from reading SJmarcy's posts I would never have guessed he was an SVS fan.

Oh well.


So any new news on some subwoofer testing?

Lets speculate :D .....1 SINGLE PB-Ultra 13 vs DUAL HSU 3.3 or DUAL SVS PB-12NSD

How do you think things would stack up in terms of EXTENSION, MAX SPL, HEADROOM?

Wow...

Sorry Craig your right, but it important to see "why you where attacked here" and that with Sjmarcy repeating private stuff he is obviously in contact with SVS.

Ddavidson

please...this thread has already gone off the rails several times...let's right the ship. posting this stuff will only lead to the haters/fanboys piling on and perpetuating an already bad situation.

the people who frequent this thread are well aware of what's going on... :(

Carry on guys...

I'll remove any further posts regarding the sjmarcy issue.

whoa....wait, I thought we were talking about Camels :confused: :p :D

http://uploader.ws/upload/200702/kittahShenanigans.gif

i had a question reguarding some of the ranking scores. I am particularly intersted in the scores for the SVS nsd12, SVS pb12+/2, and HSU 3.3. why did the pb+/2 only receive 1 point more than the NSD12 considering it supposedly uses a better driver x 2, and a bigger amp and box. I have been interested in the PB12+(single driver) and PC+ for awhile based on some of the positive feedback on this forum. Would the single pb12+ actually score lower than the NSD or am I missing something. I'm assuming the consensus here is that the vtf3.3 would be an improvement over the single PB12+ or PC20-39+. All thoughts are welcome, especially from Craig :)

i had a question reguarding some of the ranking scores. I am particularly intersted in the scores for the SVS nsd12, SVS pb12+/2, and HSU 3.3. why did the pb+/2 only receive 1 point more than the NSD12 considering it supposedly uses a better driver x 2, and a bigger amp and box. I have been interested in the PB12+(single driver) and PC+ for awhile based on some of the positive feedback on this forum. Would the single pb12+ actually score lower than the NSD or am I missing something. I'm assuming the consensus here is that the vtf3.3 would be an improvement over the single PB12+ or PC20-39+. All thoughts are welcome, especially from Craig :)

The PB12-NSD beat out the PB12-Plus/2 in the blind tests, especially in music production. The Plus/2 is capable of higher SPL ... but everyone who heard it prederred the NSD on music tracks.

Here were the 2 scores for each sub, broken out.

PB12-NSD ... HT = 41 ... Music = 45
PB12-Plus/2 ... HT = 46 ... Music = 41

The PB12-NSD beat out the PB12-Plus/2 in the blind tests, especially in music production. The Plus/2 is capable of higher SPL ... but everyone who heard it prederred the NSD on music tracks.

Here were the 2 scores for each sub, broken out.

PB12-NSD ... HT = 41 ... Music = 45
PB12-Plus/2 ... HT = 46 ... Music = 41

Interesting... So it is possible that a single PB12+ might score higher than both. Wondering if the lower score is because of the 2 driver configuration not sounding as 'musical' as a single driver?

Craig, is there any chance we can get a breakout in your list of the scores for each HT and Music? Some of us have dedicated theaters, or dedicated listening rooms, where only one score may be applicable.

Craig, is there any chance we can get a breakout in your list of the scores for each HT and Music? Some of us have dedicated theaters, or dedicated listening rooms, where only one score may be applicable.

I am checking the notes, including the extension numbers ... and should have that ready in a couple days.

Craig,
Back to ranking...
Thanks for posting the additional info. If you can post the 5-tuple I requested earlier for all the subs that were ranked and if it is not too much trouble that would be great. Boy, it has been an intense day here in the forums for sure.
-Jai

Interesting... So it is possible that a single PB12+ might score higher than both. Wondering if the lower score is because of the 2 driver configuration not sounding as 'musical' as a single driver?
Interesting thought. Note that the PB12-NSD is tuned natively at 18Hz and the Plus/2 to 20Hz. If the Plus/2 had been tuned to 16Hz, then that could have affected the results. There could be other things with the cabinet and drivers like you said.
-Jai

PB12-NSD ... HT = 41 ... Music = 45
PB12-Plus/2 ... HT = 46 ... Music = 41


I am really only concerned about the HT score because I do not use my sub for music at all.

If a single PB-12NSD got 41 for HT, What would we speculate a Dual Stacked pb-12nsd would be scored at? (46-47-48)????

Can the score for music be elaborated?
Is it on a scale of 50? How exactly were the numbers arrived at? I am not questioning, just curious.

I am really only concerned about the HT score because I do not use my sub for music at all.



There is music in practically every movie we watch, whether it's orchestral (Gladiator, Star Wars), or rock/pop/modern.

I assume the "music" score means tightness, detail, and articulation in the bass. This translates to HT by delivering more subtle details and tonality in explosions, rumbles, etc.

I have a VTF-3 Mk2, with bass traps and a BFD eq. Although it digs down to the mid-teens and does great for HT, the detail and articulation, especially with the bass traps and eq, make music sound 10x better. Music on CD and in movies. HT is also enhanced because of that detail. Watching the infamous scene in The Haunting DTS at -12 or so, the sound is huge, but it's controlled and I can hear the details and subtle level/frequency changes, rather than just huge amounts of SPL all blending together.

Musicality is also about mid-bass, which some subwoofers may sacrifice in order to achieve deeper extension and higher SPLs down low. But the kicked-in-the-chest feeling comes from mid-bass, while the deep bass is what shakes your insides.

That's just me, though, and why I think "musicality" ratings still apply to HT. :D
Of course if none of that matters and you're only going for max SPL above all else (like car audio bass heads), detail, articulation, texture, etc. doesn't really matter. And I have a feeling the "HT" ratings are more about depth of extension and SPL down low.

There is music in practically every movie we watch, whether it's orchestral (Gladiator, Star Wars), or rock/pop/modern.

This is music to my ears :)
Why on earth are not people recognizing this??? :mad: All that I hear is I want a sub for music or I want a sub for movies. I have struggled with this long and hard and I am talking through experience here.
I am trying so hard to boil this to it's essense!
Readers please go back a few pages and read my post #959. I am really hoping to get some meaningful ratings from the next review. It also appears to me that I was the first one here asking for multi-dimensional ratings and people started chiming in and for some reason all the important points I had made in my post simply slipped through the cracks. What I suggested is not complicated. For goodness sake, this is a science forum and I hope we raise the bar here.

And also please pay attention to post #942. This guy here is taking so much effort to evaluate subs with his own money and I don't want it to go to waste. Honestly, people like me (if there are any of you here), ignore Craig's rankings since it is simply a number and I don't believe in one number representing a sub and that is just me and I am sure there are some here who share the same view but don't speak out. I am trying to make Craigs efforts as effective as it possibly can. Not many people spend so much time and energy. I think his views are mistaken sometimes but as a fellow audiophile I recognize what he is trying to do.
Craig, what you do is next to impossible. Honestly, I wouldn't have the energy or finances to do that, so I support you here. Just make sure the comparisons are as much as possible apples to apples. For example, tuning and calibration. Also, if possible, hand out evaluation sheets to each participant and try to make them seat in the same position one after the other (this may become impractical if the audience is large, so try and do your best). In short, try to make sure that every sub is evaluated with the same parameters around it.
For the record, I am not affiliated to one company or one product. I love subwoofers, and I love sound. Among all the plethora of companies I have encountered in this business, SVS to date has delivered the best products for my expectations and I salute them for that.
I don't care at the end of the day if HSU, Danley, SVS or even BOSE (the most respected name in sound :) :) :) ) wins the vote. I just want the points to be realistic. Do consider the multi-dimensional points I suggested. A single point mark is simply naive and ridiculous to say the least. My 0.02 for what it is worth!!!!

There is music in practically every movie we watch, whether it's orchestral (Gladiator, Star Wars), or rock/pop/modern.

At EOD, I am glad there is at least one person here who shares my view in this particular aspect. :) Is there anyone else?

At EOD, I am glad there is at least one person here who shares my view in this particular aspect. :) Is there anyone else?

That is a great point. I think we all get caught up the movie/music scenario as if they are mutually exclusive. A "good" subwoofer should handle ALL program material well. That's why choosing the right sub is important....so if you get a sub that can handle the demanding LFE segements it should be articulate enough to add extension to music.

Absolutely, JComp! Much great and award winning music is recorded in a 'movie' channel format -- the same standards of fidelity in reproduction equipment apply to 5.1 and 7.2 channel systems as apply to 2ch systems.

Anyway, I've got some catching up to do.... :)

Craig, a couple pages ago you said: "For a smaller room with music being 50% of the listening, the UFW-12 might be the choice."

This brings to mind the fact that even for music-only applications many folks will run woofers like this in pairs -- as you did. Pairs of UFW-12's, pairs of Forces, pairs of SB12-Plus's are so common that I personally would rank then that way.

Also a couple pages ago, Ear mentioned ranking any sub with output much over 80Hz as Garbage. This shows the dichotomy between folks using subs for theatrical effects and folks using subs as music woofers. Depending on the speakers and instruments involved crossovers may extend up to 150Hz -- of course as I noted above, subs for music use are often paired with and co-located with the mains so localization is not an issue.

I'm very glad to hear the PB12-NSD design working as well as it is -- this is the first significant cabinet re-design SVS has done and it looks like their persistance is paying off...

That is a great point. I think we all get caught up the movie/music scenario as if they are mutually exclusive. A "good" subwoofer should handle ALL program material well. That's why choosing the right sub is important....so if you get a sub that can handle the demanding LFE segements it should be articulate enough to add extension to music.

Agreed, but so far, haven't we seen that a single sub doesn't do both that well????? Its usually a tradeoff of musicality or extention????

I've been playing around with the new HSU MBM-12 and somehow think that part of the answer (in concept at least) is having a seperate unit to handle the midbass.

Interesting... So it is possible that a single PB12+ might score higher than both. Wondering if the lower score is because of the 2 driver configuration not sounding as 'musical' as a single driver?

I am also interested to know if a single PB12+ will score higher or lower against PB12nsd and PB12+/2. Would anyone know?

whoa....hold on.

I think my point about caring only about HT is being misunderstood. I TOTALLY understand there is "music" in movies.....but wouldn't that fall under the overall HT score? Movie scores and even the Artists songs in movies are recorded in 5.1 and the LFE, to me, of those tracks is much stronger anyways than a regular CD...

The MUSIC score I would think would be ranking how the sub performs when you are poping in CD's of Hard Rock, Classical, Soft Rock, Pop, Rap, ect....

Gents (and ladies, if any are silly enough to be here :) )...

Let's not get too carried away with the numbers. Bgilly ... The PB12-NSD score 86 overall ... 41HT and 45M ... As an estimate, I thought a pair would likely score 89, strictly based on the additional output. At MOST, the HT content would go up by 3 points ... not 5-7 as you asked about.

As for the PB12+ ... I am planning on, once we get the numbers sorted out for the individual stuff, trying out the PB12-Plus/2 sans baseplate, drivers firing forward, in its 16 and 20 Hz modes.

Patience, please ... This is being done in my spare time, which is currently a rare commodity.

And, again, please keep in mind that your best option is STILL to audition a sub for yourself.

Gents (and ladies, if any are silly enough to be here :) )...

Let's not get too carried away with the numbers. Bgilly ... The PB12-NSD score 86 overall ... 41HT and 45M ... As an estimate, I thought a pair would likely score 89, strictly based on the additional output. At MOST, the HT content would go up by 3 points ... not 5-7 as you asked about.

As for the PB12+ ... I am planning on, once we get the numbers sorted out for the individual stuff, trying out the PB12-Plus/2 sans baseplate, drivers firing forward, in its 16 and 20 Hz modes.

Patience, please ... This is being done in my spare time, which is currently a rare commodity.

And, again, please keep in mind that your best option is STILL to audition a sub for yourself.

Oh no somebody got hurt! :p You "only" gave 86 to the little SVS! Oh NOOOOO

Just be direct about it,if they want a sub with a score better than perfect...JL Audio is the way to go. :p

Some people have too high expectations of budget products,even great budget products.They refuse reality

Assigning scores is such a can of worms :p

I think that the variable tuning options of the SVS subs is a great way to illustrate just how different peoples preferences are when it comes to bass reproduction with music. From time ti time I help people setting ip their hometheaters, not as a professional, I just think it is a great way to meet people with similar interests.

Some of them have had the same sub I do, a PB12-Plus. Myself, I'm a strictly 12hz tune man for music, and I've tried to advocate this to others with varying success. many actually prefer the 20hz tune for music because of its richer and fuller sound (or bloated if you will). Even when I use tracks that in my ears sounds much worse in 20 than 12hz tune, and point out the differences, they still prefer the 20hz option.

As for music in movies, most of us are still listening to heavily compressed DD tracks, and therefore I think that music reproduction within movies is bordering on moot, but that is just my opinion.

Assigning scores is such a can of worms :p

Which is why the numbers will go no further than the movie score, music score and extension. The purpose of this is to assist people in narrowing a choice down to 2-4 subs ... not to make the decision for them. :)

As for the PB12+ ... I am planning on, once we get the numbers sorted out for the individual stuff, trying out the PB12-Plus/2 sans baseplate, drivers firing forward, in its 16 and 20 Hz modes.

Patience, please ... This is being done in my spare time, which is currently a rare commodity.

And, again, please keep in mind that your best option is STILL to audition a sub for yourself.
This is a good idea and I am interested in your findings with and without baseplate and also front vs downfiring. I am guessing the Plus/2 will match or beat the PB12-NSD in 16Hz mode in overall performance. Well said about auditioning the sub. I also think for what you do, companies/manufacturers should cut you some slack with shipping or share the cost if they want their products evaluated in real world.
-Jai

I think that the variable tuning options of the SVS subs is a great way to illustrate just how different peoples preferences are when it comes to bass reproduction with music.
Which is part of the reason why Hsu productized variable tuning in the VTF subs 7-8 years ago, but it was more so for those that wanted higher output for HT.....the Hsu subs were/are always music first.

In Howard Ferstler's recent review of the VFT-3 Mk-3 in Sensible Sound (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/VTF_3MK3SensibleSoundReviewJanFeb2007.pdf) he wrote the following regarding the benefits of subwoofers:
Second, a subwoofer will allow the satellite amps of the system to deal just with frequencies above the low-bass range, increasing dynamic headroom. This will be the case both with two-way and three-way speaker systems.
Using the MBM-12 would also increase dynamic headroom for the subwoofer amp. If a VTF-3 Mk-3 is using a crossover of 80 Hz and a VTF-2 Mk-3 is using a crossover 50 Hz (and an MBM-12), what effect will this have on the output of the low frequencies? Craig, I would be interested in seeing a comparison of the VTF-2 Mk-3 with MBM-12 vs the VTF-3 MK-3 by itself. I actually purchased the VTF-2 MK-3/MBM-12 combo this week, so the outcome won't effect my purchase decision. :)

The purpose of this is to assist people in narrowing a choice down to 2-4 subs ... not to make the decision for them. :)

^^^one of the most important sentences in this entire thread. :D

Agreed, but so far, haven't we seen that a single sub doesn't do both that well????? Its usually a tradeoff of musicality or extention????

I've been playing around with the new HSU MBM-12 and somehow think that part of the answer (in concept at least) is having a seperate unit to handle the midbass.

Well, I think the Velodynes and the offerings from JL Audio have both categories covered pretty well...

Well, I think the Velodynes and the offerings from JL Audio have both categories covered pretty well...

I have a velodyne and frankly with the MBM, something additional is brought to the table. I'm still experimenting with intergration, so my mind isn't totally made up as to how good an implementation this is.

Greater extension does make a difference in the musicality of a subwoofer along with other design parameters (sealed, horn etc).
The MBM though a fascinating idea may not be that easy to integrate and really I would not prefer a bloated mid-bass. I think the simplest and easiest way to achieve the best performance is to start with a single subwoofer that has a very good extension (say 16Hz or better 12Hz) and is reasonably flat (ignore room interaction for now) across the board (say upto 80Hz). It does not have to have earth shaking SPL and if it delivers about 100dB (12 or 16Hz to 80Hz) at the listening position that is a very good starting point. Now this basic sub becomes the basic atom and a building block and I will call this an "atomic sub" :). Now one can start adding 2, 3, 4 or if crazy even more such units to achieve SPLs based on taste. Of course, the math works only if you co-locate them. If the atomic sub is a single woofer sub, adding another sub gives 3dB more. Adding 3 more forming a quartet will give an additional 9dB to the atomic one making the quarted twice as loud at limits. A single DD18 or f113 can very well be an atomic sub, but depending on the room size, one may have to add multiple units. In my mind, the math is simple. Just add more subs as you need. The more I ponder and talk to experienced folks, mixing and matching subs appears to not be the best way to upgrade.
It looks like good candidates for atomic subs are the 16-46, HSU HO turbo, sealed offerings from Velo, JL, ACI or any one of those good companies.
With what was just said in mind, when subwoofers are compared, one can fix a budget, say $3K and then do the comparisons. For example, compare dual Plus/2s to an f113, trio 16-46 to an f113 or DD18. Dual HO-turbo to Dual 16-46+. Again some are natively tuned to 20Hz and some lower or higher. A fair comparison should take the tuning into consideration. A Danley DTS-20 is natively tuned to 20Hz. Comparing that to a Qartet of 16-46+ would not be fair because of the native tuning of the 16-46+. To rephrase, it is ok to compare but not ok to assign points that say one is better than the other.
Makes sense?

