Oddly enough, AV123 has a phone number :)

Oddly enough, AV123 has a phone number :)

:eek:

and a website with a forum... :eek:

Could someone kindly point me to the current deals.

Thanks

http://www.av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=28415

Having just directed my buddy to this same deal, I have the link handy. That's the av123 forum thread "Time for a Celebration...", in the loudspeakers section. You can also call if you want--Mark says to contact Kyle in that thread.

Could someone kindly point me to the current deals.

Thanks

Is it a secret? If you aren't advertising it seems like it is fair game.
No secret, Fatawan posted the link. Also, you need to call to order for discount if you're ordering more than one MFW. Online does not discount for 2+ subs, etc. GC promo ends 31st.

I wish you guys could see my wife when I explain why I need to being the A7-900 into the house to finish testing. This beasts delivers 112 dB Groundplane @ 20 Hz. She shakes her head, and walks away muttering ... it is hilarious.

The scores for it and the ultra will be done this weekend.

this is why i love my girlfriend - she would help carry it in and then ask if it plays any louder

this is why i love my girlfriend - she would help carry it in and then ask if it plays any louder

Is her mother available?

Bill

I currently have a hgs15x and have a room resonance at around 45 hz. The room is 12'x30'x8'. I was thinking of adding an sms-1 to clean up the response. If you'all had about $1500-$1800, what would you do? Add the sms-1 or sell the Velodyne and buy an SVS, JL audio ?????????

Thanks for you help.

I currently have a hgs15x and have a room resonance at around 45 hz. The room is 12'x30'x8'. I was thinking of adding an sms-1 to clean up the response. If you'all had about $1500-$1800, what would you do? Add the sms-1 or sell the Velodyne and buy an SVS, JL audio ?????????

Thanks for you help.

You could get an SVS PB13 Ultra and use the Parametric EQ to smooth out that one peak. Sound quality and output should also be substantially better than with your current sub.

I currently have a hgs15x and have a room resonance at around 45 hz. The room is 12'x30'x8'. I was thinking of adding an sms-1 to clean up the response. If you'all had about $1500-$1800, what would you do? Add the sms-1 or sell the Velodyne and buy an SVS, JL audio ?????????

Thanks for you help.

That price range looks like a Conquest

I was all set to buy the F-113. Then I found this Forum. Need I say more?
I now have it narrowed down to getting one Conquest or two Castles. Then I'll add the SMS-1 and still be under my budget for the F-113.
I can't say that I like all these 30" deep subs, I wish they were more like 24" deep and made higher and wider.
I looked up AV123's BMF-1, and it too is 30" deep. I was going to wait and give that one a try if it wasn't for that.

I can't say that I like all these 30" deep subs, I wish they were more like 24" deep and made higher and wider.
I looked up AV123's BMF-1, and it too is 30" deep. I was going to wait and give that one a try if it wasn't for that.
I couldn't agree more. I took some measurements last night and 30" really sticks out from the wall much further than my speakers, TV table or eq rack. I do like the looks of the BMF-1 though as it appears to match my Rocket 850's. Damn thing has the same footprint as the Conquest though. I've already ruled the Conquest out due to size and frankly, aesthetics. (not to be confused with build quality) I'm going to have to continue thinking this one over. Anyone have an ETA for the BMF-1?

Considering what Seaton is capable of, the BMF could be a killer sub, but I wouldn't hold my breath on a delivery any time soon.

We are not giving out ETA's, sorry. Too many variables at play to be accurate.

Thanks,

Sean

Anyone have an ETA for the BMF-1?

I was all set to buy the F-113. Then I found this Forum. Need I say more?
I now have it narrowed down to getting one Conquest or two Castles. Then I'll add the SMS-1 and still be under my budget for the F-113.
I can't say that I like all these 30" deep subs, I wish they were more like 24" deep and made higher and wider.
.
You mean like this one (http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?t=2&products_id=656)?

Btw, I can't stand not knowing how a7s-450 compares to the mwf-15 and the epiks...someone needs to test it against one of those.

Will 2 PB13U beat the A7-900 in terms of output?

stacked, by about 1 decibel..but they will definetely slaughter it in the cost department

Does placing two subs side by side give the same additional 6dB that stacked subwoofers give?

Does placing two subs side by side give the same additional 6dB that stacked subwoofers give?
Yes, as long as they are relatively close to each other (say within a few feet), you will always get the full +6 dB.

Does placing two subs side by side give the same additional 6dB that stacked subwoofers give?

generally,no

Co-locating should be co-locating whether stacked or side-by-side.

If two subwoofers are placed in adjacent corners then one can expect a 3 dB increase across the board provided both subwoofers are in phase at the listening position and you calibrate to the same sound pressure level.

--Regards,

For anyone thinking of purchasing one of the Elemental Designs Subs, be careful to read ALL of the "Official Elemental Designs Subwoofer Thread". Shipping damage is occuring, and if Fed Ex doesn't honor your claim, eD won't, either. Read the thread to do what you can to protect yourself.

For anyone thinking of purchasing one of the Elemental Designs Subs, be careful to read ALL of the "Official Elemental Designs Subwoofer Thread". Shipping damage is occuring, and if Fed Ex doesn't honor your claim, eD won't, either. Read the thread to do what you can to protect yourself.

Mmm...that's not good. This is why I always have things shipped to my work so I can be there to inspect it and if necessary, refuse it. If there is a question then at most I would be out the shipping cost but not the whole purchase price. Don't take delivery of goods without inspection. Yeah, I know the delivery guy does not like to wait but MAKE him wait until you can at least take off the outer carton and check for cosmetic damage. Easier to refuse a shipment and mark the bill as damaged than to receive it and go through the hassle later.

You mean like this one (http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?t=2&products_id=656)?

Btw, I can't stand not knowing how a7s-450 compares to the mwf-15 and the epiks...someone needs to test it against one of those.

I saw that ed sub A7-450, and yes the box demensions are to my liking. I may be totally wrong in saying this, but I think Epik uses better quality drivers and amps. I also havn't seen anyones opinion or measurements on that sub.

Two Castles may do the trick. I want to try them laying on thier sides and put one each directly in front of each of my main speakers. I can do this because I use modified Klipschorns as my mains and center channel. The base horn fires into the corner and uses the side walls as part of the horn flare. So the Castles shouldn't interfere with the base waves from the speaker. If that doesn't work then I'll try puting them side by side on a side wall.
I don't have any corners in my room because I use Klipschorns and LaScalas all around.

It's that or one Conquest on it's side on a side wall. Then if I need more, I'll buy and stack another Conquest on top of that one. Fun, Fun, Fun.

Mmm...that's not good. This is why I always have things shipped to my work so I can be there to inspect it and if necessary, refuse it. If there is a question then at most I would be out the shipping cost but not the whole purchase price. Don't take delivery of goods without inspection. Yeah, I know the delivery guy does not like to wait but MAKE him wait until you can at least take off the outer carton and check for cosmetic damage. Easier to refuse a shipment and mark the bill as damaged than to receive it and go through the hassle later.

i received a caliber on 1/21, it was delivered to my work. the box was in near perfect condition.
i took it home and hooked it up, nothing. took it apart as per chads recommendation, and found broken port, and magnets broken off of the driver.
cabinet is in perfect condition. figured it must have been dropped hard to break magnets off of the driver.
by the condition of the box who would have known. i am now waiting for a sub...again.

For anyone thinking of purchasing one of the Elemental Designs Subs, be careful to read ALL of the "Official Elemental Designs Subwoofer Thread". Shipping damage is occuring, and if Fed Ex doesn't honor your claim, eD won't, either. Read the thread to do what you can to protect yourself.
Maybe people should read your whole situation Ted before you go and spout that no one is honoring your claim. As far as I can tell if you had SAVED the BOX the sub had come in you wouldn't be having any problems getting your claim resolved. And if it was me I would have made the Fed-Ex guy put the box back on his truck and refused it. For anyone interested just read Teds other posts. Here is a link to his original one:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12929185#post12929185

Post number 805.

i received a caliber on 1/21, it was delivered to my work. the box was in near perfect condition.
i took it home and hooked it up, nothing. took it apart as per chads recommendation, and found broken port, and magnets broken off of the driver.
cabinet is in perfect condition. figured it must have been dropped hard to break magnets off of the driver.
by the condition of the box who would have known. i am now waiting for a sub...again.

I know I will get in some trouble answering for Chad - but I'll stick my toe in anyways...

Shipping these big brutes is not a simple task... We all test and re-test (and I'm sure they did too) - but sometimes bad stuff does happen... We have lived this nightmare at av123 - and have learned the hard way which carriers do "what" better... There is really an art to this... :)

I know not having your sub is really upsetting - but I'm sure they'll take great care of you... We have eaten something like 40K in product last year (all as "write downs") due to denied freight claims - but we have taken that data and become better at what we are doing - my guess is so will they...

All the best...

mls

Maybe people should read your whole situation Ted before you go and spout that no one is honoring your claim. As far as I can tell if you had SAVED the BOX the sub had come in you wouldn't be having any problems getting your claim resolved. And if it was me I would have made the Fed-Ex guy put the box back on his truck and refused it. For anyone interested just read Teds other posts. Here is a link to his original one:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12929185#post12929185

Post number 805.

Yes indeed, I did make a mistake and have repeatedly acknowledged it in the continuing thread. I had never had a damaged shipment from anyone before and I thought the photos would be proof enough. The quoted post did not mention that I immediately e-mailed eD and asked them what to do, but I didn't receive a response until several weeks and repeated tries. Hence my advice to all to read all the posts so that they don't make the same mistake I made.

Do you work for eD? It seems you are taking umbrage to reasonable advice.

I know I will get in some trouble answering for Chad - but I'll stick my toe in anyways...

Shipping these big brutes is not a simple task... We all test and re-test (and I'm sure they did too) - but sometimes bad stuff does happen... We have lived this nightmare at av123 - and have learned the hard way which carriers do "what" better... There is really an art to this... :)

I know not having your sub is really upsetting - but I'm sure they'll take great care of you... We have eaten something like 40K in product last year (all as "write downs") due to denied freight claims - but we have taken that data and become better at what we are doing - my guess is so will they...

All the best...

mls

My experience is that eD is not reacting as av123 does. Perhaps they will, in time.

My experience is that eD is not reacting as av123 does. Perhaps they will, in time.

I appreciate that... but lets give them time...

I hear that they are very good people - making some really superb products...

That said --- without YOU we are no where (and we honour that)...

Hoping for a positive result...

Mark

Alex and I are the only ones posting on here that work at eD.

And I'll agree with Mark...shipping damage sucks, but you learn from it and make modifications to packaging.

Luckily, everytime we've had something damaged that has been picked up by FedEx, we've had the claim honored, but we still try to make it so we don't have to file claims because that whole process is no fun for everyone involved.

I saw that ed sub A7-450, and yes the box demensions are to my liking. I may be totally wrong in saying this, but I think Epik uses better quality drivers and amps. ......

Based on ...... ?

Alex and I are the only ones posting on here that work at eD.

And I'll agree with Mark...shipping damage sucks, but you learn from it and make modifications to packaging.

Luckily, everytime we've had something damaged that has been picked up by FedEx, we've had the claim honored, but we still try to make it so we don't have to file claims because that whole process is no fun for everyone involved.

Good stuff Chris...

I've not spent a ton on time on your site to look at "how" you pack... but we have found that the "SUPER TUB" designs seem t work best for these big bad-boy subs... As well, places for "GRIP" seems to really help the guys hauling these babies around... Perhaps you guys have thought of all that already - and please accept my apologies if you have...

I would be more than glad to share some packing ideas off line with you guys if you are interested... We are building for 33 companies now - and we have learned the SUPER Hard Way... :o

Please greet your team from us - and know that we are mightily respecting what you guys are doing... I hear nothing but really good stuff...

All the best...

mls

mlsav123@mac.com

Based on ...... ?

based on physics.

both are excellent drivers and the subwoofer systems have been tweaked/design to maximize the performance of that driver/amp combination. However, in terms of pure driver statistics, the facts are simple:

the eD driver found on the A7-450 is a derivative of the 19Ov.2 :
http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=37
the specs are: Qts: .369, Fs: 26 Hz, Xmax: 22 mm, and weights around 42 lbs, with a motor of 4.4"x7.4". The retail price of this driver is $195.00

the Conquest driver, for example, has a similar Q, the Fs is closer to 20hz, the Xmax is in the mid to high 30mm's ( 37mm is the rumor), and a motor magnet that weighs well in excess of 70lbs with a triple stacked magnet of 6"x10". The COST price of this driver is more than double the eD. Some additional info:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12107370&postcount=1184


So whether or not the subwoofer system itself is better on one vs the other, is of course debatable and highly dependent on how the overall system was integrated (how the amp was matched, sensitivity, tuning point, etc, etc). But in terms of 290-16K's comment on better driver parts, yes, that appears to be clearly the case.

But in terms of 290-16K's comment on better driver parts, yes, that appears to be clearly the case.

Anybody have driver info on the MWF-15s?

I know I will get in some trouble answering for Chad - but I'll stick my toe in anyways...

Shipping these big brutes is not a simple task... We all test and re-test (and I'm sure they did too) - but sometimes bad stuff does happen... We have lived this nightmare at av123 - and have learned the hard way which carriers do "what" better... There is really an art to this... :)

I know not having your sub is really upsetting - but I'm sure they'll take great care of you... We have eaten something like 40K in product last year (all as "write downs") due to denied freight claims - but we have taken that data and become better at what we are doing - my guess is so will they...

