There is something different and thats the enclosure size..the question is, does it make a difference in this case. I guess you should be able to guess better than most people, so if you say no, then it doesnt.

In the sample posted, I used an enclosure 30% larger for the lower tuned sub. That is about the difference in the sizes between the Castle and the Tower.

What is getting rather annoying here is that people seem to prefer to speculate against what every modelling software will show, and against every design on the market.

People are also ignoring the basic question ... given the same driver and amp .. who thinks he could pick out the slightly larger sub, which is tuned lower over the slightly smaller sub, which is tuned higher, under blind conditions ?

In the sample posted, I used an enclosure 30% larger for the lower tuned sub. That is about the difference in the sizes between the Castle and the Tower.

What is getting rather annoying here is that people seem to prefer to speculate against what every modelling software will show, and against every design on the market.

People are also ignoring the basic question ... given the same driver and amp .. who thinks he could pick out the slightly larger sub, which is tuned lower over the slightly smaller sub, which is tuned higher, under blind conditions ?

You'd be surprised Craig. Apparently, some people here can tell you which sub is higher quality just be knowing if shipping was included in the price!

People are also ignoring the basic question ... given the same driver and amp .. who thinks he could pick out the slightly larger sub, which is tuned lower over the slightly smaller sub, which is tuned higher, under blind conditions ?I get what you're saying and the logic works, however, on the selectably tuned SVS subs, I can definitely hear a difference between 20hz and 16hz with the Plus subs and 15hz and 10hz on the Ultra. My preference on the Plus was the higher tuning, on the Ultra the 15hz tune. I'm not sure I could detect it blind, but I think so. As an analogy, I'd compare the Tower/Castle to the 16-46/20-39 as different options that are similar, but excell in different areas of the response curve.

Isn't wishful thinking wonderful. What's the Equivalent of VTEC stickers for subwoofers?

I get what you're saying and the logic works, however, on the selectably tuned SVS subs, I can definitely hear a difference between 20hz and 16hz with the Plus subs and 15hz and 10hz on the Ultra. My preference on the Plus was the higher tuning, on the Ultra the 15hz tune. I'm not sure I could detect it blind, but I think so. As an analogy, I'd compare the Tower/Castle to the 16-46/20-39 as different options that are similar, but excell in different areas of the response curve.

On the WOTW Pods scene, When done blind, the panel had a heck of a time telling the difference between the Castle and Conquest.

When they KNEW which was playing, the Conquest was preferred by a huge margin. :)

You'd be surprised Craig. Apparently, some people here can tell you which sub is higher quality just be knowing if shipping was included in the price!

Ugh! give it up already. :eek:

On the WOTW Pods scene, When done blind, the panel had a heck of a time telling the difference between the Castle and Conquest.

When they KNEW which was playing, the Conquest was preferred by a huge margin. :)


Craig, Have you compared the MFW-15 to the PB12-Ultra yet? I think I read that was going to be the guinnea pig..or so to speak.

Can't wait for the scores...thinking of maybe going with a pair to replace my PC12-Ultra....

I am wondering how the MFW-15 stacks up against the Castle I have on order.

When they KNEW which was playing, the Conquest was preferred by a huge margin. :)Of course :D

On the WOTW Pods scene, When done blind, the panel had a heck of a time telling the difference between the Castle and Conquest.

When they KNEW which was playing, the Conquest was preferred by a huge margin. :)

That pretty much sums up most of the A/V World right there! Test something based on performance alone and most people will have a heck of a time telling similar products apart. But as soon as they know which is which, they'll all of a sudden see/hear HUGE difference based on their preconceived ideas of which one is better. It's this same way with 720p vs. 1080p. It's this same way with cables and speaker wire. It's this same way with amplifiers, processors and sources.

You'd think people would be happy when blind testing reveals that a less expensive product is virtually indistinguishable from a more expensive one, but that isn't what happens, is it? The people who bought the more expensive one are all pissed off and claim that something must be wrong with the test. Even the people who bought the less expensive one sometimes don't want to believe the results because it's so engrained into our psyches that "you get what you pay for" and "more expensive means better".

As always, there's no convincing the people who are defending something other than actual performance. Perception and pride will have more of an impact on what people hear than real sound. You could literally have two identical subs, but dress one up all fancy, price it at 4x the cost and tell people that it's better and people will swear up and down that it really is!

Jon

That pretty much sums up most of the A/V World right there! Test something based on performance alone and most people will have a heck of a time telling similar products apart. But as soon as they know which is which, they'll all of a sudden see/hear HUGE difference based on their preconceived ideas of which one is better. It's this same way with 720p vs. 1080p. It's this same way with cables and speaker wire. It's this same way with amplifiers, processors and sources.

You'd think people would be happy when blind testing reveals that a less expensive product is virtually indistinguishable from a more expensive one, but that isn't what happens, is it? The people who bought the more expensive one are all pissed off and claim that something must be wrong with the test. Even the people who bought the less expensive one sometimes don't want to believe the results because it's so engrained into our psyches that "you get what you pay for" and "more expensive means better".

As always, there's no convincing the people who are defending something other than actual performance. Perception and pride will have more of an impact on what people hear than real sound. You could literally have two identical subs, but dress one up all fancy, price it at 4x the cost and tell people that it's better and people will swear up and down that it really is!

Jon

Well said. what do you think about objective testing and let the buyers decide?

Craig,
Is there any chance that you could add the Behringer B2092A subwoofer to the budget sub test? They are going for around $200 and look like they could be a contender in the budget class. It is a dual 8" slot ported sub with 360 watt amp and weighs 73lbs. Its only spec'd down to 30hz but that's to be expected for $200. According to the spec sheet it can hit 117db. It's probably at 70hz with a burst and high distortion, but still.

Everyone that did blind testing between my old sub, and the new set up, said they could definitely tell a significant difference between the two. :cool:

You mean those who survived it?

Everyone that did blind testing between my old sub, and the new set up, said they could definitely tell a significant difference between the two. :cool:

Yeah, aren't you the guy that uses subwoofer's to hold up his roof? :D

Everyone that did blind testing between my old sub, and the new set up, said they could definitely tell a significant difference between the two. :cool:Did they like the old one better?:)

Everyone that did blind testing between my old sub, and the new set up, said they could definitely tell a significant difference between the two. :cool:

what was your previous sub? how did you cover up the new subs? or did you blindfold the person?

"blind" is not a very good way to explain, I can switch back and fourth between the subs, but its obvious, visually, when you see the drivers moving. lol
Previous sub was a SVS pb12/2 ultra. 20 db gain is pretty easy to distinguish.
Musically there is no comparison in sound quality,to us, for HT usage, it was closer, but we still preferred the new setup.

Sounds like the Epik Castle is pound for pound, dollar to dollar the best subwoofer on the planet...Al

Can somebody please point me to the MFW-15 web site? I googled it and I couldn't find the MFW-15 sub!

Bill

Can somebody please point me to the MFW-15 web site? I googled it and I couldn't find the MFW-15 sub!

Bill

http://www.**********/

you have to email them about it.

Sounds like the Epik Castle is pound for pound, dollar to dollar the best subwoofer on the planet...Al

Sweet! I just ordered one. I can't wait to shake the house! :eek:

I decided to start playing around with the Spectrum Lab software this week. Here is the LFE Feed from the Pulse DVD directly into my Mobile Pre (acting as a sound card) and into software:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/pulsescene.jpg

Talk about a torture test ... :eek:

:eek::eek::eek:

http://www.**********/

you have to email them about it.

Let me know if they get back to you. I emailed them on Monday morning to inquire about the MWF-15 and have yet to hear back from them. My enthusiasm into HT is rubbing on others and I'm helping them put a system together. Unfortunately, I'm not getting help from AV123.

I sure many many people emailed AV123 in regards to the MFW-15 after the reviews here. Have faith they will contact you.

Let me know if they get back to you. I emailed them on Monday morning to inquire about the MWF-15 and have yet to hear back from them. My enthusiasm into HT is rubbing on others and I'm helping them put a system together. Unfortunately, I'm not getting help from AV123.

Try calling them by phone.

In the sample posted, I used an enclosure 30% larger for the lower tuned sub. That is about the difference in the sizes between the Castle and the Tower.

What is getting rather annoying here is that people seem to prefer to speculate against what every modelling software will show, and against every design on the market.

People are also ignoring the basic question ... given the same driver and amp .. who thinks he could pick out the slightly larger sub, which is tuned lower over the slightly smaller sub, which is tuned higher, under blind conditions ?

I think the reason a lot of us seem to be speculating but really aren't is because we don't want to pit what one person says against another. We are trying to be nice. I was trying to deduce some facts but there seems to be a disconnect between claimed specifications and general knowledge. Since this information came from highly respected sources, care must be taken to tread lightly. If speaking in parables and using off the wall analogies are frowned upon in this thread or forum, then you all have my utmost apologies. :o

Regardless, what you are doing is a tremendous effort that's priceless for those looking to buy subwoofers. Whether you know it or not, your work will most likely accelerate the price/performance envelope. It's also because of your findings that I was able to quickly pick a subwoofer, with a high degree of confidence that the performance will exceed my expectations. :)

this thread is nearing 1/2 million views

if we each send craig 2 cents, he can test the gotham :D

The hell with gotham lets pay him to to test a7 and a7s -450

this thread is nearing 1/2 million views

if we each send craig 2 cents, he can test the gotham :D

Only problem is that half of those 1/2 million views have been me:rolleyes:

I don't have enough to pay for half a gotham:o

Until the MFW15 is listed on their website, you must call them to pre-order. Calling is better than email.