For example, compare dual Plus/2s to an f113, trio 16-46 to an f113 or DD18. Dual HO-turbo to Dual 16-46+.

I'd love to see that all done....

The 16-46+ really has me personally thinking. I liked your idea of 12hz or 16hz to 80hz FLAT at 100db....then add 2 and so on....

Thats my thinking as well.

<edit>

Some people have too high expectations of budget products,even great budget products.They refuse reality

Again, TheEAR nails it.

There is a certain air of a hot-dog eating contest/taste test around a lot of forums I'm getting acquainted with. How many can you try (without throwing up) before you find the hotdog you love the most? All the while people use terms appropriate to describing a killer cigar, a fine wine or grass fed Argentine filet mignon. But when you get the final bill for the hotdogs, you realize you could have had all three of the latter!

I have to admit I'm a little bummed out by the politics involved in a relative few manufacturers making a lot of "noise" in the guise of "news". It's a kind of two-edged sword:

If you truly think you are making a great product, and make a lot of noise, and then suppress the reality of other products' performance virtues, you end up hurting your own organization! Instead of letting the market be a honing stone and taking data from that evolution, the same old hash keeps getting served up with propaganda on the side.

It's not just about what Craig is doing NOW, but as his criteria mature, where his efforts will LEAD that excites me! A lot of people have had excellent seeming suggestions that are well thought out, but likely impractical for Craig to put into practice on their behalf (and maybe not that much FUN). With that said let me add another preposterous demand; cast your net wider Craig! Without sacrificing your integrity, if you include many more manufacturers, you may find a lot of "loaners" on your doorstep postage prepaid.

Doesn't that sound fun? :D

Everyone,

Any opinions on the Martin Logan series of subwoofers? I have a Grotto and I love it, but its very tight and does not overwhelm me with its power. It is 250W RMS. I was thinking about running another sub off the analogs from the Grotto (sub out too). Sound like a good idea?

What are your opinions (if any) of the Grotto? What would be a good companion sub?
What do you think of the Descent? P.S. Money is a concern, the Descent is just a dream right now. I got the Grotto for music (I feel it was worth it, but was fairly expensive nonetheless), this sub would drive HT needs primarily.

Thanks for the info I've gotten so far.
I would like to hear about this also.I have the grotto and like alot also but none the less would like to find out the consensus.

Craig,
With all these suggestions coming in, you are probably about to run out of the room. So hang in there!
You obviously know it is impossible to satisfy everyone. Try to filter and implement the good suggestions. At the end of the day, it is your call. Regardless which way you go, I will look forward for the next set of results.
Take care,
-Jai

Greater extension does make a difference in the musicality of a subwoofer along with other design parameters (sealed, horn etc).
The MBM though a fascinating idea may not be that easy to integrate and really I would not prefer a bloated mid-bass. I think the simplest and easiest way to achieve the best performance is to start with a single subwoofer that has a very good extension (say 16Hz or better 12Hz) and is reasonably flat (ignore room interaction for now) across the board (say upto 80Hz). It does not have to have earth shaking SPL and if it delivers about 100dB (12 or 16Hz to 80Hz) at the listening position that is a very good starting point. Now this basic sub becomes the basic atom and a building block and I will call this an "atomic sub" :). Now one can start adding 2, 3, 4 or if crazy even more such units to achieve SPLs based on taste. Of course, the math works only if you co-locate them. If the atomic sub is a single woofer sub, adding another sub gives 3dB more. Adding 3 more forming a quartet will give an additional 9dB to the atomic one making the quarted twice as loud at limits. A single DD18 or f113 can very well be an atomic sub, but depending on the room size, one may have to add multiple units. In my mind, the math is simple. Just add more subs as you need. The more I ponder and talk to experienced folks, mixing and matching subs appears to not be the best way to upgrade.
It looks like good candidates for atomic subs are the 16-46, HSU HO turbo, sealed offerings from Velo, JL, ACI or any one of those good companies.
With what was just said in mind, when subwoofers are compared, one can fix a budget, say $3K and then do the comparisons. For example, compare dual Plus/2s to an f113, trio 16-46 to an f113 or DD18. Dual HO-turbo to Dual 16-46+. Again some are natively tuned to 20Hz and some lower or higher. A fair comparison should take the tuning into consideration. A Danley DTS-20 is natively tuned to 20Hz. Comparing that to a Qartet of 16-46+ would not be fair because of the native tuning of the 16-46+. To rephrase, it is ok to compare but not ok to assign points that say one is better than the other.
Makes sense?


Makes sense?

The idea of using a good subwoofer design that works well, then scaling up
the design by adding more to achieve desired SPL levels is what I call
'common sense'. I didn't think we needed to explain this simple concept to
people involved with audio. I guess I was wrong :p :D

People are looking for the Holy Grail subwoofer {or whatever product}, but sometimes the clever solution eludes them. If I need one subwoofer for
my application, then I will automatically consider two, three, or four for the
project to over-engineer the need to make it more future proof.

If you can't afford extra subwoofers, then build your own or get a woodworking
friend to help you out. You can build an amazing DIY subwoofer for the money
and I would never consider buying store product if you have the skill to execute the plan. There are tons of DIY subwoofer threads in cyberspace. The data
is there.

whoa....hold on.

Movie scores and even the Artists songs in movies are recorded in 5.1 and the LFE, to me, of those tracks is much stronger anyways than a regular CD...



I've never noticed that. Maybe it's because movies are watched at higher volumes, set at comfortable dialog levels, which puts the music at much louder levels than we would sit and listen to on their own?

After adding bass traps and eq'ing my sub flat, I've found that practicaly all of my CDs deliver excellent, tight bass, especially when turned up loud.

The idea of using a good subwoofer design that works well, then scaling up
the design by adding more to achieve desired SPL levels is what I call
'common sense'. I didn't think we needed to explain this simple concept to
people involved with audio. I guess I was wrong :p :D

At first, I didn't think either :p

You can build an amazing DIY subwoofer for the money
and I would never consider buying store product if you have the skill to execute the plan. There are tons of DIY subwoofer threads in cyberspace. The data
is there.

Why do I shy away from DIY subwoofers? I wish I had the skill and time to do it. I have built a tube pre-amp before but a sub is a different beast.

I have a velodyne and frankly with the MBM, something additional is brought to the table. I'm still experimenting with intergration, so my mind isn't totally made up as to how good an implementation this is.

Interesting. I am curious to see how well you can integrate the MBM in your system. One the surface it sounds (no pun inteneded) like it would do more harm than good. But, I have been wrong about audio gear many times.

I've never noticed that. Maybe it's because movies are watched at higher volumes, set at comfortable dialog levels, which puts the music at much louder levels than we would sit and listen to on their own?

After adding bass traps and eq'ing my sub flat, I've found that practicaly all of my CDs deliver excellent, tight bass, especially when turned up loud.


I can totally agree to that....Even when I actually DO hook up my iPod to my system while cleaning or working on something I do not have it at -7db (like a movie), I probably am in the -20 to -15 range.....

Interesting. I am curious to see how well you can integrate the MBM in your system. One the surface it sounds (no pun inteneded) like it would do more harm than good. But, I have been wrong about audio gear many times.


You should pm Dr Hsu and let him know that he doesn't know what he is doing. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Really...

The idea of using a good subwoofer design that works well, then scaling up
the design by adding more to achieve desired SPL levels is what I call
'common sense'. I didn't think we needed to explain this simple concept to
people involved with audio. I guess I was wrong :p :D

People are looking for the Holy Grail subwoofer {or whatever product}, but sometimes the clever solution eludes them. If I need one subwoofer for
my application, then I will automatically consider two, three, or four for the
project to over-engineer the need to make it more future proof.

If you can't afford extra subwoofers, then build your own or get a woodworking
friend to help you out. You can build an amazing DIY subwoofer for the money
and I would never consider buying store product if you have the skill to execute the plan. There are tons of DIY subwoofer threads in cyberspace. The data
is there.

I would really enjoy the process of building a good DIY project. The problem from my perspective is that there are so many false claims made about the performance of some of them (not unlike commercial subs). No one wants to admit they just wasted hundreds of dollars and many hours for something that is not so good.
So, if there were concrete plans for some models with various budgets and levels of performance out there that have been tested by someone reputable, I would certainly try it. The possibility of throwing gobs of money at something just to gamble is not appealing. I want to know what I am getting BEFORE I build it.

That would be a great project for someone to put together and publish plans of tested subwoofers at various costs and performance on a website. Unless there is already such a site, it sure would be a hit. At least in my opinion...

You should pm Dr Hsu and let him know that he doesn't know what he is doing. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Really...

No need to get in a huff. I am just saying that in my experience if you have flat response across the board with a quality subwoofer, adding another variable (speaker) into the equation can often produce more problems than solve the minor ones that it was intended to fix. I am sure Dr. HSU knows what he is doing, but no two situations are the same. Maybe I am missing the whole point behind the MBM??

At first, I didn't think either :p



Why do I shy away from DIY subwoofers? I wish I had the skill and time to do it. I have built a tube pre-amp before but a sub is a different beast.


I am with you.........its the tools needed really that are holding me back from this road.

I mean looking at the pictures from people who have done it you really need A LOT tools!!! I'd probably spend 200-300-400 just on TOOLS!!!!

Compound miter saw, jig saw, router, bits, clamps, saw horses, ect...

There are a number of vendors that offer premade boxes that can be used to construct subwoofers. Start with a sealed design box, match up a driver with their help, add an EQ and amp or an integrated plate amp, and throw in some damping material. You'll probably just need a few hand tools and maybe a soldering iron.

Your second option is to HIRE a capable hobbyist to do the box for you, according to your desired template. I bet a few avid builders wouldn't mind a small return on the investment of their tools. Call it tool pooling!

:D

I would really enjoy the process of building a good DIY project. The problem from my perspective is that there are so many false claims made about the performance of some of them (not unlike commercial subs). No one wants to admit they just wasted hundreds of dollars and many hours for something that is not so good.
So, if there were concrete plans for some models with various budgets and levels of performance out there that have been tested by someone reputable, I would certainly try it. The possibility of throwing gobs of money at something just to gamble is not appealing. I want to know what I am getting BEFORE I build it.

That would be a great project for someone to put together and publish plans of tested subwoofers at various costs and performance on a website. Unless there is already such a site, it sure would be a hit. At least in my opinion...

I've been in the DIY audio sector for 23 years. People into this hobby has made
successful subwoofers. When cyberspace became popular and free speaker
modeling sofware available for download, it's very easy to execute a DIY subwoofer as long as you have the ability to do a good job at cutting wood
and source some of the materials.

DIY subs will beat store bought subs in the same price category, there is no contest.

I don't recommend that you should build your own subwoofer if it's a one time
project. But if you like audio and like to build things, and always buy audio gear,
the DIY method is great.

There is plenty of resources available to execute the project. Subwoofer design is actually very easy.

Yup. Thyster will agree that "If Bogie can do it, anyone can do it."

are these rankings based off loudness or clarity

i'm trying to have the perfect system that i can have clean tight bass with lots of boom when called for but can still follow a bass line w/o muddying it up.

i don't want something that i can compare to the girls i hooked up with in college
(sloppy and loose)

If you want sloppy, loose, low morals and a mid-bass hump buy a SVS sub, if you are looking for a tight performer with honest, straight linear output go for the current HSU offerings. :D
If this is not asking for trouble, I don't know what is!

What are sloppy, loose, low morals?

bwahahaha

are these rankings based off loudness or clarity

i'm trying to have the perfect system that i can have clean tight bass with lots of boom when called for but can still follow a bass line w/o muddying it up.

i don't want something that i can compare to the girls i hooked up with in college
(sloppy and loose)
They are not just based on loudness and clarity. Please go back a few pages and read through and it will become clear. You don't have to read the complete thread. Craig uses 5 types of characteristics and assigns a single point based on the points in each of those.

What are sloppy, loose, low morals?

bwahahaha
I cant remember her name as it was decades ago, but she certainly was popular at school. :D :D

Ddavidson

Well if you want a mid-bass hump thats asking for trouble. Every SVS sub I've examined had one of those. Not so with the HSU subs. They are great all round subs and anyone taking a close look at their line will see they now have the crown when it comes to price and performance. You want a loose ride with a big low end and not much on top buy another sub. :p

Well if you want a mid-bass hump thats asking for trouble. Every SVS sub I've examined had one of those. Not so with the HSU subs. They are great all round subs and anyone taking a close look at their line will see they now have the crown when it comes to price and performance. You want a loose ride with a big low end and not much on top buy another sub. :p
Jakeman,
I am really curious about this mid-bass hump. Not just you, but at least a couple of others from reputable companies made this comment off-line. It turned out that it was just a comment because they could not give me valid data for it.
Do you have any measurements that show this? Was it a perceived one through listening? Objective or subjective?
Please post your measurments, if you do have any. I have owned several SVS subs and none of the ones I have measured had this mid bass hump as you call it.
Thanks,
-Jai

Sure Jai. Glad to help you see how poor and unlinear they are north of 40hz where most of the serious bass and slam comes from. Do you think there is not a price to be paid for inductance and mass designed to produce extrension at the expense of more natural performance higher up the band. Here is a graph of my Ultra, one of their better subs right, taken at groundplane and in 4pi space. Not very flat is it? When you are through with this I'll dig up the Plus/2. It gets better. :)

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/JohnPalumbo/2pi20vs204pi.jpg

Thanks.
Do you have an overlay of an HSU with an SVS or the HSU by itself with measurements taken in the same environment?
-Jai

Here are the graphs as posted by Ilkka on a PB12-Plus/2 and the VTF-3.2 ... both in native tune.

PB12-Plus/2:

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/svs%20pb12-plus2%2025hz%20plus12.3%20fr.png

VTF-3.2

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/hsu%20vtf3%20mk2%2025hz%20fr.png

I'd posted this expanation earlier that its pretty well accepted now that the same SVS designs that gave good extension compromise the mid/high bass reproduction. Response and rolloff 40hz and up has a significant impact on sound quality. Its very difficult to optimize bass, ergo sound quality, in that critical region with a heavy cone and high Le driver. I understand the design compromises involved especially if the primary objective is extension and SPL down low. Extended listening or a side by side test usually show such compromised designs will not sound as good compared with subwoofers having better mid/upper bass control. That's why I describe them as loose, with a big low end and not much up top.

In fact the only SVS sub that does a descent job with FR north of 40hz is the PB10. The rest are relatively poor performers using that criteria. But many people don't worry about the quality of the mid-bass because SVS guerrilla marketing is all about extension and boomy output for obvious reasons. :rolleyes: Rather than me or Craig, (thanks for that post) digging up more graphs check it out for yourself at AVTalk and Illka's stuff at HTShack.

Thank you gentlemen, this is good stuff. Oh the beauty of data. I love it!
I now need to do some thinking and analysis.
Later..

I was going to post the HTshack graphs, but craig beat me to it. Blast!

Another thing - looking at the graphs...notice on the PB12-Plus/2, when the XO is at Min, the SPL below the XO rises. This seems to correlate in a way with the data provided before in the limiter discussion, where midbass spl may have been limited by high low-bass output. This seems to work in reverse - relieve the cone of it's midbass responsibilities and it tries to push harder down low. This might just make sense...

Craig,

From the latest graph is is very clear to anyone who knows how to read the data,the HSU will be a more musical and more linear subwoofer with greater extension. Or,superior sub,and this by a good margin.

Knowing it can also sustain quite high SPL. The choice is easy here. Just my two little cents here.

I'd posted this expanation earlier that its pretty well accepted now that the same SVS designs that gave good extension compromise the mid/high bass reproduction. Response and rolloff 40hz and up has a significant impact on sound quality. Its very difficult to optimize bass, ergo sound quality, in that critical region with a heavy cone and high Le driver. I understand the design compromises involved especially if the primary objective is extension and SPL down low. Extended listening or a side by side test usually show such compromised designs will not sound as good compared with subwoofers having better mid/upper bass control. That's why I describe them as loose, with a big low end and not much up top.

In fact the only SVS sub that does a descent job with FR north of 40hz is the PB10. The rest are relatively poor performers using that criteria. But many people don't worry about the quality of the mid-bass because SVS guerrilla marketing is all about extension and boomy output for obvious reasons. :rolleyes: Rather than me or Craig, (thanks for that post) digging up more graphs check it out for yourself at AVTalk and Illka's stuff at HTShack.

This has proven true for me in my room, both through subjective listening and objectively using manual test tone measurements with an RS meter on my SVS PB12-NSD and HSU VTF-3.3. The HSU is much more linear into the mid/upper bass, and to my ears noticeably more detailed and articulate. I'm totally sold on the 3.3!

Here are all of the results for the subwoofers tested, where craigsub posted the graphs from:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/


Just to compare...

VTF-3 Mk2 (older version) in 25Hz mode:
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/hsu%20vtf3%20mk2%2025hz%20fr.png


VTF-3 Mk2 (older version) in 20Hz mode:
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/hsu%20vtf3%20mk2%2020hz%20fr.png


The SVS PB10 that jakeman mentioned:
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/svs%20pb10%20fr.png

I'd posted this expanation earlier that its pretty well accepted now that the same SVS designs that gave good extension compromise the mid/high bass reproduction. Response and rolloff 40hz and up has a significant impact on sound quality. Its very difficult to optimize bass, ergo sound quality, in that critical region with a heavy cone and high Le driver. I understand the design compromises involved especially if the primary objective is extension and SPL down low. Extended listening or a side by side test usually show such compromised designs will not sound as good compared with subwoofers having better mid/upper bass control. That's why I describe them as loose, with a big low end and not much up top.

