You could just order 2 Conquests ... The sub you suggest would likely weigh more than 500 pounds ... think of the baffle thickness required, and overalls size of the unit.

Putting 2 into one cabinet may actually cost more than buying duals.

$3198 for 2 Conquests ... pretty compelling.

Craig, would a stacked pair of Conquests score equal, better or worse than a single A7-900?

The question goes for both HT and music scores. Thanks Craig.

Craig

I was on the phone with Dale at Epik yesterday and we were discussing the Valor. He had no idea that I used this forum, or any forums, yet he said as if I should know you or your work: "Even Craigsub said it was a great little sub."

I don't know if online forums are their primary form of exposure (they very well may be) but it just goes to show you how much of an impact these tests are having if a subwoofer company's representative expects a random customer to know of your work. Great job.

Craig has quite a bit of pull around here. And for good reasons. Back a little while ago, in one of my phone conversations with Chad at Epik, he had briefly mentioned how busy they were with a certain subwoofer of the Epik line. His reason why they were so busy making a lot of them, was due to one of Craig's recent reviews (and or praise) of that sub. (could have been the Castle or Conquest, I cant remember exactly.)

So yes, Craig influences sales quite a bit. Maybe a lot more than he thinks. (hail the almighty Craigsub! :D ;))

Craigsub, Was wandering if you ever gave a listen to the Definitive Technology Super Cube Reference and if so what are your thoughts on it with music and HT...

Thanks

Hey Craig,
How about the Polk PSW10 as a suggestion for your low-price shootout? They can be had for $180 at CC and $120 at Amazon. I know a lot of people have questions about this sub b/c they are given out for free around the holidays with $500 Polk purchases. I've seen numerous posts lately with questions about its abilities compared to subs like the BIC, X-sub, or STF-1. I got one a year ago, but probably won't be upgrading until I move out of a townhouse into a detached house. It provides more than enough output in my 15x17x8 unsealed room (given nearby neighbors), but extension is only into the 30s.

Edit: I don't know if this will help or hurt the chances of getting the PSW10 tested, but PULLIAM has one.

Fantastic reviews and chart ! Way to go,this is THE place for people to look where subs stand.

Looks like the big ED and Epik are must have subs.

Ears! Where have you been?

Fantastic reviews and chart ! Way to go,this is THE place for people to look where subs stand.

Looks like the big ED and Epik are must have subs.

Back from the dead! Welcome back...

I have been quietly reading about subs on this thread all year now(all 7 days of it) and finally decided to pull the trigger on the Epik Castle today. My question is when I get it, should I keep my old sub hooked up with it? My old sub is a 150w JBL SCS series 10 inch with frequency response starting at 30hz. Will it add, detract, or simply be drowned out by the Castle?

P.S. Thanks Craig for all the info on this thread.

I doubt your old JBL would bring much to the party.

Hello Craig,
I see that you don't have many big name commercial manufacturers on your list (by that I mean the retail outlet brands like Klipsch et al.). Does that mean they would rank lower than the lowest on your list? Or have you just not tested them at all? Or is it maybe somewhere in between?
Thanks

craig,

Anyword on the MFW-15? did they ship them yet?

I have been quietly reading about subs on this thread all year now(all 7 days of it) and finally decided to pull the trigger on the Epik Castle today. My question is when I get it, should I keep my old sub hooked up with it? My old sub is a 150w JBL SCS series 10 inch with frequency response starting at 30hz. Will it add, detract, or simply be drowned out by the Castle?

P.S. Thanks Craig for all the info on this thread.

Generally, intergrating two totally different subs is a nightmare.

I think I'd ebay the JBL and get it out of there.

I thought Velodyne, JL Audio and Def Tech would be considered three of the bigger players in the subwoofer world ... true ? ... I would look at something from Klipsch ... is there a subwoofer from them that is a contender ?

No word on the MFW-15 ... but no word on a lot of stuff, except that everyone is at some show in Vegas... :D

Fantastic reviews and chart ! Way to go,this is THE place for people to look where subs stand.

Looks like the big ED and Epik are must have subs.

I missed this one ... too much "Pulse" in another thread.

Ear .. welcome back ! How many subs do you have now ? :D

I thought Velodyne, JL Audio and Def Tech would be considered three of the bigger players in the subwoofer world ... true ? ... I would look at something from Klipsch ... is there a subwoofer from them that is a contender ?

No word on the MFW-15 ... but no word on a lot of stuff, except that everyone is at some show in Vegas... :D

The KSW-12 seems to be Klipsch I see in all the B&Ms. I think knowing how much better the subs on the list now are compared to this one would help a lot of people.

I doubt the KSW12 can come close to most of the subs craig has reviewed. It is 35 pounds and not even part of the reference series. The to sub offered by Klipsch now is the RT-12. Here are the specs.

RT-12d Specifications
frequency response 19-120Hz +/-3dB
amplifier power FTC Rated Power: 800 watts continuous @ <2% THD / Dynamic Power*: 2000 watts
maximum acoustic output 120dB @ 30Hz 1/8 space, 1m
drive components Ultra-high-excursion 12" (30.5cm) Cerametallic™ cone, front-firing woofer
Dual ultra-high-excursion 12" (30.5cm) Cerametallic™ cone, rear-firing passive radiators
amplifier BASH® digital hybrid
enclosure type Bass-reflex via dual rear-firing passive radiators
inputs L/R Line-level RCA jacks, USB 2.0
outputs L/R Line-level RCA jacks (passthru)
height 18.75" (47.6cm)
width 24" (61cm)
depth 21.75" (55.2cm)
weight 71lbs (32.2kg)
features DCS control and feature set w/ 5 system presets and ARC™ Adaptive Room Correction
finishes Cherry or Black Ash wood veneer
voltage 110/120 VAC 60Hz
export voltage 220 VAC 50/60Hz

I'd be interested in knowing how it stacks up.

I have been gone for a month and I just read about the Epik Castle, wow.

I got shipping notices - and all three under $150 subs are on the way.

Klipsch will also get a serious look in the next couple of weeks.

I know it is a little late, but what about some subs that are a little over $200 delivered?
Like:
Athena Technologies AS-P4100 Powered Subwoofer at tsto http://www.tsto.com/cgi-bin/TSTO.storefront/478303a1002e96522740ac10034105d7/Product/View/2723
I bought an Energy S10.2 sub from here for the same price and although not in stock now, it shows up occasionally. I have not been able to find too many reviews on it, so I would like to see how it compares for the price.
The athena also available here http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ATASP4100B

I thought Velodyne, JL Audio and Def Tech would be considered three of the bigger players in the subwoofer world ... true ? ... I would look at something from Klipsch ... is there a subwoofer from them that is a contender ?

No word on the MFW-15 ... but no word on a lot of stuff, except that everyone is at some show in Vegas... :D

Well, I hadn't heard of Def Tech much before, since they don't market in Bavaria, but in any case, I did write "not many", as opposed to "none".

And you are of course correct in referring to Velodyne and JL Audio as big players in the subwoofer world, but I was speaking more about the big players in the speaker world, who just happen to also manufacture subwoofers also.

I look forward to any tests like that, It would be good to see a comparison

Thanks

The klipsch THX ultra 2 subs are considered their best subs. They are sold with the speakers as a system so you can't just buy the subs, but there are always exceptions.

You can buy the Klipsch Ultra 2 subs without having to buy the other speakers. Two 12" drivers in two separate ported boxes, but you do need to buy the separate two channel amp to drive them. I've been told that they provide that punch in the chest feeling in the 40 to 50 Hz. range. http://www.klipsch.com

i know some one here was to get an epik knight, and a ed a5-350 for x-mas. whatever happened to that? did he do a comparison and i missed it? i have a a5-350 on order, since 12/5, but apparently ed is now having problems with the amps.they are awaiting parts, so i dont know how long that will delay my order? ed said 2nd week of jan. for arrival... i am wishing i would have just ordered a castle and been done with it. does anyone know how long it is now taking to get an epik?

I am going to jump in here and ask some opinions. Craig can respond if he likes but I know the many experts here can help me as well. Being a PJ guy, I do not spend as much time on the audio side of my system. I need a new sub. I am replacing dual NHT Sub 12s. They did OK but never even close to what I am thinking about here. First of all, I am trying to decide on 1 big sub versus 2 "smaller" subs. I have narrowed it down to 2 HSU 3.3 (HO and Turbo not an option) or 1 Epik Castle. Not really interested in the ED or SVS as they are too far out on production or are a bit too much for my price range. Fire away on opinions and the like but here are my main concerns. I only have 2 locations I can put subs. When using 2 subs in these 2 locations I get slightly more even room response but not enough to make me "have to have" 2 subs. Second, this is all about HT. This is a dedicated theater room and we do nothing but watch movies and TV. Now, will 2 91 rated subs get close to a 109 rated sub? How much room gain will I get from 2 subs in separate corners versus 1 Castle? I am leaning heavily to the Castle but just want to make sure before I drop the order on them. Any other things I am missing please let me know.

i know some one here was to get an epik knight, and a ed a5-350 for x-mas. whatever happened to that? did he do a comparison and i missed it? i have a a5-350 on order, since 12/5, but apparently ed is now having problems with the amps.they are awaiting parts, so i dont know how long that will delay my order? ed said 2nd week of jan. for arrival... i am wishing i would have just ordered a castle and been done with it. does anyone know how long it is now taking to get an epik?
Before Christmas, I got my Valor in about 10 days. If you give Chad at Epik a call, he'll let you know how long it will take.

Anyone know where I can get an Epik Valor in Canada? They only ship to the US it looks like?

Anyone know where I can get an Epik Valor in Canada? They only ship to the US it looks like?

Tru,

I also looked at Epik before I bought my eD 350. Per what you saw, I could not oder it on-line. You could call them to ask if they will. I did not call. Other than delivery time, I am quite happy with my eD. It really is a great product.

BR

Tru,

I also looked at Epik before I bought my eD 350. Per what you saw, I could not oder it on-line. You could call them to ask if they will. I did not call. Other than delivery time, I am quite happy with my eD. It really is a great product.

BR

Yes, Canadians can buy from Epik. I live in Calgary, Alberta and am currently waiting for my Castle to arrive. Their on-line order procedure won't work for Canadians but just phone or email them and they will be happy to process your order. BTW mine is coming via FEDEX ground and my total including EVERYTHING (even GST) will be 1252. Epik confers with FEDEX to determine all costs involved and discloses them to you for your approval before they will ship the sub. :)

The pair of MFW-15's have shipped via DHL ... The tracking # is not in the system yet, but I imagine we will see them early next week.

