SVS PB12-NSD or HSU VTF-Mk3

[vetobe]

Thought I was ready to go with the SVS and then saw the new HSU come out. :confused: :confused: :confused: Any suggestions? Any help would be appreciated. Used for 90% HT.

[gotchaforce]

VTF3MK3 right??

would get the MK3 personally

the shipping is $90 though (its more than 100lb shipping weight)

with a turbo charger the vtf3-mk3 probably beats a PB12-NSD/2 handily, and i bet it even reaches into the Plus territory

[jhan1000]

I think the VFT3-MK3 are introductory prices, so it be may of better "value". In addition, the possibility of adding the turbo makes it even more intriguing.

[vetobe]

Sorry,
It was the VTF3-Mk3. Yeah, I saw that it was a steep 90$ dollars more for shipping. This would put the introductory price at $740 (not going to go with the turbo but may upgrade later. In comparison, the SVS is $599 + $42 (shipping from Ohio to Minnesota) which is about $100 less. I am willing to spend the money if it is worth it. I know that there are SVS and HSU fans. Pipe in if you would. Anyone with a VTF3-MK2? How would these two compare?
Thanks

[gotchaforce]

its up to you, both are great home theater subs, both are FRIGGIN HUGE too! I made a very quick mockup of the VTF3 and could barely believe it, then i was looking at the PB12NSD yesterday and noticed its even BIGGER (pics dont make it look that big... they need some comparison shots)

[jhan1000]

Sorry,
It was the VTF3-Mk3. Yeah, I saw that it was a steep 90$ dollars more for shipping. This would put the introductory price at $740 (not going to go with the turbo but may upgrade later. In comparison, the SVS is $599 + $42 (shipping from Ohio to Minnesota) which is about $100 less. I am willing to spend the money if it is worth it. I know that there are SVS and HSU fans. Pipe in if you would. Anyone with a VTF3-MK2? How would these two compare?
Thanks

Generally speaking, at these price ranges, you should see incremental improvements in performance as you spend more.

Get most subwoofer you can possibly afford.

[vetobe]

Dimensions on these things are large. Thanks for pointing out that the SVS is bigger. Have to keep this in mind for the WAF. She doesn't know that I am buying a x-mas present for myself this year (have to see how that goes over). Don't think I will be able to sneak one of these subs in and tell her that it has always been there...you just haven't noticed it before :) :)

Anyone live in the twin cities with either an SVS (preferably the PB12-NSD) or an HSU (preferably VTF3-Mk2)? Love to hear how they sound.

Any other suggestions for subs in this price range?

[jhan1000]

...Have to keep this in mind for the WAF. She doesn't know that I am buying a x-mas present for myself this year (have to see how that goes over). Don't think I will be able to sneak one of these subs in and tell her that it has always been there...you just haven't noticed it before :) :)


Diamonds works wonders for the WAF. :D

[Ron Temple]

Both SVS and Hsu make excellent products. I think the differences get played up by "us" enthusiasts. You will fall in love with either product, get the one that makes the most sense to you.

[rlb4]

Which of these two would go deeper and give more "oomph" below 20 Hz? It would be used about 99% for movies. Would the difference between the two be noticable to the average person? Room size is 14 x 17 x 7.5.

[bfdtv]

The PB12-NSD is a great subwoofer but it's more comparable to the VTF2-Mk3. The VTF3-Mk3 is more appropriately compared to the PB12-Plus or PB12-Plus/2.

[JEFFREY GTS]

Get my PB12 NSD today! Can't wait to play with it later.

[dan711]

Which of these two would go deeper and give more "oomph" below 20 Hz? It would be used about 99% for movies. Would the difference between the two be noticable to the average person? Room size is 14 x 17 x 7.5.


Be careful with reading into alot of the technical language on this forum. It can overwhelm you when trying to make a purchasing decision. Many people here have years of experience in audio/video.
With that said, I consider myself an average person when it comes to HT. I owned the pb12-isd and the vtf-3mk2. My room is slightly larger than yours ( 14 x 22 x 9).
In my listening area the pb12 went deeper with movie watching than the vtf-3. I like to listen to music alot. In my room the vtf-3 sounded better than the pb12. I would consider them about equal overall with my listening habits in my listening area.

Dan

[JEFFREY GTS]

I agree, there is a lot of technical terms and charts and numbers out there. While all that is good, it can get a bit overwhelming at times. All I care about is how good it sounds in my room. If I am happy with it then I don't care if it belts out 106 db's at 16hz.

[cschang]

Dr. Hsu indicated that a single VTF-3Mk3(without turbo) is stronger in the lowest bass than DUAL VTF-3Mk2's.

[bgillyjcu]

Be careful with reading into alot of the technical language on this forum. It can overwhelm you when trying to make a purchasing decision. Many people here have years of experience in audio/video.
With that said, I consider myself an average person when it comes to HT. I owned the pb12-isd and the vtf-3mk2. My room is slightly larger than yours ( 14 x 22 x 9).
In my listening area the pb12 went deeper with movie watching than the vtf-3. I like to listen to music alot. In my room the vtf-3 sounded better than the pb12. I would consider them about equal overall with my listening habits in my listening area.

Dan


Do you have those 2 subs running together.

how did the intgration go with 2 subs that are so different from each other?

Were you worried about not matching subs exactly, or even matching Brands?

[Kipp Jones]

Sorry,
It was the VTF3-Mk3. Yeah, I saw that it was a steep 90$ dollars more for shipping. This would put the introductory price at $740 (not going to go with the turbo but may upgrade later. In comparison, the SVS is $599 + $42 (shipping from Ohio to Minnesota) which is about $100 less. I am willing to spend the money if it is worth it. I know that there are SVS and HSU fans. Pipe in if you would. Anyone with a VTF3-MK2? How would these two compare?
Thanks

You are aware that SVS is about to unveil their new line???

[AdilM]

Don't be a tease, Kipp.
Tell us what you know.

[dan711]

Do you have those 2 subs running together.

how did the intgration go with 2 subs that are so different from each other?

Were you worried about not matching subs exactly, or even matching Brands?

No, I did not have them running together. I set them up one at a time in different positions in my listening area. They both sounded the best to me corner loaded about 15' from my listening position.

[Peter Marcks]

The PB12-NSD is a great subwoofer but it's more comparable to the VTF2-Mk3. The VTF3-Mk3 is more appropriately compared to the PB12-Plus or PB12-Plus/2.

The VTF-3 Mk3/t is actually as good as dual TN1220HO's in the deep bass! But with all the other modular options, things become less comparable :D

[vetobe]

So I was thinking very seriously about SVS PB12-NSD and then HSU comes along with VTF-3 MK3 and pushing that way and now Kipp says that SVS coming out with new line. This search may push me into the loony bin. :D :) :confused: Any news that you are willing to share Kipp?

Relative to ground pounding bass with clarity, I know that neither choice (SVS or HSU) will be wrong. I also know that at the price point that I am searching, I want the best. How does one decide? How did you decide when it came right down to it. Remember that if I want to audition both of these, I am out a whole lot of money for shipping and returning the one I do not like (in essence, not willing to do this though it would be the best way).

How did you decide?

[Peter Marcks]

Ask yourself this vetobe: are you interested in buying right away, or are you interesting in waiting? I could tell you that if you wait, we may have something coming out with DSP. But when will it be ready, how much will it cost, you will never know. The waiting game sometimes never ends. ;)

[Richard Mayer]

So I was thinking very seriously about SVS PB12-NSD and then HSU comes along with VTF-3 MK3 and pushing that way and now Kipp says that SVS coming out with new line. This search may push me into the loony bin. :D :) :confused: Any news that you are willing to share Kipp?


AFAIK SVS is coming out with a new Ultra line somewhere around mid 2007. So it shouldn't interest you if you are looking at the more affordable choices. Ultra is their best and the most expensive line, starting at ~$1500.

[bfdtv]

Ask yourself this vetobe: are you interested in buying right away, or are you interesting in waiting? I could tell you that if you wait, we may have something coming out with DSP.Just curious...is DSP something we can expect as standard on all your next-generation subs? That is, the generation beyond the Mk3 in 2008 or 2009?

Is a DSP upgrade or add-on for existing subs in the works?

[gotchaforce]

So I was thinking very seriously about SVS PB12-NSD and then HSU comes along with VTF-3 MK3 and pushing that way and now Kipp says that SVS coming out with new line. This search may push me into the loony bin. :D :) :confused: Any news that you are willing to share Kipp?

Relative to ground pounding bass with clarity, I know that neither choice (SVS or HSU) will be wrong. I also know that at the price point that I am searching, I want the best. How does one decide? How did you decide when it came right down to it. Remember that if I want to audition both of these, I am out a whole lot of money for shipping and returning the one I do not like (in essence, not willing to do this though it would be the best way).

How did you decide?

an SVS rep told me in an email that the only thing they plan on doing once the new year comes around is RAISING their prices

i would just go with the VTF3

[DrewB]

Vetobe, I see that you are also in Minneapolis. Once I've had a chance to properly calibrate my VTF3-HO (which should be in the next week or two), maybe you can come over for a listen. It's a sweet subwoofer. :cool:

[vetobe]

Drew, I would love to hear your VTF3-HO. The HO is out of my league cost wise so of course when I hear it, I will want one. Let me know when you have calibrated your sub.

[Kipp Jones]

an SVS rep told me in an email that the only thing they plan on doing once the new year comes around is RAISING their prices

What was their name???

[bfdtv]

What was their name???Perhaps he's referring to the SVS news mailing, which addressed the price issue. In general, SVS doesn't comment on future products. One exception was the recent PB14 rumor thread, where Mr. Stimpson alluded to their next-generation 2007 subs with 13" drivers:Thanks for the interest in this "rumor" guys. How about this: It's not a 12" and it's not a 14". We have a great current Ultra woofer that allowed us the luxury of time to consider a host of size variations that leveraged past research but held to a tough yet simple standard: Any new Ultra product has got to be a sigificant improvement.

2-3 years has seen technology move on, indeed.

We don't play the vapor-ware game though, and to a degree we realize we probably inadvertantly caused some of this discussion. No official announcement of any new woofer or product has or can be made till we're sure we can give a solid availability window. If it was just woofers involved we might have done it already. New woofers of course beg the question about amp power, form factor, price etc etc, some of which simply aren't sorted out yet.

After quite a few delays things are falling into place rapidly however.

I expect the air should clear some about the time we show up at CES.
With its next-generation 13" driver, SVS should surpass all of the new models from Hsu. Comments from SVS suggest the new driver will only be offered in the $1100+ Ultra models, at least initially. I am anxious to see how SVS will price these subs, and whether they will remain true to their price/performance and value-oriented history.

I was a bit surprised the VTF-3 Mk3 didn't feature a new 13" driver. It looks like everyone else is heading in that direction for their next-generation subs.

[rossandwendy]

Thought I was ready to go with the SVS and then saw the new HSU come out. :confused: :confused: :confused: Any suggestions? Any help would be appreciated. Used for 90% HT.

