As for the MFW-15, does anyone know what the wood-diamond means? Is the 599.00 price a wood veneer, or is it vinal? Below is a link off the website of upcoming products. The cabinet options for the MFW-15 are as listed below:

Estimated Price:

$599 - Satin Black
$699 - Wood (Satin)
$799 - Wood (Diamond)

Diamond is their yet to start production finish topping that is similar to piano. Very high gloss finish. So you take your preferred wood finish and for another $100 you get high gloss similar to piano look.

I've got my eyes set on a pair of X-SLS in thier their Moho diamond ...

While at the RMAF this past year I had the chance to listen to, at great length, a PAIR of MFW-15's set up in the AV123 room. Certainly not ideal conditions for a demo, but everyone I talked to about the demo was incredibly underwhelmed with the quality of bass. Quantity was there but it was severely bloated and boomy. I guess with such a high ranking on this reviewers list, maybe it desreves another listen. I would have never guessed it would have finished so high:confused:

**********

And where exactly is the MFW-15 on this site? Maybe I missed it, but are these actually available to order now?

And where exactly is the MFW-15 on this site? Maybe I missed it, but are these actually available to order now?

It's not even officially released yet, but there are 2 options:

1) give them a call
2) They are putting up a new website tomorrow. You MAY be able to order it then (but be forewarned -- it will be at least March until you get one, as there are a gazillion pre-orders that will be filled w/ their incoming inventory the next month or so).

You know what the most impressive part of the MFW15 is to me? It's the fact that they produced such an impressive performing sub that is competing with the other guys and they are doing it with nicer finishes. There have been several guys in this thread that have been going on and on about how they only care about performance and don't care about looks, now there is an option for the rest of us that want performance and looks at a price a lot of us can afford. Great job Mark and Mark!

++1

Lot's of discussion comparing the MFW-15 to the PB/PC-Ultra 13's. Interesting stuff, for sure.

Does anyone know if the MFW-15 is engineered and assembled in the U.S. like SVS, or is it made in South America(or somewhere else?)

thanks.

**********


Thanks. :)

Lot's of discussion comparing the MFW-15 to the PB/PC-Ultra 13's. Interesting stuff, for sure.

Does anyone know if the MFW-15 is engineered and assembled in the U.S. like SVS, or is it made in South America(or somewhere else?)

thanks.

It was designed and engineered here in the US. The cabinets are made in Cali Columbia and it is partially assembled there then they are shipped to Colorado where av123 is located and the rest of the assembly takes place. Then they are tested and shipped to customers. From an earlier post that MLS posted either here or over at av123’s forum he said in part that they in the near future are going to have the Cali team do the entire build and they will not have to do any of it in Colorado.

ARone,

that's what I thought. thanks much for the info.

is the port on the MFW-15 considered "transmission line" ?

It's not even officially released yet, but there are 2 options:

1) give them a call
2) They are putting up a new website tomorrow. You MAY be able to order it then (but be forewarned -- it will be at least March until you get one, as there are a gazillion pre-orders that will be filled w/ their incoming inventory the next month or so).

Thanks for the info. I am not interested in ordering one for myself (because I already have two ridiculously large and effective DIY subs), but if I tell anyone else about the MFW-15, I don't want them to go the web site and be confused. Seems like this sub has been in development for quite some time, so it'll be nice when it has officially "arrived" and there's less mystery or confusion surrounding the pricing and availability.

Guys ... Please, unless a post has to do with the performance of the MFW-15, take it to the AV123 forum.

Posts about the factory in Cali, and about how MLS runs it ... any and all of that type of post ... do not belong here.

Thank you. :)

Guys ... Please, unless a post has to do with the performance of the MFW-15, take it to the AV123 forum.

Posts about the factory in Cali, and about how MLS runs it ... any and all of that type of post ... do not belong here.

Thank you. :)

Spot on correct...

I deleted my post...

Best...

mls

Craig,

If you ever want to test a SubMersive before Seaton gets you one, send me a PM over at av123 and I am sure I could manage the drive.

I'm pretty sure I would be available to load, ride along and unload for the opportunity to hear the MFW-15s and Submersive!! What day can we do this????:D

Thanks for the info. I am not interested in ordering one for myself (because I already have two ridiculously large and effective DIY subs), but if I tell anyone else about the MFW-15, I don't want them to go the web site and be confused. Seems like this sub has been in development for quite some time, so it'll be nice when it has officially "arrived" and there's less mystery or confusion surrounding the pricing and availability.


Believe me -- I know. I've seen your monoliths, and am envious. :D

When my Conquest arrives next week and my wife complains, I plan on using your pics as an 'at-least-it-isn't-THIS' reference (thanks in advance :) ).

But some of us have multiple audio rooms -- wasn't sure you weren't getting a pantry or closet sub or something...:D

Craig,

If you ever want to test a SubMersive before Seaton gets you one, send me a PM over at av123 and I am sure I could manage the drive.

It takes a lot to do one of these tests ... about 10 days from start to finish. That seems like a poor use of vacation time ... :D

While at the RMAF this past year I had the chance to listen to, at great length, a PAIR of MFW-15's set up in the AV123 room. Certainly not ideal conditions for a demo, but everyone I talked to about the demo was incredibly underwhelmed with the quality of bass. Quantity was there but it was severely bloated and boomy. I guess with such a high ranking on this reviewers list, maybe it desreves another listen. I would have never guessed it would have finished so high:confused:

Hi kgb,

You may have demo's confused. We only displayed a single MFW-15 at RMAF where we had the black x-statiks and x-voce samples as LCR with some Outlaw separates. The first day we had some variability in the demos with material and setup, but many were highly impressed in what the $2200 5.1ch speaker-sub combo delivered through the rest of the weekend.

is the port on the MFW-15 considered "transmission line" ?

The MFW-15 employs a slot port. You can see the 2" radius flaring on the upper and lower lip of the ~1.5" tall slot at the bottom of the front panel. A transmission line is usually classified differently in operation and design. A little google searching will find you plenty of examples, but let's keep this thread on topic.

Hey Craig,

I'm still at Itai's home (aka cubesys) from yesterday's meet. Of course I'm very happy to hear you and your review panel enjoyed the MFW-15 so much. What I haven't seen an update to is what your lovely wife's rankings are. As I recall the scoring was quite comedic. :)

Cheers,

I believe that is the one in which the A7-900 was selected as "Over my dead body", in regards to the WAF rating, and which subs were allowed in the house ? :D

That would be the one Craig. ;)

So what will the recent changes in subwoofers "cost you" in non-monetary terms? :D

Hello Mark,

It's been awhile. I am interested in the MFW-15. Do you ship to South Africa ? ;)

--Regards,

I went ahead and placed my order for 2 MFW-15's this morning (over 130 orders ahead of me, yikes) but I am really wondering how the 2 compare to a single Epik Tower. I am really looking forward to your "dual" review Craig :)

While at the RMAF this past year I had the chance to listen to, at great length, a PAIR of MFW-15's set up in the AV123 room. Certainly not ideal conditions for a demo, but everyone I talked to about the demo was incredibly underwhelmed with the quality of bass. Quantity was there but it was severely bloated and boomy. I guess with such a high ranking on this reviewers list, maybe it desreves another listen. I would have never guessed it would have finished so high:confused:

Interesting.

Does anyone know if any of these have gone out for review from some of the usual online pubs, like Secrets, any of the SoundStage folks, etc?

Craig and Mark S. I am on the preorder list for the BMF-1 and I am wondering if I should switch to 2 MFW-15? My room is a very large great room that is 24' by 28' with an attached 10' by 10' foryer and open to a kitchen that is 12' by 15' so it is a very larger area for a sub to fill. This system is used 98% for HT I have a seperate 2 CH system for music. Mark is this too larger of an area for the 2 MFW-15 to handle and would I be better off waiting for the BMF-1? Thanks in advance for your help.

Too bad many of these newer subs coming out now isn't offering better/more variable, crossover designs. I mean look at the MWF-15 you'all are eyeing right now, 40hz is the lowest crossover point...not good for those of us using full range fronts...not to mention the lack of user selectable crossover slopes. I just wish we could see just as much value/interest put into the plate amp options than what were seeing here in these internet direct sales sub companies. (REL is a good example of some innovative designs!)

Not just eyeing, just ordered! What purpose is a crossover lower than 40? Set it on max and use the receiver, or build your own, or buy one and change the amp. At $599 for this quality and performance you could replace the amp and still be better off. By the way, if you order MOHO as I did, it's "in stock" and ships tomorrow....

Too bad many of these newer subs coming out now isn't offering better/more variable, crossover designs. I mean look at the MWF-15 you'all are eyeing right now, 40hz is the lowest crossover point...not good for those of us using full range fronts...not to mention the lack of user selectable crossover slopes. I just wish we could see just as much value/interest put into the plate amp options than what were seeing here in these internet direct sales sub companies. (REL is a good example of some innovative designs!)

Craig and Mark S. I am on the preorder list for the BMF-1 and I am wondering if I should switch to 2 MFW-15? My room is a very large great room that is 24' by 28' with an attached 10' by 10' foryer and open to a kitchen that is 12' by 15' so it is a very larger area for a sub to fill. This system is used 98% for HT I have a seperate 2 CH system for music. Mark is this too larger of an area for the 2 MFW-15 to handle and would I be better off waiting for the BMF-1? Thanks in advance for your help.

Answered on AV123's forum. Thanks.

Okay, so let me make sure I have this correct. A single av123 MFW-15 at $599 get's the exact same marks as a JL Audio Fathom at $3500?!?!?! This should win subwoofer of the year, although the year is quite young. :)
So I wonder how good dual stacked MFW-15's would sound? I have two on order right now. Have had for a long time now. Was getting ready to pull the trigger on an Epik Castle this week, might wait for my MFW-15's.

craig,
should the price for the mfw-15 be clarified on the rankings page? I know normally you include the shipping price or estimated shipping price on the rankings page in addition to the sub price and come up with a total estimated price for Internet Direct dealers. I just called av123 and they told me the sub was $599, not including any shipping charges, which I assume would be close to $100. Am I misunderstanding something?

Will two MFW-15 in separate locations/corner in the room give different rating then them stacked up? Which one is better/preferable? Is one rating derivable from the other?

craigsub, will it be possible to have the ratings for twins stacked & separate?

Have two on pre-order and wondering which may be a better option!

Thanks!

Okay, so let me make sure I have this correct. A single av123 MFW-15 at $599 get's the exact same marks as a JL Audio Fathom at $3500?!?!?! This should win subwoofer of the year, although the year is quite young. :)
So I wonder how good dual stacked MFW-15's would sound? I have two on order right now. Have had for a long time now. Was getting ready to pull the trigger on an Epik Castle this week, might wait for my MFW-15's.

