Here's a question I didnt want to start a new thread for :
when people refer to "upper bass slam" or just "upper bass" what frequencies are they talking about?

Here's a question I didnt want to start a new thread for :
when people refer to "upper bass slam" or just "upper bass" what frequencies are they talking about?

I'd say above 50 Hz to around 100 Hz.

Here's a question I didnt want to start a new thread for :
when people refer to "upper bass slam" or just "upper bass" what frequencies are they talking about?

I'd say above 50 Hz to around 100 Hz.

Yep- but probably even higher (to the 200 hz mark or so if a sub will go that high).

This was Hsu's big push on the MBM and if you want to know about upper bass slam, the big gunfight scene in Open Range would be a good demo. Though I do not specifcially know the hz range (I'll bet Craig or someone else here does) the gunshots are right around the 40 to 75 hz range I would imagine. Hsu used that in one of their demo's for the MBM as the MBM would add that 'slam' in the chest feeling when located nearfield, yet any low rumblings below 50 would still be heard/felt through the lower sub (Ho/ MKIII, or whatever else you'd have in a corner).

But gunshots and chopper blades would be a good example of mid bass slam, whereas things like oh, I dunno, a POD emerging from the bowels of the earth, or a Balroc chasing you down a dark alley, or a little girl tapping on your window, would be more indicative of that subsonic bass. Oh, lets not forget your server if a gremlin or two are in there, and you have a bunch of them and they're located in a basement :)

I kinda think though, that gunshots and chopper blades depend on the woofers and even tweeters as well, I doubt they can sound sharp when only the subwoofer is playing. Or am I wrong?

A MBM-12 is a BIG improvement over any speaker's mid bass. I have 2 MBM-12's, running one with each for my mains with xover at 150hz. I get the WOW factor in a big way. For bass below 50hz, I have a 3.3 Turbo behind the seating area.

Bill

A MBM-12 is a BIG improvement over any speaker's mid bass. I have 2 MBM-12's, running one with each for my mains with xover at 150hz. I get the WOW factor in a big way. For bass below 50hz, I have a 3.3 Turbo behind the seating area.

Bill

What were your mains?

How do you split the frequency range 3-ways?

How do you split the frequency range 3-ways?

You send the 150 Hz crossover signal to both the MBM's and the main sub. The MBM's are filtered below 50 hz by the amp. Then set the crossover of the main sub to 50 Hz.

The set up of running a pair of MBM's next to the mains, with a 120 Hz crossover seems a natural, especially with the dynamic limits of so many mains today.

It is the recommendation of putting an MBM next to one's chair that never worked for me - it was very easily located.

You send the 150 Hz crossover signal to both the MBM's and the main sub. The MBM's are filtered below 50 hz by the amp. Then set the crossover of the main sub to 50 Hz.

The set up of running a pair of MBM's next to the mains, with a 120 Hz crossover seems a natural, especially with the dynamic limits of so many mains today.

It is the recommendation of putting an MBM next to one's chair that never worked for me - it was very easily located.

That's exactly what my setup is, and my mains are JBL E90's. Since my Pio '94 will not do 120hz, that is why I set it at 150hz. There is no issue with localization since the MBM's are with the mains and it ads to the mains in the mid-bass area. The bass is amazing when set up this way and my living room is over 6000 cubic feet wtih two large openings on the left side going to other parts of the house. Check out the sub tests done by Ilkka last year and see what the output is for the MBM and 3.3 Turbo when set up this way: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/6015-index-subwoofer-tests-manufacturer-model.html.

Bill

You send the 150 Hz crossover signal to both the MBM's and the main sub. The MBM's are filtered below 50 hz by the amp. Then set the crossover of the main sub to 50 Hz.

The set up of running a pair of MBM's next to the mains, with a 120 Hz crossover seems a natural, especially with the dynamic limits of so many mains today.

It is the recommendation of putting an MBM next to one's chair that never worked for me - it was very easily located.

That's exactly what my setup is, and my mains are JBL E90's. Since my Pio '94 will not do 120hz, that is why I set it at 150hz. There is no issue with localization since the MBM's are with the mains and it ads to the mains in the mid-bass area. The bass is amazing when set up this way and my living room is over 6000 cubic feet wtih two large openings on the left side going to other parts of the house. Check out the sub tests done by Ilkka last year and see what the output is for the MBM and 3.3 Turbo when set up this way: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/6015-index-subwoofer-tests-manufacturer-model.html.

Bill

That makes sense - you have one hell of a setup there bsoko2! One thing though, why then does Hsu and his team recommend the MBM near field, and the lower freq. sub in the traditional location? Your setup makes perfect sense to me, Hsu' recommendation (and demo of it when it first launched.. I wasn't there I read about it in a revew from Hsu's site) had it the exact opposite. And yes, I was wondering when I read it about localization, but since I dont' have that setup never really mentioned it and this is the first I've seen for a comment like that.

Craig - can't remember now in all these posts, but if I recall correctly, you never did measure or judge the combo setup, did you? An HO and a pair of MBM's would be around 2 grand delievered. I'll bet that combo would very hard to beat if setup correctly (like how bsoko2 has) for that price.

That's exactly what my setup is, and my mains are JBL E90's. Since my Pio '94 will not do 120hz, that is why I set it at 150hz.
Bill

Bill,

Does the Pioneer allow you to set different crossovers for mains vs all other speakers?

One thing that I see that you're doing is shifting the mid bass load off of your mains but at the same time raises a new question as to how they intergrate with the rest of your speakers that are crossovered differently.

Bill,

Does the Pioneer allow you to set different crossovers for mains vs all other speakers?

One thing that I see that you're doing is shifting the mid bass load off of your mains but at the same time raises a new question as to how they intergrate with the rest of your speakers that are crossovered differently.

Unfortunatly, no separate settings that I know of. Please understand that I am a novice at this and this is my first foray into HT starting last September. I run my subs +8 hotter then the mains and to my old ears the setup sound good. I'm happy with it and I have good depth and dimension with the bass.

Bill

Bill,

Does the Pioneer allow you to set different crossovers for mains vs all other speakers?

One thing that I see that you're doing is shifting the mid bass load off of your mains but at the same time raises a new question as to how they intergrate with the rest of your speakers that are crossovered differently.

I have an older Pioneer Elite VSX-52, and it doesn't allow for separate crossover frequencies. Unless Pioneer has changed this on their newer Elites, I think Bill is right - he can only have one crossover frequency for all speakers.

You send the 150 Hz crossover signal to both the MBM's and the main sub. The MBM's are filtered below 50 hz by the amp. Then set the crossover of the main sub to 50 Hz.

The set up of running a pair of MBM's next to the mains, with a 120 Hz crossover seems a natural, especially with the dynamic limits of so many mains today.

It is the recommendation of putting an MBM next to one's chair that never worked for me - it was very easily located.

I wondered about that also when I read it on HSU's site for the MBM. It did not make sense to me either. The logical location would seem to be a pair by your mains.

[/B]

I wondered about that also when I read it on HSU's site for the MBM. It did not make sense to me either. The logical location would seem to be a pair by your mains.

It does work, that's how I had it when I had just 1 MBM-12. When I got my second one, that's when I decided to experiment and run them with the mains and it also worked very well. I'm waiting to see what the new HSU sub is and then play around somemore with the placement.

Bill

Bill,

Seems that you'd have a gap between 150hz and 50hz for all your other speakers.

Bill,

Seems that you'd have a gap between 150hz and 50hz for all your other speakers.

My subs are setup LFE only with a crossover of 150 hz. The 3.3 Turbo is up to 50hz, then the MBM-12's are 50hz to 150hz. So where is the hole?

Bill

My subs are setup LFE only with a crossover of 150 hz. The 3.3 Turbo is up to 50hz, then the MBM-12's are 50hz to 150hz. So where is the hole?

Bill

150hz to 90hz is very directional, so that would mean, bass frequencies that are supposed to come out of the center, surrounds and backs will be coming from your MBM's up front.

That makes sense - you have one hell of a setup there bsoko2! One thing though, why then does Hsu and his team recommend the MBM near field, and the lower freq. sub in the traditional location? Your setup makes perfect sense to me, Hsu' recommendation (and demo of it when it first launched.. I wasn't there I read about it in a revew from Hsu's site) had it the exact opposite. And yes, I was wondering when I read it about localization, but since I dont' have that setup never really mentioned it and this is the first I've seen for a comment like that.

I have the same pair (HO + MBM) in 2 rooms.

In the family room the HO is behind the couch and the MBM is in the front right corner.

In the HT room the HO is in the front left corner and the MBM is behind the seats.

Both are set to 80hz xover with the MBM taking 50-80.

Tin-Ear-Splotto™ can't hear a difference between them.

Splotto

150hz to 90hz is very directional, so that would mean, bass frequencies that are supposed to come out of the center, surrounds and backs will be coming from your MBM's up front.

If you play music in stereo through all the speakers, then, yes you would probably notice it. While watching a movie in 7.3, it is not noticable at all. There are others out there that run high xovers of 120 or more and problems with bass direction does not seem to be a factor for anybody. I know that it is not noticable by me. Hey, it's the best listening that I have experienced with HT. Here is a thread about using the MBM-12's with mains: http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?t=3855&highlight=crossover.

Bill

Added: My living room is over 6000 cubic feet (with 2 large openings on the left to other areas fo the house) and I sit 13.5 feet from the speakers and in the first sea battle in "Master & Commander" when the cannons fired I got 101db at the seating area. In the showdown gunfight scene in "Open Range", you are not only feeling like the gun goes off next to you, you are looking for the bullet hole in your head!

Craig, any chance of testing an eD A7-450 (either sealed or ported version)? Ribbit is having some very good results with them.

I'd expect the A7-450 to be fairly close to Craig's favorite sub, the A7-900, minus about 3db in output.