I bought the redesigned SVS PB12-NSD and was quite pleased with it for movies at first since it was my first good sub. But after much listening to DVDs and music over a period of several weeks, I feel it is lacking in dynamics on demanding DVD scenes (explosions have little impact as the sub seems to run out of steam in my open room) and the bass seems to lack a bit of texture and speed (noticeable on soundtracks and even more so with music CDs).

I recently read Craigsub's comments in his subwoofer shootout about the amazing sound and measurements he's getting from the HSU VTF-3 HO, and upon discovering the just-released VTF-3 MK3 with the same enclosure size and dual 4" ports as the HO but for only $649, I ordered it immediately. I have read numerous comments in various reviews and forums about how musical HSU subs are so I am hoping the new VTF-3 MK3 will give me a bit more of what I'm after in my room.

[Legairre]

I was a bit surprised the VTF-3 Mk3 didn't feature a new 13" driver. It looks like everyone else is heading in that direction for their next-generation subs.

Don't be to surprised the the Dr. designs his subs for the best SQ(not saying other companies don't) and wouldn't go with t a 13" unless he had a good reason to. Hsu also has a lot going on with other new products and a 13" driver may not have given the customer as much performance boost as the new bent pipe technology/porting, turbocharger and MBM-12 and the other things they have coming down the line. I'm just saying the Dr. wouldn't throw in a 13" just so he could market a 13"(not saying anyone else did either) he's been doing this a long time and if he didn't go 13" he has a good reason.

[intendedaccel]

Vetobe, I see that you are also in Minneapolis. Once I've had a chance to properly calibrate my VTF3-HO (which should be in the next week or two), maybe you can come over for a listen. It's a sweet subwoofer. :cool:

I'm also in the area and would appreciate a listen when you get it all setup. I'm in a pretty similar situation as the OP and would like to actually hear one of this internet direct brands in action.

[DrewB]

Ok, I'll keep you guys posted. I will be taking vacation as of this Thursday until the new year so stay tuned.

[Legairre]

Did you guys here about the review that's coming out where the new VTF-3 MK3 measured 112dB at 20 Hz (with turbo option, 109 dB without turbo) compared to 106 dB for the reviewer's SVS Ultra. With numbers like these there's no need for a 13" driver.

With these kind of numbers the new VTF-3 MK3 is one serious sub and to think the VTF-3 HO is even more impressive. Instead of designing a new driver and whole new sub the Dr. took the VTF-3 MK2 driver and 350 watt amp and put them in the VTF-3 HO enclosure and has created a true beast of a sub that even when the intro price is over will still be less than the HO($899). Since the VTF-3 MK3 will be about $749(just a guess) after intro pricing and you'll have a sub that will do 109dB @ 20Hz(without turbo).

All this and all the Dr. did was swap some parts around. :cool:

If someone buys the new MK3 before the into is over you'd be looking at:

VTF-3 Mk3 w/ turbo ($649 sub and $100 for turbo total $749): 112db @ 20Hz
VTF-3 Mk3 ($649): 109db @ 20Hz
PC-Ultra ($1199): 106db @ 20Hz
TN1220HO ($849): 106db @ 20Hz

[DrewB]

Legairre, where did you get this info from?

[rossandwendy]

Did you guys here about the review that's coming out where the new VTF-3 MK3 measured 112dB at 20 Hz (with turbo option, 109 dB without turbo) compared to 106 dB for the reviewer's SVS Ultra.

Yes Legairre, please do tell where to find that review, I would love to read it!

[Legairre]

This info comes from the Dr. himself. He personally responds to sub recommendations and
responded to a AVS member in post #14 of this thread.http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9145558&&#post9145558

[pbc]

Are these numbers are "in-room"?

[Legairre]

Are these numbers are "in-room"?
Well since you asked I contacted Hsu and the measurements were all done at >15 feet at the listening position "in room".

I know I said it before, but thats pretty impressive for just swapping parts around.

[craigsub]

This is likely Howard Ferstler writing for Sensible Sound. This is from his review of the PC-Ultra:

Well, those are pretty impressive, too. As noted, the
sub has a huge driver, and in combination with the
powerful amp the thing can generate some impressive
output levels. In my main
room, at my usual
measurement location, 17 feet
from the corner-located sub, I
got a maximum reading of 114
clean dB at 31.5 Hz and a
reading of 106 clean dB at 20 Hz.
The unit could go louder at 20
Hz, but there was an increase
in port/grill noise as a result.

[Legairre]

You're probably right Craig about the numbers coming from Howard Ferstler. I'm just impressed with the porting on the HO enclosure and turbo. Even with the older driver and ONLY 350 watts of power it can still deliver 112 dB @ 20Hz.

Craig did you post any "max output" numbers on the HO w/turbo @ 20Hz?

[Peter Marcks]

I was initially pleasantly surprised too, but given how I expected the VTF-3 Mk3/t to compare to dual TN1220HO, it basically matched my expectations :D

[tdamocles]

I bought the redesigned SVS PB12-NSD and was quite pleased with it for movies at first since it was my first good sub. But after much listening to DVDs and music over a period of several weeks, I feel it is lacking in dynamics on demanding DVD scenes (explosions have little impact as the sub seems to run out of steam in my open room) and the bass seems to lack a bit of texture and speed (noticeable on soundtracks and even more so with music CDs).

I recently read Craigsub's comments in his subwoofer shootout about the amazing sound and measurements he's getting from the HSU VTF-3 HO, and upon discovering the just-released VTF-3 MK3 with the same enclosure size and dual 4" ports as the HO but for only $649, I ordered it immediately. I have read numerous comments in various reviews and forums about how musical HSU subs are so I am hoping the new VTF-3 MK3 will give me a bit more of what I'm after in my room.

You didn't state how big your 'open room' was...You may be disappointed that the sound may not be much different.

[Peter Marcks]

I don't think there will be disappointment. ;) Also note that there is some flexibility in terms of choice of maximum output or maximum extension. Particularly if the room is relatively large and deep, then nearfield placement would be a worthwhile option to pursue if possible.

[xcjago]

Peter, any new reviews of the HO coming out soon?

[MUCHO]

Just wanted to add if you're going with the HSU definately spend the extra C note to get the turbo since you're 99% HT.

[rossandwendy]

You didn't state how big your 'open room' was...You may be disappointed that the sound may not be much different.

My HT is 3450 cu. ft. and has a 4' wide opening on the right to a 3350 cu. ft. room and opens on the left to a stairwell going to a 2nd floor. I do not need a whole lot more headroom to be happy with the dynamics at my typical listening levels - another 3-6db of output will do the trick and based on all the early numbers coming out on the HSU VTF-3 MK3 (and similarly spec'd HO) it will easily produce that improvement over the PB12-NSD. And at least as important to me is the claimed superior musicality of the HSU's according to many reviewers and forum members, something I will determine with my own ears beginning this Wednesday when FedEx brings the Turbo and 3MK3.

[SbWillie]

an SVS rep told me in an email that the only thing they plan on doing once the new year comes around is RAISING their prices

i would just go with the VTF3


Tom V told me that they are coming out with new subs next year....who did u talk to??? :confused: :confused:

[JEFFREY GTS]

My HT is 3450 cu. ft. and has a 4' wide opening on the right to a 3350 cu. ft. room and opens on the left to a stairwell going to a 2nd floor. I do not need a whole lot more headroom to be happy with the dynamics at my typical listening levels - another 3-6db of output will do the trick and based on all the early numbers coming out on the HSU VTF-3 MK3 (and similarly spec'd HO) it will easily produce that improvement over the PB12-NSD. And at least as important to me is the claimed superior musicality of the HSU's according to many reviewers and forum members, something I will determine with my own ears beginning this Wednesday when FedEx brings the Turbo and 3MK3.


So do you currently own the PB12-NSD? Anxiously waitng for your thoughts on the new VTF-3 MK3.

[TJEli]

an SVS rep told me in an email that the only thing they plan on doing once the new year comes around is RAISING their prices


BS

[RMK!]

BS


Well I heard that Tom/Ron are selling the company to… are you ready for this… TheEar. He in turn is looking for partners (I assume eyes, nose, mouth etc) in transforming SVS into a totally new venture. Something about genetically engineered auditory systems with a slick IPOD interface. Very hush hush stuff.

[craigsub]

Well I heard that Tom/Ron are selling the company to… are you ready for this… TheEar. He in turn is looking for partners (I assume eyes, nose, mouth etc) in transforming SVS into a totally new venture. Something about genetically engineered auditory systems with a slick IPOD interface. Very hush hush stuff.

Before anyone explodes, this is an excellent example of dry humour. It is not intended to be taken seriously. ;)

[rossandwendy]

So do you currently own the PB12-NSD? Anxiously waitng for your thoughts on the new VTF-3 MK3.

Yes Jeffrey, still have the PB12-NSD set up in my HT until tomorrow when I put the VTF-3 mk3 in place and I'll post some initial listening impressions before the weekend. Actually, FedEx attempted to deliver a day early this morning but I was sleeping in and missed them :(.

The SVS I have is by no means a bad product considering it is part of their entry-level lineup and it has fared decently in my large room having impressed many non-audiophiles in DVD movie demos and actually made my next-door neighbor's pictures go crooked when their walls shook while I was "testing" a little too loudly one day :o. But I have to try this new HSU to see if its extra headroom and supposedly better 'musicality' will be a closer fit for my tastes.

The customer service from SVS and HSU has been outstanding and IMO both are excellent companies deserving of audition.

[rossandwendy]

Before anyone explodes, this is an excellent example of dry humour. It is not intended to be taken seriously. ;)

craigsub, this may not be the correct thread to post this but since I see you have dropped by I just want to say a big and sincere THANK YOU for the service you are providing a lot of us by your very thorough long-term subwoofer testing/shootout! I've read every page on each forum where its referenced and look forward to new updates.

[JEFFREY GTS]

Yeah Jeffrey, still have the PB12-NSD set up in my HT until tomorrow when I put the VTF-3 mk3 in place and I'll post some initial listening impressions before the weekend. Actually, FedEx attempted to deliver a day early this morning but I was sleeping in and missed them :(.

The SVS I have is by no means a bad product considering it is part of their entry-level lineup and it has fared decently in my large room having impressed many non-audiophiles in DVD movie demos and actually made my next-door neighbor's pictures go crooked when their walls shook while I was "testing" a little too loudly one day :o. But I have to try this new HSU to see if its extra headroom and supposedly better 'musicality' will be a closer fit for my tastes.

The customer service from SVS and HSU has been outstanding and IMO both are excellent companies deserving of audition.

