevin - The MBM-12 will get the nearfield treatment starting this weekend ... look for it with the PB12 and the Mark III's ... and the UItra/HO later.

JEFFREY GTS

01-11-07, 01:04 PM

Jeffry - I don't have the VTF-3 Mark II, just the VTF-3 HO, VTF-3 Mark III, and VTF-2 Mark III.

Jeff ... The MBM was only about 5 feet closer to me than the HO's were - no where near enough difference to cause any smearing.

Now that everything has arrived, there will be more testing done. It is also time to take pics of all these subs. The Ear has 30, and I only have 18 (I know, amateur) ... but perhaps you guys would like to see some pics this weekend ?

I was looking at HSU's website and the VTF-2 MKIII looks to be one heck of a deal and one heck of a sub. I might go that route and do two of those. It still looks to dig down to 18hz. I just became a lot more interested in this sub. So when you get some play time with this one Craig, let us know your results.

bgillyjcu

01-11-07, 01:19 PM

well our NSD's dig down to 18hz as well....

plus a power advange for the SVS sub

I think the NSD is probably closest to VTF-3 MK3 in terms of power and extension

and the HSU is $50 more...

bgillyjcu

01-11-07, 01:20 PM

dear god this sounds amazing!

http://www.svsound.com/CES2007/SVS_PB_PCUltra13SubsSheet.pdf

Kevin12586

01-11-07, 01:23 PM

Kevin - The MBM-12 will get the nearfield treatment starting this weekend ... look for it with the PB12 and the Mark III's ... and the UItra/HO later.

I can't wait to hear your thoughts Craig, I am especially interested in hearing your views on the sound of the HO (preferably w/out turbo) paired with the MBM.

(Patiently twiddling his thumbs waiting for Craig) :D

JEFFREY GTS

01-11-07, 01:24 PM

Yes but from the many different reviews of the HSU subs and the info that I just got from talking to a guy at HSU, the VTF-2 MKIII might be what I am looking for. The variable tuning, two ports and how musical I have heard they are might be just wha I am looking for. Don't get me wrong, the SVS is the best sub I have ever owned but I don't feel it is as musical as my old AAD C-10 sub and I want the best of both worlds. I also feel that I have losta little bit of mid range punch with my SVS. Although it goes way deeper than any sub I have owned, it seems to be missing something in the upper bass region.

bgillyjcu

01-11-07, 01:29 PM

I am lucky in a way that I am not trying to use my sub for 2 purposes.

Mine is strictly for HT use.

The 2MKIII for only $469 is cheap! And with your $1000 max, you can get 2 of those right from the start!

This sounds like it might be the best route for you.

craigsub

01-11-07, 01:39 PM

bgillyjcu

01-11-07, 01:55 PM

I'll have to vote for:

DTS versions of Lord of the Rings
DTS Jurassic Park
DTS Master and Commander
Batman Begins
DTS U-571

Those movies really seemed to pack some MAJOR bass scenes in them!

I hate to say I'm SERIOUSLY starting to doubt my purchase of my PB-12NSD

Seems like the HSU subs might have a price/performance advantage for the VTF-2 MK 3 for $469

VTF-3 MK 3 for $649 seems even better of a price/performance advantage.

Of course this is all based upon the readings of this wonderful forum! :D

JEFFREY GTS

01-11-07, 02:09 PM

This weekend, even though I cannot take the PB12-NSD and the VTF-3.3 and 2.3 outside for some GP sessions, we can do some movie shots, and measure what each is doing, in terms of SPL, on scenes like we all know from WOTW and a few other movies, too. Requests on movies welcome. :)

The early results of the VTF-3.3 are outstanding, especially for a $700 subwoofer (final pricing) ... but we need to do some A/B testing against the PB12, Fathom 112, Ultra, VTF-3 HO, etc ... before making any performance judgements.

Craig,
Any early impressions on the VTF-2?
The more and more I think about it, the more I think that this could be one of the if not the best sub $500 subwoofer out there and one heck of a bargain. And if I go with my initial plan of two of them, might be in audio bliss.

thompson12

01-11-07, 10:34 PM

Hi all im new to the sub thing I have always had big full range speakers since the 1970's, now im doing a ht setup and im lost on the sub can you guys help me out. I have all athena speakers for the ht setup 70% movies 30% music I like tight hard hitting base not boomy and Im looking for a sub that sounds great for both

AS-B2 front
AS-C1 Center
WS-100 rear
Pioneer VSX 816 100w ch.
OPPO OPDV971H DVD

Im looking at the HSU-VTF-2 MK 3, Velodyne DLS-3750R and the Sunfire Carver Dominator D-8

How would you guys rank/compare these subs

thanks for any input

Kevin12586

01-11-07, 10:52 PM

Craig if you are looking for movie scenes to test your subs, I would suggest the Darla tapping scene from Finding Nemo, it is quick and to the point. :)

TheEAR

01-11-07, 11:57 PM

Craig,

Thanks,and belive it I will post pics of the Trinity along side my other subs.And low and behold open the Trinity and snap pics of the drivers,PR's and amp. As this has never been done to my knowledge. And I never saw pics of the inards of Definitive's newest subs.I better see quality components or there will be some product stomping.

My trusty TrueRTA/laptop/mic and the ole RatShack SPL meter will assist me,I want to verify the linearity of the Trinity at levels going from mild to wild. I have a full report planed. I will try to take two days off just to test the Trinity sub.

blaser

01-14-07, 09:17 AM

jedi.night

01-14-07, 09:39 AM

Just a personnal comment about the ranking of SVS Pb12+/2 and The 3 HO. :rolleyes:

Indeed, the 3 HO with Turbo is a very good performer, and I will personally order 2 units very soon :D . but I am wondering why this is a better sub than the SVS Plus/2.

The 3 HO is very good below 20 Hz, but above 25 Hz where most movie LFE occurs, the SVS will simply do the 3 HO by quite a lot (sometimes 10 db). The 3 HO seems to trade "midbass" (25-80) for deep bass below 20, thing that I personnally appreciate as I love deep bass, .

IMO (although I will order as I said twin 3 HO turbo), I find the SVS more balanced over the entire low bass frequency, and does not require a mid bass module, and will make overall a more equilibrium through the entire bass freq. range.

Also, the idea of adding a mid bass module is not appreciated by me, as a good subwoofer (IMO) should be able to handle Deep bass YES, but also bass that any 300$ subwoofer can handle (40-80 Hz) :( .

As per Craig test comparing DD18, SVS Pb 12+/2 and 3 HO wih and without , (IMO) the 3 HO without Turbo looks also more balanced, having better overall frequency responce, and certainly less distortion, so I am wondering why the 3 MO TURBO here is ranked better than the 3 HO without Turbo? Is it just because it goes deeper? Is it really enough? :eek:

One last thing I am "dreaming of" is to see FR and Max output, 2 m GP measurments for both the 3 HO with and without turbo... This will cut short many expectations or claims.

Hope my message is clear.... I love the bass depth of the HO, but I am also concerned about midbass, and refuse the idea of adding another sub for midbass (Pb12 +/2 does not need one!!).

Blaser

I think your missing one of the main points of the MBM-12. It allows for near field placement, lets say behind the couch. Allowing for impact from the mid bass regions. I have A/B'ed my setup, which also includes an PC-Ultra and MBM-12 and there is a noticeable difference, favoring the MBM to be in the setup.

blaser

01-14-07, 09:50 AM

I think your missing one of the main points of the MBM-12. It allows for near field placement, lets say behind the couch. Allowing for impact from the mid bass regions. I have A/B'ed my setup, which also includes an PC-Ultra and MBM-12 and there is a noticeable difference, favoring the MBM to be in the setup.

Thanks for your post :) , but the MID BASS unit is a newly invented thing that I find hardly acceptable, also this will increase the package cost by 400 $, I am talking about the 3 HO as a complete subwoofer..... Also important is my ranking questions....

jhixson

01-14-07, 09:53 AM

Also, the idea of adding a mid bass module is not appreciated by me, as a good subwoofer (IMO) should be able to handle Deep bass YES, but also bass that any 300$ subwoofer can handle (40-80 Hz) :( .

Blaser

The idea of the midbass module is really to place these frequencies nearfielf with a driver that was specifically designed for those frequencies.

Frloor standing mains generaly have multiple speakers all with there specifically designed purpose. Then we say man I like my main speakers but maybe I will add a subwoofer. My HO did not need a MBM it was by far the best sub I had ever had in my home and I am sure I would have felt the same way about the plus/2.

But being the kind of listeners most of us are if we have the money we always wamt more. I bought an MBM and although I have not totaly integrated it into my system my initial opinion is OMG this little box setting nearfield really added a lot to the experience. If I was to place it farfield next to the sub I think that this impact would not have been as great. I threw the Darla scene in the DVD and the MBM was moving a tremendus amount of air for just 50-60Hz.

Things evolve and the subwoofer world is really seeing a lot of changes. The MBM is not necessary to enjoy your subs, but is a pretty cool and effective toy.

blaser

01-14-07, 09:57 AM

jhixson,

Do you have a house curve in room FR, isn't it easier to obtain without the MBM?

blaser

01-14-07, 10:03 AM

[QUOTE=jhixson]My HO did not need a MBM it was by far the best sub I had ever had in my home and I am sure I would have felt the same way about the plus/2.

QUOTE]

Very good, that is what I like hearing. Do you use a Turbo? If yes how does it compare to without Turbo?

craigsub

01-14-07, 10:27 AM

Just a personnal comment about the ranking of SVS Pb12+/2 and The 3 HO. :rolleyes:

Indeed, the 3 HO with Turbo is a very good performer, and I will personally order 2 units very soon :D . but I am wondering why this is a better sub than the SVS Plus/2.

The 3 HO is very good below 20 Hz, but above 25 Hz where most movie LFE occurs, the SVS will simply do the 3 HO by quite a lot (sometimes 10 db). The 3 HO seems to trade "midbass" (25-80) for deep bass below 20, thing that I personnally appreciate as I love deep bass, .

IMO (although I will order as I said twin 3 HO turbo), I find the SVS more balanced over the entire low bass frequency, and does not require a mid bass module, and will make overall a more equilibrium through the entire bass freq. range.

Also, the idea of adding a mid bass module is not appreciated by me, as a good subwoofer (IMO) should be able to handle Deep bass YES, but also bass that any 300$ subwoofer can handle (40-80 Hz) :( .

As per Craig test comparing DD18, SVS Pb 12+/2 and 3 HO wih and without , (IMO) the 3 HO without Turbo looks also more balanced, having better overall frequency responce, and certainly less distortion, so I am wondering why the 3 MO TURBO here is ranked better than the 3 HO without Turbo? Is it just because it goes deeper? Is it really enough? :eek:

One last thing I am "dreaming of" is to see FR and Max output, 2 m GP measurments for both the 3 HO with and without turbo... This will cut short many expectations or claims.

Hope my message is clear.... I love the bass depth of the HO, but I am also concerned about midbass, and refuse the idea of adding another sub for midbass (Pb12 +/2 does not need one!!).

Blaser

Blaser ... when Ilkka did a GP session using a VTF-3 Mark II, it was within 6 dB at the widest variance vs. the PB12-Plus/2.

On what do you base the idea that the VTF-3 HO, with a longer throw driver and a more powerful amp, more port area and a larger enclosure, will be 4 dB or more less powerful than the VTF-3 Mark II ? In order for the PB12-Plus/2 to be 10 dB more powerful than the HO, this would need to occur.

Also - The purpose of the MBM is to place it nearfield, which eliminates (for the most part) the effect of the room in the more easily audible bass from 50 Hz and up, while allowing the larger subwoofer (ANY larger subwoofer, not just the VTF-3 HO) to be place further away, often preferred for a WAF rating.

It is my experience that the MBM fixes room problems more than anything else.

craigsub

01-14-07, 10:53 AM

Here are some of the subs being tested ...

Pic 1 - From Left, Rocket UFW-12, Hsu MBM-12, SVS PB12-Ultra, Hsu VTF-2 Mark III, SVS PB12-NSD, Hsu VTF-3 Mark III, JL Audio Fathom 112

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/speakers048.jpg

Pic 2 - Bullpen area with a Rocket Bigfoot sitting atop a Velodyne DD-18, Paradigm Studio 100 V.3's, and a pair of VTF-3 HO's with one Turbo.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/speakers049.jpg

Pic 3 - Family room with a PB12-Plus/2. LOVE the finish.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/speakers050.jpg

Pic 4 - Main theater area with a pair of JL Audio Fathom 113's .. the little guy on top is the Rocket Tyke.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/speakers051.jpg

Pic 5 - Rocket Mini with built in 8 inch sub.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/IMG_8554.jpg

Missing from this pic as they are currently doing bass elsewhere in our home is the PB10 from SVS (boy's gaming area), Rocket SW-10 SE (our bedroom system), the BLT DIY in the Dad room theater (AKA the only area that Dad is allowed a cigar ... :cool: ), the 2nd UFW-12, and the Rocket X-Sub.

mojomike

01-14-07, 11:19 AM

C'mon Craig. Light 'em all up at once! :eek:

craigsub

01-14-07, 11:22 AM

Here is a sample as to why I use the Steely Dan disc as a subwoofer reference ... check out the response of the kick drum (I believed synthesized) ....

SVS PB12-NSD ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SVS2AN.jpg

Hsu VTF-3 Mark III

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/Hsu332AN.jpg

mojomike

01-14-07, 11:34 AM

Here is a sample as to why I use the Steely Dan disc as a subwoofer reference ... check out the response of the kick drum (I believed synthesized) ....

