chengbin, maybe that is correct, but if so, wouldnt manufacturers be making 10 port designs and all that.. I mean if you can get 30db more if you make 10 ports rather than 1 why not?
I'm pretty sure port noise would play into that as well but it seems odd that by adding a port you'd get 3db extra..

you guys are forgetting port length. the more port area you have, the more port length you need for the same frequency.

it's a tradeoff really ... you want more port area to minimize port chuffing, but in increasing port area, you need a longer port, if you have a longer port, you need a bigger enclosure.

I believe port resonance becomes more of an issue as length increases too.

you guys are forgetting port length. the more port area you have, the more port length you need for the same frequency.

it's a tradeoff really ... you want more port area to minimize port chuffing, but in increasing port area, you need a longer port, if you have a longer port, you need a bigger enclosure.

Can someone construct a flow chart to demonstrate how we got from subwoofers to South Park ? This may be the best thread jack yet ... :D I can't find Subwoofers on the map, but here is how you get from Erie to South Park.:D

Depart Erie
Take Ramp (LEFT) onto I-79 [Raymond P Shafer Hwy] for 5.4 miles
At exit 178B, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-90 for 77.3 miles
Take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-90 for 17.9 miles
At exit 170B, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-90 for 28.0 miles
*Toll road* Merge onto I-80 [I-90] for 278.0 miles
At exit 21, turn off onto Ramp for 0.6 miles
Keep RIGHT to stay on Ramp for 0.1 miles
Take Ramp (LEFT) onto I-80 [I-94] for 18.0 miles
Keep LEFT onto I-294 [I-80] for 5.0 miles
Keep RIGHT onto I-80 for 102.6 miles
Stay on I-80 for 42.6 miles
Take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-80 for 179.4 miles
Road name changes to I-35 [I-80] for 13.8 miles
Take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-80 for 119.5 miles
Merge onto I-29 [I-80] for 2.7 miles
Keep LEFT onto I-80 for 210.2 miles
Stay on I-80 for 142.7 miles
Keep RIGHT onto I-76 for 174.1 miles
At exit 12, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto US-85 for 0.4 miles
Turn LEFT (West) onto SR-44 [E 104th Ave] for 3.4 miles
Turn RIGHT (North) onto Fox Run Pky for 0.3 miles
Turn LEFT to stay on Fox Run Pky for 0.1 miles
Turn RIGHT (North-East) onto Kimblewyck Circle for 98 yards
Turn RIGHT (South) onto Local road(s) for 43 yards
Arrive South Park

SUMMARY
Driving distance: 1425.1 miles
Driving time: 20 hours, 54 minutes

Ok ... Someone get ManicMiner back here ... :D

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it true that if total port area stays the same, it's better to have more ports for more output. For example, a tri port enclosure would be 3dB louder at tuning frequency than a dual port enclosure if port area and enclosure are the same. Is this "theory" true?



Kind of like why my 16-46+ in native tune with 3 ports open sounds great on Pulse and maybe why the PB-13 in 15hz with only 2 ports open doesn't....

Agree or Disagree?

Kind of like why my 16-46+ in native tune with 3 ports open sounds great on Pulse and maybe why the PB-13 in 15hz with only 2 ports open doesn't....

Agree or Disagree?

I don't recall the PB-13 ever being tested on Pulse in 15hz tune, only in 20hz tune. I think it might do better in 15 hz tune than in 20hz because it brings the tuning under where most of the Pulse energy lies.

In Soviet Russia, subwoofers test you!

Some of you will get this - others not. It is a Slashdot reference.


:D:D:D

I am afraid Yakov Smirnoff was using that over a decade before Slashdot was even invented.

ok guys i have a question, i have about 600 dollars to spend and that wont change no matter how much i ask the bank to donate money to my checking account so don't tell me "for only ___ dollars more you can get this!"

My room is 18 feet x14 feet x8 feet so about 2000 cubic feet. I'm looking for a sub that is impressive in movies but will also work for a little music too. (i hate to say this but i listen to rap but not the crap on the radio,i also listen to lots of jazz)

The top of my list seems to be the best bang for my buck sub, the A5-350, but i wanted to know if i could be just as happy with a sub that was a little less expensive. i guess my question is, is this sub to much for my room and can i get away with a smaller one or not?

Hey Craig,

Did you hear anything on the MFW-15 yet? You should be one of the first to receive it. I wonder if this will score as well as the ED A5-350? I'm on the border between these two subs.

Later, Daman

lvcooks13 ... Another good choice is the Hsu VTF 2 Mark III, or an SVS PB10 NSD ... both companies regularly offer "B" stock, and either sub will sound terrific in your room.

daman ... I got an email that my sub is, in fact, in Colorado, awaiting final assembly. I hope to have news this week.

lvcooks13 ... Another good choice is the Hsu VTF 2 Mark III, or an SVS PB10 NSD ... both companies regularly offer "B" stock, and either sub will sound terrific in your room.

daman ... I got an email that my sub is, in fact, in Colorado, awaiting final assembly. I hope to have news this week.

Craig this is great news. I look forward to your review of this sub to see how the two Marks did with this sub. I await the BMF-1 for my room though.

What is the expected price range for the BMF-1?

What is the expected price range for the BMF-1?

Last I heard, about $2000.

First, let me also also thank Craig and Illika (?sp, Illka or Avtalks).

Unlike shopping for carrots, there is really no effective "free market", beyond the huge trade shows-that few of us buyers can get to. For most us, stereo and HiFi purchases are done once or maybe twice in a lifetime. The best some us can do is to demo a few subs at a local dealer or two-but at the store, not at home-where room factors are usually quite important. None of us can demo more than just 1 or 2, due to cost and/or logistics. This where high grade amateur (meaning non-paid) and professional (meaning paid) reviewers come in - just like Consumer Reports and car testing/rating.

One thing often not mentioned is the fact that all of us have somewhat differing auditory (hearing) abilities, even within a very wide range that can be considered normal (and yes, I did talk to an audiologist and ENT doctor about this). The same speaker, perhaps not depending on tweeking, may likely sound quite different to differing listeners for this reason alone.

I have just ordered some subs. Madison Amps M1 218s (2' x 2' x 4' box, dual 18" drivers per box, 2 boxes). Likely ugly as anything. However, WAF can be improved via creative carpentry and use of cloth, so as to make a sort of veneer and/or covering around them-you need not cover the entire sub. You could even make like a "picket fence" around the sub so air can easily circulate. Just because it ships ugly, doesn't mean it has to stay ugly. The veneers used on the commercial subs often cost $100-200 extra-and they look great on the net pics. Go to Home Depot or Lowe's, buy some nice wood and stain it/finish it yourself. You can leave a gap of several inches off the sub. For cloth, treat the sub like a table or pedestal to be covered.

The steps of the scientific method are to:

* Ask a Question
* Do Background Research
* Construct a Hypothesis
* Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
* Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
* Communicate Your Results

Craig and AVTalk do portions of this superbly! Das ist lekker! (OK, I just returned from Berlin). Merci bien! (I am in New Orleans).

However, as a doctor (and since I am an Associate Professor at Tulane Medical School), I also know that results should be reproducible. This means participants and lurkers should be able to add our results, if only to confirm those already posted. In order for us to do this in science and medicine, the specifics of the methodology used are written out in very painful detail. I am not asking that this part be done here. Gee, even I am not that anal. However, the idea of another thread where the data leading to the numbers is posted for review and additional commentary might be useful (regardless of whether the data is objective, ie SPL at 2m at 20HZ, or subjective, ie just sounds better to me).

It would seem to this occasional reader and poster that more of us could post our results. Also, by confirming the work of others, it would add more credence to the results. Perhaps a separate thread for methodology and the posting of results, including details of how numbers were arrived at could be considered, with or without graphs, as not all of us would have the same SW/HW. Opinions, advice, etc, could remain on this or similar threads. The manufacturers could also post their results into such a forum directly. Then confirmation by trusted forum members and others would be a very powerful means of assessing new equipment.

As I said, just my 2 cents.
Please keep this a positive forum. :)

One thing often not mentioned is the fact that all of us have somewhat differing auditory (hearing) abilities, even within a very wide range that can be considered normal (and yes, I did talk to an audiologist and ENT doctor about this). The same speaker, perhaps not depending on tweeking, may likely sound quite different to differing listeners for this reason alone.




I have a problem with this statement. Mainly because if our ears differ in how we perceive sound from speakers then we also perceive sound differently from live sources. To put it bluntly, if speakers sound different then so does live music. So the theory that because different folks' ears hear speakers differently is a reason that one speaker or another sounds better or more accurate just doesn't make sense. A loudspeaker is either accurate or it isn't. Individual human ears are not part of the equation.

However I do agree that the same speaker will sound different to every listener. But so will everything else.

Greg

I have a problem with this statement. Mainly because if our ears differ in how we perceive sound from speakers then we also perceive sound differently from live sources. To put it bluntly, if speakers sound different then so does live music. So the theory that because different folks' ears hear speakers differently is a reason that one speaker or another sounds better or more accurate just doesn't make sense. A loudspeaker is either accurate or it isn't. Individual human ears are not part of the equation.

However I do agree that the same speaker will sound different to every listener. But so will everything else.

Greg

I get your point, but when do people compare to a live source?

People on this forum almost never do that. They take their cd's and compare based on a couple of tracks they know well. I'd guess a large majority by blind falling prey to the grass is greener on the other side.

This is why, This is why, This is why the listener to listener rec'd is a little flawed.

Does it apply to bass though?

However I do agree that the same speaker will sound different to every listener. But so will everything else.

Greg

Actually much research and listening experiments over many years at the National Research Council have shown that most listeners experience sound the same way.

I don't know as much about speakers as most of you, but I do feel pretty qualified to talk about sound processing. Not only do individuals' ears perceive sound differently (this difference is mostly due to varying degrees of hearing damage across the population), but all of this information is subjectively processed by the brain.

I'm not talking about the subjective opinions you form after you hear the sound and reflect upon it. The actual initial processing and acoustic sensation can be subjectively modulated. This would be very difficult to accomplish with real world subjects, but theoretically someone with intense conviction and unique sensory control could listen to that Rocket Tyke at the bottom of the list and "hear" something more impressive than the A7-900.

I'm not trying to say anything bad about the rankings, which I absolutely love, and am referencing extensively in my own subwoofer search. Plus, you can't fool an SPL meter.