Are you crazy? How on earth can you be sleeping in when they tried to deliver your new sub?!?!?! :eek:
I would be going down to my local UPS office and picking that bad boy up tonight. You should really consider that.
You have no idea how much weight I am putting behind your thoughts and reviews in regards to the HSU compared to the SVS. Your impressions of the HSU will most likely be the deciding factor of me keeping my SVS or returning it and getting the HSU. There isn't much of a price difference. So as soon as you get it up and running, post some initial impressions.
Thanks. :)

[rossandwendy]

Are you crazy? How on earth can you be sleeping in when they tried to deliver your new sub?!?!?! :eek:
I would be going down to my local UPS office and picking that bad boy up tonight. You should really consider that.
You have no idea how much weight I am putting behind your thoughts and reviews in regards to the HSU compared to the SVS. Your impressions of the HSU will most likely be the deciding factor of me keeping my SVS or returning it and getting the HSU. There isn't much of a price difference. So as soon as you get it up and running, post some initial impressions.
Thanks. :)

I know man, I'm a total idiot for missing FedEx! The delivery wasn't scheduled until tomorrow so thought I could get a couple extra hours of shut-eye today, but then I get burned :( And they won't let me pick it up because this shipment requires a direct signature at the residence only...actually works out best though because I've got a ton of work to get out of the way today before I can start playing with the sub tomorrow :).

I really like and respect both companies and have no axe to grind with either, so I do promise to give you my very best listening and to articulate as clearly as possible what I hear in my room on both movies and music. I don't consider myself a "golden ear" by any stretch but over the years I have owned value-oriented audiophile speakers from the likes of Thiel and Magnepan and I highly value accurate music reproduction, and more recently have come to also value power and accuracy in home theater. My measuring tools are basic but I will have the sub properly calibrated using Avia and other test tone discs and measured with the RS meter (with correction values applied) and should be able to provide some numbers regarding the in-room deep bass extension. I suspect the 3mk3 (especially with Turbo attached) is going to tilt a few more pictures in my neighbor's house on War Of The Worlds :D.

[JEFFREY GTS]

I appreciate your unbiased review. I just want to know if the extra money is worth returning the SVS for the HSU. I just want to get the best performance at a good price and at $749, it seems like a very good deal.

[rossandwendy]

Thought I was ready to go with the SVS and then saw the new HSU come out. :confused: :confused: :confused: Any suggestions? Any help would be appreciated. Used for 90% HT.

vetobe, have you had further thoughts since starting this thread about which way you are leaning?

[vetobe]

I am really leaning toward the HSU VTF-3MK3. I almost called them today to order it but like some of the others, I am waiting for your opinion. Oh what power you have in swaying impressionable minds rossandwendy. I have not seen any other forums where someone has actually reviewed the HSU once they have gotten it into their home. Has anyone?

I believe that HSU has given us a good product, but I want someone else's impressions(compared to the PB12-NSD) other than Peter and the Dr.'s before I take the leap. Thanks for being the guinea pig.

Another thing that pushes me toward the HSU is that it may be upgradeable to the HO. Now this upgrade may be cost prohibitive but I like to have options.

[rossandwendy]

I am really leaning toward the HSU VTF-3MK3. I almost called them today to order it but like some of the others, I am waiting for your opinion. Oh what power you have in swaying impressionable minds rossandwendy. I have not seen any other forums where someone has actually reviewed the HSU once they have gotten it into their home. Has anyone?

I believe that HSU has given us a good product, but I want someone else's impressions(compared to the PB12-NSD) other than Peter and the Dr.'s before I take the leap. Thanks for being the guinea pig.

Another thing that pushes me toward the HSU is that it may be upgradeable to the HO. Now this upgrade may be cost prohibitive but I like to have options.

I'll try not to let the power go to my head, nor crack under the pressure ;).

I too have been searching for new owner reviews on the 3mk3 but have not found any yet, but the numerous raves coming out about the HO version is helpful since the 3mk3 uses the same enclosure and same new dual 4" ports, and according to HSU it will perform similarly in many respects to the HO but will not have quite as low of distortion in the deepest frequencies due to the new technology driver in the HO. But the older 3mk2 already performed admirably regarding distortion so I doubt I will miss having the HO considering the ridiculously low intro price on the 3mk3 - even Peter with HSU said in one thread that the 3mk3 seems to be the best HSU value currently. The first upcoming professional review on this unit that was cited earlier in this thread sounds extremely promising with the 3mk3 putting out 109db in-room and 112db with Turbo at 20hz, and that at more than 15' from the listening position. This already gives me high expectations for its performance compared to the PB12-NSD since the HSU in that reviewer's room is equalling or bettering (w/turbo) his Ultra series SVS in output at one of the standard benchmark frequencies.

Ok, I know talk is cheap, so the real proof for me will begin tomorrow when I get to start actually listening to the HSU. I'll try to post my first listening results by Wednesday night and more by Friday as I get more extensive evaluation in.

BTW, why does buying the right sub always feel like a life-or-death situation?? :confused: ;) My wife definitely does not get any of this - if she was single she'd still be watching the old 19" tube tv through its crap built-in speakers :eek:

[jwill242004]

I know man, I'm a total idiot for missing FedEx! The delivery wasn't scheduled until tomorrow so thought I could get a couple extra hours of shut-eye today, but then I get burned :( And they won't let me pick it up because this shipment requires a direct signature at the residence only...actually works out best though because I've got a ton of work to get out of the way today before I can start playing with the sub tomorrow :).

I really like and respect both companies and have no axe to grind with either, so I do promise to give you my very best listening and to articulate as clearly as possible what I hear in my room on both movies and music. I don't consider myself a "golden ear" by any stretch but over the years I have owned value-oriented audiophile speakers from the likes of Thiel and Magnepan and I highly value accurate music reproduction, and more recently have come to also value power and accuracy in home theater. My measuring tools are basic but I will have the sub properly calibrated using Avia and other test tone discs and measured with the RS meter (with correction values applied) and should be able to provide some numbers regarding the in-room deep bass extension. I suspect the 3mk3 (especially with Turbo attached) is going to tilt a few more pictures in my neighbor's house on War Of The Worlds :D.

this is so funny, I am in the EXACT same boat. I ordered the MK3 on Friday and am scheduled for a Thursday delivery. I asked Fed Ex over the phone if I could pick it up from their office and they said it was only able to be delivered to a residence (for what reason I have no idea). I was also in the same boat regarding the PB12NSD. My choice was between these two subs but I felt a much better value in the new Mk3. I have no doubts it will significantly outperform the NSD and I will post feedback as well on Thursday night.

[rossandwendy]

this is so funny, I am in the EXACT same boat. I ordered the MK3 on Friday and am scheduled for a Thursday delivery. I asked Fed Ex over the phone if I could pick it up from their office and they said it was only able to be delivered to a residence (for what reason I have no idea). I was also in the same boat regarding the PB12NSD. My choice was between these two subs but I felt a much better value in the new Mk3. I have no doubts it will significantly outperform the NSD and I will post feedback as well on Thursday night.

Howdy jwill, last week saw your post on the HSU forum and I am looking forward to your evaluation comments on the 3mk3 also.

I am getting seriously worried about pissing off my nice neighbors - if the 3mk3 outputs another 3-6db or so on loud peaks, and reaches with authority into the deep wall-rattling regions below 20hz, I'm afraid I'm going to push their goodwill past the limit! I do plan on having them over for a demo night and drinks so that may foster some more "understanding" :).

[rossandwendy]

Right up front I want to say that I am aware of the emotional intensity in many SVS vs. HSU forum threads and I do not want to stir up anyone's anger nor come across as bashing one of these brands - I still believe they are both excellent and worthy of audition and the customer service from both has been top-notch for me. I'll also say that the SVS PB12-NSD remains a solid buy at the $599 price point and offers a type of sound (at least in my room and to my ears) that may be preferred by some to the HSU I received today and have been listening to. I also fully admit this is not a totally fair comparison because the non-promo shipped price of the HSU VTF-3 MK3 with Turbo is about $256 more than the shipped PB12-NSD, so the 3MK3 is competing more with SVS's Plus (or possibly even Ultra) series. So what follows is simply one man's opinion in his room...

My first observations were overwhelmingly positive just from unpacking this beast - the care and protection that has gone into HSU's packaging is inspiring and it was without a doubt the most fun I have ever had opening an item I've purchased. Suffice it to say it would be exceedingly difficult for one of these to incur shipping damage the way it's protected. Build quality seems good, with the SVS being possibly a bit nicer with no visible lines on their rounded corners compared to the HSU capped look. With Turbo mounted the 3MK3 makes for an imposing figure but the testosterone in me thinks it's way cool looking in person :cool:

I placed the new 3MK3 in the exact position that had been occupied by the PB12-NSD (10' from listening position at the front left, 3' from side and 3.5" from front with driver facing wall, turbo facing right) and used the same settings I'd been using - crossover at 80hz in my H/K 340 receiver (sub's crossover bypassed) to my L/R main Ascend CBM-170 SE's and center CMT-340 SE and crossover at 100hz for my two L/R back side-mounted surrounds, Ascend HTM-200's. Sub EQ switch was set to Max Extension and Turbo was mounted, and phase was set to 180. After pink noise calibration with Avia at 85db the sub's volume control is at about 10 o'clock (1/3rd of max) and the receiver's sub level trim set to -7 (out of a possible range of +/-10). The home theater room as described earlier is 3450 cu.ft. with a 4' wide x 9' high opening on one side to another room of 3350 cu.ft. and on the other side an open stairwell to the 2nd floor, so pretty difficult to drive to high levels.

I first popped in the classic Dave Grusin CD, Mountain Dance, and listened in 2-channel stereo. This is a warm natural recording and features lots of electric bass and kick drum...WOW! I have never heard this favorite album sound so musical in my home - the bass lines were very smooth and clean, the drums had impact but no boom, and I was able to follow the underlying bass lines through each track like never before. It basically sounded like well-recorded music should - very natural. I had just sampled this disc through the PB12-NSD right before I moved the HSU into place and while it was pleasant, the bass was much thicker and even bloated, with less sense of the actual instrument being played.

Next I listened to the first track on the included HSU test CD, an excerpt from the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony (and I had also listened to this on the SVS before hooking up the HSU). I was struck by how much more low-level ambience I was hearing through my system compared to the same track on the PB12-NSD - there was more sense of the recording venue. When the organ got going with an ultra-deep 16hz pedal tone, it was much cleaner than on the SVS with more of a sense of being at a concert with a real organ playing. The PB12-NSD actually seemed to play the 16hz louder/fuller, but to my ears with more distortion which may be where the extra sense of volume was coming from.

The first DVD to go in was Star Wars AOTC at -10db, the opening scene with ship passing by and landing and soon after the explosion. Ok, I knew immediately that my new investment was paying off in terms of massive power and headroom because I heard and felt the deep frequencies like never before and for the first time in my large room I finally experienced an explosion that carried the full weight and dynamic range! I asked my wife to sit and watch a few scenes and we went to ch. 7 Speeder Chase - the 3MK3 was startling in how clean and clear it played, never thick/congested/boomy like I had been hearing a bit with the SVS, and the whole system was now singing so well that my wife quickly became totally immersed in the movie and was annoyed when I stopped it after that scene (that is a good thing!). Next was ch. 40 The Arena and again the HSU amazed me with it's clean, agile output.