All the best...

mls yes i am being taken care of. and i know its not their fault.
like you said its just tough to deal with.
in the end i will just be more happy when my sub finally arives.

Here is what we have found to be true, with a lot of consistency, in terms of subwoofer performance, in order of importance:

1. Get a linear response from 25 Hz all the way through the crossover to the mains. Once this is achieved, a very enjoyable movie/music experience will be had.

2. After "1." is achieved, get that bass response to 20 Hz.

3. 16 Hz is next

4. Anything below 16 Hz is going to fall under the "if you can afford it, go for it", as long as numbers 1-2-3 are met.

Craigsub, is an external equalizer required to achive the linear response from 25Hz to the crossover of the mains? About how much lower do you think the Castle's score would be had you not used an EQ?

Anybody have driver info on the MWF-15s?

The driver I had built for the MFW-15 is a 2.5" VC driver that looks relatively pedestrian from the backside in todays world of huge, flashy magnet/motor systems of the car audio world. Instead the driver was carefully optimized for the intended use with its specific amplifier and enclosure, while also optimizing its operation through measurements on a Klippel (http://www.klippel.de/) system allowing for both measurable and audible refinements. By focusing our efforts on details which made clear improvements for the user, we were able to incorporate features such as the separately mounted control panel on the back and the cosmetic details which make it a little easier to gain acceptance in real living spaces.

IMO we are after the end result you experience and the net value, not just a showcase of cool hardware that lives out of sight. I in fact had samples of somewhat more visually impressive drivers and related parts that would have really pushed the budget of the MFW-15. Ironically those efforts didn't perform as well nor sound as good as what is shipping daily in the production MFW-15.

'Hats Off' Mark,

Great intra-industry sportsmanship here! Fine example of why you get so much of my money; really top-notch respect!

Larry

Good stuff Chris...

I've not spent a ton on time on your site to look at "how" you pack... but we have found that the "SUPER TUB" designs seem t work best for these big bad-boy subs... As well, places for "GRIP" seems to really help the guys hauling these babies around... Perhaps you guys have thought of all that already - and please accept my apologies if you have...

I would be more than glad to share some packing ideas off line with you guys if you are interested... We are building for 33 companies now - and we have learned the SUPER Hard Way... :o

Please greet your team from us - and know that we are mightily respecting what you guys are doing... I hear nothing but really good stuff...

All the best...

mls

mlsav123@mac.com

How can a subwoofer (PB13) sound more powerful than another sub (2 MFW15) even though the output is actually less like in Craig's result?

How can a subwoofer (PB13) sound more powerful than another sub (2 MFW15) even though the output is actually less like in Craig's result?

You need to be more specific. This is far too simplistic a statement to answer.

Mark Seaton correctly points out the "be careful about the graphs" thing, too. The Ultra, in the listening portions, was picked consistently as delivering more "I can feel it" bass than did the MFW-15 pair, while the graph shows the opposite. I even mentioned yesterday, after the listening tests, that the Ultra was delivering a more powerful deep bass.

I am pretty sure that is a limitation of the Tef microphone, M-Audio Sound Card, the TrueRTA, or all 3.



You said that in your (assuming a blind test) test that the Ultra is consistently picked as delivering a more powerful bass than 2 MFW15s although the graphs show the opposite.

Also, in your post about how no subs are perfect, you said that the PB13 could have more bass slam that's presented on the MFW15. But even with 2 MFW15s the PB13 still delivered a more powerful bass. Did you actually meant the bass slam presented on the Castle?

You said that in your (assuming a blind test) test that the Ultra is consistently picked as delivering a more powerful bass than 2 MFW15s although the graphs show the opposite.

Also, in your post about how no subs are perfect, you said that the PB13 could have more bass slam that's presented on the MFW15. But even with 2 MFW15s the PB13 still delivered a more powerful bass. Did you actually meant the bass slam presented on the Castle?

No .. I also posted subsequent graphs. You need to look at those.

On the WOTW scene, using a more refined setting for the TrueRTA measurements ....

Dual MFW-15's:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/MFW-15DualsWOTWSlow.jpg

PB13-Ultra:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SVSUltraWOTWSlow.jpg

Look at the bass levels in the 13-17 Hz range for each.

And, since you paraphrased rather than using what I actually posted, I took the time to find this from the listening impressions ...

The duals are doing quite well ... the impressions so far, under blind tests, are matching what they were previously:

The Ultra (in 15 Hz tuning) does go deeper, but the MFW-15's are giving a solid 16 Hz in room response and a slam factor that is reminding a few of the guys of the big Genelec sub....

and

The "wish list" ... or compromise, of each the subs would be as follows ..

MFW-15's ... Give them the Ultra's or Castle's 13-16 Hz Strength

Castle ... Give it the upper bass (40-80 Hz) articulation of the MFW-15's

Ultra-13 ... Give it the bass slam of the MFW-15's

Any of these subwoofers blows away what we had available a year ago ... Ed Mullen's crew, Chad Kuyper's guys and Mark Seaton/Schifter have raised the bar, again.


It would help if you quoted, rather than paraphrased, so I know what point you are trying to make ... :)

Good stuff Chris...

I've not spent a ton on time on your site to look at "how" you pack... but we have found that the "SUPER TUB" designs seem t work best for these big bad-boy subs... As well, places for "GRIP" seems to really help the guys hauling these babies around... Perhaps you guys have thought of all that already - and please accept my apologies if you have...

I would be more than glad to share some packing ideas off line with you guys if you are interested... We are building for 33 companies now - and we have learned the SUPER Hard Way... :o

Please greet your team from us - and know that we are mightily respecting what you guys are doing... I hear nothing but really good stuff...

All the best...

mls

mlsav123@mac.com

I would like to commend you on your great spirit shown above! Super post!

- nikbert

After reading the rankings thread from what I can tell is the most musical sub the Epik Valor with the HSU VTF 3.3 coming in next? Crazy output not required, just tight and accurate bass for 2ch music only system. Any thoughts on the SVS SB12?

After reading the rankings thread from what I can tell is the most musical sub the Epik Valor with the HSU VTF 3.3 coming in next? Crazy output not required, just tight and accurate bass for 2ch music only system. Any thoughts on the SVS SB12?

The Valor scored 47 points for music, and quite a few subs were ahead of it.

Do you mean it is the most musical of the $600ish subs ?

If so, then yes ... it is a tremendous value subwoofer. I would actually have scored it higher, but some of the other panel members were not as impressed.

If you want to spend $600 on a sub, and want tight, clean bass, it is an excellent choice.

Isn't the mfw-15 the same price and more musical as the valor? Alright, the valor is $51 cheaper. He did not mention whether he would wait or not.

Isn't the mfw-15 the same price and more musical as the valor? Alright, the valor is $51 cheaper. He did not mention whether he would wait or not.

True, but he did not ask about the MFW-15. :)

No .. I also posted subsequent graphs. You need to look at those.

On the WOTW scene, using a more refined setting for the TrueRTA measurements ....

Dual MFW-15's:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/MFW-15DualsWOTWSlow.jpg

PB13-Ultra:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SVSUltraWOTWSlow.jpg

Look at the bass levels in the 13-17 Hz range for each.



Craig,

I noticed when you posted the WOTW comparison charts and included the Epik Castle, there was no Peak or Avg SPL posted. In all other WOTW graphs for other subs it was there. Do you have that comparison with the numbers for the Castle for comparison to the MFW-15's and Ultra?

Mike

Yes indeed, I did make a mistake and have repeatedly acknowledged it in the continuing thread. I had never had a damaged shipment from anyone before and I thought the photos would be proof enough. The quoted post did not mention that I immediately e-mailed eD and asked them what to do, but I didn't receive a response until several weeks and repeated tries. Hence my advice to all to read all the posts so that they don't make the same mistake I made.

Do you work for eD? It seems you are taking umbrage to reasonable advice.
Nope do not work for them but if they are hiring I might be interested. I'd just have to leave sunny FLA. Oh and another thing why did you not ever call them? You do have a telephone don't you? My first choice would always be the phone not email. And your post made it sound like everything they were shipping was getting damaged and they were doing nothing. You remind me of the chicken little story.

Sorry if this one is pretty basic but I'm having a hell of a time navigating all the info in this thread..

is there some place I can read about all the testing procedures used and then read each sub's review without having to wade through all 202 pages for the 3 Subs I'm interested in?

I see the summary and that helps but I'm having trouble interpreting the info in it.

Sorry if this one is pretty basic but I'm having a hell of a time navigating all the info in this thread..

is there some place I can read about all the testing procedures used and then read each sub's review without having to wade through all 202 pages for the 3 Subs I'm interested in?

I see the summary and that helps but I'm having trouble interpreting the info in it.

Maybe do a "search this thread" option on the right and just filter out the info on each of the subs you are interested in.

Or, if you are just interested in the postings by Craigsub..... click on his name on one of his post and choose view all posts by this person.

I was doing that and having limited success finding the Rocket X-sub... I'll keep looking though. If anyone has a guess as to about WHEN the review was posted I'll try to find it that way :)

It seems the other Two I was interested in didn't get tested :)

True, but he did not ask about the MFW-15. :)

Ohh I didn't see that the MFW-15 was more musical than either. If it's even better than the other two then that's even better. I was planning on an SB-12 which run from $600-700 anyway so I guess you can say that is my budget. I don't want a huge box though. It doesn't matter who makes it, would just like the most accuracy for the money.

I had a feeling you missed it, probably did not expect a sub that high on the list to be within the budget. It might be too large for you , I am not sure. Looks to be a great sub though. Anyone know the dimensions of the Mfw-15 compared to the valor, hsu 3.3, and SVS SB-12. It had to be mentioned already. There was a post with all the subs with their size in cubic feet, But I don't remember if the MFW-15 was reviewed yet.

If you want to see some pics of the MFW-15 in all of its beautiful glory, check here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=982165&page=4

MLS posted some shots.

Anyone know the dimensions of the Mfw-15 compared to the valor, hsu 3.3, and SVS SB-12. It had to be mentioned already. There was a post with all the subs with their size in cubic feet, But I don't remember if the MFW-15 was reviewed yet.

24H x 22.5D x 18.5W

I just ordered two MFW-15 in palisander rosa satin finish and will be here mid March. I was on the BMF-1 preorder list but once I saw how well the MFW's did in this review and others comments I could not wait.

I just ordered two MFW-15 in palisander rosa satin finish and will be here mid March. I was on the BMF-1 preorder list but once I saw how well the MFW's did in this review and others comments I could not wait.
Just ordered a pair of MFW Mohos on Monday myself and should have by Monday. It's going to be a long week...

gus6464,
the dimensions are 24H x 22.5D x 18.5W for the MFW-15, thanks lwj81

I had a feeling you missed it, probably did not expect a sub that high on the list to be within the budget. It might be too large for you , I am not sure. Looks to be a great sub though. Anyone know the dimensions of the Mfw-15 compared to the valor, hsu 3.3, and SVS SB-12. It had to be mentioned already. There was a post with all the subs with their size in cubic feet, But I don't remember if the MFW-15 was reviewed yet.

I would have to measure when I get home but I wanted to fit it in between the speaker and electronics cabinet. If it's bigger than that I could also just put it on the left of the left speaker. This is a pic of the setup.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c9/gus6464/Finalsetup.jpg

I am upgrading speakers to the ACI Sapphire XL most likely so I was also thinking about the Force XL sub.

gus6464,
the dimensions are 24H x 22.5D x 18.5W for the MFW-15, thanks lwj81

Can anyone comment on the impact of leaving one on its side? On the AV123 website they show them stacked on their side... and 24 in wide and 18.5 in high works much better for me. :)

thanks

there was a post of the av123 forum site somewhere where one of the Mark's (Seaton or Schifter) said that placing the MFW 15 on its side is fine.

Craigsub, Are you planning on testing the New PB12-NSD from SVS and adding it to the list of scores? I keep hearing from various places that it's far improved over the original release.

I doubt it will match the current champions anyway, the amp upgrade alone usually doesn't make a sub twice better.

I appreciate that... but lets give them time...

I hear that they are very good people - making some really superb products...

That said --- without YOU we are no where (and we honour that)...

Hoping for a positive result...

Mark

Everyone's confidence in eD is well-placed. We have come to a mutually agreeable conclusion. Don't make the mistake I made when the damaged sub came, and everyone except the shipping company will be happy (and why should they be happy if they are causing the problem).

Glad to see the eD situation is handled ... they are a great group of guys.

The budget shootout is going to start on February 10 ... all tests done in our basement area, as there is no way these subs handle a difficule, 4500 cubic foot room.

Then, in March or April, the first AVS "subwoofer invite" will be held. This means the panel will be made up of forum members.

Then, in March or April, the first AVS "subwoofer invite" will be held.

Will they be serving cookies and milk? :D Looking forward toward your review!



Ian

Will they be serving cookies and milk? :D Looking forward toward your review!

Ian

We will have choices for refreshments ... either:

A. Cookies and milk
B. Wings, Pizza, and Adult Beverages

It will be by vote of the panel. Anyone voting "A" will be beaten severely. :cool:

Craig,

Is there a chance of testing smaller sealed subs like the SB-12 or ACI Force XL? I know most people here care about HT and output but every once in a while you get people asking about small subs for music usage, like myself. Thanks

The SVS SB-12 would be welcome to the AVSer panel testing, for sure. As things progress, we will look into it and the ACI, plus some other smaller subs....

And they won't need to be sealed, either - but rather subs that sound great in a small package.

