Will the HSU MBM work with any sub?

[JEFFREY GTS]

I just took the plunge on the SVS PB-12 NSD and am thrilled. I know it produces some very low bass. I am also concerned with the upper bass frequencies as well and see that HSU has a product that is supposed to cover that area. I was wondering how well it would work together with the SVS. Or is it specifically designed to work with HSU subs? That brings me to my next question. Would I be able to buy a PB-10 NSD and have that crossed over higher to get some more punch in the upper bass region?

[vitod]

According the HSU, the MBM is crossed to take FQ of 50hz-150hz and will work with any sub. The PB10 will do the upper region but will go down to 20hz and lower.......hey that's good! :D

[bfdtv]

I was wondering how well it would work together with the SVS.Yes, it will.

The PB12 drops off substantially after around 90Hz, so you should see a significant improvement with the addition of a MBM-12.

Would I be able to buy a PB-10 NSD and have that crossed over higher to get some more punch in the upper bass region?The PB10 and PB12 are both tuned to maximize their extension. They won't offer comparable output or response at higher frequencies relative to a woofer tuned specifically for mid-bass reproduction.

[jedi.night]

agreed,

I'm going to pair an MBM-12 with a SVS PC ULTRA.

Should get the MBM next week.

Will report back with what I find.

[JEFFREY GTS]

agreed,

I'm going to pair an MBM-12 with a SVS PC ULTRA.

Should get the MBM next week.

Will report back with what I find.

I am very interested in the outcome of the MBM.

[cschang]

According the HSU, the MBM is crossed to take FQ of 50hz-150hz and will work with any sub. The PB10 will do the upper region but will go down to 20hz and lower.......hey that's good! :D
But it is the sound quality in that region that should be compared, not just the fact that they both play it.

[JEFFREY GTS]

Also, talking with HSU, they recommended that I place it next to the couch. That is not an option for me. The only place I can put it is on top of my current SVS PB12 NSD. Will it defeat the purpose or will it be okay sitting on top of my other sub?

[jedi.night]

Also, talking with HSU, they recommended that I place it next to the couch. That is not an option for me. The only place I can put it is on top of my current SVS PB12 NSD. Will it defeat the purpose or will it be okay sitting on top of my other sub?


From what I've read that wouldn't be a problem. The only downfall is that you loose the punch that you would get from having it near field.

HSU recommends that the MBM be placed near field and the true Sub to be far field.
These are not set in stone. Dr. Hsu has stated that you can place the MBM between the mains or next to the True Sub.

If you have smaller sat's that don't go down below 80hz, then you have a dilemma or rather a choice of placing the MBM near field and risk localization (which depends on your taste, hearing a slight directionality from it doesn't bother me at all). Purists won't want to be able to localize the bass at all. ( reason being you would set the crossover higher than 80hz, most likely 100hz or 120hz to pair well with small sats.)


I'm running the MBM with a PC-Ultra and an Orb 5 speaker setup.
I'm crossing the MBM at 120hz (the orbs can be crossed at 80hz, but I'm going to give it a try at 120hz for a few days, 100hz and then 80hz.
The PC-Ultra in all cases will be handling 50hz on down, set in 16hz tune.
The beauty of the MBM is that it frees up some power on the Ultra since it will only be receiving the very Low LFE. Seems like it has even more punch now even though it had plenty of to spare even before introducing the MBM-12.

I have placed the MBM 12 behind the back left side ( if your back is facing the couch). It's a few feet from a corner in the room, my couch is a half circle shape.
The MBM port is facing away from the couch and towards the corner wall.

So far, I'm very impressed with the MBM and PC-Ultra combo. I haven't truly calibrated it yet with an SPL meter but I will in a week or so.
Just had to play with the gain on the MBM a bit, it's very sensitive and it does play the Mid-range loud if turned up to far. I only have it set just under 10 O'clock and it sounds great with a nice little rumble through the couch.
Crossed at 120hz, it is slightly locatable to my ears, but not enough to really bother me at all.
I will play with it some more and try lower crossovers and report back my opinions.

[cschang]

You should try and cross the Orbs even higher....they begin to roll off before 150hz. If you cross at 80hz, you will be missing a lot of information...localized or not.

[bfdtv]

I agree with curtis.

I would try setting your receiver to 140Hz or 160Hz and move the MBM-12 closer to the Orbs, if possible, so frequencies from 100-160Hz sound like they are coming from the speakers rather than the MBM.

[DreamCatcher]

From what I've read that wouldn't be a problem. The only downfall is that you loose the punch that you would get from having it near field.

HSU recommends that the MBM be placed near field and the true Sub to be far field.
These are not set in stone. Dr. Hsu has stated that you can place the MBM between the mains or next to the True Sub.

If you have smaller sat's that don't go down below 80hz, then you have a dilemma or rather a choice of placing the MBM near field and risk localization (which depends on your taste, hearing a slight directionality from it doesn't bother me at all). Purists won't want to be able to localize the bass at all. ( reason being you would set the crossover higher than 80hz, most likely 100hz or 120hz to pair well with small sats.)


I'm running the MBM with a PC-Ultra and an Orb 5 speaker setup.
I'm crossing the MBM at 120hz (the orbs can be crossed at 80hz, but I'm going to give it a try at 120hz for a few days, 100hz and then 80hz.
The PC-Ultra in all cases will be handling 50hz on down, set in 16hz tune.
The beauty of the MBM is that it frees up some power on the Ultra since it will only be receiving the very Low LFE. Seems like it has even more punch now even though it had plenty of to spare even before introducing the MBM-12.

I have placed the MBM 12 behind the back left side ( if your back is facing the couch). It's a few feet from a corner in the room, my couch is a half circle shape.
The MBM port is facing away from the couch and towards the corner wall.

So far, I'm very impressed with the MBM and PC-Ultra combo. I haven't truly calibrated it yet with an SPL meter but I will in a week or so.
Just had to play with the gain on the MBM a bit, it's very sensitive and it does play the Mid-range loud if turned up to far. I only have it set just under 10 O'clock and it sounds great with a nice little rumble through the couch.
Crossed at 120hz, it is slightly locatable to my ears, but not enough to really bother me at all.
I will play with it some more and try lower crossovers and report back my opinions.
Balancing the MBM-12 w/ your Ultra and with your mains is crucial!
When I first got the MBM-12 in my system with the 3HO Turbo, the mid-bass (MBM-12) was very localizable and sounded like crap. My first thought was, "this thing is going back to HSU"! It took me a couple hours of tweaking on the gain of each sub, processor and sub crossovers, and using the Velo SMS-1, to get the MBM-12 to blend with my 3HO sub/mains and listening room. My mains start rolling off around 60hz (the NHT M6s), but I've found crossing them over to the MBM-12 at around 85-110hz works best for my system. The MBM-12 has completely disappeared and I have it located right next to my main listening position.

Once you get the MBM-12 dialed in, the rewards are huge!
Mid-bass detail and slam have never sounded this good in my system!

dc

[bfdtv]

DreamCatcher,

How much would you say the SMS-1 helped in mating the MBM-12 with the 3HO in your room? Could you have done it without the SMS-1 with a bit more effort?

[DreamCatcher]

DreamCatcher,

How much would you say the SMS-1 helped in mating the MBM-12 with the 3HO in your room? Could you have done it without the SMS-1 with a bit more effort?
The SMS-1 is a great tool for getting the subs balanced but not essential.
A SPL meter and a bit of tweaking should give similar results.

dc

[SteveCallas]

The PB12 drops off substantially after around 90Hz, so you should see a significant improvement with the addition of a MBM-12.
Umm, you do realize that most speakers cross over to subs at 80hz, yes? The FR of his sub above 90hz is insignificant. This MBM unit would only serve a purpose if you have small bookshelves that can't hold their own to the crossover frequency.

The PB10 and PB12 are both tuned to maximize their extension. They won't offer comparable output or response at higher frequencies relative to a woofer tuned specifically for mid-bass reproduction.
What you are advocating is compression. I haven't seen any measurements of the PB12, but I have seen them on the PB10, and it is more than capable around the crossover region.

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/svs%20pb10%20max.png

But it is the sound quality in that region that should be compared, not just the fact that they both play it.
Yes, and tossing two additional filters into the mix - with their high probability for degraded transient response and low probability for nailing a flat FR - make it difficult to imagine it would sound better than a sub that can naturally handle its own in that region. I remember getting into a lengthy discussion about this product a while back (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=731537&highlight=hsu+midbass+filter).....well now we can finally see some actual in room results. Who's willing to post in room measurements with this unit in the chain? From the seat, take a sweep of each unit individually - speakers, MBM, and sub, then one with them all in play.

I contend that the better option is to get a second sub.

[Richard Mayer]

Umm, you do realize that most speakers cross over to subs at 80hz, yes? The FR of his sub above 90hz is insignificant. This MBM unit would only serve a purpose if you have small bookshelves that can't hold their own to the crossover frequency.

I wouldn't say that. For example the PB10 is capable of 100-105 dB levels in 50-100 Hz while the MBM-12 should do 110-115 dB. Higher headroom means better dynamics and lower distortion.

[SteveCallas]

But then I ask again, just as I did before, what is the point of greater dynamics and decreased distortion in a small bass range? Were you to buy a second identical subwoofer, you'd gain better dynamics and decreased distortion over the whole sub range - you'd also have a much easier time integrating it than you would a superwoofer. A logical goal would be to have a system that roughly maintains a given level of capability over all frequencies, not just bits and pieces.

[cschang]

But then I ask again, just as I did before, what is the point of greater dynamics and decreased distortion in a small bass range? Were you to buy a second identical subwoofer, you'd gain better dynamics and decreased distortion over the whole sub range - you'd also have a much easier time integrating it than you would a superwoofer. A logical goal would be to have a system that roughly maintains a given level of capability over all frequencies, not just bits and pieces.
Very good arguments, but also remember you also do not get a driver/sub specifically designed for 50hz on up, ease of use in nearfield placement(size), and cost.

Like you said, all speculation until experienced in practice.

[cyberbri]

My take is that it's like adding shakers. You put it near field (if possible) and the mid-bass gives you that kick while letting the main sub do the deeper stuff. Some of the larger subs already are for this purpose, and there are already people who let their big, big subs handle say below 30~40Hz down to 10~25Hz or so, with other subs handling the more audible bass.

[SteveCallas]

driver/sub specifically designed for 50hz on up
On up to what though? 80hz? 150hz? Subwoofers ARE specifically designed to handle up to 80hz....going down deep is the added bonus, not the other way around. If the mains aren't capable to 100hz or 80hz, then yeah, a superwoofer is a legitimate solution.

[cschang]

I believe on up to 150hz.

What kind of headroom do mains have below 150hz?