Send e-mail to: jguintana@**********
I have pre-order two MFW15 to be ready in March. They will be shipped to me via UPS Air Freight to Slovenia, Europe. :)

Only problem is that half of those 1/2 million views have been me:rolleyes:

I don't have enough to pay for half a gotham:o

LOL, i believe this board is set up to only count a single user once no matter how many times he or she visits the same thread

i just tried to click on a few other threads a few times to test it :D

Does the x-sub have a low output? Mine needs to be +9db on my receiver with speakers at -5.0 db, with the sub at three quarters volume, for it to be really significant. I tried it with both a coax in the LFE and a single RCA, and I get the same result.

What do I do? This thing had better not be broken, i shipped it across the border to Canada...

I have RTI A3's and a Pioneer 917VSX.

Does the x-sub have a low output? Mine needs to be +9db on my receiver with speakers at -5.0 db, with the sub at three quarters volume, for it to be really significant. I tried it with both a coax in the LFE and a single RCA, and I get the same result.

What do I do? This thing had better not be broken, i shipped it across the border to Canada...

I have RTI A3's and a Pioneer 917VSX.

i dont know how powerful a sub that is, but you might have it in a dead spot. have you tried different placements? like they say you can always do the crawl test, just dont let the wife see you!

Maybe I just don't know any better or don't have expectations like the rest of you guys but I listened to some things with my little Dayton SUB-120 last night and was pretty impressed once again. I don't get into my HT much these days but a friend came over last night that had not seen my room yet so I did a little demo and was pleasantly surprised. I can only imagine what it would be like if I went to something over a hundred bucks! :p I bet an A5-350 or an Epik Towr or Castle would make me a happy man. :D

Maybe I just don't know any better or don't have expectations like the rest of you guys but I listened to some things with my little Dayton SUB-120 last night and was pretty impressed once again. I don't get into my HT much these days but a friend came over last night that had not seen my room yet so I did a little demo and was pleasantly surprised. I can only imagine what it would be like if I went to something over a hundred bucks! :p I bet an A5-350 or an Epik Towr or Castle would make me a happy man. :D

Sometimes you just don't know what you don't know...:)

BTW, any chance your username means you are or were a skydiver?

BTW, any chance your username means you are or were a skydiver?

Yeah, years ago I tried it a few times and thought it was something I would want to do as a hobby so I made up an email address and that user name and have just been using it forever. The longer I wait to do it again the less I want to. I know the stats are good that you will never have an accident but it only takes once and man, what a way to go...:eek:

Yeah, years ago I tried it a few times and thought it was something I would want to do as a hobby so I made up an email address and that user name and have just been using it forever. The longer I wait to do it again the less I want to. I know the stats are good that you will never have an accident but it only takes once and man, what a way to go...:eek:

I know what you mean. I made 1000 jumps between 73 and 80 and I have been trying to get back out to make a few for old times sake. The stats are actually better now than then, but I'm older, somewhat wiser, and maybe with not as quick reflexes these days...

Sorry for the off topic everyone.

I know what you mean. I made 1000 jumps between 73 and 80 and I have been trying to get back out to make a few for old times sake. The stats are actually better now than then, but I'm older, somewhat wiser, and maybe with not as quick reflexes these days...

Sorry for the off topic everyone.

Yeah, it's much safer to watch people do crazy things from inside our home theaters! I like to think I would have the presence of mind and strength to cut away or get out of trouble if I had to but I just don't know. My wife wants kids now so I think my daredevil days may be over. If I'm going to die I want to make sure that at least the insurance money comes through.

Now she can just be mad at me for buying home theater toys like subwoofers! :D

Maybe I just don't know any better or don't have expectations like the rest of you guys but I listened to some things with my little Dayton SUB-120 last night and was pretty impressed once again. I don't get into my HT much these days but a friend came over last night that had not seen my room yet so I did a little demo and was pleasantly surprised. I can only imagine what it would be like if I went to something over a hundred bucks! :p I bet an A5-350 or an Epik Towr or Castle would make me a happy man. :D

its probably those rocking ascends you have drop. i think a castle would make any man happy.

its probably those rocking ascends you have drop. i think a castle would make any man happy.

I am loving the little Ascends now that they have some hours on them. Great bang for the buck for me. I just wonder if a big old honking sub would look out of place in my little room? The Dayton is small compared to some of the monsters Craigsub is reviewing. Anything larger and I might have to move it to the back of the room so as not to get in the way of my screen.

http://racerrex.smugmug.com/photos/226112407-L.jpg

So any more thoughts on the MFW-15's?

Is there an updated summary sheet with numbers and listening results? As I look back throught this thread, I find them from time to time. But I'm wondering if theres a master pages that contains the latest info on everything?

Thanks

Is there an updated summary sheet with numbers and listening results? As I look back throught this thread, I find them from time to time. But I'm wondering if theres a master pages that contains the latest info on everything?

Thanks

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136

Only thing that is missing from that post is the MFW-15. That post is regularly updated with new stuff.

hey craig. Now that you've had some time with the MFW I was wondering if you think someone could tell the difference between it and the eD A5 you reviewed previously in a double blind test.

LOL, i believe this board is set up to only count a single user once no matter how many times he or she visits the same thread

i just tried to click on a few other threads a few times to test it :D
I believe the board is set up to count every click in a specified time frame. So if you click some thread again and again, it won't register only after some specific time limit (an hour maybe). So no, we won't get the Gotham if every individual visitor would gave him two cents. :D

So I finally got around to watching Pulse. The movie was definitely one that can be watched only once. Hearing it, however, was something different. Each time a computer was shown I kept wondering, "Is this the scene?" Well, when it finally came around there was absolutely no mistaking it. I have no idea what the sound was supposed to represent, but there it was shaking my room and finding rattles I did not know existed. And it was 3 AM so I know my neighbors must have loved it! I had been wondering if my sub was still up to snuff, and I think I may have come to the conclusion that I don't really need to hear sounds like that any louder.

Ugh! give it up already. :eek:

Sorry for the OT post, but I gotta say I love the name Elguapo (it's from the movie Three Amigos, right. Geez, I hope it's not your real name. :o)

So I finally got around to watching Pulse. The movie was definitely one that can be watched only once. Hearing it, however, was something different. Each time a computer was shown I kept wondering, "Is this the scene?" Well, when it finally came around there was absolutely no mistaking it. I have no idea what the sound was supposed to represent, but there it was shaking my room and finding rattles I did not know existed. And it was 3 AM so I know my neighbors must have loved it! I had been wondering if my sub was still up to snuff, and I think I may have come to the conclusion that I don't really need to hear sounds like that any louder.

After all the talk about this movie (Pulse) I decided to get it today and try it out for myself. I am curious to see how my subs handle it.

Beware, it's not a good movie :p You've been warned. Oh, and I would recommend cooling your sub gains a bit to experience it the first time... it'll do damage.

michael

Sorry for the OT post, but I gotta say I love the name Elguapo (it's from the movie Three Amigos, right. Geez, I hope it's not your real name. :o)

Of course the real question is if he has a plethora (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6E682C7Jj4) of bass? :p

That, and we should make sure he isn't angry at something else and looking to take it out on someone else. ;)

what score did the mfw-15 get?

It's not out yet.

Of course the real question is if he has a plethora (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6E682C7Jj4) of bass? :p

That, and we should make sure he isn't angry at something else and looking to take it out on someone else. ;)

LOL!:)

After all the talk about this movie (Pulse) I decided to get it today and try it out for myself. I am curious to see how my subs handle it.

I got my Netflix copy of it today (HD DVD). The plan is to watch it on Saturday at my friend's new HT. We're planning to have a rather large number of subwoofers connected though, I think the effect will be nice :)

A curious thought I just had... how would some of the subwoofers that were reviewed early on fare today (assuming Craig still has them)? For instance, one of the Fathoms, the DD18 or the VTF3-HO? Would they still get the same rating when compared blind to some of these recent subs? Some of them are well over 1 year old.

Craig no longer have the fathom, the DD18 or the VTF3-HO

I got my Netflix copy of it today (HD DVD). The plan is to watch it on Saturday at my friend's new HT. We're planning to have a rather large number of subwoofers connected though, I think the effect will be nice :)

unfortunately, the HD-DVD transfer didn't have as sustained an LFE demand as the SD version for some odd reason.

unfortunately, the HD-DVD transfer didn't have as sustained an LFE demand as the SD version for some odd reason.

theres a reeeson! i cant believe it even went to hd. it was so bad i fell asleep10 min. in , woke up for something. it was probably the twins bottoming out.

The editors must've seen it as a flaw and "corrected" it.

A curious thought I just had... how would some of the subwoofers that were reviewed early on fare today (assuming Craig still has them)? For instance, one of the Fathoms, the DD18 or the VTF3-HO? Would they still get the same rating when compared blind to some of these recent subs? Some of them are well over 1 year old.