The pod race from Star Wars TPM at -8db was a revelation - for the first time I felt like I must be hearing nearly everything in the bass as it was encoded on the DVD - there were entire new frequencies, textures, and tonalities that I had never noticed in the dozen or so viewings of this same scene through the PB12-NSD over the last few months. Where the SVS had a tendency to make LFE effects all sound the same, the HSU was delivering nuance. You might say that the SVS in my room paints in broad brush strokes, whereas this HSU is drawing its outlines with a pen. And just as startling to me as the clean textured bass was the transformation in all my other speakers - possibly because of lower distortion in the crossover region and beyond, I noticed a level of precise imaging and clarity to a degree I had not heard before with the Ascends. It seems the 3MK3 is more articulate in the upper bass which has strengthened my entire soundstage.

I'll try to sum up by saying that further DVD viewing/listening to parts of Flight Of The Phoenix, Jurassic Park III, and Toy Story II have all conveyed the low-distortion, clean, detailed, accurate, musical qualities of the 3MK3 - basically revealing more subtleties in all kinds of bass instead of a tendency for it all to sound similar, and also a sense of authority and power I did not think a single sub could give me in this room - the way this sub controls the room and effortlessly reproduces the full weight of very loud dynamic bass passages has literally left my jaw wide-open during these sessions! I will try to experiment with placement and get some basic test-tone measurements for frequency response in the next day or so.

Some people may prefer the sound of the PB12-NSD because it comes across as fuller and thicker/fatter, compared to the HSU's cleanness possibly seeming a bit lean for some tastes. But for my ears this accuracy and nuance is just what the doctor ordered, and along with the incredible power and dynamics it's a sound that pleases me greatly :) . Even my wife who has no interest in the subtleties of the audio/video hobby readily acknowledged the HSU's apparent naturalness.

Now it's time to take some Christmas cookies over to the neighbors and apologize for what was probably not a very pleasurable experience for them ;)

[vetobe]

rossandwendy, thank you for the review. It sounds like there is depth and clean bass coming from the HSU. How far from your sitting position?

I know you just got your new toy and I probably have no right in asking this, but sometime soon could you take off the turbo and tell me what you think? :rolleyes: I am pushing my budget already and I am not going to get the turbo right now so...

You also may want to put some alcohol in those cookies that you bring to your neighbors so you can play with your sub and your neighbors can sleep nice and deeply. :) :) :)

[rossandwendy]

rossandwendy, thank you for the review. It sounds like there is depth and clean bass coming from the HSU. How far from your sitting position?

I know you just got your new toy and I probably have no right in asking this, but sometime soon could you take off the turbo and tell me what you think? :rolleyes: I am pushing my budget already and I am not going to get the turbo right now so...

You also may want to put some alcohol in those cookies that you bring to your neighbors so you can play with your sub and your neighbors can sleep nice and deeply. :) :) :)

vetobe, love the suggestion of alcohol-laced cookies for the neighbors :D In fact I think I'll have a few myself ;)

Thanks for catching that, I just edited the review to add the sub's distance from listening position (10').

My wife wants me to sit with her nicely now and watch some TV together for the remainder of the evening, but I promise to try the 3MK3 sans turbo tomorrow and report back.

[vetobe]

Thanks again for your review. It sounds like you are very happy with the HSU.
As an aside, are you going to try to hook the HSU and SVS up together? Don't know what it would sound like but may be interesting.

[Peter Marcks]

Right up front I want to say that I am aware of the emotional intensity in many SVS vs. HSU forum threads and I do not want to stir up anyone's anger nor come across as bashing one of these brands - I still believe they are both excellent and worthy of audition and the customer service from both has been top-notch for me. I'll also say that the SVS PB12-NSD remains a solid buy at the $599 price point and offers a type of sound (at least in my room and to my ears) that may be preferred by some to the HSU I received today and have been listening to. I also fully admit this is not a totally fair comparison because the non-promo shipped price of the HSU VTF-3 MK3 with Turbo is about $256 more than the shipped PB12-NSD, so the 3MK3 is competing more with SVS's Plus (or possibly even Ultra) series. So what follows is simply one man's opinion in his room...

My first observations were overwhelmingly positive just from unpacking this beast - the care and protection that has gone into HSU's packaging is inspiring and it was without a doubt the most fun I have ever had opening an item I've purchased. Suffice it to say it would be exceedingly difficult for one of these to incur shipping damage the way it's protected. Build quality seems good, with the SVS being possibly a bit nicer with no visible lines on their rounded corners compared to the HSU capped look. With Turbo mounted the 3MK3 makes for an imposing figure but the testosterone in me thinks it's way cool looking in person :cool:

I placed the new 3MK3 in the exact position that had been occupied by the PB12-NSD (10' from listening position at the front left, 3' from side and 3.5" from front with driver facing wall, turbo facing right) and used the same settings I'd been using - crossover at 80hz in my H/K 340 receiver (sub's crossover bypassed) to my L/R main Ascend CBM-170 SE's and center CMT-340 SE and crossover at 100hz for my two L/R back side-mounted surrounds, Ascend HTM-200's. Sub EQ switch was set to Max Extension and Turbo was mounted, and phase was set to 180. After pink noise calibration with Avia at 85db the sub's volume control is at about 10 o'clock (1/3rd of max) and the receiver's sub level trim set to -7 (out of a possible range of +/-10). The home theater room as described earlier is 3450 cu.ft. with a 4' wide x 9' high opening on one side to another room of 3350 cu.ft. and on the other side an open stairwell to the 2nd floor, so pretty difficult to drive to high levels.

I first popped in the classic Dave Grusin CD, Mountain Dance, and listened in 2-channel stereo. This disc has a warm natural recording and features lots of electric bass and kick drum...WOW! I have never heard this favorite album sound so musical in my home - the bass lines were very smooth and clean, the drums had impact but no boom, and I was able to follow the underlying bass lines through each track like never before. It basically sounded like well-recorded music should - very natural. I had just sampled this disc through the PB12-NSD right before I moved the HSU into place and while it was pleasant, the bass was much thicker and even bloated, with less sense of the actual instrument being played.

Next I listened to the first track on the included HSU test CD, an excerpt from the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony (and I had also listened to this on the SVS before hooking up the HSU). I was struck by how much more low-level ambience I was hearing through my system compared to the same track on the PB12-NSD - there was more sense of the recording venue. When the organ got going with an ultra-deep 16hz pedal tone, it was much cleaner than on the SVS with more of a sense of being at a concert with a real organ playing. The PB12-NSD actually seemed to play the 16hz louder/fuller, but to my ears with more distortion which may be where the extra sense of volume was coming from.

The first DVD to go in was Star Wars AOTC at -10db, the opening scene with ship passing by and landing and soon after the explosion. Ok, I knew immediately that my new investment was paying off in terms of massive power and headroom because I heard and felt the deep frequencies like never before and finally I hard an explosion that carried the full weight and dynamic range for the very first time in my large room! I asked my wife to sit and watch a few scenes and we went to ch. 7 Speeder Chase - the 3MK3 was startling in how clean and clear it played, never thick/congested/boomy like I had been hearing a bit with the SVS, and the whole system was now singing so well that my wife quickly became totally immersed in the movie and was annoyed when I stopped it after that scene (that is a good thing!). Next was ch. 40 The Arena and again the HSU amazed me with it's clean, agile output.

The pod race from Star Wars TPM at -8db was a revelation - for the first time I felt like I must be hearing nearly everything in the bass as it was encoded - there were entire new frequencies, textures, and tonalities that I had never noticed in the dozen or so viewing of this same scene through the PB12-NSD over the last few months. Where the SVS had a tendency to make LFE effects all sound the same, the HSU was delivering nuance. You might say that the SVS in my room paints in broad strokes, whereas this HSU is drawing its outlines with a pen. And just as startling to me as the clean textured bass was the transformation in all my other speakers - possibly because of lower distortion in the crossover region and beyond, I noticed a level of precise imaging and clarity to a degree I had not heard before with the Ascends. It seems the 3MK3 is more articulate in the upper bass which has strengthened my entire soundstage.

I'll try to sum up by saying that further DVD viewing/listening to parts of Flight Of The Phoenix, Jurassic Park III, and Toy Story II have all conveyed the low-distortion, clean, detailed, accurate, musical qualities of the 3MK3 - basically revealing more subtleties in all kinds of bass instead of a tendency for it all to sound similar, and also a sense of authority and power I did not think a single sub could give me in this room - the way this sub controls the room and effortlessly reproduces the full weight of very loud dynamic bass passages has literally left my jaw wide-open during these sessions! I will try to experiment with placement and get some basic test-tone measurements for frequency response in the next day or so.

Some people may prefer the sound of the PB12-NSD because it comes across as fuller and thicker/fatter, compared to the HSU's cleanness possibly seeming a bit lean for some tastes. But for my ears this accuracy and nuance is just what the doctor ordered, and along with the incredible power and dynamics it's a sound that pleases me greatly :) . Even my wife who has no interest in the subtleties of the audio/video hobby readily acknowledged the HSU's apparent naturalness.

Now it's time to take some Christmas cookies over to the neighbors and apologize for what was probably not a very pleasurable experience for them ;)

Let's just say that I am left speechless and blown away by this highly eloquent review, a sincere thank you for all the kind words!

With your large room, I would be interested in hearing your impressions on maximum output mode (both ports open, without turbocharger).

Sincerely,

[rossandwendy]

Tonight we were notified of the sudden death of a family member and we'll be heading out of state tomorrow for a week to deal with all the necessary arrangements, so needless to say I will have to put further subwoofer testing and forum responses on hold until sometime around the New Year.

Best to all for the holidays,
Ross

[rlb4]

rossandwendy,
Great review. I'm also deciding between the PB12-NSD and the VTF-3 MK3(w/o turbo) and would love to hear your impressions comparing the two without the turbo. Specifically, I'm interested in comparing the two with movies and how they do with <20Hz scenes. Which do you think goes deeper and lets you "feel" the rumble in your bones and shakes your house? Also, when adding the turbo does it go deeper(more feel/rumble) or does it just add to the output allowing higher volumes? Thanks again.

[rossandwendy]

rossandwendy,
Great review. I'm also deciding between the PB12-NSD and the VTF-3 MK3(w/o turbo) and would love to hear your impressions comparing the two without the turbo. Specifically, I'm interested in comparing the two with movies and how they do with <20Hz scenes. Which do you think goes deeper and lets you "feel" the rumble in your bones and shakes your house? Also, when adding the turbo does it go deeper(more feel/rumble) or does it just add to the output allowing higher volumes? Thanks again.

Hi rlb4, thanks for the positive comment and I am happy if the review proves useful for others. We have to leave town for a week for an unexpected funeral but when I get back the weekend before New Year's I will do just such a comparison as you are requesting and will post detailed listening impressions as well as some basic frequency response measurements.

