don't let the 2-3 blown amps prevent u from buying the best sub out there for the money.
also the eD A5-350 fared a LOT better than the HSU sub in GRAIGSUB's test
and even if u have a problem eD will take care of u

In the interest of balance, are you confident that there are only 2-3 blown amps from eD subs? In casually researching subs the last few days I've seen at least 4-5 stories of blown amps. I saw a new post here today:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35857&page=5

Does that make the world-wide count of blown amps 4??? :cool: BTW, the audioholics post also raised a question in my mind regarding eD's customer support since deleting customer posts from a forum is weak.

I've seen your posts before and you're clearly an eD fan which is fine. I just think you're taking it too far by representing the quality of the subs as only "2-3 blown amps". You have no idea how many actual blown amps and you shouldn't speculate to ease someone's mind.

PS - I don't own and eD sub, I'm simply researching and find these types of posts more propoganda than helpful. Post FACTS and let people draw their own conclusions.

In the interest of balance, are you confident that there are only 2-3 blown amps from eD subs? In casually researching subs the last few days I've seen at least 4-5 stories of blown amps. I saw a new post here today:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35857&page=5

Does that make the world-wide count of blown amps 4??? :cool: BTW, the audioholics post also raised a question in my mind regarding eD's customer support since deleting customer posts from a forum is weak.

I've seen your posts before and you're clearly an eD fan which is fine. I just think you're taking it too far by representing the quality of the subs as only "2-3 blown amps". You have no idea how many actual blown amps and you shouldn't speculate to ease someone's mind.

PS - I don't own and eD sub, I'm simply researching and find these types of posts more propoganda than helpful. Post FACTS and let people draw their own conclusions.

Without knowing the failure rate of both companies products the comparison is moot (unless you're implication is that the failure rate of all the other names mentioned around here is zero.)

Lastly, does a company get marked down more for policing their forums, or for not having them at all?

Oh, and I find your post to be just as misleading as all the others that make conclusions based on assumptions, bias, etc...

Ranger, I believe you mistook Domingos comment to mean 2-3 total amps, rather than the individual in questions' 2-3 amp experience.

michael

Without knowing the failure rate of both companies products the comparison is moot (unless you're implication is that the failure rate of all the other names mentioned around here is zero.)

Lastly, does a company get marked down more for policing their forums, or for not having them at all?

Oh, and I find your post to be just as misleading as all the others that make conclusions based on assumptions, bias, etc...

To your first point - failure rate comparisons are not moot. The internet has a strange way of weeding out quality. If there's smoke there's usually fire (Xbox 360 and Microsoft's $1B hit after months of denial). A shopper shouldn't take blown amp reports lightly because someone says not to worry. When it comes to product failure rates facts are relevant and opinions useless.

To your second point - I most certainly take points off for policing forums. My perogative as a consumer - feel free to set your own personal standards for evaluating a company.

To your third point - makes no sense. How on earth is it misleading/biased to say let the facts speak for themselves? You really are just looking (reaching) for a fight with that nonsense.

I just picked up the epik conquest from craigsub, it's tearing my house apart! The basement is probably around 800-1000 square feet.

Interestingly though, I wouldn't settle for less - it really takes a beast of a sub to rip low frequencies around in a large room...

My dad is visiting and he said I need to turn it down, the neighbors can probably feel it - and their house is almost 50 feet away (haha!). It was rattling the whole house and he said it sounded like wires were coming loose in the walls.

I have only one or two things that seem "loose" in the basement that I have to take care of, other than that - the conquest was doing what I thought it'd do....amazing accuracy for an 18" driver.

-ELmO

Well, after almost 6 months of thinking about buying a sub for my post Katrina system, my babies arrived today-only 3 weeks after I ordered and paid for them. Kudos to MKTheater for suggesting the Madison Amp's M1-218's. I got 2, and they are massive at 2 x 2 x 4 ft each. I just listened to von Karajan and Beethoven's 9th (surprising little actually went to the subs) and WOW. At first I couldn't figure out why FM sounded better. Then I realized that I had to completely redo the settings on my DVD player and pre/pro to account for the subs and to allow for DTS. Yup, even my Oppo 981 DVD player had to have all the settings redone.
Then, O...h.... m......y........ G........O.........D........
(Did the levees break again??) Dual Executioner 18 inch subs in each cabinet-and the perfect name for these drivers. They even have more expensive subs just out, perhaps due to the different new drivers. The DVDs with Bass list was so right. I had heard Martin Logan's (I liked the Descent) and a few others over the past few months. Even learned to listen to and feel the subs with the rest of the stereo stuff turned off. I had also heard dual JBLs of similar size at Guitar Center (for a much higher price than what I paid). Yup, size matters.

My conclusions:
1. You guys rule :)) Thank you so much.
2. I much prefer the ?smoother feel/sound from paired subs, but my space is large at about 17 x 40 x 13.
3. These subs are huge and butt ugly, WAF=0. But I am single and I may pay a local artist to do a Jazz inspired Batik cloth covering. Were it not for the deal I got on these and the amps, I would never have gotten anything this big. They really are too big and you just don't appreciate it until you have them. If I ever move to a smaller place.....
For most people, I think even a 2 x 2 x 2 sub might be way too big, esp if used in pairs. Yet virtually every sub that is high on the CS list is big. For what it is worth, my guess is that most people would be well served by a moderate sized cylinder sub, like the ones I have seen (but never heard) from SVS. Had my main room been smaller, I might have gone this route. Bigger may be better, but it is often not practical when you need a forklift to move these. Mine are about 125 lbs each, much lighter than the eD dual 18s.
4. Although set up is pretty important, when you have subs as big as mine, your choices are very limited.
5. The non speaker components are mostly obtained since Katrina and an upgrade from the old system. I am not so sure I can hear the difference, based on memory. Stereo hype is unreal and pervasive. This forum has usually been good about avoiding hype. The Audio Critic website, though it can be highly technical, is great about cutting through the BS.
6. When New Orleans is home, life is very good indeed.

My rig:
Khorns as mains, Klipsch Academy centre, Klipsch LaScala's or Heresy's rear, mostly made in the mid 1970s, Madison M1-218s as subs (2)
Outlaw 990 pre/pro
Oppo 981 DVD, Tascam cassette decks, VCRs, 20 yr old 26" Sony TV
Mc240 Tube amp for mains, SS amps: Oultaw 750, Adcom 2535 (not a good choice to power these subs), Adcom GFA 555 - in bridged mode to power 1 sub. Usually fine, but distortion LEDs come on when the joint is jumping. My dedicated sub amps from PartsExpress should arrive next month.
1970s speakers, 1960s Tube Amp, 1980s Turntable and old Records: Priceless

To your first point - failure rate comparisons are not moot. The internet has a strange way of weeding out quality. If there's smoke there's usually fire (Xbox 360 and Microsoft's $1B hit after months of denial). A shopper shouldn't take blown amp reports lightly because someone says not to worry. When it comes to product failure rates facts are relevant and opinions useless.

To your second point - I most certainly take points off for policing forums. My perogative as a consumer - feel free to set your own personal standards for evaluating a company.

To your third point - makes no sense. How on earth is it misleading/biased to say let the facts speak for themselves? You really are just looking (reaching) for a fight with that nonsense.

3-4 posts on a forum != thousands. All products have failures, without knowing sales figures we can't tell anything. Anyone who claims they can has an agenda.

So having forums where people can discuss their products and policing them (deleting posts that don't follow the forum rules) is worse than having no forums at all?

Thirdly, you appear to have made a decision based on less than a handful of reports of failing amps and made accusations based on someone saying their post was deleted without knowing anything about the post at all. For all we know the guy's post was laced with profanities.

Well, considering that a few of the amp problems came from the same users house, wouldnt it be a easy assumption that something else such as faulty electrical, surges, drops in voltage maybe causing the issue? Humidity? Alot of things can cause issues in an amp.

ELmO--great for you!

What other subs have you had experience with?

Also, what are the dimensions of your room in the basement?

Craig sounds like the man to help this newb, I have decided by research and your thread to purchase the HSU,
I cannot decide to get the vtf-3 mk3 or the vtf-3 ho:
Problem:
I spoke to HSU (great guys) he recommended the MK3, but the price is close enough I would buy the HO if anyone would tell me I would be happier or any benefits.
My room is 3100 cu ft. 2 standard doorways (that cannot be closed), use 90%HT, Other equipment, Klipsch R7 speakers all the way around, and a Def. Tech 15TL Plus Sub. I am no audiophile, but I know I am missing some serious bass experience in the tight sharp mid bass range for sure. I do not crank it up crazy loud but enough for impact and realism. I wanna hear that rumble of engines and such, the deep cracking noises and more the whole range of bass not just the deep low stuff.
Thanks for the answer in advance, sorry for the newb question and hope this was in the correct thread.
Onkyo 875 if that needs to be known.
Thanks Again

Okay, now I am torn between two subs in the same price range. Craig or anyone else, what would you recommend for a room roughly 1775 cf. I am running Ascend Acoustics all around so these really need a good sub. I am looking at the Epik Valor or the Ed A5-350. I see where they score on the list and I have read about the amp issues with the Ed but I'm not sure if that has been blown out of proportion at this point or if the concerns are genuine. They seem to be new to home theater products and my listening will be 90% home theater use. Judging by looks alone I like the Valor. The weight difference is considerable between the two and part of me thinks that the heavier A5 would be better but I just don't know. Both are at my sweetspot for price. Help!

ELmO--great for you!

What other subs have you had experience with?

Also, what are the dimensions of your room in the basement?

I've been SVS-only up until now.

SVS PC 16-46 PCi, SVS PC 25-31 PCi, SVS PB10, SVS PB12.

Here's the room, the big red block is the epik:
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8335/basementmz4.jpg

I may move the epik behind the seating arrangement, because I plan to have a concession stand/popcorn machine in that general area...

I don't have an SPL meter on me so I can't calibrate it right now, I have the gain at about half and it appears to blend smoothly with my onix rockets (but won't overpower anything). Right now I run the gain at 3/4th if I want to rip the house a little, it ripples the legs. It's definitely a difficult room to pressurize but it works - I would love (and hate) to see the conquest in a smaller room! :o

-ELmO

Craig,

I am on the "waiting list" for the PC Ultra; after reading some of the reviews here I am wondering if I might be better off getting the Epik Castle and applying the savings to another item? I am a bit disappointed in SVS so far as I was initially told my unit would be sent in late November. Now its mid-January. They're also offering a Radio Shack soundmeter and an Avia test disc for new orders but dont seem to want to answer my inquiries if "old" orders will get the bonus items.

The sub will be used along with my new Yamaha Z11 in a large basement theater. Any thoughts or suggestions on what will end up sounding the best between these 2?

Okay, now I am torn between two subs in the same price range. Craig or anyone else, what would you recommend for a room roughly 1775 cf. I am running Ascend Acoustics all around so these really need a good sub. I am looking at the Epik Valor or the Ed A5-350. I see where they score on the list and I have read about the amp issues with the Ed but I'm not sure if that has been blown out of proportion at this point or if the concerns are genuine. They seem to be new to home theater products and my listening will be 90% home theater use. Judging by looks alone I like the Valor. The weight difference is considerable between the two and part of me thinks that the heavier A5 would be better but I just don't know. Both are at my sweetspot for price. Help!

For HT I think the A5 is your best bet. If I were placing an order today though I think I'd spring for the extra $$$ and get the Knight. From what I've read you probably couldn't tell the difference between the Knight and the A5 in an A/B comparison, and the Knight will get to you 6 weeks sooner.

For HT I think the A5 is your best bet. If I were placing an order today though I think I'd spring for the extra $$$ and get the Knight. From what I've read you probably couldn't tell the difference between the Knight and the A5 in an A/B comparison, and the Knight will get to you 6 weeks sooner.

Wow, I had no idea there was that kind of lead time for the A5-350! I like the look of the Valor but I just can't get over how big that A5 is. I guess I can wait. I would rather order now while I can still get the lower price. I am really torn! Maybe I should just flip a coin. Whatever I pick I'm sure it will be better than my little Dayton 12" sub from Parts Express. I like that little sub but it just does not get down and dirty like I want it to.

Craig,

I am on the "waiting list" for the PC Ultra; after reading some of the reviews here I am wondering if I might be better off getting the Epik Castle and applying the savings to another item? I am a bit disappointed in SVS so far as I was initially told my unit would be sent in late November. Now its mid-January. They're also offering a Radio Shack soundmeter and an Avia test disc for new orders but dont seem to want to answer my inquiries if "old" orders will get the bonus items.

The sub will be used along with my new Yamaha Z11 in a large basement theater. Any thoughts or suggestions on what will end up sounding the best between these 2?