Considering the benchmarks are the same they shouldn't change. I think the velodyb DD-18 was the standard (hence the score of 100), so new subs should be easily compared because the metrics he's using are identical.

theres a reeeson! i cant believe it even went to hd. it was so bad i fell asleep10 min. in , woke up for something. it was probably the twins bottoming out.

the subwoofer nuts bought so many copies of the dvd that the studios thought it was very popular and put it out on hd :p

Sorry for the OT post, but I gotta say I love the name Elguapo (it's from the movie Three Amigos, right. Geez, I hope it's not your real name. :o)

Lol! Yeah, it's from the movie. It definately has nothing to do with the way I look! Still waiting for Carmen to open her flower to me.... ;)

I feel like a drooling dog just waiting to be thrown a bone of info on whatever next great sub Craig's reviewing. I'm not even in the market to buy one but I check this thread every hour! What's wrong with me?

AVS addiction. I bought a sub a month ago but I still keep reading and posting about all those other unrelated models.

I still have a prime contender from the original round of subs from a year ago, the PB12-Ultra. It makes for a nice barometer for use against the other subs in the high end, music system.

And I am not sure what others have found about Pulse HD-DVD .. but this came from the LFE output on my disc, the color scale is different than others have used, but there is strong bass to below 10 Hz.:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/pulsescene.jpg

The individual MFW-15 will go up on Sunday .. the duals the following week.

I also have an email into Chad about getting that Knight and a Tower ... the Knight and MFW-15 are naturals, while the Tower and duals are.

Hey craig I have dual Bic-H 100. Would you say 2 of them have they same output as the elemental designs a2-300.

i have a question about set-up. i stacked the twins(a2-300s) on top of each other last night.i set each to 80db, and combined they are putting out 86 db. when i get my caliber, monday, should i set that to 80db also? or should i reduce the gain on the twins to a combined 80db, and then set the caliber to 80db? i run my mains , center at 75db, my surrounds at 78db, but i like my subs a little hot.

... the Knight and MFW-15 are naturals, while the Tower and duals are.

Maybe I'm dense, but... what does this mean? Natural what? Tower and duals are? :confused:

Maybe I'm dense, but... what does this mean? Natural what? Tower and duals are? :confused:

My guess would be that he means the cabinets are unfinished with a "natural" finish. Not stained or painted while the Tower and duals are finished cabinets. I'm probably wrong but that's what I thought he meant.

I think he meant they are natural competitors - as are the Tower vs. dual MFW-15s. I could also be wrong.

I think he meant they are natural competitors - as are the Tower vs. dual MFW-15s. I could also be wrong.

Ah, yeah that makes more sense than my explanation. It is a competition after all.

unfortunately, the HD-DVD transfer didn't have as sustained an LFE demand as the SD version for some odd reason.

I have both versions, so I will try the regular, too. I was sufficiently rattled with the TrueHD version.

Well done Craig,

You have reviewed,ahem tested more subs of value than the so called "PRO" reviewers in mags. As they mostly review crapolla biggo crappo units worthy of a kitchen system. ;) And the best part people in the know can look at the charts and clearly see the measured performance,this is major plus.

Keep up the good work.

Now the top contenders are true top contenders,just get the Danley sub and the list will be close to complete(as far as the current subs go).

Also would be fun to see dual driver or single/dual PR LMS-5400 DIY thrown in,if not we have the ahem other sub tester who has data as it goes. The chart is nearly complete,quite impressive what a few dedicated auiophiles can do !

Well done Craig,

You have reviewed,ahem tested more subs of value than the so called "PRO" reviewers in mags. As they mostly review crapolla biggo crappo units worthy of a kitchen system. ;) And the best part people in the know can look at the charts and clearly see the measured performance,this is major plus.

Keep up the good work.

Now the top contenders are true top contenders,just get the Danley sub and the list will be close to complete(as far as the current subs go).

Also would be fun to see dual driver or single/dual PR LMS-5400 DIY thrown in,if not we have the ahem other sub tester who has data as it goes. The chart is nearly complete,quite impressive what a few dedicated auiophiles can do !


I have been a friend of Craig Chases' for a long time. He does great work, however, Tom Nousaine has had a tremendous amount of influence on the purchase of really fine subwoofers going back about 13 or 14 years.

Tom Nousaine's review of the Epik Conquest is shown on the Epik website. http://epiksubwoofers.com/blog/?p=17

I bought my first subwoofer, (about 11 years ago), based on a test by Tom Nousaine. Tom Nousaine has tested subwoofers from HSU, Velodyne, Genelec, SVS, JL Audio, B&W, M&K, Boston Acoustics, Revel, Thiel, Def Tech, Mirage, Paradigm, Klipsch, Bag End, and others.

Tom Nouaine has his own charts available. If you would like a link to the tests of the subwoofers tested by Tom Nousaine, I can provide the link to you.

I am sure that you know that in Tom Nousaines's comparison between the Epik Conquest and the $15,000 Velodyne DD-1812, and the ~$6,000 Genelec HTS6, the Epik Conquest significantly outperformed the DD-1812 and the Genelec HTS6 (between 12.5Hz and 25 Hz), at a minimum.

I have been a friend of Craig Chases' for a long time. He does great work, however, Clifford Franklin has had a tremendous amount of influence on the purchase of really fine subwoofers going back about 13 or 14 years.

Clifford Franklin's review of the Epik Conquest is shown on the Epik website. http://epiksubwoofers.com/blog/?p=17

I bought my first subwoofer, (about 11 years ago), based on a test by Clifford Franklin. Clifford Franklin has tested subwoofers from HSU, Velodyne, Genelec, SVS, JL Audio, B&W, M&K, Boston Acoustics, Revel, Thiel, Def Tech, Mirage, Paradigm, Klipsch, Bag End, and others.

Clifford Franklin has his own charts available. If you would like a link to the tests of the subwoofers tested by Clifford Franklin, I can provide the link to you.

I am sure that you know that in Clifford Franklin's comparison between the Epik Conquest and the $15,000 Velodyne DD-1812, and the ~$6,000 Genelec HTS6, the Epik Conquest significantly outperformed the DD-1812 and the Genelec HTS6 (between 12.5Hz and 25 Hz), at a minimum.

For some reason I couldn't read that post without mentally replacing Tom Nousain with Clifford Franklin.:p

Craig,
Is there any chance that you could add the Behringer B2092A subwoofer to the budget sub test? They are going for around $200-250 and look like they could be a contender in the budget class. It is a dual 8" slot ported sub with 360 watt amp and weighs 73lbs. Its only spec'd down to 30hz but that's to be expected for $200. According to the spec sheet it can hit 117db. It's probably at 70hz with a burst and high distortion, but still.

Craig,
I thought maybe this got lost in the avalanche of posts that flood this thread every day. I was very impressed with what I heard from one of these at a friends project studio. Yes,no,maybe?:)

i have a question about set-up. i stacked the twins(a2-300s) on top of each other last night.i set each to 80db, and combined they are putting out 86 db. when i get my caliber, monday, should i set that to 80db also? or should i reduce the gain on the twins to a combined 80db, and then set the caliber to 80db? i run my mains , center at 75db, my surrounds at 78db, but i like my subs a little hot.


You should turn the gain knobs down until the combined number is 80db.

You should turn the gain knobs down until the combined number is 80db.

thats what i was thinking thanks for the info. by the way the a2-300 isnt to bad a sub stacked that way. but at 4 ft. high all you really notice is how ugly they really are!

I have been a friend of Craig Chases' for a long time. He does great work, however, Tom Nousaine has had a tremendous amount of influence on the purchase of really fine subwoofers going back about 13 or 14 years.

Tom Nousaine's review of the Epik Conquest is shown on the Epik website. http://epiksubwoofers.com/blog/?p=17

I bought my first subwoofer, (about 11 years ago), based on a test by Tom Nousaine. Tom Nousaine has tested subwoofers from HSU, Velodyne, Genelec, SVS, JL Audio, B&W, M&K, Boston Acoustics, Revel, Thiel, Def Tech, Mirage, Paradigm, Klipsch, Bag End, and others.

Tom Nouaine has his own charts available. If you would like a link to the tests of the subwoofers tested by Tom Nousaine, I can provide the link to you.

I am sure that you know that in Tom Nousaines's comparison between the Epik Conquest and the $15,000 Velodyne DD-1812, and the ~$6,000 Genelec HTS6, the Epik Conquest significantly outperformed the DD-1812 and the Genelec HTS6 (between 12.5Hz and 25 Hz), at a minimum.

Well Craig cuts to the chase so to speak. :p In a short time(relative to the pro reviewers)he has compared the most significant subs. Not wasting time with the squeaky squakers save for two or three bass modules.But that is fine as it gives a point of reference.

He has done what I would not do,drag the subs outside...meaure them(pushing them,to get max output and graphs). This I respect.

DD-1812,a nicer looking fusion of a DD18 and DD12.No world beater in SPL,more of a sub for a music system where quality comes first and output,second.

JL should release the f1312 :p

You mentioned Nousaine and I did a little browsing and found this page interesting:

http://www.nousaine.com/multiple_subwoofers.htm

CRAIG et.al.

Just realized I haven't seen anything about acoustical
treatments -- bass traps. tube traps, diffusers etc -- in your testing scenarios.

What if any such thangs do you use and/or what are your thoughts on them. . . .

Are traps worth considering or is EQ as or more effective?


I'm curious cuz in my line of work I spend alot of time in great sounding recording / mixing studios and I see bass traps and other mechanical bass tuning devices all the time. . . . or are there other considerations at work in studios?


