5. Idea spreads to include refrigerators...

There you go! A How-To idea: How to convert an old fridge into a sub. :cool:

Subfrigerator!

C'mon, BG. You know you want one.

Subfrigerator!

C'mon, BG. You know you want one.


I'M ALL IN! That would be some stone cold bass!!

Subfrigerator!

C'mon, BG. You know you want one.

that puts shivers down my spine :p

Subfrigerator!

And then combine that with this:

Beer throwing fridge (http://www.buzzpatrol.com/videos/beer-throwing-refrigerator/)

Sorry if I missed this, was the Cambridge Soundworks Newton Series P1000 rated? If not where do you think it come out?
Thanks.

SWQIUST... Great Post.. I love my SVS's as well,

REGINALD TRENT..Don't worry yours would have been right up there with the best of them but they were not on his try out list. There are only so many you can do. Some folks won't have any other sub but the tall cylinder type like you. You made a good choice with SVS as well.

Keep it up Craig... I think your doing a great thing here. Can't wait for some of the new subs to come out and see what happens...

Mike L.

Sorry if I missed this, was the Cambridge Soundworks Newton Series P1000 rated? If not where do you think it come out?
Thanks.

Good, Bad ??

Sorry if I missed this, was the Cambridge Soundworks Newton Series P1000 rated? If not where do you think it come out?
Thanks.

Ray - The P1000 was not a part of the test. It was not rated, of course, but that does not mean it isn't a good ... or great ... subwoofer.

Thanks,
I was just curious, I got one from audiogon for $400 delivered to my door and was looking for some reassurances that I did not screw up. This is my first sub, I will be adding it to the Rocket package that I have ordered.

Craigsub or anyone

Any idea how the Triad Platinum 18 inch sub would fare in this contest? The rest of my speakers will be Triad and I am still trying to determine whether I get the Triad or the F113 or for that matter two smaller Triad subs. Any comments would be welcome. I have a 3200cf basement space and will use the speakers about 50/50 for music and movies. The actual listening/viewing area about 2500 cf.

Thanks
Ray

"Any idea how the Triad Platinum 18 inch sub would fare in this contest? "

Why all this speculation? If it was not tested is all speculation. Isn't it? :confused:

Craig,
I have been an absentee in your thread for a while now. BTW, I love my dual f113s and in some way you had an influence in my decision and thank you for the same.
So have you had a chance to check out the submersive? If not, you should contact Mark soon. We would love to hear your take on that sub.
Thanks,
-Jai

Craig,
I have been an absentee in your thread for a while now. BTW, I love my dual f113s and in some way you had an influence in my decision and thank you for the same.
So have you had a chance to check out the submersive? If not, you should contact Mark soon. We would love to hear your take on that sub.
Thanks,
-Jai

Good point..Mark Seaton's SubMersive should get a chance to show its stuff.

Dual f113's are indeed sweet. :)

Anyone who wants to sell subs,you need an outlet or sell them to RSH near my work place,a sure hit.

First off great thread, thanks for all the great info craig. Checking in to see if there was an additional info on budget sub H100?

One of my buddies wants to keep it around $250 and it looks like the BIC H100 and the Rocket X-sub are the contenders. With the current "seat of the pants" reviews giving the BIC the nod for movie-ish duty and the X-sub for music-ish duty.

We got pretty wrapped up in the bookshelf comparison here .... I will get to the H-100 by this weekend. My guess is that the "seat of the pants" reviews are pretty close, though I would take the X-Sub over the H-100 because it does 30 Hz and up better than the H-100 does, and neither can deliver large amounts of 20 Hz bass.

Have you auditioned the dd15? If so, where does it fit in?

Thanks
John

John - I have not tried the DD-15 ... but I would hazard a guess that it would be in line with the Maestro and Fathom 112. It will sound like the DD-18 with a little less output.

I haven't read the original AV123 thread, but I'm curious why none of the SVS cylinder subs made the list. Was it a box sub only comparison?

Halo ... It was more by chance that the cylinders were not here. You can pretty safely gather that any of the NSD driver models, plus models, and Ultra models will perform comparably to each other - whether Box or cylinder.

Craigsub,
How is that mini speaker for dynamics in movies? You are correct that the cylinders sound the same as the box's, I have owned both.

Thanks Craig. I recon it seems the f112, dd15, and maestro(spelling?) are in the same league? Is it fair to say my dec should be made on price of each and weather an eq is included? At first glance-the dd15 seems to be the best "value"?

John

Craig,

What do you think of OutLaw sub?

THX

MKTheater ... The Minis are great for HT as long as you don't try to get high SPL in a room over, say, 4000 cubic feet.

John - The DD-15, depending on the actual paid for price, is a solid value. The Maestro may fare well with its wood finish for some, and the 112 for its size.

All three are going to be very close in performance.

Tuan - I have not tried out the Outlaws, but they certainly seem to be comparable to the similar Hsu products.

Craig,
I am trying to decide between the SVS pb12/Plus2 and the HSU 3.3. Please me understand the ranking and if I will notice a difference. the SVS has a 900w amp with dual 12s on it and the 3.3 has a side firing 12 with a 350w amp. On the ranking, the 3.3 scored higher. I am a bit torn because my wife wants a darker than maple wood grain and I need to justify spending 1500 bucks. So, when you get a chance, please help me understand the value difference between the two and which one in your opinion is the better sub.


Thanks,

If you do a search in this thread, Craig explains why he gave each of these subs the scores they received when he reviewed them. It may help you answer your questions in case Craig doesn't get back to you or if he takes a while to.

Craig,
I have another question. Do you have any idea where the JBL L8400P would fit into this equation?


Thanks,

The VTF 3.3 scored higher primarily because it just plain sounds better. It plays 16 Hz bass with authority, is more percussive whan handling instruments like the kick drum, and is also more linear.

I would not be surprised to find that the new Ultra bests the PB12-Plus/2 as well, for the same reasons.

As far as looks are concerned, I did not take looks into account for any of these tests.

Craigsub

During your testing of the Turbo have you ever hooked it up to a HO and then plugged one port of the Turbo? What was the outcome? What would be the tuning frequency? Etc.

thanx

Thanks craigsub. Are there any horn speakers that you would recommend?

Craig,
I have another question. Do you have any idea where the JBL L8400P would fit into this equation?


Thanks,

No - I have never had one to test, nor even heard one in a store.

Craigsub

During your testing of the Turbo have you ever hooked it up to a HO and then plugged one port of the Turbo? What was the outcome? What would be the tuning frequency? Etc.

thanx

I played around with an HO in this configuration for a while, but could not feel nor hear a difference in the deepest bass vs. running the Turbo with both ports open. If memory serves, the tuning point was 13.5 Hz.

A close-miked FR sweep (meaning the microphone is right in front of the driver) will show the tuning point as a severe drop in the curve.

Thanks craigsub. Are there any horn speakers that you would recommend?

Klipsch Heritage and THX systems for sure ... they are outstanding. Finding reasonably priced (meaning under $3000 per pair), great sounding horn loudspeakers is a difficult task.

I still miss my old Klipsch Belles (circa 2000) ... and still have a pair of 1984 Vintage Cornwalls in our extra garage.

I have even penned a couple of designs for some horn towers that my brother is looking at ... it could be a pseudo DIY project next year.

I played around with an HO in this configuration for a while, but could not feel nor hear a difference in the deepest bass vs. running the Turbo with both ports open. If memory serves, the tuning point was 13.5 Hz.

A close-miked FR sweep (meaning the microphone is right in front of the driver) will show the tuning point as a severe drop in the curve.

Thank You

Craig,

I was wondering what you can tell me about Corner placement and how Home theater people handle that if they have Bass Traps Floor to ceiling in all 4 corners.

1. You can't get the Sub into the full corner
2. does being "close" to the corner still considered "corner placement"
3. does being too close to a 24" corner bass trap defeat the purpose of corner placement due to the sub firing into it.

thank you

Kermie ... As long as you are within 1/2 a wavelength, you will get most of the additional bass from the corner. To be safe, let's call it 3 feet.

When using bass traps, It is still suggested that you experiment with placement, though.

The other thing to remember about corner placement is that the materials of the corner will have a pretty big effect regarding how much reinforcing of bas you will get.

Concrete walls will be about the most "powerful" ... while drywall over 2x4's will be relatively leaky.

Then you have room peaks and nulls from the room dimensions.

It can all get pretty daunting - which is one reason why Poh Ser Hsu recommends nearfield placement when possible.

Hey Craig,
Have you had a chance to audition the Definitive Technology Trinity
Signature Sub?
If not, do you plan to?
If yes, obviously, what did you think?
Can it keep up with the big boys, JL f113, DD-18 and such?

dc

I have not seen any mention of the SVS PB12-NSD/2. There was a brief discussion of stacking two PB12-NSD's, but nothing about this sub with two woofers... I was wondering how this would compare to a HSU VTf 3.3 in music and HT. I have been leaning toward the HSU but am not convinced about the side firing vs down firing for my setup which would require having the sub placed next to my right front speaker and the sub firing to the outside. There are no corners and the room is 20 x 20 x 12h and the seating area is toward the left side of the room.

Dual PB-12NSD stacked offer more INTERNAL volume when compared to a PB-12nsd/2

Thus the increased performace....and the increased size...

The PB-12NSD/2 will give you some very impressive SPL numbers...it is a powerful subwoofer

DUAL PB-12NSD's stacked will sound more like a PB-12PLUS/2...

Craig, have you ever auditioned the Vandersteen subs?

Hey Craig,
Have you had a chance to audition the Definitive Technology Trinity
Signature Sub?
If not, do you plan to?
If yes, obviously, what did you think?
Can it keep up with the big boys, JL f113, DD-18 and such?

dc

I tried contacting a couple of Def Tech's dealers, and they had no clue what the Trinity even was.

Craig, have you ever auditioned the Vandersteen subs?

Briefly in a store - but not with any kind of stringent testing.

[QUOTE=bgillyjcu
The PB-12NSD/2 will give you some very impressive SPL numbers...it is a powerful subwoofer
[/QUOTE]

Any comparison to the VTF 3.3? SVS states that their sub is just as good for music as HT, but from what I have been reading here, the HSU 3.3 has the edge for music. And from what I can tell, the PB-12 NSD/2 has more power for HT...

Any comparison to the VTF 3.3? SVS states that their sub is just as good for music as HT, but from what I have been reading here, the HSU 3.3 has the edge for music. And from what I can tell, the PB-12 NSD/2 has more power for HT...

I believe this was discussed earlier in the thread and the nod was given to the HSU for better sound quality.

I believe this was discussed earlier in the thread and the nod was given to the HSU for better sound quality.

The first page of this thread shows the points. Thereafter you just search the thread for the page.

I tried contacting a couple of Def Tech's dealers, and they had no clue what the Trinity even was.
Sounds about right :(
I've kind of given up on the Trinity.... for now :confused:
Think I'll concentrate on the new SVS Ultra which should be out pretty soon :)

dc

Did you ever rate the H-100? I'm curious to see how you think it compares to the x-sub.

I believe this was discussed earlier in the thread and the nod was given to the HSU for better sound quality.

I actually spent a couple of hours last night reading through this thread and just now doing a search of the thread. It is very informative and I appreciate the amount of info contained herein. However, there is virtually no mention of the PB- 12 NSD/2. There is info on the PB-12 NSD and PB-12 plus and PB-12 plus/2, but none on the NSD/2. So I was just wondering if anyone could elaborate on that particular sub since it and the VTF 3.3 are the two that I am sincerely interested in.
bgillyjcu was kind enough to give me his impression on the NSD/2, however I still have no specific comparison to the 3.3. If I can extrapolate the info on the NSD to the NSD/2, then I guess this answers my question. But I don't know if this is a valid assumption. If this comparison is not yet available, I guess I have more searching to do.