Sorry to hear about your problems. All I can say is they've
answered every email I've sen't them. The Ultra is more customizable than the castle (or any Epiks) with its tunabilty and PQ out of the box.

Sorry to hear about your problems. All I can say is they've
answered every email I've sen't them. The Ultra is more customizable than the castle (or any Epiks) with its tunabilty and PQ out of the box.

Aside from "customizability", do you believe the Ultra "sounds" better? That really is the key for me.

Okay, now I am torn between two subs in the same price range. Craig or anyone else, what would you recommend for a room roughly 1775 cf. I am running Ascend Acoustics all around so these really need a good sub. I am looking at the Epik Valor or the Ed A5-350. I see where they score on the list and I have read about the amp issues with the Ed but I'm not sure if that has been blown out of proportion at this point or if the concerns are genuine. They seem to be new to home theater products and my listening will be 90% home theater use. Judging by looks alone I like the Valor. The weight difference is considerable between the two and part of me thinks that the heavier A5 would be better but I just don't know. Both are at my sweetspot for price. Help!

My Valor arrived this AM. FEDX stiffed me yesterday. I ran a quick setup and I must say I like this sub very much. Nice and tight, crisp and clean. I haven't had a chance to play much. I played some cuts from Opeth's The RoundHouse tapes to see how it would handle melodic metal and Helene Grimaud's Brahms Concertos with orchestra and the Valor handles them both with ease. It does go low. I will be able to say more once I have it fine tuned. The finish is much better than I anticipated. I normally don't like texture, but these guys do a fantastic job with it. It's not as small as I thought. I took some pics of it beside my Outlaw which it dwarfs but am not sure how I post them. My room is the same size as yours and I am running Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1's L/C/R and Usher S 520's in the back. It blends seamlessly with them. I have the crossover at 80 right now. I'll try some movies later and follow up. The subs a keeper at my house.

Anybody have experience with both the Valor and the Knight? I want it mostly for music but I'm also into HT and gaming. My sub has gotta do everything for me.

Aside from "customizability", do you believe the Ultra "sounds" better? That really is the key for me.

I would say the Ultra sounds better just based on all my research that I've read about it. It's almost (almost means very close btw) with the JL Fathom 113, a sealed, smaller, $5000 ($3500 US) sub. I haven't heard the Epiks - but I can't see them besting the Ultra for sound quality.

And the way I see it, if it could - people would be comparing all these subs to an Epik. Why is everything being compared to the SVS? Think about it!

That being said though, the SVS is quite a bit more expensive than all but the top end offering of the Epik (PB Ultra 13 I mean) and is it better than the Castle for that price? That's up to you to decide, it all depends on what you want your sub to do and how much you're willing to pay for it. If how it sounds is the "KEY" to you - it's a no brainer - get the Ultra - you'll be very happy with it!

My room is 3100 cu ft. 2 standard doorways (that cannot be closed), use 90%HT, Other equipment, Klipsch R7 speakers all the way around, and a Def. Tech 15TL Plus Sub. I am no audiophile, but I know I am missing some serious bass experience in the tight sharp mid bass range for sure.

Hey, that 15TL is no slouch if my years of experience with my PF1500 is any indication. With BFD equalization I've managed to get my sub almost flat to 16Hz. But I have no idea how much distortion is created in getting there. It's not without flaws, but I have enjoyed it immensely.

Greg

Aside from "customizability", do you believe the Ultra "sounds" better? That really is the key for me.

That's a question I can't answer. I personally chose the Ultra over the Tower/Castle because I think it's the better sub. If I had been waiting as long as you have though, I may not feel that way. I actually don't really like having to wait now, but I'm willing to because I think the Ultra is better.

I am looking to upgrade a home theater with either Aperion's 600 series (or Def Tech Mythos ST). Aperion has an S-12 subwoofer that I cannot find reviewed. The reviews for ED's A5-350 have been very positive. Is there any advantage staying with an all Aperion system or the A5-350 a better option.

Russ

And the way I see it, if it could - people would be comparing all these subs to an Epik. Why is everything being compared to the SVS? Think about it!

I like the comparisons so I can see how much more performance for your dollar you get with Hsu, Epik, and eD...

Hey, that 15TL is no slouch if my years of experience with my PF1500 is any indication. With BFD equalization I've managed to get my sub almost flat to 16Hz. But I have no idea how much distortion is created in getting there. It's not without flaws, but I have enjoyed it immensely.

Greg
Thanks for the input, I have read elsewhere in this forum that the 15tl was a joke, it sounds ok, but I have been in others homes with more cu ft and openings and when I listened to the patriot and pearl harbor, the mid bass sound and tightness is so much better. Now they are using nearfield placement and also had a svs pb12 plus/2 I believe.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing if
*my gear should be fine
*it is not my imagination
*which of the two HSU I should get per my original post
I have decided by research and your thread to purchase the HSU,
I cannot decide to get the vtf-3 mk3 or the vtf-3 ho:
Problem:
I spoke to HSU (great guys) he recommended the MK3, but the price is close enough I would buy the HO if anyone would tell me I would be happier or any benefits.
My room is 3100 cu ft. 2 standard doorways (that cannot be closed), use 90%HT, Other equipment, Klipsch R7 speakers all the way around, and a Def. Tech 15TL Plus Sub. I am no audiophile, but I know I am missing some serious bass experience in the tight sharp mid bass range for sure. I do not crank it up crazy loud but enough for impact and realism. I wanna hear that rumble of engines and such, the deep cracking noises and more the whole range of bass not just the deep low stuff.
Thanks for the answer in advance, sorry for the newb question and hope this was in the correct thread.
Onkyo 875 if that needs to be known.
Thanks Again

rTanton........There should be some reviews out there for the Aperion subs if you look hard enough. I believe they fared quite well, but I personally went a different route for my sub (SVS) to go with my Aperion 600s. When completing a surround system, it is paramount that you stick to the same brand and series if at all possible. For the sub though, you may choose whatever brand/model you want without worry. Good luck, there are many options to choose from (many of which are covered in this thread).

rTanton........There should be some reviews out there for the Aperion subs if you look hard enough. I believe they fared quite well, but I personally went a different route for my sub (SVS) to go with my Aperion 600s. When completing a surround system, it is paramount that you stick to the same brand and series if at all possible. For the sub though, you may choose whatever brand/model you want without worry. Good luck, there are many options to choose from (many of which are covered in this thread).

Thank you for your response!

I like the comparisons so I can see how much more performance for your dollar you get with Hsu, Epik, and eD...

I've read a lot about the Hsu as well - the HO with possibly an MBM module was actually my first choice - but they don't deal with Canadians anymore - so the HSU is out. And to be honest - I don't regret my decision in the least - thanks HSU - for forgeting about us Canucks :D

I would say the Ultra sounds better just based on all my research that I've read about it. It's almost (almost means very close btw) with the JL Fathom 113, a sealed, smaller, $5000 ($3500 US) sub. I haven't heard the Epiks - but I can't see them besting the Ultra for sound quality.

And the way I see it, if it could - people would be comparing all these subs to an Epik. Why is everything being compared to the SVS? Think about it!

That being said though, the SVS is quite a bit more expensive than all but the top end offering of the Epik (PB Ultra 13 I mean) and is it better than the Castle for that price? That's up to you to decide, it all depends on what you want your sub to do and how much you're willing to pay for it. If how it sounds is the "KEY" to you - it's a no brainer - get the Ultra - you'll be very happy with it! SVS has been around a while now great benchmark product. The Epik is the new guy in Subtown, and by the look of the the Epik thread and Craigsubs rankings the SVS empire may be toppled..Al

HSU's Canadian support has been garbage from day one, shame on them,

My Valor arrived this AM. FEDX stiffed me yesterday. I ran a quick setup and I must say I like this sub very much. Nice and tight, crisp and clean. I haven't had a chance to play much. I played some cuts from Opeth's The RoundHouse tapes to see how it would handle melodic metal and Helene Grimaud's Brahms Concertos with orchestra and the Valor handles them both with ease. It does go low. I will be able to say more once I have it fine tuned. The finish is much better than I anticipated. I normally don't like texture, but these guys do a fantastic job with it. It's not as small as I thought. I took some pics of it beside my Outlaw which it dwarfs but am not sure how I post them. My room is the same size as yours and I am running Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1's L/C/R and Usher S 520's in the back. It blends seamlessly with them. I have the crossover at 80 right now. I'll try some movies later and follow up. The subs a keeper at my house.

That's great news! I'm glad that your first impressions are good. Please keep us posted as you get more time with it. You can post pictures by first uploading them to a photo hosting site like photobucket.com or imageshack.com. Then all you have to do is cut and paste the image links into your posts here. I would like to see some pics when you get a chance. The only ones on the Epik site are those from a blog where they are testing them outside. The finish in those pictures appeared to be very nice and clean as your description suggests.

Craig,

I am on the "waiting list" for the PC Ultra; after reading some of the reviews here I am wondering if I might be better off getting the Epik Castle and applying the savings to another item? I am a bit disappointed in SVS so far as I was initially told my unit would be sent in late November. Now its mid-January. They're also offering a Radio Shack soundmeter and an Avia test disc for new orders but dont seem to want to answer my inquiries if "old" orders will get the bonus items.

The sub will be used along with my new Yamaha Z11 in a large basement theater. Any thoughts or suggestions on what will end up sounding the best between these 2?

That's my main reason for switching off of SVS (for now). I feel bad that they cannot meet their demand quickly. There are equal or better subwoofers out there for the money...I believe.

-ELmO

I would say the Ultra sounds better just based on all my research that I've read about it. It's almost (almost means very close btw) with the JL Fathom 113, a sealed, smaller, $5000 ($3500 US) sub. I haven't heard the Epiks - but I can't see them besting the Ultra for sound quality.

And the way I see it, if it could - people would be comparing all these subs to an Epik. Why is everything being compared to the SVS? Think about it!

That being said though, the SVS is quite a bit more expensive than all but the top end offering of the Epik (PB Ultra 13 I mean) and is it better than the Castle for that price? That's up to you to decide, it all depends on what you want your sub to do and how much you're willing to pay for it. If how it sounds is the "KEY" to you - it's a no brainer - get the Ultra - you'll be very happy with it!

1) How can you compare an epik subwoofer to something when you haven't heard an epik before. :confused:

2) You haven't heard people comparing subs to an Epik rather than SVS, because Epik Subwoofers opened its doors in August, 2007! :o

I own both Epik and SVS subwoofers...:cool:

-ELmO

1) How can you compare an epik subwoofer to something when you haven't heard an epik before. :confused:

2) You haven't heard people comparing subs to an Epik rather than SVS, because Epik Subwoofers opened its doors in August, 2007! :o

I own both Epik and SVS subwoofers...:cool:

-ELmO

To be honest Elmo - I'm not talking Epik - I'm talking EVERYTHING. Whether it's the Paradigm, JL Fathom, Epiks, eD's, Velodyne's, - and I'm sure you've seen the measurements - everything around here is being compared to the PB13. And last I checked, the PB13 has been around since, what, August 2007 :rolleyes:

SVS has been around a while now great benchmark product. The Epik is the new guy in Subtown, and by the look of the the Epik thread and Craigsubs rankings the SVS empire may be toppled..Al

That's quite a statement. Personally I think the opposite is true. You have a 13.5" speaker in the PB13 matching or closely matching 15"-18" woofers in much larger boxes. Now that is some serious engineering that everyone can agree with. Plus the different wood grains they offer make their PB13 much easier on the eyes and WAF. That alone will get many PB13 into a home and at the same time keep Epik and eD monsters out.

I wouldn't be surprised that if SVS found they needed to up their game due to these new larger monsters, you will see a 15" or larger woofered box from them in the coming years and then watchout, because they are meticulous in their R&D and may just come out with something putting them back on top again.

^^^ The Castle isnt very large and is equal in performance to the PB13...Larger box but smaller price...I am sure you cant lose with either....Al

Hey, that 15TL is no slouch if my years of experience with my PF1500 is any indication. With BFD equalization I've managed to get my sub almost flat to 16Hz. But I have no idea how much distortion is created in getting there. It's not without flaws, but I have enjoyed it immensely.

