Official Craigsub rankings thread

[new27]

This was taken fron AV123 boards, it is GOLD imo and deserving of it's own thread. Bravo Craig!

edited Jan 18 to reflect the addition of the HSU VTF 3.3 and SVS PB12-NSD
edited Jan 19 to reflect the addition of the SVS PB10-NSD
edited Jan 23 to reflect the addition of the HSU VTF 2.3


JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points
Velodyne DD-18: 100 points
ACI Maestro: 97 points
JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo: 91 points
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points
Axiom EP-500: 90 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo: 88 points
SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points
SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo: 86 points
Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
SVS PB10-NSD: 83 points
Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
Rocket Tyke: 60 points


As you can see, the "least performing" subwoofer still delivers 60 points. The Tyke really cannot deliver subwoofer performance. It still will add foundation to bookshelf speakers, and is a pretty good barometer for the entry level sub.

The Axiom EP-500 and the PB12-Ultra are virtual ties. The Axiom is a little more articulate, while the Ultra yields an extra 1/2 octave deeper.

The UFW-12 is the original version, and is only limited due to the fact it only manages 25 Hz. MLS mentioned getting me the upgraded driver/amp package. So, as with the Hsu, the rating is a provisional one.

For the scale, I consider 75 to be about the point in which a subwoofer is having a major beneficial impact on the overall system ... and the X-sub qualifies for that distinction.

Also ... Later the Hsu VTF-3 HO and the MBM-12 will be tested as a $1500 subwoofer, which will be the price for both, including the Turbo.

When evaluating these subs, I wanted to develop a system which would be easy to follow ... yet allow for a HUGE difference in the performance between, say, a TYKE and a Fathom 113.

In a direct linear fashion, the Tyke might look like it is 58.25% the sub the 113 is. Of course, it is not.

How the scaling works is this: each 3 points represents a 15% higher level of overall performance. It is also cumulative.

For example, The Fathom 113 is 43 points higher than the TYKE. Grab a calculator, and you will see you have 14.33 consecutive 15% improvements.

Take 1.15 x 1, and do it 14 times, and you get 7.08. Next, multiply 7.075 x 1.05, and you get 7.43.

In other words, the Fathom has 743% higher performance than does the Tyke.

The Hsu VTF-3 HO W/Turbo has 38.9% higher performance than does the SVS PB12-Plus/2 (in this case, the overall musicality added to extension wins the day).

The Fathom 113 has 46.5% higher performance than does the 112.

As an aside, to keep this from being overcomplicated, each single point outside the 3 point criteria is scored at 1.05, not according to a true scale, which would be 1.0477.

[TJEli]

Hey come on now.... I read all 71 pages of that thread....everyone else should have to as well. :p

-Eli

[TheEAR]

He he my dual f113 are happy campers. At the top :p Take that competition,oups I own the competing subs too. :o

[thebland]

Oh, boy.........Let's Get Ready to Rummmmmmbbbblllleeeeee.......!!!!!!

[David James]

Anyone know where the old school Hsu TN1220 would rank? I'm trying to decide if I want to move up in the world and what exactly would be "up".

[MusicFirst]

Nice little ranking system Craig has. I remember the preliminary points for the f113 was 106 I think. I guess he felt the DD-18 and the f113 were closer than he originally thought.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how Mark Seatons new subs will rank. :)

[bgillyjcu]

Wow....I'd like to hear this F113 and F112.

They have to be GOD LIKE!

[craigsub]

Here is the scoring summary with the Home Theater score and Music score, respectively shown as (HT-M).

Prices and whether the items are available Internet Direct or from a store are now included. Keep in mind that ID pricing will usually be firm, or slightly discounted, where some BM products will see substantial discounts. BM = Brick and Mortar. ID = Internet Direct. ID/SI = shipping included.

Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2200 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)
AV123 MFW-15 Duals: 109 points (56-53) (note, duals were tested as duals are offered as a package)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48)
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
VMPS VSS ($1650 BM and ID): 92 points (45-47)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)
Rocket Tyke: 60 points (If you care, PM me ... :))

Pending subwoofers ...

VMPS VSS Powered sub - Early March, 2008
AV123 BMF ... Not sure of date
Epik Knight ... Not sure of Date

*: The Hsu MBM-12 has been tried with several subwoofers here. We found it to be a good room solution, for times when the best placement with a subwoofer for the deep stuff did not necessarily give the best performance in the 50-80 Hz area. We could not come up with a consistent way of scoring it with the other subs, including the VTF-3 HO. Instead, it is suggested to be look at as a possible enchancement to any subwoofer package.

Listening procedures:

All listening us done under blind conditions. The panel of listeners include several very experienced audiophiles, some of whom also design and build high end pro audio speakers. The subwoofers were each placed in the identical room position, and eq'ed to have a fairly flat (3 dB window) response curve from 18 Hz and up, when the subwoofer was able to go that "low".

Measuring procedures: All measurements are taken at 2 meters/GP from the front baffle of a subwoofer. In the case of a ported sub, the microphone is placed so it is 2 meters from the center of the driver(s) and port. The posted measured results are max "clean" 20 Hz output and the average from 20 to 63 Hz. If it seemed like the amp was the limiting factor in output, "AL" is added to the 20 Hz SPL.

The purpose of this information is to help people to quickly look at a variety of subwoofers and get a pair of scores, some performance numbers, and some listening tests describing the characteristics of each subwoofer. Hopefully, this will provide some assistance when researching for a subwoofer purchase. There will be times that a lower rated sub will work better for someone than a higher rated sub. For example, size, or output, in a lower rated sub may make a difference. Listening preferences may also make a difference. If slam is valued over extension, some subs excel at the 30-60 Hz slam. For others, extension will be the most important issue.

1. Elemental Designs A7-900.

Listening results: This subwoofer has almost no weaknesses. It presents everything from the deepest pipe organ and movie bass spectaculars to a hard driving bass guitar with an effortless quality that is the best we have heard to date. On the WOTW machines emerge scene, there was nothing but waves of bass that one felt rolling through the room. The standard Steely Dan 2AN disc was tight, tuneful, and the 18 Hz bass present in this disc was easily felt, yet the upper bass regions were agile.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 113.5 dB AL ... 20-63 Hz average: 118 dB AL

2. Epik Conquest

Listening results: This subwoofer is hard to distinguish from the A7-900. Once again, pipe organ, the WOTW scene, bass guitar - were all played effortlessly. It is not quite at powerful, nor as visceral, as the bigger eD sub, but it is also an easier sub to live with for some rooms, because it is not quite as large as is the eD.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 111.5 dB AL ... 20-63 Hz average: 116.5 dB AL.

3a. SVS PB13-Ultra

Listening results: This subwoofer delivers incredible performance from a moderate sized box. It is almost on par with the larger Conquest and eD subs in terms of delivering palpable bass, and it is as articulate as the standard bearer Fathom 113. A great choice when one is looking for a combination of reasonable WAF and performance.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 108 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 113.5 dB

3b. Epik Castle

Listening results: Another subwoofer of reasonable size which also gives a terrific performance. It loses some in articulation to the SVS, but also has a bit more authority on powerful movie scenes. It is a solid choice when one wants a large slice of the Conquest/A7-900 performance in a package that is easier to live with.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 108.5 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 115.5 dB

3c. AV123 MFW-15

Listening results: Pairing two MFW-15's does exactly what one would expect, it adds a signifigant amount of slam to the areas in which the single unit excelled. What a pair of MFW-15's does above 20 Hz is what makes it the 3rd alternative in the $1500 and under category for excellent performance for the $$$. On music, it is tight, clean and tuneful. It is the other sub combo the brought the Steely Dan 2AN disc to life. On movies, one will experience room shaking bass that is visceral, with the best slam of any subwoofer in its class. It is overshadowed below 20 Hz by the Castle and Ultra, and it will be up to the listener to decide which of the 3 "109 pointers" works best in his system.



4. Creative Sounds DIY Dual SDX-15

Listening results: After carefully adjusting for a proper shelving curve (kudos to Mark Seaton for the tutorial on the 2496), this subwoofer gave a credible performance. The only real downside is that the new Castle from Epik is a superior performer in a smaller package for less money and no labor required.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 104 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 115 dB

5a. JL Audio Fathom 113

Listening results: The built in ARO system makes calibration into one's system a snap. The Fathom allows the well heeled audiophile to get an unmatched combination of powerful bass and extension with bass quality that matches the finest monitor speakers, all in a package that will fit in a room of high quality furniture. The panel of listeners was shocked that something so compact could deliver such visceral bass. This is the first subwoofer that delivers on the promise of small size with true subwoofer performance.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 102 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 112.5 dB

5b. AV-123 MFW-15.

Listening results: The MFW-15 amazed the panel by largely matching the PB13 Ultra in all musical areas with the exception of pipe organ. Bass is deep, tight and powerful, with no overhang at all. The cabinet work done on this subwoofer is absolultely stellar, especially in its price range. By stellar, we mean just how inert it is. The cabinet barely vibrates during the most powerful passages, and this helps the MFW-15 to get its excellent musical rating. It is, as an earlier graph shows, very linear in its response curve, all the way to 100 Hz. It is in the area of slam an linearity that allows this subwoofer to match more high priced units. The Steely Dan disc on this subwoofer is a bass head's dream, with a lot of the panel requesting to hear it again after the test. Stanley Clarke was also as crystal clear on the MFW-15 as with any subwoofer we have had.

Measured results... 20 Hz - 105 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 112 dB

6. Definitive Technology Trinity

Listening results: The Trinity surprised a few listeners by being much musical than a dual active 14 and quad passive 14 inch drivered sub "should". Its music/movie weakness was above 60 Hz, and this sub is a total performer when used with a 50-60 Hz crossover. For home theater, no sub here delivered a better performance on the machines emerge scene from WOTW, while Steely Dan's 2AN was almost as good as the Elemental Design's delivery.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 109 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 115.5 dB

7. Velodyne DD-18.

Listening results: The big Velodyne was our original standard bearer here. It is a beast above 25 Hz, and is the ultimate in "plug and play", in regards to its auto eq. The DD-18 is still worthy of consideration, but it is eclipsed by many newer offerings.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 95 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 109 dB

8. ACI Maestro (2nd edition).

Listening results: The ACI shares a lot with the DD-18. At the time we teste it, it was a spectacular performer. It delivers a solid 25 Hz floor, with a roll off below that. It does not handle the WOTW scene as well as a $2400 subwoofer should, but on music it is stellar.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 95 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 108 dB (note, these #'s are a lot lower than the original Maestro. At the time of the original Maestro, I measure @ 1 meter from center of enclosure, or about 18 inches from driver, and achieved 107 dB).