The budget shootout is going to start on February 10 ... all tests done in our basement area, as there is no way these subs handle a difficule, 4500 cubic foot room.

Then, in March or April, the first AVS "subwoofer invite" will be held. This means the panel will be made up of forum members.
What is the room dim in the basement area for the budget shootout?

The basement room is 44x14 feet with 7 foot ceilings. It is divided by a staircase, and is a far easier room to drive than is the upstairs room.

Obviously, it will still be a challenge.

Here is a pic from the bottom stairwell - you can see the railing post at the lower left of the picture:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/downsitting.jpg

As an example of how easy the room is to drive, here is the X-Sub delivering in excess of 107 dB @ 37 Hz in this room, at appx. 13 feet from the subwoofer:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/27.jpg

Glad to see the eD situation is handled ... they are a great group of guys.

The budget shootout is going to start on February 10 ... all tests done in our basement area, as there is no way these subs handle a difficule, 4500 cubic foot room.

Then, in March or April, the first AVS "subwoofer invite" will be held. This means the panel will be made up of forum members.

Wish I lived closer to you. I would love to be there and I would bring my ED A7S-450.

Wish I lived closer to you. I would love to be there and I would bring my ED A7S-450.

Let's call this a standing offer to the Epik and eD guys:

Anything they want here for the meet is welcome. I have contacted both companies, and they have ample time in which to respond. :)

If this is open to AVS members Craig, if possible I may be interested in coming. If nothing else to see what I can learn from the experts first hand.

I just checked, your 6.5 hours away from me :eek:

420 miles for me. Mapquest says 6hrs and 46min. to arrival. I bet I could get there in just over 5 hrs.:D

Mappoint says 13.75 hrs. So by plane it'll be. (think Yoda)

I'm more interested in the grown up subwoofers. Not the baby ones.

Glad to see the eD situation is handled ... they are a great group of guys.

The budget shootout is going to start on February 10 ... all tests done in our basement area, as there is no way these subs handle a difficule, 4500 cubic foot room.

Then, in March or April, the first AVS "subwoofer invite" will be held. This means the panel will be made up of forum members.

Thanks Craig. I'm looking forward to this, I'm looking at adding a sub for music. The room is also ~4500 cubic feet, but is open to much of the rest of the house. I'm looking for something that will suppliment the below 60hz FR of my existing towers.

I'm thus very interested in the results.

We will have choices for refreshments ... either:

A. Cookies and milk
B. Wings, Pizza, and Adult Beverages

It will be by vote of the panel. Anyone voting "A" will be beaten severely. :cool:


http://www.library.drexel.edu/blogs/thesuggestionbox/Cookies.jpg
http://sewdarncute.typepad.com/sew_darn_cute/images/2007/09/19/mkcookies.jpg

HH

Let's call this a standing offer to the Epik and eD guys:

Anything they want here for the meet is welcome. I have contacted both companies, and they have ample time in which to respond. :)

I don't see any Craig e-mails :)

Milk and Cookies sounds good to me.

Wish Craig had time to do a short review/comparison on the Cadence CSX-15....compared to the likes of VTF-1/ PB10-NSD...or even eD a2-300..al around $400 or so...

Wish Craig had time to do a short review/comparison on the Cadence CSX-15....compared to the likes of VTF-1/ PB10-NSD...or even eD a2-300..al around $400 or so...
From what I've read, isn't the Cadence on BO? Maybe Craig will be able to test out the Cadence if someone can bring one out for the budget test or "AVS invite".

Bo??

back order

Glad to see the eD situation is handled ... they are a great group of guys.

The budget shootout is going to start on February 10 ... all tests done in our basement area, as there is no way these subs handle a difficule, 4500 cubic foot room.

Then, in March or April, the first AVS "subwoofer invite" will be held. This means the panel will be made up of forum members.

thx craig. that would be awesome. i live in DC area so the drive would be ~ 5+ hours.

is the avs "sub invite" going to be higher end subs? do you have a set date yet and list of subs?

Hello:

I go away for a few weeks and this is what I come back to???? Craig hanging it up??!?!!?!

Sorry to see you end this very informative hobby Craig. You certainly have contributed to my enjoyment of subs.

Best of luck,
Splotto

Why did the list of tested subs get so short? Wasnt there a few Ed subs on there as well as av123?

Why did the list of tested subs get so short? Wasnt there a few Ed subs on there as well as av123?


You must be looking at post 1, not post 8.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136

What room are the SPL numbers for 20hz measured?

You must be looking at post 1, not post 8.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136
Yup my bad TYVM sir

What room are the SPL numbers for 20hz measured?

Jesse, there is a summary post which has been linked to in my signature, and referenced several times.

This information has been in that post for months. However, since it is YOU, I will copy/paste it here.

Measuring procedures: All measurements are taken at 2 meters/GP from the front baffle of a subwoofer. In the case of a ported sub, the microphone is placed so it is 2 meters from the center of the driver(s) and port. The posted measured results are max "clean" 20 Hz output and the average from 20 to 63 Hz. If it seemed like the amp was the limiting factor in output, "AL" is added to the 20 Hz SPL.

We will have choices for refreshments ... either:

A. Cookies and milk
B. Wings, Pizza, and Adult Beverages

It will be by vote of the panel. Anyone voting "A" will be beaten severely. :cool:

So does that mean Laserman will be there?

So does that mean Laserman will be there?

Absolutely, and he will be delivering the beatings. :D

Have the subs been picked for this test? I don't care what it goes up against but somebody needs to retest the SVS PB12-NSD! :P

Anyone have a coupon code for the Epik Conquest? At least for free shipping? I'm on the edge....

Jesse, there is a summary post which has been linked to in my signature, and referenced several times.

This information has been in that post for months. However, since it is YOU, I will copy/paste it here.

I read that before. I wasn't sure if you were measuring in one of your rooms or outside. Have you compared how much increase there is when taking them inside?

I read that before. I wasn't sure if you were measuring in one of your rooms or outside. Have you compared how much increase there is when taking them inside?

Yes, a bunch of times, in several locations. We even have a spot in the middle of our theater room that gives pretty reliable 16-25 Hz 2.5 meter measurements that match up to 2 meter GP. That's IF the door is left open.

In the corner we use for sub listening tests, it is about 6-8 dB of gain.

Have the subs been picked for this test? I don't care what it goes up against but somebody needs to retest the SVS PB12-NSD! :P

I need to get back to SVS for the amp swap out, and then let them make sure it is up to their current standards.

Not sure what will be in the next test, which will be a GTG style listening test, and, weather permitting and panel willing, will include some measurments.

can we expect the epik knight to be in the same performance category per dollar as the av123 mfw-15? craigsub - any eta on your epik knight review?

thank you!

can we expect the epik knight to be in the same performance category per dollar as the av123 mfw-15? craigsub - any eta on your epik knight review?

thank you!

These are my final two contenders as well. It almost seems from the feedback that you are flipping a coin between these two on specs, price, performance, etc.

What swung me to the AV123 offering was the Cherry finish available on the MFW-15. I ordered a pair, supposed to be delivered sometime this decade... I sort of expect them in April or May based on how popular they are right now. I'm pretty sure you can't really go wrong with any of the Epik, SVS or ED subs, and right there at the bang for the buck is the MFW-15.

What swung me to the AV123 offering was the Cherry finish available on the MFW-15. I ordered a pair, supposed to be delivered sometime this decade... I sort of expect them in April or May based on how popular they are right now. I'm pretty sure you can't really go wrong with any of the Epik, SVS or ED subs, and right there at the bang for the buck is the MFW-15.
The Cherry and Moho was available almost immediately. Don't know how the queue looks as of today. You could swing over their forum and ask or call, or maybe MLS will pop up and answer. My Mohos are tracked to arrive this Weds.

can we expect the epik knight to be in the same performance category per dollar as the av123 mfw-15? craigsub - any eta on your epik knight review?

thank you!

No word from Chad yet about the Knight ..

They are all comparable overall performers ... not identical ... but comparable.

They are all so good that someone asking me which is the "best" is just going to have to figure it out on his own, based on what is more important.

Mark Seaton correctly points out the "be careful about the graphs" thing, too. The Ultra, in the listening portions, was picked consistently as delivering more "I can feel it" bass than did the MFW-15 pair, while the graph shows the opposite. I even mentioned yesterday, after the listening tests, that the Ultra was delivering a more powerful deep bass.

I am pretty sure that is a limitation of the Tef microphone, M-Audio Sound Card, the TrueRTA, or all 3.

This will be reflected in the summary of the MFW-15 pair.

For our 4500 cubic foot room ... 2 Ultras, 4 MFW-15's, or 2 Castles would all be terrific choices for close to bass nirvana ... with 4, 8 and 4 absolutely doing it.

This is a pretty good quote ... When you consider we are talking $1000 to $1500, all are remarkable performers.

The "wish list" ... or compromise, of each the subs would be as follows ..

MFW-15's ... Give them the Ultra's or Castle's 13-16 Hz Strength

Castle ... Give it the upper bass (40-80 Hz) articulation of the MFW-15's

Ultra-13 ... Give it the bass slam of the MFW-15's

Any of these subwoofers blows away what we had available a year ago ... Ed Mullen's crew, Chad Kuyper's guys and Mark Seaton/Schifter have raised thae bar, again.

And let's not forget the eD guys ... that a7-900 is terrific.

Craig,

Just for my own clarification (just trying to get my hands around the terminology here, nothing sinister I assure you):

You mentioned that the compromise for the PB13 is that it doesn't have the "bass slam" of the MFW-15 pair. But, you also mentioned that the PB13 has more "I can feel it" bass than the MFW-15 pair. I am assuming you mean that the MFW-15's have more of that "feel it in the chest" 40Hz and up type bass while the PB13 has the "feel it in the walls, couch and inside my head" type of subsonic bass (<20Hz)?

So, what I am interpreting here is that the PB13 excels in the subsonic regions and the MFW-15's do well in the upper bass regions. How do the MFW-15's and PB13 compare in the previously unmentioned low bass region (20 to 40Hz)? Judging from the graphs it looks like they both perform quite adequately in that area. However, it was mentioned above to "be careful about the graphs", so what are the "real world" impressions?

Thanks for all of your hard work!

I'm pretty sure you can't really go wrong with any of the Epik, SVS or ED subs, and right there at the bang for the buck is the MFW-15.
Why is svs always mentioned alongside epik and ED? It doesn't seem like it matches them in performance except for the pb13 ultra. Yet people still talk about svs like it's one of the best choices. Inert judgement it seems.

Craig,

Just for my own clarification (just trying to get my hands around the terminology here, nothing sinister I assure you):

You mentioned that the compromise for the PB13 is that it doesn't have the "bass slam" of the MFW-15 pair. But, you also mentioned that the PB13 has more "I can feel it" bass than the MFW-15 pair. I am assuming you mean that the MFW-15's have more of that "feel it in the chest" 40Hz and up type bass while the PB13 has the "feel it in the walls, couch and inside my head" type of subsonic bass (<20Hz)?

So, what I am interpreting here is that the PB13 excels in the subsonic regions and the MFW-15's do well in the upper bass regions. How do the MFW-15's and PB13 compare in the previously unmentioned low bass region (20 to 40Hz)? Judging from the graphs it looks like they both perform quite adequately in that area. However, it was mentioned above to "be careful about the graphs", so what are the "real world" impressions?

Thanks for all of your hard work!

I think this is a great question. Maybe it's because it pertains more to what I am thinking:)

I have dual PB-13U's for the front stage, that I plan on being the more "musical/linear" and I hesitate to say better sound. I have martin logan asents-i's mains - that I LOVE, but IMO lack good lows.

I have ordered dual (when they get here-March?) MFW-15's co-located and centered to the front ultras - on the rear wall (as of now with the Harmon white papers study for placement) for the extra SPL and overall power I think the room (6800 c/f) will need. I like real loud bass on the H/T and tight/musical bass on 2 channel. If I had my choice, 2 channel would be a priority. Do I have this backwards?? Are the mfw's more of the "musical" sub?? .................Craig?

Why is svs always mentioned alongside epik and ED? It doesn't seem like it matches them in performance except for the pb13 ultra. Yet people still talk about svs like it's one of the best choices. Inert judgement it seems.

Because it is still one of the best choices. For the record, so is Hsu. While Epik and eD are the news kids on the block, and attracting much well-deserved attention, SVS and Hsu keep plugging away, offering excellent products at pretty competitive prices. Epik and eD make superb products, but they aren't for everyone. They're quite large, and both companies have HUGE lead times right now. Also, as far as eD is concerned, they only one finish - rough, durable black. SVS and Hsu both have much more aesthetically attractive subs, IMO. In addition, SVS and Hsu both have tried and true products that work well and continue to receive improvements. The new PB12-NSD is a considerable step up from the old one. Hsu has made improvements on the VTF-3 MK3 over the course of its lifetime. Do they offer as much performance for the dollar as Epik and eD? Not quite, but their products ship quickly and both SVS and Hsu are renowned for their customer service. I can vouch for SVS's service, as they have responded extremely promptly to any e-mail I've sent them, and I've heard great things about Hsu as well. I know the guys at eD and Epik are great people with great companies, but there's no reason to completely ignore and disregard SVS, Hsu, and other quality manufacturers whose products are more than capable and whose maturity allow them to serve their customers perfectly.