Greg

the 15TL is a ported sub with a cheaper driver/cabinet that can barely get down to 45hz +/- 3db

the PF1500 is a sealed sub with a beefy MDF cabinet that can easily reach down to the low 20s

the PF1500 goes way back to the early 90s (first generation subs)

the TL line was an attempt at smaller "budget" subs (15TL was $699) but the TL line was quickly replaced by the supercube line. the TLs were "boomy" and didn't go very low. i had the 18TL and took it back the next day

i caught the subwoofer bug in the mid 90s and bought 6 of the original sealed PF1500s

even though i'm in the market for something new, i'd like to see what they could do with some EQ

i have more headroom than i could ever use from the low 20s up

^^^ The Castle isnt very large and is equal in performance to the PB13...Larger box but smaller price...I am sure you cant lose with either....Al

Where were you guys when i posted the sizeeasy links to the castle vs svs pb13 ultra. They are damn near the same size. True the pb13 has a smaller driver but if its in the same (or similarly) sized box i'm not sure why that is a benefit. The pb13 benefits from having other finish options though, that is true. The conquest is considerably bigger than the pb13 but the castle is like 2 inches taller but not as deep or wide if i remember correctly. Overall volume was very similar, with the ultra being slightly larger i think.

PB13, Conquest, or Castle...We are all winners to have subs in this price range that can outgun a 15K Velodyne 1812 or Genelec... and by a lot...Al:):):):D

1) How can you compare an epik subwoofer to something when you haven't heard an epik before. :confused:

2) You haven't heard people comparing subs to an Epik rather than SVS, because Epik Subwoofers opened its doors in August, 2007! :o

I own both Epik and SVS subwoofers...:cool:

-ELmO

I sort of agree here. I have not heard either sub, and am trying to make an intelligent choice based on what I've read posted by other knowledgeable people on the net. SVS has one heck of a product in their PB13-Ultra. From the sound of it, Epik is making a very BIG splash with their new products. To me, Epik just hasn't been around long enough for me to feel comfortable buying from them. One huge advantage Epik has right now is that they are getting their products out the door unlike SVS with the Ultra unfortunately. This is only a temporary thing though concerning SVS (I hope). I really prefer the Ultra for many many reasons right now, so that is why I have chosen it over the Epik stuff. I've had my eye on an Ultra for several months. The various tuning modes and PQ really appeal to me.

PB13, Conquest, or Castle...We are all winners to have subs in this price range that can outgun a 15K Velodyne 1812 or Genelec... and by a lot...Al:):):):D

Yes, competition is GOOD for the consumer here!

craig,
what subs do you have at your home now? and which one you use most?

Elmo, How do you like your Epik? Is it the Conquest? Post your impressions of how it so far for us...Thanks...Al

You people are talking about SVS and Epik as if there was no ED. ED is a match for Epik for price/perfomance, if not even outedging it. There's 2 subs on the line from them to be tested and put on this list. I'd also be interested to find out how many people are buying either right now.

You people are talking about SVS and Epik as if there was no ED. ED is a match for Epik for price/perfomance, if not even outedging it. There's 2 subs on the line from them to be tested and put on this list. I'd also be interested to find out how many people are buying either right now. If that eD a7-900 worked in my space I would have ordered it..It is only 200 more than the Conquest with shipping...Al

The beauty of this is that we have an ever-increasing number of true HIGH-PERFORMANCE subs from different companies at very reasonable (for those of us w/ the addiction, that is) prices, and I have no doubt that the new BMF and MFW-15 will be players as well in the near future. Having a group of companies trying to outdo each other at these great pricepoints just make me wish I could do one thing...

HAVE MORE HOME THEATERS! :D

As it is right now, I have SVS in my main HT, and just ordered an A5-350 for my home office (I'm still drooling thinking of that sucker in an enclosed 1300 ft^3 space :D), and I am currently debating between getting a Hsu, Epik, or AV123 (though I will wait for craig's evaluation before pulling the trigger on that MFW-15) for my secondary HT.

What I really want is a high-end room for each of these behemoths. Of course, what I was considering (as I don't have that capability) is very dangerous -- mixing and matching in each room w/ multiples from different companies, w/ different drivers and qualities. It just seems like a recipe for failure (and, to a certain degree, a waste of each sub's talents) to do such a thing.


SOMEBODY STOP ME!! EVERYTHING IS JUST SO AFFORDABLE!! :D

In order to help out a few forum members who needed subs for Christmas, the A5-350, Conquest and Castle have been sold.

The PB-13 Ultra has been moved back into the larger theater, and I am waiting notice of the shipment of the MFW-15.

Beyond that, eD is back ordered, and we probably won't see anything else from them until March.

I left Chad a message on Wednsday about getting a Knight or Caliber to test, and have not heard back.

We may be quiet around here for a while. :)

MFW-15's in captivity: http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=27472 :)

craigsub,

Any rhyme or reason for hanging on to the PB-13 Ultra and selling off the others? What about that casket with drivers? (A7-900)

Jim ... The three purchasers had specific budget and performance goals in mind, and the Ultra did not quite match up for them.

It is still one of my favorite subs, and after several weeks of the Conquest and Castle, it will be fun having it back in the system.

I am considering getting a Hsu VTF-1 to try out, just for kicks.

Jim ... The three purchasers had specific budget and performance goals in mind, and the Ultra did not quite match up for them.

It is still one of my favorite subs, and after several weeks of the Conquest and Castle, it will be fun having it back in the system.


Inevitably people will be reading between the lines. ;)

...

Beyond that, eD is back ordered, and we probably won't see anything else from them until March.

...


Craig, what subs are you planning on getting from eD, if I might ask?

Craig, what subs are you planning on getting from eD, if I might ask?

Probably the A7-450. For $1300 delivered, it has a chance on being a real standard bearer, in terms of performance.

Probably the A7-450. For $1300 delivered, it has a chance on being a real standard bearer, in terms of performance.


Does that mean you think that it will be close to the Conquest, performance wise?

i can't wait for your take on the MFW-15. The early feedback has been extremely positive.

Does that mean you think that it will be close to the Conquest, performance wise?

That means it has a chance of being close. It will be fun to find out HOW close. :)

^^^^ That will be a battle of 2 monsters...I bet the PB13 and or the Conquest may slip down a notch on the ratings...Al

In order to help out a few forum members who needed subs for Christmas, the A5-350, Conquest and Castle have been sold.

The PB-13 Ultra has been moved back into the larger theater, and I am waiting notice of the shipment of the MFW-15.

Beyond that, eD is back ordered, and we probably won't see anything else from them until March.

I left Chad a message on Wednsday about getting a Knight or Caliber to test, and have not heard back.

We may be quiet around here for a while. :)

Craig,

As you have been of the few (lucky) to audition the Ultra and the new Epiks, would you wait for a PC-Ultra or drop it and get an Epik? A tough question for sure, but your thoughts at least on how you'd make the call would be appreciated. It seems like forum members are pretty split on the subject right now.

Craig, is your house ever "quiet"? :D.

He has multiple set-ups in multiple rooms...someone is playing something somewhere ;)
And then there is his future home of "Manland".

Craig, are you talking about this little guy?
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1.html


I'd love to see some results on that sub just for the hell of it :D

Probably the A7-450. For $1300 delivered, it has a chance on being a real standard bearer, in terms of performance.

I never really noticed. But the amp I have (Keiga 52100 (http://www.keiga.com.tw/product-2.html) actually looks different than the picture on their site) is actually the same amp used by eD for the A7-450, and A7-900 (linky (http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=2_106&products_id=500)) :eek:

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/logos/LT1300_logoLARGE.jpg

Mine looks just like this..exactly...and it happens to be a Keiga as well with the same power ratings (sorta...eD is claiming 1,300 RMS @ 4 ohms, while mine can do 1,200 RMS @ 4ohms) But they sure look identical in every way.

Thats so cool! I didn't realize the amp I have had for years and years is actually still being used...and being used for really powerful setups like the A7-900 (since eD likes to use it..must mean its darn good). I feel really proud to own such a good product, I still am really surprised.

And I am glad my amp is going to be able to give me rock solid performance with the insane sub that Chad is building me :) Man...this is so cool!!

Would it be possible to get an updated list with all the most recent scores posted? Or even better, could the first page be updated to have the most recent and up-to-date scores posted?

Jon

Would it be possible to get an updated list with all the most recent scores posted? Or even better, could the first page be updated to have the most recent and up-to-date scores posted?

Jon

Um, the first page is updated but not the first post... look at post #8

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136

Craig,

As you have been of the few (lucky) to audition the Ultra and the new Epiks, would you wait for a PC-Ultra or drop it and get an Epik? A tough question for sure, but your thoughts at least on how you'd make the call would be appreciated. It seems like forum members are pretty split on the subject right now.

I missed this question. That's a decision along the same lines as size, finish, price .. etc .. a call each will have to make on his/her own.

Post # 8 with the rankings was edited by Craig on Dec 23 2007. It's as up to date as it gets!

craig, any chance of ranking any of the outlaw LFM-1 series? How comparable are they to the HSUs?

this should be pinned

craig, any chance of ranking any of the outlaw LFM-1 series? How comparable are they to the HSUs?

Good idea. I will call them tomorrow and see if they want to be added to the list here. :)

Um, the first page is updated but not the first post... look at post #8

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136

Post # 8 with the rankings was edited by Craig on Dec 23 2007. It's as up to date as it gets!

Awesome! I'm sorry I didn't notice that. With these massive threads I try to read very quickly so I failed to notice the updated date of the posting.

this should be pinned

I definitely second that! I wanted to say a big thank you to Craig as well as others here for all the tremendous work that has gone into this! Wonderful stuff.

Jon

this should be pinned

everyone who wants it pinned, should pm the mod and suggest it.

craig, any chance of ranking any of the outlaw LFM-1 series? How comparable are they to the HSUs?

Outlaw had their subs designed by Dr. Hsu, so outlaw subs do share a lot common with HSU's own offerings. Currently I own a LFM-1 (which is considered a STF-3 clone by many) with a few minor differences including down firing ports (vs rear firing of STF-3) and aesthetics (LFM-1 comes with a smoked plexi-glass top) and has must better construction quality as well.

It is rated for 25 hz +/- 2db but is really capable of delivering usable output down to about 22 hz in most small to medium sized room with room gain.

I have been putting some thought into this ... I have a lot of unpublished data and notes about the subwoofers we have tested here, including max output levels at 20 Hz and up, plus averages from 20-63 Hz, for most of the subs.

These are 2 meter Groundplane figures, too.

I don't want to take up page after page of bandwidth in order to post a bunch of graphs, but was rather thinking of a summary of each subwoofer, based on the notes of the listening panel plus the max 20 Hz and average 20-63 Hz output levels.

This could all be done this week on the summary post (#8), and give measured data and listening impressions all in one place.

Any thoughts ?

that sir, would be outstanding...

Craig, if you have the time to put that data together we would eat it right up! Thanks.

That's an excellent idea Craig.

Outlaw had their subs designed by Dr. Hsu, so outlaw subs do share a lot common with HSU's own offerings. Currently I own a LFM-1 (which is considered a STF-3 clone by many) with a few minor differences including down firing ports (vs rear firing of STF-3) and aesthetics (LFM-1 comes with a smoked plexi-glass top) and has must better construction quality as well.

It is rated for 25 hz +/- 2db but is really capable of delivering usable output down to about 22 hz in most small to medium sized room with room gain.

You've got the compact? And I think you mean the STF-2 since there is no STF-3

Any thoughts ? http://bestsmileys.com/signs7/14.gif

Guys ... At the bottom of the summary page, I posted a sample, using the A7-900.

Let me know what you think. And some of the subs .. for example, the X-Sub, won't be rated this way ... they just don't have a 20 Hz capacity.

Guys ... At the bottom of the summary page, I posted a sample, using the A7-900.

Let me know what you think. And some of the subs .. for example, the X-Sub, won't be rated this way ... they just don't have a 20 Hz capacity.

Spruce it up a bit, make it flasher, with more colors and pizazz! think PINK! :p;)






.

...whatever you do, I'm sure we will all enjoy it.

Happy NEW YEAR!! :D

Guys ... At the bottom of the summary page, I posted a sample, using the A7-900.

Let me know what you think. And some of the subs .. for example, the X-Sub, won't be rated this way ... they just don't have a 20 Hz capacity.

That's a very good start. Maybe for the little subs you can mention output at say 30 or 32hz if you have that data.

Craig,

Great thread I've been lurking in for a while.... I was dead set on the MK3 but am going with the eD 350 instead.... based on your review and other posts I've read.

A suggestion on your rankings, perhaps you could list the date of your review beside each ranking, because I had to search for 25 minutes to find the right post on the 350..... Just a thought

I think using phrases such as "very easy to live with" would result in more questions. Are we talking large form factor or smooth sound quality?

I think using phrases such as "very easy to live with" would result in more questions. Are we talking large form factor or smooth sound quality?

I clarified that sentence. Thanks. :)

Great job, you misspelled package on #4 though.

I believe the summaries are a great addition. Thanks.

Would it be too much to add at what bottom frequency the sub was able to stay within +-3dbs?