They probably take a natural kick drum and feed it through a subharmonic synthesizer. That will generate a frequency one octave below the fundamental drum tone.

craigsub

01-14-07, 11:39 AM

They probably take a natural kick drum and feed it through a subharmonic synthesizer. That will generate a frequency one octave below the fundamental drum tone.

That makes sense ... I know that for 4 years, nothing has matched this disc as an overall torture test for a subwoofer. It has bass from about 16 Hz up to where the mains take over.

Every subwoofer gets subjected to this disc ... for the obvious reasons.

For a teaser ... the PB12-NSD, IMO, sounds better than the Plus/2 ... it is a remarkable value.

And the VTF-3.3 is re-writing the performance rules for a subwoofer anywhere near its price range.

These 2 subs are BOTH home runs.

cschang

01-14-07, 11:45 AM

Oh wow....look at all that!!

Craig.....heard the Strata Mini at CES....a great value at $2000.

With moving around all those subs and speakers......how is your back? :)

jonnyozero3

01-14-07, 12:13 PM

As always, thanks for posting your thoughts, craig. :) Looks like a lot of fun.

bfdtv

01-14-07, 12:25 PM

craigsub,

What are you impressions of the VTF-3 Mk3 vs VTF-3 HO? Are you going to have an opportunity this weekend to A/B those two?

mziegler

01-14-07, 12:28 PM

Stacking the Fathoms was probably a violation of OSHA. I hope you have lots of Advil.

craigsub

01-14-07, 12:33 PM

My back is fine ... though I don't need to go to the gym today. :eek:

The Fathoms are quite the pair stacked like that, but it is the TYKE that is making them sing ... :D

No chance to directly compare the VTF-3.3 to the HO yet - that will be later, after finishing the VTF-3.3 to SVS PB12-NSD and PB12-Ultra.

new27

01-14-07, 01:01 PM

Craig, is that the "hot rodded" UFW-12, if so, how has it been upgraded.

Also, do you have final scores yet for the VTF III and SVS PB12?

Please remember, from your words, to my mastercard...:)

jephdood

01-14-07, 03:24 PM

I'm also interested in the 3.3 vs. HO. The 3.3 seems to be the value champ, and while the HO certainly outperforms it.. by how much?

Is the 2.3 essentially a VTF-3 II with less power?

Mark Seaton

01-14-07, 05:53 PM

Craig, is that the "hot rodded" UFW-12, if so, how has it been upgraded.

Also, do you have final scores yet for the VTF III and SVS PB12?

Please remember, from your words, to my mastercard...:)

The UFW-12 Mk2, aka the hot-rodded version, has not been released quite yet. Soon.

rossandwendy

01-14-07, 06:18 PM

Is the 2.3 essentially a VTF-3 II with less power?

Yes, according to HSU - they share the exact same driver, cabinet size, and dual 3" ports, but the 3.2 will play a little more than 1db louder at max SPL due to the slight difference in amp power.

The 3.2 was selling for $699, so the nearly identical 2.3 at $469 is a pretty amazing bargain.

Fnord

01-14-07, 06:56 PM

My back is fine ... though I don't need to go to the gym today. :eek:

Luckily they managed to find an extra to fill in for the doubles matches...

http://www2.willard.lib.mi.us/bcphotos/bcsanitarium/images/s03_1441.jpg

craigsub

01-14-07, 07:11 PM

Luckily they managed to find an extra to fill in for the doubles matches...

http://www2.willard.lib.mi.us/bcphotos/bcsanitarium/images/s03_1441.jpg

How did you manage to find my college yearbook ?

rockemsockem

01-14-07, 07:42 PM

Damn Craig, I didn't realize you were THAT old. :-)

jpmst3

01-15-07, 10:38 AM

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to suggest a dealer or two that is selling the JL 113? Used would be even better but far less likely. I am PA if that helps at all or matters.

Thanks!
Joe

lenbo

01-15-07, 10:46 AM

Check the for sale marketplace , someone put one up !

JEFFREY GTS

01-15-07, 01:12 PM

That makes sense ... I know that for 4 years, nothing has matched this disc as an overall torture test for a subwoofer. It has bass from about 16 Hz up to where the mains take over.

Every subwoofer gets subjected to this disc ... for the obvious reasons.

For a teaser ... the PB12-NSD, IMO, sounds better than the Plus/2 ... it is a remarkable value.

And the VTF-3.3 is re-writing the performance rules for a subwoofer anywhere near its price range.

These 2 subs are BOTH home runs.

I did some more tweaking and listening sessions this past weekend and am extremely impressed with the SVS PB12-NSD. I played a lot more music on it and think it is a very musical sub. I think I have it integrated into my mains very well now. I also watched Toy Story II last night with the family and was floored by the subs authority and low frequency capabilities. It is by far the best sub I have ever owned. I am just wondering how much better the VTF-3 can be? I looked at the charts and it is very impressive. Craig, I was wondering if you can also do some direct comparisons between the VTF2 MKIII and the PB12-NSD?

jephdood

01-15-07, 02:10 PM

JEFFREY GTS

01-15-07, 02:18 PM

"For a teaser ... the PB12-NSD, IMO, sounds better than the Plus/2 ... it is a remarkable value."

This is interesting... speaking as a former 12-Plus/2 owner.

So yeah.. what's the best value 'do it all' sub? VTF-2.3, VTF3.3, or 12-NSD?

That is my same question. Those are the only three subs I am considering. And being the owner of the PB12-NSD already, the HSU's have to be a big difference for me to make the switch.

JimP

01-15-07, 02:35 PM

Anybody else anxiously awaiting the results from this weekend????

JEFFREY GTS

01-15-07, 02:37 PM

Anybody else anxiously awaiting the results from this weekend????

Not at all. I could care less. As Borat would say..... Pause... Not! :D

craigsub

01-15-07, 02:42 PM

Anybody else anxiously awaiting the results from this weekend????

The teaser mentioned earlier WAS the results from this weekend. It takes a couple of weeks to really do a decent job of listening/measuring a subwoofer's performance. So far, the PB12-NSD/VTF-3.3 combo has had a few hours of listening.

So far, the Hsu has been the more impressive performer between to exceptional values, under blind conditions .... but they will get another 40 hours of listening before the test is complete.

craigsub

01-15-07, 02:48 PM

Not at all. I could (not) care less. As Borat would say..... Pause... Not! :D

I could not care less about the results, either. ;)

akflyer

01-15-07, 02:57 PM

I am trying to decide between the VTF 2 mkIII and VTF 3 mkIII. Any preliminary thoughts so far on the VTF 2?

craigsub

01-15-07, 03:01 PM

I am trying to decide between the VTF 2 mkIII and VTF 3 mkIII. Any preliminary thoughts so far on the VTF 2?

The VTF-2.3 has not even been calibrated into the system yet - look for something at about the end of next week, after the PB12 and VTF-3.3 are done.

kampos

01-15-07, 03:04 PM

One movie scene I'd love a comparison for is the first battle scene in Master and Commander...
I currently own the PB12-NSD and have no plans for switching... mainly because why the risk of switching if you're happy with what you've got...
what I'd like to know, just out of curiosity, is how does the scene make you feel?... because as far I'm told your ear can't make out the lower frequencies (the PB12 is tuned to 18hz) but you can feel it... and I definately feel it with the PB12...

...thanks for doing all this by the way...

JimP

01-15-07, 03:32 PM

The teaser mentioned earlier WAS the results from this weekend. It takes a couple of weeks to really do a decent job of listening/measuring a subwoofer's performance. So far, the PB12-NSD/VTF-3.3 combo has had a few hours of listening.

So far, the Hsu has been the more impressive performer between to exceptional values, under blind conditions .... but they will get another 40 hours of listening before the test is complete.

Thanks craigsub,

Looking forward to the results as they come out.

Take care.

rossandwendy

01-15-07, 03:50 PM

I did some more tweaking and listening sessions this past weekend and am extremely impressed with the SVS PB12-NSD. I played a lot more music on it and think it is a very musical sub. I think I have it integrated into my mains very well now. I also watched Toy Story II last night with the family and was floored by the subs authority and low frequency capabilities. It is by far the best sub I have ever owned. I am just wondering how much better the VTF-3 can be? I looked at the charts and it is very impressive. Craig, I was wondering if you can also do some direct comparisons between the VTF2 MKIII and the PB12-NSD?

The opening to Toy Story II is one of my favorite demos scenes!

Jeffrey, sounds like you have the PB12-NSD nicely fine-tuned and integrated in your system now and since the sound is pleasing you my guess is you may not notice enough of a difference to justify getting an HSU and taking the subsequent loss on the shipping fees of your SVS.

My room is really difficult for bass reproduction because of its openings to 3 other rooms and a stairwell, and I bet if I was in a more reasonable enclosed space like under 3,000 c.f. that my SVS would have sounded much better to my ears since it would not have been straining so hard.

JEFFREY GTS

01-15-07, 04:17 PM

The opening to Toy Story II is one of my favorite demos scenes!

Jeffrey, sounds like you have the PB12-NSD nicely fine-tuned and integrated in your system now and since the sound is pleasing you my guess is you may not notice enough of a difference to justify getting an HSU and taking the subsequent loss on the shipping fees of your SVS.

My room is really difficult for bass reproduction because of its openings to 3 other rooms and a stairwell, and I bet if I was in a more reasonable enclosed space like under 3,000 c.f. that my SVS would have sounded much better to my ears since it would not have been straining so hard.

The opening is pretty sweet. And my SVS is impressing me more and more everyday. I have been moving it and tweaking it ever so slightly over the past month and am pretty sure that I have it just how I like it. And I really agree with Craig, it takes a lot longer than a weekend of listening to really give an educated opinion on a sub. I havbe had mine for a month now and just now am ready to give a full review.

As far as being able to reproduce base in a difficult room, I have the same problem. When I had my house built, I chose the desing because of how wide open it felt, the vaulted ceilings the sitting area over looking the main living room. I chose it because it was a wide open floor plan. The same reason I chose the home is the main enemy of my home theater system now. I find it hard to produce bass and it is harder to play all speakers at reference levels. If I had this system in a normal sized room with 10 foot ceilings and walls, I am sure it would be more than anyone would ever need. I listened to this subwoofer in Ron Stimpson's downtown office and was blown away by it, of course, I was sitting closer to it and it was in a much smaller room with bass traps. So to say the least, it sounded a lot different and better in his office than it does my home, in fact the SVS SBS-01 system sounded completely different than it did in my home. Now as I have stated, I am still very, very happy with the sub, it is a phenomanal sub, I think if I added another one and then added the HSU MBM, I would be in audio bliss.

rossandwendy

01-15-07, 04:33 PM

The opening is pretty sweet. And my SVS is impressing me more and more everyday. I have been moving it and tweaking it ever so slightly over the past month and am pretty sure that I have it just how I like it. And I really agree with Craig, it takes a lot longer than a weekend of listening to really give an educated opinion on a sub. I havbe had mine for a month now and just now am ready to give a full review.

As far as being able to reproduce base in a difficult room, I have the same problem. When I had my house built, I chose the desing because of how wide open it felt, the vaulted ceilings the sitting area over looking the main living room. I chose it because it was a wide open floor plan. The same reason I chose the home is the main enemy of my home theater system now. I find it hard to produce bass and it is harder to play all speakers at reference levels. If I had this system in a normal sized room with 10 foot ceilings and walls, I am sure it would be more than anyone would ever need. I listened to this subwoofer in Ron Stimpson's downtown office and was blown away by it, of course, I was sitting closer to it and it was in a much smaller room with bass traps. So to say the least, it sounded a lot different and better in his office than it does my home, in fact the SVS SBS-01 system sounded completely different than it did in my home. Now as I have stated, I am still very, very happy with the sub, it is a phenomanal sub, I think if I added another one and then added the HSU MBM, I would be in audio bliss.

Sounds like you have a beautiful home! Aesthetically I love those big open floorplans with high vaulted ceilings, lofts, etc. I wish a had available a medium size sealed room I could take and use only for HT with proper room treatments and no concern for the WAF :p

Wow, I bet two PB12's and an MBM12 would totally blow your mind! What's cool with that approach is you could add on one upgrade at a time and each one would provide a nice improvement.

JEFFREY GTS

01-15-07, 04:49 PM

Sounds like you have a beautiful home! Aesthetically I love those big open floorplans with high vaulted ceilings, lofts, etc. I wish a had available a medium size sealed room I could take and use only for HT with proper room treatments and no concern for the WAF :p

Wow, I bet two PB12's and an MBM12 would totally blow your mind! What's cool with that approach is you could add on one upgrade at a time and each one would provide a nice improvement.

a loft! That was the word I was searching for. Brain freeze for a minute.
And me too, I want a dedicated room so bad but have to do the theater/entertainment room in my main living room so can't have bass traps and subs sitting all over the room. The subs have to go in the right front corner and I might be able to get away with the MBM sitting to the front right wall next to my couch. One of these years, I will finish the basement and put a dedicated theater down there, until then, have to make due with my living room. And I agree, one sub at a time and I am sure that I will notice a big improvement. I think I am going with the MBM next. Then another SVS. At that point, if I need anymore bass, I might be very well going deaf. :)

bgillyjcu

01-16-07, 10:31 AM

Jeff the more I read the more I think that an MBM would be our next step for bass bliss.

But I continue to wonder about the frequency response below the 18hz tuning point of our subs. It is true that with room gain we can possibly reach the depths of 15hz if we are lucky. But that still leaves us with sub 15hz bass that we cannot hear....well "feel". That to me is a level of bass that I want and need.