Because it is still one of the best choices. For the record, so is Hsu. While Epik and eD are the news kids on the block, and attracting much well-deserved attention, SVS and Hsu keep plugging away, offering excellent products at pretty competitive prices. Epik and eD make superb products, but they aren't for everyone. They're quite large, and both companies have HUGE lead times right now. Also, as far as eD is concerned, they only one finish - rough, durable black. SVS and Hsu both have much more aesthetically attractive subs, IMO. In addition, SVS and Hsu both have tried and true products that work well and continue to receive improvements. The new PB12-NSD is a considerable step up from the old one. Hsu has made improvements on the VTF-3 MK3 over the course of its lifetime. Do they offer as much performance for the dollar as Epik and eD? Not quite, but their products ship quickly and both SVS and Hsu are renowned for their customer service. I can vouch for SVS's service, as they have responded extremely promptly to any e-mail I've sent them, and I've heard great things about Hsu as well. I know the guys at eD and Epik are great people with great companies, but there's no reason to completely ignore and disregard SVS, Hsu, and other quality manufacturers whose products are more than capable and whose maturity allow them to serve their customers perfectly.

Very well said. There is proven long term reliability with SVS and HSU and thousands of happy customers.

Epik's lead times are not "huge". I don't get the "aesthetically pleasing" thing either, to me it seems all the subs under $1k are same "ugly" black, including the svs and the hsu. You could argue that it looks better than rough ED paint but not better than epik's smooth black. The sizes look comparable too. Unless you have a driver size limit instead of the box one. SVS also had problems with the amps. People have reported negative experiences with customer support with HSU iirc. I dont see anything there except that they're older kids on the block.

Cabo-

Do you have a wife or girlfriend? Not intended as a flame or slam, but this will definitely give me and others better perspective on your point-of-view.

No, none.

No, none.

Then you don't understand or don't care. Not all black is the same. Some ppl would rather have something nice or spend a little extra for something nicer. Some ppl don't care but IME/IMO they are the minority. JME/JMO

Hello Craig:
I a new member and I would like to see the detail data's (like the frequency response curve and the THD curve) obtained by your tests of the AV123-MFW-15 and the Hsu VTF-3 HO.
Thanks

Hello Craig:
I a new member and I would like to see the detail data's (like the frequency response curve and the THD curve) obtained by your tests of the AV123-MFW-15 and the Hsu VTF-3 HO.
Thanks

Ah...the FR curves have been posted earlier in the thread...haven't seen a THD curve...why would a "new" member need to see these? ;)

Hi Hectic1:
I was discouraged for paging more than 200 pages to find the FR graphs of these subwoofers. I think the THD graphs are also very interesting for comparison purpose.
Craig:
I think that if the first page of the present thread contained the graphs of each tested subwoofer, a new member like me would find them much more easily.
Thanks.

No, none.OK, then I can completely understand your point-of-view. You want performance, plain and simple. I can respect that.

I, on the other hand, have to make compromises. My toys are electronics and golf clubs. Hers are clothes and furniture. Since she spends so much time and effort decorating our house so that it feels like a home, I have to respect that. it is important to her that our house look a certain way and so I get her input on that 24x20x18 inch box that will be taking up residence in her living room. If I had a man cave like Craig or no lady in the house then I would probably feel the same way you do.

Epik's lead times are not "huge"..

I just called Epik today to get an idea of lead times for a castle or tower and they are roughly a month or two.:eek: I was told that the number of orders has grown exponentionally within the last 2 months and that they would post the approx lead times on their website by the end of the week.

They didn't even seem interested to get an order form me, so I didn't order. I guess I'll wait for their blog.

All you guys who ordered before the backup are lucky!

madtexan,

Unless you're subless, waiting for backlogs to die down might not be a bad thing. There is always something better coming out or new information you want to fully consider that the benefit of time favors.

Even after you get a new sub, you'll still be reading these threads and if you're like most of us, will be thinking about upgrading.

madtexan,

Unless you're subless, waiting for backlogs to die down might not be a bad thing. There is always something better coming out or new information you want to fully consider that the benefit of time favors.

Even after you get a new sub, you'll still be reading these threads and if you're like most of us, will be thinking about upgrading.

Jim,

I agree about something new coming out all the time and that's one reason I am subless..... Now that I just got my 6 berkline HT chairs, all I need is a sub to complete my system. The bad thing moving forward is any new sub coming out won't be reviewed by Craigsub for an even comparison to existing models.

I'll wait and see what Epik blogs about the order status. Hopefully it won't be too bad.

I just called Epik today to get an idea of lead times for a castle or tower and they are roughly a month or two.:eek: I was told that the number of orders has grown exponentionally within the last 2 months and that they would post the approx lead times on their website by the end of the week.

They didn't even seem interested to get an order form me, so I didn't order. I guess I'll wait for their blog.

All you guys who ordered before the backup are lucky!

I guess when ED raised their prices to get rid of exessive demand they "doomed" Epik

I just called Epik today to get an idea of lead times for a castle or tower and they are roughly a month or two.:eek: I was told that the number of orders has grown exponentionally within the last 2 months and that they would post the approx lead times on their website by the end of the week.

They didn't even seem interested to get an order form me, so I didn't order. I guess I'll wait for their blog.

All you guys who ordered before the backup are lucky!

Interesting. I ordered an MFW-15 from AV123 yesterday and felt the same thing. They were polite, but seemed rushed like they wanted me to either order the sub at once, no questions, or get off the phone. Almost like they simply didn't care if I ordered or not. I did, and hope that as a replacement for my Infinity HPS1000 I will notice an improvement, but I was just a little disconcerted about the treatment. Not bad. Not good. Just an indifference about whether I bought from them or not. By the way, the moho is still in stock.

I like the score list so much. By any chance can a score be put on a commercial sub or subs? e.g. The Klipsch THX Ultra2 system is regarded very good one. If the duo subs in that system are evaluated the same way as the ones we saw here, what score can they get?

http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/kw-120-thx.aspx

I was just going over the summary on page 1 and found myself asking what exactly Craig means by "palpable" in his discriptions of bass.

Who wants to take a shot at this? :)

I was just going over the summary on page 1 and found myself asking what exactly Craig means by "palpable" in his discriptions of bass.

Who wants to take a shot at this? :)

Palpable ... As you one can feel it.

There will be further subwoofer tests, but under a different format. The guys who have volunteered efforts to come here to do the tests have been quiet lurkers in reading the threads, and after seeing some of the asinine comments by a select few people here, have asked not to continue.

So ... In the future, the listening tests will be handled by members of this and other forums who wish to attend.

Measurements will still be a part of the tests, but without a proper listening evaluation to go with them, measurements don't mean much.

Interesting. I ordered an MFW-15 from AV123 yesterday and felt the same thing. They were polite, but seemed rushed like they wanted me to either order the sub at once, no questions, or get off the phone. Almost like they simply didn't care if I ordered or not. I did, and hope that as a replacement for my Infinity HPS1000 I will notice an improvement, but I was just a little disconcerted about the treatment. Not bad. Not good. Just an indifference about whether I bought from them or not. By the way, the moho is still in stock.

Hmmm...must be growing pains and the fact that they are becoming more busy. This is a good thing for them but if they interact with customers over the phone then it needs to be a good experience. It makes it that much more fun when the company at least acts excited about getting your business and shares your enthusiasm about their product. Hopefully you just caught someone on an off moment and this is not the norm. I was planning on ordering but I might do it online if I'm going to get the same amount of personality.

I had almost the same feeling when i called av123 yesterday. The total call last only about 1 minute.

I had almost the same feeling when i called av123 yesterday. The total call last only about 1 minute.

Not doubting your experience, but it sounds like an anomaly. They have always been great to work with when I called. I think you can chalk it up to being extremely busy with orders and getting out a ton of shipments to customers. They are known for exceptional CS and I believe they plan on ramping up the Sales dept. in the near future.

Dont let this experience be taint your purchase. You will be taken care of.

Craigsub?

Have you done any listening of the HGS-12's and have an opinion vs the MFW-15?

How about the Bag End ELF 18?

The cabinet, size, and potentially the servo design is slick but I can accomodate the MFW-15. I have 2 of them, one at either end of the wide DR\LR combination room maybe 24' wide and a bag end ELF18 in back of the listening position. I also have a cathedral ceiling and its open to the large kitchen giving me probably an effective room size of over 4,000 CF. The Bag End seems to overheat quickly and never integrated well with the HGS-12's or the woofers from my NHT 3.3's.

Thinking about replacing the ELF18 with the MFW-15 I guess and possibly the HGS-12's.

Thoughts?

Larry

I know that there are bigger and uglier subs out there, but, I still receive excellent customer service from SVS even after all of these years.


No, I do not work for them or get free junk for saying that. What I do get is a good product and a company that backs it up. That's getting harder and harder to find these days.

Not doubting your experience, but it sounds like an anomaly. They have always been great to work with when I called. I think you can chalk it up to being extremely busy with orders and getting out a ton of shipments to customers. They are known for exceptional CS and I believe they plan on ramping up the Sales dept. in the near future.

Dont let this experience be taint your purchase. You will be taken care of.

I never meant to imply that the experience was unpleasant. I have no doubt, based on input here, that the experience will be fine. I was just commenting on the statement that, right now, these guys seem to want to be on and off the phone as quickly as possible. They are busy, have tons of orders in the hopper, and can afford to rush through a call as there is another on the line waiting to order!

My main concern/hope is that this sub sounds superior to my Infinity HPS1000 which has served me well for many years.

I like the score list so much. By any chance can a score be put on a commercial sub or subs? e.g. The Klipsch THX Ultra2 system is regarded very good one. If the duo subs in that system are evaluated the same way as the ones we saw here, what score can they get?

http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/kw-120-thx.aspx

One of my high end stores here has two of these subs in the main theater room and these things slam very hard. I was very impressed.

Sorry all... we never want you to feel rushed while on the line with us. I will talk to the guys about it. I know they are feeling enormous pressure to help everyone and they are worried about not getting to everyone as fast as they expect (you know how that is). We are here to help in all ways of sound so don't feel like you can't ask questions or get set up advice. If anyone rushes you, email me (sean@**********) with the details and I will take them out back and 'have a talk' with them :D

Sean

Sorry all... we never want you to feel rushed while on the line with us. I will talk to the guys about it. I know they are feeling enormous pressure to help everyone and they are worried about not getting to everyone as fast as they expect (you know how that is). We are here to help in all ways of sound so don't feel like you can't ask questions or get set up advice. If anyone rushes you, email me (sean@**********) with the details and I will take them out back and 'have a talk' with them :D

Sean


Thanks for chiming in Sean. You really do care. :)

Seriously though, you guys have ALWAYS been top notch in the service department and spending time to answer questions. Keep up the good work. Now where I my dual MFW-15's?!?!?!?!?!?:confused:

Not doubting your experience, but it sounds like an anomaly. They have always been great to work with when I called. I think you can chalk it up to being extremely busy with orders and getting out a ton of shipments to customers. They are known for exceptional CS and I believe they plan on ramping up the Sales dept. in the near future.

Dont let this experience be taint your purchase. You will be taken care of.

I sent an email 5 days ago requesting shipping costs, brokerage fees, duties etc( Canada). I have not gotten a reply stating they got my request, nothing. I was really excited about ordering a MFW-15 and a set of 850's...not so excited now, If this is how I am going to be treated, I will look else where.

For those of you who keep saying they are great people, perhaps so but their are way too many folks speaking up about this very subject on many different forums. They need to hire more reps and or automate alot more, at least an auto reply to my quote request saying thank you for your interest etc would have been nice.

MLS are you listening?

Regards, Chris

I sent an email 5 days ago requesting shipping costs, brokerage fees, duties etc( Canada). I have not gotten a reply stating they got my request, nothing. I was really excited about ordering a MFW-15 and a set of 850's...not so excited now, If this is how I am going to be treated, I will look else where.

For those of you who keep saying they are great people, perhaps so but their are way too many folks speaking up about this very subject on many different forums. They need to hire more reps and or automate alot more, at least an auto reply to my quote request saying thank you for your interest etc would have been nice.

MLS are you listening?

Regards, Chris

I don't work for the company and was one of the posters that commented on how the experience as just a little rushed. But did you ever consider simply picking up the phone? Frankly, try and consider the number of emails that all of us get on a daily basis and then multiply that by a factor when its a business and it happens. To all of us. I sent an email to Epik a month ago. Nothing back. But if you call, great folk.

One of my high end stores here has two of these subs in the main theater room and these things slam very hard. I was very impressed.

This system was highly praised by almost everyone. That's why I wonder how their dual subs will score compared with these internet direct or brick and motar subs.

Craigsub, do you guys have a chance to evaluate them? Thanks.

I sent an email 5 days ago requesting shipping costs, brokerage fees, duties etc( Canada). I have not gotten a reply stating they got my request, nothing. I was really excited about ordering a MFW-15 and a set of 850's...not so excited now, If this is how I am going to be treated, I will look else where.

For those of you who keep saying they are great people, perhaps so but their are way too many folks speaking up about this very subject on many different forums. They need to hire more reps and or automate alot more, at least an auto reply to my quote request saying thank you for your interest etc would have been nice.

MLS are you listening?

Regards, Chris
I don't understand this attitude..."If this is how I am going to be treated, I will look else where." Your email could have been lost in the mix, maybe undeliverable back to you, etc. It takes far much more time to type up and reply to a series of question by email than answering direct on the phone. You could have called, while not impossible, I doubt they deliberately not reply to you.

Interesting. I ordered an MFW-15 from AV123 yesterday and felt the same thing. They were polite, but seemed rushed like they wanted me to either order the sub at once, no questions, or get off the phone. Almost like they simply didn't care if I ordered or not. I did, and hope that as a replacement for my Infinity HPS1000 I will notice an improvement, but I was just a little disconcerted about the treatment. Not bad. Not good. Just an indifference about whether I bought from them or not. By the way, the moho is still in stock.