The Turbo is used in conjunction with switching the amp to Maximum Extension mode so with it you are achieving a lower tune and thus deeper frequency response as well as much higher output in the deepest bass than you would otherwise get if you had one port plugged (max extension mode without Turbo).

[rossandwendy]

Let's just say that I am left speechless and blown away by this highly eloquent review, a sincere thank you for all the kind words!

With your large room, I would be interested in hearing your impressions on maximum output mode (both ports open, without turbocharger).

Sincerely,

Hi Peter, thanks for the feedback. I'll be sure to test the max output mode and post a follow-up as soon as I get back in town in about a week.

[craigsub]

R&W ... That was one well written review. Thanks for taking the time and putting forth the effort ! Your writing style is excellent, as it makes the reader feel as if he experienced the test himself.

[new27]

rossandwendy,

Thanks, great review.

Question, you describe the sub as very musical, how close is the sound to that of a sealed
sub, if at all?

[bgillyjcu]

As a pb-12 owner I hate to read this because this sub sounds like it is better than mine for only a little bit more money.

But then again I could spend a little more money ($256 more as you stated) and get the SVS plus model, so I wonder how that compares since they are about the same price.

[DrewB]

As a pb-12 owner I hate to read this because this sub sounds like it is better than mine for only a little bit more money.

But then again I could spend a little more money ($256 more as you stated) and get the SVS plus model, so I wonder how that compares since they are about the same price.

Why not simply purchase it and find out?

[bgillyjcu]

Why not simply purchase it and find out?



I'd love to purchase about 3-4 subs and compare them all BUT.

1. I do not have that kind of time to buy them, unpack them, test them, ship some back...etc
2. I certainly do not have that kind of money or credit right now, and in general who does have that kind of funding these days...if you do, then more power to you

[pbc]

How a sub "sounds" is very subjective. It's like saying Coke is better than Pepsi. Some people prefer the taste of Coke, other's prefer the taste of Pepsi. Both will quench your thirst.

I'm also going through a subwoofer decision and was about to pull the trigger on the PB12-Plus, then suddenly the HO came out and was being lauded, as was the much more expensive F112/113, and supposedly the EP500 Axiom sounds great, so now I'm leaning towards the HO from HSU. Now all of a sudden there's a new MFW-15 coming out soon which is supposed to be "insane" at $599 and 2 for $899 or whatever that will "topple the Plus/2", SVS is changing it's Ultra models (and updating their Plus cabinets afterwards which will supposedly offer improvement over their PB12-Plus models), and I start to wonder, hey maybe I should wait. It makes it almost impossible for "internet geeks" like us who need to research every aspect of anything we buy over $300 to actually settle on something. I.e., something will always come out that someone thinks is "better" than what we end up buying.

There are hundreds of happy buyers of the NSD series subs, they can't all be wrong. You've got an awesome sub at that price point (probably one of the best), just enjoy it and stop worrying!! When guys like Tom Nouisane are applauding the sub, you know you've made a "sound" choice (pun intended).

Now excuse me while I ignore everything I just said and go and fret some more about my own darn purchase because I'm just like you darn it!! :confused:

[bgillyjcu]

One guy that builds the subs at the SVS factory and I had a nice talk while I was there to pick up my sub. He was explaining that the PB-12 front firing and front port design is actually "better" and more cost friendly than the bottom firing and rear port of the other subs they offer. He also stated that the bottom firing subs are just getting too expensive to make and maintain pricepoints. He said they are working on totally redesigning the other models to help tame cost and to obviously maximize performance.

Now if that will happen now, or a year from now who knows....

[DrewB]

I'm also going through a subwoofer decision and was about to pull the trigger on the PB12-Plus, then suddenly the HO came out and was being lauded, as was the much more expensive F112/113, and supposedly the EP500 Axiom sounds great, so now I'm leaning towards the HO from HSU. Now all of a sudden there's a new MFW-15 coming out soon which is supposed to be "insane" at $599 and 2 for $899 or whatever that will "topple the Plus/2", SVS is changing it's Ultra models (and updating their Plus cabinets afterwards which will supposedly offer improvement over their PB12-Plus models), and I start to wonder, hey maybe I should wait. It makes it almost impossible for "internet geeks" like us who need to research every aspect of anything we buy over $300 to actually settle on something. I.e., something will always come out that someone thinks is "better" than what we end up buying.

You're gonna drive yourself nuts. What kind of night and day differences are you expecting from subs less than $1500 and within a few hundred bucks of each other? It ain't gonna happen. You're slitting hairs. Just buy a potent sub and sit back and enjoy a movie.

[dan711]

You're gonna drive yourself nuts. What kind of night and day differences are you expecting from subs less than $1500 and within a few hundred bucks of each other? It ain't gonna happen. You're slitting hairs. Just buy a potent sub and sit back and enjoy a movie.

I agree 100%. It is too easy to get sucked up into all the hype about a new product. Believe me I've been there done that.

[rockemsockem]

You're gonna drive yourself nuts. What kind of night and day differences are you expecting from subs less than $1500 and within a few hundred bucks of each other? It ain't gonna happen. You're slitting hairs. Just buy a potent sub and sit back and enjoy a movie.

At least I know one person on this forum has common sense. ;)

[JEFFREY GTS]

Hey, if we had commen sense, I don't think we would be spending thousands of dollars on home theater gear. Its just so much fun though.
For real though, I just want to mkae sure that I am getting the best performance out there for the money. When you are spending $600+ on a sub, I want to make sure I get it right. And for a couple of extra hundred dollars them HSU seems to be a heck of a deal, then again, someone metioned the av123 MFW two of them for $899, that is ridiculous, plus they are right down the way from me in Broomfield, might wait for them to come out with their sub.

[vitod]

Tonight we were notified of the sudden death of a family member and we'll be heading out of state tomorrow for a week to deal with all the necessary arrangements, so needless to say I will have to put further subwoofer testing and forum responses on hold until sometime around the New Year.

Best to all for the holidays,
Ross

Oh man, sorry to hear that. My condolences.

[rossandwendy]

R&W ... That was one well written review. Thanks for taking the time and putting forth the effort ! Your writing style is excellent, as it makes the reader feel as if he experienced the test himself.

Craig, thank you for the good words - it especially means a lot to me coming from you since I highly value and respect your subwoofer testing.

[rossandwendy]

Oh man, sorry to hear that. My condolences.

Thank you very much vitod. My wife's mother died instantly of an apparent massive heart attack Wednesday and she was only 65 with no reported heart problems previously. We traveled to a neighboring state to deal with the multitude of funeral and estate arrangements and it definitely is making for a different kind of Christmas season.

I will welcome a return to home and more listening/testing of my two subs in about a week, as escaping to the audio/video hobby after the solemnity here will be a needed respite.

[rossandwendy]

Hey, if we had commen sense, I don't think we would be spending thousands of dollars on home theater gear. Its just so much fun though.
For real though, I just want to mkae sure that I am getting the best performance out there for the money. When you are spending $600+ on a sub, I want to make sure I get it right. And for a couple of extra hundred dollars them HSU seems to be a heck of a deal, then again, someone metioned the av123 MFW two of them for $899, that is ridiculous, plus they are right down the way from me in Broomfield, might wait for them to come out with their sub.

I agree with you Jeffrey - our passion for pursuing increasingly better and better sound and picture in our homes is why we visit forums like AVS in the first place.

[rossandwendy]

rossandwendy,

Thanks, great review.

Question, you describe the sub as very musical, how close is the sound to that of a sealed
sub, if at all?

Thanks new27. My experience with sealed subs is very limited and dates back to 20 years ago, so someone like Craigsub would be much better able to address your question since he has been evaluating both types of subs.

[Peter Marcks]

My condolences rossandwendy. I hope you and your family have a very happy new year.

Sincerely,

[JEFFREY GTS]

Anymore word or reviews on this sub? I am about to pull the trigger on it. I want to compare it to the PB12-NSD I have right now. I am just wondering if I should go with or without turbo. I talked to the Dr. and he said that I would be perfectly happy with the MK3 w/o turbo. He said that the turbo is amazing in the very low frequencies and if I listened to a lot of pipe organ music and low frequency stuff then it would be a good choice but I also told him that I liked more of a punchy hit you in the chest type of bass and not too concerened about it going ridiculously low, 20 hz is fine with me. What do you guys think? With or without turbo? One more thing to keep in mind, if I go turbo, I plan on buying another MK3 down the road and I can't stack them on top of each other if I go with the turbo.

[rossandwendy]

My condolences rossandwendy. I hope you and your family have a very happy new year.

Sincerely,

Thank you Peter!

[JEFFREY GTS]

I notice that you are back. I too am sorry for your loss. I wish you and your family the best.

[rossandwendy]

Anymore word or reviews on this sub? I am about to pull the trigger on it. I want to compare it to the PB12-NSD I have right now. I am just wondering if I should go with or without turbo. I talked to the Dr. and he said that I would be perfectly happy with the MK3 w/o turbo. He said that the turbo is amazing in the very low frequencies and if I listened to a lot of pipe organ music and low frequency stuff then it would be a good choice but I also told him that I liked more of a punchy hit you in the chest type of bass and not too concerened about it going ridiculously low, 20 hz is fine with me. What do you guys think? With or without turbo? One more thing to keep in mind, if I go turbo, I plan on buying another MK3 down the road and I can't stack them on top of each other if I go with the turbo.

Hi Jeffrey,

Thank you sincerely for your best wishes regarding our loss. When we get back home this coming weekend after the funeral I will start some measuring and listening tests on the VTF-3 mk3 in max output mode (no turbo) and compare it to my PB-12NSD and will post more comments by Monday. Also look for updates from Craigsub in his subwoofer shootout threads on this and other forums since he has purchased both of these models and will be testing them in the next week or two.

I've noticed a lack of mid-bass impact with the PB12-NSD in my room (possibly an inevitable compromise due to its non-adjustable 18hz tune and single port) so it will be interesting to compare to the 3mk3 since it is supposed to do especially well in that regard when run without turbo in max output mode (22hz tune). HSU says it is even punchier in the midbass than the more expensive HO.

Ross

[rossandwendy]

Hey all, Happy New Year!

For anyone still looking for comparisons on these two subs, I have resumed my listening sessions the last couple days with more coming Tuesday and Wednesday.

I've been experimenting with placement of the HSU in various locations in my room and after reading an article about the benefits of nearfield placement I set the VTF-3 mk3 right against the left side of my listening couch, woofer facing into the couch with about 4" clearance, and 3' from my ears. Because room boundaries were now more distant and thus not effecting the initial soundwaves as much, the bass was extremely smooth and even-handed with absolutely no boom or unpleasing emphasis that can result from boundary placement. In this position music is even more stunning than before with an extreme amount of accuracy. And on movies, the impact from having the sub nearfield and firing into the couch has been amazing, especially on the dinosaur fight in JPIII where I have never felt anything like the way each footstep of the T-Rex shook my whole body with unbelievable amounts of LFE, yet so clean and undistorted.