In fact the only SVS sub that does a descent job with FR north of 40hz is the PB10. The rest are relatively poor performers using that criteria. But many people don't worry about the quality of the mid-bass because SVS guerrilla marketing is all about extension and boomy output for obvious reasons. :rolleyes: Rather than me or Craig, (thanks for that post) digging up more graphs check it out for yourself at AVTalk and Illka's stuff at HTShack.
The many times I have done direct listening comparisons and measurements with any of my Hsu Research subwoofers I have found the same issue. It is apparent that this is why so many SVS owners are finding the Hsu MBM-12 greatly improves their systems balance. For me its about the sound being balanced across the whole range rather than just being able to replay low loud one note special effects. Dr Hsu has always designed for music first and the spl capability is just part of his design efficiency (not a design priority).

Ddavidson

Craig,

From the latest graph is is very clear to anyone who knows how to read the data,the HSU will be a more musical and more linear subwoofer with greater extension. Or,superior sub,and this by a good margin.

Knowing it can also sustain quite high SPL. The choice is easy here. Just my two little cents here.


Yes, exactly. I'm the proud owner of a VTF-3 Mk2. It's a great sub to start with, but I added bass traps and an eq - both elements essential to let a sub perform at its truest potential.

Once people get past the "holy $#!t, the walls are shakin'!" phase of a new sub upgrade, they either simply relish in the wall-shaking boom and want more of it, or they work to achieve the best sound quality and fidelity. People who go for the latter go for subs that do >25Hz better, not ones that compromise >25Hz for SPL <25Hz. Of course the nicer Hsu subs do both. In 20Hz mode, my VTF-3.2 goes into the mid-teens, and still hits hard through the rest of the frequencies.

The 3.3 and HO seem to have it right on both ends (most of the Hsu do, actually, with the 12" models), digging deep and staying strong up high. The maple finish probably looks great, too. Not as many finish options as some other brands, but still, there seem to be no sound quality compromises with Hsu.

Good post Ddavidson. The fix for anyone with an SVS sub, other than PB-10 owners consists of buying the HSU MBM-12 and balancing the two. No more mid bass hump or sloppy seconds. :D

If you want sloppy, loose, low morals and a mid-bass hump buy a SVS sub, if you are looking for a tight performer with honest, straight linear output go for the current HSU offerings. :D


1. IF you are being serious you should be kicked off and never come back


2. if you are being funny please know that it is IMPOSSIBLE to detect sarcasim throught internet print...

Loose & sloppy?

Good grief, and I thought I was in trouble!

As counterpoint, elevated output rising below 40Hz actually adds detail and pitch definition for most people, because of the Fletcher-Munson curves described profile of human frequency aquity. If it was just a frequency boost, if can easily be rectified with EQ or a room placement change. There might be another reason for the sound quality differences not directly related to frequency response. Got an EQ handy John?

Martin

Perhaps Martin. In the GTG at Craigs a couple of years ago we listened intently for a good couple of hours and there was a difference in sound quality with various HT and music tracks which we all heard. I felt at the time the mid/upper bass reproduction was lacking and that lack of linearity 40-100hz was the most likely reason. A sub with more linear FR generally has more detail and articulation all other things being equal.

Bgillyjcu lighten up or we'll take your sherriffs badge away. Did you not notice a big grin smiley in my post?

The SVS PB10 that jakeman mentioned:
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/svs%20pb10%20fr.png[/QUOTE]

You have to admit that the PB10 is one of the best bargains you will ever find. ;)


Ian :)

Does the PB10-NSD have the same response as the ISD?

Does the PB10-NSD have the same response as the ISD?
Good question, and I have not seen an independent measurement of the PB10-NSD.

If you judge by PB12Plus/2 with the 12.1 Illka tested and the PB12Plus/2 with the 12.3 driver, I would say probably not.

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/svs%20pb12-plus2%2025hz%20db12.1%20fr.png

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/svs%20pb12-plus2%2025hz%20plus12.3%20fr.png

How about the PB12-Plus in 16hz tune? 14-100hz +/- 1.5db, do you really need a flatter response, and if so;why?

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/images/svspb12plus-16%20Hz%20FR%2024th%20octave.gif

"If you want sloppy, loose, low morals and a mid-bass hump buy a SVS sub, if you are looking for a tight performer with honest, straight linear output go for the current HSU offerings."

was it wrong of me to lol at that comment?

No you got the joke but kudos go to Sumfoo1 for coming up with that funny bad girl metaphor. ;)

Question please!!! :o

Although a ruler flat frequency response sound like what we want, in reality for home theater use, isn't a mid-bass hump desireable for many that want that "slam in the chest" effect?

Here are the graphs as posted by Ilkka on a PB12-Plus/2 and the VTF-3.2 ... both in native tune.

PB12-Plus/2:

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/svs%20pb12-plus2%2025hz%20plus12.3%20fr.png

VTF-3.2

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/hsu%20vtf3%20mk2%2025hz%20fr.png
Why do these not correlate with measurments here on SVS website (http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-plus2.cfm#curve)?

One more point to consider.
Let's also look at the maximum output level chart. Frequency response by itself gives us only one dimension, so let's take it to the next step of analysis.
Here is the
maximum output levels chart of the Plus/2 at 20Hz (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/996-svs-pb12-plus-2-20-hz-plus-12-3-a.html).

And here is the one for HSU 3.2 (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/986-hsu-vtf-3-mk2-20-hz.html).

Note the 110dB line. A good representation of the performance at operation in the proximity of reference levels.

The 3.2 is 97dB at 20Hz and the 107dB at 50Hz and it flattens out (just a 2dB drop to 80Hz). That is a 10dB slope.
The Plus/2 is 101dB at 20Hz and 111dB at 40Hz which is also a 10dB slope but steeper.
Then there is a 6dB drop from there on to 80Hz.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. In fact it turned out better in my room and probably most other rooms would behave the same. Reason, I usually cross over at 60Hz or 80Hz and because of the mains at the crossover point, there is always a small peak there (if you phase it correctly) and unless you have a crossover like a Marchand, it is hard to compensate for that. One place you really don't want a hump is from the 50Hz to 80Hz range. I hate that bloated sound. I think one should also factor in psycho-acoustic effects partly explained by the Fletcher Munson curve (http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm)
and it becomes more clear to me why the Plus/2 sounded so beautiful in my setup.
Very good data points. Depending on individual tastes people may prefer different things.
Finally it has become clear to me what on earth this hump is :).
Thanks guys,
-Jai

Better to look at the ISO 226 2003 revs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_curves) that shows the steeper slopes at close to ref levels.
Thinking out loud.......
Shows how far we have come since 1933 and I am glad we are at 45nm and not vacuum tubes (love these on my pre-amp though) for computation :D.

Not defending any brand or model of sub, but! Isn't it more important on how it
sounds/measures with your main speakers? You don't listen to just your sub.
Many of us have speakers that can produce good bass in the 40-80hz range.
I have an SMS-1 and have always measured my sub with my speakers. I get
a flat response, so I don't care if it's the sub or the speakers as long as it sounds
right.

Does the PB10-NSD have the same response as the ISD?

According to SVS; yes.


"If you want sloppy, loose, low morals and a mid-bass hump buy a SVS sub, if you are looking for a tight performer with honest, straight linear output go for the current HSU offerings."

was it wrong of me to lol at that comment?


HSU VS SVS; the Hatfields VS the Mcoys. :D


Ian

Jai,

I like to see your awareness of the Fletcher-Munson perceptual curves. Something to think about is that tubbiness or boom in a system isn't just from transients at maximum level, but in the lower level signals between transients. Either as a decay or separate source, it is my belief much of the flavor and differences people hear between loudspeaker systems is in what a speaker is doing at lower levels. This means that in a movie soundtrack, the dynamic ranges can often be far wider than 20dB. The sound balance is then really at 70-80 phons, as opposed to the peaks at 100 phons or more. I also submit that 100 phons is VERY LOUD, and sustained tones used to perform the tests may have either driven the participant's ears near overload, or a kind of dynamic compression (See TTS (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/deaf.html) ). Since the ear is a physical system not unlike a loudspeaker or microphone, there will be excursion limits on the diaphragm, linking bones, and the outer and inner hair cells. That could help explain the "flattening" of the curves at higher amplitudes. This overload curve may also be nonlinear but not to the same extent due to physical structures rejecting very low and very high audio baseband frequencies.
Ear canal resonances also stack up in the mid-band, which further increase sensitivity away from the extremes.

The creative part of anyone setting up their sound system, is that they are the final intermediary between the artist's performance, the compensation the sound engineer has ALREADY DONE to partly reshape a recording to make it sound "right" in a studio setting, and their own preferences. The result is that many times, you'll be reaching for the controls you have available in your system on a per movie or per music recording basis, to converge all of the factors into your target listening zone. In many cases you are tweaking the differences between your perception and that of the recording engineer's!

Looking at the curves, you could see an argument can be made that at least on the low end, a starting point of around 100Hz or lower, using the curves at 80-90 phons suggest a 6dB rise to 30hz, and an inference of further boosting required below that. However, any sins a subwoofer system may be committing at low frequencies is also intensified, so its a case of increased scrutiny.

I hope audio enthusiasts don't feel any "shame" about running a system with very low frequency emphasis within the bounds suggested by psychoacoustic research. Its only human to want a tad more bass! :D

In fact the only SVS sub that does a descent job with FR north of 40hz is the PB10. The rest are relatively poor performers using that criteria.

interesting...and looking at the graphs cyberbri posted, it seems the PB-10 ISD is as linear (or even more so) than the Hsu subs. i always thought that the whole mid-bass hump thing with SVS subs was overexaggerated, but maybe not, as the only one i've ever owned/heard is the PB-10 ISD. kinda makes me glad i didn't stretch my budget at the time for a PB-12 :D

if i were in the market for a new sub now, it seems to me that the Hsu VTF 3.3 hits a real sweet spot in terms of price/performance. it just looks like a killer deal right now...

The 3.3 or the ISD is more and more looking like the atomic sub I am shooting for :). I would surely like 4 of the 3.3s or even an octet of the ISD :D
Martin,
Fantastic points. Feel enlightened here.

It appears to me that people have been overly concerned with the hump thing and it turns out to be a non-issue.
However, I am a bit bothered that what is posted on their website (+/-3dB) does not still correlate to Illkka's (+/- 7dB) measurements. One of the two is not correct. I hope we get an explanation from either party on what is going on.

interesting...and looking at the graphs cyberbri posted, it seems the PB-10 ISD is as linear (or even more so) than the Hsu subs.
It is defnitely interesting. It looks as though the PB-10 almost mirrors the 3.2 as far as the FR is concerned.

You guys keep saying ISD....

But don't you really mean the new NSD woofer or are you actually talking about the Old Model SVS sub?

It is defnitely interesting. It looks as though the PB-10 almost mirrors the 3.2 as far as the FR is concerned.

And so does the PB12-Plus when in 16hz tune, except that it extends deeper and therefore should sound even better since ringing and GD will be moved firther down in the frequency range,

Are we headed for a new trend, where FR alone defines how a sub sounds? :)

However, I am a bit bothered that what is posted on their website (+/-3dB) does not still correlate to Illkka's (+/- 7dB) measurements.

On the website, we claim 20-100 Hz +/- 3 dB for the PB10-NSD. The PB10 Ilkka tested measured 20-100 Hz +/- 1.75 dB.

Why do these not correlate with measurments here on SVS website (http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-plus2.cfm#curve)?
I'm pretty sure the plot on SVS website is for 12.1 drivers, not 12.3 (because it's been the same for years). So you should look at Illka's 12.1 data (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/995-svs-pb12-plus-2-20-hz-db12-1-a.html), too.

AV Talk has also measured the Plus/2 12.1 (http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14729&start=0&rid=14&SQ=1126361620). Their data seems to match to Illka's.

On the website, we claim 20-100 Hz +/- 3 dB for the PB10-NSD. The PB10 Ilkka tested measured 20-100 Hz +/- 1.75 dB.
Hi Ed,
Thanks for chiming in.
I was referring to my post #1083 about the Plus/2 response. Illkka's measurements there does not co-relate to what is posted on the website. Please read my post#1083 in this thread.
I would also like to know your take on this "hump issue". I can sit here and speculate all day, but it is no substitute to hearing from you. The so called hump is there and I see it on all the charts posted by Illkka for the boxes and the cylinders except for the PB10-ISD. It is not exactly in the mid-bass region as many say here but it is in the 30Hz to 50Hz range. I see mid-bass as being over 50Hz.
-Jai

Yes, to me mid-bass is 50~80hz as well. 30~50hz to me is low bass, and below that lower/deep.

I'm pretty sure the plot on SVS website is for 12.1 drivers, not 12.3 (because it's been the same for years). So you should look at Illka's 12.1 data (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/995-svs-pb12-plus-2-20-hz-db12-1-a.html), too.

AV Talk has also measured the Plus/2 12.1 (http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14729&start=0&rid=14&SQ=1126361620). Their data seems to match to Illka's.
No, they don't seem to match.
I am comparing the charts in links you pointed. A/V talk's "frequency response magnitude chart" to Illkka's "Maximum output level chart" for the Plus/2 with db12.1 drivers. It appears they are both depicting the same thing but named differently?

If you look at the 105dB orange line, A/V talk shows at 20Hz, it is 104dB and at 30Hz, 105dB. Ilkka's chart shows, 102dB at 20Hz and 106dB at 30Hz (A 4dB hump) progressively getting worse 110 and 115dB with the hump shifting to 40Hz. Unfortunately we don't have the same data points (110 and 115) from A/V talk. A/V talk's data appears to match SVS data though.
-Jai

The site seems terribly slow. Any one else experience this, this morning?

Some of the models do have a flatter FR than others - probably the best performing models in this respect are the SB12-Plus, the PB12-NSD, and the PB10-NSD. Naturally we want all models to have a ruler flat FR - progress is ongoing in that regard.

Also, some of the models have a flatter FR in the lowered tune than in the native tune; the PB12-Plus graph shown above is a good example. It measures 18-100 Hz +/- 3 dB in the in the native 20 Hz tune, and 14-100 Hz +/- 1.5 dB in the 16 Hz tune.

Ed,
Good info on the SB12-Plus, the PB12-NSD, and the PB10-NSD.
Would still like an answer to my question in post #1096.
Thanks,
-Jai

The site seems terribly slow. Any one else experience this, this morning?

YES! It is excruciatingly slow and problematic, almost unusable at this point.

No, they don't seem to match.
I am comparing the charts in links you pointed. A/V talk's "frequency response magnitude chart" to Illkka's "Maximum output level chart" for the Plus/2 with db12.1 drivers. It appears they are both depicting the same thing but named differently?

If you look at the 105dB orange line, A/V talk shows at 20Hz, it is 104dB and at 30Hz, 105dB. Ilkka's chart shows, 102dB at 20Hz and 106dB at 30Hz (A 4dB hump) progressively getting worse 110 and 115dB with the hump shifting to 40Hz. Unfortunately we don't have the same data points (110 and 115) from A/V talk. A/V talk's data appears to match SVS data though.
-Jai
You shouldn't compare frequency response data to maximum output data due effects of compression. If you compare AV Talk's 90dB sweep to Ilkka's frequency response sweep, they match extremely well. Both have a small hump above 20 Hz, then pretty flat up to ~60 Hz, then around 5-6 dB slope all the way above 100 Hz. SVS' own data is much flatter than either of these two.

Richard,
Agreed. I am comparing max output sweeps to max output sweeps. Just saying that they are named differently by each of the above.
In other words, the 90dB line in the max output chart is the same as the frequency response chart "bypass series".

However A/V talks data is not showing the same response as Ilkka's sweeps for higher SPL and I wonder why.

The 12.3 sure looks worse in terms of flatness.

I think SVS should start paying attention to flatter response in current and future driver revs. I sure would like to see max output sweeps for the PB10-NSD. I hope the almost razor flat response of the PB10-ISD is not lost too much in the newer rev.
The 12.1 curves (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/995-svs-pb12-plus-2-20-hz-db12-1-a.html) sure look nice to me and that was the Plus/2 I had owned a few years ago.
I am beginning to think twice about the 12.3.

YES! It is excruciatingly slow and problematic, almost unusable at this point.
I've had to pour three drinks just waiting for this page to load.

Now a question. Velodyne HGS-18 vs. the F113. Is there enough of a difference to make a new purchase? The Velo is a hell of a sub, but if there is a justifiable purchase to be made, so be it. I'm quite happy with the HGS, but don't like putting upgrade money in the wrong place anymore than anyone else.

Loose and sloppy! :rolleyes: Please SVS makes some great subwoofers.

People do not exagerate and blow things out of proportion here.The HSU simply measured so damn well it may embarass subs costing way more.

The SVS measured well,showing it has a nice fat bump from 30-50Hz and its slightly warm character will impress more non audiophiles.Like over 90% of buyers.

Dr HSU has done simply a terrific work and has come out with a product that is near ruler flat from just below(!) tune to where a sub is supposed to roll off(the mains take over). No way you can disguise those graphs otherwise(unless the measuring methods or products were flawed...and I doubt that one).

Nice to have arguments,but at this point HSU is clearly showing extraordinary consistancy.I cannot wait for the new Ultra subs from SVS. :)

We just got back from another swim meet invitational ... this one in Cleveland. It is funny how much happens in a thread when one is gone for 20 hours.

