Note that these THREE BR player profiles stand as opposed to one advanced profile in HD DVD - which includes all the key things the three BD profiles include, such as Networking, PiP, etc - right from the first HD DVD player shipped...And don't include 20GB of capacity, 18Mb/s of bandwidth, support from 50% of the major studios, good recordable support, support from more than one major CE vendor, ...

Which do you think we'll see first - HD DVD supporting all those things, or Blu-ray supporting secondary video and networking?

And don't include 20GB of capacity, 18Mb/s of bandwidth, support from 50% of the major studios, good recordable support, support from more than one major CE vendor, ...

Which do you think we'll see first - HD DVD supporting all those things, or Blu-ray supporting secondary video and networking?

And you are outta here!

Nicely laid out.

So you'll have BD with fully-compatible 50GB ROM and -R/-RE (with a roadmap to 200GB -R/-RE), while HD will have non-compatible 51GB and maybe 30GB -R/-RW.
Are you suggesting current profile(s) BD players will read 100 GB disks? Irrelevant.

Which do you think we'll see first - HD DVD supporting all those things, or Blu-ray supporting secondary video and networking?

When is Bluray going to have inexpensive CE players and HTPC solution ?

And CEOs of supporting companies which don't lie (60K movies sold ?).

Are you suggesting current profile(s) BD players will read 100 GB disks? Irrelevant.Not irrelevant. Irrelevant to whether movies could be published on 100GB discs. Not irrelevant to people who may want to do 100GB videos or backups on their PC's, recorders, or camcorders (using newer drives) and will thus consume legacy BD25/50 ROM as well.

Could be. Will make it easier for them to port their BD titles over to HD DVD, if that is the aim. However, isn't there other issues beyond size such as bit rates, encryption etc?

I believe TL51 is spec'ed at 1.5x to get the bit rate. As far as encryption, I thought Fox was the only one that pushed for BD+. Guessing that if Toshiba trots out a technically "equivalent" disc to Blu-ray then Disney won't have an excuse not to be neutral (other than possible political reasons). If Disney went neutral, I bet the other studios would fall like a house of cards -- just a gut feeling on my part.

As Gary put it, I think the sole purpose of TL51 is to garner further studio support.

When is Bluray going to have inexpensive CE playersWe do - PS3 at $499. You do realize that the reason the Toshiba low-end players have been cheaper has everything to do with market strategy (some would call it desperation) and nothing to do with actual build costs, right? And that the only reason most of the Blu-ray players are more expensive is because at current demand levels current pricing is completely supportable?
and HTPC solution ?How about the gorgeous Sony Vaio XL3 (http://www.gadgetell.com/2007/01/sony-vaio-xl3-the-home-theater-pc-powerhouse/) or the Amex Digital MPC-505 (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/amex-digital-announces-bluray-htpc-173726.php)? Oh, and they can actually record on discs, too!

Who's winning the battle, I hear HDDVD is more reliable, and looks better, while B-R looks better on paper, but the quality is not there yet.

That's pure propaganda. BD is better both on paper and in real life. Hilarious, ROFLMAO

...isn't this post a pure example of propaganda??? :)

You do know, that others can right click on our screen names and use the "find more post by... feature" to put our postings in context. :rolleyes:

Guessing that if Toshiba trots out a technically "equivalent" disc to Blu-ray then Disney won't have an excuse not to be neutral (other than possible political reasons).How about because going neutral would only prolong the war and reduce total sales? Assuming current players won't read TL51 discs, Disney would be selling into a zero-unit market. And faced with the requirement to buy a new player to use Disney discs, HD DVD buyers are probably more likely to buy a Blu-ray player instead, which would give them access all of Disney's (and Fox's and Sony's) previously-released titles, rather than awaiting Disney to release new TL51 discs.

See the new "Format Battle: Content Scorecard" thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9499796).

We do - PS3 at $499. You do realize that the reason the Toshiba low-end players have been cheaper has everything to do with market strategy (some would call it desperation) and nothing to do with actual build costs, right? And that the only reason most of the Blu-ray players are more expensive is because at current demand levels current pricing is completely supportable?
Ok, then, how much does it cost Toshiba to build the A2?

Who's winning the battle, I hear HDDVD is more reliable, and looks better, while B-R looks better on paper, but the quality is not there yet. Hi Tool Shed. Welcome to the format battle thread. In case you haven't read any of the previous posts here, this is a relatively polarized thread with supporter on either side making the case for the format they support. Kind of like watching a debate take place.

I won't try to provide a summary of all of our arguments. If you're interested you can always go back and read through some of them. I think there's some good info in there as well as a bunch of useless banter.

In short, there is no simple answer to your question. I think you'll need to review the information for yourself and make your own decision. Or you can adopt both formats, as some of the regulars on this thread have already done. I contrast this response with the earlier one complaining of propaganda.

BD and HD-DVD Market share report in Japan X’mas sales

No.1 Panasonic DMR-BW200 56.7％ - Recorder
No.2 Sony BDZ-V9 28.3％ - Recorder
No.3 Panasonic DMR-BW100 7.0％ - Recorder
No.4 Toshiba HD-XF2 2.9％ - Player
No.5 Sony BDZ-V7 2.7％ - Recorder
No.6 Toshiba RD-A1 1.5％ - Recorder
No.7 Toshiba HD-XA2 0.6％ - Player
No.8 Toshiba HD-XA1 0.3％ - Player

BD and HD-DVD Market share report in Japan X’mas sales

No.1 Panasonic DMR-BW200 56.7％ - Recorder
No.2 Sony BDZ-V9 28.3％ - Recorder
No.3 Panasonic DMR-BW100 7.0％ - Recorder
No.4 Toshiba HD-XF2 2.9％ - Player
No.5 Sony BDZ-V7 2.7％ - Recorder
No.6 Toshiba RD-A1 1.5％ - Recorder
No.7 Toshiba HD-XA2 0.6％ - Player
No.8 Toshiba HD-XA1 0.3％ - Player
Does BD not have any players (not recorders) available in the Japanese market? Does this reflect the popularity of BD versus HD-DVD, or the popularity of recorders versus players?

That BDZ-V9 is pretty hot. Looks alot like the upcoming Saphire 2 IIRC (Saphire 1 was fixed like the BDP-S1 IIRC). Wish Sony would just bring that thing over.

How about because going neutral would only prolong the war and reduce total sales?

How would this prolong the war more or less than it is? Currently you have exclusive studios on each side in addition to format neutral studios. In all honesty, I believe both formats will exist and there will be no "winner" or "loser".

Assuming current players won't read TL51 discs, Disney would be selling into a zero-unit market.

No one knows for sure yet whether current HD players will be able to play TL51 or not. My guess is G1 owners will be SOL and G2 owners will require a firmware update for TL51 compatability. I highly doubt that Toshiba would develop a format that is unplayable on all of their players.

And faced with the requirement to buy a new player to use Disney discs, HD DVD buyers are probably more likely to buy a Blu-ray player instead, which would give them access all of Disney's (and Fox's and Sony's) previously-released titles, rather than awaiting Disney to release new TL51 discs.

Only when Blu-ray players come down in price -- just don't make me wait two to three years! ;)

We do - PS3 at $499.

Plus the cost of a separate remote, and it can't be used with a universal remote. It also doesn't seem to be sold at any discount off MSRP if you can even find one, which makes the $499 price deceiving.

You do realize that the reason the Toshiba low-end players have been cheaper has everything to do with market strategy (some would call it desperation) and nothing to do with actual build costs, right?


Ummm, the PS3 certainly costs up to many hundreds more in build and development costs than a Toshiba. What does that say about Sony?


And that the only reason most of the Blu-ray players are more expensive is because at current demand levels current pricing is completely supportable?

If you look at it that way, the standalone Blu-ray players are a real bargain. With their current demand levels, they might well sell for $5000 to $10000 to the discriminating BD connoisseurs since nobody else seems to be buying them. :D

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
And that the only reason most of the Blu-ray players are more expensive is because at current demand levels current pricing is completely supportable? to the what, 20,000 or 25,000 standalone Blu-ray player owners?

Gee, I thought the BDA wanted more players sold than that...... How is that current pricing supportable?

Well the PS3 does prove that a Blu-ray player included in a game machine will sell in greater quantities at a lower price. Why don't the Blu-ray companies go down to that price point to get volume?? Oh wait...I remember know....

Assuming current players won't read TL51 discs, Disney would be selling into a zero-unit market.

You know what they say about "assuming"?

And faced with the requirement to buy a new player to use Disney discs, HD DVD buyers are probably more likely to buy a Blu-ray player instead, which would give them access all of Disney's (and Fox's and Sony's) previously-released titles, rather than awaiting Disney to release new TL51 discs.

Why aren't they buying a BD player now?

Why aren't they buying a BD player now?

There are plenty that are.