The eD guys are still working to catch up on production ... but I would think one can tell from the results of the A7-900 that an A7-450 will be a darn good choice, as Mojomike already stated.

It's been at least a couple of weeks since we sent the check to VMPS - no word from them on anything. Hopefully, there will be soon. :)

Craig (or other sub experts) - just recently purchased a Pioneer VSX-94 and DT Mythos ST/10 speakers for a 15'x18'x8' home theater. The room is open on the backside to 2 other rooms making the total space ~40' long. Although very pleased with low end performance, I am considering the addition of a dedicated sub such as the MFW-15. Will I see any advantage or is this overkill?

IMHO, the improvement will be huge especially with movies. It will transform your system into something special. It isn't overkill.

Big ditto. "transform your system into something special" is an excellent way to put it. Even with a lesser or reasonably mid-grade receiver and speakers, the result is nothing short of amazing if you have never heard bass of this quality before.

We pick nits here ALOT when comparing various subwoofers, and many of those specifics do make a audible differences, but the degree difference you're looking at by stepping up to this level is akin debating who is the greatest NFL quaterback as opposed the really good high school passer you know.


Tim

Craig,

If you wanted to assign an HT score number for the MBM-12 at least from 50-80hz...
What number could that be, in comparison to other subs 50hz to 80hz performance?

Craig,
Any word on testing the Klipsch THX Ultra 2 subs? Thanks!

Craig,

If you wanted to assign an HT score number for the MBM-12 at least from 50-80hz...
What number could that be, in comparison to other subs 50hz to 80hz performance?

I wish there was an answer to this, but there really isn't ... there are too many variables which are different than the criteria for the other subs. :)

Craig,
Any word on testing the Klipsch THX Ultra 2 subs? Thanks!

I did talk to one of their engineers, and he was going to get back to me ... but never did. Still waiting on the VMPS ...

Craig, how does the A7-900 compared to the Genelec HTS6 in terms of slam?

Craig, how does the A7-900 compared to the Genelec HTS6 in terms of slam?

Both are excellent ... Then there is the price difference. :eek:

Any word on the VMPS VSS? I'm looking forward to how it compares to the other subs.

Any word on the VMPS VSS? I'm looking forward to how it compares to the other subs.

Nothing yet, and the check went out 3 weeks ago today. I am leaving tomorrow with my son for the Pennsylvania state championships, and won't be back on line until Friday afternoon.

If there is no news by then, I will call John to make sure he got the check.

I spoke with John today and he said he thinks the sub went out today.

SleeperSupra ... Thanks for the heads up. This is part of what makes VMPS ... well ... VMPS.

They make "laid back" into an art form ... :D

SleeperSupra ... Thanks for the heads up. This is part of what makes VMPS ... well ... VMPS.

They make "laid back" into an art form ... :Dlol:D

I wish there was an answer to this, but there really isn't ... there are too many variables which are different than the criteria for the other subs. :)

How did you felt the 50-80hz performance vs lets say... Ultra 13?
Did you felt something at all?

Did you felt something at all?

I'm sure he did not felt anything at all.

--Regards,

I noticed Paradigm sub-woofers werent in the ratings. Does anyone have experience or thoughs about the Seismic 10 . I need a small (WAF) sub . I mainly listen to music but the systems does double duty as HT also

I'm sure he did not felt anything at all.

--Regards,

LoL!:D

Searched for discussion of the REL subs, in particular the REL T3, and didn't see that it has come up in this discussion.

Any opinions about how it would compare to a an av123 x-sub Subwoofer? The application would be in a 10x12x8 room, so it's not a tough space, and size (smaller is better) matters. Critical listening takes place in another room, but I want good sound in this room, too.

I've heard of a dual seismic 10 setup before. I think they're pretty good in HT for it's size. I never tried music on it though. But HT performance was respectable for its size.

If you want a high WAF sub with nice music and HT capabilities, try the SVS SB12 out.

SVS SB12 would be in the running, but it's 3x the price of a new x-sub, and twice the price of a used REL T3. So unless it is substantially better (I seek accuracy/musicality over ooomph) I find the cost to be a detractor.

I don't wan to hijack the thread but figure someone here has heard both the REL T3 and the av123 x-sub and could comment on how they compare....

Both the SVS SB12- plus and the ACL Force XL will meet the minimum WAF - barely .Has anyone had the opportunity to rate them versus the Paradigm siesmic 10 ?

I have Paradigm millenium 20's and was told that musically a paradigm sub would match the sound better - Since Im new to this configuration of using a sub I dont know is this is just sales speak or should I be concerned with that

thanks

Both the SVS SB12- plus and the ACL Force XL will meet the minimum WAF - barely .Has anyone had the opportunity to rate them versus the Paradigm siesmic 10 ?

I have Paradigm millenium 20's and was told that musically a paradigm sub would match the sound better - Since Im new to this configuration of using a sub I dont know is this is just sales speak or should I be concerned with that

thanks

Beachboy, if a tiny little sub like SB12 can barely meet the WAF, you really have got some sub/women problems. You really can't go much smaller and expect any great results.

Please do not buy into that line of BS about a Paradigm sub or any particular brand of sub blending better with your speakers. It's a load of crap. I haven't heard the Seismic 10 or the ACI Force, but the SB12 does an admirable job for it's size. ACI as a company is very well respected.

My usage is primarily music - is the PB12 plus primarily HT or does it balance both well ?

If you have trouble getting the SB12 past the wife, how will you ever be able to get the PB12? The difference in size is huge.

If your usage is primarily music, I'd go with the SB12. The PB12 certainly can do both, but it is known more for it's HT abilities than it's music abilities.

beachboy:

take a look at the upcoming AV123 Explosive. Another Mark Seaton design, but smaller than the MFW15 if size is an issue. AFAIK, it hasn't been released yet, but given who the designer is, most likely another winner.



my 2 cents.

take a look at the upcoming AV123 Explosive. Another Mark Seaton design, but smaller than the MFW15 if size is an issue.

This subwoofer is around the same size as the SVS PB10-NSD which is still considerably bigger than the SB12. If the wife is having a tough time accepting such a tiny critter then she most likely will die of heart failure with X-plosive. :)

--Regards,

...Plus the actual delivery date of the x-plosive would be ????? Use your imagination.

I made her live with Klipsh cornwalls for many years (obviously bought when I was a batchelor) and just gave in and sold them last year - I think shes still punsihing me for loving them more than her (or so it seemed to her)

If you have trouble getting the SB12 past the wife, how will you ever be able to get the PB12? The difference in size is huge.

If your usage is primarily music, I'd go with the SB12. The PB12 certainly can do both, but it is known more for it's HT abilities than it's music abilities.
Sorry - I miss typed - Im only looking at the SB12 not the PB12

Hey Craig,

I thought I read somewhere recently that you might have been sent an SVS PB12–NSD with the new amp for testing.

If so, what are your impressions of the sub?

Hey Craig,

I thought I read somewhere recently that you might have been sent an SVS PB12–NSD with the new amp for testing.

If so, what are your impressions of the sub?

From what I was told, the new amp won't quite fit, so I need to get the SVS back to them to slightly enlarge the amp opening, which I just have not had the time to do.

I also talked to Peter from Hsu, and their VTF-3 Mark 3 is now a different animal, too, compared to the one I got 2 years ago.

As I am working hard on my first 2 subwoofer designs, the VSS from VMPS will be the last of the tests done here.

After that, all tests will be done by forum members at GTG's.

I did get some renderings and specs on our upcoming $159 subwoofer. The design team is really working hard to make this something special. :)

As I am working hard on my first 2 subwoofer designs, the VSS from VMPS will be the last of the tests done here.
:)

Sorry to hear this will be the last test. You have certainly provided a valuable reference though! It helped me make my decision to get the sub I got.

Sorry to hear this will be the last test. You have certainly provided a valuable reference though! It helped me make my decision to get the sub I got.

Thanks - I will miss some of the testing stuff, but the new venture should also be fun. I have always wanted to build a great budget sub and also a "no holds barred" sub, and with my recent purchase of some factory space and a rather large investment, this particular dream will soon be coming true.

Tweak City Audio is going to take up a lot of my time. :)

Thanks - I will miss some of the testing stuff, but the new venture should also be fun. I have always wanted to build a great budget sub and also a "no holds barred" sub, and with my recent purchase of some factory space and a rather large investment, this particular dream will soon be coming true.

Tweak City Audio is going to take up a lot of my time. :)


Awesome! Seems like the logical next step. Looking forward to your products.

From what I was told, the new amp won't quite fit, so I need to get the SVS back to them to slightly enlarge the amp opening, which I just have not had the time to do.

I also talked to Peter from Hsu, and their VTF-3 Mark 3 is now a different animal, too, compared to the one I got 2 years ago.

As I am working hard on my first 2 subwoofer designs, the VSS from VMPS will be the last of the tests done here.

After that, all tests will be done by forum members at GTG's.

I did get some renderings and specs on our upcoming $159 subwoofer. The design team is really working hard to make this something special. :)

Have you seen the woofer widget? The designer of this device has been working on some plate amps with this included. Would make a real good addition to a plate amp with out adding a lot of cost. It looks like an interesting business venture.

The woofer widget looks pretty cool ... I will have to ask Mark Seaton his thoughts.

The VMPS VSS has shipped, so it should arrive this week.

I have also ordered a New PB12-NSD from SVS, which is scheduled to ship on or after the 21st.

Hey - I am doing a great job of NOT doing more subwoofer reviews, eh ? :D

out of curiosity, will you be adding your company subs to your list?

out of curiosity, will you be adding your company subs to your list?

I highly doubt it. Everytime I say "never", then something changes, so highly doubt it will have to suffice.

Instead, I will more likely have a set up in which a group of guys can do some blind tests on the subs in question, and post what THEY think.