I don't know as much about speakers as most of you, but I do feel pretty qualified to talk about sound processing. Not only do individuals' ears perceive sound differently (this difference is mostly due to varying degrees of hearing damage across the population), but all of this information is subjectively processed by the brain.

I'm not talking about the subjective opinions you form after you hear the sound and reflect upon it. The actual initial processing and acoustic sensation can be subjectively modulated. This would be very difficult to accomplish with real world subjects, but theoretically someone with intense conviction and unique sensory control could listen to that Rocket Tyke at the bottom of the list and "hear" something more impressive than the A7-900.

I understand what you are saying and agree to some extent. I firmly believe that most people in this thread would not be able to distinguish the difference between a "craig's score" of 90 & 93. I am probably among them and I have a "good" ear. Heck Craig is unlikely to be able to completely duplicate his scores if starting from scratch.

That said I'm pretty confident that anyone coming off the street could hear/feel the difference between a 90 & 110 score subwoofer. Probably even between a 90 & 100. Thus I think you are seriously over estimating the variance between people and underestimating the physical impact of bass. It isn't just auditory. I would even be willing to bet a deaf person listening to music could rank subs in a similar order of preference.

I understand what you are saying a agree to some extent. I firmly believe that most people in this thread would not be able to distinguish the difference between a "craig's score" of 90 & 93. Heck craig may not be able to completely duplicate his scores if starting from scratch.

That said I'm pretty confident that anyone coming off the street could hear/feel the difference between a 90 & 110 score subwoofer. Probably even between a 90 & 100.

Thus I think you are seriously over estimating the variance between people and underestimating the physical impact of bass. It isn't just auditory.
I'm almost certain that everyone would notice the difference. At these levels and with this performance, the most likely source of variation is people off the street covering their ears, leaving the room, and saying they are all loud. :D

In terms of feeling as opposed to hearing, the same biases come into play.

I don't think that affects the numbers here at all. I just thought that variation was an interesting aside...only rare individuals can take over sensory processing that effectively. Hearing and touch are actually more consistent than vision and smell.

Would anyone be kind enough to direct me to a frequency response graph for the HSU MK3? I cannot look though all of this thread, thanks a ton.

Kind of like why my 16-46+ in native tune with 3 ports open sounds great on Pulse and maybe why the PB-13 in 15hz with only 2 ports open doesn't....

Agree or Disagree?
I am curious about this too. As I remember it, jakeman and others at their get together tested the PB13 in the 15Hz tune with Pulse, and it did not quite handle it that well. Though neither did the f113 from what I remember. But then again I remember his room being very well treated and rather large. I wonder how the 16Hz tuned 16-46+ would do with Pulse in his room?

MF

Kind of like why my 16-46+ in native tune with 3 ports open sounds great on Pulse and maybe why the PB-13 in 15hz with only 2 ports open doesn't....

My old DefTech PowerField sub needs a test. Last one was Pictures at an Exhibition on pipe organ. I wasn't disappointed. So...what is Pulse...something like Bass Ecstasy?

Greg

So...what is Pulse...something like Bass Ecstasy?

Greg

It's a movie.

It's a movie.

Ahh... this one?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0454919/

I think I'll stick with Mussorgsky on pipe organ, thanks.

Greg

yeah, it's not really a good movie. WoTW is a better movie with sub torturing bass (war of the worlds), in addition to Transformers, return of the king (actually all 3 have super bass parts).

michael

I don't know if this has been talked about earlier but this thread NEEDS to be stickied. With the read count nearing 400,000 and posts reaching ~5000, this thread seems to be the most read and most written thread in this sub-forum.

The information contained in this thread itself makes it worthy enough to be stickied. What say?

Valor review will be soon, can't wait to see what that 'little' sealed 15" can do.

I don't know if this has been talked about earlier but this thread NEEDS to be stickied. With the read count nearing 400,000 and posts reaching ~5000, this thread seems to be the most read and most written thread in this sub-forum.

The information contained in this thread itself makes it worthy enough to be stickied. What say?

for real

The Valor is going to be a tough sub to score. It is not an SPL monster, but it is pretty potent. I am loving it in our high end music system ... in fact, the music score is ready ... and since my son has 4 swim meets in the next 6 days, plus I have family due here Sunday, the Home Theater and measurements won't be done until the 23rd.

The provisional score for music is 47 ... the lack is handling pipe organ well in our larger rooms. Think almost DD-18-Maestro-Fathom 113 performance for $549.

And in a smaller room (under 2000 cubes), placed in a corner, the Valor is pure magic - The combo of the Valor and either the Dana 930's or Salk SongTowers is astonishing.

In our high end theater, this 2.1 system hits 20 Hz easily, and for $2100-$2200 ? It is amazing.

Craig,
I know you're busy. I checked out Legacy audio's website and talked to Jeff and the new driver and amp for the Lf extreme is about ready or maybe ready for shipping. Just thought I would update you.
Ryan

I would like to know how much of a performance hit it is going from a Castle to a Caliber. Has anyone heard the Caliber yet?

Craig, thanks for that. 47 is a good score, but if spl is for lack of a better term lacking, then the overall score will be lower than I and many had anticipated.
Good luck with that schedule!

Craig, thanks for that. 47 is a good score, but if spl is for lack of a better term lacking, then the overall score will be lower than I and many had anticipated.
Good luck with that schedule!Whatever the final score will be, think what Craig's comparing it to, Velo, JL, Maestro. It's a sealed 15" with a 350w amp for $550. It's a hell of an acheivement even to be mentioned in the same sentence...at least that's what I'm reading from his comments.

Ron is correct .. I am listening to the Valor with pretty high resolution speakers and a terrific front end, and the sub it reminds me of the most is the Fathom 112, which was previously in that room.

The next step is to see how well it performs in a 4500 cubic foot, lossy room - the same one we have seen WOTW graphs for the Ultra-13, Conquest, Castle and A5-350.

craigsub,

Which room is your rating usually based on?

Jim ... The music score is usually done from the larger room, which is why the 47 score is provisional.

We will be doing a full round of listening tests in the larger room.

I was trying to get some basic info out for the guys who were asking for help now. :)

Hello Craig,


Thanks for your input on the Valor. I can not wait for Epiks new larger sealed sub designs.

rmlowz

One other update ... After getting the new driver, the Def Tech Trinity is definitely sounding better on music passages ... especially on the Steely Dan 2AN and the Stanley Clark-Pink Floyd ... etc ... its music score moves up to a 48.

I love this testing....the Castle seems like the HT monster for only $1000!

I just wish that we could test the 16-46+ from SVS...

I wonder how it stacks up to the rest of these subs...Especially from 15-30hz...

Hint, Hint Craig :D

Jim ... The music score is usually done from the larger room, which is why the 47 score is provisional.

We will be doing a full round of listening tests in the larger room.

I was trying to get some basic info out for the guys who were asking for help now. :)

Thanks for the provisional update...I'll be looking forward to your final review!

I am curious about this too. As I remember it, jakeman and others at their get together tested the PB13 in the 15Hz tune with Pulse, and it did not quite handle it that well. Though neither did the f113 from what I remember. But then again I remember his room being very well treated and rather large. I wonder how the 16Hz tuned 16-46+ would do with Pulse in his room?

MF


I replayed the infamous scene from PULSE last night and really PUSHED my system.

I managed 106-108db from my LP during the most intense DEEP pulse part. I think I had even more room because it sounded "felt" CLEAN and DEEP...

Then I played WOTW again and that part where the earth starts to turn and there is a POWERFUL note.....bottomed out my sub really quickly before I could hit PAUSE... I even adjusted the levels before playing this...took the sub down 3db and went 2db lower on volume....so really I played the sub 5db LOWER than the Pulse scene...

Thoughts???

Then I played WOTW again and that part where the earth starts to turn and there is a POWERFUL note.....bottomed out my sub really quickly before I could hit PAUSE... I even adjusted the levels before playing this...took the sub down 3db and went 2db lower on volume....so really I played the sub 5db LOWER than the Pulse scene...
The part when the earth starts to turn? Not sure exactly which part that is. The part that gets my sub to shutdown is when the ground implodes. If i have the level about -3 or so it just shuts off. The good thing is i've never heard the sub bottom out. My guess is the amp just can't handle it for whatever reason. Playing pulse at above referene level won't shutdown my sub though, and i haven't ever seen it shutdown on any other material except the WOTW scene..

I shut down my amp before on WOTW for about 5 seconds so I sold it and upgraded to a better amp, now it never shuts or bottoms. It may not be a power problem but a low impedence problem. I went from 685 watts to 250 watts but the 250 watt amp can drive any load and it never shuts down.

47 on music for the Valor? Would that not be the lowest music score on any of the sealed subs you've tested?

47 for the Valor is the lowest score for sealed but the lowest price for the 50 score is what $2,600? Hope it would sound better than a $600..

Didn't the UFW-12 score a 50 for music? (though is was a provisional score).

Jim

How much bigger is the castle compared to the PB13? Does the castle sound more "menacing" than the PB13 as well at moderate volumes?

47 for the Valor is the lowest score for sealed but the lowest price for the 50 score is what $2,600? Hope it would sound better than a $600..

A5-350? The A5-350 is a lot of sub for the money.

Castle is 26H x 18W x 26D and PB13U is 22H x 20.5W x 27D.

Didn't the UFW-12 score a 50 for music? (though is was a provisional score).

Jim

You're right forgot about that because it was so far down the list . $1k still makes the Valor a good buy. But the extra $$ for the Ufw would be worth it to me on looks alone.

Castle is 26H x 18W x 26D and PB13U is 22H x 20.5W x 27D.

http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/8442-Castle-vs-Ultra-13

you set me up, i had to.
Looks like they are pretty similarly sized with the extra height of the castle being evened out by the extra width and depth of the pb13u

My, the PB13 is actually a tinny bit bigger than the Castle.
Castle 26*18*26=12168
PB13 22*20.5*27=12177

You're right forgot about that because it was so far down the list . $1k still makes the Valor a good buy. But the extra $$ for the Ufw would be worth it to me on looks alone.


Valor - 1K ??
If you mean the Castle, is there really any comparison?

http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/8442-Castle-vs-Ultra-13

you set me up, i had to.
Looks like they are pretty similarly sized with the extra height of the castle being evened out by the extra width and depth of the pb13u

Dont forget that putting the grill on the Castle will add another inch, making it 27" deep. I am really torn over the Castle and the PB/PC Ultra, so much so that I am really procrastinating a purchase.

