I do have 2 of them that I was able to get at 50% off. Well I got my 205s, 201s, 202c all at 50% off. But no one around hear carries the type of subs that have been mentioned hear. So thought I would asked if someone new how they stacked up. Thanks though!

The Hsu was in its single port, 18 Hz extension setting, both go very deep - based on the listening tests, the Hsu gained the advantage due to its better handle on music and its overall ability to handle dynamics - not the extension.
...

Hi Craig,

could I interperet that to mean that the pb12-nsd was better (qualitatively speaking) with movies when it comes to extension compared to the HSU 3.3?... how did they differ?
I'm not sure if you were able to compare the two during the 1st canon battle in Master and Commander, but I would love it if you could (maybe in your basement over the weekend).
I have the pb 12 and that scene is the one I always go to to compare.

Thanks,
Martin

Rockemsockem consistently gives good, sound advice about subwoofers. He points out as many viable options as he possibly can when someone asks the inevitable "What should I buy" question.

In fact, this entire forum has improved by a LONG SHOT over the past few years, in its handling of this question. It doesnt' get any better than that ... :)


I have to admit that when I first started reading Craig's test results, I questioned everything from his testing method to his company affiliations and intentions. We even discussed these topics privately, and he has shown me that he is on the up and up.

Is he the second coming of Tom Nousainne? No. But he is a guy that loves music, movies, and subwoofers, and just so happens to have the means to listen to them and give his impressions. If you ask him a question, he will answer it as honestly as he possibly can and without being a jerk I may add.

Even as people insult him, he never responds in a manner that is beyond what is brought to him, and I have to respect him for that. Because we all know it's easy getting into pissing contests on internet forums.

Okay, the lovefest is over. :p You're a no good, rotten.......... :rolleyes: :D

I have to admit that when I first started reading Craig's test results, I questioned everything from his testing method to his company affiliations and intentions. We even discussed these topics privately, and he has shown me that he is on the up and up.

Is he the second coming of Tom Nousainne? No. But he is a guy that loves music, movies, and subwoofers, and just so happens to have the means to listen to them and give his impressions. If you ask him a question, he will answer it as honestly as he possibly can and without being a jerk I may add.

Even as people insult him, he never responds in a manner that is beyond what is brought to him, and I have to respect him for that. Because we all know it's easy getting into pissing contests on internet forums.

Okay, the lovefest is over. :p You're a no good, rotten.......... :rolleyes: :D

I scond that notion. Craig has always answered my questions and given me insight into his reasoning. Many of us value his opinion and I would take his word over many of the so called "professionals" that spend one afternoon with a sub as opposed to his ownership, testing and head to head comparisons. He is an asset to this forum.

Craigsub does not claim to be a professional reviewer. This is just one man's hobby that he has been nice enough to share with everyone hear. So why pester the man about the legitimacy of his testing? Most people do not have the time our money to hear every sub on the market, let alone all the ID brands. If you do not approve of his methods or find them legit, don't read the threads.

I personally want to say THANKS CRAIGSUB!

I've read it. Hence my questions.

The thrust of what you ask for is fair enough and I believe is encapsulated in this earlier comment by you:

"A suggestion. Why don't you document and clarify your review and test methodology? Post a clear, considered description with lots of backup detail, photos, etc. It's less work than posting. As questions get asked and ideas forwarded, you can then revise the text as required so it is always up to date. Instead of spread out over hundreds of posts across multiple forums. Then, the text can be referred to by you and by others in the future. It would increase your credibility if it passes "peer review". You should also have a disclosure section IMO as there have been concerns brought up in those regards in the past."

I appreciate that this and the other related threads may appear as a disjointed incoherent rambling . To many others it is part of a longer open discussion about comparative insights generally and Craig's rankings in particular. The items you mentioned are indeed found in several threads but no one ever claimed these discussions were intended for a JES submission. Very few hobbyists have gone to the time and expense to present such a comprehensive analysis and ranking. Craig has been clear about what objective measurements have gone into his assessments and what part of the results are based on his personal subjective listening tests. Keep in mind that Craig did not start this thread and his "home" thread on this matter is at AV123. Craig's "credibility" is not at issue though the manner of your posts has certainly raised questions regarding your agenda.

No one is suggesting you take his ranking as the final word on these subwoofers and quite frankly I would have slightly different rankings on the listed subs I have heard. I do however have alot of time for someone who has been kind enough to present his assessment of these subs for the benefit of others. I have less time for someone who criticizes without offering any new ideas or another point of view and expects to be taken seriously because they were once an avid poster.

So if you have another relevant point of view to offer please state it as I always appreciate a well presented counter argument. Otherwise be kind enough to let this excellent thread run its course without sidetracking. As you can see from the various posters comments it is not Craig's credibility which is now being questioned.

More like RE-joined, see above. Been doing HT, stereo, DIY, HT construction, acoustics, testing, design, and other stuff for a very long time.

I live in Ridgefield, Connecticut. Why in the world would that matter?

As far as "peers" go, you'll have to trust me, I am quite knowledgeable in these areas and have a great system. What am I supposed to do post a resume? Or have you get to know me for a year or so and have you realize this? Also, as far as peers go, the idea is that this is an open forum to discuss things...I am not the only person reading your stuff...others can comment if desired...most won't. From this thread I have been contacted by others who have emailed me (sjmarcy aol) and I see that my sense was correct..there IS significant concern about these reviews. Some note allegiances. What is wrong with disclosure? If I was a reviewer I would do this. Some note many closed threads and vendettas. All note a huge amount of time for posting. Also, it is NORMAL for work to be peer reviewed. IF credibility and the pursuit of truth is considered important it is usually welcomed.

So ... We are supposed to trust you, but others need to prove themselves. Why is this not a surprise coming from you ?

The sad part, in regards to you and your "concerns", is everything you want to know has been repeatedly posted over the years. I even answered your original question here, and you ignored the answer, instead deciding to ask about allegiances, motives, etc ...

I also suggested you open a thread to discuss methodology, so we could keep it from interfering with the purpose of this thread. You refused this offer.

I asked you for what, specifically, you did not like about the test methodology used here. You refused to answer that question, too.

What is wrong with disclosure?

What has not been disclosed? Ask specifically what you want to know, and I'm sure Craig would be happy to answer.

Jeez, I've never seen somebody so vague. :confused:

No one is suggesting you take his ranking as the final word on these subwoofers and quite frankly I would have slightly different rankings on the listed subs I have heard. I do however have alot of time for someone who has been kind enough to present his assessment of these subs for the benefit of others. I have less time for someone who criticizes without offering any new ideas or another point of view and expects to be taken seriously because they were once an avid poster.



John ... You make a good point about the results from listener to listener ... when we do the tests here, it is never with identical results from each participant - the scores, as posted, reflect the opinions of several listeners, and no 2 ever agree on everything.

Of course, you have seen the sheets we use for the scoring, as you have been on the panel.

In fact, this entire forum has improved by a LONG SHOT over the past few years, in its handling of this question. It doesnt' get any better than that ... :)

Really......? :D

It’s unfortunate our old friend Ilkka couldn’t join us for cocktails ;)

Take some advice for once, ignore the distraction a.k.a. Troll - you’re giving him a life.

No one is suggesting you take his ranking as the final word on these subwoofers and quite frankly I would have slightly different rankings on the listed subs I have heard. I do however have alot of time for someone who has been kind enough to present his assessment of these subs for the benefit of others. I have less time for someone who criticizes without offering any new ideas or another point of view and expects to be taken seriously because they were once an avid poster.


Hey Jakeman, I would, for one, be interested in how your rankings would differ on the subs you have experienced. Just for curiosity's sake and to have another data point. :)

Craig, having been in your fine home and watched first hand how painstakingly you worked to make sure each sub was given unbiased treatment I know how careful you were in ranking these subs. Measurements and data analysis take you only so far and your considerable experience with many subs puts you in a unique position to rank these subs. Thats what makes your ranking much more beneficial than the usual collection of graphs and glowing reviews.

Its expected that everyone would rank that many subs somewhat differently but you ask enough people and I believe the majority would come very close to your ranking. That was pretty well how it went among the panelists at your last GTG. Peoples rankings were all different but the overall pattern was consistent. With regards to ssjmarcy I don't think he is a troll, just over pompous and too much attention is being paid to him, me included. ;)

John ... Thanks for the compliments on my wife's handiwork with the house - she did finally finish it, too. Hopefully, you will make the next GTG to see the finished product.

As Jonny suggested, it would be informative to see your ratings of the subs here ...

You know as soon as I hit the send button I thought I shouldn't have mentioned that I would rank them a bit differently because someone like Jon or Craig would ask. Ok seeing how I've been put on the spot here is my current sub assessment. I will spare everyone the usual long list of disclaimers. I will omit the subs mentioned by Craig which I have not heard and added some others. Also I am not in a position to defend a numerical weighting.

1. JL Audio 113 / Velodyne DD-18
2. JL Audio 112
3. Velodyne DD-15
4. Paradigm Servo v2
5. SVS Ultra/2
6. Axiom EP600
7. Velodyne DD-12
8. HSU VTF-3HO + Turbo
9. Axiom EP500
10. HSU VTF-3HO/SVS Ultra
11. Rocket UFW-12
12. HSU VTF-3 Mach III
13. SVS PB12 -Plus/2

This list is based on my listening and research of the above subs. Not all of them were listened in my room so the standard deviation is higher than Craig's list which has the added benefit of being from the same room.

HOLY CRAP I missed a lot of action today!!!!!

First....sjmarcy is a joke. I read his posts....laughable at best. To much attention as jakeman said.

2nd.....jakeman.....everyone is free to have their own opinions, and I value how you ranked the subs too. :)

3rd.....Personally I trust Craig and highly value his opinion. I could list reason upon reason why I do, but that would be boring and I really feel like going to watch Saving Private Ryan in DTS to furture my PB-12NSD testing :D

4th....Craig, and everyone for that matter, keep up the listening, post your thoughts and comments......try to stay away from speculation unless you have some insider information. That will keep the information that is posted more reliable because it is coming from people who have actually listened to the sub they are speaking about.

ONE more note.....my friend from Williamsport PA was up today and I ran him through a round of movie scenes to show off my PB-12NSD.

Jurrasic Park DTS---T-rex scene
master and comm---cannons
u571----depth charge
return of the king---elephants and mount doom
war of the worlds---lightning and pods

I'd say he was MOST impressed by the return of the king demo....BUT he was not like "HOLY ****"....it was more of a "that sounds pretty good".
He said I was nuts if I was really worried about 10-18hz bass and that I'm crazy if I sell this sub and buy a new ULTRA for $1300-1400.

Jeff....you are probably right, just get another pb-12nsd and then a MBM and call it a day. We cannot have EVERYTHING in this world, and Dual PB-12nsd's and a MBM, in a room that is not HUGE, would rival if not beat out MOST people's systems. I'd have frequency response that is down to 18hz and for 95-98% of movie scenes that will be more than enough. I'll also have headroom galore along with tremendous mid and high bass punch that can really slam the room.


Ok...I'm done....Saving Private Ryan DTS time.....I'll report in the morning :D

Ok...I'm done....Saving Private Ryan DTS time.....I'll report in the morning :D

Then you'll be ready for Band of Brothers DTS. I'm on disc 4. :D

Then you'll be ready for Band of Brothers DTS. I'm on disc 4. :D
Hold the phone!! Band of Brothers is available in DTS????

Curtis, you can still get this 6 disc boxset on amazon. Very entertaining DTS subwoofer workout.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/JohnPalumbo/bandofbrothersDTS.jpg

WOW I thought I was gona come home from work today and read more good post and comments and reviews on these subs, it looks like sjmarcy got most of the attention today you should of just told him "read the threads you'll find all the answers your looking for" and left it at that.

Personally after reading Craig's threads and post and his answering and responding to other peoples questions I trust and value his opinion

back to the subs I got my shipping confirmation for my VTF 2.3 today I will be receiving it on the 25th

Hey guys look since we're talking subs and the motives of sub reveiwers like Craig I thought I'd post what I just read over at Secrets. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_1/show-report-ces-2007-index.html
I guess we should question this reviewers motives too.

BTW Craig the time and effort you've spent reveiwing all these sub is very appreciated.

I would grab the HO/MBM combination for the extra $250 anytime, if the $$$$ difference is not a problem.


Thanks Craig, you rated the HO 1 point higher so I wasn't sure if you believed that it justified the difference in price between the HO and 3.3, but you have pretty much helped confirm what I was thinking. :D

Craig, do you have any plans to try the turbo on the VTF2.3? Better yet could you try the turbo on the 2.3 and let us know if it is worth it. I know that you can make it work. Thanks!

Curtis, you can still get this 6 disc boxset on amazon. Very entertaining DTS subwoofer workout.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/JohnPalumbo/bandofbrothersDTS.jpg
Thanks John!

For me, it was one of those shows/movies that you can't just stop watching.

OK I couldn't go to bed without a breif report about Saving PR DTS.

1. The opening battle.....just amazing. Every BOMB explosion had IMPACT and DEPTH....I could "FEEL" them blowing up in my living room. The PB-12NSD def. handeled it with flying colors.....I was so impressed. The entire system (svs speakers too) were really impressive....amazing DTS mix for this movie!!!!


2. The End battle....tanks rolling in, bombs exploding.....once again....impressive. I cannot even imagine what an HO, or ULTRA would do with a movie like this....


I really think that this puts things in perspective like I said before..."We cannot have EVERYTHING in this world, and Dual PB-12nsd's and a MBM, in a room that is not HUGE, would rival if not beat out MOST people's systems. I'd have frequency response that is down to 18hz and for 95-98% of movie scenes that will be more than enough. I'll also have headroom galore along with tremendous mid and high bass punch that can really slam the room."

bass can only go so deep....movie theaters can only reproduce movie bass that is so deep and movie makers know that......18hz as a tuning point with in room response probably pushing 15-17hz is going to do the job just fine.......especially with DUAL subs that are going to give a 6db increase in all of the frequency range......6db more at 18hz is going to shake the hell out of ANY house.....

GOD THIS IS SUCH A FUN HOBBY!! I WISH I COULD DO IT FOR A LIVING!

Goodnight Everyone :D

sjmarcy, I don't understand why you'd balk at revealing all the “experience” you claim to have. IMO a poster should not run for cover but should *welcome* this sort of thing. I don’t pretend to know much about subwoofers, but I’ve been posting extensively on the forums for more than 3 years, am very experienced, and a bunch of alarms have gone off in regards to your posting methodology and possible agendas you may have, and I’m *quite concerned* by this.

I’ve read your “vague and lengthy” posts. A Suggestion. Why don't you document and clarify exactly who you are, the details of your vast experience, and exactly the specific concerns you have about Craig’s subwoofer tests and reviews. Post a clear, considered description with lots of backup detail, photos, etc. Then, your concerns can be addressed by Craig, and by others in the future. It would increase your credibility if it all passes "peer review".

Oh, and please be sure to include any and all affiliations, business interests, relationships, etc. we should know about? Things that could bias or prejudice your point of view.

You seem to be pretty touchy on things like this for some reason. That is part of why it is very important that alliances, allegiances, affiliations, motivations, and so forth, be disclosed if credibility as a poster is considered desirable.

What is wrong with disclosure? Any poster should be willing to do this. it is NORMAL for posts to be peer reviewed. IF credibility and the pursuit of truth are considered important it is usually welcomed.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p :cool:


Then you'll be ready for Band of Brothers DTS. I'm on disc 4. :D Thanks John!

For me, it was one of those shows/movies that you can't just stop watching. I knew there was a reason I liked you guys. You gotta watch the entire series, back to back, over a two day span. You end up feeling like you went through the whole war yourself. WOW! :)

This weekend's festivities will include some peak hold graphs for a few subs. We have some requests for Master & Commander ... definitely a great torture test.

Plus WOTW has gotten REALLY old ... :D

Return of the King-----Elephants charging into battle..........and Mount Doom........

that Mount Doom scene might be one of the most impressive scenes ever!

AND

After Watching Saving private Ryan DTS.........When that First Battle Starts, for about the next 15-20mins you are in SUBWOOFER HEAVEN!

This weekend's festivities will include some peak hold graphs for a few subs. We have some requests for Master & Commander ... definitely a great torture test.