9. Elemental Designs A5-350

Listening results: The eD surprised a lot of the panel with its ability to retain excellent music scores. It is another sub that loves the 2AN disc, and most were impressed when they find out it was a $715 subwoofer. It also handles the WOTW scene with a lot of power and floor shaking ability. It does not quite match the more expensive subs in articulation, but for $715, it is a bargain.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 105 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 111 dB.

10. JL Audio F-112

Listening results: From 25 Hz and up, it is impossible to tell the difference between it and the Fathom 113. It is an outstanding compact subwoofer. The general concensus, though, was if one was going to buy a 112, spend the extra $$$ and get a 113.

Measured results ... Not measured. Sorry, somehow this slipped past us.

11. Hsu VTF-3HO (With and Without Turbo)

Listening results: For a subwoofer package of $900 to $1000, the Hsu VTF-3 HO was, at the time of its release, the standard bearer in its price range. It is exceptional on music, and delivers slam on HT which will impress anyone used to what is normally purchased for more money at a store. The Turbo adds extra heft below the 20 Hz standard for a true subwoofer, and the Hsu is a solid choice even today for someone looking for a relatively compact subwoofer.

Measured results : 20 Hz... 101-102 dB (depending on configuration) ... 20-63 Hz Average ... 108 dB

12. Hsu VTF-3.3 (With and without Turbo)

Listening results: The VTF-3.3 is very close overall to the VTF-3 HO. It is exceptional for its price, in terms of its output and visceral feel. For music, it is unmatched in its price range - or was, until the Epik Valor came along. This is a subwoofer that goes beyond its measured numbers, and for its often quoted sale price of $629, an exceptional value.

Measured results: 20 Hz: 100-101 dB (depending on configuration) ... 20-63 Hz average ... 107 dB

13. VMPS VSS

Listening results: The VMPS is a very capable subwoofer, with excellent power to 30 Hz, and adequate power below 30 Hz. It is a good choice for someone who places a premium on music performance, especially classical music. Bass is subjectively deep and tight on discs like Two Against Nature. It does lack in visceral response to many other subwoofers, including several less costly competitors.

Measured results: TBD

14. Epic Valor

Listening results: The Valor is a subwoofer which will be the answer to many budget audiophile's dreams. It is an exceptional musical performer from about 18 Hz and up, with a very agile presentation of bass at all times. In our smaller basement theater, using a pretty good high end set up, it amazed listeners in its presentation of the Steely Dan 2AN disc, and also with its slam for HT. It is not an SPL monster like the Castle, but in the right room, it is magic.

Measured Results: 20 Hz... 99 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 109 dB

15. SVS PB-12 Ultra

Listening results: A terrific subwoofer considering its 2002 design. It remained competitive in the $1200 - $1500 arena until 2007, when it was replaced by the PB13-Ultra. The "old" Ultra was at one time a standard bearer for performance, and remains a solid mid pack subwoofer today.

Measured results: 20 Hz ... 102 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 109 dB

16. Axiom EP-500

Listening results: The EP-500 was one of the first subwoofers to stress linearity across its frequency band. What is somewhat ironic is it sounds more like the baby brother to the new PB-13 Ultra than do smaller SVS models. It is capable of surprising amounts of bass slam, and is excetionally articulate for music. Its down side is that is current price is rather expensive for the performance. Its up side is it is quite compact, and an excellent choice when space is a consideration.

Measured results: 20 Hz ... 97 dB ... 20-63 Hz average ... 107 dB

[craigsub]

Wow....I'd like to hear this F113 and F112.

They have to be GOD LIKE!

We may have a GTG at our home ... Erie is a pretty easy drive from Cleveland. It would be a lot of fun, and educational, for you to come up and join in on some blind tests.

[mazersteven]

We may have a GTG at our home ... Erie is a pretty easy drive from Cleveland. It would be a lot of fun, and educational, for you to come up and join in on some blind tests.

Just take Peach Street to Subwoofer Way. :eek: :D

[jhan1000]

We may have a GTG at our home ... Erie is a pretty easy drive from Cleveland. It would be a lot of fun, and educational, for you to come up and join in on some blind tests.

I would definitely be interested in participating, since I am in the market for a new subwoofer.

I would try to bring my beautiful wife as well. She makes mean martinis. But then again, I don't think that would be such a good idea. Analogous to beer glasses, after two martinis, everything would start sounding good. :D

[dweekie]

There wouldn't be a calculation for dual subs on here, would there? Like, 2 of the same subs would add a certein number of points? I'd be sad if my dual svs ultra subs would lose out to the single hsu turbo/HO that's half the price. I'd love to hear one of those in person, along with a fathom 113.

[buffexec]

I guess my MK subs are shiity.....LOL



Walt

[craigsub]

There wouldn't be a calculation for dual subs on here, would there? Like, 2 of the same subs would add a certein number of points? I'd be sad if my dual svs ultra subs would lose out to the single hsu turbo/HO that's half the price. I'd love to hear one of those in person, along with a fathom 113.

There is no calculation for dual subs here. However, your post just brought up a few points which need to be discussed.

If you look at the ratings of the Ultra Vs. The VTF-3 HO, The newest Hsu scored 10-20% higher than did the Ultra, based on a combination of blind tests and the measurements.

Other people may audition the same 2 subs and come to the opposite conclusion from mine. The Hsu DOES hit deeper, and, to me, handles music in a more accurate fashion than does the Ultra.

The two subs scored closely enough that both are in a "close enough that either will do a great job" category.

As an aside, I CRINGED when I saw this thread. The sub wars here tend to get pretty fiesty. This is why I did not post the results here myself.

Hopefully, over the next few months, as I get a chance to catalog a few more subs, it will become clear that this is merely an attempt to help people who are looking for a new subwoofer to wade through a lot of info fairly quickly.

[craigsub]

I guess my MK subs are shiity.....LOL



Walt

M&K makes some SERIOUSLY good sounding subwoofers. They are among the best at getting the 25-80 Hz band done right. So, no, yours are not shiity ... :)

I would love to get my hands on the new 5100 ... I don't think they even have a dealer near here.

[David Bott]

Yes, this thread will not end well. (Go figure)

REMINDER TO ALL...DO NOT GET DEFENSIVE IF SOMEONE DOES NOT RATE THE SUB YOU OWN AS THE BEST. I am sure you can find a review that makes yours out to be great. Reviews are all over the place.

What I am saying is...DO NOT START TO ATTACK PEOPLE!

Thank you.

[Darin]

This is why I did not post the results here myself.
WHAT?!?! So this is NOT the official Craigsub rankings thread?

;)

[craigsub]

WHAT?!?! So this is NOT the official Craigsub rankings thread?

;)

Darin, if this was an official ANYTHING of mine, you know there would be a happy hour involved somewhere. Do you see a bar here ?

Nope.

This is the unofficial, why are we here ?, thread ... :D

[dweekie]

Darin, if this was an official ANYTHING of mine, you know there would be a happy hour involved somewhere. Do you see a bar here ?

Nope.

This is the unofficial, why are we here ?, thread ... :D

Well, the "unofficial" guides to everything are always more popular than the "official" ones. If you go to any bookstore, doesn't the "Unofficial guide to ____" catch your attention a lot quicker than the "official" guides?

[rockemsockem]

There have been several threads where people in the market for subs are second guessing their purchase after all the news about the new subs on the market. I basically have said that you guys are pretty much nuts over bass, and if this is their first time hearing true bass from SVS, HSU, and the like, then they will be blown away compared to what they have heard from most sub $1000 retail subs.

I think it's important to remember, that even though craig and the gang may feel that X sub is 20% better than Y sub, that most people wouldn't even know the difference if you told them what to listen for. It's just great that there are so many options on the market.

Now excuse me while I go apply for a home equity loan to buy a new sub. :-)

[bobbi15]

Darin, if this was an official ANYTHING of mine, you know there would be a happy hour involved somewhere. Do you see a bar here ?

Nope.

This is the unofficial, why are we here ?, thread ... :D

I have the DD18. But what do you think of the Triad 18" subwoofer?
Thanks in advance.

[bgillyjcu]

We may have a GTG at our home ... Erie is a pretty easy drive from Cleveland. It would be a lot of fun, and educational, for you to come up and join in on some blind tests.


I would be in 100%. VERY FUN and def. an educational experience that you cannot get many other places.

I don't think I could bring my PB-12NSD with me for the sheer size....and the fact that you are going to be listening to MONSTERS compared to my "little" PB12......but I have a pretty good bet that I could bring us some beer to make it an OFFICIAL meet :D

Just gotta take it easy....dont want to get "ear goggles" as someone mentioned earlier!!! :)

[craigsub]

I have the DD18. But what do you think of the Triad 18" subwoofer?
Thanks in advance.

It is a very nice subwoofer. You would be hard pressed to hear a big difference between it and your Velo.

[craigsub]

I would be in 100%. VERY FUN and def. an educational experience that you cannot get many other places.

I don't think I could bring my PB-12NSD with me for the sheer size....and the fact that you are going to be listening to MONSTERS compared to my "little" PB12......but I have a pretty good bet that I could bring us some beer to make it an OFFICIAL meet :D

Just gotta take it easy....dont want to get "ear goggles" as someone mentioned earlier!!! :)

Actually, for box size, yours would be up there. We do have a PB12-Plus/2, a PB12-Ultra, and a PB10-ISD here ... SVS will be well represented.

You have to EARN a beer though ... you have to carry a 113 from our family room to the basement theater room... :eek: :D

[bgillyjcu]

You have to EARN a beer though ... you have to carry a 113 from our family room to the basement theater room... :eek:

27 years old -----5'9 160lbs is not going to carry that monster around.

Although I must note I MYSELF manged to get my PB-12 out of my car, carry it into my house and place it where I wanted it.

Then I chugged about 2 beers and wanted someone to give me some vicodin for the pain in my back. LOL

[ransac]

Then I chugged about 2 beers and wanted someone to give me some vicodin for the pain in my back. LOLI can one-up you, but you will have to search to find out what I'm talking about. :p

[craigsub]

I can one-up you, but you will have to search to find out what I'm talking about. :p

Are you the gent who had a heart attack from carrying in his Ultra about ... 2 years ago ?

