TO OVALNUT AND JEFFERY

VTF 3.3 UPDATE:
I've been experimenting with nearfield placement setting the VTF-3.3 turbo right against the back side of my listening couch, woofer facing into the couch with about 4" clearance. In this position, movies have major impact. The sound waves go through your body for a most satisfying HT experience. I removed the turbo and set the sub to 18hz tuning with one port plugged. The sound was not as strong, but good non the less. I then listened with no turbo in the maximum output mode (both ports open). The overall dynamics and power in this mode are fantastic. To be frank, I preferred the max output/no turbo mode to using the turbo, at least in this nearfield setting. With nearfield placement you’ll get more impact and vibration directly on you. There definitely is a lack of really low bass, but the other 95% of the LFE was just incredible with tremendous power and punch. I watched POTC (for the 10th time) again switching modes with nearfield placement, and continued to prefer the max output mode. After reading so many posts about everyone wanting the below 20hz sound, I guess I am the exception to the rule. When I took readings, the max output SPL was dead even with the turbo SPL at 20HZ. It’s down from there where the turbo really kicks in and the max output drops off quickly. But 20HZ and up, it’s no contest…the max output mode is just plain awesome!

VS PB12-NSD
I have already stated in past posts how the 3.3 seems to me to be more powerful and dynamic than the PB12-NSD, while at the same time cleaner and more articulate. Whether in max ouput mode or with turbo attached in max extension, the 3mk3 always sounds powerful. It is also very clear that the 3.3 has a more efficient driver, which translates to more headroom. I had to turn both my preamp out setting and sub gain setting considerably up to get the same SPL from the SVS as the Hsu.

If you listen to a lot of music, definitely consider the Hsu or move up to a better SVS. For HT, I preferred the Hsu’s ability to transfer the various LFE effects and bass tones. SVS makes an excellent sub, however, for my money, the Hsu does everything it does AND MORE. The variable tune Hsu in 22hz max output mode, coupled with two 4" ports instead of the single one on the SVS, gives the VTF-3mk3 a punchier, more powerful sound to me. And when you’re in the mood for some really low bass, just flip the switch, pop in the port plug or the Turbo and shazaam, you’ve got the below 20hz LFE you’re looking for. For me at $696 including turbo, it was a no brainer.

Benchlegs, that was really great comparative review, thank you for sharing it. Your listening observations coincide exactly with my own in every way, some of which I posted a few months back (I also have both the HSU 3.3 and the SVS 12NSD).

I am craving the dynamics of the max output mode along with the room-rattling sub-20hz bass of the max extension mode, so on Monday I have a 2nd 3.3 arriving that I will stack on my current one to produce a +6db increase in max spl across the frequency spectrum, more air being energized from an additional 12" woofer, and even lower distortion. I really hope this gives me the best of both worlds!

So do you see any need for the HO version of the VTF3.3 with turbo? Is the bigger/badder one not always best?

When it comes to subs, one generality that almost always fits is that all things being equal, bigger and badder means better.

So do you see any need for the HO version of the VTF3.3 with turbo? Is the bigger/badder one not always best?

The 3HO and 3.3 share the same cabinet size and same dual 4" ports. HSU says the HO's driver reproduces a bit more detail with lower distortion in the very deepest bass, but that the 3.3 has a slight advantage in punch and max SPL in the midbass. In Craigsub's tests earlier in this thread he found the HO to be a bit more articulate and cleaner in the deep bass thus he rates it a few points higher than the HO, but considering the price difference many people feel the 3.3 is the better bang for the buck.

Gents, I just communicated with a REAL Definitive Technology dealer, and we are arranging to purchase a Trinity for the shootout.

Here are the Vitals:


Dimensions:18" W x 18" D x 31-3/4" H
Frequency Response: 10 Hz — 200Hz
Driver Complement: Two 14" long-throw SuperCube Technology subwoofers coupled to four 14" infrasonic radiators
Built-in Amplifier: 2000 watts Digitally-Coupled Class D Amplifier
Low Pass Crossover: 24 dB/octave continuously adjustable variable (40 —150 Hz) plus Unfiltered LFE direct coupled input
High Pass Crossover: 12dB/octave continuously variable (40 — 150hz)
Speaker level: 6 dB octave (80 Hz)
Finish: Piano gloss black
Weight: 175 lbs.
Suggested Retail: $2999 ea.

Gents, I just communicated with a REAL Definitive Technology dealer, and we are arranging to purchase a Trinity for the shootout.

Here are the Vitals:


Dimensions:18" W x 18" D x 31-3/4" H
Frequency Response: 10 Hz — 200Hz
Driver Complement: Two 14" long-throw SuperCube Technology subwoofers coupled to four 14" infrasonic radiators
Built-in Amplifier: 2000 watts Digitally-Coupled Class D Amplifier
Low Pass Crossover: 24 dB/octave continuously adjustable variable (40 —150 Hz) plus Unfiltered LFE direct coupled input
High Pass Crossover: 12dB/octave continuously variable (40 — 150hz)
Speaker level: 6 dB octave (80 Hz)
Finish: Piano gloss black
Weight: 175 lbs.
Suggested Retail: $2999 ea.


Cool. Good timing.....I just posted that I just got my hands on one for the first time (see picture above). I'm hoping to have some time tomorrow to play around with it and get it humming. It's a beast.

Benchlegs, that was really great comparative review, thank you for sharing it. Your listening observations coincide exactly with my own in every way, some of which I posted a few months back (I also have both the HSU 3.3 and the SVS 12NSD).

I am craving the dynamics of the max output mode along with the room-rattling sub-20hz bass of the max extension mode, so on Monday I have a 2nd 3.3 arriving that I will stack on my current one to produce a +6db increase in max spl across the frequency spectrum, more air being energized from an additional 12" woofer, and even lower distortion. I really hope this gives me the best of both worlds!

Thanks rossandwendy. I am glad to know there is someone else out there who appreciates the 3.3 in it's output mode. It's really hard to describe the difference in the bass impact of output vs extension. The sounds of this sub when in output mode just seem to explode.

I forgot ... I said "Gents" ... about the subwoofer.

Gina ... This test is for you ! :D

Gents, I just communicated with a REAL Definitive Technology dealer, and we are arranging to purchase a Trinity for the shootout.

Here are the Vitals:


Dimensions:18" W x 18" D x 31-3/4" H
Frequency Response: 10 Hz — 200Hz
Driver Complement: Two 14" long-throw SuperCube Technology subwoofers coupled to four 14" infrasonic radiators
Built-in Amplifier: 2000 watts Digitally-Coupled Class D Amplifier
Low Pass Crossover: 24 dB/octave continuously adjustable variable (40 —150 Hz) plus Unfiltered LFE direct coupled input
High Pass Crossover: 12dB/octave continuously variable (40 — 150hz)
Speaker level: 6 dB octave (80 Hz)
Finish: Piano gloss black
Weight: 175 lbs.
Suggested Retail: $2999 ea.

cool, can't wait to see how it does

by the way, do you get more SPL's from the drivers or from the radiators

sorry if that's a dumb question :o

cool, can't wait to see how it does

by the way, do you get more SPL's from the drivers or from the radiators

sorry if that's a dumb question :o

That is frequency dependent .... the Passive radiators, in the case of the Trinity, are likely handling bass notes from 16 to about 24 Hz ... with the active drivers taking over above that.

It is not a "brick wall" either ... the deeper into the bass, the more the radiators are handling.

Thanks rossandwendy. I am glad to know there is someone else out there who appreciates the 3.3 in it's output mode. It's really hard to describe the difference in the bass impact of output vs extension. The sounds of this sub when in output mode just seem to explode.
I've actually gone back to max output myself. we watched the guardian last night again and i think i have a helicopter to clean out of my theater.................

Well I finally did it. I just replaced my old Yamaha YST-215 with a used PB-10(I couldn’t afford brand new). The install required taking the TV and top deck off but I got it in there. My wife laughed at me when she first saw the sub sitting next to the entertainment center! She said “There is no way that is going to fit in there! And if it doesn’t then it goes up on ebay!” There was less than 1/8 of an inch clearance between the top of the sub and the bottom of the top deck. How’s that for cutting it close? Sorry you guys didn’t get your $15 buy it now option.

I know this isn’t the ideal position but sometimes the WAF is the most important thing. Anyway I am loving my new sub. The difference between it and the Yamaha is astounding. I ran a frequency sweep with it in the entertainment center and it was within 3 DB all the way up to 80 Hz which is perfect for my needs. My Yamaha used to vary by more than 25 DB in that same sweep!

I don’t even notice the sub now. It just blends in with the other speakers and now everything sounds rock solid and crisp. Not over bloated and loud. My wife didn’t complain or ask to turn the night mode on even once tonight. That is a victory in my book! I guess my system is finally complete and I have been cured of upgrade-itis. Thanks SVS and thanks to everyone who helped me find the perfect sub! Pics below.

Just look at the difference between the Yamaha’s size and the SVS

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=83757

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=83758

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=83759

Wow, perfect fit!

...snip...

My wife laughed at me when she first saw the sub sitting next to the entertainment center! She said “There is no way that is going to fit in there! And if it doesn’t then it goes up on ebay!” There was less than 1/8 of an inch clearance between the top of the sub and the bottom of the top deck. How’s that for cutting it close? Sorry you guys didn’t get your $15 buy it now option.



Ebay, that's cold. :eek: :D

Well I finally did it. I just replaced my old Yamaha YST-215 with a used PB-10(I couldn’t afford brand new). The install required taking the TV and top deck off but I got it in there. My wife laughed at me when she first saw the sub sitting next to the entertainment center! She said “There is no way that is going to fit in there! And if it doesn’t then it goes up on ebay!” There was less than 1/8 of an inch clearance between the top of the sub and the bottom of the top deck. How’s that for cutting it close? Sorry you guys didn’t get your $15 buy it now option.

I know this isn’t the ideal position but sometimes the WAF is the most important thing. Anyway I am loving my new sub. The difference between it and the Yamaha is astounding. I ran a frequency sweep with it in the entertainment center and it was within 3 DB all the way up to 80 Hz which is perfect for my needs. My Yamaha used to vary by more than 25 DB in that same sweep!

I don’t even notice the sub now. It just blends in with the other speakers and now everything sounds rock solid and crisp. Not over bloated and loud. My wife didn’t complain or ask to turn the night mode on even once tonight. That is a victory in my book! I guess my system is finally complete and I have been cured of upgrade-itis. Thanks SVS and thanks to everyone who helped me find the perfect sub! Pics below.

Just look at the difference between the Yamaha’s size and the SVS

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=83757

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=83758

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=83759

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there is no cure for upgradeitis. :o

Benchlegs, that was really great comparative review, thank you for sharing it. Your listening observations coincide exactly with my own in every way, some of which I posted a few months back (I also have both the HSU 3.3 and the SVS 12NSD).

I am craving the dynamics of the max output mode along with the room-rattling sub-20hz bass of the max extension mode, so on Monday I have a 2nd 3.3 arriving that I will stack on my current one to produce a +6db increase in max spl across the frequency spectrum, more air being energized from an additional 12" woofer, and even lower distortion. I really hope this gives me the best of both worlds!

Since you have a second one coming might I suggest that you try one in max output and one in max extension. This way you will have the best of both worlds, with my dual HO's, non co-located, I have mine that way and I love it. In my space, 6000 cuft, I am flat to 14Hz at 75db, if I run both in max extension I am flat to 13Hz at 75db but I lose a few db higher up.

Good luck :D

Thanks rossandwendy. I am glad to know there is someone else out there who appreciates the 3.3 in it's output mode. It's really hard to describe the difference in the bass impact of output vs extension. The sounds of this sub when in output mode just seem to explode.

Yeah, reading your post was uncanny as it reflected my exact thoughts reagrding the sound of my 3.3 and 12NSD. You are right, the max outut mode on the 3.3 is just incredible, with so much dynamic impact and effortless muscle. Still, comparing output vs. extension modes on something like WOTW, I really like the deep infrasonic rumblings I get in max extension yet there is noticeably less dynamics in that mode in my large open room, so really hope the two co-located 3.3's in max extension will give me the best of both.

Since you have a second one coming might I suggest that you try one in max output and one in max extension. This way you will have the best of both worlds, with my dual HO's, non co-located, I have mine that way and I love it. In my space, 6000 cuft, I am flat to 14Hz at 75db, if I run both in max extension I am flat to 13Hz at 75db but I lose a few db higher up.

Good luck :D

Interesting Kevin12586, I will try that setup as well. I like the idea of co-located units in order to gain the full 6db in increased headroom, but I should also experiment with non-colocation (with a roughly 3db headroom gain) in order to have a potentially smoother frequency response, assuming I can get the placement and phase issues just right.

Interesting Kevin12586, I will try that setup as well. I like the idea of co-located units in order to gain the full 6db in increased headroom, but I should also experiemt with non-colocation (with a roughly 3db headroom gain) in order to have a potentially smoother frequency response, assuming I can get the placement and phase issues just right.