There is a PB-13 Ultra waiting their arrival ... :D

Awesome.

Craig, could you test one of the Bose systems? It will help shut a lot of Bose lovers up. Just buy one, test it, and return it since they have that 30 day trial. Could be very interesting.

The pair of MFW-15's have shipped via DHL ... The tracking # is not in the system yet, but I imagine we will see them early next week.

There is a PB-13 Ultra waiting their arrival ... :D


This will be a great comparison...I'm on the fence as to what to go for my next sub, replacing my 2 year old PC12-Ultra.
Curious to see how the PB-13 compares to dual MFW-15's. Could save me a few bucks if they equal out, $1500.00 vs about $1100.00 shipped....

And that Epik Castle looks tempting....so many choices....not much cash!:eek:

Craig, could you test one of the Bose systems? It will help shut a lot of Bose lovers up. Just buy one, test it, and return it since they have that 30 day trial. Could be very interesting.

I don't think bass module is sold seperately. Decent bookshelf will have more bass than bose

Craig....are you thinking of getting the Epik TOWER to test?

It claims to be better than the Castle in terms of Depth ( I just wonder how deep it can go)....I also wonder if it can match the Castles its 20-63hz SPLs that you found...

These subs seem to be very direct and stiff competition for the Ultra....only they are cheaper.

Why is that?

Craig....are you thinking of getting the Epik TOWER to test?

It claims to be better than the Castle in terms of Depth ( I just wonder how deep it can go)....I also wonder if it can match the Castles its 20-63hz SPLs that you found...

These subs seem to be very direct and stiff competition for the Ultra....only they are cheaper.

Why is that?

I would be more likely to test a Knight or Caliber.

SVS has more features in the Ultra, like the single band parametric and variable tuning, and also (this is opinion) has a sub which is easier to work into one's decor.

I could speculate about why Epik is cheaper, but regardless how careful I was in choosing words, such speculation would only serve to irritate some, so I will pass ... :D

Klipsch will also get a serious look in the next couple of weeks.


Craig, will you be testing the RSW-10D in these tests? I am looking at getting one, mostly becuase it is easy to get, in my price range, and matches my fronts. I was wondering if the sub would be good enough in a small 9'x9' room or if I should try to get a little bit nicer sub for that price range ($1200-$1600).

Canadian_Dude - I am not sure which Klipsch sub will find its way here. We have the MFW-15 pair, then the Canton, Audio Source and Dayton Subs for the under $200 shootout.

After those 4 are done this month, there will be 3-4 more for February.

Craig, could you test one of the Bose systems? It will help shut a lot of Bose lovers up. Just buy one, test it, and return it since they have that 30 day trial. Could be very interesting.

This could be interesting. I wonder what their legal team would say about their products being tested. :eek:

you could be famous after those "bose" reviews...next up Craigsub on 60 minutes! The whistleblower!

This could be interesting. I wonder what their legal team would say about their products being tested. :eek:

That depends on what the tester says. ;)

... or would it blow everyone away and score a 90! Hey, was that a pig that just fly by my window??

I say give it the ol' Pulse test.:D

I say give it the ol' Pulse test.:D

Now that is funny!!!:D

Craig, could you test one of the Bose systems? It will help shut a lot of Bose lovers up. Just buy one, test it, and return it since they have that 30 day trial. Could be very interesting. This could be interesting. I wonder what their legal team would say about their products being tested. :eek: Hmm? Based on the fact that you can't even get them to tell you the frequency response of their speakers (I called and asked them), I'd faint dead away if they agreed to anyone testing their products.

Everyone knows someone who has a Bose system, and hold their head high when they say it, so just go borrow one.

does anyone know if 2 svs pb-12-nsd would rank higher than an epik knight? i know the knight hasnt been ranked by craig. what does anyone think?

why not 1 nsd vs 1 knight? That's what the prices would suggest.

This could be interesting. I wonder what their legal team would say about their products being tested. :eek:

i have bose am-10s hooked up to my computer

when i run test tones, you can only hear them up near 40hz and maybe a few in the very high 30s

Canadian_Dude - I am not sure which Klipsch sub will find its way here. We have the MFW-15 pair, then the Canton, Audio Source and Dayton Subs for the under $200 shootout.

After those 4 are done this month, there will be 3-4 more for February.

Craig,

Did you order the Canton or the Celestion? If the Canton, which one? Most of the Canton's have low stock and may not be available if it's a gem.

Craigsub, I am eagerly awaiting the MFW-15 report so I can choose between getting 4 of them or just one Epik Conquest. I think that four 15's would have an amazing visual presence in the room, but the Conquest may go louder and lower than the array of MFW's. Can't wait for your opinion before I pull the trigger. Either way it should be an excellent upgrade as I currently have a Velodyne HGS-12 in my 3000 cubic foot dedicated theater room.:D

For output, the quad MFW's win hands down. Whether they would sound better, unknown.

4 MFW-15 or four of any decent sub would look good ^

Four Valors would be a good/bad plan. I just got mine today and I couldn't imagine 4 of them in the same room. It would sound amazing at first, but those little hairs in your ears that tell you what your hearing would be completely corroded away within a matter of days.

Four Valors would be a good/bad plan. I just got mine today and I couldn't imagine 4 of them in the same room. It would sound amazing at first, but those little hairs in your ears that tell you what your hearing would be completely corroded away within a matter of days.
True! I could see 2 Valors though, but even that would be pretty loud.

I'm anxiously awaiting the SUB-120 review, for budget bedroom setups or something I'm hoping it will be similar to the good bit more expensive BIC h-100...Thank you for doing what you do.

Tru,

I also looked at Epik before I bought my eD 350. Per what you saw, I could not oder it on-line. You could call them to ask if they will. I did not call. Other than delivery time, I am quite happy with my eD. It really is a great product.

BR


Where did you get the eD 350? Shipped or did you pick it up?

Craig,

Did you order the Canton or the Celestion? If the Canton, which one? Most of the Canton's have low stock and may not be available if it's a gem.

It is the Celestion S10. To make it really confusing, It is on the Canton page at the on line store, and the full model name is KEFS10BLK.

A Canton-Celestion-KEF ? :D

It is now showing low stock, and is an 8 inch sub, 200 watt amp, and stands 14.6 x 12.6 x 12.6 inches. The price is still $149.99

All 5 subs - the Celestion, the 2 from Parts Express, and the twin MFW-15's are on the way.

The Canton sub is on order ... time to find the little Velo.



All 5 subs - the Celestion, the 2 from Parts Express, and the twin MFW-15's are on the way.

Craig,

Do you still plan to test the Velodyne VX-10 along with the other small subs? I saw you mentioned it earlier, but haven't seen you mention it again. Just curious.

Craig,

Do you still plan to test the Velodyne VX-10 along with the other small subs? I saw you mentioned it earlier, but haven't seen you mention it again. Just curious.

I cannot find anyone selling the VX-10. One Call seems to have stopped selling it, but have the VRP-1000 @ $259.

I cannot find anyone selling the VX-10. One Call seems to have stopped selling it, but have the VRP-1000 @ $259.

Here you go...$144.95 + shipping.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/383364-REG/Velodyne_VX10_VX_10_10_150_Watts_Front_Firing.html

I'm curious to see your results...I owned one (now used by my parents), and thought for the money it was a great little sub. And not that you'll keep the Velodyne forever or care much about warranties, but B&H Photo is listed on Velodyne's website as an authorized dealer of the VX-10.

Here you go...$144.95 + shipping.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/383364-REG/Velodyne_VX10_VX_10_10_150_Watts_Front_Firing.html

I'm curious to see your results...I owned one (now used by my parents), and thought for the money it was a great little sub. And not that you'll keep the Velodyne forever or care much about warranties, but B&H Photo is listed on Velodyne's website as an authorized dealer of the VX-10.

Thanks !! The little Velo is ordered. :)

Thanks !! The little Velo is ordered. :)

:D. I await your testing to see how those little guys stack up.

yeah I also am interested in seeing some of them hooked up together, like a dual setup of similar performing units, some of us dont have perfect room setups so I've considered a sub in front and one in the rear to even it all out, especially at some of the budget prices of these units. Any chance of a similar test Craig?

Thanks !! The little Velo is ordered. :)



man... you're like the gandhi of subwoofers! you know... little subwoofers need love too! :D

little subwoofers need love too! :D

That's funny. Maybe Craig should add that after finding these little subs perform well.

so far, it looks like the Castle is the best bang for the buck

The Celestion, Audio Source and Dayton subs are all hooked up and running.

I spent about 20 minutes listening to each using some of the standard bass stuff ... First impressions are none of these approach the H-100 or X-Sub ... but we are keeping an open mind about it. :D

The Celestion, Audio Source and Dayton subs are all hooked up and running.

I spent about 20 minutes listening to each using some of the standard bass stuff ... First impressions are none of these approach the H-100 or X-Sub ... but we are keeping an open mind about it. :D

craig, Is bic/x-sub benchmarks for all these little ones?

Thanx

How about testing one of these little guys Here (http://www.earthquakesound.com/mini.htm)? The salesman at the store said it was a nice sub, but at 8 inches and 900 bucks I dunno.

craig, Is bic/x-sub benchmarks for all these little ones?

Thanx

I was originally going to use the PB12-Ultra. That, however, is not such a great idea.

It will be the H100 for a benchmark.

Will they still be ranked relative to the normal 100 point scale though? Could be confusing if two sets of benchmark numbers are used.

Will they still be ranked relative to the normal 100 point scale though? Could be confusing if two sets of benchmark numbers are used.

It will be the same scale ... I have the Ultra (12), Dana Sub and the BIC all ready for comparison puposes.

So far, the larger Dayton is showing some promise ... while the little AudioSource and Celestion sound ... small.

Sorry, I'm late to the small/cheap sub party! But how about Cadence CSX-12 or CSX-15?

I was originally going to use the PB12-Ultra. That, however, is not such a great idea.

It will be the H100 for a benchmark.


Craig, make sure You use the PB12-Ultra for comparison with the MFW-15 when you get them...I guess that would be early next week at this point?

Sorry, I'm late to the small/cheap sub party! But how about Cadence CSX-12 or CSX-15?

i am interested in the cadence line as well. i may see if i can audition them at a local home theater store.

Craig, make sure You use the PB12-Ultra for comparison with the MFW-15 when you get them...I guess that would be early next week at this point?