[JEFFREY GTS]

In regards to the placement of the MBM, I was told that that the optimum placement is near your seating position. And was told NOT to set it on top of your current sub, would the opposite left corner be okay?

[Richard Mayer]

But then I ask again, just as I did before, what is the point of greater dynamics and decreased distortion in a small bass range? Were you to buy a second identical subwoofer, you'd gain better dynamics and decreased distortion over the whole sub range - you'd also have a much easier time integrating it than you would a superwoofer. A logical goal would be to have a system that roughly maintains a given level of capability over all frequencies, not just bits and pieces.
Sure, second sub would be better, but I think that's not what HSU is trying to accomplish with the MBM-12. It was meant as a relatively cheap and small upgrade for your current system/sub. Let's wait what people think about it before crushing it...

[SteveCallas]

I'm not crushing it, I just think it has a very specific, limited use.

What kind of headroom do mains have below 150hz?
Depends on your mains. Most three ways don't cross over to the woofer(s) until 200-400hz.

[ggunnell]

In Colin Miller and Brian Florians' excellent article Miscellaneous Ramblings on Subwoofer Crossover Frequencies:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/feature-article-multiple-crossovers-9-2002.html

They mention 120Hz brickwalled as the top end of frequencies mixed to the LFE out.

Does anyone know the actual upper limit of LFE channel mix in commercial recordings?

[SteveCallas]

Unless I'm misunderstanding, you just answered your own question. The upper limit is 120hz.

[rockemsockem]

I wonder how two of these set under my bookshelf mains as bass bins would sound?

[jedi.night]

You should try and cross the Orbs even higher....they begin to roll off before 150hz. If you cross at 80hz, you will be missing a lot of information...localized or not.


Well, I decided to bust out the SPL meter to see just how far down the orbs go.

They don't really drop off until about 90hz, at least significantly.
But the problem is I have a MOD 2 center and that has a higher drop around 120hz and then goes back to normal and begins to drop off at around 90hz.
Weird, i expected it to peform better in the lower mid bass region, but it could be room acoustics.
Remember that the room is having an effect on the roll off of these orbs.

I don't think I will cross the MBM any lower than 120hz because of the inconsistency of my Center Orb.

I still have it place nearfield behind the couch.


I think steve has a point to a degree, This MBM is great for someone in my position with orbs.

I might try it in the front of the room under my Plasma TV. The orbs are above the TV. So it would be center under the center channel. And about 6 feet to the right of the PC-Ultra.

I will see how this sounds. Although I do enjoy the Punch I get from behind the couch. But like I said before, I have to keep the gain low, around 9am or it's too localizable.

I do like to run a nice house curve with my low end boosted.

I usually listen at around -20 on my HK, this is about 66dbs. So I often run the Ultra hot, at around 76-80 dbs.

[Peter Marcks]

The argument that the MBM only serves a purpose with bookshelf speakers is a fallacy in my opinion. The reality is that there are few loudspeakers that have the mid-bass headroom to match the MBM-12, let alone anything near $400. And even then, these loudspeakers don't get the benefit of being placed nearfield for reduced interaction with room.

The term "good enough" can mean almost anything. Some people may find it good enough to have about 105db at the listening position without output compression in the 50-100Hz region. The MBM-12 will give >120db at the listening position with virtually no output compression in this same range of frequencies. That is a huge difference no matter which way you look at it. Even a difference of 6-10db would be huge. Is that a limited range of frequencies? I don't think so. Looking at various waterfall charts that are floating around the internet, it seems that almost every movie has lots of activity and some very large dynamic peaks in the 50-80Hz mid-bass region. Also, obviously music is rich with information in this range of frequencies, while much less rich in content below about 25Hz.

A setup with dual VTF-3 HO + turbochargers would stand to seriously gain from a single MBM-12, which sells for a fraction of the cost of a single one of these subwoofers. A system with single VTF-3 HO + MBM-12 can do things that no quantity of VTF-3 HO's or other true subwoofers placed farfield in a corner handling the low/mid/upper bass can do, namely having a very high ratio of direct-to-reflected sound energy in the mid bass region for reduced room effects, in addition to having vanishing levels of intermodulation distortion between low and mid bass since the mid bass frequencies can no longer be modulated by the lower bass frequencies.

There's no doubt that adding a second true subwoofer will generally make a very large and noticeable improvement in performance, but it is certainly no substitute for the MBM.

[Peter Marcks]

From what I've read that wouldn't be a problem. The only downfall is that you loose the punch that you would get from having it near field.

HSU recommends that the MBM be placed near field and the true Sub to be far field.
These are not set in stone. Dr. Hsu has stated that you can place the MBM between the mains or next to the True Sub.

If you have smaller sat's that don't go down below 80hz, then you have a dilemma or rather a choice of placing the MBM near field and risk localization (which depends on your taste, hearing a slight directionality from it doesn't bother me at all). Purists won't want to be able to localize the bass at all. ( reason being you would set the crossover higher than 80hz, most likely 100hz or 120hz to pair well with small sats.)


I'm running the MBM with a PC-Ultra and an Orb 5 speaker setup.
I'm crossing the MBM at 120hz (the orbs can be crossed at 80hz, but I'm going to give it a try at 120hz for a few days, 100hz and then 80hz.
The PC-Ultra in all cases will be handling 50hz on down, set in 16hz tune.
The beauty of the MBM is that it frees up some power on the Ultra since it will only be receiving the very Low LFE. Seems like it has even more punch now even though it had plenty of to spare even before introducing the MBM-12.

I have placed the MBM 12 behind the back left side ( if your back is facing the couch). It's a few feet from a corner in the room, my couch is a half circle shape.
The MBM port is facing away from the couch and towards the corner wall.

So far, I'm very impressed with the MBM and PC-Ultra combo. I haven't truly calibrated it yet with an SPL meter but I will in a week or so.
Just had to play with the gain on the MBM a bit, it's very sensitive and it does play the Mid-range loud if turned up to far. I only have it set just under 10 O'clock and it sounds great with a nice little rumble through the couch.
Crossed at 120hz, it is slightly locatable to my ears, but not enough to really bother me at all.
I will play with it some more and try lower crossovers and report back my opinions.

I am very happy to hear that you have noticed an improvement in sound quality, jedi!

Would you say that the MBM-12 has [directly or indirectly] improved the sound quality of your system at all bass frequencies?

Thanks again

[Peter Marcks]

Once you get the MBM-12 dialed in, the rewards are huge!
Mid-bass detail and slam have never sounded this good in my system!

dc

That's what I predicted would happen, dc!!!

May I ask what other subwoofers you have tried in your home?

I am definitely humbled by the glowing remarks.

Sincerely,

[craigsub]

My experience with the MBM-12 has been pretty interesting - The current location of the VTF-3 HO is 7 feet from my listening position, with the MBM directly behind the listening position.

The VTF-3 HO's crossover is set to 50 Hz, and both the VTF-3 HO and the MBM-12 are getting a separate feed from a Velodyne SMS-1. The signal coming from the SMS-1 is the normal 80 Hz signal.

The combination is a small step better than the VTF-3 HO on its own.

The next step is going to be placing the VTF-3 HO's in the front corner, about 20 feet from me, with a single MBM-12 in the listening position directly behind me.

This location would please my bride, as the big guys would be hidden.

I have never liked the subs that far from me, as a lot of clarity is lost. It will be interesting to find out how the MBM does in this set up.

As an aside ... when the DIY guys start building MBM's, some members will heartily approve ... :D

[Peter Marcks]

Craig, if you don't mind, may I see a rough sketch of your room? Thank you very much!

[gbondioli]

The combination is a small step better than the VTF-3 HO on its own.
If that's the case I'm wondering if it might be a waste --for the sake of my 1st row seating-- if I have a VTF-3 HO in the front corner (11 ft away from 1st row seats) and an MBM behind the 2nd row seating (about 6 ft behind the 1st row). My amateur guess is that the 2nd row would get the best low- and mid-bass. But would that setup totally ruin the mid-bass slam for the 1st row? I mean, the HO would not be hitting those frequencies, and the MBM would no longer be nearfield. Would I be better off with just a VTF-3 HO playing all the way up to 80hz and skipping the MBM?

[SteveCallas]

The reality is that there are few loudspeakers that have the mid-bass headroom to match the MBM-12, let alone anything near $400.
Your argument is flawed. Why don't you guys go ahead and build a UBM (upper bass module) as well then, to cover from 150hz-400hz, cause iy would have more dynamic headroom than your speakers. Then you can build a LMM (low mid module), cause it would have more dynamic headroom than your speakers. You can keep going - why stop at midbass? Why boost the capability disproportionately high in one area but leave it lacking in another? Again, if you have mains that rolloff early, I see the value in your product, but only in that case.

And even then, these loudspeakers don't get the benefit of being placed nearfield for reduced interaction with room.
But an increase in phase issues, an increase in being able to localize the bass, and increased difficulty in getting an overall smooth response.

There's no doubt that adding a second true subwoofer will generally make a very large and noticeable improvement in performance, but it is certainly no substitute for the MBM.
Correct, cause a "substitute" would mean they are on equal ground. A second sub would actually be much better.

[Peter Marcks]

Not necessarily gbondioli. There are a couple different options you could pursue with your setup. One, you could try placing an MBM-12 (or multiple MBM-12's) behind the first row of seating, so that the module is between the first and second row of seats. An alternative would be to use the MBM-12 up front in between the main speakers. Even without nearfield placement, you would still have higher mid-bass headroom and lower intermodulation distortion. Send a sketch of your room to Dr. Hsu just to get his opinion too.

[craigsub]

Craig, if you don't mind, may I see a rough sketch of your room? Thank you very much!

Peter, Here is a picture of the room. The room itself is 25x21 feet ... 8.5 foot ceilings, with the sub in the corner behind my listening position.

The front location I mentioned would be to the left of the cabinetry shown here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/upstairssitting.jpg

Here is a quick (and ugly) sketch. The 4 larger "boxes" in the room are the sofa and 3 chairs. The top of the pic is the front of the room. The 2 smaller boxes are the current locations of the VTF-3 HO and the MBM-12, with the smaller MBM right behind me. At the bottom right of the pic, the darker, REALLY badly drawn lines are supposed to be doors. The room can be sealed.

As a bonus, for $5 I will paint anyone's pic here. For $10, I will leave you alone. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/room.jpg

[DreamCatcher]

Your argument is flawed. Why don't you guys go ahead and build a UBM (upper bass module) as well then, to cover from 150hz-400hz, cause iy would have more dynamic headroom than your speakers. Then you can build a LMM (low mid module), cause it would have more dynamic headroom than your speakers. You can keep going - why stop at midbass? Why boost the capability disproportionately high in one area but leave it lacking in another? Again, if you have mains that rolloff early, I see the value in your product, but only in that case.


But an increase in phase issues, an increase in being able to localize the bass, and increased difficulty in getting an overall smooth response.