Plus WOTW has gotten REALLY old ... :D


I agree re WOTW :p ,

The first battle scene in Master and Commander (DTS track) is a really good one and although I am not a big fan of this type of animation, the Titan AE Ice Field scene is a really good bass tester.

Here is the infamous battle from Master and Commander through both the PB12-NSD and the VTF2.3 in its single port mode. Neither would go any louder than shown here, and the microphone was 11 feet from each sub. Both subs were placed in the identical position for this measurement. If you look at the SPL number in the upper left, this represents the SPL level during dialogue ... Dialogue was running at appx. 74-82 dB for both scenes, as run, and each sub was running 3 dB "Hot".

PB12-NSD:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/pb12mc.jpg

VTF-2.3

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/MCVTF2.jpg

that Mount Doom scene might be one of the most impressive scenes ever!

!

That scene is great for provoking port noise. as far as I recall it was the only time I ever heard my PB10 chuff.

thanks Craig...
what were your impressions in terms of the dynamics/feel between the two subs with this scene in your room... and then compared to the vtf 3.3 and the HO?... or is that what you'll be doing this weekend?

thanks again,
Martin

Great stuff as usual Craig. These 2 appear to be neck & neck.

Any chance you could throw the turbo on (since that evens the price difference out ;)
) so we can see the vtf2's LF potential?

Keep up the nice work and I can't freegin wait to see how Seaton's creations compare. :)


JR

Great user name, JR!!

PB-12nsd at about 102db at the 18hz tuning point to nearly 103db at 22hz.......impressive!

Now figure DUAL subs adding 6db more output and we are talking nearly 110db at 18hz-22hz...Even more Impressive!

The 2.3 really was right their with it for the most part, but looking at the graph it looks like a slight edge for the PB-12.. NO doubt which ever sub you have you are getting great performance.

Craig....any chance of the mount doom scene :D

I don't think the PB-12 would chuff like the pb-10 ManiacMiner due to the lower tuning and more headroom. ONE PB-12 is = 1.5 pb-10's....that is straight from Erik and Ron from SVs when I was first considering the PB-10 and PB-12 back in November .

I'm curious what the subjective sound differences are. Nice to see they can both push some good SPL though.

Craig, I'm dying to see how the 3.3 compares on this M & C scene!

I'm curious what the subjective sound differences are. Nice to see they can both push some good SPL though.


I totally agree about the SPL for these subs. We are talking about subs that can be purchased for under $600!!! (really under $550 considering you can pick up a b-stock pb-12nsd pretty easy on the SVS site).

Then you consider the BOOST of dual subs.....6db more.....then these PAIR of $1000 subs would be pushing nearly 110db....probably even more considering the room factors that play into everything.


ps........Craig another request besides MOUNT DOOM! LOL

Can we can an overlay graph of the 2 subs you just posted. I don't know if that is something really easy and quick for you to do.....if so, I'm sure we would all love to see that! :D

I totally agree about the SPL for these subs. We are talking about subs that can be purchased for under $600!!! (really under $550 considering you can pick up a b-stock pb-12nsd pretty easy on the SVS site).


And the VTF2.3 is $469...

And the VTF2.3 is $469...


I agree....$470 for the 2.3 vs $550 for the PB-12nsd (if you can get b-stock)

Both have about a $50 shipping charge.... so thats a wash (unless you can pick the sub up and saving shipping)

The PB-12NSD does give a 75watt power advantage though with 325 vs the 2.3's 250.

Dual PB-12NSD is very impressive, I really wonder how this setup compares to a single VT3 HO W/Turbo? I think they would be same in the 15-25 Hz region but dual NSD would be better above that.... What do you think guys?

Blaser do you have a dual PB-12NSD set up?>

No Sir! But I have a Jamo X8 sub which is very poor below 30 Hz, and I would like to make an upgrade in the 1000-1500 $ range, and your opinions are very useful for me.

Thanks

Hey Craig, hope you're having fun with the subs...

...something that's been on my mind lately and would like input on is that I've heard HSU subs were generaly more geared towards music whereas as SVS more for movies... correct me if I'm wrong... I'm not sure if that's because HSU's are more articulate whereas SVS's are more rounded (again I could be wrong on my reasoning as well)...

having said that, I was wonderring if it was possible to have two categories in terms of ranking criteria?... one for music and one for movies? (for those of us who are mostly movies or mostly music)...

thanks Craig, I hope that I'm not being too much of a pest...

cheers,
Martin

FWIW, I would think that in the case of two subs which are close in SPL capability, if one is better for music it should be better (more articulate, accurate, etc) for movies as well....

The VTF-2.3 will have the turbo installed tomorrow, and we will run the MC scene on it with turbo, plus through the VTF 3.3, HO, and the SVS Ultra ... We are supposed to get several inches of snow, so this will keep me from getting too bored ... :)

Thank God for a wind shift!!!!!

we didn't get NEARLY the snow they were forcasting here in Cleveland.....;)

...sounds like Winnipeg down there... :)

[QUOTE=craigsub]The VTF-2.3 will have the turbo installed tomorrow, and we will run the MC scene on it with turboQUOTE]


I'm confused...Does the turbo for the HO or 3.3 work on the 2.3?? I am very interested in the 2.3, but had no clue there was a turbo for it as I do not see it listed or mentioned on Hsu's website.

[QUOTE=craigsub]The VTF-2.3 will have the turbo installed tomorrow, and we will run the MC scene on it with turboQUOTE]


I'm confused...Does the turbo for the HO or 3.3 work on the 2.3?? I am very interested in the 2.3, but had no clue there was a turbo for it as I do not see it listed or mentioned on Hsu's website.

The turbo with the 4" ports can be installed on the 2.3 even with it's 3" ports. the main problem is aesthetics, in that the turbo is wider than the 2.3, so it would look ugly as hell, but will boost it's output.

Here is a pic of the turbo on a VTF3-2, which is the same box as the VTF2-3. You can see that the turbo is wider. I don't think that it looks any worse then the 3.3 with turbo.

http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?t=2109&p=

Here is a pic of the turbo on a VTF3-2, which is the same box as the VTF2-3. You can see that the turbo is wider. I don't think that it looks any worse then the 3.3 with turbo.

http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?t=2109&p=

Are my eyes deceiving me, or are the ports on the turbo wider than the ports on the sub itself? Is the 3.3 sub box wider than the 3.2 and 2.3 box? If not, what was HSU thinking when they designed this turbo (assuming its also wider than the box)? :eek: :eek: :eek:

The 3.3 is 2" wider than the 2.3 box and the 3.2 box. The ports are 4" on the Turbo and 3.3 and 3/HO, while 3" on the others (if I recall correctly).

Are my eyes deceiving me, or are the ports on the turbo wider than the ports on the sub itself? Is the 3.3 sub box wider than the 3.2 and 2.3 box? If not, what was HSU thinking when they designed this turbo (assuming its also wider than the box)? :eek: :eek: :eek:That is a pic of the turbo on the 3.2. The 3.3 and the HO are 2" wider. IIRC, the 3.2 has 3" ports and the turbo has adapters to make the 4" ports fit the opening of the 3" ports. The 3.3 and the HO have 4" ports.

edit: Oops, too slow.

Hey Craig,

Have you gotten a chance to audition the BMF or Submersive yet? I am really curious as to how they would stack up and/or if either would make into the official rankings...

Really impressed with the VTF2-3 hangin in there with the PB12. Also like some have pointed out, the HSU is cheaper by $130.00 assuming you don't get the PB12 from B-stock.

PB10-NSD owner here. This is my first post in this thread as it took a while for me to read through most if not all of it. I really appreaciate everyone's comments and Craig's extensive reviews and comparisons. What is the Mount Doom scene being talked about here? Is that when Frodo is in Mt Doom or is it at some other point of the movie? I don't recall ever hearing my PB10 chuff. Also, one movie/music video I'd love to see charted by Craig or anyone else here is the Blue Man Group "The Complex Rock Tour Live" DVD and/or the BMG Audio Surround Mix DVD from 1999. Both of these have amazingly low beats/frequencies. Specifically the Live version of "The Current" (not the music video) has a either a drum beat or synthysized beat that is 20hz or below which can't even be heard from subs that drop off around 25-30hz.

PB10-NSD owner here. This is my first post in this thread as it took a while for me to read through most if not all of it. I really appreaciate everyone's comments and Craig's extensive reviews and comparisons. What is the Mount Doom scene being talked about here? Is that when Frodo is in Mt Doom or is it at some other point of the movie? I don't recall ever hearing my PB10 chuff. Also, one movie/music video I'd love to see charted by Craig or anyone else here is the Blue Man Group "The Complex Rock Tour Live" DVD and/or the BMG Audio Surround Mix DVD from 1999. Both of these have amazingly low beats/frequencies. Specifically the Live version of "The Current" (not the music video) has a either a drum beat or synthysized beat that is 20hz or below which can't even be heard from subs that drop off around 25-30hz.


Yes, "Mt. Doom" refers to, I assume, Frodo's heartbeats while standing on the ledge before turning around and saying he's not throwing it in.

Hello:

Great thread going here guys. Thanks alot.

I am looking at buying a sub now and I was looking at the VTF 2 mrk 3 so I am happy to see it doing well (we all like ratification of our decisions, don't we? <g>).

However, it looks like th pb12 is doing well too.

I am looking forward to the continued discussion.

Splotto

(we all like ratification of our decisions, don't we? <g>).

one of the many reasons for the success of forums like these... :D :D :D

Hey Craig,

Have you gotten a chance to audition the BMF or Submersive yet? I am really curious as to how they would stack up and/or if either would make into the official rankings...

The BMF or Submersive have not been released to the public. A select few on this forum already have the Submersive, and the impressions have been quite positive. The BMF is debuting in a GTG in Detroit, but I wouldn't expect production to begin until spring.

Can't speak for Craig, but knowing him, I'm sure he'll audition these two subwoofers the first chance he gets. :) In addition, I'm sure that these subwoofers will compare favorably with the top tier of subwoofers, but we'll have to wait and see.

I knew there was a reason I liked you guys. You gotta watch the entire series, back to back, over a two day span. You end up feeling like you went through the whole war yourself. WOW! :)

Hi Jack. I finished it last night but it took me two weeks . It does give you a far better sense of what happened. Discs 2,3 and 4 contain many action and deep bass scenes while discs 1, 5 and 6 provide more of the character develpment and drama. I've always like the genre and its right up there with the best war films. :cool:

Yes, "Mt. Doom" refers to, I assume, Frodo's heartbeats while standing on the ledge before turning around and saying he's not throwing it in.


Yep.....I'm refering to when they first enter mount doom all the way through when Saron Blows up........so basically like a 10min scene with lots of impressive bass :)

The BMF or Submersive have not been released to the public. A select few on this forum already have the Submersive, and the impressions have been quite positive. The BMF is debuting in a GTG in Detroit, but I wouldn't expect production to begin until spring.

Can't speak for Craig, but knowing him, I'm sure he'll audition these two subwoofers the first chance he gets. :) In addition, I'm sure that these subwoofers will compare favorably with the top tier of subwoofers, but we'll have to wait and see.

Thanks for the info jhan!

I got the turbo to fit into ... or actually, on ... the VTF-2.3. It won't go "into" the port flare as will the Turbo into the VTF-3.3 and HO - and it is a bit nerve racking making sure it stays sealed.

The seal holds, but it is tenuous.

I used a hard back book as a spacer, and have the entire turbo unit placed "upside down" in order for it to work.

The turbo does enhance the performance, subjectively, vs. the unit without turbo in the one port setting. For example, in the Master/Commader scenes, the foot falls of the men running on deck hit more palpably.

The turbo is well worth the $100 extra, even with the 2.3 ... but I would spend the extra $$$$ for the VTF-3.3 without Turbo, as it performs at a higher level, and is an easier package with which to live.

Here is the M/C scene on the turbo equipped 2.3:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/vtf23mctrb.jpg

Non Turbo:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/MCVTF2.jpg

SVS PB-12:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SVSPB12MCpartII.jpg

The turbo is well worth the $100 extra, even with the 2.3 ... but I would spend the extra $$$$ for the VTF-3.3 without Turbo, as it performs at a higher level, and is an easier package with which to live.




Craig:

Again, thanks for the hard work and sharing your adivce. Good stuff.

Would you recommend the 3.3 over the PB12?

Splotto

Craig:

Again, thanks for the hard work and sharing your adivce. Good stuff.

Would you recommend the 3.3 over the PB12?

Splotto

I would recommend the VTF-3.3 over the PB12, based on performance alone. There are reasons why someone else would prefer the PB12, though.

One of the listeners during the "blind testing" portion preferred the PB12 due to its slightly (in his words) "richer presentation" of bass. Most preferred the VTF-3.3's more visceral and musical presentation, and it is also more powerful than the PB12... but the performance of the PB12, for $599, is still remarkable.

The PB12 Vs. VTF 2.3 is a classic case of music vs. movie subwoofer decision. The VTF 2.3 is a more accurate reproducer of instruments like stand up bass and kick drum ... and does a very nice job on movies.

The PB12 gives more of that room shaking ability that movies require, while being pretty good on music.

The $100 difference (long term pricing) and the performance of the 2 subs makes this an extremely tough call.

I think the verdict is that if you have the extra money to spend that you should get the 3.3. If not, the PB-12 is a good subwoofer and you wouldn't be missing anything by using it.

The 3.3 is 649 plus 75 shipping

the PB-12 is $599 plus $50 shipping.....

--I've noted before that if you look at SVS's site for 2 weeks you'll be able to find a b-stock for $549 pretty easy

ALSO if you email SVS sales and mention AVS you can probably get 5% off of a $599 model.

Craig & BG:

Thanks for the prompt responses and the advice.

Splotto

Anytime.....Good luck with your search! You can be sure whichever sub you buy, you are buying something of VERY high quality!!!!

Hsu Research handles "B" stock as well. I believe they give 20% off, and you get put on a list .. they then notify you when the "B" stock is available. The 20% is off the regular pricing, not "special" pricing"

In other words, the VTF-2.3 would run $499 - 20% ... or $400. The VTF-3.3 would run $560 (20% off the $700) ...

If this has changed, perhaps Peter Marcks could weigh in. The lower pricing of the newer models may have changed this 20% model.

Also - I ordered my PB12 as "B" stock, and I cannot find anything wrong with it. It looks perfect.

20%.........HOLY COW!

If that is the case that is def a dealbreaker for the HSU subs...


The reason mine was B-stock was because they dripped a SMALL drop of glue on the back lower left corner of the outside of the box. Amp and sub were both brand new and I watched him build it for me on the spot.

I agree....$470 for the 2.3 vs $550 for the PB-12nsd (if you can get b-stock)

Both have about a $50 shipping charge.... so thats a wash (unless you can pick the sub up and saving shipping)

The PB-12NSD does give a 75watt power advantage though with 325 vs the 2.3's 250.
To compare apples to apples you can get B stock of the VTF2.3 from Hsu. I think they mentioned they would be around $400.

(opps I missed Craigs response which covered this)

Ddavidson

There is no longer a list to get on for HSU B-stock. They list it on their site, first come first serve, and currently there are none available. I assume most b-stock will be auditioned subs returned etc. I think current special pricing is more than reasonable IMOP! I am saving up for the 3.3......

Anka

Hsu Research handles "B" stock as well. I believe they give 20% off, and you get put on a list .. they then notify you when the "B" stock is available. The 20% is off the regular pricing, not "special" pricing"

In other words, the VTF-2.3 would run $499 - 20% ... or $400. The VTF-3.3 would run $560 (20% off the $700) ...

If this has changed, perhaps Peter Marcks could weigh in. The lower pricing of the newer models may have changed this 20% model.

Also - I ordered my PB12 as "B" stock, and I cannot find anything wrong with it. It looks perfect.
I was talking to the girl @ HSU the other day the b stock is first come first serve now, no more waiting list you have to watch their site for avaibility and call to place your order

There is no longer a list to get on for HSU B-stock. They list it on their site, first come first serve, and currently there are none available. I assume most b-stock will be auditioned subs returned etc. I think current special pricing is more than reasonable IMOP! I am saving up for the 3.3......

Anka
oops sorry you beat me to the post

To Craig and all experienced folks... here's one of the neverending questions:

How do you see dual PB 12 NSD vs single HO W/T in all areas (deep bass, mid bass....)