Did you ever rate the H-100? I'm curious to see how you think it compares to the x-sub.

The H-100 has about 3 dB higher output than does the Onix X-Sub, but is not as articulate nor as percussive. Overall, after living with it for a while, and having a few others check it out with me, it gets a 76.

One of the subjective differences between it and an X-sub is the X-Sub never left me wanting to hook up one of the "big dogs" while listening to music, while the H-100 did.

Neither hits hard below about 25 Hz for movie spectaculars.

Craig:
I'm curious to know how clean and linear the X sub is compared to the H-100. Thanks.

Ian

Ian - The X-sub is much cleaner up to its limits than is the H-100, and it is also more linear across the response curve. The H-100 might be a good choice for someone doing JUST HT, but I would even take the X-sub in this application.

I have heard the 3.3 with turbo and the PB-12NSD/2 but not TOGETHER.

I've heard them in totally different rooms too.

The 3.3 with turbo is a great subwoofer....looks wise its like an ugly girl that is great in bed.

The PB-12NSD/2 is a pretty big box, but the sound it produces is very big too...Plus the box actually looks nice.

PERFORMANCE wise....the NSD/2 will give you more total SPL....so if you want the most room shaking performance for HT....I'd give it the nod.

If you are not concerned about having that high SPL number....the 3.3 with turbo will dig deeper with turbo because it is tuned lower than the NSD/2. It will still give you some very impressive SPL numbers too!!!

So the moral of the story is.....you really have to define what you want (Breakdown of % of HT use vs % of Music use)

What your listening habits are...Want the deepest of deep giving up some SPL...or cares more about the bass from 20hz up that will shake and slam you thus some higher SPL...

What your listening environment is like...Large room? Small room? How many Cubic feet...is it open or sealed?

Anybody interested in some H100 unboxing pics? Just got mine this morning.

http://picasaweb.google.com/jgillow/H100?authkey=UI5XEC0YmCM

The port plug one was just for fun :) Perfect fit though.

It survived the burn-in test of Year Zero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Zero_(album)).

I actually spent a couple of hours last night reading through this thread and just now doing a search of the thread. It is very informative and I appreciate the amount of info contained herein. However, there is virtually no mention of the PB- 12 NSD/2. There is info on the PB-12 NSD and PB-12 plus and PB-12 plus/2, but none on the NSD/2. So I was just wondering if anyone could elaborate on that particular sub since it and the VTF 3.3 are the two that I am sincerely interested in.
bgillyjcu was kind enough to give me his impression on the NSD/2, however I still have no specific comparison to the 3.3. If I can extrapolate the info on the NSD to the NSD/2, then I guess this answers my question. But I don't know if this is a valid assumption. If this comparison is not yet available, I guess I have more searching to do.
This is so strange as I been asking the same exact question. Where would the PB12-NSD/2 fit on on Craig's list? More importantly, how is it with respect to music applications as we all know the SVS kicks butt in the ht department. I am sure that the PB12-NSD/2 will dig down deep but how is it say from 30 Hz-80 Hz??? Is it articulate and well defined??? Please anyone if you have any experience with the PB12-NSD/2 why not share your observations here. Inquiring minds want to know-especially me. :D :D

ANy chance we see an Elemental design 250 or 300??(well under $500)

ANy chance we see an Elemental design 250 or 300??(well under $500)

Ditto..love to see it tested

Craig said he's burnt out on sub tests so.....

Craig said he's burnt out on sub tests so.....

That was my dry humor ... I have sent ED a couple of emails, and got no response. When you consider I actually BUY the subwoofers, you would think someone would answer ...

I have some pending orders with SVS that haven't even shipped as well ... (PB12 Plus x 2 in 220v) been about a month now.

they must be overwhelmed with the ultra pre-orders.

looks like the next small subwoofers I order (if I ever) will NOT be the SB12's.

my pet peeves:

1) falling in line for food or items
2) not having a timeframe when waiting for something, give me a date, and I will shut up til that date. but of course, I'll be expecting on the date promised.

Ribbit ... I was referring to ED as in Elemental Designs, not ED as in Ed Mullen.

I have attempted to get the guys at Elemental Designs to sell me a sub ... even tried their on line chat thing. No luck.

If anyone has an idea on this, please let me know.

Ribbit ... I was referring to ED as in Elemental Designs, not ED as in Ed Mullen.

I have attempted to get the guys at Elemental Designs to sell me a sub ... even tried their on line chat thing. No luck.

If anyone has an idea on this, please let me know.

They won't sell you a sub???

oh, I thought you were talking about the ultras.

my mistake.

They won't sell you a sub???

They never responded to my emails. It may be they are really busy.

That was my dry humor ... I have sent ED a couple of emails, and got no response. When you consider I actually BUY the subwoofers, you would think someone would answer ...

I would try using their form, or online chat session. I have sent e-mails directly to ED and have not had any response, but generally get a response the next day thru the form submission, and it took only a couple of minutes for the web chat session to be established(at about 10 am PST, They don't seem to connect outside of business hours9-5 CST). Though I could completely understand not wanting to pursue an unresponsive vendor.

The only reason I even bring it up is it's obvious there are quite a few of us who are interested in how they stack up.

They never responded to my emails. It may be they are really busy.
Hey Craig, I have been conversating w/Erik K via emails for several weeks now. For the most part, Erik has gotten back to me in a rather timely fashion. However, last week I noticed this was NOT the case. Erik K told me he was having some problems with his email at erik@svsound.com. This may explain why it is taking a bit longer for them (Ed included) to get back to you. I decided to just pick up the phone and call-spoke w/Erik K a couple of times on the phone. Just thought I would mention it since you have helped me out a couple of times. So, are we even now???? :eek: :eek: Just kiddin!!!!!!!!!!!!..........LOL!!!! :p :p

I would try using their form, or online chat session. I have sent e-mails directly to ED and have not had any response, but generally get a response the next day thru the form submission, and it took only a couple of minutes for the web chat session to be established(at about 10 am PST, They don't seem to connect outside of business hours9-5 CST). Though I could completely understand not wanting to pursue an unresponsive vendor.

The only reason I even bring it up is it's obvious there are quite a few of us who are interested in how they stack up.

I tried the chat line, too. No luck. I will try again during the day, maybe that will help.

And for clarity ... when I say "ED" I mean Elemental Designs ... not Ed Mullen from SVS.

Hey Craig, I have been conversating w/Erik K via emails for several weeks now. For the most part, Erik has gotten back to me in a rather timely fashion. However, last week I noticed this was NOT the case. Erik K told me he was having some problems with his email at erik@svsound.com. This may explain why it is taking a bit longer for them (Ed included) to get back to you. I decided to just pick up the phone and call-spoke w/Erik K a couple of times on the phone. Just thought I would mention it since you have helped me out a couple of times. So, are we even now???? :eek: :eek: Just kiddin!!!!!!!!!!!!..........LOL!!!! :p :p

Just because this is the Internet, I will say this again. I have had no issues getting return mail from Erik or Ed from SVS ... this is about "ED" ... as in Elemental Desgins. I may be trying the wrong approach in contacting them.

I have attempted to get the guys at Elemental Designs to sell me a sub ... even tried their on line chat thing. No luck.

I have had no issues getting return mail from Erik or Ed from SVS ... this is about "ED" ... as in Elemental Desgins. I may be trying the wrong approach in contacting them.

I'm sure they will be willing to sell you a sub....Why pass up a sale? Try giving them a call. The online chat and email correspondence are spotty at best. I think your chance of speaking with a person by phone is the better choice with eD.

Just because this is the Internet, I will say this again. I have had no issues getting return mail from Erik or Ed from SVS ... this is about "ED" ... as in Elemental Desgins. I may be trying the wrong approach in contacting them.
Hey Craig my bad. :D :D Read the post wrong. Thanks for the clarification.

Hello craigsub.

Chris and I are usually the two gentleman on live support for eD.

To be honest with you, neither of us remember talking to you.

I apologize as, we have had numerous reviewer inquire about getting product. But we unfortunately cannot bump a paying customer to get a reviewer product.

We want to catch up with our inventory, so if the review is very positive, we don't run into another a2-300 sale dilemma. :) We have been slowly stocking inventory.

We have a2-300's in stock, and a3-300, a5-300 stocking inventory in production.

Feel free to call and ask for me directly.

641.792.2501

Thank you.

Alex Lindeman
Elemental Designs.

Alex - We never did talk. When I tried the on line chat thing, no one was home. I left you a message (actually, the nice lady on your voice mail system got the message), and look forward to talking.

Alex returned the call, and we are leaning towards the $350 A2-300 for a first test..

Alex returned the call, and we are leaning towards the $350 A2-300 for a first test..

Glad to hear it that. I'm curious to see how it will measure up to the HSU STF2 which is now at the same price point.


Ian

sweet

Sorry to maybe beat a dead horse, but what size room would be the limits for the X sub when it comes to HT duty in your opinion?

Alex returned the call, and we are leaning towards the $350 A2-300 for a first test..

Great news, now if I can only talk you into getting their 5T5's for your bookshelf speaker test.

Sorry to maybe beat a dead horse, but what size room would be the limits for the X sub when it comes to HT duty in your opinion?

That is a really tough question, because we all have different standards for how much and how deep the bass should be - but I think 3000 is about the limit for cubic feet.

The A2-300 is ordered. It sells for $350 (including shipping), and here are the specs:

Model Name : A2-300 Powered Home Audio Subwoofer
Amplifier Power : 200w RMS
Subwoofer Driver Size : eD 12" Subwoofer
Cabinet Type : Vented / Downfire
Room Tuning : 20Hz FR - (18-100Hz +/-3dB)
In Room Avg SPL : 114.8dB (10-100Hz Max Output Avg)
Shipping Weight : 68lbs

On paper, the A2-300 is an interesting contender in its price range. It'll be very interesting to see how close it comes to those specs, especially the 18Hz +/-3db. I've been wondering about that ever since I first saw it.

yeah 114db is alot, but I have heard their car subwoofers and they do get really loud efficiently, and their component systems are cleannn sounding..this could be a good combo..It will be interesting to see when it gets down to 30 and below what the DB output will be like.

yeah 114db is alot, but I have heard their car subwoofers and they do get really loud efficiently, and their component systems are cleannn sounding..this could be a good combo..It will be interesting to see when it gets down to 30 and below what the DB output will be like.

I have a set of 5TC, 6T6s, and one 5T5, and I am happy with all of them.. especially the price I paid. Their SQ is great, finish is great. build quality is great. The 5TCs *could* reach a bit lower but for the price, I can't complain :)

As for their subs' extension, I'm going to hold my thoughts to myself for now... Model a 13kv2 w/ the correct vol and tuning and see what you get. ;)

My concern is if they will keep up with my loud listening habits, I'm like a Klipsch horn kinda guy who doesn't want to buy Klipsch. But when you are talking about good quality, but not great, and high volume levels they are hard to beat. These look like they have some potential to be well rounded and put up with some abuse.

Care to share your experiences with them when it comes to room filling sound?

I had a single 13kv2 in their custom enclosure for a Scion tc, and needless to say it probably led to my needs to have lots of loud deep bass...while their components screamed up to incredibly insane volume levels without batting an eye...hopefully they have put as much thought into the home lines.

My concern is if they will keep up with my loud listening habits, I'm like a Klipsch horn kinda guy who doesn't want to buy Klipsch. But when you are talking about good quality, but not great, and high volume levels they are hard to beat. These look like they have some potential to be well rounded and put up with some abuse.

Care to share your experiences with them when it comes to room filling sound?

I had a single 13kv2 in their custom enclosure for a Scion tc, and needless to say it probably led to my needs to have lots of loud deep bass...while their components screamed up to incredibly insane volume levels without batting an eye...hopefully they have put as much thought into the home lines.