[ransac]

Is time moving that fast for you? Must be the 40something syndrome. :)
It was a +/2 and it was in April 2006.
I was just going to give gilly something to do. I believe the threads from April are already deleted.

[craigsub]

Is time moving that fast for you? Must be the 40something syndrome. :)
It was a +/2 and it was in April 2006.

Actually, if 8 months seems like 2 years, time is moving SLOW for me. At 46, I'll TAKE IT ... :D

It really does seem like "forever ago" ... glad you recovered. :)

[David James]

Craig: Any thoughts on where a TN1220 would rate?

[bgillyjcu]

Actually, if 8 months seems like 2 years, time is moving SLOW for me. At 46, I'll TAKE IT ... :D

It really does seem like "forever ago" ... glad you recovered. :)


DAMN....don't worry I'll do the lifting!!!!!!!!!!!LOL

[craigsub]

DAMN....don't worry I'll do the lifting!!!!!!!!!!!LOL

I carried both 113's, the 112, and the DD-18 in by myself. I just SOUND old .. :D

[bgillyjcu]

I'm callin up Barry and gettin the Cream or the Clear tomorrow. Can't have you carrying those beasts and out doing me!

LOL

[jedi.night]

Craig,

Where do the SVS Cylinder line of Sub's fall in on this chart?

Since, according to SVS (at least what I was told by them) they are equals to to specific Boxed named sub, would the SVS PC-Ultra fall in with the SVS PB12-Ultra.
I was told by SVS that they are basically equals, just different in their packaging.
Box vs Cylinder.

Thanks...

[gbondioli]

Well, I see other people requesting you to rank other subs on your chart, so I'll throw another request out to you, Craig:
Axiom EP600
That was tops on my shopping list before the VTF-3 HO came out. I'm getting the feeling that the HO will outperform this $1780 sub, especially with Turbo... And if they are evenly matched, the price difference will help me decide ;)
Thanks!

[DreamCatcher]

I carried both 113's, the 112, and the DD-18 in by myself. I just SOUND old .. :D
And they were stacked on top of each other :eek:

I'm getting the MBM-12 tomorrow to go with my 3HO w/Turbo, I guess we could call it the MBM-3HO Turbo :)
I've had the 3HO Turbo in my system for a couple of weeks. I've been very impressed with it's depth and musical presentation (and that's coming from the
Fathom f113 and prior to that the PB12-NSD). I sold the f113 to a local friend who wanted a second f113 and picked up the HO3 as a stop gap until the Gotham G213 becomes available. Let's just say I'm not in a big hurry anymore for the Gotham. And now here comes the MBM-12 :)
Anyway 3HO is placed in a front corner (about 14 feet from main listening postion) and the MBM will be placed under a desk that's along side the main listening postion (nearfield).
The local f113 friend will be coming by tomorrow to help evaluate the effects of adding the MBM-12. Should be interesting :D

dc

[craigsub]

Well, I see other people requesting you to rank other subs on your chart, so I'll throw another request out to you, Craig:
Axiom EP600
That was tops on my shopping list before the VTF-3 HO came out. I'm getting the feeling that the HO will outperform this $1780 sub, especially with Turbo... And if they are evenly matched, the price difference will help me decide ;)
Thanks!

The Axiom EP-600 was slightly ahead of the Ultra, and the EP-500, of course. Based on the experience with the subs that are still here, a non Turbo VTF-3 HO and an EP-600 would both score a 92 on this scale.

[Schwingding]

You all have cursed me. Within the past 2 months I have bought two PB12 Plus/2 s. They make me grin from ear to ear.

However, I did not need to see this thread. Please go away and leave me alone.

[craigsub]

You all have cursed me. Within the past 2 months I have bought two PB12 Plus/2 s. They make me grin from ear to ear.

However, I did not need to see this thread. Please go away and leave me alone.

They are excellent subwoofers. All that DOES matter is they are making you grin ear to ear. :)

[bgillyjcu]

You all have cursed me. Within the past 2 months I have bought two PB12 Plus/2 s. They make me grin from ear to ear.

However, I did not need to see this thread. Please go away and leave me alone.

Well I didn't spend nearly as much as you did, but I too Recent purchased an SVS pb-12 and after reading this thread and the conversation that is happening in the 25-30 vs 20-39pci thread I'm seriously doubting if I made the right purchase.

Original plan was to get a PB-12 now and down the road get another one.

NOW I'm wondering I should have just spent all the money now and got 1 giant PB-12/2 PLUS , or just got 1 20-39PCI PLUS now and another later.

OR went with HSU or something else because those rankings are impressive and others thoughts and opinions are very strong and convincing!

LOL.....Damn I love this forum!

[ssabripo]

I carried both 113's, the 112, and the DD-18 in by myself. I just SOUND old .. :D
boewlsh!t old man.....you ARE old! :D :eek: ....and didn't you tell me you payed Jose to carry them subs in the house? oh wait...or was it Juan? Jesus maybe? :confused:



:p

[craigsub]

boewlsh!t old man.....you ARE old! :D :eek: ....and didn't you tell me you payed Jose to carry them subs in the house? oh wait...or was it Juan? Jesus maybe? :confused:



:p

This is my new PR man.

[jz4h3m]

The reviewer spent a lot of time explaining how the scaling works, that +/- 3 points is statistically insignificant, etc. but there is no explanation of the most important calculation: how the number of points were derived. Was it by another formula based on specs or maybe independent measurements, or just a number arbitrarily assigned by the reviewer?

[craigsub]

spent a lot of time explaining how the scaling works, that +/- 3 points is statistically insignificant, etc. but there is no explanation of the most important calculation: how the number of points were derived. Was it by another formula based on specs or maybe independent measurements, or just a number arbitrarily assigned by the reviewer?

This was explained on AV123 ... but since the final info was moved here, the following performance parameters were used ... and it is a combination of objective data and blind listening sessions ...

1. Frequency response / linearity
2. Clean SPL delivering ability at frequencies starting at 16 Hz up to 80 Hz
3. Performance on music
4. Performance with movies

I currently have about 450 hours logged into this shootout, and have pages upon pages of notes.

Here is a slice of objective data which went towards the numbers as assigned: The ability of the various subs to deliver high SPL on difficult scenes. To keep this simple, let's look at the VTF-3 HO vs. the SVS PB12-Plus/2 on the lightning scene from WOTW.

PB12-Plus/2:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/svslgt20hz.jpg

VTF-3 HO With Turbo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/hsulgttrbo.jpg

VTF-3 HO W/O Turbo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/hsulgtnotrbo.jpg

[craigsub]

Looking at the above graphs, it is pretty clear that The HO equipped VTF-3 HO is a much more powerful performer below 20 Hz than the non Turbo or the SVS. In real world testing, it delivers on what is shown in the graphs.

The differences between the Non-Turbo HO and the SVS are more in the subjective: Under blind conditions, the VTF-3 HO handles bass transients better than does the SVS. You feel explosions in a more visceral way with the Hsu. A stand up bass sounds more natural.

Questions are appreciated ... :)

[MKtheater]

My PB12/plus/2 performs better than that.

[MKtheater]

I am seriously thinking of getting the DTS-20.

[anonymouse99]

Hi craigsub, what am I missing, where does PB10-ISD stack up in this list ?

[craigsub]

My PB12/plus/2 performs better than that.

Can you expand on this ? The graph, as shown, reflects the subwoofer's response taken at the listening position in a 4500 ^ 3 foot room. The lightning scene was reproduced (by each subwoofer) at increasingly higher levels of SPL, until it started to overload.

Is your Plus/2 capable of exceeding the performance we got here from ours ?

[craigsub]

Hi craigsub, what am I missing, where does PB10-ISD stack up in this list ?

The PB10 has not been part of this test, as it was replaced by the NSD version.

[Richard Mayer]

The PB10 has not been part of this test, as it was replaced by the NSD version.
IIRC the new NSD is identical (performance wise) with the older ISD version.

[craigsub]

IIRC the new NSD is identical (performance wise) with the older ISD version.

Richard, you are correct as far as that statement being made. However, the only fair way to test the PB10 is with the newest driver, IMO.

For $430, it is absolutely one of the best buys currently on the market.

[JimP]

Any idea if and when Mark Seaton's BMF might be included in the ranking?

[ThomasV555]

This is my new PR man.

LOL!

Craig are you trying to put together a library of subs that can be compared back and forth based on your testing?

[Mark Seaton]

Any idea if and when Mark Seaton's BMF might be included in the ranking?

There are plans to have Craig play with a SubMersive and then a BMF over the next few months. I expect both to compare rather well in the mix. ;)

[MKtheater]

I just can't see the svs overloading at 94 db's, not with 2 -12 inch drivers and a 900 watt amp. Mine hits 117 db's without sweating but the room is much smaller, about half. They are measured outside by svs to hit much higher levels than you reached. It just does not make sense unless something is wrong. The HSU has a 500 watt amp with one 12 inch driver. Now when you tell me the jl audio can play louder and tighter then the SVS lets see, 13 inch driver(sealed) with a 2500 watt amp, no we are talking. I know these are your measurements but something does not add up. Have you ever tested the DTS-20?

[craigsub]

Any idea if and when Mark Seaton's BMF might be included in the ranking?

We are waiting on the following subwoofers ...

AV123 MFW-15 and BMF, Mark Seaton's SUBmersive and at least one more from a company who contacted me in November, but wishes to remain anonymous for now. We are a;so expecting an upgrade kit for the AV123 UFW-12.

Unfortunately, I have no exact information as to when any of these subs will arrive.

[craigsub]

I just can't see the svs overloading at 94 db's, not with 2 -12 inch drivers and a 900 watt amp. Mine hits 117 db's without sweating but the room is much smaller, about half. They are measured outside by svs to hit much higher levels than you reached. It just does not make sense unless something is wrong. The HSU has a 500 watt amp with one 12 inch driver. Now when you tell me the jl audio can play louder and tighter then the SVS lets see, 13 inch driver(sealed) with a 2500 watt amp, no we are talking. I know these are your measurements but something does not add up. Have you ever tested the DTS-20?

You are looking at the wrong number. The 94 dB is the total SPL being delivered when I stopped the test. In other words, ignore that number. :)

This test was done in a "peak hold" setting. Look at the graph again, and you will see the Plus/2 delivering 111 dB just at the 22 Hz area alone.