-30-

Of course sound treatment and bass traps will improve the sound of any room.

Reflections can be reduced or even eliminated,spots with uneven bass or major bumps in frequency greatly corrected,with treatment used right.

Craig and any serious reviewer has to measure a sub outside,here no walls will reinforce the output and you get consistent readings(providing you are in a quiet area and wind speed is near 0. Only reinforcement is the ground ,measuting a sub suspended would be a grand waste of time,as the sub will have at least one reinforcing surface.

In room,you have to factor the room gain and place the sub in exactly the same spot,even then you can have inconsistent data.As ports and driver/port facing will change redaings.

My two cents

craig,
what do you use now for your speakers and electronics?

Well Craig cuts to the chase so to speak. :p In a short time(relative to the pro reviewers)he has compared the most significant subs. Not wasting time with the squeaky squakers save for two or three bass modules.But that is fine as it gives a point of reference.

He has done what I would not do,drag the subs outside...meaure them(pushing them,to get max output and graphs). This I respect.

DD-1812,a nicer looking fusion of a DD18 and DD12.No world beater in SPL,more of a sub for a music system where quality comes first and output,second.

JL should release the f1312 :p


Outdoor measurements are the best way to test subwoofers, however, Tom Nousaine has done the most important testing of subwoofers in two rooms. For about the first 9 years, he used the same room in his house. Tom Nousaine did not test some of the subwoofers in a basement, or any other room in his house. Tom always tested the subwoofers in the best corner of the same room in his house.

When Tom Nousaine moved some years ago, his new living space increased to 7,500 cubic feet. Tom always mentions that to compare subs tested in the smaller room in his old house, you just add 2-3 db more output and 2-3 db deeper extension.

Ilkka does not publish his test results in a magazine, Ilkka now has perhaps the most widely respected testing procedures and specs available. I am sure that you are familiar with Ilkkas' test results on another Forum.

Doing multiple outdoor tests is time consuming. That is one reason that Craig Chase does a lot of his testing indoors. Erie, Pennsylvania is not a good place to do outdoor subwoofer testing between December and March.

Because Craig can do a lot of his testing indoors, Craig can "cut to the chase". I have been in touch with Craig, I respect his test results. Still, Tom Nousaine has a great track record.

I will have to post the link to Tom Nousaines tests. It is unfortunate that perhaps as few as 45% of the subs that Tom Nousaine has tested are in one place, (that I can provide the link to).

I am sure that you realize that the Genelec was the top performer in the tests by Keith yates, (that included outdoor testing).

My two cents

there we go, we're now 2 cents closer to the gotham :p

there we go, we're now 2 cents closer to the gotham :p

Ah! You beat me to it!:D

I am going to buy the Gotham,getting it in March. :p My two cents,well... they are going to help buy my own Gotham.

Epik ,yes one for me too. Last will be the big eD,it is one hefty and...large piece(plus packaging...:eek: ).

I am saving money eating Ramen soups ! No more lobster and filet mignon for me.

I am saving money eating Ramen soups ! No more lobster and filet mignon for me.

I eat leftover restaraunt bread with peanut butter and, sometimes, jelly. But I do have some ramen stashed too, just in case.

I am going to buy the Gotham,getting it in March. :p My two cents,well... they are going to help buy my own Gotham.

Epik ,yes one for me too. Last will be the big eD,it is one hefty and...large piece(plus packaging...:eek: ).

I am saving money eating Ramen soups ! No more lobster and filet mignon for me.

Dude you sounds like a broke 19 yr old college student. Anyways do whatever you need to ... Just get your stuff and post some pictures and charts ...... then your words would mean anything to me.

I also dream of getting multiple true subs for my HT but until and unless I materialize anything and share my experience with other members, my two cents would be meaningless.

So do us and yourself a favor. Get something first and then share your thoughts/ experience. Until then , save your two cents of mere speculations for now.

ACTIONS not WORDS......coz actions speaks louder then words..... ever heard of it?

Dude do whatever you need to ... Just get your stuff and post some pictures and charts ...... then your words would mean something to me. I also dream of getting 30+ true subs but until and unless I materialize it and share my experience with other members, my two cents would be meaningless.

So do us and yourself a favor. Get something first and then share your thoughts/ experience.

Actions speaks louder then words..... ever heard of it?

I'd be happy with just pictures. no graphs necessary. :)

ACTIONS not WORDS......coz actions speaks louder then words..... ever heard of it?

I think you're taking him WAY too seriously. Pretty sure he was being facetious (joking).

I think you're taking him WAY too seriously. Pretty sure he was being facetious (joking).

uhh, you do realize what his handle is, right? :D

Drnaive, looks like you're pretty new here since you only have 10 posts. TheEar may or may not purchase a Gotham but I wouldn't put it past him. He already has three JL Fathoms plus about a dozen other subs. He is truly a subwoofer-addict, Dude.

Drnaive, looks like you're pretty new here since you only have 10 posts. TheEar may or may not purchase a Gotham but I wouldn't put it past him. He already has three JL Fathoms plus about a dozen other subs. He is truly a subwoofer-addict, Dude.

I must have missed ear's pics of his 3 fathoms

Dude you sounds like a broke 19 yr old college student. Anyways do whatever you need to ... Just get your stuff and post some pictures and charts ...... then your words would mean anything to me.

I also dream of getting multiple true subs for my HT but until and unless I materialize anything and share my experience with other members, my two cents would be meaningless.

So do us and yourself a favor. Get something first and then share your thoughts/ experience. Until then , save your two cents of mere speculations for now.

ACTIONS not WORDS......coz actions speaks louder then words..... ever heard of it?

We can forgive you because you're new, but you have to know that theEAR is frigging rich! He has 28 subwoofers in his house!! He is a subwoofer freak. He will probably get the gotham for sure, and just wait...

We can forgive you because you're new, but you have to know that theEAR is frigging rich! He has 28 subwoofers in his house!! He is a subwoofer freak. He will probably get the gotham for sure, and just wait...

he is also known for a lot BS

but i like him for pure entertainment purposes. i never take anything he says seriously

when i see it, i'll believe it :p

When the Ear cranks up all of his subs simultaneously Quebec will physically separate from the rest of Canada (something the politicians couldn't do).

Dude you sounds like a broke 19 yr old college student. Anyways do whatever you need to ... Just get your stuff and post some pictures and charts ...... then your words would mean anything to me.

I also dream of getting multiple true subs for my HT but until and unless I materialize anything and share my experience with other members, my two cents would be meaningless.

So do us and yourself a favor. Get something first and then share your thoughts/ experience. Until then , save your two cents of mere speculations for now.

ACTIONS not WORDS......coz actions speaks louder then words..... ever heard of it?

Excuse me child ?

Broke...me ! Wow dude if I am broke I never noticed that. Charts, I am not going to do tests for you.This is my hobby not work, Craig, Ilkka and others do great charts. I take no orders from some e-thugs.

Actions not words, and who are you to give orders ? "COZ" I see your slang is top notch.

When the Ear cranks up all of his subs simultaneously Quebec will physically separate from the rest of Canada (something the politicians couldn't do).

La tu parles mon grand ! Puis le pire, c'est bien vrai.

Excuse me child ?

Broke...me ! Wow dude if I am broke I never noticed that. Charts, I am not going to do tests for you.This is my hobby not work, Craig, Ilkka and others do great charts. I take no orders from some e-thugs.

Actions not words, and who are you to give orders ? "COZ" I see your slang is top notch.

Ha ha! Pwned! :D Well his name did include the word "naive". :rolleyes:

e-thug, ha that's clever.

It's exchanges like this that make me wonder if there are similar forums in the Internet for mature adults?

It's exchanges like this that make me wonder if there are similar forums in the Internet for mature adults?

Yes there are and most of the time this is one of them! I apologize for my "fuel to the fire" comment.

It's exchanges like this that make me wonder if there are similar forums in the Internet for mature adults?

You are correct sir.

A wise person told me once ,do not start a conversation with an ignorant or you will smear yourself and gain nothing.

:o

You are correct sir.

A wise person told me once ,do not start a conversation with an ignorant or you will smear yourself and gain nothing.

:o

i think he meant you

j/k :p

Why don't you guys take this to PM and not muddy up this thread?

Why don't you guys take this to PM and not muddy up this thread?

you do realize that posts like yours add to the mud

just let it die just like every other OT convo in this thread does and stop trying to play moderator :p:D

Hi guys, I just returned from a biz trip, and see we are having fun here ... :p

Look for the numbers to get posted tomorrow on the MFW-15 as a single subwoofer, with the duals posted the following week. :)

you do realize that posts like yours add to the mud

just let it die just like every other OT convo in this thread does and stop trying to play moderator :p:D

:D

I have a question I'm hoping someone can answer. My HT room is 17x20x10 and I just got the HSU HO sub last week. Its good but I was expecting a little more. Is the room to big for that sub? I still have a few weeks to return it. Should I return it and get the epik castle or maybe conquest, or do I need another HO to really pressurize the room?

I have a question I'm hoping someone can answer. My HT room is 17x20x10 and I just got the HSU HO sub last week. Its good but I was expecting a little more. Is the room to big for that sub? I still have a few weeks to return it. Should I return it and get the epik castle or maybe conquest, or do I need another HO to really pressurize the room?

You might consider adding the MBM-12. Have you spoken to Dr. Hsu?

