No problem. As craigsub pointed out, usually a sub's "native tune" is determined with no ports blocked, so that's why I said it that way. Anyway, are you any closer to figuring out what sub you're going to get?

Definitely the VTF-2 MK3. And later down the line, I will add a 2nd one if needs be.

Hey Craig,

Are you the "Craig Chase" that is referred to in this thread?

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=27054

Are you in business with av123?

Thanks sherlock. I'm glad we've got a detective on the forums here to dig deep and make sense of a bunch of numbers that have been well documented, and explained on numerous occasions.

Craig may have be using av123 to help him bring to life an idea he had for a product. But as far as i can tell it doesn't go beyond that. Craig has been reviewing subwoofers from all over the place for quite some time and he works very hard to keep his results as objective as possible.

The MFW may have done well but look at what he reviewed in the past. Also, take a look at other user perceptions of this sub.
No need to start conspiracy theories around here. And really, a PM would have been much more appropriate.

Deputy Fife...LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

Well as one entraupenuer to another...I bid you good luck in your venture...

hey Craig, no chance of a headphone out?
what size will this amp be?
220v available? (i see that this has a DC power adapter)

Deputy Fife...LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

Well as one entraupenuer to another...I bid you good luck in your venture...

Thanks, I started first company at age 24, and 23 years later, am still plodding along. This little digital amp is going to be a fun piece.

For kicks, I am going to put one in my appx. 15,000 cubic foot heated, finished garage with a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls and the eD A7-900.

A $129 amp with $6000 worth of speakers and subwoofer ... :D

thanks Craig, please keep me in the loop re: the unit with headphone out and USB input. I want to reduce the clutter on my PC table. (replace the AV receiver with something smaller, but still with a subwoofer output)

A $129 amp with $6000 worth of speakers and subwoofer ... :D

In a garage no less. Some guys have all the luck. :cool:

Thanks sherlock. I'm glad we've got a detective on the forums here to dig deep and make sense of a bunch of numbers that have been well documented, and explained on numerous occasions.

Craig may have be using av123 to help him bring to life an idea he had for a product. But as far as i can tell it doesn't go beyond that. Craig has been reviewing subwoofers from all over the place for quite some time and he works very hard to keep his results as objective as possible.

The MFW may have done well but look at what he reviewed in the past. Also, take a look at other user perceptions of this sub.
No need to start conspiracy theories around here. And really, a PM would have been much more appropriate.


Woah, how is my question so inappropriate that I deserve ridicule? I'm a new guy to this forum, shopping for a sub, and I'm trying to consider the source of each review that I read.

If I'd been reading reviews from any independent reviewer for a while, then learned quite by accident that he had some sort of business relationship with a sub company, I'd be justifiably cautious when basing buying decisions on his reviews.

-- The above post was edited to remove the specifics from a hypothetical example --

Torsion,
I would agree with you, BUT, Craig has never rated another AV123 sub this high before(according to this list). There are many people on this forum that bought the new MFW-15 so when they receive them you can ask them. They also own other subs on the list.

Woah, how is my question so inappropriate that I deserve ridicule? I'm a new guy to this forum, shopping for a sub, and I'm trying to consider the source of each review that I read.

If I'd been reading reviews from Ilkka from HTS for a while, then learned quite by accident that he had some sort of business relationship with SVS, for example, I'd be justifiably cautious when basing buying decisions on his reviews.

Asking a question is reasonable, IF one has read the available material before asking said question. It was made very clear in the thread to which you linked that this product would not be an AV123 product.

None of my products will be AV123 products, nor will there be any cross ownership between AV123 and the new company.

We do have the LLC set up, and it is ready to go.

All I need to do is get the prototype here, make sure it is the quality I am told it is, and order producton started.

I am using this as the benchmark product :

http://www.partsexpress.com/images/300-956m.jpg

The Super T-amp ($139.97) is an upgraded, audiophile quality version of the popular T-amp. It features superior input and output connections, independent volume and power controls, an attractive brushed aluminum enclosure, improved circuit components, and includes a 12V AC adapter. The RCA input connectors allow the Super T-amp to be connected to any stereo component with standard RCA interconnect. For those who demand the highest quality of sound, use the included DC power cable to connect the amp directly to a 12V battery. The sound quality of this amplifier is truly outstanding, and will satisfy even the most critical listener. 10 watts RMS x 2 max into 8 ohms, 15 watts RMS x 2 max into 4 ohms. Dimensions: 7-1/4" H x 3-1/8" W x 7-1/2" D.
RCA line level inputs and binding post speaker outputs
Includes 12V DC power supply and cable for direct 12 V battery connection
Built in pop suppression and thermal/overload protection
Signal fidelity is equal to that of high-quality class AB amplifiers

I am being somewhat quiet until I actually get to check one out in person. We told the design guys what we wanted for performance and features, and THEY get all the fun. For the past 2 weeks, I have been getting all sorts of emails about how great the amp is. But until I get to try it, I am .... not 100% convinced.

This is somewhat quiet? :)

Since the bag that the cat was in is totally ripped open....what would be some of the applications for this size amp?

This is somewhat quiet? :)

Since the bag that the cat was in is totally ripped open....what would be some of the applications for this size amp?

The amp is going to have a subwoofer output, which, when hooked to a subwoofer, Highpasses to the satellites @ 100 Hz, and lowpasses from 100 and down to the sub.

Want an inexpensive system that can deliver 25 - 20,000 Hz into your den-kitchen-bedroom-dorm room-office- on the cheap ?

Since the bag that the cat was in is totally ripped open..

I find it helps to declaw cats before putting them in bags. Especially if said bag is made of plastic.

I think that amp is too shiny Craig, the foil it's on makes it look scuffed/dirty :)

I like hearing about the formation of this new company, as a founder/CEO of a struggling startup myself. Struggling that is, until we're in the air and raking in billions :)

Craig, can you give us a preview of where you're going with this? What's the product line going to look like? Should I save my subwoofer purchase for when you open shop? How about speakers?

I started a thread for discussing the new venture here: link (http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?p=517769#post517769)

Maybe I will have to register at av123 if I have any more questions, but for now I'll just say here - looks nice, looking forward to it.

And to get back on topic of subs.... 175$ sub - how many points can we expect? :D

I started a thread for discussing the new venture here: link (http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?p=517769#post517769)
So now it's okay to advertise another forum AND your own business here? :rolleyes:

Otherwise, looking forward to it. :)

Wow, this has turned into one nasty thread!:eek:

Maybe I will have to register at av123 if I have any more questions, but for now I'll just say here - looks nice, looking forward to it.

And to get back on topic of subs.... 175$ sub - how many points can we expect? :D

Even though I have not even seen the promised prototype, it gets 150 points. :D

So now it's okay to advertise another forum AND your own business here? :rolleyes:

Otherwise, looking forward to it. :)

I think Craig is trying to keep this particular thread on topic by steering other discussions not pertaining to subwoofers away. He's simply showing where those who are interested in learning about his new business ventures can continue to learn more, while keeping this thread focused on subwoofers (since this is the subwoofer forum).

EDIT: I guess Craig cleared this up before I was able to post! :cool:

Hi Mr. Personality ... I did not mention it here, and am trying to steer the topic away from it here. What is normal for you is you were perfectly ok with the topic being brought up by another poster, as long as it was negative.

If you will note, I don't even mention the company in the link. Nor does the link have any information about purchasing the product.

But, let's not let facts get in the way of your being petulant, ok ? :)
Craig,

I just wanted to point out that if someone else brakes the forum rules here (links to another forum, advertising etc.), YOU are always very quick to point them out. But when you do it, it seems to be okay. Why?

There has been a thread on AV123 in regards to this amplifier since 12-14-2007. That was 59 days ago.

Did I EVER mention this thread in those 59 days ?

No.

I did not start the discussion of this company here. Another poster opened the line of questions publically here, with a link to that thread. People started asking questions about the company and its products.

I started the new thread so interested people could take the conversation there. The thread in question offers no product for sale.
So if your nick is "craigsub" and you have a good enough reason, you can post links to other forums and advertise your own business. Point taken. ;)

....and has spent thousands of hours helping other.

Craig, Richard isn't worth your time. When I run in to types like this I state my position and then leave it. You have and your position is sensible.
Further wasting of your time and raising your heart rate isn't worth the trouble.

I also suggest a vaccine to help prevent future "outbreaks":
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/profile.php?do=editlist

Veris ... Well said, and you are right. The prescription was just filled. :D

Most of the posts in regards to the new company have been deleted... a few remain, including the one poking fun at my $175 subwoofer.

About six weeks ago, I was asked by a gentleman to test out his company's new subwoofer. I received a sample 3 weeks ago, and started with some informal listening tests 2 weeks ago.

It looks like a $500-$600 subwoofer ... curved sides, good sound ... etc ... but was disappointing because it only hits in the mid to upper 20's in bass response.

I just talked to him this morning ... and keep this in the context I had no idea what it was going to sell for.

I told him the other $500-$600 subs were getting into the upper teens - and this was not competitive.

As it turns out, he is planning on this sub selling for $299.

I promised him to complete the testing - and will be giving him some data for his own internal comparisons.

If he can tweak this a bit, there will be another nice $300 sub ... and no, it is not from any company we have had here yet.

OH ... and is it OK if we talk about subs ? :eek:

Woah, how is my question so inappropriate that I deserve ridicule? I'm a new guy to this forum, shopping for a sub, and I'm trying to consider the source of each review that I read.

If I'd been reading reviews from Ilkka from HTS for a while, then learned quite by accident that he had some sort of business relationship with SVS, for example, I'd be justifiably cautious when basing buying decisions on his reviews.I understand what you are saying, but Hometheatershack also has paid advertising from SVS and Axiom. Unless you have a member fee based forum free of any advertisers or potential external influences, there is alway the possibility for human bias in any review.

Craig has provided the opinions of himself and his listening panel combined with objective data to produce his scoring system. He's consistent in his methods, but I can understand why some have some reservations. I think this is why Craig's future GTG's will be such a success. They will bring together fanboys of all brands to provide their own opinions on blind listening to the various subs. I personally can't wait to hear that fanboy of Brand A preferred the musicality and palpability of Brand B. It will be fun :)

On your list (The Craigsub ranking) you have the: Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo: 88 points.

HSU told me that they do not offer the VTF-2 Mark3 with the turbo booster, and that the turbo booster was meant for the VTF-3 series.

Where did you get the one that you tested? If someone added the turbo to it, it obviously worked...right?

On your list (The Craigsub ranking) you have the: Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo: 88 points.

HSU told me that they do not offer the VTF-2 Mark3 with the turbo booster, and that the turbo booster was meant for the VTF-3 series.

Where did you get the one that you tested? If someone added the turbo to it, it obviously worked...right?

Hsu was recommending the Turbo to be used with the VTF-2.3 for a while. It is the same one as from the 3.3.

It is a pretty awkward install, and they stopped recommending it.

Hsu was recommending the Turbo to be used with the VTF-2.3 for a while. It is the same one as from the 3.3.

It is a pretty awkward install, and they stopped recommending it.

But is it possible though? Did it work?

But is it possible though? Did it work?

Yes on both counts ... but the slightest bump and the turbos get knocked out of the way.