Gosh... I really apologize for this... Allow me a brief moment to characterize what's going on - and how we are changing this... I also want to apologize for clogging this thread with this data - but I DO feel that this is important...

First... We have been entertaining serious VIP visitors from China... no excuse really - but several of us have been "involved" with them over the last few days - and prior to that - preparing for their visit by getting samples ready, drawings, etc.

Second... I'm the last 7 days we have had FOUR 40 foot High Cube Sea Containers arrive... When this happens "some" of the office staff go out into the warehouse to "direct traffic"... In order to help with this - even though we have an enormous warehouse, we had to install a mobile 40 footer just for product movement...

Third... In the history of our company - and including Christmas - we have NEVER had such a large outbound freight movement over such a compressed period of time... Yesterday alone over 170 Rockets left to the their new homes... (about 35 pallets worth)... We had Yellow Freight in our yard all day with TWO 48-footers for outbound...

Fourth... I got sick... :)

That said... we are making some important changes to help with "process control and flow"... Kyle is being moved to Customer Care Manager and out of his Admin duties... That way if there are issues - you can turn to Customer Care and not have to wait for your salesperson to get back to you... Most of our sales guys get between 70 and 90 sales e-mails per day (4 guys sharing that load - so it can be well over 300 e-mails per day)... PLUS Voice Mail...

We have a new Admin person (Kim) who is just great... We love her...

In a day or two we will be announcing and incredible new hire (Mark J. is what I will call him for this moment) and he will take over Tech Services...

As well, it looks like we will add some sales staff as we need this very badly... and we know that... Look for some news on that front next week after our Utah Get Together this weekend...

We DO realize that we needed loads of improvement in some areas like order tracking and verification... A new system has gone into place that allows for this... You'll like it...

I recognize that with growth comes a greater responsibility to all of you... Since Thanksgiving we have NOT done a great job - look for REAL improvement in these areas soon...

I do apologize to any of you that felt you received a "bums rush"... :o

Most sincerely...

mls

I can understand how some may have felt rushed on the phone with AV123. Considering the amount of praise and the score the MFW got from Craig's testing. Coupled with everyone wanting to get in on the list for one before the backlog got too long AND MLS offered something like up to 10% off on their products for a week. Some people started posting they weren't able to get through to a sales rep, or were just able to leave VMs. Now I'm just referring to the MFW rush, this is not even including discussion of their other line of products they carry. One can't please everyone all the time.

I sent an email 5 days ago requesting shipping costs, brokerage fees, duties etc( Canada). I have not gotten a reply stating they got my request, nothing. I was really excited about ordering a MFW-15 and a set of 850's...not so excited now, If this is how I am going to be treated, I will look else where.

For those of you who keep saying they are great people, perhaps so but their are way too many folks speaking up about this very subject on many different forums. They need to hire more reps and or automate alot more, at least an auto reply to my quote request saying thank you for your interest etc would have been nice.

MLS are you listening?

Regards, Chris

I am... and I have...

I would love to know more about your 5 day comment... Please feel free to reply here - or to my own e-mail

mlsav123@mac.com

Lots of stuff in process for sure... We have a current back order of just over 400 MFW-15's... Containers are arriving on time (except when US Customs gets overly aggressive :) )... and we are carefully making sure that lead times are disclosed at the time of purchase...

I'm here too... :)

Do let me know about this...

Thanks Kindly...

mls

I can understand how some may have felt rushed on the phone with AV123. Considering the amount of praise and the score the MFW got from Craig's testing. Coupled with everyone wanting to get in on the list for one before the backlog got too long AND MLS offered something like up to 10% off on their products for a week. Some people started posting they weren't able to get through to a sales rep, or were just able to leave VMs. Now I'm just referring to the MFW rush, this is not even including discussion of their other line of products they carry. One can't please everyone all the time.

This is really the case...

Our new encore versions of the "x-series" are REALLY blowing people away - and we have just begun shipping x-statik and information on our new Reference Class Mini Monitor has garnered lots of interest (ELT 525)...

and LS... :cool:

and Rockets shipping like never before... :cool::cool:

etc.

Many thanks...

mls

Sorry all... we never want you to feel rushed while on the line with us. I will talk to the guys about it. I know they are feeling enormous pressure to help everyone and they are worried about not getting to everyone as fast as they expect (you know how that is). We are here to help in all ways of sound so don't feel like you can't ask questions or get set up advice. If anyone rushes you, email me (sean@**********) with the details and I will take them out back and 'have a talk' with them :D

Sean

I did not feel bad at all. Just feel you guys were too busy to talk more. That's perfectly fine. Focus on the product quality and don't let it go down while rushing out orders.

and LS... :cool:


LOL, I saw the LS-9 pic, unreal! I think you need another model though....the LS-18, make it wider so you CAN'T hug it no matter how you try.

It would be interesting to see how dual stacked MFW-15's would perform next to the A7-900 in terms of overall slam factor. A hypothesis will be formulated soon. ;)

--Regards,

I am... and I have...

I would love to know more about your 5 day comment... Please feel free to reply here - or to my own e-mail

mlsav123@mac.com

Lots of stuff in process for sure... We have a current back order of just over 400 MFW-15's... Containers are arriving on time (except when US Customs gets overly aggressive :) )... and we are carefully making sure that lead times are disclosed at the time of purchase...

I'm here too... :)

Do let me know about this...

Thanks Kindly...

mls

Mark, Thank you for taking the time to respond to my little rant, it amazes me that you and Sean have the energy and time of day to respond to all of our complaints and questions, VERY impressive! You have just made me feel much more confident in ordering your fine speakers. I apologise if I came across poorly. I think i was impatient because i wanted to order the 850's ASAP to get in que. (I like my present speakers but the brightness at volume..:eek:)

I sent the email for a quote because i knew how busy you all are ( I also frequent the AV123 forum almost every day), I thought it would save tieing up your phone lines/ sales reps etc.

Once again my sincere thanks,

Chris

Mark, Thank you for taking the time to respond to my little rant, it amazes me that you and Sean have the energy and time of day to respond to all of our complaints and questions, VERY impressive! You have just made me feel much more confident in ordering your fine speakers. I apologise if I came across poorly. I think i was impatient because i wanted to order the 850's ASAP to get in que. (I like my present speakers but the brightness at volume..:eek:)

I sent the email for a quote because i knew how busy you all are ( I also frequent the AV123 forum almost every day), I thought it would save tieing up your phone lines/ sales reps etc.

Once again my sincere thanks,

Chris

Hey Chris... thanks for your reply...

We know one thing... without you - we are nothing...

I'm pretty much out for Utah and our GTG there... Excited about that for sure...

Hugs...

mls

Hey Chris... thanks for your reply...

We know one thing... without you - we are nothing...

I'm pretty much out for Utah and our GTG there... Excited about that for sure...

Hugs...

mls


Have a GREAT time MLS.... after what you've been through the last six weeks, you deserve a little R & R. Don't over-do it and get yourself sick again.

Wish I could have been there. This was one I had on my list as a definite want to attend. But, I'm sure I'll see you in Chicago if not before.

Have a safe trip!

And, in case some of you folks have been out of the loop as to what MLS has been through the last six weeks.... there was CES, which MLS promptly came down with pneumonia right after CES (couldn't talk for over a week), then his step-Father passed away in California, then getting ready for the folks visiting from China, all of the containers arriving, getting stuff ready for the Utah g2g (when he goes, he does it with a bang.... so lots of work involved ahead of time), and through all of that.... has probably posted a couple of hundred personal replies to folks on the various forums.

I surly have NO IDEA how he does it. So, if he's a little slow in a reply or something.... cut him a bit of slack.... cool?

MLS had to cut something out, so he decided that sleep is where he's the least productive and could save the most time.

Gosh... I really apologize for this... Allow me a brief moment to characterize what's going on - and how we are changing this... I also want to apologize for clogging this thread with this data - but I DO feel that this is important...

First... We have been entertaining serious VIP visitors from China... no excuse really - but several of us have been "involved" with them over the last few days - and prior to that - preparing for their visit by getting samples ready, drawings, etc.

Second... I'm the last 7 days we have had FOUR 40 foot High Cube Sea Containers arrive... When this happens "some" of the office staff go out into the warehouse to "direct traffic"... In order to help with this - even though we have an enormous warehouse, we had to install a mobile 40 footer just for product movement...

Third... In the history of our company - and including Christmas - we have NEVER had such a large outbound freight movement over such a compressed period of time... Yesterday alone over 170 Rockets left to the their new homes... (about 35 pallets worth)... We had Yellow Freight in our yard all day with TWO 48-footers for outbound...

Fourth... I got sick... :)

That said... we are making some important changes to help with "process control and flow"... Kyle is being moved to Customer Care Manager and out of his Admin duties... That way if there are issues - you can turn to Customer Care and not have to wait for your salesperson to get back to you... Most of our sales guys get between 70 and 90 sales e-mails per day (4 guys sharing that load - so it can be well over 300 e-mails per day)... PLUS Voice Mail...

We have a new Admin person (Kim) who is just great... We love her...

In a day or two we will be announcing and incredible new hire (Mark J. is what I will call him for this moment) and he will take over Tech Services...

As well, it looks like we will add some sales staff as we need this very badly... and we know that... Look for some news on that front next week after our Utah Get Together this weekend...

We DO realize that we needed loads of improvement in some areas like order tracking and verification... A new system has gone into place that allows for this... You'll like it...

I recognize that with growth comes a greater responsibility to all of you... Since Thanksgiving we have NOT done a great job - look for REAL improvement in these areas soon...

I do apologize to any of you that felt you received a "bums rush"... :o

Most sincerely...

mls

Mark, I just placed my order for a new MF-15 and couldn't be more pleased with the way my call was handled, FWIW. Really looking forward to pissing off the neighbors. Cheers.

Mark, I just placed my order for a new MF-15 and couldn't be more pleased with the way my call was handled, FWIW. Really looking forward to pissing off the neighbors. Cheers.

Good stuff - and Q-Man - thanks Bro...

Been a crazy time for sure... Utah should be nice...

I'm ready...

:D

mls

Hmmm...must be growing pains and the fact that they are becoming more busy. This is a good thing for them but if they interact with customers over the phone then it needs to be a good experience. It makes it that much more fun when the company at least acts excited about getting your business and shares your enthusiasm about their product. Hopefully you just caught someone on an off moment and this is not the norm. I was planning on ordering but I might do it online if I'm going to get the same amount of personality.

While it's not my place to defend AV123, I will say that I live only five minutes from where the Epiks are built and because I didn't order there when ordering would have gotten me a sub fairly quickly, I turned to AV123 and ordered a set of MFW-15 Moho twins last week. They arrived Monday and I didn't get much sleep last night because I just couldn't stop listening to the music. They are wonderful woofers! Not only are they very musical, but they look great and they give me more slam than I've ever felt in my life watching the pods emerge in WOTW. I couldn't be happier and I can't wipe that silly grin off my face when I listen to music or watch a movie.

I'll just have to force myself to turn it off and go to bed. I am a bass-head audioholic and it's been 16 hours since my last listen.

Cheers.

While it's not my place to defend AV123, I will say that I live only five minutes from where the Epiks are built and because I didn't order there when ordering would have gotten me a sub fairly quickly, I turned to AV123 and ordered a set of MFW-15 Moho twins last week. They arrived Monday and I didn't get much sleep last night because I just couldn't stop listening to the music. They are wonderful woofers! Not only are they very musical, but they look great and they give me more slam than I've ever felt in my life watching the pods emerge in WOTW. I couldn't be happier and I can't wipe that silly grin off my face when I listen to music or watch a movie.

I'll just have to force myself to turn it off and go to bed. I am a bass-head audioholic and it's been 16 hours since my last listen.

Cheers.

While the MFW-15s had a bit of a trek to your home, know that they do have some Chicago area roots. ;)

With all the white stuff falling, you should have plenty of time to stay inside listening once you've dug out. Enjoy!

Mark, I just placed my order for a new MF-15 and couldn't be more pleased with the way my call was handled, FWIW. Really looking forward to pissing off the neighbors. Cheers.

Made my day... :)

Many thanks for sure...

All the best...

mls

While it's not my place to defend AV123, I will say that I live only five minutes from where the Epiks are built and because I didn't order there when ordering would have gotten me a sub fairly quickly, I turned to AV123 and ordered a set of MFW-15 Moho twins last week. They arrived Monday and I didn't get much sleep last night because I just couldn't stop listening to the music. They are wonderful woofers! Not only are they very musical, but they look great and they give me more slam than I've ever felt in my life watching the pods emerge in WOTW. I couldn't be happier and I can't wipe that silly grin off my face when I listen to music or watch a movie.

I'll just have to force myself to turn it off and go to bed. I am a bass-head audioholic and it's been 16 hours since my last listen.

Cheers.

Whenever I read messages like this --- it makes everything all so worth while...

:)

Thanks...

mls

While the MFW-15s had a bit of a trek to your home, know that they do have some Chicago area roots. ;)

With all the white stuff falling, you should have plenty of time to stay inside listening once you've dug out. Enjoy!

My guess is you'll be bringing your ski's to Salt Lake (Park City anyone :) )...

See you on Friday Dude...

Travel safe...