Would it be too much to add at what bottom frequency the sub was able to stay within +-3dbs?

I would like to second this request if it's not too much trouble! :):)

craig, any chance of ranking any of the outlaw LFM-1 series? How comparable are they to the HSUs?

Good idea. I will call them tomorrow and see if they want to be added to the list here. :)

Craig,

How about the new subs from Emotiva when they become available? Two 12" seal woofers, an Emotiva amp, and auto room correction seems like a sweet deal for the price.

Thanks for all the good info!

any thoughts on where the eD A3-300 would fall on this list? thx

any thoughts on where the eD A3-300 would fall on this list? thx

My guess would be 0 to 1 points more for music and ~2 more for HT.(over the A2-300)

and minus 10 points for delivery...:(

Was going to place order today, but got the "6-8 week delivery" response (or minus 1 day unfinished at same cost). Now I'm thinking about the Valor, or building my own A3-300 from eD parts.


My guess would be 0 to 1 points more for music and ~2 more for HT.(over the A2-300)

They have become quite popular.

craigsub
1. the summary is beneficial, please include this info where possible
2. thanks for your efforts
3. best wishes for the new year

Any thoughts ?

Why limit the posting to this forum? I'm sure there are free wikis or webspace available. And I suspect someone on here has web space with an ISP that they'd be willing to donate.

- Jasen.

While deciding on a permanent place appropriate for something like this, I'll offer web space and bandwidth because I'm already paying for it. Doesn't need to be final but at least we could get it up there. If you wanna do that just PM me.

You've got the compact? And I think you mean the STF-2 since there is no STF-3

No, I got the regular/Non compact version. And yes I mean STF-3 (there used to be one before being discontinued by Hsu). STF-3 was just like original VTF with the sub being tuned to a single frequency (25 Hz).

Hey great update to your post Craig. Its nice to be able to 'one-stop shop' and see all the results for the subs.

Since it would be nice to see the results as originally posted about any specific sub. I am thinking about going through the thread and grabbing all the links to those specific posts for each sub. Then maybe you could simply just edit the links into your post next to the sub ratings. You ok with that?

Craig, can you add pricing next to the brand/model? It's a lot easier to compare if the pricing is there vs. scrolling back and forth. Thanks for the summaries, excellent stuff.

edit - Just to clarify - I'm asking if you wouldn't mind adding prices to the new summaries.

The prices are already there. Right after the name. then the scores

The prices are already there. Right after the name. then the scores

I'm referring to the new summaries. There's no price info to compare them directly right there, it's easier than scrolling up to check every price.

hope you don't mind, I did some formatting work on your list


Here is the Scoring Summary with the Home Theater Score and Music Score, respectively shown as (HT-M).

Prices and whether the items are available Internet Direct (ID) or from a store (BM) are now included. Keep in mind that ID pricing will usually be firm, or slightly discounted, where some ID products will see substantial discounts.

BM = Brick and Mortar. ID = Internet Direct. ID/SI = shipping included.

Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2000 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 Driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID) 105 points (57-48)
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Acculine A-sub ($289 ID/SI): 85 points (provisional, currently out of production) (40-45)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)
Rocket Tyke: 60 points (If you care, PM me ... :))

Pending Subwoofers ...

AV123 BMF ... Not sure of date
AV123 MFW-15 ... Not sure of date - Unit should ship week of 12-17

*: The Hsu MBM-12 has been tried with several subwoofers here. We found it to be a good room solution, for times when the best placement with a subwoofer for the deep stuff did not necessarily give the best performance in the 50-80 Hz area. We could not come up with a consistent way of scoring it with the other subs, including the VTF-3 HO. Instead, it is suggested to be look at as a possible enchancement to any subwoofer package.

Listening Procedures:

All listening us done under blind conditions. The panel of listeners include several very experienced audiophiles, some of whom also design and build high end pro audio speakers. The subwoofers were each placed in the identical room position, and eq'ed to have a farly flat (3 dB window) response curve from 18 Hz and up, when the subwoofer was able to go that "low".

Measuring Procedures:

All measurements are taken at 2 meters from the front baffle of a subwoofer. In the case of a ported sub, the microphone is placed so it is 2 meters from the center of the driver(s) and port. The posted measured results are max "clean" 20 Hz output and the average from 20 to 63 Hz. If it seemed like the amp was the limiting factor in output, "AL" is added to the 20 Hz SPL.



1. Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2000 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)

Listening Results:
This subwoofer has almost no weaknesses. It presents everything from the deepest pipe organ and movie bass spectaculars to a hard driving bass guitar with an effortless quality that is the best we have heard to date. On the WOTW machines emerge scene, there was nothing but waves of bass that one felt rolling through the room. The standard Steely Dan 2AN disc was tight, tuneful, and the 18 Hz bass present in this disc was easily felt, yet the upper bass regions were agile.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 113.5 dB AL ... 20-63 Hz average: 118 dB AL


2. Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52)

Listening Results:
This subwoofer is hard to distinguish from the A7-900. Once again, pipe organ, the WOTW scene, bass guitar - were all played effortlessly. It is not quite at powerful, nor as visceral, as the bigger eD sub, but it is also an easier sub to live with for some rooms, because it is not quite as large as is the eD.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 111.5 dB AL ... 20-63 Hz average: 116.5 dB AL.


3. SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)

Listening Results:
This subwoofer delivers incredible performance from a moderate sized box. It is almost on par with the larger Conquest and eD subs in terms of delivering palpable bass, and it is as articulate as the standard bearer Fathom 113. A great choice when one is looking for a combination of reasonable WAF and performance.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 107 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 113.5 dB


4. Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)

Listening Results:
Another subwoofer of reasonable size which also gives a terrific performance. It loses some in articulation to the SVS, but also has a bit more authority on powerful movie scenes. It is a solid choice when one wants a large slice of the Conquest/A7-900 performance in a package that is easier to live with.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 108.5 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 115.5 dB


5. Creative Sounds DIY Dual SDX-15 ($1630 ID) 105 points (57-48)

Listening Results:
After carefully adjusting for a proper shelving curve (kudos to Mark Seaton for the tutorial on the 2496), this subwoofer gave a credible performance. The only real downside is that the new Castle from Epik is a superior performer in a smaller package for less money and no labor required.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 104 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 115 dB


6. JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)

Listening Results:
The built in ARO system makes calibration into one's system a snap. The Fathom allows the well heeled audiophile to get an unmatched combination of powerful bass and extension with bass quality that matches the finest monitor speakers, all in a package that will fit in a room of high quality furniture. The panel of listeners was shocked that something so compact could deliver such visceral bass. This is the first subwoofer that delivers on the promise of small size with true subwoofer performance.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 102 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 112.5 dB


7. Definitive Technology Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48)

Listening Results:
The Trinity surprised a few listeners by being much musical than a dual active 14 and quad active 14 inch drivered sub "should". Its music weakness was above 60 Hz, and this sub is a total performer when used with a 50-60 Hz crossover. For home theater, no sub here delivered a better performance on the machines emerge scene from WOTW, while Steely Dan's 2AN was almost as good as the Elemental Design's delivery.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 109 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 115.5 dB


8. Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)

Listening Results:
The big Velodyne was our original standard bearer here. It is a beast above 25 Hz, and is the ultimate in "plug and play", in regards to its auto eq. The DD-18 is still worthy of consideration, but it is eclipsed by many newer offerings.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 95 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 109 dB


9. ACI Maestro (2nd edition) ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)

Listening Results:
The ACI shares a lot with the DD-18. At the time we teste it, it was a spectacular performer. It delivers a solid 25 Hz floor, with a roll off below that. It does not handle the WOTW scene as well as a $2400 subwoofer should, but on music it is stellar.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 95 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 108 dB (note, these #'s are a lot lower than the original Maestro. At the time of the original Maestro, I measure @ 1 meter from center of enclosure, or about 18 inches from driver, and achieved 107 dB).


10. Elemental Designs A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)

Listening Results:
The eD surprised a lot of the panel with its ability to retain excellent music scores. It is another sub that loves the 2AN disc, and most were impressed when they find out it was a $715 subwoofer. It also handles the WOTW scene with a lot of power and floor shaking ability. It does not quite match the more expensive subs in articulation, but for $715, it is a bargain.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 105 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 111 dB.


11. JL Audio F-112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)

Listening Results:
From 25 Hz and up, it is impossible to tell the difference between it and the Fathom 113. It is an outstanding compact subwoofer. The general concensus, though, was if one was going to buy a 112, spend the extra $$$ and get a 113.

Measured Results: Not measured. Sorry, somehow this slipped past us.


12. Hsu VTF-3HO (With and Without Turbo) With Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47), Without ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)

Listening Results:
For a subwoofer package of $900 to $1000, the Hsu VTF-3 HO was, at the time of its release, the standard bearer in its price range. It is exceptional on music, and delivers slam on HT which will impress anyone used to what is noramlly purchased for more money at a store. The Turbo adds extra heft below the 20 Hz standard for a true subwoofer, and the Hsu is a solid choice even today for someone looking for a relatively compact subwoofer.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 101-102 dB (depending on configuration) ... 20-63 Hz Average ... 108 dB


13. Hsu VTF-3.3 (With and without Turbo)

Listening Results:
The VTF-3.3 is very close overall to the VTF-3 HO. It is exceptional for its price, in terms of its output and visceral feel. For music, it is unmatched in its price range - or was, until the Epik Valor came along. This is a subwoofer that goes beyond its measured numbers, and for its often quoted sale price of $629, an exceptional value.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 100-101 dB (depending on configuration) ... 20-63 Hz average ... 107 dB


14. Epic Valor

Listening Results:
The Valor is a subwoofer which will be the answer to many budget audiophile's dreams. It is an exceptional musical performer from about 18 Hz and up, with a very agile presentation of bass at all times. In our smaller basement theater, using a pretty good high end set up, it amazed listeners in its presentation of the Steely Dan 2AN disc, and also with its slam for HT. It is not an SPL monster like the Castle, but in the right room, it is magic.

Measured Results: 20 Hz... 99 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 109 dB


15. SVS PB-12 Ultra

Listening Results:
A terrific subwoofer considering its 2002 design. It remained competitive in the $1200 - $1500 arena until 2007, when it was replaced by the PB13-Ultra. The "old" Ultra was at one time a standard bearer for performance, and remains a solid mid pack subwoofer today.

Measured Results: 20 Hz ... 102 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 109 dB


16 Axiom EP-500

Listening Results:
The EP-500 was one of the first subwoofers to stress linearity across its frequency band. What is somewhat ironic is it sounds more like the baby brother to the new PB-13 Ultra than do smaller SVS models. It is capable of surprising amounts of bass slam, and is excetionally articulate for music. Its down side is that is current price is rather expensive for the performance. Its up side is it is quite compact, and an excellent choice when space is a consideration.

Measured Results: 20 Hz ... 97 dB ... 20-63 Hz average ... 107 dB

Wow, I absolutely love your formatting work DrPainMD, well done. And I really really like having the summaries Craig, they help shed additional light on the scores. Fantastic work. I can't wait to hear your impressions of the MFW-15. I'd also like to second the new Emotiva subs as a candidate for a future audition once they are released, they look like they could be a really nice option for a musical system.

Yes, kudos to Craig. The mini reviews help tremendously.http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o258/slide51k/t.gif

Nicely done, guys.

Now just add a field for "Size" (dimensions) and another for "WAF Appeal" and I think you're done. :)

Great job formatting DrPainMD.

WAF Appeal....I thought this was a science forum, lol.

Dr. Pain ... Very nice ! I have a lot of notes to go through yet, and should have some more notes on other subs by tomorrow. Not all the subs were tested outsie, either ... but most of those were the smaller ones. I do have PB12-NSD, Plus/2, PB10-NSD, Hsu VTF-3.3, and I think a few others, if memory serves.

Dr. Pain ... Very nice ! I have a lot of notes to go through yet, and should have some more notes on other subs by tomorrow. Not all the subs were tested outsie, either ... but most of those were the smaller ones. I do have PB12-NSD, Plus/2, PB10-NSD, Hsu VTF-3.3, and I think a few others, if memory serves.

well feel free to use it or not (if you quote my post, you will get all the vb code), or pm me with new info to be added as needed and I'll be happy to do it for you.

eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)

how come you have that on the list but ED site shows $650?
If they upped the price by $115 that would be quite a leap.

Prices on the majority of eD's subs went up as of January 1st, the A5-350 getting the biggest jump. There are now going to be 2 versions of the A5-350 (small amp or big amp) that I think was going to be at the $650.00 price point.