Do you know the NSD woofer material?

Thanks

To Craig and all experienced folks... here's one of the neverending questions:

How do you see dual PB 12 NSD vs single HO W/T in all areas (deep bass, mid bass....)

Do you know the NSD woofer material?

Thanks


This will answer your NSD woofer design...copy and pasted right from SVS's website.

# SVS designed, US-built, high-temp aluminum voice coil with Mil-spec polyimide insulation
# Double-stacked, select-grade ferrite magnet
# Dual, progressive custom spiders with integrated tinsel leads
# Heavy-gauge, deep-stamped steel basket
# High-excursion, custom NBR surround (Nitrile Buna-N Rubber)
# High-strength/low-mass polypropylene SVS cone with inverted dustcap
# Polyamide former/bobbin for max temp tolerance
# Low-carbon 1008 steel single-piece T-Yoke and gap plate (electrophoresis finish)
# Absolute highest quality acrylic adhesives used throughout
# Extra-high efficiency, extended long throw design

Polypropylene cone

I just thought I saw in a forum it was Kevlar, that's why I'm asking!

Here is the VTF-3.3 with turbo on Master and Commander ... The battle scene really is an excellent torture test.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/vtf33MCtrb.jpg

And of course, its natural competitor ... the PB12-NSD

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SVSPB12MCpartII.jpg

EDIT ... and the VTF-3.3 without Turbo, in the 2 port setting. (25 Hz tuning).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/vtf33mcnotrb.jpg

WOW....the real difference with the 3.3 with turbo and the PB-12nsd seems to be from 25hz and UP to the 50hz point.

The sub 25hz frequency response db level seem to be withing 2-4db of each other..

So looking at that graph I'm impressed with how the PB-12nsd stacked up to the 3.3 with turbo.

$600 vs $749.....still a tough choice for many.

WOW....the real difference with the 3.3 with turbo and the PB-12nsd seems to be from 25hz and UP to the 50hz point.

The sub 25hz frequency response db level seem to be withing 2-4db of each other..

So looking at that graph I'm impressed with how the PB-12nsd stacked up to the 3.3 with turbo.

$600 vs $749.....still a tough choice for many.
You got to remember though...this is not a max output graph....so saying "The sub 25hz frequency response db level seem to be withing 2-4db of each other.." does not reflect max output differences.

I guess it depends how you want to look at it. Most bass reproduction is 25hz and up which the 3.3 appears to be outputting much better than the 12nsd. Output and linearity in the mid/high bass usually makes for a better sounding sub. Doesn't look like much of a contest to me.

Ok ... looks like we need to run the VTF-3.3 without turbo, too. Back in a little while ... :)

Can you describe the scene measurement process in a paragraph or two? Thanks.

We use a Gold Line Microphone and Calibrator, to accurately set the input level using a known 94 dB input level into the TrueRTA software. The software is calibrated each time.

The sound card is an M-Audio Mobile-pre USB powered pre-amp.

For each measurement, the subwoofer in question is placed in the identical spot in our room, and the microphone is also in the same location.

The scene is run, with the True RTA on a Peak Hold setting, and the scene is repeated until the subwoofer either audibly distorts, bottoms, or the limiter kicks in.

That graph is then pasted and stored.

I understand you were examining the VTF2-mark 3. Any score/evaluation report to provide to your interested audience?

FWIW, I find your research to be very, very interesting and valuable. Thanks for having this "hobby."

Thanks....

I understand you were examining the VTF2-mark 3. Any score/evaluation report to provide to your interested audience?

FWIW, I find your research to be very, very interesting and valuable. Thanks for having this "hobby."

Thanks....

Still working on the VTF-2.3 ... it is a tremendous value sub. Before giving it a value, we need a few others to check it out. :)

Guys ... I added the VTF 3.3 w/o turbo graph above.

I hear you. FWIW I mostly use SpectraPlus, or various other packages, all sorts of hardware. How are you playing the scene? How repeatable are the measurements? Subs might be in the "same spot" yet not be loading the room in exactly the same way due to some differences in where/how the device produces sound, as in aiming a sub or ensuring sufficent clearance. What is the noise floor of the room? What does your software call a peak? What steps have you taken to ensure that room noise is under control as in bzzing / resonating objects and construction. To really measure the low stuff most accurately, some measure late at night so there is an extra low noise floor related to any traffic, planes, etc.

Here is the noise floor. If you don't understand how repeatable the scenes are, then you are not quite as experienced at this as you profess. It has all been explained in previous posts.

Enclosed also is a picture of the room. Rather than continue with a barrage of pseudo-intellectual questions, why don't you tell us all how you would run the same tests I am conducting here. ;)

The noise floor ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/noisefloor-1.jpg

The room and some of the participants...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/speakers048.jpg

I hear you. FWIW I mostly use SpectraPlus, or various other packages, all sorts of hardware. How are you playing the scene? How repeatable are the measurements? Subs might be in the "same spot" yet not be loading the room in exactly the same way due to some differences in where/how the device produces sound, as in aiming a sub or ensuring sufficent clearance. What is the noise floor of the room? What does your software call a peak? What steps have you taken to ensure that room noise is under control as in bzzing / resonating objects and construction. To really measure the low stuff most accurately, some measure late at night so there is an extra low noise floor related to any traffic, planes, etc.

LOL!!! "sjmarcy", your motivations are so obvious it is quite hilarious :rolleyes: . Now why don't you come out of hiding and use your real name so we can all know which sub manufacturer you represent? ;) :p

The noise floor ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/noisefloor-1.jpg



Check if there were no locomotives rolling by when you were testing. :p As someone will always question what you measured if it does not put his sub in a good light. :p

Choo choo I hear locomoties,towing many motives.


Nice wall of subs,now you need more and stack em. ;)

Craig, your results on the M & C scene are especially gratifying for me because they back up objectively what I was already hearing subjectively (and writing about in another recent AVS thread) as I have been putting in many hours of music and movie listening to my own PB12NSD and VTF3.3. The M & C battle scene was one in particular that had left me wanting when played through the PB12 and your graph clearly shows why - at 45hz the 3.3 w/Turbo is putting out a whopping 14.5db more than the PB12 - 104db vs. 89.5db. No wonder my subjective listening showed much more mid-bass slam and overall dynamics through the VTF3.3! And the graphs also show why switching to max output mode had me hearing even greater dynamic ability, registering another 4db output at 45hz on that scene (at 108db, a full 18.5db more than the PB12!).

The PB12NSD has been pretty decent on some movies over the last 4 months, but in my large room the VTF3.3 takes the dynamics and mid-bass impact up to a whole new level, in addition to it sounding noticeably more musical to my ears.

Thanks again Craig for sharing the results of your labors!

didn't i tell you to bugger off?

OMG...can you see why I ask these questions...(my bold).


Yes, because there's no way an HSU sub could be better than a similarly-priced SVS sub...

I understand repeatability. I understand things like voice coils getting hot too. In your picture of "some of the participants", where is the location used for the test? I guess you shuffle each to the same spot in turn? Your procedures are not succinctly covered.

sjmarcy,

I'm new here. I've been doing lots of reading here and have learned lots from Craigsub and many others. I'm grateful for the people like him who have the passion, time, means, and above all the willingness to share what they learn. You on the other hand bog down the threads with childish posts attempting to show that you're more knowledgeable or astute. If you are why don't you share some of your results so that we might compare them to what Craigsub has found?

Or you could cut to the chase and tell us what you really want. I'm guessing it's an invite to Craigsubs place to play with all of his wonderful subsonic toys!


Cheers,

Glitch

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/speakers048.jpg

Completely off topic (but more friendly), but that's pretty cool wallpaper in your listening room.

OMG...can you see why I ask these questions...(my bold).
Enough Already! :mad:

Does the moderator need to put a stop to this? :rolleyes:

Conversely, since you have ignored the suggestion several times previously, can somebody with the right connections and info start a new thread, preferably a "sticky", that goes over methodolgy for testing, along with some (brief?) explanations of the shortcomings of measuring bass response (human hearing/perception, room nulls and voids, frequency cancelation and reinforcement etc.) so that we can get on with this?

Craigsub, keep up the good work! Yours is at least a well reasoned and knowledgeable voice that I, for one, have come to respect. We may all have our biases, but I think you're trying your damndest, and it takes alot of hard work.

Let me add my thanks to the efforts you have made to compare a wide variety of subs, that most of us willl never have the opportunity to hear and/or compare fro ourselves. It helps us to decide which ones to limit ourselves to for our own decisions in a given price/performance/size category. There's no way I could compare all the ones I initially considered. (I don't think I would want to have 6-10 factory direct subs shipped to my place, then shlep the heavy ba$t@rd$ around, only to ship them back).

Sjmarcy, just go away unless you want to make a valid contribution. :(

sjmarcy,

What exactly do you purport is wrong with craigsub's testing methodology that leads to results you think are impossible?

Does he have to take a video of hooking each sub up, running the test, and showing the readout and put it on YouTube?

Everyone,

Any opinions on the Martin Logan series of subwoofers? I have a Grotto and I love it, but its very tight and does not overwhelm me with its power. It is 250W RMS. I was thinking about running another sub off the analogs from the Grotto (sub out too). Sound like a good idea?

What are your opinions (if any) of the Grotto? What would be a good companion sub?
What do you think of the Descent? P.S. Money is a concern, the Descent is just a dream right now. I got the Grotto for music (I feel it was worth it, but was fairly expensive nonetheless), this sub would drive HT needs primarily.

Thanks for the info I've gotten so far.

I am sorry that you are upset. FWIW note something about forums. Most people lurk. I have rec'd emails from readers / lurkers / posters who do not wish to post in this thread. They'll just be attacked. But rest assured I am not the only one with concerns about these Craigsub reviews. So, in that way, you might see that I *have* been making valid contributions here. As do others.
Then start the new thread on testing methodolgy.

You want me to document and explain Craigsub's tests?

No, I want you to explain precisely how you would go about handling these tests.

The floor is yours. Please, elaborate.

sjmarcy - I think people are getting a little agitated because the majority of your questions have been answered before, ad nauseum, nearly every time Craigsub either posts about a sub or scratches his ass. It starts to look like casting doubt for the sake of it.

Personally, I think Craig takes many more steps than 90% of this population to make a quality subjective assessment of a product and to back up that assessment by examining objective data. He's human so errors can occur, but if you want him to control his room so the pressure altitude and temperature is the same for every millisecond of his testing, then I think you're asking a little much.....

Also - why are you hesitant to start another thread for "Sub Testing Methodology." I think it would be more productive there - by discussing the nitnoid details of the test there, we can focus on the products and the evaluations here. I don't see why that's a big deal...

And regarding that 15-18dB difference - instead of scoffing at that, why not ask craig to investigate that further? Data like that definitely needs to be amplified. Actually - speaking of that - Hey Craig :), do those measurements match up with your listening impressions? Do you have any thoughts to share on that difference in peak spl? That's a very large apparent difference in output capability, and amazing if true.

Edit - sjmarcy, please do share what you would do differently.

Dynamic vs. static testing can show quite a few different results. For example, let's look at the PB12-NSD vs. the VTF-2.3 ...

VTF 2.3:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/MCVTF2.jpg

PB12-NSD:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/pb12mc.jpg

Note how close they are in performance, even at the 45 Hz.

While doing these tests, the area being observed was the 15 to 30 Hz area, for maximum output, and the subwoofers were being increased 3 dB at a time, with about 120 seconds between tests, until compression set in. It is likely that the limiters were causing some of the differences we are seeing in that 40-45 Hz area.

I would not be surprised to see the PB12-NSD to have a higher SPL ability @ 45 Hz when not pushing the subwoofer quite so hard. I will run some graphs again tomorrow, and see what happens.

Craig, I have asked you several times to go over in detail your procedures. You said it was covered elsewhere (Av123). I read that thread and it is quite long. As I posted early on, why not just summarize your review and measurement process. People seem to be interested. Perhaps it can be stickied or hosted elsewhere. Then you can just refer folks to that section, and folks can refer to it on their own as required,and you can keep it always up-to-date. And it can be peer-reviewed and enhanced over time to the benefit of all.

Instead, you are asking me to document what you do? It seems to me that this should fall on your shoulders. I am not the one making all the subwoofer reviews and tests here. You are.
You are self admitedly "not a sub reviewer", but raise questions about his methodology. You keep saying his test methods have shortcomings. What is your expertise that you know his methods are wanting?

This could be an opportunity for all of us to learn something, yet you refuse to take the very easy step of starting a new thread. Even if you don't know all there is to know about testing, if we pool the considerable knowledge base of those who visit this forum regularly (go through and look for yourself, several are designers from the industry) into a separate thread, we could see these "shortcomings", and Craigsub would be "exposed"! :) :rolleyes:

Okay so you are now saying that the 14.5 to 18.5 dB difference was real. And that you will test again tomorrow (today). But..didn't you just discuss your repeatability a few moments ago? Okay fine...

Precisely *duplicate* the 14.5 dB difference between those two subs (measure both). Then *duplicate* the 18.5 dB difference. Then do your other tests showing "normal" representative behavior.

Folks, this is why it should be okay to ask these types of questions and to look into things.

I am going to do the entire forum a favor ... you are now in my ignore list.

If sjmarcy decides to actually post something meaningful, would someone please drop me a line ?

Folks, this is why it should be OK to ask these types of questions and to look into things. Whenever I measure things...it is rare not to find weird things occur, or new questions raised. If we knew everything already, why bother testing?


All you said was "impossible" and "OOOHHHHKAAAAYYYY." If you had specific questions about a specific test and the specific results that you don't understand, why not ask them rather than scoff?

Why not? Hsu makes great stuff.

I believe you missed bri's facetiousness.

I give!

First person I've ever put on my "ignore" list. :(

sjmarcy, what you are failing to see is that nobody is saying that the VTF-3 MK3 has 18dB higher output capability than the PB12. In fact if you were to do a max output test using test tones, the PB12 would probably measure much closer to the VTF-3 MK3.

The reason why there is such huge difference in the graphs is due to something else other than max output. Frequency response is one possibility. Peak output is another. Perhaps if you actually looked at the graphs you would understand. The PB12 has nearly as good output around 20-30hz. It's at 45hz where you see a bigger difference.

Also RossandWendy is not saying that he believes the VTF-3 MK3 is better because of Craig's graphs. He already knows that based on what he heard with his own ears. The graphs merely support what he already knew.

Is there anything decent between $199 and $899? How about $400 and under?

how would my SVS cylinder SVS PC-ultra compare to the VTF-3 HO Subwoofer with Turbocharger?

I don't represent any sub manufacturers.

sjmarcy, you conveniently forgot to disclose that you & SVS co-founder Tom Vodhanel are old buddys from way back and you know him well "from behind the scenes" (your own phrase), and Tom V. even remarks that he owes his subwoofer beginnings to you:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?p=3054092#post3054092

As I said all along, you definitely came here with a [not so hidden] agenda...

I give!

First person I've ever put on my "ignore" list. :(

Ditto.

sjmarcy, you conveniently forgot to disclose that you & SVS co-founder Tom Vodhanel are old buddys from way back and you know him well "from behind the scenes" (your own phrase), and Tom V. even remarks that he owes his subwoofer beginnings to you:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?p=3054092#post3054092

As I said all along, you definitely came here with a [not so hidden] agenda...

So Tom sent in the troops?

IGNORE sjmarcy

He is getting us off the great topic we have started here and questioning a member that we all trust and respect for what he does. Without him many of us would never have the chance to have some feedback about other subs. SJMARCY SHUT UP. This should be the last post where ANY of us give this idiot the time of day.

sjmarcy, what you are failing to see is that nobody is saying that the VTF-3 MK3 has 18dB higher output capability than the PB12. In fact if you were to do a max output test using test tones, the PB12 would probably measure much closer to the VTF-3 MK3.

The reason why there is such huge difference in the graphs is due to something else other than max output. Frequency response is one possibility. Peak output is another. Perhaps if you actually looked at the graphs you would understand. The PB12 has nearly as good output around 20-30hz. It's at 45hz where you see a bigger difference.

Also RossandWendy is not saying that he believes the VTF-3 MK3 is better because of Craig's graphs. He already knows that based on what he heard with his own ears. The graphs merely support what he already knew.