How big is your room?

The room I have my entertainment center is 15x25x9: a large opening into another room and two other open doorways. I have 6T6 for my fronts and the 5T5 for my center. I don't have my 5TC hooked up to my surround system yet but I have them hooked up to an old turd receiver in my computer room. My main receiver is an Onkyo TX604. It only puts out 90W/chan but these speakers have never had a problem filling my house, let alone my living/dining room w/ sound; without hearing any cracking or noise distortion. My wife has come home several times, parked on the opposite side of the street and informed me that she could understand clearly the words to music I was listening too. (this is 65% vol) I'm quite happy with the speakers. The subwoofer was a different story for me...

Depending on your room size, an A2-A5 may not meet your lust for base, especially in the low 20s, high teens. The A2 or A3 are good budget subs and I predict will be good competitors in their price class.... especially the A2 (though I'm not sure they will give the out of the box linearity as the STF3) I'm anxious to see some results and have a good discussion :)

Craig,

I have read all the post in this thread. Very interesting and informative. You are to be commended for trying to bring some quantitative information to an area which is too full of hype.

I am in the market for new subs. My room dimensions are 27'x23'x20' high. Room also opens into a 2 story hall wall and dining area. I listen to only music in this room. I have a large collection of pipe organ CD's, so bass below 25 Hz is important to me. I currently have 2 Sunfire Signature subs for the room. I have been very pleased with their performance, but they give out below about 22 Hz. The subs are in corner locations about 12 feet from the prime listening spot.

I am thinking about upgrading, partially because of your ratings, to two JL fathom 113 subs.

My questions are: will two be sufficient to fill the room (over 12,000 cubic ft), and are they really good with music, especially classical?

My bottom line question I guess, forgetting about the money for the moment, is would I hear a major improvement, in your opinion, to the bottom end. My fear is that I spend $6,400 and my wife says "they sound the same to me".

Any thoughts or guidance would be appreciated.

Dang I wish I was PAB1 :)

CupCak - I will send you a PM to keep this thread on topic some :)

Pab1 ... That is one huge space to fill. I think you will be happy with a pair of Fathon 113's - it will take some careful calibration and use of the Aro system.

For music, they will be fantastic, and they should give you some serious bass for HT.

I have run a single 113 in our 4500^3 foot theater room with great success. You should be fine. :)

The A2-300 is ordered. It sells for $350, and here are the specs:

Model Name : A2-300 Powered Home Audio Subwoofer
Amplifier Power : 200w RMS
Subwoofer Driver Size : eD 12" Subwoofer
Cabinet Type : Vented / Downfire
Room Tuning : 20Hz FR - (18-100Hz +/-3dB)
In Room Avg SPL : 114.8dB (10-100Hz Max Output Avg)
Shipping Weight : 68lbs


Hey Craig, you forgot to mention the free shipping! ;)


Ian :D

As for their subs' extension, I'm going to hold my thoughts to myself for now... Model a 13kv2 w/ the correct vol and tuning and see what you get. ;)

Could you expand your thoughts here a little more? Are you saying the enclosure size should be different? Which eD sub do you have??

PM me, an inquiring mind would like to know.....

Hey Craig, you forgot to mention the free shipping! ;)


Ian :D

Good point. And Post is fixed. :)

On paper, the A2-300 is an interesting contender in its price range. It'll be very interesting to see how close it comes to those specs, especially the 18Hz +/-3db. I've been wondering about that ever since I first saw it.only chart I've seen posted of it here shows a drastic nosedive just under 20Hz.

2000 cu/ft room.

Which Combo do you think would work the best for room - 90% Home Theater


1. VTF-3 HO and MBM-12
2. SVS PB12-Plus/2 and HSU MBM-12
3. 2 MFW-15
4. 1 ACI Maestro

Thanks

How does the Energy S12.3 stack up against the $300+ category?

only chart I've seen posted of it here shows a drastic nosedive just under 20Hz.

Posted where ?


Ian

How does the Energy S12.3 stack up against the $300+ category?

If you can get a 12.3 for $300 in good condition, you have done very well for yourself, and should be happy in a regular sized room.

The A2-300 is ordered. It sells for $350 (including shipping), and here are the specs:

Model Name : A2-300 Powered Home Audio Subwoofer
Amplifier Power : 200w RMS
Subwoofer Driver Size : eD 12" Subwoofer
Cabinet Type : Vented / Downfire
Room Tuning : 20Hz FR - (18-100Hz +/-3dB)
In Room Avg SPL : 114.8dB (10-100Hz Max Output Avg)
Shipping Weight : 68lbs

Great Craig! I had one but sold it for DIY if you recall. I thought it was a very good, low hitting sub for the money. I bought it when it was $235 shipped intro price. :D
BTW, how are you feeling lately?

2000 cu/ft room.

Which Combo do you think would work the best for room - 90% Home Theater


1. VTF-3 HO and MBM-12
2. SVS PB12-Plus/2 and HSU MBM-12
3. 2 MFW-15
4. 1 ACI Maestro

Thanks


any suggestions?

I'm no pro Kermie, but all of those options should fill your size room, a buddy is using a HSU STF-2 in a enclosed one car garage, that would make up almost your room size and it does a great job. I wouldn't say unless you are a serious bass head that you need "2" of anything.

Is the room enclosed or open to the rest of the home? thats about the only thing I could think of. I'm a SVS or HSU kinda guy for a HT dominated room..I think you really can't go wrong with any of your choices except in your wallet.

2000 cu/ft room.

Which Combo do you think would work the best for room - 90% Home Theater


1. VTF-3 HO and MBM-12
2. SVS PB12-Plus/2 and HSU MBM-12
3. 2 MFW-15
4. 1 ACI Maestro

Thanks

Kermie ... To answer your question: Yes, one of those might work "best".

Depending on your time frame, I would take a look at the new Ultra-13 over the Plus/2/MBM combo and also would go with twin VTF-3.3's over the HO/MBM... Both are in the $1400 range.

The MFW-15's are not out yet, and are $1000 .... perhaps a great bargain.

The Maestro is over $2000.

If you asked me which I would pick for myself, cost no object, I would go Maestro.

But that could change when you realize you could get 4 MFW-15's for the same $$$.

Mark is perfecting the BMF design and once done from what I read and understand, it should be a piece worth considering. I don't know ETA on the BMF. I would surely add that to the list and maybe the submersive too in your price range (since you listed Maestro). I also second Craig's opinon on the new Ultra-13.

I second the SubMersive :)

I tried the chat line, too. No luck. I will try again during the day, maybe that will help.

And for clarity ... when I say "ED" I mean Elemental Designs ... not Ed Mullen from SVS.
I sent El. Designs a one question email last week..still no response. WOULD NEVER take that long for Eric,Ed, or Tom to reply! Now I did ask Tom a dumb question and got no reponse...once. My fault. :o

CRAIGSUB,

your sub arrive yet? :confused:

I don't expect much of anything below 18 or 19 Hz from the sub but with my ever shrinking budget it will have to do....eventually. :(

I got the shipping notice from Elemental, and both speakers and sub are set to arrive on Thursday.

Thanks Guys for your input. I am trying to have patience with this purchase. Waiting is the hardest part. The more you search the more options pop up. Should have bought the 3rd or 4th thing I looked at then stayed off the forums for a year....lol

I sent El. Designs a one question email last week..still no response. WOULD NEVER take that long for Eric,Ed, or Tom to reply! Now I did ask Tom a dumb question and got no reponse...once. My fault. :o

CRAIGSUB,

your sub arrive yet? :confused:

I don't expect much of anything below 18 or 19 Hz from the sub but with my ever shrinking budget it will have to do....eventually. :(


Hello Sir.

Every email sent to either sales@edesignaudio.com or tech@edesignaudio.com have been answered within 15 hours. I wonder if its an issue of it getting deleted accidentally or your inbox putting the reply into junk.

Please feel free to shoot me the email directly, alexl@edesignaudio.com.

I would be more than happy to address the question.

Thank you.

Alex Lindeman
Elemental Designs

thx Alex...I PMed ya. Glad to see that the issue was noticed although it's not a big deal...I'm broke anyway. :(

JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo: 91 points
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points

Would someone care(dare) to position the upcoming PB-13 Ultra?

Is it generally expected to outperform the VTF-3 Ho Turbo...and if so...enough to also outperform JL Audio Fathom 112?

I know its hard to speculate...without listening...but what do you think?

N

Would someone care(dare) to position the upcoming PB-13 Ultra?

Is it generally expected to outperform the VTF-3 Ho Turbo...and if so...enough to also outperform JL Audio Fathom 112?

I know its hard to speculate...without listening...but what do you think?

N
Uh ooh!

Would someone care(dare) to position the upcoming PB-13 Ultra?

Is it generally expected to outperform the VTF-3 Ho Turbo...and if so...enough to also outperform JL Audio Fathom 112?

I know its hard to speculate...without listening...but what do you think?

N

Personally, I am waiting on getting one, then getting the crew together to hear how much performance it delivers, before making any real conclusions.

Sorry, but experiencing a product is rather important. :)

I know its hard to speculate...without listening...but what do you think?


I think everyone should agree that "it's hard to speculate...without listening..."

How do these ratings compare to the performance of DIY subs? I've been contemplating a 15" TC-3K build with tons of power in a sealed box.

How do these ratings compare to the performance of DIY subs? I've been contemplating a 15" TC-3K build with tons of power in a sealed box.
Craig and DIY subs, now that would be interesting :D.
I would like to see along with the Tc3K, an 18" LMS 5400 sealed, same in a 600L LLT ported box and with 2, 18" PRs (my dream sub).

We had some fun with a Soundsplinter in a 300 L ported box last year ... If my brother's guys were not working 2 shifts, I would do a few more.

LS1 ... If you have the time and talent, it could be a great project.

LS1 ... If you have the time and talent, it could be a great project.
Time yes, talent maybe partly at least for the analysis and decision making not being swayed by every opinion and wind of doctrine. You have to be smart and sharp to take collective opinions, do your own models and homework and make a decision entirely on your own research. Skills, maybe none.
I am hiring a cabinet maker to build my boxes. Bought two killer amps (Crown CE4000), learned how to model using WinISD (very easy), got a lot of help from some very smart, passionate, philanthropist DIYers (Thyl, Jpmst, WillD, Armystud, Richard...etc etc) and I am all set.
I thought DIY is not for everyone. If I can do it, anyone else here can do it :).

Time yes, talent maybe partly at least for the analysis and decision making not being swayed by every opinion and wind of doctrine. You have to be smart and sharp to take collective opinions, do your own models and homework and make a decision entirely on your own research. Skills, maybe none.
I am hiring a cabinet maker to build my boxes. Bought two killer amps (Crown CE4000), learned how to model using WinISD (very easy), got a lot of help from some very smart, passionate, philanthropist DIYers (Thyl, Jpmst, WillD, Armystud, Richard...etc etc) and I am all set.
I thought DIY is not for everyone. If I can do it, anyone else here can do it :).

You do realize that having someone build the units for you does mean it is no longer "DIY" ... but is rather "custom done".

Looking forward to seeing your subs when they are done ... :D

You do realize that having someone build the units for you does mean it is no longer "DIY" ... but is rather "custom done".

Looking forward to seeing your subs when they are done ... :D
That's why I call them "DMY" (Do most yourself). :D
I am not good with sawdust, cutting etc etc. Those things take a lot of skill and art that I completely lack. I think I can learn that, but don't have the time and patience for it. I already have so much invested at work anything more, I need a clone :eek:

That's why I call them "DMY" (Do most yourself). :D
I am not good with sawdust, cutting etc etc. Those things take a lot of skill and art that I completely lack. I think I can learn that, but don't have the time and patience for it. I already have so much invested at work anything more, I need a clone :eek:

So ... when you say "If I can do it, anyone can" about "DIY", you meant "If I can hire a guy to build my science project for me, anyone can" ... ;) :p :D

You will be required to post pics. You also have to send me one for evaluation.