More points ...

1. SVS are "loose and sloppy" ? They are not the last word in articulation, but they are pretty darn good. Even the graph posted is +/- 3 dB from the 25 Hz tuning point to 80 Hz. And We did try the Plus/2 sans bass plate - and the NSD still performs better on music. If anyone asks, I would steer him to the NSD or all the way to the Ultra.

2. It was mentioned about Frequency response being the only important measurement ... no one has suggested that. All that happened is 2 comparative graphs with response curves were posted.

3. It is ALMOST happy hour here.

I've been in the DIY audio sector for 23 years. People into this hobby has made
successful subwoofers. When cyberspace became popular and free speaker
modeling sofware available for download, it's very easy to execute a DIY subwoofer as long as you have the ability to do a good job at cutting wood
and source some of the materials.

DIY subs will beat store bought subs in the same price category, there is no contest.

I don't recommend that you should build your own subwoofer if it's a one time
project. But if you like audio and like to build things, and always buy audio gear,
the DIY method is great.

There is plenty of resources available to execute the project. Subwoofer design is actually very easy.

Thanks thylantr,

Do you have any designs that you would recommend that have something to compare the performance to with some retail offerings?

3. It is ALMOST happy hour here.

It's ALWAYS happy hour here. Cheers :p :D

Craig,
The HSU 3.2 and PB12-NSD should be very identical in performance considering that they have about the same frequency response and also you gave them scores that were pretty close.

Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo: 88 points
SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points

These two in my mind, are very good qualifiers for an "atomic sub". I would really appreciate if you can post some more details on how these two compared and what the points breakdown (Music, HT, extension, articulation, MaxSPL) is? I recall the PB12-NSD got 45 points for Music.

Does anyone happen to know the THD, group delay and impulse response of PB12-NSD. We have these for the HSU 3.2 and this comparison would shed some light into why people prefer one sonic signature over the other.
I am beginning to see consistency in your numbers.
Thanks,
-Jai

Jai,

You are using VTF-3 Mk2 and 2.3 interchangeably. They are virtually the same sub, except the 2.3 is newer and has a 250w amp compared to the 3.2's 350w amp. The 2.3 sells for about $470 now.

The SVS measured well,showing it has a nice fat bump from 30-50Hz and its slightly warm character will impress more non audiophiles.Like over 90% of buyers.



My experience and point exactly a few posts back, and if you prefer a flatter response, just use one of the lower tunes

Who and based / rated on what gives all these subs points ?

Please explain ?

Who and based / rated on what gives all these subs points ?

Please explain ?


That information is all in this thread.

Craig, when you have time, would you remind us what speakers and x-o's you are using in the various rooms? Are you still using the ACIs?

And this is somewhat off topic, but since you have tested so many subs I'll ask:

Have you ever set your sub distance longer than the actual distance to the sub, or had an auto-eq system do the same? I wish I could remember the posters name -- he had to quit posting due to time considerations IIRC -- who suggested a 3-4 msec delay in sub electronics processing, especially for DSP subs -- and the solution of 'lying' to your prepro by adding 3-4 feet per processing stage on to the actual sub distance to get it to 'early' the sub signal by as equivalent amount.

That information is all in this thread.

Yes, all he has to do is go through the 1100 posts to find it!

Craig, this post (and others like it)got me to thinking about how these threads could be much more productive to people who are just interested in your testing results/impressions, etc. Don't know if you have the ability to set up a "webpage", but I think a great idea would be to set up one with your results and testing methodology, all the subs tested, your personal impressions, etc. where only you can update it.

This way when people just want to see the results, they don't have to go through 2000 posts (between AV123 and this thread) to figure out what your methodology is.

Inevitably, people are going to b*tch and complain, doubt your results, ask you to test 6 billion different budget subs, and that makes these threads all but useless to people who just want to get to the results on the subs you've actually tested versus just clicking on a webpage to see your results thus far.

Then they can use these forums to ask questions, discuss the results, and, of course, attack your credibility, etc. :p .

Have you ever set your sub distance longer than the actual distance to the sub, or had an auto-eq system do the same? I wish I could remember the posters name -- he had to quit posting due to time considerations IIRC -- who suggested a 3-4 msec delay in sub electronics processing, especially for DSP subs -- and the solution of 'lying' to your prepro by adding 3-4 feet per processing stage on to the actual sub distance to get it to 'early' the sub signal by as equivalent amount.

The phase response of the subwoofer - relative to that of the main speakers - can be adjusted with either a variable phase control, or with the subwoofer distance control in the AVR or pre/pro.

I suggest using the subwoofer distance (if the pre/pro has such capability) because it allows very precise adjustments in the menu - particularly in the metric units, which is usually in 0.1 meter increments.

If you sweep the speaker and sub which are physically closest, you'll be able to adjust the subwoofer distance until you get the smoothest FR across the XO bandwidth - then that speaker and the subwoofer are optimally phased. This can/will make a big improvement in sound quality and the "on time" perception of the bass.

Note that it is common (but not a hard rule) for the subwoofer distance to be a few feet longer than actual because of the group delay imposed on the subwoofer output signal by the low pass filter in the digital bass management system. The extra distance you dial in actually accounts for this group delay, resulting in optimal subwoofer phasing in the time domain with that speaker.

This is also why many auto-set-up routines in AVRs set the subwoofer distance longer than actual; they are measuring the actual time it takes for the subwoofer signal to reach the mic and compensating accordingly.

Yes, all he has to do is go through the 1100 posts to find it!

I think a great idea would be to set up one with your results and testing methodology, all the subs tested, your personal impressions, etc. where only you can update it.

This way when people just want to see the results, they don't have to go through 2000 posts (between AV123 and this thread) to figure out what your methodology is.

I posted a similar suggestion in a shootout thread last year, but, as usual, the thread was deleted when things got out of hand. It would be nice if forum building software would allow for the creation of a monolog thread or thread creator moderated thread. The creator could either be the only one allowed to post or posts can be submitted to the creator and that person can decide if it should be allowed through.

The forum mods would still have to watch for these to ensure someone isn't creating one to use as their own personal soapbox. But this would allow for an easier to read thread without all the 'keep up the good work', 'you're a moron', 'who shot Kennedy' posts.

I posted a similar suggestion in a shootout thread last year, but, as usual, the thread was deleted when things got out of hand. It would be nice if forum building software would allow for the creation of a monolog thread or thread creator moderated thread. The creator could either be the only one allowed to post or posts can be submitted to the creator and that person can decide if it should be allowed through.

The forum mods would still have to watch for these to ensure someone isn't creating one to use as their own personal soapbox. But this would allow for an easier to read thread without all the 'keep up the good work', 'you're a moron', 'who shot Kennedy' posts.

It would be nice Randy, but I won't hold my breathe. There are simply too many egos and agendas at work. Things are often worse here than in the current political climate.

I don't think that a Forum would go for that approach unless it is the Forum's employees who have done the testing, otherwise it would look as if they are approving/promoting the tests.

They do this at av123 (Mark and Sean have threads only they can post to which are quite useful actually).

But anyways it's just a suggestion, don't want to derail this thread any further!!! :o

The phase response of the subwoofer - relative to that of the main speakers - can be adjusted with either a variable phase control, or with the subwoofer distance control in the AVR or pre/pro.

Don't forget that variable phase control can only ADD delay. So subwoofer's virtual position will only go further, not closer. Distance control in the AVR can adjust it both ways.

Its been great skiing yesterday and today and its funny to see so much analyzing about the tongue in cheek bad girl comment earlier. Apologies to any bad girls reading this thread. :)

I used "Loose and sloppy" as an anecdote to suggest the relative difference in sound quality between the existing HSU lineup and most of the current SVS subs. The main fault comes from SVS humped and uneven frequency response, with output compromised in the mid/higher bass thereby contributing to a loss of detail and articulation. I suspect there are likely other factors such as IMD prevalent but those artifacts are hard to measure and document. "Lack of detail and articulation" is a more tactful way of saying "loose and sloppy". Sound quality is not a forte of SVS subs but I don't expect that from a design that emphasizes and sells its subs based mainly on low end thump.

The Hsu subs in comparison provide sound quality that is missing fronm the SVS subs. If you listen and compare a Plus/2 or Ultra next to the 3.3 using something like the opening bass riffs in Eric Clapton "Sessions with Robert J" DVD, Studio Session 1, the difference is very apparent. The SVS subs have smeared , loose and sloppy, sounding bass while the Hsu sound in contrast is clear and detailed. I haven't heard the PB-10s but their superior FR should show up as better articulation and detail and less sloppy bass compared to the other SVS subs. Different strokes for different folks but I go for sound quality every time.

My tongue in cheek comment has dual meanings. "Loose and sloppy" can also apply to marketing practices by the way. ;)

My question was just a friendly one.......
Indeed having to read a complete afternoon all input is demanding !!

When I read this thread from Europe I see someone's own private ranking list ? But who says no financial interests are behind the ranking list ? That is why I asked for explanation in general. As a private person I am curious.

For example: I like driving BMW and Alfa Romeo and hate Mercedes so perhaps some tester prefers HSU instead of AV123 ?

Would still like an answer to my question in post #1096.
Thanks,
-Jai

I admire you for asking this simple question as least 3 times. The wall of silence is par for the course every time someone asks. The simple explanation is that no independent testers have been able to replicate most of the FR graphs at the SVS site. Those subs just aren't linear like they have been presented. Go figure why they post those graphs. :rolleyes:

I admire you for asking this simple question as least 3 times. The wall of silence is par for the course every time someone asks. The simple explanation is that no independent testers have been able to replicate most of the FR graphs at the SVS site. Those subs just aren't linear like they have been presented. Go figure why they post those graphs. :rolleyes:

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/SVSPB12Plus2p4.php
These graphs accurate? I like the reveiws on the HSU but I prefer the look of the PB12+ wood(s). I probally wouldn't notice the diff. My ears aren't thay articulate. :)

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/SVSPB12Plus2p4.php
These graphs accurate? I like the reveiws on the HSU but I prefer the look of the PB12+ wood(s). I probally wouldn't notice the diff. My ears aren't thay articulate. :)
Those measurements were taken nearfield....closer than 1m, so there it is unlikely, with that particular model, that he could have gotten an accurate measurement with port integration. Unless I missed it, he doesn't say exactly how close he was or the relationship of the mic to the ports and drivers.

I bet you could hear the differences if you demo'd them.

There are plenty of blog websites that can be used for free. It would be easy to post results there, pictures, links to the various threads, etc. And websites like flickr host pictures for free that can be embedded in the blog or on the threads.

This would be a great and easy solution to compiling the methodology, graphs, test results and observations, etc.

Craigsub,

Sure hope you will help me to make me see how subs are being rated.
Where can I find all the test data, score cards and so on ?

I bet you could hear the differences if you demo'd them. Maybe , I would also like to save $350+ and get the Hsu Vtf-3MK3. But I would think the The PB12+ would go alot louder with a 525w amp? I like the deep bass in movies my Ascends I would hope would get the mids I would be missing? The Ascend sound good without a sub for music IMO. Nothing in this post rates the PB12+ so I'm just curious. I'm saving till Sep. My bday :) Waf is a big factor. My 2 PB10 subs are hidden in other rooms. The sub I'm getting now needs to look good. It's going to be seen or I wouldn't have issues. Still maybe I'll bet a maple Hsu but they are never in stock?? :(

Watts aren't everything. There's the efficiency of the driver and the enclosure, and doubling the watts only gains 3dB in SPL.

true but I figure same amp co = Bash . Drivers made by SVS are decent?? Svs vs Hsu. Both decent co. Having a larger amp would help in the mid range?? Nothing here has the PB12 +. Just curious. Not comparing Polk to HSU. Like I said I would rather save $350+ but with the waf That much $$ isn't an issue. $$ is an issue or I would get the ultra and be done

Jai,

You are using VTF-3 Mk2 and 2.3 interchangeably. They are virtually the same sub, except the 2.3 is newer and has a 250w amp compared to the 3.2's 350w amp. The 2.3 sells for about $470 now.
My bad. Good catch. I did mix up the two. So 3.2 would have scored a bit higher than the 2.3 but a bit less than the 3.3. I am doing some extrapolations on multiple subs and will start a thread shortly. Stay tuned.

I admire you for asking this simple question as least 3 times. The wall of silence is par for the course every time someone asks. The simple explanation is that no independent testers have been able to replicate most of the FR graphs at the SVS site. Those subs just aren't linear like they have been presented. Go figure why they post those graphs. :rolleyes:
They probably have good reasons for not disclosing the reason for the FR we see. If the FRs in the website are old, they need to be updated though. I will ping Ron next week regarding this.
One thing I have zero tolerance is for misrepresentation and over hyped marketing claims. I don't think SVS is one of those companies from all my experience with them in the past. If they can answer something, they will, if they cannot, they will not and I respect that. I am sure they are busy with all the new designs rather than worrying too much about what is going on here and updating their web-site. But as a past customer, I am going to remind them again.
-Jai

I am doing some extrapolations on multiple subs and will start a thread shortly. Stay tuned.

This looks interesting ... I am working on some ideas on how to take this test, compile the test data (my photobucket account alone has 152 graphs in it), and the listening scores into a forum which would be used strictly for this purpose.

It would be "interactive", with opinions sought and conversations had about the products ... without the having to put up with the occasional "constant whiner" type.

Jai - I am looking forward to your results. :)

Ironmike. You mentioned earler that your ears can't tell the difference whether bass is articulate. I used to think that was a curse but these days I'd say its a blessing and your lucky. Budget isn't an issue with me so I'll buy a better sub if its more articulate sounding. My sub collection is getting larger as a result.

If all you want is deep low output for explosions and such get the 12+. If you want more clarity get the 3.3 which also performs with HT LFE. Or move that pair of PB10s which may be your best solution.

This looks interesting ... I am working on some ideas on how to take this test, compile the test data (my photobucket account alone has 152 graphs in it), and the listening scores into a forum which would be used strictly for this purpose.

It would be "interactive", with opinions sought and conversations had about the products ... without the having to put up with the occasional "constant whiner" type.

Jai - I am looking forward to your results. :)
Craig,
Don't set your expectations too high :D. I am simply going to play with numbers, use simple math and plot some charts. Some excel tricks that's it. I will try to get to it tonight or early next week. If you need help with data representation and analysis in the future, I will glad to do so.
Regards,
-Jai

If you listen and compare a Plus/2 or Ultra next to the 3.3 using something like the opening bass riffs in Eric Clapton "Sessions with Robert J" DVD, Studio Session 1, the difference is very apparent. The SVS subs have smeared , loose and sloppy, sounding bass while the Hsu sound in contrast is clear and detailed.

Jakeman - just curious, but I thought in an earlier post (I'd go look for it to make sure I'm recalling correctly, if this thread wasn't 38 pages!), but you ranked the HO and Ultra "equal" in the subs you've heard. Has something happened to change your opinion?

Tx

Jakeman - just curious, but I thought in an earlier post (I'd go look for it to make sure I'm recalling correctly, if this thread wasn't 38 pages!), but you ranked the HO and Ultra "equal" in the subs you've heard. Has something happened to change your opinion?

Tx

Jakeman, I think the post pbc is asking about is here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9523837#post9523837

Jakeman - just curious, but I thought in an earlier post (I'd go look for it to make sure I'm recalling correctly, if this thread wasn't 38 pages!), but you ranked the HO and Ultra "equal" in the subs you've heard. Has something happened to change your opinion?

TxI had them as equal, you are correct. What changed my opinion was comparing the two subs with this track last week. The first tune in the studio session 1 is "Kind Hearted Woman Blues". Before they begin the tune, Nathan East is plucking a very crisp riff on his bass guitar for about 20 seconds. This track is now one of my new bass reference tests. I'd now give the nod to the HO which reproduced it audibly more detailed and tighter. The Ultra was not as articulate and sounded smeared in comparison much to my surprise. Both the HO and the Ultra sounded much better than the Plus/2 which had a sloppier sound in comparison .

The whole DVD is very well recorded and a must for anyone with a taste for the Blues. :cool:

Maybe , I would also like to save $350+ and get the Hsu Vtf-3MK3. But I would think the The PB12+ would go alot louder with a 525w amp? I like the deep bass in movies my Ascends I would hope would get the mids I would be missing? The Ascend sound good without a sub for music IMO. Nothing in this post rates the PB12+ so I'm just curious. I'm saving till Sep. My bday :) Waf is a big factor. My 2 PB10 subs are hidden in other rooms. The sub I'm getting now needs to look good. It's going to be seen or I wouldn't have issues. Still maybe I'll bet a maple Hsu but they are never in stock?? :(
You need to read this.....
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/VTF_3MK3SensibleSoundReviewJanFeb2007.pdf

Sound quality over loudness, but the VTF-3MK3 will give you both if you are comparing to the PB12+....and they are in stock right now.