Also, if you are using a Radioshack Meter, keep in mind it is showing you the total SPL at every frequency combined. This graph shows SPL at each different frequency.

We have not had the honor of checking out the DTS-20...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/svslgt20hz.jpg

[jhan1000]

We are waiting on the following subwoofers ...

AV123 MFW-15 and BMF, Mark Seaton's SUBmersive and at least one more from a company who contacted me in November, but wishes to remain anonymous for now. We are a;so expecting an upgrade kit for the AV123 UFW-12.

Unfortunately, I have no exact information as to when any of these subs will arrive.

Craig,

You are going to be a very busy person over the next several months. :)

I, as well as many others, look forward to hearing about your results.

-J

[JimP]

We are waiting on the following subwoofers ...

AV123 MFW-15 and BMF, Mark Seaton's SUBmersive and at least one more from a company who contacted me in November, but wishes to remain anonymous for now. We are a;so expecting an upgrade kit for the AV123 UFW-12.

Unfortunately, I have no exact information as to when any of these subs will arrive.

Looking forward to it.

[TJEli]

I just can't see the svs overloading at 94 db's, not with 2 -12 inch drivers and a 900 watt amp. Mine hits 117 db's without sweating but the room is much smaller, about half. They are measured outside by svs to hit much higher levels than you reached. It just does not make sense unless something is wrong. The HSU has a 500 watt amp with one 12 inch driver. Now when you tell me the jl audio can play louder and tighter then the SVS lets see, 13 inch driver(sealed) with a 2500 watt amp, no we are talking. I know these are your measurements but something does not add up. Have you ever tested the DTS-20?

You also need to remember that you are taking your readings at a higher frequency. I believe you were using the "Darla" scene which if I remember correctly is centered in the mid to high 30s. This will make a huge difference. Craigs room is also larger than yours.

You aren't comparing apples to apples...... so no need to worry. The only person you need to justify performance to is yourself. :) ;)

-Eli

[MKtheater]

That makes more sense. I am very interested in the av123 offerings as well as the submersive. I was thinking about upgrading my sub but I want to upgrade and not be more of a lateral move. Craig do you think the HSU is a good upgrade from my SVS or should I go higher on the list for more of an upgrade.

[swgiust]

Where is the SVS PB12-Ultra/2??

[craigsub]

That makes more sense. I am very interested in the av123 offerings as well as the submersive. I was thinking about upgrading my sub but I want to upgrade and not be more of a lateral move. Craig do you think the HSU is a good upgrade from my SVS or should I go higher on the list for more of an upgrade.

THAT is a tough question. I think the VTF-3 HO w/turbo is about a 20% better performer than the Plus/2. Objectively, you can see from the graph that yes, it hits deeper, plus there is the subjective end, which may or may not agree with your subjective findings.

Let's answer by starting here:

If you were considering both subs, my first suggestion would be to get both and keep the winner, according to your ears.

They are both excellent performers.

In your case, as you already own one ... selling yours for a loss to get what I think is a 20% improvement seems like a poor use of $$$$.

Before doing that ... What is it about the SVS that makes you think "I want more?"...

[rmlowz]

mKtheater,

If this helps your decision I change out often, Lately I have had the Klipsch Ultras Klipsch RT12d, Def Tech Trinity, DD 18 and the DTS20. I have sold all the others and just offered the DD18 to a friend. The DTS 20 is the best sub I have owned. In my opinion at my house the DTS 20 blows all the others away. Not that the subs I have mentioned are not great but the DTS 20 is in a whole different category of its own. Just my 2 cents.

rmlowz

[bgillyjcu]

Where is the SVS PB12-Ultra/2??

Yahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Where is that beast at?

[MKtheater]

I have owned M&K mx5000's, the Klipsch thx ultra 2(both of them) and preferred my SVS over both. I am 100% into movies. That does make sense about the HSU and losing on my sub. I don't think that will be a consideration. The reason for changing my sub is not about spl as I reach 117 db's on my rat shack with it tuned to 20 hz and the sub does not break a sweat. I am looking at quality of the bass. I know the svs is very good, I owned the M&K. I wonder if I tune my sub to the 16 hz tune it will dig deeper and still hit 115 db's. Will this be a better effect? I know when I went from 25 hz tune reaching 121 db's(I run it hot) to 20 hz tune I just feel more impact. Will I get even more with it tuned lower? Remember My sub can handle my room with no problem.

[DrewB]

Craig, did you have to go up to '103' because you had previously thought that DD-18 was the best and hence the '100' perfect score?

[TheEAR]

I will be watching. The top five I will miss.I buy them. :p

I think the rankings in SQ will be split among sealed subs. JL,Seaton Sound and the big Velo.

The vented subs,they all have a signature,no matter how well designed.Using dual PR's the Seaton designed BMF may rank high in SQ.

Come on Craig do not give up.Keep the subs moving air.

[cschang]

I have owned M&K mx5000's, the Klipsch thx ultra 2(both of them) and preferred my SVS over both. I am 100% into movies. That does make sense about the HSU and losing on my sub. I don't think that will be a consideration. The reason for changing my sub is not about spl as I reach 117 db's on my rat shack with it tuned to 20 hz and the sub does not break a sweat. I am looking at quality of the bass. I know the svs is very good, I owned the M&K. I wonder if I tune my sub to the 16 hz tune it will dig deeper and still hit 115 db's. Will this be a better effect? I know when I went from 25 hz tune reaching 121 db's(I run it hot) to 20 hz tune I just feel more impact. Will I get even more with it tuned lower? Remember My sub can handle my room with no problem.
At what frequency are you getting the 117, 115, and 121 numbers? You list the tuning of the sub for those numbers, but not the frequency you a playing to get those numbers. Big difference.

[anonymouse99]

Richard, you are correct as far as that statement being made. However, the only fair way to test the PB10 is with the newest driver, IMO.

For $430, it is absolutely one of the best buys currently on the market.

I was torn between a PB10-NSD and the AVS123 Rocket X-Sub (phenomenal WAF - see attached picture) and chose the X-Sub (78 pt rating) based on your recommendation. The family could not be happier :D

I wonder if you have a threshold of points in your rating system where you say for example, anything under 'xx' is deemed unacceptable and not homeworthy :D

[MKtheater]

At what frequency are you getting the 117, 115, and 121 numbers? You list the tuning of the sub for those numbers, but not the frequency you a playing to get those numbers. Big difference.


I have no idea. I just put in wotw and play the pod emerging scene. I sit about 8 feet away from the sub. The 115 is a guess if I tuned it to 16 hz and turned up the volume to get the same output. Fortunately for me my ceiling is not that high so it makes my cubic foot much smaller so it is very hard to over power this sub, not that I have tried.

[icehawk_OS]

MKtheater - from the first post

For the scale, I consider 75 to be about the point in which a subwoofer is having a major beneficial impact on the overall system ... and the X-sub qualifies for that distinction.

[icehawk_OS]

MKtheater - from the first post

For the scale, I consider 75 to be about the point in which a subwoofer is having a major beneficial impact on the overall system ... and the X-sub qualifies for that distinction.

Heh, my sub is probably like a 20. That or a new turntable will be my next upgrade. The HSU VTF-3 looks appealing on a price:perfomance scale. I'd want to spend $400-600ish so it's a little over budget but doesn't that always happen :D

[MKtheater]

I started about 10 years ago with a KLH sub. Heck it was an all in one klh system. Still had a Laser disc player though. I don't need an upgrade but I am curious on how the Jl audio, submersive, and DTS-20 sound.

[cschang]

I have no idea. I just put in wotw and play the pod emerging scene. I sit about 8 feet away from the sub. The 115 is a guess if I tuned it to 16 hz and turned up the volume to get the same output. Fortunately for me my ceiling is not that high so it makes my cubic foot much smaller so it is very hard to over power this sub, not that I have tried.
sitting that close, like you said, I would not worry much about output with any of the top subs in craig's list, I would think more about sound quality.

[MKtheater]

That is exactly why I am asking. It is about sound quality. I see how sub subs are more musical so how does that translate into movies. What are the differences between subs during the pod emergence scene. How about a mental picture. I know when I play the JP3 scene when the airplane turns across the screen(when trying to escape the spinosauras) it feels like wind is hitting you in the head. One friend actually grabbed his hat. I love pulling people in my theater that has no idea. My theater measures 21 x 15 x 7. If you go to videogon and look up sony crt 1272 with extras for sale you can see my sub in my theater. I can not copy and paste it here.

[bgillyjcu]

I couldnt see your sub. The pictures were kind of dark.

Well time to go watch BLACKHAWK DOWN SUPERBIT in DTS. This should give my PB-12 a gooooooood workout.

I only wish I had 2!

[buffexec]

MK,

i have two MK 5000THX subs, and am curious what you found to be the best placement for them? Also i do not think i would be able to sell these quickly so i plan on keeping them for a couple more years before i upgrade.


Walt

[MKtheater]

My sub is located at the back right corner of the theater, next to the back seats. I always keep it dark, just enough light for setting up dvd's. Those M&K's are great subs. I stacked them on top of each other for the most output but if you want to even out the bass then try different locations.

[swgiust]

I am not a member at AV123 but somebody reading this must be. I would like to
post, again, where is the SVS PB12-Ultra/2? At least on this forum this has been
one of the "reference" subs for quite awhile. It doesn't seem fair to leave it out.
I do agree that the test was done quite well and the results are acurate (within reason). Almost any of the subs tested would do a great job for most every person.

[jedi.night]

Craig,

How about the SVS Cylinder Subs????

Specifically the PC-ULTRA.


Thanks.

[im the man]

mKtheater,

If this helps your decision I change out often, Lately I have had the Klipsch Ultras Klipsch RT12d, Def Tech Trinity, DD 18 and the DTS20. I have sold all the others and just offered the DD18 to a friend. The DTS 20 is the best sub I have owned. In my opinion at my house the DTS 20 blows all the others away. Not that the subs I have mentioned are not great but the DTS 20 is in a whole different category of its own. Just my 2 cents.

rmlowz
Impressive list of subs you have owned there. I know you have your DTS-20 as number 1 what was your 2,3,4, etc. and why? I was looking at the DTS-20, but it just was not practical for my house. :rolleyes: Ok let me quit beating around the bush my wife would kill me if I bought and 88 inch sub :mad:, Oh well. I went with two JL F113's. I wonder how my two JL's would stack up versus your DTS 20. I would hope :eek: they would be somewhat close to the DTS-20, considering they are 6,600 MSRP versus the DTS-20 2,900.