Correct, cause a "substitute" would mean they are on equal ground. A second sub would actually be much better.
Steve, Have you tried the MBM-12 or are you just talking out of your *** :)
Unless you've actually tried something I don't see how you can make a judgement/statement based on.... on what? I don't know?
You may in fact be right, but why bother with an opinion based on nothing.
Before going off on something, pick up one and give it a spin, it may surprise you, or at least give some validity to your opinion.


dc

[Peter Marcks]

Your argument is flawed. Why don't you guys go ahead and build a UBM (upper bass module) as well then, to cover from 150hz-400hz, cause iy would have more dynamic headroom than your speakers. Then you can build a LMM (low mid module), cause it would have more dynamic headroom than your speakers. You can keep going - why stop at midbass? Why boost the capability disproportionately high in one area but leave it lacking in another? Again, if you have mains that rolloff early, I see the value in your product, but only in that case.

It doesn't make much sense to create something for 150-400Hz, for obvious reasons. Nearfield placement for these frequencies would also be senseless. There is also no such thing as boosting things disproportionately high. The more headroom, the better. It would be much better to have 120db in the mid-bass and 110db in the deep bass before the onset of output compression, vs 112db in the mid-bass and 110db in the deep bass.


But an increase in phase issues, an increase in being able to localize the bass, and increased difficulty in getting an overall smooth response.

Using a crossover at or below 90Hz for the nearfield module will mean that localization is a complete non-issue. In fact, a smooth and flat response in the mid bass at the listening position becomes much easier and more likely because of the reduced room reflections.


Correct, cause a "substitute" would mean they are on equal ground. A second sub would actually be much better.

Adding a second true sub placed farfield would still not be as desireable a solution for handling mid-bass. Also, a second true subwoofer such as VTF-3 HO would tend to cost many times more than the module.

[Peter Marcks]

Peter, Here is a picture of the room. The room itself is 25x21 feet ... 8.5 foot ceilings, with the sub in the corner behind my listening position.

The front location I mentioned would be to the left of the cabinetry shown here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/upstairssitting.jpg

Here is a quick (and ugly) sketch. The 4 larger "boxes" in the room are the sofa and 3 chairs. The top of the pic is the front of the room. The 2 smaller boxes are the current locations of the VTF-3 HO and the MBM-12, with the smaller MBM right behind me. At the bottom right of the pic, the darker, REALLY badly drawn lines are supposed to be doors. The room can be sealed.

As a bonus, for $5 I will paint anyone's pic here. For $10, I will leave you alone. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/room.jpg

Good job Craig, certainly good enough to get an idea of the room layout.

What are your impressions when the MBM-12 is directly behind the primary listening position in the center of the couch?

Your room is perfect for nearfield positioning of a true subwoofer. The room is >20 feet deep (so little need to worry about cancellation from two different sound pressure waves, one after another). Also, the primary listening position is near the back wall, which is also good because you can position the true subwoofer in the [back] corner. It will be interesting to read about your impressions with the true subwoofer up front.

[DreamCatcher]

That's what I predicted would happen, dc!!!

May I ask what other subwoofers you have tried in your home?

I am definitely humbled by the glowing remarks.

Sincerely,
Let me see, other subs I've had in my room :eek:
I'll just go back two years:
Revel B15s (2) - stacked in corner
SVS Ultra
SVS PB12 Ultra/2
SVS 20-39 PC+ (12.3 driver) (2) one in each corner
SVS PB12-NSD (2) stacked in corner
JL Audio Fathom f113, sold to local friend who wanted two f113s, while I wait for the Gotham :)
and now...........
HSU VTF-3HO w/Turbo + MBM-12
I'll post some pictures of SMS-1 frequency sweep with just the 3HO/Turbo,
with just the MBM-12, with just mains (NHT M6s) and combined sweep results.
Also tomorrow I'm going for max (or as close to max as the foundation will take :D ) SPL readings on the Darla glass tapping scene from Finding Neno.
Hopefully the subs, and foundation, will come out in one piece.

dc

[craigsub]

Good job Craig, certainly good enough to get an idea of the room layout.

What are your impressions when the MBM-12 is directly behind the primary listening position in the center of the couch?

Your room is perfect for nearfield positioning of a true subwoofer. The room is >20 feet deep (so little need to worry about cancellation from two different sound pressure waves, one after another). Also, the primary listening position is near the back wall, which is also good because you can position the true subwoofer in the [back] corner. It will be interesting to read about your impressions with the true subwoofer up front.

Peter, The MBM-12 sounds fantastic. The problem is, so does the VTF-3 HO without the MBM in the mix. I have never been satisfied with the bass performance of a system when the sub is in the front of the room, so that will be the real test.

The way I have the unit running now is not really what Dr. Hsu had in mind for it, with the main sub so close.

I hope to move 2 HO's up front tomorrow, recalibrate, and fire away.

I'll let you know ... :)

[Peter Marcks]

Craig, thanks for the feedback. I would be interested in getting Dr. Hsu's opinion on placement/setup in such a room. Send him an email and we'll see what he says.

Sincerely,

[Peter Marcks]

Let me see, other subs I've had in my room :eek:
I'll just go back two years:
Revel B15s (2) - stacked in corner
SVS Ultra
SVS PB12 Ultra/2
SVS 20-39 PC+ (12.3 driver) (2) one in each corner
SVS PB12-NSD (2) stacked in corner
JL Audio Fathom f113, sold to local friend who wanted two f113s, while I wait for the Gotham :)
and now...........
HSU VTF-3HO w/Turbo + MBM-12
I'll post some pictures of SMS-1 frequency sweep with just the 3HO/Turbo,
with just the MBM-12, with just mains (NHT M6s) and combined sweep results.
Also tomorrow I'm going for max (or as close to max as the foundation will take :D ) SPL readings on the Darla glass tapping scene from Finding Neno.
Hopefully the subs, and foundation, will come out in one piece.

dc

Best wishes to you and your neighbors, dc :D

[SteveCallas]

Steve, Have you tried the MBM-12 or are you just talking out of your ***
Unless you've actually tried something I don't see how you can make a judgement/statement based on.... on what? I don't know?
You may in fact be right, but why bother with an opinion based on nothing.

Based on nothing? :confused: What if your neighbor took the battery out of yor car and then told you. Would you know that your car wouldn't start, or would you be talking out of your *** until you actually tried starting the car? In audio, yes, many times it's necessary to actually listen to things to form an opinion. At the same time, you can't disregard logic and testing that has been conducted to this point.

Before going off on something, pick up one and give it a spin, it may surprise you, or at least give some validity to your opinion.
Ok, I'll get a MBM if you eat a rubber tire - believe me, the rubber tire tastes great, despite what logic would dictate. Don't make up your mind until you've actually tried eating the rubber tire. Now I know that's a lot of sarcasm, and I'm not trying to be spiteful or anything like that, but I'm just showing you why your point is invalid.

It doesn't make much sense to create something for 150-400Hz, for obvious reasons. Nearfield placement for these frequencies would also be senseless
Why, because they are locatable? It may be surprising to you, but so is 150hz. The common frequency at which sounds become unlocalizable is 80hz - that's why THX chose that frequency. Let's be consistant. Hey, how about we just all wear headphones?

There is also no such thing as boosting things disproportionately high. The more headroom, the better
More headroom in one range and less in another, lower range, if getting used, is essentially a form of output compression, which is disproportionate output capability.

It would be much better to have 120db in the mid-bass and 110db in the deep bass before the onset of output compression, vs 112db in the mid-bass and 110db in the deep bass.
If you are reaching levels of output compression, a band aid won't solve the problem. You need more capable gear all around.

In fact, a smooth and flat response in the mid bass at the listening position becomes much easier and more likely because of the reduced room reflections.
We shall see.

Adding a second true sub placed farfield would still not be as desireable a solution for handling mid-bass
Up to what frequency? In the statement just before this one, you were talking about crossing it over at 90hz. I've said it consistantly, if your mains rolloff early, then yes, a superwoofer is a fair idea. If your mains can handle themselves down to 80hz, and your 50-80hz region is lacking, then so is your <50hz region.

I know it's your new product and you are defending it, and I don't mean to be negative, but rather than suggesting this superwoofer would be advantageous to every setup, be straight up and acknowledge that it's purpose is for systems with mains that wimp out early.

[DreamCatcher]

Based on nothing? :confused: What if your neighbor took the battery out of yor car and then told you. Would you know that your car wouldn't start, or would you be talking out of your *** until you actually tried starting the car? In audio, yes, many times it's necessary to actually listen to things to form an opinion. At the same time, you can't disregard logic and testing that has been conducted to this point.


Ok, I'll get a MBM if you eat a rubber tire - believe me, the rubber tire tastes great, despite what logic would dictate. Don't make up your mind until you've actually tried eating the rubber tire. Now I know that's a lot of sarcasm, and I'm not trying to be spiteful or anything like that, but I'm just showing you why your point is invalid.


Why, because they are locatable? It may be surprising to you, but so is 150hz. The common frequency at which sounds become unlocalizable is 80hz - that's why THX chose that frequency. Let's be consistant. Hey, how about we just all wear headphones?


More headroom in one range and less in another, lower range, if getting used, is essentially a form of output compression, which is disproportionate output capability.


If you are reaching levels of output compression, a band aid won't solve the problem. You need more capable gear all around.


We shall see.


Up to what frequency? In the statement just before this one, you were talking about crossing it over at 90hz. I've said it consistantly, if your mains rolloff early, then yes, a superwoofer is a fair idea. If your mains can handle themselves down to 80hz, and your 50-80hz region is lacking, then so is your <50hz region.

I know it's your new product and you are defending it, and I don't mean to be negative, but rather than suggesting this superwoofer would be advantageous to every setup, be straight up and acknowledge that it's purpose is for systems with mains that wimp out early.
WOW..... Unbelievable :o
Please just forget I responded in anyway to one of your post.

dc

[Peter Marcks]

Laughing out loud, this is getting ridiculous. Now the argument is that the mid-bass module is reducing headroom in the deep bass (as opposed to increasing headroom in the mid bass), and that only "wimpy" mains apply. Quite laughable, let's move on everyone. I'm looking forward to hearing more from people who actually have the unit in their possession.

[craigsub]

Tonight, we are going to try the MBM next to the HO. And Peter, good point, let's stick to opinions from those who have the MBM in his system, and try to answer legit questions for those who are truly interested in its possibilities.

[Chaosphere482]

A couple questions...

How long is the wait for an MBM?

Also, how do you guys have it wired?

I have a PC Ultra and I find these results interesting. My couch is very close to the back wall of my room so I was wondering if there is a minimum distance I would want to keep the MBM from the back wall if I were to place it by my couch. What crossover between the MBM and mains (tower with dual 10's) would be recomended?