I think it's amazing that an inexpensive sub like the MFW can compare favorably to a sub such as the Fathom. Congrats to Seaton and AV123 for that. That said, it does not mean that the two will necessarily sound the same. One or the other may be better depending on the conditions of the surroundings.

AV123's website has now been updated:
http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=subwoofers&product=15.1

craig,

i can't be helped! this forum is so addicting!:p first bought two hsu 3.3 six months ago... sold one hsu a month ago. bought an epik castle to replace the hsu... just sold the second hsu yesterday and put in an order for the mfw15 today!:D you think i am done?

shipping for the mfw is $104, which is about right. it's an oversized box and over 100 lbs.

by the way, love the castle. much better articulation, slam and output vs the hsu. i am hoping to get a little better extension with the mfw15. what do you think? what is your impression between the hsu and mfw15?

craig,
should the price for the mfw-15 be clarified on the rankings page? I know normally you include the shipping price or estimated shipping price on the rankings page in addition to the sub price and come up with a total estimated price for Internet Direct dealers. I just called av123 and they told me the sub was $599, not including any shipping charges, which I assume would be close to $100. Am I misunderstanding something?

I called and was quoted $105 shipping which I considered fair for the weight of this thing. I'm sure Craig will make the change to the listing at some point. This is all still so new. I was tempted to go with another finish just to get one now but I will wait for black.

craig,
should the price for the mfw-15 be clarified on the rankings page? I know normally you include the shipping price or estimated shipping price on the rankings page in addition to the sub price and come up with a total estimated price for Internet Direct dealers. I just called av123 and they told me the sub was $599, not including any shipping charges, which I assume would be close to $100. Am I misunderstanding something?

ID/SI specifies just what is meant. Shipping on the MFW is $105.

Later, Daman

craig,

i can't be helped! this forum is so addicting!:p first bought two hsu 3.3 six months ago... sold one hsu a month ago. bought an epik castle to replace the hsu... just sold the second hsu yesterday and put in an order for the mfw15 today!:D you think i am done?

shipping for the mfw is $104, which is about right. it's an oversized box and over 100 lbs.

by the way, love the castle. much better articulation, slam and output vs the hsu. i am hoping to get a little better extension with the mfw15. what do you think? what is your impression between the hsu and mfw15?

Well count (2) MFW-15's for me. I have (2) pb13 ultras that are due here on friday, man I can't wait! The ultra's will be the front stage subs. I went satin black on the dual MFW-15's. I could not get the internet check-out site to do the (2) at 999.00 it kept giving me the 599x2=1198.00 so I phone ordered them. Because they are satin black (I wished they had maple the moho won't fly but I like it) they are due in mid march. Shipping was 105.00 each, Someone said 104.00 you saved a buck over my quote, 2 bucks total - that pisses me off-LOL so the dual discount pretty much pays shipping as I see it. Soon there will be FOUR! :p:D

Okay, I know this is going to be a dumb question but which version of "Pulse" are we referring to regarding LFE effects? I found a few versions on Netflix and assumed it would be the 2006 release? Looks like it's available on DVD and HD-DVD. I know it's probably a crappy movie as most people here have noted but just wanted to make sure I get the correct version of this crappy movie.

the new version. Yes it is on Hd-dvd as well.

the new version. Yes it is on Hd-dvd as well.

Thanks! I have it queued up in Netflix. Now if I just had the MFW-15. :D

Craig,

Is there a possibility of getting some pictures of the MFW-15's?

Craig,

Is there a possibility of getting some pictures of the MFW-15's?

There are some pictures over on the ********** customer forum.

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=27472

Craig, you said on the first page of this thread: Also ... Later the Hsu VTF-3 HO and the MBM-12 will be tested as a $1500 subwoofer, which will be the price for both, including the Turbo. And Pete HSU says that: A single MBM will provide >120db at the listening position when placed close to the listening position.

How soon do you plan on doing this test?

Bill

Just a quick note... two MFW-15's left for the photographer today so some snazzy pics will be up on the AV123 site in about a week (or so).

Sean

Craig,

Is there a possibility of getting some pictures of the MFW-15's?

Just a quick note... two MFW-15's left for the photographer today so some snazzy pics will be up on the AV123 site in about a week (or so).

Sean


Very sweet.

It's really interesting, the AV123 site shows availability of the Cherry and Moho Satan estimated 1/28 and all the other finishes in March.

Guys, we will be running the final test this week on the MFW-15 as duals, then it is time to shut this down.

I discussed with my dealership partner the purchase of a new store, which we are moving forward on, and am also contracting with some new concepts for my financial services company, and will be in conference near Boston next week.

This has been fun, but all things must end.

"Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so..."

In all seriousness, thanks for all of your hard work and time spent evaluating subwoofers. You have to know that we all appreciate your efforts.

Guys, we will be running the final test this week on the MFW-15 as duals, then it is time to shut this down.

I discussed with my dealership partner the purchase of a new store, which we are moving forward on, and am also contracting with some new concepts for my financial services company, and will be in conference near Boston next week.

This has been fun, but all things must end.


aaannnddd there it is :(

I knew it was coming.

Many thanks for all the things you've done Craig. I think I speak for the VAST majority that we are all the better for having the chance to read of your tests and impressions.

Guys, we will be running the final test this week on the MFW-15 as duals, then it is time to shut this down.

I discussed with my dealership partner the purchase of a new store, which we are moving forward on, and am also contracting with some new concepts for my financial services company, and will be in conference near Boston next week.

This has been fun, but all things must end.

Thank you very everything you have done Craig, your information and tests have been helpful to many on these boards. Good luck with your business. :cool:

Guys, we will be running the final test this week on the MFW-15 as duals, then it is time to shut this down.

I discussed with my dealership partner the purchase of a new store, which we are moving forward on, and am also contracting with some new concepts for my financial services company, and will be in conference near Boston next week.

This has been fun, but all things must end.

I appreciate all of the time and work you've put into comparing subs. This thread has been something I've eagerly anticipated viewing every day to see your impressions on the latest subs. Hope you at least have the time to stick around on AVS and chime in here and there :). You'll definitely be missed.

BTW, not that it's of the utmost importance, but if you had any kind of score or comparison for the little budget subs you tested in the last couple weeks it would be cool to see your thoughts. Farewell Craig.

Stephen

Guys, we will be running the final test this week on the MFW-15 as duals, then it is time to shut this down.

I discussed with my dealership partner the purchase of a new store, which we are moving forward on, and am also contracting with some new concepts for my financial services company, and will be in conference near Boston next week.

This has been fun, but all things must end.


So your done for good or for the time being?

Thanks for all the input, I hope somehow you are able to continue this..it's been real fun and helpful to us all....hopefully you can post back again when the new HSU sub appears and give us your thoughts..hopefully you won't be able to resist the urge.

I am actually pretty enthused about the 2 new business opportunities.

The dealership is also going to be the new home for my office, and we have a terrific manager coming in from South Carolina to be a partner in this endeavor.

The little subs are just that ... little. I do like the Velo and the Dayton ... they are pretty good little subs.

I won't be posting any scores, as we are doing the dual MFW-15's, then finishing up.

So your done for good or for the time being?

Thanks for all the input, I hope somehow you are able to continue this..it's been real fun and helpful to us all....hopefully you can post back again when the new HSU sub appears and give us your thoughts..hopefully you won't be able to resist the urge.

The new Hsu subs will likely be excellent ... but with all the other biz stuff going on, it is time to do things that actually have some income potential. :eek:

I am also hoping to get a few audio products of my own in line, including a small integrated and a few other "subwoofer helper" products some engineers are working on.

It isn't that I am leaving the boards ... this whole thread was not started by me, and during a year that first saw a serious health issue personally, then my sister's passing, it was a pleasant diversion, and a lot of fun (most of the time).

My wife is certainly happy about the new biz, and the stopping of her house being invaded by boxes. :D

Best wishes on your new venture Craig...this has been very enlightening and entertaining...I'm sure you've had some fun, but I know it's been a ton of work too. This possibly could have been the all time longest and meatiest thread on this topic. If you don't resurrect it down the road, I'll miss it dearly...sincerely :)

The new Hsu subs will likely be excellent ... but with all the other biz stuff going on, it is time to do things that actually have some income potential. :eek:

I am also hoping to get a few audio products of my own in line, including a small integrated and a few other "subwoofer helper" products some engineers are working on.

It isn't that I am leaving the boards ... this whole thread was not started by me, and during a year that first saw a serious health issue personally, then my sister's passing, it was a pleasant diversion, and a lot of fun (most of the time).

My wife is certainly happy about the new biz, and the stopping of her house being invaded by boxes. :D


Good to see this has been a mostly positive experience for you, b/c it has been an immensely positive one for most of us. We wish you the best of health and luck in the future, and I hope to be able to thank you in person someday for the great things you've done for my music and HT experiences (also, I gotta meet the most understanding wife on Earth ;) ).

Now get that darn integrated going!! I need like 6 of them! :D

The new Hsu subs will likely be excellent ... but with all the other biz stuff going on, it is time to do things that actually have some income potential. :eek:

I am also hoping to get a few audio products of my own in line, including a small integrated and a few other "subwoofer helper" products some engineers are working on.

It isn't that I am leaving the boards ... this whole thread was not started by me, and during a year that first saw a serious health issue personally, then my sister's passing, it was a pleasant diversion, and a lot of fun (most of the time).

My wife is certainly happy about the new biz, and the stopping of her house being invaded by boxes. :D


Hey Craig,

I know you're in business with MLS and AV123 for the small integrated amp. Are you working with them as well for the "subwoofer helper" products?

Just curious...

Craig--I think I'm like a great many people who frequent this great informative forum almost daily but really don't post that much as a rule. Your tests, opinions, and shared knowledge on subwoofers have not only been a very valuable resource to me but also a source of entertainment as well. Thanks for everything you have done for the subwoofer forum here and all the information you have taken a great deal of trouble to provide. Best of luck to you in your new adventures.

This has been a fun thread and it's a bummer that you will no longer be doing this to the extent you have been. Best of luck to you in the new ventures and it's been a pleasure to read your thoughts on subs and the like. Looking forward to your last review.

It has been a pleasure Craig, thank you for all your hard work and generosity. This thread will be referenced for years to come.
Bradley

Hey Craig,

I know you're in business with MLS and AV123 for the small integrated amp. Are you working with them as well for the "subwoofer helper" products?

Just curious...

This integrated amp has nothing to do with AV123. Mark has introduced me to the designers, but the products will be sold from a totally different website.