If you look further, you will also see that the VTF 2.3 is about 10 dB lower than the VTF-3.3 @ 45 Hz. Most of the times, when we see SPL #'s for subwoofers on movies, all we see is the total SPL during a particular scene.

For example, when Ed Mullen tested the PB12-Plus, he saw the following total SPL levels during movies scenes:

Given the results I obtained in the objective testing, it came as no surprise that the PB12-Plus is a real powerhouse for HT applications. In the 20 Hz tune, sound pressure peaks of 112 dB - 114 dB (C-weighted Fast) were definitely within the audibly clean and uncompressed limits of the PB12-Plus, which is very impressive for a single 12” driver subwoofer. In the 16 Hz tune, I was able to coax about 108-110 dB (C-weighted Fast) peaks from PB12-Plus before I heard audible distress, which is still an excellent performance, and enough for all but the most ardent bass heads.

Subjectively, the 20 Hz tune feels the most muscular, while the 16 Hz tune is a bit more restrained. Since I place a priority on output dynamics and a lack of compression, my personal preference for HT applications was the 20 Hz tune. However, another enthusiast might prefer a lower play back level and place a higher priority on ultra deep extension, and therefore might opt for the 16 Hz tune instead.

Here, Ed tells us the total SPL being delivered during the scene. What we DON'T know is the effect of the limiters, limits of the drivers, and amp, during dynamic scenes on different frequencies.

Let's take out the PB12-NSD, and merely look at the Hsu 2.3 and 3.3 - in static tests, will the 3.3 out SPL the 2.3 by 10 dB @ 45 Hz ?

No, it will not ...

But when it is being driven into compression, or close to it, in a dynamic situation like the MC battle scene, it does.

Is there anything decent between $199 and $899? How about $400 and under?

There are a LOT of decent subs in this price range ... look at these in the under $400 range

Onix X-sub ... $199
Hsu STF-1 ... $249... STF-2 ... $319 ... VTF-1 ... $379

SVS and Hsu have several selections from $400 to $899 ... in fact, Hsu's TOP subwoofer is $899 (w/o turbo) plus 3 others, and SVS has 8 powered subs in this range.

sjmarcy, you conveniently forgot to disclose that you & SVS co-founder Tom Vodhanel are old buddys from way back and you know him well "from behind the scenes" (your own phrase), and Tom V. even remarks that he owes his subwoofer beginnings to you:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?p=3054092#post3054092

As I said all along, you definitely came here with a [not so hidden] agenda...

If this is true its another unfortunate coincidence which now explains an obvious agenda and does not look good on both the poster and the manufactuer. These aggressive guerrilla marketing tactics get old fast. :rolleyes:

From all the SVS subs I have heard that characteristic midbass rolloff is pretty standard for TV's designs. So that chart for the pb12 looked fairly typical with its less than impress linearity. I've seen and measured similar decreases in response with SVS subs in that frequency range. Its the achilles heel of those subs and one of the reasons why SVS sound quality doesn't stand up in a side by side comparison with the Hsu subs. The different response profiles are audible when comparing the pbnsd12 to a more linear sub like the 3.3. The worst performer in the line-up is the pb12-/2 because of this problem.

Nevertheless, the differential is quite large which is likely attributable to room acoustics relative to the different driver and port configurations in those subs. I know Craig has checked his equipment often and it has been used in hundreds of tests with dozens of subs.

Stan I suggest you get a hold of these two subs, state your methodology, run measurements and post results here if you have a problem. One of the few things which have any merit in your comments is that this is indeed an open forum, however its time to back up your insinuations with some concrete data. I'm sure your friend can supply a sub or two.

Craig, out of curiousity, what is the first sub in that last pic with what looks like a gloss black top and bottom (kind of looks like the Mirage BPS-400)?

damn, busted!!!! This reflects very poorly on SVS, I wonder if they're aware what this clown
is doing

I was hoping that his agenda was strictly a personal/fanboy thing since all the companies on
Craig's list are terrific, it is sad to see such games being played.

I'll be watching this thread closely from here on out...

sjmarcy, tread VERY carefully.

grabbing my popcorn...


my only beef with SVS is that their product descriptions (on their site) put them on par with being the Messiah of subs! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

sjmarcy, you conveniently forgot to disclose that you & SVS co-founder Tom Vodhanel are old buddys from way back and you know him well "from behind the scenes" (your own phrase), and Tom V. even remarks that he owes his subwoofer beginnings to you:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?p=3054092#post3054092 OH MY! Isn't that interesting! :eek: Whadayaknow! :rolleyes: I think we now know exactly who those alleged "readers/lurkers/posters" are.

I think we need to realize that we are talking about subs that are NOT the most expensive here. They will ALL have a weakness or two.

I will keep stressing this to everyone. If you buy an SVS or HSU sub you ARE going to be happy. We have CLEAR proof they are both HIGH quality subs and they will def. be an improvement over a lot of subs on the market.

SbWillie......every subwoofer, car company, and POP maker (coke and pepsi) try to sell their product stating it is the best.....

It is up to no one but US to decide which car drives and looks the best to US, and which subwoofer sounds the best to US.

Of course SVS is going to say their product is the best.........just like if you ask HSU people if they have the best product, they will say yes. That is just the nature of the marketing and selling game.

:)

SbWillie......every subwoofer, car company, and POP maker (coke and pepsi) try to sell their product stating it is the best.....

It is up to no one but US to decide which car drives and looks the best to US, and which subwoofer sounds the best to US.

:)


..........and in a nutshell, this is why Craigsub's testing is very important to us...........

Craigsub, keep up the good work. We (except for the occassional manufacturer's troll whose product won't rank well. lol) appreciate all that you're doing for us.

All,
If I may chime in. I am relative new but not green

Let's not forget that Craig is not being paid for this. My main concern for him is that he has some balance in =his life between work and his home life. I, for one, an grateful for his hard work and unbiased results. I have a HSU 2.3 in my 1320^3' HT/office and I can barely stand the volume with the knob at or right past the first mark on the dial. (very clean and accurate) I love listening to the scene in Superman returns when the crystal makes the sound after it hit the water. :D

I looked at the subs from both companies and it appeared to me that the HSU presented a better overall value when looking at the specs. I am not one to pay an extra 200 bucks for a extra thump or boom here and there. But that's just my view of the world.

We should all be grateful that someone is taking the time to do what none of have done, are willing to do or are able to do. Once again, he did it for free so if you don't like it don't use it. Most of you, from what I've seen, who disagree with him are not performing similar tests or disagreeing for the sake of helping others. You are just doing it to cause discord and confusion. Grow up!..

Marcy,
I do not know you and am not criticizing you but if what I am reading is true, you may not be but you should be ashamed of yourself. All of us do not have resources to have "special room and special equipment" so the we have to make the best decisions that we can. That is why we come to places like this so we can "help" each other.

Also, if it is true, I bet you can even really enjoy all your "stuff" because you have probably run out of people to show it off to and you probably get bored listening by yourself. It's hard to be the big dog when nobody cares about what you are barking about. Sometimes, we get so caught up in specs, specifics and details that we lose focus on relationships which is what the forums are all about.

Since you are here, grab a seat and enjoy like everyone else. IMHO, you are still welcome. Just behave next time and learn to leave things alone especially if you are not contributing. Just remember that you are not better or smarter than anyone just because you appear to have more resources.


Craig,

Thanks you again and please continue to do what you do because regular ol' Joes are being helped to make good decisions to the point that they can actually explain this "must have :cool: to their wives(if applicable).


Sorry about the sermon and thanks to each of you for helpng me pick a great sub.

I'll be watching this thread closely from here on out...

sjmarcy, tread VERY carefully.

THANK YOU! :)

If this is true its another unfortunate coincidence which now explains an obvious agenda and does not look good on both the poster and the manufactuer. These aggressive guerrilla marketing tactics get old fast. :rolleyes:



I don't think you can assign any of this the SVS without more information. sjmarcy is whoever he is and has expressed his own opinions so far.

Without more facts, I don't think we should assume SVS has anything to do with this.

Splotto

All,
If I may chime in. I am relative new but not green

Let's not forget that Craig is not being paid for this. My main concern for him is that he has some balance in =his life between work and his home life. I, for one, an grateful for his hard work and unbiased results. I have a HSU 2.3 in my 1320^3' HT/office and I can barely stand the volume with the knob at or right past the first mark on the dial. (very clean and accurate) I love listening to the scene in Superman returns when the crystal makes the sound after it hit the water. :D

I looked at the subs from both companies and it appeared to me that the HSU presented a better overall value when looking at the specs. I am not one to pay an extra 200 bucks for a extra thump or boom here and there. But that's just my view of the world.

We should all be grateful that someone is taking the time to do what none of have done, are willing to do or are able to do. Once again, he did it for free so if you don't like it don't use it. Most of you, from what I've seen, who disagree with him are not performing similar tests or disagreeing for the sake of helping others. You are just doing it to cause discord and confusion. Grow up!..

....

Craig,

Thanks you again and please continue to do what you do because regular ol' Joes are being helped to make good decisions to the point that they can actually explain this "must have :cool: to their wives(if applicable).


Sorry about the sermon and thanks to each of you for helpng me pick a great sub.

Well said. I echo your thanks to Craig for all his hard work. It certainly is very helpful to novices like me.

Thanks,
Splotto

sjmarcy, you conveniently forgot to disclose that you & SVS co-founder Tom Vodhanel are old buddys from way back and you know him well "from behind the scenes" (your own phrase), and Tom V. even remarks that he owes his subwoofer beginnings to you:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?p=3054092#post3054092

As I said all along, you definitely came here with a [not so hidden] agenda...
Great stuff! I am sure that many here had the 'ole "spidey senses tingling" about Mr. Marcewicz.

"Without more facts, I don't think we should assume SVS has anything to do with this."

don't assume they don't either

I don't think you can assign any of this the SVS without more information. sjmarcy is whoever he is and has expressed his own opinions so far.

Without more facts, I don't think we should assume SVS has anything to do with this.

Splotto

I called it an unfortunate coincidence for that reason. There are many intelligent posters who have come to their own conclusions.

Great history lesson Stan. Any worthwhile contribution to make here?

I will keep stressing this to everyone. If you buy an SVS or HSU sub you ARE going to be happy. We have CLEAR proof they are both HIGH quality subs and they will def. be an improvement over a lot of subs on the market.

SbWillie......every subwoofer, car company, and POP maker (coke and pepsi) try to sell their product stating it is the best.....

Of course SVS is going to say their product is the best.........just like if you ask HSU people if they have the best product, they will say yes. That is just the nature of the marketing and selling game.

:)

The problem is that everyone wants to feel like they have the undisputed "best", thus the arguments and flame wars.

That's why it's important to take everything on any forum with a grain of salt.

Craigsub, getting back on track......

Have you come up with anything as far as separate rankings/scores for HT vs. music? I'm probably in the minority here in that I listen to more music than most (maybe 30-35% music?), and I don't need the last few extra db/spl. I've always favored fast, articulate bass, going with sealed, servo-controlled subs.

Based on this, I'm leaning towards the JL Fathom 113, but having real trouble justifying the money. I'm hoping that the Submersive compares favorably with music, and might be a bit cheaper. Remember to comment on music listening if you get the chance. PLEASE? :)

John

If this is true its another unfortunate coincidence which now explains an obvious agenda and does not look good on both the poster and the manufactuer. These aggressive guerrilla marketing tactics get old fast. :rolleyes:

From all the SVS subs I have heard that characteristic midbass rolloff is pretty standard for TV's designs. So that chart for the pb12 looked fairly typical with its less than impress linearity. I've seen and measured similar decreases in response with SVS subs in that frequency range. Its the achilles heel of those subs and one of the reasons why SVS sound quality doesn't stand up in a side by side comparison with the Hsu subs. The different response profiles are audible when comparing the pbnsd12 to a more linear sub like the 3.3. The worst performer in the line-up is the pb12-/2 because of this problem.

Nevertheless, the differential is quite large which is likely attributable to room acoustics relative to the different driver and port configurations in those subs. I know Craig has checked his equipment often and it has been used in hundreds of tests with dozens of subs.

Stan I suggest you get a hold of these two subs, state your methodology, run measurements and post results here if you have a problem. One of the few things which have any merit in your comments is that this is indeed an open forum, however its time to back up your insinuations with some concrete data. I'm sure your friend can supply a sub or two.
I guess Ive been around the internet a/v forums far too long. I thought everyone was aware of the guerrilla marketing tactics that have been successfully used by certain internet direct groups over many years.

Because anonymity (in hiding behind a keyboard) eventually leads many agenda driven posters into a false sense of security "ultimately" when the full disclosure of a persons motives are revealed..... "it shouldn't surprise anyone".

As far as SQ.
Over many years I have found that subwoofers might measure and have specs/price that are quite close..... yet they undoubtedly sound very different when directly comparing them.

In my experience as far as what brand or model is best (within a price range) you can only be 100% guaranteed of getting the best by directly comparing them within your system.

Ddavidson

The problem is that everyone wants to feel like they have the undisputed "best", thus the arguments and flame wars.

That's why it's important to take everything on any forum with a grain of salt.

Totally agreed ... I don't think my findings are the final word on a subwoofer's performance ... as long as the information is helpful to some, that is all a guy can ask for.

As for SVS being involved with getting someone to do what has happened here, I don't think that is what happened. Ron and Tom are genuinely good guys who are proud of their product line, and deservedly so. I just don't think they are the type to pursue a path as suggested here - so please, let's stop that speculation.

Let's get back to having some fun with all this, and please, if someone has suggestions, drop me a PM. :)

I posted this over at HSU's website. I figured that it can be answered here too.

I have always heard how musical,accurate and articulate HSU subs are. And even though I would say that I am 70% home theater and 30% music, the first test I always use on a sub is with music. The way I look at it is if a sub performs good with music, it should do just as good with movies. So with that said, I want a very detailed and accurate sub not a boom box or one note wonder.
I have heard good things about the HSU's with turbo, my question is does the HSU with turbo sound as detailed and accurate as it does without? Will the sound be boomy or muddy on music with turbo? Will I have to detach the turbo when wanting to play music? Or can I leave the turbo on and set the sub to max output? Do I plug one of the ports on the turbo to tighten things up when wanting to play music? I really don't want to attach and remove all the time. I want to set it up and leave it alone, so the turbo stays on it if I get it.
Is the turbo going to give me deeper extension at the expense of clean and articulate bass?
Thanks for all of your help.

Craigsub, getting back on track......

Have you come up with anything as far as separate rankings/scores for HT vs. music? I'm probably in the minority here in that I listen to more music than most (maybe 30-35% music?), and I don't need the last few extra db/spl. I've always favored fast, articulate bass, going with sealed, servo-controlled subs.

Based on this, I'm leaning towards the JL Fathom 113, but having real trouble justifying the money. I'm hoping that the Submersive compares favorably with music, and might be a bit cheaper. Remember to comment on music listening if you get the chance. PLEASE? :)

John

John ... You might also look at the ACI Maestro XL. It is not quite as potent as either the Fathom 113, or the Velodyne, but it is close to them both. Musically, it is a GREAT performer, and you need to see one in person to appreciate its looks.

The SUBmersive also looks like an excellent choice - likely outperforming the Maestro XL in sheer numbers ... and knowing Mark Seaton, it will also sound excellent.

Of course, the Fathom 113 is a an absolute BEAST, in performance terms and in music performance.

don't assume they don't either

Personally I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

If for no other reason than to keep my own sanity. :)

how would my SVS cylinder SVS PC-ultra compare to the VTF-3 HO Subwoofer with Turbocharger?

I posted this over at HSU's website. I figured that it can be answered here too.

I have always heard how musical,accurate and articulate HSU subs are. And even though I would say that I am 70% home theater and 30% music, the first test I always use on a sub is with music. The way I look at it is if a sub performs good with music, it should do just as good with movies. So with that said, I want a very detailed and accurate sub not a boom box or one note wonder.
I have heard good things about the HSU's with turbo, my question is does the HSU with turbo sound as detailed and accurate as it does without? Will the sound be boomy or muddy on music with turbo? Will I have to detach the turbo when wanting to play music? Or can I leave the turbo on and set the sub to max output? Do I plug one of the ports on the turbo to tighten things up when wanting to play music? I really don't want to attach and remove all the time. I want to set it up and leave it alone, so the turbo stays on it if I get it.
Is the turbo going to give me deeper extension at the expense of clean and articulate bass?
Thanks for all of your help.