REW helped me immensly getting them both dialed in and in the best spots. :D

Well I finally did it. I just replaced my old Yamaha YST-215 with a used PB-10(I couldn’t afford brand new). The install required taking the TV and top deck off but I got it in there. My wife laughed at me when she first saw the sub sitting next to the entertainment center! She said “There is no way that is going to fit in there! And if it doesn’t then it goes up on ebay!” There was less than 1/8 of an inch clearance between the top of the sub and the bottom of the top deck. How’s that for cutting it close? Sorry you guys didn’t get your $15 buy it now option.

I know this isn’t the ideal position but sometimes the WAF is the most important thing. Anyway I am loving my new sub. The difference between it and the Yamaha is astounding. I ran a frequency sweep with it in the entertainment center and it was within 3 DB all the way up to 80 Hz which is perfect for my needs. My Yamaha used to vary by more than 25 DB in that same sweep!

I don’t even notice the sub now. It just blends in with the other speakers and now everything sounds rock solid and crisp. Not over bloated and loud. My wife didn’t complain or ask to turn the night mode on even once tonight. That is a victory in my book! I guess my system is finally complete and I have been cured of upgrade-itis. Thanks SVS and thanks to everyone who helped me find the perfect sub! Pics below.

Just look at the difference between the Yamaha’s size and the SVS

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=83757

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=83758

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=83759
:cool: Nice fit. But doesn't an amplified sub need breathing room, i.e. ventilation space?

And breathing room for the port(s)?
Can you cut out the back panel in just that part of the entertainment center?

I did the same thing in my entertainment center when I had an HTPC there, and now the panel is still out for my X360 and PS3 there.

hey craig, did you ever test or plan on testing Velodyne's flagship Digital Drive 1812 Signature Edition ?

Thought I'd copy the list forward a few pages for convenience -- last updated 5/26/07:
. . . Here is an updated list:

JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points
Velodyne DD-18: 100 points
ACI Maestro: 97 points
JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo: 91 points
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points
Axiom EP-500: 90 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo: 88 points
SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points
SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo: 86 points
Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
Elemental Designs A2-300: 83 points
SVS PB10-NSD: 83 points
Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
BIC H-100: 78 points
Rocket Tyke: 60 points
. . . .

hey craig, did you ever test or plan on testing Velodyne's flagship Digital Drive 1812 Signature Edition ?

It is doubtful ... From what I have seen, I would buy 2 DD-18's. The 1812 is for the well funded audiophile, and is outside the bang for the buck arena ... same with the Gotham. I would buy 2 Fathom 113's ... but the Gotham is REALLY cool.

It is doubtful ... From what I have seen, I would buy 2 DD-18's. The 1812 is for the well funded audiophile, and is outside the bang for the buck arena ... same with the Gotham. I would buy 2 Fathom 113's ... but the Gotham is REALLY cool.


ah, ok, i knew the gotham was up there (like 7 grand?) but i have no clue what the 1812 costs

i wont even ask about the krell MRS then :D

although i'm dying to know how that krell sounds and tests. i wonder if they ever sold one :p

i have no clue what the krell retails for

if i ever come into some "F U" money, we'll have a party :D :D :D

Gents, I just communicated with a REAL Definitive Technology dealer, and we are arranging to purchase a Trinity for the shootout.

Here are the Vitals:


Dimensions:18" W x 18" D x 31-3/4" H
Frequency Response: 10 Hz — 200Hz
Driver Complement: Two 14" long-throw SuperCube Technology subwoofers coupled to four 14" infrasonic radiators
Built-in Amplifier: 2000 watts Digitally-Coupled Class D Amplifier
Low Pass Crossover: 24 dB/octave continuously adjustable variable (40 —150 Hz) plus Unfiltered LFE direct coupled input
High Pass Crossover: 12dB/octave continuously variable (40 — 150hz)
Speaker level: 6 dB octave (80 Hz)
Finish: Piano gloss black
Weight: 175 lbs.
Suggested Retail: $2999 ea.


Looking forward to this one.

Any update as to when it might come??

I would guess late next week for delivery of the Trinity. I am going to be off line until late Wednsday night, and hopefully will have a delivery date when I return.

I think we're all curious to see how this one performs. It should be a monster, but it will be interesting to see how close it can come to it's rather ambitious specs.

Seems like a cross between a BMF and a submersive.

Are the two powered drivers opposite each other or over/under?

I think we're all curious to see how this one performs. It should be a monster, but it will be interesting to see how close it can come to it's rather ambitious specs. Amen to that. I'm really looking forward to hearing what Craig has to say about this sub.

Seems like a cross between a BMF and a submersive. And for whatever reason, I'm fascinated by the concept of using active and passive radiators a la the BMF and Trinity. Eager to read/hear how both perform.

While the two rear/side PRs of the BMF work similarly to more common PR useage, the use of the front 18" PR is what makes the BMF quite a different animal when looking at real operating conditions and not just single test tones.

The dimensions of the Trinity make available internal volume very small for the numbers claimed, although the term "common room" and what is likely a burst condition leaves a lot of room for "creativity" in what they are actually specifying. :rolleyes:

And breathing room for the port(s)?... The PB10's port is in front, as is the driver, so that would not be a problem.

Everything is set on the Trinity ... shipping this beast is over $300 ... :eek:

Everything is set on the Trinity ... shipping this beast is over $300 ... :eek:

http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/11.gif

i don't know what kind of testing equipment this gentleman used but he claims he measured his trinity flat down to 14 Hz. outside

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10299311&&#post10299311

While the two rear/side PRs of the BMF work similarly to more common PR useage, the use of the front 18" PR is what makes the BMF quite a different animal when looking at real operating conditions and not just single test tones.

The dimensions of the Trinity make available internal volume very small for the numbers claimed, although the term "common room" and what is likely a burst condition leaves a lot of room for "creativity" in what they are actually specifying. :rolleyes:

what is a BMF ?

what is a BMF ?
It's kind of long, but worth the read
http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13824

It's kind of long, but worth the read
http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13824

thanks, what about the "submersive" i heard about?

thanks, what about the "submersive" i heard about?
I have a SubMersive. I like it very much
You can find some info here.
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/mb/seatonsound

Craigsub,

I have a rankings/ratings question. How does your formula work for multiple subs.

Lets say I have a sub that rates 90. What does 2 of them do? Or if I have one that ranks 80 and one that ranks 90, how would you combine them?

Also have you ever tested the Ultra/2?

Thanks

Craigsub,

I have a rankings/ratings question. How does your formula work for multiple subs.

Lets say I have a sub that rates 90. What does 2 of them do? Or if I have one that ranks 80 and one that ranks 90, how would you combine them?

Also have you ever tested the Ultra/2?

Thanks

I never tested the Ultra/2 ...

Depending on the subwoofer, you will see typically a 6 point jump when going to duals ... +/- 2 points ...

The PB10's port is in front, as is the driver, so that would not be a problem.

Yea I talked to SVS before I bought the sub. They said that the amp was a cool running amp and it did not require any ventilation. I cut the back of the entertainment center out anyway. I basically just hack sawed out a space that was the same size as the control panel on the back. It worked out really well. It almost seemed that the Pb-10 was designed to fit in that space.

The front firing front port was essential for my needs. It lost almost nothing going in that cubby as compared to the ideal location(corner of the room). I tested it there first.

Craig.... I'm a long time lurker and few time poster here but I'd like to get your opinion on how an M&K mx 350 or any of the M&ks would rate in your system. I understand they don't dig down quit as deep as soom but they seem to be accurate and hit pretty hard in the right room setup.

thanks

Tim

Tim ... M&K subs were some of the best sounding on the market. You are correct, they are not infrasonic killers, but they are great for the slam effect in the 25-50 Hz range.

AFter being appropriately chastised for thinking my current speakers include an integrated subwoofer on another thread.... I am looking for a sub to complement my current system and I want to stay around $500. The HSU VTF-2 MK 3 looks like a great value at $499. Are there other subs I should consider at this price point and what would be the pros/cons?

My current set-up includes BA VR965 fronts, a VRC center and four BravoII surrounds with a Denon 3805. However, I would like to get a versitile sub that would work well with other speaker set-ups as I would like to upgrade someday (the 965VRS are OK but have some draw backs in mid-range http://www.bostonacoustics.com/newproduct/7565NPA.pdf) for instance to a set of Paradigm Studio 60s + surrounds.

I listen to 70% music and 30% HT.

Thanks.

along the same line would be the outlaw lfm-1 plus for an additional $50. It has an additional 100 watts and some would consider the finish more appealing.

along the same line would be the outlaw lfm-1 plus for an additional $50. It has an additional 100 watts and some would consider the finish more appealing.
I got the Outlaw last month when it was $500 + shipping. So far, I'm running a 0.1 HTS, so I haven't tested it much, except playing CDs using just the sub. :D

My 5 speakers on order should arrive soon. :cool: Then I need to get speaker wires, banana plugs, a new sub (RCA cable) (currently using a short crappy one), and I'll be all set, at least from an audio PoV. :)

. So far, I'm running a 0.1 HTS, so I haven't tested it much, except playing CDs using just the sub. :D

:eek:

How do these compare to HSU and Outlaw?

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=102

If you read this entire thread, you'll find some info from craig about the eD subs. HA, just kidding, just go back to I think page 55 and after. He tested one and gave it a score that ranked it with an SVS.

:eek:
It's all about the bass, baby! But within the next few weeks, my 0.1 HTS should become 5.1 like most of the folks here. I can't play my sub too loud b/c the receiver is sitting right on top of it and it rattles the hell out of it. Once I get a longer sub (RCA) cable, I'll move the receiver in the TV rack. :cool:

I have a question for you all, Ive always been more of a videophile than an audiophile, but the more research i do and now that i already have my sammy 4661 purchased i need to work on my sound. I ordered a set of athena f2.2's for less than 200 for the pair. I have a jbl s-center laying around and some other surround speakers. My question is, should i pick up the av123 x-sub, or would i be better off looking at the a2-250 or trying to find a bic 100. I would like to spend around 100-300. I would say i watch movies 60% and music 40%, and the room size is about 14x15.

I have a question for you all, Ive always been more of a videophile than an audiophile, but the more research i do and now that i already have my sammy 4661 purchased i need to work on my sound. I ordered a set of athena f2.2's for less than 200 for the pair. I have a jbl s-center laying around and some other surround speakers. My question is, should i pick up the av123 x-sub, or would i be better off looking at the a2-250 or trying to find a bic 100. I would like to spend around 100-300. I would say i watch movies 60% and music 40%, and the room size is about 14x15.
The first thing I would do is not mix-and-match your 5 speakers. They should ideally be from the same make and even within the same model. You can mix-and-match the sub to the speakers if you want; that's kosher. If you're on a budget and can't/won't afford a set of 5 speakers, then you'll have to make do with the speakers you got. They won't sound horrible, but a careful listener will be able to tell they don't "match".

I've read the AVS123 8" x-sub is pretty good. Athena also makes a decent 10" sub; that's what my siblings and I got for my parents.

The first thing I would do is not mix-and-match your 5 speakers. They should ideally be from the same make and even within the same model. You can mix-and-match the sub to the speakers if you want; that's kosher. If you're on a budget and can't/won't afford a set of 5 speakers, then you'll have to make do with the speakers you got. They won't sound horrible, but a careful listener will be able to tell they don't "match".

I've read the AVS123 8" x-sub is pretty good. Athena also makes a decent 10" sub; that's what my siblings and I got for my parents.
Yea, i saw the athena 4100 sub for about 130ish, but heard warnings about athena subs. I'm in a bad spot because i need to upgrade everything but just cant afford it. I currently dont have a sub so thats why i was looking at the av123 x-sub.

Yea, i saw the athena 4100 sub for about 130ish, but heard warnings about athena subs. I'm in a bad spot because i need to upgrade everything but just cant afford it. I currently dont have a sub so thats why i was looking at the av123 x-sub.
The sub I got my parents isn't the 4100. I don't remember the model #, but I do know it has a 10" driver. I think it was ASP something. I'm flying over to their house next week, so I can check then.

Athena first came out with the AS-P300 (8") and AS-P400 (10"). Then came the AS-P4000 (10" update to AS-P400) and the AS-P6000 (12"). And most recently is the AS-P4100 (10").

I run two AS-P400s and am happy with them for what I paid. They don't go as low as the better subs but they sound great for music.

I wouldn't mind seeing one of these low cost subs reviewed to see how they compare to the SVS, Bic and X-subs.

Should i pick up the b1.2 bookshelves and the c1.2 center so everything matches? They can be had for 87 for a pair of b1.2's and 99 for the c1.2.

Should i pick up the b1.2 bookshelves and the c1.2 center so everything matches? They can be had for 87 for a pair of b1.2's and 99 for the c1.2.

If it's in your budget then I'd say it is a good idea.