I can also see doing some GP tests, and posting the results.

Hey - I am doing a great job of NOT doing more subwoofer reviews, eh ? :D


Shows that there is something about it that you really enjoyed and missed.

Shows that there is something about it that you really enjoyed and missed.

Must be all that subwoofer weightlifting :D

I also talked to Peter from Hsu, and their VTF-3 Mark 3 is now a different animal, too, compared to the one I got 2 years ago.


This is interesting. From the timing of the release of their new line and the timing of your testing I had thought you had tested their latest.

You tested the HSU VTF-3 Mark 3 in early January of 2007 after thier release of their new series. (See pages 8-11 of this thread)

http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?t=2381

Granted I don't follow HSU that closely but I am surprised they have revised that line and I was unaware of it.

This is interesting. From the timing of the release of their new line and the timing of your testing I had thought you had tested their latest.

You tested the HSU VTF-3 Mark 3 in early January of 2007 after thier release of their new series. (See pages 8-11 of this thread)

http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?t=2381

Granted I don't follow HSU that closely but I am surprised they have revised that line and I was unaware of it.

It isn't so much that they have revised the VTF-3.3, but rather there have been incremental improvements over the past year.

why isn't there any earthquake sub. is that sub any good? sorry for the stupid question?

why isn't there any earthquake sub. is that sub any good? sorry for the stupid question?

This is a good question, not a stupid one. :)

I contacted Earthquake directly on several occasions - usually after a request like yours - and never heard back. That's why there has been nothing done with their stuff.

Dear Craigsub,
Thank you so much for your hard work, and the hard work of the volunteers that have worked with you on a very impressive, well researched list.

Some people seem to lament that people have assigned too much importance to your rankings list. To me this just underscores the real need for an objective, thorough study such as yours to assist those of us interested in buying a subwoofer. If there is another list like this out there, I would welcome it, but I have yet to find it.

I've read through much of this thread (though admittedly not ALL of it) and I'm a bit confused right now as to the future of your list. It sounds as if you're putting it behind you to focus on other things (which none of us could blame you, you "owe" us nothing) but I also see references to you possibly planning to review upcoming subs.

The reason I'm asking specifically, is that I'm very interested in how the Epik Knight compares to a sub such as the MFW-15. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. These two subs both appear to be excellent performers on paper, and a great value - and yet I haven't been able to find a single review either amateur or professional, which compares the two side by side.
And since I thought I saw somewhere that the Knight was on your "to be reviewed soon" list, I thought I'd ask.
Thanks.

Jared - Thank you for the kind words.

As we are developing several products, including subwoofers, for my new company, "Tweak City Audio", it is easy to understand why many manufacturers could be hesitant to participate in this thread.

There are 2 more subs to be tested, then we will see where things progress from that point.

If there is still interest, and we can develop a method of running tests with which everyone is comfortable, then it is possible we will continue.

Well,
I am going to direct this to Craigsub and anyone else who wants to chime in.
I am in the market for a or 2 new subs. My room is 18 x 25 x 8. I am currently using the earthquake 15" but have found I am not a fan of the passive radatior and am looking for 2 subs to be corner loaded in the front. I also had an old Velodine 18" which just died. I ahve been looking at the Axicom ep-600 or the new spl 15's from Velodine but have been kind of put off by what I've read in the postings.

Thanks in advance,

Andrew

Andrew - A couple years ago, the EP-600 was our favorite ported sub - but as other companies have brought prices down, and also gotten a lot better in the sound quality delivered, it is no longer quite the stellar performer it was then.

It is still a terrific performer - and should you get one, I am sure you will love it.

We have not tested the Velos ...

Craig,
If your still awake, hit me with what you would recomend for solid low powerful subs I've got about $3500-4000 to spend. Looking for best bang for buck.

Andrew

I have a Velo HGS-18THX & I'm, more than likely, going to order the Conquest (Epik). I would get the eD A7-900, but it's ugly and extremely large (I've seen the smaller ones in person).


Dunno about corner loading, but I know you can create a wedge shape with MartinLogan subs (I doubt your looking for this type of sub though) that's significantly boosts the .output'.

Wow,
Just got done looking at epik's web site, pretty impressive!! Just haven't heard of them before and if I'm looking to buy 2 it makes me a little nervous.

Wow,
Just got done looking at epik's web site, pretty impressive!! Just haven't heard of them before and if I'm looking to buy 2 it makes me a little nervous.

i must be such a wimp ive got 1 tower in a 4400cu. ft. room and im scared.

Wow,
Just got done looking at epik's web site, pretty impressive!! Just haven't heard of them before and if I'm looking to buy 2 it makes me a little nervous.

That's a good direction to go looking for best bang/buck. Another alternative is ed (http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=2_41)

Wow,
Just got done looking at epik's web site, pretty impressive!! Just haven't heard of them before and if I'm looking to buy 2 it makes me a little nervous.

Another way to go would be to get a HSU VTF-3.3 and a HSU MBM-12.

Craig,
If your still awake, hit me with what you would recomend for solid low powerful subs I've got about $3500-4000 to spend. Looking for best bang for buck.

Andrew

Let's see ... if size does not matter ...

Dual eD A7-700's @ $4400 delivered
Dual Conquests @ $3200 plus delivery
Triple A7-450's @ $3900 delivered
Dual PB-13 Ultras @ $3000 plus delivery (less a discount for multiples).

If size is a consideration (and perhaps regardless the size)..

Dual SUBmersives from Mark Seaton

Craig, why not go out on a high note and end with the JL Gotham? ;)

Craig, why not go out on a high note and end with the JL Gotham? ;)

Who knows? Maybe a blind comparison would wind up killing the mystique. What if certain $1500 -$2000 subs soundly thrashed it performancewise? It would be like finding out that Jessica Alba was lame in the sack. :eek:

Who knows? Maybe a blind comparison would wind up killing the mystique. What if certain $1500 -$2000 subs soundly thrashed it performancewise? It would be like finding out that Jessica Alba was lame in the sack. :eek:

NOOOOOO! Don't you ever say that...LOL

Who knows? Maybe a blind comparison would wind up killing the mystique. What if certain $1500 -$2000 subs soundly thrashed it performancewise? It would be like finding out that Jessica Alba was lame in the sack. :eek:

Having heard the Gotham and having been with Alba, I can promise you there is nothing to worry about in either regard :D:D

Having heard the Gotham and having been with Alba, I can promise you there is nothing to worry about in either regard :D:D

My goodnesss!!!:eek: You've heard a Gotham??? :p

I think at this point I am leaning towards 2 Conquests. I have also heard that the Conquests Blow the Gotham & the Velo 1812 away!

You may want to consider this, but I've heard reports and witnessed for myself the conquest amp "shutting off" during intense passages...has happened to craig, and a few others here on AVS. Not sure if this is a fault of the amp or if it is going into protection mode or what... but after it shut off it wouldnt turn on for about 15 min or so. That alone would make me skeptical in my decision, note this was at a very "spirited" level when I saw it happen but... the driver itself was not in any strain and the bass was clean so it was kind of unexpected... it just happened.

That shut-off is a thermal/overload protection feature and if I recall correctly, other subs from SVS and ED may also have shut down when pushed to the same limits on the same movie passages. It can take several minutes for the shut-off device to cool before resetting the trip switch etc.

I have come to the conclusion that we lack TASTE ;) nothing further to comment just a post saying the only interior design award anyone would win around here is the "What is the uglies thing you could put into a nice room" award :D

SQ and SPL stuff ignored obviously and yes I know UGLY DOESNT MATTER ;)

That shut-off is a thermal/overload protection feature and if I recall correctly, other subs from SVS and ED may also have shut down when pushed to the same limits on the same movie passages. It can take several minutes for the shut-off device to cool before resetting the trip switch etc.



I've never used or owned a sub that did that. That includes SVS...perhaps it is limited only to certain models? which ones did you hear do this? I've never heard of an SVS owner having their amp "shut off" during a movie due to overload.

I've never used or owned a sub that did that. That includes SVS...perhaps it is limited only to certain models? which ones did you hear do this? I've never heard of an SVS owner having their amp "shut off" during a movie due to overload.

I have multiple plate amps currently powering my drivers. They shutdown for a couple of seconds if driven hard (subsequently I lowered the levels to where that doesn't happen). I have also powered them with the QSC RMX 2450, it will clip (at least the red clip light blinks) at the same levels but of course does not shutdown.

Interesting... I've pushed subs quite hard... but never had it shut down for 10+ minutes... few seconds is reasonable though.

Interesting... I've pushed subs quite hard... but never had it shut down for 10+ minutes... few seconds is reasonable though.

It depends on how the thermal circuit is set up. Generally it's off at X degrees and back on at Y degrees, with Y being a lesser value than X. After that, it would depend on where the unit is mounted and how fast the heat is dissipated from there.

Assuming the thermometer is mounted to the heat sink above the FETs this can take anywhere from a few seconds to several minutes...really depends on heat sink efficiency and the difference between the Off and On temps.

Having a thermal protection that kicked off and on at the same temp wouldn't do much because if you flipped the thing back on at the same level it would immediately shut down again.

Current protection should be pretty much immediate shut down of the amp and it should click right back on since there isn't any current sitting in the amp that would need to leech into the surrounding air.

I would imagine from your description that you've pushed an amp into an over/under current protection but never a thermal.

It depends on how the thermal circuit is set up. Generally it's off at X degrees and back on at Y degrees, with Y being a lesser value than X. After that, it would depend on where the unit is mounted and how fast the heat is dissipated from there.

Assuming the thermometer is mounted to the heat sink above the FETs this can take anywhere from a few seconds to several minutes...really depends on heat sink efficiency and the difference between the Off and On temps.