That being said, I wonder if adding an MBM and then a 2nd PB-12NSD is going to be the right move for us. Regardless of how many PB-12NSD's we add we cannot LOWER the frequency response, we can only gain more headroom.

Obviously the MBM is a good idea for ANY set up because of the mid-high bass that it dominates. Then I wonder if our next SVS step should be something OTHER than another PB-12NSD so we can attain that sub 15hz bass.

---Should we go a single driver ultra and set it to 10hz mode and set it on top or underneath our PB-12NSD?
or
---Should we get a 16-46PCI PLUS and set it to 12hz mode and set it right next to our PB-12NSD?
or
---Should we get a PC Ultra and set it to 12hz mode and set it right next to our PB-12NSD?
OR
---Is there another SVS option that would give us what we are looking for that we are not currently thinking about.

Would these combinations totally cover frequency range that all movies cover?

Most notably I'm thinking about Blackhawk Down and how IRENE has bass from 5hz and up. I don't just want 90% of the bass covered in my system, if I'm spending this much cash, I want it all covered. :D

Richard Mayer

01-16-07, 10:45 AM

Jeff the more I read the more I think that an MBM would be our next step for bass bliss.

But I continue to wonder about the frequency response below the 18hz tuning point of our subs. It is true that with room gain we can possibly reach the depths of 15hz if we are lucky. But that still leaves us with sub 15hz bass that we cannot hear....well "feel". That to me is a level of bass that I want and need.

That being said, I wonder if adding an MBM and then a 2nd PB-12NSD is going to be the right move for us. Regardless of how many PB-12NSD's we add we cannot LOWER the frequency response, we can only gain more headroom.

Obviously the MBM is a good idea for ANY set up because of the mid-high bass that it dominates. Then I wonder if our next SVS step should be something OTHER than another PB-12NSD so we can attain that sub 15hz bass.

If you want the deepest extension, you should get the 16-46PC+ (lowest NATIVE tune of all SVS' offerings), and tune it to 12 Hz (one port plug). Naturally multiples of that would be the best choice. Remember that <20 Hz frequencies need to be LOUD in order to hear/feel them. Then you could also add the MBM-12 for some higher upper bass punch.

bgillyjcu

01-16-07, 10:48 AM

Well I dont think I can do a DUAL 16-46 set up. I already have a PB-12NSD that I want to pair up with another sub.

Would a 16-46 and a PB-12nsd do the job I'm seeking?

Richard Mayer

01-16-07, 10:52 AM

Well I dont think I can do a DUAL 16-46 set up. I already have a PB-12NSD that I want to pair up with another sub.

Would a 16-46 and a PB-12nsd do the job I'm seeking?
Nope, you should have two subs with identical frequency responses. Otherwise you won't get a full 6 dB gain. You should sell the PB12-NSD and buy two 16-46PC+'s (and tune them to 12 Hz), if you want to hear/feel the sub-20 Hz bass. Or at least two 16-46PCi's... (you can't tune them any lower, but the native tune is 16 Hz).

bgillyjcu

01-16-07, 11:12 AM

JimP

01-16-07, 11:15 AM

bgillyjcu,

Considering how competitive the subwoofer market it, I'd at least call SVS to see what they're willing to do for an upgrade.

kampos

01-16-07, 11:33 AM

bgillyjcu
before you "upgrade" you may want to set up an audition with your favourite scenes to see the difference for yourself... I don't think specs say it all... if you can drive to Ohio, see if they'll set up an audition for you... I think it would be worth the price in gas...

JEFFREY GTS

01-16-07, 11:36 AM

Thats what I was afraid of.

In retrospect............how much would I really be missing with 2 PB-12NSD's.

Together with in room gain I'd be hitting 15-16hz effortlessly. For under $1200.

Wouldn't WOTW sound great on that? IS there THAT MUCH below the 15hz threshold that I'd be missing?

I really don't think you would be missing too much. I am already hearing and feeling low frequencies that I have never heard before. Two PB12-NSD's would be sick. I am about 80% sure that I am keeping my SVS. I am beyond happy with it. When I add the MBM and another PB12-NSD, the system will be nothing short of spectacular.

bgillyjcu

01-16-07, 11:37 AM

I only live an hour away from where they are located.

I actually just emailed Ed from SVS to get his thoughts and opinions about my situation.

Maybe I cannot truly feel Blackhawk down for another reason besides frequency response...

Maybe this is more of a HEADROOM issue than anything........if that is the case DUAL pb-12nsd's would solve that problem perfectly.

bgillyjcu

01-16-07, 11:38 AM

Speak of the Devil.......Jeff I just PMed you with a copy of the email I just sent to Ed

kampos

01-16-07, 12:43 PM

Jeffrey,
when are you adding the mbm?... would love to hear how it went for you...

JEFFREY GTS

01-16-07, 12:44 PM

Jeffrey,
when are you adding the mbm?... would love to hear how it went for you...

Hopefully very soon. Maybe in the next two weeks.

kampos

01-16-07, 01:13 PM

Hopefully very soon. Maybe in the next two weeks.
...have you read any good reviews about it so far?

JEFFREY GTS

01-16-07, 01:17 PM

...have you read any good reviews about it so far?

Yes. Here is a link. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768725

bgillyjcu

01-16-07, 01:33 PM

This is one of the reasons I'm concerned with bass response below the 18hz tuning point of my PB-12. Just look how much bass there is at or under 18hz...heck even under 10hz!!!!!

http://personal.inet.fi/yhdistys/uunoliitto/Graafit/AVS/War_Of_The_Worlds_Lightning.jpg

JEFFREY GTS

01-16-07, 03:29 PM

bgillyjcu

01-16-07, 05:59 PM

rossandwendy

01-16-07, 08:53 PM

Just picked up a rare Saving Private Ryan DTS DVD that I'll have to run my PB-12 through hopefully soon.

Also got the WOTW DVD with DTS on it. I'm interested to see what it sounds like since I've only heard the DD version that was on HBO HD on my system.

Those are both REALLY sweet and two of my favorites demos!

I finally bought the DTS version of The Haunting and ran through the reportedly most outrageous bass scene on it yesterday, and I was SERIOUSLY afraid for my woofer, my walls, and my neighbors!!! I am not exaggerating, it is just as Ed Mullen and others have reported, this DTS track has RIDICULOUS levels of both deep sustained bass (22hz) that nearly rattled a huge mirror off the wall, and the loudest most intense percussive mid-bass (on the knockings, in the 50hz range) I've ever encountered. And this was at only -18db from reference with the sub calibrated just +2db hot, hitting 102db uncorrected on the RS meter - I was way too scared to go any louder... :eek: :eek: :eek:

rossandwendy

01-16-07, 08:58 PM

Now another monkey into the wrench. I just got off the phone with a guy at av123. I was asking him about the MFW-15. He said they are coming out with that to compete with the SVS and HSU subs for home theater. I told him what I was looking for and he actually suggested the UFW-12. He said it is very accurate, very musical, has a ton of kick and slam to it and will perform very well for hometheater use as well as music. He did say that it won't play as low as the SVS or HSU though. So now I am very curious to see Craig's results on this one too, since this is another sub in his batch of subs to test.

Jeffrey, I say you use Craig as your inspiration and hang onto the SVS while also buying a VTF3.3, UFW12, and a bunch of other prime candidates and enjoy them all in your home! ;) :cool: :D

At least that would be my own fantasy if funds, space, and wife allowed :p

bgillyjcu

01-16-07, 09:00 PM

Those are both REALLY sweet and two of my favorites demos!

I finally bought the DTS version of The Haunting and ran through the reportedly most outrageous bass scene on it yesterday, and I was SERIOUSLY afraid for my woofer, my walls, and my neighbors!!! I am not exaggerating, it is just as Ed Mullen and others have reported, this DTS track has RIDICULOUS levels of both deep sustained bass (22hz) that nearly rattled a huge mirror off the wall, and the loudest most intense percussive mid-bass (on the knockings, in the 50hz range) I've ever encountered. And this was at only -18db from reference with the sub calibrated just +2db hot, hitting 102db uncorrected on the RS meter - I was way too scared to go any louder... :eek: :eek: :eek:

Is the Haunting actually any good? I hate to buy a movie that stinks just for the soundtrack. I'm a fan of good movies with great sound...

rockemsockem

01-16-07, 09:05 PM

I'm definitely considering switching my single 25-31Pci for 2 MFW-15's for $999. I saw the pics of the amp, and they have line level outputs, so I can run them in a true stereo configuration.

Plus the Rosewood cabinet is calling me. I just wonder if my room can handle 2 15's!

bgillyjcu

01-16-07, 09:12 PM

Ross.............I think I might have to get the Haunting after finding this in the waterfall thread...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v24/weezR/Waterfall%20SPL/TheHaunting_cold.jpg

rossandwendy

01-16-07, 11:48 PM

Is the Haunting actually any good? I hate to buy a movie that stinks just for the soundtrack. I'm a fan of good movies with great sound...

bgillyjcu, I agree with you, and admit that I have read many say The Haunting is a horribly bad movie (I haven't really watched it yet), but I just HAD to listen to that crazy bass for myself :) The DTS version is out of print but available used, and the DD version is not nearly as over-the-top amazing.

rossandwendy

01-16-07, 11:51 PM

pbc

01-17-07, 08:14 AM

rockem, where did you see pics of the amps? I wish we knew what a single MFW could do (versus say the HSU VTF3 or HO for instance) as dual subs are not in my future!

rockemsockem

01-17-07, 08:54 AM

rockem, where did you see pics of the amps? I wish we knew what a single MFW could do (versus say the HSU VTF3 or HO for instance) as dual subs are not in my future!

I thought I saw them in the MFW-15 thread at av123's forum. But now I can't find them. It's pissing me off. :p

The amp is actually 2 separate pieces, the controls will be mounted at the top for easy access, and the amplifier at the bottom with all the connections.

I'm very interested in the initial reviews as well, as I probably won't be able to do anything until July anyway.

craigsub

01-17-07, 09:04 AM

For a quick update ... The VTF-3 HO has been put back in the system, and we are doing a rotation between the PB12-NSD, PB12-Ultra, VTF-3.3, and the 3-HO ....

Look for the NSD and the 3.3 to be added to the list this weekend, and then next week starting with the VTF-2.3 vs. these subs.

Mark Seaton and Mark Schifter have some stiff competition in the $600 subwoofer arena ... it will be interesting to find out how the MFW-15 does on its own.

new27

01-17-07, 09:34 AM

nice

bgillyjcu

01-17-07, 09:36 AM

I'm looking for the Chart that shows the difference in frequency SPL with the HSU with Turbo and Without Turbo....

I forget where it was posted.

DrewB

01-17-07, 10:20 AM

I'm looking for the Chart that shows the difference in frequency SPL with the HSU with Turbo and Without Turbo....

I believe it's here. One thing you will soon find out is that you need a sophisticated spreadsheet to keep up with Craig's many tests across different threads and across 3-4 different forums. :D

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736829

bgillyjcu

01-17-07, 11:13 AM

I believe it's here. One thing you will soon find out is that you need a sophisticated spreadsheet to keep up with Craig's many tests across different threads and across 3-4 different forums. :D

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736829

Thanks...

That was the one I was looking for, but I was mistaken because I thought it was the HSU3.3 but really it was the HO that was being compared.

We'll still have to wait to see where the rankings fall for the PB-12NSD, HSU 2.3, and the HSU 3.3.

I'm very very interested.

JEFFREY GTS

01-17-07, 11:14 AM

Thanks...

That was the one I was looking for, but I was mistaken because I thought it was the HSU3.3 but really it was the HO that was being compared.

We'll still have to wait to see where the rankings fall for the PB-12NSD, HSU 2.3, and the HSU 3.3.

I'm very very interested.

Good morning guys! And yes, very interested too. :)

bgillyjcu

01-17-07, 11:22 AM

Jeff if the 3.3 with Turbo is THAT much better than our PB-12NSD. And close to, if not better than, the performance of the SVS PB-12Plus2, then...I think we might have to at least consider a switch...

Especially considering the price is 799 plus 100 shipping, so $899. Compare that to 1 PB-12Plus2 for $1200 plus 100 for shipping=1300. Or even our idea of Dual PB-12NSDs that would cost us about $1200 as well.

I watched WOTW the Lightning and Pod emerging scene last night and the lightning scene left me wanting more.....i wanted those strikes to really shake me, but they really didnt.

The pod emerging scene on the other hand shook the hell out of my house.

This all leads me back to the fact that the lightning scene contains a substantial amount of bass under 18hz, thus probably the reason I was kind of let down.

So would the 3.3 in turbo mode really improve that area I am lacking, while in addition also improving all other areas from 18hz and up....

or would 2 PB-12nsd's put me in the bass bliss place that I so desire to be in...

oh the questions that run through my mind.......lol

ps....Craig.........when you are testing the 3.3 are you using it in both turbo and non turbo mode????? Thanks

JEFFREY GTS

01-17-07, 11:27 AM

I really have no doubt that the 3.3 with and without turbo is a better sub than the PB12 NSD. And I have heard that with turbo the low frequency bass you are desiring will be achieved. So if you do decide to upgrade, what will you do with your SVS?

bgillyjcu

01-17-07, 11:35 AM

TJEli

01-17-07, 12:09 PM

Could someone with a 3.3 take some good pics of it? Picks of the enclosure, port area, amp, and driver?

Thanks,

-Eli

craigsub

01-17-07, 12:23 PM

I believe it's here. One thing you will soon find out is that you need a sophisticated spreadsheet to keep up with Craig's many tests across different threads and across 3-4 different forums. :D

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736829

See ? This is how things get started. I did not even open this thread, but who gets the abuse ? :D

This Sunday, I will run the Lightning scene with the Ultra, VTV-3.3 and HO (with and sans turbo), and the PB12-NSD ... this is a different room than last time, so it will be necessary to make sure all the subs get run again.