In our room, the Turbo equipped VTF-3.3/HO is actually even tighter in the deep bass than the non-turbo version. The turbo merely will extend bass deeper with less compression than will the non-turbo equipped sub.

Try it out ... worst case, you send the Turbo back.

Craigsub, getting back on track......

Have you come up with anything as far as separate rankings/scores for HT vs. music? I'm probably in the minority here in that I listen to more music than most (maybe 30-35% music?), and I don't need the last few extra db/spl. I've always favored fast, articulate bass, going with sealed, servo-controlled subs.

Based on this, I'm leaning towards the JL Fathom 113, but having real trouble justifying the money. I'm hoping that the Submersive compares favorably with music, and might be a bit cheaper. Remember to comment on music listening if you get the chance. PLEASE? :)

John

I'm 50/50 between music/HT so how a sub performs with music is critical especially with all the music scores in movie soundtracks. Having heard dual JL113s two weeks ago and testing them with various types of music and HT effects, I know you cannot go wrong with those subs. The Fathoms have everything you describe as important and the SPLs for movie effects. Its outstanding in every way and arguably the best sub out there today. Its a tossup sound quality wise between it and the Velo DD-18 but with price considerations its hard not to favour the JLs. I'm looking forward to hearing the Submersive.

how would my SVS cylinder SVS PC-ultra compare to the VTF-3 HO Subwoofer with Turbocharger?

They are pretty close ... within 4 points in the overall standings. If you already own the Ultra, then keep it. Wait until the new Ultra comes out later this year, and see which works the best for you.

If you are looking to buy one or the other today, I would give the edge to the VTF-3 HO.

In our room, the Turbo equipped VTF-3.3/HO is actually even tighter in the deep bass than the non-turbo version. The turbo merely will extend bass deeper with less compression than will the non-turbo equipped sub.

Try it out ... worst case, you send the Turbo back.

Craig,

So are you saying that you found the VTF3 MKIII tighter in the deep bass with the turbo set to maximum output or maximum extension? Do you plug the ports on the turbo for music?

Craig,

So are you saying that you found the VTF3 MKIII tighter in the deep bass with the turbo set to maximum output or maximum extension? Do you plug the ports on the turbo for music?

When you run the Turbo, you set the subwoofer to max extension, and leave all ports open. The added length of the turbo allows for both ports to be open, while the subwoofer driver "sees" the same "load" with both ports open on the Turbo equipped sub as it does the non-turbo'ed sub with one port blocked.

When you set the back of the sub to "max-extension, one port", it sets the high-pass filter and amp EQ to that "load".

The difference is that you get twice the air moved through the turbo equipped subwoofer as the non-turbo equipped.

Hopefully, this clears things up a bit.

When you run the Turbo, you set the subwoofer to max extension, and leave all ports open. The added length of the turbo allows for both ports to be open, while the subwoofer driver "sees" the same "load" with both ports open on the Turbo equipped sub as it does the non-turbo'ed sub with one port blocked.

When you set the back of the sub to "max-extension, one port", it sets the high-pass filter and amp EQ to that "load".

The difference is that you get twice the air moved through the turbo equipped subwoofer as the non-turbo equipped.

Hopefully, this clears things up a bit.

Thanks Craig,

It does. So basically, the best way to use the MKIII with turbo is it set to max extension? Do you ever set it to max output with turbo? Is there any point in doing that? Or just run it max extension with turbo when playing both music and movies?

"Without more facts, I don't think we should assume SVS has anything to do with this."

don't assume they don't either


Why would they.........This is not about SVS

its about an IDIOT posting on here and taking us off topic

Craig is doing great things for all of us and all of the Subwoofer fans of all brands!

I have to laugh a little regarding the accusations of "plants' here. First if you look , I'd say less than 20% of forum members even give their names let alone all of the potential political,business relationships or friendships they have (let alone folks with multiple accounts). Even if these accusations are true (which I doubt) it is a joke when people are pointing the finger at a behavior which is all but ubiquitos on these forums.

Art

Sorry Art, I must disagree. Just because behavior is "all but ubiquitous" doesn't render it above criticism.

I don't know about agendas, I am looking at various (also old) correspondence with Dr. Hsu, TC Sounds, Tom Danley, Floyd Toole, Riggs, Risch, Nousaine, Deon Bearden and many others. Did you teach them "everything [they] know" as you did another? Because you "corresponded" with others doesn't necessarily mean your relationship with them is the same as with one you taught "everything I know."

Oh, and by the way, aren't you the one who said:

...are there any affiliations, business interests, relationships, etc I should know about? Things that could affect matters. That is important to know too. And:

it is very important that alliances, allegiances, affiliations, motivations and so forth are disclosed if credibility as a subwoofer reviewer is considered desireable [sic]. Tell me Stan, doesn't that apply to all of us, including you? Everybody's credibility is subject to scrutiny and, as you say, such disclosure is important so that it can be considered when judging another's credibility. Using your words yet again, "What is wrong with disclosure? IF credibility and the pursuit of truth is considered important it is usually welcomed." With your alleged credentials, I would think you eager to lay them before us to demonstrate credibility. Yet you had to be caught in flagranti dilcito before you disclosed any "alliance," "allegiance," "affiliation," "motivation," business interest," or "relationship." HMMM? :confused: Makes one wonder why you would want to hide your relationships.

Just to be clear, I don't mind seeing questions posed as to the testing methodology. It is the manner and tone of those questions that can turn a well-meaning inquiry into looking like an agenda-laden attack...



Just to ask, the charts posted on the last few pages... I apologize if the measurement methodology has already been posted. But is this from a single split-second moment in the film? Or is it like a "peak hold" at all the frequencies, with peaks over a short span in WotW kept for each frequency? Ie., the max SPL held for 15Hz, 16Hz, 17Hz and so on over a 15-second part of the DVD? And exactly what part of the movie is being measured? I think clarifying this would help people understand how different subwoofers could perform very similarly at certain frequencies, with big discrepancies in SPL at other frequencies.

Craig,

Thanks for all of the work in testing these subs. Call me when you have your garage sale ! :D haha
I have a question about the VTF2 testing. Were you running it in max output or max extension mode? If you have listened to it in both modes, what are you subjective impressions of the sound in each?

Thanks

Just to be clear, I don't mind seeing questions posed as to the testing methodology. It is the manner and tone of those questions that can turn a well-meaning inquiry into looking like an agenda-laden attack...



Just to ask, the charts posted on the last few pages... I apologize if the measurement methodology has already been posted. But is this from a single split-second moment in the film? Or is it like a "peak hold" at all the frequencies, with peaks over a short span in WotW kept for each frequency? Ie., the max SPL held for 15Hz, 16Hz, 17Hz and so on over a 15-second part of the DVD? And exactly what part of the movie is being measured? I think clarifying this would help people understand how different subwoofers could perform very similarly at certain frequencies, with big discrepancies in SPL at other frequencies.

The scene in question is the battle scene at the beginning of Master and Commander. It starts when Russell Crowe yells "Down, EVERYBODY DOWN when the French ship fires at them, and ends when the English escape into the fog.

I will post the actual time stamps later.

The TrueRTA is left in a peak hold position, in order to capture what is occuring in the subs.

If you want to verify the repeatability of this test, look no further than here :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/vtf33MCtrb.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/vtf33mcnotrb.jpg

As the turbo allows deeper bass, with less output in the 22-25 Hz range, while the driver alone handles most of the 30 Hz bass and up, we would expect the response curve from 30-50 Hz to be pretty close.

Sorry Art, I must disagree. Just because bad behavior is "all but ubiquitous" doesn't render it above criticism.



Who said it's above criticism ? It's just that it looks like some here are acting like they are suddenly appaled that the potential for hidden agendas ,political underpinnings or even hidden sales pitches are new here. People here aren't asked to disqualify themselves very often from a review or rendering an opinion for the simple reason such requests would be a hopeless exercise,especially since the overwhelming majority of membes are anonymous. I'd say conflict of interest is the rule on AVS forums not the exception.

Art

Great. So that graph's of a single particular cannon blast during that scene? Or max SPL at each frequency over the course of the scene?

Great. So that graph's of a single particular cannon blast during that scene? Or max SPL at each frequency over the course of the scene?

It is Max SPL over the entire scene.

It is Max SPL over the entire scene.

Okay. That's what I thought. Thanks!

Guys, get back on topic. If you want to discuss hidden agendas please do so via PM.

I'm deleting anything else that is OT from here on...

Guys, get back on topic. If you want to discuss hidden agendas please do so via PM.

I'm deleting anything else that is OT from here on...

Kudos to you. Lets get back to what really matters. The comparisons between subs. :)

They are pretty close ... within 4 points in the overall standings. If you already own the Ultra, then keep it. Wait until the new Ultra comes out later this year, and see which works the best for you.

If you are looking to buy one or the other today, I would give the edge to the VTF-3 HO.

Craig, thanks for the response... Do you have any knowledge of the Triad in-room Gold PowerSub? Any chance you might get a sample and test it? It has a 15-inch driver but the 250 watt amp might be a bit light compared to the other subs in this test.

If you have some knowledge of it, how do you think it might stack up on your list? I'm thinking about going with an All Triad speaker system, but wondering if I should keep my SVS PC-ultra cylinder or go with the Triad InRoom Gold PowerSub.

I'll be watching this thread closely from here on out...

sjmarcy, tread VERY carefully.

Moderator Kysersose, thank you for keeping an eye on things. You can see from this entire thread's history (up until the introduction of sjmarcy) that everyone has been incredibly well-behaved and civil to each other, regardless of which subwoofer brand they own, and there has been much constructive exchange of information that can only help many different sub companies (SVS, HSU, and others have all received very positive comments) and help many readers to make purchase decisions tailored to their needs. This thread, and especially the work of Craigsub, is an example of what makes AVS a great forum!

Craig, you have done so much work already I am hesitant to ask for this, but if you find the time to run the same M & C scene with the VTF3.3 in max extension mode with one port plugged (no turbo) it would be really helpful for many who are contemplating whether or not they should purchase the Turbo with their 3.3.

Thanks again for helping make this a great informative discussion! :) :) :)

The scene in question is the battle scene at the beginning of Master and Commander. It starts when Russell Crowe yells "Down, EVERYBODY DOWN when the French ship fires at them, and ends when the English escape into the fog.

I will post the actual time stamps later.

The TrueRTA is left in a peak hold position, in order to capture what is occuring in the subs.

If you want to verify the repeatability of this test, look no further than here :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/vtf33MCtrb.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/vtf33mcnotrb.jpg

As the turbo allows deeper bass, with less output in the 22-25 Hz range, while the driver alone handles most of the 30 Hz bass and up, we would expect the response curve from 30-50 Hz to be pretty close.

Dr. Hsu has stated there is 4db more headroom in max output mode compared to max extension, and your tests on the M & C scene have proved that quite accurately.

Craig, you have done so much work already I am hesitant to ask for this, but if you find the time to run the same M & C scene with the VTF3.3 in max extension mode with one port plugged (no turbo) it would be really helpful for many who are contemplating whether or not they should purchase the Turbo with their 3.3.

Thanks again for helping make this a great informative discussion! :) :) :)

I had plans on doing that last night ... then my wife explained that the 4th grader was going to bed, and that reasonable quiet must be kept.

Women just plain have skewed priorities ... :D

It will be either Thursday night or Sunday before testing resumes.

I had plans on doing that last night ... then my wife explained that the 4th grader was going to bed, and that reasonable quiet must be kept.

Women just plain have skewed priorities ... :D

It will be either Thursday night or Sunday before testing resumes.

Women and audio, there's just no hope of reconciling the two :D

Awesome Craig, that will be very intriguing to see how the 3.3 does in one-port extenson mode.

Hey Craigsub!

I used to live in Erie back in the late 1990's. I worked for Erie Insurance on State Street until I moved south to NC. I would have loved to stop by when I lived there! Anyway, I have an HO w/Turbo on order (in maple) but I keep mentally flip flopping whether a Mk III would be just as good. I guess it's a Win-Win situation either way.

There used to be a place named Dean Smith's House of Records right down the street on 26th Street where I lived. I imagine that place is long gone. Custom Audio on 26th Street is where I fell in love with Klipsch Fortes. After all these years I now own a pair. Keep up the great work on the sub comparisons!

If the MKIII is any improvement over the MKII, then it truly is an excellent product. The MKII was one of the very few ported subwoofers I have ever ranked as being high in SQ, very balanced over all, great size/performance ratio and in rosewood/piano black, a good looking sub.

Great to see you're still kickin', Craig. Not postin' much, but followin' along, as usual. Hope all are well up there in snow country :)

Bosso

Bosso .. Nice of you to stop by ... always a pleasure.

And ... for an update ... because my day finished earlier than I thought it would ... here is a graph of the PB12-NSD before hitting compression. Note the better performance in the 35-50 Hz range. It was the limiter ... if I tried 3 dB higher, the graph collapsed as before.

Granted, it lost a couple dB @ 20 Hz .... but the overall performance is darn good.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SVSPB12MCpartII.jpg

And ... the VTF-3.3 with one port plugged and no Turbo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/vtf331portMC.jpg

damn..........the 3.3 seems to pull out a slight edge with 1 port plugged and no turbo over the PB-12NSD....

Props to HSU for building a really impressive sub!!!!



CRAIG........could you do an overlay of those graphs to compare them really really easy?????????? Thanks :D

Does the "Input Level" in the upper left hand corner mean anything? Were these level matched? Or just graphs showing the max SPL before limiters, etc. kicked in? I'm assuming the latter, but I just want to be clear.

Does the "Input Level" in the upper left hand corner mean anything? Were these level matched? Or just graphs showing the max SPL before limiters, etc. kicked in? I'm assuming the latter, but I just want to be clear.

If I'm correct, the graphs are a running depiction of the max spl at every freq displayed. The SPL in the upper left corner is the current overall spl when the graph was paused or the image taken. Something like that.

In other words, it's meaningless.

damn..........the 3.3 seems to pull out a slight edge with 1 port plugged and no turbo over the PB-12NSD....

Props to HSU for building a really impressive sub!!!!



CRAIG........could you do an overlay of those graphs to compare them really really easy?????????? Thanks :D

You know .. I need to remember to start doing that. Once the graphs are done, no. I need to leave the TrueRTA window open, and save each graph.

You know .. I need to remember to start doing that. Once the graphs are done, no. I need to leave the TrueRTA window open, and save each graph.


Cool.....I really like looking when they are together and just different colors. that really gives a much easier picture to look at for comparision purposes.

I mean, we all can compare it the way you are doing, but together is just easier :)

Figured it couldn't hurt to ask, and I'd only ask if it was something really easy for you to do, otherwise the work you are doing is enough and we all cannot thank you enough!! :D

Craig, I am sorry if I missed it, but did you have a chance to run the HO w/ and w/out turbo (1 port plugged) with the same scene?

VERY VERY well written and very informative. I had a feeling someone would comment on the cyclinder design and how it is against the boxed design....

For me I'd just stack the PB-12NSD's so placement and looks are no issue at all.

Both Craig and Ed Mullen have said that 2 PB-12NSD's would be equal to, if not better than, 1 PB-12/+2. Ed stated "most people would have a very hard time telling the difference between 2 stacked PB-12's and 1 PB-12/+2). PLUS the front firing design is a newer supposedly better design now. AND as far as money is concerned the Dual PB-12's is a Better option for me.

The turbo's would be harder to use colocated because of the side firing woofer. If I wanted the RIGHT next to each other 1 sub would be firing right against the other....probably not a good idea. (Cant stack the Turbo's because of the TURBO Unit).

So NOWWWWWWW that leaves me to contemplate this

Dual stacked PB-12NSDs (I already own 1 PB-12)
vs
Dual Stacked VTF-3.3s w/o turbo
vs
1 single VTF-3.3 with turbo
vs
1 single VTF-HO with turbo

So which is going to give me what I'm so desiring.....the best LOW RESPONSE along with the best mid/high response..