Yes on both counts ... but the slightest bump and the turbos get knocked out of the way.

You mean like if a person were to bump it by accident, or when the sound is bumping? Thanks.

To be clear, Ilkka's testing is posted on HomeTheaterShack , not ***************.

... and it's very well done too! :)

You mean like if a person were to bump it by accident, or when the sound is bumping? Thanks.

You might have a situation where a bass spectacular moves it. You also need a spacer to put the Turbo on top of in order to reach the ports properly - otherwise, the unit sits too low.

Realistically, with the Hsu, If you are looking for an upgrade from the VTF-2.3 ... go with the 3.3 over trying the 2.3 with Turbo.

You might have a situation where a bass spectacular moves it. You also need a spacer to put the Turbo on top of in order to reach the ports properly - otherwise, the unit sits too low.

Realistically, with the Hsu, If you are looking for an upgrade from the VTF-2.3 ... go with the 3.3 over trying the 2.3 with Turbo.

I just didn't want to spend so much at once. Remember that my current sub is a $199 Onkyo?:o I am already looking at 3 times that...oh well.

blulover, it's always cheaper to buy the more expensive sub - no matter how contradicting that sounds.

i started with a 10" JBL HTIB sub. I made the mistake of going to online forums to ask if a 12" JBL E250P was an "upgrade".

Craig

if i may ask what sub would you recommend for about $500 to $600 dollars that does movies and music well..........

Thank you in advance for your response.........

blulover, it's always cheaper to buy the more expensive sub - no matter how contradicting that sounds.

i started with a 10" JBL HTIB sub. I made the mistake of going to online forums to ask if a 12" JBL E250P was an "upgrade".

Going through 7 subs in the last to years I can say AMEN Brother :).

I can proudly say I will stay at 7, I should have skipped 2-3-4-5 and 6 trying to save a buck.

blulover, it's always cheaper to buy the more expensive sub - no matter how contradicting that sounds.

Hell yeah, especially if its the epik knight.
Why are you restricting yourself to HSU, blulover? Can't afford to wait?

Going through 7 subs in the last to years I can say AMEN Brother :).

I can proudly say I will stay at 7, I should have skipped 2-3-4-5 and 6 trying to save a buck.

i also bought my first sub (not the HTIB sub) the year 2006 i think. but unfortunately, I have every single one of them up to now. I don't like selling stuff at a loss. :(

So now it's okay to advertise another forum AND your own business here? :rolleyes:

Otherwise, looking forward to it. :)

Everybody wave to Ilkka :)

Craig

if i may ask what sub would you recommend for about $500 to $600 dollars that does movies and music well..........

Thank you in advance for your response.........

In no particular order, look at Hsu, Elemental Designs, SVS, Epik, AV123 ...

Hell yeah, especially if its the epik knight.
Why are you restricting yourself to HSU, blulover? Can't afford to wait?

The hardest for me is not the price but the wait time. I love the Epik Knight and the eD A5 - 350 Subwoofer even more than the VTF-3 MK3, but I cannot wait for 2 months!

My room is 12x10
with floor to ceiling being 10 feet........




svs pb10

or

hsu vtf1

The hardest for me is not the price but the wait time. I love the Epik Knight and the eD A5 - 350 Subwoofer even more than the VTF-3 MK3, but I cannot wait for 2 months!

I have a feeling that you will enjoy the VTF-3, but in two months you'll think, "gee, I would have that A5-350 now...wonder what that must be like."

Two months is a long time. But ultimately it's short-sighted to avoid a purchase because of lead time. It might be 6-8 weeks today, but in two weeks it might have dropped down to just 3 weeks. Sounds like you're setting yourself up for buyer's remorse if you like the other two better, but feel you are "settling" for the VTF-3.

And although I have the A5-350, I know both the Epic and Hsu are great subs so I'm not trying to steer you away from the Hsu.

The hardest for me is not the price but the wait time. I love the Epik Knight and the eD A5 - 350 Subwoofer even more than the VTF-3 MK3, but I cannot wait for 2 months!

Epik used to have subs in stock, you should've been quicker! You might wanna consider another option I forgot to mention : mwf-15 in moho, $800 shipped, its $100 extra over the standart satin black, and it ships instantly, there's no wait. Pics here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13091107#post13091107

Craig,

The Elemental Designs A7-900 is very impressive! It's the top rated sub so far in your testing and it's capable of reproducing 113.5 dB @ 20 Hz.

VMPS claims their Larger Subwoofer can reproduce maximum undistorted output levels of 115 dB+ @ 1m at 20 Hz with 2.5% distortion. The -3 dB point is 17 Hz and it is 0 dB down at 20 Hz.

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/subwoofers.htm

I know that most high end subwoofers can only play a maximum of 100 dB, or less, at 20 Hz and are usually over 10% distortion.


I own a Larger Subwoofer and I have no way to confirm the specifications, but I can say that the VMPS Larger Subwoofer sounds VERY good and is less than half the price.

Seems no one on this forum is familiar with this sub, what a shame, this thing really rocks!!!

I would like to see if you could find the time do a review of this sub.


Thanks,

Bob

Craig,

The Elemental Designs A7-900 is very impressive! It's the top rated sub so far in your testing and it's capable of reproducing 113.5 dB @ 20 Hz.

VMPS claims their Larger Subwoofer can reproduce maximum undistorted output levels of 115 dB+ @ 1m at 20 Hz with 2.5% distortion. The -3 dB point is 17 Hz and it is 0 dB down at 20 Hz.

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/subwoofers.htm

I know that most high end subwoofers can only play a maximum of 100 dB, or less, at 20 Hz and are usually over 10% distortion.


I own a Larger Subwoofer and I have no way to confirm the specifications, but I can say that the VMPS Larger Subwoofer sounds VERY good and is less than half the price.

Seems no one on this forum is familiar with this sub, what a shame, this thing really rocks!!!

I would like to see if you could find the time do a review of this sub.


Thanks,

Bob

Bob, I would love to test a larger subwoofer. Who knows, maybe you can help out. I have the Parts Express version of the amp VMPS is selling on their site, so that part is handled.

I sent VMPS and John Casler an email, explaining how the process works (this was about 18 months ago), including that I would buy the subwoofer.

They responded that they only provided review samples to magazines with whom they were familiar.

Soooooooooooo ... I sent another email explaining I would BUY the subwoofer, and that I was quite familiar with their products, having owned a pair of Tower II SE's and an older subwoofer circa 1990.

They responded again that they provide review samples only to magazines with whom they are familiar.

I tried a third time to explain I would buy the subwoofer, if they could quote a price.

No answer this time.

It was pretty clear they did not bother reading the email, and were sending a generic response.

Strange, I don't know why they wouldn't, would only be good for their business...

They have a VERY high quality product.

So, why don't you just buy one? Or have a friend or relative do so?

Call them; I am sure they would sell you, or whoever, one...



;)

Strange, I don't know why they wouldn't, would only be good for their business...

They have a VERY high quality product.

So, why don't you just buy one? Or have a friend or relative do so?

I am sure they would sell you, or whoever, one...



;)

The answer is simple ... I let every company know what I am doing, in terms of the review.

Besides, I also, in the emails, ASKED to buy one.

If they cannot take the time to read an email, and come back with a price quote, then why should I go through the hassle of sending them my money ?

No anger, just a simple question.

i'd say they were afraid how their product would fare.

Yeah, it's a good thing that you are being upfront about the test.

I just can't understand why they wouldn't want it reviewed except by a magazine that they know. I guess it's a trust thing, and it is their right to do so, but I think it would do very well and it would only be great free advertising for them.

Have you tried to speak with them by phone?

i'd say they were afraid how their product would fare.

Have you heard this sub?

Much better than my uncles 18" Velodyne sub.

Nothing to be afraid of...

Yeah, it's a good thing that you are being upfront about the test.

I just can't understand why they wouldn't want it reviewed except by a magazine that they know. I guess it's a trust thing, and it is their right to do so, but I think it would do very well and it would only be great free advertising for them.

Have you tried to speak with them by phone?

It isn't that they are afraid, or not trusting the process - it was clear they did not bother reading the whole email.

They saw "review" and assumed I wanted a freebie. Rather than spend the whole 20 seconds reading the entire email, they went with an assumption and lost a sale.

My first VMPS purchase was in 1979 - a pair of 12 inch 3 way "bookshelf" speakers along the line of the JBL L-100's.

In my third email, I even offered my phone # if they wanted to talk. It is a toll free # to my office.

How much harder does a guy have to try ? :D

Have you heard this sub?

Much better than my uncles 18" Velodyne sub.

Nothing to be afraid of...

what was your uncle's velodyne 18"er?

nope I haven't. and by the way they handled that "business" ... never will.

i don't even know the specs. but if what you say is true ... that affirms my belief that since their rep/hype is so good, a 'bad' review will nullify all that unverified hype. we have quite a number of champions on craig's list. any good sub manufacturer would be afraid to match theirs with an entire list of good subs.

only provided review samples to magazines with whom they were familiar

define "familiar" :rolleyes:

edit: I define "bad review" as being whooped by cheaper alternatives in the list

I agree with Craig, the hardest thing in life is earning money. spending money should be a happy experience.

They responded that they only provided review samples to magazines with whom they were familiar.
Interpretation; They only provide review samples to magazines they advertise with and are guaranteed a positive review...;)

Why don't you please read some consumer reviews and do some research before you bad mouth a company and product you know nothing about.

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/subwoofers/vmps/PRD_120738_2741crx.aspx

The answer is simple ... I let every company know what I am doing, in terms of the review.

Besides, I also, in the emails, ASKED to buy one.

If they cannot take the time to read an email, and come back with a price quote, then why should I go through the hassle of sending them my money ?

No anger, just a simple question.

Sounds like they are afraid of something?

Bill

Interpretation; They only provide review samples to magazines they advertise with and are guaranteed a positive review...;)

Hey Mark ... I don't think this was the case, either. I think they just blew it off as someone looking for a freebie.

It is frustrating though, trying to get a price quote, and getting the same "form letter" looking response.

Why don't you please read some consumer reviews and do some research before you bad mouth a company and product you know nothing about.

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speak...8_2741crx.aspx

try to post the whole link.

it must hurt for someone to 'bad mouth' what you own and recommend. sorry.

Fixed it. :)


http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/subwoofers/vmps/PRD_120738_2741crx.aspx

I am just asking for someone to look at it objectively and give it a fair shot, that's all.


I only recommend it because I think it sounds GREAT and is an EXCELLENT value.

I am just asking for someone to look at it objectively and give it a fair shot, that's all.


I only recommend it because I think it sounds GREAT and is an EXCELLENT value.

And I would be happy to buy one, test it completely, and report the results.

Drop Brian a line, and see if he is interested. If he is, let me know, and I will call him.

I don't take this stuff personally. VMPS is still welcome here. :)

Craig,

Good to see you are back and talking about testing subs.

Craig,

Good to see you are back and talking about testing subs.

Thanks ... They will be different tests in the future - based around small GTG's we have here.

The tests as done over the past 18 months are done ... hopefully this new approach will keep this fun and also will provide useful info.

Why don't you please read some consumer reviews and do some research before you bad mouth a company and product you know nothing about.