The two MFW-15's will be paired off against a PB-13 Ultra - and hopefully that will start tomorrow. DHL is showing the MFW-15's arrived at the Erie Depot this morning. :cool:

The two MFW-15's will be paired off against a PB-13 Ultra - and hopefully that will start tomorrow. DHL is showing the MFW-15's arrived at the Erie Depot this morning. :cool:

Wow, sounds like an interesting shootout ;)

The MFW-15's have arrived, and are safely in our heated garage. They will get unpacked and dialed into the system Saturday morning.

I can't wait to hear your impressions. I have had the new SVS PC-Ultra in my house and it was the best sub I have ever heard. I have two MFW-15's on order right now. So am very curious to see your results. Could be the difference of cancelling my order and going with the SVS or maybe even the Conquest.

Craig....Do you have plans to test a single mfm-15 or just the two against the pb-13 ultra?

I can't wait to hear your impressions. I have had the new SVS PC-Ultra in my house and it was the best sub I have ever heard. I have two MFW-15's on order right now. So am very curious to see your results. Could be the difference of cancelling my order and going with the SVS or maybe even the Conquest.

Two new 15's compared to that svs 12"....should be a stomping. I know two A5-350's or two Knights would. I think you'll be very happy with that upgrade.
Just my guess.

Two new 15's compared to that svs 12"....should be a stomping. I know two A5-350's or two Knights would. I think you'll be very happy with that upgrade.
Just my guess.

I don't think there's any doubt dual A5-350's, Knights, or MFW-15's would beat a single PC13 Ultra in SPL - especially colocated. The question is whether or not they would be as articulate and able to provide a comparable level of detail.

Not to speak for Craig, but I haven't seen any other subs tested and scored in pairs so you'd have to think he'll give his impressions of them as a pair and then also test and score the MFW-15 individually (at least I hope so).

I guess my question on testing the mfw-15 individually should have been worded a bit different. I'm sure Craig will test it individually what I am wondering is weather the individual test will be done first or will the shootout with the Ultra happen first?

Crag, which sub is your reference when comparing to new comers?

I can't wait to hear your impressions. I have had the new SVS PC-Ultra in my house and it was the best sub I have ever heard. I have two MFW-15's on order right now. So am very curious to see your results. Could be the difference of cancelling my order and going with the SVS or maybe even the Conquest.

i thhought you had an a5-350. if you had one why the svs? what were your impressions of the a5-350?

The two MFW-15's will be paired off against a PB-13 Ultra - and hopefully that will start tomorrow. DHL is showing the MFW-15's arrived at the Erie Depot this morning. :cool:

Sounds great,
I also would like to hear (read) your opinion of how a single MFW-15 compares to the PB12Ultra....

Really looking forward to your testing....

thanks again.

Not to speak for Craig, but I haven't seen any other subs tested and scored in pairs so you'd have to think he'll give his impressions of them as a pair and then also test and score the MFW-15 individually (at least I hope so).

Agreed, I'm sure Craig will score it individually, but it is helpful that he has 2 of them and for the price, it is nice to know how they stack up to the big boys (PB13Ultra, Castle, Conquest etc...)

Eagles, read up on your subs... Thats the SVS new Ultra13, with a 13.5 inch driver, more watts on the amp and a bigger enclosure then the old Ultras.

The MFW-15's have arrived, and are safely in our heated garage. They will get unpacked and dialed into the system Saturday morning.

Oh come on Craig can't you start tonight!:p

Later, Daman

We are back from the swim meet ... One MFW-15 is in the system.

Since AV123 sells them as singles and also in pairs, round 1 of the test will be as a single, $599 sub.

Round 2 will be as a "single" $999 sub.

WOW, that was a whole lotta reading. :)

Forget all after hello...Craig answered my question even before I submitted this post..

We are watching Pirates of the Caribbean, Part III ... (At World's End) ... and a single MFW-15 is so far impressive.

We have always liked Rocket speakers, but their subs have typically been a disappointment ... with the exception of the muscicality of the UFW-10.

With a single MFW-15, we are getting tight, deep, room rattling bass. There will be a lot more to come, but so far, very nice.

The build quality is also better than expected. It passes the knuckle test as well as any sub we have had, and the black finish is exceptional.

We are watching Pirates of the Caribbean, Part III ... (At World's End) ... and a single MFW-15 is so far impressive.

We have always liked Rocket speakers, but their subs have typically been a disappointment ... with the exception of the muscicality of the UFW-10.

With a single MFW-15, we are getting tight, deep, room rattling bass. There will be a lot more to come, but so far, very nice.

The build quality is also better than expected. It passes the knuckle test as well as any sub we have had, and the black finish is exceptional.

so far how does it compare to the epik valor? I am thinking of getting one or the other. Only thing is i don't really want to wait for the mfw-15! If its worth the wait i will wait.

We are watching Pirates of the Caribbean, Part III ... (At World's End) ... and a single MFW-15 is so far impressive.

We have always liked Rocket speakers, but their subs have typically been a disappointment ... with the exception of the muscicality of the UFW-10.

With a single MFW-15, we are getting tight, deep, room rattling bass. There will be a lot more to come, but so far, very nice.

The build quality is also better than expected. It passes the knuckle test as well as any sub we have had, and the black finish is exceptional.

Sweet...too bad the movie isn't all that great :rolleyes:. Then again, we've all endured War of the Worlds HOW many times just for the sake of bass?:o Keep the impressions coming Craig!

Sweet...too bad the movie isn't all that great :rolleyes:. Then again, we've all endured War of the Worlds HOW many times just for the sake of bass?:o Keep the impressions coming Craig!


I must have a pretty low threshold for bad movies. I thought War of the Worlds and Pulse were not nearly as bad as some of the movies I've inadvertantly found myself watching.

We are watching Pirates of the Caribbean, Part III ... (At World's End) ... and a single MFW-15 is so far impressive.

We have always liked Rocket speakers, but their subs have typically been a disappointment ... with the exception of the muscicality of the UFW-10.

With a single MFW-15, we are getting tight, deep, room rattling bass. There will be a lot more to come, but so far, very nice.

The build quality is also better than expected. It passes the knuckle test as well as any sub we have had, and the black finish is exceptional.

lol

I KNEW there was no way you were waiting until tomorrow to try out one of those suckers. :D

You never disappoint, Craig. Feel free to chime in w/ ANY more thoughts over the next few days while doing the listening. I get the feeling the A5-350 for my smaller room won't be shipping for another 4 or 5 weeks or so. There's still a chance I might switch over to the Marks' babies if they can hold their own.:)

I decided to start playing around with the Spectrum Lab software this week. Here is the LFE Feed from the Pulse DVD directly into my Mobile Pre (acting as a sound card) and into software:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/pulsescene.jpg

Talk about a torture test ... :eek:

I must have a pretty low threshold for bad movies. I thought War of the Worlds and Pulse were not nearly as bad as some of the movies I've inadvertantly found myself watching.

You mean there is a whole WOTW movie besides Chapter 5? :eek:

I decided to start playing around with the Spectrum Lab software this week. Here is the LFE Feed from the Pulse DVD directly into my Mobile Pre (acting as a sound card) and into software:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/pulsescene.jpg

Talk about a torture test ... :eek:

I see whats in your tabbed windows on the bottom...:p, anybody up for a bass thread with waterfalls! ;)

btw what time stamp is that part of the movie?

I see whats in your tabbed windows on the bottom...:p, anybody up for a bass thread with waterfalls! ;)

LOL ... And also looking at the weather forecast. For the next 48 hours, freezing rain, which translates into lots of subwoofer time.

I did not time stamp ... but if you look at the bottom of the screen, the area where the red-pink stripes start is the scene where she enters the computer room, and the pulses/heartbeats start.

LOL ... And also looking at the weather forecast. For the next 48 hours, freezing rain, which translates into lots of subwoofer time.

we had freezing rain last night, can you find the the time to do the scene after the "computer room" pulse, the one near the end.

Nice to see you playing around with speclab!

btw the waterfall thread has, or will be merged with my thread. So if you have any more waterfalls you want to add ... feel free to post them in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755493

I see whats in your tabbed windows on the bottom...:p, anybody up for a bass thread with waterfalls! ;)

btw what time stamp is that part of the movie?

That is an incredible chart......


umm, what is it ?:o

That is an incredible chart......


umm, what is it ?:o

notsure if this answers your question...


Thoughts on WaterFalls: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12524500#post12524500

Setup and Interpretations of WaterFall Charts: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12517791#post12517791

I decided to start playing around with the Spectrum Lab software this week. Here is the LFE Feed from the Pulse DVD directly into my Mobile Pre (acting as a sound card) and into software:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/pulsescene.jpg

Talk about a torture test ... :eek:

Cripes! That's pretty ridiculous. I wonder how it sounded in the studio where the sound was mixed and mastered and at what kind of level they were monitoring the mix.

I'll remind our engineers that we need to test this, but I can tell you that this kind of content is extremely rare for very good reasons.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

You mean there is a whole WOTW movie besides Chapter 5?

Scary, I've listened to so many scenes now with only the subwoofer playing, this was the only movie I thought that actually improved that way.:D

As for Pulse, that is truly scary. I mean, if those of us with Ultra's and F113's have to remember to turn down the volume at that particular scene (if we are listening to the movie at say -5 or -10), can this not simply destroy lesser subs if the owner's a) have it calibrated hot, which is typical, and b) have no idea they could damage their sub with certain signals? :confused: Or would most smaller/cheaper subs simply not even try to redproduce those signals as they are too low?

Craig, I think you need to test these monsters: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12783898&postcount=642

Craig,

Have you ever tested, or thought of testing, a Contrabass sub? There's a sub that has a lot of well deserved hype but to my knowledge has not had any real "measurements" testing done on it?

Craig,

Have you ever tested, or thought of testing, a Contrabass sub? There's a sub that has a lot of well deserved hype but to my knowledge has not had any real "measurements" testing done on it?
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/features/704way/index3.html

You're welcome! :)

Here is the Heartbeat scene, comparing the PB13-Ultra to the MFW-15. This is with the Ultra set to the 20 Hz filter, with 2 ports blocked, vs. the MFW-15, which has no adjustments.

Both of these represent the point at which any additional volume caused the subwoofers to make that "unwanted" noise.

The MFW-15:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/MFW15Heartbeat.jpg

The PB13-Ultra:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/pulsheart1020.jpg

Two new 15's compared to that svs 12"....should be a stomping. I know two A5-350's or two Knights would. I think you'll be very happy with that upgrade.
Just my guess.

It is the new SVS PC13-Ultra that I had in my house for a weekend. There is no comparison to the 12 which I have also heard. The PC13-Ultra floored me with it's sound quality and output.

i thhought you had an a5-350. if you had one why the svs? what were your impressions of the a5-350?