I have owned: JL F113, Klipsch RSW-15, Klipsch RW-12, Klipsch Rw-10, SVS PB 12/plus 2 (12.3), and have had extensive experience with the Defentive Reference Supercube, and Paradigm Servo 15. Oh and almost forgot the Bose Bass Module. ;) ........., does that count, anyhow that's my experience.

[TheEAR]

rmlowz,

That is great news,you find the DTS20 in a whole new league of super subs! Hmm interesting,then it will be a green light for me. :)

[craigsub]

I am not a member at AV123 but somebody reading this must be. I would like to
post, again, where is the SVS PB12-Ultra/2? At least on this forum this has been
one of the "reference" subs for quite awhile. It doesn't seem fair to leave it out.
I do agree that the test was done quite well and the results are acurate (within reason). Almost any of the subs tested would do a great job for most every person.

When I purchased 2 PB12-Ultras last year, the decision came to which was the better overall performer: The Ulltra/2 or the Ultra. After talking with Ed Mullen, I settled on the single driver Ultra. At the time, I was able to get two Ultras for $200 than a single Ultra/2.

Therefore, any placement on the Ultra/2 would be based on extrapolation from the Ultra's score.

I don't know how fair it would be to start posting numbers on a unit that I never tested ...

[I Superman I]

I'd definatly like to see that Ultra/2 aswell. Also how the DTS-20 compares and just how much better it actually is then what's listed.

And just from curiosity, the Definitve Tech Trinity and the Velo 18-12 would also like to be seen. I'm a fan of Def Tech and would be interested to see how their sub compares.

Great list and glad to see it here as it will help guide many people in the right direction with their purchases, can't wait to see how/if it changes when more subs are put into the mix.

[craigsub]

Craig, did you have to go up to '103' because you had previously thought that DD-18 was the best and hence the '100' perfect score?

You are pretty close ... At the end of the Velodyne DD-18 vs. ACI Maestro test, the winner was assigned a score of 100, with the other having been about 15% behind it, or 97 points. Based on the scale, it is possible, for example, that a subwoofer "scores" 115 points. That subwoofer would be roughly twice the perormer that the Velo DD-18 is.

I have been running some ideas about the effect that duals of any subwoofer adds to its performance, and the estimate is typically going to be one can add from 2-4 points for duals. Duals of any sub will NOT add 15 points to a subwoofer's performance (15 points is juat a bit over doubling the performance).

To answer the question, for example, about the Ultra Cylinder, it would score the same as the box Ultra.

And, as an estimate on the Ultra/2 ... I would call it 3 points higher than the single driver ultra.

Also ... keep this in mind on the Ultra: This is a driver which is in its 5th year of production (if memory serves, the current driver was available in May, 2002, in the SS cylinder subs). SVS is not just sitting still, and looking to "do nothing but raise prices" in 2007.

The next Ultra series is in the works, and will be a welcome addition to the testing being done here. The current Ultra driver is still competitive, even after this long. That speaks volumes.

[dcoil]

Have you ranked the Sunfire Signature?

[MUCHO]

Adding in my two bits -

I went from a SVS 20-39 PC+ (with 12.3 driver) to a HO w Turbo based largely on what Craig had to say about the new HO driver/amp. My impression is that they aren't that much different for HT but I could easily notice a difference in music articulation. I presume this difference should be noticeable for HT as well but I just didn't spend much time comparing the two. Craig is truly a sick man. (In a good way)

Of course - due to the turbo - there is a large difference in scenes like Irene or Neo talking to the machine in Revolutions since I was only running the SVS in its native 20 hz tune.

[craigsub]

Have you ranked the Sunfire Signature?

No ... It has been about 6 years since any of the Sunfire Subs have been in our home.

[swgiust]

[QUOTE=craigsub]

And, as an estimate on the Ultra/2 ... I would call it 3 points higher than the single driver ultra.

QUOTE]

I would agree that in no way the Ultra 2 is twice the sub as the Ultra, but I would
expect it to be better that 15% better?

[dcoil]

No ... It has been about 6 years since any of the Sunfire Subs have been in our home.

Any particular reason? Where do you think it might rank?? Thanks :)

[craigsub]

And, as an estimate on the Ultra/2 ... I would call it 3 points higher than the single driver ultra.



I would agree that in no way the Ultra 2 is twice the sub as the Ultra, but I would
expect it to be better that 15% better?

I am basing this on tests with dozens of subs, including duals from different companies.

To help clarify this, let's look at the GP session from Ed Mullen on the PB12-Ultra/2 in its 20 Hz tuning ...

20 Hz Tune 10% THD Ground Plane 2M:
16 Hz: 89.5 dB
18 Hz: 100.7 dB (8.4% THD amp limited)
20 Hz: 102.8 dB (9.4% THD amp limited)
22 Hz: 104.9 dB (7.7% THD amp limited)
25 Hz: 106 dB (6.2% THD amp limited)
30 Hz: 109.5 dB (7.9% THD amp limited)
40 Hz: 113.1 dB
50 Hz: 112.2 dB

Now let's look at the PB12-Plus from Ed, using the 16 Hz tune (both subs are using their 2 port open setting) ...

16 Hz: 95.0 @ 10.0
18 Hz: 99.4 @ 6.8*
20 Hz: 100.9 @ 9.2*
22 Hz: 99.9 @ 10.4
25 Hz; 101.9 @ 10.3
32 Hz: 106.7 @ 9.9
40 Hz: 107.3 @ 4.7*
50 Hz: 106.7 @ 4.6*

When you consider the Ultra driver delivers appx. 1.5-2 dB higher levels of SPL than the Plus ... and crunch these numbers, I think the 15% figure makes sense from an objective sense.

The Ultra/2 averages 104.8 dB from 16 to 50 Hz while the Plus averages 102.2 dB.

Hopefully this helps everyone understand this issue more.

[cschang]

Adding in my two bits -

I went from a SVS 20-39 PC+ (with 12.3 driver) to a HO w Turbo based largely on what Craig had to say about the new HO driver/amp. My impression is that they aren't that much different for HT but I could easily notice a difference in music articulation. I presume this difference should be noticeable for HT as well but I just didn't spend much time comparing the two. Craig is truly a sick man. (In a good way)

Of course - due to the turbo - there is a large difference in scenes like Irene or Neo talking to the machine in Revolutions since I was only running the SVS in its native 20 hz tune.
To me....it is much easier to judge sound quality with music. For HT, it is less important IMO.

[bgillyjcu]

Of course - due to the turbo - there is a large difference in scenes like Irene or Neo talking to the machine in Revolutions since I was only running the SVS in its native 20 hz tune




That scene from Irene has like SUB 10HZ Bass......that is crazy

[craigsub]

Any particular reason? Where do you think it might rank?? Thanks :)

Yes, there is a particular reason - there is no dealer near here any longer. I really have no idea how well it would do in testing against today's subs - especially when you consider the sub I had is no longer even made.

[swgiust]

I am basing this on tests with dozens of subs, including duals from different companies.

To help clarify this, let's look at the GP session from Ed Mullen on the PB12-Ultra/2 in its 20 Hz tuning ...

20 Hz Tune 10% THD Ground Plane 2M:
16 Hz: 89.5 dB
18 Hz: 100.7 dB (8.4% THD amp limited)
20 Hz: 102.8 dB (9.4% THD amp limited)
22 Hz: 104.9 dB (7.7% THD amp limited)
25 Hz: 106 dB (6.2% THD amp limited)
30 Hz: 109.5 dB (7.9% THD amp limited)
40 Hz: 113.1 dB
50 Hz: 112.2 dB

Now let's look at the PB12-Plus from Ed, using the 16 Hz tune (both subs are using their 2 port open setting) ...

16 Hz: 95.0 @ 10.0
18 Hz: 99.4 @ 6.8*
20 Hz: 100.9 @ 9.2*
22 Hz: 99.9 @ 10.4
25 Hz; 101.9 @ 10.3
32 Hz: 106.7 @ 9.9
40 Hz: 107.3 @ 4.7*
50 Hz: 106.7 @ 4.6*

When you consider the Ultra driver delivers appx. 1.5-2 dB higher levels of SPL than the Plus ... and crunch these numbers, I think the 15% figure makes sense from an objective sense.

The Ultra/2 averages 104.8 dB from 16 to 50 Hz while the Plus averages 102.2 dB.

Hopefully this helps everyone understand this issue more.

Numbers don't lie. I was not suprised by the Ultra/2 numbers, I am supprised by
the Plus though. Damn good sub IMO. Your reputation is still intact :D

[RMK!]

To me....it is much easier to judge sound quality with music. For HT, it is less important IMO.


I agree, but film scores are very musical these days and a subs deficiency in this regard will be noticed.

[craigsub]

Your reputation is still intact :D

Is that a GOOD thing ? :D

[avsrebel]

Let me see if I'm understanding correctly from your chart:
5. Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
5a. Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
6. SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points

If PB12-Ultra/2 is approx. 93 then are you saying the HSU VTP-3 HO + Turbo is better and roughly half the price?

[craigsub]

Let me see if I'm understanding correctly from your chart:
5. Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
5a. Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
6. SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points

If PB12-Ultra/2 is approx. 93 then are you saying the HSU VTP-3 HO + Turbo is better and roughly half the price?

When you are dealing with a 5% difference, considering all the criteria involved, I would call the 2 "comparable".

[avsrebel]

It sounds like it would be a no-brainer to go with the cheaper model if they are "comparable". There has to be some catch. I need to hop over to your review and check out the analytics used.

[G-star]

When you are dealing with a 5% difference, considering all the criteria involved, I would call the 2 "comparable".

people tend to get too hung up on these numbers. as has been alluded to, i doubt 99% of people would be able to pick a clear winner. this is just great fun and stuff to stoke the fire of debate among the sub geeks. i'm sure most of us would be tickled pink with either of these subs...i'd go for the one that makes most sense in my room with the available funds.

great work by the way, craig. :D

[craigsub]

It sounds like it would be a no-brainer to go with the cheaper model if they are "comparable". There has to be some catch. I need to hop over to your review and check out the analytics used.

Please do ... and let me know if you have any questions or comments ... :)

[craigsub]

people tend to get too hung up on these numbers. as has been alluded to, i doubt 99% of people would be able to pick a clear winner. this is just great fun and stuff to stoke the fire of debate among the sub geeks. i'm sure most of us would be tickled pink with either of these subs...i'd go for the one that makes most sense in my room with the available funds.

great work by the way, craig. :D

Well said, and thank you.