Thanks

[jedi.night]

I am very happy to hear that you have noticed an improvement in sound quality, jedi!

Would you say that the MBM-12 has [directly or indirectly] improved the sound quality of your system at all bass frequencies?

Thanks again


Peter,
So far so good, I have gotten it to blend nicely with the PC-ultra from around 12-16hz all the way until about 100hz. No dips or peaks around 50hz where I thought there would be problems.
My one concern is that there is a dip around 110-120HZ, even though the orbs are crossed at 120hz (the entire system is). I really can't cross them any higher because my HK avr only allows 200hz as the next step.

My room setup is similar to craigs. but with the entire right side opened up.
SVS is in the front Left corner. MBM is behind my couch. My couch is half moon shaped and back against the wall.
Front to back is 12 feet deep.

I'm thinking of moving the SVS to the Back left corner behind couch, and placing the MBM behind the opposite side of the couch, where the room is opened up, about 7 feet across to the right of the Ultra.


But I'm going to do some more testing in it's current position with a better reference tone CD, I was using Avia, but the sweeps are too fast.

I will report back later today with more opinions.

[jedi.night]

A couple questions...

How long is the wait for an MBM?

Also, how do you guys have it wired?

I have a PC Ultra and I find these results interesting. My couch is very close to the back wall of my room so I was wondering if there is a minimum distance I would want to keep the MBM from the back wall if I were to place it by my couch. What crossover between the MBM and mains (tower with dual 10's) would be recomended?

Thanks

Where do you have the Ultra at?

[rockemsockem]

I wonder how two of these set under my bookshelf mains as bass bins would sound?

Would there be any phase cancellation issues or other problems with this type of setup.

would 2 MBM add even more dynamic headroom?

[Chaosphere482]

Essentially square room (boo), 15' x 14' x 10' ceilings. Looking at the TV from the couch I have it placed in the front right corner. I have a doorway sized opening front left and another opening on the right side wall adjacent to the couch. Neither opening is closable.

[jedi.night]

Essentially square room (boo), 15' x 14' x 10' ceilings. Looking at the TV from the couch I have it placed in the front right corner. I have a doorway sized opening front left and another opening on the right side wall adjacent to the couch. Neither opening is closable.

Mine (PC-Ultra) is in the Front left corner. no openings.

I havent tried the ultra in the back of the room behind the couch area, that's where the MBM is.

But maybe I will. Craig seems to like Sub placement behind the listening area.

[bbrc]

I have pb+2 let say i get mbm give it 50 to80 region.
Would this give my pb+2 more headroom more dynamic?

[cschang]

Peter,
So far so good, I have gotten it to blend nicely with the PC-ultra from around 12-16hz all the way until about 100hz. No dips or peaks around 50hz where I thought there would be problems.
My one concern is that there is a dip around 110-120HZ, even though the orbs are crossed at 120hz (the entire system is). I really can't cross them any higher because my HK avr only allows 200hz as the next step.

My room setup is similar to craigs. but with the entire right side opened up.
SVS is in the front Left corner. MBM is behind my couch. My couch is half moon shaped and back against the wall.
Front to back is 12 feet deep.

I'm thinking of moving the SVS to the Back left corner behind couch, and placing the MBM behind the opposite side of the couch, where the room is opened up, about 7 feet across to the right of the Ultra.


But I'm going to do some more testing in it's current position with a better reference tone CD, I was using Avia, but the sweeps are too fast.

I will report back later today with more opinions.
The dip at 120hz is certainly due to the Orbs, they begin to rolloff at close to 180-200hz. Cross them over higher and then take some measurements.

[JEFFREY GTS]

This might sound like a stupid question but how do you crossover your speakers? I have never seen a menu on my receiver to crossover my speakers. I read my manual yesterday and it just stated that if you select subwoofer yes, then all frequencies 80hz and below are sent to my sub and everything else is sent to my mains. Am I missing something here? Do I need to get some kind of seperate crossover unit? And I am very interested with everybody trying out the new MBM, I think it is really going to add to my system. Now I am trying to decide if I want to keep my SVS or try out the new HSU VTF-3 MK3. What do you guys think?

[cschang]

This might sound like a stupid question but how do you crossover your speakers? I have never seen a menu on my receiver to crossover my speakers. I read my manual yesterday and it just stated that if you select subwoofer yes, then all frequencies 80hz and below are sent to my sub and everything else is sent to my mains. Am I missing something here? Do I need to get some kind of seperate crossover unit? And I am very interested with everybody trying out the new MBM, I think it is really going to add to my system. Now I am trying to decide if I want to keep my SVS or try out the new HSU VTF-3 MK3. What do you guys think?
What receiver do you have? You probably have one that does not offer a selectable crossover point.

Most middle of the road AVR's have selectable crossovers.

[JEFFREY GTS]

What receiver do you have? You probably have one that does not offer a selectable crossover point.

Most middle of the road AVR's have selectable crossovers.

Thats just the thing. Mine is the flagship Marantz SR-9200. So I would figure there would be a way on a high end receiver like that to crossover your speakers.

[bgillyjcu]

Let me see, other subs I've had in my room :eek:
I'll just go back two years:
Revel B15s (2) - stacked in corner
SVS Ultra
SVS PB12 Ultra/2
SVS 20-39 PC+ (12.3 driver) (2) one in each corner
SVS PB12-NSD (2) stacked in corner
JL Audio Fathom f113, sold to local friend who wanted two f113s, while I wait for the Gotham :)
and now...........
HSU VTF-3HO w/Turbo + MBM-12
I'll post some pictures of SMS-1 frequency sweep with just the 3HO/Turbo,
with just the MBM-12, with just mains (NHT M6s) and combined sweep results.
Also tomorrow I'm going for max (or as close to max as the foundation will take :D ) SPL readings on the Darla glass tapping scene from Finding Neno.
Hopefully the subs, and foundation, will come out in one piece.

dc



I'm VERY VERY VERY interested what your impressions were of the 2 SVS PB-12NSD's stacked in the corner.

That is EXACTLY what I am thinking of doing....so needless to say I'm interested!

[jedi.night]

The dip at 120hz is certainly due to the Orbs, they begin to rolloff at close to 180-200hz. Cross them over higher and then take some measurements.

It's not a drop off though. just a dip at around 110-120hz.

the orbs are fine at 90hz, 100hz, 105hz with no drop off, meaning they are the same db's at 140, 150, 160 etc or relatively close. This was done with the subs off so I could get a feel for how low the orbs would go.

they are actually rated at 80hz. But are recommended by orb to be crossed at 120hz.

They aren't cutting out at around 115, just dipping down about 10 dbs and then head back to normal at 100 hz down until about 90 hz.

this was done with a sweep, so it was hard for me to pinpoint the exact frq's.

I will do this later today and report back.

I have a feeling the room and speaker placement are having an effect in the 115 hz region.

[monomer]

Most of what I'm reading here has to do with people struggling with trying to blend the MBM into their own personal system/situation, room acoustics, what-have-you. Though I find this all interesting, what I'd like to see commented on is how the MBM sounds. How responsive, accurate, life-like is the sound? Could some one just sit up close to one and play some music with lots of bass lines in the 50-150Hz region and comment on how good is its sound reproduction abilities/qualities. If anybody does this... thank you, it is greatly appreciated. Yes, I am seriously considering one as I'm currently not really satisfied with my main's performance in the ~110-140Hz region (lacks real presence) and my VTF2 doesn't sound very good in that range (not very well defined/controlled)... so I leave it relegated to the below 60Hz freqs where it excels in sound reproduction.

[JEFFREY GTS]

I'm VERY VERY VERY interested what your impressions were of the 2 SVS PB-12NSD's stacked in the corner.

That is EXACTLY what I am thinking of doing....so needless to say I'm interested!

I second that! You already know that I am in the exact same boat, so his opinion on the stacking of two SVS's is huge for me. Might make my mind up in returning the PB12-NSD. I already sent him a PM about it. I am just concerned because he has had so many other subs, I am starting to wonder if I should just suck it up and go without a sub for a minute and save some more $$$$$ for a better one.

[cschang]

the orbs are fine at 90hz, 100hz, 105hz with no drop off, meaning they are the same db's at 140, 150, 160 etc or relatively close. This was done with the subs off so I could get a feel for how low the orbs would go.

they are actually rated at 80hz. But are recommended by orb to be crossed at 120hz.

Is that with or without the Orb sub?

Look at the Home Theater Mag review on the Orb site. It has measurements.

[bgillyjcu]

Jeff I knew you would be VERY VERY interested as well. This is a HUGE discussion for us!

It will make or break our decisions for us!

Please let me know any information he gives you and I'll do the same!
I'm like refreshing this page every second I get to see if he posts his thoughts on the 2 stacked PB-12NSD set up!

[JEFFREY GTS]

Jeff I knew you would be VERY VERY interested as well. This is a HUGE discussion for us!

It will make or break our decisions for us!

Please let me know any information he gives you and I'll do the same!
I'm like refreshing this page every second I get to see if he posts his thoughts on the 2 stacked PB-12NSD set up!

Will do. I am doing the same, sitting here hoping he logs in. If you notice, he is not logged in today.

[jedi.night]

Is that with or without the Orb sub?

Look at the Home Theater Mag review on the Orb site. It has measurements.

No orb sub, I don't own one. Just the orbs. Utra and MBM were off.

I will do more testing later.

Edit:
I read that review, as well as several others on the site.
the range of crossover was from 80hz, 90hz and then the Home theater Mag
review rates them down to 143hz -6dbs...

Orb tech recommended I cross at 120hz.

I will try every combination later.

[bgillyjcu]

ya.....we should make like a master post asking about people who had or do have dual PB-12's.

I wonder if there are others?

I've been looking at the 16-46 PCi Subwoofer $649.00

Pair 2 of those together for either $1300. That would absoultly ROCK OUT BOTTOM bass down to around 10hz vs our PB-12's which probably can get to 18hz if we are really lucky with room boost. PLUS having 2 of them would add the MID-BASS punch as well. (I am not looking at the 20-39 because we basically have that already in our PB-12). The plus models then just start to get even more pricey when I start to think about 2 which is what we both ultimatly want anyways.

BUT then I have to remember I only paid $550 for my PB-12NSD because it was B-stock and I picked it up to save shipping. So if I wait for another B-stock PB-12 for $550 I'd really only be spending $1100 for these 2, thus saving $200 on my previous idea....


SOOOOOOOOOO for $1100 is two PB-12NSD's the BEST I can get?

[JEFFREY GTS]

I hear ya but is the extra $200 worth the performance. That is the real question.

[bgillyjcu]

Exactly. If you told me that the difference was that the $200 upgrade was like going from a BMW M3 to a BMW M5 .....well then you see my point. EVERYONE would spend the extra $200!