I promise to return it unscathed. Of course, I also never had sex with that woman, not a single time. :eek:

:eek: :eek: So ... when you say "If I can do it, anyone can" about "DIY", you meant "If I can hire a guy to build my science project for me, anyone can" ... ;) :p :D

You will be required to post pics. You also have to send me one for evaluation.

I promise to return it unscathed. Of course, I also never had sex with that woman, not a single time. :eek:
LOL! Craig. This sub/she will be one of a kind.
I will post pics. The cabinet maker will have the unfinished cabinet ready by 1st week of June latest by 2nd. The drivers and PRs will arrive hopefully no later than 2nd week of June (that's what they promised me). If you pay shipping back and forth including crater for this monster, I will ship one of them to you as long as you send it back to me unscathed :). Deal? Be sure to use a high-pass filter at 16Hz as it PRs will exceed excursion if not used with a 2nd order butterworth filter at 16Hz when pushed with 2500watts or over. Also, make sure not to clip your amp :eek:

Kermie ... To answer your question: Yes, one of those might work "best".

Depending on your time frame, I would take a look at the new Ultra-13 over the Plus/2/MBM combo and also would go with twin VTF-3.3's over the HO/MBM... Both are in the $1400 range.

The MFW-15's are not out yet, and are $1000 .... perhaps a great bargain.

The Maestro is over $2000.

If you asked me which I would pick for myself, cost no object, I would go Maestro.

But that could change when you realize you could get 4 MFW-15's for the same $$$.


What Kind of Power Requirement are we facing with some of the above subs? this might be an issue due to having only 2 different 15amp breakers for my basement. Throw in Plasma, AVR, DVR, etc.

Am I facing issues with a 500-900 watt Sub? or 2?


Thanks

You guys are too much! :p I'm not sure if I have the talent, skills, or knowledge to build something nice but I am sure as hell persistent enough (read stubborn) to make something functional. :D

Just trying to decide the best bang for my buck. If I can't beat the performance and sound quality of a VTF-3 HO for a similar price tag, I'll just go that route. I'm currently using a Boston Acoustics PV700 (http://www.bostonacoustics.com/home_product.aspx?product_id=254), and could stand an upgrade in the near future. It cannot keep up with my recent upgrade to Ascend 340SEs across the front and 170SE surrounds, and I still have plans to add an LPA-1 to them!

The HSU VTF 3-3 (without turbo) is now $629 on HSU compared to the SVS PB12NSD for $599. At those prices, is getting the HSU a no-brainer?

The HSU VTF 3-3 (without turbo) is now $629 on HSU compared to the SVS PB12NSD for $599. At those prices, is getting the HSU a no-brainer?

Considering the HSU outperformed the SVS in Craigs earlier tests I would say yes.

2 days ago I got online very early and what did I find???? a VTF3 MK3 on the Hsu site for only $596. I had to look twice, but that was it. I immediately put an order in for one. I was later told the web guys made a msitake and took 15% off the $699 normal price instead of 10% (the $629 it is now.

I am also an owner of a new PB12-NSD. Hopefully this weekend I'll let you know of my personal feelings on how each of these stacks up against the other.

I can tell you the PB12-NSD is very powerful at low levels. Who knows...maybe I'll keep both. Stay tuned.

2 days ago I got online very early and what did I find???? a VTF3 MK3 on the Hsu site for only $596. I had to look twice, but that was it. I immediately put an order in for one. I was later told the web guys made a msitake and took 15% off the $699 normal price instead of 10% (the $629 it is now.

I am also an owner of a new PB12-NSD. Hopefully this weekend I'll let you know of my personal feelings on how each of these stacks up against the other.

I can tell you the PB12-NSD is very powerful at low levels. Who knows...maybe I'll keep both. Stay tuned.

Congratulations! I saw the same thing, but they changed the price on me after I interred my credit card info. I had to pay the regular sale price.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the two subs.

benchlegs, looking forward to reading your impression of the 3.3 and 12/NSD ... :)

For an update, the Elemental Designs sub has been hooked up for a week, and is a killer $350 subwoofer. It does quite well on the usual Bass CD's - Roger Water, Steely Dan, etc ...

And on WOTW, it was hard to believe this was a $350 sub. Here is the graph of the machines coming out for each the SVS PB-12 Plus/2 and the ED sub.

SVS PB12-Plus/2

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/svswotwnewrta.jpg

The Elemental Designs subwoofer

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/EDwotwch.jpg

well if my budget stays tight I'll be calling them up! THANKS CRAIG!

Wonder what the stepup would be with the $450 A3(3 db gain,extension(who knows!)...probably no better than the PB10 etc,.. :o

After looking at the notes, and the objective data, the Elemental Designs A2-300 gets a rating of 83 ... remarkable for a $350 product.

It is an exceptional performer ... not in the league as the best subs, but very good.

The BIC H-100's final score was a 78.

thx for adding it,craig.

I'm assuming it had a massive dropoff (based on other reviews of their subs) on more than one flick once you got around 20-22Hz,correct? :confused:

Hey Craig, any chance you might review any of ED's other subs? Say the A3-500

Hey Craig, any chance you might review any of ED's other subs? Say the A3-500

I was curious about this as well. Considering the $350.00 model performed so well I'm curious to see what there upper models can do.

Craig:
How would you compare the ED sub to the HSU STF2 which is at the exact price point?

Ian

New27 seems to have disappeared ... so while I was cringing when he opened this thread, it has actually gone pretty smoothly.

Here is an updated list:

JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points
Velodyne DD-18: 100 points
ACI Maestro: 97 points
JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo: 91 points
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points
Axiom EP-500: 90 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo: 88 points
SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points
SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo: 86 points
Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
Elemental Designs A2-300: 83 points
SVS PB10-NSD: 83 points
Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
BIC H-100: 78 points
Rocket Tyke: 60 points

If Alex wants another sub tested, I am game. We did talk about their ultimate subwoofer a couple of weeks ago, and based on my experience with the $350 offering, I would love to run their up coming flagship against the AV123 BMF.

The Flagship will have dual 18's in a HUGE ported enclosure for about $2000.

Craig:
How would you compare the ED sub to the HSU STF2 which is at the exact price point?

Ian

I am merely guessing here, as I have not had an STF-2 ... but I "think" the Hsu would be more articulate, and the Elemental more powerful. Based on the Hsu VTF-2.3's 86 score, they would likely be pretty close.

I was just wondering because I have had a A5-300 for almost a year ;) (pre production) .


I don't think Alex would have an issue with sending more subs out :)

N

Elemental Designs A2-300: 83 points
SVS PB10-NSD: 83 points
:D sweet taters! :D

Craig, good to see the A2-300 numbers finally. I have been following the thing ead closely and waiting for you to share your experience.

I remember someone mentioning this year should be a real good one for the audiophile community in general and for the 'bassaholics' particular for new subwoofers like JL's offerings, New 13's from SVS, forthcoming BMF and Submersive and now it all seems to get even better with the new guns from the ED's arsenal proving their capabilities.

Kudos to ED, hope their flagship subs would perform favorably amongst the big boys and provide an even better bang for the buck.

Craig, once again you did a great job for testing an unknown sub, painstakingly running the tests and sharing the numbers. Any further comments/observations on the product (driver, enclosure, amp) build quality you like to add?

Craig, once again you did a great job for testing an unknown sub, painstakingly running the tests and sharing the numbers. Any further comments/observations on the product (driver, enclosure, amp) build quality you like to add?

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a344/Sbwillie/goodjob.gif

Good morning - I am hoping to get the chance to do some comparative SPL numbers on the A2-300 vs. a PB12-NSD this morning. The WOTW scene is the Pods emerge scene, and is a great test for a sub, to "see" how a sub handles real program material.

I will likely do 16, 18, 20, 25 and 32 Hz sine waves.

The ED guys made some intelligent choices for this unit - a single tuning port, beefy driver, fairly large cabinet, and no frills. There is not even a grill, which makes shipping cheaper, too.

Subjectively, the A2-300 does a great job on movies - shaking the room with authority. The PB-12 is more articulate on music, but the less expensive ED does pretty well here, too.

I remember someone mentioning this year should be a real good one for the audiophile community in general and for the 'bassaholics' particular for new subwoofers like JL's offerings, New 13's from SVS, forthcoming BMF and Submersive and now it all seems to get even better with the new guns from the ED's arsenal proving their capabilities.

Absolutely. Another Seaton designed entrant on the low end is the MFW-15. I heard one last night and while I had nothing to compare it to sonically I can tell you it baffled me with its output for the wattage and $$$. I can't wait for Craig to get his hands on a couple.

For comparison purposes, here are some numbers on the SVS PB-10 vs. the Elemental Designs A2-300. I was planning on the PB-12, but this seemed a better "fit"

PB-10 @ 20 Hz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/pb1020.jpg

A2-300 @ 20 Hz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/A220Hz.jpg

PB10 @ 25 Hz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/pb1025.jpg

A2-300 @ 25 Hz

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/A225Hz.jpg

Here is where the A2-300 really shines ... and meshes well with the listening tests done here: Check out this performance at 18 Hz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/A218Hz.jpg

Finally ... 16 Hz. Still impressive for a $350 sub.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/A216Hz.jpg

For those who are trying to figure out these graphs ... all you need to do is look at the number in the upper left hand corner - for example, the A2-300's 20 Hz graph - 93.011 dB is the level delivered at 20 Hz - and when there are 2 numbers, look at the second, or lower one, for SPL delivered at that frequency.

i'd love to see how the gotham and definitive technology's supercube trinity signature ranks

any future plans on a test craig?

We are planning another high end shootout this Fall ... I would guess October-December. I am not sure who the players will be ... For example, the Fathom 113 pair we already have should be pretty close to the Gotham - in fact, they may outperform the Gotham in SPL delivered by a small margin, and for several thousand less $$$$ ...

Then we have the New Ultra-13, SUBmersive, MFW-15 Quad Pack, BMF ... etc ...

I tried to secure a Trinity, with no luck.

And we also have the potential of the ED Dual 18 incher, too.

My wife may finally have had enough when this one starts ... :eek: :D

We are planning another high end shootout this Fall ... I would guess October-December. I am not sure who the players will be ... For example, the Fathom 113 pair we already have should be pretty close to the Gotham - in fact, they may outperform the Gotham in SPL delivered by a small margin, and for several thousand less $$$$ ...

Then we have the New Ultra-13, SUBmersive, MFW-15 Quad Pack, BMF ... etc ...

I tried to secure a Trinity, with no luck.

And we also have the potential of the ED Dual 18 incher, too.

My wife may finally have had enough when this one starts ... :eek: :D

that's great!

if you test a pair of Fathom 113's, will you stack them or put then next to each other?

The Fathoms are already here .. and stacked. :D

The Fathoms are already here .. and stacked. :D

nice!

did you get any readings yet?

The Fathoms are already here .. and stacked. :D

oh, one more question

i keep my subs stacked also, i keep them spiked into the hardwood floor and the top subs i keep spiked into the top of the bottom subs (with the piano tops removed so that the spikes are "dug in" to the bottom subs MDF

how do you "stack" your fathoms without the top one moving?

New27 seems to have disappeared ... so while I was cringing when he opened this thread, it has actually gone pretty smoothly.

Here is an updated list:

JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points
Velodyne DD-18: 100 points
ACI Maestro: 97 points
JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo: 91 points
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points
Axiom EP-500: 90 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo: 88 points
SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points
SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo: 86 points
Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
Elemental Designs A2-300: 83 points
SVS PB10-NSD: 83 points
Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
BIC H-100: 78 points
Rocket Tyke: 60 points

If Alex wants another sub tested, I am game. We did talk about their ultimate subwoofer a couple of weeks ago, and based on my experience with the $350 offering, I would love to run their up coming flagship against the AV123 BMF.