HUGS...

mls

First off I read here daily (OK it is an obsession I admit it, they say it is the first step you know:D) and I have got to give Mark S-U-P-E-R props. He has been sooo very helpful and informative on any thread concerning his products and just came on and said "We need to improve" and that is not an easy thing for A LOT of people to do. Instead of sitting and defending their actions he has admitted the need for improvement.

I salute that and would just like to point it out to everyone, as some companies simply remain silent , or worse try to come out and defend their stance. Mark thank you very much.

I am just before moving (Have to sell first :mad:) and I have made up my mind on my new system based on first and foremost your incredible dedication to your customers and second the phenomenal reviews of the RS850's "Bigfoot" center and the RSS300's for surrounds. I will aso be picking p a pair of the MFW-15's and moving my Def-Tec Supercube Reference in the bedroom system.

I just wanted to say thanks and say the honesty and sincerity is appreciated by not just me I am sure. It is these type of things that sway a lot of people, consider me swayed.:cool:

Mark, get off the AV forum and make my damn speakers! I have three MFW-15s on order!:D

I'm like a kid waiting for Christmas here!

Mark, get off the AV forum and make my damn speakers! I have three MFW-15s on order!:D

I'm like a kid waiting for Christmas here!

Don't say this, the Chistmas is more than 10 month away:)

I ordered 2 mfw15s last month...sales guy said to call back in 2 months when I asked about when they would roughly ship. Is a system in place to at least narrow it down to the MONTH a particular order will ship? I guess WEEK or DAY is clearly unavailable.

I ordered 2 mfw15s last month...sales guy said to call back in 2 months when I asked about when they would roughly ship. Is a system in place to at least narrow it down to the MONTH a particular order will ship? I guess WEEK or DAY is clearly unavailable.

We can tell you the month when your order should be ready to ship...

We have firm dates from our factories - while they can slip a bit (or be early) we are pretty close...

Our web site also gives good ETD's...

Best...

mls

First off I read here daily (OK it is an obsession I admit it, they say it is the first step you know:D) and I have got to give Mark S-U-P-E-R props. He has been sooo very helpful and informative on any thread concerning his products and just came on and said "We need to improve" and that is not an easy thing for A LOT of people to do. Instead of sitting and defending their actions he has admitted the need for improvement.

I salute that and would just like to point it out to everyone, as some companies simply remain silent , or worse try to come out and defend their stance. Mark thank you very much.

I am just before moving (Have to sell first :mad:) and I have made up my mind on my new system based on first and foremost your incredible dedication to your customers and second the phenomenal reviews of the RS850's "Bigfoot" center and the RSS300's for surrounds. I will aso be picking p a pair of the MFW-15's and moving my Def-Tec Supercube Reference in the bedroom system.

I just wanted to say thanks and say the honesty and sincerity is appreciated by not just me I am sure. It is these type of things that sway a lot of people, consider me swayed.:cool:

More than welcome...

All normal for us - and we ARE stepping it up in our three factories post CNY...

I'm investing further in FGI - and ordering LONG...

:)

All the best...

mls

We can tell you the month when your order should be ready to ship...

We have firm dates from our factories - while they can slip a bit (or be early) we are pretty close...

Our web site also gives good ETD's...

Best...

mls

Mark, I would like to see a chart on the spl vs hz for the MFW-15. Any chance of this happening?

Bill

Mark, get off the AV forum and make my damn speakers! I have three MFW-15s on order!:D

I'm like a kid waiting for Christmas here!

Cool...

I'm out for a few days now... (Utah GTG) but Lynn is in there slugging away on MFW's and x-statik's...

:)

mls

Mark, I would like to see a chart on the spl vs hz for the new sub. Any chance of this happening?

Bill

Sure...

I do believe that Mark Seaton has a load of data I could ask him to post...

Frankly most of the stuff I have seen here looks really right on...

All the best...

mls

ground plane charts would be great MLS/MS! FR and THD :)

single and duals too!

Sure...

I do believe that Mark Seaton has a load of data I could ask him to post...

Frankly most of the stuff I have seen here looks really right on...

All the best...

mls

There is no graph of SPL vs HZ anywhere though. The rest looks great.

Sure like to see the SPL vs HZ myself!

Larry

I want a AV123 mug included in my purchase. :)

--Regards,

Look at post #5441 on page 182.

Look at post #5624 on page 188.

Look at posts #5946 and 5969 on page 199.

Is this the AV123 thread or Craigs? I had to double check the title of the thread after reading the last few posts. :eek:

I think this is Craigsub's thread.

--Regards,

I ordered 2 mfw15s last month...sales guy said to call back in 2 months when I asked about when they would roughly ship. Is a system in place to at least narrow it down to the MONTH a particular order will ship? I guess WEEK or DAY is clearly unavailable.

I'm seeing mixed signals on the time needed to get the MFW-15's from the time of order being placed"

Patmacav stated in his post below "I turned to AV123 and ordered a set of MFW-15 Moho twins last week. They arrived Monday " and other people like you have been waiting for months. This seems strange.:confused:

I'm seeing mixed signals on the time needed to get the MFW-15's from the time of order being placed"

Patmacav stated in his post below "I turned to AV123 and ordered a set of MFW-15 Moho twins last week. They arrived Monday " and other people like you have been waiting for months. This seems strange.:confused:

I think the shipping times depend on the wood veneer. Some finishes are more popular than others. I believe that AV123 had more of the Moho in stock.

I think the shipping times depend on the wood veneer. Some finishes are more popular than others. I believe that AV123 had more of the Moho in stock.

Exactly right. All finishes are gone but the Moho of which there are only a few left, (having ordered one myself a day ago)

Is this the AV123 thread or Craigs? I had to double check the title of the thread after reading the last few posts. :eek:

Relax Kevin... With the impression the MFW-15 has made recently, it should be expected to find alot of av123 talk.

Is this the AV123 thread or Craigs? I had to double check the title of the thread after reading the last few posts. :eek:

I think you should have said last several pages. The MFM-15 is an amazing product, but this is getting carried away. As you alluded to there are better places to be bragging about or discussing orders. I'd love to see more reviews and recorded/measured data on the MFM-15 (from anyone), but lets stop with the rest of the banter.

For anyone who hasn't seen it yet,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=990250

Is this the AV123 thread or Craigs? I had to double check the title of the thread after reading the last few posts. :eek:
I think you should have said last several pages. The MFM-15 is an amazing product, but this is getting carried away. As you alluded to there are better places to be bragging about or discussing orders. I'd love to see more reviews and recorded/measured data on the MFM-15 (from anyone), but lets stop with the rest of the banter.
For anyone who hasn't seen it yet,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=990250
Never the less, this thread was started by new27 and the first sentence of this entire thread states that - "This was taken from AV123 boards..." Seems to reason that the thread content (and participants) resembles what is also being discussed at AV123.

Never the less, this thread was started by new27 and the first sentence of this entire thread states that - "This was taken from AV123 boards..." Seems to reason that the thread content (and participants) resembles what is also being discussed at AV123.

So based on your logic this entire thread should be about products from AV123? The thread is supposed to be about Craig's reviews, impressions and measurments of different subs, the MFW-15 included, but the last few pages have just gotten out of hand.

I don't want to add to the clutter so this is the last I will say about this, but there is a dedicated MFW-15 thread where discussions can be had about ordering the sub, customer service from AV123 and not getting an email response to questions.

By the way, you will notice that NEW27 hasn't posted in this thread since he started it, this is Craig's thread. :rolleyes:

So based on your logic this entire thread should be about products from AV123? The thread is supposed to be about Craig's reviews, impressions and measurments of different subs, the MFW-15 included, but the last few pages have just gotten out of hand.

I don't want to add to the clutter so this is the last I will say about this, but there is a dedicated MFW-15 thread where discussions can be had about ordering the sub, customer service from AV123 and not getting an email response to questions.

By the way, you will notice that NEW27 hasn't posted in this thread since he started it, this is Craig's thread. :rolleyes:

i also was thinking the same thing.
used to be a valuble tool for all subs.

So based on your logic this entire thread should be about products from AV123? Well, not necessarily, but it certainly is acceptable to talk about av123 subs isn't it? If you go through the thread, you'll see that whenever a new sub is released and ranked, it gets a lot of talk. SVS's new Ultra, JL's subs, eD subs, Epik subs all garnered a lot of attention and discussion in this tread. In a few weeks/months another new sub will appear, and it too will be given the royal treatment. No big deal.

So based on your logic this entire thread should be about products from AV123? The thread is supposed to be about Craig's reviews, impressions and measurments of different subs, the MFW-15 included, but the last few pages have just gotten out of hand.

I don't want to add to the clutter so this is the last I will say about this, but there is a dedicated MFW-15 thread where discussions can be had about ordering the sub, customer service from AV123 and not getting an email response to questions.

By the way, you will notice that NEW27 hasn't posted in this thread since he started it, this is Craig's thread. :rolleyes:Please re-read my post. I did not imply that the "entire thread" should be about AV123 products nor do I want it to be. This thread contains some very good information on ALL subs tested. In fact, I think it has been very balanced as Rijax indicated. I was simply pointing out that the discussions started on the AV123 site and there is a degree of cross-talk which explains some of the discussions.

Time for a moderator to come in and clean some of this out.

We don't need a moderator acting as thought police here... every subwoofer has had its few days of extra attention throughout the tenure of this thread. A separate thread has now been opened on the MFW-15, which should ease this.

As mentioned earlier, the next testing will include participation from people who are active on any audio forum.

And it looks like Chad is pretty backed up, too. It may be some time before we see anything new here. :eek:

It's way too much SVS in this forum, reminds me of the old days when BOSE was hitting the market and you all know BOSE....

Why not make separate threads for each manufacturer instead?

Attempting to compare SVS to Bose is not at all reasonable. Such a statement displays only ignorance, bias and/or a competing agenda.


Tim

Well, not necessarily, but it certainly is acceptable to talk about av123 subs isn't it? If you go through the thread, you'll see that whenever a new sub is released and ranked, it gets a lot of talk. SVS's new Ultra, JL's subs, eD subs, Epik subs all garnered a lot of attention and discussion in this tread. In a few weeks/months another new sub will appear, and it too will be given the royal treatment. No big deal.

Every sub test will/should result in talk/rants/raves about it for a few days. Unfortunately this has been going on for almost 2 weeks and it wasn't getting any better. If anything it was getting worse. I certainly don't intend to read through "weeks/months" of attention to one sub (regardless of make) in hopes of reading some new reviews/comparisons. I doubt many people would, thus it was becoming a big deal. Hopefully it has now been dealt with.

My subhttp://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/10/17/subway,0.jpg

My subhttp://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/10/17/subway,0.jpg

Do you have oil or mayo to get better excursion?

Craig,
Since it may be a while until you see anything new there, how about something a couple of years old. I would also like to see the Klipsch THX Ultra 2 subs tested. They are known for their 'slam' and I would really like to know how they compare to a pair of the MFW-15s or any of the newer subs being discussed.

Has anyone, who has any of the newer subs discussed in this thread, ever had the Klipsch pair in the same system? Which would you choose for a dedicated theater room?

Thanks! :)

Every sub test will/should result in talk/rants/raves about it for a few days. Unfortunately this has been going on for almost 2 weeks and it wasn't getting any better. If anything it was getting worse. I certainly don't intend to read through "weeks/months" of attention to one sub (regardless of make) in hopes of reading some new reviews/comparisons. I doubt many people would, thus it was becoming a big deal. Hopefully it has now been dealt with.

One reason the MFW was talked about for a while was the fact that no additional subs were tested after. The MFW was the last one tested by Craig and also given a nice score. As new subs get tested, they will replace the MFW discussion and we'll all forget about this "turning" into an AV123 thread. It'll be back to "normal" if we can call it that. :)

Craig,
Since it may be a while until you see anything new there, how about something a couple of years old. I would also like to see the Klipsch THX Ultra 2 subs tested. They are known for their 'slam' and I would really like to know how they compare to a pair of the MFW-15s or any of the newer subs being discussed.

Has anyone, who has any of the newer subs discussed in this thread, ever had the Klipsch pair in the same system? Which would you choose for a dedicated theater room?

Thanks! :)

I raised this question yesterday. The Klipsch THX Ultra 2 subs are highly praised and we do want to see how the THX Ultra 2 stand. The Klipsch THX Ultra 2 subs and dual AV123 MFW-15 are a perfect comparison.

Note: a single Klipsch THX Ultra 2 sub cost around the same as dual MFW-15.

They do get great marks, and undoubtedly would do well. However, as far as I can tell Craig is done purchasing and testing subs as of the dual MFW's in the rigorous methods he had used to this point to rate everything else. If a comparison is desired, THEEar might be petitioned as he's just about as nuts as Craig with regard to subs (in a good way, don't take offense guys ;)) and / or someone who owns them can bring them to Craigs shindig coming up in a few months.

Michael

Anybody close to that place can loan his Klipsch THX Ultra 2 subs for the evaluation? :):)

It's way too much SVS in this forum, reminds me of the old days when BOSE was hitting the market and you all know BOSE....

Why not make separate threads for each manufacturer instead?

If you take a quick look at this post, you have to wonder what the heck the guy is talking about???? Actully SVS has not been the latest "talk" by any means at all, and the bose comparison is just plain stupid! SVS is certainly not just hitting the market. Here's a clue - there are (most major ones) ACTUAL "seperate threads for each manufacturer" but that's where it gets very complex - you have to LOOK for them:D

You guys need to PM rmlowz, he owns the Klipsch THX ultra subs, as well as the A7-900, Conquest, and the Danley Dts-20. I also have owned the The klipsch THX subs but Have not heard any of the new ones.