Jeff....what are you considering if you do not go with the 2 PB-12s. I'm interested to know your thought process.

[jedi.night]

CsChang, Peter, Craig,

What do you guys recommend setting my Receiver DSP for Bass tone testing with a CD?
Pro logic 2, stereo etc? All Speakers on? Sub off, mains on etc....

I'm going to use a radio shack SPL and test the orbs with the MBM and Ultra.

Depending on the source DSP, the readings on my spl are all over the place.

I used AVIA last night, and my readings are completely different when I use the Bass CD tones that HSU supplied and also my own custom test tone CD.

Very hard for me to get accurate comparisons. Even with adding the corrections for the SPL Meter ( I didn't forget).

I would like to do readings at -20 on my HK readout, since I would say that's my average listening level for movies, sometimes at -15 (very loud) and sometimes at -25 (more tolerable) but most of the time -20. Which if I use pink noise, is about 66dbs from the orbs...using AVIA.

[DreamCatcher]

First pic is 3HO w/Turbo only
Second pic is MBM-12 only

No SMS-1 EQ applied

[DreamCatcher]

First pic is Mains (NHT M6s) only
Second pic is ALL (3HO, MBM-12 & M6s) together

No SMS EQ applied

[JEFFREY GTS]

Seems to me that everything is working together. That last graph looks nice and even.

[DreamCatcher]

Seems to me that everything is working together. That last graph looks nice and even.
Yeah, I have some issues from 130hz into the 160s but nothing that distracts from the listening experience.... that I can hear.
The 3HO w/Turbo is the first sub I've had in my system, and you already know I've had many, that is flat to 15hz! For some reason the HO3 just seems to work really well within my listening room and in the position I have for a sub or two, that being the left front corner.

dc

[Richard Mayer]

What kind of crossover you are using (receiver, subs)?

[SteveCallas]

Is the first pic of the HSU being fed through the MBM or just a regular 80hz crossover?

[DreamCatcher]

Is the first pic of the HSU being fed through the MBM or just a regular 80hz crossover?
I'm using two crossovers,
Anthem D2 sub crossover set to 90hz, LFE output from D2 to SMS-1 which is in bypass mode. Each sub, 3HO & MBM-12, fed separate, but same, signal from SMS-1.
VTF-3HO crossover set to 50hz
MBM-12 crossover set to OFF
Obviously I'm still in the tweaking mode, trying to find the settings sweet spot.
Life was so much easier before the MBM-12 :D

dc

[bfdtv]

DreamCatcher,

Looks like excellent results for the setup. I bet the SMS-1 helped a lot to get everything integrated well. I'm not sure that would have been possible without the SMS-1 or measurement software like the free Room EQ Wizard (http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/).

[SteveCallas]

Ok, so can you take a sweep with the HO crossover disabled so that only the 90hz processor crossover is in play?

[DreamCatcher]

Ok, so can you take a sweep with the HO crossover disabled so that only the 90hz processor crossover is in play?
OK, here it is.
3HO only
Crossover bypassed in the 3HO
90hz crossover in D2
SMS-1 in bypass mode

dc

[Peter Marcks]

Let me see, other subs I've had in my room :eek:
I'll just go back two years:
Revel B15s (2) - stacked in corner
SVS Ultra
SVS PB12 Ultra/2
SVS 20-39 PC+ (12.3 driver) (2) one in each corner
SVS PB12-NSD (2) stacked in corner
JL Audio Fathom f113, sold to local friend who wanted two f113s, while I wait for the Gotham :)
and now...........
HSU VTF-3HO w/Turbo + MBM-12
I'll post some pictures of SMS-1 frequency sweep with just the 3HO/Turbo,
with just the MBM-12, with just mains (NHT M6s) and combined sweep results.
Also tomorrow I'm going for max (or as close to max as the foundation will take :D ) SPL readings on the Darla glass tapping scene from Finding Neno.
Hopefully the subs, and foundation, will come out in one piece.

dc

dc, after having all of these great subwoofers in your room, it is really quite an honor to hear you say that you now have deeper/flatter response and greater mid-bass detail and slam than you have ever had in your room! And to think that the cost of your current subwoofer system is still quite decent too! Congratulations on being one of the first consumers to try out such a setup.

[SteveCallas]

OK, here it is.
Thanks. One last request if you don't mind. Mains and sub together, no MBM, SMS bypassed, 90hz crossover.

[DreamCatcher]

Thanks. One last request if you don't mind. Mains and sub together, no MBM, SMS bypassed, 90hz crossover.
3HO w/Turbo +Mains
No MBM-12
D2 crossover @90hz
SMS in bypass mode

[LeeLee]

Wow, it would seem that the VTF-3 HO Turbo has a tough time covering 50 to 100Hz, contrary to what others have posted about this topic.

[Eddie Horton]

Everyone needs to keep in mind that this is a sweep of the sub in someone's room that ISN'T yours. Stating that the sub has a tough time covering 50-100Hz by looking at a screen shot of someone else's system is a bit of a stretch. Same as with trying to say that the MBM will or won't do anything good for your system by looking at screen shots of someone's SMS-1. Not trying to criticize anyone, and thanks dc for posting your results.

[cyberbri]

Yes, like stating that his NHTs have a dip from 125~200Hz that hits 6~7dB deep at 160hz... Maybe LeeLee just has a perfect room with flat frequency response, so he's not used to seeing dips and peaks in FR...

It's all room-dependent, and frankly I'm surprised that graph is as flat as it is below 45Hz!

[SteveCallas]

I'm not seeing dips and peaks though, I'm seeing gradual rolloffs. Dips and peaks are typically narrow in range with fluctuating magnitude, not wide and shallow. So in Dreamcatchers case, with his equipment, a superwoofer can serve a purpose.

[Eddie Horton]

So in Dreamcatchers case, with his equipment, a superwoofer can serve a purpose.

See, that's the thing. It's really impossible, and IMO flat out wrong, to say that product "x" won't serve a purpose, or will work only with a narrow set of criteria. Everyone's room and equiment, and most importantly likes and dislikes determines what works and what doesn't. And Steve, you are right. By what we can see from the shots of the SMS-1, with his room and equipment, the MBM is perfect.

[monomer]

There very well may be peaks and dips but depending upon the extent of the 'smoothing' he's employing it may not be evident. If fact because of all the variables (most including room acoustics effects on placement, etc) possible, I believe graphs are too unique to a particular location, system components, etc to be of much use in predicting how one piece of equipment will sound in your environment... at best, it may only hint at what's possible.

With all that said, I'd still like to know: How does the MBM-12 itself sound? I will take a subjective review here. If the unit doesn't sound on par with the fidelity of the rest of the system then what's the point of how well it's crossed-over or the flatness of someone else's graphs?

[Ddavidson]

I believe graphs are too unique to a particular location, system components, etc to be of much use in predicting how one piece of equipment will sound in your environment... at best, it may only hint at what's possible.
Exactly.

Ever wonder why you can hear the same components at say a friends place and it sounds awesome, and yet replicate it in another room and it can sound absolutely rotten. One of the biggest influences in what we hear is from room acoustics and speaker/sub placement.

There is far too much emphasis and procrastination over graphs and numbers ....... which mean "absolutely zero" if the new equipment that you have chosen makes your system sound like cr_p.

With all that said, I'd still like to know: How does the MBM-12 itself sound? I will take a subjective review here. If the unit doesn't sound on par with the fidelity of the rest of the system then what's the point of how well it's crossed-over or the flatness of someone else's graphs?

On A/V forums (especially with subwoofers) it is very noticeable that the marketing departments have become reliant on selling based based on spec sheets, graphs and A/V forum hype. This so called "ultimate buyers guide" to finding the best subwoofer is just a foolish reason to part with your hard earned cash.

The problem is that 99% of people making such strong recommendations (simply because they are so impressed with their new equipment) have never even "seen" let alone "heard" (or best yet directly compared) the other contenders.

After many years of listening and directly comparing similar performing subwoofer (graphs, spec sheets, price) its obvious there are "glaring differences in SQ" between such contenders. Not to mention after having friends over (while conducting such tests) that different people have vastly different tastes, expectations and perceptions about what sounds best.

Listening and best yet directly comparing your list of contenders is the only way you can be 100% positive that you have brought the best performing and sounding equipment for both you and your system.

The rest of the procrastination over graphs and numbers is just irrelevant ...... unless of course you are simply chasing number bragging rights.

Ddavidson

[DreamCatcher]

Exactly.

Ever wonder why you can hear the same components at say a friends place and it sounds awesome, and yet replicate it in another room and it can sound absolutely rotten. One of the biggest influences in what we hear is from room acoustics and speaker/sub placement.

There is far too much emphasis and procrastination over graphs and numbers ....... which mean "absolutely zero" if the new equipment that you have chosen makes your system sound like cr_p.



On A/V forums (especially with subwoofers) it is very noticeable that the marketing departments have become reliant on selling based based on spec sheets, graphs and A/V forum hype. This so called "ultimate buyers guide" to finding the best subwoofer is just a foolish reason to part with your hard earned cash.

The problem is that 99% of people making such strong recommendations (simply because they are so impressed with their new equipment) have never even "seen" let alone "heard" (or best yet directly compared) the other contenders.

After many years of listening and directly comparing similar performing subwoofer (graphs, spec sheets, price) its obvious there are "glaring differences in SQ" between such contenders. Not to mention after having friends over (while conducting such tests) that different people have vastly different tastes, expectations and perceptions about what sounds best.

Listening and best yet directly comparing your list of contenders is the only way you can be 100% positive that you have brought the best performing and sounding equipment for both you and your system.

The rest of the procrastination over graphs and numbers is just irrelevant ...... unless of course you are simply chasing number bragging rights.

Ddavidson
Well said Ddavidson,
The way to really know how something is going to sound in YOUR listening room is to listen to it in YOUR room.
The measurement pictures I posted in this thread really mean very little to others once they get the units in their room. Measurements are going to vary from one room to the next. The real benefits of the MBM-12, to me at least, are
First, how it handles music. Now that I have it dialed in, it disappears!
I am NOT able to localize it as a source of sound, until you turn it off of course. Then you notice a missing warmth, depth to the music presentation. Could I get this warmth back by defeating the 3HO crossover, yes, but to me at least, it's not as musical.
Cinema slam, WOW... By having the MBM-12 in my system I'm able to let the 3HO do it's thing 60hz - below (15hz at least) with authority! The MBM-12 picks up where the 3HO is crossed over, in my case right around 55-60hz, providing amazing punch in the gut response! Darla glass tapping scene hit 112db before I chickened out :) Everything that could shake, shook! My chair, the light fixtures, the kitchen cabinets, the floor, the foundation for all I know. It was scary loud!
I've had some great subs in my system before but nothing that shook my world like the 3HO w/Turbo & MBM-12 combo does, never!