G-star

01-17-07, 12:45 PM

Jeff if the 3.3 with Turbo is THAT much better than our PB-12NSD. And close to, if not better than, the performance of the SVS PB-12Plus2, then...I think we might have to at least consider a switch...

just out of curiosity, have you EQ'd your current sub, tried different placements, bass traps, etc.? if not, you might be able to squeeze more performance out of your current setup with a little or no extra $$$. that seems to make more sense to me than just throwing money at the problem, based mostly off of results posted by someone else in an entirely different room with different equipment, no? if that doesn't work, then maybe it would be time to invest more money in an extra or different subwoofer?

craigsub

01-17-07, 12:53 PM

I know the 3.3 is better, it costs more, but HOW MUCH BETTER is the question i need answered....

ONE 3.3 with Turbo for $900 vs TWO PB-12NSD's for about $1100.....how would that war go...

(If I make a move I'd probably list it on craigslist cleveland.
I cannot ship it....I don't have the box, nor would I want the hassle of having to lug this thing around.....
I'd have to sell it locally....but this is just a remote idea at this point until i get some CLEAR SOLID statistical data and evidence!)

Trust me I love my PB-12........:)

The lightning scene does not have nearly the room shaking behavior that the Pods emerging scene does. Done properly, you should feel a shot in your chest from some powerful 15 Hz "pulses" in the lightning scene.

One reason the VTF-3 HO did so well in that scene is it really is flat to about 13 Hz, and can deliver palpable bass in that region.

Twin VTF-3 HO's with turbo is a real experience - for $2000, they will move some serious air.

Kevin12586

01-17-07, 01:20 PM

Craig, I wonder if you realize how many of us you have on the edge of our seats waiting for these results? :D

I have pretty much made up my mind on the HO but I am curious to see how the 3.3 compares to it.

Thank you for all of your hard work and time

JEFFREY GTS

01-17-07, 01:23 PM

just out of curiosity, have you EQ'd your current sub, tried different placements, bass traps, etc.? if not, you might be able to squeeze more performance out of your current setup with a little or no extra $$$. that seems to make more sense to me than just throwing money at the problem, based mostly off of results posted by someone else in an entirely different room with different equipment, no? if that doesn't work, then maybe it would be time to invest more money in an extra or different subwoofer?

We are trying to get the best performing subwoofer for the dollar and if I can get a better perfroming sub than my current SVS and pay a little more than I want to do that. I still can return my SVS for something else. Also some of the options that you suggested are not an option for me. I really don't have very many options for placement and the bass traps are out as well. Unless I can get some that look like artwork.

bgillyjcu

01-17-07, 01:25 PM

The lightning scene does not have nearly the room shaking behavior that the Pods emerging scene does. Done properly, you should feel a shot in your chest from some powerful 15 Hz "pulses" in the lightning scene.

One reason the VTF-3 HO did so well in that scene is it really is flat to about 13 Hz, and can deliver palpable bass in that region.

Twin VTF-3 HO's with turbo is a real experience - for $2000, they will move some serious air.

I will be awaiting the results of the weekends tests :)

For my set up the Pod emerging scene really did shake the house and couch and really everything else. When the ground is twisting around it was really like an earthquake....lol

Jeff I'm in your boat, can't do the bass traps, can't do anything with placement (although this is probably the best place)

When I get a theater room that will be a different story...

Maybe I am just expecting too much from one scene of a movie and too much from a $600 subwoofer.

Someone mentioned other factors that might be affecting response.....but in all honesty an 18hz tuned sub is going to have trouble reaching the 10-15hz pluses. They are there, just not as powerful as I'd like......

Thus my theory on getting 2 of these subs, then I'd have double the punch in that scene.

cschang

01-17-07, 01:27 PM

Don't forget to go to the newstand and pick up the latest issue of Sensible Sound. It has a review of the VTF-3MK3.

Remember...you guys have to give Craig time to listen. For the time being, that review should hold you over for another 30 minutes.

JEFFREY GTS

01-17-07, 02:35 PM

JEFFREY GTS

01-17-07, 02:36 PM

I will be awaiting the results of the weekends tests :)

For my set up the Pod emerging scene really did shake the house and couch and really everything else. When the ground is twisting around it was really like an earthquake....lol

Jeff I'm in your boat, can't do the bass traps, can't do anything with placement (although this is probably the best place)

When I get a theater room that will be a different story...

Maybe I am just expecting too much from one scene of a movie and too much from a $600 subwoofer.

Someone mentioned other factors that might be affecting response.....but in all honesty an 18hz tuned sub is going to have trouble reaching the 10-15hz pluses. They are there, just not as powerful as I'd like......

Thus my theory on getting 2 of these subs, then I'd have double the punch in that scene.

I am with you. I watched a movie last night and I also played some music and although I am still very impressed, I still find myslef wanting more.

cschang

01-17-07, 02:44 PM

I have been looking everywhere for that freaking issue. All I have come across is the previous issue.
I think it just hit the newstands in the last couple of days.

thompson12

01-17-07, 04:14 PM

Hello everyone, I did it, as you guys say here I pulled the trigger today I ordered the HSU VTF-2.3 can't wait till I get it :) :rolleyes: :D :cool:

I was passing by circuit city again today after I ordered the VTF-2.3 :D so I stopped in I finally got to listen to there subs, oh my god they sounded terrible I don't know how to explain it, it was like just one long low tone that carried from one beat to the next. I think my little Athena M225 blow them away

as far as the bookshelf speakers non of them compared to my Athena B2's not even the bose bookshelf

I think I'll be real happy with the VTF I'll let you's know

jonnyozero3

01-17-07, 06:22 PM

Remember...you guys have to give Craig time to listen. For the time being, that review should hold you over for another 30 minutes.

bwahahahaha

bgillyjcu

01-17-07, 07:20 PM

thompson12

01-17-07, 08:38 PM

I totally laughed when i read the YOU'S line.

I was born and raised in Western PA and this just made me laugh. Are you's from the eastern part of PA???

I know in my every day talk a YINS comes out every once in a while! LOL :)
ya Whitehall about 4 miles north of allentown I never new that was local talk lol

CKYRO1

01-17-07, 10:05 PM

i was trying to wait for craig to give his results for the vtf 3.3, but i couldn't wait any longer. i ordered it last week, and got it today. all i can say is it is incredible, especially at the price. i used to sell audio, paradigm, def tech, sunfire, klipsch, velo, etc. i can honestly say this is the best sub i've ever heard. i've only listened to a few movie scenes, and music, but it sounds really good. the only sub i ever sold that sounded nearly as good was the paradigm servo 15. however that was larger and over $2000. i have an orb setup, and was actually quite happy with the super 8 sub, but after selling so many subs i knew i was missing something. it blends well with the orbs. i originally was leaning to the SVS PB-12Plus2, but for the money i don't think the 3.3 can be beat, unless i come across some spare change for a JL f113.

cyberbri

01-17-07, 11:32 PM

Jeff I'm in your boat, can't do the bass traps, can't do anything with placement (although this is probably the best place)

You could easily fit 1-2 Tri-Traps (http://www.gikacoustics.com/product_info.html) in the corner behind the TV, one in the corner by the sub, and possibly in other corners in the room.

Luis5150

01-18-07, 12:08 PM

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 12:09 PM

Ross.............I think I might have to get the Haunting after finding this in the waterfall thread...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v24/weezR/Waterfall%20SPL/TheHaunting_cold.jpg

If anyone is looking to get their hands on THE HAUNTING DTS I just ordered one from Half.com for only $8.00 (that is with shipping).

I know there are a few more left....if anyone is really interested I can help you find it because you have to search a little.....

:)

craigsub

01-18-07, 12:11 PM

JEFFREY GTS

01-18-07, 12:12 PM

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 12:17 PM

Guys ... After a blitz of listening tests, including several other listeners (My brother's lead engineer and 2 musician friends) ... here are the scores and explanation for the PB12-NSD and the VTF-3 Mark III.

PB12-NSD: 86 Points. The NSD is a fantastic bargain @ $599. Up to its limits it even sounded better to the panel than did the PB12-Plus/2. In fact, a pair of PB12-NSD's would likely score about an 89. For home theater, it is powerful and makes movies a lot more fun that a $600 subwoofer should.

It lacks a bit in articulation for music, but is still in the pretty good category. Kick drims have a slight "rounding" to the sound, and stand up bass is a bit slower in the "catch and release" than the higher rated subs.

It is highly recommended, and any specific questions are welcome.

VTF-3 Mark III: 91 points. This subwoofer is pure joy. It does so many things well that it almost tied the VTF-3 HO overall. The HO is a bit more powerful in the deepest bass, and slightly tighter in its reproduction of music. Hsu Research has mentioned that the Mark III may even best the HO in upper bass, but no one on the panel heard a superiority of the Mark III to the HO on any track.

Considering the very reasonable "long term" price of $699, It is my opinion, and the opinion of the other listeners here, that the VTF-3 Mark III is the best overall value of all the subs we have had here during this process.

This sub is the answer to the question: "What subwoofer for under $800 is excellent for both the reproduction of music and movies" ?

We will be compiling some additional objective data on all the subwoofers being tested - and will be posting some graphs of various movie and soundtrack scenes by early February.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I guess we have this now:

1. $3200 + (shipping?) JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points.
2. $4995 + (shipping?) Velodyne DD-18: 100 points.
3. $2150 + (shipping?) ACI Maestro: 97 points.
4. $2200 + (shipping?) JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points.
5. $999 + ($105 Shipping) Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
5a. $899 + ( $80 shipping) Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
6. $649 + ($75 shipping) VTF-3 Mark III w/o turbo: 91 points
7. $1299 + ( $99 shipping) SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points.
7T. $1200 + ( $0 shipping included) Axiom EP-500: 90 points
8. $1299 + ( $99 shipping) SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points.
9. $599 + ($50+ shipping) PB12-NSD: 86 Points
10. $1099 + ($100 shipping) Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
11. $199 + ($43 shipping) Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
12. $99 + (shipping?) Rocket Tyke: 60 points
Craig.......is that VTF 3.3 rating with or without Turbo?

JEFFREY GTS

01-18-07, 12:23 PM

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I guess we have this now:

1. JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points.
2. Velodyne DD-18: 100 points.
3. ACI Maestro: 97 points.
4. JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points.
5. Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
5a. Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
6. VTF-3 Mark III: 91 points
7. SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points.
7T. Axiom EP-500: 90 points
8. SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points.
9. PB12-NSD: 86 Points
10. Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
11. Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
12. Rocket Tyke: 60 points

Craig.......is that VTF 3.3 rating with or without Turbo?

Good question. Hopefully non turbo as I am more interested in output not extension.

And his impressions are pretty much on par with mine. Great on movies, pretty good on music but not great. Lacks a little detail and accuracy that I have heard from other subs.
I think I am returning it and picking up the HSU.

cneely8

01-18-07, 12:25 PM

Hi Craig,
I'd love to see you sometime get a Mirage S-12 in the list, to see where you rank it aginst the others using your methods. Hopefully one of your buddies or someone near you has one...

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 12:25 PM

cyberbri

01-18-07, 12:27 PM

Cyberbri,

I've followed your posts for a while now and noticed you are a big supporter for room acoustics treatments and bass traps. I've looked at the GIK Acoustics products and those tri-traps got my attention.

Is there such thing as "too much bass traps"?

Let's say if I put a tri-trap in each corner of my room, would I be in danger of loosing some bass impact?

Would you recommend a tri-trap for each front corner, at least?

I dont have the ability to put one in all four corners of my room due to it is not a typical room. I would only be able to put two in the front corners behind my tv. Would I notice an improvment?

Bass traps - yes, yes, and more yeses.

I have 2 244 panels (GIK) in each front corner, possibly the rough equivalent of a Tri-Trap in each corner - although they stand out more than the Tri-Trap wedges. I don't have rear corners to add treatment to. But as soon as I added these to the front corners, I noticed an improvement in the clarity of the bass. It's like having a plamsa or something with a good black level, but not setting the Brightness level at first. Then you calibrate, get Black set at the correct level, and all of a sudden you can see a ton of detail in the shadows. It was like that with the bass. Ringing and boominess was gone, although I hadn't noticed any without the treatments. With treatments, it was cleaner and I knew that ringing and boominess had been there before. But I could hear the texture of the bass (VTF-3 MK2), different notes, etc.

If I had a standard room, I'd either buy or DIY the equivalent of 4 Tri-Traps in each corner - basically a solid column in each corner. If I could, I would do that in the front 2 corners of my room, to some extent. I would like to add more treatment.

But no, you can't have "too much" bass trap treatments - unless all you had were bass treatments and no walls. Basically they absorb the colliding bass waves in the corners to cancel out bad interaction. This helps smooth frequency response across more areas, can help dips in FR, and has the added bonus of getting rid of ringing and boominess caused by the bass waves bouncing all over. And because of this, it can actually give you more bass because of the improved/flatter response - with flat response, you can turn your sub up louder because more frequencies are at the same volume/level, rather than having some at 78dB, some at 71dB, and so on. The more the better, basically.

Yes, a Tri-Trap in each corner would do wonders. Stack 2 in each corner to cover the whole floor-to-ceiling corner for even better response.

G-star

01-18-07, 12:31 PM

I'm a little more concerned about the Extension in the under 18hz range....

if i were that concerned with < 20Hz content, i would be focusing on the VTF-HO with turbo or perhaps an SVS 16-46 PCi. i think either one would best the PB-12 NSD or Hsu 3.3 in that department.