(Disclaimer--I do not care about MUSIC at all........99% HT use for the subs)

Going the HSU route will force me to sell my PB-12, possible lose out on some money, and actually have to spend at least an extra $200 in shipipng for the HSU product. SVS shipping is free because I live so close I can just pick up the subs)


Thoughts, comments, opinions.....(craig knows I'd love to hear from him since he is "the man")

ps.............I love this forum and all of the members here are the best around!!!! :)

Bgilly, was just rereading some of these posts, and I think if I were you I would sell your sub and just go with a single HO with Turbo. The new Ultra 13.5" will be better, but the price shipped may be a little too much (unless you're loaded of course ;) ) I'm not a big fan of the Turbo look, but for the money and output added, how can you beat it? The new Ultra will set you back much, much more money, and if you want the best, you'll probably be disappointed when the Ultra/2 debuts at the end of the year. (so many decisions - you could always just built a 12 driver 15" IB) ;)

Craig, I am sorry if I missed it, but did you have a chance to run the HO w/ and w/out turbo (1 port plugged) with the same scene?

Not yet .... it takes longer than one might think to chart this scene .. the bass spectaculars are over about a 5 minute period, and you need about 8-10 runs, with cool down time, to chart a single subwoofer. This Sunday I am hoping to do the PB12-Plus/2, the Ultra, and the HO ... do the math, and there are 9 more tests here.

Not yet .... it takes longer than one might think to chart this scene .. the bass spectaculars are over about a 5 minute period, and you need about 8-10 runs, with cool down time, to chart a single subwoofer. This Sunday I am hoping to do the PB12-Plus/2, the Ultra, and the HO ... do the math, and there are 9 more tests here.

Thank you Craig, not trying to put any additional pressure or work on you just wanted to make sure that if you had done the tests and listed them that I hadn't missed them. :D

As for SVS being involved with getting someone to do what has happened here, I don't think that is what happened. Ron and Tom are genuinely good guys who are proud of their product line, and deservedly so. I just don't think they are the type to pursue a path as suggested here - so please, let's stop that speculation.

Thanks Craig. Sorry I'm late to the party; yesterday a few people asked me to check on this thread and provide comment on same.

Stan's comments and opinions are his own. No one at SVS knows Stan, except TV. SVS didn't ask Stan to post here to throw a wrench in Craig's thread.

I'm not throwing him under the bus either; by many accounts he's a legend in the DIY subwoofer community and has past associations with Deon B., Paul Scarpelli, Tom Nousaine, John Janowitz, etc. and was also one of the first to pioneer subwoofer measurements, experimenting with S/T Spectra, using the RS meter with correction factors, etc. It's a shame he got off to a bad start with you guys, because he probably has a lot to offer if we could all figure out how to peacefully co-exist.

Regardless, if I took real exception to anything Craig was doing, I'd post here myself. Aside from peak SPL monitoring on bassy scenes (something anyone at home can try) and FR at the listening position, I've long since eschewed any sort of indoor testing for various reasons.

If anyone really wants to compare the overall output capabilities of two subwoofers, I would suggest testing outdoors groundplane at 2 meters for any/all of the following tests:

1) Reverse sine sweeps at progressively higher levels to the onset of output compression.

2) Distortion-limited SPL at discrete frequencies using the CEA 2010 weighted harmonic distortion cap limits.

3) Max output (without respect to distortion) using a combination of sine waves (a favorite of JJ's over at Secrets) - maybe 25, 32, 40, 50, 63.

4) Max output (without respect to distortion) using broad-band pink noise (a favorite of Seaton's and Wiggins').

5) Peak SPL (without respect to distortion) at discrete frequencies using a 5-cycle shaped tone burst (aka "boinkers"), per Yates in the WDD shoot-out.

True max output limits not withstanding, the indoor FR at the listening position can (obviously) account for relative differences in output over any given portion of the pass band and that is more than likely what people are responding to when comparing two given subwoofers and forming subjective opinions of same.

I would encourage Craig to use the TrueRTA QuickSweep function to plot the level-matched FR of each subwoofer from 10-100 Hz on the same graph at the listening position, with each sub in the same test location. There may indeed be differences of 3-5-8 dB (or w/e) at various points over the pass band, and these will definitely affect the acoustic signature of the competing subwoofers.

At that point the subs can be ranked on the sound quality with their "native" FR. With the availability of PEQs like the BFD, SMS-1, DEQ2496, DSP-30, etc. owners/reviewers then have the option (or not) of re-shaping the FR for a flatter in-room response and then re-evaluating the subs again.

Ed ... Good to see you here ... :)

I wish we had the weather to be doing some of the outdoor tests, for sure. To get everyone up to date on what each subwoofer is doing with the Master Commander Scene BEFORE compression sets in ... let's review them.

Properly done, each sub should have similar looking curves, with the stronger subs having higher SPL levels, especially @ lower frequencies.

The first graph on the PB12-NSD was with the SVS being severely over driven. I played with overdriving the PB12 some more last night - and like its little brother, you just CANNOT make it make a bad noise ... it just limits itself ... which was shown in the lower SPL in the 30-50 Hz range.

Here are the final, "non-overloaded" scenes.

PB12-NSD

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SVSPB12MCpartII.jpg

VTF-3.3 With One Port, No Turbo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/vtf331portMC.jpg

VTF-3.3 Both Ports open, No Turbo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/vtf33mcnotrb.jpg

VTF-3.3 Both ports Open, One Port setting on the Amp, with Turbo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/vtf33MCtrb.jpg

VTF-2.3 With Turbo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/vtf23mctrb.jpg

VTF-2.3 One port open, no Turbo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/MCVTF2.jpg

It is easy to see that the VTF-2.3 was getting into some compression when run without the Turbo ... back off the volume a bit, and you will see similar SPL level in the 30-50 Hz region as the turbo'ed VTF-2.3.

do you have a final score on the 2.3 yet???

The VTF-2.3 scores an 86. It basically sounds exactly as the little brother to the VTF-3.3 should. It is deep and tactile ... though the PB12-NSD gives a better "room shake". The VTF-2.3 bests the PB12-NSD in the mid bass ... but both are excellent subs, with small differences which may sway a potential owner to pick one over the other.

For overall performance, a Turbo Equipped VTF 2.3 would get an 88, but I have a hard time recommending the turbo option. One small nudge, and the turbo seal is lost ... I would constantly be concerned that the turbo seal would open, and damage would occur during a high level bass scene.

The basic VTF-2.3, however, is an astonishing bargain @ $469/$499.

Seems like every time anyone posts a few graphs the little chickens run around screaming that the sky is falling.

They are peak hold graphs of an entire movie scene.

One can question if the subs are level matched and FR matched, but that's the case no matter what the venue or methodology may be.

And, with due respect to Edward, it's not bloody likely that most enthusiasts are so enthusiastic that they'll drag all of the necessary gear out into a big field for accuracy's sake.

The big controversy that seems to have arisen here could have a root cause as simple as the scene snapshot being cut off shorter by a second or two, missing one effect that is centered at the frequency in question.

Testing with any methodology can attract it's detractors. Heck, TV has told Ilkka that Ilk's gear and methodology for measuring maximum output before compression is off by 8dB!

I say kick the offending graph to the curb and everyone relax and enjoy the ride :cool: , which is a great ride, IMHO.

Testing indoors has it's perils, but it isn't all that difficult to set up to, and hear the differences a variety of subs offer, especially when you've done as many as Craig has. TN is a guy who's made a career out of it, and I never see anyone screaming that he had the mic in a slightly different position or someone bumped his favorite chair before the test of 'X' subwoofer.

Much ado about nothing.

SJMarcy, I definitely respect where you're coming from, history-wise. That in and of itself buys you a lot of respect up front in my book. That aside, it's a different game than you're used to. There's no public health epidemic starting here. Just enjoy the show or state your dissatisfaction and move on down the road.

No one likes a bloodhound with a cause in their thread, and it's a cinch you aren't here because you're undecided as to which of the two subwoofers to buy.

As was probably suggested already, buy the two subs. Set up what you believe to be the proper test with what you believe to be the proper gear and prove your point in a thread that you start, as a public service, which seems to be your angle of attack here.

Bosso

Just a quick thanks to you Craig for all your doing. A big job indeed but I think there are very many here who do appreciate what you are doing! I know I sure do and enjoy the thread very much.
Mike L

Aside from peak SPL monitoring on bassy scenes (something anyone at home can try) and FR at the listening position, I've long since eschewed any sort of indoor testing for various reasons.

If anyone really wants to compare the overall output capabilities of two subwoofers, I would suggest testing outdoors groundplane at 2 meters for any/all of the following tests:

1) Reverse sine sweeps at progressively higher levels to the onset of output compression.

2) Distortion-limited SPL at discrete frequencies using the CEA 2010 weighted harmonic distortion cap limits.

3) Max output (without respect to distortion) using a combination of sine waves (a favorite of JJ's over at Secrets) - maybe 25, 32, 40, 50, 63.

4) Max output (without respect to distortion) using broad-band pink noise (a favorite of Seaton's and Wiggins').

5) Peak SPL (without respect to distortion) at discrete frequencies using a 5-cycle shaped tone burst (aka "boinkers"), per Yates in the WDD shoot-out.

True max output limits not withstanding, the indoor FR at the listening position can (obviously) account for relative differences in output over any given portion of the pass band and that is more than likely what people are responding to when comparing two given subwoofers and forming subjective opinions of same.



These are of course the proper scientific way to conduct a measurement comparison and I agree its important for readers to keep in mind when agonizing over the last one or two point differences. Outdoors these graphs would indeed look different. While I know how careful Craig has been about replicating placement of the sub and mic, room acoustics will exaggerate the subs response depending on each subs anechoic behaviour.

Of the items mentioned above, #2 is my overall favourite for a one concise look at a sub because it presents output based on average distortion or compression weighted SPL. Comparing the subs using this criteria would give a "truer" relative measure of performance even in an indoor environment. Still that criteria alone does not show the whole picture but it is a better guage of performance than what is being presented graphically here.

I've always preferred the idea of weighting SPL measurement based on the advent of compression or a frequency dependent step thresholds as per the CEA guidlines. Those average SPL numbers even taken indoors would be a better guideline compared to these TrueTRA graphs. The data here is still very useful but like all data presentations its important to keep in mind how representative it is of overall performance which is the thrust of Ed's remarks.

Is there a particular page or link where you have summarized ALL of the findings and rankings so far? A graph with findings overlayed would be a big help to me, too.

Thanks for the great work and follow-ups!

The first post has a summary of the rankings. To find more info, you can search all of craigsub's posts within this thread.

Hey guys just out of curiosity what happened to sjmarcy? All his post have been removed. Sorry for the off topic.

Craig, how does the vtf 3.3 w/turbo rank. I purchased w/o, but was wondering if it was worth the added cost over not having it. Would that 91 go to 93 or 94?

Hey Craig,

There are many of us who recently (or not too recently) bought a VTF3-MK2 and now are probably kicking ourselves for not waiting for the 3.3.
I am not looking for anything scientific here but from memory, does the 3.3 spank the 3.2 in low bass and overall sound or is it just a small incremental increase in performance?

<<getting my steel tip boots ready to kick myself in case the answer is not what I am hoping for>>

BTW,
Great job on the reviews. How do you find the time? I barely have time to listen to the 'one' sub I have.

Thanks in advance!

I wouldn't beat up yourself too much, I don't check the HSU site that often but it seems
as if they kind of sprung the 2.3 and 3.3 out of nowhere

There is always going to be the latest and greatest coming out. Heck I still have an original VTF 2 with no plans in the near future to replace it.

Yea, I know I should not be so OCD over these things but that is the curse of anyone who has more than just a passing interest in anything.

I bought a turbo for the 3.2 recently and it does create a incremental improvement in the low bass over the 3.2 with one port plugged (measured by my ears and seat of pants test).

The only concern I have about the turbo is the possibility that the air seal between the sub and turbo may break without me knowing and cause damage to the woofer. It does seal very well and does not move from the bass vibration but a small bump or shift would cause an air gap. I am looking into how hard it would be to create a smooth walled adapter to mate the 3" port of the sub to the 4" opening of the turbo. If HSU created that and sold it for another $20-$30, I would buy it. Hint, hint Peter....

Either way, I love my sub because it is WWWWAAAAAYYYYYY better than the JBL I replaced.
Unfortunately the Hsu performs so well it has created a new hobby for me....rattle hunting in the house...

Daven.....Either choice would be a good one.....i picked SVS because I could save shipping too.

I don't think i'd worry about the breaking of the seal and damaging the woofer. I think someone said they wedged a book or something just for extra added connection security. Plus you could always find a way to permenently mount it with some sort of calking or silicon or the gread old DUCT TAPE (joke) but that could get messy with an expensive sub....

Craig, how does the vtf 3.3 w/turbo rank. I purchased w/o, but was wondering if it was worth the added cost over not having it. Would that 91 go to 93 or 94?

Still finishing some blind testing on the Turbo ... but unless something changes, look for a 92. The Turbo VTF 3.3 and the Non Turbo 3-HO are about a wash.

Hey Craig,

There are many of us who recently (or not too recently) bought a VTF3-MK2 and now are probably kicking ourselves for not waiting for the 3.3.
I am not looking for anything scientific here but from memory, does the 3.3 spank the 3.2 in low bass and overall sound or is it just a small incremental increase in performance?

<<getting my steel tip boots ready to kick myself in case the answer is not what I am hoping for>>

BTW,
Great job on the reviews. How do you find the time? I barely have time to listen to the 'one' sub I have.

Thanks in advance!

It is an improvement ... probably in between the 2 options of spanking and incremental. You still have a really good subwoofer. The VTF-3.2 would score higher than the 2.3 ... maybe by a point or 2.

Hi guys,

Great thread! It's a shame that I found it, though ;)

I was wondering if anyone could estimate how the SB12+ would rank among the rated subs. My very kind wife gave me the SB12+ for Xmas and now I'm starting to look the gift horse in the mouth. I think she was worried I would buy a bigger SVS sub if she didn't step in and pull the trigger herself. After integrating the SB12 into our living room I'm realizing that a bigger sub could fit in rather nicely. Now I'm questioning if the WAF is balanced appropriately with the performance/price ratio. Any thoughts on upgrading to the larger subs (NSD or 3.3/3.2) in this situation? Thanks in advance.

-Mike

Folks,
This is really getting old. I came back to this forum after almost a year to learn more and to say the least, the politics here is "DISTURBING". If only, the personal attacks stop, I think all of us will learn more. I do believe that almost everyone here who spends so much time in these forums are here for a purpose. It is your passion for your hobby or to learn more. Can we just leave our petty differences behind and move on. A humble request that I hope will be considered. People do make mistakes when they post, but that does not mean we have to attack them. The day people stop attacking others personally, that day the quality here will start improving. I guarantee you, you will see more of the likes like Seaton, Danley, Ed maybe even Dr. Hsu and and several others come here more often. Let's encourage manufacturers and owners to come here and participate. Chasing people away will only make it worse. Of course, if someone is totally off the line, then it needs to be checked.
Your fellow audiophile,
-Jai

sjmarcy and anyone following this thread,

I had read some of the back and forth banter going on before you removed your posts. That is maybe why I responded to your post as if your were rolling your eyes at my excitement over my sub. You have to admit that it is not hard to take it that way after all the attacks/counter attacks on this thread. If you took what I said as an attack, I assure you it was not. I do not even know you (or Craig) for that matter.
All I know is that this is a very good forum for consumers to get info about products that can't be heard in a show room and most people can't afford to buy both and send one back. I take Craig's tests and opinions as just that, opinions with some visual graphs to look at. The room he is testing in will react with the sub very differently than my room so I can only take his results as a reference point of how different subs will react in a similar placement location in his room with some calibration.
I saw some of your posts questioning his testing methods and I can see if a magazine or lab is comparing subs, the methods need to be stated. As far as I know, Craig is just a regular guy with a few connections and a love of testing subs on his own time so I am happy at least someone is doing that so I can read about it.
I also have an impression that you are very knowledgeable about subs and the technical background to good subwoofers. It would be nice to know what your opinions are on 'What to look (listen) for when purchasing a sub.' It would have helped me when I was researching subs. The more information, the merrier.
BTW, maybe we should all lighten up a little about this thread. It is just about subwoofers you know (faint gasping heard). There are many other things to get truly agitated over. For example, the dumb ass teenagers that robbed and murdered my wifes uncle and his co-worker over god knows what little money they had in the register. Due to their stupid actions, they caused an unneeded loss in two families. The co-worker had a 7 year old daughter that will now never see her mother again.
I wonder how crazy people would get if this was a political/religious forum. :D

sjmarcy:

How about dialing down the histrionics and hyperbole. The reviews are mostly subjective opinions. If you disagree, fine. You are free to state your opinions and when doing so bring as much supporting data as you can. Debate the issues that concern you. So far all I've seen are "Danger Danger Will Robinson" like hand waving other dramatic comments.