Had is the key word. I sent it back. I made the mistake of having the A5-350 at the same time I had the SVS. So I decided to go with the best that is out there so I never had to worry again. Don't get me wrong, for the price, the A5-350 is an absolute steal, I can't believe what I was hearing from a $600 sub but the SVS was just in a different class and $1000 more expensive. :)

Keith Yates's subwoofer shootout of 2004 was the best work of its kind, ever.

I just fired up Batman Begins, as it is a bass fest that is also a great movie.

More to report later.

Here is the Heartbeat scene, comparing the PB13-Ultra to the MFW-15. This is with the Ultra set to the 20 Hz filter, with 2 ports blocked, vs. the MFW-15, which has no adjustments.

Both of these represent the point at which any additional volume caused the subwoofers to make that "unwanted" noise.

The MFW-15:

Clipped for space.

The PB13-Ultra:

Clipped for space.



That is truly some impressive output by a single MFW compared to the 3x more expensive Ultra. It looks like the linear performance is comparable and output is off by only a few db. Two MFW's should exceed the overall output the SVS in all but the lowest region. Now, the SVS can be tuned to 15 Hz (any chance we could see that graph as well?) which should increase output in the sub 20 range. I am very anxious to see how the dual setup performs compared to the SVS and also the Castle in your estimations.

Keith Yates's subwoofer shootout of 2004 was the best work of its kind, ever.

I just fired up Batman Begins, as it is a bass fest that is also a great movie.

More to report later.

My son and I have watched that movie several times. I like watching it because of all the bass.

That is really good performance for a $599 subwoofer. :)

Though IMO the Pulse is not the best "test scene" because of certain issues with it...

I've made a a brief search (here and the web) and can't seem to find out about ordering the MFW-15? Nothing on the av123 website about availability either.

I've made a a brief search (here and the web) and can't seem to find out about ordering the MFW-15? Nothing on the av123 website about availability either.

I believe they're filling the pre-order folks first. Once they're taken care of it should show up on the web site.

I believe they're filling the pre-order folks first. Once they're taken care of it should show up on the web site.
Thanks, any idea how to inquire about preorder?

Phone them; extension 1 for sales (look under "About us" -> "Contact us"). You probably live close to their HQ.

That is truly some impressive output by a single MFW compared to the 3x more expensive Ultra. It looks like the linear performance is comparable and output is off by only a few db. Two MFW's should exceed the overall output the SVS in all but the lowest region. Now, the SVS can be tuned to 15 Hz (any chance we could see that graph as well?) which should increase output in the sub 20 range. I am very anxious to see how the dual setup performs compared to the SVS and also the Castle in your estimations.

The Ultra was not liking that scene in a standard configuration .. ie: 15 Hz/1 port blocked or 20 Hz/all ports open.

I did capture an earlier Pulse scene with the Ultra in 15/1 port blocked mode, and will do the same with the MFW-15. This scene has signifigant bass in the 15 Hz and up range.

Thanks, any idea how to inquire about preorder?

Call them direct. (877)543-7500

Thanks, any idea how to inquire about preorder?

I'd call Jess Quintana on Monday. He was a forum member who now works in customer service. Here's his contact info:

Jess Quintana
av123 / Perpetual Technologies LLC
Parker, CO
Jess@**********
303-543-7500 Extension 311

Thanks, any idea how to inquire about preorder?

give em a call monday or slip em an email.

Hi All ... Any info about the MFW-15 can be found on AV123's website. They also have a forum there in which specific questions about ordering can be placed.

Please, keep those questions there ... :)

The Ultra was not liking that scene in a standard configuration .. ie: 15 Hz/1 port blocked or 20 Hz/all ports open.

I did capture an earlier Pulse scene with the Ultra in 15/1 port blocked mode, and will do the same with the MFW-15. This scene has signifigant bass in the 15 Hz and up range.

craig, do you still have the trinity ?

i'd love to know how it handles the pulse scene

http://av123.wetpaint.com/page/MFW-15+Subwoofer

As for Pulse, that is truly scary. I mean, if those of us with Ultra's and F113's have to remember to turn down the volume at that particular scene (if we are listening to the movie at say -5 or -10), can this not simply destroy lesser subs if the owner's a) have it calibrated hot, which is typical, and b) have no idea they could damage their sub with certain signals? :confused: Or would most smaller/cheaper subs simply not even try to redproduce those signals as they are too low?

No problem with the Pulse scene on my 20-39PC+ at -9 and I run about 3db hot.

Phone them; extension 1 for sales (look under "About us" -> "Contact us"). You probably live close to their HQ.
Sheesh, I guess I should have spent more time on their site, they're right down the road.

Thanks

Sheesh, I guess I should have spent more time on their site, they're right down the road.

Thanks


Did you not even realize they were local?!?!
You have an amazing opportunity due to the fact you are right there! I am not too far away. In the Springs, so I just drive up there and pick up my gear. It's nice.
I love where I live, I have SVS and Ron Stimpson right here in the Springs and av123 right up the road.

Great reading thus far Craig, I look forward to hearing more details and impressions. It is still a $599/1 $999/2 subwoofer, so you will certainly find the limits, but here's to hoping you enjoy the fun to be had within those limits!
http://av123forum.com/images/smilies/beers.gif

Did you not even realize they were local?!?!
You have an amazing opportunity due to the fact you are right there! I am not too far away. In the Springs, so I just drive up there and pick up my gear. It's nice.
I love where I live, I have SVS and Ron Stimpson right here in the Springs and av123 right up the road.I've never looked into them at all before.

The Internet's a great place but sometimes it's easy to forget that behind the web pages are real physical places. I'll have to be a better neighbor. :).

Phone them; extension 1 for sales (look under "About us" -> "Contact us"). You probably live close to their HQ.

This is a joke right? You lucky lucky man ... he is probably living right next door lol .... Longmont! Talk about saving on shipping!

Eagles, read up on your subs... Thats the SVS new Ultra13, with a 13.5 inch driver, more watts on the amp and a bigger enclosure then the old Ultras.


I know that, thanks though. But for shear out put between 20Hz - 50Hz wouldn't the dual A5-350's best it?

Craig-

Do you plan to do an in-room sweep of the MFW-15 similar to that which you did with the A5-350?

A5-350 from page 140

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/A5350sweep.jpg

Thanks for all the of the "work" you're doing. ;)

I've never looked into them at all before.

The Internet's a great place but sometimes it's easy to forget that behind the web pages are real physical places. I'll have to be a better neighbor. :).

Give us a little advance notice... and we will gladly receive you...

If you come around lunch time --- I usually like to take a few of the guys out for some chow when I'm around... :)

All the best...

mls

How is the tone quality on music? Can it carry a tune? I'm glad I stayed on the pre order list. Waited over one year for this. Looks like very well done Mark & Mark.

Later, Daman

Craig-

Do you plan to do an in-room sweep of the MFW-15 similar to that which you did with the A5-350?

A5-350 from page 140

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/A5350sweep.jpg

Thanks for all the of the "work" you're doing. ;)

Do you mean something like this ? And you are welcome. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/mfw15QS.jpg

I guess all the speculation the Mfw15 couldn't compete with the A5-350 was a waste of breath? Not saying which is better but it cracks me up when ppl say x is better than y when y isn't not even out. The finish of the Mfw15 makes it a way better buy. But the wait is ridiculous. Especially now when these charts and reviews are up. They will never be in stock??

WOW! Just.....WOW! $599? Are you freaking kidding me? Awesome job by Mark Seaton.

I guess all the speculation the Mfw15 couldn't compete with the A5-350 was a waste of breath? Not saying which is better but it cracks me up when ppl say x is better than y when y isn't not even out. The finish of the Mfw15 makes it a way better buy. But the wait is ridiculous. Especially now when these charts and reviews are up. They will never be in stock??


You should start to see availability right around the time something else comes out at the same price point with better performance:)

JD

Lol that picture is gonna be reposted a million times it seems..The guy who actually took that picture even said it looks bad cause he forgot to wipe the sub after taking it out of the package.
I dont expect it will be close in performance, for some reason..But I know nothing of courseGood call ;)

Grr now I have to get back on the list after taking myself off a while ago.

Guess I will call Monday - just hoping they are not flooded based on Craigs reviews - or that someone takes pity on me since I was on the list before. (hint, hint if Mark is reading this).

That looks impressive.

I hope this thing sounds good with music because that unknown is the only thing keeping me from picking up the phone right now and going into more debt! :p

It will be nice to see how the Axiom EP500 compares.

Do you mean something like this ? And you are welcome. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/mfw15QS.jpg

very nice....do you happen to have the sweep for th valor?

It will be nice to see how the Axiom EP500 compares.

Are they revising it? The original was tested.

Craig,

First let me express my appreciation for your efforts here and elsewhere. They really are a valuable service to all of us.

Second, and I apologize if I missed it somewhere in this giant thread, but are you going to be posting the narrative assessments for the lower rated subs or just stop where you are with #16 in the summary posting (#8)? Personally I'd like to see the narratives for every sub you've evaluated placed in the summary posting.

Best!

--Bob

I guess all the speculation the Mfw15 couldn't compete with the A5-350 was a waste of breath? Not saying which is better but it cracks me up when ppl say x is better than y when y isn't not even out. The finish of the Mfw15 makes it a way better buy. But the wait is ridiculous. Especially now when these charts and reviews are up. They will never be in stock??

Please forgive the "jump in"...

Not True... we are running and have parts for 500 COMPLETE units right now...

They are coming in with EVERY container from Cali - I can post the "factory builds" here - but I feel this is better discussed not in this thread...

We have backed this up with 250 more (for build) in March...

All the best...

mls

Please forgive the "jump in"...

Not True... we are running and have parts for 500 COMPLETED units right now...

They are coming in with EVERY container from Cali - I can post the "factory builds" here - but I feel this is better discussed not in this thread...

We have backed this up with 250 more (for build) in March...

All the best...

mls

Mark.....You are the man!!! Glad to see you posting over here. Craig....Thanks for all the hard work you put in to your reviews it's greatly appreciated by many people here on this forum and others.

Mark.....You are the man!!! Glad to see you posting over here. Craig....Thanks for all the hard work you put in to your reviews it's greatly appreciated by many people here on this forum and others.

Thanks... :)

Please note my edit... We have ALL the parts for 500 COMPLETE units... We are building them out now...

The 1st 150 are in fact being final assembled in Longmont, CO...