JEFFREY GTS

01-18-07, 12:32 PM

Bass traps - yes, yes, and more yeses.

I have 2 244 panels (GIK) in each front corner, possibly the rough equivalent of a Tri-Trap in each corner - although they stand out more than the Tri-Trap wedges. I don't have rear corners to add treatment to. But as soon as I added these to the front corners, I noticed an improvement in the clarity of the bass. It's like having a plamsa or something with a good black level, but not setting the Brightness level at first. Then you calibrate, get Black set at the correct level, and all of a sudden you can see a ton of detail in the shadows. It was like that with the bass. Ringing and boominess was gone, although I hadn't noticed any without the treatments. With treatments, it was cleaner and I knew that ringing and boominess had been there before. But I could hear the texture of the bass (VTF-3 MK2), different notes, etc.

If I had a standard room, I'd either buy or DIY the equivalent of 4 Tri-Traps in each corner - basically a solid column in each corner. If I could, I would do that in the front 2 corners of my room, to some extent. I would like to add more treatment.

But no, you can't have "too much" bass trap treatments - unless all you had were bass treatments and no walls. Basically they absorb the colliding bass waves in the corners to cancel out bad interaction. This helps smooth frequency response across more areas, can help dips in FR, and has the added bonus of getting rid of ringing and boominess caused by the bass waves bouncing all over. And because of this, it can actually give you more bass because of the improved/flatter response - with flat response, you can turn your sub up louder because more frequencies are at the same volume/level, rather than having some at 78dB, some at 71dB, and so on. The more the better, basically.

Yes, a Tri-Trap in each corner would do wonders. Stack 2 in each corner to cover the whole floor-to-ceiling corner for even better response.

I have 20 foot vaulted ceilings, would one in each corner be a waste?

cschang

01-18-07, 12:34 PM

Craig.......is that VTF 3.3 rating with or without Turbo?
6. $649 + ($75 shipping) VTF-3 Mark III w/o turbo: 91 points

"w/o" = without

JEFFREY GTS

01-18-07, 12:35 PM

if i were that concerned with < 20Hz content, i would be focusing on the VTF-HO with turbo or perhaps an SVS 16-46 PCi. i think either one would best the PB-12 NSD or Hsu 3.3 in that department.

I agree. Doesn't the 16-46PCi go down to 12hz? I am not concerned at all with that low of frequencies. Most of the stuff in both movies and music are way above that. Even in the movies that go extremely deep, it is only for brief moments. I would rather have a sub that performs well at the higher frequencies and 18hz and above is completely fine with me.

cschang

01-18-07, 12:37 PM

6. $649 + ($75 shipping) VTF-3 Mark III w/o turbo: 91 points

"w/o" = without
oops...nevermind, I see now that is a list that you made.

JimP

01-18-07, 12:39 PM

cschang

01-18-07, 12:41 PM

Craig, remember a couple of years ago when we were complaining about keeping the names of the subwoofers straight or shortened? How do you feel about it now? :)

cyberbri

01-18-07, 12:47 PM

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I guess we have this now:

1. $3200 + (shipping?) JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points.
2. $4995 + (shipping?) Velodyne DD-18: 100 points.
3. $2150 + (shipping?) ACI Maestro: 97 points.
4. $2200 + (shipping?) JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points.
5. $999 + ($105 Shipping) Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
5a. $899 + ( $80 shipping) Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
6. $649 + ($75 shipping) VTF-3 Mark III w/o turbo: 91 points
7. $1299 + ( $99 shipping) SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points.
7T. $1200 + ( $0 shipping included) Axiom EP-500: 90 points
8. $1299 + ( $99 shipping) SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points.
9. $599 + ($50+ shipping) PB12-NSD: 86 Points
10. $1099 + ($100 shipping) Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
11. $199 + ($43 shipping) Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
12. $99 + (shipping?) Rocket Tyke: 60 points
Craig.......is that VTF 3.3 rating with or without Turbo?

First post on the thread needs to be updated with new results. :D

craigsub

01-18-07, 12:50 PM

I'm a little more concerned about the Extension in the under 18hz range....Craig, any comments with the 3.3 vs the 12NSD in the low end extension comparision......

(I'm hoping that is non turbo too.........the turbo would only increase the score.)

Dual PB-12nsds at a score of 89...

Dual VTF 3.3's would have to be 93-94 range then...

(correct me if I am assuming incorrectly.)

The Hsu was in its single port, 18 Hz extension setting, both go very deep - based on the listening tests, the Hsu gained the advantage due to its better handle on music and its overall ability to handle dynamics - not the extension.

The Hsu was tested in its non-turbo form.

As for the assessement about the PB12-NSD, I wanted to give an estimate of the performance of a pair, as the pair comes in at appx. the same $$$$ as a single PB12-Plus/2 ... and I find the NSD to sound better - and think a pair of NSD's is a better option, in strict performance terms, than a Plus/2.

This idea of dual subs adding 3 points is not always going to be accurate.

ALSO ... Please keep in mind that all these subs are great performers.

DrewB

01-18-07, 12:51 PM

VTF-3 Mark III: 91 points. This subwoofer is pure joy. It does so many things well that it almost tied the VTF-3 HO overall. The HO is a bit more powerful in the deepest bass, and slightly tighter in its reproduction of music. Hsu Research has mentioned that the Mark III may even best the HO in upper bass, but no one on the panel heard a superiority of the Mark III to the HO on any track.

Wow, sales for the HO might be in jeopardy given the Mark III excellent results!

JEFFREY GTS

01-18-07, 12:55 PM

Wow, sales for the HO might be in jeopardy given the Mark III excellent results!

I think you could be right. I just hope that the good Dr. doesn't think that he underpriced this wonderful sub and decide to hike up the prices on us like another company did. No names. :)
It doesn't look like that will be the case though, the introductory price of $649 is a steal but so is the "normal" price of $699, I just hope it stays there for a while so I can buy two of them. :)

rossandwendy

01-18-07, 01:00 PM

Craig, thanks for posting the results. In the coming weeks it would be interesting to read your evaluation of the VTF3.3 in max output mode (where in my room I notice more dynamic headroom and mid-bass slam from the 3.3), and in max extension with Turbo to see what dual 4" ports at 18hz extension does vs. having one port plugged. Also greatly looking forward to your graphs on the WOTW scenes.

Thanks again! :)

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 01:28 PM

if i were that concerned with < 20Hz content, i would be focusing on the VTF-HO with turbo or perhaps an SVS 16-46 PCi. i think either one would best the PB-12 NSD or Hsu 3.3 in that department.

Actually I am seriously considering selling my PB-12NSD to upgrade to 1 of the following.

VTF-3.3 with Turbo $749 +$100 Shipping + tax
VTF-HO with Turbo $999 + $105 shipping + tax
16-46PC+ $949 + $50shipping + tax

The 3.3 with turbo is clearly the winner in terms of price/performance....it comes in nearly $200 cheaper than any of the other 3 subs with performance that is close to them.

I really have no information to go on with the 16-46PC+ thought so if anyone can chime in it would be helpful.

cherry ghost

01-18-07, 01:44 PM

Hi Craig,
I'd love to see you sometime get a Mirage S-12 in the list, to see where you rank it aginst the others using your methods. Hopefully one of your buddies or someone near you has one...

Me too. I asked earlier in the thread but I think he missed my post.

cyberbri

01-18-07, 01:45 PM

I have 20 foot vaulted ceilings, would one in each corner be a waste?

I don't know enough about it to be able to answer that. I'll leave that up to someone who knows the science behind the acoustics. :p

new27

01-18-07, 01:55 PM

excellent work Craig

I see HSU sales going up, if they have not yet to do so, they need to throw you some free gear

craigsub

01-18-07, 02:16 PM

excellent work Craig

I see HSU sales going up, if they have not yet to do so, they need to throw you some free gear

Hey ... I already got a Hsu T-shirt, an SVS T-shirt and an SVS hat. That is offically over payment already ... :D

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 02:20 PM

How about like a 15-20% discount that you can use to get me a sub and I'll just pay you :)

LOL

new27

01-18-07, 02:20 PM

I updated the first post but removed the numerical designations as I wasn't sure how
Craig wanted the VTF 3.3 classified due to the turbo options

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 02:31 PM

I updated the first post but removed the numerical designations as I wasn't sure how
Craig wanted the VTF 3.3 classified due to the turbo options

I already updated them with price about 10 posts up from this one.

You should copy & paste it to reflect the price along with numerical rankings :)

JEFFREY GTS

01-18-07, 03:00 PM

Craig,

Maybe I missed it somewhere but as far as your point system goes, what is your criteria for rating, what are your categories and how many points can each sub get per category? I am assuming that the overall total would be 100 points.
Thanks.

AudiblConoiseur

01-18-07, 03:18 PM

If possible, can you get a VTF-2 MK 3 in there to bang away with the others? I hear from the Doc that it is VERY close to the 3.2 and it being the little brother of the 3.3, I would figure it to hang pretty well even with that elite group. What are the odds do you think? I do know that if it can hang in here, the $469 price point is simply something only an elite few would be able to overlook!

craigsub

01-18-07, 03:46 PM

This is not the actual review thread, but since it has been opened here, rather than make people try to go through a 1200 post thread on AV123, here are the basics in regards to the performance delivered, and the scoring criteria.

Each sub is run through a torture test, including max SPL using sine waves at various frequencies, max output on movie scenes, etc ... to date, we have about 350 graphs done, with a lot of examples posted on AV123, in the original thread.

Each sub is also put through hours of blind listening/comparison tests against the standard bearers like the Velodyne DD-18. Besides myself, my wife, a pro audio engineer, a couple musicians, and some audio "nut" friends have participated in the listening tests. Overall sound quality is given a lot of consideration for this shootout.

As the Velodyne DD-18 was the original standard bearer, it was assinged 100 points, and achieving more than 100 points is possible.

The scoring itself was designed to keep things simple, whole allowing for a huge difference in the results from the least to the highest performing unit.

Here is how the points schedule works from the AV123 thread ...

How the scaling works is this: each 3 points represents a 15% higher level of overall performance. It is also cumulative.

For example, The Fathom 113 is 43 points higher than the TYKE. Grab a calculator, and you will see you have 14.33 consecutive 15% improvements.

Take 1.15 x 1, and do it 14 times, and you get 7.08. Next, multiply 7.075 x 1.05, and you get 7.43.

In other words, the Fathom has 743% higher performance than does the Tyke.

The Hsu VTF-3 HO W/Turbo has 38.9% higher performance than does the SVS PB12-Plus/2 (in this case, the overall musicality added to extension wins the day).

The Fathom 113 has 46.5% higher performance than does the 112.

As an aside, to keep this from being overcomplicated, each single point outside the 3 point criteria is scored at 1.05, not according to a true scale, which would be 1.0477.

craigsub

01-18-07, 03:49 PM

JEFFREY GTS

01-18-07, 04:07 PM

We will be starting on the VTF 2 Mark III this weekend.

Thank's Craig for your explanation on your ratings. And I am very much looking forward to your feedback on the 2.3. Just curious as to how much better the 3.3 is.

craigsub

01-18-07, 04:20 PM

Can you describe your SPL measurement assumptions? And let's see some DBT information, scorecards and so forth. So far it sounds kinda subjective and hard to repeat by others.

You are welcome to check out the review thread in its entirety on AV123. There is an extensive amount of data there for you to read. :)

Matt34

01-18-07, 04:26 PM

Can you describe your SPL measurement assumptions? And let's see some DBT information, scorecards and so forth. So far it sounds kinda subjective and hard to repeat by others.

A little pushy are we? Sure am glad Craig gets paid for this. ;)

JEFFREY GTS

01-18-07, 04:30 PM

A little pushy are we? Sure am glad Craig gets paid for this. ;)

Yeah, I just wanted to make sure the other forum members are aware that for every member that has chimed in on this thread will be getting a bill real soon to cover Craigs salary. :D

craigsub

01-18-07, 04:35 PM

Yeah, I just wanted to make sure the other forum members are aware that for every member that has chimed in on this thread will be getting a bill real soon to cover Craigs salary. :D

Does this mean I will be getting a lot of new hats ? Some nice golf hats would be perfect. :cool:

Buckeyefan

01-18-07, 04:36 PM

I watched WOTW the Lightning and Pod emerging scene last night and the lightning scene left me wanting more.....i wanted those strikes to really shake me, but they really didnt.

The pod emerging scene on the other hand shook the hell out of my house.

This all leads me back to the fact that the lightning scene contains a substantial amount of bass under 18hz, thus probably the reason I was kind of let down.

You had me worried there. I just ran WOTW "lightning scene" with two port plugs at 16Hz, half gain, and it hit my chest hard, as well as rattled almost every window downstairs. Truely impressive with movies (Plus/2) which IMO this beast was specifically designed for.

JEFFREY GTS

01-18-07, 04:49 PM

Does this mean I will be getting a lot of new hats ? Some nice golf hats would be perfect. :cool:

We'll see what we can fo for ya Craig. :)

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 04:51 PM

You had me worried there. I just ran WOTW "lightning scene" with two port plugs at 16Hz, half gain, and it hit my chest hard, as well as rattled almost every window downstairs. Truely impressive with movies (Plus/2) which IMO this beast was specifically designed for.

That scene has a substantial amount of bass from the 15hz point and under....

I'd hope that a Plus/2 running at 16hz mode would be way better than my single PB-12nsd tuned to 18hz.

the plus/2 has better drivers, more power and more drivers...