Gents (I am assuming women are too smart to be reading this stuff), I am off to Cleveland for a big swim invitational with my wife and son. He does the swimming. She keeps his diabetes in check. I do what I am told. :cool:

See you guys Sunday !

[John Schneider]

You are pretty close ... At the end of the Velodyne DD-18 vs. ACI Maestro test, the winner was assigned a score of 100, with the other having been about 15% behind it, or 97 points. Based on the scale, it is possible, for example, that a subwoofer "scores" 115 points. That subwoofer would be roughly twice the perormer that the Velo DD-18 is.

I have been running some ideas about the effect that duals of any subwoofer adds to its performance, and the estimate is typically going to be one can add from 2-4 points for duals. Duals of any sub will NOT add 15 points to a subwoofer's performance (15 points is juat a bit over doubling the performance).

To answer the question, for example, about the Ultra Cylinder, it would score the same as the box Ultra.

And, as an estimate on the Ultra/2 ... I would call it 3 points higher than the single driver ultra.

Also ... keep this in mind on the Ultra: This is a driver which is in its 5th year of production (if memory serves, the current driver was available in May, 2002, in the SS cylinder subs). SVS is not just sitting still, and looking to "do nothing but raise prices" in 2007.

The next Ultra series is in the works, and will be a welcome addition to the testing being done here. The current Ultra driver is still competitive, even after this long. That speaks volumes.
All right, you lost me here. :confused:

I'll admit math ain't my strong point, but I cudda sworn that 15% of 100 is 15.
100-15=85.

How'd you come up with 97?

[huff]

All right, you lost me here. :confused:

I'll admit math ain't my strong point, but I cudda sworn that 15% of 100 is 15.
100-15=85.

How'd you come up with 97?

Re-read post #1 in this thread where Craig says "How the scaling works is this: each 3 points represents a 15% higher level of overall performance"

[Mark Seaton]

It sounds like it would be a no-brainer to go with the cheaper model if they are "comparable". There has to be some catch. I need to hop over to your review and check out the analytics used.

The "catch" is a simple statement. "Your mileage may vary..."

With any largely subjective review, there are a variety of intertwined factors at work to determine both what we hear and our personal preferences, or more accurately, the pecking order of our priorities or annoyances.

Let's not forget that 10% THD limits or even just maximum output at various frequencies does not determine everything about a subwoofer. As the output capabilities of the subwoofers being compared start to approach being "enough" for the use (more can always be beneficial) or have comparable playback limitations, other characteristics of the subwoofer start to dictate the subjective experience. The "best" is never going to be easy to identify, but we will note differences between the many available solutions.

[pbc]

It sounds like it would be a no-brainer to go with the cheaper model if they are "comparable". There has to be some catch. I need to hop over to your review and check out the analytics used.

One other thing to consider when looking at the price equation, the build quality of the SVS subs do seem much better than the HSU subs, for instance. Had the chance for the first time to see the VTF-3 against the SB12, PB12ISD and PB10 subs today in the same room (local dealer that carries both in Canada) and the SVS subs clearly felt and looked superior. The VTF-3 had kind of a "glued together" look to it (i.e., the top piece clearly looked like it was glued to the box) versus the rounded "looks like one piece" edges of the SVS. I imagine the newer HO has the same build quality as the VTF?

They also pulled out a PB12-Plus/2 and my what a monster that is compared to even the PB12NSD and it absolutely dwarfed the VTF-3!! At least it took that one out of the equation for me, no way my wife would allow that beast in the house!!

[DreamCatcher]

I feel the same way, SVS is a step up in build quality compared to the HSU subs.
On the other hand, HSU subs are a step up in sound quality compared to SVS subs. Not a big step mind you, but with the VTF-3 HO HSU has raised the bar on bass quality/quanity versus price, imho at least. I've owned a lot of SVS subs recently, PB12 Ultra/2, PB12-NSD, Dual 20-39 PC- Plus, etc... and while all very good subs, the 3HO Turbo just out performs them, at least in my system and room.

dc
One other thing to consider when looking at the price equation, the build quality of the SVS subs do seem much better than the HSU subs, for instance. Had the chance for the first time to see the VTF-3 against the SB12, PB12ISD and PB10 subs today in the same room (local dealer that carries both in Canada) and the SVS subs clearly felt and looked superior. The VTF-3 had kind of a "glued together" look to it (i.e., the top piece clearly looked like it was glued to the box) versus the rounded "looks like one piece" edges of the SVS. I imagine the newer HO has the same build quality as the VTF?

They also pulled out a PB12-Plus/2 and my what a monster that is compared to even the PB12NSD and it absolutely dwarfed the VTF-3!! At least it took that one out of the equation for me, no way my wife would allow that beast in the house!!

[pbc]

Surprising actually. I can't imagine that a slightly nicer enclosure would have run them more than another $50 to $100? I'm still seriously considering the HO over the PB12-Plus based on the reviews of the HO here, but the difference in build quality was definately evident.

[stevenassco]

have you tested/compared subs such as the the ASW-825/855, Seismic/Servo series, ML Depth/Descent, Theil SS3/SS4

there are some excellent non ID subs out there that will compete with that lineup, although they are all great subs ;)

[swgiust]

If you were considering adding another sub, and you had a good sub (one on the list) would you add it or buy the #1 sub on the list? Is it better to have two of the same sub? I am looking at another Ultra/2. I think SVS will give me a good deal,
past customer, new ultra's coming out soon. What would you do?

[John Schneider]

Re-read post #1 in this thread where Craig says "How the scaling works is this: each 3 points represents a 15% higher level of overall performance"
DOH! :D :D
Of course, I'll have to rethink a few other things. (6 points = 30%, 12 points = 60 %).
Kind of puts new perspective on the ratings.

[John Schneider]

There are plans to have Craig play with a SubMersive and then a BMF over the next few months. I expect both to compare rather well in the mix. ;)
I don't want to cause a problem for you, if this does, I'll delete.

What do YOU think sets the 2 apart? Is one louder than the other? Lower? More musical?

Would love to hear your thoughts on direct comparisons.

[Mark Seaton]

I don't want to cause a problem for you, if this does, I'll delete.

What do YOU think sets the 2 apart? Is one louder than the other? Lower? More musical?

Would love to hear your thoughts on direct comparisons.

No problem at all John. I wouldn't have agreed to design the BMF after I already had mine in the works unless it would offer something different from what my SubMersive offers. I've posted comments on the comparison between the two at AV123's forum a few times, but here are a few points of comparison. If you're looking for a clear "this is better than that" from me, keep looking. :p :D

For anyone who has followed some of my past adventures in subwoofing, the best analogy I can give is that the SubMersive fully intended to deliver on some of the strengths I observed when installing the monsterous b-Deap subwoofers into rooms like that of "thebland's" and "Pete & Pam," but do so in a managable package that was sized and priced to make it realistic to deploy multiples. The BMF is much more in the footsteps of the ContraBass's strengths with both designs using different means toward similar end goals. The BMF of course does not have the high power linearity afforded by the servo-motor in the ContraBass, but it gains low level linearity, and the acoustic low passing and excursion reduction of the front 18" PR that serves to give it a similarly unique composure under fire.

In maybe 80% of home theaters, the SubMersive will have power to much lower frequencies, where I have observed useful in-room response to 8-12Hz. The SubMersive also has quite startling power above 35-40Hz and smooth response out to almost 200Hz (makes for easier transitioning). Aside from the in-room extension, the SubMersive has extremely good linearity right to its limits at all operating frequencies which will be visible in compression testing with increasing sweep levels.

The BMF is 6" longer and 6" wider than the SubMersive. It has significantly more power in the 16-28Hz range which will be very welcome in open floor plan rooms and those who can simply never get enough deep bass output. The BMF will be a lower in audible distortion within it's operation range, while taking a very close second to the SubMersive in dynamic linearity. The higher frequency, front 18" PR affords the BMF a very un-obtrusive sound character that is deceptive given its physical size. The composure under fire I describe translates to no foul noises from the subwoofer until you are significantly clipping the amplifier, which is at some pretty enthusiastic playback levels.

The BMF is a well composed powerhouse. On the flip side, no quantity of BMF's will deliver the sub 14-16Hz extension in-room that SubMersives allow, especially with multiples. One slight complicating factor is that the Velodyne SMS-1 can significantly truncate the low end extension of a SubMersive in an enclosed room.

The whole purpose was to offer some alternate options with unique strengths and benefits that deliver the dynamic capability I and many of you have come to expect in a top home theater.

[John Schneider]

Thanks for the response. I'll check AV123's forums.

Would you say that one is faster/quicker/more musical? I do listen to alot of music.

[MKtheater]

Hi Mark,
I am looking to upgrade my subwoofer, I want faster bass, and Have been considering the following: Jl audio 113, hsu ho turbo. How well will the BMF, or for that matter the other new 15 inch subs from av123 would compare in speed and accuracy. My SVS has alot of power so I expect that. The jl audio and your submersive are comparable in prices as well where the others are less. How about 2 of the 15 from av123 vs the hsu ho turbo, they run about the same price? Thanks

[Richard Mayer]

I want faster bass...
Uh oh... :eek: :o

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/images/300/headache_man.jpg

[mazersteven]

You all have cursed me. Within the past 2 months I have bought two PB12 Plus/2 s. They make me grin from ear to ear.

However, I did not need to see this thread. Please go away and leave me alone.

LMAO I was thinking the same thing. :eek: :D

Think this is bad. Try headphones www.headfi.com

[mazersteven]

[QUOTE=new27]This was taken fron AV123 boards, it is GOLD imo and deserving of it's own thread. Bravo Craig!

1. JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points.
2. Velodyne DD-18: 100 points.
3. ACI Maestro: 97 points.
4. JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points.
5. Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
5a. Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
6. SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points.
6T. Axiom EP-500: 90 points
7. SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points.
8. Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
9. Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
10. Rocket Tyke: 60 points

QUOTE]

So based on the selling prices of these subs, and these numbers (keeping in mind the laws of Diminishing Returns).

How would these subs rate dollar vs. performance from 1-10?

[MKtheater]

why uh oh? I guess I used the wrong term.

[swgiust]

Originally Posted by Schwingding
You all have cursed me. Within the past 2 months I have bought two PB12 Plus/2 s. They make me grin from ear to ear.