All the best...

mls

Craigsub i was wondering if you could give me some advice. Ive been reading this thread for a week now while I was at work and I figured you would be best equipped to do so. I'm purchasing a sub for my living room and I can only get a sub no bigger then an 18" cube, which obviously leaves me pretty limited. I'm thinking about either the velodyne spl 1500 or d-tech reference. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanx!

Please forgive the "jump in"...

Not True... we are running and have parts for 500 COMPLETE units right now...

They are coming in with EVERY container from Cali - I can post the "factory builds" here - but I feel this is better discussed not in this thread...

We have backed this up with 250 more (for build) in March...

All the best...

mls
500 won't be enough :eek:;)

Please forgive the "jump in"...

Not True... we are running and have parts for 500 COMPLETE units right now...

They are coming in with EVERY container from Cali - I can post the "factory builds" here - but I feel this is better discussed not in this thread...

We have backed this up with 250 more (for build) in March...

All the best...

mls

So if we order within the next few days we should receive them in March?

Craigsub i was wondering if you could give me some advice. Ive been reading this thread for a week now while I was at work and I figured you would be best equipped to do so. I'm purchasing a sub for my living room and I can only get a sub no bigger then an 18" cube, which obviously leaves me pretty limited. I'm thinking about either the velodyne spl 1500 or d-tech reference. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanx!

Those are a couple of pretty good choices. Getting an 18 inch cube is not a simple thing.

So Craig - off the cuff based on a short term review can you hazard a guess at dual MFW's vs. a Castle or Tower? I would think the Castle or Tower might extend lower but the dual MFWs would have greater output in the 20+ Hz range. Any thoughts?

Craigsub and/or Mark,
can you please give me advice on whether 4 MFW-15's would be too much in my 23 x 15 x 9 fully enclosed theater room? Also would they overpower my mains and surround speakers in this configuration and be difficult to balance the system overall? I will be ordering this week and need to make sure OR just order 2 units instead. Thanks in advance to those who reply. Great thread and nice work Craigsub. (PS. Craigsub I think your 911 was a better car than your Corvette...why? I'm biased as I currently own one!---no flames now kay!)

Craigsub and/or Mark,
can you please give me advice on whether 4 MFW-15's would be too much in my 23 x 15 x 9 fully enclosed theater room? Also would they overpower my mains and surround speakers in this configuration and be difficult to balance the system overall? I will be ordering this week and need to make sure OR just order 2 units instead. Thanks in advance to those who reply. Great thread and nice work Craigsub. (PS. Craigsub I think your 911 was a better car than your Corvette...why? I'm biased as I currently own one!---no flames now kay!)

If you own a 911, then no, 4 MFW-15's are not overkill. In fact, get 8. That's still cheaper than the ceramic brake option. :cool:

lol

So Craig - off the cuff based on a short term review can you hazard a guess at dual MFW's vs. a Castle or Tower? I would think the Castle or Tower might extend lower but the dual MFWs would have greater output in the 20+ Hz range. Any thoughts?

Can you wait until I get the pair hooked up, and some tests done with the 2 MFW'S ?

Those are a couple of pretty good choices. Getting an 18 inch cube is not a simple thing.

Yah I know but the WAF is important since its in the "Living Room". If you had to though which one would you chose. Its mostly going to be used for ht.

Yah I know but the WAF is important since its in the "Living Room". If you had to though which one would you chose. Its mostly going to be used for ht.

You are to be commended for wanting her happy, too. Both the Velo and Def Tech are good choices, and will serve you well. I really could not tell you which would work better for you.

If you own a 911, then no, 4 MFW-15's are not overkill. In fact, get 8. That's still cheaper than the ceramic brake option. :cool:

Doh!...okay okay...just money huh!:rolleyes:
I guess if they are too much then I'll put 2 of them in the dedicated music room!:p

Doh!...okay okay...just money huh!:rolleyes:
I guess if they are too much then I'll put 2 of them in the dedicated music room!:p

stack 2 on the front left and 2 on the front right

i did that with my first 4 subs and it's amazing

Craigsub, thanks for your work on comparing subwoofers--you truly are an asset to the HT community!

I've been lurking on various home theater forums, in search of which subwoofer to 'upgrade' to. I've come across brands and names I would have never heard of or considered. With that said, and tapping into your wealth of knowledge and expertise, I want to pick your brains on making a choice between various subs.

This will be going into my den/family room, 90% TV/HT viewing, 10% music. I have on order an av123 Rocket setup that will consist of RS1000 mains, RSC200 center channel, and RS450 rears. These will be driven with Emotiva DMC-1 and MPS-1 gear.

My room measures approximately 18'x20'x10' high ceilings. Pics here (pardon the mess):
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i210/nofear38/Home%20Theater/livingroom004.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i210/nofear38/Home%20Theater/livingroom003.jpg

So some of the subs I was considering, to replace my HSU VTF3 MK2 sub, were:

SVS PB-13ultra-have heard of nothing but praise for this sub. Tests really well on several forum members' tests.
Epik subwoofer, Tower or Conquest-a bit bigger than what I'd want to go with, and WAF is low
VMPS New Larger Subwoofer-can't find too much info on this sub, other than the fact that it is from a reputable high-end speaker company. Amplifier sold separately
av123 MWF-15 sub-intrigued by the price, level of fit and finish/WAF, and the fact that I can get 2 of them for the price of 1 SVS PB13 sub...
eD A7-450 or A7-700--again, size limitations for the bigger sub and WAF would push this lower on the list. Plus, the fact that I've read of some issues with their amps...
Emotiva DRS-1 dual sub--wonder how low can a 12" dual setup go, compared with the av123 offering...


I am primarily looking for a considerable upgrade to the presence, energy, and output from my HSU (my model can't be upgraded to the HO version). I purposely did not list a JL f113 because that is a bit more than what I'd want to spend...

Any thoughts/ideas? Seeing as how you have heard 1st hand a SVS PB-13 and the av123 MFW-15 dual setup, I am seriously considering between those 2...

Craig....Any thoughts/ideas? Seeing as how you have heard 1st hand a SVS PB-13 and the av123 MFW-15 dual setup, I am seriously considering between those 2... Doc, I'm sure Craig will share his thoughts on how a pair of MFW-15s compares to a PB13 Ultra, but you're going to have to give him a little time. It was only yesterday that he set up a single MFW-15 and began to put it through it's paces. I doubt if he's got the pair set up yet. Hang in there. :)

So if we order within the next few days we should receive them in March?

Good Morning...

YES... March is a fair assumption right now...

I know this upcoming week we are shipping a good load - and we have two containers due from Cali - 1/16 and 1/23 coming... These have many more MFW's on them - including some of the veneer finishes...

All the best...

mls

Doctor Subie, I have only heard the single MFW-15 ... but will hook up the second this morning. It certainly is easy enough to turn it off when we want to do single unit testing.

Having done extensive auditions and measurements from Epik, eD, SVS and AV123 ... ALL are solid choices.

If the Conquest produced tighter bass when turned over on its side due to better coupling with the floor from both the driver and its ports, would the same be said of the Castle? Also, Craig mentioned that the tower would most likely trade off some high teen frequencies for a little more in the mid teens. Wouldn't this be offset a little bit by having a slightly more efficient, larger enclosure?

If the Conquest produced tighter bass when turned over on its side due to better coupling with the floor from both the driver and its ports, would the same be said of the Castle? Also, Craig mentioned that the tower would most likely trade off some high teen frequencies for a little more in the mid teens. Wouldn't this be offset a little bit by having a slightly more efficient, larger enclosure?

I tried the Castle both ways, and and there was no audible difference.

And no .. the reason the Castle will have slightly higher output in the upper teens is the port is doing more work there, and the driver less.

The deeper the tuning, the more the driver has to act as a sealed design at deeper, and harder to produce, frquencies.

In reality, the differences between a Castle and Tower are likely minimal.

I DO hope Chad catches up, and can build a Knight for us. This $600 arena is HOT.

Good Morning...

YES... March is a fair assumption right now...

I know this upcoming week we are shipping a good load - and we have two containers due from Cali - 1/16 and 1/23 coming... These have many more MFW's on them - including some of the veneer finishes...

All the best...

mls

Hello Mark, I could not find any info on the available veneer choices. Is maple available? Can you provide the veneer options? thanks, Jon :)

so is mwf-15 better than a5-350 then?
between those two graphs its 5db louder throughout and flatter too

Looks like the MFW-15 has as much output at 18Hz as the A5-350 does at 50Hz...

Might this $599 sub score 100 points???

A5-350
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/A5350sweep.jpg


MFW-15
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/mfw15QS.jpg

http://image.wetpaint.com/image/1/nGW-xObfuTiVYq9lUA_LFw56093/GW450H600

Gents .. Those are merely response curves .. look at the shape of the curve, and ignore the actual SPL.

The eD could easily have delivered the same curve at 5 dB higher.

This QS is merely to show response, NOT SPL.

I hope that clarifies things. :)

Craigsub, thanks for your work on comparing subwoofers--you truly are an asset to the HT community!

I've been lurking on various home theater forums, in search of which subwoofer to 'upgrade' to. I've come across brands and names I would have never heard of or considered. With that said, and tapping into your wealth of knowledge and expertise, I want to pick your brains on making a choice between various subs.

This will be going into my den/family room, 90% TV/HT viewing, 10% music. I have on order an av123 Rocket setup that will consist of RS1000 mains, RSC200 center channel, and RS450 rears. These will be driven with Emotiva DMC-1 and MPS-1 gear.

My room measures approximately 18'x20'x10' high ceilings. Pics here (pardon the mess):
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i210/nofear38/Home%20Theater/livingroom004.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i210/nofear38/Home%20Theater/livingroom003.jpg

So some of the subs I was considering, to replace my HSU VTF3 MK2 sub, were:

SVS PB-13ultra-have heard of nothing but praise for this sub. Tests really well on several forum members' tests.
Epik subwoofer, Tower or Conquest-a bit bigger than what I'd want to go with, and WAF is low
VMPS New Larger Subwoofer-can't find too much info on this sub, other than the fact that it is from a reputable high-end speaker company. Amplifier sold separately
av123 MWF-15 sub-intrigued by the price, level of fit and finish/WAF, and the fact that I can get 2 of them for the price of 1 SVS PB13 sub...
eD A7-450 or A7-700--again, size limitations for the bigger sub and WAF would push this lower on the list. Plus, the fact that I've read of some issues with their amps...
Emotiva DRS-1 dual sub--wonder how low can a 12" dual setup go, compared with the av123 offering...


I am primarily looking for a considerable upgrade to the presence, energy, and output from my HSU (my model can't be upgraded to the HO version). I purposely did not list a JL f113 because that is a bit more than what I'd want to spend...