Well, not necessarily, but it certainly is acceptable to talk about av123 subs isn't it? If you go through the thread, you'll see that whenever a new sub is released and ranked, it gets a lot of talk. SVS's new Ultra, JL's subs, eD subs, Epik subs all garnered a lot of attention and discussion in this tread. In a few weeks/months another new sub will appear, and it too will be given the royal treatment. No big deal.

+1 !!!

Every sub test will/should result in talk/rants/raves about it for a few days. Unfortunately this has been going on for almost 2 weeks and it wasn't getting any better. If anything it was getting worse. I certainly don't intend to read through "weeks/months" of attention to one sub (regardless of make) in hopes of reading some new reviews/comparisons. I doubt many people would, thus it was becoming a big deal. Hopefully it has now been dealt with. Well, it's obviously becoming a big deal to you.

I'm always puzzled by those who seem to think what is discussed in a thread, and/or how long it's discussed, should be based on their degree of interest in the subject. Would it not be logical that, if one finds a thread, or a given portion of a thread uninteresting, one would simply ignore the thread, or skip over the uninteresting post(s), or do just about anything other than rain on the parade others are finding worthwhile and enjoyable?

If you "certainly don't intend to read through "weeks/months" of attention to one sub (regardless of make)," that is your right.

The point is, it's a free market. As long as it's on topic, are not people entitled to talk about whatever they wish to talk about, for as long as they wish to talk about it, be it 2 days, 2 weeks, or two years? Regardless, as has already has been pointed out, the new thread(s) regarding the MFW-15 should satisfy everybody.

A lot of recommendations have been made for the Ultra 2 Subs to be paired with home theaters with tremendous output: LaScala or K-horn based theaters. I'd sure be interested to know if these newer subs (PB13, Conquest, Castle, MFW-15, F113) can provide the 'slam' to keep up with this kind of theater. Undoubtably, the newer subs will have more output <20Hz, but can they keep up higher up the chart, which some believe to be much more important.

I have an email into a gent I know from Klipsch to see if they are interested in having the KW-120 THX tested, and also to see if they want to add a pair of La Scalas to the mix. :)

Very Nice!!! :D Here's hoping...

Thanks Craig!

Every sub test will/should result in talk/rants/raves about it for a few days. Unfortunately this has been going on for almost 2 weeks and it wasn't getting any better. If anything it was getting worse. I certainly don't intend to read through "weeks/months" of attention to one sub (regardless of make) in hopes of reading some new reviews/comparisons. I doubt many people would, thus it was becoming a big deal. Hopefully it has now been dealt with.

Many people have been reading for months and many people will continue to do just that. If anyone certainly does not intend to they certainly don't have to. I have made some some sub choices due to this forum already so new MFWs are not in my near future but I don't mind reading about them and I certainly wouldn't want to inhibit the enthusiasm of those that are excited about this sub. This thread was not created for my personal convenience. I am just thankfull that is was created. May it continue on for a long time.

Edit
Oops. Sorry Rijax. I had not read your post when I wrote this. We are essentially saying the same thing you just said it better.

Well, it's obviously becoming a big deal to you.

I'm always puzzled by those who seem to think what is discussed in a thread, and/or how long it's discussed, should be based on their degree of interest in the subject. Would it not be logical that, if one finds a thread, or a given portion of a thread uninteresting, one would simply ignore the thread, or skip over the uninteresting post(s), or do just about anything other than rain on the parade others are finding worthwhile and enjoyable?

If you "certainly don't intend to read through "weeks/months" of attention to one sub (regardless of make)," that is your right.

The point is, it's a free market. As long as it's on topic, are not people entitled to talk about whatever they wish to talk about, for as long as they wish to talk about it, be it 2 days, 2 weeks, or two years? Regardless, as has already has been pointed out, the new thread(s) regarding the MFW-15 should satisfy everybody.

Couple things you appear to have missed with your logic.

1. The discussion was NOT on topic, if it were we'd all be enjoying it. I'd love to have read about specs, comparisons, performance, and reviews involving the MFM15. Instead I had to read page after page of people discussing ordering and how happy they'll be when it arrives in 2 months.

2. The whole reason this thread is so great is the density of information. Those posts ruin that greatness.

3. You can't skip over threads or in particular portions of threads in an attempt to skip uninteresting (or more to the point USELESS) posts. You don't know their contents until you read them.

4. This was a post of Craig's from Jan 20th; page 193! It summaries nicely why the last few weeks of posts are in appropriate... Speaking to this problem the first time it popped up.
Guys ... Please, unless a post has to do with the performance of the MFW-15, take it to the AV123 forum.

Posts about the factory in Cali, and about how MLS runs it ... any and all of that type of post ... do not belong here.

Thank you. :)

5. It is also my "right" to bitch when I see stuff like what has happened here in the last few weeks. You are free to disagree; people are entitled to be wrong.


I won't post anything else on this subject as I have nothing else "nice" to say and I don't want to be adding to (or becoming part of) the mess I'm bitching about.

Thanks veris. Quote from craig says it all.

1. The discussion was NOT on topic... . We'll just have to agree to disagree. Talking about the latest subwoofer Craig has ranked in the "Official Craigsub Rankings Thread" is, IMHO, most certainly on topic. I'm a tad amazed you see it otherwise. :confused:

...if it were we'd all be enjoying it. I'd love to have read about specs, comparisons, and reviews involving the MFM15. Instead I had to read page after page of people discussing ordering and how happy they'll be when it arrives in 2 months. Once again, you seem to be using your personal interests, what you enjoy, and what you "have to do" to decide what is "on-topic."

The MFW-15 is a new subwoofer. At the moment complete specs are unknown, and there are no substantive comparisons and reviews. When there are, I'm sure they will be discussed. Meantime, I, and apparently others as well, have an interest in ordering procedures, and any other factor regarding the MFW-15. While I agree that those interests will be better served in a thread specifically devoted to the MFW-15, which has now been started, until such a thread existed, I see nothing wrong with them coming up here. There certainly has been infinitely more egregious off-topic discussions in this thread, and I find myself wondering why this particular discussion has been singled out. :confused:

I haven't found every post or every subwoofer discussed in this thread interesting. But, I haven't thread crapped by criticizing those enjoying the discussion, simply because the discussion doesn't happen to interest me. I just skip over their posts. Would you have us check with you to see if what we have to say interests you, or if you consider it to be on-topic, before we make our posts?

2. The whole reason this thread is so great is the density of information. Well something we finally can sorta agree on, I think. I'm not sure what you mean by the term "density." What makes this thread great, IMHO, is the wealth of information it contains, including the information in which I have absolutely no interest. Whether a given individual, or group of individuals, is interested in what is being discussed at any given moment is, basically, irrelevant.

Those posts ruin that greatness. Whoops, back again to using your personal preferences as the measure of what is great in this thread and what is not. Fortunately, that is only your opinion. You, of course, are entitled to your opinion and entitled to express it. As am I.

3. You can't skip over threads or in particular portions of threads in an attempt to skip uninteresting (or more to the point USELESS) posts. You don't know their contents until you read them. Oh my. Of course you can skip over threads. The subject line often gives a good idea of what the thread is about. If it doesn't the first post will. If it interests you, read on. If it doesn't, skip it.

And no, it is not necessary to read an entire post to know if it's contents will interest you. There is a thing called skimming. If you do that to every post, looking for the key words, you can quickly tell if that particular post is likely to interest you or not. I'd wager the vast majority of those on this forum skim many posts.

4. It is also my "right" to bitch when I see stuff like what has happened here in the last two weeks. You are free to disagree. People are entitled to be wrong. I don't believe anyone said you don't have the right to bitch about people talking about an on-topic subject simply because you don't share that interest. I simply said I am greatly puzzled as to why anyone would chose to do so. All I can come up with is that they simply wish to derail the thread and spoil others enjoyment, or are so self-centered that they think only their interests should be discussed. :confused:

I won't post anything else on this subject as I have nothing else "nice" to say and I don't want to be adding to (becoming) the mess I'm bitching about. Too late. ;) Regrettably, for me as well. Humble apologies to all. :o

Here is where the MFW-15 really starts to kick butt ... The 32 Hz region is smack in the middle of the "slam" area I mentioned earlier that it manages to hit "better" than its competitors ....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/mfw1532Hz.jpg

And here is the response curve, roughly +/- 3 dB from 17 Hz to 100 Hz. ...

Specs from the company are great, but isn't a measured graph somewhat more informative ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/mfw15QS.jpg

Craig,

How does that slam area in the first graph compare to the same thing for the SVS Ultra?

The PB13 hit 116dB at 32Hz (compared to 109dB). Wouldn't that mean more slam?

The PB13 hit 116dB at 32Hz (compared to 109dB). Wouldn't that mean more slam?

you'd think so.

you'd think so.

Same here. Just trying to figure out the relationship between slam and SPL.

Its been said that the MFW-15 has better slam than the PB13. Only thing that makes much sense is that running a sine wave gives you different results than a signal made up of a mix of low frequency signals.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about the slam at 32 Hz. Maybe if you double it...

Ok guys, can you point out another test that takes the frequency in question, in this case 32 Hz, and runs a sine wave at that frequency, slowly raising the SPL level until the harmonics begin to spike ? This took about 20 seconds.

Comparing results from one test to another just is not a good idea.

And this also points out why we do extensive listening tests. Even at moderate levels, the MFW-15 hits harder on the 25-60 Hz stuff, than does its competition.

Ok guys, can you point out another test that takes the frequency in question, in this case 32 Hz, and runs a sine wave at that frequency, slowly raising the SPL level until the harmonics begin to spike ? This took about 20 seconds.

Comparing results from one test to another just is not a good idea.

And this also points out why we do extensive listening tests. Even at moderate levels, the MFW-15 hits harder on the 25-60 Hz stuff, than does its competition.


This makes me think that a Hell of a setup would be Dual MFW-15's co-located. And an MBM-12 thrown in for good measure handling 50hz to 80hz......

I think you should have said last several pages. The MFM-15 is an amazing product, but this is getting carried away. As you alluded to there are better places to be bragging about or discussing orders. I'd love to see more reviews and recorded/measured data on the MFM-15 (from anyone), but lets stop with the rest of the banter.

Certainly I apologize if this has offended you in any manner... My history is IF I'm asked a question I try really hard to answer as quickly as possible - and in the same place...

Again, apologies...

All the best...

mls

amazing how touchy some people are.

to all those who pay to use this forum, on behalf of those who distracted this discussion with, uhh, discussion, I wholeheartedly apologize.

oh wait...

Certainly I apologize if this has offended you in any manner... My history is IF I'm asked a question I try really hard to answer as quickly as possible - and in the same place...

Again, apologies...

All the best...

mls

Mark there is NO need to apologize. You are a consummate professional and I was never offended by you or your responses. Quite the contrary actually, I’ve been very impressed, you are a credit to the community. I simply felt (and still do) that the thread jacking needed to stop, as several weeks of it is too much.

Thread jacking is like left lane bandits (those that drive below the speed limit in the left/passing lane). The occasional event is a non issue. When it becomes the norm it becomes a major PITA for the majority.

Well, I just typed up a long post, and my firefox crashed, so I'll make it short this time.
I found SVS in germany, however I haven't seen AV123 at all yet. However I am interested in the buzz around the new MFW-15. Anyone (especially employees) know if there are any importers affiliated with them, so the MFW-15 would reach germany?

EDIT, if not, how about APO addresses? Pity I lost mine this summer, but it would interest me to know.

So since the BIC H-100 scores a 40 as well as the VTF-2's 40 in HT, does this mean that the H-100 is a better choice for me, seeing that I intend to use it mainly for movies?

Would i do better with two H-100 subs or just one VTF-2 MK3?



UPDATE: I have settled upon the VTF-2 MK 3 Subwoofer as my choice because it fits within HSU's recommended large room size of 4500 cubic feet (4480 cubic feet), And it is available in stock, I can't wait 2 months for a sub.

So since the BIC H-100 scores a 40 as well as the VTF-2's 40 in HT, does this mean that the H-100 is a better choice for me, seeing that I intend to use it mainly for movies?

Would i do better with two H-100 subs or just one VTF-2 MK3?



UPDATE: I have settled upon the VTF-2 MK 3 Subwoofer as my choice because it fits within HSU's recommended large room size of 4500 cubic feet (4480 cubic feet), And it is available in stock, I can't wait 2 months for a sub.

2 months??? The BIC H-100 is readily available. You must be referring to a different sub.

So since the BIC H-100 scores a 40 as well as the VTF-2's 40 in HT, does this mean that the H-100 is a better choice for me, seeing that I intend to use it mainly for movies?

Would i do better with two H-100 subs or just one VTF-2 MK3?



UPDATE: I have settled upon the VTF-2 MK 3 Subwoofer as my choice because it fits within HSU's recommended large room size of 4500 cubic feet (4480 cubic feet), And it is available in stock, I can't wait 2 months for a sub.

Good choice - even though dual H-100's will play louder, they won't sound as good doing so. :)

Good choice - even though dual H-100's will play louder, they won't sound as good doing so. :)

What do you make of the Epik Knight?

What do you make of the Epik Knight?

I have not auditioned one ... but with as well as the Valor and Castle did, I am sure the Knight is a terrific performer. Think Valor with a substantially higher output in the 15-30 Hz range.

I have not auditioned one ... but with as well as the Valor and Castle did, I am sure the Knight is a terrific performer. Think Valor with a substantially higher output in the 15-30 Hz range.

Which is better for movies? The VTF-2 MK3, the Epik Valor, two H-100, or two CSX-12?