Heres the info:
A5-350 (350w Amplifier) : 350w option to be added Jan 1st, 2008.
Currently : N/A
Will Go Up To : $650.00

A5-350 (550w Amplifier) : Product Page Here
Currently : $600.00
Will Go Up To : $715.00

But that still includes the shipping cost.

I think a $115.00 jump is reasonable considering where its falling between.....

9. ACI Maestro (2nd edition) ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)

Listening Results:
The ACI shares a lot with the DD-18. At the time we teste it, it was a spectacular performer. It delivers a solid 25 Hz floor, with a roll off below that. It does not handle the WOTW scene as well as a $2400 subwoofer should, but on music it is stellar.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 95 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 108 dB (note, these #'s are a lot lower than the original Maestro. At the time of the original Maestro, I measure @ 1 meter from center of enclosure, or about 18 inches from driver, and achieved 107 dB).


10. Elemental Designs A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)

Listening Results:
The eD surprised a lot of the panel with its ability to retain excellent music scores. It is another sub that loves the 2AN disc, and most were impressed when they find out it was a $715 subwoofer. It also handles the WOTW scene with a lot of power and floor shaking ability. It does not quite match the more expensive subs in articulation, but for $715, it is a bargain.

Measured Results: 20 Hz: 105 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 111 dB.


11. JL Audio F-112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)

Listening Results:
From 25 Hz and up, it is impossible to tell the difference between it and the Fathom 113. It is an outstanding compact subwoofer. The general concensus, though, was if one was going to buy a 112, spend the extra $$$ and get a 113.

Measured Results: Not measured. Sorry, somehow this slipped past us.

how come you have that on the list but ED site shows $650?
If they upped the price by $115 that would be quite a leap.

The 550 watt amp, which what was on the unit I had here, adds $65, making the price $715. They offer the 350 watt amp for $650.

Any update on this Craig? I am interested in the LFM 1 EX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kip_
craig, any chance of ranking any of the outlaw LFM-1 series? How comparable are they to the HSUs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigsub
Good idea. I will call them tomorrow and see if they want to be added to the list here.

Help me choose Craig! Epik Valor ($601), LFM-1EX ($629), eD A5-350 ($650)... shipped prices. I prefer size and looks of Valor and Outlaw, but without HT rating on Outlaw, I'm stumped. Really don't want to wait 2 months and I dislike the A5 finish. I was going to do a DIY sub, but figured by the time I had it done it might be 3 months! Any plans to review the LFM-1EX? For 90% HT I'm sure the Ed is the choice, just having a hard time with "ugly". If the EX came up with a 45 HT score, that'd likely be my choice.

Help me choose Craig! Epik Valor ($601), LFM-1EX ($629), eD A5-350 ($650)... shipped prices. I prefer size and looks of Valor and Outlaw, but without HT rating on Outlaw, I'm stumped. Really don't want to wait 2 months and I dislike the A5 finish. I was going to do a DIY sub, but figured by the time I had it done it might be 3 months! Any plans to review the LFM-1EX? For 90% HT I'm sure the Ed is the choice, just having a hard time with "ugly". If the EX came up with a 45 HT score, that'd likely be my choice.

The A5 reviewed is now $715. Personally, I'd go with the Epik Knight if I was buying something in the $600ish price range today.

Help me choose Craig! Epik Valor ($601), LFM-1EX ($629), eD A5-350 ($650)... shipped prices. I prefer size and looks of Valor and Outlaw, but without HT rating on Outlaw, I'm stumped. Really don't want to wait 2 months and I dislike the A5 finish. I was going to do a DIY sub, but figured by the time I had it done it might be 3 months! Any plans to review the LFM-1EX? For 90% HT I'm sure the Ed is the choice, just having a hard time with "ugly". If the EX came up with a 45 HT score, that'd likely be my choice.

Tcat,

Be careful with the new price structure of the A5-350. It was 600$ before the increase. That was with the LT550 amp. They are now offering two different amp with this model. Evaluation by Craig was done with the the 550 amp. The price for this one is 710$.

As for the finish, you can order your A5-550 unfinished. You need to call for this option though.

Hope it helps clear that up.

BR

Help me choose Craig! Epik Valor ($601), LFM-1EX ($629), eD A5-350 ($650)... shipped prices. I prefer size and looks of Valor and Outlaw, but without HT rating on Outlaw, I'm stumped. Really don't want to wait 2 months and I dislike the A5 finish. I was going to do a DIY sub, but figured by the time I had it done it might be 3 months! Any plans to review the LFM-1EX? For 90% HT I'm sure the Ed is the choice, just having a hard time with "ugly". If the EX came up with a 45 HT score, that'd likely be my choice.

Is there any reason you are considering 2 ported subs and 1 sealed unit? One would assume that you would be looking at same types. Have you looked into the Epik Knight? Its is a ported unit more akin to the ED A5-350 the Outlaw. If you don't like the finish of the ED, the Epik's finish seems to be a little more classy. I keep telling myself to order the Castle, but am always looking for that 'greener grass'.

Reason for considering the Valor (sealed) is that it has the same HT rating as the A2-300 (44), and with the 15" driver probably sounds better than the Outlaw. I'm coming from a Paradigm PDR-8, so almost ANYTHING sound better. I think the Knight is just too big.

Any update on this Craig? I am interested in the LFM 1 EX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kip_
craig, any chance of ranking any of the outlaw LFM-1 series? How comparable are they to the HSUs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigsub
Good idea. I will call them tomorrow and see if they want to be added to the list here.

I did get a response from Scott at Outlaw. He is going to check with Peter Tribeman and see how/if they want to be involved.

As soon as I hear something, it will be posted. :)

Is there any reason you are considering 2 ported subs and 1 sealed unit? One would assume that you would be looking at same types. Have you looked into the Epik Knight? Its is a ported unit more akin to the ED A5-350 the Outlaw. If you don't like the finish of the ED, the Epik's finish seems to be a little more classy. I keep telling myself to order the Castle, but am always looking for that 'greener grass'.


What is the difference between ported vs sealed subwoofer(I Know physical) I am asking more about sound related.

What is the difference between ported vs sealed subwoofer(I Know physical) I am asking more about sound related.

Simple answer, ported is louder, sealed not as loud, but sound better.

Detailed answer, a ported sub will be louder than the sealed at (or around) it's port tuning frequency. A port sacrifices SQ for SPL because a port may add port noise, boominess, etc. Although a well designed ported subwoofer can eliminate boominess if it's tuned below lower than 25Hz because we can't hear much at or around that frequency. Port noise can also be minimized (it can't be eliminated) by using a bigger and flared port. A well designed ported sub like the PB13 can sound as good (or better) as a sealed sub while adding the extra oomph at the extreme low frequencies.

A sealed sub sounds better than a ported sub because it doesn't produce the audible artifacts that the ported sub produce. It has a more gently sloped FR, and a better group delay. A sealed sub usually have a limited low bass extension and volume. A larger enclosure can enhance the low frequency extension and volume. Other ways to improve extension is EQ and low Qts driver. But those method doesn't increase volume, and distorts quickly as volume rises.

Sorry cheng, but I just don't agree with the sealed is better myth. The PB/PC13 Ultra models disproved that one.

Is it easier to get it close with a sealed? Sure. Is it an absolute? No.

p.s., the crazy aunt in the attic that nobody talks about in relation to sealed suibs is that once you get below about 25hz, distortion starts rising exponentially at spirited volumes in even the 'best' ones.


Tim

Sorry cheng, but I just don't agree with the sealed is better myth. The PB/PC13 Ultra models disproved that one.

Is it easier to get it close with a sealed? Sure. Is it an absolute? No.

p.s., the crazy aunt in the attic that nobody talks about in relation to sealed suibs is that once you get below about 25hz, distortion starts rising exponentially at spirited volumes in even the 'best' ones.


Tim

That's a pretty good point. Even with the superb f113, the distortion begins to take off over 100db.

Sorry cheng, but I just don't agree with the sealed is better myth. The PB/PC13 Ultra models disproved that one.

Is it easier to get it close with a sealed? Sure. Is it an absolute? No.

p.s., the crazy aunt in the attic that nobody talks about in relation to sealed suibs is that once you get below about 25hz, distortion starts rising exponentially at spirited volumes in even the 'best' ones.


Tim

I'm not saying which is better, I'm saying that both type of enclosure, if well designed, can be excellent performers. I simply stated the general fact about ported and sealed enclosures. The PB13 is an example of a superbly designed ported sub that produces excellent SQ like sealed sub while still hits the lows like crazy. The f113 is an example of an excellent sealed sub that produce excellent SQ for music and visceral in movies.

In my experience each design, sealed and ported, shows itself bests in rooms with different characteristics. The room gain in small closed rooms closely offsets the natural rolloff of sealed subs while the stronger bottom end of a good ported sub holds up better in large open rooms.

Sealed subs are king. Take a look at the results for DIY sealed subs here. Ilka's test is about as objective as you can get.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638322

Wouldnt it be easier to see the results with graphs instead of tables

Sealed subs are king. Take a look at the results for DIY sealed subs here. Ilka's test is about as objective as you can get.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638322Say what? The king there is an 18" with 2x 18" PR (not sealed). The higher rated sealed subs are 18" or dual 15". Then there is the lowly 13" Ultra (ported). So who is king?

Something to add to your formatted list DrPainMD. You should add the driver size and type of enclosure. Some subs like the PB13 and f113 is worth noting their driver size. Something like S13.5'' for a f113 would be nice. (S for sealed)

Yeah and then may be watts and box dimensions too while we're at it

Sealed subs are king.

Overly simplistic blanket statements aren't very useful. They mislead more than they inform. Sure, various DIY sealed subs with significantly more displacement can outperform ported subs, but so what. The Epik Conquest and the eD A9-700 aren't even included in those tests, so as good as Illka's testing methods are, these test results are not comprehensive in terms of representing the majority of subs on readily available on the market today.

The SVS PB13U remains in the top 5 for both "low bass" and "ultra low bass" ranking. It is ported and utilizes a driver that's "only" 13 inches in diameter. For the "ultra low bass" category it occupies 3 of the top 7 slots! Also note that 4 of the top 7 subs in that category are ported.

And you haven't even addressed cost, availability, practicality (i.e. size or WAF), commercial product versus DIY, etc.

Sealed subs are king. Take a look at the results for DIY sealed subs here. Ilka's test is about as objective as you can get.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638322

Interesting that those DIY sealed subs that are king are all outperformed by the ported 13Ultra at 20hz.

The SVS's performance is astonishing for a 13'' driver. Wait until they design a 15'' or 18''.:D

Interesting that those DIY sealed subs that are king are all outperformed by the ported 13Ultra at 20hz.

Notice how quickly the ultra falls off below its tuning frequency...

Sealed subs are king. Take a look at the results for DIY sealed subs here. Ilka's test is about as objective as you can get.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638322

do you even know how to read tables and graphs?:rolleyes:

LLT's and LMS+PR's are raping any sealed alignment on that list. who is king again?

Notice how quickly the ultra falls off below its tuning frequency...

Which tuning frequency? At 15 hz tuning, the Ultra is +/- 3db to 13.5hz. Show me a sealed sub that can do that without massive EQ.

I see the "new" SVS PB12 fairly high on that list (not sealed)... but then the Epik Valor Sealed is higher on Craigsub's list (at less cost)... what gives the Valor a higher rating? Anyone have any low end readings on the Valor? The Valor seems a very good deal at this point, even though I plan on using it 90% HT. DIY is also tempting, but I believe I'd be out more time and materials by the time I was done, and may not end up with as good a sub...


Sealed subs are king. Take a look at the results for DIY sealed subs here. Ilka's test is about as objective as you can get.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638322

I see the "new" SVS PB12 fairly high on that list (not sealed)... but then the Epik Valor Sealed is higher on Craigsub's list (at less cost)... what gives the Valor a higher rating? Anyone have any low end readings on the Valor? The Valor seems a very good deal at this point, even though I plan on using it 90% HT. DIY is also tempting, but I believe I'd be out more time and materials by the time I was done, and may not end up with as good a sub...

Are you talking about the PB12 Plus or NSD? The Valor has a larger diameter woofer and a more powerful amp than the NSD (but smaller than the plus) so it can probably play deeper.

Which tuning frequency? At 15 hz tuning, the Ultra is +/- 3db to 13.5hz. Show me a sealed sub that can do that without massive EQ.

20Hz (the one you mentioned)

Shows the NSD hitting 16hz at 96.8db, I doubt the Valor will hit that, so why is the Valor rated higher? Yes talking 12" vs. 15"... is it just louder at higher low frequencies?

Shows the NSD hitting 16hz at 96.8db, I doubt the Valor will hit that, so why is the Valor rated higher? Yes talking 12" vs. 15"... is it just louder at higher low frequencies?