Craigsub,
a) I hope whatever caused you to go to the hospital is long gone and past, here's to your health!

b) Thanks to everyone, I'm building my first "HT" and decided to go with the HSU VTF3-MK3 with turbo after reading (yes I read all) 60 pages. The work you've done cost me 50 dollars for a restocking fee but saved me over 500 easy!

Thanks for all the work and help you put out there Craig (and everyone that spends their time helping everyone else!) I would be SO lost without the insight many put up here!

Bayn, thanks for the kind words ... I have been 100% for about 6 weeks now. You should be pretty happy with a VTF-3.3 ... looking forward to reading your thoughts. :)

Bayn, thanks for the kind words ... I have been 100% for about 6 weeks now. You should be pretty happy with a VTF-3.3 ... looking forward to reading your thoughts. :)

Glad to hear that Craig :cool:

Athena first came out with the AS-P300 (8") and AS-P400 (10"). Then came the AS-P4000 (10" update to AS-P400) and the AS-P6000 (12"). And most recently is the AS-P4100 (10").

I run two AS-P400s and am happy with them for what I paid. They don't go as low as the better subs but they sound great for music.

I wouldn't mind seeing one of these low cost subs reviewed to see how they compare to the SVS, Bic and X-subs.
Ahh, that sounds familiar. I believe the sub we got our parents is the AS-P400 (10").

Ahh, that sounds familiar. I believe the sub we got our parents is the AS-P400 (10").
Thanks for your help guys, i actually think im picking up a hsu stf-1 for 150, any opinions on this sub, its my first real sub and from what i've read you really cant go wrong with hsu.

I have an STF-1 in my bedroom set-up, and like it a lot. It won't play as deep or as loud as the bigger subs, but it is very clean. Terrific for music. In a moderate sized room it seems bigger than it is. Although it won't rattle the walls when the really low stuff hits in a movie, it covers 98% of what you are likely to encounter. At that price, it's a steal.

I have an STF-1 in my bedroom set-up, and like it a lot. It won't play as deep or as loud as the bigger subs, but it is very clean. Terrific for music. In a moderate sized room it seems bigger than it is. Although it won't rattle the walls when the really low stuff hits in a movie, it covers 98% of what you are likely to encounter. At that price, it's a steal.
Nice, good to hear, i did in fact end up getting the stf-1 for 150, its actually going in my bedroom as well, im a poor college student so i still have roomates, and i wouldnt let them near my a/v stuff, esp while we're drinkin lol.

Anyone have thoughts as to how a VMPS Larger Subwoofer (with all of the options) would compare to the subs that Craig has looked at? I'm thinking of adding a sub, and I do have a spare Adcom GFA555II. After doing a fair amount of research, right now it's between the VMPS and the HSU VTF-3 HO.

I can't say how it compares to the others, but you might want more amplification for the VMPS. I clipped on LOTR so badly (when the ring drops and it gets obscenely bass-intensive) I now use two 555s both bridged mono. I was showing off - I don't usually have it that loud, but even so...

Nice, good to hear, i did in fact end up getting the stf-1 for 150, its actually going in my bedroom as well, im a poor college student so i still have roomates, and i wouldnt let them near my a/v stuff, esp while we're drinkin lol.
That's a great price for the STF-1. How did you get it for half off? It retails for $300.

That's a great price for the STF-1. How did you get it for half off? It retails for $300.
On this forum actually lol, someon was selling it in the classified section, its used obviously, but seeign as how im on such a tight budget i had to seek that option.

On this forum actually lol, someon was selling it in the classified section, its used obviously, but seeign as how im on such a tight budget i had to seek that option.
OK, I was thinking it was used or badly aesthetically damaged B-stock. Have fun with it! I'm happy w/ my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus sub (well, I just recently got it and haven't tested it out much). But I'm now eying on getting a small sub for my parents' bedroom HTS. Their living room HTS has that 10" Athena AS-P400 sub I previously mentioned.

Craig, has anyone compared something like these JBL SRX 728 dual 18" subs to subs that you have one your list. Throw a Crown amp behind them and how would they hold up.? I am thinking that this is off base of what you are comparing since in is a concert sub. Just curious....

Just curious because a friend of mine is in a band and he as these that he is setting up in his home theater behind his screen. He has 2 of them and 2 4000 watt Crown Amps.

I cannot wait to hear them.

http://www.jblpro.com/srx700/728S.htm

http://www.platinum-records.com/images/srx728S.jpg


He is claiming he is going to get 130-140 db.

...snip...

He is claiming he is going to get 130-140 db.

....and as deaf as a door knob.

yup

Kermie - We are planning on doing something a little different than what the JBL cabinets offer. The cabinet shown here is already being built at my brother's factory. It normally houses dual 18 inch drivers. As it turns out, it is about 9.5 cubic feet internal .. and is ideal for the new Creative Sounds SDX-15 driver.

It will be made of Baltic Birch, and they already heavily brace the cabinet for the dual 18's ... the only real change needed is the front Baffle and slot vent.

http://www.a-lineacoustics.com/Assets/SubWheelscc.jpg

It is about 45x23x22 inches ... and will come with the handles and wheels.

The cabinet shown here is already being built at my brother's factory.

Whats the name of the company or factory? Where is located?

Craigsub, clearly you know your stuff so I think this is a great question that will help out a lot of people.

Let's say you only had $600 and no subwoofer, what sub would you get for your home theater? I know everything depends on tastes and specific rooms, but I am just curious as to what you would do in this spot since I think you have objectively listed to more subs than just about anyone.

I really mean what exactly would you do, like you could say "I would pick up an a2-300 for $350 and then put the rest in the bank".

Craigsub, clearly you know your stuff so I think this is a great question that will help out a lot of people.

Let's say you only had $600 and no subwoofer, what sub would you get for your home theater? I know everything depends on tastes and specific rooms, but I am just curious as to what you would do in this spot since I think you have objectively listed to more subs than just about anyone.

I really mean what exactly would you do, like you could say "I would pick up an a2-300 for $350 and then put the rest in the bank".

This is a very good, and tough question. There are other variables to consider in a subwoofer purchase. The first is the room shape, size and what are the walls and floor - concrete ? Wood Frame ?

For the most bang for the $$$ in this range, Look at B stock SVS and Hsu offerings ... and also at the eD A5-300. Also, the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus is a great choice.

In a smaller room, if one listens to a lot of music, the Rocket UFW-10 is an excellent option.

There really is no one "right" answer to this.

I meant if it was you purchasing it for your room and you had to stay under $600, but I understand your point. Competition is fierce at that price level, luckily that benefits the consumer.

I meant if it was you purchasing it for your room and you had to stay under $600, but I understand your point. Competition is fierce at that price level, luckily that benefits the consumer.

We have three main theater areas - and based on the different subs and different rooms, I could easily recommend any of the ported subs mentioned above.

I mentioned "B" stock as an answer for a reason ... SVS and Hsu both often have "B" stock available, which can get a person into either a PB12-NSD or a VTF-3.3 for the $600 price point.

The SVS PB12-NSD is a great choice because it not only performs well, it is bulletproof.

The VTF-3.3 was consistently pick by several listeners as slightly besting the SVS in sound quality.

But the VTF-3.3 is also more prone to being overdriven.

Which is the better choice ? Both, or either, depending on the individual.

Craig, has anyone compared something like these JBL SRX 728 dual 18" subs to subs that you have one your list. Throw a Crown amp behind them and how would they hold up.? I am thinking that this is off base of what you are comparing since in is a concert sub. Just curious....

Just curious because a friend of mine is in a band and he as these that he is setting up in his home theater behind his screen. He has 2 of them and 2 4000 watt Crown Amps.

I cannot wait to hear them.

http://www.jblpro.com/srx700/728S.htm

http://www.platinum-records.com/images/srx728S.jpg


He is claiming he is going to get 130-140 db.

I run 2 of those and 2 Madison SAP-221s for my "mobile" DJ Rig. Definitely impresses everyone we've ever been hired by. Running Legion amps that do 3000w at 4ohm bridged. Those subs are extremely loud. He is not exaggerating 130-140db. A single will do 137db peak. With 2, 140db is very feasible.

Uh-oh Craigsub. Overdriven? What is this? I was all set to get the HSU and now you throw this wrench in. How do I avoid this?

Uh-oh Craigsub. Overdriven? What is this? I was all set to get the HSU and now you throw this wrench in. How do I avoid this?

You have to be really careless to overdrive it. For someone inexperienced, the SVS gets the edge, as you can TRY to blow it up, and it won't let you. It has limiters that keep even the most inexperienced user out of harm's way.

The Hsu's limiter is not quite as aggressive - I don't want this to sound "mean", but you would have to be pretty abusive to overdrive the Hsu.

Ok , thanks. I am no audiophile but I don't think I would hurt it. I am thinking the HSU 3.3 HO w/ turbo and a mid bass module would just rock my vaulted ceiling great room.

looking for an opinion on the paradigm pw2200. I am debating between a pair of these or svs pb-12 plus. I would appreciate any input or suggestions.

thanks,

zingo

My Outlaw LFM-1 Plus causes a lot of rattling between its discs and my ceramic tile floor. A couple folks in the Outlaw thread suggested at getting an Auralex Gramma carpeted riser and put the sub on it. I might to that, but the extra 3" height that would require might not work well for me since I was depending on the DLP TV on the TV stand overlapping the sub. Perhaps I can glue rubber pieces on the sub's discs. (The sub has carpet spikes which are then on dimpled discs.) One other option I'm considering is to get thick leather pieces and put them under the carpet spikes or discs. What do you think? Thanks.

a small bath rug is all you need

auralex subdude may help.

You have to be really careless to overdrive it. For someone inexperienced, the SVS gets the edge, as you can TRY to blow it up, and it won't let you. It has limiters that keep even the most inexperienced user out of harm's way.

The Hsu's limiter is not quite as aggressive - I don't want this to sound "mean", but you would have to be pretty abusive to overdrive the Hsu.

If I'm not mistaken the SVS uses a very steep high pass filter. The HSU subs use a bypassable low pass crossover filter with a 24db slope. If you are concerned about over driving it, use the subs cross and you may be able to sleep better at night. ;)


Ian :D

Update - The Definitive Technology Trinity is due at the dealer on Monday, and he assured me it will get turned around for shipping directly to our place - hopefully it will arrive by the end of next week.

We also order 4 drivers from Creative Sounds, the SDX-15. From these, we will be making some potent subs at my brother's factory.

auralex subdude may help.
Thanks, I checked it out, but at 15" x 15", it'd be too small for my Outlaw Audio sub, which is 22" long (deep).

I'll first try to stick these rubber feet I got at work (made for switches, which we rack mount instead of place them on an object) onto the discs that came w/ the Outlaw sub. If that's not enough, I'll get a bath rug (as ggunnell suggested) or accent rug and put that under the sub.

beowolf, take a look at the Auralex Gramma pad. At 15" wide and 23" deep, it is just about a perfect fit for your LFM-1+!

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GRAMMA/specs/#anchor

beowolf, take a look at the Auralex Gramma pad. At 15" wide and 23" deep, it is just about a perfect fit for your LFM-1+!

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GRAMMA/specs/#anchor
Thanks, Peter. Someone mentioned that in the Outlaw thread and I'm also considering that. The only problem w/ that, besides paying an extra $50+, is that it would raise my sub up by almost 3" (given the height of that floor). However, I was going to put the sub right next to my TV stand and expect the DLP TV (will buy it later this summer) to be wider than the TV stand and "spill over" into the air above the sub. However, if the sub sits too high, then the TV wouldn't be able to shadow it.

My Outlaw LFM-1 Plus causes a lot of rattling between its discs and my ceramic tile floor.

Hey have you thought about the auralex great gramma? (Just kiddin', it was the only one not mentioned yet). :p

You might try something like Isol-Pads (http://www.aspenaudio.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=QFS&Product_Code=4pk-isolpads).


There are actually a couple of different companies that make them but they are all essentially the same thing. A thick piece of cork sandwiched between two pieces of rubber. They do a good job of isolation, shouldn't have any problems with the weight of your sub and best of all are only 7/8" thick.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/4181/vibisolpads03hf0.jpg


The largest size of Vibrapods (http://www.musicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=AVIBM5) might do the trick. They are 9/16" tall. Edit: Checking the weight of the LFM-1 plus the next smaller size vibrapods (model 4) might work better.

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/2764/avibm5nm5.jpg


I've had good success with using sorbothane feet to isolate a heavy tube amp in the past. Edmund Optics (http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/displayproduct.cfm?productID=1618) has a set that might work well for your purpose. The hemisphere mount is self stick on the top (flat) side and has a small piece of felt on the bottom. They are about an inch tall:

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/1600/897ld4.gif


All of the above should do a better job of isolation than standard rubber feet. They'll cost a bit more but are all cheaper than a subdude.

^ Fnord, those are great suggestions. Thanks - and hyperlinking those products is also much appreciated! :)

^ Fnord, those are great suggestions. Thanks - and hyperlinking those products is also much appreciated! :)

I tried to stick to products that weren't outrageously priced. There are a lot of audio tweaks out there that might fit the bill but many of them are just nutty expensive.