Here it is Extrapolations on multiple subs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=800497) as promised.
The charts show that 4 HSU 3.2s are roughly equivalent to 2 Plus/2s in terms of MaxSPL.
The Plus/2 has the edge over the tuning point and the 3.2s under the tuning point. The edge for Plus/2 will be due to the boost in lower bass (30 to 50Hz) that could make movie experience more dramatic (simply because it is louder by about 1.5x or 5dB in those frequencies where a lot of movie bass is). I put the genelec there for your amusement :).
Of course, one should not forget group delay and impulse response where the HSU combo performs better. How audible those parameters are will depend on the listeners ears.
The hump is really not an issue, so I think it is best to get over it. If examined carefully the HSU charts appear to have a hump in the 60s. So don't get carried away with the hump.
I would pay more attention to THD, group delay, impulse response and other parameters in making a final decision rather than the razor flat frequency response. A small bit of EQ or lower tuning points will easily fix the hump if used over a wider band and with a small dip in your PEQ. Please feel free to post your thoughts in that thread.
Thanks,
-Jai

You need to read this.....
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/VTF_3MK3SensibleSoundReviewJanFeb2007.pdf

Sound quality over loudness, but the VTF-3MK3 will give you both if you are comparing to the PB12+....and they are in stock right now.

Cshang,

According to tests of the Pb12+ from Ed Mullen, it is a beast of a subwoofer. The VT3MK3 put 112 db @ 20 Hz in room...this is very good. But also, the Pb12+ put 101.3 db, 10.4% THD 2m Gp , which would easily lead in a moderately sized room with corner placement to 113-115 db (boundry gain + LF gain).

Moreover, in the 16Hz tuned mode, it could hit 99.4 db @ 18 Hz, and 95 db @ 16 Hz..... WOW this is impressive!!!! :eek:

Not to mention the very linear FR from 14 Hz and up within +- 1.75 db, but still we have not the MK3 FR GP tested (I don't say it should be a bad one either, but up to now I have seen no GP tests for it!).

IMO, the 12+ is one of SVS best subs (I prefer it to the plus 2), and it should be treated with caution when comparing it to the VT3 MK3. If I was about to chose one sub, I would definitely go for the 12 plus!!

Blaser

Cshang,

According to tests of the Pb12+ from Ed Mullen, it is a beast of a subwoofer. The VT3MK3 put 112 db @ 20 Hz in room...this is very good. But also, the Pb12+ put 101.3 db, 10.4% THD 2m Gp , which would easily lead in a moderately sized room with corner placement to 113-115 db (boundry gain + LF gain).

Moreover, in the 16Hz tuned mode, it could hit 99.4 db @ 18 Hz, and 95 db @ 16 Hz..... WOW this is impressive!!!! :eek:

Not to mention the very linear FR from 14 Hz and up within +- 1.75 db, but still we have not the MK3 FR GP tested (I don't say it should be a bad one either, but up to now I have seen no GP tests for it!).

IMO, the 12+ is one of SVS best subs (I prefer it to the plus 2), and it should be treated with caution when comparing it to the VT3 MK3. If I was about to chose one sub, I would definitely go for the 12 plus!!

Blaser

This is the problem with comparing results from one reviewer to another.

Ilkka measured 94 dB @ 20 Hz from the Plus/2 with 9% THD with the Plus/2 in its 20 port, 20 Hz tuning. This means two drivers and 2 x 4 inch ports, plus a more powerful amp than the single plus driver unit.

Ed Mullen measured 101.3 dB from the Plus with 10.3 % THD with the Plus in its 20 Hz tune.

In other words, Ed measured the same output @ 20 Hz for a single Plus as Dual Plus/2's would have done in Ilkka's testing.

If I had made this claim, imagine the out cry. ;)

It is not a sound idea to take the results from one reviewer and use them for another reviewer.

The hump is really not an issue, so I think it is best to get over it. If examined carefully the HSU charts appear to have a hump in the 60s. So don't get carried away with the hump.
I would pay more attention to THD, group delay, impulse response and other parameters in making a final decision rather than the razor flat frequency response. A small bit of EQ or lower tuning points will easily fix the hump if used over a wider band and with a small dip in your PEQ. Please feel free to post your thoughts in that thread.
Thanks,
-Jai
That's interesting but your views don't jive with years of research at the NRC about the overriding importance of linear frequency response compared to the other parameters you mentioned. A humped frequency response means a worse sounding subwoofer than one with better FR. One that starts declining sharply at 40hz will not be as detailed or aticulate as one like the Hsu 3.2 that has moderately declining output from 60hz. Equalization is a last resort fix to a problem the sub should not have since it can create other problems with ringing or group delay. I have three equalizers and I use them sparingly.

Then again if max SPL is what turns your crank and not sound quality it follows why people ignore the humped FR issue. Personally, I will not buy a sub with that kind of FR curve because it will not reproduce bass well. Don't want to offend your purchase decision but, the Plus/2 is one of the worst sounding subs in the SVS lineup. Its at the bottom of my list primarily for that reason. In a way its the classic SVS sub: all boom and no sutlety or dynamics.

It is not a sound idea to take the results from one reviewer and use them for another reviewer.

On that note, Blaser should go back to HQ and take a refresher in basic guerrilla marketing training then come back to this thread and try again using another pseudonym. :D :rolleyes:

I had them as equal, you are correct. What changed my opinion was comparing the two subs with this track last week. The first tune in the studio session 1 is "Kind Hearted Woman Blues". Before they begin the tune, Nathan East is plucking a very crisp riff on his bass guitar for about 20 seconds. This track is now one of my new bass reference tests. I'd now give the nod to the HO which reproduced it audibly more detailed and tighter. The Ultra was not as articulate and sounded smeared in comparison much to my surprise. Both the HO and the Ultra sounded much better than the Plus/2 which had a sloppier sound in comparison .

The whole DVD is very well recorded and a must for anyone with a taste for the Blues. :cool:

Jakeman, These are interesting results. What tune was the Ultra set at and is it an Ultra or Ultra/2?

I tried all the tunes. The best FR comes in 12hz tune but it does compromise SPL by a large amount. I've found 16hz tune as the best overall with the Ultra. 20hz tune has the most output but also the most uneven FR so I don't use it in that tune. This sub has been around for a while and by what has been reported the new Ultra will have much better response than the current version.

It was only a matter of time before a new kid on the block like the Hsu HO set a new standard. The HO belongs to a friend of mine and it was good to spend more time with it. If I was starting my sub collection today that one would be my first purchase. It is one of the most balanced designs I've seen.

Where I liked to use the Ultra is as part of a multiple sub setup with a pair of EP600s with the Ultra providing deep bass from 10- 40hz in 12hz tune . It performs very well that way and have never experienced bottoming or audible compression.

Having just picked up a DD-18 I'm rethinking just how to set up my subs or whether its time to sell a few.

That's interesting but your views don't jive with years of research at the NRC about the overriding importance of linear frequency response compared to the other parameters you mentioned. A humped frequency response means a worse sounding subwoofer than one with better FR. One that starts declining sharply at 40hz will not be as detailed or aticulate as one like the Hsu 3.2 that has moderately declining output from 60hz. Equalization is a last resort fix to a problem the sub should not have since it can create other problems with ringing or group delay. I have three equalizers and I use them sparingly.

Then again if max SPL is what turns your crank and not sound quality it follows why people ignore the humped FR issue. Personally, I will not buy a sub with that kind of FR curve because it will not reproduce bass well. Don't want to offend your purchase decision but, the Plus/2 is one of the worst sounding subs in the SVS lineup. Its at the bottom of my list primarily for that reason. In a way its the classic SVS sub: all boom and no sutlety or dynamics.
My views here are completely data driven based on measurments (not mine but Ilkka's). All that I am doing is pointing you to numbers and charts. You should not conclude that my views don't corraborate with research on the importance of linear FR. It is orthogonal to this discussion.
There is about 5dB decline from 40Hz to 80Hz for the Plus/2. Now note that it climbed a few dB to get to a point from where it had to decline. From 20 to 50Hz, the HSU also made a climb of about 5dB. From 60Hz to 80Hz, the Plus/2 and the HSU 3.2, almost overlap. The HSU has a small boost at 55 to 60Hz, the Plus/2 has a larger boost at 30 to 40Hz. In fact, the Plus/2 matches the $8+K genelec sub's FR more closely than the HSU visually. A regression analysis between basline linear, the HSU line, the SVS line and the genelec will show hat I mean but will not be understood by many here. So simply looking at the charts I posted will give more insight. I would recommend removing your biases and looking at the data objectively. If I had not done that, I would have ended up ignoring some important points that you made about sound quality of the HSU. I can see why it would be better as I studied the other charts carefully. IMO, the reason why the 3.2 is more accurate and would have sounded better is primarily because of the group delay and impulse response. It is not due to the so called hump issue. Basing your decision on the FR alone and dumping a sub because of that especially when it is minor is not smart my friend.

This is the problem with comparing results from one reviewer to another.

Ilkka measured 94 dB @ 20 Hz from the Plus/2 with 9% THD with the Plus/2 in its 20 port, 20 Hz tuning. This means two drivers and 2 x 4 inch ports, plus a more powerful amp than the single plus driver unit.

Ed Mullen measured 101.3 dB from the Plus with 10.3 % THD with the Plus in its 20 Hz tune.

In other words, Ed measured the same output @ 20 Hz for a single Plus as Dual Plus/2's would have done in Ilkka's testing.

If I had made this claim, imagine the out cry. ;)

It is not a sound idea to take the results from one reviewer and use them for another reviewer.
Craig,
Unless I misread Ilkka's data, he measured 99dB @20Hz (just before compression) and 101dB max for the 12.3 driver. Please see the charts I posted in the "Multiple subs" thread. Are you looking at the 12.1 data?

Craig,
Unless I misread Ilkka's data, he measured 99dB @20Hz (just before compression) and 101dB max for the 12.3 driver. Please see the charts I posted in the "Multiple subs" thread. Are you looking at the 12.1 data?

You need to look at the THD figures, too. If you look at the "green line", you will see that the 94 dB @ 20 Hz is @ 9% THD. The next step up is (from memory) 98 dB @ 15% THD.

..research at the NRC about the overriding importance of linear frequency response compared to the other parameters you mentioned
Can you point me to this article?
Thanks,
-Jai

On that note, Blaser should go back to HQ and take a refresher in basic guerrilla marketing training then come back to this thread and try again using another pseudonym. :D :rolleyes:

I think we all should respect one another even if opinoins are not the same, and you Jakeman should not begin your childish attitude, You have to learn how to listen to others even if what they say is not right for you and not only offend people :mad:

If you read my previous posts, I said I will go for dual HOs.... And pls stop offending people who find other than HSU products good products also.

I think you should go back to HQ and take a refresher in basic guerrilla marketing training then come back to this thread and try again using another pseudonym. :rolleyes:

Then again if max SPL is what turns your crank and not sound quality it follows why people ignore the humped FR issue. Personally, I will not buy a sub with that kind of FR curve because it will not reproduce bass well. Don't want to offend your purchase decision but, the Plus/2 is one of the worst sounding subs in the SVS lineup. Its at the bottom of my list primarily for that reason. In a way its the classic SVS sub: all boom and no sutlety or dynamics.
Again you are coming to wrong conclusions here. For music (I mean when I really sit down, listen and relish), I don't use subwoofers ;).... and I bypass all external crossovers, and I try and bypass solid state devices as much as I can and I use only 2 full range speakers. So that should tell you where I come from.
The only exception to the above is when I listen to pipe organ music or multi-channel audio (SACD). My mains simply cannot handle the pipe organ tones. The give up at 25Hz.
I know what you mean by dynamics since I own a Danley DTS-20. Musicality is unmatched. Not even the sealed Velo HGS18 series II would come close. Lighten up buddy about SVS. You are going to start getting ulcers, so take it easy. I am not buying an SVS sub right away if that makes you feel better.

Blaser. As you can appreciate these AVS threads like the Audioholics threads have been deliberately targeted for disruption and promotion by unscrupulous posters working for one sub manufacturer. It is my sincere hope that such desceptive practices have ceased but time will tell. Note that several people made the same observation to me via PM. The nature of your previous post certainly came across as typical of what we have seen here by that gang for some time. Blaser if you are not a part of the guerrilla marketing team then please accept my apology. :)

Also keep in mind that I do not own Hsu subs. I have SVS, Velodyne, Axiom and Yamaha subs. My comments reflect my current views of how these subs compare and are my own interpretations of objective and subjective data. Yes the Hsu subs are looking good.

Lighten up buddy about SVS. You are going to start getting ulcers, so take it easy. I am not buying an SVS sub right away if that makes you feel better.

Thanks for that comment! The bashing is REALLY getting old. If you don't like brand X don't buy it, but don't bash everyone else that does not agree. The guerilla marketing claims are old hat, we've all been there done that.

Again you are coming to wrong conclusions here. For music (I mean when I really sit down, listen and relish), I don't use subwoofers ;).... and I bypass all external crossovers, and I try and bypass solid state devices as much as I can and I use only 2 full range speakers. So that should tell you where I come from.
The only exception to the above is when I listen to pipe organ music or multi-channel audio (SACD). My mains simply cannot handle the pipe organ tones. The give up at 25Hz.
I know what you mean by dynamics since I own a Danley DTS-20. Musicality is unmatched. Not even the sealed Velo HGS18 series II would come close. Lighten up buddy about SVS. You are going to start getting ulcers, so take it easy. I am not buying an SVS sub right away if that makes you feel better.

Well that is good to know and I follow much the same practice with dedicated HT and music listening in separate rooms. I use large totem floorstanders with 15hz extension so I don't need any subs with organ. I haven't heard the DTS-20 but the reports are consistent about the excellent dynamics.

I'm not suggesting you are guilty of this but much of the stuff and reports about SVS subs have been overhyped and doesn't stand up under close scrutiny or in listening tests, but it has been getting better . Not bashing just calling it the way it is based on my experience with many of those products. By the way, teenagers can give you ulcers not subs. :D

Great thread...I can't believe there's over 30 pages. I stopped at page 15 and don't think i can read anymore! lol.

Anyways, I'm am in the market for a new sub and am considering the B&W ASW825 or even ASW855 to match my 800 series setup. These subs have Rohacel for cones and over +1000 watts RMS and i would be interested to see how they fair up.

How would they perform against the Velodyne DD series or even the newer JL Audio Fathoms in raw SPL output and musicality?

I'm surprised no one has mentioned B&W subs! Has anyone heard these subs?

I know this is really a DIY subject. However, the DIYs are certainly not the authorities on ready made.

Where does this august group think the Rythmik Servo subs, 12 inch sealed, 12 inch ported and 15 inch sealed might fall in the rankings?

This is the problem with comparing results from one reviewer to another.

Ilkka measured 94 dB @ 20 Hz from the Plus/2 with 9% THD with the Plus/2 in its 20 port, 20 Hz tuning. This means two drivers and 2 x 4 inch ports, plus a more powerful amp than the single plus driver unit.

Ed Mullen measured 101.3 dB from the Plus with 10.3 % THD with the Plus in its 20 Hz tune.

In other words, Ed measured the same output @ 20 Hz for a single Plus as Dual Plus/2's would have done in Ilkka's testing.

If I had made this claim, imagine the out cry. ;)

It is not a sound idea to take the results from one reviewer and use them for another reviewer.

Craigsub,

I thank you for your useful comment on my post. While you are right different tests at different time for 2 different subs reviewed by 2 different reviewers, should not be directly compared, there should be some kind of a logical link (with some tolerance I admit). Otherwise I see is no meaning to reading any review neither from Illka nor from Ed or A/V talk!!

While I am not neither a professional (I can be wrong, that's not impossible) nor a fan of either subwoofer brand, I just want to give objectively some comments.

Let's look further at the results from Illka. At 50 Hz he measured approx 111 db with 4% THD (20 Hz tune) while ED measured 107.2 db at 3.8 THD, now everybody will agree that this is logic….. Anyway that's not the point as you may find other points which will not be so logic (compared to one another) in the measurements..

As you well know: no. of drivers and amplifier power is of paramount importance for SPL well above the tuning point, but when it comes to near tuning frequencies other parameters are more important.

These parameters mainly are:

1- Enclosure volume to driver size / no. of drivers ratio (LF efficiency / unit power)
2- Port area
3- Natural box Tuning frequency.

As you see, criteria no. 1 is amply an advantage for the Plus over the Plus 2. Item no. 2 is very close (2*4" ports vs 3 *3" ports). And last point is again advantageous to the Plus.
This said, I am not surprised the HO or even the VTF3MK3 will hit deeper than the Plus2, even if they have much less power, less no. of drivers, but same port area more enclosure volume/driver, lower tuming frequency. But the Plus two should be stronger above 25-30 Hz, you can see it at 50 Hz in one scene you posted before….

So why are you surprised the Pb12+ is stronger than the plus/2 below 20-25 Hz?? The Plus/2 is stronger than the Plus anywhere but below 25Hz…. This is well known by owners of both subs!

Does this mean the Plus is better than the plus/2? No. Does it mean it is better than HSU? No. But indeed in the 16Hz Tune it will outdo the Plus 2 in very low frequencies.

Many forum members have indicated they find the sound of the Plus more accurate (maybe due to group delay being pushed below hearing limit) and deeper than the Plus/2 (for the above reasons maybe)….

Anyone that has a subjective comment is invited to give his kind opinion. If Ed Mullen could shime in and give us his opinion it would be great!!

Also, I need an advise from people who have dual HSU concerning other than collocated placement. Do you have any phase cancellation problems as I think the HOs only have a 0-180 phase switch…. Pls advise

Blaser

Well that is good to know and I follow much the same practice with dedicated HT and music listening in separate rooms. I use large totem floorstanders with 15hz extension so I don't need any subs with organ. I haven't heard the DTS-20 but the reports are consistent about the excellent dynamics.