The Flagship will have dual 18's in a HUGE ported enclosure for about $2000.

Craig, would it be possible for you to PM one of the moderators to see if you can take control of this thread? It would be much easier for us to find the updated numbers if they were on the first page, as they were before, as opposed to being throughout the thread.

If they won't do that, maybe you could start a new thread, linking to this one, so you can have the updated list at the beginning, just a suggestion :D

By the way, when you have your new high end shootout in the fall, would it be possible to include your dual HO's?

Keep up the good work as usual.

nice!

did you get any readings yet?

I tested the Fathom last October/November. Here is a link to some comparisons with a Velodyne DD-18:

link (http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=15586&page=65)

There is a reason the F-113 is the current #1 sub in the list ... not only is it very powerful, is sounds great. The stacked pair reside in our upstairs theater room - about 4500^3 feet. It is the first subwoofer arrangement that gets people like my wife raving about the bass.

The Fathoms were also the first high end sub I tested here before the main stream magazines posted results on it ... it was quite the relief to later see the accolades that The Perfect Vision, Absolute Sound, Stereophile, etc ... placed on it.

Craig, would it be possible for you to PM one of the moderators to see if you can take control of this thread? It would be much easier for us to find the updated numbers if they were on the first page, as they were before, as opposed to being throughout the thread.

If they won't do that, maybe you could start a new thread, linking to this one, so you can have the updated list at the beginning, just a suggestion :D

By the way, when you have your new high end shootout in the fall, would it be possible to include your dual HO's?

Keep up the good work as usual.

New27 PM'ed me on another site - and the reason he has not been here was a computer problem. It would seem like we could come up with some solution to make this easier for everyone. I do have the notes from the testing, too.

The Velodyne was the original "100" sub - and it received 50 points for Home Theater and 50 for Music.

I had originally planned on breaking out the points scale showing the separate results.

In other words "The Acme model 1 received 88 points ... 45 for Home theater, and 43 for music".

That ED sub seems to be a bad boy. For someone building a dedicated HT 4 of those under the screen, with their low profile, should be very nice, all for $1400.
Great job Craig.

nm, bg oops... :o

For comparison purposes, here are some numbers on the SVS PB-10 vs. the Elemental Designs A2-300. I was planning on the PB-12, but this seemed a better "fit"

PB-10 @ 20 Hz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/pb1020.jpg

A2-300 @ 20 Hz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/A220Hz.jpg

PB10 @ 25 Hz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/pb1025.jpg

A2-300 @ 25 Hz

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/A225Hz.jpg

Here is where the A2-300 really shines ... and meshes well with the listening tests done here: Check out this performance at 18 Hz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/A218Hz.jpg

Finally ... 16 Hz. Still impressive for a $350 sub.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/A216Hz.jpg

For those who are trying to figure out these graphs ... all you need to do is look at the number in the upper left hand corner - for example, the A2-300's 20 Hz graph - 93.011 dB is the level delivered at 20 Hz - and when there are 2 numbers, look at the second, or lower one, for SPL delivered at that frequency.



apparently whoever stated the ED sub had a huge dropoff @ 20 Hz had room issues. nice! :cool:<in the official ED discussion>

Would be plenty of sub for my LR with a china cabinet 5 ft away AND a HUGE WAF factor. :rolleyes:

CRAIG:

u have any problems pushing it below 18Hz or do u think 18 is a perfect filter point?

apparently whoever stated the ED sub had a huge dropoff @ 20 Hz had room issues. nice! :cool:<in the official ED discussion>

Would be plenty of sub for my LR with a china cabinet 5 ft away AND a HUGE WAF factor. :rolleyes:

CRAIG:

u have any problems pushing it below 18Hz or do u think 18 is a perfect filter point?
Do notice that those are some kind of maximum output measurements. They don't tell what kind of frequency response the subwoofer has.

Re: results, it looks like the ED sub has awful lot of distortion (2x, 3x, 4x etc. the fundamental frequency) compared to the PB10?

actually the ED charts extend far below the SVS charts on Db levels........so the distortion only looks worse(the ED goes down to 20db, the SVS only down to 50)unless your seeing something I'm not :confused: :confused: ;)

Gents ... Let's look at the 25 Hz Charts .. and the distortion levels as relative to the respective fundamentals... SPL rounded to nearest dB. Here is a chart to convert relative dB levels to distortion:

dB Below Test Tone % Distortion

-5 dB = 56.2 %
-10 dB = 31.6 %
-15 dB = 17.8 %
-20 dB = 10.0 %
-25 dB = 5.62 %
-30 dB = 3.16 %
-35 dB = 1.78 %
-40 dB = 1.00 %
-45 dB = .562 %
-50 dB = .316 %


PB10 Fundamental: 100 dB
2nd Harmonic (50 Hz) : 76 dB (-24 dB)
3rd harmonic (75 Hz) : 73 dB (-27 dB)
4th harmonic (100 Hz) : 60 dB (-40 dB)

A2-300 Fundamental: 100 dB
2nd harmonic: 74 dB (-26 dB)
3rd harmonic: 72 dB (-28 dB)
4th harmonic: 58 dB (-42 dB)

I used graphs taken from my old laptop with older TrueRTA software ... so the 2 graphs do look somewhat different .. plus, yes, the screens had different levels of minumum SPL levels at the bottom.

I don't have software which calculates actual THD levels, so I have to eyeball, and approximate the 10% level which is considered "standard" in the undustry for sinewaves.

Note - You cannot use these max SPL levels and the CEA-2010 standard, either. Tese are constant sine waves - about 3 seconds for each "run" for TrueRTA to capture the SPL level accurately. CEA 2010 calls for the use of short term bursts, and also allows for -10 dB, or 31.6% distortion, on the 2nd harmonic alone.

actually the ED charts extend far below the SVS charts on Db levels........so the distortion only looks worse(the ED goes down to 20db, the SVS only down to 50)unless your seeing something I'm not :confused: :confused: ;)
Yeah, I admit that I got a little bit confused because the scales were so different.

But in any case, at 20 Hz the PB10 seems to have very little distortion, less than 1% for second harmonic, while the ED has slightly over 10%. Correct?

Richard ... the 20 Hz chart on the PB10 had some strange readings for the harmonics ... the fundamental had matched up well with what I had earlier measured, and also with the levels Ed Mullen had achieved. The older software would sometimes "jump" the harmonics up or down, in terms of frequency, when using the peak hold function. I merely captured the wrong screen ... the unit was close to the 10% threshold when the test was run.

The newer software is much easier to work with.

Richard ... the 20 Hz chart on the PB10 had some strange readings for the harmonics ... the fundamental had matched up well with what I had earlier measured, and also with the levels Ed Mullen had achieved. The older software would sometimes "jump" the harmonics up or down, in terms of frequency, when using the peak hold function. I merely captured the wrong screen ... the unit was close to the 10% threshold when the test was run.

The newer software is much easier to work with.
OK. Though IMO it would be fair to remeasure the PB10 with this new SW. I doubt the measuring conditions were identical either?

OK. Though IMO it would be fair to remeasure the PB10 with this new SW. I doubt the measuring conditions were identical either?

They were both taken using the standard 2 meters from the unit, ground plane.

There is nothing to suggest that the PB10 would have performed or measured any differently ... it is going to deliver roughly 94 dB @ 20 Hz under these conditions.

I'll leave the fancy talk to craig... ;)

dB Below Test Tone % Distortion

-5 dB = 56.2 %
-10 dB = 31.6 %
-15 dB = 17.8 %
-20 dB = 10.0 %
-25 dB = 5.62 %
-30 dB = 3.16 %
-35 dB = 1.78 %
-40 dB = 1.00 %
-45 dB = .562 %
-50 dB = .316 %


PB10 Fundamental: 100 dB
2nd Harmonic (50 Hz) : 76 dB (-24 dB)
3rd harmonic (75 Hz) : 73 dB (-27 dB)
4th harmonic (100 Hz) : 60 dB (-40 dB)

A2-300 Fundamental: 100 dB
2nd harmonic: 74 dB (-26 dB)
3rd harmonic: 72 dB (-28 dB)
4th harmonic: 58 dB (-42 dB)

They were both taken using the standard 2 meters from the unit, ground plane.
I meant weather conditions like temperature, air pressure etc. Don't they have any kind of effect? I've read they can easily cause 2-3 dB difference?


There is nothing to suggest that the PB10 would have performed or measured any differently ... it is going to deliver roughly 94 dB @ 20 Hz under these conditions.
Still, it would be fair. :)

I meant weather conditions like temperature, air pressure etc. Don't they have any kind of effect? I've read they can easily cause 2-3 dB difference?


Still, it would be fair. :)

Both were taken during temps of appx. 70 degrees. The PB10 I have here now is 2.5 years old. It is out of production ... I will probably run some fresh numbers on the PB12-NSD for comparisons.

I just don't feel like tearing out a 70 pound sub and re-testing it ... when you can no longer buy it. :D

As promised here's my subjective findings on these two nice subs. This is just my opinion and I have no affiliation with either SVS or Hsu.

On fit and finish, the SVS seemed to have a bit more quality. The controls were laid out simply and elegantly, and looked like it was assembled with superb fit and finish.

On power I gave the nod to the HSU. With 1 port open (maximum extension mode)at -5 sub out (-10 to +10 possibility) running hot at about 2-3db (78) the 3.3 gain output was at 10:00 while the SVS gain output was at 1:00 to achieve approximately the same SPL. In maximum output mode the difference is even greater as the Hsu is just plain loud.

As far as low extension goes, I found them to be pretty much equals although what I heard was different. The SVS had more rumble and slightly slower while the Hsu seemed to have more punch and was a tad bit faster. It's kinda like a George Forman right (brute force) vs an Ali right (more finese) They both will hurt and knock you out, but in distinctly different ways.

In the mid to high end frequencies the Hsu really shined with more SPL (even in the extended mode) and real power punch in the maximum output mode.

In the end it just comes down to your personal preference. Not to sound like a broken record, but the SVS is for those who want their low end delivered with brute force, while the Hsu delivers it's goods with power, punch, and speed.

I did find out describing what you are hearing is really difficult and my hat is off to Craig and others who have attempted to articulate what they hear into words for all of us to benefit from.

I am now debating on what to do. Maybe I will keep both and use the SVS for extension and the Hsu for the mid to high bass. There is also the possibility one or the other will go up for sale. I live in Phoenix if anyone is interested.

To give everyone an idea of how the A2-300 stacks up to the 12 inch subs from SVS, I ran some numbers on the PB12-NSD. Again, these are sine waves ...

The A2-300 delivered The following @ 10 % THD (appx.)

18 Hz: 93 dB
20 Hz: 93 dB
25 Hz: 100 dB
31 Hz: 104 dB

The SVS PB12-NSD delivered the following @ 10 % THD (appx.)

18 Hz: 96 dB
20 Hz: 97 dB
25 Hz: 104 dB
31 Hz: 106 dB

Very respectable for eD. Though I must say I give the nod to SVS for looks.

Craigsub,

Do you have an opinion on remote controls for subwoofers?

The lack of a remotes for all the new fine subs hitting the market these days is a disappointment for me because I'd like to try a new sub. The music that I listen to has bass levels all over the place so I usually make a bass adjustment in the first few seconds of the disk.

My other dislike of many subs is that the controls are on the back and cannot be accessed easily but I could live with controls on the rear if I had a remote for the sub.

Anyway, your thoughts (or anyone else) on remote controls for subwoofers? :)

I love remotes for subs, which is why I have 2 SMS-1 packages from Velodyne. Not only is it a great EQ tool, it adds remote volume AND remote switching between the different curves.