For example Audioquest makes a set of sorbothane feet but they're $125 a set which is just silly given the price of comparable products.

Of course you could always go the DIY route and use hockey pucks, tennis/squash/racquetballs cut in half (or large superballs for that matter) or big blobs of blu-tac under each corner (which may stain hardwood floors) or you could put the sub on an innertube from a kid's bicycle tire (although that's probably a bad idea given your sub is down firing & downported lol).

What the heck happened to this thread?? It now seems to have fully spawned into another subwoofer Q&A forum!

What the heck happened to this thread?? It now seems to have fully spawned into another subwoofer Q&A forum!

we should have a thread that's kind of a "general chat about subwoofers" thread where people can come in and talk or ask about anything they want

some people are kinda shy making a new thread and most new people don't comb through the threads to find what they're looking for

and don't make it a "sticky", people tend to ignore sticky's (this is universal), look how many people come into the forum asking what are some good dvd's to play with good bass :eek:

:D

and don't make it a "sticky", people tend to ignore sticky's (this is universal), look how many people come into the forum asking what are some good dvd's to play with good bass :eek:

:D
tell me about it :rolleyes:

We are also in a lull in between testing out subwoofers. The Trinity should ship today, and there is the new eD dual 18 incher (A7-900), the New Ultra from SVS, and some DIY projects ... and eventually the BMF/MFW-15 from AV123 ...

we should have a thread that's kind of a "general chat about subwoofers" thread where people can come in and talk or ask about anything they want

Ummm ... isn't that what this subwoofer forum is for? :confused: I.e., start a thread with your comment or question and wait for people to respond, versus 1 single thread that eventually gets so big that it is impossible to manage or find anything of use in?

We are also in a lull in between testing out subwoofers. The Trinity should ship today, and there is the new eD dual 18 incher (A7-900), the New Ultra from SVS, and some DIY projects ... and eventually the BMF/MFW-15 from AV123 ...

Hey, who is this guy? How dare you post something that is actually in line with the subject of this thread!! :p

Okay okay ... [/rant off].

OK lets ask craigsub a sub question.


Based on your opinion and testing methods, how would you rate a combo
SVS PB12-Ultra/2 AND a PB12-Plus/2?

Will be used in an 18x18 room.

OK lets ask craigsub a sub question.


Based on your opinion and testing methods, how would you rate a combo
SVS PB12-Ultra/2 AND a PB12-Plus/2?

Will be used in an 18x18 room.

You will want to experiment with placement, as you are looking at a pretty large room peak with a square room ... other than that, you will have some serious horsepower .. even with 10 foot ceilings, you are looking at 3240 cubic feet ...

The combo should be killer.

Craigsub,
Any idea on when you will be getting ahold of a PB13 Ultra? After seeing Transformers on Monday, My old Pb12NSD I don't think is gonna cut it.

what about :

Revel Performa 15B
James EMB1500

????

Craigsub,
Just found this thread, I have a Velodyne ULD-15 and F-1500R

Would switching to Hsu VTF-3 Mark III or SVS PB12-Ultra an upgrade or downgrade ?

The Velodynes have 15 in. woofers where as Hsu/ SVS are 12 in. What do you

think? Thank you.

Craigsub,
Any idea on when you will be getting ahold of a PB13 Ultra? After seeing Transformers on Monday, My old Pb12NSD I don't think is gonna cut it.

I pre-ordered the first day they were available, so as soon as production starts, one will be on the way.

what about :

Revel Performa 15B
James EMB1500

????

If you are asking an opinion, I don't have one to give. We have tested neither. :)

Craigsub,
Just found this thread, I have a Velodyne ULD-15 and F-1500R

Would switching to Hsu VTF-3 Mark III or SVS PB12-Ultra an upgrade or downgrade ?

The Velodynes have 15 in. woofers where as Hsu/ SVS are 12 in. What do you

think? Thank you.

I think it would be a bit of a downgrade ... not in SPL, but in sound quality.

I think it would be a bit of a downgrade ... not in SPL, but in sound quality.

Thank you. I appreciate the input.

Hey craigsub, I know it's been said before, but thanks for this thread. There is always good information coming out of it. You could probably charge for the advise you give!!

Question: What do you do with the sub's once youv'e tested them? Do you sell them??

Update - ............<snip>............We also order 4 drivers from Creative Sounds, the SDX-15. From these, we will be making some potent subs at my brother's factory.

Can you tell us more about this project?

Hey craigsub, I know it's been said before, but thanks for this thread. There is always good information coming out of it. You could probably charge for the advise you give!!

Question: What do you do with the sub's once youv'e tested them? Do you sell them??

Yes, I sell them. About every 6 months we have a sale here.

Charge for the advice ? I have been offered money to shut up, but never for advice ... :D

Can you tell us more about this project?

We are looking at dual sealed cabinetes ... The SDX-15 seems like the perfect driver for this project ... based on the models, using 2400 watts of amplification, it should exceed the Fathom 113 in output, though it is a much larger enclosure.

And by exceed ... roughly by 5-6 dB @ 20 Hz.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SDX-15dualsealed.jpg

We are looking at dual sealed cabinetes ... The SDX-15 seems like the perfect driver for this project ... based on the models, using 2400 watts of amplification, it should exceed the Fathom 113 in output, though it is a much larger enclosure.

And by exceed ... roughly by 5-6 dB @ 20 Hz.



Wow, seems like a heckuva worthwhile project. I know that the f113 is your highest rated sub and has been pretty impressive in sound quality too. I presume that the goal is to surpass it in both respects?

Keep us posted in your progress and good luck :)

Ok, well here goes my "review" of my HSU3.3. Please note that I'm an audio newbie so i'll describe my views from that angle. Less measurements more experience :)

In the beginning there was a Velodyne VRP 1200, I felt the output was less than stellar, especially at the price. After swapping to a Paradigm PS1000, that was more output but it sounded like it was "almost" enough. I'm sure for a smaller room it would be good enough but overall for the price, since you can step up to the HSU about evenly, I decided "good enough" would not cut it. After reading Craigsub's review I placed an order for an HSU 3.3...
<bum bam buuuuuuuuuuuuuum>
So after ordering the sub, the first few thoughts were "Should I upgrade to the HO? Do I need the turbo?" I mean, a good review does not mean it will be enough bass to do what I need it to do under all conditions, right? I had one rule, and simply it was to not need to purchase another sub any time soon. "One sub to rule them all" as it were.

Then the two boxes arrived (3.3 and a Turbo). I kid you not, I laughed at the size of the 3.3. box for about 5 minutes, after talking with my GF the only question was "What on earth did I order?!". One unpacked box later and a coffee table was staring at us, Make no mistake this sub is large! (If you are new to this hobby, you will soon find this out) After placing the sub in the nearfield placement to try it out I set the sound level to the first line and the sub was at a 0 for boost on the receiver.
From my listening I can tell you simply that the sub IS very accurate, when movies/music call for small "bumps" the HSU calls a accurate bump to fill the room. While watching "Shooter" the machine guns had enough "ooph" to make you notice but not enough to sound muddy. Also when called for the sub can and does belt out the bass quite easily. Still at the first "tick" line, the Darla scene in Finding Nemo is an eye opener the first time you hear it, at sub -22 db on my Yamaha receiver the walls literally shake. It really feels like you are in the fish tank, none of this "ok" bass with other subs, I swear I will never do that to a fish again. I have to say I thought people were lying or just embellishing their stories a bit, I mean ALL of your friends say their 8' no name sub shakes their room right? Sheesh I don't even need to touch U571 or LOTR do I? The Balrog scene in LOTR alone caused "The boys" to shake and jitter enough that it worried me to think of the dangers of prolonged exposure. A sub like this makes you really think its roaring at you, like you are more in the scene than simply watching it. Truly a scary sub to hear. It will PHYSICALLY rattle things in the room, and at 16hz, turned DOWN it will still make your windows vibrate enough that you turn it off ASAP and thats at the 25hz setting.
As it stands even right now I don't need the Turbo, good lord WHY was that thing invented anyway? Its a bit like hitting a golf ball with an aluminum bat... yeah its fun but certainly not legal within the rules. Mine is still NITB and unless I'm trying to bring down my neighborhoods property value, I'm sure it will remain like that.

I guess in short, for the price, I have not seen anything really that compares to it (Skip the Turbo) I do NOT feel like an upgrade will be needed in the future, even if I get a dedicated room this will fill the area with good, clean bass and with two (for the price) i'm sure you can get everyone shaking in their chairs if they want to or not. One of the best "Future proof" purchases I have made in a long time.

I'd like to, again, thank Craigsub for his help with this, I can only imagine how many people he has helped in picking out equipment while still saving them money. And before I forget, skip the HO, save the money, the 3.3 will do it all, accurately (in an untreated room) and will go as soft as you need (in an apt) or as heavy as you can stand with a little bit of placement and adjusting if needed. :D

Now if anyone would like to talk to me about the Paradigm ADP 390's I picked up I'd me more than happy to discuss those too ;)

Thanks for the great review, bayn, I really appreciate it!

I would agree with you that most of the time, it would be best to run a single VTF-3 Mk3 in maximum output mode (no turbo). The Mk3 (or HO) with turbo works best in systems that use MBM-12 in the nearfield and the Mk3/HO turbo subwoofer in the farfield. This way, one can get the improved ultra deep bass performance without sacrificing dynamic range.

Thank you again for the kind words...

Sincerely,

Peter,
I guess I did forget to thank the makers of the sub! This sub is the "value" product that many are looking for to do the job without breaking the bank. Clearly everyone at HSU puts value in the product and it shows.
In the future I may look toward the MB-12 (that should be a combo option!) but I'm still trying to figure out the rest of my speakers. Thanks again to all that helped so far! :D

The Trinity arrived at the local trucking company on Friday. Thanks to the manager of the place, it got delayed until Monday for delivery.

I own the SVS 25-31 PCi. It's been mentioned before that the cylinders are similar/identical to the PB, what is the comparable PB to my 25-31 PCi or where would it fall in this list? Thanks!

JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points
Velodyne DD-18: 100 points
ACI Maestro: 97 points
JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo: 91 points
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points
Axiom EP-500: 90 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo: 88 points
SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points
SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo: 86 points
Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
Elemental Designs A2-300: 83 points
SVS PB10-NSD: 83 points
Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
BIC H-100: 78 points
Rocket Tyke: 60 points

Has the ED A3 or A5-300 been looked at? Given the great performance of the A2 I was wondering about where these would fall and if they'd be a big enough upgrade to spend the extra money on. Thanks!

Well, I caved and preorded the PB13 Ultra. I just didn't like the look of the HO or VTF3 (really a personal thing) which I had been on the fence about for months, and didn't want to wait until December on the rumour of a potential HO-Rosewood offering. Plus the ability to pick it up locally in the GTA (about 20 minutes from my house) sealed the deal.

Looking forward to Craig's opinions once he receives it. Knowing the time and effort SVS has put into that puppy and the fact that it will be their showcase piece, I'm guessing it will be worth it! All speculation now though.

The Trinity arrived at the local trucking company on Friday. Thanks to the manager of the place, it got delayed until Monday for delivery.

i sent def tech an email a while back asking if the trinity sub was really went down down to 10Hz and this is what i got back from chet over at def tech:


Thanks for your recent email to Definitive Technology. The SuperCube Trinity has output down to 10hz, however, the +/- 3db response for this subwoofer is down to 16hz.

If you need any other information, please email me at cpelkowski@definitivetech.com.


Thanks,

Chet Pelkowski

Definitive Technology

Datsun510 ... I would expect the 25-31 PCi to be comparable to the PB12-NSD ... Deep, powerful, and quite indestructible.

It may actually even work better in a real world system, with a slightly higher tuning point. Drop Ed Mullen a line, and get his opinion.

Well, I caved and preorded the PB13 Ultra. I just didn't like the look of the HO or VTF3 (really a personal thing) which I had been on the fence about for months, and didn't want to wait until December on the rumour of a potential HO-Rosewood offering. Plus the ability to pick it up locally in the GTA (about 20 minutes from my house) sealed the deal.

Looking forward to Craig's opinions once he receives it. Knowing the time and effort SVS has put into that puppy and the fact that it will be their showcase piece, I'm guessing it will be worth it! All speculation now though.

When is the PB13 supposed to ship?

Thirdhand, early August.

The SVS site says late July for the PC13s, mid August for the PB13s

What score does the HSU VTF-1 get?

The Trinity is here ... It has been unboxed for about 45 minutes. I calibrated it, and used the Auto EQ on the SMS-1 ... it looks to be pretty flat (+/- 3.5 dB) from 18 Hz and up ...

Right now, I have "The Hulk" fired up .... it definitely shakes the room.

The Trinity is here ... It has been unboxed for about 45 minutes. I calibrated it, and used the Auto EQ on the SMS-1 ... it looks to be pretty flat (+/- 3.5 dB) from 18 Hz and up ...