To me the excellent (a little SMS tweaking and sweeps are flat from 15hz - 100+hz) SMS-1 sweeps are just a perk (probably a big contributor to how well my system sounds w/ music). But getting hung up on graphs, as much fun as that might be ;) doesn't mean anything if it doesn't sound good and doesn't slam your room around when it should :D

dc

[Ddavidson]

The way to really know how something is going to sound in YOUR listening room is to listen to it in YOUR room.
The measurement pictures I posted in this thread really mean very little to others once they get the units in their room. Measurements are going to vary from one room to the next. The real benefits of the MBM-12, to me at least, are
First, how it handles music. Now that I have it dialed in, it disappears!
I am NOT able to localize it as a source of sound, until you turn it off of course. Then you notice a missing warmth, depth to the music presentation. Could I get this warmth back by defeating the 3HO crossover, yes, but to me at least, it's not as musical.
Cinema slam, WOW... By having the MBM-12 in my system I'm able to let the 3HO do it's thing 60hz - below (15hz at least) with authority! The MBM-12 picks up where the 3HO is crossed over, in my case right around 55-60hz, providing amazing punch in the gut response! Darla glass tapping scene hit 112db before I chickened out :) Everything that could shake, shook! My chair, the light fixtures, the kitchen cabinets, the floor, the foundation for all I know. It was scary loud!
I've had some great subs in my system before but nothing that shook my world like the 3HO w/Turbo & MBM-12 combo does, never!

To me the excellent (a little SMS tweaking and sweeps are flat from 15hz - 100+hz) SMS-1 sweeps are just a perk (probably a big contributor to how well my system sounds w/ music). But getting hung up on graphs, as much fun as that might be ;) doesn't mean anything if it doesn't sound good and doesn't slam your room around when it should :D

dc

Elequently put.
Its all about how it sounds in your system.

Its obvious from reading that you are very impressed and extremely happy with your new editions, but for us reading its been simply awesome to see how well you have systematically put it all together to get such good results.

After listening to the clarity and punch of the MBM-12 its amazing how improving the dynamics of the midbass (with Dr Hsu's latest dedicated module) can increase your whole listening enjoyment and give your system a real lift. Because modern digital soundtracks have so much headroom (especially in the lower freq's) a dedicated midbass module is another brilliant idea from this very forward thinking and gifted designer.

You can almost hear other manufacturers saying "Why didn't we think of it"

Lots of subwoofers produce good output for "special effects" but by using music (as the great divider) most soon fall apart into a bloated one note mess. As many followers know Dr Hsu has always been a music lover first and foremost ..... hence why his designs have always found favor with music lovers and reviewers. Through sheer design efficiency Hsu designs also have tended to be right up at the top of their class in output (across their operating range). A dedicated midbass module is just furthering that desire to improve on what you can get out of your system.

Once properly setup right it comes as no surprise that the MBM-12 sounds so good. Accuracy and balance is far more important to Dr Hsu than winning some ultimate output dB drag race.

Well done DC enjoy it.

Ddavidson

[LeeLee]

Yes, like stating that his NHTs have a dip from 125~200Hz that hits 6~7dB deep at 160hz... Maybe LeeLee just has a perfect room with flat frequency response, so he's not used to seeing dips and peaks in FR...I am just used to seeing opinions expressed on the HSU subs with regards to their 50-100Hz performance as being characteristically excellent with no mention of "though it might just be because of the room I'm in". So seeing not peaks and dips, but rather a wide and relatively smooth drop in output between 50 and 100Hz indicates to me something about equipment capability or setup, versus room effects.

It's all room-dependent, and frankly I'm surprised that graph is as flat as it is below 45Hz!It's certainly flatter than my room, which would further push the reasoning away from room effects.

[LeeLee]

To me the excellent (a little SMS tweaking and sweeps are flat from 15hz - 100+hz) SMS-1 sweeps are just a perk (probably a big contributor to how well my system sounds w/ music). But getting hung up on graphs, as much fun as that might be ;) doesn't mean anything if it doesn't sound good and doesn't slam your room around when it should :D

dc
I am with you in spirit.

However, since we don't have access to your room, your equipment, or your ears to have a listen for ourselves, and since it is generally agreed upon that "you need to listen for yourself", the only part of your post that has some applicability to others are the graphs you posted, because it shows that indeed the MBM-12 can be integrated smoothly into a system at least from a frequency response standpoint.

So as you can see, it is not so much as being hung up on graphs as trying to have a conversation around parts of your posts that has some objectivity to it.

[LeeLee]

There is far too much emphasis and procrastination over graphs and numbers ....... which mean "absolutely zero" if the new equipment that you have chosen makes your system sound like cr_p.This is a rather exaggerated view that failes to acknowledge the commonly know correlations of "Equipment that measure well tend to sound good" and "good sounding equipment very rarely measures poorly". Add in the fact that measurements and graphs are often the only pieces of information with some objectivity, their value should not be subject to whoesale discount.

On A/V forums (especially with subwoofers) it is very noticeable that the marketing departments have become reliant on selling based based on spec sheets, graphs and A/V forum hype. This so called "ultimate buyers guide" to finding the best subwoofer is just a foolish reason to part with your hard earned cash. If making recommendations based on objective measurements is foolish, how much more foolish is it then to have a list of subwoofers based on one person's subjective listening impressions which we all agree is valid only "to that person in his room with his equipment"?

"I heard it, and I like it" certainly has value, especially if it comes from a respected source, such as is the case of the subwoofer list based on one person's listening impressions. But left untempered with some measure of objectivity, relying on subjective impressions tend to give rise to some very odd situations, such as green markers.

Listening and best yet directly comparing your list of contenders is the only way you can be 100% positive that you have brought the best performing and sounding equipment for both you and your system. For practical reasons, people don't seek to be 100% sure of most things in life. There is a point where getting something that is "somewhere amongst the top" is really good enough. And you can certainly arrive at such a conclusion with a combination of subjective impressions from others, objective data, and some self-listening "sanity check" sessions.

The rest of the procrastination over graphs and numbers is just irrelevant ...... unless of course you are simply chasing number bragging rights.Yea, all my co-workers know that my subwoofer goes down to 13Hz.

[SteveCallas]

After listening to the clarity and punch of the MBM-12 its amazing how improving the dynamics of the midbass (with Dr Hsu's latest dedicated module) can increase your whole listening enjoyment and give your system a real lift.
Yeah, especially when there is a large rolloff in that area to begin with - then it makes a BIG difference.

Because modern digital soundtracks have so much headroom (especially in the lower freq's) a dedicated midbass module is another brilliant idea from this very forward thinking and gifted designer. You can almost hear other manufacturers saying "Why didn't we think of it"
Lol, oh boy. Actually, most other sub manufacturers build subs that are already capable enough in this area to begin with. But manufacturers that did go ahead and build superwoofers are those who sell HTIB - you know, Sony, Kenwood, RCA, Yamaha, etc.

Lots of subwoofers produce good output for "special effects" but by using music (as the great divider) most soon fall apart into a bloated one note mess. As many followers know Dr Hsu has always been a music lover first and foremost ..... hence why his designs have always found favor with music lovers and reviewers
Interesting, so then why would this MBM be needed in addition? :confused:

[craigsub]

This is a rather exaggerated view that failes to acknowledge the commonly know correlations of "Equipment that measure well tend to sound good" and "good sounding equipment very rarely measures poorly". Add in the fact that measurements and graphs are often the only pieces of information with some objectivity, their value should not be subject to whoesale discount.

If making recommendations based on objective measurements is foolish, how much more foolish is it then to have a list of subwoofers based on one person's subjective listening impressions which we all agree is valid only "to that person in his room with his equipment"?

"I heard it, and I like it" certainly has value, especially if it comes from a respected source, such as is the case of the subwoofer list based on one person's listening impressions. But left untempered with some measure of objectivity, relying on subjective impressions tend to give rise to some very odd situations, such as green markers.

For practical reasons, people don't seek to be 100% sure of most things in life. There is a point where getting something that is "somewhere amongst the top" is really good enough. And you can certainly arrive at such a conclusion with a combination of subjective impressions from others, objective data, and some self-listening "sanity check" sessions.

Yea, all my co-workers know that my subwoofer goes down to 13Hz.

For years, DDavidson has advocated that numbers can help narrow down the choice in picking a subwoofer.

He has also promoted the idea that people should LISTEN to the subwoofer in HIS/HER own home/system.

He has never suggested that anyone make a purchase based on "one person's opinion".

[DreamCatcher]

Being capable is one thing...
Most subwoofers don't really do 60hz and up well (musical). The JL Audio f113 is not most subwoofers, but is the only sub I've owned that sounds musical through it's entire frequency range.
On the other side most main speakers (even most full range speakers) don't do well (hit hard) below 100hz. Can they play below 100hz, yes, but can they hit 110+db at say 80hz, I doubt it. And do you really want them to? I don't know about you but I cringe a bit everytime a bomb goes off and I'm listening close to reference level. I wonder how many of those can that 6.5" woofer take.

Another perk of the MBM-12 is the load it takes off of both the subwoofer and the main speakers. Just because a speaker can doesn't mean it should or that you will like the results.
ramble... ramble....

I feel pretty good about letting the MBM-12 fill in those gray areas.
Sharing the big hits with the 3HO and
providing clean tight musical mid-bass.
My biggest concern with the MBM-12.... will it's contribution be localizable (is that a word) considering it's nearfield location and the frequency range it would be operating in? After tweaking a bit, that is no longer a concern :)

dc

[SteveCallas]

Most subwoofers don't really do 60hz and up well (musical)
I guess your definition of "well" or "musical" is different from accuracy :confused:

[DreamCatcher]

I guess your definition of "well" or "musical" is different from accuracy :confused:
OK I'll play along...
What's your definition of accuracy?
And how is accurate different then musical?
Enlighten us, please.

dc

[Ddavidson]

For years, DDavidson has advocated that numbers can help narrow down the choice in picking a subwoofer.
Absolutely They help narrow down the list of contenders and give you at least some "Idea" of how it "May" sound.He has also promoted the idea that people should LISTEN to the subwoofer in HIS/HER own home/system.
Because it tells you every thing you need to know about performance and SQ and how well the designer did. Graphs and charts tell you part of the story so you can then listen to the contenders who might be at least in the ball park.He has never suggested that anyone make a purchase based on "one person's opinion". No matter what brand or model or how awesome a reviewer or purchaser rants and hypes a product its just a personal opinion. You may like anchovies but I may not so take it with a grain of salt.
Yeah, especially when there is a large rolloff in that area to begin with - then it makes a BIG difference.
Interesting, so then why would this MBM be needed in addition?
Many true subwoofers don't have the clarity and dynamics that the MBM is capable of delivering. Its similar to the benefit you get from adding a true subwoofer to your mains where your biamping and thus relieving your main speakers and amp. The benefits are increased dynamics and the ability to place it where it works well with your room acoustics.
But manufacturers that did go ahead and build superwoofers are those who sell HTIB - you know, Sony, Kenwood, RCA, Yamaha, etc.
Recommend to add one of those to your system if you want but let me tell you they aint no MBM-12. :D
This is a rather exaggerated view that failes to acknowledge the commonly know correlations of "Equipment that measure well tend to sound good" and "good sounding equipment very rarely measures poorly".
Agreed but only to get a list of "potential contenders". After many years of comparison tests its clear that when directly listening to several subwoofers (that have "very similar "measurements) you will find vast differences in how they sound.
In the end to make a final purchasing decision you are simply not getting the full story with graphs where with listening comparisons you are."I heard it, and I like it" certainly has value, especially if it comes from a respected source, such as is the case of the subwoofer list based on one person's listening impressions. But left untempered with some measure of objectivity, relying on subjective impressions tend to give rise to some very odd situations, such as green markers.
Of course it has some value but only for closing down your list of potential contenders. Its an opinion after all, and so sure if you want to guess that your opinion will be the same..... then go ahead as its your money. Like our indervidual taste in food we all have our own perceptions and expectations about what sounds good to us.There is a point where getting something that is "somewhere amongst the top" is really good enough.
As long as your happy and don't have any regrets.