It seems you have the background and experience to bring some intelligent debate to this thread, personally, I would welcome it.

If you are getting emails and PM's that concern you, alert the mods and let them deal with it. If they don't I don't know what the escalation process is, maybe someone else knows, but I would follow that path. Personal attacks are wrong and should not be tolerated.

Long-time lurker here. I appreciate it when someone takes time, effort, and money out of their own pocket to try to help us "regular folk." It's easier to criticize than to help out, and I always find it ironic when those that spend great effort trying to help receive criticism as their reward. All I would ask is that this thread stays on topic. If someone has problems with the methodology or opinions, it would seem more helpful to make a new thread teaching us why another way works better. In such a manner, we can all learn. Simply hijacking another guy's thread who is trying to help, does a great disservice to us all and reduces the probability of others coming forth in the future.

Now onto the relevant stuff: I probably missed it in the mass of pages, but are you planning on testing any of the SVS cylinder-subs?

Thanks once again for all of your work!

Welcome to the forum Fred. Now as Fred said so well let's get back on topic. Craig keep the info coming.

[QUOTE=trainCatcer]Hi guys,

Great thread! It's a shame that I found it, though ;)

I was wondering if anyone could estimate how the SB12+ would rank among the rated subs. My very kind wife gave me the SB12+ for Xmas and now I'm starting to look the gift horse in the mouth. I think she was worried I would buy a bigger SVS sub if she didn't step in and pull the trigger herself. After integrating the SB12 into our living room I'm realizing that a bigger sub could fit in rather nicely. Now I'm questioning if the WAF is balanced appropriately with the performance/price ratio. Any thoughts on upgrading to the larger subs (NSD or 3.3/3.2) in this situation? Thanks in advance.
I too would like your opinion on this sub> Thanks Chas
]

Chas .... If you like the SQ of the SB12+, why not exchange it for a PB12-Plus of the same finish ? It should sound the same, while extending deeper, and at a higher SPL, than your current sub - plus SVS will (I think) pay for the shipping - and you just pay the difference.

NOTE TO ALL:

ALL REVIEWS TESTS, EITHER DONE BY A MANUFACTURE, MAGAZINE, OR A MEMBER OF THIS SITE ARE ALL SUBJECT FOR REVIEW. TESTING IS NOT ALWAYS DONE THE SAME EACH AND EVERY TIME BY EACH AND EVERY PARTY THAT CARES TO MAKE SUCH TESTS.

FROM WHAT AVS CAN SEE, AS IT ALWAYS IS, NO ONE IS EVERY HAPPY WHEN ANY TEST IS DONE AND THE PRODUCT THEY OWN, OR HELP TO ENDORSE, OR KNOWS THE MANUFACTURER PERSONALLY, OR HAS HELPED THE MANUFACTURER, ETC, ETC, DOES NOT TAKE TOP HONORS, THEN ALL HELL BRAKES OUT. ALWAYS.

TAKE A REVIEW AS JUST THAT, A REVIEW. NO SPEAKER WILL PERFORM IN THE SAME WAY IN EACH ENVIRONMENT. THAT INCLUDES SUBS. MOVE IT 2 FEET TO THE LEFT, GUESS WHAT, YOU MAY HAVE JUST MADE A PEEK OR A DIP AT A CERTAIN RANGE.

SO REMEMBER WHEN YOU COME TO US THAT YOU ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THE WAY YOU HAVE BEEN TREATED BY OTHERS. IT IS NOT WHAT YOU SAY, BUT HOW YOU SAY IT. TO JUST ATTACK AND NOT BE EXPECTED TO BE ATTACKED BACK IS JUST SILLY. WHY, "EVIL BEGETS EVIL", AS THE LINE GOES. SO ASK, DON'T ACCUSE.

I AM GUESSING THAT 99% OF PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD ARE ADULTS...SOME OF YOU REALLY NEED TO CONSIDER YOU MAY BE ONE. AS SUCH, CONSIDER NOT CRYING FOWL AND TAKING YOUR TOYS AND GOING HOME WHEN YOU MAY HAVE BEEN THE CAUSE OF THE ISSUE TO BEGIN WITH.

THIS IS NOT DIRECTED TOWARDS ANY ONE PERSON...BUT AS A REMINDER TO ALL AS TO THE ISSUES MADE HERE AND WHY THEY MAY OCCUR.

ALL IN ALL, BE HAPPY WITH WHAT YOU OWN AND GO ENJOY IT.

Mr Bott, the interest in this thread and Craig's results is astounding.

Perhaps we can all agree to relax a little, it would be a shame for this thread to die.

[QUOTE=CHAS ZOSS]

Chas .... If you like the SQ of the SB12+, why not exchange it for a PB12-Plus of the same finish ? It should sound the same, while extending deeper, and at a higher SPL, than your current sub - plus SVS will (I think) pay for the shipping - and you just pay the difference.

Craig, do you really feel they should sound the same other than SPL and extension just because it's the same driver? The enclosures are so different that I have my doubts that they would sound all that similar.

It would make for an interesting test.

[QUOTE=craigsub]

Craig, do you really feel they should sound the same other than SPL and extension just because it's the same driver? The enclosures are so different that I have my doubts that they would sound all that similar.

It would make for an interesting test.

Mojo, it's because of the enclosure that the PB12+ will have that added extension and SPL capabilities. But at moderate levels, you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two.

Even with the SB12+ being sealed and all, with proper placement, level adjustment, and phase setting, the PB12+ can be just as good with music, if not better.

David, you looked better in the previous avatar. Kidding. :)

Craig, do you really feel they should sound the same other than SPL and extension just because it's the same driver? The enclosures are so different that I have my doubts that they would sound all that similar.

It would make for an interesting test.

Mojo, it's because of the enclosure that the PB12+ will have that added extension and SPL capabilities. But at moderate levels, you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two.

Even with the SB12+ being sealed and all, with proper placement, level adjustment, and phase setting, the PB12+ can be just as good with music, if not better.

They don't sound identical in back-to-back comparos; there are differences in the respective frequency responses.

The SB12-Plus is also the first subwoofer model we offer with the room gain compensation control; it allows the user to tailor the low end roll-off of the subwoofer to complement the acoustic transfer function of the listening room, thus achieving a flatter and more accurate low-end response. This control can make an audible difference in the acoustic signature of the subwoofer, particularly for critical music listening.

If you like the way the SB12-Plus sounds, and just want more oomph, then consider dual SB12-Plus.

With that said, the PB12-Plus does have better extension (and the ability to tune to 16 Hz), and it also has much higher output capability at the deepest frequencies due to its larger enclosure and bass reflex alignment.

Regardless, the two subs can indeed be made to sound very similar, but you would need an external PEQ to shape the response of the PB12-Plus to match that of the SB12-Plus, particularly if you were using the room gain control on the SB12-Plus.

Ed, that makes perfect sense to me. I do indeed have two SB12+'s for primarily music use.

Just wondering here what the thoughts are on a VTF2.2? I have a 2500 cu ft room where my primary HT will be, but it is open to an adjacent large room downstairs. Probably 60%HT- 40% music.

I live in Canada and shipping on Subs from the US is brutal, but it looks like HSU is dropping their canadian dealer. If I can get a deal from the outgoing canadian dealer while they are clearing out stock, do you think this sub is large enough? Should I be considering STF-3 instead?

I'm comparing to an Axiom EP350 in the similar price range.

Oh, boy.........Let's Get Ready to Rummmmmmbbbblllleeeeee.......!!!!!!

Final round! :D :D

Craig,

Thanks for answering my question about the performance differences between the 2.3, 3.2 and 3.3.
Glad to know that the 3.2 will have a 1-2 point edge over the 2.3.
Since I have the turbo unit, would that qualify as a possible additional 1 point in the ranking?
I was told that the 3.2 with turbo would perform the same as a 3.3 with one port closed (no turbo).

The VTF-3.2 would score higher than the 2.3 ... maybe by a point or 2.
Having directly compared them they have the exact same components/enclosure except the 2.3 has a 100w rms (400w peak) less power ....... SQ is a carbon copy with slightly more output and dynamics across the range (for the 3.2)

Ddavidson

Craig,

Thanks for answering my question about the performance differences between the 2.3, 3.2 and 3.3.
Glad to know that the 3.2 will have a 1-2 point edge over the 2.3.
Since I have the turbo unit, would that qualify as a possible additional 1 point in the ranking?
I was told that the 3.2 with turbo would perform the same as a 3.3 with one port closed (no turbo).

One concern about assigning point values to this process is that we get too wrapped up in the total points a unit scores. The results here should be combined with testing done by other reviewers, and also, if possible, one should audition a product for him or herself.

I hope that our results are consistent with the results that other reviewers have gotten. Please, look at reviews done by The Perfect Vision, Stereophile, Sensible Sound, Secrets of HT, Audioholics ... etc ... and compare our results to theirs ... get ALL the opinions you can.

The points, as awarded to date, are *hopefully* a decent barometer for people looking to purchase a new subwoofer. Several people have participated in the blind tests here, and we have also gone to great lengths to find the right location for placing the subwoofers in our basement theater. If you look at the Master and Commander Graphs - you will see quite similar shapes, in regards to the output levels of each subwoofer, with some extending deeper, and/or having higher levels of SPL than others. The shapes should be similar, if the test was done properly.

The 3.2, with Turbo, should do very well overall ... and would likely have score around an 89-90 point level, IF you are comfortable with the turbo.

Thanks for your responses. I do enjoy the SQ of the SB12+. This is my first sub. On music it sounds fantastic! I nearly wet my pants after listening to Mickey Hart's "Temple Caves" the first time after getting the sub. Movies are a completely different experience, as well, but I can't listen too loud due to neighbors. I have a relatively large room with some nasty room modes (16x16x8 that opens to another 16x8 room). The improvements in SQ owe a lot to the ability to easily place the SB12 nearfield and shave off a few dBs near 75Hz with EQ.

That said, the SPLs start to roll off at ~30dB/oct at 24Hz and the idea of hearing/feeling bowel moving 16Hz notes with some of the other subs definitely piques my curiosity. I am really curious how the SB12+ would stack up against the big boys in real world listening tests. As I mentioned in my first post, it would take a lot to convince my wife to allow an increase in the physical volume of the audio equipment in our living room. This includes getting an additional SB12. So, this question might be more for academic purposes if anything else.

Cheers,
Mike

Just one guy's opinion, Mike, but given your space, placement and volume limitations, I'd suggest you relax and enjoy your SB12+ and forget about changing subs. Under your circumstances, the SB12+ will handle 99.5% of everything thrown at it, and I doubt it's worth risking upsetting your wife for the other 0.5%.

(I have and love a 16-46 PC+, but I live alone.)

One alternative way to enjoy infrasonics without a bigger box in your room might be a Buttkicker LFE kit. After installing one, I became convinced it added more to my enjoyment than the same amount spent on a "better" subwoofer. As I said, only one opinion. YMMV.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v24/weezR/Waterfall%20SPL/TheHaunting_cold.jpg


My copy of The Haunting in DTS just arrived! Cannot wait to put my PB-12NSD through this test!!!!

craig,

my budget is pretty bad after buying everything else. how would the BIC H-100 rank in your opinion. i know you dont have one in your house so i was just looking for an estimate. ive never heard it but $250 will work with my budget until i can save up enough for something much better like the HO or new ultra.

Tri73
Rocket X-Sub for only $199 + ($43 shipping)
A geat little performer for a very small price.

Tri73
Rocket X-Sub for only $199 + ($43 shipping)
A geat little performer for a very small price.
Or the Hsu STF-1 for $249 + $20 shipping.

Another great performer in this price range.

i currently have a 10" passive sub that im driving with a stereo receiver. this sub pops while watching the incredibles (hardest test for a sub that ive heard) i figured a 12" would be the way to go as to avoid popping in all situations. i figured an 8" of any variety couldnt hold up. please let me know if im mistaken.

FYI shouldve mentioned this before but my room is 15' x 15' with 8' ceilings, and to make things worse it opens into a kitchen/hallway.

From the testing Craig has done the 8 got a VERY respectable score compared to subs that are 10 and 12 inches (some BIGGER).

Here is the information......don't let that 8inch woofer fool you.........

The first subwoofer in the x-series of speakers and electronics; the x-sub is perfect for smaller home theater and music systems. The x-sub boasts strong output into the high 20 hz region, great attack and decay times and thanks to its folded, slotted porting, virtually no port distortion.

Several connections options allow the x-sub to seamlessly integrate with almost any system:

High level (speaker level) inputs and outputs allow you to connect the x-sub to an integrated amp, pre-amp or older receiver that has no dedicated subwoofer output.

A stereo pair of low level (RCA) inputs allows connection to the variable output of many pre-amps.

A single LFE (RCA) input is the perfect connection to modern receivers and processors. The x-subs' internal crossover is defeated with this connection allowing you to use the bass management in your receiver or processor.

At AV123 sound quality is our #1 priority but we also think that a subwoofer does not have to be ugly to sound good. The x-sub is finished in gorgeous White Shadow Maple and ultra-smooth Satin Black. We exclusively use real wood veneer or high quality paints on all our subwoofers. Even our black speakers stand out from the competition. Exceptionally smooth satin black is the norm here - not at all like the 'orange peel' finishes you see on many other subwoofers.

We use 1" (25mm) MDF to construct the cabinet; no particle board here. When is the last time you saw a small subwoofer at your local electronics store that weighs 38lbs? That quality construction translates into less cabinet resonances and stored energy (cumulative spectral decay) which means what you put into the sub is what comes out and nothing more.

As always, all our products come with a 30 day in home trial period which means you can try out anything you like in your home for 30 days. If it does not meet your expectations, ship it back to us and receive a full refund (less shipping).

3 Year Warranty (including the amplifier).

* Type: Slot ported single-driver system
* Driver: 8" mass loaded woofer
* Amplifier: 150 watts
* Frequency Response: 28Hz - 150Hz +/- 3 dB
* Inputs: Stereo high level input and output. Stereo low level and LFE input.
* Phase Control: 0 and 180
* Size (H x D x W): 17 3/4" x 12 7/8" x 9"
* Weight: 44 lbs. (shipped)
* Other Features: 0-180 phase switch, gain, and crossover adjustments (40Hz - 150Hz), auto-on / standby mode.
* 3 Year Warranty

Or the Hsu STF-1 for $249 + $20 shipping.

Another great performer in this price range.


I would have said that too, but I think he wants to stay UNDER $250......I didn't want to be that guy who keeps trying to push him to spend more money....(I'm not saying you are, just saying that the HSU is pushing $300 with tax)

i currently have a 10" passive sub that im driving with a stereo receiver. this sub pops while watching the incredibles (hardest test for a sub that ive heard) i figured a 12" would be the way to go as to avoid popping in all situations. i figured an 8" of any variety couldnt hold up. please let me know if im mistaken.



That's the problem. It's a passive sub being driven by the receiver, most likely a HTiB receiver. The receiver probably does 20-40w max, if you really look at the specs (100w with 20% or even 5% distortion isn't 100w).

Compare that to a decent powered subwoofer with a dedicated 100w~250w amp (sometimes much higher, for more $).

It's not the size of the woofer that matters. A good 8" sub like the x-sub or STF-1 will kick your passive sub's butt up and down the block.

That's the problem. It's a passive sub being driven by the receiver, most likely a HTiB receiver. The receiver probably does 20-40w max, if you really look at the specs (100w with 20% or even 5% distortion isn't 100w).

Compare that to a decent powered subwoofer with a dedicated 100w~250w amp (sometimes much higher, for more $).