I wonder how a 16-46PC+ would do on that scene....In theory it should be better than all of the subs SVS has to offer right now because it is tuned the lowest natively.

blaser

01-18-07, 04:56 PM

Everybody's mainly talking about HSUs... How do twin HOs compare to the ACI MAESTRO? Specially down to 16 Hz?

blaser

01-18-07, 05:01 PM

I mean HSU and SVS!

craigsub

01-18-07, 05:15 PM

Everybody's mainly talking about HSU and SVS... How do twin HOs compare to the ACI MAESTRO? Specially down to 16 Hz?

The Twin HO's with turbos will definitely out-gun the Maestro, even @ 16 Hz, in sheer SPL. Overall, I would call them about a match - the Maestro is even better on music that the Hsu pair (by a very small margin), while the Hsu pair can handle a larger room.

TJEli

01-18-07, 05:17 PM

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 05:27 PM

20hz tune mode would put your +/2's about the same tune as my PB-12nsd.

Am I just not feeling that scene because I'm lacking the headroom and the woofage...???

I was totally thinking I need something TUNED lower....thats why I'm investigating the 16-46PC+

Do you really think that Dual PB-12nsd's could compete with your F113???

JEFFREY GTS

01-18-07, 05:34 PM

My dual +/2s (when I had them) use to rock out to that scene in 20hz tune.

There is a lot of great info here about the new NSD and 3.3s. I am considering getting a couple PB12 NSDs in here to play with.

-Eli

Please do. I would love to hear your opinion on dual PB12 NSD's as that's what I am considering a long with another person on this forum. WHo would that be??? :)

TJEli

01-18-07, 05:38 PM

Do you really think that Dual PB-12nsd's could compete with your F113???

No.... but they arent supposed to. I have sold my F113 and I am going to get something else in here to play with. These entry level subs that are offering outstanding performance per$ are peaking my interest.

I also have some more important things to be spending my money on nowadays. ;)

-Eli

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 05:43 PM

Please do. I would love to hear your opinion on dual PB12 NSD's as that's what I am considering a long with another person on this forum. WHo would that be??? :)

Hmmm....No idea at all who that might be.

Jeff I can tell you that I have listed my PB-12NSD on craigslist.

Not because I dont love it and not because I dont think that DUAL pb-12s wouldn't be killer.

I just think that a 3.3 with turbo for really only $150 would really be an improvment in the LOW END punch that I'm looking for and dual 3.3's would be a vast improvement over dual pb-12's...

I must note that I'll only part ways with my PB-12 for the "right price" ;) If it doesn't sell, then oh well....I'll just have to buy a 2nd to really push the limits!!!

Either way I think its a win win for me....and you for that matter...

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 05:46 PM

No.... but they arent supposed to. I have sold my F113 and I am going to get something else in here to play with. These entry level subs that are offering outstanding performance per$ are peaking my interest.

I also have some more important things to be spending my money on nowadays. ;)

-Eli

How do you buy and sell all these subs?'

are you losing money by buying and selling and having to ship them out....

I'd love to play this game....but I cannot eat $100 shipping costs and i cannot eat the loss of having to sell a $600 sub for $500 after only using it for a month or 2....

TJEli

01-18-07, 06:06 PM

How do you buy and sell all these subs?'

are you losing money by buying and selling and having to ship them out....

I'd love to play this game....but I cannot eat $100 shipping costs and i cannot eat the loss of having to sell a $600 sub for $500 after only using it for a month or 2....

Yes I do lose money... sometimes more than other times but its a hobby for me. Hobbys cost money.

I am confident that a dual PB12 NSD setup will perform extremely well. I like what I am hearing about the 3.3s but to tell you the truth (and this is a non issue for some) I can't stand the way they look. I don't like the turbo and I do not like the side firing driver configuration.

-Eli

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 06:13 PM

TJEli

01-18-07, 06:15 PM

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 06:20 PM

Ed and I talked about that and the problem is that the roll off is steep after 18hz.

If the Signal is 15hz going in, reguardless of in-room gain, the infrasonic response of that 15hz signal is going to be weaker than what the movie had intended.

Weaker than say the reponse of a sub that has a 16hz or 12hz tune....

THAT BEING SAID.......maybe I just need dual PB-12's so the weaker response of one is doubled with Dual subs, thus making the response at a level that is more meaningful...

Legairre

01-18-07, 07:15 PM

Billy I originally had 1 VTF-3 MK2 (18Hz) and loved it so much I added a second. While the second smoothed out the response and added dBs I still wanted lower extension. I sold the 2 VTF-3 MK2 subs and picked up the HO w/turbo and it not only goes lower but also plays louder and out performs the 2 subs combined. It sounds like lower is what you really want to do so get a sub that plays lower and at least as loud as 2 PB-12 subs and add a BFD to smooth out the response.

Buckeyefan

01-18-07, 07:21 PM

I mean I can do 2-PB-12NSD's and probably be happy, just I might always wonder what 10-18hz FEELS like...

Thats why I'm really considering moving to a sub that is designed to reach down that low (and eventually get 2 of them)

I really think no matter what sub you have.....dual subs are 100% the way to go.

FWIW, when I was at the SVS factory with a buddy - also heavily into HT, we drove the heck out of all the cylinders, and all the boxed subs. It was both our opinions the Plus/2 and Ultra/2 boxed subs did much better with movies compared to the cylinders. The biggest impact we felt were scenes with car doors slamming, the depth charge scene in U571, a few scenes with The Incredibles, The Haunting, and the glass tapping scene in Nemo. The cylinders went low, but didn't have the same visceral impact and chest slam as did the Plus/2 and Ultra/2 boxed subs. Maybe this is why Craig doesn't include them in the comparos?

I'm very impressed with the ratings on the new HSU subs. For the money, they really can't be beat. I'm not sure how a single HSU without the turbo could compete with HT with a dual boxed SVS, but I haven't done a side by side as Craig has. I think music has a lot to do with these ratings. If music was taken out of the equasion, as well as not considering the turbocharger, I wonder how they would fair.

It's been my opinion that SVS has always focused on subs for HT first and foremost, then got some recognition with their 10" boxed sub for music. HSU was always known for better musical reproduction, but always playing catchup to SVS in the lowest Hz areas. I think HSU caught them with HT, but at a huge cost - the turbo charger which I just can't swallow. If they could incorporate that design inside the box, it would be a home run. Outside the box, I think it may be costing them sales. And as far as dual separate subs go, how many have room for two over sized boxes in their family rooms? Dedicated theater room - yes, but for those who are limited on space, one needs to decide if they want a HT/music sub, or dedicated HT. You guys with huge rooms and are able to run dual subs, that is definitely the way to go - as long as you can propertly set them up.

cschang

01-18-07, 07:28 PM

I think HSU caught them, but at a huge cost - the turbo charger which I just can't swallow. If they could incorporate that design inside the box, it would be a home run. Outside the box, I think it may be costing them sales. And as far as dual subs go, how many have room for two over sized boxes in their family rooms? Dedicated theater room - yes, but for those who are limited on space, one needs to decide if they want a HT/music sub, or dedicated HT.
Buckeye, Howard Ferstler got 109dB at 20hz in his room with a VTF-3MK3 without the turbo. The PC-Ultra he tested got 106dB.

Buckeyefan

01-18-07, 07:35 PM

Buckeye, Howard Ferstler got 109dB at 20hz in his room with a VTF-3MK3 without the turbo. The PC-Ultra he tested got 106dB.

The cylinders, as I said before, don't have the same impact and slam as do the dual Plus/2 and Ultra/2's. I am not a big fan of the cylinders - there was no comparison IMO between the two. The MK3 IMO is the better HT sub over the PC-Ultra.

Do you have the link? I haven't read it. A lot would depend on the size of the room, the distance to the sub, and the type of tone he was using.

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 07:46 PM

FWIW, when I was at the SVS factory with a buddy - also heavily into HT, we drove the heck out of all the cylinders, and all the boxed subs. It was both our opinions the Plus/2 and Ultra/2 boxed subs did much better with movies compared to the cylinders. The biggest impact we felt were scenes with car doors slamming, the depth charge scene in U571, a few scenes with The Incredibles, The Haunting, and the glass tapping scene in Nemo. The cylinders went low, but didn't have the same visceral impact and chest slam as did the Plus/2 and Ultra/2 boxed subs. Maybe this is why Craig doesn't include them in the comparos?

I'm very impressed with the ratings on the new HSU subs. For the money, they really can't be beat. I'm not sure how a single HSU without the turbo could compete with HT with a dual boxed SVS, but I haven't done a side by side as Craig has. I think music has a lot to do with these ratings. If music was taken out of the equasion, as well as not considering the turbocharger, I wonder how they would fair.

It's been my opinion that SVS has always focused on subs for HT first and foremost, then got some recognition with their 10" boxed sub for music. HSU was always known for better musical reproduction, but always playing catchup to SVS in the lowest Hz areas. I think HSU caught them with HT, but at a huge cost - the turbo charger which I just can't swallow. If they could incorporate that design inside the box, it would be a home run. Outside the box, I think it may be costing them sales. And as far as dual separate subs go, how many have room for two over sized boxes in their family rooms? Dedicated theater room - yes, but for those who are limited on space, one needs to decide if they want a HT/music sub, or dedicated HT. You guys with huge rooms and are able to run dual subs, that is definitely the way to go - as long as you can propertly set them up.

VERY VERY well written and very informative. I had a feeling someone would comment on the cyclinder design and how it is against the boxed design....

For me I'd just stack the PB-12NSD's so placement and looks are no issue at all.

Both Craig and Ed Mullen have said that 2 PB-12NSD's would be equal to, if not better than, 1 PB-12/+2. Ed stated "most people would have a very hard time telling the difference between 2 stacked PB-12's and 1 PB-12/+2). PLUS the front firing design is a newer supposedly better design now. AND as far as money is concerned the Dual PB-12's is a Better option for me.

The turbo's would be harder to use colocated because of the side firing woofer. If I wanted the RIGHT next to each other 1 sub would be firing right against the other....probably not a good idea. (Cant stack the Turbo's because of the TURBO Unit).

So NOWWWWWWW that leaves me to contemplate this

Dual stacked PB-12NSDs (I already own 1 PB-12)
vs
Dual Stacked VTF-3.3s w/o turbo
vs
1 single VTF-3.3 with turbo
vs
1 single VTF-HO with turbo

So which is going to give me what I'm so desiring.....the best LOW RESPONSE along with the best mid/high response..

(Disclaimer--I do not care about MUSIC at all........99% HT use for the subs)

Going the HSU route will force me to sell my PB-12, possible lose out on some money, and actually have to spend at least an extra $200 in shipipng for the HSU product. SVS shipping is free because I live so close I can just pick up the subs)

Thoughts, comments, opinions.....(craig knows I'd love to hear from him since he is "the man")

ps.............I love this forum and all of the members here are the best around!!!! :)

cschang

01-18-07, 08:13 PM

The cylinders, as I said before, don't have the same impact and slam as do the dual Plus/2 and Ultra/2's. I am not a big fan of the cylinders - there was no comparison IMO between the two. The MK3 IMO is the better HT sub over the PC-Ultra.

Do you have the link? I haven't read it. A lot would depend on the size of the room, the distance to the sub, and the type of tone he was using.
It is the current issue of Sensible Sound that is on the newstands now.

Understood, duals do have more to offer. The VTF-3MK3 at $699 vs dual anything, if that's what it takes, would be interesting.

cschang

01-18-07, 08:16 PM

So which is going to give me what I'm so desiring.....the best LOW RESPONSE along with the best mid/high response..
Any interest in an MBM-12? If not, I'd say dual VTF-3mk3's for the best bang for the buck.

But since you have a PB-12NSD....just get another one. You will be happy in any case. You're just doing all the what if scenarios....and that will drive you crazy. :)

thompson12

01-18-07, 08:30 PM

Does this mean I will be getting a lot of new hats ? Some nice golf hats would be perfect. :cool:
I think HSU owes you one I put your name on my order form in the comments area
thanks again

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 08:33 PM

Any interest in an MBM-12? If not, I'd say dual VTF-3mk3's for the best bang for the buck.

But since you have a PB-12NSD....just get another one. You will be happy in any case. You're just doing all the what if scenarios....and that will drive you crazy. :)

100% interested in the MBM....that is def going to be part of my system.....I think it should be part of all systems to be honest.

I'm already driving myself crazy...LOL

Just trying to get the bass that seems to be popping up more and more in movies........10-20hz

1-2 years ago people were really only talking 20hz-30hz being the real deal of LFE.

NOW I listen to movies and look at graphs of scenes showing 5-10-15hz bass that is important to the actual sound of that scene.

That is the reason I've been fretting over my PB-12 and talkign about the 3.3 turbo, the HO-Turbo, and the 16-46PC+.....all because they can DIG that deep....

cschang

01-18-07, 08:51 PM

The amount of movies with bass that low is still very small.....and it is not going to grow fast. Theaters can not handle it.

Today's standard drivers will always strain that low as well, what you want is something like what Eminent Technologies has developed when it is more affordable.
http://www.rotarywoofer.com/index.htm

I went to that demo in Vegas....OH MY!!!!

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 08:56 PM

craigsub

01-18-07, 08:58 PM

VERY VERY well written and very informative. I had a feeling someone would comment on the cyclinder design and how it is against the boxed design....

For me I'd just stack the PB-12NSD's so placement and looks are no issue at all.

Both Craig and Ed Mullen have said that 2 PB-12NSD's would be equal to, if not better than, 1 PB-12/+2. Ed stated "most people would have a very hard time telling the difference between 2 stacked PB-12's and 1 PB-12/+2). PLUS the front firing design is a newer supposedly better design now. AND as far as money is concerned the Dual PB-12's is a Better option for me.