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/subwoofers/vmps/PRD_120738_2741crx.aspx

I didn't "bad mouth" anyone...I was just joking as was evidenced by the 'wink' icon...Chill out...I am sure it is a fine subwoofer...:)

No problem. It's all good... :)

How good is a score of 43 for HT on a sub....

will it make things rattle and give u an umphhhh....

A sub with a score of 43 for HT will give you lots of "umphhhh".

--Regards,

Thank you for the response sir.........

my room is only 12x10 with 10' ceiling........

so i was thinking the svs pb10 would you recommend another...

would this sub be enough should i go bigger.......

would that av123 mfw be too much for this sized room.......

yes, you need a 45-48 to get an ooomph :)

Ok im confused...lol....

what sub would work with a room sized 12x10 10' floor to ceiling........

i wanna have a great bass when im watching a movie.....

any suggestions id appreciate....

Thank you for the response sir.........

my room is only 12x10 with 10' ceiling........

so i was thinking the svs pb10 would you recommend another...

would this sub be enough should i go bigger.......

would that av123 mfw be too much for this sized room.......

I have two PB10's in an 11x10x8 room and they are awesome. One would be more than enough in your room - I only have two because I like to be able to listen at reference levels. I can strongly recommend the PB10 for your small room. Shoot an e-mail to Ed Mullen at SVS and he'll make recommendations. Sure the MFW-15 will give much more impact than a PB10, but unless you're planning on listening at extremely high levels, the PB10 should be plenty.

If you want tons of impact, the PB12-NSD would be a significant step up from the PB10-NSD, and should certainly do the trick for you :).

Ok im confused...lol....

what sub would work with a room sized 12x10 10' floor to ceiling........

i wanna have a great bass when im watching a movie.....

any suggestions id appreciate....

is that room sealed to other areas?

if it is, the PB10NSD or anything ranked higher than that would be sufficient/plenty (depending on your taste)

Thanks lakersfan...........

i think too loud ....and again only as it pertains to me is annoying......

basically i just want to feel like im at the cinema in my small room.....

and as you say the svs pb10 should produce this....

thanks for the help........

luckyshot, there is a difference between "ooomph" and "umphhhh". The less powerful subwoofers will reach the state of "umphhhh" sooner than the more powerful subwoofers.

The SVS PB10 is a good subwoofer for use in a medium to small room. Solid bass extension to below 20 hz, reasonably good output and linearity and very low distortion. Very good option. This subwoofer should give you a reasonable dollop of "ooomph". Two of them should give you real "ooomph".

--Regards :),

thanks for your response ribbit.......


yea the room is four walls and a door to get out in case of a fire...lol....

Ok i understand now goneten.........


like i said i just wanna be in a cinema in my small room.....

thank you for your response........

Thanks lakersfan...........

i think too loud ....and again only as it pertains to me is annoying......

basically i just want to feel like im at the cinema in my small room.....

and as you say the svs pb10 should produce this....

thanks for the help........

No problem. As I said, I'm very happy with my PB10's. I'd still strongly recommend talking to Ed Mullen from SVS. He's extremely helpful, and will not only make recommendations on what sub to purchase, but can help you integrate it into your system (suggest placement options, settings, etc) so you get the most out of it.

No problem. As I said, I'm very happy with my PB10's. I'd still strongly recommend talking to Ed Mullen from SVS. He's extremely helpful, and will not only make recommendations on what sub to purchase, but can help you integrate it into your system (suggest placements, settings, etc) so you get the most out of it.


Lakersfan i will defintely do that ..........


Thank you..............

Craig .........


is the pb12-nsd score based on the old amp or the new and improved.....

thank you in advance for your response.......

Has anyone/craig heard the sunfire or carver subs? I'm curious what they compare too. In particular I'm interested in a 2.1 music application.

Thanks.

I was gonna splurge and get an mfw 15 but i spoke to jeff and he said for the size of my room if i got this sub id blow the room up and be left in ashes he recommended i wait for the xplosive to come out........

I hear Av123 has great products and although i havent tested them based on what craig says about the mfw 15 you cant go wrong.....

but i want to speak more for the guys honesty .......

he wasnt just trying to sell me anything and gave me an honest opinion....

i will defintely buy from them in the future.........

great job av123 and Jeff........

Craig .........


is the pb12-nsd score based on the old amp or the new and improved.....

thank you in advance for your response.......

That is the old amp ... I just have not had time to get to SVS so they can swap out the amp and check it over to make sure it is functioning as they see fit.

Rossnwendy tested the new amp at his place, and put the "new" PB12-NSD on a par with the HSU VTF-3.3 ... and Ross is pretty experienced at this stuff, I would not be surprised to find he is right. :)

Thank you Craig ............


appreciate your opinion

I've been following this incredibly invaluable thread for a few months, sometimes logging in everyday, just to read everything/absorbing/hopefully learning and laughing at the humour of those regular "subheads" who frequent this thread. Although I'm into sound, I'm no techie, but I sure do appreciate everyone's offerings!
I have an old M&K 12"-200w powered ported sub, (turned to the max. it's boomy as hell) w/ seven Mirage spkrs.(my front mains are M5si's), but next week I'm replacing them w/a pr. of Devore Gibbon Super 8's, have an older Onkyo TX-DS989/130 wpc 7.1 receiver ( the pre-amp section soon to be replaced w/an Integra DTC 9.8 pre/pro) w/ a Bryston 120 wpc stereo amp; patched in thru the mains, a sacd/dvd audio Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai and an old Sony Wega 32" CRT. Up here in Canada, the tv signals are still analogue, hopefully in 2009 I'll get one of those new "extreme" 1080p Pioneer Elite plasmas when all tv signals will be digital.
After reading most of what Craig has tested and/or listed I decided to splurge, as of last week, I just ordered the ALL:D North American made Epik Conquest::p...still shipped in 3-5 days although the rest of the Epik Line is back-ordered for at least 2 months.
My humble home is an artist's loft, it's sealed, approximately 50'x17.5'x18', or a total of 1088 sq. ft. one room in an open floor plan.
(Unfortunately Fed-Ex freight will be charging me $553 to ship this behometh to Vancouver, why does it always cost a small fortune to ship stuff from the US to Canada?:()
My problem? I'd like to ask those of you who have Conquests, where would be the best position for placement? (placement is very important as this thing weighs a ton.:eek:) I'll also probably purchase an Auralex gr8 gramma for my hardwood floors, and maybe my neighbours won't complain:o, maybe later on I'll get another Conquest :D
Thanks, Pat

P.S. and a huge THANK YOU to Craig, cause without this thread I would not have learned anything about subs let alone Epik Subs. Also I'm very glad to hear that you're going to continue to test subs in a GTG format.

Pat,

Step 1.....your neighbors will complain. :)

Step 2....placement depends a lot on the room itself. Some may speculate, but you usually have to move it around to find the best spot while running test CDs and measuring with a SPL meter.... I'll be glad to fly up to do this for you if you'd provide the plane ticket. :)

I was gonna splurge and get an mfw 15 but i spoke to jeff and he said for the size of my room if i got this sub id blow the room up and be left in ashes he recommended i wait for the xplosive to come out........

I hear Av123 has great products and although i havent tested them based on what craig says about the mfw 15 you cant go wrong.....

but i want to speak more for the guys honesty .......

he wasnt just trying to sell me anything and gave me an honest opinion....

i will defintely buy from them in the future.........

great job av123 and Jeff........

HI Luckyshot his name is Jess although when he answers the phone it does sound like he says Jeff. Just thought you would want to know his real name.

Welcome Pat,

Another Canadian & from Vancouver too!

Let us know how this sub sounds when you get it.

Better yet, can I stop by to see it/listen to it?:D:D

HI Luckyshot his name is Jess although when he answers the phone it does sound like he says Jeff. Just thought you would want to know his real name.


Thank you sir i stand corrected.......

Jess offers great customer service............

Bob, I would love to test a larger subwoofer. Who knows, maybe you can help out. I have the Parts Express version of the amp VMPS is selling on their site, so that part is handled.

I sent VMPS and John Casler an email, explaining how the process works (this was about 18 months ago), including that I would buy the subwoofer.

They responded that they only provided review samples to magazines with whom they were familiar.

Soooooooooooo ... I sent another email explaining I would BUY the subwoofer, and that I was quite familiar with their products, having owned a pair of Tower II SE's and an older subwoofer circa 1990.

They responded again that they provide review samples only to magazines with whom they are familiar.

I tried a third time to explain I would buy the subwoofer, if they could quote a price.

No answer this time.

It was pretty clear they did not bother reading the email, and were sending a generic response.

Hi Craig,

SleepySupra just pointed me to this thread.

I seem (in the recesses of my Gingko Biloba purged brain) remember you requesting (from me) a sample, but not a purchase.

I (as a dealer) am only happy to get you any of the VMPS subs.

Likely the response you received was from Brian, who is almost daily asked for samples for various shoot outs and or reviews, and he seldom responds favorably due to the risk and costs involved. VMPS is way to small to participate in most of those requests, since shipping alone on the LARGER sub might be over $150 (one way)

Plus he usually has a 3-4 week cue of orders to process making review samples on a line that has over 8 speaker models, and 5 Sub models difficult to spare.

The VMPS subs have a relatively good reputation, but are not specifically "HIGH OUTPUT" Home Theater subs, but more "HIGH END" Audio subs. To that end, they are more in the vein of low distortion than SPL's.

For example the new VLA sub (four 12" active and two 15" Passive radiators) we displayed in Vegas last January, while capable of 16Hz, was designed to accompany an Audiophile oriented system at $4960 each, in "suggested" stereo pairs.

Seldom is a sub shootout's focus on the Audiophile Capabilities. As you might know, with the VMPS bass system there is a bit of tuning involved to attain the lowest levels of distortion, and it takes a bit of time and listening to get how this is done.

Most reviews and shootouts are interested in a "plug and play" group of measurements.

So in any event, no one needs to have a brother in law, or relative purchase a sub, I am only too happy to help, feel free to call or contact me as to which sub and options you want to purchase, or for any info.

Sorry if there was any "mix-up" about that.

HI Luckyshot his name is Jess although when he answers the phone it does sound like he says Jeff. Just thought you would want to know his real name.


So how did his screen name become DenonJeff? (what we'll chat about while waiting for product):D

John - I will call you, for sure. Rest assured I have never asked for a subwoofer free ... but no worries, we will figure this out. :)

That is the old amp ... I just have not had time to get to SVS so they can swap out the amp and check it over to make sure it is functioning as they see fit.

Rossnwendy tested the new amp at his place, and put the "new" PB12-NSD on a par with the HSU VTF-3.3 ... and Ross is pretty experienced at this stuff, I would not be surprised to find he is right. :)

Which is the old amp?

And how does the SVS PB12 Plus compare with the VTF-3 MK3?

Which is the old amp?

And how does the SVS PB12 Plus compare with the VTF-3 MK3?

Craigsub's ranking for the PB12-NSD is using an old amp. SVS has since started using a new, improved amp with the PB12-NSD and it allegedly makes a significant difference for the better. So likely Craig's rankings put the PB12-NSD lower than it would be now.