Any thoughts/ideas? Seeing as how you have heard 1st hand a SVS PB-13 and the av123 MFW-15 dual setup, I am seriously considering between those 2...

On the ED subs the only amp that had any problems was the 550 watt amp. The ED subs that you listed do not use that amp. If you are considering the ED subs then you might want to look at the A7S-450 (18" driver and 1,300 watt sealed sub) also. I have the A7S-450 and it is a nice sounding sub for both music and HT. I use mine for 90% HT. The only draw back on ED's subs is the finish. I placed mine in a built-in so the only thing you will see is the grill. I think when Craig gets a chance to test this sub it is going to become a hot product.

I did misinterpet those graphs, Craig. I'll put my foot in my mouth and just sit back and read from here forward.

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you're ignorant, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." ..:eek:

I'm just ecstatic that there is WAF and performance at this price level.

Hello Mark, I could not find any info on the available veneer choices. Is maple available? Can you provide the veneer options? thanks, Jon :) Jon, the MFW-15 is currently been constructed in the Cali, Columbia factory. At the moment the only finishes available from that factory are those below. I, personally, do not know that the MFW-15 will be available in all 5 finishes, but I'm assuming they will.

av123 has been known to throw in a custom finish, every now and then, so, at some point, there may be a few Birds Eye Maple MFW-15s available. Mark, I'm sure, will be able to provide more definite information.

http://www.**********/images/finishes-black-prs-pns-moho.jpg

IMHO, the above photo doesn't do justice to the Moho finish. So, I offer the photo below.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v56/Rijax/MohoMedium.jpg

I wish av123 was selling speaker cabinets like Parts Express does

Doctor Subie

These should be your choices. (best to "worst" for you)

1.Epik Conquest: If you like to lift yourself 10cm above the floor while watching a bass scene, that's the best choice. Although WAF is low
2.Epik Tower: I put this on the second choice because the $1099 price. The HT performance should be a little more visceral (at normal volume)than the PB13, but WAF and feature is low.
3.SVS PB13: Incredible performance for its size. If you like WAF and willing to sacrifice some visceral feeling compared to the Conquest, that's your choice. Also, it's better features and sound quality (although you don't listen to music) makes up for it's $1499 price
4.MFW15: I don't know much about this sub, but my guess is that 2 will give the same HT performance as a PB13 or a Tower, but the lower WAF (2 subs take lots of room) and probably sound quality not even close to the subs here.
Don't even consider the subs you've mentioned but not listed here, they will not give performance level like the subs on this list. The eD should be on the list, but its low WAF and wait time is too long (a couple of months).

Thanks for the wood choices Rijax, that tower looks sweet! Does anyone (I have looked for it) have the physical stats of the MFW15? H/W/D dimensions and weight. It's obviously front firing, and looks like it is bottom/front ported? I assume rear amped? Thanks

Thanks for the wood choices Rijax, that tower looks sweet! Does anyone (I have looked for it) have the physical stats. H/W/D dimensions and weight. It's obviously front firing, and looks like it is bottom/front ported? I assume rear amped? Thanks

Got this straight from Epik's website:

Tower specs:

Price: $1099 – Textured black
or
$1299 – Rosenut veneer
Enclosure dimensions: 27H x 20W x 30D inches (31D with grill)
Port: Patented 6 inch flared design
Driver: Custom 15 inch extreme excursion design
Amplifier: Custom 500 watt RMS BASH amplifier
Cabinet: Triple-internally braced, dual thickness baffle super-refined MDF
Warranty: 7 years on driver, 2 years on electronic


For some reason they don't list weight. I'd guess at least 175 pounds though.

Got this straight from Epik's website:

Tower specs:

Price: $1099 – Textured black
or
$1299 – Rosenut veneer
Enclosure dimensions: 27H x 20W x 30D inches (31D with grill)
Port: Patented 6 inch flared design
Driver: Custom 15 inch extreme excursion design
Amplifier: Custom 500 watt RMS BASH amplifier
Cabinet: Triple-internally braced, dual thickness baffle super-refined MDF
Warranty: 7 years on driver, 2 years on electronic


For some reason they don't list weight. I'd guess at least 175 pounds though.

Maybe my fault, I ment the MFW-15 sub, and not the tower, I was just commenting on how nice the tower looked.:)

Maybe my fault, I ment the MFW-15 sub, and not the tower, I was just commenting on how nice the tower looked.:)

Oops. Sorry about that. Hopefully Craig will give you an idea on the MFW-15's specs :).

MFW-15's specs, per Mark Seaton, who designed it:

"18" wide, 22.5" deep, 24" tall

While I don't recall the final weight with packing, I expect the shipping weight to be 100-110 lbs.

Driver: Custom designed 15" woofer with 2.5" VC
Amplifier: 350W high efficiency design with separate control panel for Level, Phase and Low Pass Frequency at top back of the cabinet.
Cabinet: 25mm & 18mm MDF with plenty of bracing.

Ground plane measurements will be posted when I have full production units rather than samples.

Ground Plane frequency response is 18-200Hz +/-4dB
Typical in-room response extends to 15-17Hz."

Thanks for the super fast response! :) If there are minimal differences between the Castle/Tower and Knight/Caliber, maybe Chad should just do away with the Tower/Caliber and instead, concentrate on an improved line of sealed subwoofers. It seems that his 12" version is due soon, and an improved version of the valor (with a better driver and more powerful amp) would round things out nicely.

After a short chat with Chad, I ordered a Tower for the added bass extension and hope that at low to mid volume levels, it will be as tight or better sounding than my vintage '88 Velo ULD-15. I crave "knock you on your @ss" bass, but not at the expense of SQ.

Hello Mark, I could not find any info on the available veneer choices. Is maple available? Can you provide the veneer options? thanks, Jon :)

Hello Jon - and thanks...

The finishes are here... Forgive the link to my site... I have no other way to show these to you...

link removed

All the best...

mls

PS... Cherry has a very slight "Rosa" tint to it (red) and the Moho is more earth toned... Cool... Thanks

MFW-15's specs, per Mark Seaton, who designed it:

"18" wide, 22.5" deep, 24" tall

While I don't recall the final weight with packing, I expect the shipping weight to be 100-110 lbs.

Driver: Custom designed 15" woofer with 2.5" VC
Amplifier: 350W high efficiency design with separate control panel for Level, Phase and Low Pass Frequency at top back of the cabinet.
Cabinet: 25mm & 18mm MDF with plenty of bracing.

Ground plane measurements will be posted when I have full production units rather than samples.

Ground Plane frequency response is 18-200Hz +/-4dB
Typical in-room response extends to 15-17Hz."

I believe I was told 135 pounds...

Thanks Rijax for the post... I should know how to do that by now... (link removed in a moment)...

The internal construction is easily the most unique *I* have ever seen in a sub... Very heavily braced and well damped...

Very easy to use product - and frankly... looks awesome... (sorry)...

All the best...

mls

Good Morning...

YES... March is a fair assumption right now...

I know this upcoming week we are shipping a good load - and we have two containers due from Cali - 1/16 and 1/23 coming... These have many more MFW's on them - including some of the veneer finishes...

All the best...

mls

hey mark, just out of curiosity, are more customers ordering (i mean pre-ordering) in pairs or singles ? (must be hard to turn down an "extra" sub for just $400)

also out of curiosity, is the type of port on the MFW considered "transmission line" ?

thanks

Here is the difference between a single MFW-15 and duals on the Heartbeat scene. Note the increase in SPL at the 40 Hz area - in listening, that adds a lot of the "kick in the chest" we are seeking.

Single MFW-15:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/MFW15Heartbeat.jpg

Dual MFW-15's:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/2mfw15heartbeat.jpg

awwwww yeaaahhh

Looking very solid in that VLFE range w/ dualies...

Thanks for the super fast response! :) If there are minimal differences between the Castle/Tower and Knight/Caliber, maybe Chad should just do away with the Tower/Caliber and instead, concentrate on an improved line of sealed subwoofers. It seems that his 12" version is due soon, and an improved version of the valor (with a better driver and more powerful amp) would round things out nicely.

After a short chat with Chad, I ordered a Tower for the added bass extension and hope that at low to mid volume levels, it will be as tight or better sounding than my vintage '88 Velo ULD-15. I crave "knock you on your @ss" bass, but not at the expense of SQ.

I also ordered a tower a last week for the utah theater. Chad indicated the tower has 3db more output at 20Hz than the castle without giving up output above that...

I am also excited as I have some MFW-15's on order in rosewood for my other house... BUt all that will have to wait till after ski season....

Sean

4.MFW15: I don't know much about this sub, but my guess is that 2 will give the same HT performance as a PB13 or a Tower, but the lower WAF (2 subs take lots of room) and probably sound quality not even close to the subs here.


What makes you think that the MFW-15's sound quality won't be any where close to the SVS and Epik offerings? I would think it would be a little premature to make a statement at this juncture, especially for a Seaton designed sub.

Thanks Rijax for the post... I should know how to do that by now...

All the best...

mls You're welcome Mark. I can tell you how to do it relatively quickly. :D

4.MFW15: I don't know much about this sub, but my guess is that 2 will give the same HT performance as a PB13 or a Tower, but the lower WAF (2 subs take lots of room) and probably sound quality not even close to the subs here.

I just wanted to point out two issues.

1) WAF may be higher with two MFW-15 subs because they are available in a variety of finishing options that are really quite beautiful. I've attached a few pics to give you an idea

2) Two subs can really help performance if you take the time to figure out your room.

I agree sound quality is most important. Depending on how Craig rates the MFW-15 in this area my HSU may be going bye bye. To some it may sound silly that Craig has my subs future in his hands but he was quite right regarding the sound quality of my HSU VTF-3 HO exceeding that of my old SVS subwoofer.

Hey Craig, are the dual MFW-15's stacked or in different corners of your room?

Doctor Subie, My mistake when I recommended the ED A7S-450. I though that the MFW-15 was a sealed sub. I thought that if you were looking at a sealed sub you should consider the ED A7S-450. The picture of the MFW-15 that I saw was in black and I did not see the transmission port at the bottom of the sub. When I read the specs,18hz., 350 watt, 15" driver and the size of the box I knew it had to be a ported sub.

awesome thoughts/suggestions guys. I'm really torn between just diving in and getting a pair of the mfw-15's or 1 SVS PB-13...right now I placed an order for the SVS sub, but their estimated ship date is ~march, so I have time to cancel...I await craigsub's word with baited breath!