I'm not suggesting you are guilty of this but much of the stuff and reports about SVS subs have been overhyped and doesn't stand up under close scrutiny or in listening tests, but it has been getting better . Not bashing just calling it the way it is based on my experience with many of those products. By the way, teenagers can give you ulcers not subs. :D
Yeah, the DTS-20 is one of the best sounding subs I have ever heard. However my sub did not deliver the expected SPL and was bottoming out in my large room. I would say it was performing at 95% of it's capability. Mike and Ivan at Danley labs are looking at it now. Talk about FR, standing up it had a great response and laying flat on the side it didn't have a good response in my room. This has affected my decision and I will be selling it straight from Danley labs. The change in response was dramatic, not as subtle as what you and I have been debating about on the SVS. Unfortunately standing up it is intimidating in our family room and has poor WAF that way. Pity, I won't even know how it sounds "full potential" if I sell it right away.
Just for the record, I have have no affiliations with SVS. I do like their subs. Also hyping their subs is not going to help me anyway. I am with you in that I hate hype and when I find it, I try my best to crush it. I am glad I don't have teenagers :eek: , they do give me ulcers on the road though :).
Take it easy. You have some great points and we will keep this forum a science forum and I am with you on the "War On Hype".
Regards,
-Jai

...The bashing is REALLY get old. If you don't like brand X don't buy it, but don't bash everyone else that does not agree. The guerilla marketing claims are old hat, we've all been there done that.
Amen! :cool:

Blaser ... I posted what I did as a response to your post regarding the output @ 20 Hz on the Plus in Ed's review of the Plus to Ferstler's 112 dB @ 20 Hz in room for the VTF-3.3.

Your speculation that the the PB12-Plus " would easily lead in a moderately sized room with corner placement to 113-115 db (boundary gain + LF gain)." is based on ... nothing other than your own speculation. There is nothing wrong with your wanting to speculate. Ferstler also measures at 17 feet. On what data or theory do you base the idea that a subwoofer measured 101 dB @ 6.6 feet groundplane would yield 113-115 dB in Ferstler's room @ 17 feet ? I am not trying to be mean here, just trying to keep the conversation realistic for everyone.


As for AVTalk's, Ilkka's, Ed's and my own GP sessions ... each is only useful for direct comparisons to other units we have measured. To use data from any of us as a correlation to another's data is going to be inaccurate.

Blaser. As you can appreciate these AVS threads like the Audioholics threads have been deliberately targeted for disruption and promotion by unscrupulous posters working for one sub manufacturer. It is my sincere hope that such desceptive practices have ceased but time will tell. Note that several people made the same observation to me via PM. The nature of your previous post certainly came across as typical of what we have seen here by that gang for some time. Blaser if you are not a part of the guerrilla marketing team then please accept my apology. :)

Also keep in mind that I do not own Hsu subs. I have SVS, Velodyne, Axiom and Yamaha subs. My comments reflect my current views of how these subs compare and are my own interpretations of objective and subjective data. Yes the Hsu subs are looking good.

Jakeman,

It is OK!! I apologize too. I shouldn't have pushed it so far. FYI, I neither own an SVS nor a Velodyne nor an HSU, I have a Jamo X8 sub (very bad one, tuned 40 Hz, a boom box, It has 2 porst and I have plugged one with a piece of close to tune it 28 Hz :D , still bad but better) and I will most propably purshase dual HOs.

But what bothered me is that I noted that when anyone says HSU is good, everybody applauds, but if ever anyone dared to say SVS is good.... So he becomes an SVS fan and marketting rep or whatsoever.

I would like discussion to be objective, without being influenced by whatsoever. But just speak results as they are with no personal preference.

Thanks and sorry again! :)

Jakeman,
But what bothered me is that I noted that when anyone says HSU is good, everybody applauds, but if ever anyone dared to say SVS is good.... So he becomes an SVS fan and marketting rep or whatsoever.

I would like discussion to be objective, without being influenced by whatsoever. But just speak results as they are with no personal preference.

Thanks and sorry again! :)

Well said ... Most guys who report on his SVS sub and loving it are just that: guys that love the sub.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t130/VinylSpinner/P1010004.jpg

HSU 3.2 Non Native Position – True measurements and SQ applicable only to ones space….no? Measurements elsewhere regardless who measures, are generally always maximum output and extension – once this is established and accepted, it’s up to individual to provide the treated space, measuring devices, EQ, and all required tweaks to achieving maximum quality sound - The basics never change!

Too many pages! Keeps the enthusiasts occupied; after all, what are they….busy? :D

Blaser ... I posted what I did as a response to your post regarding the output @ 20 Hz on the Plus in Ed's review of the Plus to Ferstler's 112 dB @ 20 Hz in room for the VTF-3.3.

Your speculation that the the PB12-Plus " would easily lead in a moderately sized room with corner placement to 113-115 db (boundary gain + LF gain)." is based on ... nothing other than your own speculation. There is nothing wrong with your wanting to speculate. Ferstler also measures at 17 feet. On what data or theory do you base the idea that a subwoofer measured 101 dB @ 6.6 feet groundplane would yield 113-115 dB in Ferstler's room @ 17 feet ? I am not trying to be mean here, just trying to keep the conversation realistic for everyone.


As for AVTalk's, Ilkka's, Ed's and my own GP sessions ... each is only useful for direct comparisons to other units we have measured. To use data from any of us as a correlation to another's data is going to be inaccurate.

OK Craig, you're right! I am only speculating! But is corner placement yielding up to 10 - 12 db compared to GP measurements uncommon? Also is a theoretical 12 db/octave below 30 Hz room gain not known to all for small rooms?

I never said 113-115 db in Festler's room even I admit when I re-read my post it could mean so :rolleyes: .

Anybody guys here has the Pb 12 Plus could give us comments.

I would like discussion to be objective, without being influenced by whatsoever. But just speak results as they are with no personal preference.



Wise words Blaser. And I believe most people try to adhere to it. Sometimes discussions go astray when people don't care for other viewpoints or ignore new data or don't want to read constructive criticism. As you suggest its best to try and stay objective. ;)

Blaser,

you own the 3.3 and svs or just the svs?

None of them unfortunately!

If you want sloppy, loose, low morals and a mid-bass hump buy a SVS sub, if you are looking for a tight performer with honest, straight linear output go for the current HSU offerings. :D
Robert Harley on the JL Audio F113 on the February issue of the Perfect Vision mag: "The Fathom makes other subs sound loose and sloppy by contrast." :D

http://www.avguide.com/the-perfect-vision

Darn. I was hoping to patent that expression. :D

HOLY CRAP.....I have to find out what the Freq is for that ending scene in Pulse...

From about 1:12:00 until about 1:18:00 The bass in that scene.....UNREAL My PB-12NSD was CHUFFiNG like crazy.....That massive LOW bass beat has to be around the 18hz tuning point....

I have the sub dialed in about 3db hot over the mains (at Reference -0db)......the Receiver was at -8db during movie playback...

(When I say 3db hot, thats from the listening position)

Before you say..."why the hell are you posting this here" Just listen....I figured this would be a good scene for people to put on and report back on their thoughts....

The only way I could get my PB-12NSD to stop the annoying air chuffing sound was to turn the SW to -10 on the reciever (down from -2db where it usually is). At -10 the CHUFFFFF was going..........but then so was the IMPACT from the bass really...

HOLY CRAP.....I have to find out what the Freq is for that ending scene in Pulse...

From about 1:12:00 until about 1:18:00 The bass in that scene.....UNREAL My PB-12NSD was CHUFFiNG like crazy.....That massive LOW bass beat has to be around the 18hz tuning point....

I have the sub dialed in about 3db hot over the mains (at Reference -0db)......the Receiver was at -8db during movie playback...

(When I say 3db hot, thats from the listening position)

Before you say..."why the hell are you posting this here" Just listen....I figured this would be a good scene for people to put on and report back on their thoughts....

The only way I could get my PB-12NSD to stop the annoying air chuffing sound was to turn the SW to -10 on the reciever (down from -2db where it usually is). At -10 the CHUFFFFF was going..........but then so was the IMPACT from the bass really...

Thanks for the heads-up on this scene bgillyjcu. This is why the dual 4" ports on some of the other SVS models and on my HSU VTF3.3 w/Turbo really make a difference. That movie sure got crap reiews but I may snag a rental to see what you were hearing on that section.

HOLY CRAP.....I have to find out what the Freq is for that ending scene in Pulse...

From about 1:12:00 until about 1:18:00 The bass in that scene.....UNREAL My PB-12NSD was CHUFFiNG like crazy.....That massive LOW bass beat has to be around the 18hz tuning point....

I have the sub dialed in about 3db hot over the mains (at Reference -0db)......the Receiver was at -8db during movie playback...

(When I say 3db hot, thats from the listening position)

Before you say..."why the hell are you posting this here" Just listen....I figured this would be a good scene for people to put on and report back on their thoughts....

The only way I could get my PB-12NSD to stop the annoying air chuffing sound was to turn the SW to -10 on the reciever (down from -2db where it usually is). At -10 the CHUFFFFF was going..........but then so was the IMPACT from the bass really..

My VTF-3 HO handled this scene with no problem. I doubt that it's as low as 18hz...but nonetheless it's some serious and sustained base!

I just ordered a BIC-H100 subwoofer, to see how it matches up with the other subs in this test.

hey craig, since you have the budget and all ...

maybe you can include the Yamaha YST-SW1500 in your shootout (for the good of everyone curious) :)

Darn. I was hoping to patent that expression. :D
When I first logged in this morning, I thought this was going to be 'Pick on jakeman day'. Then I had to fly to Portland , OR. I get to my hotel, log on and see everyone is making nice-nice. Damn.

I was going to say, John, you are starting to sound like another forum member named John (Larson). With the exceptions that you actually make a point and you know how to use the spell checker. Since everyone has kissed and made up, I will have to save that for another day. :p :)

I did a search on Guerilla Marketing (your favorite term nowadays) and came up with this at Wikipedia:

Guerrilla marketing, as described by ***********in his popular 1982 book *********, is an unconventional way of performing promotional activities on a very low budget. Such promotions are sometimes designed so that the target audience is left unaware they have been marketed to and may therefore be a form of undercover marketing (also called stealth marketing). The ethics of guerilla marketing have often been called into question due to the often deceptive, misleading, or subtle nature of the campaigns.

It is up to the guerrilla marketer to be creative and devise unconventional methods of promotion. The marketer must use all of his or her contacts, both professional and personal, and must examine his company and its products, looking for sources of publicity. Many forms of publicity can be very inexpensive, others are free.

It is argued that when implementing guerrilla marketing tactics, small size is an advantage. Small businesses, according to this argument, are able to obtain publicity more easily than large companies; they are closer to their customers and considerably more agile.

Yet ultimately, according to ********, the Guerrilla Marketer must "deliver the goods". In ******************, he states: "In order to sell a product or a service, a company must establish a relationship with the customer. It must build trust and rapport. It must understand the customer's needs, and it must provide a product that delivers the promised benefits."

********* identifies the following principles as the foundation of guerrilla marketing:

Guerrilla Marketing is specifically geared for the small business.
It should be based on human psychology instead of experience, judgment, and guesswork.
Instead of money, the primary investments of marketing should be time, energy, and imagination.
The primary statistic to measure your business is the amount of profits, not sales.
The marketer should also concentrate on how many new relationships are made each month.
Create a standard of excellence with an acute focus instead of trying to diversify by offering allied products and services.
Instead of concentrating on getting new customers, aim for more referrals, more transactions with existing customers, and larger transactions.
Forget about the competition and concentrate more on cooperating with other businesses.
Guerrilla Marketers should always use a combination of marketing methods for a campaign.
Use current technology as a tool to empower your marketing.

While many of these are viable today, Guerrilla Marketing has gone mainstream. It is no longer simply the weapon of the small business and in fact, fortune 500 companies are jumping into the fray in increasing numbers. ********************* have all done noted guerrilla marketing campaigns.

I replaced proper names and titles with ****.

John, take note of the words I put in bold text. It almost makes your GM comments appear to be compliments. On the other hand, maybe your comments about SVS is an unusual form of GM. :)

BTW, I have made recommendations for SVS, HSU, ACI, AV123, and Velo and none of these companies have asked me to or given me any form of compensation. :mad:

I just ordered a BIC-H100 subwoofer, to see how it matches up with the other subs in this test.
:cool: IIRC, you have access to an STF-1. Maybe you could rate it at the same time.

:cool: IIRC, you have access to an STF-1. Maybe you could rate it at the same time.

OoOoh Ooh! And the UFW-10. Just because I own it. :p

(edit - this was meant to be funny, because of all the requests...)

Hey Randy. Nice thoughtprovoking post as usual from you. I thought I'd be the only one to make the connection with Levinson's groundbreaking book from 1982. From my vantage point, the goings on have been textbook Levinson for some time. As he points out the difference between lack of transparency and ethical behaviour is a fine one because many novices underestimate the power of peer pressure in their purchase decisions. A long time ago in a place far away, I actually wrote a paper on the subject before it was coined guerrilla marketing. Its controversial stuff whether you practice it or report it. I haven't been the only one to notice it at these forums for quite some time. Like most people I tolerated it while trying to bring some balance to the guerrilla tactics.

You were right to point out that guerrilla marketing breaks down if the marketer cannot deliver on the promises and product quality. As long as the quality remains high it perpetuates and vindicates the guerrilla marketing. The more important highlight in what you posted though should have been"...The ethics of guerilla marketing have often been called into question due to the often deceptive, misleading, or subtle nature of the campaigns. Left unchecked the marketer will continue the guerrilla marketing until either competition brings in superior products or the marketing practices are exposed and the ethical question becomes the dominant factor not product quality. Exposure usually leads to an end of guerrilla marketing techniques.

John, take note of the words I put in bold text. It almost makes your GM comments appear to be compliments. On the other hand, maybe your comments about SVS is an unusual form of GM. I take note of the irony in what you are saying but I sincerely hope what comes out of this is an end to the guerrilla marketing (which is always denied by the marketer) and a renewed focus on competing through product quality and innovation. The greater irony here is that this company's products were of sufficiently high quality that guerrilla marketing was probably not necessary. When people I have dealt with over the years have suggested guerrilla marketing, I have usually discouraged it on ethical grounds but then again I have been accused about being too old fashioned about such things. These forums and especially AVS are terrific because they also places where honest opinions and transparency can prevail.

By the way you shouldn't insult John Larsen by comparing him to me. :D ;)

You need to read this.....
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/VTF_3MK3SensibleSoundReviewJanFeb2007.pdf

Sound quality over loudness, but the VTF-3MK3 will give you both if you are comparing to the PB12+....and they are in stock right now.
I guess I should compare the VT3 HO to the Svs Plus power wise. HSU is still le$$. The Svs just looks better in finish.

I must say I found your post "thought provoking" as well.


I did a search on Guerilla Marketing (your favorite term nowadays) and came up with this at Wikipedia:


Isn’t the Internet great! All you have to do is search a term and voilà! you’re an expert. No need to read the book, just copy paste and instant credibility.

BTW, I have made recommendations for SVS, HSU, ACI, AV123, and Velo and none of these companies have asked me to or given me any form of compensation. :mad:

I didn’t know you had owned all of those subwoofers Randy, you didn’t mention it to me when you were here for the DD-18/F113 listening session. I think it’s great that you are using your personal experience with these products to help others.

Blaser,

If you own neither sub, how can you so blatantly endorse one over the other????

I know it kinda sucks to be schooled on this forum, but let the big boys dole out the real advice.

I just ordered a BIC-H100 subwoofer, to see how it matches up with the other subs in this test.

Very good move Craig! Time to see where this inexpensive sub fits. Good to see so many interested by your tests,I wish I had the time(and was less lazy) to make tests. :p

Great to have heavy hitters from JL,SVS and Velodyne but it is always good to see what the low budget sub can provide.As the best bang for the buck is always found under $500.

But what bothered me is that I noted that when anyone says HSU is good, everybody applauds, but if ever anyone dared to say SVS is good.... So he becomes an SVS fan and marketting rep or whatsoever.

sad, but true. whether the guerrilla marketing thing is true or not, many people believe it at this point, regardless of how good the product is.

being as cynical as i am, i think that there is at least *some* truth to it. but then i also think we'd be naive to believe that SVS is the only ID company to engage in such practices...these methods seem to be too effective for others not to pick up on it. thus, personally, i'm suspicious of anybody who consistently promotes one brand dogmatically. it is getting harder and harder to be a truly educated consumer. :(

Very good move Craig! Time to see where this inexpensive sub fits. Good to see so many interested by your tests,I wish I had the time(and was less lazy) to make tests. :p

Great to have heavy hitters from JL,SVS and Velodyne but it is always good to see what the low budget sub can provide.As the best bang for the buck is always found under $500.

totally agree...this is the sub that many people go to as a step up from HTIB...i'm very curious to see how it measures up to the rest of the < $500 crowd. looking forward to it. :cool:

sad, but true. whether the guerrilla marketing thing is true or not, many people believe it at this point, regardless of how good the product is.

being as cynical as i am, i think that there is at least *some* truth to it. but then i also think we'd be naive to believe that SVS is the only ID company to engage in such practices...these methods seem to be too effective for others not to pick up on it. thus, personally, i'm suspicious of anybody who consistently promotes one brand dogmatically. it is getting harder and harder to be a truly educated consumer. :(

Excellent point G-star. A healthy scepticism is a good thing which is why its important to do the research and get input and advice from multiple sources. They may have been the most blatant about it but it would be naive to assume they are alone in practicing it. As the methods become too repetitive they become apparent to even the casual observer and lose their effectiveness.