BD and HD-DVD Market share report in Japan X’mas sales

No.1 Panasonic DMR-BW200 56.7％ - Recorder
No.2 Sony BDZ-V9 28.3％ - Recorder
No.3 Panasonic DMR-BW100 7.0％ - Recorder
No.4 Toshiba HD-XF2 2.9％ - Player
No.5 Sony BDZ-V7 2.7％ - Recorder
No.6 Toshiba RD-A1 1.5％ - Recorder
No.7 Toshiba HD-XA2 0.6％ - Player
No.8 Toshiba HD-XA1 0.3％ - PlayerAnd the real question is: Do any of those "BD Recorders" play back BD ROM at all? If I recall correctly, BD recorders have been available for sale in Japan for the last 2-3 years, and none of them could play BD ROM.

Does BD not have any players (not recorders) available in the Japanese market? Does this reflect the popularity of BD versus HD-DVD, or the popularity of recorders versus players?That market share represents the share of HD playback capable equipments, including all BD recorders which support BD-ROM playback and HD DVD players and HD DVD recorder, except game consoles like PS3 and Xbox360 add-on.

And the real question is: Do any of those "BD Recorders" play back BD ROM at all? If I recall correctly, BD recorders have been available for sale in Japan for the last 2-3 years, and none of them could play BD ROM.Those are all BD-ROM capable machines. DMR-BW200 was selling 20,000 during last (less than) two months. Considering XA1 & A1 took 8 months to sell 30,000 units in NA, 20,000 within 2 months seems not too bad (even though its expensive pricing).

From the endgadget articles and their listing on the blu-raydisc.com global site, it appears so.

It also does nothing for the other half of the equation, recordable. While it doesn't get much discussion here recordability matters, both for PC-based video and data storage and for camcorders and similar devices. Given how much trouble the DVD Forum is having with recordability of the current DL standard, it's almost inconceivable that TL51 would be recordable. So you'll have BD with fully-compatible 50GB ROM and -R/-RE (with a roadmap to 200GB -R/-RE), while HD will have non-compatible 51GB and maybe 30GB -R/-RW.


My personal opinion...and I work as a sys admin, so I know a bit about storage....is that for the next generation of HD media, it might not need to be the same format as what might be the next gen storage media.

For most users, dvd DL is enough space to back up their stuff. I haven't seen the price of recordable BD or HD DVD media....but I am guessing it is pricey. Now of course that will change, but by the time it becomes cheap enough to be palatable for end user storage, One format may have one. (or both will just continue to exist). People buying new PC's and Macs that come with an HD DVD or BD recordable drive are going to take a while to figure out what the heck they have in their machine. (Computer end users are worse than HD consumers) OR wonder why their recorded "dvd" won't play in their DVD player like it used to.

In any case, my point is more that having two HD formats is confusing enough for the average person. Having certain discs that don't play in certain players is bad too.....but for HD DVD to change its disc spec at this stage would REALLY confuse people. They have proven that 30 gigs is enough....if studios need to be "enticed" with the promise of more storage which is not needed.....well I guess these aren't the brightest people anyway.

And the real question is: Do any of those "BD Recorders" play back BD ROM at all?


Yes. Panasonic to Launch the World's First Blu-ray Disc Recorders Capable of Playing Back BD-Video Discs (http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/271158.html)

If I recall correctly, BD recorders have been available for sale in Japan for the last 2-3 years, and none of them could play BD ROM.

Indeed the original BD recorders have been around since 2003.

We do - PS3 at $499.

Don't you know what a CE player is ?


How about the gorgeous Sony Vaio XL3 (http://www.gadgetell.com/2007/01/sony-vaio-xl3-the-home-theater-pc-powerhouse/) or the Amex Digital MPC-505 (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/amex-digital-announces-bluray-htpc-173726.php)? Oh, and they can actually record on discs, too!

Did you miss the inexpensive part ? Yes, it was for both CE players & HTPC.

Don't you know what a CE player is ?


I'd say given it's quiet and speed, the PS3 is the best HD player out now in either format, CE or console. The only thing hindering it from CE status at all is the lack of autoplay from the XMB and an LED based display on the front.

The former is most likely coming in the March firmware update and the latter should probably go in the next hardware revision. :)

BD and HD-DVD Market share report in Japan X’mas sales

No.1 Panasonic DMR-BW200 56.7％ - Recorder
No.2 Sony BDZ-V9 28.3％ - Recorder
No.3 Panasonic DMR-BW100 7.0％ - Recorder
No.4 Toshiba HD-XF2 2.9％ - Player
No.5 Sony BDZ-V7 2.7％ - Recorder
No.6 Toshiba RD-A1 1.5％ - Recorder
No.7 Toshiba HD-XA2 0.6％ - Player
No.8 Toshiba HD-XA1 0.3％ - Player

Sony's MiniDisc was also very popular in Japan. Do you have the same sales breakdown for stand alone players in North America?

The only thing hindering it from CE status at all is the lack of autoplay from the XMB and an LED based display on the front.

How about form factor, interface, cables and most importantly a remote. Not to talk about the fact that it is a "play station". Except for tube electronics I don't think any CE equipment ships today without a remote.

Afterall what is the difference between a HTPC and a PC like CE player (say Tosh A1) ?

I'd say given it's quiet and speed, the PS3 is the best HD player out now in either format, CE or console. The only thing hindering it from CE status at all is the lack of autoplay from the XMB and an LED based display on the front.

The former is most likely coming in the March firmware update and the latter should probably go in the next hardware revision. :)

I would say the PS3 is the best BD player available, at least for most people. The best HD player becomes much more subjective.

If you prefer the content on BD - buy a PS3
If you prefer the content on BD and want great DVD upscaling - buy the G2 Samsung
If you prefer the content on HD-DVD and own an Xbox360 - buy the add-on
If you prefer the content on HD-DVD and want an inexpensive stand alone with good DVD upscaling - buy the HD-A2
If you prefer the content on HD-DVD and want great DVD upscaling - buy the HD-XA2

There are other scenarios of course. :)

I'd say given it's quiet and speed, the PS3 is the best HD player out now in either format, CE or console. The only thing hindering it from CE status at all is the lack of autoplay from the XMB and an LED based display on the front.

The former is most likely coming in the March firmware update and the latter should probably go in the next hardware revision. :)

I like the output of my PS3 but I would say the things lacking that I would expect in a CE HD player are infrared remote input, Scaling HD to other resolutions, and upscaling SDDVDs.


Erik

How about form factor, interface, cables and most importantly a remote. Not to talk about the fact that it is a "play station". Except for tube electronics I don't think any CE equipment ships today without a remote.

Afterall what is the difference between a HTPC and a PC like CE player (say Tosh A1) ?

Form factor? I keep seeing BD prototypes and on the market disc player designs that aren't boxes, and they are still considered CE equipment.

So, if Sony packages it in a more traditional retail box with a remote and cables it suddenly transforms into a piece of CE equipment?

Seems like something Sony could do in about three days if they wanted to. A little longer if you insist it be stuck in a box form factor.

Gary

How about because going neutral would only prolong the war and reduce total sales? Assuming current players won't read TL51 discs, Disney would be selling into a zero-unit market. And faced with the requirement to buy a new player to use Disney discs, HD DVD buyers are probably more likely to buy a Blu-ray player instead, which would give them access all of Disney's (and Fox's and Sony's) previously-released titles, rather than awaiting Disney to release new TL51 discs.

Do you always count your chickens before they're hatched?

Sony's MiniDisc was also very popular in Japan. Do you have the same sales breakdown for stand alone players in North America?

Minidisc competed with itself as a follow-on to the compact disc; either you felt it was worth it or you didn't. I think these stats are worth a second look in that they represent the state of things on one of the primary three fronts of this format war. HD DVD player sales represented ~5% of the HD player market in Japan this Christmas. And that doesn't include the PS3 (another ~500k).

On the side, Minidisc survived (and did decently) in several markets outside of Japan as well, but that's a different story. CD's also did well I'm told, and I think globally in their case.

See the new "Format Battle: Content Scorecard" thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9499796).

I have to say, I love the idea of taking a sig and turning it into a thread. I appreciate you doing this as I never truly understood your sig before. So it turns out your scorecard is for content that isn't available on HD discs. What is the scorecard for actual content I can buy in HD-DVD or BD?

One of the things I told the folks in the Blu-Ray booth at CES is that there just isn't much Blu-Ray exclusive content I want to own. There's more on the HD-DVD side. Of course that's just me. I'm sure there are other folks who feel the opposite.

Minidisc competed with itself as a follow-on to the compact disc; either you felt it was worth it or you didn't. I think these stats are worth a second look in that they represent the state of things on one of the primary three fronts of this format war. HD DVD player sales represented ~5% of the HD player market in Japan this Christmas. And that doesn't include the PS3 (another ~500k).

On the side, Minidisc survived (and did decently) in several markets outside of Japan as well, but that's a different story. CD's also did well I'm told, and I think globally in their case.

I'm familiar with the history of the MiniDisc and it's place in the Sony Pantheon of format launches. I'm also aware that just because a format does well in Japan it does not mean it will do well elsewhere.

Does anyone know the sales breakdown for stand alone HD players in North America? I believe HD-DVD sold a lot more stand alone players last year than BD did.