Right now, I have "The Hulk" fired up .... it definitely shakes the room.

Can't wait to see your results and thoughts on it. I want to get the Reference, as it is small enough for my needs now.

Interested in the comparison to the JL F113s.

Can't wait to see your results and thoughts on it. I want to get the Reference, as it is small enough for my needs now.

Watch out Spyone may not like this ! :p



Craigsub,

Impressions...when you can. Thanks again for the dedication to subs...always good to see there is a few other sub fanatics out there. :)

Datsun510 ... I would expect the 25-31 PCi to be comparable to the PB12-NSD ... Deep, powerful, and quite indestructible.

It may actually even work better in a real world system, with a slightly higher tuning point. Drop Ed Mullen a line, and get his opinion.

Thanks Craig! I guess I can rest easy that it fell in that position. :D No need to buy a new sub yet. I was listening to the Toy Story 2 opening scene after I read about it yesterday in this thread (I think). Well, not sure how accurate my bass was, but dang it shook! I hope the neighbors weren't home. Living in a townhouse sucks.

The Trinity is here ... It has been unboxed for about 45 minutes. I calibrated it, and used the Auto EQ on the SMS-1 ... it looks to be pretty flat (+/- 3.5 dB) from 18 Hz and up ...

Right now, I have "The Hulk" fired up .... it definitely shakes the room.

thanks craig, can't wait to hear more

Hey Guys,


Could anyone comment to where the Paradigm Servo15 would fit into this list?? Thanks!

Redfive ... The Paradigm was never given a proper shakedown here, but a guess would be in the same area as the Fathom 112 and Maestro.

For a first real report on the Trinity - We watched most of "The Shooter" tonight, and the Trinity did an excellent job of giving a chest slam when the big sniper rifle is shot. It also does the usual bomb scene stuff with floor shaking results.

It is not quite as percussive as the Fathom 113's ... but it is close.

I'm seriously thinking of replacing my single Fathom 113 with two Hsu 3.3. I'm not so much looking for more output, but want smoother response over a wider range of seats, and my new listening space will be able to handle having two giant subs in it. But I'm worried it may sound sloppy.... Anyone have insight into the tradeoffs?

nathan, would you be so kind and post a rough sketch of your theater room, including HxWxD dimensions and location of seating positions? Rest assured, dual Mk3 would not sound sloppy at all. At T.H.E. SHOW in Las Vegas, we used dual Mk3/t + MBM-12, really great performance! However, it would be nice to take a look at your room layout to see what options you could pursue to further improve system performance.

Sincerely,

Not wanting to hijack the thread: here is a thread that describes the setup I'm working on. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782601). In the interest of full disclosure, I've had a HSU in the past and was happy with it but there is something different about the Fathoms and I wonder if I'll miss it. Since we're having this conversation, perhaps a pair of the 2.3 would be better -- just as much extension, and since I'll have a pair in a modest sized space, I can probably get all the SPL I need.

nathan I'll buy your F113 if you decide to get rid of it. Please PM if you decide to get rid of it, thanks!

Hey guys, I've done a bit of research trying to find the right sub for me, and the VTF 3.3, svs pb-12 nsd, and eD a5-300 subs are the main ones i'm looking at, in addition to their slightly cheaper and smaller units. Mostly the $5-600 range but if I can get away with less that would satisfy my room, then outstanding.

My room is roughly 3000ft^3, if I did that right...(20' x 16' x 9.5') and opens up into a small ~ 6' hallway into the family room, etc. So it's very open. I turned my living room into the HT room because...I wanted a really big tv and a HT. So anyways, I don't do much music, except what comes on the movies, and considering the size and openness, I know I need something a little larger.

I do have two def tech BP7006s up front so i've got dual "fake" 8" subs shall we call them? They do a great job as is, but its not the punch I want for those U571 type movies. Your opinions???

Hey guys, I've done a bit of research trying to find the right sub for me, and the VTF 3.3, svs pb-12 nsd, and eD a5-300 subs are the main ones i'm looking at, in addition to their slightly cheaper and smaller units. Mostly the $5-600 range but if I can get away with less that would satisfy my room, then outstanding.

My room is roughly 3000ft^3, if I did that right...(20' x 16' x 9.5') and opens up into a small ~ 6' hallway into the family room, etc. So it's very open. I turned my living room into the HT room because...I wanted a really big tv and a HT. So anyways, I don't do much music, except what comes on the movies, and considering the size and openness, I know I need something a little larger.


Coop7199,

Craigsub probably has the most hands-on experience with all three models and his input will be valuable, but here is my own take:

Since your room is open to others and cannot be sealed, you need to take into account the total cubic feet of all adjoining rooms, and that kind of volume is notoriously difficult to drive and demands a great performing sub. My current room situation is very similar to yours and all rooms add up to about 7,000^3. I have not heard the eD subs but I do own the PB12-NSD and the VTF-3.3 and the 3.3 is the most dynamic performer of the two when used in max output mode and would be my strong recommendation for your room - nothing less. It will be the best $699 you ever spent on your HT. In max output mode you still get in-room response nearly flat down to 20hz and the performance is detailed and clean and pretty amazing at this price point.

Now if the HT bass bug bites you hard like it did me, you may eventually find yourself with a second 3.3 co-located and then the term 'headroom' will take on a whole new meaning :D

Now if the HT bass bug bites you hard like it did me, you may eventually find yourself with a second 3.3 co-located and then the term 'headroom' will take on a whole new meaning :D

Did you ever try one of your 3.3 in max output and one in max extension?

Did you ever try one of your 3.3 in max output and one in max extension?

Yes, but mixing the two output modes wasn't my cup of tea because in this large open room I want the max output I can get and extension mode has considerably less headroom especially in the midbass, as well as a different frequency response, and I want both subs to have near-perfect overlapping response in their co-located position. But when I move the HT to a sealed 2500^3 room next month I will try using both 3.3's in extension mode, each with a Turbo mounted, and in that situation I am betting I will have all the dynamic headroom I need plus will regain the 15-19hz subsonics which do seem to add another dimension of palpability and fear to scenes such as the WOTW pods emerging.

ross,

I think the loss in mid bass when the sub was set to its extension mode is the reason HSU came up with the MBM-12.

ross,

I think the loss in mid bass when the sub was set to its extension mode is the reason HSU came up with the MBM-12.

Yes, it seems that the lower the tune of a ported sub the less midbass impact and this is especially apparent with my fixed-tune PB12-NSD. But running dual 3.3's with Turbos in the new sealed smaller room I doubt I will have need for an MBM-12, as co-located I gain a full 6db of dynamic headroom across the full frequency response. If I don't love max extension mode in the new HT room I'll just dump the Turbo units and go back to running max output on co-located 3.3's, which already in the 7,000^3 space is jaw-dropping! I am pleasantly shocked at what four 4" flared ports and two 12" drivers can do :eek:

And to think just 2 years ago I assumed I'd be happy with the little 10" Athena sub picked up used on eBay :p

Coop7199,

My current room situation is very similar to yours and all rooms add up to about 7,000^3. I have not heard the eD subs but I do own the PB12-NSD and the VTF-3.3 and the 3.3 is the most dynamic performer of the two when used in max output mode and would be my strong recommendation for your room - nothing less. It will be the best $699 you ever spent on your HT. In max output mode you still get in-room response nearly flat down to 20hz and the performance is detailed and clean and pretty amazing at this price point.

Now if the HT bass bug bites you hard like it did me, you may eventually find yourself with a second 3.3 co-located and then the term 'headroom' will take on a whole new meaning :D

Thank you for this information. My room as yours about 6000 to 7000^3. I agree on the "in-room response" of the HSU VTF 3.3. I can imagine that the ED A5-300 could be a good choice. which one is the more music, the more acurate, tight, clean one ?
Thanks.

Thank you for this information. My room as yours about 6000 to 7000^3. I agree on the "in-room response" of the HSU VTF 3.3. I can imagine that the ED A5-300 could be a good choice. which one is the more music, the more acurate, tight, clean one ?
Thanks.

Someone else will have to chime in on the sound of an eD, I've never heard one. I do know that the HSU subs are widely reviewed as being very accurate and musical for ported subs in their respective price range, and my 3.3 certainly sounds wonderful to my ears and mates beautifully with the clean sound of Ascend speakers.

Not wanting to hijack the thread: here is a thread that describes the setup I'm working on. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782601). In the interest of full disclosure, I've had a HSU in the past and was happy with it but there is something different about the Fathoms and I wonder if I'll miss it. Since we're having this conversation, perhaps a pair of the 2.3 would be better -- just as much extension, and since I'll have a pair in a modest sized space, I can probably get all the SPL I need.

Thanks for the info nathan. So your theater room is about 17'x17' (with ~8-9' tall ceilings)? Where are you currently placing the F113? Are you feeling that you need more deep bass headroom, mid-bass punch, or both? Also, if you have any frequency response measurements, that would be nice to see. The F113 is a great sub, and it should be able to fill your room very nicely. It's possible that room acoustics (related to square dimension of room, etc) are throwing things off here.

PM sent. Don't want to hijack the thread further. (Happy to have the conversation in public in a dedicated thread.)

Rossandwendy, thanks for your great input. I know if I coupled my other rooms in on my dimensions (which I know I need to do and have thought about) it would have taken me a while to do, so I didn't bother besides say "it's open." I'd pretty much had my heart set on the 3.3 as is, and I have a friend that can get me a floor model for cheaper than on the website, so I just might do that. I was and am still very curious about eD, seeing how they've just seemed to pop up out of no where and get a lot of buzz. Only thing that turns me off to them is the look (sorry eD guys), but there could be an upside to it... I think it's bullet proof so I'll hide my family behind it if we're getting robbed. I'll give them a call tomorrow and chat with them for a bit.

For those of you with personal experience with an eD A3, A4, or A5, I'd love to hear if it would suit my situation as good/better than the 3.3 for, again, mostly HT with big booms! PM if needed!

Yes, but mixing the two output modes wasn't my cup of tea because in this large open room I want the max output I can get and extension mode has considerably less headroom especially in the midbass, as well as a different frequency response, and I want both subs to have near-perfect overlapping response in their co-located position. But when I move the HT to a sealed 2500^3 room next month I will try using both 3.3's in extension mode, each with a Turbo mounted, and in that situation I am betting I will have all the dynamic headroom I need plus will regain the 15-19hz subsonics which do seem to add another dimension of palpability and fear to scenes such as the WOTW pods emerging.

I would be curious to see your frequency response of your 3.3 with both in max output vs. one in max output and one in max extension. Could you plot that? I am wondering how much you are sacrificing in the lower end.

I have dual HO's non co-located and in my room (6000 cu ft) I can get down to about 13Hz flat with the max output/extension combo. When I change to both in max output I can only get down to about 18 or 19 Hz flat with only a minor bump in the mid range.

We finished "The Shooter" last night, and the Trinity is getting more impressive. There is a scene late in the movie in which an large house explodes ... it is a continuous 22-30 Hz rumble, and the Trinity shook the room like it wanted to cause damage.

It was visceral, chest pounding, and VERY clean.

It also felt like it was not straining.

Taking 4 x 14 inch passives and tuning them in the low 20's may not make for the best "Look what she'll do @ 15 Hz bass", but for real world performance, it was a smart move on Def Tech's part.

The Brick and Mortar world has a contender in the "high output for the $$$$" arena.

PM sent. Don't want to hijack the thread further. (Happy to have the conversation in public in a dedicated thread.)

New thread is here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11022008#post11022008

We finished "The Shooter" last night, and the Trinity is getting more impressive. There is a scene late in the movie in which an large house explodes ... it is a continuous 22-30 Hz rumble, and the Trinity shook the room like it wanted to cause damage.

It was visceral, chest pounding, and VERY clean.

It also felt like it was not straining.

Taking 4 x 14 inch passives and tuning them in the low 20's may not make for the best "Look what she'll do @ 15 Hz bass", but for real world performance, it was a smart move on Def Tech's part.

The Brick and Mortar world has a contender in the "high output for the $$$$" arena.

That's one huge sub. Have you tried music on it yet? I'm willing to bet Donald Fagan's "Morph the Cat" won't sound much better on any other sub. I've always been impressed with the musicality of their subs.

I'm about ready to pull a plug on the Plus/2 because there's just not that much material below 18Hz.

We finished "The Shooter" last night, and the Trinity is getting more impressive. There is a scene late in the movie in which an large house explodes ... it is a continuous 22-30 Hz rumble, and the Trinity shook the room like it wanted to cause damage.

It was visceral, chest pounding, and VERY clean.

It also felt like it was not straining.

Taking 4 x 14 inch passives and tuning them in the low 20's may not make for the best "Look what she'll do @ 15 Hz bass", but for real world performance, it was a smart move on Def Tech's part.