The turbo's would be harder to use colocated because of the side firing woofer. If I wanted the RIGHT next to each other 1 sub would be firing right against the other....probably not a good idea. (Cant stack the Turbo's because of the TURBO Unit).

So NOWWWWWWW that leaves me to contemplate this

Dual stacked PB-12NSDs (I already own 1 PB-12)
vs
Dual Stacked VTF-3.3s w/o turbo
vs
1 single VTF-3.3 with turbo
vs
1 single VTF-HO with turbo

So which is going to give me what I'm so desiring.....the best LOW RESPONSE along with the best mid/high response..

(Disclaimer--I do not care about MUSIC at all........99% HT use for the subs)

Going the HSU route will force me to sell my PB-12, possible lose out on some money, and actually have to spend at least an extra $200 in shipipng for the HSU product. SVS shipping is free because I live so close I can just pick up the subs)

Thoughts, comments, opinions.....(craig knows I'd love to hear from him since he is "the man")

ps.............I love this forum and all of the members here are the best around!!!! :)

You COULD always wait and check out the new Ultra ... if it delivers better linearity AND an extra 4.5 - 6 dB over the current Ultra, it looks like a killer design.

What seems to be lost in the shuffle here is the fact that the old Ultra single driver platform outperformed the dual driver Plus in overall performance.

The new Ultra has the potential to be near (and for clarity, this means as in a little better or worse ... ) the performance of the HO Equipped Hsu in a more elegant package (based on the pics on SVS's site).

pbc

01-18-07, 09:23 PM

As I posted on the HSU forum, if they just brought back that Rosewood with the gloss black caps they would have a killer package. I thought that sub looked great!

Legairre

01-18-07, 09:57 PM

The new Ultra has the potential to be near (and for clarity, this means as in a little better or worse ... ) the performance of the HO Equipped Hsu in a more elegant package (based on the pics on SVS's site).Don't forget the ultra would also cost him at least $300 more than the HO w/turbo, if cost even matters to him.

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 10:07 PM

Don't forget the ultra would also cost him at least $300 more than the HO w/turbo, if cost even matters to him.

Craig you bring up a point with the 13.5 and I have been really thinking about that option too. Just wasn't sure if a SINGLE sub was the route to go....

Cost DOES matter.

When all is said and done the MOST I can afford to spend on my subwoofer(s) is about $1200-$1400....I have so many things I want to do with my house (like finish the basement into the theater, that I have to save up some cash at some point....

So basically its

Dual $600-$700 Subwoofers --- PB-12NSD's, VTF 3.3's

or

ONE KILLER subwoofer --- like the 13.5 Inch Ultra due out very soon...

craigsub

01-18-07, 10:12 PM

bgillyjcu

01-18-07, 10:16 PM

The Old Ultra was $1200 ... and the only mention of price was "a small increase" ... since you can drive to get it ... if the small increase is $100-$200, you are golden.

The new Ultra should easily out do a pair of PB12-NSD's.

I am anxious to test on against the VTF-3 HO, along with the other high end subs.

Craig I'm drooling right now.....

"The Ultra should easily out do a pair for Pb12-nsd's".........1 sub that can do what TWO can do........thats really crazy!

I would think the new Ultra would have to beat the VFT-3HO with and without turbo....
The 13.5 inch woofer, like you said, is 27% larger than the 12inch......that has to do SOMETHING special in terms of extention and output :)

If all of this is the case I'll just hold on to my PB-12nsd for now, and I might be an ultra box owner as soon as you do some testing!!!!! :)

jpmst3

01-18-07, 10:26 PM

Craig I'm drooling right now.....

"The Ultra should easily out do a pair for Pb12-nsd's".........1 sub that can do what TWO can do........thats really crazy!

I would think the new Ultra would have to beat the VFT-3HO with and without turbo....
The 13.5 inch woofer, like you said, is 27% larger than the 12inch......that has to do SOMETHING special in terms of extention and output :)

If all of this is the case I'll just hold on to my PB-12nsd for now, and I might be an ultra box owner as soon as you do some testing!!!!! :)

You can guarantee the new Ultra-13 will be outperforming the VTF in any form. The only question is SQ. SQ is what everything is hinging on...

You would be much better off with one overly capable sub rather than two "good" ones, that is unless you are using two for smoother or response or other placement issues.

rossandwendy

01-18-07, 10:48 PM

Craig I'm drooling right now.....

"The Ultra should easily out do a pair for Pb12-nsd's".........1 sub that can do what TWO can do........thats really crazy!

I would think the new Ultra would have to beat the VFT-3HO with and without turbo....
The 13.5 inch woofer, like you said, is 27% larger than the 12inch......that has to do SOMETHING special in terms of extention and output :)

If all of this is the case I'll just hold on to my PB-12nsd for now, and I might be an ultra box owner as soon as you do some testing!!!!! :)

bgillyjcu, I read that the new Ultra 13.5" will have a choice of 3 tunes - 20hz, 15hz, and - I know you will love this one - 10hz!

Ddavidson

01-18-07, 11:46 PM

You can guarantee the new Ultra-13 will be outperforming the VTF in any form. The only question is SQ. SQ is what everything is hinging on...

Theory and speculation is one thing but real world listening is another. Much like the difference between a car being capable of 180mph vs one that can do 200mph, the 20mph can be negligated if it cant brake and handle at such speed.

In audio reproduction its about the whole package not just a few specs which is why direct comparison listening tests are the only way you can be 100% positive on what is the best sounding/performing package.

Unless your into spl drag racing (bragging rights) the fact is you are buying a new subwoofer to "listen to audio" ...... what graphs and numbers say certainly helps you get a list together of potential candidates together, but at the end of the day by directly comparing those candidates you get to hear, feel and experience the real world sound quality/performance differences in your own listening room.

For many people who have taken the time (and cost involved) to compare subwoofers it becomes evident that there are enormous SQ differences in competing subwoofers that have very similar measurements.

Theory is fine from a discussion point of view but comparing and listening tells you the whole story.

Ddavidson

JimP

01-19-07, 02:40 AM

craigsub

01-19-07, 07:05 AM

Craigsub, is the thread to which you referred the abovenoted?

That's the one. Bring a snack ... :)

bgillyjcu

01-19-07, 07:20 AM

bgillyjcu, I read that the new Ultra 13.5" will have a choice of 3 tunes - 20hz, 15hz, and - I know you will love this one - 10hz!

I saw that is has 15 and 10hz mode.

I am sure that even with the loss in headroom in those Low settings, the space that I'm putting it in would be the right size that I probably wouldn't need 2 of those subs.

It is def. going to get interesting here over the next couple months... :)

craigsub

01-19-07, 07:23 AM

The VTF-2 Mark III is in the system, and memories of the VTF-3.2 came back in spades. It is one of the best subs in the $700 arena ... but for $469 ... WOW.

Of course, it will get the same treatment as all the other subs.

I forgot to add the PB10 to the list ... 83 points. It is a tremendous home theater subwoofer value, and, as everyone knows, bulletproof.

This weekend, the Plus/2 will get the tweak I did 3 years ago with my first plus/2 - the Base Plate removed and run as a forward firing sub.

JimP

01-19-07, 07:43 AM

G-star

01-19-07, 08:10 AM

I forgot to add the PB10 to the list ... 83 points. It is a tremendous home theater subwoofer value, and, as everyone knows, bulletproof.

craig, any qualitative comments you might want to add about the performance of the PB-10? those of us w/o the $$$ to pony up for some of the higher end stuff are quite interested in your opinions about these better entry level subs. :)

Buckeyefan

01-19-07, 08:37 AM

This weekend, the Plus/2 will get the tweak I did 3 years ago with my first plus/2 - the Base Plate removed and run as a forward firing sub.

Craig, are those the new 12.3 drivers in your Plus/2?

One other question - what is the size (cu ft/dimensions) of your room. I think a lot of guys would be impressed to see these smaller single 12" drivers are capable of filling larger rooms.

craigsub

01-19-07, 09:28 AM

All right I will read it to see what you are doing in these tests. Before I do so, are there any affiliations, business interests, relationships, etc I should know about? Things that could affect matters. That is important to know too.

Sherlock, you got me. I am actually on the board of directors for every subwoofer company being represented. :p

Please, Lighten up. These are subwoofers, not MRI machines. I bought them all. I was ASKED to put together a rating system by a bunch of guys who cannot do a side by side.

If the results here and on AV123 are helpful, great. If not, that is cool, too.

I am looking into doing some things "home theater" in the future, but currently have no affiliations with anyone.

jakeman

01-19-07, 09:36 AM

craigsub,

When you get around to it, you might want to try the same tweak on the HSU MBM-12 with the port turned down and the driver facing forward.

Certainly not how they designed it, but I find resulting sound subjectively tighter and more accurate for the mid bass range.

Interesting tweak Jim for that module. You must be sensing noise or artifacts from the port. Have you tried plugging the port completely? I do that regularly depending on listening material with deep range floorstanders and it makes a noticeable difference in the mid-bass .

ssabripo

01-19-07, 09:41 AM

.....
What seems to be lost in the shuffle here is the fact that the old Ultra single driver platform outperformed the dual driver Plus in overall performance....
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

I don't know why statements like this always get missed......people are sooooo consumed in numbers and theoreticals, etc, and always always seem to forget what has the better sound quality!

The Plus/2 with the 12.3 drivers is and will remain the "sweet spot" of the lineup, but in terms of pure sound quality, the Ultra is still the flagship.

craigsub

01-19-07, 09:51 AM

craig, any qualitative comments you might want to add about the performance of the PB-10? those of us w/o the $$$ to pony up for some of the higher end stuff are quite interested in your opinions about these better entry level subs. :)

When you look at the PB10, you really do need to remember this subwoofer is regularly available for $379 from "B" stock. An area of the PB10 which is overlooked is just how bulletproof it really is. $379 is a VERY appealing number for an entry level sub, which often means a somewhat "rookie" user.

You can try to, and will fail, to hurt the PB-10 regardless what you throw at it. For an inexperienced subwoofer user, that is a very good thing. No worries about "I tried the Pods emerge scene @ 110 dB and blew up my subwoofer" here.

It plays very deep, is pretty decent on music, and the compromises made in its design were excellent compromises. The PB12, for example, is better on music. It also hits deeper. In "my world", the $170 difference (whether it is "B" stock or "A" stock, it is $170.) is pretty minor - but it is really 45% more $$$$ for a "B" stock PB12 than a PB10.

To answer your question more directly ... the PB10 does nothing that sounds "BAD", ever. It is not quite as articulate or visceral as its more expensive competition, but it is still very good.

craigsub

01-19-07, 09:56 AM

Craig, are those the new 12.3 drivers in your Plus/2?

One other question - what is the size (cu ft/dimensions) of your room. I think a lot of guys would be impressed to see these smaller single 12" drivers are capable of filling larger rooms.

It is the 12.3 driver - and the rooms involved are two sealed rooms:

1. 25x21x8.5 feet
2. 44x14x7 feet (it "plays smaller" due to a stairwell which "cuts" the room into a 1/3 rd : 2/3 rd arrangement)

And one open room:

27x24 with vaulted ceilings and openings into a 32x28 foot kitchen.

craigsub

01-19-07, 09:59 AM

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

I don't know why statements like this always get missed......people are sooooo consumed in numbers and theoreticals, etc, and always always seem to forget what has the better sound quality!

The Plus/2 with the 12.3 drivers is and will remain the "sweet spot" of the lineup, but in terms of pure sound quality, the Ultra is still the flagship.

You are welcome ... This now 5 year old driver is still extremely competitive with the latest offerings from other companies.

The new Ultra looks like a pretty large step forward for SVS. While the dual driver is not coming out until year's end, a pair of them in a sealed arrangement should be around $4500 ... Quad long throw 13.5 inch drivers in a sealed arrangement ?

We need to get Ed Mullen out some night, ply him with some single malt, and get the T/S parameters on this driver ... :D

ssabripo

01-19-07, 10:17 AM

meh.....i'm too busy these days :o

i can't even find time to break away from the house and work on my twins, much less take anyone for drinks and such. :(

the only time I had some free time was at CES! had dinner one evening with deon Bearden and Thilo, and Tom Nouissaine........and another night just some sushi and some drinks with Mark. Cool fellas.

I wish Ed was around so I could meet him too, but I hear he is tall as mollases, so my little short @ss would look goofy next to him! :p

bgillyjcu

01-19-07, 10:20 AM

You are welcome ... This now 5 year old driver is still extremely competitive with the latest offerings from other companies.

The new Ultra looks like a pretty large step forward for SVS. While the dual driver is not coming out until year's end, a pair of them in a sealed arrangement should be around $4500 ... Quad long throw 13.5 inch drivers in a sealed arrangement ?

We need to get Ed Mullen out some night, ply him with some single malt, and get the T/S parameters on this driver ... :D

I'm in for drinks any time :) Guinness is my prefered drink :D

Craig.....any idea if we can actually get a testing day at your place. I for one would love to spend a day playing various scenes from movies just to see how one subwoofer does vs another. I'm sure that any one that lives within a reasonable distance of Erie PA would be in for that kind of learning experience as well!!! :cool:

craigsub

01-19-07, 10:29 AM

I'm in for drinks any time :) Guinness is my prefered drink :D

Craig.....any idea if we can actually get a testing day at your place. I for one would love to spend a day playing various scenes from movies just to see how one subwoofer does vs another. I'm sure that any one that lives within a reasonable distance of Erie PA would be in for that kind of learning experience as well!!! :cool:

That could be a lot of fun ... maybe early spring, around the first of April. By then, we should be looking at no worse than guys driving through rain.