I've always had an interest in this type of marketing mainly from an academic point of view and its been broadening to watch it play out in this lab type environment at AVS and Audioholics for the last couple of years. It would make an insightful case study on the topic.

I must say I found your post "thought provoking" as well.



Isn’t the Internet great! All you have to do is search a term and voilà! you’re an expert. No need to read the book, just copy paste and instant credibility.



I didn’t know you had owned all of those subwoofers Randy, you didn’t mention it to me when you were here for the DD-18/F113 listening session. I think it’s great that you are using your personal experience with these products to help others.
OK, recommend was not the correct word. I have suggested others consider certain subs based on their listening preferences, environment, dominant source material, budget, location options.... I don't believe I have actually told someone to buy a particular product or manufacturer. I have auditioned many subs at B&M stores, but you can also make educated suggestions based on consensus. I have read 1000s of posts and hundreds of pro reviews. I make suggestions based on what I would consider for myself.

And, yes the internet is a wonderful thing. It allows me to do simple look ups for references without having to read a lot of source material. You can also get complimentary and contrary viewpoints presented along side the source.

I did state my source, and my purpose was to show that the term 'Guerilla Marketing' (GM) is not always a derogatory term. Though John is using it in a negative context.

Word of mouth has been use as a marketing strategy for a very long time. It would now be considered a form of GM. So, anyone who says the product they purchased lived up to or exceeded expectations, the company has excellent customer service or technical support are, more than likely, unwitting participants in GM. But, to be effective, a company has to deliver good products and outstanding customer service.

John got my point. I was just unaware he had studied marketing.

Plus, I used smilies. :p

I guess I should compare the VT3 HO to the Svs Plus power wise. HSU is still le$$. The Svs just looks better in finish.
Did you read the article?

Power is just a single component, in itself, it doesn't tell you anything. Why are you stuck on watts rather the overall system?

The PC-Ultra has a 525 watt amp, the Hsu VTF-3MK3 (not the HO) has a 350 watt amp......BUT the Hsu has more output than the SVS.

Did you read the article?

Power is just a single component, in itself, it doesn't tell you anything. Why are you stuck on watts rather the overall system?

The PC-Ultra has a 525 watt amp, the Hsu VTF-3MK3 (not the HO) has a 350 watt amp......BUT the Hsu has more output than the SVS.

At 20hz, yes. But you're right, watts are just a part of the puzzle.

But can anyone explain HOW the difference between the Ultra and the VTF can be so substantial? Even how the VTF can outgun the Ultra at 20hz, because in the mentioned test he was running the VTF in maximum extension mode when it delivered 109db vs 106 for the Ultra. And unless he was running the Ultra in 12hz tune at the time, the Ultra would have MORE port area then the VTF

Ferstler stopped trying to get additional output from the Ultra when he started to hear port or grill noise.

In my main
room, at my usual
measurement location, 17 feet
from the corner-located sub, I
got a maximum reading of 114
clean dB at 31.5 Hz and a
reading of 106 clean dB at 20 Hz.
The unit could go louder at 20
Hz, but there was an increase
in port/grill noise as a result.

Until someone can perform quasi-anechoic testing (which takes any room anomolies out of the question) on both subs at the same time using the exact same methodology, I don't think one can accurately claim that one sub gets "exactly" X more SPL than another at 20hz, etc.

Until someone can perform quasi-anechoic testing (which takes any room anomolies out of the question) on both subs at the same time using the exact same methodology, I don't think one can accurately claim that one sub gets "exactly" X more SPL than another at 20hz, etc.

Even if both subs are used in the same room, in the same location, with the same equipment, set up properly, and measured in the same manner? :rolleyes:

Edit: If you're only talking "exactly" I see your point, but if we're splitting hairs over 1-2dB I stand by my rolled eyes, by which I meant the HF review is probably a good estimate of performance and I wouldn't burn brain cells doubting it :)

Until someone can perform quasi-anechoic testing (which takes any room anomolies out of the question) on both subs at the same time using the exact same methodology, I don't think one can accurately claim that one sub gets "exactly" X more SPL than another at 20hz, etc.
The methodology used by Illkka is as good as it can practically get in terms of real world measurements. Beyond that things get very expensive for measurments and the amount of accuracy you gain will follow the law of diminishing returns. What people are looking for is a ball park. You may also find the thread Gain with multiple subs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=800497&page=1) interesting.
-Jai

Craig, it would be a good time to test the Orb Audio Super 8. it's another small inexpensive sub.

OoOoh Ooh! And the UFW-10. Just because I own it. :p
Touche'! :) I do own an STF-1, but that isn't why I requested it.

I don't need someone else's validation to know it's ideal for my purpose. However, budget subs are a common question in these forums and I've suggested the STF-1 to others in the past. If I learned there is a better choice, I'd quit doing so, unless someone has circumstances almost exactly like mine.

The STF-1 is usually bracketed with the H-100 and X-sub as a prime budget choice (all ~$250 delivered), and I thought it would be useful if the same person rated all three, assuming craigsub could do it with no financial investment. (He's already done the X-sub.)

Actually, if I wanted my primary sub rated, I'd ask for the 16-46 PC-Plus. :p

I'm interested in a comparision of the PB-12plus, 3.3+turbo, HO+turbo, 20-39pc+ and 16-46pc+ (same price basically and probably subs being considered )

I don't think its fair to put the PB-12plus2 in the mix because its price is $1200 and it is running 2 drivers.....but if you think it should be in the mix lets do it :)

I think its clear to all that the 2.3 and the Pb-12nsd are basically a tie....if you go to the 3.3 it has the edge and then even more of an edge with the turbo added...

At 20hz, yes. But you're right, watts are just a part of the puzzle.

But can anyone explain HOW the difference between the Ultra and the VTF can be so substantial? Even how the VTF can outgun the Ultra at 20hz, because in the mentioned test he was running the VTF in maximum extension mode when it delivered 109db vs 106 for the Ultra. And unless he was running the Ultra in 12hz tune at the time, the Ultra would have MORE port area then the VTF


You talk about more port area for the ultra vs the 3.3.....was the 3.3 test done with turbo? I would think that would effect its effective port area as compared to the ultras port area...

on the topic of port area....how does a single 4inch port (like pb-12nsd) compare to a dual 3inch port (like hsu stf-3)

You talk about more port area for the ultra vs the 3.3.....was the 3.3 test done with turbo? I would think that would effect its effective port area as compared to the ultras port area...Nope 109dB@20Hz was without the turbo. With the turbo it measured 112dB@20Hz.

Nope 109dB@20Hz was without the turbo. With the turbo it measured 112dB@20Hz.

And he only stopped at 112db w/Turbo because he said things in his room were shaking too much! Based on HSU's info it is estimated that he could have gone a little further and reached close to 115db.

The beauty of the Turbo is a 16/18hz tune (3HO/3.3) but with two 4" ports open, so port noise is going to be virtually non-existent.

And he only stopped at 112db w/Turbo because he said things in his room were shaking too much! Based on HSU's info it is estimated that he could have gone a little further and reached close to 115db.

The beauty of the Turbo is a 16/18hz tune (3HO/3.3) but with two 4" ports open, so port noise is going to be virtually non-existent.All very good points. I had forgotten that he stopped early. That 3.3 is already one serious sub, but the turbo just makes it a true beast. I wonder how my HO w/Turbo would measure with the XBL2 driver and 500watt amp, possibly 118dB@20Hz?

After watching PULSE last night and hearing a TON of port noise with that 18hz scene that basically lasts about 90seconds....it left me wondering what a 3.3with turbo would do with that same exact scene in my system....

From what I have read (alot in this forum) the 3.3 and HO are pretty darn close and the difference isn't that great....even HSU said the 3.3 is nearly the same....

112db at 20 is LOUD....i cannot imagine 115 or 118...

you really think the HO with Turbo can hit 118 at 20hz???

After watching PULSE last night and hearing a TON of port noise with that 18hz scene that basically lasts about 90seconds....it left me wondering what a 3.3with turbo would do with that same exact scene in my system....

From what I have read (alot in this forum) the 3.3 and HO are pretty darn close and the difference isn't that great....even HSU said the 3.3 is nearly the same....

bgillyjcu, you have me so curious about that scene in Pulse (I saw your other thread with the waterfall graph - WOW!) so I am going to try and pick up a rental of it this afternoon and will report back on the results through my 3.3 w/Turbo.

bgillyjcu, you have me so curious about that scene in Pulse (I saw your other thread with the waterfall graph - WOW!) so I am going to try and pick up a rental of it this afternoon and will report back on the results through my 3.3 w/Turbo.


That would be GREAT! I'd love to hear how your sub did.

A little more information on my set up.....Sub running 3db hot over the mains (mains at 75db)....Master volume was at -8db...

If you can view it at about the same volume we can really get an accurate assessment for discussion.. :D

If the 3.3 with turbo can BELT this scene out with NO port noise at this volume level, you'll have me seriously considering doing something that will dent my credit card...lol

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is why I'd love to have a get together and bring these DVD's and just try them on all of the different subs....I'd be happy to invite anyone over here (cleveland) to test out the PB-12nsd in any scene....bring your lap top, software, and lets graph and analyze the hell of it.... I'd love to do the same thing with all the others subs we talk about daily too!

ps........My real name is BRAD.... bgilly was a nickname in college and JCU is the university I attended, John Carroll, so put the 2 together and BOOM there is my user name......but the real name is Brad :D (figured I could tell you guys since you are like my 2nd family! LOL)

112db at 20 is LOUD....i cannot imagine 115 or 118...

you really think the HO with Turbo can hit 118 at 20hz???It's pure speculation on my part. If the 3.3 can do 115 then I'd guess that the HO w/turbo would do a bit more.

That would be GREAT! I'd love to hear how your sub did.

A little more information on my set up.....Sub running 3db hot over the mains (mains at 75db)....Master volume was at -8db...

If you can view it at about the same volume we can really get an accurate assessment for discussion.. :D



Ok, I'll try to come close to matching the volume you experienced. Since you are calibrated at 75db at master volume 0 and I am calibrated at 85db (Avia), then your -8 listening level would translate to -18 for me (and I also run my sub 3db hot). I sit 9 feet from the sub.

What is your room size? My HT is in a 3400 c.f. room that has a 4' wide opening to another room of 3900 c.f., and open to a stairwell on the other side, so it's not easy to drive. In 5 months I will be moving to a new home with a dedicated 2700 c.f. sealed room so I am greatly looking forward to hearing/feeling the LFE there.

Is it a good movie?

Is it a good movie?

It got horrible reviews. For this experiment I am only going to run through that one scene and not endure the whole thing, unless Brad can convince me it's worth watching in its entirety :)

Does anybody have any info on the new HSU VTF-2HO or old TN-1220HO that is supposed to be brought back into production?

Ok, I'll try to come close to matching the volume you experienced. Since you are calibrated at 75db at master volume 0 and I am calibrated at 85db (Avia), then your -8 listening level would translate to -18 for me (and I also run my sub 3db hot). I sit 9 feet from the sub.



When you use receiver tones, they are recorded at -30 from reference level (105). When you use Avia, they are recorded at -20 from reference level. So -8 is still -8, not -18.


The only thing is, Avia uses "dialnorm," which, like most Dolby Digital DVDs, tells the receiver to reduce the volume by about 3dB. If you calibrate with Avia, then play the receiver tones, they are 3dB low, or 72dB. If you calibrate with receiver tones, then put in Avia at the same volume level, it will be at 88dB, or 3dB louder. DTS doesn't use dialnorm, which is why DTS tracks are usually 3dB louder. So to compensate you can try it at -5 instead of -8 to match his calibration level.

When you use receiver tones, they are recorded at -30 from reference level (105). When you use Avia, they are recorded at -20 from reference level. So -8 is still -8, not -18.


The only thing is, Avia uses "dialnorm," which, like most Dolby Digital DVDs, tells the receiver to reduce the volume by about 3dB. If you calibrate with Avia, then play the receiver tones, they are 3dB low, or 72dB. If you calibrate with receiver tones, then put in Avia at the same volume level, it will be at 88dB, or 3dB louder. DTS doesn't use dialnorm, which is why DTS tracks are usually 3dB louder. So to compensate you can try it at -5 instead of -8 to match his calibration level.

Great info from you cyberbri (as usual :)), thanks!

Well its a BASS HAPPY movie........its not AWFUL.....I watched the entire thing....its only 88min long and there is GOOD BASS in the whole movie.......but NOTHING like CHAPTER 15....

Our rooms are similar in size. 3400, but you have a opening to another large room.

Like mentioned a couple posts up, -8db your yours will be the same as mine, but i was giving it as a ballpark number, if you want to use -10 fine, want to use -5 fine :)

Looking forward to some posts tonight about this (if you have time)

:)

bgillyjcu, you have me so curious about that scene in Pulse (I saw your other thread with the waterfall graph - WOW!) so I am going to try and pick up a rental of it this afternoon and will report back on the results through my 3.3 w/Turbo.


I read somewhere you ALSO have the PB-12nsd...is this true?

what subs do you own?

If you could do a DIRECT comparision of the PB-12 vs the 3.3 with turbo on that Chapter 15 of Pluse I might drive to where you live and buy you a beer!!! LOL


post 1000 :D

Until someone can perform quasi-anechoic testing (which takes any room anomolies out of the question) on both subs at the same time using the exact same methodology, I don't think one can accurately claim that one sub gets "exactly" X more SPL than another at 20hz, etc.

That is an important point to keep in mind when trying to squeak the last few SPLs out of these measurments at certain frequencies for comparative purposes. Outdoor groundplane or 4pi testing is required to give you scientifically accurate results for true output comparisons . Even though great care is taken to place the subs in the exact same spot room boundary reinforcement can skew the results differently based on the anechoic behaviour of the sub in room. That's why its better to step back and consider amplitude across the whole band.

I read somewhere you ALSO have the PB-12nsd...is this true?

what subs do you own?

If you could do a DIRECT comparision of the PB-12 vs the 3.3 with turbo on that Chapter 15 of Pluse I might drive to where you live and buy you a beer!!! LOL


post 1000 :D

Dude, that would be one long drive from Cleveland to Seattle but you are welcome anytime and the beer is on me :D If I recall you are a Guiness drinker...for my tastes there is nothing finer than a black & tan :cool: But if you love a variety of great beers a tour of Northwest microbreweries would certainly be on tap (pun intended) :)

My sub collection is not worth mentioning alongside the likes of Craigsub's or TheEAR's, but I currently have the VTF-3.3 and Turbo unit, PB12-NSD, and (try not to laugh) Athena AS-P300 and AS-P400 sitting in a closet waiting to be eBayed when I get the motivation. Actually, since I only paid around $100 ea. for the Athenas I may end up using one or both in computer and bedroom systems.

Ok, the SVS is upstairs feeling lonely while the HSU has carried the day for the last few weeks in the HT, but I may hook it up again and test each sub on that scene. I am back with the movie in hand so here goes...

P.S. Congrats on the post milestone :D

Man I'd love, and I know everyone else would love, a direct comparision of the 3.3 with turbo and the pb-12nsd on that Pulse scene....

the 18hz signal in the movie is right at the tuning point of the pb-12 so that will be interesting to compare directly with the 3.3 with turbo.. :)

Yep I'm a guinness man :D Hopefully someday I can do a tour of that area of the US....i've never even been west of OHIO....So I have a lot of traveling left to do in my life (I'm only 27 now)

Hi there. I noticed Sunfire subwoofers were absent. Is this because they are lacking in some form or fashion, and if not, where would they likely rank among these contenders?

I went and played around with PULSE some more.....even at the sub running 0db HOT and the master volume at -20 the CHUFFFFFF is still there.....that much 18hz bass just cannot be done by this sub.....

bgillyjcu,
It is time you buy that second one and get that +6dB gain and you will be happy as a clam :)
-Jai

Okay, here is the first post where craigsub started posting the "peak hold" measurements for different subs - these scenes being from WotW. It's near the end of the page, and continues on subsequent pages. This is a good place to read more about what these graphs actually are all about.

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?threadid=15586&perpage=15&pagenumber=60




I was looking back on this and wondering to myself.....the plus/2 was in 20hz mode....how about if you put it in 16hz mode.....how would it compare to those other 3 subs then....(especially on the lightning scene where the HO and DD-18 really take the lead)

bgillyjcu,
It is time you buy that second one and get that +6dB gain and you will be happy as a clam :)
-Jai


Here is my thought though...........is a 2nd one really going to make that 18hz sound BETTER?

THE CHUFFFFFING will still be there, but then I'll have 2 subs chuffing air instead of 1.

Sure everything else will be AMAZING, but I'm that guy that listened to that scene and said....damn, I'm missing something. I know the HO with Turbo and the 3.3 with turbo would shake my house to the point of destruction because they can handle the lower frequency better because of design...(WAY MORE PORT AREA to push all that air) Heck, even a PB-12+ compared to my PB-12nsd would have probably done WAY better just because of the PORT AREA gain in the + series...

I've learned that if you are going to try to get those LOW frequencies you need ALOT of port area, and the single 4inch port in the pb-12nsd just cannot push that much.....
am I making sense?

Blaser,

If you own neither sub, how can you so blatantly endorse one over the other????


Do you think everybody here talking subwoofers need to own them?(of course owning a sub is a plus but not a must). The question was not directed to owners if I remember!!

What is the point in reading reviews? Threads? .... I think you should read audioholics Craigsub thread (from memory if I remember) comparaison between the Ultra and HO, and occasionally data on the plus is entering in the game, it might give you an idea how these subs behave even if you do or don't own them;) .