It's not the size of the woofer that matters. A good 8" sub like the x-sub or STF-1 will kick your passive sub's butt up and down the block.


it is powered by an Onkyo TX-8511, a true 100w x2. Power isnt the issue. I realize its the subwoofer, even with 200 watts and a paradigm X-30 dialing it in. it still cant handle the incredibles. I know its not all about the woofer size bc my mains are bookshelfs but i still have a hard time believing an 8" sub can handle the incredibles. does anyone have a X-sub and would be willing to run it through the incredibles? i would like to know what the volume level its at when it struggles.

thanks for all the help this forum is great!

cyber,
please dont measure my knowledge in stereo based on my post count. I dont feel this was your intention but it came off that way. regardless thanks for the advice.

Thanks Mr. Bott for not closing this thread. It is a wealth of information and its too bad that some have to act like children. Lets all be on our best behavior.
Thanks Craig again for all your hard work, we all know your not a rocket scientist and just doing the best you can with what you have, but I also know it takes time and money and you are learning a lot and sending it on to those of us who could not afford to do this.
Mike L.

it is powered by an Onkyo TX-8511, a true 100w x2. Power isnt the issue. I realize its the subwoofer, even with 200 watts and a paradigm X-30 dialing it in. it still cant handle the incredibles. I know its not all about the woofer size bc my mains are bookshelfs but i still have a hard time believing an 8" sub can handle the incredibles. does anyone have a X-sub and would be willing to run it through the incredibles? i would like to know what the volume level its at when it struggles.

thanks for all the help this forum is great!


What is your subwoofer, and how exactly do you have the sub set up with a 2-channel stereo receiver? What is powering the mains? I don't quite understand your setup.

I assumed it was an HTiB, because usually they are cheap and use the receiver to power a passive sub.

And I said 20-40w max for a HTiB receiver, because most claim 100wpc, but when you look at the high distortion numbers, they are more likely capable of 20-40wpc or so.

Plus, there are different definitions of "handling." And there's a lot more to a subwoofer than merely its size. What exactly do you mean when you say your 10" passive sub "pops"? It makes popping/clicking sounds? Or it's cutting out, distorting heavily?

I used to have an 8" 50w Aiwa "bass module," self-powered. It "handled" movies fine, but there wasn't much bass, I had to place it near my listening position, and the bass was very boomy. Now, the STF-1 is a different story. It has the same exact amp as used by the BIC H-100, which is a 12" subwoofer around the same price, maybe less. They probably have about the same extension, give or take a few Hz. I would take the STF-1 over a crappy 12" sub - not that the H-100 is bad (I've owned it, it's pretty decent), but I mean like the $100~150 12" subs out there that put out one-noted boomy bass.

I think you'd be extremely surprised at what a good quality 8" sub, like the STF-1 or x-sub is capable of.


And BTW, I didn't even notice your post count. I'm not trying to come off one way or the other. I'm just trying to help. I apologize if my tone seems short or whatever. But passive subs, especially ones that need to be powered by a receiver, are usually from HTiBs. There are larger, much more $ subs that have outboard amps, but that's a different story.

I would have said that too, but I think he wants to stay UNDER $250......I didn't want to be that guy who keeps trying to push him to spend more money....(I'm not saying you are, just saying that the HSU is pushing $300 with tax)
Opps, missed that. :o I usually make a point of not exceeding someone else's budget. (Not always so scrupulous with my own! :rolleyes: ) I don't think there is any tax, though, unless he is from California. (Maybe I missed that too.)

tri73, I haven't tried The Incredibles, but I did play chapters 5 and 6 of War of the Worlds (my acid test) on my bedroom STF-1 earlier today. It's in almost the same sized room as yours, but with only two normal doorways. It was just a test for my curiosity, so all I did was play it at the same levels as I do my HT, about 95-100dB peak. Never tried to find out how far I could push it, just making a comparison for my own interest immediately after listening to the same chapters on my main system.

The STF-1 passed without any sign of strain.

FWIW, I have two subs in my HT, one of which is a vintage M&K 15" passive (high end in it's day) driven by a metered 200w+ amp. This amp starts to clip on these chapters, played at the same volume level. (It's a bigger room, but it is the secondary sub, primarily there to help smooth response. The primary sub is an SVS 16-46 PC-Plus.)

The little STF-1 also displayed a smoother response curve on my SMS-1 than the M&K when measured in the same spot, with at least equal extension! In the bedroom, it measured -3dB at 28Hz, -6 at 25 (uncorrected RS SPL meter readings).

It's performance has clearly exceeded my expectations.

I'll try The Incredibles tomorrow, if you give me the reference chapter you use, and the SPL you expect.

My old setup was Onkyo tx-8511 with crap sony speakers and a 10" cerwin vega passive sub.

my new setup is a denon 687 with 4 Paradigm Mini Monitors v5 and a CC-290 v5 with the passive sub being powered by the Onkyo 8511. The sub is hooked up through the sub out on the Denon into the X-30 then to the Onkyo finally the sub. It does pretty well for what it is but doesnt survive tough movies like the incredibles or WOTW (never heard it on my stuff). as for an spl goal im not really sure i dont have a meter. I would guess 90db to 100db, all i know for sure is it pops at a level that doesnt even begin to push my paradigms. Im not sure on the scenes for the incredibles ill get back to you on that. thank you

p.s. My system handles U571 depth charge scene fine. maybe all i need for now is to hook up an EQ for the subsonic filter. the sub cant do it anyway.

So the Denon 687's sub out put is fed to the old Onkyo 8511, which runs the passive Cerwin Vega sub? I got it now.

Again, the issue is just that the sub isn't up to the task. I don't know what the popping is (clicking at random? or just during heavy bass scenes? distortion?), but it could be due to the sub, maybe even the connections/receiver running the sub.

With that nice new receiver and Paradigms, they deserve a shiny new sub to go with them. Don't waste your money on an eq for a crappy sub. Use it to get a new sub.

Like I have said and others have said, it's not the size of the woofer. Both the STF-1 and the x-sub would surprise the heck out of you. To get more output, especially deeper, jump up to a 10" or 12" (HSU, AV123, etc.). The 12" HSU VTF-2 MK3 is an amazing deal.

it pops during heavy bass scenes. so if you were to choose which would you pick? the x-sub says it goes a bit lower... i would be crossing any choice at 80Hz

They're so close, either would be great. Do you have size/space limitations? Do looks matter?

no and no

I'll try The Incredibles tomorrow, if you give me the reference chapter you use, and the SPL you expect.



Incredibles: there are many scenes but these are the worst.

Chapter 17, 1:09 to 1:10
Chapter 9, 0:37 to end of scene
Chapter 15, 0:58 to 0:59


These scenes make my current makeshift sub pop (not distort) ridiculously. A sub must pass these tests at "loud volume" without noticeable distortion. This is why i figured i neeed a 12" woofer but we'll see what you come up with. Thank you very much for running this for me.

Well for the FIRST TIME I think I reached the limits of my PB-12NSD.

The scene that is HUGE at 22hz in THE HAUNTING where she says "its cold" I could REALLY hear port noise from the HUGE amount of air that the sub was pushing........Everyone knows the CHUUUFFFFFFFING sound....


can ANYONE else with a PB-12 and The Haunting DTS chime in.....or really anyone else who has this movie and knows the scene I'm speaking of...

I'm refering to the LARGE PINK DOT ALL BY ITSELF towards the middle of the waterfall chart....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v24/weezR/Waterfall%20SPL/TheHaunting_cold.jpg

bjillyjcu,
That chart indeed looks challenging. Can you measure the SPL you observe at the listening position when you push the sub to it's limits? I am interested to know the limitations of the PB-12NSD. Also can you post your room dimensions, how leaky and how far away is your listening position from the sub and if the sub is corner loaded. Sorry, if this is already posted somewhere else.
Thanks,
-Jai

Sorry guys, I like reading this thread for what it was. How did this become a support thread? Please take some of these discussions to another thread.

Well everyone I got it, my HSU VTF-2.3 came today a day early I won't have time to hook it up until tomorrow after work bummer :( I can't wait :) I hope it does blow me away :eek: :D I'll post then

Sorry guys, I like reading this thread for what it was. How did this become a support thread? Please take some of these discussions to another thread.


I was thinking the same thing. How did it get so far off topic? :(

Sorry guys, I like reading this thread for what it was. How did this become a support thread? Please take some of these discussions to another thread.


sorry, guess that is my fault. i will revise my question and leave it at that.

craig,
you ranked the x-sub at 78 pts. have you heard the BIC H-100 or STF-1? Are either of these over 78 pts? Which do you recommend?

sorry again for going off topic.

Tri73 I think their comments were aimed at me for posting about the Haunting and my PB-12nsd performance.....I thought it was actually VERY relavent to this topic based on performace of the sub, the output and response.......

My hope was to have others try this scene out with their subs....namely HSU owners (2.3, 3.2, 3.3, HO owners with Turbo or Non-Turbo) and SVS owners (pb-12, plus series, and Ultra Series).......but really ANYONE with a sub that we have talked about in the 25pages...

This specific DTS soundtrack was actually special for this movie.........it was designed for real subwoofers......I think this scene would be a VERY VERY good testing scene (like Master and Commander) for anyone to use, including Craig if he has access to this DTS version.

I'm sorry if you felt this was taking us away from Sub rankings, but I really actually thought this might help us to explore the subs performace even more.

:D

Tri73 I think their comments were aimed at me for posting about the Haunting and my PB-12nsd performance.....I thought it was actually VERY relavent to this topic based on performace of the sub, the output and response.......

My hope was to have others try this scene out with their subs....namely HSU owners (2.3, 3.2, 3.3, HO owners with Turbo or Non-Turbo) and SVS owners (pb-12, plus series, and Ultra Series).......but really ANYONE with a sub that we have talked about in the 25pages...

This specific DTS soundtrack was actually special for this movie.........it was designed for real subwoofers......I think this scene would be a VERY VERY good testing scene (like Master and Commander) for anyone to use, including Craig if he has access to this DTS version.

I'm sorry if you felt this was taking us away from Sub rankings, but I really actually thought this might help us to explore the subs performace even more.

:D
I think its a good idea to have specific scenes from specfic DVD's (DTS vs DD) that several of us have access to so that there is a common reference, and this is one of my favorites.

Why? Because it is one of two scenes that I know of that my sub (older Velo F1500r) just can't handle. (The other is a club scene from Blade II). Now there are many other scenes that I don't get the SPL I'd like, but this is a real easy way to evaluate (read eliminate) the less capable subs. With a really good sub, it blows me away - the only time that has happened so far was with a Velo HGS18 in a B&W 801 Nautlis system. :eek: $$$$

It might be a little off topic, but it helps to keep the thread active without going too far astray. :)

Guys - I have been in meetings for the past day - looks like some interesting stuff is going on here. Some thoughts ....

1. MRL - Actually, I was a Physics major in college ... but the pay SUCKED. Now, as mentioned by fellow AVSer tdekaney, I sell cars ... :D ... Seriously, I do find the "thesaurus mentality" which some reviewers use to be rather silly.

2. The Haunting looks like a great demo disc ... I need to buy it.

3. The location being used to place the subwoofer yields exceptional results. The room is 44 feet long, 14 feet wide, with 7 foot ceilings using scoustic tiles. Three walls are all concrete, with all having thick insulation behind drywall. There is also a stairway splitting the room. Guys like jakeman, Bossobass, Rijax ... etal ... have been in this room. They know the characteristics of the room. It was built with a hign end system in mind.

Mr. Bott made a good point about moving the subwoofer 2 feet, and getting different results. This is why we are so careful to place each sub so it is centered properly in the location used. Those who are wondering about the reliability of what we are measuring here need to look at the graphs as posted.

If we were having issues with room acoustics, we would not have the success we have had with the graphs looking like they do.

4. The BIC sub has gotten pretty good reviews from those who have had it ... I have not experienced it, but think it would be a good choice.

The STF-1 really is about a match for the X-sub ... It is residing at my dealership partner's home ... and really is a close match for the X-sub. I have no issue calling it a 78, essentially matching the X-sub.

Speaking of getting off track .... That SVS "subwoofer-room" product looks to be a really good product. I cannot WAIT to get it and a new Ultra here.

Guys I wrote about this in another thread, but the sandstorm/crash scene in Flight of the Phoenix gives your sub a real test as well. It was actually the first (and only actually) scene that caused my PB12-Plus/2 to bottom out when tuned at 20hz. I since changed it to 25hz tuning and I do not get any bottoming out as suggested by SVS service techs. There's one note I believe at 15:45-15:51 (about 6 seconds) when the plane is losing altitude and the passengers are screaming that is very loud and sustained; this is the note that bottomed out my SVS. Anyway Tom from SVS told me that that scene (and note) is one of the most demanding scenes for a subwoofer on any DVD to this day. So for those of you that have not tried this out yet, I highly suggest you give this scene a go.

Guys I wrote about this in another thread, but the sandstorm/crash scene in Flight of the Phoenix gives your sub a real test as well. It was actually the first (and only actually) scene that caused my PB12-Plus/2 to bottom out when tuned at 20hz. I since changed it to 25hz tuning and I do not get any bottoming out as suggested by SVS service techs. There's one note I believe at 15:45-15:51 (about 6 seconds) when the plane is losing altitude and the passengers are screaming that is very loud and sustained; this is the note that bottomed out my SVS. Anyway Tom from SVS told me that that scene (and note) is one of the most demanding scenes for a subwoofer on any DVD to this day. So for those of you that have not tried this out yet, I highly suggest you give this scene a go.

That is the "note" that is designed to give you the feeling of pressure inside the plane. It is a very demanding passage.... especially at high volumes.

The note during the knocking scene in The Haunting where the cold enters the room and they say "can you feel that" is also very demanding and very low.

-Eli

The note during the knocking scene in The Haunting where the cold enters the room and they say "can you feel that" is also very demanding and very low.

-Eli

I have been talking about that for here for like 2 days...LOL I actually copy and pasted the chart from the waterfall thread for us!

a HUGE 22hz SIGNAL that really is something massive!

Guys I wrote about this in another thread, but the sandstorm/crash scene in Flight of the Phoenix gives your sub a real test as well. It was actually the first (and only actually) scene that caused my PB12-Plus/2 to bottom out when tuned at 20hz. I since changed it to 25hz tuning and I do not get any bottoming out as suggested by SVS service techs. There's one note I believe at 15:45-15:51 (about 6 seconds) when the plane is losing altitude and the passengers are screaming that is very loud and sustained; this is the note that bottomed out my SVS. Anyway Tom from SVS told me that that scene (and note) is one of the most demanding scenes for a subwoofer on any DVD to this day. So for those of you that have not tried this out yet, I highly suggest you give this scene a go.

Good choice for a torture track and I included it in a custom sub tester DVD disc I made of bass heavy scenes . That FOTP scene more than any other would cause my Ultra to bottom. Got to say despite all the bottoming that sub endured from driving it hard in a large open space, it just keeps on ticking to this day without any lasting effect. Its well built.

Sorry if this offends anyone. I didn't take the intent of this tread to exclude testing and/or comparisons by anyone other than craigsub (although his are much better than mine or most others).

Anyway, I did check out The Incredibles scenes tri73 mentioned.

At 95-100dB, I couldn't make the STF-1 pop on any of them.

Mine is carefully calibrated flat, not hot (mostly used to listen to classical music, not movies), so I didn't want to change its settings. To try to approximate what might happen under greater stress I turned the main speakers off and played the STF-1 by itself. I still could not make it pop, but once I did incur some minor chuffing (not consistently repeatable) that would have been masked by the mains if they were on. Clearly, a limiter comes into play before audible distress occurs, because I couldn't push the sub over 100dB.

Mine is located at the center of a side wall, about the worst possible location for boundary reinforcement, so it might manage more output in other rooms. It's also a little closer to the wall than Hsu recommends, which might have helped induce the chuffing. (I didn't think to move it out.)

Nonetheless, in my small 15 X 15 BR, I think the STF-1 comes closer to a top level sub's perfomance than craigsub's estimated 78 rating implies. But it can't deliver the last few Hz, and in a bigger room, it couldn't keep up with most of the big boys he tests.

Anyway, I did check out The Incredibles scenes tri73 mentioned.

At 95-100dB, I couldn't make the STF-1 pop on any of them.

.

thank you very much for running that for me. Im buying the X-sub for my home theatre and, like you, using it in a bedroom stereo once i save up for a "True Sub". Thank you all for the help. i will report back with my impessions.