As for the PB12 Plus, I'm surprised you're asking. Wasn't your budget maxed at $500 just a couple of days ago? The PB12 Plus is $1049 including shipping! If you're going to go SVS, the PB12-NSD will likely be your best price/performance option. It's almost $400 cheaper and isn't too far behind the PB12 Plus in performance.

If you're interested in SVS subs, e-mail Ed Mullen at SVS. He'll give you all the advice and recommendations you could possibly want. Good luck.

Craig...........

this is off topic but id appreciate your opinion........

im considering getting sierra 1 speakers across the front ......

i know you had them and tested them.......

would you highly recommend them.....?

Thank you........

Craigsub's ranking for the PB12-NSD is using an old amp. SVS has since started using a new, improved amp with the PB12-NSD and it allegedly makes a significant difference for the better. So likely Craig's rankings put the PB12-NSD lower than it would be now.

As for the PB12 Plus, I'm surprised you're asking. Wasn't your budget maxed at $500 just a couple of days ago? The PB12 Plus is $1049 including shipping! If you're going to go SVS, the PB12-NSD will likely be your best price/performance option. It's almost $400 cheaper and isn't too far behind the PB12 Plus in performance.

If you're interested in SVS subs, e-mail Ed Mullen at SVS. He'll give you all the advice and recommendations you could possibly want. Good luck.

I have been offered an open box PB12 Plus (About 1 year old) for under $750. I already decided on paying $799 shipped for the VTF-3 MK3. What would you do?
Is this SVC sub that good?

John Casler and I had a nice chat - and we will be getting a VMPS subwoofer here to test. :)

I have been offered an open box PB12 Plus (About 1 year old) for under $750. I already decided on paying $799 shipped for the VTF-3 MK3. What would you do?
Is this SVC sub that good?

For $750 I'd say it's worth it. Is that $750 out the door or $750 plus shipping from the seller? I'd still recommend talking to Ed Mullen if possible, but the PB12 Plus is a good sub and I think it'd do a good job for you.

For $750 I'd say it's worth it. Is that $750 out the door or $750 plus shipping from the seller? I'd still recommend talking to Ed Mullen if possible, but the PB12 Plus is a good sub and I think it'd do a good job for you.

That is the price shipped. Should I be concerned because it is a year old?

Would you take this over the eD A5-350?

That is the price shipped. Should I be concerned because it is a year old?

Would you take this over the eD A5-350?

It'll look a lot nicer than the A5-350, but the eD should probably be a better performer. I've been under the impression you don't want to wait the 2+ months to get an eD, Epik, or AV123. If time isn't of the essence, you might be better off waiting a bit, but if you want one soon, the PB12-NSD (or the Plus at $750) would be my choices.

It'll look a lot nicer than the A5-350, but the eD should probably be a better performer. I've been under the impression you don't want to wait the 2+ months to get an eD, Epik, or AV123. If time isn't of the essence, you might be better off waiting a bit, but if you want one soon, the PB12-NSD (or the Plus at $750) would be my choices.


Lakersfan .........

i talked to eric at svs and decided to go with the svs pb12 nsd ....

i think it will be great.....especially in my room....

Thanks for the help......

Lakersfan .........

i talked to eric at svs and decided to go with the svs pb12 nsd ....

i think it will be great.....especially in my room....

Thanks for the help......

Very cool. PM me when you get it and let me know what you think :)

It'll look a lot nicer than the A5-350, but the eD should probably be a better performer. I've been under the impression you don't want to wait the 2+ months to get an eD, Epik, or AV123. If time isn't of the essence, you might be better off waiting a bit, but if you want one soon, the PB12-NSD (or the Plus at $750) would be my choices.

In your opinion, taking the new SVS amp, is the PB12-NSD a stronger performer than the VTF-3.3? or are they comparable?

Very cool. PM me when you get it and let me know what you think :)

Defintely will.........

if i may ask a question .... im thinking about putting the sub behind me...

in a corner but theres a bookshelf about a foot in front of it....

will this eefect it ....and should i find a better spot or do u think it will work well there....

.

Seldom is a sub shootout's focus on the Audiophile Capabilities. As you might know, with the VMPS bass system there is a bit of tuning involved to attain the lowest levels of distortion, and it takes a bit of time and listening to get how this is done.

Most reviews and shootouts are interested in a "plug and play" group of measurements.



Hi John. Could explain exactly what you mean by "Audiophile Capabilities" and expand on how some of the subs that test well with "plug and play" might lack these?

John Casler and I had a nice chat - and we will be getting a VMPS subwoofer here to test. :)

Wow, great news. I've been wondering about those VMPS Monsters for about 2 decades now :)

Hey Juiceblrc,

I called Dale Chuypers last Thursday and ordered a Conquest, he replied that it would be sent out by the end of this week, but I haven't heard from Epik since. I kinda anticipate getting that monster either the end of next week or the beginning of the last week in February. Sure Juiceblrc, for another AVS member? if and when it arrives ! maybe you can shoot me your contact number, BTW...what's your real name?

Cheers,
Pat

That is the price shipped. Should I be concerned because it is a year old?

Would you take this over the eD A5-350?

BluLover, if you want a sub now and if we are to respect the ranking on the first page of this thread, the best option seems to be MWF-15 in moho, which doesn't have a lead time and costs $700+$100 for shipping

BluLover, if you want a sub now and if we are to respect the ranking on the first page of this thread, the best option seems to be MWF-15 in moho, which doesn't have a lead time and costs $700+$100 for shipping

What do you mean? Are you saying that it is available to buy right now? from where?

Hey Pat,

I sent you a private message. Thanks in advance.

Denis

What do you mean? Are you saying that it is available to buy right now? from where?

He was talking about the MFW-15 in the moho satin finish which is $100 extra the website shoes an est delivery date of April on all other finishes. It doesn't state april on the moho satin finish so if you're interested give them a call to be sure.

oh, ps, the only place to get it is at the av123 website.

How could you have doubts that I was talking about moho after reading my post?
Yes it is available now without wait, lots of people already got theirs and posted pictures

He was talking about the MFW-15 in the moho satin finish which is $100 extra the website shoes an est delivery date of April on all other finishes. It doesn't state april on the moho satin finish so if you're interested give them a call to be sure.

oh, ps, the only place to get it is at the av123 website.

OMG!!!

I had it set to Satin Black and thought that they were all out!!!

THANKS GUYS, THANKS A LOT!!!

Anyone have some kind of promotional code?

How could you have doubts that I was talking about moho after reading my post?
Yes it is available now without wait, lots of people already got theirs and posted pictures

THANKS MAN!!!

OMG!!!

I had it set to Satin Black and thought that they were all out!!!

THANKS GUYS, THANKS A LOT!!!

Anyone have some kind of promotional code?

promotional code on a product that is so backordered they won't be caught up till at least april, good luck with that.

I'm torn between James EMB-1000 and HSU vtf - 2 MK 3. Which would be your pick?

I'm torn between James EMB-1000 and HSU vtf - 2 MK 3. Which would be your pick?

The James may be a great sounding small sub, but don't expect deep bass from it. It's tuned in the low 30hz range and it's response drops off rapidly below 30hz.

Says here it is tuned to 20Hz???
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.audioreview.com/channels/audioreview/images/products/product_325915.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.audioreview.com/PLS_2741_740crx.aspx&h=175&w=175&sz=5&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=TYt7LJGk-IxejM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3DJames%2BEMB-1000%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

Says here it is tuned to 20Hz???
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.audioreview.com/channels/audioreview/images/products/product_325915.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.audioreview.com/PLS_2741_740crx.aspx&h=175&w=175&sz=5&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=TYt7LJGk-IxejM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3DJames%2BEMB-1000%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN


Down 5 db at 20Hz is not a very good spec.

Says here it is tuned to 20Hz???
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.audioreview.com/channels/audioreview/images/products/product_325915.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.audioreview.com/PLS_2741_740crx.aspx&h=175&w=175&sz=5&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=TYt7LJGk-IxejM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3DJames%2BEMB-1000%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

Take a good look at this lab test here:
http://www.hemagazine.com/Measurements/2003/September-October-2003-Issue/James-Loudspeakers-EMB-1000-Subwoofer-Measurements.asp

Make sure to click on the graph.

OK, U guys are suggesting a HSU would be a better purchase. Thanks

Veydawn, how would you describe your listening habits? Music? Movies? Both? I suspect the James sub would sound great with music, but might come up a little short in the deep bass department with movies that have very deep bass in their soundtracks.

OMG!!!

I had it set to Satin Black and thought that they were all out!!!

THANKS GUYS, THANKS A LOT!!!

Anyone have some kind of promotional code?

You get a deal if you order 2. :)

promotional code on a product that is so backordered they won't be caught up till at least april, good luck with that.

The sucker is sold out! They said that they had not upgraded the site. ETA is still in April.

Has anyone/craig heard the sunfire or carver subs? I'm curious what they compare too. In particular I'm interested in a 2.1 music application.

Thanks.

I owns a Sunfire Carver Signature (EQ) sub (along with a few others including a HSU STF-3) and it is absolutely an outstanding 'rocket-in-a-pocket' kind of sub.

Here is how I would characterize its strength and weakness:

Pros:
* Small size (I have mine hiding under an end table)
* Good looks/High WAF (Got mine in cherry finish and its sleek).
* Truly usable output down to teen hz (with room gain)
* Auto calibration/EQ function

Cons:
* Price (much more expensive compared to a similar or better performing ID offering).
* It absolutely rocks with HT/LFE application but I find it non-transparent with music (I could locate the sub due to bore strokes sound being non-blended with some tracks). But it could be just my room/setup combo.

Bottom Line:
If you have room and could accommodate a larger sub, you have plenty of options to consider. However if small size and look/finish matter to you, then definitely give them a shot or check out JL F112/113's.

Hey Juiceblrc,

I called Dale Chuypers last Thursday and ordered a Conquest, he replied that it would be sent out by the end of this week, but I haven't heard from Epik since. I kinda anticipate getting that monster either the end of next week or the beginning of the last week in February. Sure Juiceblrc, for another AVS member? if and when it arrives ! maybe you can shoot me your contact number, BTW...what's your real name?

Cheers,
Pat



I hate to be nosey! but im also in vancouver:p and would love the chance to see / hear a conquest sometime. coming from an SVS pb12 NSD id be curious as to what sort of difference there would be in quality and everything else. I sold the SVS so I'm looking for a new sub right now - I like the sound quality of the ML abyss but it wouldnt have the output or extension of the conquest for obvious reasons.

Which would be the best as far as HT is concerned?

Which would be the best as far as HT is concerned?

Pb12 meets vtf2 big brother vft3 in performance. For HT PB12 is a no brainer.

Hope the impressions in the following link will help

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12685154#post12685154

How about the PB12 NSD for music? How far behind the SB12 would it be?

Have you had time to check out and review the NEW SVS PB12-NSD sub with the new and improved amp?

Some say that is is comparable, and even surpasses the VTF-3 MK3 in certain aspects.

Have you had time to check out and review the NEW SVS PB12-NSD sub with the new and improved amp?

Some say that is is comparable, and even surpasses the VTF-3 MK3 in certain aspects.

Craig has answered similar question from somebody else

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13099054#post13099054

Truly usable output down to teen hz (with room gain)

I don't believe this. It sounds as if you are making frivolous claims to me. Room gain will not have an impact at "teen hz" unless your room is the size of a gymnasium.