I also agree that the eD and Epik's do not have enough of a WAF for me to pursue that as an option. Some of those size measurements on the eD offerings just would not fit in my already cluttered den!

sounds like the MFW15 is going to be a great sub. am looking forward to seeing craig's scoring as single and dual. with the available real veneers should give it a leg up in the 500-700 dollar price category against eD, epik, and others.

it's never been a better time to be shopping for a sub. Seems like subwoofers are doing what computers typically do. each year they get better and better and somehow cheaper too.

my "ancient" axiom ep500 seems very outdated now. still sounds great, but i know there's a lot out now that is significantly better. I am expecting a pair of A7S and will post pics when they arrive. am also interested in seeing craig test them when they catch up with the back orders.

Hey Craig, are the dual MFW-15's stacked or in different corners of your room?

They are stacked - and look like a single unit. They did a nice job in that regard.

Another nice touch for a budget sub is the controls are at the top of the rear panel while the connections are at the bottom.

I will try to get pictures posted.

We have been watching and listening all day. I have to hand to the AV123 guys - this sub has been a long time coming, and there was a lot of hype (gee, really ?) about it.

It delivers.

As is to be expected, in some ways it (a pair run as one) exceeds an Ultra and Castle .. and in some ways it does not.

Overall, the 3 subs give 3 different ways to get more bass than was possible for under $1500 a year ago.

awesome thoughts/suggestions guys. I'm really torn between just diving in and getting a pair of the mfw-15's or 1 SVS PB-13...right now I placed an order for the SVS sub, but their estimated ship date is ~march, so I have time to cancel...I await craigsub's word with baited breath!

I also agree that the eD and Epik's do not have enough of a WAF for me to pursue that as an option. Some of those size measurements on the eD offerings just would not fit in my already cluttered den!

hmm, how small do you think the pb13 is ? It's not any smaller than castle or knight, unless the height is your primary concern. But if it is, you shouldn't consider stacked mwf-15s either. Epik finishes are quite good looking I've read.

Epik finish still isn't considered waf to most. Look at the picks of the Mwf-15 and Svs 13 they look like furniture. Some consider that waf. The Mwf15 probably would take as long to get at the PB13??

The whole subject of "waf" is amusing to me personally. A man wanting a better looking sub himself - thats reasonable, a wife telling him what to do - ..... Dont forget that both the mwf and the pb13 are plain black for the standart price, and other choices are more expensive. I'm just one of those people that if they have an extra cent to spend, would spend it on a 1% gain in performance before thinking about looks.

where did you get that 1% performance gain and compared to what? Looks like you want everybody to buy ed/epik based on your various postings. Hope you got your sub.

where did you get that 1% performance gain and compared to what?

compared to nothing, just saying I like to get as much performance as I can for the money and the looks are low on my priority list, and I like people that have the same attitude because I consider them true enthusiasts

Well, the offerings for the Epik Tower and Conquest are taller, heightwise, than the SVS. The eD offerings that I was considering (the 700) was waay too big as well.

If I were to get 2 MFW-15's, I would spread them apart, one adjacent to each end of my couch probably. I suppose I could stack them in a corner, but that would also look odd...

What finish are your MFW15's? Would love to see some cherry pics as I have not seen that finish on the MFW15.

Can you tell us more details on how the MFW15 pair is better than the Ultra and Castle and what it does not do better...

They are stacked - and look like a single unit. They did a nice job in that regard.

Another nice touch for a budget sub is the controls are at the top of the rear panel while the connections are at the bottom.

I will try to get pictures posted.

We have been watching and listening all day. I have to hand to the AV123 guys - this sub has been a long time coming, and there was a lot of hype (gee, really ?) about it.

It delivers.

As is to be expected, in some ways it (a pair run as one) exceeds an Ultra and Castle .. and in some ways it does not.

Overall, the 3 subs give 3 different ways to get more bass than was possible for under $1500 a year ago.

I was just surfing around a bit when I found this wonderful thread! It's great to have a ranking list based on blind listening tests and measurements, instead of subjective blah blah and preconceptions.
However, I'd like to know a little more about how the tests are done. So far I've only read those two lines at the top of the post with the whole ranking in it. It may have been explained in more detail somewhere in this 183 paged thread, but I think it would be good idea to do this somewhere in the beginning of this thread.

Martijin ... This is posted in the summary section on the first page:

Listening procedures:

All listening us done under blind conditions. The panel of listeners include several very experienced audiophiles, some of whom also design and build high end pro audio speakers. The subwoofers were each placed in the identical room position, and eq'ed to have a farly flat (3 dB window) response curve from 18 Hz and up, when the subwoofer was able to go that "low".

Measuring procedures: All measurements are taken at 2 meters from the front baffle of a subwoofer. In the case of a ported sub, the microphone is placed so it is 2 meters from the center of the driver(s) and port. The posted measured results are max "clean" 20 Hz output and the average from 20 to 63 Hz. If it seemed like the amp was the limiting factor in output, "AL" is added to the 20 Hz SPL.



If you need further clarification, please drop me a PM. :)

mfw-15 $499 + 105 shipping/handling =$604---seems to be a great price for its capabilities----ordered 1 today---as mentioned before, downside is no shipping on orders today till march----thanks to craig for all his informative work;)

I'm really torn, Chad (Epik) is a friend of the wife/av123 feels like family.

I can get a Caliber in a week/I have to wait until march for a MFW15

The MFW is $100 less

Guess I'll have to wait for Chad to send a Knight or Caliber to Craig and see how it all falls out with the MFW.

Either way it will be a nice improvement over the x-sub (WSM)

Harrison

There finishes are very nice.
But for people with non-cherry furniture, like a simple black and white modern look, the black finish of all subs is very similar. Even the rough eD from more than a couple feet looks just like my black Paradigm speakers and blends nicely with my piano black D* HD-DVR, Tosh HD-A2, PS3, yamaha avr receiver and Pio tv edge.
Now if I had say an old school entertainment center(confinement) that was a nice wood grain the finishes would be MUCH more important.

But for people to blindly say that a certain sub is across the line better for WAF is just untrue. If I put a wood colored sub into my set-up it would look aweful.

There finishes are very nice.
But for people with non-cherry furniture, like a simple black and white modern look, the black finish of all subs is very similar. Even the rough eD from more than a couple feet looks just like my black Paradigm speakers and blends nicely with my piano black D* HD-DVR, Tosh HD-A2, PS3, yamaha avr receiver and Pio tv edge.
Now if I had say an old school entertainment center(confinement) that was a nice wood grain the finishes would be MUCH more important.

But for people to blindly say that a certain sub is across the line better for WAF is just untrue. If I put a wood colored sub into my set-up it would look aweful.

im with you on that. the theater is all black. the wifes living room is all wood, but im not allowed even to sit on the couch, never mind install sound system.

Sorry, I'm late to the small/cheap sub party! But how about Cadence CSX-12 or CSX-15?


Craigsub - have you tested or be willing to test either sub mentioned above?

Originally posted by E-A-G-L-E-S: But for people with non-cherry furniture, like a simple black and white modern look, the black finish of all subs is very similar. I have to humbly disagree with this statement to a certain extent. I have had various speaker/subs finished in black, and the look can be very different, even from a distance. Now it's not a night and day difference, but certainly noticeable. Whether or not it makes a difference to any one person comes down to the individual. It may also depend on how dark the room is, whether the speakers are visible, etc.

mfw-15 $499 + 105 shipping/handling =$604---seems to be a great price for its capabilities----ordered 1 today---as mentioned before, downside is no shipping on orders today till march----thanks to craig for all his informative work;)

$105 for shipping?:eek:

It's cheaper if you buy a whole pallet worth :D

Don't forget these (MFW-15) are roughly 130 pounds shipped per sub.

I'm used to eD's prices including shipping.:o

mfw-15 $499 + 105 shipping/handling =$604---seems to be a great price for its capabilities----ordered 1 today---as mentioned before, downside is no shipping on orders today till march----thanks to craig for all his informative work;)

It's $599 for one

I tried the Castle both ways, and and there was no audible difference.

And no .. the reason the Castle will have slightly higher output in the upper teens is the port is doing more work there, and the driver less.

The deeper the tuning, the more the driver has to act as a sealed design at deeper, and harder to produce, frquencies.

In reality, the differences between a Castle and Tower are likely minimal.

The Tower is around ~3 dB louder than the Castle from 20 Hz on down. The larger cabinet helps out a lot and there is a noticable and measurable difference between them.

Maybe I should just post some graphs... :)

I DO hope Chad catches up, and can build a Knight for us. This $600 arena is HOT.

Me too. :D Right now the main goal is just getting out all of our current orders on time. We just tripled our manufacturing space. We are working to remove the normal 3-5 day wait. Hopefully by the end of next week we won't have a wait time.

I will get you a Knight by next week. Sorry for the delay Craig. :)

Maybe I should just post some graphs... :)


I think we'd all like that very much :D

The Tower is around ~3 dB louder than the Castle from 20 Hz on down. The larger cabinet helps out a lot and there is a noticable and measurable difference between them.

Maybe I should just post some graphs... :)



Me too. :D Right now the main goal is just getting out all of our current orders on time. We just tripled our manufacturing space. We are working to remove the normal 3-5 day wait. Hopefully by the end of next week we won't have a wait time.

I will get you a Knight by next week. Sorry for the delay Craig. :)

Chad... Thanks for the update. The Tower sure looks compelling, and I think the differences between it and the Castle won't be "very" noticable on most material, but it is cool you give people a choice of slightly higher tuning (and output in that range) or slightly lower tuning (and depth) .... if the Castle is a 109, and the Conquest a 112 ... the Tower must be somewhere in between.

The Knight and MFW-15 are a definite "must compare".

The Velo VX-10 is here, and will get some music listening done tonight. Two of the other three subs .. the little Celestion and Audiosource .. are in the same league as the Tyke: Decent 35 Hz subs for a VERY small room.

The Dayton is a bit one notey (is notey a word ?) ... but at least it has decent output.

More later on the little Velo.

And I will be taking the PB12-NSD to SVS next week, and getting the new amp put in (as Ross did), and it will get a complete re-test with the MFW-15, Epik Knight, and all 3 against the PB13-Ultra.

I'm used to eD's prices including shipping.:o

In that case, can't one assume less has been spent on a (comparable in price to the MFW15) sub's design/drivers/amp/etc to include the free shipping in its price?