The Brick and Mortar world has a contender in the "high output for the $$$$" arena.
Craig, thanks for the continued sub reporting, I'm sure I'm not the only one who eagerly awaits each new sub test you do and it's a great service to the community. The additional beasts you have coming in the next few months are going to be fascinating to hear about :eek:

I think it's time I told my wife about you in hopes that it will make me look a bit more reasonable in her eyes regarding my subwoofer obsession and acquisitions :D

I would be curious to see your frequency response of your 3.3 with both in max output vs. one in max output and one in max extension. Could you plot that? I am wondering how much you are sacrificing in the lower end.

I have dual HO's non co-located and in my room (6000 cu ft) I can get down to about 13Hz flat with the max output/extension combo. When I change to both in max output I can only get down to about 18 or 19 Hz flat with only a minor bump in the mid range.

Kevin, those are intriguing results you are achieving by mixing tuning modes. I will try what you suggest when I move in August and post results in a new thread at that time.

Craigsub,

Well I called LaBoitique here in Montreal...they sell Definitive Tech speakers/subs and I will get my own Trinity sub.

Enough me poking fun at Def Tech...you better report the truth and nothing but the truth. ;) You say it is a monster...ha I have to have one.

Also the new eD(Elemental Designs) monster sub using dual 18"...inquired about shipping and it is very realistic,so this one is on my short list of subs to buy.



He he time for some more subs....

Lets hope the first pic will finally be knocked off the wall.

Ear, you are a sick unit. And I mean that in a good way. :)

Craigsub,

Well I called LaBoitique here in Montreal...they sell Definitive Tech speakers/subs and I will get my own Trinity sub.

Enough me poking fun at Def Tech...you better report the truth and nothing but the truth. ;) You say it is a monster...ha I have to have one.

Also the new eD(Elemental Designs) monster sub using dual 18"...inquired about shipping and it is very realistic,so this one is on my short list of subs to buy.



He he time for some more subs....

Lets hope the first pic will finally be knocked off the wall.
time to call subaholics just kidding.

Ear ... Go for it, my friend. The Trinity is a very nice subwoofer - harder to set up than some, but it is a performer.

I have Meatloaf's "Back into Hell" rolling right now ... a fantastic kick drum. My wife wants to watch "You, Me and Dupree" tonight.

I put my foot down, telling her that we are testing a new subwoofer, and it is not time for a comedy. I demanded that we watch The Haunting DTS that I bought last month.

I will let you guys know how Matt Dillon and Owen Wilson combine in a comedy when we are done. :p :rolleyes: :D

Glad you put your foot down. lol

Have to ask why you felt that it was harder to dial in?

By any chance, do you have REW set up to see how the PRs affect decay time?

Glad you put your foot down. lol

Have to ask why you felt that it was harder to dial in?

By any chance, do you have REW set up to see how the PRs affect decay time?

You have dual PR's on opposite sides and dual actives facing forward ... compared to other subs, moving these an inch or 2 can make a bigger difference in the sound quality.

I don't have REW, no ... but I have been switching between a Fathom and the Trinity ... The Trinity is doing a very nice job of matching the agility of the Fathom.

There is no noticable lag from the PR's...

How many sides are those speakers firing from? I hope you can post some pics with the grill off.

Ear ... Go for it, my friend. The Trinity is a very nice subwoofer - harder to set up than some, but it is a performer.

I have Meatloaf's "Back into Hell" rolling right now ... a fantastic kick drum. My wife wants to watch "You, Me and Dupree" tonight.

I put my foot down, telling her that we are testing a new subwoofer, and it is not time for a comedy. I demanded that we watch The Haunting DTS that I bought last month.

I will let you guys know how Matt Dillon and Owen Wilson combine in a comedy when we are done. :p :rolleyes: :D

thanks for the testing and review craig

i posted this in the DIY section when someone called into question the "build quality" of def tech, but in case you missed it, i emailed def tech and asked them about the thickness of the MDF and got this back:

Front panel: 2”

Side panels: 1.75”

Rear panel” 1”



Thanks,

Chet Pelkowski

Definitive Technology


thought that might interest you

and since the drivers are front firing and the PR's on the sides, the trinity will be easy to stack :D :D

i want my first DIY project to be based on the trinity design but i was thinking about using dual LMS-5400's and four 18" TC-VMP PR's

How many sides are those speakers firing from? I hope you can post some pics with the grill off.

those "socks" are a bitch to get back on, LOL

but i would love to see some pics of that myself

I will try to get my wife to get her digital out tomorrow. I already had the sock rolled down ... in some ways, the Trinity reminds me of a cool DIY project.

Morph The Cat is playing now ... good stuff.

OTK .... thanks for the info. :)

I will try to get my wife to get her digital out tomorrow. I already had the sock rolled down ... in some ways, the Trinity reminds me of a cool DIY project.

Morph The Cat is playing now ... good stuff.

OTK .... thanks for the info. :)

thanks craig

can i put in a request for a close-up of the amp panel?

:o

I'm seriously thinking of replacing my single Fathom 113 with two Hsu 3.3. I'm not so much looking for more output, but want smoother response over a wider range of seats, and my new listening space will be able to handle having two giant subs in it. But I'm worried it may sound sloppy.... Anyone have insight into the tradeoffs?

You should have bought 2 112's.

Barry

Alas, that might have been the right move, but would have increased the cost 2k (approx) over my budget.

Dual VTF3-HO will not sound sloppy,this I would not worry about. Going from an f113 to dual VTF3 subs will not be a step up in quality that is for sure.

Two will give you better results across the seats,that is a sure thing.

Dual VTF3-HO will not sound sloppy,this I would not worry about. Going from an f113 to dual VTF3 subs will not be a step up in quality that is for sure.

Two will give you better results across the seats,that is a sure thing.

I have dual VTF-3HO's and they are far from sloppy. Even my wife commented on how accurate they are. Having 2 subs definitely evened out my FR, I have verified this by using REW to see my FR with each running individually.

Good luck

Dual VTF3-HO will not sound sloppy,this I would not worry about. Going from an f113 to dual VTF3 subs will not be a step up in quality that is for sure.

Two will give you better results across the seats,that is a sure thing.

Thanks for the comment. Question: From what you say it sounds like you've heard both subs. What do you think is the qualitative difference between the two? (Ignore the fact that I'll have dual HSU versus the one Fathom.)

I see no reason why one or two of the VTF subwoofers with MBM-12 could not match/exceed the quality of a high powered sealed subwoofer system. When running the VTF in lowest port tuning, some maximum output capability and dynamic range is sacrificed, so it would be unlikely for one VTF subwoofer in lowest port tuning to be as dynamic as something like F112/F113. However, when using the MBM-12 in the system, one would be able to run in lowest port tuning without sacrificing maximum output capability and dynamic range. In fact, output capability and dynamic range would be substantially improved, so quality and dynamics would be vastly improved. An alternative that would also improve maximum output capability and dynamic range would be to run the VTF subwoofer in max output mode at the highest port tuning, and/or add a second VTF subwoofer. The advantage for the sealed system would be that size would tend to be much smaller. The advantage for the ported system would be lower deep bass distortion. Both sealed and ported systems involve tradeoffs, and one is not necessarily higher quality than the other.

Thanks for the comment. Question: From what you say it sounds like you've heard both subs. What do you think is the qualitative difference between the two? (Ignore the fact that I'll have dual HSU versus the one Fathom.)

I only heard the VTF3...

The Fathom when compared one sub VS one sub is superior SQ wise,not a major gain but a real one.Better definition.Me I would NEVER trade my dual f113's for anything commercial and ported.

The Fathom has better impact plus conrol.

Just me.

In fact, output capability and dynamic range would be substantially improved, so quality and dynamics would be vastly improved.

Salesman at work. :rolleyes: Vastly you say...if so then Craigsub would use your solution as his reference by now.

Vastly means ...a lot. Please

Unless you are refering to a VTF3 with and without the upper bass module.There is no sub vastly superior to the f113 in SQ. Output and extension...you bet but not the VTF3.

I guess this thread is largely about OUTPUT and DEPTH. Both are important but for me, as long as the sub hits circa 20hz without substantial fall off from the rest of its range (say, up to 80hz), I'm happy. That is, depth and output are less important to me than... accuracy. I know the whole fast/slow sub debate is better left untouched. But when a note ends, I want the note to end. And when a single tone is played, I want to hear only that tone.

Salesman at work. :rolleyes: Vastly you say...if so then Craigsub would use your solution as his reference by now.

Vastly means ...a lot. Please

Whoa, hold on a second there TheEAR. Did you actually read what I said? I said that the MBM-12 vastly improves dynamic range and maximum output capability for the VTF subwoofers, especially in extended bass mode (lowest port tuning). In fact, the increase in headroom is huge, +10db compared to a single VTF-3 HO/t or VTF-3 Mk3/t. No matter what ported subwoofer we talk about, if port tuning is lowered with all else equal, then efficiency over the common bass ranges goes down. So the lower the ported subwoofer is tuned, all else equal, the more that one compromises maximum output capability and dynamic range over the most common bass frequencies.

Unless you are refering to a VTF3 with and without the upper bass module.There is no sub vastly superior to the f113 in SQ. Output and extension...you bet but not the VTF3.

It is tough to say what would constitute "vastly superior" sound quality. That could depend on a lot of variables. Note that we did have a VTF-3 HO customer who said his turbo sub with MBM-12 provided better mid-bass detail and deeper extension in his room than any other subwoofer he had ever tried out at home, including the F113. In another room, maybe the result would be different, who knows. Dual VTF-3 Mk3/t + MBM-12 would offer even higher performance than a single HO/t + MBM-12 too. Of course, the tradeoff with the ported models and mid-bass module is larger size and trickier setup. That's life in the subwoofer world, everything involves tradeoffs, whether it is cost/size/features/etc.

One customer's opinion is no fact about any real superiority.

Better detail,when you have a dedicated unit taking care of the 50-80Hz(or so)range,it is a given you can get better detail,as you have a very light paper cone moving very little,complementing the sub.

The MBM can be added to any sub with solid extension. So far I have not heard any indication of a missing link,maybe because I use larger floorstanders cut from 60-80Hz,these have tremendous punch when called to do so. For others an MBM may be needed,as their mains are not capable enough.

No doubt, the idea of superiority would be questionable at best when comparing two very different designs and approaches to reproducing bass.

The MBM offers the most benefit for low tuned ported subwoofers. Low tuning is a good way to get improved extension and lower distortion in the deep bass compared to a higher tuning, but output and dynamic range over the common bass frequencies is always compromised to some degree in comparison to a higher tuned model (all else equal). With MBM, one can get the benefits of the lower port tuning without suffering from reduced mid-bass output and dynamic range.

It's fine to use main channel speakers to reproduce mid-bass. However, many speakers (especially bookshelf-type speakers) tend not to have great headroom in this range. Also, having a separate unit allows one to position the mid-bass module in the nearfield for maximum impact, lower distortion, and reduced room effects.

Well I called LaBoitique here in Montreal...they sell Definitive Tech speakers/subs and I will get my own Trinity sub.

Enough me poking fun at Def Tech...you better report the truth and nothing but the truth. ;) You say it is a monster...ha I have to have one.

i thought you owned one already

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9425863&&#post9425863

that whole thread is a very interesting read :rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR
I was told 2-3 weeks.


According to the post in the above mentioned thread, TheEar ordered supposedly ordered his trinity on 1-11-07 and have been told a wait time of 2-3 weeks.

Wondering what went wrong here?

Craig,
I'm basically down to the HSU VTF-2mk3 or the eD a5-300 for a basement theater. It it was your choice based on your experiences, what would your opinion be?
Thanks

Craig,
I'm basically down to the HSU VTF-2mk3 or the eD a5-300 for a basement theater. It it was your choice based on your experiences, what would your opinion be?
Thanks

My opinion is both would be excellent choices ... with no clear winner between the 2. :)

This is a very good, and tough question. There are other variables to consider in a subwoofer purchase. The first is the room shape, size and what are the walls and floor - concrete ? Wood Frame ?

For the most bang for the $$$ in this range, Look at B stock SVS and Hsu offerings ... and also at the eD A5-300. Also, the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus is a great choice.

In a smaller room, if one listens to a lot of music, the Rocket UFW-10 is an excellent option.

Glad to see a mention of the UFW-10 at last.

I'm just about to purchase the Rocket ULW-10 as sub #3 in the quest to find a small but still satisfying sub.

Our family room is fairly small (12 x 14 x 9 ~ 1500 sq feet) but does open into the kitchen (10 x 12 x 8 ~ 960 sq feet). My old 8" Energy sub (whatver model was before the S8.2) has never really made me happy but was OK given the cost. We're doing some remodeling so I threw a few upgrades into the budget :)

Sub #1 was the VTF-2 Mk 3. Oh, my. This thing sounds amazing... and is amazingly huge. (And I know it is on the small side!) I spent a few hours dialing it in and then basked in the tight thumps of Neil Peart's bass drum and the big booms in Saving Private Ryan. Pure bliss!

And then my wife came home.