However, I did not need to see this thread. Please go away and leave me alone.


Do not regret your purchases. Look at the list. Your sub is in the top 7. When have
you ever owned anything that could be classified in the top 10? even 100?
Car? nope, House? nope, TV? nope, Computer? nope. We are playing in a world of inches, not miles. A sub that is capable and sounds good in your room is the best sub in the world.

We all chase the dream, or we wouldn't be reading this thread!! We all have equipment that most of my friends have never even heard of. So, you know what?
WE are the top 10! Two pb+2's are freakin' awesome!! ENJOY!

[im the man]

Originally Posted by Schwingding
You all have cursed me. Within the past 2 months I have bought two PB12 Plus/2 s. They make me grin from ear to ear.

However, I did not need to see this thread. Please go away and leave me alone.


Do not regret your purchases. Look at the list. Your sub is in the top 7. When have
you ever owned anything that could be classified in the top 10? even 100?
Car? nope, House? nope, TV? nope, Computer? nope. We are playing in a world of inches, not miles. A sub that is capable and sounds good in your room is the best sub in the world.

We all chase the dream, or we wouldn't be reading this thread!! We all have equipment that most of my friends have never even heard of. So, you know what?
WE are the top 10! Two pb+2's are freakin' awesome!! ENJOY!

Yes I agree Swgiust and well put, the PB plus/2 is an awsome sub......, and you have two of them very nice. Your not going to find to many people who have even close to what you have. And of course trying to keep up with preverbal ''Best" his a never ending revolving door. Congratulations on your two SVS'. :D

[Richard Mayer]

Do not regret your purchases. Look at the list. Your sub is in the top 7. When have
you ever owned anything that could be classified in the top 10? even 100?

When there's only 12 subs on the list, it's pretty easy to be in the top 10... :D

[bfdtv]

When there's only 12 subs on the list, it's pretty easy to be in the top 10...Well, Craig doesn't waste his time with just any sub -- he only looks at those he thinks will offer outstanding performance or value.

[swgiust]

When there's only 12 subs on the list, it's pretty easy to be in the top 10... :D

GEE HOW COME THERE ARE NO BOSE SUBS ON THIS LIST?? :D :D

[Legairre]

GEE HOW COME THERE ARE NO BOSE SUBS ON THIS LIST?? :D :D

Because they move more air, sound better, and dig deeper than any sub on earth. It wouldn't be fair to the other 12 subs if Bose was on the list. :D

[DrewB]

You guys also have to remember that Craig has a very demanding room for most subwoofers. You would probably have a hard time choosing most of the <$1500 subs in a regular sized room.

[Reginald Trent]

Originally Posted by Schwingding
You all have cursed me. Within the past 2 months I have bought two PB12 Plus/2 s. They make me grin from ear to ear.

However, I did not need to see this thread. Please go away and leave me alone.


Do not regret your purchases. Look at the list. Your sub is in the top 7. When have
you ever owned anything that could be classified in the top 10? even 100?
Car? nope, House? nope, TV? nope, Computer? nope. We are playing in a world of inches, not miles. A sub that is capable and sounds good in your room is the best sub in the world.

We all chase the dream, or we wouldn't be reading this thread!! We all have equipment that most of my friends have never even heard of. So, you know what?
WE are the top 10! Two pb+2's are freakin' awesome!! ENJOY!

My subs SVS 16-46PCI-NSD and PB12-NSD are not even on the list. Even so I'm perfectly happy with them. I don't sweat it because someone else always has a faster car, prettier wife/girlfriend, bigger house, more money etc,etc. Happiness is not always having more, sometimes enough really is enough.

[Darin]

someone else always has a .. prettier wife/girlfriend
Of course, you don't tell her that. :D

[swgiust]

As long as your wife isn't somebody else's girlfriend... :D

I am actually very seriously considering another pb12-ultra/2.
Is it old technology? yes. But is it still a great sub? yes. And
will two of them blow the doors off of almost anything on the
planet? YES!

[bgillyjcu]

My subs SVS 16-46PCI-NSD and PB12-NSD are not even on the list. Even so I'm perfectly happy with them. I don't sweat it because someone else always has a faster car, prettier wife/girlfriend, bigger house, more money etc,etc. Happiness is not always having more, sometimes enough really is enough.


How do you like those 2 subs paired up together.

I have a PB-12NSD right now and I'm looking to add another SVS sub in the future.

As of now I'm going to get a 2nd PB-12NSD and stack them, Ed gave me the advice stating all of the positive aspects from stacking.

But I'm interested to hear your thoughts considering the 16-46 is a MONSTER in the deep end of Bass!

[Reginald Trent]

How do you like those 2 subs paired up together.

I have a PB-12NSD right now and I'm looking to add another SVS sub in the future.

As of now I'm going to get a 2nd PB-12NSD and stack them, Ed gave me the advice stating all of the positive aspects from stacking.

But I'm interested to hear your thoughts considering the 16-46 is a MONSTER in the deep end of Bass!

I bought the 16-46PCI first and upgraded the speaker to the NSD, the PB-12ISD with upgraded NSD speaker does not play with the authority as the 16-46 BTW they are used separately on two different setups. The 16-46 is in my main HT and the PB-12 is used with my bedroom setup. I don't regret buying either sub. Even though technically my PB12 is not a NSD even with the NSD speaker added. This being due to the addtional tuning done to the cabinet after they upgraded to the NSD from the SVS factory.

[bgillyjcu]

I wish you had them paired up to see how they sound! but your ISD design is bottom firing and my new NSD has the front port and front firing woofer so i dont know how it would do in a comparision

[Ron Temple]

Someone said it earlier...(paraphrased) centimeters not inches. Enjoy your subs. The law of diminishing returns combined with subjective judgement costs alot of money.

[kgveteran]

I love a good lock out :D

Chair, glass of wine...just waiting... :D

[bgillyjcu]

you love a good lock out? what does that mean?

[TheEAR]

Craig's top ten has eight serious subs,the last two and the last one is not even a real subwoofer.

A Paradigm Seismic 12 would move the two bottom subs out of the field with a knockout ,and itself would be outclassed by the Servo 15 V2. And you have a few more very competent subs(from SVS among others).

Any serious sub fanatic will not even touch the two bottom "subs" with a sten foot stick.

Soon these rankings should change,the BMF and Submersive and new Ultra should push a few out.And when the Gotham arrives,if Craig tests this beast will take first place.

Where are the Klipsch THX subs??

And it would be fun to have a BUDGET sub listing,a budget top tem.With subs below $600 reviewed and tested. You have a few very interesting prospects from HSU,SVS and company.

[Kevin12586]

Maybe you guys could help me out, I am currently thinking about getting dual PB12/+2 (until I read this thread of course) but I am now considering dual VTF-3 HO w/turbo. The thing is I went to HSU's website and I couldn't find any info about the HO w/turbo so can anyone tell me what is its price, amp power, frequency response, etc? Or if you can point me to a link with that info it would be greatly appreciated.

Also, based on what I read here the HO w/turbo seems to be a better sub than the PB12/+2, again taking money and power and frequency response into the equation, which duals would be better in a 6000 cubic foot basement space?

Thanks

[craigsub]

Craig's top ten has eight serious subs,the last two and the last one is not even a real subwoofer.

A Paradigm Seismic 12 would move the two bottom subs out of the field with a knockout ,and itself would be outclassed by the Servo 15 V2. And you have a few more very competent subs(from SVS among others).

Any serious sub fanatic will not even touch the two bottom "subs" with a sten foot stick.

Soon these rankings should change,the BMF and Submersive and new Ultra should push a few out.And when the Gotham arrives,if Craig tests this beast will take first place.

Where are the Klipsch THX subs??

And it would be fun to have a BUDGET sub listing,a budget top tem.With subs below $600 reviewed and tested. You have a few very interesting prospects from HSU,SVS and company.

Guys ... This is not a "top ten" list. It is the start of catologing "x" amount of subwoofers based on the criteria already detailed.

Please keep in mind there is a 700+% difference between the Tyke and the Fathom 113. That is pretty signifigant.

In the actual review thread, I said the Tyke was not a true subwoofer. It will add a decent bottom end to some small bookshelf speakers.

And as much as I would love to give meaningful info on every possible subwoofer, that is just not possible. Over time, the list of cataloged subs will grow.

On my end, It is after 1 AM.... my son did FAR better than expected at the invitational, and it was fun reading the responses so far.

Tomorrow, I will update what happened as we were leaving last night, with the PB12-Plus/2 playing Pirates of the Caribbean II in a HUGE room. :)

[MKtheater]

I owned those Klipsch THX ultra 2 Subs. My PB12/plus/2 sound just like them, same power as well. I compared them side by side. Very nice build quality. That Gotham looks very nice, I know 2 fathom f113 would be about the same in performance but they won't look as good. The new single SVS ultra is supposed outperform their ultra/2. I wonder what the new ultra/2 can do. These are very exciting times.

[im the man]

Craig's top ten has eight serious subs,the last two and the last one is not even a real subwoofer.

A Paradigm Seismic 12 would move the two bottom subs out of the field with a knockout ,and itself would be outclassed by the Servo 15 V2. And you have a few more very competent subs(from SVS among others).

Any serious sub fanatic will not even touch the two bottom "subs" with a sten foot stick.

Soon these rankings should change,the BMF and Submersive and new Ultra should push a few out.And when the Gotham arrives,if Craig tests this beast will take first place.

Where are the Klipsch THX subs??

And it would be fun to have a BUDGET sub listing,a budget top tem.With subs below $600 reviewed and tested. You have a few very interesting prospects from HSU,SVS and company.

The Gotham will be almost identical to two F113's stacked. But your right the Submersive, BMF-1, and New Ultra, it will be interesting if the F113 can hold it's current reign at the top.

[bfdtv]

Maybe you guys could help me out, I am cuurently thinking about getting dual PB12/+2 (until I read this thread of course) but I am now considering dual VTF-3 HO w/turbo. The thing is I went to HSU's website and I couldn't find any info about the HO w/turbo so can anyone tell me what is its price, amp power, frequency response, etc? Or if you can point me to a link with that info it would be greatly appreciated.It's right on the main page (bottom left): http://www.hsuresearch.com/

The VTF-3 Mk3, VTF-2 Mk3, and VTF-1 pages haven't been posted yet. For those, you've got to see the thread on their forums (http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2381).