Where can I learn more about Ilkka's methods? Specifically, were the sealed subs eq'd for his tests?

Also, Ilkka mentiones the NSD he tested was basically a hand picked unit from SVS sent specially for him to use on the test (they apparently didn't like the results Illka ended up with when he used a sub they sent to a customer.)

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/8144-subwoofer-tests-round-5-6th-october-2007-test-summary-read-me.html
SVS wasn’t totally satisfied with the performance (frequency response) of the customer owned PB12-NSD I measured on round 4 so they decided to send me a factory fresh unit this time. They say that the new frequency response is ok.

Sorry, something smells fishy in the state of Finland IMO if manufacturers are shipping hand picked units to the tester in order to get better results...

Interesting that those DIY sealed subs that are king are all outperformed by the ported 13Ultra at 20hz.

When I mentioned "20hz", I wasn't specifically referring to that particular tuning, but to the output at 20hz.

20Hz (the one you mentioned)

As far as the lower end measurements at the 20hz tuning, the sub still managed +/- 3 dB points to 16.4 Hz. Sealed subs can't even give a frequency response that hold up as well to that point without big EQ.

Sorry, something smells fishy in the state of Finland IMO if manufacturers are shipping hand picked units to the tester in order to get better results...

You telling me.:rolleyes:

Raises all kinds of questions from credibility of the test to performance drop off after a few months of use.

As far as the lower end measurements at the 20hz tuning, the sub still managed +/- 3 dB points to 16.4 Hz. Sealed subs can't even give a frequency response that hold up as well to that point without big EQ.

Somewhat stupid question. Why is EQ such a bad thing?

Somewhat stupid question. Why is EQ such a bad thing?

Good question.

Doesn't the analog to digital and digital to analog process adversely affect the signal?

Somewhat stupid question. Why is EQ such a bad thing?

Like anything else, it's a trade off. To get a sealed sub to show low end strength like the Ultra, huge low end boost would be required. That comes at the expense of valuable headroom and a with big increase in distortion. Without the aid of ports or passive drivers, a sealed sub has to use huge driver excursion to match the output of a ported sub. That can quickly push most subs to their limits when boost is applied.

On the other hand if used primarily for music, the sealed sub can do very well without any low end boost. Here most of the advantages of a ported sub begin to vanish. There is very little musical content below 30hz (pipe organ excepted).

Personally, I have sealed subs and ported subs all working together, but serving different purposees.

The SVS's performance is astonishing for a 13'' driver. Wait until they design a 15'' or 18''.:D

will they also put it in a box that's more appropriate for a 30" ?

Where can I learn more about Ilkka's methods? Specifically, were the sealed subs eq'd for his tests?

Also, Ilkka mentiones the NSD he tested was basically a hand picked unit from SVS sent specially for him to use on the test (they apparently didn't like the results Illka ended up with when he used a sub they sent to a customer.)

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/8144-subwoofer-tests-round-5-6th-october-2007-test-summary-read-me.html


Sorry, something smells fishy in the state of Finland IMO if manufacturers are shipping hand picked units to the tester in order to get better results...

Consumer Report is only group I know that buys the products they test. Every body else asks manufacturers to send them products to test. In other words, the practice is very common.

Consumer Report is only group I know that buys the products they test. Every body else asks manufacturers to send them products to test. In other words, the practice is very common.

Illka isn't a group, he's an individual. The fact that he had already tested an SVS sub and was sent a "new" one from SVS because they didn't like the results makes the results even more suspect. Makes you wonder if they offered to replace the underperforming sub for the customer who's sub was initially tested???

And Craig, if you start getting subs sent to you from manufacturers for testing could you please make a note of that? I know most/all of your tests up to this point have been purchased, but I think many people would like to know that a sub tested was hand picked by the company making them. I don't think you'll mislead, but I would not be surprised if a company took a little extra care on a sub that they know is going to be reviewed.

Illka isn't a group, he's an individual. The fact that he had already tested an SVS sub and was sent a "new" one from SVS because they didn't like the results makes the results even more suspect. Makes you wonder if they offered to replace the underperforming sub for the customer who's sub was initially tested???

And Craig, if you start getting subs sent to you from manufacturers for testing could you please make a note of that? I know most/all of your tests up to this point have been purchased, but I think many people would like to know that a sub tested was hand picked by the company making them. I don't think you'll mislead, but I would not be surprised if a company took a little extra care on a sub that they know is going to be reviewed.

I do always buy the subs ... and while it is in theory "possible" for a company to send out a "ringer", it would be difficult ... the drivers are all built to spec, as are the amps. I have seen the facilities for most of the companies, and they just don't have the time to test out a bunch of subs in order to send me a ringer.

Illka isn't a group, he's an individual. The fact that he had already tested an SVS sub and was sent a "new" one from SVS because they didn't like the results makes the results even more suspect. Makes you wonder if they offered to replace the underperforming sub for the customer who's sub was initially tested???

And Craig, if you start getting subs sent to you from manufacturers for testing could you please make a note of that? I know most/all of your tests up to this point have been purchased, but I think many people would like to know that a sub tested was hand picked by the company making them. I don't think you'll mislead, but I would not be surprised if a company took a little extra care on a sub that they know is going to be reviewed.

I think that you are reading a little more into this than what is actually there. I believe that the SVS was having a problem or was otherwise faulty. Besides, it did well, but still was nowhere near the top performers.

What does lend credibilty to the tests of the 13Ultra is the very close results from three entirely separate testing entities, Craig, Ilkka, and the AV Talk test. All of the numbers that can be compared are very similar to within a db or two. If you compare the graphs on Ilkka's tests and the AV Talk test, they are almost identical.

Talking about Illka on Craig's thread is trying to mix gas with flame ;). Use each as a resource and I wouldn't question either's integrity...let's move on.

I don't think Ilkka had a "bad" unit for his first test. Keep in mind, English is not his native language. SVS has upgraded the amp in the PB12-NSD ... I believe this occured in mid summer.

Rather than call it the PB12-NSD Series II, they just did it as a running change.

They sent Ilkka a newer unit, as that would be more representative of the subwoofer someone would purchase today.

To me, that is considerate on their part, not "bad". :)

The first PB12-NSD Ilkka tested was privately owned. When we saw the test data, we knew something was wrong with the amp (the FR was not correct). We got in touch with the owner through Ilkka and replaced that amp for the customer.

We discussed testing another PB12-NSD during his next test session. L-Sound (our Euro distributor servicing Finland) sent Ilkka a production PB12-NSD from their inventory. It was not tested before-hand, nor was it "hand-picked" in any manner.

It was interesting reading the graphs on the F113. It looks like a lot of distortion down low at high SPLs (and lots of compression), but if so, that was some of the nicest sounding distortion I've ever heard!! Several others who own or have heard that sub would say the same! I've yet to hear someone come out of a listening test with that sub and say "man, did you hear all that nasty distortion?". I recall the days when people used to say "listen with your ears, not your eyes". :D

I don't think Ilkka had a "bad" unit for his first test. Keep in mind, English is not his native language. SVS has upgraded the amp in the PB12-NSD ... I believe this occured in mid summer.

Rather than call it the PB12-NSD Series II, they just did it as a running change.

They sent Ilkka a newer unit, as that would be more representative of the subwoofer someone would purchase today.

To me, that is considerate on their part, not "bad". :)

We did indeed update the amp in the PB12-NSD several months ago, but that was not related to the problems exhibited by the first privately owned PB12-NSD Ilkka tested. Not even the older amp would have exhibited that kind of FR - something else was wrong with that amp - so we replaced it for the customer.

The PB12-NSD Ilkka tested did have the newer version of the amp, but it had already been shipping for quite some time and was in stock with all dealers.

The first PB12-NSD Ilkka tested was privately owned. When we saw the test data, we knew something was wrong with the amp (the FR was not correct). We got in touch with the owner through Ilkka and replaced that amp for the customer.

We discussed testing another PB12-NSD during his next test session. L-Sound (our Euro distributor servicing Finland) sent Ilkka a production PB12-NSD from their inventory. It was not tested before-hand, nor was it "hand-picked" in any manner.

Fair enough. It wasn't clear that a new amp went to the customer. The way it was explained sounded like a whole new unit was sent for to Illka specifically for his testing, not that the original was actually defective. I realize that to some this sounds nit picky, but most people can't audition these things like Craig and Illka and rely heavily on their findings, like it or not it's just the way it is, and transparency is important.

Fair enough. It wasn't clear that a new amp went to the customer. The way it was explained sounded like a whole new unit was sent for to Illka specifically for his testing, not that the original was actually defective. I realize that to some this sounds nit picky, but most people can't audition these things like Craig and Illka and rely heavily on their findings, like it or not it's just the way it is, and transparency is important.

Yep - that original FR was whacked, even for the old amp, so we just replaced it for the customer. The 2nd unit Ilkka tested was 100% production from dealer inventory. I agree it was important to clarify what happened with both units Ilkka tested so there was no misunderstanding - thanks iceperson.

Like anything else, it's a trade off. To get a sealed sub to show low end strength like the Ultra, huge low end boost would be required. That comes at the expense of valuable headroom and a with big increase in distortion. Without the aid of ports or passive drivers, a sealed sub has to use huge driver excursion to match the output of a ported sub. That can quickly push most subs to their limits when boost is applied.

On the other hand if used primarily for music, the sealed sub can do very well without any low end boost. Here most of the advantages of a ported sub begin to vanish. There is very little musical content below 30hz (pipe organ excepted).

Personally, I have sealed subs and ported subs all working together, but serving different purposes.


I have a homemade A7S-450 if you will. I have not done any EQing yet. So very unscientific opinion, but for what it is worth: I like the sound of my sealed setup, but it lacks the low umpf I had with my A5-350. So I am now considering adding a ported sub to the mix.

In order to help out a few forum members who needed subs for Christmas, the A5-350, Conquest and Castle have been sold.

The PB-13 Ultra has been moved back into the larger theater, and I am waiting notice of the shipment of the MFW-15.

Beyond that, eD is back ordered, and we probably won't see anything else from them until March.

I left Chad a message on Wednsday about getting a Knight or Caliber to test, and have not heard back.

We may be quiet around here for a while. :)



craig,

did you also sell the trinity?

The Trinity is still here.

which of the subs in the ranking do you have right now?

We have the A7-900, PB-13 Ultra, Trinity, Valor, PB12-Ultra, Dana, PB12-NSD, A2-300, and the BIC.

thanks for the info.

thanks for the info.

And the DIY dual 15 inch SDX-15, too. You are welcome.

The best part, my wife thinks it is so cool to have so few subs here now ... :D

And the DIY dual 15 inch SDX-15, too. You are welcome.

The best part, my wife thinks it is so cool to have so few subs here now ... :D



i think i love your wife...

And the DIY dual 15 inch SDX-15, too. You are welcome.

The best part, my wife thinks it is so cool to have so few subs here now ... :D

i think that's saying you need to order some more to play with :cool:

i think that's saying you need to order some more to play with :cool:

We have dual MFW-15's on order ... and I called Chad at Epik, but did not hear back.

Then we will look at the A7-450 from eD when they get caught up ... :)

We have dual MFW-15's on order ... and I called Chad at Epik, but did not hear back.

Then we will look at the A7-450 from eD when they get caught up ... :)

A while back you talked about testing the A7S-450. Have you decided not to test that one?

dude reread his post..he said he will get it soon..:rolleyes:

a7s-450 and a7-450 are different. Craigsub said the ported version. he didn't mention the sealed A7S, AFAIK

dude reread his post..he said he will get it soon..:rolleyes:

Actually, he had it right ... There is an A7S-450 ... the S is for sealed, then there is the A7-450, which is ported.

I talked to Alex, and he thinks they want the ported version tested next. :)

And yes, it is hard to tell the 2 models apart, based on the model #.

But are you going to test the sealed version too? May be I could arrange for mine to be shipped to you for testing? As long as testing doesnt put any wear/damage on the thing.

But are you going to test the sealed version too? May be I could arrange for mine to be shipped to you for testing? As long as testing doesnt put any wear/damage on the thing.

I am more concerned about shipping it 2 ways .. you are probably looking at $300 total in shipping.

Maybe we will do sealed and ported at the same time - it is more up to the eD gents, though. They need to get caught up from the "pre- Jan 1" order boom. I think they will be happy to sell me one of each by then. :)

I am also slated to get the upgraded amp for the PB12-NSD. Ed Mullen contacted me this morning, and they are shipping out a new amp ...

And, since that is occuring, I also contacted Dr. Hsu about the VTF-1 and to ask if there have been any "running changes" in the 2 years since getting the VTF-3 HO/Mark III.