Craigsub,

Do you have an opinion on remote controls for subwoofers?

The lack of a remotes for all the new fine subs hitting the market these days is a disappointment for me because I'd like to try a new sub. The music that I listen to has bass levels all over the place so I usually make a bass adjustment in the first few seconds of the disk.

My other dislike of many subs is that the controls are on the back and cannot be accessed easily but I could live with controls on the rear if I had a remote for the sub.

Anyway, your thoughts (or anyone else) on remote controls for subwoofers? :)I don't have RC for my sub, but I can adjust the volume by changing the channel level using my AVR remote. One button gets to all the channel levels, then adjust volume from there.

Craigsub,

Do you have an opinion on remote controls for subwoofers?

The lack of a remotes for all the new fine subs hitting the market these days is a disappointment for me because I'd like to try a new sub. The music that I listen to has bass levels all over the place so I usually make a bass adjustment in the first few seconds of the disk.

My other dislike of many subs is that the controls are on the back and cannot be accessed easily but I could live with controls on the rear if I had a remote for the sub.

Anyway, your thoughts (or anyone else) on remote controls for subwoofers? :)


Bass traps and eq means that the bass sounds right with everything. ;)

I love remotes for subs, which is why I have 2 SMS-1 packages from Velodyne. Not only is it a great EQ tool, it adds remote volume AND remote switching between the different curves.

Are two units required for a pair of subs? I did a quick search on a Velodyne SMS-1 and found some interesting reviews that I will have to spend a little time investigating.

ransac,

Thanks for the tip on adjusting the volume using your receivers remote. I will have to read my manual for my Sony DA-3000ES to find out how to do that.

To give everyone an idea of how the A2-300 stacks up to the 12 inch subs from SVS, I ran some numbers on the PB12-NSD. Again, these are sine waves ...

The A2-300 delivered The following @ 10 % THD (appx.) :eek:

18 Hz: 93 dB
20 Hz: 93 dB
25 Hz: 100 dB
31 Hz: 104 dB

The SVS PB12-NSD delivered the following @ 10 % THD (appx.)

18 Hz: 96 dB
20 Hz: 97 dB
25 Hz: 104 dB
31 Hz: 106 dB


Considering the fact that the ED is close to half the cost of the SVS with shipping, it offers an incredible value. I'd give it a 99.9 for the best bang for the buck when it comes to any sub near it's price range.

Ian

Are two units required for a pair of subs? I did a quick search on a Velodyne SMS-1 and found some interesting reviews that I will have to spend a little time investigating.

ransac,

Thanks for the tip on adjusting the volume using your receivers remote. I will have to read my manual for my Sony DA-3000ES to find out how to do that.

The SMS-1 has outputs for 3 subs ... it won't EQ them separately ... but in the same room, that is not an issue.

After looking at the notes, and the objective data, the Elemental Designs A2-300 gets a rating of 83 ... remarkable for a $350 product.
i noticed that's the same score you gave the PB-10. any comments on subjective sound quality differences between the two? does one sub do something better/worse than the other, or vice/versa, etc?

so does a bstock pb10 @ 325$ get 84 for the extra value? If it wasn't for the finish on the eD I probably would've given it a look. My fiance would've killed me had I tried to bring the eD into the house!

The A2-300 and PB10 sound a lot alike ... with the A2 getting a stronger recommendation for its ability to shake the room, while the PB10 is a bit more articulate. These are very minor differences in both ways.

I don't use any form of a value system at all. If the PB10 was $1429, it would still get an 83. Of course, you could the purchase the PB12-NSD for $599, and you decide whether or not the sub is a good value.

My wife, AKA as "She who decorates", says the Elemental, Hsu, and SVS black subs are all equally good looking ... or equally "not her taste" ... :D

Is there general agreement that in the $700-$1000 category for a large room, I should look at the HSUs? Everything above the HSU's on the ranking list seems to be well out of this price range.

I am trying to put together all the information contained in this thread to come up with a subwoofer that has the most "bang for the buck" for a large room.

Based on the rankings, I am leaning toward the HSU VTF-3 MK3 Subwoofer w/o Turbo which is now selling for $629 +$75 shipping.

I would be willing to go with the HSU VTF-3 HO Subwoofer w/o Turbo for $899 +$80 shipping if folks on this thread thought the extra 15% (1 point) performance bump was really worth an extra $275.

For the cost savings, I would would go with the VTF-3.3 ... and the PB12-NSD/2 should be considered, too, considering the performance of the single driver PB12-NSD.

Bass traps and eq means that the bass sounds right with everything. ;)

I have to respectfully disagree with the above statement. As while bass traps and equalization have quite effectively optimized your system's frequency response and spectral decay - nothing other than a controlled boost in the appropriate low frequencies can make up for the anemic bass response found in many recordings and/or movies. And so, let's give blame where blame is due, for the fault lies with the recording engineer - not the equipment as such.

For the cost savings, I would would go with the VTF-3.3 ... and the PB12-NSD/2 should be considered, too, considering the performance of the single driver PB12-NSD.


Thank's for the insight! I placed my order for a VTF-3.3 a few minutes ago.

I have to respectfully disagree with the above statement. As while bass traps and equalization have quite effectively optimized your system's frequency response and spectral decay - nothing other than a controlled boost in the appropriate low frequencies can make up for the anemic bass response found in many recordings and/or movies. And so, let's give blame where blame is due, for the fault lies with the recording engineer - not the equipment as such.


I'd personally say that, if you have bass traps and the sub(s) eq'd flat and even or a bit hot with the rest of the speakers, if the listener still has to tweak the bass level for every recording, the fault lies with the listener who is never satisfied and thinks he knows better than the recording engineer how much bass there should or shouldn't be in any given recording.


It'd be interesting to see how many people who have taken the time to treat their rooms and eq their subs actually feel the need to adjust the bass/lfe from recording to recording. The only people I've seen say/write that they do so are people with no room treatments, no eq'ing, probably with terrible in-room response that adds too much bass to certain frequencies and sucks the life out of others.

The A2-300 and PB10 sound a lot alike ... with the A2 getting a stronger recommendation for its ability to shake the room, while the PB10 is a bit more articulate. These are very minor differences in both ways.

I don't use any form of a value system at all. If the PB10 was $1429, it would still get an 83. Of course, you could the purchase the PB12-NSD for $599, and you decide whether or not the sub is a good value.

My wife, AKA as "She who decorates", says the Elemental, Hsu, and SVS black subs are all equally good looking ... or equally "not her taste" ... :D

Hi Craig, glad you tested the A2-300. I was one of the first to get one and was very impressed. But sold it for a DIY 15" sub. ;) I feel justified as I too have recommended it. But many members needed graphs. That's ok. Glad you liked it. :D

My review. Very good entry level sub for under $400. :)

craigsub, did you ever review an Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus sub? I understand it's similar to the HSU VTF 3.2, so perhaps there may not be a need for a separate review.

Here's an interesting question -- I'm picking up a new Fathom 113 tomorrow afternoon. I'm flying WAY below the radar with my C.F.O. on what it cost. But I anticipate a lot of interest from family and friends, and would like to have a favored sub or two to recommend to them on the pre-owned market for under $500. What would be some good bets? These would all be people with mass-fi avr's and probably $200 (when new) subs. I've already resolved to recommend a Servo 15 to the high fliers ready to drop $800, but my guess is most will want the "under $500" recommendation, and I figure that will go a lot further in pre-owned.

Any thoughts?

Don't know anything about the used market, but new, the under $500 standbys include the SVS PB12-NSD and the Hsu VTF-2 MK3. At least they are easy to find, and certain to please the people you describe.

I'd personally say that, if you have bass traps and the sub(s) eq'd flat and even or a bit hot with the rest of the speakers, if the listener still has to tweak the bass level for every recording, the fault lies with the listener who is never satisfied and thinks he knows better than the recording engineer how much bass there should or shouldn't be in any given recording.

Well, I am not advocating a change in bass level for every recording - just the judicial use of bass boost at the proper frequencies, for the 10% of music/movies that are poorly recorded. And moreover, are you attempting to infer - in respect to bass level - that all CD's and DVD's are of the same quality? Perhaps you have never experienced digitally recorded 1980's rock music, or early movie sound effects?

It'd be interesting to see how many people who have taken the time to treat their rooms and eq their subs actually feel the need to adjust the bass/lfe from recording to recording. The only people I've seen say/write that they do so are people with no room treatments, no eq'ing, probably with terrible in-room response that adds too much bass to certain frequencies and sucks the life out of others.

Again, I am not certain that I understand your logic. Your claim, is that if we insure that the room response is as flat as possible, and standing wave effects are minimized, we will somehow negate the fact that some recordings have a bass response that is not even close to optimal? Furthermore, isn't it obvious that a system with optimized frequency response, would make differences in recording quality more apparent, and not less? As an example, just imagine a system with a 20 decibel suck-out between 60-100 Hz. In this case, just about everything would sound the same (anemic).

Well, I am not advocating a change in bass level for every recording - just the judicial use of bass boost at the proper frequencies, for the 10% of music/movies that are poorly recorded. And moreover, are you attempting to infer - in respect to bass level - that all CD's and DVD's are of the same quality? Perhaps you have never experienced digitally recorded 1980's rock music, or early movie sound effects?



Again, I am not certain that I understand your logic. Your claim, is that if we insure that the room response is as flat as possible, and standing wave effects are minimized, we will somehow negate the fact that some recordings have a bass response that is not even close to optimal? Furthermore, isn't it obvious that a system with optimized frequency response, would make differences in recording quality more apparent, and not less? As an example, just imagine a system with a 20 decibel suck-out between 60-100 Hz. In this case, just about everything would sound the same (anemic).

If you you listen to the same crappy 1980's rock music or early movie sound track in two different environments, which only differed by the presence of bass traps and/or subwoofer EQ, wouldn't the crappy 1980's rock music or early movie sound track sound better in the treated room?

Anyways, I use bass traps and eq to enjoy the 90% of the music and movies that are well recorded.

If you you listen to the same crappy 1980's rock music or early movie sound track in two different environments, which only differed by the presence of bass traps and/or subwoofer EQ, wouldn't the crappy 1980's rock music or early movie sound track sound better in the treated room?

Anyways, I use bass traps and eq to enjoy the 90% of the music and movies that are well recorded.

What if an untreated room had 3 db elevated bass response in the 30-80 hz range? Wouldn't the bass shy recordings sound better in this hypothetical room?
And, let me qualify my position on bass traps and room equalization. In my opinion, these devices can offer some of the most effective sound quality improvements available for a home theater or two channel system. However, a properly treated room will not make all recordings sound acceptable, I feel.

Well, I am not advocating a change in bass level for every recording - just the judicial use of bass boost at the proper frequencies, for the 10% of music/movies that are poorly recorded. And moreover, are you attempting to infer - in respect to bass level - that all CD's and DVD's are of the same quality? Perhaps you have never experienced digitally recorded 1980's rock music, or early movie sound effects?


I do not think that every recording is of the same quality or has the same amount of bass (quality is not synonymous with amount of bass). Some music and some movies just don't have the same amount or same kind of bass. I just don't feel the need to artificially add extra bass to anything. I enjoy sound as it was recorded.

And actually I found that most of my music collection had great bass at all frequencies. I never knew this till I added bass traps and eq'd my sub. That brought out all of the detail in the bass, the texture of different kinds of bass, drums, bass guitars, bass notes, low bass, mid bass, high bass. Instead of just hearing the main frequencies people think of as bass, I was hearing all of the bass as it was meant to be heard. Songs I thought had no or very little bass suddenly had beautiful, textured drums or bass guitar lines. Plus I know it's the correct amount of bass that is supposed to be heard, not some arbitrary level of bass I decided upon subjectively.