Right now, the company consists of an LLC, and a website, with no actual product, yet. I own 100% of the stock in the LLC.

I will be testing what is currently called the X-19 amp in the near future. If it sucks, then it won't be part of the company. If it is as good as advertised, then it will.

This audio company is not the major business development I mentioned earlier, but it hopefully will happen. I say hopefully, because, as I said earlier, I don't yet have any product.

It takes a lot to do one of these tests ... about 10 days from start to finish. That seems like a poor use of vacation time ... :D

Guys, we will be running the final test this week on the MFW-15 as duals, then it is time to shut this down.


Oh nooooooo! I can definitely see why you would not want to do all of this testing and run a few businesses at the same time, but your opinions will be missed.

Craig,

Thank you for all the testing and time spent to do the tests. Good luck in your business,may all fall acording to plan. :)



Arthur

Craig,

Thank you for all the testing and time spent to do the tests. Good luck in your business,may all fall acording to plan. :)



Arthur

Thanks ... Did you notice you had put on the Santa Suit, and are now the new tester ? :D

For all of those long hours of tireless listening sessions, data gathering, write ups into this forum, personal feedbacks and the investments you incurred, Craig!

I hope the overall journey was as rewarding for you as it has been to the music lovers you've so unselfishly helped!

Godspeed health, happiness and success in your future endeavors! ;)

Ted

Best wishes for your new/existing endeavours!
Great contribution, greatest thread ever! You'll be missed...

Such a bittersweet announcement Craig, but thanks for all your hard work on the sub and speaker reviews. I'm sure you will have plenty of fun with your new projects as well :)

This integrated amp has nothing to do with AV123. Mark has introduced me to the designers, but the products will be sold from a totally different website.

Right now, the company consists of an LLC, and a website, with no actual product, yet. I own 100% of the stock in the LLC.

I will be testing what is currently called the X-19 amp in the near future. If it sucks, then it won't be part of the company. If it is as good as advertised, then it will.

This audio company is not the major business development I mentioned earlier, but it hopefully will happen. I say hopefully, because, as I said earlier, I don't yet have any product.

Cool, I gotcha. Good luck.

Cool, I gotcha. Good luck.

Thanks ... who knows, you might even recognize one of the beta testers.

:eek: Please PM me ASAP Craig...

And so the best, most informative, objective, honest, valuable, and a whole bunch of other superlatives that I can't think of right now thread is coming to an end.

Does everybody grasp what Craigsub has done for us? We've been getting what no one, but NO ONE has ever accomplished, and it's been done FOR FREE!

Nothing compares. Nothing! I subscribe to Stereophile, Home Theater, and Sound & Vision. I check all over the internet. Nothing is as informative as the Craigsubs rankings! And I seriously doubt there ever will be.

How will all the new subs coming down the pipeline compare? We'll never know. All that will be posted will be endless arguments with no factual data, no honest Craigsub ranking. Just speculation.

Thanks, Craigsub for the greatest thread ever.

I hope, as you said, you've had fun with this endeavor. Perhaps when things calm down with your business ventures (in a year or so), you can pick a new hobby to have fun with (not even A/V related).

Change is good.

No sorry,I have read some good things from general users online.But no local dealers carry this sub. <referring to the Sony sa-wx900>

If I had the opportunity I would buy one to test,and for fun.I buy what is close to home and also know a good number of people who pass me subs or gear for testing at home.But nobody I know has this unit.

I found the Sony sa-wx900 sub for $565 +$70 shipping, it looks like it has excellent bang for the buck, according to some reviews (http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/subwoofers/sony/PRD_327896_2741crx.aspx) - any thoughts? I had originally considered the BIC H-100 as I am on a budget, but I am willing to spend 2.5 times as much for 3-10x the performance - I want best bang for the buck, mostly HT use. Any advice / opinions? :)

I am also considering the AV123 MFW-15 - thanks to this thread!

How about helping the n00b (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12891215#post12891215) instead of arguing? :)

You're burying my question :(

And biggest players?

Would you not agree that any conversation about "real" subwoofers in today's market that doesn't mention eD, Epik, and AV123 is at the very least "incomplete". Those other tests are great, but since they lack the top contenders at pretty much every price point I think many will find them inadequate when trying to make a purchasing decision.

How about helping the n00b (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12891215#post12891215) instead of arguing? :)

You're burying my question :(

I have never auditioned the Sony, so I can't say much about it. :)

Would you not agree that any conversation about "real" subwoofers in today's market that doesn't mention eD, Epik, and AV123 is at the very least "incomplete". Those other tests are great, but since they lack the top contenders at pretty much every price point I think many will find them inadequate when trying to make a purchasing decision.

If Richard happens to live outside of the United States (or North America), then his perspective and opinion about the importance/significance of those manufacturers may be a bit different than the rest of us.

Would you not agree that any conversation about "real" subwoofers in today's market that doesn't mention eD, Epik, and AV123 is at the very least "incomplete". Those other tests are great, but since they lack the top contenders at pretty much every price point I think many will find them inadequate when trying to make a purchasing decision.

If Richard happens to live outside of the United States (or North America), then his perspective and opinion about the importance/significance of those manufacturers may be a bit different than the rest of us.
I meant that IMO the old players such as HSU, SVS, Velodyne etc. should be considered as the biggest players instead of the new kids on the block. I mean AV123 hasn't even had a proper subwoofer before the MFW-15... Also no one hadn't even heard of Epik ~6 months ago.

I have never auditioned the Sony, so I can't say much about it. :)

Understandable, obviously. :)
Thanks for the response.

It's for sale here (http://www.homepriceclub.com/item.aspx?eid=1&pid=80526) - I read that you couldn't get one locally so it wasn't included in the evals. I was just hoping to find an inexpensive sleeper to impress my kids. I may be willing to buy it from/for you so you may evaluate it for the benefit of the community, if that is of interest... but I don't know how you get that works.

I'm on a tight budget (I was in the BIC H-100 budget range, lol), but after doing more and more research, I really want to buy the best bang for the buck sub for my HT room (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12891475#post12891475), and if it means tripling the budget for ten times the performance, I'm game.

I meant that IMO the old players such as HSU, SVS, Velodyne etc. should be considered as the biggest players instead of the new kids on the block. I mean AV123 hasn't even had a proper subwoofer before the MFW-15... Also no one hadn't even heard of Epik ~6 months ago.

To each his own. For me the biggest players are the ones with the best performing products at their respective price range. I suppose if actual performance isn't the metric you're judging by then those other tests are all you need...

Craig,

Let me add to those that will miss your comments. Like most, I realize what your ratings are and people may (will?) disagree. I also recognize your measurements, while more objective, also may vary from others.

I harken back to the days when I could hear and see the best equipment in person. Those days are gone. The Internet is a wonderful place, but it also presents challenges to consumers. Most the equipment, actually almost all, in my home theater I purchased without the benefit hearing or seeing it. Making decisions to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars like that is tough. Forums like this one are a blessing and a curse.

Your reviews are not the be all and end all. However, as someone else already said, they are a piece (maybe a couple of pieces) of the puzzle. Yes Richard, Ilkka's reviews are also valuable ;). Thanks again for your efforts and good luck in whatever paths you choose.

To each his own. For me the biggest players are the ones with the best performing products at their respective price range. I suppose if actual performance isn't the metric you're judging by then those other tests are all you need...
I understand you. I just meant that something like the new SVS Ultra might be selling as much as those three combined, therefore 'biggest player' might be more appropriate for it. But it seems that these new brands are definitely giving these older brands a run for their money. So hopefully Ilkka would test them as well.

Craig, I'm sorry to see this thread end. It has been enjoyable, thanks.

Sadly I read the last three pages not logged in, so my global ignore didn't prevent the thread jacking... Lesson learnt. :)

Craig I read your statement about not officially reviewing the cheaper subs you had on order. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I was looking forward to your thoughts on them. Having already purchased an excellent home theatre sub, I am looking at purchasing an inexpensive sub for music only system I have in my living room. It is a floor standing stereo, but lacks a little on the bottom end. Since you aren't doing a review of the smaller subs any longer, if you could give a very short first impression of their performance I know I'd be greatly appreciative. I'm currently leaning towards a Dayton 80, which wasn't one you reviewed (or were planning to). If not, "so long and thanks for all the fish." re: D.A. ;)

Oh no, so then a7 and a7s and the Knight are never getting tested? I was quite curious..Oh well can only hope someone else will compare them to one of the other top places by chance.
To me this thread was of more value than all of the rest of this subwoofer forum put together.

Thanks craigsub and friends. Your comparisons and posts are going to be missed. I just have a couple extra questions though... :)

Listening results: The MFW-15 amazed the panel by largely matching the PB13 Ultra in all musical areas with the exception of pipe organ. Bass is deep, tight and powerful, with no overhang at all. The cabinet work done on this subwoofer is absolultely stellar, especially in its price range. By stellar, we mean just how inert it is. The cabinet barely vibrates during the most powerful passages, and this helps the MFW-15 to get its excellent musical rating. It is, as an earlier graph shows, very linear in its response curve, all the way to 100 Hz. It is in the area of slam an linearity that allows this subwoofer to match more high priced units. The Steely Dan disc on this subwoofer is a bass head's dream, with a lot of the panel requesting to hear it again after the test. Stanley Clarke was also as crystal clear on the MFW-15 as with any subwoofer we have had.
So what exactly is the pipe organ test?

And how much vibration is there with the subs with the higher musicality ratings? I've ordered the PB13-Ultra. Musicality was the #1 concern for me, not bass volume.

Guys, we will be running the final test this week on the MFW-15 as duals, then it is time to shut this down.

I discussed with my dealership partner the purchase of a new store, which we are moving forward on, and am also contracting with some new concepts for my financial services company, and will be in conference near Boston next week.

This has been fun, but all things must end.

http://www.sternfannetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/Happy/sadbye.gif

Thanks for everything Craigsub.

This was the thread I would look forward to every hour of every day. Good luck with your new ventures. If (and hopefully when :) you get bored in the future you can test some more subs for us.

CRAIGSUB for president:D

I discussed with my dealership partner the purchase of a new store, which we are moving forward on.



Do I hear opportunity? :eek: :D ;)

Just remember who loves you man. :D

Thanks for the great work Craig!

While the thread is ending, I am sure your interest in subs will continue and periodically you will chime in with your impressions about different subs even if it is not in the form of the current extensive listening tests.

Best of luck with your new endeavors.

Do I hear opportunity? :eek: :D ;)

Just remember who loves you man. :D

Drop me a line - you probably already know who will be coming back to the area to run the store, but we will need a first rate finance director. We can discuss this via PM. And yes, I am serious.