[/QUOTE]
I know it kinda sucks to be schooled on this forum, but let the big boys dole out the real advice.[/QUOTE]

Now that's not good and aggressive! But I will not reply to these words... Let's keep civilized!

Hi there. I noticed Sunfire subwoofers were absent. Is this because they are lacking in some form or fashion, and if not, where would they likely rank among these contenders?

I can tell you if have a "sub" listed like the Tyke that is not even capable of a solid 30hz output,I doubt any Sunfire would perform less well.In fact the Sunfire EQ and EQ Signature would rank rather well.

Craig should include the Sunfire Sig EQ and EQ as both are popular models.Maybe not on AVS but in general they sell very well.

Good to know. I am curious however, why Sunfire is less popular on these forums. I am assuming it receives the same treatment as Bose speakers (which I don't particularly care for, ; ) )

Here is my thought though...........is a 2nd one really going to make that 18hz sound BETTER?

THE CHUFFFFFING will still be there, but then I'll have 2 subs chuffing air instead of 1.

Sure everything else will be AMAZING, but I'm that guy that listened to that scene and said....damn, I'm missing something. I know the HO with Turbo and the 3.3 with turbo would shake my house to the point of destruction because they can handle the lower frequency better because of design...(WAY MORE PORT AREA to push all that air) Heck, even a PB-12+ compared to my PB-12nsd would have probably done WAY better just because of the PORT AREA gain in the + series...

I've learned that if you are going to try to get those LOW frequencies you need ALOT of port area, and the single 4inch port in the pb-12nsd just cannot push that much.....
am I making sense?

You would be suprised how much of difference two stacked subs make. I would be willing to bet most if not all of chuffing would be gone at the same volume level. A 6db increase is quite a jump...

If you could do a DIRECT comparision of the PB-12 vs the 3.3 with turbo on that Chapter 15 of Pluse...

bgillyjcu, I just finished running Ch. 15 of Pulse (mostly beginning at 1:11:58 and running about 2 minutes) and here are the results. Before each sub configuration (placed in the exact same spot, left front corner 9 feet away) I recalibrated with Avia pink noise so each sub was equal with the mains, not hot, and master volume on all was -5. I could have pushed higher on the volume but at this level my windows and huge wall mirror were already shaking and rattling very loudly and I was fearful of what the neighbors were experiencing and thinking :eek:

I gotta say, YIKES!!! That is some crazy kind of LFE! It is not as impressive nor as satisfying as the bass on many other spectacular demo DVD's we have probably all heard and/or own, but it is pretty unique - a very deep (felt more than heard) repetitive pulse, almost like a heartbeat, that really puts the sub to the test.

---------------------------------------------

VTF-3.3 with Turbo, 18hz tune max extension mode, two 4" ports open
- No port noise heard, lots of throbbing impact that remaind clean and tight, each pulse registered uncorrected 98db on the RS meter with peak near the end of that section at 104db

VTF-3.3 NO Turbo, 18hz tune max extension mode, one 4" port open
- Surprisingly to me, the same results as with Turbo, which indicates to me that I had not yet pushed the volume to a level that was taxing the sub

VTF-3.3 NO Turbo, 22hz tune max output mode, two 4" ports open
- A little less deep extension noticed but the pulses were still there and overall dynamics were greater with a bit more sense of ease and power, with the pulses registering an uncorrected 100db and peak bass at the end close to 106db

PB12-NSD, fixed 18hz tune, one 4" port
- I did not notice any port noise. Even though I recalibrated with Avia just as with each of the other runs, the bass impact was not as great as with the 3.3 and the pulses registered 95db and the peak at 101db. There was a noticeable decrease in mid-bass levels and dynamics compared to the 3.3 runs which made the overall sound with my Ascend speakers seem harsher to my ears. If I were to keep using the PB12NSD I would definitely need two in my large room.

EDIT: Just re-ran the scene through the PB12-NSD and this time put my ear a foot from the port and did finally hear the chuffing, but cannot really notice it from 9ft. away at the listening position due to overall loud room volume and the rattling of everything in it including the walls!

Here is my thought though...........is a 2nd one really going to make that 18hz sound BETTER?

THE CHUFFFFFING will still be there, but then I'll have 2 subs chuffing air instead of 1.

I've learned that if you are going to try to get those LOW frequencies you need ALOT of port area, and the single 4inch port in the pb-12nsd just cannot push that much.....
am I making sense?

Not necessarily, with 2 subs co-located, you will not have to push them as hard to reach the same volume level as one by itself. 1 PB12/nsd's are almost the equivalent of of a Plus/2, and surely outgun a PB12+.

The equivalent of a PB12+ would be 2 PB10's, and that is without co-locating them.

Here is my thought though...........is a 2nd one really going to make that 18hz sound BETTER?

THE CHUFFFFFING will still be there, but then I'll have 2 subs chuffing air instead of 1.

Sure everything else will be AMAZING, but I'm that guy that listened to that scene and said....damn, I'm missing something. I know the HO with Turbo and the 3.3 with turbo would shake my house to the point of destruction because they can handle the lower frequency better because of design...(WAY MORE PORT AREA to push all that air) Heck, even a PB-12+ compared to my PB-12nsd would have probably done WAY better just because of the PORT AREA gain in the + series...

I've learned that if you are going to try to get those LOW frequencies you need ALOT of port area, and the single 4inch port in the pb-12nsd just cannot push that much.....
am I making sense?
I am going to ask you to do some homework :). Check my thread on the multiple sub extrapolation. Use the charts in Ilkka's measurments for the pb-10nsd, and come up with the MaxSPL charts using the methodology I suggested. Make sure you pay attention to the compression charts. The 12NSD would show better there, so you have to make some educated guess or ping Ed. Make some minor adjustments for the additional gain with the PB-12nsd. My guess is that the chuffing will come a lot later.
Good luck,
-Jai

Good to know. I am curious however, why Sunfire is less popular on these forums. I am assuming it receives the same treatment as Bose speakers (which I don't particularly care for, ; ) )

I don't think Sunfire has a rep like Bose - from all I've heard Sunfire makes quality products. They are probably priced towards premium because of build, etc.

I am going to ask you to do some homework :). Check my thread on the multiple sub extrapolation. Use the charts in Ilkka's measurments for the pb-10nsd, and come up with the MaxSPL charts using the methodology I suggested. Make sure you pay attention to the compression charts. The 12NSD would show better there, so you have to make some educated guess or ping Ed. Make some minor adjustments for the additional gain with the PB-12nsd. My guess is that the chuffing will come a lot later.
Good luck,
-Jai


I do not understand your charts.......I have to get more educated on all of this....the compression charts are new to me...

You just have to stare at them for sometime and you will get it. Really they are not as complicated as you think.

---------------------------------------------

VTF-3.3 with Turbo, 18hz tune max extension mode, two 4" ports open
- No port noise heard, lots of throbbing impact that remaind clean and tight, each pulse registered uncorrected 98db on the RS meter with peak near the end of that section at 104db

VTF-3.3 NO Turbo, 18hz tune max extension mode, one 4" port open
- Surprisingly to me, the same results as with Turbo, which indicates to me that I had not yet pushed the volume to a level that was taxing the sub

VTF-3.3 NO Turbo, 22hz tune max output mode, two 4" ports open
- A little less deep extension noticed but the pulses were still there and overall dynamics were greater with a bit more sense of ease and power, with the pulses registering an uncorrected 100db and peak bass at the end close to 106db

PB12-NSD, fixed 18hz tune, one 4" port
- I did not notice any port noise. Even though I recalibrated with Avia just as with each of the other runs, the bass impact was not as great as with the 3.3 and the pulses registered 95db and the peak at 101db. There was a noticeable decrease in mid-bass levels and dynamics compared to the 3.3 runs which made the overall sound with my Ascend speakers seem harsher to my ears. If I were to keep using the PB12NSD I would definitely need two in my large room.

EDIT: Just re-ran the scene through the PB12-NSD and this time put my ear a foot from the port and did finally hear the chuffing, but cannot really notice it from 9ft. away at the listening position due to overall loud room volume and the rattling of everything in it including the walls!


I mean, maybe I am not calibrating and calculating things right.....I am sitting about 9ft away and I can hear the CHUFFING...hmmmm The Sub has 9 gain positions, (the first position being OFF) I had it at 3 and the chuffing was bad, then turned it to 2 and the chuffing died down, but so did the rest of the bass...

Regardless sounds like the turbo was even more impressive and from what you wrote I bet you could have pushed it harder and gotten even more (but we don't want to destroy things)

PLUS it sounds like a single 3.3 with turbo could do the job of maybe 1.5 pb-12nsds....

I mean, maybe I am not calibrating and calculating things right.....I am sitting about 9ft away and I can hear the CHUFFING...hmmmm The Sub has 9 gain positions, (the first position being OFF) I had it at 3 and the chuffing was bad, then turned it to 2 and the chuffing died down, but so did the rest of the bass...

Regardless sounds like the turbo was even more impressive and from what you wrote I bet you could have pushed it harder and gotten even more (but we don't want to destroy things)

I had the gain on the PB12NSD set at the 4th white mark, and I did not notice the chuffing sound until I got real close. Maybe with your particular room coupling you are getting more output at frequencies that are aggravating the port noise? When I calibrated with the RS meter and Avia pink noise the sub was reading 2-3db lower than the mains which makes the sub level actually equal to them after adding in the 2-3 db correction factor for that meter.

Good to know. I am curious however, why Sunfire is less popular on these forums. I am assuming it receives the same treatment as Bose speakers (which I don't particularly care for, ; ) )

Anyone linking Sunfire with Bose is a person who is deaf and lacks a functional brain to ice the package.

Sunfire amps,subs and the newly released micro ribbon tweeter speakers sound amazing for what they are,ultra compact,disapearing units.Bo$e on the other hand is known to have gross colorations,lacks any detail,transparency and use pathetic quality drivers and mediocre built quality and materials.You have to love geting ripped off to like B0$e,even at half price it is still 60% overpriced! And I am generous.

Sunfire's EQ subs compete very well against Velodyne's compact SPL series subs.
I know,I have them(Sunfire and Velodyne).

I mean, maybe I am not calibrating and calculating things right.....I am sitting about 9ft away and I can hear the CHUFFING...hmmmm The Sub has 9 gain positions, (the first position being OFF) I had it at 3 and the chuffing was bad, then turned it to 2 and the chuffing died down, but so did the rest of the bass...

Regardless sounds like the turbo was even more impressive and from what you wrote I bet you could have pushed it harder and gotten even more (but we don't want to destroy things)

PLUS it sounds like a single 3.3 with turbo could do the job of maybe 1.5 pb-12nsds....

bgillyjcu, I just hooked up the VTF3.3 w/turbo again and re-ran the scene, this time listening right next to it, and there was no port noise. My t-shirt collar was flapping against my chest and the sound was deafening being so close. I was still at -5 master volume and really wanted to push it higher but I fear I may have already exceeded my neighbor's patience so will have to try another day when they are not home (their house is 15 feet from mine and on my more enthusiastic HT test runs they actually get shaking and rattling of their own living room walls).

Even if both subs are used in the same room, in the same location, with the same equipment, set up properly, and measured in the same manner?


I hear ya, just saying that the poster was wondering how the Ultra could only do 103db versus 106db for the VTF. Even if the test was performed in the same room with the same equipment, maybe one sub exhibits different behaviour than another in the same spot due to different FR inherent in the subs, is it possible that one sub was "inches" or a foot away from the other that was measured months before? Ferstler himself mentions in the review that he didn't have the VTF cranked as far as it could go for fear of his house imploding :D . Does that mean he possibly did the same with the Ultra and therefore they weren't level matched, etc. Just saying without doing the two subs at the same time it's difficult to say one will perform at X SPL versus another at X SPL. I'm definately not taking anything away from the HSU sub or defending the Ultra. I don't even own a sub at the moment (sold my old Mirage and looking for a new one), I'd have bought the HSU HO ages ago if they had a nicer enclosure. I know I know, it's the guts that count, not what it looks like. At least, that's what I tell my wife when she sees me with my shirt off in the morning! Unfortunately she's not buying into that either!

But then, it occurs to me I really have no idea what I'm talking about half the time when it comes to subs anyhow! :o



Bgilly, I think you reached 1000 posts in this thread alone!! :p

na........probably only 100 ;)

I had the gain on the PB12NSD set at the 4th white mark, and I did not notice the chuffing sound until I got real close. Maybe with your particular room coupling you are getting more output at frequencies that are aggravating the port noise? When I calibrated with the RS meter and Avia pink noise the sub was reading 2-3db lower than the mains which makes the sub level actually equal to them after adding in the 2-3 db correction factor for that meter.

WOW 4th mark.....

Maybe with your particular room coupling you are getting more output at frequencies that are aggravating the port noise?

HOW does that work?? (something new I have to consider now)

WOW 4th mark.....

Maybe with your particular room coupling you are getting more output at frequencies that are aggravating the port noise?

HOW does that work?? (something new I have to consider now)

Now that I've said it I'm not sure it makes sense so just disregard :o Just trying to think of reasons why the port noise seemed much louder/more noticeable with your P12NSD compared to mine. Perhaps all the noise my room and fixtures were generating masked it, or maybe my ears are not as adept at picking it out from 9 ft. away.

i am sitting 9 ft away too

Just REran my test tones. I'm using the INTERNAL test tone from my Pioneer 1014 to calibrate everything. Speakers all dead on at 75db and the sub is set to show 75db on my Radio Shack Digital Level Meter.....75db on that means its really like 77-78db ....

At that setting the reciever SW is at 0db and the SW gain on the amp is on the 2nd notch up from being OFF...so 9 total notches, I'm on notch 3....

I'm starting to wonder if something is wrong here. For you to sit 9 feet away, have your sub basically dialed in the same as me and for you to have to get to 1 foot to hear port chuffing and I can hear it plain as day from 9ft, heck 15ft.....what is up here...

The only ways a room can affect port noise would be if either the room is very large, causing the sub to have to work harder to reach a certain level or if the room acoustics are creating nulls, again causing the sub to have to work harder to reach certain levels at certain frequencies.

i am sitting 9 ft away too

Just REran my test tones. I'm using the INTERNAL test tone from my Pioneer 1014 to calibrate everything. Speakers all dead on at 75db and the sub is set to show 75db on my Radio Shack Digital Level Meter.....75db on that means its really like 77-78db ....

At that setting the reciever SW is at 0db and the SW gain on the amp is on the 2nd notch up from being OFF...so 9 total notches, I'm on notch 3....

I'm starting to wonder if something is wrong here. For you to sit 9 feet away, have your sub basically dialed in the same as me and for you to have to get to 1 foot to hear port chuffing and I can hear it plain as day from 9ft, heck 15ft.....what is up here...

My receiver SW trim was at -5 (range of +/-10) and sub gain control at 4th line so we are actually real close to the same overall calibration level.

When I did get one foot away from the PB12NSD port and finally noticed the chuffing, it was not super loud.

If i have it dialed in at 75db how can it work harder than it is dialed in for? Plus having the gain at the 2nd notch is really LOW....I could see if i had the gain cranked up to half or more....but I'm runnin gain between 1/4 and 1/3...really closer to 1/4

Ross....I'm really confused here.......you and I have the same settings, same set up....what is going on here....HELP ME OUT BOYS :D

Ross....I'm really confused here.......you and I have the same settings, same set up....what is going on here....HELP ME OUT BOYS :D

Craig? Ed? Any ideas why Brad's PB12NSD would produce port chuffing that seems much louder to him than on mine, given similar calibration and playback levels? Perhaps just subjective perception levels from two different listeners, or could it be something mechanical?

Guys ... Without more specific info, telling you why Brad hears noise and Ross does not would be mere speculation. What we would need to do is have a good measurement of the SPL at each of your listening positions. I am pretty certain Brad's is being driven harder.

Brad ... an idea for now, turn your sub so the driver and port face the wall ... leave 4 inches clearance, and see what that does.

Craig? Ed? Any ideas why Brad's PB12NSD would produce port chuffing that seems much louder to him than on mine, given similar calibration and playback levels? Perhaps just subjective perception levels from two different listeners, or could it be something mechanical?
Do you both have the same Pioneer receiver? If not, there's your explanation. Subwoofer out levels can vary a lot from AVR to AVR.

75 dB calibration level doesn't mean a much since your rooms are different.

From my listening position the DEEPEST pulse was recording 95db on the digital meter..... I'm going to go jump in the shower.....let the sub "cool down" and I'll turn it every which way and give an SPL number for us to think about....

Here are my settings again...I'm using the INTERNAL test tone from my Pioneer 1014 to calibrate everything. Speakers all dead on at 75db and the sub is set to show 74-75db on my Radio Shack Digital Level Meter.....74-75db on that meter really means its 77-78db Correct?....

Guys ... Without more specific info, telling you why Brad hears noise and Ross does not would be mere speculation. What we would need to do is have a good measurement of the SPL at each of your listening positions. I am pretty certain Brad's is being driven harder.

Brad ... an idea for now, turn your sub so the driver and port face the wall ... leave 4 inches clearance, and see what that does.

Thanks Craig. Ok, since we both have an RS meter then maybe we can each provide the SPL levels during that scene. I was getting 95db uncorrected on those pulses. Brad, can you have your meter in the listening position and see what you get?

EDIT: Ok, I see you already posted your levels - wow, we were getting identical readings so we really are calibrated similarly.