My room is 4480 cubic feet.

Hey craig... I already have a Castle, and am thinking of adding a second sub to my system. Should I get another Castle or would it be ok to get a Tower. You know, one to reinforce the other? Using the same driver and amp, I would expect the same 'tone'. Would that sound ok, or should I match identical subs? I will be locating them at different parts of the room, not stacking them if that matters. Thanks.:)

Hey craig... I already have a Castle, and am thinking of adding a second sub to my system. Should I get another Castle or would it be ok to get a Tower. You know, one to reinforce the other? Using the same driver and amp, I would expect the same 'tone'. Would that sound ok, or should I match identical subs? I will be locating them at different parts of the room, not stacking them if that matters. Thanks.:)

You should still go with another Castle ... the slightly different tuning of the 2 enclosures will add to the complexity of properly dialing them into your room.

Thanks craig, that was quick. That is the answer I had expected actually. How do you think two Castles would measure against the Conquest? Not that I have buyers remorse by any standards, it's just a tad easier in my room (1700 cubic ft) to find a home for 2 Castles than one Conquest (even though I originally wanted the Conquest). This is getting to be an expensive hobby.:)

Thanks craig, that was quick. That is the answer I had expected actually. How do you think two Castles would measure against the Conquest? Not that I have buyers remorse by any standards, it's just a tad easier in my room (1700 cubic ft) to find a home for 2 Castles than one Conquest (even though I originally wanted the Conquest). This is getting to be an expensive hobby.:)

1700 cubic feet. Two Castles. Gee, I think you might get by .... :D

Seriously, I would take twin Castles over a single Conquest.

Parts Express has a Dayton HSU12 12" Powered Subwoofer for $400. They claim that it was created by Dr Hsu.

Is this comparable to the HSU VTF-2 MK3?

Parts Express has a Dayton HSU12 12" Powered Subwoofer for $400. They claim that it was created by Dr Hsu.

Is this comparable to the HSU VTF-2 MK3?

Good question - One would think they are close.

Good question - One would think they are close.

You missed my earlier question: Which is better for movies? The VTF-2 MK3, the Epik Valor, two H-100, or two CSX-12? And please give me the reason. I am only interested in HT not music. Thanks.

My room is 4480 cubic feet.

You missed my earlier question: Which is better for movies? The VTF-2 MK3, the Epik Valor, two H-100, or two CSX-12? And please give me the reason. I am only interested in HT not music. Thanks.

My room is 4480 cubic feet.

I tend not to answer questions like this. The whole point of this process is to help people narrow down to a few choices, then make a decision based on his own parameters.

I did already mention that Dual H-100's would be louder than the VTF-2.3, but the Hsu would sound better.

Other than that, look at the ratings, think about what is important to you, and pull the trigger on what YOU think is best.

I tend not to answer questions like this. The whole point of this process is to help people narrow down to a few choices, then make a decision based on his own parameters.

I did already mention that Dual H-100's would be louder than the VTF-2.3, but the Hsu would sound better.

Other than that, look at the ratings, think about what is important to you, and pull the trigger on what YOU think is best.

I am a novice at this, so please be patient with me. I don't really understand some of the terminology. I currently have an Onkyo SKW204 ($199), so you see where I am coming from in terms of knowledge.

I just want deep bass that I can feel when watching movies. Does louder mean deep loud bass? And please explain what "sound better" means.

Thanks again.

I am a novice at this, so please be patient with me. I don't really understand some of the terminology. I currently have an Onkyo SKW204 ($199), so you see where I am coming from in terms of knowledge.

I just want deep bass that I can feel when watching movies. Does louder mean deep loud bass? And please explain what "sound better" means.

Thanks again.

You have a pretty big room, so the best we can do is get you a solid 25 Hz performer. $500 is not going to buy you 20 Hz at sufficient volumes in that room. This is not a bad thing, though - 25 Hz is pretty deep, and will be a major step forward for you.

From your list, I would prefer either the Valor or VTF-2.3 ... I have used both in a 4500 cubic foot room and been pretty happy with them. I am fairly certain that you would, after properly calibrating either of these subs into your system, be thrilled at the increase in music and movie enjoyment.

Sounds better is a topic which involves a lot of listening ... trying to put that into a few paragraphs here would be impossible.

1700 cubic feet. Two Castles. Gee, I think you might get by .... :D

Seriously, I would take twin Castles over a single Conquest.

Thank you very much.:)

Since there's a lot of interest in the Valor, what would be better for HT? I know of the Valor, the SVS SB12, the ML Abyss, and the ED A7S-450. I want to make sure I'm getting some of the best bass for music, but it's also gotta rock the house for movies. I'm sure I'm over analyzing this like everything. At some point I just need to decide to make a decision and have a sub finally :P Right now I'm listening to music through a pair of Klipsch SB-1 bookshelves! They actually put out a tiny bit of bass, probably just the right amount to avoid eviction.

You have a pretty big room, so the best we can do is get you a solid 25 Hz performer. $500 is not going to buy you 20 Hz at sufficient volumes in that room. This is not a bad thing, though - 25 Hz is pretty deep, and will be a major step forward for you.

From your list, I would prefer either the Valor or VTF-2.3 ... I have used both in a 4500 cubic foot room and been pretty happy with them. I am fairly certain that you would, after properly calibrating either of these subs into your system, be thrilled at the increase in music and movie enjoyment.

Sounds better is a topic which involves a lot of listening ... trying to put that into a few paragraphs here would be impossible.

Thank you so much! I was completely confused. The best thing for me would be to buy one VTF-2.3 now, and maybe add a second one later down the line.
I am sure that I would be pretty overwhelmed by the sound that I get from the VTF-2.3, especially considering where I came from.

Thanks again.

I am sure that I would be pretty overwhelmed by the sound that I get from the VTF-2.3, especially considering where I came from.

Thanks again.

Going from the Onkyo to what you are considering...saying you would be pretty overwhelmed is an understatement in my opinion...more like blown away is how I would phrase it...;)

Going from the Onkyo to what you are considering...saying you would be pretty overwhelmed is an understatement in my opinion...more like blown away is how I would phrase it...;)

I would only hope. Thanks.

One qustion: What does this mean? Frequency Response (maxiumum extension mode) or (maxiumum output mode)?
What is the difference?

My inexpirienced advice to you Blulover is to save up for the Knight or the mwf-15. Either of those is only +$100 to the vtf-2 and will probably sound as good as a pair of vtf-2's

One qustion: What does this mean? Frequency Response (maxiumum extension mode) or (maxiumum output mode)?
What is the difference?

The Hsu subs are ported subs. The VTF-2 MK3 has two ports. If you leave both ports how they are, the VTF-2 MK3 is tuned to around 25hz (its natural, native tune). This is maximum output mode. However, you can use a port plug to block off one of the ports, which lowers the tune of the VTF-2 MK3 to around 20hz. This reduces the maximum amount of output it can generate, but increases its ability to reproduce deeper frequencies. This is maximum extension mode. So you'll see a tradeoff - maximum output mode allows for higher SPL's across the VTF-2 MK3's frequency response, but it means the sub can only get down to a little below 25hz with authority. Conversely, maximum extension allows the VTF-2 MK3 to dig deeper (around 18hz or so), but it decreases the maximum SPL it can produce across the board. So you're making a compromise, really. You can choose if you want to have a bit higher SPL's and more headroom, or if you want to sacrifice some volume for lower frequency response.

A very simple way to put it is that Maximum Extension mode is "deep mode", while Maximum Output mode is "loud mode". Hope this helps.

Since there's a lot of interest in the Valor, what would be better for HT? I know of the Valor, the SVS SB12, the ML Abyss, and the ED A7S-450. I want to make sure I'm getting some of the best bass for music, but it's also gotta rock the house for movies. I'm sure I'm over analyzing this like everything. At some point I just need to decide to make a decision and have a sub finally :P Right now I'm listening to music through a pair of Klipsch SB-1 bookshelves! They actually put out a tiny bit of bass, probably just the right amount to avoid eviction.

The A7S-450 with 1,300 watts will be a lot better for HT than the other two and it is an excellent sub musically. The A7S-450 will move a lot more air with the 18" driver and it has a lot more power. I am using an A7S-450 with the LT1300 for 90% HT use.

The Hsu subs are ported subs. The VTF-2 MK3 has two ports. If you leave both ports how they are, the VTF-2 MK3 is tuned to around 25hz (its natural, native tune). This is maximum output mode. However, you can use a port plug to block off one of the ports, which lowers the tune of the VTF-2 MK3 to around 20hz. This reduces the maximum amount of output it can generate, but increases its ability to reproduce deeper frequencies. This is maximum extension mode. So you'll see a tradeoff - maximum output mode allows for higher SPL's across the VTF-2 MK3's frequency response, but it means the sub can only get down to a little below 25hz with authority. Conversely, maximum extension allows the VTF-2 MK3 to dig deeper (around 18hz or so), but it decreases the maximum SPL it can produce across the board. So you're making a compromise, really. You can choose if you want to have a bit higher SPL's and more headroom, or if you want to sacrifice some volume for lower frequency response.

A very simple way to put it is that Maximum Extension mode is "deep mode", while Maximum Output mode is "loud mode". Hope this helps.

You have it backwards. According to their Subwoofer manual, The VTF-2 MK3s are tuned to 18hz (its natural, native tune). To get the sub to get louder is when you remove the port plug and turn on the Maximum Output mode. Here you go:

Variable Tuning

If you don’t like the air shaking feeling of very deep bass, or if you often listen to extremely loud chest-thumping material that has less
deep bass, Maximum Output mode is for you.
You can switch over to Maximum Output mode when the system’s volume level is low or the subwoofer is OFF. There are two steps:

1) Grip and pull out the foam port plug that is inserted in one of the port holes on the back of the subwoofer, or remove the turbo.
2) Flip the BASS EXTENTION switch on the back of the subwoofer to the MAX OUTPUT mode.
In technical language, you will get about 4 dB of extra head-room so that bass can be played louder, at the expense of some deep bass
extension. In other words, the subwoofer has been transformed into a louder device with less deep bass.
Switching back is simply a matter of firmly re-inserting the port plug into one of the port holes or attaching a turbo and flipping the
switch back to MAX EXTENSION mode. Make sure that the switch setting is consistent with the port setting. Using the wrong switch
position at loud volume levels may damage your subwoofer and void the warranty.

You have it backwards. According to their Subwoofer manual, The VTF-2 MK3s are tuned to 18hz (its natural, native tune). To get the sub to get louder is when you remove the port plug and turn on the Maximum Output mode. Here you go:

Sorry I misquoted which was the "native tune". My description of what max extension mode does as compared to max output mode was accurate, as was my description of which mode uses a port plug. Just curious, if you already knew the answer to the question, why did you ask? It sounds like you already know the difference between "max output" and "max extension" modes on the VTF-2 MK3, so I'm not really sure why you asked. I appreciate the "help", but correcting me on a minor tidbit of debatably misinformation from my post that in no way affected the overall message (nor the accuracy of all relevant information in my post - namely the answer to your inquiry as to the difference between the two modes) seems a bit pointless to me

The native tune of a subwoofer is generally thought of as the tuning frequency of the box as it is built, sans any port blockers.

For practical purposes, it really does not matter which one you start at ... one blocked, or both open ... both answers could be looked at as correct.

I usually watch movies well below (at least -10db) reference. My living room is about 1620 cubic feet, but it has large openings onto my dining room (which is larger than the livingroom) and the foyer (which is about half the living rooms volume - but it has steps going up).

The mains in my system are very good and reach down pretty low, so for my system the subwoofer is really being used primarily for the very low frequencys (30 and below).
For Home theatre, How well does the VTF-2 MK3 reach its low end? Would that work well in my space? Would I get a big advantage using a MFW-15?

The native tune of a subwoofer is generally thought of as the tuning frequency of the box as it is built, sans any port blockers.

For practical purposes, it really does not matter which one you start at ... one blocked, or both open ... both answers could be looked at as correct.

That had been my understanding. I know SVS subs are listed with their native tune being with all ports open, and had assumed it would be the same with Hsu.

Sorry I misquoted which was the "native tune". My description of what max extension mode does as compared to max output mode was accurate, as was my description of which mode uses a port plug. Just curious, if you already knew the answer to the question, why did you ask? It sounds like you already know the difference between "max output" and "max extension" modes on the VTF-2 MK3, so I'm not really sure why you asked. I appreciate the "help", but correcting me on a minor tidbit of debatably misinformation from my post that in no way affected the overall message (nor the accuracy of all relevant information in my post - namely the answer to your inquiry as to the difference between the two modes) seems a bit pointless to me

Sorry about that, I have been gathering a lot of info from Craigsub and subwoofer websites. When you stated your surmation, I decided to revisit the Subwoofer manual at HSU to verify your surmation, and thus discovered the error.

But the info about "max extention" & "bass extention", I read from your post, and it enabled me to better understand the info that I read from HSU, so I was able to point out the error.
Thanks for your help.

Sorry about that, I have been gathering a lot of info from Craigsub and subwoofer websites. When you stated your surmation, I decided to revisit the Subwoofer manual at HSU to verify your surmation, and thus discovered the error.

But the info about "max extention" & "bass extention", I read from your post, and it enabled me to better understand the info that I read from HSU, so I was able to point out the error.
Thanks for your help.

No problem. As craigsub pointed out, usually a sub's "native tune" is determined with no ports blocked, so that's why I said it that way. Anyway, are you any closer to figuring out what sub you're going to get?