The whole subject of "waf" is amusing to me personally. A man wanting a better looking sub himself - thats reasonable, a wife telling him what to do - ..... Dont forget that both the mwf and the pb13 are plain black for the standart price, and other choices are more expensive. I'm just one of those people that if they have an extra cent to spend, would spend it on a 1% gain in performance before thinking about looks.
The Mwf is CHEAPER than the ED right now A5-350. There hasn't been a sub for Epik at the price point to compare. But if price was equal for me I would rather have the 1% go towards looks if it's not in a HT. I couldn't hear 1% better but could see it. I would love to have a veneer finished sub. But MY WAF doesn't like them. She would rather have black and not piano gloss black but flat. Go figure. I figure the best waf is an IB setup more bass diy and can't see it.

Craig, thank you for providing so much usefull info to all of us, much appreciated!

I am going to buy an Epic sub for my 23x14x8'H HT. I currently run a Paradigm PW2200, music/HT 50/50. How big of a difference is there from what I am using now to say the Castle? (huge I hope:D)Should I look at two Valors? Any comments or suggestions would be much appreciated.

craig I am still holding my breath (gasp!) in anticipation of your review and scoring of the single mfw15. any update on when you will be finished and release the scoring?

craig I am still holding my breath (gasp!) in anticipation of your review and scoring of the single mfw15. any update on when you will be finished and release the scoring?

I think Craig's reviewers are coming over this weekend.

No reason to rush things. :)

if the Castle is a 109, and the Conquest a 112 ... the Tower must be somewhere in between.


How could the Tower be in between the Conquest and the Castle when the HT score of the Castle is just 1 point shy of the Conquest? Maybe you should of rated the Castle a little lower (like 58 for HT) or Conquest higher.

Yes, the guys will be here this weekend ... and will only hear a single MFW-15 against the Ultra ... then results will be posted.

The following, they will get the duals ... should be interesting.

I did some listening to the Velo VX-10 tonight, too. It is a decent little sub ... it adds a nice 35 Hz floor, as long as one does not expect huge volumes, and it is pretty musical

I may even take it and the Dayton and run them in the same setup as the big guys with Pulse ... just so everyone can see the difference.

:D

Yes, the guys will be here this weekend ... and will only hear a single MFW-15 against the Ultra ... then results will be posted.

The following, they will get the duals ... should be interesting.

I did some listening to the Velo VX-10 tonight, too. It is a decent little sub ... it adds a nice 35 Hz floor, as long as one does not expect huge volumes, and it is pretty musical

I may even take it and the Dayton and run them in the same setup as the big guys with Pulse ... just so everyone can see the difference.

:D

Glad you were able to test the VX-10 a bit. My thoughts regarding the little Velo are pretty similar to yours. It won't hit really hard or go deep, but it's a good price/performance sub for HT and sounds quite good IMO at its price point for music. Few subs I've heard under $200 are very enjoyable to listen to with music, but the VX-10 actually added something positive to it IMO. Keep the thoughts coming - can't wait to see your numerical rankings of the little guys :D

How could the Tower be in between the Conquest and the Castle when the HT score of the Castle is just 1 point shy of the Conquest? Maybe you should of rated the Castle a little lower (like 58 for HT) or Conquest higher.

Is Chad currently the only one who has a Tower and Castle at his disposal to compare with? Maybe Chad can chime in with his subjective opinion on how one sounds compared to the other for HT and for music? :rolleyes:

How could the Tower be in between the Conquest and the Castle when the HT score of the Castle is just 1 point shy of the Conquest? Maybe you should of rated the Castle a little lower (like 58 for HT) or Conquest higher.

Ok. When you get the chance, let me know where you want them to be, and we will take it from there. :p

lol

In that case, can't one assume less has been spent on a (comparable in price to the MFW15) sub's design/drivers/amp/etc to include the free shipping in its price?

No.

How could the Tower be in between the Conquest and the Castle when the HT score of the Castle is just 1 point shy of the Conquest? Maybe you should of rated the Castle a little lower (like 58 for HT) or Conquest higher.

Its 3 points actually, when craig position the conquest on its side it helped tighten the bass and give it a better score.. Thus, the tower would probably land in between 109 and 112 like craig had just posted...
Futhermore, the whole point of craig's testing is not to give scores out the way we'd like them to be, or where the manufacturers would like them to be, but to give us as unbiased results (with objective and subjective listening tests).. So telling craig what kind of score something should have got is pretty much pointless, as he sarcastically inferred.

compared to nothing, just saying I like to get as much performance as I can for the money and the looks are low on my priority list, and I like people that have the same attitude because I consider them true enthusiasts

High-end audio is as much about looking great as it is about sounding great. And 'plain black' differs by company...the blacks from eD (not sure about Epik) are nothing to write home about. I've seen the satin black from AV123 and its really nice...

exactly "as much" ? I'd hate to buy a product 50% of the price of which is for veneer

exactly "as much" ? I'd hate to buy a product 50% of the price of which is for veneer

AV123 builds the boxes in Cali vs US production for ED and Epik, so a veneered box from AV123 might cost the same or less than a plain black one from the others. I'm sure the black one costs much less.

Its 3 points actually, when craig position the conquest on its side it helped tighten the bass and give it a better score.. Thus, the tower would probably land in between 109 and 112 like craig had just posted...
Futhermore, the whole point of craig's testing is not to give scores out the way we'd like them to be, or where the manufacturers would like them to be, but to give us as unbiased results (with objective and subjective listening tests).. So telling craig what kind of score something should have got is pretty much pointless, as he sarcastically inferred.

I did, however, include the :p smilie. Therefore, the sarcasm is ok.

Seriously ... Blind tests make for some interesting results every time. I am not trying to argue with Chad, because he does know his product.

However, under blind conditions, with program material, bass under 20 Hz at a 3 dB difference is going to be REALLY hard to notice.

Then there is the tuning/SPL trade off

And when you take a driver/amp combo, and tune it for say, 15 Hz in one enclosure and 20 Hz in the other enclosure, that driver has to work harder above the 20 Hz area with the 15 Hz tuned cabinet. The 20 Hz tuned cabinet would have greater SPL in the 20's, at the expense of extension.

Here is an example using Creative Sound's SDX-15 in a 5 and a 6.5 cubic foot enclosure ... note the smaller box delivers about 2 dB more SPL on average from 25 to 40 Hz, while the larger does an increasing amount below 20.

That's the tradeoff between the 2. The REAL question is ... Who could tell the difference, under level matched/blind tests, between the 2 ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SDX152tunes.jpg

So you think the manufacturer who includes free shipping in the price of their sub offerings just eats the actual shipping costs, then? Or do you think the manufacturer has a special relationship with their shipping company that allows them to ship their products for free?

Why is this SO HARD for some people to comprehend? SOMEONE has to pay for shipping. UPS/FED EX/BAX GLOBAL don't lug around 100# boxes for free. :rolleyes:

Either the shipper pays for the shipping or the buyer. If the shipper (manufacturer) pays for it.... then you can be damn well certain, that it's cost gets covered in the selling price of the unit.

Assuming of course, that each manufacturer works off of similar profit margins, then the sub with the "free shipping" cost less to manufacture. You can draw your own conclusions from there....

So you think the manufacturer who includes free shipping in the price of their sub offerings just eats the actual shipping costs, then? Or do you think the manufacturer has a special relationship with their shipping company that allows them to ship their products for free?

I think there are too many variables to tell. The company that offers free shipping could have lower margins, lower supply cost (due to better relationships with suppliers, a more streamlined process that reduces waste, etc...), lower overhead, a more centralized location that helps them better average shipping costs and spread them out over the customer base, and on and on.

Using your logic a $700 sub at Best Buy must be better than the A5-350, MFW-15, the Knight, and the VTF-3 MK3.

Maybe we can get off the shipping discussions, and get back to subs. :) The bottom line is, anyone looking at a sub should look at the total price (taking shipping costs into account) and make their own decision. SVS, and HSU, and Epik, etc., will put together a "shipped" price that works for them. Then it's up to us to find a "shipped" price, on competing subs, that works for each of us.

Craigsub,
That is an interesting graph above, but is there a physical limit that will require the Castle/Tower to follow the same pattern? Could the different box designs also play into it? I was told by Chad that the tower would beat the castle from 35Hz down. I guess we will not really know until you test a tower.

Craigsub,
That is an interesting graph above, but is there a physical limit that will require the Castle/Tower to follow the same pattern? Could the different box designs also play into it? I was told by Chad that the tower would beat the castle from 35Hz down. I guess we will not really know until you test a tower.

I tend to agree. Until we know what the actual design of the system is, we really can't extrapolate based on general designs. The easiest way to find out in this case is to generate some graphs of the two and compare them. Who knows? Maybe Chad found a way to offset the lower SPL levels at higher frequencies while using a lower tuning? An analogy would be the use of variable timing/valve lift/valve duration in newer automobile engines to broaden the torque output. No longer do they have to choose between low lift, short duration cams for low end torque or high lift, longer duration cams for high end horsepower.

I tend to agree. Until we know what the actual design of the system is, we really can't extrapolate based on general designs. The easiest way to find out in this case is to generate some graphs of the two and compare them. Who knows? Maybe Chad found a way to offset the lower SPL levels at higher frequencies while using a lower tuning? An analogy would be the use of variable timing/valve lift/valve duration in newer automobile engines to broaden the torque output. No longer do they have to choose between low lift, short duration cams for low end torque or high lift, longer duration cams for high end horsepower.

Guys, I have never seen such a thing, where a lower tuning of the same amp and driver yielded higher SPL in the lower tuned sub, in the bandwidth above the tuning of the higher tuned sub.

The Castle is tuned @ 18-19 Hz. The Tower is tuned lower.

Unless something else is different, the Castle will be more powerful above 20 Hz.

And cars have precisely squat to do with this. :rolleyes:

Now, if we can stop with the jabbering about freight costs, finishes, etc ... which is NOT supposed to be part of the discussion, we can get back to talking about subwoofers, and do so based on real world, not car engines.

Ok ? ;)

There is something different and thats the enclosure size..the question is, does it make a difference in this case. I guess you should be able to guess better than most people, so if you say no, then it doesnt.

Guys, I have never seen such a thing, where a lower tuning of the same amp and driver yielded higher SPL in the lower tuned sub, in the bandwidth above the tuning of the higher tuned sub.

The Castle is tuned @ 18-19 Hz. The Tower is tuned lower.

Unless something else is different, the Castle will be more powerful above 20 Hz.

And cars have precisely squat to do with this. :rolleyes:

i guess the same should be true with the knight vs. caliber. how much more powerful are we talking about? i know we wouldnt know for sure, but any ideas?

another stuid question, of coarse. if one has more spl at lower freq, and one more at higher freq. how would they compare rating wise? equal, or is it based upon avg. spl? wow, i barely understand the question myself. i hope you do.?