--Regards,

I don't believe this. It sounds as if you are making frivolous claims to me. Room gain will not have an impact at "teen hz" unless your room is the size of a gymnasium.

--Regards,

Do you consider a single room dimension of 30' to be "the size of a gymnasium"? With either a 30' long or 30' wide room, you'll have a mode at ~18.8 Hz.

Craig has answered similar question from somebody else

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13099054#post13099054

Thanks for the link.

There are a couple issues with that. For one, Ross compared our first run VTF-3 Mk3, and our VTF subwoofers have been improved since then to have even flatter and more linear response. Secondly, Ross has a relatively small sealed room with no openings. So even if a subwoofer is 6-7db down in the deeper bass compared to the mid/upper bass when measured outside, the room gain in the well enclosed relatively small room will help flatten out the frequency response. In a larger room with openings, the situation can be quite different with much less room gain. In this type of circumstance, the Mk3 would tend to have a flatter in-room frequency response.

Thanks drnaive. I've PMed you with other questions.

If any of you are looking for a very "musical "sub with dual 10s, 250watt plate amp and real rosewood veneer, look no further than the Swan Sub10..... i forgot to mention the best part, it is CHEAP! It has good low frequency extension, low distortion and with excellent output. Check it out....

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_30&products_id=53

If any of you are looking for a very "musical "sub with dual 10s, 250watt plate amp and real rosewood veneer..... i forgot to mention the best part, it is CHEAP! It has good low frequency extension, low distortion and with excellent output. Check it out....

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_30&products_id=53

From the specs on the page, it only goes down to 33hz. Not a bargain!

Bill

Says here it is tuned to 20Hz???
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.audioreview.com/channels/audioreview/images/products/product_325915.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.audioreview.com/PLS_2741_740crx.aspx&h=175&w=175&sz=5&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=TYt7LJGk-IxejM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3DJames%2BEMB-1000%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

Take a good look at this lab test here:
http://www.hemagazine.com/Measurements/2003/September-October-2003-Issue/James-Loudspeakers-EMB-1000-Subwoofer-Measurements.asp

Make sure to click on the graph.

Down 5 db at 20Hz is not a very good spec.

Veydawn, how would you describe your listening habits? Music? Movies? Both? I suspect the James sub would sound great with music, but might come up a little short in the deep bass department with movies that have very deep bass in their soundtracks.

Hi mojomike, I listen to quite alot of what u call here 'Techno'. I call it progressive house. Album mixes by Dave Seaman, James Lavelle, Nick Warren, Sasha and John Digweed.. Deepdish. Of mainstream, I listen to Diana Krall, Feist, Lily Allen, Sarah McLachlan ... Sigur Ros.

I'm using PSB Image T55 with Yamaha RXV-1800. Music played by NAD C525BEE. At times I find the bass is kinda overwhelming but the mid bass is kinda muddy. I was thinking of getting a HSU to handle deep bass by having a higher crossover. Will this work well?

Hi mojomike, I listen to quite alot of what u call here 'Techno'. I call it progressive house. Album mixes by Dave Seaman, James Lavelle, Nick Warren, Sasha and John Digweed.. Deepdish. Of mainstream, I listen to Diana Krall, Feist, Lily Allen, Sarah McLachlan ... Sigur Ros.

I'm using PSB Image T55 with Yamaha RXV-1800. Music played by NAD C525BEE. At times I find the bass is kinda overwhelming but the mid bass is kinda muddy. I was thinking of getting a HSU to handle deep bass by having a higher crossover. Will this work well?

I take from your answer that music only, not movies, is what the system is used for. If the bass is muddy and heavy with no sub, it is most likely due to a combination of speaker placement, room acoustics, and seating position. If the speakers are near corners, try to move them away from the corners and pull them further out from the walls. If your seating area is near the back wall. move it forward if you can. Also, try plugging the ports on your speakers. That may give you a better frequency response in your particular room. Try these things before you even get a sub.

It's unusual to get a sub for the purpose of reducing muddiness or excess bass from your main speakers, but it is possible to do just that by choosing carefully the placement of the sub and by careful calibration. You will most likely in this case keep the sub away from the corners and place it in between the front speakers.

As far as choosing the best crossover, wait until you actually have the sub to determine that through experimentation.

Bass traps too.


Tim

Hi mojomike, I listen to quite alot of what u call here 'Techno'. I call it progressive house. Album mixes by Dave Seaman, James Lavelle, Nick Warren, Sasha and John Digweed.. Deepdish.

I would just like to say....thank you...time to listen to some Digweed. I've got a friend with pretty much every GU, every Sasha album, every Digweed, etc. Hell, the kid even has Cowpander.

Other than that, I'd say listen to Mike. Good suggestions.

I take from your answer that music only, not movies, is what the system is used for. If the bass is muddy and heavy with no sub, it is most likely due to a combination of speaker placement, room acoustics, and seating position. If the speakers are near corners, try to move them away from the corners and pull them further out from the walls. If your seating area is near the back wall. move it forward if you can. Also, try plugging the ports on your speakers. That may give you a better frequency response in your particular room. Try these things before you even get a sub.

It's unusual to get a sub for the purpose of reducing muddiness or excess bass from your main speakers, but it is possible to do just that by choosing carefully the placement of the sub and by careful calibration. You will most likely in this case keep the sub away from the corners and place it in between the front speakers.

As far as choosing the best crossover, wait until you actually have the sub to determine that through experimentation.

Sorry, I had missed out something else. This setup is also for movies. Yeah I would experiment with the sub placement. Regarding bass muddiness or excess, I was thinking by using HSU sub to handle bass output/ sound would be tighter or defined and allow PSB speakers to fully concentrate its work on midbass. Again by careful calibration with crossover. Am i making sense? Yeah, this is my first setup purchase.

You catching on to one of the advantages of adding a powered sub to your setup. It can allow your mains to play mid and upper bass more clearly by relieving them and your receiver from having to handle deeper bass.

Craigsub

Great analysis on subwoofers. Thansk a lot, you have saved me a lot of time and perhaps mistakes...

By the way, do you have available something like this but for speakers?

thansks

Any opinions on where the Def Tech SuperCube Reference would place on craigslist. Seems like an awesome sub not many people talk about it here.

I would just like to say....thank you...time to listen to some Digweed. I've got a friend with pretty much every GU, every Sasha album, every Digweed, etc. Hell, the kid even has Cowpander.

Other than that, I'd say listen to Mike. Good suggestions.


For the first time in a long time, I'm feeling at home. Being from NYC I had the opportunity to enjoy Sasha & Digweed's music in what (IMHO) was the best place to listen to their creations...."Twilo".

Sasha & Digweed considered Twilo their home in NYC. It was this place that made me appreciate the sound of bass. Last I heard the sound system at this legendry club was up for sale for a cool 1/4 million. I'm not sure is this is a lot for a professional sound system, but I can assure everyone here that I have never head anything like it......ever. I've been to Vegas, L.A., South Beach, etc. and had the opportunity to listen to world class DJ's at multiple venues and have never really experienced what Twilo offered.

If my A5 can reproduce 1/4 of this sensation in my 2000 cubit foot room, I will be in heaven.

Any opinions on where the Def Tech SuperCube Reference would place on craig's list. Seems like an awesome sub not many people talk about it here.

"Craigslist" changed to avoid legal issues ... :D

I have heard one at the Def Tech store near here, and it is a terrific sub ... it sounds like a smaller Trinity, to be expected.

There is at least one more ... We are ordering the Very Solid Sub from VMPS ... pictures and specs below:

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/pics/VSS-ebony.jpg

The VSS (Very Solid Sub) is slightly smaller than the Larger Sub but very stout and heavy, 5 cm (2") thick baffles, and built-in 1000W amp with electronic crossover and single-band parametric EQ which allows the user to notch out the floor-to-ceiling room mode (71Hz with an 8ft ceiling). Our new 38 cm (15") active driver is low mass and high acceleration, with a huge motor and very heavy, Dynamat damped stamped basket. Cone is a vitrified paper/Kevlar laminate. There is also a 38 cm mass-loaded passive radior in slot loading.

The VSS is zero dB down at 20Hz and will reproduce subsonics (-10dB/14Hz nearfield). Weight is 72 kg (160 lbs), of which 10 kg (22 lbs) is the driver. Dimensions are 76 W x 58 H x 46 D cm (30”W x 23”H x 18”D). The VSS is $1650 per each.

This is great! I have been hoping that you would review a VMPS sub. My interest has been stirred by the forum sites that include this line of speakers and subs. It's always good to see a review by another objective point of view.

Does anyone else think the VSS is one of the....lets see how I can put this and not get banned from the forum.... most striking when it comes to style. :)

Does anyone else think the VSS is one of the....lets see how I can put this and not get banned from the forum.... most striking when it comes to style. :)

That ebony finish is really attractive, for sure. Based on the price, I would think that it vs. the Ultra will be the perfect one on one.

The VSS is zero dB down at 20Hz and will reproduce subsonics (-10dB/14Hz nearfield). Weight is 72 kg (160 lbs), of which 10 kg (22 lbs) is the driver. Dimensions are 76 W x 58 H x 46 D cm (30”W x 23”H x 18”D). The VSS is $1650 per each.

I'm surprised the driver is only 22 lbs. I know the Ultra's thirteen weighs in at close to 60 lbs (just the driver and motor).

That must be one heavy box. The driver only weighs 22 pounds and yet the sub is 160 pounds. I am sure that some others like the looks of that sub, but to me it looks like a Walnut stained piece of plywood and people talk about the ED sub being ugly.

If my A5 can reproduce 1/4 of this sensation in my 2000 cubit foot room, I will be in heaven.Cubits? Heaven? Totally biblical, dude :D

That must be one heavy box. The driver only weighs 22 pounds and yet the sub is 160 pounds. I am sure that some others like the looks of that sub, but to me it looks like a Walnut stained piece of plywood and people talk about the ED sub being ugly.

Yeah it looks butt ugly to me as well, but it could be just a bad picture and it might look great. I remember several speaker pictures that looked ugly but then on other pictures the same speakers looked top class.

Does anyone else think the VSS is one of the....lets see how I can put this and not get banned from the forum.... most striking when it comes to style. :)

It has the pirate look to it.

SURRENDER THE BOOTY!!!!

Splotto

Does anyone else think the VSS is one of the....lets see how I can put this and not get banned from the forum.... most striking when it comes to style. :)

You can safely put it curbside and no one will look at it (let alone touching) :D

There is at least one more ... We are ordering the Very Solid Sub from VMPS ... pictures and specs below:

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/pics/VSS-ebony.jpg

The VSS (Very Solid Sub) is slightly smaller than the Larger Sub but very stout and heavy, 5 cm (2") thick baffles, and built-in 1000W amp with electronic crossover and single-band parametric EQ which allows the user to notch out the floor-to-ceiling room mode (71Hz with an 8ft ceiling). Our new 38 cm (15") active driver is low mass and high acceleration, with a huge motor and very heavy, Dynamat damped stamped basket. Cone is a vitrified paper/Kevlar laminate. There is also a 38 cm mass-loaded passive radior in slot loading.