Finally, I am waiting for Outlaw to respond - so we may have some noise this winter afterall ... :D

We have the A7-900, PB-13 Ultra, Trinity, Valor, PB12-Ultra, Dana, PB12-NSD, A2-300, and the BIC.

Any reason you still have those specific ones? Are they your favorites? Or are you planning to sell them as well.

Any reason you still have those specific ones? Are they your favorites? Or are you planning to sell them as well.

The A7-900 is staying, as it is the only sub that can do what I want in my detached "Man land" garage.

There is a gent who has inquired about the Valor, and it will also probably go. The Ulta matches the decor in one theater, and it does a terrifice job of delivering bass there ... and the remaining subs are going to gaming areas, an exercise room, and the Trinity into the high end basement theater to augment the LS-6's I have on order.

In other words, no particular reason ... :D

And, since that is occuring, I also contacted Dr. Hsu about the VTF-1 and to ask if there have been any "running changes" in the 2 years since getting the VTF-3 HO/Mark III.

Finally, I am waiting for Outlaw to respond - so we may have some noise this winter afterall ... :D

What did the Dr. prescribe?

What did the Dr. prescribe? He said "take two MBM's and call me in the morning." :cool:

I've been reading most of the subwoofer post and topics on this forum for a couple of months now. They all have been very helpfull for me in making a decision for my next subwoofer purchase. I've been using a Sunfire Signature
for about six years. I blew it up twice, and Sunfire has been great about rebuilding and up dating it for me. It's just time to get something more suited for my room and speakers. I was all set to buy JL Audio's F113 untill I started
reading here.
I almost ordered eD's A7-900, but I decided to order Epik's Conquest instead.
It appears to me that Epik uses better drivers and amps then eD does. As you know, eD uses the LT/1300 plate amp in the A7-900. They sell this amp for $350.00, meaning that they may pay about $150.00 for it. That is really one cheap amp to be using in a quality subwoofer.
If I find that a single Conquest isn't enough sub for my room I'll just have to try two of them.

I'm glad that I found this forum before buying the F113.

The A7-900 is staying, as it is the only sub that can do what I want in my detached "Man land" garage.

There is a gent who has inquired about the Valor, and it will also probably go. The Ulta matches the decor in one theater, and it does a terrifice job of delivering bass there ... and the remaining subs are going to gaming areas, an exercise room, and the Trinity into the high end basement theater to augment the LS-6's I have on order.

In other words, no particular reason ... :D

Dang, sounds like you have a pretty large house with lots of rooms...and a sub for each one (what about the bathrooms ;)) So basically when you get new ones, you just frequently swap them out in the different areas for different kinds of bass and or for some change?

I've been reading most of the subwoofer post and topics on this forum for a couple of months now. They all have been very helpfull for me in making a decision for my next subwoofer purchase. I've been using a Sunfire Signature
for about six years. I blew it up twice, and Sunfire has been great about rebuilding and up dating it for me. It's just time to get something more suited for my room and speakers. I was all set to buy JL Audio's F113 untill I started
reading here.
I almost ordered eD's A7-900, but I decided to order Epik's Conquest instead.
It appears to me that Epik uses better drivers and amps then eD does. As you know, eD uses the LT/1300 plate amp in the A7-900. They sell this amp for $350.00, meaning that they may pay about $150.00 for it. That is really one cheap amp to be using in a quality subwoofer.
If I find that a single Conquest isn't enough sub for my room I'll just have to try two of them.

I'm glad that I found this forum before buying the F113.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you have no idea what eD pays for the amp, nor do you have any idea if Epik's drivers or amps are are "better" than eD's, or vice versa.

What did the Dr. prescribe?

By contact, I mean I emailed him, and am waiting for a response. :)

I almost ordered eD's A7-900, but I decided to order Epik's Conquest instead.
It appears to me that Epik uses better drivers and amps then eD does. As you know, eD uses the LT/1300 plate amp in the A7-900. They sell this amp for $350.00, meaning that they may pay about $150.00 for it. That is really one cheap amp to be using in a quality subwoofer.

From my experience w/ eD products over 2.5 yrs, they are NOT into big markups. They have been developing products, selling direct at a modest margin, and bringing great value to the car, and now HT, market. No question that getting these plate amps made in China is saving EVERY COMPANY a lot of money (and that's why we have so few manufacturing jobs in America anymore, but I digress). Go and read...and what you will find is that it is a group of "kids" who started building stuff, learned about business, used a great model, and are really moving forward. I think Ben just turned 25 or there abouts...

I have made multiple orders of eD products sight unseen, and have no complaints. I suspect I will have no complaints about my A7-900 once it gets built. As I mentioned in another thread, I also picked up a pair of their A6 tower speakers; I am still forming an opinion about them.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you have no idea what eD pays for the amp, nor do you have any idea if Epik's drivers or amps are are "better" than eD's, or vice versa.


From the website, a couple of observations. The plate amp appears to be an inexpensive Chinese job similar to the things that Parts Express sells. It is pretty inexpensive for an amp that has to drive two 18" units (?). These type of amps are for the low end audio market. Good quality subwoofer setups use either separate amps or the subs have custom plate amps usually made by the OEM directly. The woofers in the A7-900 are stamped basket design too, not so good. That said, I just don't think the value is as good as what Epik is offering.

For the same amount of money you can buy a Crown amp and two stout 18" drivers from a couple of different manufactures.

To me the Epik drivers just look better, but they don't give too much information about them either.

Both brands of subs offer nice performance for the money. Like I said before, I was prepared to pay almost twice as much for the F113. After reading your reviews, I'm going to take a chance on the Epik.

From the website, a couple of observations. The plate amp appears to be an inexpensive Chinese job similar to the things that Parts Express sells. It is pretty inexpensive for an amp that has to drive two 18" units (?). These type of amps are for the low end audio market. Good quality subwoofer setups use either separate amps or the subs have custom plate amps usually made by the OEM directly. The woofers in the A7-900 are stamped basket design too, not so good. That said, I just don't think the value is as good as what Epik is offering.

For the same amount of money you can buy a Crown amp and two stout 18" drivers from a couple of different manufactures.

To me the Epik drivers just look better, but they don't give too much information about them either.

Both brands of subs offer nice performance for the money. Like I said before, I was prepared to pay almost twice as much for the F113. After reading your reviews, I'm going to take a chance on the Epik.

This post is a classic example why I don't give results based on pictures and website information.

Try to find a single box sub that delivers more performance, after being completely built, boxed, and delivered to your house than does an A7-900, for $2200 including shipping.

When you do, let me know, and I will buy it, and send you $500 profit.

Of course, this will require that you test the sub against the A7-900. ;)

I understand what your saying. Before I heard about the F113, I started a parts list and was getting ready to build a sub.
You really like that A7-900, don't you! Maybe I should think about it again. It will fit into my room better then the Conquest, I don't like the 30" depth of the Conquest for my room.

I understand what your saying. Before I heard about the F113, I started a parts list and was getting ready to build a sub.
You really like that A7-900, don't you! Maybe I should think about it again. It will fit into my room better then the Conquest, I don't like the 30" depth of the Conquest for my room.

I really like the A7-900, the Conquest, the Castle, and the PB-13 Ultra. All are great subwoofers, with different strengths. For example, in your case, dual Castles are something to consider, too, for about the same $$$ as the A7-900.

Here are a couple of points from a post I made in this thread in December, 2006 ..



Other people may audition the same 2 subs and come to the opposite conclusion from mine.

Hopefully, over the next few months, as I get a chance to catalog a few more subs, it will become clear that this is merely an attempt to help people who are looking for a new subwoofer to wade through a lot of info fairly quickly.


We do measurements and blind testing, and hope it helps people ... but as for telling people WHAT to buy, I try to steer clear of that.

I *think* you would be happy with the A7-900 .. but keep in mind it weighs over 400 pounds. It is not easy to move around ... :eek:

I also *think* you would be happy with a pair of Castles, or a pair of Ultras ... and they are something to consider.

Craig do you ever plan on testing a JL Audio Gotham.

Actually, he had it right ... There is an A7S-450 ... the S is for sealed, then there is the A7-450, which is ported.

I talked to Alex, and he thinks they want the ported version tested next. :)

And yes, it is hard to tell the 2 models apart, based on the model #.:apparently I've been out of the mix since getting my plasma...sorry.

:apparently I've been out of the mix since getting my plasma...sorry.

No problem. I have owned an A7S-450 for a month and a half (love the sub) and I have been waiting for another poster to receive one so that I could hear his/her impression of it.

because I keep refreshing this thread but craigsub's new reply that his MFW-15s have arrived just won't show up! ;)

I just can't handle the pressure of waiting anymore as I too have one on order. :D I'm sure there are many of us who feel the same way. You can almost smell the collective angst, can't you? Or is that just me?:eek:

Thanks to Craig and friends for all your efforts. I can't wait to hear your thoughts.

Sorry to high-jack the thread, but it had to be said. Now back to our regularly scheduled intelligent discussion of subwoofers...

I doubt the Gotham will get tested - it is such an unusual subwoofer, I cannot see anyone looking to spend north of $10K giving a rat's rear end what I have to say. :D

The MFW-15 is supposed to have shipped this week, but I have not received notice.

No word back from Outlaw nor Hsu, either.

but but but, you're the only guy here capable (cha-ching) of getting a gotham! :)

craig,

love to see you test the eD dodecasub!

my pair of A7S' are still in the paintroom. hopefully will be shipped and in my house within the next week or so. can't wait.

We have the A7-900, PB-13 Ultra, Trinity, Valor, PB12-Ultra, Dana, PB12-NSD, A2-300, and the BIC.

I am loving the idea of the A7-900.

I am in limbo right now about possibly having to relocate but once I land or find out I am staying then I am grabbing at least one of them. :-)

Splotto

....I cannot see anyone looking to spend north of $10K giving a rat's rear end what I have to say. :D I hate to break it to you, but there are a number of people looking to spend south of $10K who don't give a rat's rear end what you have to say (insert rim shot here). :p ;)

(Apologies, my friend, but I couldn't let an opening like that, with such a beautiful straight line, go by :D)

Re: the Gotham, one should be able to extrapolate the performance from it's obvious similarity to a pair of stacked Fathoms. That's not to say that it will be identical to a pair of Fathoms, but I'll bet is isn't that far off.

I hate to break it to you, but there are a number of people looking to spend south of $10K who don't give a rat's rear end what you have to say (insert rim shot here). :p ;)

(Apologies, my friend, but I couldn't let an opening like that, with such a beautiful straight line, go by :D)

I was wondering which genius here would catch that set up. :p

There is a pretty good possibility that somebody who follows this thread has a Gotham but keeps a very low profile. Wouldn't it be awesome if he/she lent it to Craig for a weekend....so that we can enjoy it :)

Dual Gothams are a real treat, as are 7 Fathoms ;)...... I wish some of you could experience that. Hopefully some of you from other states can join us this spring in round two of the JL audio tour :)

There is a pretty good possibility that somebody who follows this thread has a Gotham but keeps a very low profile. Wouldn't it be awesome if he/she lent it to Craig for a weekend....so that we can enjoy it :)

Poorly vailed attempt to get someone to volunteer their Gotham. Well...anybody?? :D

Craig,

I have a request. Since most people that I know start their home theater with a relatively inexpensive HTIB. Do you think it would be possible to test one or two cheap subs from a HTIB? I think this could give a lot of people, new to Home Theater, a good reference point. I know that testing these subs probably wouldn't be a very enjoyable session, and you could probably find better things to do in your free time. So if you don't want to do it, it is very understandable.

But just out of curiosity, do you think this is something you would be interested in doing?

Craig,

I have a request. Since most people that I know start their home theater with a relatively inexpensive HTIB. Do you think it would be possible to test one or two cheap subs from a HTIB? I think this could give a lot of people, new to Home Theater, a good reference point. I know that testing these subs probably wouldn't be a very enjoyable session, and you could probably find better things to do in your free time. So if you don't want to do it, it is very understandable.

But just out of curiosity, do you think this is something you would be interested in doing?

I doubt it'll happen...BUT...it might not be a bad idea, if only to show how incredibly low they would score compared to the "real" subs on Craig's list. Seeing as the better HTIB subs would likely be scoring around 50 or less, and the worst ones might be down even lower, it could at least demonstrate how big a difference there is - might help out newcomers who have no idea about subwoofers and think they all do the same thing and perform similarly. Then again, most anybody who will read this huge thread about subwoofers likely will not be remotely interested in a HTIB subwoofer, as I'd imagine most people that follow this thread already know a good deal about subwoofers. Probably a case of preaching to the choir. If it weren't a waste of someone's time, it would be interesting to see, though.