Yes I did. I talked to him about room placement and calibration. Haven't talked to him since. Since then, I've been reading about Epik and eD subs and I'm wondering if I should have gone that rout since I can still return the HSU. Dont want to wait 2-3 months for eD sub, that's why I asked about Epik.

Go for the Castle - my 2 cents

That's what I was thinking. Maybe I'll order it and get both in the same room for a while to compare. May the best one win. Do you think I'll notice a difference? According to craig, looks like it.

That's what I was thinking. Maybe I'll order it and get both in the same room for a while to compare. May the best one win. Do you think I'll notice a difference? According to craig, looks like it.

That would be your best option, play them both in your room, calibrate them and let them duke it out ;)

Craig,

Post the numbers,I will be watching. Lurking.

Did you have a chance to test the Seaton Submersive yet ? It is from what I read a very capable sub , would be great to see how it ranks among other respectable subwoofers.

Why does not anyone use HOT FUZZ for bass tests??? Lots-o-bass in that flick...

Why does not anyone use HOT FUZZ for bass tests??? Lots-o-bass in that flick...

Definitely. And after experiencing the premiere of Cloverfield last night, that is going to be excellent demo material. The bass felt in the theater at times was beyond belief. And it was a good movie too.

I just got WOTW to listen to my new sub when it arrives. I played it to see how it sounds with my old sub. On the scene where the machine comes out of the ground, when it makes its first loud deep noise just before going on a killing spree, my center channel sounded like a rattling blown speaker. I played the scene in dolby, and DTS, at high and low volumes and it always sounded the same. Is that just part of the sound track? My center is a Klipsch RC-52 and I am using a Denon AVR-3808ci.

Why does not anyone use HOT FUZZ for bass tests??? Lots-o-bass in that flick...

We did use Hot Fuzz in some earlier tests, but so few people know about the movie.

Numbers , graphs... bring them forward Craig. :)

The sub world will be so competitive you will have 1L of displacement for a dollar very soon. :p

I carried an MFW-15 outside this morning, before the snow started, and ran some graphs. Here are 2 interesting ones, done at 20 Hz.

In this graph, we were approaching the limits, but still getting a clean signal. 104.86 dB @ 20 Hz in 24 degree weather is pretty impressive.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/mfw15gp20ok.jpg

Note, in this graph, we tried to get 3 dB higher SPL, but got less than 0.5 dB SPL, and the limiter did its job ... odd order harmonics jumped, but not too badly.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/mfw15compression.jpg

The MFW-15 is definitely the real deal, and Mark Seaton did a terrific job.

I Am off to do some higher frequency tests, but thought you guys might like to see these 2 graphs.

craigsub, those are impressive # for a $600 sub. i am patiently waiting for rest of the results, and ranking.
if it wasnt for you everyone would be happy with what they have, and never get the urge to upgrade! just kidding!
i thank you for a job well done- it gives me something to look forward to.

I carried an MFW-15 outside this morning, before the snow started, and ran some graphs. Here are 2 interesting ones, done at 20 Hz.

In this graph, we were approaching the limits, but still getting a clean signal. 104.86 dB @ 20 Hz in 24 degree weather is pretty impressive.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/mfw15gp20ok.jpg

Note, in this graph, we tried to get 3 dB higher SPL, but got less than 0.5 dB SPL, and the limiter did its job ... odd order harmonics jumped, but not too badly.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/mfw15compression.jpg

The MFW-15 is definitely the real deal, and Mark Seaton did a terrific job.

I Am off to do some higher frequency tests, but thought you guys might like to see these 2 graphs.

thanks craig, what is "odd order harmonics" is that distortion ?


p.s. they just ran the "brown note" test on myth busters on the discovery channel :D

thanks craig, what is "odd order harmonics" is that distortion ?


p.s. they just ran the "brown note" test on myth busters on the discovery channel :D

The 60 Hz is 3rd order, and 100 Hz is 5th order, 140 is 7th ... etc ... or "odd order" harmonics.

The 60 Hz is 3rd order, and 100 Hz is 5th order, 140 is 7th ... etc ... or "odd order" harmonics.

is that good or bad that they jumped

is that good or bad that they jumped

You don't want the to jump, that is a sign the unit is compressing.

BUT ... All subs will have a distortion jump at some point. In this case, it is at 105 dB, which is remarkable for a $600 sub.

Here are the objective results:

20 Hz: 105 dB. 20-63 Hz Average: 112 dB

We saw over 110 dB @ 32 Hz ... this sub is definitely a nice endorsement for Mark Seaton.

Outdoor measurements are the best way to test subwoofers, however, Tom Nousaine has done the most important testing of subwoofers in two rooms. For about the first 9 years, he used the same room in his house. Tom Nousaine did not test some of the subwoofers in a basement, or any other room in his house. Tom always tested the subwoofers in the best corner of the same room in his house.

When Tom Nousaine moved some years ago, his new living space increased to 7,500 cubic feet. Tom always mentions that to compare subs tested in the smaller room in his old house, you just add 2-3 db more output and 2-3 db deeper extension.

Ilkka does not publish his test results in a magazine, Ilkka now has perhaps the most widely respected testing procedures and specs available. I am sure that you are familiar with Ilkkas' test results on another Forum.

Doing multiple outdoor tests is time consuming. That is one reason that Craig Chase does a lot of his testing indoors. Erie, Pennsylvania is not a good place to do outdoor subwoofer testing between December and March.

Because Craig can do a lot of his testing indoors, Craig can "cut to the chase". I have been in touch with Craig, I respect his test results. Still, Tom Nousaine has a great track record.

I will have to post the link to Tom Nousaines tests. It is unfortunate that perhaps as few as 45% of the subs that Tom Nousaine has tested are in one place, (that I can provide the link to).

I am sure that you realize that the Genelec was the top performer in the tests by Keith yates, (that included outdoor testing).

Chuck Norris could kill Tom Nousaine with his pinky finger without even moving it.

You don't want the to jump, that is a sign the unit is compressing.

BUT ... All subs will have a distortion jump at some point. In this case, it is at 105 dB, which is remarkable for a $600 sub.

Here are the objective results:

20 Hz: 105 dB. 20-63 Hz Average: 112 dB

We saw over 110 dB @ 32 Hz ... this sub is definitely a nice endorsement for Mark Seaton.Nice. Compared to the competitors:

Epik Castle: 20Hz 108.5 dB. 20-63Hz avg. 115.5 dB

SVS PB13-Ultra: 20 Hz: 108 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 113.5 dB

AV123 MFW-15: 20 Hz: 105 dB. 20-63 Hz Average: 112 dB

eD A5-350: 20 Hz: 105 dB. 20-63 Hz average: 111 dB

Epik Valor: 20Hz 99 dB. 20-63Hz avg. 109 dB

Seems very similar to the A5.

Chuck Norris could kill Tom Nousaine with his pinky finger without even moving it.

LOL!

Best joke of the thread!

p.s. they just ran the "brown note" test on myth busters on the discovery channel :D[/QUOTE]

And? So, did you have any "accidents" watching the show?:p

Well, it appears that price and performance-wise, we have a barn-burner (at least by the numbers) between the A5-350 and the MFW-15. Now - I am currently 'awaiting woodshop' like many of you out there on the eD sub right now, but the first-peek performance shown in craig's graphs are intriguing enough now for me to 1.) post for the first time in this incredible thread for us sub freaks and 2.) for me to potentially reconsider my 'awaiting woodshop' status with eD.

Let me caveat this just a little bit now before I go on...

o I ordered the A5-350 just before Jan. 1 and as such I'm getting the 550W amp and a huge bang for the buck package on this sub as it was offered at the $600 SI price at that time.
o I know craig's final scoring has yet to come out as I write this and I will await his final numbers before anything is decided or done.
o I dont know at this point whether the av123 backlog on the MFW-15 is such that I will be 'awaiting woodshop' for the better part of the first half of this year on that sub (does anyone wager a guess at how long this is?)

So given all of that I have a couple of questions...

1.) To the current owners/users of your pre-Jan. 1 eD A5-350 - how is the music performance? (I am a tiny bit concerned about the lower scoring of the eD sub in the music category - especially as it compares to the MFW.)
2.) To everyone - how much of a difference will it make in overall sound between the MFW-15 and the A5-350 that the A5 is downward firing with rear ports vs. the MFW and its forward facing driver and slot (or really any forward facing setup - any Epik owners care to weigh in?)
3.) To craigsub (or anyone else who had heard both of these beauts) - Given that you have heard both, seen both, and felt both, which of the two, overall, bang-for-the-buck-wise is really going to edge the other out? (Ahha - the ultimate question ;-) )



TIA,

Blaiser

Numbers , graphs... bring them forward Craig. :)

The sub world will be so competitive you will have 1L of displacement for a dollar very soon. :p

HSU has the turbo option to compensate for displacement.:p

What is most impressive is that a single MFW 15 can hang with an SVS PB13-Ultra in-between the important 20-63 hz range. :eek:

All this for $599 ? Unbelievable. Let's just hope that the subjective listening results match the impressive output figures.

--Regards,

I have a feeling that Craig's gonna give the MFW15 a 104 score.

Mark Seaton did a most impressive feat,all this performance from what looks on the surface like no a world beater...turns to be one !

Bravo


$599 WOW ...Mark Seaton may endanger DIY if he continues to design subs like these. ;)

WOW again,now where is that pile of crow I have to eat.