Though she admitted it sounded good, she clearly couldn't abide the size. She'd been tolerant of my big Connoisseur C-8's over the past few years but this was too much. I have to admit, this thing is a monster in our small room and clearly couldn't stay. I'm blessed that HSU is not too far away so - if I can fit it in my car - it will be headed back home soon to the factory.

Sub #2 was meant to please my wife: the tiny Super 8 from Orb Audio to match our new Orbs. I knew going back to an 8" sub was going to be a disappointment after the HSU. The Super 8 arrived and, I was pleasantly surprised. It sounds far better than the old Energy 8" sub and is suprisingly "tight" and in a tiny package at ~ 12" cubed. Still, though, it was not the VTF-2 Mk 3.

I have to admit that this was part of my devious plan - if my wife could hear the difference perhaps there was room for a compromise... So I've been on the hunt for the smallest sub I can get that gives biger sound.

Sub #3 will be the Rocket ULW-10. It's barely an inch and a half larger than the Super 8 all around. I'm assuming it will perform somewhere in between the Rocket X-Sub and the ULW-12. Perhaps on par with the PB10-NSD?

I thought about the UFW-10 but I don't think that I need the extra 150 watts that the extra $100 buys given our room size (or the fancy finish.)

Looking forward to another round of testing!

PS - I read through all 65 pages over the past few weeks. This is a great thread! :)

The UFW-10 is a GREAT little sub. They often run specials on their stuff ... another option is the X-sub ... it is easy to live with, sounds great, and runs $200.

My opinion is both would be excellent choices ... with no clear winner between the 2. :)

I agree from all the reviews and comments they seem to be so similar. The specs are nearly identical, other than the wattage. Does the increased wattage of the a3-500 give it any advantage?

I agree from all the reviews and comments they seem to be so similar. The specs are nearly identical, other than the wattage. Does the increased wattage of the a3-500 give it any advantage?

Not really ... Without knowing the T/S specs of both drivers, and actual power delivered by the amps, the quoted power ratings are irrelevant.

Putting this into plain English, the amp's job is to be able to provide enough power to drive the woofer to its excursion limits.

If it is more powerful than that, you either overdrive the woofer (bad), or the limiter kicks in (meaning you are not using all that power anyway).

The only important test, in terms of power, from a subwoofer, is how much SPL can it deliver across its frequency bandwidth (let's call it from 16-20 Hz on the bottom and 100 on the top) with no audible distortion, or other noises.

Not really ... Without knowing the T/S specs of both drivers, and actual power delivered by the amps, the quoted power ratings are irrelevant.

Putting this into plain English, the amp's job is to be able to provide enough power to drive the woofer to its excursion limits.

If it is more powerful than that, you either overdrive the woofer (bad), or the limiter kicks in (meaning you are not using all that power anyway).

The only important test, in terms of power, from a subwoofer, is how much SPL can it deliver across its frequency bandwidth (let's call it from 16-20 Hz on the bottom and 100 on the top) with no audible distortion, or other noises.

Then my question is Craig; What would be the advantage of lets say an ED A3-300 over an A2-300? I think it has the same driver, even the same enclosure and port, the only difference is the higher amp power. I would assume that the A2-300 offers enough power to reach it's limits and since you have tested one, am I wrong?

Ian

Then my question is Craig; What would be the advantage of lets say an ED A3-300 over an A2-300? I think it has the same driver, even the same enclosure and port, the only difference is the higher amp power. I would assume that the A2-300 offers enough power to reach it's limits and since you have tested one, am I wrong?

Ian

The A3-300 "may" have a slight SPL advantage, but its primary plus is a more rigidly braced enclosure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR
I was told 2-3 weeks.


According to the post in the above mentioned thread, TheEar ordered supposedly ordered his trinity on 1-11-07 and have been told a wait time of 2-3 weeks.

Wondering what went wrong here?

I was on the edge of ordering one back then,then backed out, that simple. Stop making tempests in tea pots.

Maybe Zissou should show up here... :rolleyes:

7-16-2007
I was on the edge of ordering one back then,then backed out, that simple. Stop making tempests in tea pots.

Maybe Zissou should show up here... :rolleyes:


1-11-2007
Now before we make any claims,I am waiting for my Trinity sub. To anyone reading this thread,YES I ORDERED A TRINITY SUB TODAY.

"YES I ORDERED A TRINITY SUB TODAY" in all caps does not sound like "on the edge of ordering" to me

then all future posts asking about it were ignored

In the April 2007 issue of "Home Theater" mag., I read a raving review of the JL Audio Fathom f113 that is #1 in craigsub's list. It seems like a tremendous sub that is priced out of most people's capability at $3,200-$3,300. :eek:

I am waiting to hear more about the Trinity sub. I own a SCII and I really like it but location is very important for deep bass. If you really want to feel pressure try some of thier reference supertowers. I had a pair and watched LOTR and it felt as though my head was in a vice....

CraigSub, whatever happened to you getting your hands on a SubMersive? Curious to see how it would rank. Are you getting the SVS ultras anytime soon for comparo's? Sorry if it has been asked before.

Over the next 4 weeks, We have in our family the following ... A week's vacation, a three day golf outing, and three major swim events.

The subwoofer info will be pretty sparse, but will start to pick up shortly after Aug 12.

By then, I should be getting close to having an Ultra-13, plus my DIY sealed project, an eD A7-900 and the Trinity all ready for a GP session.

Right now, I can say I like the Trinity, it is deep, powerful, and sounds great.

who cares about golf?!?! C'mon Craig! ;)

J/K! :p

Craig, Any possibility you might augment your reviews to include not only depth and output, but also "accuracy"? I'm thinking something along the lines of the measurements here -- or maybe you already do, but it's all wrapped together?

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/hsu-research-vtf-1-subwoofer-review/vtf-1-measurments-and-analysis.html

where they have a measurement like this:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/hsu-research-vtf-1-subwoofer-review/0_SUMIRNF85dB_1mSPLM.jpg/image

Where are you and your family going Craig?

Craig, Any possibility you might augment your reviews to include not only depth and output, but also "accuracy"? I'm thinking something along the lines of the measurements here -- or maybe you already do, but it's all wrapped together?

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/hsu-research-vtf-1-subwoofer-review/vtf-1-measurments-and-analysis.html

where they have a measurement like this:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/hsu-research-vtf-1-subwoofer-review/0_SUMIRNF85dB_1mSPLM.jpg/image

If you look at Craig's graphs, I think you can see pretty clearly just how linear the bandwidth is. Now it's time he did speed graphs? :D

Ian

Where are you and your family going Craig?

...and can we borrow the keys to the home theater and frig? :)

Out of the next 26 Days, We are going to a horse ranch in Wyoming for 8 days, plus 2 more for travel, a 3 day golf outing, and 3 x 2 day swim meets plus a season ending swim banquet.

20 of those 26 days are being taken up with family activities.

No, Jim, you cannot have the keys to the home theater and frig ... I am lucky to get them myself .. :D

Nathan, at a quick glance, it looks like AH is doing an attack/delay test. I don't have the software for that, but it is interesting. What would REALLY be interesting is some blind listening tests done on different subs, with those graphs posted after the listening tests are done.

Back to the Trinity ... I have been tweaking it some more, and it is getting higher marks all the time. We watched "Cars" last night ... and there is some surprisingly percussive bass in the movie, as well as in the opening 45 second instrumental with some DEEP drum thwacks ... the Trinity smacks one in the chest ... very authoritative.

The Trinity also adds a nice warmth to the soundtrack ... my guess is it produces some fairly high 2nd order harmonics, which may not look that great on a graph, but it can sound VERY good.

Measurements will be taken after all our travels to confirm this.

Yep, here is what AH says about it, including where they got the software:

"Measurements were performed using the Sample Champion program developed by Paolo Guidorzi of Purebits. The program is a Maximum Length Sequence (MLS) program that generates a time domain impulse response from this pseudorandom signal. Fast Fourier Transformation is applied to the impulse response to generate the system frequency response. The operating principle is the same as that of the well known MLSSA program."

who cares about golf?!?! C'mon Craig! ;)

J/K! :p
Better yet, who cares about family? :eek:

Enjoy your vacation, craigsub! :cool:

Hello,
Have you read this review of the ED A5 300 ?
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/elemental_designs_a5300.htm
It looks positive.
No way to compare with Hsu VTF 2 - MK3 and SVS PB12 NSD.
the music quality is for me far more important than boom power.
Any comment would be welcome.
Thanks

Hello,
Have you read this review of the ED A5 300 ?
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/elemental_designs_a5300.htm
It looks positive.
No way to compare with Hsu VTF 2 - MK3 and SVS PB12 NSD.
the music quality is for me far more important than boom power.
Any comment would be welcome.
Thanks

Based on my experience with the A2-300, the A5-300 should be a very good performer. All three subs you are looking at are going to be quite close, in regards to performance.

Part of the decision may well come down to how hard is it going to be to get one delivered to you ?

We had a rainy night last night, so my 10 year old (in lieu of taking him to play minature golf) and I watched an old subwoofer standard: Star Wars I, Phantom Menace.

The Trinity reminded me a lot of my old SVS B4+ ... During the Pod Race scene, it absolutely smashes in the chest. It is not quite as "fast" at it as is the Fathom, but it hits harder.

During the course of Ep I, there are also about 200 explosions .. and the Trinity makes the movie fun. I know this is rarely mentioned in a subwoofer review, but even my 10 year old was jumping out of his seat during some of these scenes, and yelling over ... "Dad, did you FEEL that ... that was so COOL".

For real world use, this subwoofer is turning out to be an excellent product.

We had a rainy night last night, so my 10 year old (in lieu of taking him to play minature golf) and I watched an old subwoofer standard: Star Wars I, Phantom Menace.

The Trinity reminded me a lot of my old SVS B4+ ... During the Pod Race scene, it absolutely smashes in the chest. It is not quite as "fast" at it as is the Fathom, but it hits harder.

During the course of Ep I, there are also about 200 explosions .. and the Trinity makes the movie fun. I know this is rarely mentioned in a subwoofer review, but even my 10 year old was jumping out of his seat during some of these scenes, and yelling over ... "Dad, did you FEEL that ... that was so COOL".

For real world use, this subwoofer is turning out to be an excellent product.

thanks for the updates craig, looks like you're having way too much fun with the trinity :D

i've never heard one and always wondered how they could get away with only using 2 of them to replace the large pipes of the pipe organ that was destroyed by the dust on 911 in the trinity church. they also use 74 def tech BP-10's to replace the rest of the pipes

this is a really interesting read on the trinity organ which is what the trinity sub was designed for:

http://www.trinitywallstreet.org/welcome/?article&id=255


i liked this part :D


Then Jackson flicked a switch on a sound processor to his left, and played those same low notes powered by the new machine: it was likely the last time something that overwhelming had sounded in the church was when the south tower of the trade center was coming down. Only obfuscated at the bottom of a pile of grand chords, would I ever want to hear those notes in performance, but the point was made: something that could sound that powerfully awful could also sound awe-inspiringly beautiful.

“Now I’m going to play a piece that builds in intensity,” said Jackson.

He played the Toccata in B-minor by Gigout. The piece began prettily in the upper registers -- a cascade of spiraling sound as notes splashed from their pedal points. Jackson’s hands flashed over the keys, and as his fingers ascended the tiers of the console, the piece grew in volume and intricacy to become simultaneously manic and controlled. What was a cascade became an immense wall of sound.

When he was done, Jackson turned, smiling ear to ear.

“You see? And this is only 20 percent,” he said. “When the rest of it comes, it’s going to be rocking in here.”

Its refereshing to see the big Def Tech get such a positive initial review. So many people want to hate on these subs that to hear a voice many of us respect in regards to subwoofer opinions sound off very favorably towards it hopefully will silence (or at least tone down) some of the "the glass is half empty" crowd. I am looking forward to the direct SQ comparison to JL, VELO and the other big contenders.

Looking forward to more discussion on accuracy versus "fun factor".

Looking forward to more discussion on accuracy versus "fun factor".

You mean, weighing each factor against other subs' rendition of each -- or discussing whether accuracy or "fun factor" is more important in a particular sub?

Actually, would most choose a sub with a higher "fun factor" over one that's more accurate.

I have always loved Def Techs products and for the life of me do not understand the haters that put these products down. I knew this sub would more than contend with the Fathom and Velo.

Actually, would most choose a sub with a higher "fun factor" over one that's more accurate.

I would suspect that many would choose the higher "fun factor" as first priority and there's nothing wrong with that. But I would hope that any evaluation (like this excellent thread) would take accuracy into account, for those of us that are not so good at "fun" :)

Gents (and ladies) ... So I don't mislead anyone, the Trinity also does a great job on music - kick drums are presented with authority and percussion, bass guitar and Cello are also excellent.

When I mentioned this fun factor ... The Trinity gives the impression of VERY good macro-dynamics ... with no signs of compression on loud, spectacular passages. :)

Based on my experience with the A2-300, the A5-300 should be a very good performer. All three subs you are looking at are going to be quite close, in regards to performance.