Having a thermal protection that kicked off and on at the same temp wouldn't do much because if you flipped the thing back on at the same level it would immediately shut down again.

Current protection should be pretty much immediate shut down of the amp and it should click right back on since there isn't any current sitting in the amp that would need to leech into the surrounding air.

I would imagine from your description that you've pushed an amp into an over/under current protection but never a thermal.



I guess that is the case for myself then...as I've never experienced this "shut off". Speaking for myself here but I would be quite pissed if it happened while I was watching a movie or listening to music at clean loud levels. :eek: If one was to push the amp that hard for say several hours continuously I could understand such a safety feature...though. So in the case of the conquest for example or other people hiitting these thermal limits... it would come out of the blue so to speak since there "appears" to be no strain in the sound, or amp... or the driver... there is no audible "distress" of any sort...then it just "shuts off". I would then imagine you could reach the same thermal temp if you ran it at a lower level but for a longer period. I imagine installing a larger heatsink would only help so much. Waiting 10-15min to use a sub again.. well that would kill the movie for me unless it was a lord of the rings 5 hour extended edition or something :D.

Hi Craigsub,

Any word on the VSS?

I guess that is the case for myself then...as I've never experienced this "shut off". Speaking for myself here but I would be quite pissed if it happened while I was watching a movie or listening to music at clean loud levels. :eek: If one was to push the amp that hard for say several hours continuously I could understand such a safety feature...though. So in the case of the conquest for example or other people hiitting these thermal limits... it would come out of the blue so to speak since there "appears" to be no strain in the sound, or amp... or the driver... there is no audible "distress" of any sort...then it just "shuts off". I would then imagine you could reach the same thermal temp if you ran it at a lower level but for a longer period. I imagine installing a larger heatsink would only help so much. Waiting 10-15min to use a sub again.. well that would kill the movie for me unless it was a lord of the rings 5 hour extended edition or something :D.The driver's not in distress because it's rated to handle 3000w. The Conquest wouldn't be price competitive with a more powerful amp. Whenever I've read of this shutdown the sub was doing 120dbs plus. I'm not trying to be an apologist for Epik here, but the amp can reach it's limits before the driver...and 120dbs plus isn't what I'd call just "spirited". If it happened during your auditions at moderate volume levels, then there was probably an issue with the amp.

The driver's not in distress because it's rated to handle 3000w. The Conquest wouldn't be price competitive with a more powerful amp. Whenever I've read of this shutdown the sub was doing 120dbs plus. I'm not trying to be an apologist for Epik here, but the amp can reach it's limits before the driver...and 120dbs plus isn't what I'd call just "spirited". If it happened during your auditions at moderate volume levels, then there was probably an issue with the amp.



Oh don't get me wrong... I totally agree with what you're saying here... they had to make it competitive for sure, and it is certainly no slouch spl wise. I guess what I'm saying is... I would pay a bit more money to have some sort of feature that would prevent the sub from getting "louder" in the first place to begin with once it reached the limit... a "limiter" as seen in many other amps...so It wouldn't shut off unexpectedly. And I do agree that the levels were quite loud... If it was my money, the main reason I would get a conquest would be so I could play it loud, without any distress....be it from the amp or driver. If we were surpassing the amps capabilities...something like a cap from preventing it to reach the thermal would be nice. Not sure how much more $$$ something like that would cost to impliment though.

That "feature" of the Conquest was pretty much identical to the defect in some of the amps in the first early batch of PB13 Ultras. SVS quickly corrected the problem.

It's probably the same platform with different EQ curves :).

Who knows? Maybe a blind comparison would wind up killing the mystique. What if certain $1500 -$2000 subs soundly thrashed it performancewise? It would be like finding out that Jessica Alba was lame in the sack. :eek:

I am willing to volunteer for that test.:D

my Scarlett Johansson will beat your Jessica Alba

because mine's got bigger woofers.

It seems like we are slipping out of a conversations about subs and into something else. My bad.

The driver's not in distress because it's rated to handle 3000w. The Conquest wouldn't be price competitive with a more powerful amp. Whenever I've read of this shutdown the sub was doing 120dbs plus. I'm not trying to be an apologist for Epik here, but the amp can reach it's limits before the driver...and 120dbs plus isn't what I'd call just "spirited". If it happened during your auditions at moderate volume levels, then there was probably an issue with the amp.

I guess I'll play devils advocate here,

Speaking from a manufacturing cost perspective, its inappropriate to make something multiple times more capable than what the entire system is designed to do, that in and of itself is a waste. Could the component be skimmed down a bit to match the systems throughput and thus translate a cost savings to the customer with the exact same results????? I don't know this this particular case, but lets just take a CPU for example. I would not implement an expensive and small ultra fast processor just so i could eliminate pipelining complexly. I would use a less expensive platform and then implement a pipelined multi-cycle cpu for higher efficiency and the overall result is the same but the cost is considerably less.

So Ron, i guess it remains to be said, is the problem with the amp or with the driver? I will argue this is really not as much of a problem with either so with perhaps redesigning the error feedback, rather than total shutdown, maybe just attenuation? who knows, I think in the case with less capable drivers, the natural distortion of the woofer gives cues to turn down the gain, i guess in this case, the woofer has lots of headroom - good for low distortion and linearity, bad for driver distortion cues! but I'll take that tradeoff thank you :)

Hi Craigsub,

Any word on the VSS?

I have been away on business, and think it came in yesterday. To quote my wife, a "Really Big Box that looks like one of your subwoofer thingies was dropped off today". :D

:)

Blowing subs away...

One Epik Conquest subs will play LOUDER than the Gotham down to tuning. To be expected. There is much more o a sub or speakers than max SPL.

BTW...phoned Epik today I should have a quote sometime and get it. Will it blow the Fathom f113....in output do abetter yes,in SQ...I would not blow things out of proportion.

In any case, the Conquest is a gigantic value under $2000,and going for...$1599 a near steal. Lets be happy with quality subs and let the kids stop blowing things they do not own. :)

I guess I'll play devils advocate here,

Speaking from a manufacturing cost perspective, its inappropriate to make something multiple times more capable than what the entire system is designed to do, that in and of itself is a waste. Could the component be skimmed down a bit to match the systems throughput and thus translate a cost savings to the customer with the exact same results????? I don't know this this particular case, but lets just take a CPU for example. I would not implement an expensive and small ultra fast processor just so i could eliminate pipelining complexly. I would use a less expensive platform and then implement a pipelined multi-cycle cpu for higher efficiency and the overall result is the same but the cost is considerably less.

So Ron, i guess it remains to be said, is the problem with the amp or with the driver? I will argue this is really not as much of a problem with either so with perhaps redesigning the error feedback, rather than total shutdown, maybe just attenuation? who knows, I think in the case with less capable drivers, the natural distortion of the woofer gives cues to turn down the gain, i guess in this case, the woofer has lots of headroom - good for low distortion and linearity, bad for driver distortion cues! but I'll take that tradeoff thank you :)Kyle, that's a good point. I don't know the answer as to why the driver is overbuilt for the amp. That's a good question for Chad. In a conversation I had with him, he admitted that sourcing a more powerful amp is a cost concern. From what Craig said about the A7-900, it's amp limited as well. What protection scheme Epik uses is propreitary, but it's there and from what I've read, as you say, there are no audible clues.

The VSS has arrived, and is in the system. The cabinet looks like it has been around a while - I will post pics this weekend. Right now, I am doing the usual listening to some music just to let it do whatever break in it may require.

The VSS has arrived, and is in the system. The cabinet looks like it has been around a while - I will post pics this weekend. Right now, I am doing the usual listening to some music just to let it do whatever break in it may require.



Thats weird they would send a used/refurbished one no? I would be pissed if I paid for a new sub and it looked worn. having said that, I'm anxiously awaiting to hear your early impressions of this thing though!

The VSS has arrived, and is in the system. The cabinet looks like it has been around a while - I will post pics this weekend. Right now, I am doing the usual listening to some music just to let it do whatever break in it may require.


Excellent! :cool:

In any case, the Conquest is a gigantic value under $2000,and going for...$1599 a near steal. Lets be happy with quality subs and let the kids stop blowing things they do not own. :)

What would you say about a7-450? Since craig is not planning on getting one, may be you could? Somebody needs to tell us where it stands.

What would you say about a7-450? Since craig is not planning on getting one, may be you could? Somebody needs to tell us where it stands.

It isn't that I am not planning on getting one - The eD guys are still backed up in regards to production.

I think The Ear and I should BOTH get them ... you know, for world peace. :D

Craigsub, if you ever get the chance, could you please post output numbers on the SVS PB10-NSD for those who want to compare figures to all the other listed subwoofers ?

Thanks.

--Regards,

Since Craig is slacking I will have to pick up. But where stuff all this subsonic madness. I have like 14 large drivers on the way... 7 at home waiting for boxes.

I am a prisoner of subwoofers. :D And liking it.

Yes I will order a sub or two from eD a sealed and vented,18" units. First however a Conquest and some SVS Ultra.

This hobby sure is fun.

So far, the VSS is doing a pretty decent job as a subwoofer in our system. My son and I watched "I am Legend" last night, and there were times of some pretty good bass. I don't get the impression it is in the league of the Ultra, stacked MFW-15's ... and probably the Castle (it is gone, but a direct comparison was done between the Castle and the Ultra/MFW15^2).

We will get out some of the old favorites, and see how it does on those, and tomorrow my brother and a couple of other guys are hanging around after Easter dinner ... look for more updates then... probably tomorrow night.

Somehow I didn't picture that this sub would be setting the bass world on fire.

By Soundood's impression,the JTR Captivator is.

Somehow I didn't picture that this sub would be setting the bass world on fire.

lol, indeed, doesn't sound like Craig is too pleased

It's really old isn't it. For it's time it could've been revolutionary.