Wouldn't the SVS take the edge due to Variable Tuning, a built in PEQ, Room Comp...

Those surely make the sub more user and room friendly while still giving you great performance...

For me its a choice between the PC (which you can move with 1 person) or the PB which clearly takes 2 people to move around...

Friends are NOT always around when you want to move and test things...

Wouldn't the SVS take the edge due to Variable Tuning, a built in PEQ, Room Comp...

Those surely make the sub more user and room friendly while still giving you great performance...

But is it worth the extra cost? The PEQ and Room Comp can be done much better with a BFD. That leaves you with variable tuning....which isn't a big deal for many people.

Even if I'm given a chance to choose my sub again, I would still go with the PB13 despite it's $500 more. My parents and I listen to music more, and we like fidelity more. I also needed the PEQ on the PB13 to correct a peak. I like the "small" front size of the PB13 more (looks less obtrusive), and the sealed mode. Although I go to 15Hz mode when we watch movies. We were gonna go with the JL f113 because it sounded better and a lot smaller while still giving that thump when watching movies, but after we decided that the extra $3500 isn't worth it for that little bit better fidelity and smaller size.
r1dude57, if you don't care about looks and size, watch movies more, go with the Castle. But if you listen to music more, then go with the PB13.

Valor - 1K ??
If you mean the Castle, is there really any comparison?
No UFW 12 =1k which mean Valor is a better buy for sealed for sound in music

Even if I'm given a chance to choose my sub again, I would still go with the PB13 despite it's $500 more. My parents and I listen to music more, and we like fidelity more. I also needed the PEQ on the PB13 to correct a peak. I like the "small" front size of the PB13 more (looks less obtrusive), and the sealed mode. Although I go to 15Hz mode when we watch movies. We were gonna go with the JL f113 because it sounded better and a lot smaller while still giving that thump when watching movies, but after we decided that the extra $3500 isn't worth it for that little bit better fidelity and smaller size.
r1dude57, if you don't care about looks and size, watch movies more, go with the Castle. But if you listen to music more, then go with the PB13.


I'll just chime in to say that the different tuning options, the PEQ and the room compensation control can make a HUGE difference when it comes to music. I have a PB12-Plus, and if the 20hz option was the only choice I would have given it the boot as a music sub a long time ago. To me 16hz tune sounds good, but 12 even better. At the same time I have a friend that prefers the sound of the 20hz tune, so there is no golden truth.

All the different options with regard to tuning and roll off gets the sub a bit closer to being everything for everyone

One other update ... After getting the new driver, the Def Tech Trinity is definitely sounding better on music passages ... especially on the Steely Dan 2AN and the Stanley Clark-Pink Floyd ... etc ... its music score moves up to a 48.

craig,

thanks for the update...

just curious, is the steely dan red book or dvd-a?

The Valor is going to be a tough sub to score. It is not an SPL monster, but it is pretty potent. I am loving it in our high end music system ... in fact, the music score is ready ... and since my son has 4 swim meets in the next 6 days, plus I have family due here Sunday, the Home Theater and measurements won't be done until the 23rd.

The provisional score for music is 47 ... the lack is handling pipe organ well in our larger rooms. Think almost DD-18-Maestro-Fathom 113 performance for $549.

And in a smaller room (under 2000 cubes), placed in a corner, the Valor is pure magic - The combo of the Valor and either the Dana 930's or Salk SongTowers is astonishing.

In our high end theater, this 2.1 system hits 20 Hz easily, and for $2100-$2200 ? It is amazing.
Craig,

I just purchased the Valor and should have it hear next week. I'm also hoping to get the Salk SongTowers later next year. So your review is much appreciated.

One question I have though, did you use either the SMS-1 or the Behringer 24/96 to blend the Valor with the SongTowers or did it blend well enough that you didn't need extra calibration?

Thanks again.

But is it worth the extra cost? The PEQ and Room Comp can be done much better with a BFD. That leaves you with variable tuning....which isn't a big deal for many people.

What is a BFD? I'll look into it. My system will be used for 80% HT, 20% music. Essentially, they are the same size with the Castle being taller. I am looking for the most visceral feeling while watching movies that my 1500 bucks will allow, taking into consideration size and finish also.

BFD = Beringher Feedback Destroyer.

michael

Hello Craig,

I have seen your answer regarding the differences between Epik Castle and Tower and since I have a mid-size room (circa 2500 ft^3) what is the best pick between both ?

Your thread rocks !

Hello Craig,

I have seen your answer regarding the differences between Epik Castle and Tower and since I have a mid-size room (circa 2500 ft^3) what is the best pick between both ?


I can't answer for Craig, but for that size room, you'd probably be fine with a Knight or Caliber. In addition to Craig's opinion, your best option would be to discuss with Chad. (I have a Caliber in a 2700 cu. ft. room) Just my 2 cents.

tempus ... I doubt that most people would ever hear/feel a difference between a Castle and a Tower. The Castle's tuning point is alreay about 18 Hz .. in it can handle anything thrown at it with aplomb.

Your room, however, is small enough to easily accomodate the Tower.

It's $100. It's slightly lower tuning, with the necessary slightly less power in the upper teens/low 20's.

Pick either, and enjoy.

The Valor won't be finished until later this week ... we were gone from Friday afternoon until late last night, and my Dad is coming over to watch the Browns-Bills game today.

It's our first fun social gathering since my little sister passed (typing that still hurts)... and subwoofer testing is the last thing we are going to be doing.

I also have a lot of biz and holiday stuff this week ... so look for the Valor to be complete on Sunday, the 23rd.

Boy do these Epik subs look awesome, and from what i've read they sound awesome too. I'm in the market to upgrade my PSW650, and I am seriously considering the Epik Tower. Would the Tower be roughly equivalent or slightly better than the PB13-Ultra? I'm drooling over both and about to make the purchase in the next week or so.

Boy do these Epik subs look awesome, and from what i've read they sound awesome too. I'm in the market to upgrade my PSW650, and I am seriously considering the Epik Tower. Would the Tower be roughly equivalent or slightly better than the PB13-Ultra? I'm drooling over both and about to make the purchase in the next week or so.

They are going to be really close ... the Tower will have a slight edge in output, the Ultra in features.

Either is going to make you smile.

Craig,
Would you "guess" that the A3-300 is closer to the A2-300 or the A5-350?

Matt ... The A2-300 would be the best guess.

Thank you Craig. I was hoping you'd say about in the middle, lol.
Let's see, Erie, PA.
Jeez you could be a Bills, Browns, or Steelers fan....so who are you rooting for?

Thank you Craig. I was hoping you'd say about in the middle, lol.
Let's see, Erie, PA.
Jeez you could be a Bills, Browns, or Steelers fan....so who are you rooting for?

I am a lifetime Browns fan ... and you did not offer "in the middle" as an option. :p

Is it in the middle roughly? lol

Have any of you come across any photos of the Epik 15" driver? I sure would like to see one (maybe it's top secret?).

are the castle/tower line a huge step up from the knight/caliber line for a normal living room?

I too am quite interested in the Epik line, specifically the Castle and Tower. However the savings in floor space by purchasing the PC Ultra may be the deciding factor. The room compensation and parametric eq could be quite a bonus. Sheer SPL numbers aside, is the Epik Castle a more visceral experience than the Ultra?

One other update ... After getting the new driver, the Def Tech Trinity is definitely sounding better on music passages ... especially on the Steely Dan 2AN and the Stanley Clark-Pink Floyd ... etc ... its music score moves up to a 48.

thanks for the update craig

I too am quite interested in the Epik line, specifically the Castle and Tower. However the savings in floor space by purchasing the PC Ultra may be the deciding factor. The room compensation and parametric eq could be quite a bonus. Sheer SPL numbers aside, is the Epik Castle a more visceral experience than the Ultra?

I want to know that too. Craig, do you think the PB13 is in the top 10 commercial subwoofer in the world?

The Castle and Ultra are very close, in terms of the visceral performance each delivers. When switching between the 2, it is hard to tell which is playing.

And I Carried the Valor out of the basement system tonight, and it now resides in the upstairs room - which, as mentioned earlier, is a hard room to "drive".

By this time next week, it will be done.

And soon after that, the MFW-15 will hit the system.

Then, if we are going to test more, I need to sell off a few subs. :D

I want to know that too. Craig, do you think the PB13 is in the top 10 commercial subwoofer in the world?

I could not answer that question - but it is an excellent subwoofer. :)

tough comparison I'd imagine since most commercial subs use external amps

Define "commercial". Are you referring to subs used in walk in theaters???

How hot should I run my Dual HSU 3.3 from reference. Does anyone have theirs set to 5dbs over reference?

Craig,

I'm not sure if you saw my earlier post.....

Craig,

I just purchased the Valor and should have it hear next week. I'm also hoping to get the Salk SongTowers later next year. So your review is much appreciated.

One question I have though, did you use either the SMS-1 or the Behringer 24/96 to blend the Valor with the SongTowers or did it blend well enough that you didn't need extra calibration?

Thanks again.

In our basement theater, EQ is not needed. In the upstaris theater, it is.

In our basement theater, EQ is not needed. In the upstaris theater, it is.
So in your upstairs room, will you use the SMS-1 or the Behringer DEQ2496 when you test the Valor?

Sounds like ED A5-350 and Epik Castle are the benchmark subs at 600 and 1000+shipping(?), respectively. I'd like to know that, if I want to spend b/w 600 and 1000, does the castle sound 400 better than ED? The castle hit much lower with much more authority? My entertainment room is 3200cf but it has a relatively large opening with stairs to the ground floor.

Sounds like ED A5-350 and Epik Castle are the benchmark subs at 600 and 1000+shipping(?), respectively. I'd like to know that, if I want to spend b/w 600 and 1000, does the castle sound 400 better than ED? The castle hit much lower with much more authority? My entertainment room is 3200cf but it has a relatively large opening with stairs to the ground floor.

Well, if you look at craigs scores, the castle beats the A5-350 by a pretty decent score, so I would say yeah, the castle is worth the extra cash. But if you went with 2 A5-350's costing 1200 shipped, now that's the better question.
2 A5's vs 1 castle, pretty much the same price.