The VSS is zero dB down at 20Hz and will reproduce subsonics (-10dB/14Hz nearfield). Weight is 72 kg (160 lbs), of which 10 kg (22 lbs) is the driver. Dimensions are 76 W x 58 H x 46 D cm (30”W x 23”H x 18”D). The VSS is $1650 per each.

VMPS needs to get their facts straight otherwise they are contradicting themselves.

If you look at the descriptions of the Larger Sub, the claimed that none of VMPS subs has a built-in amp. And here they are, building the VSS with the 1000W amp built-in.

They need to go back and redo their ads.

There is at least one more ... We are ordering the Very Solid Sub from VMPS ... pictures and specs below:

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/pics/VSS-ebony.jpg

The VSS (Very Solid Sub) is slightly smaller than the Larger Sub but very stout and heavy, 5 cm (2") thick baffles, and built-in 1000W amp with electronic crossover and single-band parametric EQ which allows the user to notch out the floor-to-ceiling room mode (71Hz with an 8ft ceiling). Our new 38 cm (15") active driver is low mass and high acceleration, with a huge motor and very heavy, Dynamat damped stamped basket. Cone is a vitrified paper/Kevlar laminate. There is also a 38 cm mass-loaded passive radior in slot loading.

The VSS is zero dB down at 20Hz and will reproduce subsonics (-10dB/14Hz nearfield). Weight is 72 kg (160 lbs), of which 10 kg (22 lbs) is the driver. Dimensions are 76 W x 58 H x 46 D cm (30”W x 23”H x 18”D). The VSS is $1650 per each.

VMPS needs to get their facts straight otherwise they are contradicting themselves.

If you look at the descriptions of the Larger Sub, they claimed that none of VMPS subs has a built-in amp. And here they are, building the VSS with the 1000W amp built-in.

They need to go back and redo their ads.

VMPS needs to get their facts straight otherwise they are contradicting themselves.

If you look at the descriptions of the Larger Sub, the claimed that none of VMPS subs has a built-in amp. And here they are, building the VSS with the 1000W amp built-in.

They need to go back and redo their ads.

The info on the Larger sub goes back to the 1980's ... I am serious. They have not updated most of the info since then.

Brian Cheney is an audio genius, but not much in the marketing department.

Yes, they are contradicting themselves, but mostly because of the quirky nature of the company, and definitely not because they are trying to mislead anyone.

The info on the Larger sub goes back to the 1980's ... I am serious. They have not updated most of the info since then.

Brian Cheney is an audio genius, but not much in the marketing department.

Yes, they are contradicting themselves, but mostly because of the quirky nature of the company, and definitely not because they are trying to mislead anyone.

I definitely did not take it as misleading. To me the look of the sub is dated and I figured that the info was also old. I will say one thing if the sub has what it takes, then nobody will notice the looks in a dedicated HT room.

I definitely did not take it as misleading. To me the look of the sub is dated and I figured that the info was also old. I will say one thing if the sub has what it takes, then nobody will notice the looks in a dedicated HT room.

The VSS is one of their newer subs ... and uses the Parts Express 1000 watt amp ... The actual enclosure is done by Sound Art China, so it may look a little better than the pic suggests.

The info on the Larger Sub is what is outdated.

And, for clarity, VMPS did announce, when the VSS and VLA were introduced, that the Parts Express amp is "worthy" of being used.

So ... when it arrives, look for plenty of pics, and also for it to get a thorough listen against some stout competition. :)

is it just me, or does that 15" look very similar to the 15 in the MFW15?

On vmps site there is a pretty strong bashing of amps used in powered subwoofers. Makes me wonder how good the keiga amp in my ed sub is.
is it just me, or does that 15" look very similar to the 15 in the MFW15?
Yeah similar but not the same. The dustcap on the mwf-15 driver is bigger

On vmps site there is a pretty strong bashing of amps used in powered subwoofers. Makes me wonder how good the keiga amp in my sub is.


Plate amps are very good. You should get at least 10 years out of your plate amp. The new Top of The Line VMPS Subwoofer has a built in amp, ( if the specs are correct.)
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/231/scr2ff1aedl3.th.jpg (http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scr2ff1aedl3.jpg)

$4,950

On vmps site there is a pretty strong bashing of amps used in powered subwoofers. Makes me wonder how good the keiga amp in my ed sub is.


Gents ... You really need to understand VMPS as a company if you are going to participate in this conversation with up to date information.

VMPS handles the majority of its product information updates on Audio Circle.

To help out, here is a little history of VMPS, in regards to subwoofers:

1. VMPS has been making subwoofers since the very early 1980's.

2. From the early 80's until February, 2005, VMPS would recommend one use a dedicated outboard amp rather than the "plate amps" available at the time.

Adcom 555 bridged to mono and Pro Amps were a typical suggestion.

3. On February 10, 2005, VMPS announced the "approval" of the new amp - which Parts Express also sells - and the information was posted on Audio Circle by Brian Cheney:

We have finally found an amp for our woofers!

500W rms/8 Ohms
1000Wrms/4 Ohms
Elec. xover 30Hz-200Hz at 12dB
single band parametric EQ 20 to 80Hz, adj. Q from .1 to 1.0
Encapsulated and damped with Dynamat for in-cabinet installation
Class AB output stage with high efficiency downconverting power supply
excellent sound quality

Best part: price is $400! (add $17 shipping)

This amp is also available for the same price from Part Express, but we add a 13ft heavy-duty RCA interconnect and Dynamat on the capsule.

The amp can be bolted to the back baffle of any VMPS sub or installed inside (10" sq cutout required).

If you're ordering any sub we'll cut the hole for the amp and install at no extra charge, and with free shipping.

Hope this pleases a lot of folks.

The issue with plate amps up to that point was not reliability, but rather that Brian did not think they had the necessary performance to drive his subwoofers properly.

There was a time that Brian was also selling (if memory serves) a Soundcraftsmen amp to drive the original and larger subwoofer ... I am going back 20 years.

Getting back to the VMPS lineup as it stands today ... the VSS is really the "modern" version of the old larger subwoofer - in fact, the VSS driver is being offered as an upgrade to the older sub.

The VSS sells for $1650 WITH the Parts Express amp ... and $1250 without.

I hope this clears up a few things about the apparently contradicting positions on VMPS's site. :)

The VSS is one of their newer subs ... and uses the Parts Express 1000 watt amp ... The actual enclosure is done by Sound Art China, so it may look a little better than the pic suggests.

The info on the Larger Sub is what is outdated.

And, for clarity, VMPS did announce, when the VSS and VLA were introduced, that the Parts Express amp is "worthy" of being used.

So ... when it arrives, look for plenty of pics, and also for it to get a thorough listen against some stout competition. :)

I guess I should have been more specific. I was referring to the larger sub. :)

I guess I should have been more specific. I was referring to the larger sub. :)

No worries ... Trying to follow their logic is not the easiest thing to do. There really are specs on the larger subwoofer which go back 20 years, including the "no plate amp" stuff.

I actually bought my first pair of VMPS speakers in 1979, as a college freshman - a pair of 12 inch, 3 way, 1970's style "Bookshelf" speakers, similar to the JBL L-100 and L-110's in size .. and have owned subs, 2 pairs of floorstanders, and centers/surrounds since then.

You haven't lived until you have played with the passive radiator putty to fine tune the bass. :D

We are about the same age, I was a freshman in 78. My first pair of real speakers (built my first two pairs) were Yamaha NS 690's. I still have these speakers and they are in excellent shape. I replaced the foam on the 12" drivers several years ago. I brought the 690's out of retirement last year and am currently using them in my upstairs HT room.

Craig, you should add the VMPS sub to the list of pending subwoofers on the main post.

Gents ... You really need to understand VMPS as a company if you are going to participate in this conversation with up to date information.

VMPS handles the majority of its product information updates on Audio Circle.

To help out, here is a little history of VMPS, in regards to subwoofers:

1. VMPS has been making subwoofers since the very early 1980's.

2. From the early 80's until February, 2005, VMPS would recommend one use a dedicated outboard amp rather than the "plate amps" available at the time.

Adcom 555 bridged to mono and Pro Amps were a typical suggestion.

3. On February 10, 2005, VMPS announced the "approval" of the new amp - which Parts Express also sells - and the information was posted on Audio Circle by Brian Cheney:



The issue with plate amps up to that point was not reliability, but rather that Brian did not think they had the necessary performance to drive his subwoofers properly.

There was a time that Brian was also selling (if memory serves) a Soundcraftsmen amp to drive the original and larger subwoofer ... I am going back 20 years.

Getting back to the VMPS lineup as it stands today ... the VSS is really the "modern" version of the old larger subwoofer - in fact, the VSS driver is being offered as an upgrade to the older sub.

The VSS sells for $1650 WITH the Parts Express amp ... and $1250 without.

I hope this clears up a few things about the apparently contradicting positions on VMPS's site. :)

Most plate amplifiers are Class-D. For years Class-D amplifiers have been known to sound very bad, that's why they are used mostly for car audio and home audio subwoofer amps.

I use a Soundcraftsmen PCR800 to drive my four ohm VMPS Larger Subwoofer.

I can see why Brian recommended Soundcraftsmen amplifiers.

My PCR800, bridged mono driving a four ohm load, sounds VERY good. The sound is warm and detailed and the amp never runs hot or runs out of headroom... :)

We are about the same age, I was a freshman in 78. My first pair of real speakers (built my first two pairs) were Yamaha NS 690's. I still have these speakers and they are in excellent shape. I replaced the foam on the 12" drivers several years ago. I brought the 690's out of retirement last year and am currently using them in my upstairs HT room.

You guys are just kids.;):D I have a pair of AR 4X's which I purchased in 1968. They are the first real speakers I ever bought and I was a sophomore in high school at that time. They are currently stored away waiting to be restored. The cabinets need some minor work, the original grills are still intact and except for a bad tweeter the drivers are fine, but they will be exchanged with original replacements. I rebuilt my Advent 5002's about two years ago and use them for my HT. I just happen to like the sound of those old Kloss speaker systems. Those old Yami's are great speakers. Very accurate. Enjoy!

Ian

Most plate amplifiers are Class-D. For years Class-D amplifiers have been known to sound very bad, that's why they are used mostly for car audio and home audio subwoofer amps.

Class D amplifiers tend to sound poor on high frequencies. Although their are now some very nice sounding full frequency amplifiers available. Rotel has several that are dynamite.

EDIT: CADOBHuK PM'd with explaination.

Class D amplifiers tend to sound poor on high frequencies.

Yup.

From which frequency up do they sound poor?

You can read up on Class D switching amplifiers here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_amplifier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switching_amplifier

I didnt find an answer to my question in those articles

Guys ... We were dealing with the opinion of Brian Cheney, and why he had elected for years to go with an outboard amp, rather than the plate amps available at the time. The reasons were given, and it is time to move on.