Craig might have listened to too many quality subwoofers recently and suddenly listening to a lower quality subwoofer gives a bad impression.

Or I might be wrong and maybe the VMPS sub is just not that good.

I kind of expected Craig's preliminary impression because the driver in the VMPS doesn't look particularly impressive.


I wouldn't suggest getting into judging a sub just by the appearence of it's driver. If you take a good look at that driver, the cone superficially looks a whole lot like the driver in the MFW-15.

Oops, I was looking at the drivers in the New Larger Subwoofer.

Looking at his list it doesn't look like anything in the price comes close the MFW-15. I was hoping there was something a little smaller in the same price that would come close to it's performance.

Looking at his list it doesn't look like anything in the price comes close the MFW-15. I was hoping there was something a little smaller in the same price that would come close to it's performance.

Unfortunately it's not likely you will ever see what you're hoping for. Small size + high performance = expensive. Think JL f113.

Unfortunately it's not likely you will ever see what you're hoping for. Small size + high performance = expensive. Think JL f113.

I have ended up thinking two of these into my home :D. Should be here at the end of this week or next.

Unfortunately it's not likely you will ever see what you're hoping for. Small size + high performance = expensive. Think JL f113.

Figured that would be the answer. Maybe my mind will change once AV123 catches up on their backorders or release the x-plosive sub.

Does sub placement vary depending on whether the sub is front firing or down firing? I ask because my hopeful placement is going to be in a corner behind a chair, and I am wondering if that should factor into my decision making?

Does sub placement vary depending on whether the sub is front firing or down firing? I ask because my hopeful placement is going to be in a corner behind a chair, and I am wondering if that should factor into my decision making?

IMO, It does matter a lot but not as much as if it had a rear port that was facing into the corner and driver facing the front or the bottom. You didn't say how close you will be placing it to the walls. Is there any room treatments for bass? Room dimensions Length Width and especially ceiling design/height play a big factor.

There is no cut and dry place/position where a sub will sound best. Just make sure you get a long sub cable and try different positions facing all different ways.

IMO, It does matter a lot but not as much as if it had a rear port that was facing into the corner and driver facing the front or the bottom. You didn't say how close you will be placing it to the walls. Is there any room treatments for bass? Room dimensions Length Width and especially ceiling design/height play a big factor.

There is no cut and dry place/position where a sub will sound best. Just make sure you get a long sub cable and try different positions facing all different ways.


It is a fairly large room, 24X18 with cathederal ceiling (15ft @ cnter) open to an adjoining room. Hardwood floors, no bass treatments. Sub would be about 1ft from one wall and up against the other if placed where I could visually hide it best.

I am interested in decent downfiring 12 inch powered subwoofer to add to my system made up of B+W fronts, DefTech surrounds, and an Onkyo 705. Any suggestions?

I am interested in decent downfiring 12 inch powered subwoofer to add to my system made up of B+W fronts, DefTech surrounds, and an Onkyo 705. Any suggestions?

Oh yes, I don't want to spend more than $350... any suggestions?

Oh yes, I don't want to spend more than $350... any suggestions?

thats going to be tough... I was going to recommend the ML Abyss since it can be configured down or front firing.. but that is out of your budget... the only one that comes to mind at the moment is the Klipsch Sub-12 at bestbuy or something... not sure what the price is on sale but might be closer to that 400 figure

Nice suggestion swerveddy

My suggestion is this (http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=407&osCsid=a0db2933b15ac272be739b079f9734c3).
Thats $25 over but shipping is free.

IMO, It does matter a lot but not as much as if it had a rear port that was facing into the corner and driver facing the front or the bottom. You didn't say how close you will be placing it to the walls. Is there any room treatments for bass? Room dimensions Length Width and especially ceiling design/height play a big factor.



Question, what if the driver and port are together on the face...what do you do then? does it have to face the wall.

What about twin Epik Castles under screen facing the front seats?

Question, what if the driver and port are together on the face...what do you do then? Does it have to face the wall. No it doesn't have to face the wall. Facing into the room will have the best appearance if that's important to you. You just have to try it many different ways and listen...... you could measure the frequency response if you are so motivated. IMO, front driver/ports is the best design but others have differing opinions. I think there would be less problems controlling reflections which cause peaks and valleys in response.

What about twin Epik Castles under screen facing the front seats? this sounds like an awesome choice if you can swing the $2K + shipping for 2 castles. I heard two Epik Towers recently setup that way and it was incredible.

this sounds like an awesome choice if you can swing the $2K + shipping for 2 castles. I heard two Epik Towers recently setup that way and it was incredible.


Well honestly its two 15" DIY subs (TC2K drivers, 6" ports) approx. 2000 Watt amp in 2 11 cf boxes. I just realized though that the design is the exact same as the Epik Castles or Towers.

So for the decussion I will use the Epik Castles as the reference point. Im very excited about the HT room and I will have it all acoustically treated with bass traps in all corners!

Note: I already have 4 18" subs in an IB array in another room so I dont know if this will beat them.

Oh yes, I don't want to spend more than $350... any suggestions?

I would suggest the HSU STF-2, a great downfiring reference sub.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

I would suggest the HSU STF-2, a great downfiring reference sub.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

Thanks for your input. My room is 14ftx16ft, with a 19ft ceiling, and with an open adjacent kitchen/dining area (not included in the above square footage). Overall, this is referred to as a Great Room.

I just called HSU research and they (Pete) recommended their VTF3-MK3 or VTF3 HO (both side firing) for my room space. Price is a lot more than I bargained for, but they explained that I need to move a lot of air and as such need more of a sub unit. I am currently using a 12inch KLH sub with 125watt power, downfiring. I bought this unit 4 years ago at Costco for $90. But this unit is not doing it for me with my new Onkyo 705.

Any comments on the HSU recommendation above, or any other recommendations in the $600 to $700 range?

Best Regards,
Larry

Thanks for your input. My room is 14ftx16ft, with a 19ft ceiling, and with an open adjacent kitchen/dining area (not included in the above square footage). Overall, this is referred to as a Great Room.

I just called HSU research and they (Pete) recommended their VTF3-MK3 or VTF3 HO (both side firing) for my room space. Price is a lot more than I bargained for, but they explained that I need to move a lot of air and as such need more of a sub unit. I am currently using a 12inch KLH sub with 125watt power, downfiring. I bought this unit 4 years ago at Costco for $90. But this unit is not doing it for me with my new Onkyo 705.

Any comments on the HSU recommendation above, or any other recommendations in the $600 to $700 range?

Best Regards,
Larry

No, not on my end. You need to look at cuft and not sqft. Just like Pete (HSU) suggested. Add the kitchen and dining and you're looking at a huge area. I honesty can't believe that you have B&W etc speakers and use a KLH sub. Sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

My apologies to rest of the membership but the above needed to be expressed.

You are right. I can't believe it either, that is why I am planning to change. BTW, my B+Ws are the Chinese mfg. units, so their prices are not so outrageous (the 685s for the fronts, and the HTM-62 for the center. I just have to deal with a social factor, my wife does not always understand why we need to upgrade, that factor is sometimes more difficult that the actual buy decision.

Best Regards,
Larry

In that case I would suggest you go and read craigsub's thread on subs. Thereafter, once you picked some in your price range, you contact the manufacturers and see if their recommendations meet with your criteria. Once that is done and you narrowed your choices, come back and ask specifics on those 2 or 3. You will find the forum much more helpful after that than what you have expressed so far. HTH

Thanks for your input. My room is 14ftx16ft, with a 19ft ceiling, and with an open adjacent kitchen/dining area (not included in the above square footage). Overall, this is referred to as a Great Room.

I just called HSU research and they (Pete) recommended their VTF3-MK3 or VTF3 HO (both side firing) for my room space. Price is a lot more than I bargained for, but they explained that I need to move a lot of air and as such need more of a sub unit. I am currently using a 12inch KLH sub with 125watt power, downfiring. I bought this unit 4 years ago at Costco for $90. But this unit is not doing it for me with my new Onkyo 705.

Any comments on the HSU recommendation above, or any other recommendations in the $600 to $700 range?

Best Regards,
Larry

I have recently purchased the SVS PB12-NSD and have it in a room 12X16X8 and wide open in an 'L' shape to another 12X16X8. The PB12-NSD does a great job in shaking the foundations in this small of space, even at lower volumes I still feel thuds and bangs through the couch. It has a good initial impact and goes quite low. I would suggest this as another option as well as the HSU offerings.
I now have the PB-13 ultra on order as well.

In that case I would suggest you go and read craigsub's thread on subs. HTH

DOH! He did post on Craigsub's thread on subs. :eek::eek:

Actually we just need to provide him the link to the actual tests: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136

that link is tougher to find since Craig is busy with his new business.

Good suggestions though :D:D

larryis1: epik Knight or mwf-15 would be the best in that price range, but you'd have to wait

I was just on the AV123 site and they are now showing July for the MWF-15, seems like almost all the lower priced, well regarded subs are on back order. Even the PB13-Ultra is on back order, albeit not as long.

I think the PB13 is no longer in back order. On their website, they say that most orders ship within 48 hours.

I think the PB13 is no longer in back order. On their website, they say that most orders ship within 48 hours.

the ultra would be great for that room, but he wants $600-700. epik, or ed might be catching up by now. the mfw-15 is so far out its almost not an option anymore.

Any updates on the VMPS?

seems like almost all the lower priced, well regarded subs are on back order. Even the PB13-Ultra is on back order, albeit not as long.


I think everyone should blame Craig :D and ask him to send you a loaner sub!! :D

We ended up with a very nice family reunion at our place for the Holiday weekend, and I was gone for a couple of days. There will be some "intense" listening sessions this weekends, along with some of the usual indoor graphs of movies scenes.