Well, if you look at craigs scores, the castle beats the A5-350 by a pretty decent score, so I would say yeah, the castle is worth the extra cash. But if you went with 2 A5-350's costing 1200 shipped, now that's the better question.
2 A5's vs 1 castle, pretty much the same price.

what do you think craig? 2x a5-350 vs. 1 castle?

2 A5-350's vs. one Castle is a tough call. Performance would be close, with room shaking, quality bass. The dual subs give more placement options, while the Castle is less obtrusive.

A lot of this comes down to one's room. There is no "right" answer to this. Some rooms benefit from duals ... others a sub in the corner.

2 A5-350's vs. one Castle is a tough call. Performance would be close, with room shaking, quality bass. The dual subs give more placement options, while the Castle is less obtrusive.

A lot of this comes down to one's room. There is no "right" answer to this. Some rooms benefit from duals ... others a sub in the corner.

thanks craig!

Could someone tell me what's the different in seal and no seal sub.

Thanks,

2 A5-350's vs. one Castle is a tough call. Performance would be close, with room shaking, quality bass. The dual subs give more placement options, while the Castle is less obtrusive.

A lot of this comes down to one's room. There is no "right" answer to this. Some rooms benefit from duals ... others a sub in the corner.

Hi, craigsub, I really appreciate all the work you have done to help everyone man!!! Very good work, Thanks for that

Craig,
You said that you were going to test the HSU MBM-12 w the 3.3 or HO... But I couldnt find it in the list...
What score finally did you assigned to the combinations?

Hey Craig and everybody else who has an opinion on this... what's a fantastic sub for both music and HT? I keep leaning towards the SVS SB12 and the Martin Logan Abyss for music, but from what I understand they don't go low for HT. Is there a good middle-ground sub, or one that excels in both? Hopefully for less than a grand?

hello Craigsub,

I was just wondering if the A5-350 was tested in the same room as the Valor for music. Thanks.

I'm interested in how the Valor performs...

I'll probably be looking at HSU or EPIK for a dual purpose (both HT and Music) sub. EPIK Valor caps out my budget.

I just fired up "Return of the King", and the Valor is handling all bass duties on its own. It is not a great sub for a large room ... but it is doing a pretty good job in keeping a solid floor.

It is not a great sub for a large room

is that because it's sealed? curious because i'm interested in caliber/knight and they use same driver/amp as valor i believe, but have not seen tests for those two.

What qualifies as a large room? My room is approx. 4100 cubic (14 x 29 x 10) with one door on a side wall and one window on the back wall and all wall cavities insulated. I'm looking at an eD or Epik sub at the cheapest cost to fill this room for 80/20 HT and music?

I am looking to upgrade my sub, and I am willing to pay more for a smaller enclosure. How would you compare these two based strictly on performance? I see the Castle is rated higher, but I am not sure if the rankings include value in the equation.
My room is about 3000 cubic feet, and I am about 80/20 HT to music ratio.

Thanks
Greg

Guys ... Please, when you quote, use the entire quote. The Valor is doing a good job. Is it a great sub for a big room, as is the Conquest or eD A7-900 ?

No.

But it is a good sub ... and if one is on a budget, and needs to fill a larger room, the Knight or Caliber would likely work well ... along with the A5-350.

I am looking to upgrade my sub, and I am willing to pay more for a smaller enclosure. How would you compare these two based strictly on performance? I see the Castle is rated higher, but I am not sure if the rankings include value in the equation.
My room is about 3000 cubic feet, and I am about 80/20 HT to music ratio.

Thanks
Greg

The Castle is much bigger, true. I don't consider price when testing a sub. There are a lot of personal decisions to make ... and the Castle/F-113 are perfect examples.

The Castle will outgun the F-113 in the deep stuff, and the larger/ported cabinet allows this to happen. To some, the huge cabinet is detrimental. To others, it isn't.

To some, the premium for a really small sub with amazing output is worth the $$$$, to others, it isn't.

To some, the premium for a really small sub with amazing output is worth the $$$$, to others, it isn't.
I hope a7s-450 will be the fathom killer in that case. Can't wait for you to test it.

Guys ... Please, when you quote, use the entire quote.

I prefer an extra firm manzier, especially when moving around large subs and dealing w/ high energy bass waves.
;)



I agree that you should at least try and maintain some of the context of the original quote.

I have dual HSU 3.3 connected to the Onkyo 805. When should I calibrate the subs before or after I run Audyssey. Should I have them both on when I run the Audyssey? How would you calibrate your dual subs? Anyone have a similar setup?

bori,

The Audyssey thread and the Onkyo 805 thread in the receivers/preamp/amplifiers group would better addresses this.

I have added a note about the MBM-12 from Hsu on the bottom of the summary page. Hopefully it will help.

Could someone tell me what's the different in seal and no seal sub.

Thanks,

Seal(ed) subwoofer - A speaker without a port or opening in the cabinet. Acoustic suspension and infinite baffle are two examples.

no seal(ed) subwoofer - A speaker with an opening or a port in the cabinet. Bass reflex, passive radiator and transmission tuning are three examples.

The history and virtues of each design has been covered in other threads.

I have dual HSU 3.3 connected to the Onkyo 805. When should I calibrate the subs before or after I run Audyssey. Should I have them both on when I run the Audyssey? How would you calibrate your dual subs? Anyone have a similar setup?

i asked this question yesterday, and audyssey answered in the onkyo 805 thd. a must read for you i would think.

Craig,

I noticed you got a pair of Strata Mini's about a year ago and was just wondering how you think the Valor would do with the Mini's? (My room is around 20x17x12.) I'm not looking for "earth-shattering" bass, just a very affordable option to round out the Mini's when watching movies (mostly) and listening to music.

Thanks for all you hard work!

Craig how big is that room the Valor is in?

I'm considering the Valor (though it is about 10% over my budget and 20% if you include shipping...

I'm also considering the HSU VTF2-MK3

That are your thoughts on these two? Music and Home Theater use.

We have 2 rooms ... in the smaller, 3700 cubic foot (and also MUCH more sealed off, thanks to concrete walls) basement theater, the Valor is fantastic.

The room I mentioned last night is 4500 Cubic feet, and less easy to drive, as it has four "regular" walls of 2x6 construction.

As far as output, it is at least as powerful as the VTF-2.3 ... based on feel alone.

For anything 1500-3000 cubic feet, a Valor will work fine.

And for augmenting a pair of Strata Minis, again, it will be a nice addition.

I am looking to upgrade my sub, and I am willing to pay more for a smaller enclosure. How would you compare these two based strictly on performance? I see the Castle is rated higher, but I am not sure if the rankings include value in the equation.
My room is about 3000 cubic feet, and I am about 80/20 HT to music ratio.

Thanks
Greg
If 80% is HT and you have the room get the sub that goes deeper for less $$$= Castle. JMO

We have 2 rooms ... in the smaller, 3700 cubic foot (and also MUCH more sealed off, thanks to concrete walls) basement theater, the Valor is fantastic.

The room I mentioned last night is 4500 Cubic feet, and less easy to drive, as it has four "regular" walls of 2x6 construction.

As far as output, it is at least as powerful as the VTF-2.3 ... based on feel alone.

For anything 1500-3000 cubic feet, a Valor will work fine.

And for augmenting a pair of Strata Minis, again, it will be a nice addition.

Ahh thank you for the response..based solely on dimensions alone my room is about 2200 cubic feet, its about 14x19x8...problem is it is not sealed off completely from the rest of the house. But even if you tack on 50% that puts you at 3300 cubic feet.

I guess it either sub would be fine for my application. Perhaps erroring on the side of the bigger driver would be best :D

Here is one thing i am confused about. The ED a5-350 indeed sounds like a great bargain. Based on these scored though, the HSU 3.3 scored quite a bit higher and carries basically the same price tag?!? Wouldnt the HSU be the bargain of the 600 range based on the scores?

$599 ? vtf-2 ? scored way lower and the shipping is not free
I'm not sure what youre talking about

If 80% is HT and you have the room get the sub that goes deeper for less $$$= Castle. JMO

I know that less money or deeper extension makes sense, but my HT is also my living room (damn these small California homes :) ). If the performance is pretty close, I would be willing to pay more for the better looking and smaller sub.

I know that less money or deeper extension makes sense, but my HT is also my living room (damn these small California homes :) ). If the performance is pretty close, I would be willing to pay more for the better looking and smaller sub.

Shared living room wasn't mentioned. But if you have the space to put a castle?? Me if I had the cash I would get a F112 or F113. The score wasn't much less. Music was equal and the Ht probably wouldn't miss much. 53 for Ht is a good score. 50 was the score for the ED A5-350 which everyone say rocks there house. Looks would be important in living space to ME.:eek:....if I had the cash :(

I know that less money or deeper extension makes sense, but my HT is also my living room (damn these small California homes :) ). If the performance is pretty close, I would be willing to pay more for the better looking and smaller sub.

The Fathom is a terrific unit, and yes, they are pretty close in many ways. The Fathom also adds ARO, which eases set up.

It is a premium product, and definitely a great looking sub.

Your situation is a perfect example of why we don't score based on price, looks, finish or size.

There are people looking at your situation, and thinking "No way do I spend $2800 (street price the last I heard) on a 113 when I can get a Castle for $1000".

Others are thinking "I would LOVE to have a smaller sub that rocks the house, the extra $$$$ are worth it".

If money is not an issue, and size is, grab a Fathom. :)

What about the a7s-450? It's not much bigger than fathom, and looking at the specs I expect it to sound very impressive

What about the a7s-450? It's not much bigger than fathom, and looking at the specs I expect it to sound very impressive

actually it's much bigger than the fathom ... but for the price, you can get 4 A7S-450's in the 4 corners of your room :)

but it sure is tempting to order the Fathom. I'm currently trying to haggle the 3500 price :)

Your situation is a perfect example of why we don't score based on price, looks, finish or size.

There are people looking at your situation, and thinking "No way do I spend $2800 (street price the last I heard) on a 113 when I can get a Castle for $1000".

Others are thinking "I would LOVE to have a smaller sub that rocks the house, the extra $$$$ are worth it".

If money is not an issue, and size is, grab a Fathom. :)

Then there are those of us who don't care about looks and would grab the A7-900 in a heartbeat. :-)

Splotto

$599 ? vtf-2 ? scored way lower and the shipping is not free
I'm not sure what youre talking about

My bad. I was looking at the HSU Mark III but when I saw the ED score I saw only the music score and not the combined so I had it around 50. Ooops.