A sub from a Home Theater in a Box ... That's interesting. The Tyke Audio 8 inch sub we have here is from the $399 system AV123 sold in 2004 ... Does anyone have suggestions on this ?

How about a series of tests on entry level subs say under $250? You could include low-level Velodynes, JBLs, Polks, Sonys, Cadence, etc.

Poorly vailed attempt to get someone to volunteer their Gotham. Well...anybody?? :D

Poorly...? There's nothing poorly veiled in what I said :D:D

It is a subtle but patent HINT that he who has a Gotham step up and share it so Craig can put it on it's paces so the rest of us can get a little insight on what it can do :)

Now, if JL will sell me one for 80% off; they can send it straight to Craig and I'll pick it up when he's done testing ;) Well are you listening Mr. Smith:cool:

Embarassing as it may seem; living vicariously through these tests done by Craig is both educational and enjoyable :o:)

Jl could be and should be concerned about how a Gotham might fare again certain subs in the $1500 to $2000 range.

I was specifically thinking of brands that fill BB and CC shelf space. Sony, Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, and now Klipsch.

I just know that when I was first interested in HT, I thought the only brands out there were the ones in those stores. And Because of the great setups in the stores, I didn't think there was a difference between most brands.

I didn't realize the Tyke came from a HTIB. I thought it might had been a first attempt at a DIY sub. :)

I am glad to hear that you are at least somewhat interested in doing this.

A sub from a Home Theater in a Box ... That's interesting. The Tyke Audio 8 inch sub we have here is from the $399 system AV123 sold in 2004 ... Does anyone have suggestions on this ?

Aren't the HTIB subwoofers sold only as a complete set with the corresponding set of speakers?
I was of the impression that these subs were not available for purchase as a separate item.

From my perspective, It seems like these things will have a very weak
pre-owned market and an economically unsound move for you :eek:
but please go forward if it can be executed without much suffering :)

Jl could be and should be concerned about how a Gotham might fare again certain subs in the $1500 to $2000 range.

Maybe, but maybe not.
Citing myself as an example; I have a f113 coming since it is the best compromise in my situation. I would have loved to have the A7-900 in our room but my wife loved the aesthetics of the f113 and after almost 25 years of marital bliss and her putting-up with my insanity; there was no way I was going to put that monster in "her house". Not that the thought didn't occur :D

Most are sold in sets but they are also small and should be relatively easy to ship. Maybe a few owners that are curious about the scores would ship them to Craig for testing. I have an Athena and a Denon that I could send over, since neither of them get much use.

Come to think about it - neither of these subs may make it into positive scoring territory though!:)

JD

Craig, what made you choose the 63 hz number for the upper bound? Wouldn't 60 or 80 hz make more sense being common crossover frequencies?

Craig, what made you choose the 63 hz number for the upper bound? Wouldn't 60 or 80 hz make more sense being common crossover frequencies?

I used 20, 25. 32, 40, 50 and 63... Rounding off, each is about 1/4 octave higher than the last. I left 80 out because it would give most subs a higher than deserved SPL, as 80 Hz is usually within 1 dB of the 63 Hz level.

I am thinking about this under $200 price level, too. The way this could work, since we have already done the H100 and X-sub ... Make the ceiling $200 delivered.

I did a little research with the Parts Express guys today .. and ended up ordering these 2 subs ... their best $100 and $150 units ....

1. AudioSource PSW100 10" Down-Firing Powered Subwoofer @ $99.90

2. Dayton SUB-120 12" 150 Watt Powered Subwoofer @ $148.00

I did a little research with the Parts Express guys today .. and ended up ordering these 2 subs ... their best $100 and $150 units ....

1. AudioSource PSW100 10" Down-Firing Powered Subwoofer @ $99.90

2. Dayton SUB-120 12" 150 Watt Powered Subwoofer @ $148.00

I noticed earlier that you had made mention that you felt that there were hardly any subs at your house now, being that you have sold some off. I take it you could not resist having less than 6 subs in the house at once :D This little sub $200 category should be interesting.....looking forward to it, better yet looking forward to the mfw-15's coming to you as I have one waiting for me...any day now.

Re: the Gotham, one should be able to extrapolate the performance from it's obvious similarity to a pair of stacked Fathoms. That's not to say that it will be identical to a pair of Fathoms, but I'll bet is isn't that far off.

Interesting comment given the different sized enclosure and overall design. Just curious what your extrapolation came up with. :)

I am thinking about this under $200 price level, too. The way this could work, since we have already done the H100 and X-sub ... Make the ceiling $200 delivered.

Celestion S-10 for $150 + shipping from Accessories4Less. 8" woofer powered with a 200 watt amp. Decent little package.

http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-bin/item/KEFS10BLK

Craig, I got to say that I am both surprised and impressed. First I didn't expect you to be that interested in testing some inexpensive subs. And second, I didn't expect you to order some just a few hours after asking about it.

I guess I should say thanks, and I can't wait to see the results. :)

I'm kinda curious about that little Audiosource model. Rocket Tyke vs PSW100 who will win? :)

I think the Velo VX-10 needs to get on this little ride too. For only...what...$150? I'd love to see what score it comes up with.

I am looking for the Epik Knight ranking. I can't find it Can someone hook me up with a link. TIA!

The Knight was not tested, that is why you couldn't find it.
My guess is that it would be close to the eD A5-350 in a few ways.

All I have to say is this is very comendable of you Craig. It gives those that don't have the funds/ability to buy the best subs an idea how the most basic and inexpensive subs compare to the big boys.

Keep up the good work, we all appreciate it :)

Celestion S-10 for $150 + shipping from Accessories4Less. 8" woofer powered with a 200 watt amp. Decent little package.

http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-bin/item/KEFS10BLK

The Canton sub is on order ... time to find the little Velo.

Craig, what room will you use for these smaller guys?
Oh and please keep me as updated as possible on the little red things. :)

They will be tested in our smaller theater in the basement. I don't think they will handle the upstairs room.

I was wondering which genius here would catch that set up. :p Why do I suspect there was more than a touch of sarcasm in your use of the term "genius." :o

I echo the praise your testing of some less expensive subs. There are many who would like the HT experience, but simply can't handle $500+ for a subwoofer. They understand they won't be getting the quality of more expensive subs. All they want is the best they can get within their budget. Eagerly looking forward to the results.

I am looking for the Epik Knight ranking. I can't find it Can someone hook me up with a link. TIA!

He hasn't tested the Knight. I'd guess 3-5 points higher on HT and same as music compared to the Valor.

Wow, I was about to come see if you had ever ranked the Dayton subs...

and the search pulled up the recent post...

Looking forward to that review and the MFW.

any way we could get your raw data or curves?

Erie...

Yeah, why not rate Dayton sub? They are quite favorable over DIY, don't your wonder how they compare? There are a few fully assembled subs from $89 to $838
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&CAT_ID=43&ObjectGroup_ID=620

Craig

I was on the phone with Dale at Epik yesterday and we were discussing the Valor. He had no idea that I used this forum, or any forums, yet he said as if I should know you or your work: "Even Craigsub said it was a great little sub."

I don't know if online forums are their primary form of exposure (they very well may be) but it just goes to show you how much of an impact these tests are having if a subwoofer company's representative expects a random customer to know of your work. Great job.

would gotham beat a7-900?

would gotham beat a7-900?

Buy a gotham and send it to Craigsub and we'll find out. Its only around 10K. :D

would gotham beat a7-900?

I doubt that. 2 PB13 can't beat the A7-900 (but close though), 1 f113 is not as powerful as 1 PB13, so 1 gotham can't beat an A7-900. It 2 18'' ported vs 2 13'' sealed.

Interesting comment given the different sized enclosure and overall design. Just curious what your extrapolation came up with. :)

How different is the design? It's a sealed sub with two woofers that are at least fairly similar to the ones in the f113 and they are in a box of roughly double the interior space with an amp that puts out less than double the power of an f113. Sound close overall to two Fathoms. Manville himself has said that the performance would be similar to a pair of Fathoms, but of course less placement flexibilty.

would gotham beat a7-900?

In what way?

Sound quality (articulation, representation of an acoustic stand up bass)?

H/T Slam (SPL's for gunshots, explosions)?

Decibel levels at certain frequencies?

If David Letterman threw one on top of another from a 10 storey building?

the gotham would probably win falling from a 10 story building (it looks fairly aerodynamic), but the person who dropped it would lose for sure
(KILL the guy who just dropped a $10,000 subwoofer!)

In terms of pure spl i'd bet the a7-900 has the edge for most frequencies but for sound quality the gotham would probably win hands down, especially when calibrated with the built in EQ features.

How different is the design? It's a sealed sub with two woofers that are at least fairly similar to the ones in the f113 and they are in a box of roughly double the interior space with an amp that puts out less than double the power of an f113. Sound close overall to two Fathoms. Manville himself has said that the performance would be similar to a pair of Fathoms, but of course less placement flexibilty.

Different sized enclosure with curved geometry, different amp, dual drivers, different internal electronics, different wiring, different shielding, different material composition internally ? Sounds similar is a very obtuse description. I thought you were talking about extrapolating data. I'm sure it will sound closer to a pair of Fathoms than a pair of other subs.

I did a little research with the Parts Express guys today .. and ended up ordering these 2 subs ... their best $100 and $150 units ....

1. AudioSource PSW100 10" Down-Firing Powered Subwoofer @ $99.90

2. Dayton SUB-120 12" 150 Watt Powered Subwoofer @ $148.00

Hope the little guys will have an appropriate venue to be judged by... ie; correct room size.

Craig, I posted this on the Epik forum but was wondering what you thought of this:

Just Maybe Epik will build a dual(2) 18" speaker setup that will compete with or even destroy the Ed A7-900. It would be interesting to see a competition like that. With (2) Epik 18's and maybe (2) 1300 watt bash amps, that would be the ultimate recking ball for demolition.

Craig, I posted this on the Epik forum but was wondering what you thought of this:

Just Maybe Epik will build a dual(2) 18" speaker setup that will compete with or even destroy the Ed A7-900. It would be interesting to see a competition like that. With (2) Epik 18's and maybe (2) 1300 watt bash amps, that would be the ultimate recking ball for demolition.

You could just order 2 Conquests ... The sub you suggest would likely weigh more than 500 pounds ... think of the baffle thickness required, and overalls size of the unit.

Putting 2 into one cabinet may actually cost more than buying duals.

$3198 for 2 Conquests ... pretty compelling.

Here is the room for the "little guy" shootout ..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/downsitting.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/speakers025.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/speakers022.jpg

It is far easier to drive than is the bigger room upstairs. I will be using a PB12-Ultra (90 point sub) for a barometer with them.

As an example, in this room, the PB12-Ultra delivered more SPL on WOTW than the Conquest did in the larger room, even though the Conquest is close to 10 dB more powerful overall.

Neat looking room. What kind of mains are those?

What happened to the Salk's? Weren't they in there?
Craig, I edited my post about keeping me updated. Should make a little more sense now, lol.

The pics here are over a year old .. The Salks are in there now. Those are ACI Sapphire XL's.

Gotcha! Since the Knight has not been tested, I am not going to ask how it would compare to a PB12 NSD, but, judging by the results of the Valor, I can only assume it would be better at the same price point.

I am not only concerned with sound quality of the two, but, also finish, amp quality and cabinet / driver durability. I want to make sure I don't spend money on an ugly junk cabinet with a p.o.s amp / driver. I would almost be inclined to go SVS, I have owned them before and know their name and reputation, Epik is the new kid on the block and a year from now are they still going to be in the game? I took the same chance with SVS when they first rolled out. ( literally, I had an 25/31 cs).

Craigsub, I think you are doing a good thing and it is neat to see that you are getting quite the reputation and buzz all over the net. You will be up there with Tom Nusaine in no time ;)

I've updated your results (1-03-08, #13-16) with my formatting.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12649502#post12649502

Here is the room for the "little guy" shootout ..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/downsitting.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/speakers025.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/speakers022.jpg

It is far easier to drive than is the bigger room upstairs. I will be using a PB12-Ultra (90 point sub) for a barometer with them.

As an example, in this room, the PB12-Ultra delivered more SPL on WOTW than the Conquest did in the larger room, even though the Conquest is close to 10 dB more powerful overall.

This is great. I love the fact that you will be comparing the new subs to the PB12-Ultra, since I own a PC12-Ultra. Gives me a good comparison to see if I want to upgrade! Or just find another PC-Ultra used.
Craig, What is the Cubic Feet of this room?
Any word on the MFW-15's? Did they ship yet? Thinking of maybe 2 of these to replace my PC.


Also, Any chance of you testing the new Emotiva Subwoofer setup....http://www.emotiva.com/index.html