Again, I am not certain that I understand your logic. Your claim, is that if we insure that the room response is as flat as possible, and standing wave effects are minimized, we will somehow negate the fact that some recordings have a bass response that is not even close to optimal? Furthermore, isn't it obvious that a system with optimized frequency response, would make differences in recording quality more apparent, and not less?

"Optimal" is extremely subjective. The Haunting DTS has nice bass. But that doesn't mean that any movie without that much bass is less than optimal and must therefore be artificially boosted to get that much bass.

And yes, a system that is optimized and is more transparent to the quality of the source material does make difference in recording quality more apparent. That's the point of buying nice electronics, nice speakers, nice subs, and room treatments. You don't buy a crappy, tiny TV on purpose because buying a nice HDTV would show how crappy some TV stations or DVDs might look on a more revealing high-quality display...



As an example, just imagine a system with a 20 decibel suck-out between 60-100 Hz. In this case, just about everything would sound the same (anemic).


Yes, everything would sound anemic, no matter how much the bass/lfe is turned up. Trying to turn up the bass would just over-drive the amp. And in that case, optimizing the sub placement would be first, then adding bass traps and eq'ing the sub, could be done to get more optimal, flat(ter) response. Making the room/acoustics optimal and making sure the output matches the input with regards to bass and volume means that what is heard is what is supposed to be heard.

Here's another common example: with a sub in a certain place in a room, there is a 15dB peak from 70-90Hz, and a 10dB dip from 45-60Hz. Music track A has bass that hits mainly around 80Hz, so the bass sounds boomy and the listener has to turn the bass down to keep from getting a headache. On the next track, most of the bass is around 50-60Hz. The bass sounds weak, so the listener boosts the bass until it sounds right. The listener ends up adjusting the bass depending on the source material. And that listener is told that movie X has great bass, but watches the movie and is left unimpressed. But the movie's bass was mainly in the 45-60Hz range and therefore the bass came out only 1/2 to 1/3 as loud as it should have been. The listener watches movie Y and thinks it has great bass, but it turns out the bass was just average, and only seemed great because it was 2-3x as loud as it should have been because it was mainly focused in the 70-90Hz range. With this kind of environment, the listener can never know how much bass any given material is really supposed to have or what the bass is really supposed to sound like.

Dibenz and Cyber ... Please take the room treatment vs. recording argument elsewhere. This thread is long enough without an off topic argument being pursued. Thanks ! :)

Sorry, craig. :D

Craig, I'm currently running a HSU STF-2, after seeing the reviews on the eD and wanting a little bit more down low, I'm wondering if I would be better of selling my STF-2 or having both. Any ideas? Obviously both would fill a room with SPL at said HZ better than one, but the eD would be filling the bottom end on its own extension wise as the STF-2 I don't think will get as low or loud as the charts you have posted, but my thoughts would be most movies and music are going to be in the 25hz and up range except for some "moments" So possibly nearfield with the eD to get the punch down low, and the STF can still fill the rest of the room for the other off axis listeners. I'm probably crazy :)

heck i'd just appreciate a straight up a2-300 vs. STF-2 comparo. 70/30 music to movies. i can't pony up for 2 :p

Based on the graphs there might not be alot of comparisons, the eD looks like it reaches low and is loud, now the STF-2 is no slouch don't get me wrong, its on par with the PB-10 except for extension.. so if your digging low and don't have either of the two the eD is the way to go... For me the STF is popular enough to sale, but I'd rather have two if it will work out positive.

Dibenz and Cyber ... Please take the room treatment vs. recording argument elsewhere. This thread is long enough without an off topic argument being pursued. Thanks ! :)

Aww c'mon, it was such a good argument! (I always enjoy a debate with a very knowledgeable individual). But it is way off topic, which is why I apologized at the top of one of my previous posts. Anyway, sorry again.
Also, I am one of the few members who has not thanked Craigsub for his rigorous and exemplary work. So, I would like to say: thank you Craigsub for bringing us all together, and helping us find direction in our quest for the ultimate low frequency experience.

Based on the graphs there might not be alot of comparisons, the eD looks like it reaches low and is loud, now the STF-2 is no slouch don't get me wrong, its on par with the PB-10 except for extension.. so if your digging low and don't have either of the two the eD is the way to go... For me the STF is popular enough to sale, but I'd rather have two if it will work out positive.

For a first crack at the home audio sub, eD made an impressive product.

For a first crack at the home audio sub, eD made an impressive product.

I wasn't surprised that ED came out with such a good HT sub. Coming from the car audio business I only heard good things about their products.


Ian

ED has started to add SPL charts as of My 5th...not every sub has 1 in their pic gallery.

...I am one of the few members who has not thanked Craigsub for his rigorous and exemplary work. So, I would like to say: thank you Craigsub for bringing us all together, and helping us find direction in our quest for the ultimate low frequency experience.

Yes, indeed. Two things made me pull the trigger on MK3. Craigsub's ranking (and other professional reviews, of course) clearly makes for a great value proposition. Then, Hsu's father's day promotion (which essentially paid for shipping) cinched the deal for me. I'm convinced you can't get a better sub at this pricing level. I only wished it was a tad smaller.

Another amazing thing about Hsu is their efficiency. I placed the order Monday night late. Got a fedex tracking number the very next day and received it today! Wow!

Did you go with the plain MK3 or did you get the HO or turbo? Too many decisions.

Did you go with the plain MK3 or did you get the HO or turbo? Too many decisions.

I went with the plain MK3. This is my first sub and hopefully my last. I like good sound but not crazy like some. :D

I went with the plain MK3. This is my first sub and hopefully my last. I like good sound but not crazy like some. :D
Give it time... that will change. You'll be crazy too :eek: !

I just heard about the elemental designs A2-300 and A3-300. How does this compare to the Klipsch RW12. That is what I have right now. Eventually, I am thinking of upgrading to two subs (we have a large L shaped home theatre room). My H/K AVR 745 supports two sub pre-outs. Should I sell the RW12 and get two of the eD ones. A2-300 or is the A3-300 worth $100 more ($200 more for 2 of them).

I would be using them 50-50 for HT and music.

I went with the plain MK3. This is my first sub and hopefully my last. I like good sound but not crazy like some. :D

i didn't feel crazy when i bought my first sub but it's like crack :D

Most people turn crazy while searching for the latest and greatest - at a forum like this. I'm not going to fall into the same trap. I will tune out the forum chat and the rankings and the shootouts. :p

bgillyjcu: You mentioned some months back that you would turn your SVS sub's level down by 3dB to make it run flat with your speakers, but you'd actually have to turn it down 7dB to get it to run flat. Since you were apparently running it that much hot according to Ed. That might seem like quite a bit, but look at it this way, the bass will be much closer to what is accurate in those movies and you'll also be able to turn up the master volume louder, if you want to, since you'll have those 7dB back in reserve where they belong. :)

Most people turn crazy while searching for the latest and greatest - at a forum like this. I'm not going to fall into the same trap. I will tune out the forum chat and the rankings and the shootouts. :p A wise man! (Woman?) I keep telling myself to do the same, but here I am, like a crazed addict... :rolleyes:

Wow, somebody's got to get ahold of that Elemental Design dual 15" sub. That baby has got SVS PB-12/Ultra-2 written all over it it. Could be a real contender at that price.

Just wanted to thank everyone for this thread. My HSU VTF 3.3 fit in my budget and delievered on performance in a very large room.

I will say that the sub is bigger than I expected. I'm not sure how big some of the other subwoofer cabinets are on the rankings but this one may not pass the wife test for everyone if you are putting it somewhere conspicuous.

Wow, somebody's got to get ahold of that Elemental Design dual 15" sub. That baby has got SVS PB-12/Ultra-2 written all over it it. Could be a real contender at that price.

For this Fall's shootout, look for the following:

Elemental Designs Dual 15 or Dual 18
SVS PB-13 Ultra
AV123 BMF

All three in a high power shootout.

Wow, somebody's got to get ahold of that Elemental Design dual 15" sub. That baby has got SVS PB-12/Ultra-2 written all over it it. Could be a real contender at that price.

I think that the ED A7-600 dual 12 might be able to compete with the SVS subs. For $1100 shipped, that's not bad at all.
I also heard that ED is doing a dual 18 inch Sub!

For this Fall's shootout, look for the following:

Elemental Designs Dual 15 or Dual 18
SVS PB-13 Ultra
AV123 BMF

All three in a high power shootout.

I can't wait for that one Craig. Any chance of you getting the ED A7-600 dual 12 sub? I am looking at spending around $1000 but would stretch it to $1100 if it really delivered.

For this Fall's shootout, look for the following:

Elemental Designs Dual 15 or Dual 18
SVS PB-13 Ultra
AV123 BMF

All three in a high power shootout.

I would hate to be your neighbor :).

someone say dual 18"?

http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?t=38165

I ordered the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus subwoofer. It should arrive this week. :cool: But it'll do little good until I get my receiver (still on preorder) and speakers.

For this Fall's shootout, look for the following:

Elemental Designs Dual 15 or Dual 18
SVS PB-13 Ultra
AV123 BMF

All three in a high power shootout.
Shoot Craig that is going to be awesome!!!!! Can't wait for the results. You should get a raise...........LOL!!!! :p :p No really we appreciate your hard work and dedication.

For this Fall's shootout, look for the following:

Elemental Designs Dual 15 or Dual 18
SVS PB-13 Ultra
AV123 BMF

All three in a high power shootout.


Submersive?, or did I completely miss it and you've already tested one?

Submersive?, or did I completely miss it and you've already tested one?

The SUBmersive has a standing invite, as soon as Mark catches up with demand ... :)

As promised here's my subjective findings on these two nice subs. This is just my opinion and I have no affiliation with either SVS or Hsu.

On fit and finish, the SVS seemed to have a bit more quality. The controls were laid out simply and elegantly, and looked like it was assembled with superb fit and finish.

On power I gave the nod to the HSU. With 1 port open (maximum extension mode)at -5 sub out (-10 to +10 possibility) running hot at about 2-3db (78) the 3.3 gain output was at 10:00 while the SVS gain output was at 1:00 to achieve approximately the same SPL. In maximum output mode the difference is even greater as the Hsu is just plain loud.

As far as low extension goes, I found them to be pretty much equals although what I heard was different. The SVS had more rumble and slightly slower while the Hsu seemed to have more punch and was a tad bit faster. It's kinda like a George Forman right (brute force) vs an Ali right (more finese) They both will hurt and knock you out, but in distinctly different ways.

In the mid to high end frequencies the Hsu really shined with more SPL (even in the extended mode) and real power punch in the maximum output mode.

In the end it just comes down to your personal preference. Not to sound like a broken record, but the SVS is for those who want their low end delivered with brute force, while the Hsu delivers it's goods with power, punch, and speed.

I did find out describing what you are hearing is really difficult and my hat is off to Craig and others who have attempted to articulate what they hear into words for all of us to benefit from.

I am now debating on what to do. Maybe I will keep both and use the SVS for extension and the Hsu for the mid to high bass. There is also the possibility one or the other will go up for sale. I live in Phoenix if anyone is interested.

Don't know if I missed this somewhere but did you get the turbo?

Don't know if I missed this somewhere but did you get the turbo?

I did get the turbo...the whole deal for $696 including turbo. However, I am in the process of having tile put in throughout the house, consequently, my entire house is torn apart and I have not been able to try it out. I hope to hook everything back up sometime next week. I'll update you then.

[QUOTE=benchlegs]I did get the turbo...the whole deal for $696 including turbo. QUOTE]
How'd you get that price? i'm reading that most people are having to pay 799 to get the turbo. but only 629 w/o??

[QUOTE=benchlegs]I did get the turbo...the whole deal for $696 including turbo. QUOTE]
How'd you get that price? i'm reading that most people are having to pay 799 to get the turbo. but only 629 w/o??