It is too cold and wet to do a GP session, with no end in sight for the next 10 days. :(

craigsub,
Will you ever test the captivator sub? That has me interested especially since I own their speakers. Right now I am building 4 sonosubs using the 18 inch ed driver.

Besides Craig, has anyone heard this sub? if so, what are your impressions? I was thinking of replacing my Hsu 2.3 in the LR since I can get this one in a wood grain. Any idea on the difference in sound I might get? I am in a 17x21x9 room.

Thanks,

MKTheater ... I think the first Seaton Sub here would be a Submersive ... but I could be wrong.

Run4Covr ... If you check on AV123, quite a few guys have MFW-15's ... many of them have also done comparisons. You will get quite a few responses there. :)

I read quite a bit of this thread, and refined my search. Would really like one of the HSU subs ($600+ range), however I have a space/height limitation of 19 inches. Their subs are 22 inches high. Any recommendations on 12 inch subs not exceeding 19 inches in the $600 price range?

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Best Regards,
Larry

I read quite a bit of this thread, and refined my search. Would really like one of the HSU subs ($600+ range), however I have a space/height limitation of 19 inches. Their subs are 22 inches high. Any recommendations on 12 inch subs not exceeding 19 inches in the $600 price range?

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Best Regards,
Larry

That is 19 inches in height.

That is 19 inches in height.

Well, is there any reason why you couldn't turn the SVS pb12 NSD on it's side? It's dimensions are: 18" wide x 21" high x 25" deep. In that way you'd be wthin your height tolerance.

I can speak for the power and sound quality of the SVS--I just helped my buddy get dual pb12 nsd's and they truly pressurize the room. It's pretty cool to feel the wind off the drivers at the seating position!

Good luck in your search.

Well, is there any reason why you couldn't turn the SVS pb12 NSD on it's side? It's dimensions are: 18" wide x 21" high x 25" deep. In that way you'd be wthin your height tolerance.

I can speak for the power and sound quality of the SVS--I just helped my buddy get dual pb12 nsd's and they truly pressurize the room. It's pretty cool to feel the wind off the drivers at the seating position!

Good luck in your search.


If I turned it on its' side, which way would the speaker fire, and how much clearance is needed between it and the sofa? Where would the controls and the connections be?

Larry

If I turned it on its' side, which way would the speaker fire, and how much clearance is needed between it and the sofa? Where would the controls and the connections be?

Larry

Do a little reading, bud.:D http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm

With the driver and port on the front and controls on the back, laying it on its side doesn't change the orientation of these components.

If I turned it on its' side, which way would the speaker fire, and how much clearance is needed between it and the sofa? Where would the controls and the connections be?

Larry

Like above, it won't affect anything in terms of sound, controls, or plugs.

The only thing is that the "feet" (which are simply little rubber pyramids) will be on the side now and you'll want to put some kind of surface contact between the sub and the flooring.

It's an impressive unit in my experience...

BTW, what size room do you have?

Like above, it won't affect anything in terms of sound, controls, or plugs.

The only thing is that the "feet" (which are simply little rubber pyramids) will be on the side now and you'll want to put some kind of surface contact between the sub and the flooring.

It's an impressive unit in my experience...

BTW, what size room do you have?

Thanks for the feedback. My room is 14X16 feet, with an 18 foot ceiling, and an adjacent open area for a kitchen and dining area.

Larry

P.S. How does this SVS unit compare to the equivalent HSU Research equivalent?

Thanks for the feedback. My room is 14X16 feet, with an 18 foot ceiling, and an adjacent open area for a kitchen and dining area.

Larry

P.S. How does this SVS unit compare to the equivalent HSU Research equivalent?

In the spirit of not hijacking the original thread, why don't you PM me Larry and I'll gladly share anything about my experience with SVS you'd like.

I haven't had any experience with Hsu, however.

I have had M&K and JL Audio experiences in my room, as well as, a host of lesser subs (like Klipsch, Atlantic Technology, etc.)

I'm sure there are guys here who have had both SVS and Hsu in their rooms and could give you their "data" to consider.

All I can say is that the build-quality and customer service I have received from SVS has been top-shelf.

I'm not at all surprised that Craig rated the pb 12 nsd so much higher since they upgraded the amp, etc. It really performs well IMO...

BTW, your size of room with the open side to more sq ft will be harder to drive than a conventally closed room. I'd get a hold of SVS customer service (like Ed Mullen) and check your room specs by them and see what they say.

Good luck and enjoy Larry,
Phil

I'm not at all surprised that Craig rated the pb 12 nsd so much higher since they upgraded the amp, etc. It really performs well IMO...

Phil

Did I miss a new ranking, I haven't seen any new numbers on the list for the PB12-NSD. I remember somewhere he said it should be ranked higher with the HSU VTF3s? I know Craig is busy, just wondering if I missed something.

I own the PB12-NSD and it is a solid performer. I am presently anxiously waiting for a PB13-Ultra.

Craig have you even ran tests on the JBL L8400? I'd love to know the results...

Did I miss a new ranking, I haven't seen any new numbers on the list for the PB12-NSD. I remember somewhere he said it should be ranked higher with the HSU VTF3s? I know Craig is busy, just wondering if I missed something.

I own the PB12-NSD and it is a solid performer. I am presently anxiously waiting for a PB13-Ultra.

I'm referring to the amp change of some months ago--Craig zoomed it up the list to just next to the +/2.

Jakewash, you'll love this... I've got a piano gloss Ultra sitting in my sub corner, but I'm inbetween my pre-pros at this stage and I have no way of powering it up!

I've had it sitting there for more than 2 weeks now! It's just killing me, but I've still got a week or more before my pre-pro gets here...

It wouldn't matter so much if I weren't a bassaholic, right?

The New PB12-NSD is on order - according to the website, it should ship today. The current ratings are with the original PB12-NSD.

We have not had the JBL 8400 here - and I doubt that we will. But, you never know. :)

Hey craig. I didnt see if you ever tested the eD a3-300....

I saw the a5-350 , but not the a3-300. Have you tested that?

If not, I am just wondering because I am thinking of either the Ed A3-300 or the AV123 MWF15. I sw how highly you rated the AV123 and I was drawn to that for the money.
But I have heard great things about the eD a3.

Let me know what you think or point me in the direction of your review for the a3. thanks. tom

they're in different weight categories. $700 shipped vs $505 shipped (with driver upgrade). a5-350 should be, by all logic, better than a3-300, but it was still edged out by mwf-15.

Wow. Im exactly 2/3 of the way to 10000 replies. Nice thread!

P.S. Love my valor

Stupid question, but can a subwoofer go over 100% THD? If it can, what is the maximum THD a subwoofer can produce?

Stupid question, but can a subwoofer go over 100% THD? If it can, what is the maximum THD a subwoofer can produce?

Yes, a subwoofer can. THD is the sum of all the harmonics ... ie ... If the fundamental is 20 Hz, the THD is the total SPL from 40, 60, 80, 100 .. etc ...

Let's say you have a subwoofer getting an input signal of 20 Hz, and it delivers 100 dB @ 20 Hz and 102 dB @ 40 Hz.

You are getting over 100% THD.

Hey craig. I didnt see if you ever tested the eD a3-300....

I saw the a5-350 , but not the a3-300. Have you tested that?

If not, I am just wondering because I am thinking of either the Ed A3-300 or the AV123 MWF15. I sw how highly you rated the AV123 and I was drawn to that for the money.
But I have heard great things about the eD a3.

Let me know what you think or point me in the direction of your review for the a3. thanks. tom

how big is your room?

Yes, a subwoofer can. THD is the sum of all the harmonics ... ie ... If the fundamental is 20 Hz, the THD is the total SPL from 40, 60, 80, 100 .. etc ...

Let's say you have a subwoofer getting an input signal of 20 Hz, and it delivers 100 dB @ 20 Hz and 102 dB @ 40 Hz.

You are getting over 100% THD.

Now that's what I call bang for your buck. Not only do I get 100dB at 20hz, but I get 102dB at 40hz for free!

You know, Craig, you could market that as a bonus "feature" of your subs ;).

Here is the VMPS VSS on the infamous WOTW Machines Emerge scene:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/VSSonWOTW.jpg

Somehow I see you selling this thing off pretty soon.

The VSS is actually a pretty good subwoofer. If one had it, and compared it to the typical store brand subwoofer in the $1500 range, it would stack up pretty well.

After experiencing the Fathom, Ultra, Conquest/Castle, MFW-15, VTF-3 HO pair, and the eD 15 and 18 inch designs, it definitely falls short.

It is a very musical sub, and I can understand why those who hear it on music enjoy it, but it is not a value leader.

Here is a single MFW-15 doing the same scene:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/MFW15singleWOTWSlow.jpg

The Ultra:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SVSUltraWOTWSlow.jpg

Did you try to tune the passive radiator?

Stupid question, but can a subwoofer go over 100% THD? If it can, what is the maximum THD a subwoofer can produce?

Yes, a subwoofer can. THD is the sum of all the harmonics ... ie ... If the fundamental is 20 Hz, the THD is the total SPL from 40, 60, 80, 100 .. etc ...

Let's say you have a subwoofer getting an input signal of 20 Hz, and it delivers 100 dB @ 20 Hz and 102 dB @ 40 Hz.

You are getting over 100% THD.

Now that's what I call bang for your buck. Not only do I get 100dB at 20hz, but I get 102dB at 40hz for free!

You know, Craig, you could market that as a bonus "feature" of your subs ;).


Actually, Carver did this with the earlier Sunfire subwoofers. I haven't seen more recent versions measured, but with the 20Hz maximum output limited, the electronic limiting produced a strong 2nd harmonic THD (1/2 wave rectification or a simple diode at the right threshold). In combination with the driver's own distortion, the system would produce more a 40Hz than 20Hz if you keep turning the level up with a 20Hz input signal.