Ummm, the PS3 certainly costs up to many hundreds more in build and development costs than a Toshiba. What does that say about Sony?That they've made billions of dollars selling game consoles below cost while profiting handsomely on the console sales? It's simply good strategy that Sony is able to leverage that business model to not only sell lots of PS3 games but also to launch a new format with many other benefits.

Afterall what is the difference between a HTPC and a PC like CE player (say Tosh A1) ?Is this a trick question? Clearly the ability to run PC software is a fairly obvious difference.

Rdjam, why don't you give him some tips on how to sound like a faux format fan - afterall no reason to keep your wisdom on the matter all to yourself!



I'm not sure what you mean.

But Toshiba indicated they are looking to submit for ratification in the fourth quarter, and Amir has backed this up as well.
Hmm, you guys are really trying hard to go personal with the cheesy putdowns, huh?

Meet me on the high road when you get bored of it...

"Rings" info from the "News Thread"
A source close to the matter gave us a few details of the upcoming release, these include:

* Main feature will be a single DL disc on both HD DVD and Blu-ray. (no word if it will be a TotalHD disc)
* The movies will be the Theatrical Versions of each film. Yes you heard it right.
* Both discs will be encoded using VC1
* These will be the first titles to use Dolby TrueHD 7.1 Audio *crosses fingers for 24bit*
* Due to bandwidth constraints, as of now there will be no IME like features.


Hmm.. How long have we been hearing that 30mbps and 30GB is "good enough" ??? The Java stuff may not be ready for BD, but the HDi IME features can't be used for lack of resources.

b2b

Form factor? I keep seeing BD prototypes and on the market disc player designs that aren't boxes, and they are still considered CE equipment.

So, if Sony packages it in a more traditional retail box with a remote and cables it suddenly transforms into a piece of CE equipment?

Seems like something Sony could do in about three days if they wanted to. A little longer if you insist it be stuck in a box form factor.

Gary
I reckon I can make one of those in the fab lab at my work-place.

600 USD PS3 + HDMI cable + CE form factor = 1000 bucks. Who's in? :D

Dont hold back, you know you want it. I can send the WAF through the roof with a pink paint job for a 100 bucks more.

Is this a trick question? Clearly the ability to run PC software is a fairly obvious difference.

Ofcourse. But a HTPC (say used for movies) may not be intended to run PC software anyway (though it can). The basic difference is, I'd say, in look & feel.

PS3, I beleive, is a game console in that respect ....

Form factor?

Yes. Look at all the long threads in HTPC forum about CE player like cases.

"Rings" info from the "News Thread"


Hmm.. How long have we been hearing that 30mbps and 30GB is "good enough" ??? The Java stuff may not be ready for BD, but the HDi IME features can't be used for lack of resources.

b2b

Oh boy. You read rdjam's link to

HD-INSIDER News, Rumors, and Inside Info.

that said

Due to bandwidth constraints, as of now there will be no IME like features.

And that means that 30mb/sec isn't enough? Aren't you getting a little ahead of yourself? I'd like to see some additional information on this as it becomes available.

Due to bandwidth constraints, as of now there will be no IME like features.

And that means that 30mb/sec isn't enough? Aren't you getting a little ahead of yourself? I'd like to see some additional information on this as it becomes available.Looks pretty clear to me ("Due to bandwidth constraints"). Unless you think 48Mbps is the constraint! :)

Of course, we can wait for more info.

From my post in the news thread.

Netflix launches 1,000-title online movie feature (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlebusiness.aspx?type=ousiv&storyID=2007-01-16T163524Z_01_N11457284_RTRIDST_0_BUSINESSPRO-NETFLIX-DOWNLOAD-DC.XML&from=business)

Here is the twist ...

Online movie viewing time is awarded to Netflix subscribers based on their rental plans, with entry-level subscribers getting six hours per month and those with the most popular plans--three DVDS at a time-- getting 18 hours per month.

Looks like download services are getting more mainstream.

Will Netflix do to HiDef DVD what Napster did to SACD/DVD-A ?

How about form factor, interface, cables and most importantly a remote. Not to talk about the fact that it is a "play station". Except for tube electronics I don't think any CE equipment ships today without a remote.

Afterall what is the difference between a HTPC and a PC like CE player (say Tosh A1) ?

Given it's market dominance, the PS brand hardly needed gaming cred. reinforcement, so the typical console form-factor seems not only redundant, but blurs the focus on BD as a qualitatively superior alternative to DVD. Isn't this the critical marketing point of PS3, not Cell? IMO, Sony should have been consistently focusing their mass-media efforts on clearly identifying BD inclusion as a means for state-of-the-art movie playback, not the potential for ever more interminable Japanese RPG cut-scenes.

Packing in some coupons, and a copy of "Talladega Nights"........but forgetting to include a dedicated remote may have been a necessary pricing compromise, but I don't see how it can do anything but suggest to the average adult consumer that the PS3 really is an overpriced gaming console, properly relegated to the kids TV, ( which most likely isn't even HD capable.)

Sony has produced an incredibly high value product, but I don't think they're doing a very good job of convincing the right people. Having already lost development community exclusives resulting from a market position dictated by necessity, they simply can't afford not to convince Mom and Dad that connecting this box to the best set in the house is worth the price of admission for state-of-the-art entertainment presentation. Doesn't a higher price-point naturally tend to skew older demographically? Anyway, I've seen a great many TV ads for the PS3 that make no mention of HD movie playback, but show footage of game titles, most of which won't be available for months.

I wanted to pass along some numbers that studiotan posted in the content thread Talk started. I thought they were pretty interesting.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9502589#post9502589

Distribution catalog titles available according to IMDB:

BD

Lions Gate - 479
Sony Pictures - 656
Fox - 763
Disney - 780
WB - 4511
Paramount - 5443

TOTAL - 12632

HD

WB - 4511
Paramount - 5443
Universal - 5239
Bandai - 102

TOTAL - 15295

Does anyone have a scorecard on all of the porn titles? ;)

From my post in the news thread.

Netflix launches 1,000-title online movie feature (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlebusiness.aspx?type=ousiv&storyID=2007-01-16T163524Z_01_N11457284_RTRIDST_0_BUSINESSPRO-NETFLIX-DOWNLOAD-DC.XML&from=business)

Here is the twist ...



Looks like download services are getting more mainstream.

Will Netflix do to HiDef DVD what Napster did to SACD/DVD-A ?

In a word....No.

Their implementation of this service is simply lame and a waste of money. They either need a set top box that connects to your TV, or partner with someone who has one. The problem is that everyone that has a set top box already plans to deliver their own dowanload service.

If NetFlix doesn't get their act together quickly they are at risk of becoming the next BlockBuster.

I wanted to pass along some numbers that studiotan posted in the content thread Talk started. I thought they were pretty interesting.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9502589#post9502589

Distribution catalog titles available according to IMDB:

BD

Lions Gate - 479
Sony Pictures - 656
Fox - 763
Disney - 780
WB - 4511
Paramount - 5443

TOTAL - 12632

HD

WB - 4511
Paramount - 5443
Universal - 5239
Bandai - 102

TOTAL - 15295

Does anyone have a scorecard on all of the porn titles? ;)

Don't know what search he was using but Sony (Columbia Pictures) has way more than 656 catalog titles...

As a distributor Columbia has 4221 titles listed (don't know how many are still current).
As a production company it has 2926 titles.

b2b

Fox - 763


20th Century Fox + the MGM catalogs are only 763?

I think some better research needs to be done.

MGM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM)


As of the present day, Warner Bros. (through subsidiary Turner Entertainment) owns the rights to the pre-1986 MGM film library. MGM itself owns nearly all of its own post-1986 library, most of the post-1952 United Artists catalog (although it also includes a tiny fraction of pre-1952 UA material), a majority of the Orion Pictures film and television library (which includes material from predecessors American International Pictures, Heatter-Quigley Productions, and Filmways) and the pre-1996 Samuel Goldwyn library.


But, to aid HD DVD here:

Paramount (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramount_Pictures)

EMKA/NBC Universal owns 750 of Paramount's pre-1948 sound features, except for a few feature films that either ended up in U.M.&M./NTA's possession, or had been retained by Paramount due to other rights issues (such as The Miracle of Morgan's Creek).




Gary

Don't know what search he was using but Sony (Columbia Pictures) has way more than 656 catalog titles...

As a distributor Columbia has 4221 titles listed (don't know how many are still current).
As a production company it has 2926 titles.

b2b

And where the hell is MGM (who owns the video rights to several studios as well)???

20th Century Fox + the MGM catalogs are only 763?

I think some better research needs to be done.

MGM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM)




Gary

Has anyone done this tally elsewhere? I'd love to see what the actual numbers come in at from both sides.

Has anyone done this tally elsewhere? I'd love to see what the actual numbers come in at from both sides.

You'd think there would be a web site that listed it.

Hmm.. How long have we been hearing that 30mbps and 30GB is "good enough" ??? The Java stuff may not be ready for BD, but the HDi IME features can't be used for lack of resources. Ouch. :D Once again, the cold hard facts of reality rain down on the HD-DVD parade.

20th Century Fox + the MGM catalogs are only 763?