I removed the turbo and briefly tried the same 16hz tuning with one port plugged, and in my large room I do not like this as it sounded a little too lean and strained at high volumes (I bet it would be quite good though in medium to small spaces). I also did quite a bit of listening with no turbo in the maximum output mode (both ports open) and the overall dynamics and power in this mode is fantastic with a fuller, warmer sound in the mid-bass that hits very hard when required by the source. I even prefer the max output/no turbo mode to using the turbo, at least in this nearfield placement. I did notice a lack of the very deepest frequencies since there are no nearby room boundaries to provide reinforcement, but it did not bother me because the bass from 20hz and up was so good.

Tonight I've put the turbo back on and in max extension mode and have moved the VTF-3 mk3 into the front right corner just a few inches from two walls so I can experiment with an even more powerful room-reinforced sound. In this corner placement I have had to turn the sub way down which is a great thing, providing even more headroom for loud passages. The sub level control is now only 20% of the way up and my receiver trim level is at -7, so this thing is going to really be able to stretch its legs and play extremely loud when required in this new position. I'll be listening to many demo DVD scenes and more music and will report again soon.

Overall today I have noted how the VTF-3 mk3 in my room is so much more powerful and dynamic than my PB12-NSD, and still noticeably cleaner and more articulate. Whether in max ouput mode or with turbo attached in max extension, the 3mk3 always sounds muscular and controlled even at quite loud DVD playback levels. The HSU has double the ports of the SVS which makes a huge difference in moving massive amounts of air without compression or distortion, and though both have amps of about the same power rating it is clear that the 3mk3 has a more efficient driver.

[Anka]

Near field placement sounds impressive. Curious to here the results of corner loading. Also wonder if there is any advantage to a turbo for a music only setup...

THANKS

anka

[JEFFREY GTS]

Just when I thought I had my mind made up in keeping the SVS. :)
I too am curious to your opinions on corner loading the sub in the front. That is where my sub is.

[vitod]

Very happy your back ross! :D Thanks for the sub tests, keep them coming! ;)

[Philip A]

Hey rossandwendy,

Your thoughts are really helpful! Must be tons of fun...

Could you direct me to that article on nearfield placement? I have a SVS PB12 Plus/2 on the way and am wondering if I'll get better music and clarity of bass with a nearer position.

Thanks and sorry about your recent loss,

Phil :)

[rossandwendy]

Thank you Phil!

The link for the article about nearfield sub placement is from hometheatersound.com and this position is often recommended by Dr. Hsu:

http://www.hometheatersound.com/features/videonoise/vn_20060801.htm

I ran through quite a few DVD scenes and music CDs today with the VTF-3 MK3 corner loaded, and while it was indeed powerful in that location it was setting off too many resonances and rattles in the nearby walls, fireplace, and windows. I used it both with Turbo (max extension mode) and without (max output mode) and I continue to prefer the max output/no turbo mode in my room because of superior dynamics, increased fullness and slam in the mid-bass, and less localization of the sub location.

Next I tried placement on a sidewall to my left and the sound there was really good, with less room resonances than the corner had. But I've been talking with my very nice neighbors about the fact that I have on occasion rattled the living room walls of their own house and today they heard some rumbling from my testing, so in an effort to avoid bothering them I once again tried that nearfield position with the 3MK3 side-firing right into the left side of the couch 3 feet from my listening seat (ports firing towards the front of the room). The benefits here are numerous as the sub is moved further away from my neighbors wall, it functions nicely as an end table with a lamp placed on it, and best of all the impact - WOW!!! My jaw literally dropped as I listened to the storm and subsequent plane crash near the beginning of Flight Of The Phoenix - each wave of LFE plummeted my listening couch and was strongly felt in my entire body, and I was picking up more subtleties of tone and texture in various bass effects compared to having the sub placed further away. When the plane takes a roll before the crash there is an extremely strong 30hz sustained tone and when it hit it was like getting an intense full-body massage!

The Star Wars I pod race, Finding Nemo submarine and Darla tapping scenes, JPIII dino fight, and WOTW pods emerging were all handled with great authority and an almost frightening palpability transferred through the couch to me. With nearfield I get less wall-shaking in the room but much more impact and vibration directly on me at the listening position, whereas placement close to room boundaries shakes all the walls in the living room but with less visceral impact on me. In nearfield I continued to prefer the sound of the 3MK3 without Turbo in the extended output mode, both with movies and music, as the additional headroom and full mid-bass impact are so addicting to me (kick drums in ext. output mode are clean, tight, and punchy). I'm sure the sub is not reproducing much below 20hz with this mode and placement, but I do not miss the mostly inaudible stuff in the teens because what I'm getting from 20hz on up is so awesome.

I still believe SVS makes excellent products as well, but it is clear to my ears that this VTF-3 MK3 is truly something special, certainly more accurate and musical than my SVS and a true bargain at $649 intro. And what has really surprised me is the power and dynamics in extended output mode considering my large open space (close to 7000 cu. ft. total and a stairwell opening). This is as much sub as I can use in my current house without driving my neighbors insane and I am delighted with the way it blends so well with my Ascend speakers (crossed over at 80hz/front and 100hz/surrounds I cannot localize it at all with nearfield placement). It's a keeper!

[rossandwendy]

This was just posted tonight in a thread at the HSU forum by a new VTF-3 MK3 owner, and it sums up what I feel as well:

"I really can't say much more than WOW - the balance of power and articulation blew me away."

[SbWillie]

It's safe to say I am now buying the MK3-w/Turbo instead of a PC ultra or 16-46..thanks guys! :D

Maybe the SVS guys will forgive me after I repeatedly told them I was buying SVS in my emails. :o

ROSS,

How much does nearfield decrease the rattling? My wife is heavily into decoring (Home Interiors to be exact) and extreme rattling,etc won't work with her.

My wife has a ton of back problems so the `massage' factor sounds very good! :D

[Denon2807]

rossandwendy, very interesting review on the two subs. Right now I'm stuck between going with either a dual PB12-NSD/2 or dual VTF-MK3 setup. You only tested the PB12/NSD against the MK3 so it's not really fair to my comparision. Want to pick up a PB12-NSD/2 to test against your MK3? :p

[rossandwendy]

ROSS,

How much does nearfield decrease the rattling? My wife is heavily into decoring (Home Interiors to be exact) and extreme rattling,etc won't work with her.

My wife has a ton of back problems so the `massage' factor sounds very good! :D

Hi SbWillie,

With the nearfield placement I am not noticing hardly any rattles throughout the entire room - even on the WOTW pods emerging scene which is the most outrageous LFE of any demo DVD I've heard. All other placements near walls/corners in my room have produced lots of shaking, rattling, and resonances in windows, mirrors, decorative objects, drywall, etc.

The woofer firing into the side of the couch is fantastic, but I also read great things about firing directly into the back of the couch behind the main listening seat (but my couch floats in the middle of the room so that is probably not an option for me). The closer the sub is to you, the lower the sub volume control will be after calibration, which gives you less overall room rattling and more dynamic headroom at the listening seat, plus the amazing physical impact of all those bass waves.

I really like the new cabinet design on the VTF-3 MK3 with a side-firing woofer and ports out the other end, because this makes placement against a couch easier - with my PB12-NSD nearfield wasn't effective because the woofer and single port are both on one end which makes the sub stick out too far and requires more breathing room for the port - basically a very awkward look and not compatible with the all-important WAF.

[rossandwendy]

rossandwendy, very interesting review on the two subs. Right now I'm stuck between going with either a dual PB12-NSD/2 or dual VTF-MK3 setup. You only tested the PB12/NSD against the MK3 so it's not really fair to my comparision. Want to pick up a PB12-NSD/2 to test against your MK3? :p

Denon2807, do you want my wife to kill me?? :D Along with a couple of Athena subs I have lying around there's four total right now and she is none too happy about it (gotta get some eBaying done soon) :)

If accurate music reproduction is a high priority for you, I would consider the HSU's or moving up to a better SVS driver than the NSD series. For a few years I had read so many comments about the musicality of the HSU subs and had read the Stereophile review where the older VTF-3 had made their Class A list of top audiophile components regardless of price, and now after owning both SVS and HSU my ears agree. Even for home theater I notice and really like the way the HSU more clearly articulates various LFE effects and gives more a sense of the variety of bass tonalities and textures. But if my theater was in a smaller room I bet my SVS would have been a lot more impressive since it would not have been straining near its limit.

You might want to find and read Craigsub's subwoofer shootout thread on the AV123.com forum as he has some pretty revealing ongoing tests with the VTF-3 HO vs. a couple different SVS models, and he has the 3MK3 being added to the test mix this week. The HO has a little less distortion in the very deepest frequencies due to a different driver design, but by HSU's own admittance the 3MK3 hits harder in the mid and upper bass than the HO (a quality I am loving!).

[rossandwendy]

Just when I thought I had my mind made up in keeping the SVS. :)
I too am curious to your opinions on corner loading the sub in the front. That is where my sub is.

Jeffrey, what is the size of your room? And have you noticed anything specific in the sound that you feel is missing, or that you wish was a little better?

[Denon2807]

Denon2807, do you want my wife to kill me?? :D Along with a couple of Athena subs I have lying around there's four total right now and she is none too happy about it (gotta get some eBaying done soon) :)

If accurate music reproduction is a high priority for you, I would consider the HSU's or moving up to a better SVS driver than the NSD series. For a few years I had read so many comments about the musicality of the HSU subs and had read the Stereophile review where the older VTF-3 had made their Class A list of top audiophile components regardless of price, and now after owning both SVS and HSU my ears agree. Even for home theater I notice and really like the way the HSU more clearly articulates various LFE effects and gives more a sense of the variety of bass tonalities and textures. But if my theater was in a smaller room I bet my SVS would have been a lot more impressive since it would not have been straining near its limit.

You might want to find and read Craigsub's subwoofer shootout thread on the AV123.com forum as he has some pretty revealing ongoing tests with the VTF-3 HO vs. a couple different SVS models, and he has the 3MK3 being added to the test mix this week. The HO has a little less distortion in the very deepest frequencies due to a different driver design, but by HSU's own admittance the 3MK3 hits harder in the mid and upper bass than the HO (a quality I am loving!).

Music is definitely not a priority. Movies is the main priority. My room is also pretty large at 30x20 feet with a 16 foot ceiling at its highest point in the middle. With those things in mind does your opinion change at all? Wouldn't the PB12-NSD/2 be better than the VTF-3 MK3 simply because it has dual woofers whereas the MK3 only has one? With two subs I'd be getting 4 woofers going with SVS or just 2 with HSU. And from what I'm hearing the more woofers the better because my room is so big.