Please, take the amp discussion to another thread. Thank You. :)

Hi, Craig and everyboy else contributing in this great post. I'm pretty much a newbie (but read this forum almost every day trying to catch up!) and I need help improving my current setup.
My room size is 25x13x9 and I currently own an Onkyo 908 HTiB (no laughs, please), and I find it lacking in lots of areas, but mostly on bass. The Onkyo subwoofer doesn't go low enough fot HT, and sounds muddy on music. I love loud, tight & chest pounding bass, so I was looking for a major subwoofer improvement around $600 or less.
Will an AV123 MFW15 or similar be totally overpowering (in a negative way) for my room size and my little Onkyo flat panel speakers? Or will I get outstanding bass paired up with below average mids and treble from my speakers (which I can improve sometime in the future)?
Thanks for your help!

Class D amplifiers tend to sound poor on high frequencies.

Can someone please list amps in order, from 'best' to 'worst'.

Thanks.

Can someone please list amps in order, from 'best' to 'worst'.

Thanks.

As the man himself said:

Please, take the amp discussion to another thread. Thank You. :)

Will an AV123 MFW15 or similar be totally overpowering (in a negative way) for my room size and my little Onkyo flat panel speakers? Or will I get outstanding bass paired up with below average mids and treble from my speakers (which I can improve sometime in the future)?
Thanks for your help! I don't feel an MFW-15 would be overpowering in your room at all. I'm not sure how your HTIB works but, if you properly calibrate your system (balance the volume of all the speakers including the subwoofer), you should, indeed, "get outstanding bass paired up with below average mids and treble from [your HTIB] speakers (which [you] can improve sometime in the future). :D

To add to what Rijax stated, your system is going to sound out of wack with deficient speakers or sub. Then to drive better speakers, you're likely to have to buy a new receiver. (see how this hobby gets out of hand) Don't expect a nice sub to fix the rest of the system.

I am seriously about to push the button on a pair of MFW-15s, I have Boston Cherry Axiom M80s and they are going to be side by side so I am not sure whether the Palisander Rosa Satin or the Cherry Satin would be a better match? Anyone else with M80s that bought this subwoofer?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=990250 :rolleyes:

Thank you for your advice JimP and Rijax!

The check has gone out for the VMPS VSS in Ebony ... I will update as information comes in. :)

I am seriously about to push the button on a pair of MFW-15s, I have Boston Cherry Axiom M80s and they are going to be side by side so I am not sure whether the Palisander Rosa Satin or the Cherry Satin would be a better match? Anyone else with M80s that bought this subwoofer?

Looking at the different finish pictures on their website. It looks like the Cherry won't match. Your match will probably more like Palisander Natural or Rosa Satin.

I performed some quantitative analysis of the "craigsub" subwoofer HT scores.

It was tremendously revealing.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=998318

Thanks again Craig for doing all the heavy lifting ($, time, hassle, etc.) to get the data.

I read it... Nice job. Looks like it is generating some interest. :)

I've seen discussions of sunfire subwoofers in other threads but no test results for them here. Can anyone give them a rough comaprative rating with others that are being discussed here.
Ive heard good things (and some bad) about them and am building my system - so they are a current consideration for a sub

thanks

Craig,
Whats the best DIY sub you have come across and where can I get the digrams so I can build it?
Thanks

craig, I know you have already said you are "slowing it down" as far as new reviews go...but I see you have already broken the rule...hehehhe!!!


Any chance you could be tempted to review one of these......

http://www.aperionaudio.com/catalog/Bravus-Subwoofers,66.aspx

They look nice, Dual sealed subs and the prices seem awfully good.

They have a good rep as an ID speaker company......

I'm wondering how the EQing works with a sealed sub. And if it helps at all with the LOW LFE FRQ's....

I've seen discussions of sunfire subwoofers in other threads but no test results for them here. Can anyone give them a rough comaprative rating with others that are being discussed here.

Sunfire subwoofers generate lots and lots of harmonic distortion in a nice and small package. :)

--Regards,

lol

Sunfire subwoofers generate lots and lots of harmonic distortion in a nice and small package. :)

--Regards,
I've had a Sunfire Signature for about seven years. For it's size you can't beat it. It's better below 60 Hz. then above. I blew mine up twice, the last time was two months ago. Sunfire is qreat for repairs. They charge a flat rate for what it takes to repair the sub. Something like $250.00. The first time they replaced the driver, up dated the amp with some improved parts and installed an anti clipping circuit. The second time, another new driver and amp.
I probably abuse this sub. I use it in a large room in a 10.1 set-up with 6 Klipschorns and 4 LaScalas. I listen to music between 96 and 104 db in this room. I cross over to the Sunfire at 45 Hz. and run the mains and center on Large and to the subwoofer. The Klipschorns are what provide that 45 Hz. punch in my room, and the sub helps out below that. When the music is at 96 db the Sunfire is maxing out, so when I increase the volume of the system from there I have to continue the turn down the subwoofer volume at the same time, or THERE SHE BLOWS. I'm glad I can do this from the remote control. I've been looking at subs for at least three years now. I finally made up my mind and ordered an Epick Conquest, and it will arrive on Monday. Maybe with the Conquest I'll be able to set my mains and center to small and cross them over at 45 Hz. So I'll be experimenting and playing for a while.

For the record, I am not trying to imply that Sunfire subwoofers are junk. I hope I didn't give you that idea. The reality is that a super small box is subject to many limitations.

--Regards,

Craig,
Whats the best DIY sub you have come across and where can I get the digrams so I can build it?
Thanks

This is like asking who is the hottest looking woman I have ever seen, and can I get you her phone number ... :D

What are you trying to accomplish, and what can you afford (note how this applies to women and subwoofers ?).

This is like asking who is the hottest looking woman I have ever seen, and can I get you her phone number ... :D

What are you trying to accomplish, and what can you afford (note how this applies to women and subwoofers ?).

LOL;)

This is like asking who is the hottest looking woman I have ever seen, and can I get you her phone number ... :D


...Well can you, CraigPimp?

...Well can you, CraigPimp?

Her name is Candi, and her number is 888-UNE-ED$$$


http://www.3wishes.com/images/annabel2-c.jpg

Just don't do your dirty work in Oklahoma City:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-video23feb23,1,4434854.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

Craig-

Any update on when the new HSU will be available to you?

Craig-

Any update on when the new HSU will be available to you?

No idea ... has anyone heard anything new about this sub ?

This is kind of off topic...sorry. But, I didn't see any of the SVS powered cylinder subs on the list. Is it simply because there were none available to test, or are they not "good enough" to compete with their peers? I've heard nothing but praise for models like the PC 20-39 Plus (actually, all of the cylinder size models).

I have heard the new Hsu, but they were not ready to announce anything.

they announced on their forum the return of a cylinder model

This is kind of off topic...sorry. But, I didn't see any of the SVS powered cylinder subs on the list. Is it simply because there were none available to test, or are they not "good enough" to compete with their peers? I've heard nothing but praise for models like the PC 20-39 Plus (actually, all of the cylinder size models).

The cylinders perform comparably to the same "box" sub, ie: PC-Ultra vs. PB-Ultra. The box subs are typically at a slightly lower tuning, other than that, there really is no difference.

There is no real reason for not having a cylinder here - just worked out this way.

Sunfire subwoofers generate lots and lots of harmonic distortion in a nice and small package. :)

--Regards,

This was certainly true for the original true sub, but no so true for the signature series.

Here is a quote from the review of the Sunfire Signature EQ by John E. Johnson (SVS links to his reviews for their subwoofers):

At 20 Hz, and 100 dB SPL, THD+N was less than 8%. This is great performance from such a small box.
Not to say the other larger subs seen here don't do better, but for something the size of the Signature sub, it's quite good and below the accepted hearing threshold of 10% for distortion.

Full review by John E. Johnson: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_3/sunfire-eq-signature-subwoofer-8-2005.html

I think the OP would do better with one of the larger subs on the list if able, but if space and/or WAF is a major factor and you don't mind spending the money, this sub fits the bill.

I recently sold my signature to move to a PC-Ultra and am very happy about it. However, the Signature sub fit where nothing else would at the time I bought it and did a credible job.

Look at post #5441 on page 182.

Look at post #5624 on page 188.

Look at posts #5946 and 5969 on page 199.sweet! I was just about to ask for charts.:D

Here is a quote from the review of the Sunfire Signature EQ by John E. Johnson (SVS links to his reviews for their subwoofers)

Interesting. Not a bad performance given the size limitations. I retract my earlier comments then. :)

--Regards,

What are you trying to accomplish, and what can you afford (note how this applies to women and subwoofers ?).

LOL, ain't that the truth!

Another one of those "basic truths" in life. Some things never change.

At 20 Hz, and 100 dB SPL, THD+N was less than 8%..

Umm, those readings are 12 inches from the driver, not 1m, not 2m, and probably not GP. 2m equals to almost 79 inches. So the Sunfire's actual 20Hz with 8% THD is at around 80dB. I wouldn't call that very low distortion.

Just don't do your dirty work in Oklahoma City:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-video23feb23,1,4434854.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

Whats wrong with OKC? Thats where I was born and raised.

I retract my retracted earlier comments concerning the distortion present in the Sunfire. It helps when one reads the actual article. :)

--Regards,

what am I trying to acheive - good question . Lets start with the most obvious and difficult to acheive - high WAF yet high audio performance
This is my intial foray into HT . My previous focus was music only.
I was forced to give up my klipsch cornwalls (extremly low WAF) after years of battling . I now have Paradigm 30's (l/R) and a 20 (c) and need a sub . Im still looking into the surrounds .
I have a midsized room (odd configuration . 13' high ceilings room 20'x15" but one side of the room is open to the kitchen which is the same size. So in order to preserve what WAF I have acheived Im looking for a relatively small sub probably no more than 18x18 with good musical qualities - but acceptable HT performace . Id like to get them for under $800 if at all possible

thanks for the input

Her name is Candi, and her number is 888-UNE-ED$$$


http://www.3wishes.com/images/annabel2-c.jpg

:eek:WOW...:cool:

If you have a Panasonic Blu-Ray BD30 player there is an issue with the LFE & PCM output. There is a firmware update available now at: http://panasonic.jp/support/global/c...bd30/bd30.html

Bill

Lets start with the most obvious and difficult to acheive - high WAF yet high audio performance
This is my intial foray into HT . My previous focus was music only.
I was forced to give up my klipsch cornwalls (extremly low WAF) after years of battling . I now have Paradigm 30's (l/R) and a 20 (c) and need a sub . Im still looking into the surrounds .
I have a midsized room (odd configuration . 13' high ceilings room 20'x15" but one side of the room is open to the kitchen which is the same size. So in order to preserve what WAF I have acheived Im looking for a relatively small sub probably no more than 18x18 with good musical qualities - but acceptable HT performace . Id like to get them for under $800 if at all possible

Simple solution: 1. Lose the wife. 2. Obtain one or more massive EBS (or "LLT") subwoofers. 3. Live happily ever after. :D

thanks for the recommendation btp - while that is a solution I think Ill wait to see what other options others may suggest ;)

Good recommendation.

--Regards,

thanks for the recommendation btp - while that is a solution I think Ill wait to see what other options others may suggest ;)

I'd like to add to the suggestions above. After losing the wife, talk to Craig about "Candi".