I think some better research needs to be done.

Gary

MGM was left out altogether. Everything pre-1986 is now controlled by Warner.

b2b

Has anyone done this tally elsewhere? I'd love to see what the actual numbers come in at from both sides.

Windows calculator and IMDB are your friends... :)

b2b

MGM was left out altogether. Everything pre-1986 is now controlled by Warner.


And Universal owns the Paramount catalog before 1956.

Gary

And Universal owns the Paramount catalog before 1956.

Gary

All of that stuff is so tangled up only the companies that own the rights (and their lawyers) could tell you for sure. At any rate a lot of titles are never going to show up on HD discs anytime soon, so going into an involved "head count" is more or less pointless for the time being. There are still a huge number that haven't even made it to DVD yet.

b2b

However many films MGM does or does not own in terms of IMDB, the consortium Sony led to purchase the company was in pursuit of 4000+ films. So... from *somewhere*, this entity has control over thousands of films. Be it the Universal Artists catalog, or whatever.

Entertainment firms have been vying for MGM to get its library of more than 4,000 films, which includes the James Bond, Pink Panther and Rocky titles.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/13/news/fortune500/twx_mgm/index.htm

The Java stuff may not be ready for BD, but the HDi IME features can't be used for lack of resources.

b2b
Well, if you are right, BD is also out of resources: talent, engineering and whatever else is causing them to trail HD DVD so far behind in interactivity that pretty soon, they might just fall behind DVD with simulated PiP and such :p.

You see, anyone can have a sharp tongue...

Well, if you are right, BD is also out of resources: talent, engineering and whatever else is causing them to trail HD DVD so far behind in interactivity that pretty soon, they might just fall behind DVD with simulated PiP and such :p.

You see, anyone can have a sharp tongue...

So what you're saying is... that you don't dispute the bandwidth failing.

So what you're saying is... that you don't dispute the bandwidth failing.

Do you dispute the bandwith failing for all the BD releases that don't include 20/48 or 24/48 sound? Or is that a total disc space failing?

Well, if you are right, BD is also out of resources: talent, engineering and whatever else is causing them to trail HD DVD so far behind in interactivity that pretty soon, they might just fall behind DVD with simulated PiP and such :p.

You see, anyone can have a sharp tongue...

I know you are just trying to make a point Amir, but should you not rise above it?

If not, then you are no better than half of the fanboys on this website blu-ray or HD DVD. I would expect better from the VP of a division in MS.

Is this a trick question? Clearly the ability to run PC software is a fairly obvious difference.

I think when you take the context of that post in to account (the PS3 is not a CE deck), Nataraj's point was that calling a game console a CE playback deck is about the same as equating a HTPC to a CE deck like the A2. They are different animals.

And actually your point reinforces this: a HTPC plays other software (PC programs) as does the PS3 (games). Just because they also play movies doesn't automagically qualify them as CE devices in the sense that most folks think of them.

Minidisc competed with itself as a follow-on to the compact disc..

MiniDisc was actually a competetor to cassettes as well, since it was also a recordable format ... but by the time they were promoting it in the US, CDR was just about taking off. Infact I bought a MD player only to return it and buy a CDRW drive instead.

Well, if you are right, BD is also out of resources: talent, engineering and whatever else is causing them to trail HD DVD so far behind in interactivity that pretty soon, they might just fall behind DVD with simulated PiP and such :p.

You see, anyone can have a sharp tongue...

HD-DVD is like a guy buying a new small compact car and when he goes to load up the wife and 3 kids for a long vacation he discovers there isn't enough room for everybody and their luggage (HDi). Either one of the kids (lossless audio) or the luggage (HDi) gets left at home or he goes and trades the undersized car for mini-van (Blu-Ray)...

You see, not everybody is fooled by the "smaller and slower" is better than "faster and bigger" propaganda... :)

b2b

HD-DVD is like a guy buying a new small compact car and when he goes to load up the wife and 3 kids for a long vacation he discovers there isn't enough room for everybody and their luggage (HDi). Either one of the kids (lossless audio) or the luggage (HDi) gets left at home or he goes and trades the undersized car for mini-van (Blu-Ray)...

You see, not everybody is fooled by the "smaller and slower" is better than "faster and bigger" propaganda... :)

b2b
Bluray is like a guy buying a small compact car and when he goes to load up the wife and 3 kids for a long vacation he discovers that the advertised seats weren't ready yet so the entire family sits on the floor, there is no stereo system, just a mono cassette player taped to the dashboard, there is no radio for communication as it was an option listed in all the promotional material but not available yet, there was no space because the bigger trunk is not yet in widespread production, the automatic tranmission control system is still at 1.0 so he has to use a clutch and he's not sure if the car can be upgraded to 1.1 so he can get rid of the clutch, and it has clouded stained glass windows and windshield because the manufacturer says it's "better"...

So he gets pissed off, returns the Bluray car for a "loaded" HD DVD car, at HALF the price, WITH 5.1 surround decoding of all advanced formats, that CAN PLAY CDs too (unlike the Sony car), that not only has a radio but internet access also, has a PiP dashboard system that can show him where he is going and even a reversing camera, has a beautiful crystal clear windshield (VC1) that he can see through properly, and he pre-prdered the optional 4th row seating (TL51) to carry some extra friends also.

Not everyone is fooled by the false advertising and promotion of a bunch of features that aren't ready yet, aren't in production, or will never make it into production (as in BDJ 1.1 and 2.0, decoding of TruHD, DTS-HD and DD+, Network ports that actually do something, 25 Gig discs being 80% of available titles, AVC encoding to start being the standard in April 2007, Basic BDJ 1.0 being the standard until June 2007, PiP being faked because most Bluray players can't do the real thing, etc etc etc etc....)

;) ;) :p

Better yet, they stuck a Piano in the front passenger seat so that customers could get the "real lossless" sound of music because they didn't have the ability to playback losslessly compressed music... :p

(welcome to the "your momma" school of format debates, a new chapter...) ;)

Bluray is like a guy buying a small compact car and when he goes to load up the wife and 3 kids for a long vacation he discovers there is no stereo system, just a mono cassette player taped to the dashboard, there is no radio for communication as it was an option listed in all the promotional material but not available yet, there was no space because the bigger trunk is not yet in widespread production, the automatic tranmission control system is still at 1.0 so he has to use a clutch and he's not sure if the car can be upgraded to 1.1 so he can get rid of the clutch, and it has clouded stained glass windows and windshield because the manufacturer says it's "better"...

So he gets pissed off, returns the Bluray car for a "loaded" HD DVD car, at HALF the price, WITH 5.1 surround decoding of all advanced formats, that CAN PLAY CDs too (unlike the Sony car), that not only has a radio but internet access also, has a PiP dashboard system that can show him where he is going and even a reversing camera, has a beautiful crystal clear windshield (VC1) that he can see through properly, and he spec'd the optional 4th row seating (TL51) to carry some extra friends also.

Yea, but what about the minor problem that when he wants to use that fancy audio system the PiP dashboard system (HDi) quits working because the engine is too small for both of them to work at the same time... ;)

b2b

Does anyone know the sales breakdown for stand alone HD players in North America? I believe HD-DVD sold a lot more stand alone players last year than BD did.
I'm sure they did. BD standalone numbers are skewed right now because of the lower price of the PS3. Most people, given the choice of paying $600 - $1200 for just a BD player vs. paying $500 or $600 for a BD player that is also a gaming platform and Linux computer, will pick the latter option. IOW, most people currently in the market for a BD player would likely buy the PS3, even if they had no intention of making that much use of the gaming or computing abilities. At least I know I would.

Not everyone is fooled by the false advertising and promotion of a bunch of features that aren't ready yet, aren't in production, or will never make it into production (as in BDJ 1.1 and 2.0, decoding of TruHD, DTS-HD and DD+, Network ports that actually do something, 25 Gig discs being 80% of available titles, AVC encoding to start being the standard in April 2007, Basic BDJ 1.0 being the standard until June 2007, PiP being faked because most Bluray players can't do the real thing, etc etc etc etc....)

;) ;) :p

At least the owners of 1G Blu-Ray players can be assured they can view the movie on all new 50GB discs that are coming. Sorry to say that might not be the case for 1G (and 2G ?) HD-DVD owners...
A spokesperson for Toshiba of America told BetaNews late yesterday that the company is still researching whether a new, three-layer HD DVD disc format it may propose -- the existence of which was carefully leaked at last week's CES -- will work in the first generation on HD DVD players, including its own.

"Since the disc is not standardized yet," the spokesperson told BetaNews, "we are researching whether it is applicable to the current HD DVD players."
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/D_oh.jpg/250px-D_oh.jpg

b2b

Better yet, they stuck a Piano in the front passenger seat so that customers could get the "real lossless" sound of music because they didn't have the ability to playback losslessly compressed music... :p

(welcome to the "your momma" school of format debates, a new chapter...) ;)
Giggle! ;) ;)

They either need a set top box that connects to your TV, or partner with someone who has one. The problem is that everyone that has a set top box already plans to deliver their own dowanload service.