Actually, Carver did this with the earlier Sunfire subwoofers. I haven't seen more recent versions measured, but with the 20Hz maximum output limited, the electronic limiting produced a strong 2nd harmonic THD (1/2 wave rectification or a simple diode at the right threshold). In combination with the driver's own distortion, the system would produce more a 40Hz than 20Hz if you keep turning the level up with a 20Hz input signal.

...In essence, a harmonic synthesizer.

I am set on getting HSU VTF-3 MK3... any problem using it as an end table and placing a lamp on top of it? This is a pretty heavy lamp so I am not concerned that the lamp will move. Concerned about the vibration effect on the bulbs attached to the lamp.

Regards,
Larry

I apologize if this has been asked in the past, I have been looking at this thread and may have overlooked it.

I am curious how the PSB 6i sub would compare to the subs on the list such as the MFW-15, PB12-NSD and Epik Knight.

Just based on specs, the PSB doesn't appear to be the equal of any of the 3 subs you mentioned. I'll let someone else who has actually heard the PSB chime in, but I'd keep my options open if I were you.

The 6i measures approx the same as the SVS PB12NSD

from sound and vision mag:
PSB:

subwoofer: 20 Hz at 95 dB SPL
109 dB average SPL from 25 to 62 Hz
112 dB maximum SPL at 62 Hz
bandwidth uniformity 97%


SVS:

subwoofer: 20 Hz at 96 dB SPL
105 dB average SPL from 25 to 62 Hz
109.4 dB maximum SPL at 32 Hz
bandwidth uniformity 97%

and the axiom ep500 for good measure
subwoofer 20 Hz at 80 dB SPL
104 dB average SPL from 25 to 62 Hz
110 dB maximum SPL at 32 Hz
bandwidth uniformity 95%

The SVS referenced by Sound and Vision is the old version of the PB12-NSD. The driver and enclosure have since undergone a redesign which Craig will soon be reviewing. SVS reports the update design to be +/-3dB at 18Hz. Illka's latest test shows 102dB at 20Hz and 111.6Hz max SPL at 63Hz.

Could you link the article about the PSB? I can't find it but I'd love to read it. I noticed on PSB's website that the +/-3 dB frequency response is at 29Hz, and saw in another article on Ultimate AVMag that it is down 10dB at 26Hz where it cuts off. That doesn't jive with the measurements that Sound and Vision provided, so I'd like to see what they measured and if it was another newer version. I appreciate your input and I'll be the first to say that I could be misreading what has been posted by the various websites and sub gurus. I'm not familiar with PSB subs and it's great to hear about more potential options if AV123 announces further delays.

does sound and vision limit THD when testing at specific frequencies?

Trying to compare S/V's testing to Ilkka's, AVTalk, Ed Mullen's or mine is impossible. Theirs are taken indoors, and often measure lower than the unit will do outdoors.

Check out the Conquest, for example, and I think it was quite a bit lower than what we got here.

Speaking of the new NSD - mine should be here pretty soon - their website said new units would ship on the 28th.

It has a date with the MFW-15 and the Ultra-13.

He has measured it twice
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/2170/test-bench-psb-g-design-home-theater-speaker-system.html

and

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/663/seismic-subs-page9.html

Those results make more sense. Nousaine tests using in-room response.

"I measured the SubSeries 6i subwoofer's bass limits with it set to maximum bandwidth and placed in the optimal corner of a 7,500-cubic-foot room."

http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Subwoofers/SubSeries-6i-Subwoofer#product_detail

keep in mind that he uses the same testing procedures all his sub measurements so it is still valid to compare it with other subs (like the SVS and Axiom) that he has tested in the past.

True, he's tested subwoofers for as long as I've had short hairs and is consistent in his methodology. That being said, the SVS NSD now available is essentially a new product branded with the same name. If I'm currently in the market for a new sub I'd await the results from the new model. Hopefully he can test the new NSD, MFW15 and Epik Knight in the near future.

Man, this is a LONG thread.

No mention of the Velo DD-12 (although I guess you can take a little info from the ranking of the DD-12?). I really like the setup abilities of the Velodyne, and they can be had on ebay or used for just about $1500 or so. Would the AV123 MFW-15 be a better set up and BUY the SMS-1 later? (I hate the idea of trying to set up a BFD, unless I am overanalyzing that item, it doesn't look like fun to set that up)

I am running B&W N804 speakers and corner load my sub in a medium sized room. I currently have an SVS 25-31 PC, I am tired of the look and NO PEQ and the SIZE is bugging me. Music>>>HT

Also, Surprised there is NO Revel B15a on the list, that was considered by some to be the pinnacle musical sub a few years ago.

I am looking hard at either a Hsu VTF-3 Mark III or SVS SB12-Plus for my system located in my family room with approximately 4,000 cubic feet. It will be hooked up to my Onkyo 705. We will use it about 85% HT and the balance just music.

Any experience with comparing these units? I know that there is a dramatic size difference, and that brought me to the SVS as it would fit between my sofas under an existing end table. The HSU would replace the end table as it is much larger. Either of the units would fire within 12 inches towards either of the two sofas that form the "LShape" configuration.

Feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,
Larry

That's a good sized room and your usage is mostly HT. The HSU is a much better choice because of both deeper bass and greater output. Big is better.

That's a good sized room and your usage is mostly HT. The HSU is a much better choice because of both deeper bass and greater output. Big is better.

+1

That's a good sized room and your usage is mostly HT. The HSU is a much better choice because of both deeper bass and greater output. Big is better.

+2

+3

+4

Card counters....

Card counters....

Time to change dealers and shuffle up...

how big is your room?

Probably around 15x15 but the back is open to the kitchen. So it is more like 35x15.

You asked me this in regards to my question about the AV123 being better then an eD a3-300.....

Any opinions on where the Epik Knight should place on craigsubs rankings. Also opinions on ht and music scores.

Irvin - I would think the Knight would finish higher than the Valor - it should sound like a Valor with extra power in the 20 Hz area.

The results for the VMPS VSS are in. The summary page will be updated later, but for now it scores 45 for Home Theater and 47 for music. Total score is 92.

The results for the VMPS VSS are in. The summary page will be updated later, but for now it scores 45 for Home Theater and 47 for music. Total score is 92.

Thanks Craig. Do you know when you would be retesting the new and improved HSU VTF-3 MK3?

The VSS is $1650 per each.
And then you need to buy an amp for it ... :/

And then you need to buy an amp for it ... :/

It comes with 1000w amp

Oh yeah, missed that on the site..I thought all their subs were passive

The correct price for the VSS is $1650 MSRP, which includes the 1000 watt amp.

I asked Pete Hsu about the "newer VTF-3 Mark III", and his answer was they were planning on something even newer to be tested.

The new "flat to 10 hz" sub !

The new "flat to 10 hz" sub !

Well, if this new Hsu sub ends up being the next killer sub, they better work quickly to get some facts out (specs and pricing) before the glut of backorders of the MFW-15 start shipping... ;) The new sub will supposedly have a smaller form factor than their current 3.3, which could be of some interest to some of us with WAF to worry about. But there's no way to know if it will even be price competitive with the MFW-15, which is frankly a huge selling point for the MFW-15 based on its apparent performance.

The new "flat to 10 hz" sub !

I bet that that's the one.:D

Thanks Craig. Do you know when you would be retesting the new and improved HSU VTF-3 MK3?

Are we talking about the HSU 3.3 that was purchased after August of 07? Or is there another version of the 3.3 that will be coming out?

Are we talking about the HSU 3.3 that was purchased after August of 07? Or is there another version of the 3.3 that will be coming out?

The HSU 3.3 that were released after August of 07, per Pete_Hsu, are more superior.

However the 10Hz sub is a totally new sub all together.

How about HSU 2.3??

The HSU 3.3 that were released after August of 07, per Pete_Hsu, are more superior.

However the 10Hz sub is a totally new sub all together.

So is craig going to update his numbers and review the new ones? That would be great because I have dual 3.3 turbos.

So is craig going to update his numbers and review the new ones? That would be great because I have dual 3.3 turbos.

I believe that HSU makes improvements to their entire line of subs as they figure out how to improve performance. I am almost certain that the VTF-3HO has been improved since it was introduced.

I don't mean the original snafu with the driver in the VTF-3HO. HSU is constantly looking for ways to improve its existing models. HSU does not introduce new models every time they devise a new motor or cone for its existing models.

I doubt that Craig can start to retest every subwoofer that has been improved. He is already committed to testing the revised SVS PB-12 NSD, however, other companies are making revisions to models in their line-up

I remember reading that the Onix X-Sub was being revised. I saw pictures of the revised X-Sub and the dimentions of the box were different as was the port. I have not seen a comprehensive statement describing the differences between the older X-Sub and the one that I saw a picture of.

I can't even say for sure if the X-Sub was revised. Maybe someone can tell us.

spyboy-

The new X-sub will be called X-Sub Encore. It is supposed to have a 200 watt amp versus the current 150 watt amp. New driver is supposed to be 10" versus the 8" in the current X-sub. No other specs have been released yet.

Personally, though, I am looking forward to the release of AV123's X-Plosive since I plan to add a pair of them to my music system.

Craig,
You mentioned that one of the engineers that does the testing owns dual Servo 15's.
Were the v1's or v2's?
What is his opinion if any on the Servo 15v2 and where it might rank in this list?
Thanks for all the helpful info you provide.

Yes, this is good question.
Where is Servo 15v2 in this rank list ????????????
Nobody knows probably !!!!!!!

Craig (or any other member who may know),

What's the name of the Steely Dan disc you use to test these subs? My Conquest is being delivered tomorrow and I wanted to pick this disc up to test it. Thanks! :)

And my apologies if this has already been asked and answered in this thread already. :o

The name of the disc is Two against nature ,I believe.