Then there are those of us who don't care about looks and would grab the A7-900 in a heartbeat. :-)

Splotto

Splotto, I think I have said this about 200 times in this thread. We each have our own decor issues, which is why I don't rate on looks, size or price.

craig, any luck in getting the mfw-15 yet, I know....another sub to throw into the loop to make decisions harder on people on what sub to get. :)

Splotto, I think I have said this about 200 times in this thread. We each have our own decor issues, which is why I don't rate on looks, size or price.

I know...I was just being (or trying to be anyway) humorous. Clearly I failed miserably and I will now go crawl into the fetal position in the shower.

Splotto

I have an older sub, the Energy 18XL, from 6 or 7 years ago, that I am not sure how to compare to what is available now. I suspect that it is the weakest link in my system, but don't know what it would cost to get an improvement. It's an 18 inch driver, which was replaced about 4 years ago with a factory original part. At the time I purchased it the sub got a reasonably good review, comparable to the entry Bag End subs, but I never hear about those any more, either. How would I figure out which units are true upgrades?

My speakers are B&W 803s (first nautilus series, from similar era to sub) and an HTM1 center with 3 pairs of 600s for surrounds. the room is 3200ish cubic feet. The room doesn't close up, though, as there are open doorways to adjacent rooms and a stairwell going up to the rest of the house. The front wall has 1 inch of fiberglass covered in AT cloth and floor to ceiling fiberglass bales in the front corners for bass traps. Sidewalls have curtains to first reflection point (or maybe a little short of it, I'll check again since seats have moved). I have a new Integra 9.8 pre/pro powered by an Outlaw 770 amp. The Audyssey EQ in the 9.8 has helped most of my room issues but the sub still doesn't seem as musical as it ought to be for what it cost.

splotto
I just laughed at that great line. Way to go sir. Thank you for that laugh.

Clearly I failed miserably and I will now go crawl into the fetal position in the shower.

Splotto


LOL!!!!

I know...I was just being (or trying to be anyway) humorous. Clearly I failed miserably and I will now go crawl into the fetal position in the shower.

Splotto

See ? When you try hard, you are hilarious ... :D

Somone asked about the MFW-15. I got a note that mine was in Colorado, so it should be shipped pretty quick. I think.

craig,
is there such a thing as subwoofer "breaking in period"? would a sub sound better when the rubber part losen up? if there is a break in period, how long would it take?

I have never spent much time worrying about subwoofer break in. I do beat on a sub for a few days before doing any critical listening or taking measurements.

I don't know if this belongs in this thread, but I was 100% set to pull the trigger on a pair of castles...and I have officially been shot down due to WAF (already have a pair of ported 15's in the room). This seems to be infinitely more limiting than budget and space constraints combined when picking a sub. I actually got a: "Why can't you use those tiny Bose things like everyone else."

I'm going to have to take a break from these forums because you guys are making me too jealous!...so many great options out there.

I'll never let the issue die, so hopefully I'll be back in the future with more questions. Wish me luck.

Tell your wife "Bose" is the worst of all swear words and she should never use it.

Tell your wife "Bose" is the worst of all swear words and she should never use it.

Bose may suck, but "what you already have is more than enough" sounds even worse.

I don't know if this belongs in this thread, but I was 100% set to pull the trigger on a pair of castles...and I have officially been shot down due to WAF (already have a pair of ported 15's in the room). This seems to be infinitely more limiting than budget and space constraints combined when picking a sub. I actually got a: "Why can't you use those tiny Bose things like everyone else."

I'm going to have to take a break from these forums because you guys are making me too jealous!...so many great options out there.

I'll never let the issue die, so hopefully I'll be back in the future with more questions. Wish me luck.

There are some nice looking smaller options, as you probably know. In addition to the JLs, SVS, there are very nice looking (and supposedly good sounding) subs from REL. Don't give up on the quest for fabulous bass!

saj3,
The better option may be to trade in the wife for an upgraded model! :D

Tell your wife "Bose" is the worst of all swear words and she should never use it.

The most foul and vile of all four letter words, eh? ;)

I have a question for rmlowz, Mark Seaton, or anyone else who has heard the JTR Growlers.

By all accounts they sound excellent but run well over 1k once you add an amp, do any of the subs on Craig's list give you the same kind of mid bass chest thump or are these units (which supposedly push 140db?) in a class of their own?

Wow, 30 x 22 x 22.5 is a "very compact" subwoofer. News to me.

Hello,

Like you said, the Growlers are really in a league of their own. The A7-900 and Conquest have good 40Hz punch also giving the slight edge to the A7-900. The Growlers have a lot more output in that region and are designed especially for the mid bass you will not be disappointed. I think all lot of folks would be happy with the Growlers with out adding any additional lower extension IMHO.

rmlowz

Hello,

Quote: Wow, 30 x 22 x 22.5 is a "very compact" subwoofer. News to me.

They are very compact if you are musician and have to move them to every show. That's what the Growler was designed for. They made it to the home theater arena from soundood telling us about it.

rmlowz

I have an older sub, the Energy 18XL, from 6 or 7 years ago, that I am not sure how to compare to what is available now. I suspect that it is the weakest link in my system, but don't know what it would cost to get an improvement. It's an 18 inch driver, which was replaced about 4 years ago with a factory original part. At the time I purchased it the sub got a reasonably good review, comparable to the entry Bag End subs, but I never hear about those any more, either. How would I figure out which units are true upgrades?

My speakers are B&W 803s (first nautilus series, from similar era to sub) and an HTM1 center with 3 pairs of 600s for surrounds. the room is 3200ish cubic feet. The room doesn't close up, though, as there are open doorways to adjacent rooms and a stairwell going up to the rest of the house. The front wall has 1 inch of fiberglass covered in AT cloth and floor to ceiling fiberglass bales in the front corners for bass traps. Sidewalls have curtains to first reflection point (or maybe a little short of it, I'll check again since seats have moved). I have a new Integra 9.8 pre/pro powered by an Outlaw 770 amp. The Audyssey EQ in the 9.8 has helped most of my room issues but the sub still doesn't seem as musical as it ought to be for what it cost.


For lack of response, how about another question. Should I consider adding a second sub of different design to connect in parallel or would it be better to replace the sub entirely?

Will a Castle be a big step in performance from my HGS series Velodyne??? Thanks...Al

alan,

Which HGS?

Sorry HGS 15 THX ultra...Thanks..Al

I was at a dinner and dance party the other night and i see exactly what rmlowz is saying. The kind of chest thump that some decent loudspeakers (similar to growlers in output) is a huge difference over a conquest IMO.. I'll be looking for maybe an mbm or something of that nature once i move. The conquest just doesn't give me much chest thump at all in my room. It will shake the crap out the room and sound very good doing so in the under 30 or 40 hz region but for whatever reason it doesnt hit hard in the upper bass region. Also lots of nulls messing up the response as well.
My floorstanding speakers seem to be lacking a bit in the same area.. I can't wait, 20 days or so until i move. I'm really hoping having a larger room helps out my FR..

mwolf
shouldn't you consider that it is the room and not the sub nor your speakers?

that chest thump is what I'm looking for! concert, club, disco, car ...

seems that home subs have different goals to those above. hmmm.

For lack of response, how about another question. Should I consider adding a second sub of different design to connect in parallel or would it be better to replace the sub entirely?

I know where you're coming from. I'm using an ancient but very serviceable and effective DefTech PF1500. Yet I have no idea how it compares to today's units. It cost a cool grand ten years ago. I suppose if we're blissfully ignorant and happy with what we've got, why bother investigating alternatives...or asking others for objective data on what we now have?:rolleyes: I'm sure your Energy sub is pretty impressive by any standard. But I'm in the same boat. So...no advice from me. Sorry.

I have a question for rmlowz, Mark Seaton, or anyone else who has heard the JTR Growlers.

By all accounts they sound excellent but run well over 1k once you add an amp, do any of the subs on Craig's list give you the same kind of mid bass chest thump or are these units (which supposedly push 140db?) in a class of their own?

No, the Growler is what I would describe as a hi-fidelity pro audio sub. Above 40-50Hz the horn loading and high excursion driver make for a very potent package. What is really unique about the Growler is how smooth the un-EQ'd response is for a compact bass horn. Most bass horns are 2-8x the volume of the Growler. Most bass horns crammed into small packages have a ragged response when used as a single box. It's response of +/-1dB from 46-100+Hz is smoother than many HT subwoofers. 130dB+ @ 1m gp with 1000W of power and low compression is well beyond most HT subs. It takes 2 of most HT subs to compete in this range. I know it takes 2 SubMersives to tickle the output capabability of a Growler powered by just 1000W, but obviously HT oriented subs will be much stronger below ~30Hz. In less volumous, confined rooms, a pair could probably be made to dig quite deep with minor EQ and give you some silly headroom for music playback.


Wow, 30 x 22 x 22.5 is a "very compact" subwoofer. News to me.

As rmlowz already pointed out, it's a pro-audio subwoofer. The actual dimensions of 30" x 20" x 22.5" is both very compact, and very transportation-friendly in the context of professional audio. If anyone is looking for a great sounding pro sub for a compact system, these should be on the list of considerations. Yes, I'm a little biased, but I've also heard them head to head with many other competing products.

saj3,
The better option may be to trade in the wife for an upgraded model! :D

Obviously you have never upgraded before. The cost can be outrageous.

Obviously you have never upgraded before. The cost can be outrageous.

why upgrade, when you can get duals. :rolleyes:

I heard 4 is ideal.


4 weeks in a month and all.

guess the mid bass thump I thought I was getting from my Fathom is really just a massage

time to start saving for a pair of growlers

Hello,

I have owned the f113 it is a great sub. Something about pro audio JTR, Danley or what some forum friends including me call commercial subs. Like the Conquest and the A7-900. Once you go this far it is hard to turn back IMHO. I have had a lot of fun this past year probably my best year as far as BIG improvements with bass. I am looking forward to the New Year for more new improvements with bass.

Merry Christmas,

rmlowz

Just bought my third fathom F113 and working on the fourth one. Hoping for some SERIOUS bass! Dedicated, Rives-designed room should be bass-friendly. The room is a huge determinant re: the tactile bass in the 40-60hz range (as well as below of course).