To everyone else ... thanks for the kind words. As I mentioned, I am not leaving the boards ... just not going to be doing subwoofer reviews. :)

It figures that I always come in on the tail end of anything good. Well, at least the wealth of information will remain here and hopefully Craig will do the occasional review at a more leisurely pace when and if he gets the time. Thanks much for the hard work Craig and best of luck in your future endeavors!

Thanks for all your time and effort Craig. Very informative and made for great reading.

Tom

Good luck Craig, most of us on this thread purchased our subs based on your reviews, at least I know I did ;)

Please keep us up to date about your new venture.

Craig,

Thanks for all the work and sharing the results with all of us. Will miss the info you gave provided, which I also used to make my decision about a year ago (JL).

Good luck with the new dealership! (******?)

Thanks Craig for all you hard work (/play)! I don't know how anyone could order an on-line sub without an educational thread like this. You DID IT, you got me to make up my mind! So many choices, so many prices... my decision (thanks to you and all the helpful folks that hang around here) is the MFW-15 (after flipping between HSU to SVS to Epik to IB to Epik to IB.....), my mind and cash are spent. Best wishes on your future endeavors!

How the slot port area in the MFW-15 compares to 2- 4" ports of the A5-350?

I would like to say thanks Craig for all the hard work, time, and effort you put into all of this. Though I rarely post anything I have been coming to AVS for over a year now, and made it a point to check this thread every time. You have provided great insight into sub's that many of us will never get a chance to listen to, let alone in the same environment for comparison purposes. I really do appreciate it and when the time comes to purchase a new sub I will reference this thread. Best of luck!

Thanks Craig for all the great work you've done on the board!

You've helped me along with so many countless others that don't normally reply on these boards but read them none the less.

Good Luck with everything!!!

yes, Thx again Craig for all your selfless hard work and excellent info. You've helped more people here than you will know, including me.

Yup, thanks man. I bought my Castle due to your review.

Thanks Craig for all of your hard and, I am sure fun, work. I found your information both informative and helpful. Best of luck on your future endeavors.

Craig,
Good luck on your new adventure.
email me if you would like to sell any of your subs.

Craig, thanks for all the work you've done in the past. You certainly have opened my eyes to the neverending list of quality subs outside of the commonly ones seen and sold. On the other hand, my wife and wallet are happy to see it end so I can finally pin down a sub instead of waiting to see whether the next sub to be announced and tested is the next "best bass for the bang winner". :D

Oh no, so then a7 and a7s and the Knight are never getting tested? I was quite curious..Oh well can only hope someone else will compare them to one of the other top places by chance.
To me this thread was of more value than all of the rest of this subwoofer forum put together.
CADOBHuK, you can add the Epik Caliber to the list of popular subs that many wanted to see results for but won't be tested as well. It would be hard to compare against Craig's list of sub rankings by anyone else, whole new set of variables.

Thanks for all the great information and comparisons that you have provided. It helped me choose my Hsu 3,2 about a year ago. And is helping me decide what direction to go with my next purchase. Amazing how much the sub market has changed the past year.

Sorry to see you go craigsub. :( This thread has been a "driving force" for peoples decisions on subs.

Sorry to see you go Craig. Thanks for everything. Best of luck with your new business.

wow... this is the end? man... didn't think it would be now...:( thanks a bunch! i was thinking yesterday too that i am getting closer to buying the last of my sub! thanks again craig!

Thanks Craig and best of luck in these uncertain economic times.

This thread was a great introduction and primer to the wacky world of subwoofers.

Craig, Thanks for all your efforts on helping shed light on the wild world of subwoofers..... and patiently answering my PM's :)

This has been my favorite thread and I will miss your reviews immensely. Good luck.

Certain people have asked about the panel which has been my source for the listening tests. These guys are professional in the business, and have built some amazing systems.

Here are a few pics of their work ...

A Kenny Rogers concert in Arizona:

http://www.a-lineacoustics.com/images/KRALAfront300M.jpg

She-Daisy concert, also in Arizona:

http://www.a-lineacoustics.com/images/ALACoolView_400.jpg

Here is the design team in front of one of their systems set up at the Las Vegas Convention Center.

http://www.a-lineacoustics.com/images/LDI06RBWTP.jpg

Thanks for all that you have done on this thread. I wish you luck on your new adventures eventhough it is not necessary. You seem to have what it takes to succeed within.

Craig:
Being Mark Schifter's partner here in Colombia where the MFW-15 is being manufactured, please receive our gratitude for your comments. I've been "behind the curtains" all these days because I don't think is ethical to get involved when you have a clear business interest in the product (s) being evaluated.
But now, when the thread is coming to an end I guess I can be "forgiven" :)
We will be trying to improve our quality to be able to deliver hopefully better and better products your way.
Thanks again,
Santiago

g'luck and thanks for all the hard work!

Craig,

Yes. A big PLUS ONE . . . and I never do PLUS ONE posts.

Your tests have been invaluable and will be missed -- please post often in the future.

As a reference / favor to me and doubtless to many others;

-- would you list [ or link to ] the specific music and movie
segments you have used in your tests.

-- would you post [ or link to ] pictures and/or floor plans of your testing spaces and specifically address how you arrived at the placement for the subs.

I of course acknowledge that every room is different and that placement is a black art and not an absolute or a science . . . .

. . . . in this arena of VERY BIG AND HEAVY subs any info
you can give that narrows and defines the placement
options would be very helpful . . . . and to my aching back in particular.

Pictures and floor plans of your spaces could helps us compare
to our own spaces and narrow the search for the ideal spot.

Thanks, again

-30-

Thank you, Craig, for investing your time, effort and energy into this endeavor. Your contributions have changed the way I am shopping for a sub and will improve my family's music and HT experience. I really, really appreciate it! :)

Thank those ugly guys in that picture too. :D

craig,

thanks for this thread...and all your hard work


it was the first thing i read in the morning and the last thing i read at night


by the way, that fellow in the far left of your picture looks like he could be your brother...

Time to add my thanks as well...

...alright, with that out of the way, I'm going to let the secret out!







...there IS no Craigsub!!!




That's right...this was a carefully constructed internet character artfully designed by, yes, that's right...the new subwoofer triumvirate of Ben&co/Chad/Mark in order to totally disrupt all of the previous subwoofer beliefs held out in HT land!


Just picture a modern day Max Headroom...but we will call him Craig Bassroom....no...I've got it...Craigsub!



Alright, the moment of insanity has passed...I feel better...but that will only last until I ruin myself moving my A7-900 around when it gets here in a couple more weeks ;). Carry on, and best wishes w/ the new business. Gutsy time to be moving into the "leisure" market given the direction of the economy. Oh well, let's spend it all before the next administration taxes it all!

Drop me a line - you probably already know who will be coming back to the area to run the store, but we will need a first rate finance director. We can discuss this via PM. And yes, I am serious.

To everyone else ... thanks for the kind words. As I mentioned, I am not leaving the boards ... just not going to be doing subwoofer reviews. :)

Craig good luck to you,

I have one final sub question for you. Please forgive me if you have discussed before. How come no love on REL subs? Specifically the B series?

Anyone else feel free to chime in here.

so no dayton test?

craig,

thanks for this thread...and all your hard work


it was the first thing i read in the morning and the last thing i read at night


by the way, that fellow in the far left of your picture looks like he could be your brother...

He is my brother ... the same brother that 2 people suggested in the past did not exist...

MTBDOC ... That was a funny post. :D

What a loss to this piece of the forum, without Craig - I wouldn't be the proud and happy owner of a new Epik Valor. Really, these reviews have been immensely helpful to tens if not hundreds of AVS forum users.

Thanks for your contribution to this part of the A/V hobby spectrum. :)

...Nodding to Craig.

GREAT contribution to the knowledgebase. Thank you.


Tim

How the hell am I supposed to make up my mind about a sub now? I couldn't before with the barrage of Craigsub info, so how do I do it now?! Looks like I'll be using my bookshelf Klipschs solo for a while longer :P

I missed something, why is Craigsub leaving? Is it a conflict of interest as he gets into selling them?

Craig,

Thanks for doing this as long as you did.

You've added a lot to the understanding of how various subwoofers compare to one another.

Best of luck with your life and business interest.

How the hell am I supposed to make up my mind about a sub now? I couldn't before with the barrage of Craigsub info, so how do I do it now?! Looks like I'll be using my bookshelf Klipschs solo for a while longer :P

I missed something, why is Craigsub leaving? Is it a conflict of interest as he gets into selling them?

i think he felt it was just time, everything considered...

but i believe a few posts in the "fathom vs trinity" thread might have pushed him over the edge...

Well count (2) MFW-15's for me. I have (2) pb13 ultras that are due here on friday, man I can't wait! The ultra's will be the front stage subs. I went satin black on the dual MFW-15's. I could not get the internet check-out site to do the (2) at 999.00 it kept giving me the 599x2=1198.00 so I phone ordered them. Because they are satin black (I wished they had maple the moho won't fly but I like it) they are due in mid march. Shipping was 105.00 each, Someone said 104.00 you saved a buck over my quote, 2 bucks total - that pisses me off-LOL so the dual discount pretty much pays shipping as I see it. Soon there will be FOUR! :p:D

So, is this correct?

You can get 2 MFW-15s for $999 + shipping??? They will arrive somewhere in March?

Please tell me it wasn't a one-day-only deal!!!

So, is this correct?

You can get 2 MFW-15s for $999 + shipping??? They will arrive somewhere in March?

Please tell me it wasn't a one-day-only deal!!!

I don't think it's a one day deal at all. 999.00 for duals, in satin black. 105.00 shipping each - 1209.00 to the front door, no tax - assuming you don't live in the state of Co. :p

I think this post should be made a sticky (all by itself):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136

wow! it's over? man i'll bet svs, ed, hsu, epik and av123 will see a drop in sales. Craig, your work here has been extremely valuable. Your tests WILL be missed. Good luck with all your new ventures.
Leon

When was AV123 MFW-15 added to the list? I thought the eD A5-350 was the only one in top 10 and was priced less than 1000.

When was AV123 MFW-15 added to the list? I thought the eD A5-350 was the only one in top 10 and was priced less than 1000.
I think it was near the end of last week some rumblings about the MFW15 was starting to come out and over the weekend, the results came out, then Monday morning, the barriage of competitors cancellations and new orders for it. :) I thought there was going to be a dual MFW15 test also but that may not happen now.