Reasons why I'm leaning towards the PB12-NSD/2:
1. Better looking case design
2. Dual woofers
3. More comprehensive website (usually tends to mean they will be quicker at answering questions and more legit if that matters)

Reasons why I might go with the VTF-3 MK3:
1. Everyone is saying that it's a great subwoofer and it has tons of output
2. $250 cheaper than the PB12-NSD/2

[cyberbri]

For the price of a PB12-NSD/2, you're at the HSU VTF-3 HO level. Add another $100 and get the turbo.

Have you read this thread?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768150
5. Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
5a. Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
6. SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points.
6T. Axiom EP-500: 90 points
7. SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points.

...The Hsu VTF-3 HO W/Turbo has 38.9% higher performance than does the SVS PB12-Plus/2 (in this case, the overall musicality added to extension wins the day).


That's the SVS Ultra at #6 and and Plus/2 below that, not even the NSD/2.
(he hasn't evaluated the new VTF-3 MK3 yet)

The VTF-3 HO + Turbo pushes as much air as 4 VTF-3 MK2s (what I have, previous model, latest line is MK3).

[Denon2807]

For the price of a PB12-NSD/2, you're at the HSU VTF-3 HO level. Add another $100 and get the turbo.

Have you read this thread?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768150


That's the SVS Ultra at #6 and and Plus/2 below that, not even the NSD/2.
(he hasn't evaluated the new VTF-3 MK3 yet)

The VTF-3 HO + Turbo pushes as much air as 4 VTF-3 MK2s (what I have, previous model, latest line is MK3).

WOW! So then why would anyone buy a PB12-NSD/2 over a HSU VTF-3 HO, or do they not already? :p

So here's the big question: Would (2) HSU VTF-3 HO subs (without turbo charger) crank out gut wrenching bass even in a room the size of mine (30x20 with 16 foot ceiling)?

Also, is the VTF-3 HO the most powerful sub HSU makes? Their website doesn't seem to show much of anything. One more question: From looking at a picture of the back panel of the VTF-3 HO it doesn't appear that two of the same sub can be hooked together as it only has one left and right RCA port. How would that work if I wanted to connect two?

[rossandwendy]

Music is definitely not a priority. Movies is the main priority. My room is also pretty large at 30x20 feet with a 16 foot ceiling at its highest point in the middle. With those things in mind does your opinion change at all? Wouldn't the PB12-NSD/2 be better than the VTF-3 MK3 simply because it has dual woofers whereas the MK3 only has one? With two subs I'd be getting 4 woofers going with SVS or just 2 with HSU. And from what I'm hearing the more woofers the better because my room is so big.

Reasons why I'm leaning towards the PB12-NSD/2:
1. Better looking case design
2. Dual woofers
3. More comprehensive website (usually tends to mean they will be quicker at answering questions and more legit if that matters)

Reasons why I might go with the VTF-3 MK3:
1. Everyone is saying that it's a great subwoofer and it has tons of output
2. $250 cheaper than the PB12-NSD/2

I completely agree with what cyberbri just wrote. Make sure you read Craigsub's tests before you make your final decision.

Two SVS woofers vs. 1 HSU woofer does not tell the whole story, nor does amp power - the efficiency of the driver itself makes a huge difference. My PB12-NSD woofer requires a much higher volume setting (both sub control and receiver trim) to be properly calibrated with Avia at 85db then compared to my VTF-3 MK3 which requires very little volume to get to that same calibration point, so the HSU is more efficient and thus there is a ton more real-world dynamic headroom (with less audible distortion I must say) even in a nearly 7000 cu. ft. space as my listening sessions have proven to my ear.

As cited (I believe) earlier in this thread, an upcoming professional review shows the 3MK3 producing more output at the 20hz benchmark than the best SVS Ultra driver, even without Turbo module. Combined with Craigsub's and others' listening evaluations, it's clear that HSU has wrought something pretty amazing at bargain prices with both the HO and MK3 versions of the VTF-3.

It will be interesting to see what kind of performance increase SVS gets with their new 13" Ultra model that is supposed to be released sometime this year. This competition between two solid sub manufacturers is great for us all :)

[cyberbri]

So here's the big question: Would (2) HSU VTF-3 HO subs crank out gut wrenching bass even in a room the size of mine (30x20 with 16 foot ceiling)?


Yes, especially with the "Turbo" attachments. Although the looks of the Turbo may turn some people off.

Also, is the VTF-3 HO the most powerful sub HSU makes? Their website doesn't seem to show much of anything. One more question: From looking at a picture of the back panel of the VTF-3 HO it doesn't appear that two of the same sub can be hooked together as it only has one left and right RCA port. How would that work if I wanted to connect two?


Yes, the HO is the most powerful sub they make.

To run two subs at once, you split the output from the receiver with a Y-splitter. If you can afford that much sub, you'll probably want to get a Behringer Feedback Destroyer eq ($100, requires some manual testing and technical knowledge) or a Velodyne SMS-1 eq (about $700 I think, but comes with mic and OSD+software to eq in real-time). Both of these allow you to hook up dual subs, on top of eq'ing the frequency response to be flat or however you want it. The acoustics in most rooms will give you big dips and peaks, so lots of people eq (and add "bass traps" or room treatments) to let their subs live up to their true potential.

[Denon2807]

Yes, especially with the "Turbo" attachments. Although the looks of the Turbo may turn some people off.

Yes, the HO is the most powerful sub they make.

To run two subs at once, you split the output from the receiver with a Y-splitter. If you can afford that much sub, you'll probably want to get a Behringer Feedback Destroyer eq ($100, requires some manual testing and technical knowledge) or a Velodyne SMS-1 eq (about $700 I think, but comes with mic and OSD+software to eq in real-time). Both of these allow you to hook up dual subs, on top of eq'ing the frequency response to be flat or however you want it. The acoustics in most rooms will give you big dips and peaks, so lots of people eq (and add "bass traps" or room treatments) to let their subs live up to their true potential.

Not a fan of how the HO sub looks with the "Turbo" attachment so I'm probably going to pass on that. Thanks for all the info. I think you've convinced me to buy (2) HSU VTF3 HO subs now. Is the equalizer really needed? Because if I'm spending $2K for these two subs I really don't have the budget to afford an equalizer right now considering I don't have a lot of technical knowledge and would have to buy the SMS-1. My system won't be devastated without equalization, will it?

As far as cables go is this a suitable subwoofer cable:

http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-PureAV-Subwoofer-Cable-25/dp/B0001XGQTA/sr=8-1/qid=1167864617/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-6342582-1317562?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

Will this work for my Y-spliter (already have one of these in the cable bin):

http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Cable-ILJRY-1-Interlink-Y-Adaptor/dp/B00006346W/sr=1-15/qid=1167864633/ref=sr_1_15/104-6342582-1317562?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

Or should I buy this one?:

http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Cable-Y-2F-Y-Adaptor-Females/dp/B00003CWA3/sr=1-20/qid=1167864633/ref=sr_1_20/104-6342582-1317562?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

One more thing: Where do I buy the VTF HO subs from? Are they available on HSU's website as I don't see them.

[cyberbri]

Great! No, you don't need equalization. At the very least you need an SPL meter and the Avia setup disc to calibrate the subs - and especially to integrate them both into the system. It takes a little extra care with 2. Down the road you can always add an eq if you feel you need it.

Without the Turbos that's $1800 for 2. You order them from www.hsuresearch.com. Click on VTF-3 HO and look at the right side of the screen for "buy now" or whatever.

Those cables will work fine. It's best to have extra cable in case you want to play with placement. You can get by with a short one coming out of the receiver, split it, and then run it to the subs - assuming you have them one in each front corner or something.

[Denon2807]

Great! No, you don't need equalization. At the very least you need an SPL meter and the Avia setup disc to calibrate the subs - and especially to integrate them both into the system. It takes a little extra care with 2. Down the road you can always add an eq if you feel you need it.

Without the Turbos that's $1800 for 2. You order them from www.hsuresearch.com. Click on VTF-3 HO and look at the right side of the screen for "buy now" or whatever.

Those cables will work fine. It's best to have extra cable in case you want to play with placement. You can get by with a short one coming out of the receiver, split it, and then run it to the subs - assuming you have them one in each front corner or something.

What's an SPL meter, where do I buy the Avia setup disc and how do I use it all? Keep in mind I don't have much technical knowledge with speakers, computers though, yes, and if it's not easy to do I'm not sure I'll be able to do it.

Also, any chance HSU might update the VTF-3 HO anytime soon? I'd hate to buy it and then a month later they release an update for it.

[cschang]

Also, any chance HSU might update the VTF-3 HO anytime soon? I'd hate to buy it and then a month later they release an update for it.
Wouldn't you think the same way of the SVS?

[cyberbri]

The HO just came out, and the previous models had been as-is for at least a few years, so you're safe there.

An SPL meter is a meter that measures SPL or sound pressure level. Basically it lets you measure the volume of each speaker and subwoofer so you can set them to the same volume level. If some of your speakers are louder or quieter than the rest, it won't sound right.
This is one most people seem to use:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103667&cp=&origkw=SPL+Meter&kw=spl+meter&parentPage=search

And if you are on Netflix you can rent Avia from there. Otherwise you can get it from Amazon I believe.


BTW, what kind of receiver and speakers do you have? Denon and Klipsch, I assume? What models?

[Juan]

You can buy an SPL meter at your local Radio Shack for about $40.00. You should be able to find AVIA online.

[Denon2807]

The HO just came out, and the previous models had been as-is for at least a few years, so you're safe there.

An SPL meter is a meter that measures SPL or sound pressure level. Basically it lets you measure the volume of each speaker and subwoofer so you can set them to the same volume level. If some of your speakers are louder or quieter than the rest, it won't sound right.
This is one most people seem to use:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103667&cp=&origkw=SPL+Meter&kw=spl+meter&parentPage=search

And if you are on Netflix you can rent Avia from there. Otherwise you can get it from Amazon I believe.

BTW, what kind of receiver and speakers do you have? Denon and Klipsch, I assume? What models?

I have a Denon 2807 and the Klipsch RF-62 Home Theater System but with the RC-64 center channel instead of the RC-62. Doesn't my Denon with it's auto calibration using the included microphone do whatever I'd be doing with the SPL meter?

[Denon2807]

Bummer: I just spoke with someone at HSU to see if they could offer me any kind of a deal if I ordered two VTF-3 HO's from them and they said the best they could do is 5% off. In comparison, SVS offered me 10% off which is equivalant to free shipping. If HSU would be willing to offer free shipping it'd be a done deal. :)

[cyberbri]

The HSUs are just better values to begin with.


And I'm not sure how much of a calibration the 2807 does. Owners can help you out there as to how reliable and close it will get you.

[Denon2807]

The HSUs are just better values to begin with.

And I'm not sure how much of a calibration the 2807 does. Owners can help you out there as to how reliable and close it will get you.