[Kevin12586]

:( I don't have 33" under my screen (where the sub would be located) to fit the VTF-3 HO w/turbo. I guess I will be heading back to the PB12/+2, not that that is abad thing :)

Thanks for the info.

[craigsub]

A lot of PB12-Plus/2 ownershave posted thoughts along the lines of: "This sub rocks my room ... "

You are right, it does, especially in its 25 Hz mode. I have the Plus/2 in our family room, which is 27x24 with vaulted ceilings going to 16 feet. It also has 2 large openings into a very large kitchen, and french doors into our living room.

ON POTC, the bass was deep, powerful and rich... And even having done all these blind tests, I will think the same things you are: "How much more does a person want than THIS?"

All the subwoofers from 85 and up are very good to outstanding performers. The 85 to 89 range performers have some obvious shortcomings to their higher ranked competitors in some areas.

For example, in the case of the UFW-12, it is extension. The Plus/2 ... music articulation.

For the subwoofers as mentioned so far, they also have different criteria in which they can work. The Plus/2 is a great choice (as are the other Plus subs) for larger rooms and primarily home theater use.

The VTF-3 HO, DD-18 and Fathom are also excellent large room subs, but can also be used for high end music reproduction, thus the higher scores.

The UFW-12 is better suited to music systems, with decent HT performance.

If anyone is interested, I have been working on a lettering system ... just to aid those looking for additional help.

It looks like this, and would be added to each sub ...as in recommended for:

M=music
HT=Home Theater
LR=Rooms over 3000^3 feet
VLR=Rooms over 4500^3 feet
SR=Rooms under 1800^3 feet (perfect for the X-sub)

[vitod]

Hey Craig, glad to see you back. ;) Congrats on your sons swimming run! :D

Have you considered or may later test any of the eD subs? They have a dual 15" for $1600 and an upcoming dual 18"! :eek: Considering their prices, they may have an edge or outperform in the "bang for the buck" category. Only testing will tell.

My, you have alot of posts and you started at a later date. :rolleyes:

[craigsub]

Hey Craig, glad to see you back. ;) Congrats on your sons swimming run! :D

Have you considered or may later test any of the eD subs? They have a dual 15" for $1600 and an upcoming dual 18"! :eek: Considering their prices, they may have an edge or outperform in the "bang for the buck" category. Only testing will tell.

My, you have alot of posts and you started at a later date. :rolleyes:

Thanks, Vito. My son was thrilled to even qualify to attend this meet. It was held at Cleveland State University, and 73 schools attended. Out of appx. 77 swimmers in the 100 Fly, he was seeded 70th as a 10th grader. He ended up placing 19th, making the consolation finals.

We were up at 5:30 Saturday morning, at the pool by 7, and the meet started at 8, and finished at 7:30 Saturday night.

It was a very good day.

Back to subwoofers. I would welcome an eD subwoofer here - I dropped them a line about 4 weeks ago, and never heard back. They may just be to swamped to worry about involvement here. They are still welcome to be involved, of course.

Back to the way this will eventually work ... this guide is not intended to pick an exact subwoofer for anyone. Hopefully, as this develops, it will serve as something to narrow choices.

Also hopefully, people will recognize how to use this within the same company's product lines. For example, Two SVS 25-31 PC+ will at LEAST score where the PB12-Plus/2 does. So ... if you like the idea of 2 cylinders which can be hidden in a couple of corners, they are a solid choice.

By the way, the PB12-Plus/2 in its 25 Hz mode would get this as a recommendation "PB12-Plus/2 .... HT/VLR."

One look at Ilkka's graph from his test in the 25 Hz mode will show why it is a powerful HT performer.

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/svs%20pb12-plus2%2025hz%20plus12.3%20max.png



The Hsu VTF-3 HO would get "VTF-3HO ... HT/M/VLR"

Here is the much less capable (than the VTF-3 HO) VTF-3 Mark II's graph. The VTF-3 HO outperforms the Mark II in every sense, including having a much longer throw driver, larger cabinet, more port area ... it is rather easy to see why the VTF-3 HO scores so well. One also NEEDS to hear this sub on music. It is close to the better sealed designs in articulation.

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/hsu%20vtf3%20mk2%2025hz%20max.png

KUDOS to Ilkka for providing these charts, they so allow a nice view of objective data. Too bad he lives 5000 miles from here. It would be fun to Blind Test a sub and send him out to measure them afterwards ... :)

[TheEAR]

Yes bad thing sub fanatics live far away from one another.Or we would have a major GTG and I could bring most my subs.

Keep up the good work Craig.

[craigsub]

Yes bad thing sub fanatics live far away from one another.Or we would have a major GTG and I could bring most my subs.

Keep up the good work Craig.

I am picturing you at the border, explaining what the 30 subwoofers are doing in the back of your vehicle ... :D

Border Agent: "Let me get this straight. You are taking all these boxes called subwoofers to a house in Pennsylvania, just to listen to them. A bunch of other fanatics are meeting you at this house. Is that about right?"

The Ear: "Yes, officer, that is correct"

Border Agent: "Someone alert Homeland Security. At the very least, this group of people needs to be investigated".

[cschang]

Thanks, Vito. My son was thrilled to even qualify to attend this meet. It was held at Cleveland State University, and 73 schools attended. Out of appx. 77 swimmers in the 100 Fly, he was seeded 70th as a 10th grader. He ended up placing 19th, making the consolation finals.

We were up at 5:30 Saturday morning, at the pool by 7, and the meet started at 8, and finished at 7:30 Saturday night.

It was a very good day.
Craig....congratulations to your son (you and your wife as well)......that is TRULY exciting stuff. The sense of accomplishment for the kids is a wonderful thing.

[craigsub]

Craig....congratulations to your son (you and your wife as well)......that is TRULY exciting stuff. The sense of accomplishment for the kids is a wonderful thing.

Thanks, Curtis. It is really gratifiying watching and helping my son get better. It has been 6 years since he was diagnosed as a type one Diabetic, and he was pushed into swimming to help keep is "hypo-glycemic" levels under control. At first, he hated it, because most kids started at age 4, and he was almost 10.

The way this now 15 year old handles himself is humbling, as he has to constantly be aware of what is going on with what is commonly called "blood sugar levels".

It certainly keeps things in perspective around our household.

On a lighter note, he does have a tendency to get cocky at times, and needs to be reeled in. I think the cockiness comes from his mom, but she actually has the audacity to say it is from me ... can you imagine that ? :D

[pbc]

I am picturing you at the border, explaining what the 30 subwoofers are doing in the back of your vehicle ...

Border Agent: "Let me get this straight. You are taking all these boxes called subwoofers to a house in Pennsylvania, just to listen to them. A bunch of other fanatics are meeting you at this house. Is that about right?"

The Ear: "Yes, officer, that is correct"

Border Agent: "Someone alert Homeland Security. At the very least, this group of people needs to be investigated".

If you could somehow hook them up all at once and play a few scenes from WOTW, you might just leave a 2km crater centered on what used to be Craig's house in Pennsylvania!

[pbc]

W.r.t. the HO (without Turbo), I would have to place it right next to the rear couch and the driver would be pointing pretty much into the couch and the "main" seat.

Assuming the sub is properly calibrated, would there be any issues with localization or other with the sub so close to the listening position?

STeve

[Reginald Trent]

If anyone is interested, I have been working on a lettering system ... just to aid those looking for additional help.

It looks like this, and would be added to each sub ...as in recommended for:

M=music
HT=Home Theater
LR=Rooms over 3000^3 feet
VLR=Rooms over 4500^3 feet
SR=Rooms under 1800^3 feet (perfect for the X-sub)

Suggestions

M=music this seems fine
HT=Home Theater as does this
LR=Rooms over 3000^3 feet But this makes more sense to me LRovr3TF
VLR=Rooms over 4500^3 feet But this makes more sense to me VLRovr45HF SR=Rooms under 1800^3 feet This makes more sense to me SRudr18HF


Coding means LR = rooms ovr = over 3TF = 3 Thousand Feet

SR = Rooms udr = Under 18HF = 18 Hundred Feet

You could also drop the room designation and just go with the numerical aspect for example Udr18HF and Ovr3TF The assumption being people know you are referring to space/room size with the three letters and number designation.

[cschang]

Thanks, Curtis. It is really gratifiying watching and helping my son get better. It has been 6 years since he was diagnosed as a type one Diabetic, and he was pushed into swimming to help keep is "hypo-glycemic" levels under control. At first, he hated it, because most kids started at age 4, and he was almost 10.

The way this now 15 year old handles himself is humbling, as he has to constantly be aware of what is going on with what is commonly called "blood sugar levels".

It certainly keeps things in perspective around our household.

On a lighter note, he does have a tendency to get cocky at times, and needs to be reeled in. I think the cockiness comes from his mom, but she actually has the audacity to say it is from me ... can you imagine that ? :D
:D
A little cockiness is not a bad thing, IMO, especially if someone is around to keep it in check.

Look at what Adam Morrison has done in college basketball, and now the NBA with diabetes. The tools available now (I am no expert) are allowing people with diabetes to function quite well.

[jhan1000]

:D
A little cockiness is not a bad thing, IMO, especially if someone is around to keep it in check.

Look at what Adam Morrison has done in college basketball, and now the NBA with diabetes. The tools available now (I am no expert) are allowing people with diabetes to function quite well.

I was just thinking the same thing. Technology for better glucose control (eg insulin pumps, improved medications) have improved the quality of life of many people with diabetes.

Craig, its a great thing to see your son doing so well!

[GGA]

This was taken fron AV123 boards, it is GOLD imo and deserving of it's own thread. Bravo Craig!

1. JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points.
2. Velodyne DD-18: 100 points.
3. ACI Maestro: 97 points.
4. JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points.
5. Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
5a. Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
6. SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points.
6T. Axiom EP-500: 90 points
7. SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points.
8. Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
9. Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
10. Rocket Tyke: 60 points


When evaluating these subs, I wanted to develop a system which would be easy to follow ... yet allow for a HUGE difference in the performance between, say, a TYKE and a Fathom 113.

In a direct linear fashion, the Tyke might look like it is 58.25% the sub the 113 is. Of course, it is not.

How the scaling works is this: each 3 points represents a 15% higher level of overall performance. It is also cumulative.

For example, The Fathom 113 is 43 points higher than the TYKE. Grab a calculator, and you will see you have 14.33 consecutive 15% improvemen