I thought the whole purpose of Fathom was to get good bass when you dont have a lot of space..if you can fit in 4 fathoms, can't you just go with 1 big sub instead?

CADOBHuk,

Fathoms are like crack to bassheads. They just can't get enough of them. lol

You do make an interesting point, though. My guess is that on a hard to drive room, multiple subs would perform better than a single larger sub.

With multiple subs, you can spread them around the room for more even bass response. Can't do that with one sub.

It is nice the have that "bass everywhere" sensation that multiple subs can give you. It eliminates the situation where only the sweet spot has good bass and really seems to energize the room.

I know where you're coming from. I'm using an ancient but very serviceable and effective DefTech PF1500. Yet I have no idea how it compares to today's units. It cost a cool grand ten years ago. I suppose if we're blissfully ignorant and happy with what we've got, why bother investigating alternatives...or asking others for objective data on what we now have?:rolleyes: I'm sure your Energy sub is pretty impressive by any standard. But I'm in the same boat. So...no advice from me. Sorry.

Perhaps I'll start a separate thread as this whole forum is about subs. Just seems all the cool kids play in this one.

I did come to the realization last night that I forgot to adjust for the low frequency roll-off on my 10 year old rat shack SPL meter when I switched processors last month. My sub is probably running 3-6dB hot and needs to be brought down a little. That might ease off the boominess.

I did a google search on it and amusingly enough found my own posts on the SMR forum from 1999 where I asked questions about the 18XL before purchase. Going through the old info it seems the sub was tuned for HT boom and not music, so I may just not have the right tool for the job.

I thought the whole purpose of Fathom was to get good bass when you dont have a lot of space..if you can fit in 4 fathoms, can't you just go with 1 big sub instead?

Fathoms aren't just for space-limited rooms. Besides, they aren't going to be sitting on top of each other!

I had 2 F113s and briefly thought about getting a couple of Castles or something but just couldn't get past the fugly box. The opportunity came up out of nowhere and I just got the fourth F113 ordered today. I haven't even heard my original 2 F113s in the newly constructed room yet (it's almost done) but the opportunity was too good to pass up. Does anyone ever complain that they have too much headroom?

Does anyone ever complain that they have too much headroom?

That would be like complaining that you have too much money.

Ribbit,
Are you from Utah by any chance? :D
Besides, if you have duals or 4, there will be no money
left for upgrade-itis.


why upgrade, when you can get duals. :rolleyes:

I heard 4 is ideal.


4 weeks in a month and all.

why upgrade, when you can get duals. :rolleyes:

I heard 4 is ideal.


4 weeks in a month and all.

I could get used to that. The Philippines is sounding better and better.:)

I could get used to that. The Philippines is sounding better and better.:)

From Philippines you could just 'add to cart' and order online ... I guess shipping is free if you order 2 or more :D

From Philippines you could just 'add to cart' and order online ... I guess shipping is free if you order 2 or more :D

I wish. :D

Here is the scoring summary with the Home Theater score and Music score, respectively shown as (HT-M).

Prices and whether the items are available Internet Direct or from a store are now included. Keep in mind that ID pricing will usually be firm, or slightly discounted, where some ID products will see substantial discounts. BM = Brick and Mortar. ID = Internet Direct. ID/SI = shipping included.

Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2000 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52)

Thank you for doing all these tests craigsub.

Would a stacked pair of Conquests score equal to, better or worse than a single A7-900?

The question goes for both HT and music score. Thanks.

How hot should I run my Dual HSU 3.3 from reference. Does anyone have theirs set to 5dbs over reference?

Absolutely. :D

Is there an explanation of how the rating is done on this thread? What are Craigsubs credentials on evaluating subwoofers...Maybe hes a double agent for Epik and eD...Not bashing him at all just wondering why his ratings are bass gospel...Al

Is there an explanation of how the rating is done on this thread? What are Craigsubs credentials on evaluating subwoofers...Maybe hes a double agent for Epik and eD...Not bashing him at all just wondering why his ratings are bass gospel...Al

Craig can speak for himself, but his ratings are not gospel. He has his own business and evaluates subs on HIS time. As far as I know, he has no affiliation with any of these companies. He's a fellow joe that loves subs and has the gear to test them and give a general, subjective evaluation based on HIS ears.

Alan - I have posted dozens of times what the test criteria is.

If you wish to discuss how things are done here, there is a little thing available call the PM.

Try it, and some manners (for example, you could lose the word gospel), and you might find we get along just fine.

Continue with the double agent stuff, and we won't. :rolleyes:

To add to Vitod. Craig also brings in a group to do blind listening tests.

Alan - I have posted dozens of times what the test criteria is.

If you wish to discuss how things are done here, there is a little thing available call the PM.

Try it, and some manners (for example, you could lose the word gospel), and you might find we get along just fine.

Continue with the double agent stuff, and we won't. :rolleyes:

Guess I could have worded that a little differently:) Sorry I offended you in any way..I guess you are a regarded bass enthusiast that likes helping other people make a smart decision on buying a geat subwoofer..I tried to look a bit for the criterea on ratings..I will look some more....Thanks...Al

To add to Vitod. Craig also brings in a group to do blind listening tests. Thats a great way to get an unbiased opinion on which product is better...If you advertise in a magazine I would think it would be difficult to give a paying customer a bad reveiw...looks like a great way to pick my next sub...Thanks...Al

Alan, I find it kind of ironic you pick those two subs out everything. Craig has been very helpful in my serch of my sub(s) I also went by OTHER criteria. I find him about as unbiased as someone could be. I PMed him several times, and he was very helpful. Based on his input, and many others sources, I purchased my (2) subs, and they were NOT epik or eD, so he was not pushing them per say over other brands. I am just greatful for the time, money and passion he has devoted to this hobby. Jon

Guess I could have worded that a little differently:) Sorry I offended you in any way..I guess you are a regarded bass enthusiast that likes helping other people make a smart decision on buying a geat subwoofer..I tried to look a bit for the criterea on ratings..I will look some more....Thanks...Al

You are more than welcome ... and this is much better. Thanks. :)

Sorry I offended you in any way..

craig tends to be offended easily and is a bit oversensitive (if you look at his tone in past posts). he's doing a good service, but no need to aplolgize to him. you did nothing wrong.

craig tends to be offended easily and is a bit oversensitive (if you look at his tone in past posts). he's doing a good service, but no need to aplolgize to him. you did nothing wrong.

The point is:

1. If there's some personal agenda in mind, PM. I do it all the time.

2. If someone said to YOU about YOUR words being "gospel", "double agent for Epik and eD", YOU wouldn't defend yourself? Especially, if it's not true? That's not being offended. That's defending. Big difference.

Based on that, he was wrong. He jumped to conclusions.

I'm not worried about bias for either ed or epik, I dont see where could it possibly come from..I just hope Craig is not in the least bit biased towards av123 since he's an old member of their community/forum and even this ranking was posted there originally..so when their new subs get to him I hope he's not gonna cut them any slack.

I'm not worried about bias for either ed or epik, I dont see where could it possibly come from..I just hope Craig is not in the least bit biased towards av123 since he's an old member of their community/forum and even this ranking was posted there originally..so when their new subs get to him I hope he's not gonna cut them any slack.

The MFW-15 will get sent out on Wednsday, after Mark Seaton checks it out. It will get the snot beaten out of it. There have been plenty of posts about prototypes hitting 16 Hz powerfully, and it has a lot of hype to live up to.

Snot, by the way, is a technical term ... :D

For a little personal history ... yes, I like MLS, he is a lot of fun, and is a plus for the community.

He sent me an MFW-12 to test out in April, 2006.

It was a great sub (I still have it in my garage) from about 28 Hz and up, but rolled off below that. I told MLS at the time that it would get clobbered in the real world. He canned it, and got Mark Seaton involved in the MFW-15.

Finally ... check out the rating on the UFW-12.

I guess the ED A5-350 will be the natural comparison, might be tough to beat that with the smaller volume/amp though

The ED A5-350 will be the competition, but the MFW-15 will be wrapped in a nice veneer package. Since many people will need the sub to look good in the home, I'll take the MFW-15 if it's close in performance to the less aesthetically pleasing A5-350. Now, it just has to be at least close in performance ;)

ED A5-350
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/OUMoneyMan/002.jpg


AV123 MFW-15 in Palisander Rosa Satin
http://image.wetpaint.com/image/1/nGW-xObfuTiVYq9lUA_LFw56093/GW450H600

I'm sure the MFW-15 will cost alot more than the eD. Why not get the eD with no finish and you or someone can add a veneer or laminate. Parts Express has laminates.

Let me remind fellow AVS'ers. eD is a custom builder. They'll make anything you want.

Same price ^

He sent me an MFW-12 to test out in April, 2006. He meant UFW-12, NOT MFW-12. Poor fellow is getting old and is easily confused. :D

;)

Seriously, it is so easy to get any of these oh so ubiquitous acronyms mixed up - ULW, A5-350, UFW, A7-450, MFW, EP500, BMF, http://www.curvesforum.com/forum/images/smilies/new05b/sign32.gif

No need to worry about Craig's biases. He tends to call them as he sees them. MLS of av123 would have it no other way.

Prices for the ED-350 and MFW-15 are about the same

eD A5-350 (black finish) - $600

MFW-15 (black) -$599
MFW-15 (wood finish) - $699
MFW-15 (Diamond wood finish) - $799

Let me remind fellow AVS'ers. eD is a custom builder. They'll make anything you want. Will they make me a 2008 Corvette?? ;)

I thought there was a MFW 12 but did get put on hold?????? Until the 15 prototype??
Nine more days the Ed eD A5-350 is going to co$t more than the MFW-15.

It seems to me there was talk of an MFW-12. I know it certainly wasn't in existence in April 2006, and have no idea of it's current status.

I meant to type MFW-12 .. and It is still here. It was a prototype for AV123's first attempt at a high output, ported sub.

We did test out the UFW-12, too .... which is listed here.