The right size for something like this would be about 6 guys. You each could listen to a subwoofer on various scenes for a half hour or so, and draw your own conclusions.

The hard part of something like this is we can typically take 7-10 nights of 3-4 hours per night. But a more relaxed, fun day with subwoofers and all the other stuff we have, could be pretty cool.

bgillyjcu

01-19-07, 10:33 AM

Seriously...right now at 10:31 in Shaker Heights on the East Side of Cleveland it is snowing so hard I literally cannot see the building that is no more than 50 yards away.......

I really hope this doesn't keep up!!!!!!!!!!

I'd love to be included in that 6 man group of a relaxed, fun day of subwoofer listening.

I might not be that old (27) and super experienced like you are, but we all have to learn somewhere and I'd love to be involved in this!!!!! :)

craigsub

01-19-07, 11:43 AM

I might not be that old (27) and super experienced like you are, but we all have to learn somewhere and I'd love to be involved in this!!!!! :)

At least you still have your hearing and don't consider consider Viagra ads to be a documentary ... :D

JimP

01-19-07, 11:54 AM

..nor stutter...:)

JEFFREY GTS

01-19-07, 01:07 PM

VERY VERY well written and very informative. I had a feeling someone would comment on the cyclinder design and how it is against the boxed design....

For me I'd just stack the PB-12NSD's so placement and looks are no issue at all.

Both Craig and Ed Mullen have said that 2 PB-12NSD's would be equal to, if not better than, 1 PB-12/+2. Ed stated "most people would have a very hard time telling the difference between 2 stacked PB-12's and 1 PB-12/+2). PLUS the front firing design is a newer supposedly better design now. AND as far as money is concerned the Dual PB-12's is a Better option for me.

The turbo's would be harder to use colocated because of the side firing woofer. If I wanted the RIGHT next to each other 1 sub would be firing right against the other....probably not a good idea. (Cant stack the Turbo's because of the TURBO Unit).

So NOWWWWWWW that leaves me to contemplate this

Dual stacked PB-12NSDs (I already own 1 PB-12)
vs
Dual Stacked VTF-3.3s w/o turbo
vs
1 single VTF-3.3 with turbo
vs
1 single VTF-HO with turbo

So which is going to give me what I'm so desiring.....the best LOW RESPONSE along with the best mid/high response..

(Disclaimer--I do not care about MUSIC at all........99% HT use for the subs)

Going the HSU route will force me to sell my PB-12, possible lose out on some money, and actually have to spend at least an extra $200 in shipipng for the HSU product. SVS shipping is free because I live so close I can just pick up the subs)

Thoughts, comments, opinions.....(craig knows I'd love to hear from him since he is "the man")

ps.............I love this forum and all of the members here are the best around!!!! :)

The way I look at it is this. The PB12-NSD is an excellent sub. You already have one as it is, so financially, it would be smart if you just bought another one and the MBM and called it a day. I know if I were in your boat, that is what I would do. I was watching both Star Wars EP1 & 3 last night and was absolutely blown away by how good my PB12-NSD sounded. I have watched the Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Darth Maul fight scene in EP1 so many times and it sounded completely different and so much better than I have ever heard. I can imagine how good it would sound adding another one and the MBM. I was feeling and hearing very low frequencies that I have never experienced before. I then sat there and thought to myself, really, how much more and how much lower do I really need???? My answer, I really don't need anything else.

JEFFREY GTS

01-19-07, 01:17 PM

Any interest in an MBM-12? If not, I'd say dual VTF-3mk3's for the best bang for the buck.

But since you have a PB-12NSD....just get another one. You will be happy in any case. You're just doing all the what if scenarios....and that will drive you crazy. :)

I totally agree.
1. Since you already have one PB12-NSD...just get another one. You will save yourself the hassle of trying to sell your current one and you will save yourself a lot of money.
2. You are going to be very happy with two PB12's.
3. If you also add the MBM with dual PB12's, get out of here, that will be a ridiculous set up.
4. Like cschang said, all of the what if scenarios are going to drive us nuts. There is always going to be something bigger and better coming out, that's just the way it is. I am almost positive that I am keeping my SVS, the only reason I would upgrade is because I am still in my 45 day window, if I had to try to sell it, I wouldn't even be considering an upgrade.

Kevin12586

01-19-07, 01:18 PM

craigsub

01-19-07, 01:23 PM

Craig, any idea when we can see the pod scene from WOTW graphed for the new subs you just added, I am curious to see how the HSU 3.3 compares to the HO. I am strictly an HT guy, maybe 1% music if that, and I want my next sub to hit as deep and clean as possible for my budget which is why I am still leaning for the HO over the 3.3, but I am curious to see the scene plotted.

Based on my above statements, since you have the ability to hear them side by side, would you consider the HO and MBM a better combination for me over the 3.3 and MBM? My space is about 6000 cuft.

The WOTW scenes will all be re-created in our basement theater room, and will be done in the near future.

The older graphs were done in the upstairs theater room, and since we now have all the subs except the Fathom 113 in the basement, it will be pretty easy to run the test there.

Kevin12586

01-19-07, 01:40 PM

Thanks Craig, would you care to comment about the second part of my reply?

If not, no problem :)

craigsub

01-19-07, 02:08 PM

Thanks Craig, would you care to comment about the second part of my reply?

If not, no problem :)

I would grab the HO/MBM combination for the extra $250 anytime, if the $$$$ difference is not a problem.

craigsub

01-19-07, 02:14 PM

Craig, I read a good bit of that thread you suggested at AV123.

I'm sorry but I am *quite concerned* about your tests and reviews. For a variety of reasons.

You are sorry, but also concerned. And for a variety of reasons. Here is an idea, open a new thread, and list specifically what your "concerns" are.

If you are confused by the word "specifics", please let me know. This cryptic stuff is getting boring.

new27

01-19-07, 02:25 PM

He's obviously a troll and a simpleton Craig, pay him no mind

craigsub

01-19-07, 02:30 PM

He's obviously a troll and a simpleton Craig, pay him no mind

Agreed, thus the request for his opening his own thread with the specifics. As is usually the case, 99.99 % of people want to contribute. Then we have the exception.

rossandwendy

01-19-07, 02:39 PM

He's obviously a troll and a simpleton Craig, pay him no mind

This is pretty funny, same thing has been happening at the HSU forum - new members who just joined a few days ago, have no posting history, but proclaiming to be "very experienced" are crawling out of the woodwork and attempting to cast doubt on all aspects of HSU's product performance, business practices, and now Craigsub's reviews - of course it has nothing to do with the fact that the new HSU models are ranking so highly by a variety of listeners does it??? :p

craigsub

01-19-07, 03:09 PM

Craig, I don't understand why you'd suggest having such a discussion in a new thread. It's quite relevant and on topic in this one. As far as cryptic goes I have asked for more information on your review process. It's just not clear to me at all. A bunch of alarms have gone off. First when I read this thread, and more when I read the one you asked me to read.

A suggestion. Why don't you clarify your review and test methodology? Then, the text can be referred to by you and by others in the future. It would increase your credibility if it passes "peer review".

Let us look at some of your questions so far.

1. What is the "Craigsub" test methodology, in detail?

2. Can you describe your SPL measurement assumptions? And let's see some DBT information, scorecards and so forth. So far it sounds kinda subjective and hard to repeat by others.

3. Not really, just trying to understand what is being done here. I'll look over the thread to which Craigsub referred me. I'm pretty experienced in such matters.

So far I cannot get to that forum, except to the main page.

4. All right I will read it to see what you are doing in these tests. Before I do so, are there any affiliations, business interests, relationships, etc I should know about? Things that could affect matters. That is important to know too.

5. Craig, I read a good bit of that thread you suggested at AV123.

I'm sorry but I am *quite concerned* about your subwoofer tests and reviews. For a variety of reasons.

Most of the people participating in this thread know my name, where I live and have seen pics of the equipment. Several members of this forum have been to my home.

So ... since you have decided to weigh in here with nothing but negatives, let us look at what we know about you.

1. You joined 16 days ago.
2. You have 25 posts.
3. We have no clue where you live, nor do we know anything about your equipment.

In the face of ALL this, we are to accept that you are, in your own words, "pretty experienced in such matters", and qualified to perform a "peer review".

This thread is for people who want to discuss subwoofers. If you wish to discuss other matters, then open a new thread, and leave this thread alone.

RMK!

01-19-07, 03:14 PM

Craig, I don't understand why you'd suggest having such a discussion in a new thread. It's quite relevant and on topic right here in this one is my view. As far as cryptic goes I have asked for more information on your review process. It's just not clear to me at all. A bunch of alarms have gone off. First when I read this thread, and more when I read the vague and lengthy one you asked me to read.

A suggestion. Why don't you clarify your review and test methodology? Post a clear, considered desription with lots of backup detail. As questions get asked and ideas forwarded, you can then revise the text as required so it is up to date. Instead of spread out over hundreds of posts in multiple forums. Then, the text can be referred to by you and by others in the future. It would increase your credibility if it passes "peer review". You should also have a disclosure section IMO as there has been concerns brought up in those regards in the past.

You seem to be a person with at least average comprehension skills. Why don't you read this thread? The information you have requested is contained herein and unless you have some disability (other than a tendency to be indolent) you will find your answers and be all the better for the process.

msmith_JL

01-19-07, 03:26 PM

Well, I think Craig is doing a great job! :)

Matt34

01-19-07, 03:58 PM

That is part of why it is very important that alliances, allegiances, affiliations, motivations and so forth are disclosed if credibility as a subwoofer reviewer is considered desireable.

....said the troll.

cschang

01-19-07, 04:06 PM

I have had my run ins with Craig as well....right Craig? :) We have disagreed in the past, and I am sure we will disagree again.

Like anybody, you take what you want from his findings, just like posts from anybody else.

What I don't like about the threads......they get too long and if you stop reading them for any period of time, you have a lot of catching up to do.

rockemsockem

01-19-07, 04:17 PM

I went and read some of those threads at the HSU forums, and the "Made in China" stuff. That's pretty sad IMO, in regards to the HSU bashing, especially if it is coming from a competitor.

Legairre

01-19-07, 04:22 PM

I went and read some of those threads at the HSU forums, and the "Made in China" stuff. That's pretty sad IMO, in regards to the HSU bashing, especially if it is coming from a competitor.And it's so obvious when you get a new poster with 1 post casting doubt and then you never hear from him again. Funny how these guys pose the question and then run for the hills. As Hsu sales have gone up all of a sudden these unknown sub experts started appearing to cast doubt and then disappearing.

new27

01-19-07, 04:23 PM

sjmarcy, are you slow? The info you're supposedly looking for is within the two threads
and Craig is not a professional reviewer.

actually, just piss off

speeeedy

01-19-07, 04:24 PM

I was wondering if anyone on hear has been able to test the Kef psw 4000. I was wanted to know how it would compare to some of these other subs that are so often being mention on hear. Thanks!

craigsub

01-19-07, 04:31 PM

I was wondering if anyone on hear has been able to test the Kef psw 4000. I was wanted to know how it would compare to some of these other subs that are so often being mention on hear. Thanks!

speeeedy - Hopefully someone who has heard the psw-4000 can chime in for you. I have not heard it.

Mozvz

01-19-07, 04:37 PM

One of the problems with some of the responses on the threads is unless someone has a history, it's difficult to distinguish the posters intentions. The China thread on Hsu's forum was over the top no doubt, but the people who post there on a regular basis (not me) can get a feel for what is transpiring.

I don't think Craig needs anyone to defend him as we all know. He can surely take care of himself.

However, personally i have tremendous respect for his work as he spends countless hours posting, testing, spending his own money (at a loss I assume) in achieving these results that he shares with us. Are his tests the Bible of subs? NO.

It's his subjective testing and if someone has an issue with it, then they don't have to read his posts. He's been challenged before, but I think there are some issues if they diffuse and distort the topic, you have to take them off line. That's just my opinion.

JEFFREY GTS

01-19-07, 04:46 PM

And it's so obvious when you get a new poster with 1 post casting doubt and then you never hear from him again. Funny how these guys pose the question and then run for the hills. As Hsu sales have gone up all of a sudden these unknown sub experts started appearing to cast doubt and then disappearing.

I guess what I don't understand is why people even troll threads. Do they have nothing better to do? I mean why bash people and products, it makes no sense to me. A while back, I spent a lot of time listening to some new tower speakers and writing up a review on them. I had a guy that trolled my thread and basically called me everything from a liar to the guy who actually owned the company of that particular speaker. It was actually quite comical. Anyway, Craig is spending a lot of time and effort to give us his opinions and feedback on various subwoofers. So kudos to you, I appreciate your efforts and value your opinion. Keep up the good work! :)

rossandwendy

01-19-07, 05:08 PM

I went and read some of those threads at the HSU forums, and the "Made in China" stuff. That's pretty sad IMO, in regards to the HSU bashing, especially if it is coming from a competitor.

rockemsockem, I especially appreciate this comment coming from you since you are an SVS owner (correct me if I'm wrong), it shows an unbiased open mind. I currently still own a PB12NSD as well as a new HSU and both ae very solid companies with great service and some very fine products. It is really sad when the competiveness between them leads to forum trolls and bashing, and I truly hope neither company is responsible for some of these posts that are popping up, but unfortunately I suspect otherwise at least in certain cases. It may be part of the marketing strategy for some folks.

In this thread it is clear to me (my intuition anyway) that someone has arrived with an agenda of their own - to plant doubt/discredit Craigsub's ratings, and it is most likely someone who has a vested interest in a company that did not rank as high as they wished...