I thought there was going to be a dual MFW15 test also but that may not happen now.
It's the last test he's going to do.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12889156#post12889156

Ok people help me decide :D I need A+ sound quality for critical music listening, but I also need the kick for HT. I live in a smallish apartment but will probably have a larger living room in the not-too-far-off future. Here's what I've been considering:

SVS SB12 (good for music, not much else?)
SVS PB12NSD (I hear this has improved lots?)
ML Abyss (probably not a wise choice because of cost and what you get for it)
Epik Valor
Epik Knight
ED A5-350
AV123 MFW15

Any opinions, anything I'm missing?

Ok people help me decide :D I need A+ sound quality for critical music listening, but I also need the kick for HT. I live in a smallish apartment but will probably have a larger living room in the not-too-far-off future. Here's what I've been considering:

SVS SB12 (good for music, not much else?)
SVS PB12NSD (I hear this has improved lots?)
ML Abyss (probably not a wise choice because of cost and what you get for it)
Epik Valor
Epik Knight
ED A5-350
AV123 MFW15

Any opinions, anything I'm missing?


Way to narrow it down there. ;) Seriously, no-one can make your decision for you. There are too many personal factors that go into it. You've got sealed and ported listed. 12" and 15" woofers. Big and small.

Lots of us would likely never be able to "sell" one of the big Epiks or ED subs to our wives. You may not have that issue. That said, if you want excellent music performance without giving up too much on the HT end, perhaps the Valor would be a good choice from reports. Or the MFW-15. Or the PB12... Good luck.

SVS SB12
SVS PB12NSD
ML Abyss
Epik Valor
Epik Knight
ED A5-350
AV123 MFW15


The Knight or the mfw-15

AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47)

MFW-15 is what I did Monday. Better WAF if you buy the wood upgrade.
...and just a better value looking at the score.

Thanks for all your work Craig... and its good to know that you will continue the reviews but in a slightly different fashion.. (as GTGs) :)

Btw, as you move away from this thread it would be great to post the links to various Subs so that people can easily check the manufacturer website for the subs they are interested in. I did gather some data and posting it here... see if you can use this to update your master list.... (there are a few that I could not find a proper URL for.... see if you have anything on those). Here's the list with links:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2200 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53) Link (http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?products_id=606)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52) Link (http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/ConquestOverview.html)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52) Link (http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm)
Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50) Link (http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/CastleOverview.html)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48)
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50) Link (http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?prod_id=371)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50) Link (http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=subwoofers&product=15.1)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48) Link (http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/subwoofers/subwoofers.html#trinity)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50) Link (http://www.velodyne.com/products/product.aspx?ID=4&sid=779q349i)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50) Link (http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/maestro/maestro.htm)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46) Link (http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=618)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50) Link (http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?prod_id=372)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47) Link (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-ho-turbo.html)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47) Link (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-ho.html)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47) Link (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-mk3-turbo.html)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47) Link (http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/ValorOverview.html)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46) Link (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-mk3.html)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47) Link (http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep500_main.html)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40) Link (http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-plus2.cfm)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43) Link (http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46) Link (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk3.html)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Acculine A-sub ($289 ID/SI): 85 points (provisional, currently out of production) (40-45) Link (http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_32&products_id=68)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39) Link (http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=407)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40) Link (http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47) Link (http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=71)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44) Link (http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=subwoofers&product=12.1)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)
Rocket Tyke: 60 points (If you care, PM me ... )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice job with the links.

Yea thanks a lot Craig, I thought I had a nice sub with the PB12+2, until I read this thread. Now I am obligated to shell out some cash for a more potent unit. I can't have a sub that is so far down on the list, although I did buy it more than 3 years ago.

I had never heard of Epic, eD, or some of the others on the list. I am sure glad I did'nt buy the HSU HO Turbo before I read this thread, I almost did. I am hoping to get an Epic Conquest or maybe 2 MFW's for bass needs.

Yea thanks a lot Craig, I thought I had a nice sub with the PB12+2, until I read this thread. Now I am obligated to shell out some cash for a more potent unit. I can't have a sub that is so far down on the list, although I did buy it more than 3 years ago.

I had never heard of Epic, eD, or some of the others on the list. I am sure glad I did'nt buy the HSU HO Turbo before I read this thread, I almost did. I am hoping to get an Epic Conquest or maybe 2 MFW's for bass needs.

I still remember getting my first PM from Craig when trying to decide between a couple of the well-known brands last year. Priceless help...

Craig--you've set the bar so high! What a combo of intelligence, wit, drive, and $$; not to mention an amazing wife and family who supported all the crazy shipments and movements and demonstrations...

Much obliged. Keep us posted ;^)

Some of these posts are absolutely humbling, thank you to everyone.

I have 3 products for subwoofer enchancements on the drawing boards, the type of things that will work with any company's products.

This is actually more than I thought was going to happen, and it is pretty cool.

And, as I eluded to earlier this week ... this style of review us coming to an end, but we plan on starting something new ... and hopefully some of the board members here and some other forums will volunteer to attend some GTG style events.

Don't look for any of this until the second half of 2008 ... but it will happen. :)

Some of these posts are absolutely humbling, thank you to everyone.

I have 3 products for subwoofer enchancements on the drawing boards, the type of things that will work with any company's products.

This is actually more than I thought was going to happen, and it is pretty cool.

And, as I eluded to earlier this week ... this style of review us coming to an end, but we plan on starting something new ... and hopefully some of the board members here and some other forums will volunteer to attend some GTG style events.

Don't look for any of this until the second half of 2008 ... but it will happen. :)
Thanks for the help you have given me, I will definitely support GTG in anyway that I can.:D

Some of these posts are absolutely humbling, thank you to everyone.

I have 3 products for subwoofer enchancements on the drawing boards, the type of things that will work with any company's products.

This is actually more than I thought was going to happen, and it is pretty cool.

And, as I eluded to earlier this week ... this style of review us coming to an end, but we plan on starting something new ... and hopefully some of the board members here and some other forums will volunteer to attend some GTG style events.

Don't look for any of this until the second half of 2008 ... but it will happen. :)count me in on any houston sub gtg's!

Craigsub, when do you think you will wrap up testing on the dual MFW-15's ?

--Regards,

Hey, for anyone that has watched/listened to the movie Pulse, at what point in the movie does all of this hard hitting bass happen? I did not make it through the whole movie last night but have yet to hear anything really over the top. Maybe that means my sub is lacking.

Hey, for anyone that has watched/listened to the movie Pulse, at what point in the movie does all of this hard hitting bass happen? I did not make it through the whole movie last night but have yet to hear anything really over the top. Maybe that means my sub is lacking.

i think its the computer room scene. i missed it the first time too. fell asleep, crappy movie, but was awakened for no reason. probably my subs bottoming out!
by the way what sub were you using?

i think its the computer room scene. i missed it the first time too. fell asleep, crappy movie, but was awakened for no reason. probably my subs bottoming out!
by the way what sub were you using?

Okay, I probably have not come to it yet then. I'm using a little Dayton SUB-120 so I very well may break the thing if this scene is what everyone says it is! I'm trying to talk myself into a MFW-15 but there are so many toys I'm considering right now...

Okay, I probably have not come to it yet then. I'm using a little Dayton SUB-120 so I very well may break the thing if this scene is what everyone says it is! I'm trying to talk myself into a MFW-15 but there are so many toys I'm considering right now...

It has to be within 10 minutes of the end, the crescendo of the movie, as it were.

I am looking for sub(s) for my media room--- 90% HT use. Problem is size and odd open shape. Room is roughly 30x23 with 12' ceilings. Thats about 680 sq/ft or roughly 8000 cubic ft (due to cut corners and coffer ceiling). See attached rough drawing. Looking for sound quality and huge effect you can feel... In car stereo in past I loved JL in sealed enclosures but that was for music. I tend to believe I will need a ported setup to obtain the desired effect. What are recomendations?

I am looking for sub(s) for my media room--- 90% HT use. Problem is size and odd open shape. Room is roughly 30x23 with 12' ceilings. Thats about 680 sq/ft or roughly 8000 cubic ft (due to cut corners and coffer ceiling). See attached rough drawing. Looking for sound quality and huge effect you can feel... In car stereo in past I loved JL in sealed enclosures but that was for music. I tend to believe I will need a ported setup to obtain the desired effect. What are recomendations?

Chances are, you'll need MULTIPLE ported subs to get the huge, visceral impact you're looking for in an 8000 cubic foot room. Going DIY might be the best option there. If you don't want to do that, Maybe an Epik Conquest, or two Calibers would do the trick pretty well for you.

I am looking for sub(s) for my media room--- 90% HT use. Problem is size and odd open shape. Room is roughly 30x23 with 12' ceilings. Thats about 680 sq/ft or roughly 8000 cubic ft (due to cut corners and coffer ceiling). See attached rough drawing. Looking for sound quality and huge effect you can feel... In car stereo in past I loved JL in sealed enclosures but that was for music. I tend to believe I will need a ported setup to obtain the desired effect. What are recomendations?

Personally I would go with dual SVS pb/13 Ultras. There are many great choices now, it is a great time to buy a subwoofer.

Or, you can talk your neighbor into letting you demo his epik castle (just ordered, arriving next week). Who knows, bring him over a 12 pack and maybe he'll even help carry it over to your house to try it out. You'll need 2 of them however. It will at least give you a feel of what you need.

lol. Not sure if my neighbor should be lifting any furniture sized equipment...and with my bad back we won't get far! I'm pretty sure it will crush a Little Flyer red wagon...

How about trying a single ED A7-900 and using it as your coffee table. The added effect of having it nearfield should be awesome! You can probably even get away with one sub since it has tremendous output capabilities. As the table, it will be easy to place because it is hidden in plain sight. :D

My room is similar if not slightly larger. I should have a MFW-15 next week and will give feedback on how it works. I don't need the whole space rattling, just the HT area (about half the space). I was going to do a ceiling IB (DIY), probably better for a large room, but the MFW-15 got such a good review (and is 10X the PDR-8 sub I have now) I thought I'd give it a shot. Just depends on if you like pictures to fall off the wall or just have the couch shake a little...

Run some sound measurements around the room, it can make a huge difference in output. I have one "sweet spot" that's 5-10dB louder with no nulls, where a few spots were close to zero hz. at 2 frequencies.

I am looking for sub(s) for my media room--- 90% HT use. Problem is size and odd open shape. Room is roughly 30x23 with 12' ceilings. Thats about 680 sq/ft or roughly 8000 cubic ft (due to cut corners and coffer ceiling). See attached rough drawing. Looking for sound quality and huge effect you can feel... In car stereo in past I loved JL in sealed enclosures but that was for music. I tend to believe I will need a ported setup to obtain the desired effect. What are recomendations?