That is true. They need a way to get the movie to the TV from the PC. Afterall a vast majority of people don't use HTPC.

They could make their mvoies streamable using Media extender. Atleast that way they can target XBox users ...

Yea, but what about the minor problem that when he wants to use that fancy audio system the PiP dashboard system (HDi) quits working because the engine is too small for both of them to work at the same time... ;)

b2b
That's an odd question considering you know that the HD DVD players have a LOT more horsepower under the hood than the clunky BR cars... ;)

Makes me wonder if the search for TL51 doesn't have just as much to do with alleviating bandwidth constraints as it does space constraints.

HD-DVD is like a guy buying a new small compact car and when he goes to load up the wife and 3 kids for a long vacation he discovers there isn't enough room for everybody and their luggage (HDi). Either one of the kids (lossless audio) or the luggage (HDi) gets left at home or he goes and trades the undersized car for mini-van (Blu-Ray)...

You see, not everybody is fooled by the "smaller and slower" is better than "faster and bigger" propaganda... :)

b2b
Uh, You have no idea what you're talking about. PiP is not HDi. No discs will "leave HDi behind" since they wouldn't have a menu then. Consider that the entire HDi for "Tokyo Drift", which has a huge number of functions, and includes all sounds and still images (like production photos etc), is 180MB, or 0.6% of the available disc space. Please, if you're going to make silly analogies, at least get the terminology right.

Uh, You have no idea what you're talking about. PiP is not HDi. No discs will "leave HDi behind" since they wouldn't have a menu then. Consider that the entire HDi for "Tokyo Drift", which has a huge number of functions, and includes all sounds and still images (like production photos etc), is 180MB, or 0.6% of the available disc space. Please, if you're going to make silly analogies, at least get the terminology right.

Well try stuffing video, a couple of lossless audio tracks, "a huge number of functions" of HDi interactive features, all the subtitles, into 30mbps max mux stream and see what gets left lying on the floor... ;)

b2b

And actually your point reinforces this: a HTPC plays other software (PC programs) as does the PS3 (games). Just because they also play movies doesn't automagically qualify them as CE devices in the sense that most folks think of them.But the difference is if you ignore the fact a PS3 plays games and runs Linux it's essentially a CE device, except for a funkier remote and no display on the device. Nonetheless, many people appear to be purchasing the PS3 solely for use as a standalone Blu-ray player. I think it's very unlikely anyone would buy an HTPC solely for use as a standalone Blu-ray or HD DVD player because it is inherently a far more complex environment (in addition to being significantly more expensive, larger, and generally noisier).

- Talk

So he gets pissed off, returns the Bluray car for a "loaded" HD DVD car, at HALF the price, WITH 5.1 surround decoding of all advanced formats, that CAN PLAY CDs too (unlike the Sony car), that not only has a radio but internet access also, has a PiP dashboard system that can show him where he is going and even a reversing camera, has a beautiful crystal clear windshield (VC1) that he can see through properly, and he pre-prdered the optional 4th row seating (TL51) to carry some extra friends also.And then discovers he can only buy gas from 37% of the gas stations he passes, he has to refill more often because his gas tank only holds 60% of what his Blu-ray car did, and there's a good chance he won't be able to find any gas for his car after 2007.

Now how good a choice was that trade-in?

Consider that the entire HDi for "Tokyo Drift", which has a huge number of functions, and includes all sounds and still images (like production photos etc), is 180MB, or 0.6% of the available disc space.Does this mean that HD DVD player requires more than 180MB preload memory, or are those data muxed together in a EVO file to minimize the memory requirement?

But the difference is if you ignore the fact a PS3 plays games and runs Linux it's essentially a CE device, except for a funkier remote and no display on the device. Nonetheless, many people appear to be purchasing the PS3 solely for use as a standalone Blu-ray player. I think it's very unlikely anyone would buy an HTPC solely for use as a standalone Blu-ray or HD DVD player because it is inherently a far more complex environment (in addition to being significantly more expensive, larger, and generally noisier).

- Talk

As I said: "...CE devices in the sense that most folks think of them."

Form factor, lack of display, controller-as-remote control, etc... make these game consoles to most folks. Perhaps some significant subset of the PS3 buying population might be purchasing it just for movies (although I've seen no direct proof of this) and have no problem considering it another CE device, but that number pales in comparison to the CE-device buying public at large. The point stands that most folks don't consider a game console to be a typical CE A/V device. I understand that Sony (and MS) would like to change that perception with thier current consoles, but that job is not yet done for the majority of the 100 million U.S. households that have a DVD player and would consider purchasing a HD/BR deck.

Incidentally, I've seen HTPC's with front-panel dispalys, CE-form factor cases, quiet power supplies, integtrated IR receivers with bundled remotes, that are much more CE-like than the PS3, so the "inherantly" portion of your post is incorrect.

And then discovers he can only buy gas from 37% of the gas stations he passes, he has to refill more often because his gas tank only holds 60% of what his Blu-ray car did, and there's a good chance he won't be able to find any gas for his car after 2007.

Now how good a choice was that trade-in?
Actually the reverse - he realizes that he can buy gas from every single DVD, CD and HD DVD gas station he sees - but he notices a lot of broken-down Bluray cars abandoned outside the CD stations... :p

And then discovers he can only buy gas from 37% of the gas stations he passes, he has to refill more often because his gas tank only holds 60% of what his Blu-ray car did, and there's a good chance he won't be able to find any gas for his car after 2007.

Now how good a choice was that trade-in?

Or at least after 2007 some of the gas will require a new larger fuel tank that the company is unsure whether they can retrofit in the current cars.

:eek:

RDjam, give me a break. There are two Blu-ray players (and one combo player) which don't play CD's, and one of them can stream CD's from the home network. Do you actually consider that disadvantage to be comparable to the fact that 70% of last year's most popular DVD's are from studios with no plans to support HD DVD?

And then discovers he can only buy gas from 37% of the gas stations he passes, he has to refill more often because his gas tank only holds 60% of what his Blu-ray car did, and there's a good chance he won't be able to find any gas for his car after 2007.

Now how good a choice was that trade-in?

Or maybe all the BD car companies except for Sony go out of business because few of their potential customers could afford to buy gas if they overspent on their overpriced BD car, so they went out and got a Sony hybrid (ie PS3) or a HD DVD electric (ie Toshiba) or an el cheapo Chinese subcompact?

RDjam, give me a break. There are two Blu-ray players (and one combo player) which don't play CD's, and one of them can stream CD's from the home network. Do you actually consider that disadvantage to be comparable to the fact that 70% of last year's most popular DVD's are from studios with no plans to support HD DVD?

Well ... the 'most popular' Blu-Ray player can't upscale SD DVD's, right? I think that's a pretty big deal ... no?

What in the world is with all of these analogies here?

As of now, the word is HD DVD doesn't have the bandwidth to include IME features with Lord of the Rings. It's not about cars, gas, or anything else; it's about bandwidth.

What in the world is with all of these analogies here?

As of now, the word is HD DVD doesn't have the bandwidth to include IME features with Lord of the Rings. It's not about cars, gas, or anything else; it's about bandwidth.


where does "the word" come from? i must have missed it... ;)

As of now, the word is HD DVD doesn't have the bandwidth to include IME features with Lord of the Rings. It's not about cars, gas, or anything else; it's about bandwidth.
The rumor site everyone's getting this info from never specified that HD DVD didn't have enough bandwidth. It said due to bandwidth constraints, neither would have IME. The information was for both formats, yet BD supporters only apply it to HD DVD for some reason. Do you have other info that points to just HD DVD having the issue, or are you making an assumption?

The specific quote is
Due to bandwidth constraints, as of now there will be no IME like features.

where does "the word" come from? i must have missed it... ;)

http://hd-insider.com/2007/01/17/lord-of-the-rings-hd-dvdbluray-details-trickling-out.aspx

The rumor site everyone's getting this info from never specified that HD DVD didn't have enough bandwidth. It said due to bandwidth constraints, neither would have IME. Do you have other info that points to just HD DVD having the issue, or are you making an assumption?

Of course I'm making an assumption; do you think it's an illogical one? BD has much more bandwidth to play with, and we already know that it will be utilizing the same VC-1 encode for video as the HD DVD version, vs using an MPEG-2 encode. So... yeah, I don't think it's BD that's constrained here for bandwidth, in the context of this claim.

What in the world is with all of these analogies here?

As of now, the word is HD DVD doesn't have the bandwidth to include IME features with Lord of the Rings. It's not about cars, gas, or anything else; it's about bandwidth.
So the BD car needs 4 lanes instead of 1, because the car needed more width because of it OLD tyme Mpeg2 engine :p

where does "the word" come from? i must have missed it... ;)
xb had a dream last night ;)

Of course I'm making an assumption; do you think it's an illogical one? BD has much more bandwidth to play with, and we already know that it will be utilizing the same VC-1 encode for video as the HD DVD version, vs using an MPEG-2 encode. So... yeah, I don't think it's BD that's constrained here for bandwidth, in the context of this claim.
Ok, then I suppose the logical explanation for the lack of IME on the BD version is the lack of secondary video support in the current players. Would you agree with that?