The ED A5-350 will be the competition, but the MFW-15 will be wrapped in a nice veneer package. Since many people will need the sub to look good in the home, I'll take the MFW-15 if it's close in performance to the less aesthetically pleasing A5-350. Now, it just has to be at least close in performance ;)

ED A5-350
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/OUMoneyMan/002.jpg




Lol that picture is gonna be reposted a million times it seems..The guy who actually took that picture even said it looks bad cause he forgot to wipe the sub after taking it out of the package.
I dont expect it will be close in performance, for some reason..But I know nothing of course

Is there an explanation of how the rating is done on this thread? What are Craigsubs credentials on evaluating subwoofers...Maybe hes a double agent for Epik and eD...Not bashing him at all just wondering why his ratings are bass gospel...Al

Maybe over time people here have come to trust him based on his reviews, comments and methods.

Well, that's my reason anyway.

Splotto

hopefully Craig tests out a few more units before he moves on to a Corvette ZR-1 :)

craig tends to be offended easily and is a bit oversensitive (if you look at his tone in past posts). he's doing a good service, but no need to aplolgize to him. you did nothing wrong.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with questioning someones character. :rolleyes:

Same price ^

Hmmm...maybe the unfinished eD may cost less with the PE laminates than the MFW-15 overall.

Hmmm...maybe the unfinished eD may cost less with the PE laminates than the MFW-15 overall.

Regarding the eD subs, same price, with or without their finish. The MFW-15's pre-order price is $499, but won't be available until February.

I'll probably end up getting the A5-350 with the rest of the 5 channels...

hey craig,

do you have any pics you can show of this? i am just curious to see what the early prototypes looked like.

i am looking forward to your impression on the MFW15. hopefully, the long wait will be worth it for av123.

ED A5-350
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/OUMoneyMan/002.jpg

Lol that picture is gonna be reposted a million times it seems..The guy who actually took that picture even said it looks bad cause he forgot to wipe the sub after taking it out of the package.

Forgot to wipe the sub down?!? It darn well shouldn't need it. It should come in packaged well enough to be clean when you take it out of the packaging. I know if I had a sub come in looking that dirty, I'd be very disappointed.

Forgot to wipe the sub down?!? It darn well shouldn't need it. It should come in packaged well enough to be clean when you take it out of the packaging. I know if I had a sub come in looking that dirty, I'd be very disappointed.

yeah. subs should all be shipped in "special" cardboard that doesn't rub off on a the sub!!!

yeah. subs should all be shipped in "special" cardboard that doesn't rub off on a the sub!!!

Anyone shipping a sub with cardboard directly touching the sub itself isn't very bright. Plastic wrapping goes a long way in helping prevent the nastiness in the pic of the eD sub. Cardboard can't rub on the sub if it's not touching it in the first place.

yeah. subs should all be shipped in "special" cardboard that doesn't rub off on a the sub!!!

They could have simply put some plastic around it like every other speaker/sub manufacturer I've purchased from....I'm just sayin'.

Minor detail. How long does it take to throw some simple green on a rag and wipe it down? I doubt that cardboard was in contact with the sub...more like foam. Besides, the dude that snapped off that picture took it with the flash on. Once I get my setup, I'll use my 16-35L to fire off some images worthy of their performance.

And once eD bumps up the price to $710 on 1/08, they can wrap in plastic to keep everyone happy. :)

Forgot to wipe the sub down?!? It darn well shouldn't need it. It should come in packaged well enough to be clean when you take it out of the packaging. I know if I had a sub come in looking that dirty, I'd be very disappointed.

If I had to spend $600 to get a mediocre 12" sub, I'd be very disappointed..If I can get a sub like 350 for $600, I'm pretty far from being disappointed. Compared to the effort that my job takes to make $600, wiping a sub is worth about a nickel.

I meant to type MFW-12 .. and It is still here. My apologies, Craig. Didn't know you had a prototype. http://av123forum.com/images/smilies/foot-in-mouth.gif Didn't know there was a prototype. :(

Jack, no worries, I was impressed that you noticed MFW-12 ... :D

The eD subs are a lot nicer looking sub than that picture suggests. In person, they are just plain black, with texture.

Hello:

Has anyone here had the chance to watch 28 WEEKS LATER in their HT?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0463854/

The sound during the bombing scene and the helo rotor scene was incredible.

It might be that my system is totally mis-configured (not an entirely out of the question assumption) but the bass was off the hook.

Splotto

The Valor testing is complete ... and it gets a 44 for HT and the 47 for music, for a total of 91.

However, this 91 is an unusual 91 ... in a smaller room, the Valor will compete with more expensive subs in overall performance, which is worth keeping in mind for those with rooms under 3000 cubic feet ... and under 2000 cubic feet, this sub is magic.

The Valor testing is complete ... and it gets a 44 for HT and the 47 for music, for a total of 91.

However, this 91 is an unusual 91 ... in a smaller room, the Valor will compete with more expensive subs in overall performance, which is worth keeping in mind for those with rooms under 3000 cubic feet ... and under 2000 cubic feet, this sub is magic.

Nice...Craig, you get a chance to test out the Knight? I contacted Illka and he mentioned that the voltage conversion was not currently possible.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/8144-subwoofer-tests-round-5-6th-october-2007-test-summary-read-me.html

I am still trying to figure out how the Castle is so close in performance to the Conquest in home theater use with only 1 point difference app. 5%..I think it may be hard to tell them apart side by side...Considering the larger driver size and tha extra 500 watts of the Conquest, the Castle seems to be the bargain of the century...I still cant decide on which one to get though...Al

Craigsub,


what's the usable FR on the Valor (in room as well)?:confused:

Craigsub,


what's the usable FR on the Valor (in room as well)?:confused:


Same here..would also love to know...how low does the Valor go? +,- 3db's?

Hello everyone, A thread on Epik subwoofers over @ the Club Polk website led me here.I am a dedicated two channel listener and i just pulled the trigger on a Epic Valor for my two channel rig based on what i have read here. I will post my impressions of it here when i recieve it from Fedex. thanks.....WCW III

I am still trying to figure out how the Castle is so close in performance to the Conquest in home theater use with only 1 point difference app. 5%..I think it may be hard to tell them apart side by side...Considering the larger driver size and tha extra 500 watts of the Conquest, the Castle seems to be the bargain of the century...I still cant decide on which one to get though...Al

Craig scores don't necessarily correlate with how similar two units sound (AFAIK). At least i don't think that is always the case. FR graphs have shown the conquest to be several db's above the tower which is a bit better than the castle in the low frequencies. Maybe chad is lying, but from what i asked him the conquest was quite a bit better under 20hz.. So if you play movies and clips that have < 20hz material, you should be able to tell the difference. I just played the the pulse seen for my younger brother the other day and he was more than amazed. He said he'd never heard that kind of bass before...
I'm thinking the conquest got partially docked for not doing so well in the higher frequencies and the castle gained some points there.

OT: Is there anyone in eastern PA/NJ that is looking to buy a new sub? We could make a group trip to Erie to help with gas and loading.
Please feel free to PM me.

Same here..would also love to know...how low does the Valor go? +,- 3db's?third! and first!:p

Craig scores don't necessarily correlate with how similar two units sound (AFAIK). At least i don't think that is always the case. FR graphs have shown the conquest to be several db's above the tower which is a bit better than the castle in the low frequencies. Maybe chad is lying, but from what i asked him the conquest was quite a bit better under 20hz.. So if you play movies and clips that have < 20hz material, you should be able to tell the difference. I just played the the pulse seen for my younger brother the other day and he was more than amazed. He said he'd never heard that kind of bass before...
I'm thinking the conquest got partially docked for not doing so well in the higher frequencies and the castle gained some points there.

There are a few issues at play here ...

1. There still are not many scenes with below 20 Hz material. Even those movies with material under 20 Hz have a few seconds. When doing the HT portion, it is the overall performance of the sub.

2. The below 20 Hz signals are much less prominent in their "noticeablility" than the signals above 20 Hz. Keith Yates discussed this at length in his research.

3. By keeping the tuning a bit higher in the Castle, Epik managed to get terrific linearity from the Castle, and higher output, from the upper teens and up.

Hi Craig and happy holidays. I was wondering if you ever owned the Bag end infra 18 sub? How was that sub? How outdated is it?

I have never had the Bag end here, so I cannot comment on it.

The MFW-15 is scheduled to ship this week, though. :)

mwolfe, What is the Pulse scene??? .thanks..Al

Movie - "Pulse"
Scene - I believe the 'computer room'. I still have yet to test it as I've been told by everyone how bad that movie is.

great bass scene. you can turn the monitor off and just feel it. better that way.

I have never had the Bag end here, so I cannot comment on it.

The MFW-15 is scheduled to ship this week, though. :)

Sweet!!! Can't wait for the test...

So if money, aesthetics, and delivery time aren't an issue, is there any reason whatsoever to not pay $50 more and get an eD A5-350 over an HSU VTF-2 MK 3? Sound quality, reliability, build quality, anything? I'm completely floored by the perceived value of the A5-350 and are about 2 minutes from pulling the trigger. Are there any negatives whatsoever?

So if money, aesthetics, and delivery time aren't an issue, is there any reason whatsoever to not pay $50 more and get an eD A5-350 over an HSU VTF-2 MK 3? Sound quality, reliability, build quality, anything? I'm completely floored by the perceived value of the A5-350 and are about 2 minutes from pulling the trigger. Are there any negatives whatsoever?

Inconsistent Amps...there are a couple of cases where they blow unexpectedly. In eD's defense, they do take care of their customers by sending out new replacement amps.

So if money, aesthetics, and delivery time aren't an issue, is there any reason whatsoever to not pay $50 more and get an eD A5-350 over an HSU VTF-2 MK 3? Sound quality, reliability, build quality, anything? I'm completely floored by the perceived value of the A5-350 and are about 2 minutes from pulling the trigger. Are there any negatives whatsoever?

The other thing is that on the re-sale market, HSU is more recognized (more reviews, etc) than the eD. So if you decide to upgrade in 12 months and put the sub on craigslist or ebay, HSU is probably easier to sell. Of course, only you can decide whether you are likely to sell it -- and if the HSU is discontinued or replaced with a new model in a year, the price for the old model will take a big hit -- whereas with the eD, which seems to be a "newer" model, and with the retail price going up soon, the model will probably be around for a while and you might actually lose less once you find a buyer who knows eD.

Craig, I know that you put the Conquest on its side to get an improvement in the music scores. Have you tried that with the Castle? Do you think it would raise the music score just like the Conquest?

Also ... SVS has upgraded the PB12-NSD, and I plan on swapping the amp on my unit for a new amp, and retesting it.