How about trying a single ED A7-900 and using it as your coffee table. The added effect of having it nearfield should be awesome! You can probably even get away with one sub since it has tremendous output capabilities. As the table, it will be easy to place because it is hidden in plain sight. :D

I actually went home and measured how high it would be in respect to my couch, a little too tall!
My physics are rusty but I think the distance to the sub would effect the wave peak...still an awesome idea!

Thanks for all your work Craig... and its good to know that you will continue the reviews but in a slightly different fashion.. (as GTGs) :)

Btw, as you move away from this thread it would be great to post the links to various Subs so that people can easily check the manufacturer website for the subs they are interested in. I did gather some data and posting it here... see if you can use this to update your master list.... (there are a few that I could not find a proper URL for.... see if you have anything on those). Here's the list with links:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2200 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53) Link (http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?products_id=606)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52) Link (http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/ConquestOverview.html)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52) Link (http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm)
Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50) Link (http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/CastleOverview.html)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48)
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50) Link (http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?prod_id=371)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50) Link (http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=subwoofers&product=15.1)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48) Link (http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/subwoofers/subwoofers.html#trinity)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50) Link (http://www.velodyne.com/products/product.aspx?ID=4&sid=779q349i)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50) Link (http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/maestro/maestro.htm)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46) Link (http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=618)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50) Link (http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?prod_id=372)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47) Link (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-ho-turbo.html)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47) Link (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-ho.html)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47) Link (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-mk3-turbo.html)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47) Link (http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/ValorOverview.html)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46) Link (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-mk3.html)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47) Link (http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep500_main.html)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40) Link (http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-plus2.cfm)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43) Link (http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46) Link (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk3.html)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Acculine A-sub ($289 ID/SI): 85 points (provisional, currently out of production) (40-45) Link (http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_32&products_id=68)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39) Link (http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=407)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40) Link (http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47) Link (http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=71)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44) Link (http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=subwoofers&product=12.1)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)
Rocket Tyke: 60 points (If you care, PM me ... )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if this is the latest list then it seems like the MFW-15 is the one to get for the money

Craig is going to review (hopefully today!) dual MFW's and I believe that will conclude the list.

Those reviews and scores are excellent and thanks to those guys who devoted their time and efforts. It anybody can post some hard data on the tests such as come kinds of charts and curves that will be even greater. People may like to learn more than reading those limited descriptions.

Those reviews and scores are excellent and thanks to those guys who devoted their time and efforts. It anybody can post some hard data on the tests such as come kinds of charts and curves that will be even greater. People may like to learn more than reading those limited descriptions.

The hard data is in the thread and provided during the test phase of the sub.

Craig, first let me say thanks for all the valuable information. It helped a lot in deciding which sub to purchase. Since you aren't planning on doing a full review of the smaller subs, Do you think it would be possible to add a section for the smaller subs with a score range? Most people should understand that it isn't a full review, but it would give a general idea about how the small subs compare to the big boys. Which is what I was looking for when I originally asked about a review for HTIB type subs. Even if you don't do it, thanks again for all the valuable information you have provided.

Oh no!! I have lurked here almost every day for the longest. I get pulled away for two weeks and this happens! Somebody say it aint so! Come back Craig!

I just pruchased two subs reviewed here and I am not sure which is the more accurate statment.

I bought two subs and this thread helped me make my puchasing decision.
(I am smart and use all information available to make wise purchasing decisions and get the most for my money. I now have subwoofers that perform to a level that others may have paid many thousands of $$$$$$ to achieve. I am cool! :cool:)

OR

I bought two subs and this thread made me do it.
(I am weak and have been manipulated. I have brought subwoofers the size of coffins and small refrigerators into my home and now all my friends and family think I am crazy. I used to be cool but this thread turned me into a helpless nerd. :()

Seriously, thanks Craig and good luck to you!

Did everyone get a chance to see the pic of my brother and some of his people ?

Good.

They laughed at me when I asked them to do a test of the $100-$150 subwoofers.

I will make those who want to see the entry level subs tested a deal: I will put one together on my own, and score them accordingly. Included in that test is the lowest in room response capability, and some graphs posted for each.

The only listening tests will be my own, and I will try to assign a complete score when done.

For your end, no one is allowed to later slam me for doing a unilateral test ... :eek::D

Well...you KNOW that I would be interested...;)

Did everyone get a chance to see the pic of my brother and some of his people ?

I had to check out the pics again. I really can't understand why they would laugh at reviewing the $100 to $150 subs... :rolleyes: :D (supposed to be sarcastic)

For your end, no one is allowed to later slam me for doing a unilateral test ... :eek::D

I know I will not slam you, but I have a feeling that some people will complain no matter what. I know that you will be busy pursuing business opportunities, and taking time to do these reviews should not be a high priority. But as you can tell by how many the posts of thanks that you have received since announcing the end to subwoofer reviews, a lot people trust the results of your testing.

If you do end up testing any of the small guys, thanks again. :) I suggested a score range and separate section, so that you could do less extensive testing. This could save the amount of time you would need to do a review, but would still give a general idea of the small subs capabilities.

craigsub, I don't know much about you but guess you may be an enthusiastic hobbist in this. Have tyou thought about forming a non-profit independant and unbiased organization specializing in eveluating Subs and speakers or even other components? It may need much much more work and time if you do so but once you extablishsed that it would be one step leap over this forum. And your report could be somewhat of guidelines for audiophiles.

craigsub, I don't know much about you but guess you may be an enthusiastic hobbist in this. Have tyou thought about forming a non-profit independant and unbiased organization specializing in eveluating Subs and speakers or even other components? It may need much much more work and time if you do so but once you extablishsed that it would be one step leap over this forum. And your report could be somewhat of guidelines for audiophiles.

A "Consumer Reports" for subwoofers and other audio equipment. Great idea.

By the way Craigsub, I've really enjoyed your reviews and appreciate all the time you've put into this.

craigsub, I don't know much about you but guess you may be an enthusiastic hobbist in this. Have tyou thought about forming a non-profit independant and unbiased organization specializing in eveluating Subs and speakers or even other components? It may need much much more work and time if you do so but once you extablishsed that it would be one step leap over this forum. And your report could be somewhat of guidelines for audiophiles.

I think that's almost what Craig has already been doing over the past couple of years.

I see the entry level subs or subs in the HTIB as stepping stones. I know they are affordable and cheap but generally if you're serious, you'll move up to better subs. Personally, I don't see the need for reviews, now on the more expensive subs, a purchase mistake can be more costly. Of course, I'll still follow whatever Craig continues to review. ;)

I have a JBL PSW-1200 entry level home theater sub (paid like $400 when it was new) and even though it doesn't tear the room down, this sub has been very good to me and is over 11 years old!!

Did everyone get a chance to see the pic of my brother and some of his people ?

Good.

They laughed at me when I asked them to do a test of the $100-$150 subwoofers.

I will make those who want to see the entry level subs tested a deal: I will put one together on my own, and score them accordingly. Included in that test is the lowest in room response capability, and some graphs posted for each.

The only listening tests will be my own, and I will try to assign a complete score when done.

For your end, no one is allowed to later slam me for doing a unilateral test ... :eek::D


Craig, I know I've been after you and Ed Mullen (before he went to SVS) to do a budget sub show down, but you didn't have to go that low in price! :eek: $150.00 to $199.00 would have been just fine. ;):D I'm looking forward to reading your review. Thanks!

Ian

Did everyone get a chance to see the pic of my brother and some of his people ?

Good.

They laughed at me when I asked them to do a test of the $100-$150 subwoofers.

I will make those who want to see the entry level subs tested a deal: I will put one together on my own, and score them accordingly. Included in that test is the lowest in room response capability, and some graphs posted for each.

The only listening tests will be my own, and I will try to assign a complete score when done.

For your end, no one is allowed to later slam me for doing a unilateral test ... :eek::D

Use ear plugs. One at a time in each ear. That way you'll have multiple opinions to score :).

Seriously, I don't think you'll get slammed with your experience in evaluating various subs all over the price range and the results should be helpful for alot of folks on a budget.

I still don't undersatand why this thread is not a STICKY!!!!!!!!:mad:
Does anyone agree?

This is my 1st post...all I do is read & learn, but I just had to say THANKS CRAIG for everything you've done. This is by far the best resource available and for free!!!

If your ever down to the OBX of NC let me know.

why would anyone ever visit a Carolina fan?:confused:

Craig

Will the Epik Knight be the last sub you review? If so do you know when your going to start testing? Do you already have the sub?

Craig

Will the Epik Knight be the last sub you review? If so do you know when your going to start testing? Do you already have the sub?


he won't be reviewing the Knight.

He will be doing one more testing session on dual MFW-15's vs the PB13. Then he's hanging it up.

Guys, we will be running the final test this week on the MFW-15 as duals, then it is time to shut this down.

I discussed with my dealership partner the purchase of a new store, which we are moving forward on, and am also contracting with some new concepts for my financial services company, and will be in conference near Boston next week.

This has been fun, but all things must end.Post #5795 on page 194...

why would anyone ever visit a Carolina fan?:confused:

Even Dook fans are welcome to come to the OBX. :)

he won't be reviewing the Knight.

He will be doing one more testing session on dual MFW-15's vs the PB13. Then he's hanging it up.

That should be an interesting testing session. A good one to go out on.

If Chad wants the Knight tested, or the eD guys the A7-450, that would be cool. I did promise to test them, and am pretty sure I can get the guys back for one final session in March.

I will leave it to them.

We started on the MFW-15's last night ...

I'm looking forward to your evaluation on the duals, Craig.

--Regards,

I still don't undersatand why this thread is not a STICKY!!!!!!!!:mad:
Does anyone agree?

Didn't have to be. It is always at the top anyway :)

If Chad wants the Knight tested, or the eD guys the A7-450, that would be cool. I did promise to test them, and am pretty sure I can get the guys back for one final session in March.

I will leave it to them.

We started on the MFW-15's last night ...

thats great craig. thx again for all you've done.

Every time I read this thread I want one of the subs on the top the list. I just wish they come in smaller packages. Size matters!!

Craig,

I just wanted to say thank you for all the time and energy you have put into these reviews! I have valued your insights and its just been an overall pleasure reading your ratings of all these products! Thanks again!

Ben

I still don't understand why this thread is not a STICKY!!!!!!!!:mad:
Does anyone agree?

Should have been a "Sticky" 9 months ago!

Ted

If Chad wants the Knight tested, or the eD guys the A7-450, that would be cool. I did promise to test them, and am pretty sure I can get the guys back for one final session in March.

I will leave it to them.

We started on the MFW-15's last night ...


Cannot wait to hear more about the duals up against the PB13!!!!

Thank you Craigsub for making this such a great place to read and learn about subs so we can make better decisions. There is so much "good stuff" to pick from these days.