The end result is the same - neither format gets IME for these titles.

xb had a dream last night ;)

And that dream was the news item rdjam posted in the news thread. :rolleyes:

(rdjam, do you even think before you post? This is *your* news item we're discussing here.)

Ok, then I suppose the logical explanation for the lack of IME on the BD version is the lack of secondary video support in the current players. Would you agree with that?

The end result is the same - neither format gets IME for these titles.

Well, if it's supposed to release in 2008, then no I don't agree. I just think it'll be left off since the HD DVD version isn't getting one.

The end results are the same, but I don't think I'm alone in acknowledging that it's the reasons that are significant. For BD it's essentially going to be laziness, and for HD DVD it's the limitations of the format.

Well ... the 'most popular' Blu-Ray player can't upscale SD DVD's, right? I think that's a pretty big deal ... no?No. I suspect that the vast majority of PS3 consumers already had an upconverting DVD player, so many may choose to keep that. Many others have TV's which upconvert, and reports are that a PS3 coupled with an average upconverting TV produces a very, very good DVD image. And finally, multiple Sony sources have been quoted as saying they expect that a future firmware update will provide SD upconversion (the hardware in the PS3 is clearly capable of supporting it given how little processor/graphical overhead legacy DVD requires relative to Blu-ray).

Well, if it's supposed to release in 2008, then no I don't agree. I just think it'll be left off since the HD DVD version isn't getting one.

The end results are the same, but I don't think I'm alone in acknowledging that it's the reasons that are significant.
It's not like neutral studios haven't released a title on both formats and given one format more features than the other in the past. Look at Superman Returns - the HD DVD version had a lossless audio track (and an SD DVD version), while the BD version only had DD. Why wouldn't New Line favor BD by giving them the IME-type features? Isn't New Line a divison of Warner Brothers (the company that put out Superman Returns?) History has shown that they are willing to favor one format over the other in terms of features, so why wouldn't they do that here?

For BD it's essentially going to be laziness, and for HD DVD it's the limitations of the format.
Please. That's a stretch, don't you think? So now it's down to laziness, huh? Your assumptions are getting more and more ridiculous.

And then discovers he can only buy gas from 37% of the gas stations he passes...

You guys are so funny.

Lets see the BluRay car can be filled in some 100 stations across the US. That is only 0.1% of all the stations. Besides it costs some 10 tims the cost of a normal car. I'll leave it to you to figure what this normal car is ...

http://hd-insider.com/2007/01/17/lord-of-the-rings-hd-dvdbluray-details-trickling-out.aspx



Of course I'm making an assumption; do you think it's an illogical one? BD has much more bandwidth to play with, and we already know that it will be utilizing the same VC-1 encode for video as the HD DVD version, vs using an MPEG-2 encode. So... yeah, I don't think it's BD that's constrained here for bandwidth, in the context of this claim.

oh, *that* site... :eek:


i'll wait until the title comes out but i would be willing to bet that if it didn't have all the fancy ime features it would be due to trying to keep neutral between bd and hd dvd not due to bandwidth constraints...jmo

It's not like neutral studios haven't released a title on both formats and given one format more features than the other in the past. Look at Superman Returns - the HD DVD version had a lossless audio track (and an SD DVD version), while the BD version only had DD. Why wouldn't New Line favor BD by giving them the IME-type features? Isn't New Line a divison of Warner Brothers (the company that put out Superman Returns?) History has shown that they are willing to favor one format over the other in terms of features, so why wouldn't they do that here?

Uh....????

Steeb, I mean seriously the answers are in your own post. They most certainly would favor one format over the other - and for New Line I have little doubt it's HD DVD if it's anything, due to the Warner affiliation. Now, the thing is though that since it would be simply *too* outrageous to gimp LotR BD with a lossy audio track, I think that both releases will be identical (except perhaps the means via lossless is delivered).

As for the aforementioned extras, you're absolutely right - they could favor Blu-ray if they wanted to and include them. But hey, the reality is I don't think they're inclined to do so. At least not today, in Jan 2007. Maybe it'll change before actual release.

Uh....????

Steeb, I mean seriously the answers are in your own post. They most certainly would favor one format over the other - and for New Line I have little doubt it's HD DVD if it's anything, due to teh Warner affiliation. Now, the thing is though that since it would be simply *too* outrageous to gimp LotR BD with a lossy audio track, I think that both releases will be identical (except perhaps the means via lossless is delivered).

As for the aforementuioned extras, you're absolutely right - they could favor Blu-ray if they wanted to and include them. But hey, the reality is I don't think they're inclined to do so. At least not today, in Jan 2007. Maybe it'll change before actual release.
Why do you think a neutral studio would favor HD DVD over BD? What are you basing this assumption on?

Why do you think a neutral studio would favor HD DVD over BD? What are you basing this assumption on?

Warner is "neutral," but they have a preference. If HD DVD wins, there's a lot in it for them in terms of royalties. They support Blu-ray, and I think that support will in fact improve, but things like leaving out TrueHD when an LCPM track would cost them next to nothing to include... and the 'Total HD' move that seeks to preserve (and expand on) their royalty position in a world where BD is acknowledged as a fixture, I think both point to Warners interests in securing a slice of the royalty pie one way or the other.

In fact, when they originally announced BD support, I think many were surprised by the move for the very financial ties to DVD/HD DVD I describe above.

Warner is "neutral," but they have a preference. If HD DVD wins, there's a lot in it for them in terms of royalties. They support Blu-ray, and I think that support will in fact improve, but things like leaving out TrueHD when an LCPM track would cost them next to nothing to include... and the 'Total HD' move that seeks to preserve (and expand on) their royalty position in a world where BD is acknowledged as a fixture, I think both point to Warners interests in securing a slice of the royalty pie one way or the other.

In fact, when they originally announced BD support, I think many were surprised by the move for the very financial ties to DVD/HD DVD I describe above.
I read a lot of "I think" but not a lot of hard evidence. Seems like you're drawing your own conclusions and making a lot of assumptions.

I read a lot of "I think" but not a lot of hard evidence. Seems like you're drawing your own conclusions and making a lot of assumptions.

It's just my own analysis - no different than that you would receive from anyone else save for the content itself. Judge it for yourself, and see if it makes sense.

I'm just answering your questions; it seems to me you've lost track of what your goal in asking those questions even was. Let's start over like this: you said Warner is neutral, and you pointed out that they didn't include a TrueHD track in the Blu-ray release of Superman Returns. Why do you think that is? Are you saying you believe the move is due to technical reasons, rather than ambivalence towards Blu-ray?

And ultimately, how in the world does this relate back to IME features on LotR? I'm here saying that the Blu-ray version won't have any likely due to Warner/New Line's slant towards HD DVD, and I guess you see something to argue with in that. Why?

That's right, but I'm a smart guy.
And humble, too.

Why do you think that is? Are you saying you believe the move is due to technical reasons, rather than ambivalence towards Blu-ray?
I honestly don't know. It could very well be a technical reason. Until Warner makes a statement (or we get insider info,) we'll probably never know the true reason.

Are you suggesting it's not possible that the reason was a technical (and not political) one? It's not like BD hasn't been woefully behind HD DVD when it comes to extra features/interactivity (which would explain why the Warner titles that have IME have not been released on BD.)

Either way, I don't know the true reason, and neither do you. Hell, it could be a combination of the two. We don't know and may never know.

And humble, too.

Self-assured.

I honestly don't know. It could very well be a technical reason. Until Warner makes a statement (or we get insider info,) we'll probably never know the true reason.

Are you suggesting it's not possible that the reason was a technical (and not political) one? It's not like BD hasn't been woefully behind HD DVD when it comes to extra features/interactivity (which would explain why the Warner titles that have IME have not been released on BD.)

Either way, I don't know the true reason, and neither do you. Hell, it could be a combination of the two. We don't know and may never know.

Yes, I'm *absolutely* suggestng the reason wasn't technical.

Steeb, maybe you'll never know whether the reason was technical or not, but I can assure you that BD is 100% capable of having a VC-1 video stream run concurrent with a TrueHD audio track. Warner simply didn't want to hassle with redoing the audio, which is why I mentioned LCPM vs a TrueHD re-encode; an LCPM track would have been the easiest of the easies for them to do.

Steeb, maybe you'll never know whether the reason was technical or not, but I can assure you that BD is 100% capable of having a VC-1 video stream run concurrent with a TrueHD audio track. Warner simply didn't want to hassle with redoing the audio, which is why I mentioned LCPM vs a TrueHD re-encode; an LCPM track would have been the easiest of the easies for them to do.
I never said BD was incapable of having a VC-1 video stream running witha DTHD track, did I? Please don't put words in my mouth. Are you suggesting that there aren't other technical issues that could have prevented (or hindered) the use of DTHD on that release? I honestly don't know. Can you honestly say that you're certain that you know the real reason? If so, how? Do you have insider info or are you again just drawing your own conclusions and presenting them as fact?

When the reasons aren't technical - which they're not - that means they're not technical. There are only so many options to choose from in that non-technical category.