I couldn't sleep one night, so I got online probably around 4:30am. Just happened to go to the Hsu site and went to the 3.3 I had been looking at it for a while and much to my amazement the price was only $596. I refreshed the screen because I thought something must be wrong, but it wasn't so I immediately bought it. The turbo was only $100 more when you buy a sub, henchforth the $696 price.

Hsu told me their web guys made a mistake and accidently took off 15% instead of the current Father's Day offer instead of 10% off.

I have since returned my SVS PB12-NSD in favor of the 3.3 turbo for it's sound, versatility and punch.

Bummer, Benchlegs, I guess you didn't read the private message I sent on 5-28, I would have taken that SVS off your hands here in Phoenix.

Bummer, Benchlegs, I guess you didn't read the private message I sent on 5-28, I would have taken that SVS off your hands here in Phoenix.

Never got it, sorry.

They never responded to my emails. It may be they are really busy.


Thats funny..cause I'm not getting any response from HSU. I went on Edesign's website and did the live chat with no problem. I sent HSU 3 emails starting last week with no reply yet. The funny thing is, I have been leaning toward the VTF-3 MK 3 w/o turbo, but now I think I am going to try the Ed A3-300. Its only $450 shipped, 350W and the A2-300 seemed to rank pretty high. So I figure I might give this one a shot.

I did get the turbo...the whole deal for $696 including turbo. However, I am in the process of having tile put in throughout the house, consequently, my entire house is torn apart and I have not been able to try it out. I hope to hook everything back up sometime next week. I'll update you then.

So have you got a chance to try it out yet?

I am very interested in your opinion about it as I owned the SVS PB12-NSD for about a month and now have the PB10-NSD. Would like to know how you feel the HSU compares to the SVS as I was extremely impressed with the PB12-NSD. Can't wait to hear your impressions.

I'll be looking forward to the responses here as well, as I have a friend finishing a basement HT, and he is looking for sub recommendations in this approximate price range. I am weighing whether to recommend the PB12-NSD, the 3.3 w/turbo or the A5-300.

Tim

I'll be looking forward to the responses here as well, as I have a friend finishing a basement HT, and he is looking for sub recommendations in this approximate price range. I am weighing whether to recommend the PB12-NSD, the 3.3 w/turbo or the A5-300.

Tim

All very good options.

The SUBmersive has a standing invite, as soon as Mark catches up with demand ... :)

I would like to pit my sealed dual 15" against the Submersive. Dual TC-3000 15" in 8cu ft driven by a XTi4000. I wonder who outdisplaces who.... :p

I'll be looking forward to the responses here as well, as I have a friend finishing a basement HT, and he is looking for sub recommendations in this approximate price range. I am weighing whether to recommend the PB12-NSD, the 3.3 w/turbo or the A5-300.

Tim

I am still unable to test this turbo, but if you read my earlier post regarding the PB12-NSD and the non turbo VTF3 MK3, you'll get an idea of my opinion. I think the 2 are very comparable on the low end albeit different sounding. It's in the mid to high bass area that the Hsu takes over. For me personally I liked the flexibility of the 3.3 regarding which mode to use...max extension or max output. I sometimes watch HBO and Starz movies which are not broadcast in DD, just DPL II which tends to have more mid to high bass and less if any deep bass. That's when the max output flexibility really comes in handy.

It will be interesting to see how the mids and highs sound with the turbo attached. Stay tuned.

So have you got a chance to try it out yet?

I am very interested in your opinion about it as I owned the SVS PB12-NSD for about a month and now have the PB10-NSD. Would like to know how you feel the HSU compares to the SVS as I was extremely impressed with the PB12-NSD. Can't wait to hear your impressions.

Hey Jeff...why did you part with the PB12 in favor of the 10?

I am still unable to test this turbo, but if you read my earlier post regarding the PB12-NSD and the non turbo VTF3 MK3, you'll get an idea of my opinion. I think the 2 are very comparable on the low end albeit different sounding. It's in the mid to high bass area that the Hsu takes over. For me personally I liked the flexibility of the 3.3 regarding which mode to use...max extension or max output. I sometimes watch HBO and Starz movies which are not broadcast in DD, just DPL II which tends to have more mid to high bass and less if any deep bass. That's when the max output flexibility really comes in handy.

It will be interesting to see how the mids and highs sound with the turbo attached. Stay tuned.

You must not be watching HBO HD as that is broadcast in DD not PLII :D

I have since returned my SVS PB12-NSD in favor of the 3.3 turbo for it's sound, versatility and punch.

Thank you very much benchlegs, I really appreciate the kind words about the product!

I would say that in most cases, it would be best to use the VTF-3 Mk3 in maximum output mode. With pipe organ music and movies that contain significant deep bass impact, then turbocharger would work great. To really get the most out of a VTF-3 Mk3 turbo, I would recommend trying an MBM-12 at some point in the future. This way you will get the best of both worlds with respect to huge mid-bass dynamics and punch and very strong deep bass with minimal port noise and output compression. Just recently one of our customers adding the MBM to his VTF-3 Mk3/t, and he was pretty floored by the results.

Thanks again!

You must not be watching HBO HD as that is broadcast in DD not PLII :D


That's interesting. I have DTV and receive standard def HBO in DD. Hmmmm..................


http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c160/mailiang/hmmmm.gif


Ian :D

You must not be watching HBO HD as that is broadcast in DD not PLII :D

Right now I have Cox Cable and actually still have analog signal on stations 1 through 100. It is only after 100 that they even become digital!

I'm patiently waiting for DTV to go 150 channels in HD. The plan is to buy a new HD TV and switch to DTV.

Thank you very much benchlegs, I really appreciate the kind words about the product!

I would say that in most cases, it would be best to use the VTF-3 Mk3 in maximum output mode. With pipe organ music and movies that contain significant deep bass impact, then turbocharger would work great. To really get the most out of a VTF-3 Mk3 turbo, I would recommend trying an MBM-12 at some point in the future. This way you will get the best of both worlds with respect to huge mid-bass dynamics and punch and very strong deep bass with minimal port noise and output compression. Just recently one of our customers adding the MBM to his VTF-3 Mk3/t, and he was pretty floored by the results.

Thanks again!

Peter:
Thanks for the info. I will certainly consider an MBM-12 in the furture.

I have another question regarding inputs. Hsu and others mfgs. suggest using only 1 (left or right) low level input. My first Velo needed a y splitter for both inputs. They stated there might be a loss of SPL. So what are the effects (positive or negative) of using a y splitter for both L and R inputs on a VTF 3.3?

I haven't thought about subs in a long time, so excuse me for coming to the party late. Where are the Bag End Infra 18 and Paradigm Servo?

I haven't thought about subs in a long time, so excuse me for coming to the party late. Where are the Bag End Infra 18 and Paradigm Servo?
i would also be curious about that.

Judging by past discussions of those subs on this forum, the Paradigm is very well regarded here and the Bag End is not.

While the Bag End isn't ultra loud, it is supposed to be fairly good from a qualitative standpoint.

Besides, if my humble SVS PB10 rips it a new one, that'll make me feel a little better :p

Ok please don't flame me on this one. I am kind of new to the audio game(especially subs). Have the lower end subs ever been rated against the standout subs. For example I had a Best Buy special Yamaha YST-215 sub. I sold it in favor of an SVS PB10. I don't have the SVS sub yet though. I was wondering how the yamaha would rate against the svs. Or how bout the Bic Acoustic? How does it compare to the SVS PB10?

There are a lot of people who just go to Best Buy and grab the first sub that fits their budget because they don't know any better. It would be good to know how big a difference there is between these subs and the real thing.

Ok please don't flame me on this one. I am kind of new to the audio game(especially subs). Have the lower end subs ever been rated against the standout subs. For example I had a Best Buy special Yamaha YST-215 sub. I sold it in favor of an SVS PB10. I don't have the SVS sub yet though. I was wondering how the yamaha would rate against the svs. Or how bout the Bic Acoustic? How does it compare to the SVS PB10?

There are a lot of people who just go to Best Buy and grab the first sub that fits their budget because they don't know any better. It would be good to know how big a difference there is between these subs and the real thing.

The PB10 signifigantly outperforms the H-100, and as it should for the $200 difference.

The PB10 and the Elemental Designs A2-300 are a step above the entry level subwoofer, and both deliver true 18 Hz and up bass.

You ordered a great product, especially for the $$$. Just make sure to calibrate it properly - if you don't have an SPL meter from Radio Shack, order one, and also drop Ed Mullen a line at SVS for a link to his guide for properly setting up a sub.

The PB10 signifigantly outperforms the H-100, and as it should for the $200 difference.

The PB10 and the Elemental Designs A2-300 are a step above the entry level subwoofer, and both deliver true 18 Hz and up bass.

You ordered a great product, especially for the $$$. Just make sure to calibrate it properly - if you don't have an SPL meter from Radio Shack, order one, and also drop Ed Mullen a line at SVS for a link to his guide for properly setting up a sub.

Yea I think I got a decent deal on the sub. I was able to get it used in mint condition for $95. $80 of that was in shipping alone! I fully expect it to dust my Yamaha I was just wondering how those lower end subs would rate. Or if they would even get a rating at all. My Yamaha would peak at 85 DB at 60 Hz and drop off to below 60 DB at 35 Hz and 70 Hz! That is not much useful range now is it? :o

The guy I sold the Yamaha to was so excited about the improvement the Yamaha gave him over his passive sub that he emailed me and told me how much he was enjoying it. Funny how he probably has no idea what a real sub could sound like. In fact I don’t think I really know either! Heck I bought the Yamaha in the first place and lived with it for 3 years. At least you guys let me know what the truth is. Thanks for that!

I use the radio shack SPL and I have the correction factors so I should be able to optimize the sub pretty well. I will let you know how it works out. Do you have Ed’s URL handy? I am not sure I will get a chance to contact him before I get the sub tomorrow.

You bought a mint PB10 for $15 plus shipping ? That is an incredible price.

Here is Ed's email: edm@svsound.com

You bought a mint PB10 for $15 plus shipping ? That is an incredible price.

Here is Ed's email: edm@svsound.com Or you could use this link (http://www.robbroy.net/HT/SubwooferErrors.cfm) to access Ed's basic suggestions on things to look out for.

A PB10 for $15?? :eek: That's close to a felony is 36 states! ;)

Sounds like an angry ex-wife selling off her ex-husband's favorite possesions cheap for revenge.

I was able to get it used in mint condition for $95. $80 of that was in shipping

I guess there's a ....... after all !



Ian :D

Sorry $395. My stupid keyboard button was sticking. Yea if I had gotten it for $15 then that would have been a really, really good deal. Sorry for the confusion. I was too busy too proof read it.

Oh yea if I don't get the sub into the enclosure in my entertainment center by the time my wife gets home tomorrow then I gaurantee she will be putting my new sub up on e-bay with a $15 buy it now option! Hopefully, my slip up in the first post isn't foreshadowing!

Oh yea if I don't get the sub into the enclosure in my entertainment center by the time my wife gets home tomorrow then I gaurantee she will be putting my new sub up on e-bay with a $15 buy it now option! Hopefully, my slip up in the first post isn't foreshadowing!


If she does, PM me Please!


Ian :D

I can see the e-bay listing now!

One really big and heavy F*&*$*$ black box for sale. This Da*n thing just showed up and it weighs a freak’n ton! If you want it come and get it. Oh yea, winner of the auction will receive one husband also. Husband likes electronics and all sports but has upgrade fever! First one with $15 gets it all!

Finally got a Trinity in my showroom today. I'll unpack it this weekend. But here is a picture of it compared to the Supercube 1 which is no slouch. Wow, its huge....all 175 lbs of it !! I'll do my best to compare it to my DD18. Should be interesting.