Extrapolating from the test results, a single SVS PB12-Ultra scored 102 dB's at 20 hz and 109 dB's in the 20-63 hz bandwidth. It has been mentioned on several occasions that a single PB12-Ultra can best dual PB-10's in maximum output.

Well, based on the figures, spending an additional $170 or so will now get you around three times the performance of a single PB-10 subwoofer. :eek:

--Regards,

Well still as it has been mentioned, what are the odds of getting a Seaton Submerssive1? It should definatly be an interesting contender against stacked MFW-15's considering it is a duel 15inch design and it's low output is supposed to be rediculous, any consideration of adding this sub to this list?

Craig,

You're KILLING us here, dude.

Well at least these things ship to my country. I might need to get two of them. :D

--Regards,

Craig,

You're KILLING us here, dude.

I think Craig knows how we get when he is going to post this info. He probably sits around with his finger hovering over the "post" link only to yell "SIIIIIIKE" at the screen and laugh to himself. :D

I've been on the pre-order list for two of these for quite a bit and we gotta wait another week for his results?! The nerve of some people! :D (I'm waiting for his results like a kid waiting for a comic book LOL)

I have a feeling that Craig's gonna give the MFW15 a 104 score.

Much to high... 95-98 would be my guess.

Looks like I was wrong. re: 103
I was expecting (50/48) not a (53/50).

Being that it scored higher then the trinity, while being stomped by it db wise, I would assume the high results are due to clarity and articulation. Craig?

Results are up ... for a single MFW-15. :)

Just out of curiosity...

Craig mentioned that he felt the Epik Valor would be an even better performer (than what he found himself) in a smaller room than what he had it in. I have an SVS PB10 and was wondering if anyone can comment whether a Valor would be an upgrade in terms of HT. I love the idea of this sub for music, but I want to get back to where the bass output can knock me around a bit. I'm probably going to end up with a PB13, but wanted to give a Valor a shot out of curiosity.

Anyone? Craig?

Much to high... 95-98 would be my guess.

Looks like I was wrong. re: 103
I was expecting (50/48) not a (53/50).

Being that it scored higher then the trinity, while being stomped by it db wise, I would assume the high results are due to clarity and articulation. Craig?

You are correct ... This is mentioned in the summary of the Trinity: If it is used from 50 or 60 Hz and down, it would score higher ... while it delivers a LOT of SPL, it is not as good a sounding sub as most others.

I like it ... but I guess another way to put this .. The Trinity is not hooked up, while the Ultra is going into my high end system, and the MFW-15's into the main theater.

I was joking about getting 8 MFW-15's. I am no longer joking. :)

Much to high... 95-98 would be my guess.

Looks like I was wrong. re: 103
I was expecting (50/48) not a (53/50).

Being that it scored higher then the trinity, while being stomped by it db wise, I would assume the high results are due to clarity and articulation. Craig?

wow! my guess was around 98 also. now im wondering where the knight and the caliber are going to land?

103 :confused::eek::rolleyes::cool::p;):D

I wonder if Mr Seaton would hazzard to guess the performance of a Submerssive on this scale based on the MFW result

May be the scale needs a overhaul.

this will mean quite the boom in sales for the mwf-15, they better get ready!

p.s. they just ran the "brown note" test on myth busters on the discovery channel :D

And? So, did you have any "accidents" watching the show?:p

nope, i'm still clean. was cool to watch though. nice stacks of subs :cool:

May be the scale needs a overhaul.

We still have 5 of the top 10 in the list here. This allows us to get pretty predictable results.

Also ... It is interesting to take a standard bearer sub, like the PB12-Ultra, and compare it to the newer stuff. The PB13-Ultra, for example, is a BIG step forward from the old Ultra, even when the bass levels are modest.

The old Ultra is being kept, as will several others, for months to come.

Is there something specific you think needs changed ? If so, please, drop me a PM.

I actually thought he was joking, meaning the Submerssive was OFF the scale

Congratulations to Mark Seaton! http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif

A pair of these is going to give the other subs higher up on the list a run for the money I think... watch out Castle/PB13... :)

I'm really glad that I ordered a pair of these when I did...:D

Thanks for taking the time to do this Craig!

Holy Mackerel!

That is the EXACT same score (53+50) that the $3,500 JL Audio Fathom 113 got.:eek:

Think the phone lines might be a little busy at AV123 Monday morning?

JL audio Fathom = MFW-15

Hmm. May be third party objective tests from AVtalk and Ikka will be worth waiting for on MFW-15.

This is fantastic news for us...we are extremely proud of this new product and cant thank Craig enough for taking the time to do all this.... :D

I wonder if Mr Seaton would hazzard to guess the performance of a Submerssive on this scale based on the MFW result

My guess would be a point or two over how the pair of MFW-15's perform which I suppose we will find out next week. According to Mark, the Submersive outperforms the pair of MFW's up high but in ways more subtle than he would like to admit (given the pricing). In most rooms the Submersive will extend deeper due to its slower roll off coupling with room gain but I am not sure how that will show up in Craig's tests or how many points it will translate into. I am curious what the out door 20 hz number on the submersive will be without any room gain to help it out.

This is fantastic news for us...we are extremely proud of this new product and cant thank Craig enough for taking the time to do all this.... :D

So is it available to order? Don't see it on your website.

Should be listed in the new website that we hope to have ready this Monday. We do have a big pre order but things are moving better now.

Craig, any news on when the little guys' scores will be done?

Should be listed in the new website that we hope to have ready this Monday. We do have a big pre order but things are moving better now.

So what would the lead time be come Monday assuming we can order then? Are we talking days, weeks, more?

JL audio Fathom = MFW-15

Hmm. May be third party objective tests from AVtalk and Ikka will be worth waiting for on MFW-15.

Have you ever seen a Fathom 113? The part that is hard to believe is that JL was able to achieve that much performance out of a box so small. The Fathom's size seriously compromises performance yet they are able to over come the challenges with power and $$$$$. The MFW-15 is large box with a large slot port, so while you might have to work harder to get one past the wife, it will not have to work nearly as hard to achieve its output levels, and hence AV 123 and Seaton can deliver it a heck of a lot cheaper.

So what would the lead time be come Monday assuming we can order then? Are we talking days, weeks, more?

Call the phone number and you will be able to order even if it is not on the web yet. After this review, the time you call on Monday could make a difference in weeks!

The MFW-15 is large box with a large slot port, so while you might have to work harder to get one past the wife,

Does this mean that you have seen one or have pictures? I'm late to the party and have no clue. Been following the thread for a little while but just recently heard of the MFW-15.


Just saw your comment about ordering. Thanks!

the time frame as of my order last wk. was sometime in march for the mfw-15

Does this mean that you have seen one or have pictures? I'm late to the party and have no clue. Been following the thread for a little while but just recently heard of the MFW-15.

There have been a number of drawings/renderings and photos of the MFW-15 prototypes and recently the early production units posted over on the AV123 forum. Many are collected in this "news and announcements" thread http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=25931

I have yet to hear one, but I do have a SubMersive so i have a frame of reference for what Seaton is capable of.

Does this mean that you have seen one or have pictures? I'm late to the party and have no clue. Been following the thread for a little while but just recently heard of the MFW-15.


Just saw your comment about ordering. Thanks!


You can also find pics here (http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=27472)...:)

I can't believe a $599 sub scored 103 points!!! Especially a 50 in music is astonishing.

Me thinks eD, epik, and everyone else might be getting some cancelations come Monday morning...

WOW, WOW, WOW do my eye's decieve, is that score really 103. The Master of Bass hit the ball out of the park with this one. Thanks Craig for the hard work and giving me a better appreciation for what I have been waiting for, for well over a year. MLS and Mark Seaton seem to be a great team. Well done to you both and congrats!

Impressive.

This may or may not interest anyone ... but here are some ideas of relative sizes of some of the subs, in terms of total cubic feet ...

eD A7-900: 19.5
SVS PB-13: 7.22
Epik Castle: 7.04
AV-123 MFW-15: 5.63
JL Audio Fathom: 3.63

Subwoofer companies better be scared of the MFW-15... Start driving prices down (or make higher performance subwoofers) SVS, Epik, eD, etc...

Subwoofer companies better be scared of the MFW-15... Start driving prices down (or make higher performance subwoofers) SVS, Epik, eD, etc...

When you consider how the A7-900, Castle, and Conquest fared ... all are quite a bit higher than what the MFW-15 scored ... What we are seeing is a re-writing of what is available for the price over the last year.

For example .. how would 4 MFW-15's compare to a single A7-900 ?

And how will the New A7-450 do ?

Epik, eD, and AV123 are making some fantastic values.

Given the incredible numbers of the Conquest and Castle, I can't wait to see how the Knight performs. It will do very well I'm sure but can it match the MFW 15 in the areas of wife acceptance?

Great days to be a bass head for sure.

Kudos to Seaton, this sub really surprised me with its ratings.

the Fathom wins the volume battle and if I'm not mistaken, the SVS PC Ultra wins the weight and sq ft battle being the lightest of the monster subs while taking up the least floor space

just more reasons why there is no one best sub

Where can I order the mfw-15? I'm thinking av123forum but where exactly?

Where can I order the mfw-15? I'm thinking av123forum but where exactly?

According to people here you need to call them next week or wait for the new website to come online Monday and it will be there I think.