I find half the enjoyment is in striving to get the best out of my room and system. If that means spending some time to listen to find the best possible contender then thats what I prefer to do. I guess I am not a "Good Enough" type of guy. I like having absolutely no doubt that the new equipment that I have just purchased has the best sound and performance within my budget constraints.
Yea, all my co-workers know that my subwoofer goes down to 13Hz. :D

At the end of the day (for me personally) audio is all about listening and if what I am hearing sounds awesome then thats all that matters. I leave the spl bragging to those who find such matters the driving reason why they chose what they chose.

Ddavidson

[SteveCallas]

And how is accurate different then musical?
You said:

Most subwoofers don't really do 60hz and up well (musical).
A good sub will easily handle the 60-80hz range with minimal distortion, excellent transient response, high output capability, and a relatively flat FR. But you don't find this reproduction to be musical, so....

Many true subwoofers don't have the clarity and dynamics that the MBM is capable of delivering
"Clarity" - I'll take that to mean low distortion and good transient response. I'd hope it has low distortion in its limited range, but you can't look past the fact that it is using port output in this range, and it's trying to work in two additional crossovers. This is going to hurst transient response quite a bit. I'm a huge fan of ports, but the key is to limit their use to as low as frequency range as possible to stifle the negative side effects. I can't find this model on their website, but I'd assume the lowpass end is going to be 6th order and the highpass 4th? It's just creating such a huge window for error and such a small one for success - again, it's use, in my opinion, should be limited to system where there is a clear lack of upper bass to begin with, and that's it. But I'm starting to bore of this topic, spend your money how ever you like if it makes you happy ;)

Recommend to add one of those to your system if you want but let me tell you they aint no MBM-12
My point, that I guess didn't come through, was that a decent system shouldn't need a superwoofer to begin with. Something like a HTIB though, with its small satellites, does.

[Ddavidson]

"Clarity" - I'll take that to mean low distortion and good transient response.
Yes correct.
Being such an ultra lite cone, having such a low inductance voice coil and strong magnet yields extremely quick response with very high efficiency. It allows those subtle changes and textures to be picked out within the midbass area that most true subs miss out on.
My point, that I guess didn't come through, was that a decent system shouldn't need a superwoofer to begin with. Something like a HTIB though, with its small satellites, does.
As you haven't seen let alone heard it I find your trying to put it into the Sony, Kenwood, RCA, Yamaha, etc class a clear sign of your objectivity.

As I have always said let your ears do the judging with audio reproduction. If you test it in your system and find it is not as you want ....... then you sure do have a reason for knocking it. The difference between audio theory and actual reality is only ever made clear in listening tests because charts, graphs and theory can never tell you exactly how it sounds to your ears and in your acoustical environment. Many times on A/V forums you clearly see that objectivity and opinions will also depend on the badge that is on the front of the equipment.

Ddavidson

[SteveCallas]

Being such an ultra lite cone, having such a low inductance voice coil and strong magnet yields extremely quick response with very high efficiency. It allows those subtle changes and textures to be picked out within the midbass area that most true subs miss out on.
So you're talking about "quick bass" eh? As if a lighter cone or some other magic will help it capture details that a larger, heavier subwoofer driver wouldn't? :rolleyes: See, this is what happens when you buy into subjective "audiophile talk" and bypass those silly scientific measurements and charts. I'm sorry I said anything, no reason in continuing.

[cschang]

Steve...why do speakers nowadays generally not have 12" woofers? Do you know the effect of cone weight on a driver? Do you know why sometimes cones are heavier and some lighter? What will a heavier cone get you...lighter one? Have you seen different measurements of impulse/transient response and why some drivers are better than others?

Why are there woofers, midranges, and tweeters?

Tell me you are not saying that a fullrange driver is all you need to produce a great speaker.

[Ddavidson]

So you're talking about "quick bass" eh?
Round and round the garden. You can keep making up whatever you want .... what I said is clearly seen above .... not that you care to read it with your obvious closed mind set.

As you very well know quick bass is "not" what I said as there is no such thing .... but there are better drivers and now dedicated enclosure that are more accurate in reproducing transients and subtle differences within the mid bass freq's.

As I said just keep staring at those graphs ...... its no good you listening to any audio equipment as that's obviously a total waste of time and tells you nothing.

Ddavidson

[lonwolf615]

As I have always said let your ears do the judging with audio reproduction. If you test it in your system and find it is not as you want ....... then you sure do have a reason for knocking it. The difference between audio theory and actual reality is only ever made clear in listening tests because charts, graphs and theory can never tell you exactly how it sounds to your ears and in your acoustical environment. Many times on A/V forums you clearly see that objectivity and opinions will also depend on the badge that is on the front of the equipment.

Ddavidson

Great, great post. Should be a sticky at the top of both this forum and the speaker one.

[Ddavidson]

Its a shame more people don't get a chance to directly compare and make up their own mind rather than all this heavily promoted procrastination over specs and theory. Because of this spec sheet "buyers mentality" so many people end up missing out on purchasing a better sounding product. Its only when directly comparing your chosen contenders (in your system) that you will actually get to hear which unit is clearly the best.

Dddavidson

[bfdtv]

Its a shame more people don't get a chance to directly compare and make up their own mind rather than all this heavily promoted procrastination over specs and theory. Because of this spec sheet "buyers mentality" so many people end up missing out on purchasing a better sounding product. Its only when directly comparing your chosen contenders (in your system) that you will actually get to hear which unit is clearly the best.Agreed.

Assuming you have a UPS or Fedex account (which anyone can sign up for online), it will cost less than $100 to return even the largest of subwoofers. That $100 is a small price to pay to get the subwoofer that sounds the best in your room to your ears. Chances are you'll also save money in the long run too, because you'll be more confident in the purchase and know from personal experience that you got the best possible subwoofer for your room and budget -- hence you won't feel quite the same urge to upgrade in a few years.

[monomer]

...That $100 is a small price to pay to get the subwoofer that sounds the best in your room to your ears...
You do realize that its all relative? To many people (me included), the shipping costs associated with listening to 4 or 5 subs in your home could possibly represent the purchase price of a whole sub. So that's like asking some one to pay double the price for a subwoofer that they have verified will sound the best in their home... a really good thing to be sure, but an expense most 'budget minded' people (again, myself included) will find highly un-attractive. This is because if viewed from the perspective of working from a "fixed budget" it would mean the purchase price of the subs you can now consider is halved... and often at the lower-end, price will have a major impact upon the capabilities of a subwoofer. An example might be instead of being able to select from a group of subs that might include a HSU VTF-2 Mk3, you're choices can now only include subs like the BIC H-100... and irrespective of your home environment, I would think the HSU would be the better choice, if only because of the much higher resale value amount if you do decide to up-grade later.

The bottomline here, I believe, is your budget. If you have $10,000 to spend on your audio hobby, then YES listen to as many speakers in your home as you need to be sure of getting what is the best to your ears in your environment. BUT, if your budget is only $1000 then you're better off buying what you feel most likely will be the best sounding speakers in your home by looking at specs/graphs, reading as many reviews as you can find, hearing what others have to say, and trying to listen to as many speakers as you can (definitely in your home when that is possible), and if needed using part of your speaker budget for adding acoustial treatments to your listening area. Yes, I know reviews are subjective ...and though objective, specs can't tell the whole story (and both of these can even be misleading if not taken with a measure of caution and common sense) but when you're buying speakers on a budget, and especially if you live in a remote location, what else do you have to go on? You end up using whatever you can get to make a final decision.

And this is why, for the third time in this thread, I'm asking for a review of the MBM-12 solo... how does IT, by itself, perform? ...outside of how it fits/blends into your particular system and environment. There seems to be enough threads between the AVS forums and some 'other' audio forums, filled with reviews of how the MBM-12 sounds/blends in a particular system/environment, which is a good thing and so I am reading and absorbing those postings as well, but, I feel, these alone do not constitued a complete evaluation. For instance... The first thing I always do with any new speaker is to FIRST listen to the speaker near-field (to minimize any room reflections and resonances) with a variety of music to assess a particular speaker's strengths and weaknesses. This then tells me about the possibilities of this speaker in my set-up and its chosen position... and ONLY THEN do I begin trying to actually integrate this new speaker(s) into my system. I don't care if its main speakers, a center speaker, side surround speakers, rear surround speakers, or a sub-woofer, OR in this case a mid-bass sub (if I had one)... I subject all my new speakers to this evaluation procedure... I kinda thought everybody did. But now I'm beginning to believe no one else does that first step in the evaluation process, or at least not where subwoofers are concerned... either that or they simply do not want to express their opinions for some reason.

And BTW, I think some people are confused as to the meaning of the words: subjective, objective, procrastination... no big deal, I know what you meant to say but just as a friendly suggestion, you might want to look those up.

[Lindahl]

Here are my thoughts, take them or leave them:

I'd have to agree that many speakers, even floorstanders rated down to 40 hz just don't have the midbass headroom to match mids and highs. A floorstander with headroom to match something like the MBM would typically need to be a 3-way with at least two woofers, and preferably two mid-woofers or midranges. This allows you to choose woofers that are designed to perform well, down to the mid-bass frequencies. I just don't see many people using mains with this capability. If you want to call those wimpy mains, go right ahead - but there really aren't many offerings that can hit the mid-bass frequencies well. Subwoofers should theoretically cover this range, but the graph of the VTF3HO just doesn't show it (it's not the room, that's a definate roll-off). I've seen graphs of other subwoofers that also show weakened headroom in the midbass frequencies. When you sum up a weakened headroom in the subwoofer with a weakened headroom in the mains, you're left with a frequency response that's weak in the midbass (visible in one of the graphs posted, here). These are just my two cents - if you're gonna be playing loud, get some very capable 3-ways, or an MBM to fill the hole. In many situations, the MBM will be more economical.