The duals are doing quite well ... the impressions so far, under blind tests, are matching what they were previously:

The Ultra (in 15 Hz tuning) does go deeper, but the MFW-15's are giving a solid 16 Hz in room response and a slam factor that is reminding a few of the guys of the big Genelec sub.

As for future tests, a request made here about "knowing the panel" better is going to happen.

The next generation of subwoofer tests will include an open invite for AVS members, with individual writeups of the subwoofers handed in before their identity is made known.

AND ... I will make the identity known before looking at the written results.

Thanks Craig for the incredibly valuable information you share with us in your tests and posts. Read them almost every day from Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Thanks again.
Santiago

The Ultra (in 15 Hz tuning) does go deeper, but the MFW-15's are giving a solid 16 Hz in room response and a slam factor that is reminding a few of the guys of the big Genelec sub.

Impressive.

--Regards,

Craigsub, what volume levels do you use when making subjective evaluations (both master volume and overall sub level ) ? You may have answered this on another page (or not) but when making these evaluations, is your room equalized flat or do you make use of a house curve ?

--Regards,

Craig, please don't get offended, but how does the Velodyne DD18 get a 50 in movies when the HT numbers don't look too high at all? Everyone at the Toronto GTG thought the DD18 wasn't impressive for HT. Which, correlates with the numbers.

Craig, please don't get offended, but how does the Velodyne DD18 get a 50 in movies when the HT numbers don't look too high at all? Everyone at the Toronto GTG thought the DD18 wasn't impressive for HT. Which, correlates with the numbers.

The DD-18 is an excellent product, and delivers the goods on a variety of movie scenes. If you want a 2nd opinion, check out Keith Yate's impressions from when he tested it.

chegbin,
the dd18 is a fine sub, it just didn't blow us away at the gtg. In the last couple of years the performance of subs has taken off while the prices have come down. The dd18 will still have it's niche but there may need to be some price reductions in order for it to remain competitive imho.

craig, how does mwf-15 driver compare to the one in Castle ? castle scores 6 points higher for HT but it has a bigger box and more watts..does it mean the drivers are fairly close in performance?

Here are some graphs from the same scene on WOTW ...

Conquest (the amp shut down at this point. Keep that in mind, and the room felt like it was coming apart):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/Conquest15ftwotw.jpg

A5-350:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/a5350wotw13ft.jpg

Castle:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/castlewotw.jpg

Dual MFW-15's:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/MFW-15DualsWOTW.jpg

PB-13 Ultra:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SVSUltraWOTW.jpg

The Dual MFW-15's are done ... the longer summary will be posted later. It (they) scored a 56-53 for a total of 109 points.

Nice. Those are very impressive numbers. Would I expect to see the same type of performance increase if I were to add a second Castle? 15% improvement across the board?

Interesting, wouldn't have thought they'd score slighly higher on music but less on HT (in comparison to the Ultra). Would have guessed the other way around!

Very, very impressive.

yes, ineteresting 3 point bump on music

Probably due to the duals allowing for an even flatter response, now that I think of it.

So dual MFW-15's outperformed the SVS PB13-Ultra for music. But did not outperform for home theater ? Interesting.

--Regards,

craig, are there any plans to test the dayton hsu subs that are coming out in march?

Hmm, very interesting results and not what I expected. Maybe I will look at the Tower after all since I am primarly using my sub for HT.

Hmm, very interesting results and not what I expected. Maybe I will look at the Tower after all since I am primarly using my sub for HT.

since the duals pretty much equal a castle, shouldnt one assume it would be similar for the tower?
so what we have right now is a 3 way tie for 4th, give or take a little. i doubt the tower would move ahead into 3rd. any of these subs would be wonderful, better than most people would even dream of.

since the duals pretty much equal a castle, shouldnt one assume it would be similar for the tower?
so what we have right now is a 3 way tie for 4th, give or take a little. i doubt the tower would move ahead into 3rd. any of these subs would be wonderful, better than most people would even dream of.

Comes down to personal preference at this point. I will defintely weigh in Cragi's full review of the dual's before making a final decision, but again, it fully depends on if you want a better HT sub or a better sub for music. Room constraints will also play in now as well because unless you stack 2 MFW's, I can't see a single castle being larger (although I could be wrong) :D

since the duals pretty much equal a castle, shouldnt one assume it would be similar for the tower?
so what we have right now is a 3 way tie for 4th, give or take a little. i doubt the tower would move ahead into 3rd. any of these subs would be wonderful, better than most people would even dream of.

This is a pretty good quote ... When you consider we are talking $1000 to $1500, all are remarkable performers.

The "wish list" ... or compromise, of each the subs would be as follows ..

MFW-15's ... Give them the Ultra's or Castle's 13-16 Hz Strength

Castle ... Give it the upper bass (40-80 Hz) articulation of the MFW-15's

Ultra-13 ... Give it the bass slam of the MFW-15's

Any of these subwoofers blows away what we had available a year ago ... Ed Mullen's crew, Chad Kuyper's guys and Mark Seaton/Schifter have raised thae bar, again.

And let's not forget the eD guys ... that a7-900 is terrific.

MFW-15's ... Give them the Ultra's or Castle's 13-16 Hz Strength

Castle ... Give it the upper bass (40-80 Hz) articulation of the MFW-15's

Ultra-13 ... Give it the bass slam of the MFW-15'sSounds like you need a Submersive. :D

Wow. That's high flattery toward the MFW-15 that you are wishing some of it's characteristics upon more expensive subs.

Hmm, very interesting results and not what I expected. Maybe I will look at the Tower after all since I am primarly using my sub for HT.

since the duals pretty much equal a castle, shouldnt one assume it would be similar for the tower?
so what we have right now is a 3 way tie for 4th, give or take a little. i doubt the tower would move ahead into 3rd. any of these subs would be wonderful, better than most people would even dream of.

Comes down to personal preference at this point. I will defintely weigh in Cragi's full review of the dual's before making a final decision, but again, it fully depends on if you want a better HT sub or a better sub for music. Room constraints will also play in now as well because unless you stack 2 MFW's, I can't see a single castle being larger (although I could be wrong) :D

Craig is of course right on with his points of the strengths of each being different.

A while back Craig also posted about too much weight being given to any one score, measurement or comment. I'd caution those reading into the WOTW graphs that this is just one specific snapshot. Let's also note that if we only had this graph as info, the dual MFW-15s appear to put out more in the 10-20Hz range than any of the other 4. :rolleyes:

Of course Craig's subjective comments give a more all encompassing evaluation of what he and the panel heard. I would also suggest readers be realistic in the significance of say 1 point on a HT or music score. I would have to dig up the post, but Craig also previously made the point that the music score is not separate from the movie watching experience. Last time I checked, the directors put a little thought into their soundtrack as well as the explosions and related acoustic bombastics. ;)

Off to enjoy the nice change in weather here today.

Cheers,

This is a pretty good quote ... When you consider we are talking $1000 to $1500, all are remarkable performers.

The "wish list" ... or compromise, of each the subs would be as follows ..

MFW-15's ... Give them the Ultra's or Castle's 13-16 Hz Strength

Castle ... Give it the upper bass (40-80 Hz) articulation of the MFW-15's

Ultra-13 ... Give it the bass slam of the MFW-15's

Any of these subwoofers blows away what we had available a year ago ... Ed Mullen's crew, Chad Kuyper's guys and Mark Seaton/Schifter have raised thae bar, again.

And let's not forget the eD guys ... that a7-900 is terrific.
Could you explain those comments for a n00b? I'm not exactly sure what they mean. It sounds like that you're saying they're all in the same ballpark - PB13-U, Castle, and dual MFW-15s.

P.S. I finally got a (single) PB13-Ultra. Very nice. I wasn't really particularly keen on getting two subs at this point, but may change my mind in a few years. In the meantime I'll just have to test the various tuning options. (I've been testing it on 15 Hz. Next up is 10 Hz.)

since the duals pretty much equal a castle, shouldnt one assume it would be similar for the tower?
so what we have right now is a 3 way tie for 4th, give or take a little. i doubt the tower would move ahead into 3rd. any of these subs would be wonderful, better than most people would even dream of.

3rd? What's 3rd?
I see a tie for the 3rd, and Creative Sounds DIY at #4.
Craig, did you try the mwf-15's stacked?

Could you explain those comments for a n00b? I'm not exactly sure what they mean. It sounds like that you're saying they're all in the same ballpark - PB13-U, Castle, and dual MFW-15s.

P.S. I finally got a (single) PB13-Ultra. Very nice. I wasn't really particularly keen on getting two subs at this point, but may change my mind in a few years. In the meantime I'll just have to test the various tuning options. (I've been testing it on 15 Hz. Next up is 10 Hz.)

They are all comparable overall performers ... not identical ... but comparable.

They are all so good that someone asking me which is the "best" is just going to have to figure it out on his own, based on what is more important.

Mark Seaton correctly points out the "be careful about the graphs" thing, too. The Ultra, in the listening portions, was picked consistently as delivering more "I can feel it" bass than did the MFW-15 pair, while the graph shows the opposite. I even mentioned yesterday, after the listening tests, that the Ultra was delivering a more powerful deep bass.

I am pretty sure that is a limitation of the Tef microphone, M-Audio Sound Card, the TrueRTA, or all 3.

This will be reflected in the summary of the MFW-15 pair.

For our 4500 cubic foot room ... 2 Ultras, 4 MFW-15's, or 2 Castles would all be terrific choices for close to bass nirvana ... with 4, 8 and 4 absolutely doing it.

craig, i've always been a bit lost as far as what those graphs really mean.. Is that like a single instant of WOTW where you just take a snapshot with each of the subs.. And how can you do so a high degree of accurace? Or is this like a summation of all the parts some how.. like the highest level at each of those frequencies obtained over the entire clip.

craig, i've always been a bit lost as far as what those graphs really mean.. Is that like a single instant of WOTW where you just take a snapshot with each of the subs.. And how can you do so a high degree of accurace? Or is this like a summation of all the parts some how.. like the highest level at each of those frequencies obtained over the entire clip.

It is the entire chapter (I think #5) in which the machines come out from the ground, done in a peak hold setting on the TrueRTA.

Sounds like you need a Submersive. :D

We are talking something bigger... Really. :)

3rd? What's 3rd?
I see a tie for the 3rd, and Creative Sounds DIY at #4.
Craig, did you try the mwf-15's stacked?

im sorry it is pretty much a 3 way tie for 3rd, with the ultra- castle-duals, all getting 109 pts each.

Any possibility to see a single MFW-15 WOTW graph?

Were the dual MFW-15's co-located or not?

Thanks!

The MFW-15's are stacked.