Simple solution: 1. Lose the wife. 2. Obtain one or more massive EBS (or "LLT") subwoofers. 3. Live happily ever after. :D

Will he be able to afford #2 after carrying out #1?

what am I trying to acheive - good question . Lets start with the most obvious and difficult to acheive - high WAF yet high audio performance
This is my intial foray into HT . My previous focus was music only.
I was forced to give up my klipsch cornwalls (extremly low WAF) after years of battling . I now have Paradigm 30's (l/R) and a 20 (c) and need a sub . Im still looking into the surrounds .
I have a midsized room (odd configuration . 13' high ceilings room 20'x15" but one side of the room is open to the kitchen which is the same size. So in order to preserve what WAF I have acheived Im looking for a relatively small sub probably no more than 18x18 with good musical qualities - but acceptable HT performace . Id like to get them for under $800 if at all possible

thanks for the input

You might find the ACI Force is exactly what you seek ...

Here is a pic:

http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/forcexl/images/fxlch.jpg

And here is a link ...

http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/forcexl/forcexldetail.htm

You might find the ACI Force is exactly what you seek ...

Craig, have you heard the Force? I'm searching tirelessly for a good subwoofer solution for my room, which is quite small (12'x10.5'x8'). I'm getting Onix Ref 1.5 speakers and so far the MFW-15 is at the top of my list (I need something 18" wide or less, front ported or sealed). However, the Force seems more... appropriate to my room size than the mammoth MFW, and it seems like a good performer. I weigh musical performance more heavily than HT.

Of course, the MFW is cheaper than the Force (only $100 so now with the deals ACI is having) and probably has greater extension and much more dynamic headroom... but the Force's size and looks keep me interested.

What do you think would be the best solution?

Pibbo - The MFW-15 outperforms the Force in every way, as it should. If you really NEED compact, the Force is a terrific choice.

The ACI Maestro scored a 97 compared to the 109 for the MFW, I'm pretty sure Craig will say go for the MFW if you can take the size/look. The Force may have better WAF and is smaller, so he was just answering to meet your needs!

Ooops ... there you go, straight from the horse's mouth! Not that I'm calling you a horse Craig!

Ooops ... there you go, straight from the horse's mouth! Not that I'm calling you a horse Craig!

There is definitely a horse's ass joke in there somewhere.... :D

thanks very much -Ill look into the force. Ive read a lot of the thread and the comparisons that were done so your work has helped me out a lot . I like the MFW also . Maybe with a few more honey-dos deposited in the bank of WAF and a few more dollars out of my bank - who knows :)

thanks everyone

Pibbo - The MFW-15 outperforms the Force in every way, as it should. If you really NEED compact, the Force is a terrific choice.

That's all I needed to know. I don't have to worry about WAF (college :cool: ) and I like the look of the MFW's big ol' F**k-Off woofer, so I was just wondering if the Force would be more "musical" or something. Getting the MFW up to my room is going to be a big pita though. I'm sure it will be worth it! ;)

thanks very much -Ill look into the force.

may the force be with you! Looks like a decent sub for the price/waf.

Craigsub or anyone else that knows...when you reviewed the MFW-15 you praised it as being among the best in all areas except the deepest bass. You mentioned the 16Hz organ notes being less than with the PB-13. Was the MFW-15 able to hit this low (16Hz)? Is it still "good" is this area and just not great or is it really lacking?

I am deciding between the MFW-15 and the Epik Caliber and wonder if the Caliber might not be better for the added extension. But was also wondering if played at loud but moderate levels if the MFW-15 may not be better since it takes quite a bit of SPL to feel the sub 20Hz. On the other hand if the Caliber is lower in the upper bass I may be able to play it a little louder and get more of the low stuff without the upper stuff being too loud for normal use (:o unusual statement to be made in this thread I know). I need to pressurize about a 3200 cubic foot area (1500 cubic feet in listening room and the remainder adjoining space seperated by an open doorway). Main interest is movies.

Craigsub or anyone else that knows...when you reviewed the MFW-15 you praised it as being among the best in all areas except the deepest bass. You mentioned the 16Hz organ notes being less than with the PB-13. Was the MFW-15 able to hit this low (16Hz)? Is it still "good" is this area and just not great or is it really lacking?

I am deciding between the MFW-15 and the Epik Caliber and wonder if the Caliber might not be better for the added extension. But was also wondering if played at loud but moderate levels if the MFW-15 may not be better since it takes quite a bit of SPL to feel the sub 20Hz. On the other hand if the Caliber is lower in the upper bass I may be able to play it a little louder and get more of the low stuff without the upper stuff being too loud for normal use (:o unusual statement to be made in this thread I know). I need to pressurize about a 3200 cubic foot area (1500 cubic feet in listening room and the remainder adjoining space seperated by an open doorway). Main interest is movies.

The MFW-15 does a pretty good job on pipe organ - but not as good as a Castle. Of course, the Castle is a big step up from the Caliber. I don't "know" if the Caliber is a better "pipe organ" sub than is the MFW-15 ... but it is a pretty good guess that it is, based on the size and tuning of the Castle (which uses a smaller cabinet and higher tuning).

Does anyone have an opinion on where the Tower belongs in the rankings? If it ranks very close to the Conquest in HT rankings, i'd rather spring for the Tower. My wallet (and back) will thank me, as I plan on getting 2 of whatever sub I go with.

The MFW-15 does a pretty good job on pipe organ - but not as good as a Castle. Of course, the Castle is a big step up from the Caliber. I don't "know" if the Caliber is a better "pipe organ" sub than is the MFW-15 ... but it is a pretty good guess that it is, based on the size and tuning of the Castle (which uses a smaller cabinet and higher tuning).
Craig do you think the Castle is worth the $375 additional it would cost over the Caliber ($300 + extra shipping and tax (IL resident))? I have a Caliber and MFW-15 on order that I expect by the end of April or beginning of May. I currently have an SVS 16-46 and a Velo servo 15 in a 1700 cubic ft. room. I am looking to replace one or both depending on how things work out. I was originally considering getting the dual MFW-15s but felt the urge to try out one of the Epiks as well so I went with one of each. Your thoughts or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Does anyone have an opinion on where the Tower belongs in the rankings? If it ranks very close to the Conquest in HT rankings, i'd rather spring for the Tower. My wallet (and back) will thank me, as I plan on getting 2 of whatever sub I go with.

A tower should be very close to castle - same driver, same amp, just a bigger box with a lower tuning. Extra output down low but may be 1 or 2 db's less in the audible range.

Craig,
Any chance you can get your hands on the Genesis G-928?

Craig do you think the Castle is worth the $375 additional it would cost over the Caliber ($300 + extra shipping and tax (IL resident))? I have a Caliber and MFW-15 on order that I expect by the end of April or beginning of May. I currently have an SVS 16-46 and a Velo servo 15 in a 1700 cubic ft. room. I am looking to replace one or both depending on how things work out. I was originally considering getting the dual MFW-15s but felt the urge to try out one of the Epiks as well so I went with one of each. Your thoughts or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Wow, wish you already had these two subs so you could give a comparison. Also would be interested in the 16-46 vs the Caliber comparison. Are thinking about using both in the same room?

Craigsub or anyone else that knows...when you reviewed the MFW-15 you praised it as being among the best in all areas except the deepest bass. You mentioned the 16Hz organ notes being less than with the PB-13. Was the MFW-15 able to hit this low (16Hz)? Is it still "good" is this area and just not great or is it really lacking?

I am deciding between the MFW-15 and the Epik Caliber and wonder if the Caliber might not be better for the added extension. But was also wondering if played at loud but moderate levels if the MFW-15 may not be better since it takes quite a bit of SPL to feel the sub 20Hz. On the other hand if the Caliber is lower in the upper bass I may be able to play it a little louder and get more of the low stuff without the upper stuff being too loud for normal use (:o unusual statement to be made in this thread I know). I need to pressurize about a 3200 cubic foot area (1500 cubic feet in listening room and the remainder adjoining space seperated by an open doorway). Main interest is movies.

Hi Keith,

I would point out that if the "adjoining" space you refer to is only coupled by a ~standard doorway/hallway size opening, you will find that spare a few locations, the observed results will be more akin to that of a 1500 cu.ft. space than a 3200 cu.ft. space. While the MFW-15 would never pass as "compact" by most people's descriptions, the response of the subwoofer is still very conducive to smaller rooms, where you will see more output below 20-25Hz than in larger rooms (implying 3500+ cu.ft.). The main hurdle in rooms with smaller dimensions is the upper octave modal problems, where careful palcement and 2 subwoofer locations can be very beneficial. Somewhat contrary to popular notion of the scaling of subwoofer with rooms size, those modal problems quickly can eat into subwoofer headroom where it's needed most to deliver the slam and impact many crave. The low end rumble is easier in small rooms, typically at the expense of being more prone to problems at higher frequencies. Of course the ratio of room dimensions affects this greatly, with squarish rooms or rooms with 14-16' dimensions being more problematic (mutliples of 7-8' ceiling height).

Mark, what is the exact tuning frequency of the MFW-15 ? Thanks.

--Regards,

Wow, wish you already had these two subs so you could give a comparison. Also would be interested in the 16-46 vs the Caliber comparison. Are thinking about using both in the same room?
I wish I had them both too!:) Good things come to those who wait.
I am planning on using them in the same room. The subs that I am considering replacing (SVS and Velo) are currently both being used in my dedicated HT. I even have 8" subs in my Def Tech towers and center channel as well as butt shakers mounted to all the seating.:eek: I'm a bass junkie and am always looking for that next best bang for your $ sub that'll bring the house down around me. My wife and kids actually get scared when I'm in the basement watching a movie as things are jumping all over the place upstairs. You can never have enough good, clean bass IMHO.

You want bass? Get an A7-900. It will bring your house down.

What about the Dayton??

What about the Dayton??

What about it???

Hi Keith,

The main hurdle in rooms with smaller dimensions is the upper octave modal problems, where careful palcement and 2 subwoofer locations can be very beneficial. Somewhat contrary to popular notion of the scaling of subwoofer with rooms size, those modal problems quickly can eat into subwoofer headroom where it's needed most to deliver the slam and impact many crave. The low end rumble is easier in small rooms, typically at the expense of being more prone to problems at higher frequencies. Of course the ratio of room dimensions affects this greatly, with squarish rooms or rooms with 14-16' dimensions being more problematic (mutliples of 7-8' ceiling height).

My room is 16x16with 7.5' ceilings. Only opening is through a set of french doors.
I just placed an order for an Epic Castle. Might I be better off with 2 Valors, Knights or MFW15s?

Of course the ratio of room dimensions affects this greatly, with squarish rooms or rooms with 14-16' dimensions being more problematic (mutliples of 7-8' ceiling height).

Mark,

You list the negative affect of having the room L or W being a multiple of the ceiling height but isn't it also beneficial where the L and W are also not evenly divisible to each other?

I transformed my 20X20 room into a 14X20 to avoid this. I used a free Room Mode Calculator Software to come up with these dimensions. But since my ceiling starts at 7 1/2 feet on the sides and slopes up to 11 feet with a 3ft wide flat spot on the top, how will that affect the room modes? The calculator only allows one value entered for each dimension (LxWxH).

I'm currently gathering the stuff to measure my room but I'd like to figure out on paper beforehand to see how it compares.

I have 2 MFW-15's on order and plan on placing them in different locations in the room. Hopefully for esthetics, they will work fine up front with each one next to my mains.