Me thinks eD, epik, and everyone else might be getting some cancelations come Monday morning...

yeah, I canceled my eD order after Craig's prelim results, and have ordered dual MFW's (but I was thinking hard about doing it anyway, as Mark Schifter will have me as a loyal customer forever methinks, given what value I've gotten from him before, and the genuinely personal way in which he conducts business w/ us crazy bunch of internet schmoes :D).

Now, it doesn't mean I've canceled my Conquest order, of course. :p

Some things I just can't do...:D

AV123... looks to have a winner on there hands. Seems the bar has been significantally raised in the last year for price and performance...

53-50? 53-50?!!? :eek::eek::eek:

I was optimistically betting on 52-48, but this is much better! So according to you, Craig, the MWF-15 sounds as good with music as the $5,000 DD-18? Because I've heard one of those Velodyne's at a showroom and they blew my mind how musical they were.

This cinches it. AV123 is getting my money.

edit: Mark Seaton is a god among men.

Dual MFW 15 subwoofers should be a pretty potent package no matter how you look at it.

--Regards,

Mark Seaton is the optimisation king among men. Next on Craig's menu ranking subwoofer designers. :p

a-v-1-2-3 for me! where's the end of the line at?!! *looking around frantically*

Haha, 103 points..a5-350 used to be "amazing bargain" but now it's more like a "bleh", and the similarly priced SVS and HSU are just complete jokes/ripoffs. That score better be truly objective.

Haha, 103 points..a5-350 used to be "amazing bargain" but now it's more like a "bleh", and the similarly priced SVS and HSU are just complete jokes/ripoffs. That score better be truly objective.

Well... the a5-350 is a wonderful product - and their buyers know that all too well...

It took us long enough - but Mark and I are really confident that this package at this price certainly represents a solid value when judging all the factors... When factoring these in pairs - well that needs to be "explored" as well...

I'm also very resolute in my belief that the x-plosive at it's price ($399) will also set some new measurables and targets for our estimable competitors... I believe several folks heard a prototype sample today of the x-plosive, and I'll sure be curious as to what our Little Beast had to say for itself...

In any event... we are building them daily - and we ARE executing on a fairly aggressive Production Plan... With each arriving container from Cali, Colombia comes more enclosures... We are building these out in Colorado for now - but later they will be completed and tested in Colombia - shipped in all ready to go...

All the best...

mls

Haha, 103 points..a5-350 used to be "amazing bargain" but now it's more like a "bleh", and the similarly priced SVS and HSU are just complete jokes/ripoffs. That score better be truly objective.

I haven't heard anyone refer to the A5-300 as "bleah" nor similarly priced SVS and HSU subs being classified as jokes or ripoffs. In fact all of the companies you mentioned are well respected and known for making great products at a great price.

Yeah I know thats what everyone always says..but if that was the case, the whole list would be fake/mean nothing. There's only one truth - so which is it?

bloody hell Craig. looks like when this is available ex-stock, I'll look at ordering me an MFW or two.

the Fathom wins the volume battle and if I'm not mistaken, the SVS PC Ultra wins the weight and sq ft battle being the lightest of the monster subs while taking up the least floor space

just more reasons why there is no one best sub

meh, you get 1 point out of 100 (IMO) for "taking up the least floor space", and 3 out of 100 for "being the lightest".

Of course I'm not married though....:D

This is fantastic news for us...we are extremely proud of this new product and cant thank Craig enough for taking the time to do all this.... :D

Hey, I noticed you are in Orem, Utah. Will you by chance be carrying any inventory down there? Thanks, Brian

Just to be sure, when comparing eD subs against the rest, shipping is included with the eD's whereas you might pay $100 or more to have a for example MWF-15 shipped? Can someone verify this? That would put the A5-350, with current pricing right on par with the MWF-15?

i've had a trinity sub (which i got at a great discount) for about 7 months now and i absolutely LOVE it. i have crossover at 60hz and this thing ROCKS the house. on music this thing is tight and hard-hitting and i was thinking of adding another in march...

but HOLY CRAP!!!

these new subs keep getting cheaper and cheaper, scoring close in the slam dept. and several points higher on music...GEEZ


i like the thought of twin trinitys up front, but hell, i might have to find a way to get a couple of these "new kids on the block" in my set-up!!

DANG!!

these are great times we're living in my friends...

Can someone lead me to the updated ranking list?
Can't seem to find it. :confused:

Just click on the link in the signature of any Craigsub post, and you'll get this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136).

Craig,

For a small to medium sized room that is closed off (meaning does not open up to another room and has low ceilings) would you recommend 2 MFW-15's or 1 Epik Castle/Tower? I am a huge bass head and while I think either sub would fit my needs, I can only afford to make the purchase once. I will be listening to 60% HT, 35% gaming, 5% music and space is not an issue.

I'm not Craig but I'll offer my advice to you. According to the test results, dual MFW-15's co-located will produce cleaner, lower distortion output within the specified 20 hz to 63 hz bandwidth. Maximum output will be higher and dynamic peaks should sound subjectively cleaner.

Cheers.

--Regards,

I know this was posted before - but I can't find it. What are the dimensions of the MFW-15. I am awaiting (2) pb13 ultras, but am thinking of adding (2) MFW-15's. The room is 23x17x12 ft tray ceiling. However it is 100% wide open/no walls at all to another 18x23x10. I am coming up with 8832 total c/f. Would this be too many subs? How difficult would it be to intergrate (4) subs into the room? Would I have too much cancellation? :)

So the MFW-15 scored better then the Velo DD-18 in terms of HT and equalled it in music?? Astonishing, seems unbelievable. Mark L S - I seem to recall a potential get together happening in Toronto back in Sept that was delayed .... tell me you're coming at some point!

meh, you get 1 point out of 100 (IMO) for "taking up the least floor space", and 3 out of 100 for "being the lightest".

Of course I'm not married though....:D

no back problems either eh? ;)

Craig - didn't see this in the post on your first page. But when you say the subs are tested "blind", do you test one against the other? I.e., to score the MFW, did you/the panel blind test it against the PB13 or some other previously tested/scored sub (s)?

Tx

Craig - didn't see this in the post on your first page. But when you say the subs are tested "blind", do you test one against the other? I.e., to score the MFW, did you/the panel blind test it against the PB13 or some other previously tested/scored sub (s)?

Tx

A partial chronology over the past 2 + years ... All these blind tests occured...

DD-18 - Maestro
DD-18 - PB12-Ultra
DD-18 - Fathom 113
Fathom 113 - Fathom 112
EP-500 - DD-18
EP-500 - PB12-Ultra
PB12-Ultra - VTF-3 HO
PB12-Ultra - VTF-3.3
Fathom 113 - A7-900
Fathom 113 - A5-350
Fathom 113 - PB13-Ultra
PB-13 Ultra - Conquest
PB-13 Ultra - Castle
Conquest - Castle
PB13-Ultra - MFW-15

The list goes on ... The Valor, etc ... all getting a lot of blind testing. Every subwoofer gets tested against its peers. They are properly eq'ed, level matched, and placed in the same spot as the previous.

The GTG we had here 2 years ago was a pretty good example of how things are done.

So the MFW-15 scored better then the Velo DD-18 in terms of HT and equalled it in music?? Astonishing, seems unbelievable. Mark L S - I seem to recall a potential get together happening in Toronto back in Sept that was delayed .... tell me you're coming at some point!

Keep in mind the Velo also includes the SMS-1 "built in". The driver in the MFW-15 is a longer throw, and has more output in the deep stuff.

We don't count price, nor size ... so is it really a big surprise that Mark Seaton took a very good 15 inch driver, and designed a ported subwoofer that outperforms a lower excursion, 18 inch driver in a sealed cabinet ?

One area that has definitely changed in subwoofer design ... the new ported designs are giving nothing up in the arena of musicality to the sealed designs.

I could not say that 2 years ago ... and a listen to the old Ultra to the new Ultra will demonstrate this to anyone. :)

I'm really glad that I ordered a pair of these when I did...:D

Thanks for taking the time to do this Craig!

You mean like 2 years ago...
;)

(j/k)

I see a lot of discussion here about pairing subs or even having 4 or more in a room that I would consider somewhat on the small side. I would certainly describe my room that way at only about 18x13 with 8' ceilings. My question is this. If I'm considering a MFW-15 or an Epik Valor for example, am I going to need more than one sub to get the performance I have in mind? I know it's difficult to convey what any one persons expectations may be but based on my room size does anyone think that I will be "underwhelmed" with just a single sub? I just want clean hard hitting bass for movies. I don't do much if any music listening in my HT but I want people to leave a movie feeling like they were pushed around a little if you know what I mean.

Just click on the link in the signature of any Craigsub post, and you'll get this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136).

Thanks Rijax.

If I'm considering a MFW-15 or an Epik Valor for example, am I going to need more than one sub to get the performance I have in mind?

It all depends how one defines "hard hitting bass". One mans "hard hitting" is another mans "not enough".

In terms of clean output, the MFW-15 should easily out gun an Epik Valor at pretty much any playback level you choose. In fact, at 20 hz, you will need dual Epik Valors to equal the performance of a single MFW-15.

--Regards,

I would certainly describe my room at about 18x13 with 8' ceilings. My question is this. If I'm considering a MFW-15 or an Epik Valor for example, am I going to need more than one sub to get the performance I have in mind? I know it's difficult to convey what any one persons expectations may be but based on my room size does anyone think that I will be "underwhelmed" with just a single sub?