I also took the time to change some settings in my computer, and in the TrueRTA ... The software was changed to "slow" instead of "fast", and I increased the CPU speed from "1" to "3". Here are new graphs using those settings.

Here is the Ultra:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SVSUltraWOTWSlow.jpg

A single MFW-15:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/MFW15singleWOTWSlow.jpg

Dual, Stacked MFW-15's:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/MFW-15DualsWOTWSlow.jpg

We are talking something bigger... Really. :)Submersive XL, Terraform, Terraform XL? Do tell... :eek:

This is going to be a tough choice for me...I have been torn between the PB13 and the pair of MFW15's...

Thanks for all your testing and input Craig! and thanks to your group for their help and input.

This is a pretty good quote ... When you consider we are talking $1000 to $1500, all are remarkable performers.

The "wish list" ... or compromise, of each the subs would be as follows ..

MFW-15's ... Give them the Ultra's or Castle's 13-16 Hz Strength

Castle ... Give it the upper bass (40-80 Hz) articulation of the MFW-15's

Ultra-13 ... Give it the bass slam of the MFW-15's



Which raises the question, "is it even possible to not have compromises and combine the strengths of each of these subs or is it technically impossible?"

Which raises the question, "is it even possible to not have compromises and combine the strengths of each of these subs or is it technically impossible?"

Sure, spend more $$$$ ... :D

Seriously, for $1000, the Castle and MFW-15's are fantastic.

They are all comparable overall performers ... not identical ... but comparable.

They are all so good that someone asking me which is the "best" is just going to have to figure it out on his own, based on what is more important.

Mark Seaton correctly points out the "be careful about the graphs" thing, too. The Ultra, in the listening portions, was picked consistently as delivering more "I can feel it" bass than did the MFW-15 pair, while the graph shows the opposite. I even mentioned yesterday, after the listening tests, that the Ultra was delivering a more powerful deep bass.

I am pretty sure that is a limitation of the Tef microphone, M-Audio Sound Card, the TrueRTA, or all 3.

This will be reflected in the summary of the MFW-15 pair.

For our 4500 cubic foot room ... 2 Ultras, 4 MFW-15's, or 2 Castles would all be terrific choices for close to bass nirvana ... with 4, 8 and 4 absolutely doing it.
Thanks.

P.S. 4 MFW-15s? You guys are crazy! :D I'm satisfied with the 1 Ultra. :) (My room is much smaller though.)

Which raises the question, "is it even possible to not have compromises and combine the strengths of each of these subs or is it technically impossible?"

Sure, spend more $$$$ ... :D



IE, buy a7-900 ?

Btw, how does Conquest compare with the above contestants?

IE, buy a7-900 ?

Btw, how does Conquest compare with the above contestants?

The Conquest is a fantastic subwoofer ... Falling about half way between a Castle-Ultra-MFW-15Duals and the A7-900.

If I was looking at Epik, and wanting to get something to compete directly with the A7-900, I would likely go with dual Castles or Towers.

Of course, then there are Quad MFW-15's ...

You get the idea, these 3 companies, in the $2000 range, have some terrific stuff.

Craig:

I apologize if you have answered this already, but between the Castle/Tower and the MFW-15's, which has more of a "slam in the chest" feeling during most bass sweeps? I think this will help me decide given how close they scored in your tests.

Thanks again for all your hard work!

Sure, spend more $$$$ ... :D

Seriously, for $1000, the Castle and MFW-15's are fantastic.

Craig, you are at fault for my lower bank account balance:D I couldn't decide for a 6000 c/f room which way to go, so dual pb13u's got here friday, and dual MFW-15's are due "mid march" your fault, or at least the the story and I'm sticking to it for the wifey:rolleyes:

Craig is responsible for more divorces than the milkman.:D

Craig, you are at fault for my lower bank account balance:D I couldn't decide for a 6000 c/f room which way to go, so dual pb13u's got here friday, and dual MFW-15's are due "mid march" your fault, or at least the the story and I'm sticking to it for the wifey:rolleyes:

I saw the ultras in your cabinet ... they look awesome. Great system, too.

Which raises the question, "is it even possible to not have compromises and combine the strengths of each of these subs or is it technically impossible?"

It is never possible to have no compromises, despite what marketing departments want tell you. At minimum, there will be compromises in price and/or size.

If the main limitations on my first $599 subwoofer with AV123 is the performance in the mid-low teens, I'm satisfied :rolleyes:, especially when a pair is only $999 (and even less with current deals). Only recently have you had a selection of subwoofers with strong output below 20Hz, and still very few are very strong below 16-18Hz.

To answer the question, yes, it is possible for much more performance. Such installations already exist. They cost more. The best results rarely come from a single subwoofer in those applications, but a single subwoofer does have the potential to be a better bargain. The reality is that the savings has to be significant enough and there has to be enough demand for it not to be a better option to just use mutiples.

Sure, spend more $$$$ ... :D

Seriously, for $1000, the Castle and MFW-15's are fantastic.

Craig,

First I want to say thanks for all the work you did on testing/reviewing these subs. I have a question to ask of you based on your experience doing this.

Do you have any thoughts on the new Emotiva DRS-1 system ($1000) with an onboard room measurement/equalization system built-in to the amp? I am not aware of any sub in your vast array of test units that will do this. If there was one, how did it compare? Do you think it would make the top 10 list?

Sure would be great if the new team would consider including this into the next test :D

Good luck in your new endeavor....

Mike

Mark,
Sounds like one Epik Conquest for $1,599.00 would be the way to go in a larger room, in stead of four MFW's.
I think that stacking or putting subwoofers next to each other is better, or easier then placing them in different locations. Too many standing waves and cancelations going on when the subs are in different locations. Even more so, as in my case where all my speakers are large and I cross over to them at 40 to 50Hz.
By the way, nice subwoofer you have there. Do you plan on designing a larger sub in the furture?

Mark,
Sounds like one Epik Conquest for $1,599.00 would be the way to go in a larger room, in stead of four MFW's.
I think that stacking or putting subwoofers next to each other is better, or easier then placing them in different locations. Too many standing waves and cancelations going on when the subs are in different locations. Even more so, as in my case where all my speakers are large and I cross over to them at 40 to 50Hz.
By the way, nice subwoofer you have there. Do you plan on designing a larger sub in the furture?

You would be surprised at how multiple subs in different locations has a tendency to smooth out the frequency response throughout the room.

Mark,

Where would the BMF fit in the compromise arena?

You would be surprised at how multiple subs in different locations has a tendency to smooth out the frequency response throughout the room.

This is another reason why some people use the MBM-12 with their present sub woofer.

Bill

You would be surprised at how multiple subs in different locations has a tendency to smooth out the frequency response throughout the room.

You're absolutely right. I've seen the graphs with my own eyes, but at the same time, my ears disagreed. I thought there was less of a refined sound as arrival times varied by location and their summation can extend decay times. I would think that going multiple with careful placement (probably just along the front wall) would be the best approach. You're not eliminating the summed decay times, but minimizing the wider variances by other placements. ...and this is entirely my personal opinion as people who are far more qualified may or may not agree.

You're absolutely right. I've seen it the graphs with my own eyes, but at the same time, my ears disagreed. I thought there was less of a refined sound as arrival times varied by location and their summation can extend decay times. I would think that going multiple with careful placement (probably just along the front wall) would be the best approach. You're not eliminating the summed decay times, but minimizing the wider variances by other placements.

Your ears are very astute. Multiple subs in very varied locations can create a mess in the time domain. Adjusting for distance can help, but usually only in the measured seating area sweet spot. I fully agree about the multiple placement along the front wall and not too far from the mains.

Mark,

Where would the BMF fit in the compromise arena?

By comparison to the A7-900 and Conquest, or more than 2 MFW-15s, the BMF isn't terribly large, and many would say it looks pretty slick. The size is on the compact side for what it does, thus it getting 1kW to do what it does. The pair of 18" low frequency PRs take up less space than a port, but cost a little. AV123 can deliver products at prices I would never bother with on my own, so I guess compromise is all relative. In simplest terms, for $2000 it takes the experience up another level. It will have a lot more deep bass power than dual MFW-15s, and to this crowd the size might seem reasonable. :rolleyes: Of course the BMF isn't shipping yet, so if you want to discuss this further that should move over to the AV123 forums where I have already posted lots of information.

The above said, if you are lusting for the big slam of a concert kick-drum and the space isn't an issue, quad MFW-15s are about the same price as the BMF, and might be an equal or better choice. Dollars aside, those options pose a BIG difference in size.

You're absolutely right. I've seen the graphs with my own eyes, but at the same time, my ears disagreed. I thought there was less of a refined sound as arrival times varied by location and their summation can extend decay times. I would think that going multiple with careful placement (probably just along the front wall) would be the best approach. You're not eliminating the summed decay times, but minimizing the wider variances by other placements. ...and this is entirely my personal opinion as people who are far more qualified may or may not agree.

Have you actually seen the graphs of the same system you were listening to? Theory and practice sometimes diverge. If your room dimensions leave any subwoofer (and therefore speaker) placed along the front wall with a black hole in response above 50-60Hz, additional subwoofers at different locations can absolutely sound better in every regard.

I will agree that subwoofers both near and far can make for some more interesting setup hurdles. I have done systems both ways, having near and far subwoofers handled as one entity, and handling them separately with their own delay and processing. Both can work, and what works best will depend on the hurdles the room poses.

craig, any pics of the stacked subs ? :D

Anyone else having problems getting to the av123 web site? I can get to the forum but not the av123 dot com?

Anyone else having problems getting to the av123 web site? I can get to the forum but not the av123 dot com?They're having some issue with their web host.

AV123 was making the transfer to their new site, it's up and running, for me anyhow.

Craig, once again thanks for your work on this...not that it matters. You sold me on the A7-900 a couple of months ago, and mine is in paintshop. None-the-less it is interesting reading about all of the new gear coming along. The dual MFW-15's would have integrated a bit better into my theater I think, but we'll see what we have once the BEAST gets here. Luckily my beloved has no problems w/ a 2x2x4' black object in the room. It's only the center of our house!

Mark, excellent work! What more can be said...

av123 dot com is back. Thank you.

If the main limitations on my first $599 subwoofer with AV123 is the performance in the mid-low teens, I'm satisfied :rolleyes:, especially when a pair is only $999 (and even less with current deals).

Could someone kindly point me to the current deals.

Thanks

Could someone kindly point me to the current deals.

Thanks

PM'ed you.

Could someone kindly point me to the current deals.

Thanks


Me too please...current deals....thanks.:)

PM'ed you.

Is it a secret? If you aren't advertising it seems like it is fair game.