How do you know about this upgraded amp for the PB12-NSD?

I have a PB12 -- purchased back in February 2007. How do I get this upgraded AMP? Is this a free offering from SVS?

So if money, aesthetics, and delivery time aren't an issue, is there any reason whatsoever to not pay $50 more and get an eD A5-350 over an HSU VTF-2 MK 3? Sound quality, reliability, build quality, anything? I'm completely floored by the perceived value of the A5-350 and are about 2 minutes from pulling the trigger. Are there any negatives whatsoever?


don't let the 2-3 blown amps prevent u from buying the best sub out there for the money.
also the eD A5-350 fared a LOT better than the HSU sub in GRAIGSUB's test
and even if u have a problem eD will take care of u

Well the subwoofers on my list have gotten better and better over the last 3 weeks. I went from a psw303 to a jbl sub 12 to a stf-1 to a stf-2 to an outlaw compact to taking a strike on e-bay for a ML dynamo to a vk-2 mk-3 to an epik valor. And just ordered the valor.

I'm afraid I made a mistake... I just couldn't help it! I kinda can't afford it and I have annoying apartment neighbors. Well it'l last for 10 years right? No biggie then. Thanks craig for advising me along the way. I'll be sure to post my opinions when I get it. Does anyone know how long Epik is taking to ship right now? Its only been 10 minutes and I'm itchin' already!

Rti8
Csi3
Rti6
Sub: Soon to be glorious Valor

Neumei let me know what the Valor sounds like :)

Well the subwoofers on my list have gotten better and better over the last 3 weeks. I went from a psw303 to a jbl sub 12 to a stf-1 to a stf-2 to an outlaw compact to taking a strike on e-bay for a ML dynamo to a vk-2 mk-3 to an epik valor. And just ordered the valor.

I'm afraid I made a mistake... I just couldn't help it! I kinda can't afford it and I have annoying apartment neighbors. Well it'l last for 10 years right? No biggie then. Thanks craig for advising me along the way. I'll be sure to post my opinions when I get it. Does anyone know how long Epik is taking to ship right now? Its only been 10 minutes and I'm itchin' already!

Rti8
Csi3
Rti6
Sub: Soon to be glorious Valor

$549 for 15" sealed sub is not bad at all. Do they make them in other colors? I can't stand the usual black boxes.

Craig, In terms of visceral feeling for HT how the HSU HO compares to the A5-350? Very Close?

Can you upload a graph of those two comparing with WOTW or another scene that you have available?

Neumei let me know what the Valor sounds like :)
3 - 5 business days

Has anybody else got a Valor?

I am getting very interested in the Valor now but there does not seem to be a lot of information on the website. Does anybody know how much it weighs? Frequency response?

My Valor is on the Fedx truck for delivery today. Fedx tracking puts the shipping weight at 85 lbs, so the Valor must weigh in the 70 lbs + range.

Here's a little bit of Chad's email to me re: what to expect of the Valor. My room is 1700 cf with an opening to a smaller room. "The Valor would be a great choice for your room. The anechoic frequency response is flat down to around 20 Hz. In-room you typically get down to the 17-18 Hz range. Output would probably never be a concern. The midbass "slam" is also quite amazing on the Valor. Thanks to its very high overall output capabilities, it tends to sound effortless compared to subwoofers using smaller drivers. The design is also based around a "low Q" audiophile sealed alignment, so the quality of the bass is fantastic." I am looking forward to getting it up and running today!!

My Valor is on the Fedx truck for delivery today. Fedx tracking puts the shipping weight at 85 lbs, so the Valor must weigh in the 70 lbs + range.

Here's a little bit of Chad's email to me re: what to expect of the Valor. My room is 1700 cf with an opening to a smaller room. "The Valor would be a great choice for your room. The anechoic frequency response is flat down to around 20 Hz. In-room you typically get down to the 17-18 Hz range. Output would probably never be a concern. The midbass "slam" is also quite amazing on the Valor. Thanks to its very high overall output capabilities, it tends to sound effortless compared to subwoofers using smaller drivers. The design is also based around a "low Q" audiophile sealed alignment, so the quality of the bass is fantastic." I am looking forward to getting it up and running today!!

Nice! Let us know what you think when you get a chance. My room is almost exactly the same size. Where do you plan to put the sub? Will it go near the front speakers, on a side wall or at the rear of the room?

I don't have many placement options due to the odd placement of windows, doors and openings. I am hoping it likes the area to the side of my right speaker. I have an Outlaw LFM-2 there now and it does fine there.

I have never had the Bag end here, so I cannot comment on it.

The MFW-15 is scheduled to ship this week, though. :)

i have owned two bag end infra subs at different time. there was the original and the newer model. both look different. the newer one has better looking cabinet and a new amp with a new finish. both sounds the same however. the bag end tune very low, at 8hz... it is by far one of the best subs i have owned. the issue with tuning so low is that it bottoms out quickly... home theater for a small room may work better than my big room. in term of music, it is the best sealed sub i had vs. the vedodyne hgs12, hgs15, uld15ii, mach5audio dyi, dayton titanic 15, vandersteen, muse sub18 (bandpass), def tech reference and supercube i (both passive radiator). there were a couple more sealed subs i had and can't remember, but bag end was really good, especially for music... well maybe the muse 18 was a bit better... both bottom out quickly with movies...

side note on those who have questioned the craigsub's list really shouldn't... i have owned enough subs, there are more than the ones i have mentioned above... so i think i to know a little bit about subs... when you kids call you a basshead then you know you really like subs... in anycase, i have been following this threads since the beginning and can honestly say that i love what craig has done here. but what i owned now really say it all... i have a epik castle and a hsu 3.3... castle upfront and hsu behind the couch. i am thinking about replacing the hsu with an epik caliber...

craig, do you have any comment on this move? replacing the hsu with the epik caliber? it will be used at near field. would the sound improved?

thanks craig!

My Valor is on the Fedx truck for delivery today. Fedx tracking puts the shipping weight at 85 lbs, so the Valor must weigh in the 70 lbs + range.

Here's a little bit of Chad's email to me re: what to expect of the Valor. My room is 1700 cf with an opening to a smaller room. "The Valor would be a great choice for your room. The anechoic frequency response is flat down to around 20 Hz. In-room you typically get down to the 17-18 Hz range. Output would probably never be a concern. The midbass "slam" is also quite amazing on the Valor. Thanks to its very high overall output capabilities, it tends to sound effortless compared to subwoofers using smaller drivers. The design is also based around a "low Q" audiophile sealed alignment, so the quality of the bass is fantastic." I am looking forward to getting it up and running today!!

I am sure if I want to buy from them, as their website is one of the most unclear I have seen. Other finishes don't seem to be available. They talk a lot about internal bracing but there is not a single picture showing what they are talking about. I still look forward to hear your impression of this sub though.

Their website is not the most informative of websites but according to chad they are working on a new site with more information.
However, there is some information and pictures showing the bracing. Beware anti bloggers, these are "blog" entries so they might be against your religion to view, just thought i'd warn you.
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/blog/?p=16
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/blog/?p=22
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/blog/?p=45

I posted a new thread with the question below but have yet to get any responces so I am reposting it here to see what you all can recommend.

I currently own an excellent SVS PB10-NSD but would like to increase my output a little and extend the lows as well. My dilema is whether to get an eD A5-350 before 1/1/2008 when the price jumps to $715 from $600, (and sell the PB10) or add another PB10-NSD during the 2nd half of 2008 when finances will be a bit better.

My question then comes down to, which option will sound better (more musical, better room compression etc) in my 17x14x8 room that is open to the kitchen and hall (the whole house really if no doors are closed) with a minimum of 3700+ cubic feet? I don't have much time to decide since the $600 shipped deal for the A5-350 ends 1/1/2008.

Also, I trust SVS. However recent reports of amp problems on the A5-350 and shady company practices from eD has me worried about longevity and future replacement support. Any helpful reassurance of eD would be appreciated.

I'd get another PB10 because you can either collocate them or one on each corner. Whichever works better. And you'll have two 10" drivers working compared to one 15".

Also, I've dealt and still deal with eD and their service is top notch. If theres a problem, they will do the best to rectify it.

i have owned two bag end infra subs at different time. there was the original and the newer model. both look different. the newer one has better looking cabinet and a new amp with a new finish. both sounds the same however. the bag end tune very low, at 8hz... it is by far one of the best subs i have owned. the issue with tuning so low is that it bottoms out quickly... home theater for a small room may work better than my big room. in term of music, it is the best sealed sub i had vs. the vedodyne hgs12, hgs15, uld15ii, mach5audio dyi, dayton titanic 15, vandersteen, muse sub18 (bandpass), def tech reference and supercube i (both passive radiator). there were a couple more sealed subs i had and can't remember, but bag end was really good, especially for music... well maybe the muse 18 was a bit better... both bottom out quickly with movies...

side note on those who have questioned the craigsub's list really shouldn't... i have owned enough subs, there are more than the ones i have mentioned above... so i think i to know a little bit about subs... when you kids call you a basshead then you know you really like subs... in anycase, i have been following this threads since the beginning and can honestly say that i love what craig has done here. but what i owned now really say it all... i have a epik castle and a hsu 3.3... castle upfront and hsu behind the couch. i am thinking about replacing the hsu with an epik caliber...

craig, do you have any comment on this move? replacing the hsu with the epik caliber? it will be used at near field. would the sound improved?

thanks craig!

The Hsu is a great nearfield subwoofer - I don't know that you would gain anything with this move. You have a terrific combo of the Hsu's mid bass slam and the Castle's deep bass ability.

Criag... if you can find some time, can you take a couple of pictures of the A5-350 and the Castle side by side? I have an A5-350 on order but now I'm considering paying the extra $$$ for the Castle. I'm concerned with how tall it is.

Thanks!

Also, my living room is about 2600 cubic ft. and it opens out to the the kitchen area. Do you think it would be worth the $$$ to upgrade for the Castle?

hope everyone had a great christmas and santa brought you lots of subwoofers

must be a bitch getting that large eD sub down the chimney :D

http://bestsmileys.com/christmas3/5.gif

The Hsu is a great nearfield subwoofer - I don't know that you would gain anything with this move. You have a terrific combo of the Hsu's mid bass slam and the Castle's deep bass ability.

awesome then... i will stop! can't say enough how much i like the combinations... thanks again... i owe you my friend...