My room is 13x19 with one 15 in. sealed corner-placed sub. I can't imagine needing more. It's 10 years old and certainly not SOTA. If I were to upgrade to a more contemporary, advanced design (think 16-46PCi), one would still suffice. I can't imagine you being underwhelmed. Will your room be sealed or open?

It all depends how one defines "hard hitting bass". One mans "hard hitting" is another mans "not enough".

In terms of clean output, the MFW-15 should easily out gun an Epik Valor at pretty much any playback level you choose. In fact, at 20 hz, you will need dual Epik Valors to equal the performance of a single MFW-15.

--Regards,

Yeah, I know what you mean there. Considering what I would be coming from (Dayton SUB-120) I can't imagine being anything but pleased but I have a feeling that subwoofers can become a hobby in and of themselves as in "it's never enough". Thanks for the info on those two models. That makes my decision much easier.

I was just looking at the Epik Knight ... it is in the same size cabinet as the Castle ... that's one BIG $599 subwoofer.

This is going to be really interesting ...

Chad Kuypers Vs. Mark Seaton in a $599 sub comparison ? :D

My room is 13x19 with one 15 in. sealed corner-placed sub. I can't imagine needing more. It's 10 years old and certainly not SOTA. If I were to upgrade to a more contemporary, advanced design (think 16-46PCi), one would still suffice. I can't imagine you being underwhelmed. Will your room be sealed or open?

The room is really just a spare bedroom and it will be only be sealed by a closed door. It's upstairs and in the front right corner of the house. Not ideal for it's purpose but it was the only free space that would work here, kind of like a bonus room but without the pitched roof. Luckily, whatever sub I go with can be black and does not need to blend like a piece of furniture. The wife has surrendered this room to me and everything in there is black except for the carpet. Think Bat Cave.
:D

Wow, the MFW-15 score is impressive. Makes me regret my Valor purchase a bit but I'm not sure I could wait until March.

Can someone lead me to the updated ranking list?
Can't seem to find it. :confused:

It is on page 1 of this Thread!:)

I just got WOTW to listen to my new sub when it arrives. I played it to see how it sounds with my old sub. On the scene where the machine comes out of the ground, when it makes its first loud deep noise just before going on a killing spree, my center channel sounded like a rattling blown speaker. I played the scene in dolby, and DTS, at high and low volumes and it always sounded the same. Is that just part of the sound track? My center is a Klipsch RC-52 and I am using a Denon AVR-3808ci.

Hey Craig,

I'm still at Itai's home (aka cubesys) from yesterday's meet. Of course I'm very happy to hear you and your review panel enjoyed the MFW-15 so much. What I haven't seen an update to is what your lovely wife's rankings are. As I recall the scoring was quite comedic. :)

Cheers,

Please excuse my ignorance, but has there been a comparison between the Conquest and the A7-450. I've been reading much of this thread but was unable to find anything. It would appear that with the same size driver and similar design the specs would be close.

I'm glad to see the MFW 15 perform so well. I can only imagine what the BMF will do. :cool:

Thank Craig for your hard work.

I was just looking at the Epik Knight ... it is in the same size cabinet as the Castle ... that's one BIG $599 subwoofer.

This is going to be really interesting ...

Chad Kuypers Vs. Mark Seaton in a $599 sub comparison ? :D

does that mean you have a knight? if so when will the testing begin?

Hey Craig,

I'm still at Itai's home (aka cubesys) from yesterday's meet. Of course I'm very happy to hear you and your review panel enjoyed the MFW-15 so much. What I haven't seen an update to is what your lovely wife's rankings are. As I recall the scoring was quite comedic. :)

Cheers,

I believe that is the one in which the A7-900 was selected as "Over my dead body", in regards to the WAF rating, and which subs were allowed in the house ? :D

does that mean you have a knight? if so when will the testing begin?

I don't have it yet, but am scheduled to get one soon.

I also have been communicating with a pretty well known manufacturer, and they are going to have a new sub design ready in March. I cannot tell you guys who it is, but the name rhymes with stew. :p

hsu?

hsu?



ya think...?

You know what the most impressive part of the MFW15 is to me? It's the fact that they produced such an impressive performing sub that is competing with the other guys and they are doing it with nicer finishes. There have been several guys in this thread that have been going on and on about how they only care about performance and don't care about looks, now there is an option for the rest of us that want performance and looks at a price a lot of us can afford. Great job Mark and Mark!

Craig,

If you ever want to test a SubMersive before Seaton gets you one, send me a PM over at av123 and I am sure I could manage the drive.

You know what the most impressive part of the MFW15 is to me? It's the fact that they produced such an impressive performing sub that is competing with the other guys and they are doing it with nicer finishes. There have been several guys in this thread that have been going on and on about how they only care about performance and don't care about looks, now there is an option for the rest of us that want performance and looks. Great job Mark and Mark!

Exactly, some of us can't put black coffins in our homes! I think the bruise my wife gave me when she saw the Rosewood PB-13 and thought that was too big is just now starting to heal 3 months later.

I believe that is the one in which the A7-900 was selected as "Over my dead body", in regards to the WAF rating, and which subs were allowed in the house ? :D

I can actually hear your beautiful wife saying that Craig...

:)

Best...

mls

I know this was posted before - but I can't find it. What are the dimensions of the MFW-15.

I was wondering the same thing, dug around, and found this:

http://av123.wetpaint.com/page/MFW-15+Subwoofer

Though they are probably close, I'm not sure those dimensions are correct. They refer to the original design that had a base larger than the subwoofer itself (see the photo of the black MFW-15). The photo of the MFW-15 with the wood finish shows the final design without the larger base. I do not know if, in the process of losing the base, the overall dimensions changed as well.

^Cool. If anybody knows the exact size/weight specs on the production MFW-15, it would be much appreciated.

I don't have it yet, but am scheduled to get one soon.

I also have been communicating with a pretty well known manufacturer, and they are going to have a new sub design ready in March. I cannot tell you guys who it is, but the name rhymes with stew. :p

Ready as in they will show it or ready as in actual physically able to purchase come march?

The MFW-15 is 24 H, 22.5 D and 18.5 Wide.

I guess what I still can't fathom is how a $599 subwoofer can outperform a Velodyne DD-18 in both music and home theater, can pretty much equal the JL Audio Fathom 13, more or less approach the performance of an SVS PB13-Ultra and still look good.

And then for an additional $100 you get really nice finishes. The subwoofer apparently has bullet proof construction and weighs more than 110 pounds. I mean, what more can one possibly expect ?

I'm still shaking my head in amazement.

--Regards,

I mean, what more can one possibly expect ?


A $399 sub for the "low end" (X-plosive) and some Bad Mutha F!#@er beast for those with a little more space to fill (BMF-1).

It was not all that long ago that Hsu and SVS re-wrote the rules on the old dinosaurs like Velodyne. Now AV123, eD and Epik are changing the game again, and from the rumors Hsu is not going to take it sitting down. It looks like it is a great time to be a basshead!

EXACTLY! Competition leads to better performance at a lower price. If you'll just wait a minute, something new and exciting will be available. It is, INDEED, a good time for we hobbyists. And, all the folks at SVS, HSU, eD, Epic, av123, etc. deserve a lot of credit for their continuing efforts to bring affordable excellence to the marketplace.

I don't have it yet, but am scheduled to get one soon.

I also have been communicating with a pretty well known manufacturer, and they are going to have a new sub design ready in March. I cannot tell you guys who it is, but the name rhymes with stew. :p


When this new sub comes out will you be testing it Craig?

A $399 sub for the "low end" (X-plosive) and some Bad Mutha F!#@er beast for those with a little more space to fill (BMF-1).

An SVS PB-10 killer ?

--Regards,

You know what the most impressive part of the MFW15 is to me? It's the fact that they produced such an impressive performing sub that is competing with the other guys and they are doing it with nicer finishes. There have been several guys in this thread that have been going on and on about how they only care about performance and don't care about looks, now there is an option for the rest of us that want performance and looks at a price a lot of us can afford. Great job Mark and Mark!

Well said! Love the price/performance/good looks combo of the MFW15. I'm very much considering one, or two.

Craig, when are you going to test a7s-450 from ed ? I'm very in the dark about if it's great or just average, and thinking what if I should get an mwf-15 ( didnt count on it at all :/ ) or caliber or something, instead.

An SVS PB-10 killer ?

--Regards,

Well, the early reports on the prototype indicate that Seatons mini monster is aiming a bit higher than the PB-10. Lets hope Seaton hits his mark. I am waiting on Sandbaggers review anxiously to see if I need to pre-order one or two. :D

I just joined this thread and would like to purchase two of the MFW-15's what is the web address.

**********

I wonder how dual MFW-15 subwoofers will affect the scoreboard. Adding 6 dB's of clean output (if co-located) is simple enough, but how does this affect the rating system ?

--Regards,

As for the MFW-15, does anyone know what the wood-diamond means? Is the 599.00 price a wood veneer, or is it vinal? Below is a link off the website of upcoming products. The cabinet options for the MFW-15 are as listed below:

Estimated Price:

$599 - Satin Black
$699 - Wood (Satin)
$799 - Wood (Diamond)

I believe the satin black is painted. AV123 has no vinyl speakers.

Later, Daman