Like I said, the most obvious/likely/least conspiratorial is simply that Warner did not want to go to through the time/trouble/expense of redoing the audio for Blu-ray. That's because HD DVD is their base development platform and they're not going too far out of their way otherwise. The reason I mentioned LCPM is because IMO it's almost a non-effort to include it in lieu.

Warner came over to Blu-ray from HD DVD; their starting point alone should help indicate to you where their heart truly lies in terms of format preference.

When the reasons aren't technical - which they're not - that means they're not technical. There are only so many options to choose from in that non-technical category.

But how do you know that the reasons aren't technical? Do you have inside info or are you drawing conclusions? If you're an insider, why not make it obvious like others do? If you're not, and you're just making assumptions, why post it as fact?

But how do you know that the reasons aren't technical? Do you have inside info or are you drawing conclusions? If you're an insider, why not make it obvious like others do? If you're not, and you're just making assumptions, why post it as fact?

This isn't inside information; anyone that is familiar with the situation is aware that the lack of TrueHD on the BD Superman Returns came from laziness/cheapness on the part of Warner.

If you need an 'insider' to verify this for you, just post the question in the Insiders thread. I swear it's probably already been asked and answered there sometime in the past though.

This isn't inside information; anyone that is familiar with the situation is aware that the lack of TrueHD on the BD Superman Returns came from laziness/cheapness on the part of Warner.

If you need an 'insider' to verify this for you, just post the question in the Insiders thread. I swear it's probably already been asked and answered there sometime in the past though.
Okay, so it's your assumption, as I thought. Thanks for clarifying.

Whatever you want to believe.

I never said BD was incapable of having a VC-1 video stream running witha DTHD track, did I? Please don't put words in my mouth. Are you suggesting that there aren't other technical issues that could have prevented (or hindered) the use of DTHD on that release? I honestly don't know. Can you honestly say that you're certain that you know the real reason? If so, how? Do you have insider info or are you again just drawing your own conclusions and presenting them as fact?

Maybe they're doing PiP on the Blu-Ray release so they're just simply out of space due to multiple encodes (even in VC1) :p

Uh, You have no idea what you're talking about. PiP is not HDi. No discs will "leave HDi behind" since they wouldn't have a menu then. Consider that the entire HDi for "Tokyo Drift", which has a huge number of functions, and includes all sounds and still images (like production photos etc), is 180MB, or 0.6% of the available disc space. Please, if you're going to make silly analogies, at least get the terminology right. don't you know he's here for silly analogies, real life experience in actually driving a car (err owning either a HD DVD or Blu-ray player) is not required.... :rolleyes:

What in the world is with all of these analogies here?

As of now, the word is HD DVD doesn't have the bandwidth to include IME features with Lord of the Rings. It's not about cars, gas, or anything else; it's about bandwidth. Your assumption, not the worlds..... jumping to conclusions like scared rabbits.... :)

I do agree with the car analogies though.....please make it stop...

No. I suspect that the vast majority of PS3 consumers already had an upconverting DVD player, so many may choose to keep that. Many others have TV's which upconvert, and reports are that a PS3 coupled with an average upconverting TV produces a very, very good DVD image. And finally, multiple Sony sources have been quoted as saying they expect that a future firmware update will provide SD upconversion (the hardware in the PS3 is clearly capable of supporting it given how little processor/graphical overhead legacy DVD requires relative to Blu-ray)."Badges??? We don't need no stinkin' badges???"

"...Upconversion??? Blu-ray don't need no stickin' upconversion"

http://www.darryl.com/badges/

I as a consumer choose HD DVD because of the upconverison capability. Many buying their first HDTV will want a new generation DVD player to go along with it.

A HD DVD with their HD TV that also upconverts standard DVDs and plays CDs is a better choice than a "Play"station without a remote that needs a second DVD player to upconvert or a $1000 + player that won't play CD's. Even more so when its less than half the price.

I may not be the only person that thinks that way.

Well try stuffing video, a couple of lossless audio tracks, "a huge number of functions" of HDi interactive features, all the subtitles, into 30mbps max mux stream and see what gets left lying on the floor... ;)

b2b


Let's see

30mbps* - 11mbps for the VC1 encode = leaves us with 19mbps to play with

40mbps* - 30mbps for the Mpeg2 encode = leaves us with.......

I believe we need more facts on this one.


*format bandwidth numbers provided courtesy of the BDA

Let's see

30mbps* - 11mbps for the VC1 encode = leaves us with 19mbps to play with

40mbps* - 30mbps for the Mpeg2 encode = leaves us with.......

I believe we need more facts on this one.


*format bandwidth numbers provided courtesy of the BDA

...and the fact that some first generation Blu-ray players can't do PiP and they don't have room for pesudo "pip" ala "The Descent".

Oh, maybe the Internet connection that is missing on some of those first generation Blu-ray players has something to do with it , and New Line thinks its just too early to throw those first adopters under the bus yet.

Your assumption, not the worlds..... jumping to conclusions like scared rabbits.... :)

Kosty, this sentence confused the hell out of me. :)

But responding to what I think you meant:

On this topic I'm not assuming anything (such as Steeb thinks I'm doing with Warner on Superman), so much as taking the 'rumor' at face value. We otherwise seem comfortable with it's assertions, and when b2bonez' gave his stark portrayal, Amir didn't refute it so much as take a swipe at BD. The Amir I know and love would have done both if the opportunity was present. ;)

Fair enough, its all based on scarce information anyway.

What the real reasons are may not be the ones cited.


I just liked the "excited bunnies jumping hastily from one conclusion after another visual" :D :eek: :)

Based on 2Channels post a page back on studio content for the two HD formats.

Just a reminder for those that don't know there is a sticky thread devoted to the subject of studio ownership and good movies that have been and are yet to be released in HD DVD or Blu-ray.

that includes a number sources and a master list that shows all studios ownership of top grossing movies and some best guesses on how they lean in the HD DVD vs Blu-ray struggle.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=715977

Let's see

30mbps* - 11mbps for the VC1 encode = leaves us with 19mbps to play with

40mbps* - 30mbps for the Mpeg2 encode = leaves us with.......

I believe we need more facts on this one.Why did you use 11mbps for the VC1 example? Are you confusing average bitrate with peak bitrate, or are you using the unrealistic 11mbps for some other reason? I doubt there is a single movie with VC1 on HD DVD that has peaks for video under 18Mbps.

--Darin

"Badges??? We don't need no stinkin' badges???"

"...Upconversion??? Blu-ray don't need no stickin' upconversion"



I as a consumer choose HD DVD because of the upconverison capability. Many buying their first HDTV will want a new generation DVD player to go along with it.

A HD DVD with their HD TV that also upconverts standard DVDs and plays CDs is a better choice than a "Play"station without a remote that needs a second DVD player to upconvert or a $1000 + player that won't play CD's. Even more so when its less than half the price.

I may not be the only person that thinks that way.

You could get the Panasonic (http://www.fotoconnection.com/vi-57155________Panasonic-DMP-BD10K-Blu-Ray-DMPBD10K.html), that plays CDs, and is less that $1000 (granted not by much) and it has a remote, and it will get advanced audio with a future upgrade.

About the network connection, most people won't even realise it has a ethernet port, let alone wire it in, BD-Live will be better once they move onto wireless transmissions, much easier than wiring in a player where a lot of people don't have an ethernet connection point.

HD DVD players might not even play their own discs (http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/01/toshiba_unsure.html) that will be released in the future, at least with BD you know that you will at least get to see the film regardless of how old you player is, so I don't think HD DVD guys should be talking about what formats their players do and don't play.

i thought BD had a bitrate max of 48 Mbps

40mbps* - 30mbps for the Mpeg2 encode = leaves us with.......


The 40Mbps is the video bandwidth max. The mux maximum for BD is 48Mbps. The difference between BD and HD DVD bandwidth is about the same as LPCM 7.1 96/24 soundtrack.

Gary

i thought BD had a bitrate max of 48 Mbps

Yeah it does, but since when has a fanboy let something as trivial as a fact make them stop.

Why did you use 11mbps for the VC1 example? Are you confusing average bitrate with peak bitrate, or are you using the unrealistic 11mbps for some other reason? I doubt there is a single movie with VC1 on HD DVD that has peaks for video under 18Mbps.

--Darin

Maybe this is one more logical example as to why the HD-DVD group is scrambling to get their higher-bandwidth (1.5x) HD-DVD drives standardized (what about the early HD-DVD adopters?). On an HD-DVD when a single video stream multiplexed with multiple high-quality audio soundtracks, a PIP, multiple subtitles, etc. there probably are times where there just isn't enough sustained bandwidth on the current 1.0x HD-DVD drives to do it all, or at least without sacrificing video/audio quality. Of course, the same problem would occur with BD, but all things being equal (i.e. video/audio codecs), at least the current BD spec. (with higher bandwidth/capacity) allows for more headroom.


(As many of you may know, I preferred BD over HD-DVD early on exactly for the reasons of capacity, bandwidth, and the alleged preference of the computer industry Apple, Dell, etc. to provide a 50GB vs. 30GB optical storage solution ...)