[Lindahl]

You do realize that its all relative? To many people (me included), the shipping costs associated with listening to 4 or 5 subs in your home could possibly represent the purchase price of a whole sub. So that's like asking some one to pay double the price for a subwoofer that they have verified will sound the best in their home... a really good thing to be sure, but an expense most 'budget minded' people (again, myself included) will find highly un-attractive. This is because if viewed from the perspective of working from a "fixed budget" it would mean the purchase price of the subs you can now consider is halved... and often at the lower-end, price will have a major impact upon the capabilities of a subwoofer. An example might be instead of being able to select from a group of subs that might include a HSU VTF-2 Mk3, you're choices can now only include subs like the BIC H-100... and irrespective of your home environment, I would think the HSU would be the better choice, if only because of the much higher resale value amount if you do decide to up-grade later.

Very good point. DIY, perhaps? :D

[Ddavidson]

You do realize that its all relative? To many people (me included), the shipping costs associated with listening to 4 or 5 subs in your home could possibly represent the purchase price of a whole sub.
Absolutely its the one big downfall of products sold "only direct" to the end user. Its also the one area where the more traditional retail brands with retail outlets have such a big advantage.

Having lots of people around who share a passion for improving their systems is big bonus for me. I can always seem to find someone around who has some bit of gear I haven't heard and they are always keen to drop by with some beers and do some listening comparisons. It's part of the big attraction for me as its become my main hobby .... so its enjoyable to try to make improvements.

The way I figure it Ive got to spend my money on something so it may as well be on something I enjoy. It certainly no good to me when that final day comes. :eek:

For instance... The first thing I always do with any new speaker is to FIRST listen to the speaker near-field (to minimize any room reflections and resonances) with a variety of music to assess a particular speaker's strengths and weaknesses. This then tells me about the possibilities of this speaker in my set-up and its chosen position... and ONLY THEN do I begin trying to actually integrate this new speaker(s) into my system. I don't care if its main speakers, a center speaker, side surround speakers, rear surround speakers, or a sub-woofer, OR in this case a mid-bass sub (if I had one)... I subject all my new speakers to this evaluation procedure... I kinda thought everybody did. But now I'm beginning to believe no one else does that first step in the evaluation process, or at least not where subwoofers are concerned... either that or they simply do not want to express their opinions for some reason.

Well I do which is why I tell everyone that by listening and directly comparing you will get the "whole story" and thus remove any guesswork in the variability of opinions, bad setups, bad acoustics or the common a/v forum trait of following the cheer leading squad as they promote their favorite name tag.

I guess I am relatively lucky because my main stereo listening room is very well balanced. Although I do admit to spending plenty of $$$ from its ground up construction rather than taking the cheaper option of adapting a room and then fighting the acoustic battle.

As far as how the MBM actually sounds ....... I found that its very tight, very dynamic and its tonality very neutral. But like anything subjective that my opinion as over the years I have found that sound just like taste buds varies with each individual. At the end of the day sound reproduction is a very subjective topic (its certainly not objective like people wished it was). The objective part gets you in the ball game but to win the game you definitely have to listen.

Ddavidson

[JEFFREY GTS]

According the HSU, the MBM is crossed to take FQ of 50hz-150hz and will work with any sub. The PB10 will do the upper region but will go down to 20hz and lower.......hey that's good! :D

What if my receiver automatically sets all low frequencies 80hz and below to be routed to the sub and everything else to the mains? Will the MBM only be playing 50-80hz signals?

[cyberbri]

What if my receiver automatically sets all low frequencies 80hz and below to be routed to the sub and everything else to the mains? Will the MBM only be playing 50-80hz signals?

No, because crossovers aren't brick walls. They reduce the level past the crossover point according to a "slope." That slope might be 12dB per octave or 24dB per octave, or something different. An octave is a doubling or halving of frequencies. So speakers crossed over at 80Hz might get a 40Hz signal, but at 12dB or 24dB lower than the actual signal. A subwoofer crossed over at 80Hz in the receiver will be getting frequencies at 160Hz and beyond, albeit at reduced levels.

If you're a more visual person, here's a graph showing the crossover performance measurements of the Denon 5805 at audioholics.com (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/DenonAVR5805p7.php):
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/images/clip_image002_020.gif

Red Traces: Main CH set to 80Hz and corresponding subwoofer output

Green Traces: Center CH set to 150Hz and corresponding subwoofer output

[JimP]

Since the MBM will likely wind up behind the sofa, what the most cost effective way to add some delay to it?

I'm already using the distance setting in my preamp for the main subwoofer. Its adjusted based on frequency sweeps on the SMS-1.

Is latency going to be as big a problem at around 50hz as it can be at 80 or 90hz?

[oliverlim]

Everyone seems to be missing the point that multiple subs actually has one advantage. It actually improves the flatness of the FR over a bigger area. One sub will almost defintely mean there will be some slight dip or peak over the range of the sub. that is 15hz to 80hz. Unless you are lucky or you have a very good room, or both. I am not familiar with the rooms in America as most have walls made of plaster board that tends to "leak bass". Here in Singapore, most of us have rooms with concrete walls and ceiling and floors. This can be a nightmare and we usually have a FR no matter what that have dips and peaks as much as 6-10db. Multiple subs not colocated, or a Low Subwoofer and Mid subwoofer placed at a deteremined location for smoothest FR does wonders.

I have also noted that having the smoothest looking FR graph might not sound as good as one that has more peaks and valleys. So measurements can get you there, but listening is just as important if not more important and will determine the final sub location and tuning/phase. SMS-1 does measure to 1hz accuracy, the graph it shows is only about 1/3 octave. this is base on my measurements with my SMS-1 and REQW. So this should be taken into account.

I totally agree with what HSU is doing with the MBM12. In fact I have been using My PC Ultra for below 50hz and my EarthQuake MKV15P for 50hz -80hz with BFD/SMS-1 in my system for almost 2 years. Only recently upgrading to 2 x PB12/Plus doing 50hz and below and 2 x SB12plus for 50-90hz. This frees up my PB12plus for the low bass only and allows my SB12plus to work more effortlessly. The punch of the mid bass is defintely much stronger and the low bass more effortless and deep. EVEN THOUGHT THE FR GRAPH SEEMS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME! Why 2 subs each? Smoother bass over my sofa area and no single bass note that seems to only occur in one ear. This has been my experience so far.

I am hoping to be able to test out MBM12 soon, once I get a reply from HSU on the shipping rates :-p

Oliver

[JimP]

oliverlim
Are you using BFM/SMS to get the 50 hz cutoff on the EarthQuakes/SB12plus?

Others
Is anyone having a problem with mismatch SPL between the MBM and their main sub(s) when the volume changes???????

[oliverlim]

oliverlim
Are you using BFM/SMS to get the 50 hz cutoff on the EarthQuakes/SB12plus?

Others
Is anyone having a problem with mismatch SPL between the MBM and their main sub(s) when the volume changes???????

Am using the SMS-1 to low pass 50hz for my PB12plus/2. The SB12plus is low pass at 90hz and a subsonic filter at 50hz. I use slightly different crossover slope to fine tune the crossover/subsonic region. Thats the beauty of the SMS-1.

I also notice that it is best to tune your sub/mains at the normal volume you listen to to avoid the mismatch you are refering to. Another beauty of the SMS-1 is the 5 memory all recallable with the remote. So 1 slot for Stereo listening at low volumes, 1 slot for Stereo high volume, same for HT with one slot left as a Crazy HT Demo mode! :D

Oliver

[Richard Mayer]

Am using the SMS-1 to low pass 50hz for my PB12plus/2. The SB12plus is low pass at 90hz and a subsonic filter at 50hz. I use slightly different crossover slope to fine tune the crossover/subsonic region. Thats the beauty of the SMS-1.

Oliver
Could you explain a little bit more? I thought all three outputs on the SMS-1 give identical signals i.e. you can't use different low pass/subsonic filter settings for two or more subs?

[oliverlim]

Could you explain a little bit more? I thought all three outputs on the SMS-1 give identical signals i.e. you can't use different low pass/subsonic filter settings for two or more subs?


Thats why I have dual of everything :D Basically one SMS-1 for the pair of PB12plus/2 and another for the pair of SB12plus. I really wish that the SMS-1 was a 2 channel unit instead of 1 channel. It would save alot of rack space for me.

Oliver

[Richard Mayer]

Thats why I have dual of everything :D Basically one SMS-1 for the pair of PB12plus/2 and another for the pair of SB12plus. I really wish that the SMS-1 was a 2 channel unit instead of 1 channel. It would save alot of rack space for me.

Oliver
I see...! :D

Rack space - what about money? :eek:

[JEFFREY GTS]

O.K., I've got a question here.

Has anyone actually experimented with putting the MBM next to your main sub vs behind the sofa at the primary listening position(their graphic) with a SMS-1 either way and necessarily found one to clearly work better than the other?

Got my MBM yesterday and stopped playing with it when I smelled something burning. Not sure where it came from, but thought it would be better to unplug some things.

I am curious about that as well. I really don't want to put it next to my couch. I would rather put it on top of my current SVS or next to it. Would that defeat the purpose of getting one?

[JEFFREY GTS]

My next question is, if the HSU MBM is designed for mid bass performance, couldn't another speaker do the exact same thing? Maybe go with a 10 inch sealed sub that produces the upper frequencies?

[JEFFREY GTS]

Jim, you should does some tests and see if setting your MBM on top of your Velodyne works out.

[cschang]

My next question is, if the HSU MBM is designed for mid bass performance, couldn't another speaker do the exact same thing? Maybe go with a 10 inch sealed sub that produces the upper frequencies?
Sure, but name another sub designed specifically for high performance mid-bass.

[JEFFREY GTS]

So adding the MBM and sitting in top of your current sub, that is giving you the best results? That would most likely be the way I would set it up. So there in a lot more midbass impact compared to your Velodyne by itself? Can you snap a couple of more pics of what it looks like on top of your sub?
Thanks Jim

[JEFFREY GTS]

Jeff,

For now, I prefer it on top of the Velo sub. I also don't have to worry about time alignment as much and can avoid dropping another $200 for something to provide different delays.

It would be nice if HSU come come up with a grill to go over the driver for those of us that want to aim the driver into the room.

One more picture attached.

I am very glad to hear that. I was worried that placing it on top and so close to my current sub, that they might sound bad because of how different they are. So from the pic, you have the driver firing at you, where is the port?

Also, have you done some A- B comparisons. Playing the same scene with just y