From what I can tell it does a pretty thorough job. I had to place the included mic in 5 different listening positions so that it could calibrate. Knowing this do I still need to buy a SPL meter? Also, what are all the switches on the back of the VTF-3 HO for? Like "Crossover Frequency" and "Phase." It's all oh so confusing. :o

[cyberbri]

I'm sure it's thorough. But sometimes the results the auto-calibration programs come up with aren't accurate when checked manually. So whether or not your Denon does a good job of it, I don't know.


And you'll want to do a crash-course on sub calibration before those bad boys arrive. Unfortunately I no longer have the big list of links I used to, thanks to a crashed hard drive. And I don't have time to write it all out at the moment.

I'm sure some other people can point you to some subwoofer basics.

[rossandwendy]

Not a fan of how the HO sub looks with the "Turbo" attachment so I'm probably going to pass on that. Thanks for all the info. I think you've convinced me to buy (2) HSU VTF3 HO subs now.

Don't worry about not having the Turbo - the HO and MK3 are still freaking amazing without it! As I've mentioned I am actually preferring the sound of my 3MK3 without Turbo as it is more muscular especially in the mid-bass. And you get a little more maximum SPL output without it which you will be glad to have in your large room.

EDIT: to clarify my above comment, you get a little more max SPL in the frequencies above 20hz without Turbo (mid and upper bass slam excells), but of course with Turbo you're in max extension mode and dynamic output at 20hz and below is greater.

[Denon2807]

OK, It's done! Just ordered a PB12-Plus/2 in Rosewood from SVS and a MBM-12 from HSU. I leave for CES on Monday and hopefully both will be waiting at my door for me when I return on Friday. Can't wait! :D

Thanks so much for all of your help guys. Especially you cyberbri and rossandwendy. I'll be sure to let you all know how these two subs work out for me.

[cyberbri]

Congrats and have fun at CES!

[rossandwendy]

OK, It's done! Just ordered a PB12-Plus/2 in Rosewood from SVS and a MBM-12 from HSU. I leave for CES on Monday and hopefully both will be waiting at my door for me when I return on Friday. Can't wait! :D

Thanks so much for all of your help guys. Especially you cyberbri and rossandwendy. I'll be sure to let you all know how these two subs work out for me.

Congratulations Denon2807, you will be set for some serious quality bass with those two pieces! The MBM12 placed nearfield should provide excellent visceral slam for the mid/upper bass, and I think you will be glad you upgraded to the Plus series SVS rather than the NSD model.

[Run4Cuvr]

will the VTF-3 MK3 be overkill in a 12X12X10 room? I am trying to round out my 7.1 set up.

[jephdood]

If you have the space and the funds, is there such a thing as overkill? That's what the gain knob is for. :)

[Run4Cuvr]

If you have the space and the funds, is there such a thing as overkill? That's what the gain knob is for. :)

Thanks for the sound advice. I ordered it yesterday :D

[Run4Cuvr]

Thanks for the sound advice. I ordered it yesterday :D

Like I posted in another thread...I wish my current sub was black so I could claim that it grew. :)

[rossandwendy]

Like I posted in another thread...I wish my current sub was black so I could claim that it grew. :)

Ah, so you're a man who finds it is sometimes better to ask for forgiveness instead of permission ;)

[JEFFREY GTS]

So how is your HSU sounding with a little more play time with it? Have you been using it without the turbo?

[rossandwendy]

So how is your HSU sounding with a little more play time with it? Have you been using it without the turbo?

Still loving the VTF-3mk3, especially its musicality, and am enjoying both max output and max extension w/turbo modes now depending on my mood. On the train arrival scene near the beginning of The Polar Express, with turbo the sound was so natural and realistic I swore a steam train had just pulled into the living room! Depending on the DVD the deeper extension of the Turbo can be nice, but on the other hand the additional dynamic headroom and slam of no Turbo/max output mode is rather addicting. Now I am starting to dream of two 3mk3's w/Turbos co-located for the best of both worlds, but quite sure the wife would freak out at the thought :eek:

If I am ever allowed to spend $2k or more on a sub in the future, a new design SVS Ultra with dual 13" drivers would also be highly intriguing...

[JEFFREY GTS]

Still loving the VTF-3mk3, especially its musicality, and am enjoying both max output and max extension w/turbo modes now depending on my mood. On the train arrival scene near the beginning of The Polar Express, with turbo the sound was so natural and realistic I swore a steam train had just pulled into the living room! Depending on the DVD the deeper extension of the Turbo can be nice, but on the other hand the additional dynamic headroom and slam of no Turbo/max output mode is rather addicting. Now I am starting to dream of two 3mk3's w/Turbos co-located for the best of both worlds, but quite sure the wife would freak out at the thought :eek:

If I am ever allowed to spend $2k or more on a sub in the future, a new design SVS Ultra with dual 13" drivers would also be highly intriguing...

That is quite the scene to demo subs. In fact that entire movie is reference material. Love it. The SVS PB12-NSD was also very good at producing some very good bass with that scene. That scene has never sounded as good. I love my SVS, is the HSU really that much better? You keep talking about the dynamic punch and slam in max output mode without turbo, that is what I feel that I am missing with the SVS. That punch you in the chest type of bass. So with that said, I want the best of both worlds, I want it to play pretty low but I also want it to slam pretty hard too. Does the HSU without turbo give you both?

[rossandwendy]

That is quite the scene to demo subs. In fact that entire movie is reference material. Love it. The SVS PB12-NSD was also very good at producing some very good bass with that scene. That scene has never sounded as good. I love my SVS, is the HSU really that much better? You keep talking about the dynamic punch and slam in max output mode without turbo, that is what I feel that I am missing with the SVS. That punch you in the chest type of bass. So with that said, I want the best of both worlds, I want it to play pretty low but I also want it to slam pretty hard too. Does the HSU without turbo give you both?

Yes, a truly great movie in all respects!

I hooked up the SVS again a couple days ago and started listening to music, and it did not remain in the room long - as far as musicality goes, to my ears, yes the HSU really is that much better. HSU built its reputation for many years on musical accuracy which is why they made the coveted (and snobbish) Stereophile recommended components list.

What you have noticed regarding lack of mid/upper bass slam with the PB12-NSD is true and and is due to its design - everything about subs is a tradeoff (except for possibly the ultra expensive high-end units) and with the PB12-NSD SVS chose to go for a fixed 18hz tune on this particular model and this automatically reduces its dynamic capability in the mid/upper bass, whereas HSU went with a variable tune so at the 22hz max output mode, coupled with two 4" ports instead of the single one on the SVS, the VTF-3mk3 definitely has a punchier, more dynamic sound, in addition to being more articulate and with less distortion to my ears. And when you want the 18hz tune for certain situations, you just flip the switch and pop in the port plug or the Turbo and now you have the deeper stuff (but with a bit less mid-bass dynamics).

You will be hard pressed to find a single sub under $2k that can do both ultra-deep extension and mid-bass slam simultaneously - both SVS And HSU talk on their websites about the compromises of the various models regarding hitting hard vs. going deep. Having two co-located subs adds 6db more headroom across the sub's entire frequency response so seems to be a popular way to go for people who want it all (and to my detriment, I do :D ).

EDIT: I forgot to mention that HSU's new MBM-12 may be a great solution for achieving both goals. With it I could place the 3mk3 w/Turbo in the front corner where I am getting max efficiency in the lowest frequencies, then cross over to the MBM12 placed nearield where my listening couch would be literally rocked with mid to upper bass waves from an extremely lightweight and dynamic 12" driver designed just for such purposes. The 3HO with MBM12 would be even a bit better.

[rossandwendy]

So with that said, I want the best of both worlds, I want it to play pretty low but I also want it to slam pretty hard too. Does the HSU without turbo give you both?

To answer this exact question more specifically, the 3mk3 in max output mode comes pretty close, with extremely strong measured output in my room from 22hz on up. It's still decent at 20hz but drops off rapidly after that. The max extension w/Turbo mode digs into those handful of mostly inaudible frequencies below 20hz (strong down to 16 or 17hz in my room) and depending on the DVD content they can add a hard to define sense of space, ambience, realism, and subtle palpability if the recording has it to begin with.

I should add that according to my test tone measurements with both the PB12-NSD and the VTF-3mk3, even WITH Turbo in 18hz tune the HSU is giving much more fullness of response in the mid-bass than did the SVS in my room.

[wburtis]

Could you comment on the build quality of each fo the subs? PB-12 NSD and VTF-3Mk3.

[rossandwendy]

Could you comment on the build quality of each fo the subs? PB-12 NSD and VTF-3Mk3.

The HSU uses caps on the top and bottom (looks identical to the way the Ascend speakers are constructed) while the SVS has nicer seamless rounded edges (mine is in the white color). Both have a textured finish that seems rugged. Both cabinets appear solid to me after having dragged them all over my living room. The controls on the amp are just a bit nicer on the SVS. The huge rubber feet on the HSU are just a bit nicer to me.

Now when you move to the Plus and Ultra series SVS definitely wins out in cosmetics with their many beautiful wood veneer finishes available.

[Run4Cuvr]

Ah, so you're a man who finds it is sometimes better to ask for forgiveness instead of permission ;)

Yes. After losing a limb the first time...what's the worst that could happen?

[rossandwendy]

Yes. After losing a limb the first time...what's the worst that could happen?

:D

[Space 74]

After reading all of your posts with the words of wisdom ringing in my head "buy as much sub as you can afford" that i keep hearing i just ordered the Mk3 myself. I hold you all responsible for what my wife might do to me when she finds out.

So now that my budget is blown I need your help. I am building a complete HT around my Toshiba 720p DLP. So far the only thing i have purchased is the woofer and am needing to cut as many corners as I possibly can on the rest.

My room is appox. 12x25 if that helps and this will be used primarily for movies and gaming.

I have the following components to hook up:

DirectTV HD Tivo (HR10-250)
PS3
Xbox 360

I was wondering with such a big sub if the receivers experiencing the LFE (-10db) would even be an issue. IF so would the panny xr-57 be a good choice for me or should i go ahead and grab the Denon avr-2800 and really scrape by on the speakers for now and upgrade later. I only have about $1000 left over for this right now so please give me your ideas.

Thx

[rockemsockem]

You have $1000 left for speakers and receiver?

[pbc]

For now get 5 (or 7 if you want 7.1) of these, you will not get better performace at $80 per speaker. I'm surprised they have lasted this long (unless they are refurbs, but the site does not list this). Only issue may be using one as the "centre channel", but for $80 this is cheap!!!!????

The Panny xr-57 I believe has been mentioned as a steal as well for the price. Wouldn't spend too much there given the HDMI 1.3 formats coming out for new receivers in the next few months.

[Space 74]

Ok i stopped at a local chain store and got a good deal a pair of open box Klipsch B-2 and a C-2. I know a lot of people don't like the sound of these but from the few sets i get to here(rural area), I liked them a lot. I just need some cheap rears to get me through a year. By then hopefully i can upgrade to F-3 and put the B-2 in the back.

I would still like an opinion on the panny xr-57 in regards to the LFE issue and whether it should be a concern for me.