Thanks, DJ!

Craig,
You mentioned that one of the engineers that does the testing owns dual Servo 15's.
Were the v1's or v2's?
What is his opinion if any on the Servo 15v2 and where it might rank in this list?
Thanks for all the helpful info you provide.

His are the V.1 Servos .... And if I had to guess, I would say the Servo 15.2 would be on a par with the Maestro.

The New PB12-NSD has shipped, and should arrive on April 9. The VSS has been added to the collection in Manland - which now houses the A7-900, CDX-15 Sealed unit and now the VSS.

Craig, when do we get to read the summary of the VSS?

Craig,

Very interested in your view of the new PB12-NSD...I'll be checking back.

The New PB12-NSD has shipped, and should arrive on April 9. The VSS has been added to the collection in Manland - which now houses the A7-900, CDX-15 Sealed unit and now the VSS.

Just a little curious about this, as earlier comments seemed to suggest that the VSS was good but nothing special, and the score of 92 certainly doesn't seem remarkable for the price. Did you end up liking the VSS more than comments here reflect, or were there other considerations?

Did you try to tune the passive radiator?

bump :D

VMPS product literature says the subwoofers come stock overdamped, which may have some effect on the less than spectacular frequency response curve Craig posted. Just a thought.

A while back in this thread someone (sorry I forgot who) asked me for pictures of my quartet of Fathoms. I've posted some pics in the Fathom thread if you're still here and interested. Just the first 2 in there right now but the other 2 will go in soon.

Good morning all - I just got back from a quick business trip, and had a Private Message from the mods here telling me to shut down this thread due to conflict of interest.

Even though it was posted publically that I was starting Tweak City, and that I was going to stop the reviews, someone felt compelled to run to the mods and obviously lie to them about my "conflict of interest".

I will be posting the SVS results on my new forum. And as the information from the reviews was for everyone, if anyone wants to copy/paste the results to put up elsewhere, please drop me a PM.

Thank You. :)

Good morning all - I just got back from a quick business trip, and had a Private Message from the mods here telling me to shut down this thread due to conflict of interest.

Even though it was posted publically that I was starting Tweak City, and that I was going to stop the reviews, someone felt compelled to run to the mods and obviously lie to them about my "conflict of interest".

I will be posting the SVS results on my new forum. And as the information from the reviews was for everyone, if anyone wants to copy/paste the results to put up elsewhere, please drop me a PM.

Thank You. :)Well that sucks! This thread is a huge resource for us bass junkies.:(

Craig,

I have not seen you comment on some of the higher priced subs. Have you heard the Aerial SW12? I am considering it compared to the JL 113.

Any impressions between the two?

TY

Good morning all - I just got back from a quick business trip, and had a Private Message from the mods here telling me to shut down this thread due to conflict of interest.

Even though it was posted publically that I was starting Tweak City, and that I was going to stop the reviews, someone felt compelled to run to the mods and obviously lie to them about my "conflict of interest".

I will be posting the SVS results on my new forum. And as the information from the reviews was for everyone, if anyone wants to copy/paste the results to put up elsewhere, please drop me a PM.

Thank You. :)
Thanks for all the effort you've put in here, Craig. It's been a great help to me and, I'm sure, many others. Hope you'll continue to test subs and share your opinions elsewhere.

Guys, If you will recall, I said 2 months ago this was ending. There were a few loose ends to tie up, but really, with my getting into the business, it was time to go.

We will be doing some GTG style "fun tests" on my new forum.

As for the mods ... they are doing nothing wrong. I was irritated because someone had to toss out the old "conflict of interest" stuff, as if reviewing products from which I cannot profit is somehow going to benefit me. :rolleyes:

Good morning all - I just got back from a quick business trip, and had a Private Message from the mods here telling me to shut down this thread due to conflict of interest.

Even though it was posted publically that I was starting Tweak City, and that I was going to stop the reviews, someone felt compelled to run to the mods and obviously lie to them about my "conflict of interest".

I will be posting the SVS results on my new forum. And as the information from the reviews was for everyone, if anyone wants to copy/paste the results to put up elsewhere, please drop me a PM.

Thank You. :)


Thanks Craig for the note. To be clear, conflict of interest comes from the simple area of a long time enthusiast moving into manufacturing and having relationships with other sub manufacturers and consultants that are also in the listing. NOT THAT IT IS THE CASE, but one needs to consider this relationship when now viewing the rankings. As such, it can make for a conflict. (We have enough of that as it is and this would add to that issue.) Craig is very much aware of this issue. So thanks to Craig for also knowing he would need to discontinue the rankings based on his new businesses. (Sorry I missed the note on that some time back.)


Craig has been on the site for quite some time and has help many, many here. We have not only defended him in the past over his listing, but also supported it. We felt as a "super enthusiast" that what he was doing was helping others with no vested interest. (And at his own expense!)

So we very much wish him well with his new venture and thank him for the help he has given to the members of this site and more than likely will continue to give.

Guys, If you will recall, I said 2 months ago this was ending. There were a few loose ends to tie up, but really, with my getting into the business, it was time to go.

We will be doing some GTG style "fun tests" on my new forum.

As for the mods ... they are doing nothing wrong. I was irritated because someone had to toss out the old "conflict of interest" stuff, as if reviewing products from which I cannot profit is somehow going to benefit me. :rolleyes:

Link to new thread?

_______


David, in reviewing the standard method of dealing with conflict of interest and potential bias is to have a note of affiliation. This is most commonly done by review magazines which are often partly owned by manufacturers. That was done.

Craig's rankings did not include rankings of his own products. Any discussion of these products was quickly redirected and squashed.

There was also a independent quantitative analysis of the rankings which suggested that no bias existed in the rankings. This does not alleviate conflict of interest concerns, but it does alleviate concerns this conflict resulted in bias. Which is the point/concern with conflict of interest.

The point I'm making is simply that the administrators' handling of this thread in this way was very poor. So poor this lurker needed to speak up.

Guys, If you will recall, I said 2 months ago this was ending. There were a few loose ends to tie up, but really, with my getting into the business, it was time to go.

We will be doing some GTG style "fun tests" on my new forum.

As for the mods ... they are doing nothing wrong. I was irritated because someone had to toss out the old "conflict of interest" stuff, as if reviewing products from which I cannot profit is somehow going to benefit me. :rolleyes:

Sorry to see you go Craig, I purchased my dual HO's because of your review.

Can you give us a link to your new forum, or at least PM me if it is a problem to post it?

Thanks again

I would also like to know the link to your new forum, Craig.
Can you post it here? If not, someone please PM me the link.
Thanks!

I'm not going to post the link, but if you go to Tweakcityaudio.com/forum, it will get you there.

I'm not going to post the link, but if you go to Tweakcityaudio.com/forum, it will get you there.

Thank you Mojomike!

David, in reviewing the standard method of dealing with conflict of interest and potential bias is to have a note of affiliation. This is most commonly done by review magazines which are often partly owned by manufacturers. That was done.

Craig's rankings did not include rankings of his own products. Any discussion of these products was quickly redirected and squashed.

There was also a independent quantitative analysis of the rankings which suggested that no bias existed in the rankings. This does not alleviate conflict of interest concerns, but it does alleviate concerns this conflict resulted in bias. Which is the point/concern with conflict of interest.

The point I'm making is simply that the administrators' handling of this thread in this way was very poor. So poor this lurker needed to speak up.

They are both trying to present an amicable departure, especially considering how volatile the Subwoofer area gets.

Some will see something else here and some will not.

In the end, it is not our site.

Guys, If you will recall, I said 2 months ago this was ending. There were a few loose ends to tie up, but really, with my getting into the business, it was time to go.

We will be doing some GTG style "fun tests" on my new forum.

As for the mods ... they are doing nothing wrong. I was irritated because someone had to toss out the old "conflict of interest" stuff, as if reviewing products from which I cannot profit is somehow going to benefit me. :rolleyes:

Thanks for all of your hard work Craig!

Good work, Craig. It was great while it lasted--I'm among the many who have benefitted from your testing. Enjoy the next endeavor...

Well since the "Craigsub" is very inexpensive and the subwoofers reviewed here don't get interesting till $500 I don't see how there is a conflict but I don't own AVS forums....

Well done Craigsub, well done! However I told you once before you should have your own forum and make money off of the advertising hit it will generate.

In fact, AVS forum is pretty dumb to shut you down here...

On the other hand I have ALWAYS wanted to do this and wasn't quite sure when a thread was poised for lockdown so .....

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v346/MUCHO/Lock.gif

Craig,

Thanks for all your hard work and providing us a way to make decisions with something to compare besides just the manufacturers literature.

I guess the traffic will increase exponentionally on your Tweak City forums as a result of this. We can't wait for your products to come out.

See you over at TCA!

ARe the going to pull this thread completely off the boards along with your tallied results?

Mike

Craig,

All the best and keep the subs displacing air. You provided a great chart,with real contenders and no pretenders.

Long time reader, don't contribute in this thread much but I would like to extend a thank you and farewell to our friend Craig. All the best.

for me, it was the best thread ever, this list is a bible

RIP

thanks Craig

Be sure to check out Craig's new board over at

http://tweakcityaudio.com/forum/

His reviews and scoring are posted over there.

I'm providing this non-solicited link as someone that has thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread and wants to see it continue...

A big THANK YOU to everyone for the kind words. The SVS has arrived, and testing will start tomorrow on it.

I am going to use the previous PB12-Ultra as a direct competitor in our high end theater which comprises of AV123 Strata Minis, McIntosh amplification and a pretty nice room.

As mentioned earlier, the results will be posted on Tweak City Audio.

Sorry to see you go, Craig. I know you'll still be around here, but this thread has just been amazing! I'll see you over at Tweak City. :)