Part of the decision may well come down to how hard is it going to be to get one delivered to you ?

Thanks for your answer.
The 3 subs can be delivered to Paris. travel and taxes are comparable. Hsu has a wooden look but the A5 300 is the less expensive, so I could choose that one (I don't like the black but can manage that).
I am waiting a few week to hear and read more about music quality. If I learn something interesting I promise to let the thread informed.
Cheers.

I wonder how this sub would do in my family room of my 1100 sq ft condo?

The SuperCube® Trinity Signature seems like a great deal and it does pack a lot of the "fun" factor. It really does take your breath away with a kick in your chest to boot when needed. Accuracy vs. Fun.......hmmmmm. I have found these at less than $2K, seems like a great price and a further incentive (rationale, I suppose) for two of these.

Gents (and ladies) ... So I don't mislead anyone, the Trinity also does a great job on music - kick drums are presented with authority and percussion, bass guitar and Cello are also excellent.

When I mentioned this fun factor ... The Trinity gives the impression of VERY good macro-dynamics ... with no signs of compression on loud, spectacular passages. :)

thanks craig

i'm just curious, how large is your room and what kind of room treatments, if any, are in place

i'd also love to know what else you're using as far as speakers, amps, pre/pro, etc.

and just because i'm nosy, what kind of display device :D

Craig, where would you place the Def Tech Trinity in your rating scale?

Craig, where would you place the Def Tech Trinity in your rating scale?

We are all waiting for this answer. :)

Our room is currently relatively light on room treatments .... 2 bass panels in the front corners ... some very heavy drapes on one wall ... and the room itself has a couple of angled walls which help with keeping resonances under control.

The room is appx. 27x21, angled in one corner, 8.5 foot ceilings.

It is not an easy room to "drive", for sure.

It will be a few weeks before enough testing is complete to place a final number. Part of the process will be the GP session, and we still have to do the blind comparisons.

Craig, have you gotten in touch with the original OP of this thread so we can see the updated numbers on the first page?

Thanks for your answer.
The 3 subs can be delivered to Paris. travel and taxes are comparable. Hsu has a wooden look but the A5 300 is the less expensive, so I could choose that one (I don't like the black but can manage that).
I am waiting a few week to hear and read more about music quality. If I learn something interesting I promise to let the thread informed.
Cheers. Bonjour pchevalier, et accueillir. :) (Etes-vous relaté à Maurice? ;)) Je parle un petit français, mais seulement un peu. J'ai étudié le français dans l'université, mais cela était il y a un million d'années. Je triche en utilisant un traducteur en ligne :o, si, s'il vous plaît continuer à utiliser l'anglais dans vos postes. Vous le parlez très bien. Et, s'il vous plaît garder nous a informés de votre choix de subwoofer.

J'espère, un jour, voir Paris.

Jacque. ;)

(Boy am I gonna feel dumb if you turn out to be an American who just happens to be living in Paris. My spell checker developed a hernia when it checked this post. :( :D )

Bonjour pchevalier, et accueillir. :) (Etes-vous relaté à Maurice? ;)) Je parle un petit français, mais seulement un peu. J'ai étudié le français dans l'université, mais cela était il y a un million d'années. Je triche en utilisant un traducteur en ligne :o, si, s'il vous plaît continuer à utiliser l'anglais dans vos postes. Vous le parlez très bien. Et, s'il vous plaît garder nous a informés de votre choix de subwoofer.

J'espère, un jour, voir Paris.

Jacque. ;)

(Boy am I gonna feel dumb if you turn out to be an American who just happens to be living in Paris. My spell checker developed a hernia when it checked this post. :( :D )

M'enva te dire une chose mon grand.Ton "SpellChecker" est totalement pourri,trouve en un autre caline de bine.

;)

Paris tu veux rire,les bagnoles en feu...ca chauffe la.

i knew he had to be french :rolleyes:

i knew he had to be french :rolleyes:

Jawohl?
Jahaha!

The OP PM'ed me on another site, with word that he is having a hard time logging on ...

I took my first post here ... on page 1 ... and edited it to reflect the scoring summary.

The OP PM'ed me on another site, with word that he is having a hard time logging on ...

I took my first post here ... on page 1 ... and edited it to reflect the scoring summary.

Thanks Craig :D

Why does Def Tech have such a bad rep on this board?

After reading about the anticipation of the AV123 MFW-15 sub on AV123's forum, I'm looking forward to craigsub finally getting your hands (and ears!) on it and review it. :cool:

I'm one of the many who've been educated on this forum about SVS and HSU subs, and like so many before me, I'm trying to pick one. I know, I know, either one will make me very happy--but which will make me happier? :p

Okay, so here's my real question: What differences resulted in the following scores? I've filtered for the models closest to what I'm considering. Are the scores-behind-the-scores documented anywhere? Will a schmuck like me even notice the difference between 92 points and 86 points?


Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo: 91 points
SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points
SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points

Other random thoughts and recommendations are also welcome. Here's more data on my HT:
- 2000 cf basement room (finished walls [over concrete on three sides], brick fireplace, carpeted)
- New receiver coming soon (probably Onkyo 905 or Integra 8.8)
- Dali Ikon 6 fronts (will be bi-amped if I get the receiver above), Ikon Vokal 2 center, Ikon On-walls rear (5.1--may go to 7.1 someday)
- crappy sub that has got to go
- 106" greyhawk screen, Optoma H77 projector, Xbox 360 w/ HD-DVD, Yammy S2500
- Mostly movies, but music, too.

I'm not looking for something to shake my neighbor's house; I just want a good sub to handle the low end. Once in a while when the family's away I might rattle the rafters a little, but mostly I'll be using it at "normal" listening levels, so I want a sub that performs well at that end, too. Would the VTF 3 Mk 3 and PB-12+ be overkill?

Thanks,

Shane

Shane, anyone with "The Big Lebowski" in his Avatar and who calls himself "a big schmuck" deserves a good subwoofer.

The VTF-3.3 beat the PB12-NSD slightly in output and also on music. It is also $125, or 20% more, with delivery included.

If you did not hear them side by side, you would swear either one is a killer sub.

There is no way either will be overkill for your room ... they will merely provide as much bass as you tell them to.

Thanks for the quick response, Craig. I was already leaning toward the Hsu as I had the impression from somewhere that it might beat the SVS on music, though the footprint and lower weight of the SVS cylinders is a plus.

Have a virtual Perfect Margarita, on me.

One more question before I throw down... I'm guessing that between these two:

SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo: 86 points

The SVS has a little more output and the Hsu scores higher on music?

One more question before I throw down... I'm guessing that between these two:

SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo: 86 points

The SVS has a little more output and the Hsu scores higher on music?

What is the actual difference between 86 points and 87? I'm looking into buying a new sub and I notice that the SVS PB12-Plus/2 has a score of 87 and the two above have a score of 86. The Plus/2 is roughly $1000 more then the two above, so can some one help me out here and unconfuse me please. What are these points based on?

What is the actual difference between 86 points and 87? I'm looking into buying a new sub and I notice that the SVS PB12-Plus/2 has a score of 87 and the two above have a score of 86. The Plus/2 is roughly $1000 more then the two above, so can some one help me out here and unconfuse me please. What are these points based on?

The Plus/2 will play louder, but I found (and so did the other listeners) the PB-12 NSD to be better sounding ...

If you are thinking SVS, and want to spend around $1100-$1400, I would take dual PB12-NSD's over the Plus/2. :)

One more question before I throw down... I'm guessing that between these two:

SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo: 86 points

The SVS has a little more output and the Hsu scores higher on music?

That pretty much sums it up ... One other intangible that is not reflected in the scoring is the SVS is also a more "unbreakable, unscrewupable" design. Yes, I just made up a new word ... :D

For someone looking in the $600 range, a nice aspect of the SVS design is you will never bottom it, and never get it to make a bad noise.

The 2 Hsu subs (2.3 and 3.3) and the PB12-NSD are all 3 excellent choices.

I'm looking at a new sub and I'm up in the air right now. Based on my room dimensions and WAF, I can only put the sub/subs beside my sofa facing forward. I know this is far from ideal, but would it still be alright?

Room: opens up to dining room, hallway, kitchen doorway & stairs going down
Room Size: 14W x 20L x 8H

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V2200
Fronts: Bose 701 (bought in 2001)
Center: Mission 77c
Rear: Bose 301 (bought in 2001)
Rear Center: Bose VCS10 (bought in 2001)

I've seen several references to the importance of having your Center, mains and surround speakers all match (ie being from the same product line).

How important is this with a subwoofer? Can I match Axiom speakers with an HSU sub, or Rockets with a trinity sub? What issues might adding a subwoofer from a different company present?

No issues. Any sub will work. Don't need to match. If you do, you'll make yourself extremely limited.

I've seen several references to the importance of having your Center, mains and surround speakers all match (ie being from the same product line).

How important is this with a subwoofer? Can I match Axiom speakers with an HSU sub, or Rockets with a trinity sub? What issues might adding a subwoofer from a different company present?

How important? Not at all.
Can I match Axiom speakers with an HSU sub, or Rockets with a trinity sub? Absolutely.
What issues might adding a subwoofer from a different company present? None.

Just choose the sub that fits your needs best, be it Hsu, SVS, whatever else, and go for it. Speakers from Axiom, Rocket, etc. will blend just fine with any quality sub. When you're dealing with sub/sat systems (that is, small satellite speakers), blending them with a sub can be a bit more of an issue, but it doesn't sound like you're looking at that route.

I was just curious where the lower end HSU's would be on Craigsub's list, specifically the STF-1?

I'm one of the many who've been educated on this forum about SVS and HSU subs, and like so many before me, I'm trying to pick one. I know, I know, either one will make me very happy--but which will make me happier? :p

Okay, so here's my real question: What differences resulted in the following scores? I've filtered for the models closest to what I'm considering. Are the scores-behind-the-scores documented anywhere? Will a schmuck like me even notice the difference between 92 points and 86 points?


Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo: 91 points
SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points
SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points

Other random thoughts and recommendations are also welcome. Here's more data on my HT:
- 2000 cf basement room (finished walls [over concrete on three sides], brick fireplace, carpeted)
- New receiver coming soon (probably Onkyo 905 or Integra 8.8)
- Dali Ikon 6 fronts (will be bi-amped if I get the receiver above), Ikon Vokal 2 center, Ikon On-walls rear (5.1--may go to 7.1 someday)
- crappy sub that has got to go
- 106" greyhawk screen, Optoma H77 projector, Xbox 360 w/ HD-DVD, Yammy S2500
- Mostly movies, but music, too.

I'm not looking for something to shake my neighbor's house; I just want a good sub to handle the low end. Once in a while when the family's away I might rattle the rafters a little, but mostly I'll be using it at "normal" listening levels, so I want a sub that performs well at that end, too. Would the VTF 3 Mk 3 and PB-12+ be overkill?

Thanks,

Shane
If you're going to spend so much money on a receiver (that 905 is in the mid teens, I think), you might as well not skimp on a sub. You can always lower it, but if it's too underpowered, you can't make it bigger.

For 2,000 cu. ft., either of those subs will work fine, but like I said, you might as well spend a little more on the sub since you're spending so much on the receiver.

Hey Craig,

What sub would you recommend in the $500-$700 range?

About 95% movies, room is 12 X 23 open to a kitchen, dining room & stairway going up.

About 95% movies, room is 12 X 23 open to a kitchen, dining room & stairway going up.Is this just something in Iowa where they build stairs that only go up? :)

I know what you mean, it just reads funny.

Is this just something in Iowa where they build stairs that only go up? :)

I know what you mean, it just reads funny.

I have stairs that go down to, but not a factor.

Is this just something in Iowa where they build stairs that only go up? :)

I know what you mean, it just reads funny.

If you're on the top floor they could go down, but then you'd have to go up them to get to the system, so it's a wash.

Hey Craig, I'm curious why you rated the F113 8 points higher than the F112. A lot of people who have heard both say they sound pretty much the same except the F113 has a little more ouput. According the Smith from JL the difference is about 3dB and 1hz extension.

The Axiom EP500 in the list, is that the v2? If not, I was wondering where you think it would be rated as well as a rough guess where the EP600 v2 would be rated as well. While I'm asking for guesses, can you add where you think the PB13 Ultra will fit as well

Hey guys, I think Craig is on vacation with his family and won't be back for a few weeks.

James ... I am here ... we leave on the 4th of August.

The Fathom 113 is about 3-4 dB more potent than the 112, and goes a little deeper. 8 points represents about a 40% increase in performance. Run the math, and it will make sense.

I don't believe there were performance upgrades for the V.2 Axiom subs ... just some different porting, and the addition of wood finishes.

The Ultra 13 is slated to be here as soon as it is released.

Finally ... I just opened a Dana Audio Sub 600 ... an 8 inch Peerless driver in a ported cabinet.

On music, it is tremendous. More later ... :)