Does this mean that HD DVD player requires more than 180MB preload memory, or are those data muxed together in a EVO file to minimize the memory requirement?Nope. That 180MB is split across about 18 different applications that load and unload at different times (or on command, with the U-Control stuff). The sum of all resources used by all current applications cannot exceed 64MB.

BD has higher bandwidth and larger storage space than HD DVD that's a fact. But all these talk about how this will translate to a better picture and better audio has not materialize in the practical sense of the word.

Nope. That 180MB is split across about 18 different applications that load and unload at different times (or on command, with the U-Control stuff). The sum of all resources used by all current applications cannot exceed 64MB.Thank you for the answer.

One more question. Are those applications dynamically loaded/unloaded during movie playback? For example, in the U-Control, when the user chooses "Storyboard" icon, player will load storyboad application and graphics data from another files on the disc and display it, rather than taking them from preloaded memory? If it reads another file during movie playback, won't it affect to the movie playback because of head seek?

BD has higher bandwidth and larger storage space than HD DVD that's a fact. But all these talk about how this will translate to a better picture and better audio has not materialize in the practical sense of the word.

Well, I would disagree about the "better picture" ... some studios are using the same video encode (but multiplexed differently as per their respective specs.). All other things being equal, I still prefer the (currently available) capacity of BD vs. HD-DVD, vis a vis SIZE and BANDWIDTH.

Check out Sopranos: Season 6-Part 1: I believe that BD could have delivered that 4-disk HD-DVD set as 2 (or maybe 3) BD disks (depending upon the actual a/v encoders utilized).

When you are paying ~100$ for a set, the penny-differential of 4 HD-DVDs vs. 4 BDs is miniscule. But I'd bet that the difference between a 4 HD-DVD set vs. 2 BD set would/could be major.

BD has higher bandwidth and larger storage space than HD DVD that's a fact. But all these talk about how this will translate to a better picture and better audio has not materialize in the practical sense of the word.
Not yet. Its the 'black swan' issue.

Personally, I have great faith in the talents at the studios putting the specs to great use once BD has stabilized its dominance in the high def market.

I think right now, its more important for BD to not be worse than HD in PQ and instead concentrate on consolidating its market position and exclusives.

I as a consumer choose HD DVD because of the upconverison capability.Kosty, all six currently available Blu-ray players other than the PS3 has upconversion, and the PS3 will likely get it within two months. DVD upconversion not only has nothing to do with either format, it is fully supported by all Blu-ray vendors.
Many buying their first HDTV will want a new generation DVD player to go along with it.And if they are buying their first TV today it almost certainly has an upconversion chip in it, further weakening your already feeble argument.

Why did you use 11mbps for the VC1 example? Are you confusing average bitrate with peak bitrate, or are you using the unrealistic 11mbps for some other reason? I doubt there is a single movie with VC1 on HD DVD that has peaks for video under 18Mbps.

--Darin

Hi Darin. 11mbps is an average number. I haven't seen the peak numbers on the latest VC1 encodes. When you add dynamic muxing into the mix the comparisons between formats become more complex. Putting that aside, I was unfair in my post.

I'll leave this alone until we get additional information on LOTR in both formats.

About the network connection, most people won't even realise it has a ethernet port, let alone wire it in, BD-Live will be better once they move onto wireless transmissions, much easier than wiring in a player where a lot of people don't have an ethernet connection point.Oh, like the 60GB PS3 with wifi? The one that probably accounts for 1.6M of the 2M shipped Blu-ray players? Sounds perfect!
HD DVD players might not even play their own discs (http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/01/toshiba_unsure.html) that will be released in the futureHeck, they don't even play some of the current Weinstein titles (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=761498) , they don't even need new TL51 discs for incompatibility!

Let's see

30mbps* - 11mbps for the VC1 encode = leaves us with 19mbps to play with

40mbps* - 30mbps for the Mpeg2 encode = leaves us with.......

I believe we need more facts on this one.


*format bandwidth numbers provided courtesy of the BDA
And later:
Hi Darin. 11mbps is an average number. I haven't seen the peak numbers on the latest VC1 encodes. When you add dynamic muxing into the mix the comparisons between formats become more complex. Putting that aside, I was unfair in my post.

I'll leave this alone until we get additional information on LOTR in both formats.
You can't use ABR. Please don't add dynamic muxing into the mix just yet; it doesn't exist (okay, may be by the time LotR comes out, it may). Also, we were talking about LotR -- and the snippet from that website mentioned that VC-1 is used on both. Anyway, please re-do your simple math! I want to see the result! :)

Also remember that 30Mbps on HD-DVD includes both audio and video. So, please use 48Mbps for apples to apples comparison. And, use peak bit-rate -- you can assume something.

Of course, when it comes to bandwidth and capacity, I think you already know the conclusion! Resistance is futile! :)

[Or we can just wait for more information! I started writing my post before your second post...]

Kosty, all six currently available Blu-ray players other than the PS3 has upconversion, and the PS3 will likely get it within two months. DVD upconversion not only has nothing to do with either format, it is fully supported by all Blu-ray vendors.
And if they are buying their first TV today it almost certainly has an upconversion chip in it, further weakening your already feeble argument.

All the format battle stuff aside, if you're in the market for a BD player and you want great DVD playback, buy the G2 Samsung. If it's not important to you, the PS3 is your best choice.

When you are paying ~100$ for a set, the penny-differential of 4 HD-DVDs vs. 4 BDs is miniscule. But I'd bet that the difference between a 4 HD-DVD set vs. 2 BD set would/could be major.
You think that 2 BD-50's costs LESS to make than 4 HD DVD -30's :)?

Nope.

I know exactly what I said on the matter, and I said it many, many times, so there'll be PAGES of quotes you can supply here.After carefully looking around in the forum archives it does seem that what you stated is that you believed that the lossless audio codecs would not be used as commonly on Blu-ray as on HD DVD. I am not so sure that turned out to be true considering the number of DTS-HD MA movies currently being released on Blu-ray, but regardless I admit you never said anything against lossless audio codecs being used on Blu-ray.


Perhaps it would be better admitting you are wrong?Sure, I was wrong about that. Now rdjam would you be willing to admit that you were wrong about these?

1. HD-A1 decoder being able to output 1080p24 (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7827193&&#post7827193)
2. Sony faking their Vaio Blu-ray demo (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7676628&&#post7676628)
3. Blu-ray companies promising HDMI 1.3 outputs (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7652743&&#post7652743)
4. HD DVD specs mandate decoding of DTS-HD (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7568245&&#post7568245)
5. HD-A1 could decode lossless DTS-HD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7492043&&#post7492043)

rdjam, I am quite willing to admit to mistakes on this forum but I have yet to see you admit even once that you have made a mistake about anything. In fact one time when I admitted I made a mistake when debating with Amir you actually mocked me for that which makes me wonder if you consider the admission of a mistake to be a sign of weakness. Is that what you believe?

Also you recently said that the A2, A20, XA2 and Xbox 360 HD DVD player will get a firmware update to allow them to decode DTS-HD MA. Besides the fact that I notice you didn't mention the A1/XA1 why exactly do you believe that I would have heard about that? Note that I rarely read the threads in the HD DVD sections of the forum. Also you say that this has been confirmed by Toshiba but when and how did they announce that?


Not everyone is fooled by the false advertising and promotion of a bunch of features that aren't ready yet, aren't in production, or will never make it into production (as in BDJ 1.1 and 2.0, decoding of TruHD, DTS-HD and DD+, Network ports that actually do something, 25 Gig discs being 80% of available titles, AVC encoding to start being the standard in April 2007, Basic BDJ 1.0 being the standard until June 2007, PiP being faked because most Bluray players can't do the real thing, etc etc etc etc....)Just to point this but the PS3 can do 7.1 channel Dolby TrueHD decoding. Can any of the current HD DVD players do that? Also why did you think that MPEG-4 AVC encoding would become standard in April of 2007? Just a guess but I think you might have misread one of the press releases about Sony supporting MPEG-4 AVC encoding beginning this April.

After carefully looking around in the forum archives it does seem that what you stated is that you believed that the lossless audio codecs would not be used as commonly on Blu-ray as on HD DVD. I am not so sure that turned out to be true considering the number of DTS-HD MA movies currently being released on Blu-ray, but regardless I admit you never said anything against lossless audio codecs being used on Blu-ray.Thanks

Sure, I was wrong about that. Now rdjam would you be willing to admit that you were wrong about these?OK, let's see...

1. HD-A1 decoder being able to output 1080p24 (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7827193&&#post7827193)Actually, the statement you have linked is completely accurate. The chips are capable of doing that. Which is obviously why I had some hope that they might implement it. I'll go even further and state that the HDMI chipset in the A1 is capable of transmitting 1080p24, as the bandwidth required is actually lower than 1080i60. Did I state that the A1 would ABSOLUTELY do 1080p24? No - I merely stated that certain things were possible and that I had hope. As you know, the XA2 and A20 will now be doing the 1080p. So, no...

2. Sony faking their Vaio Blu-ray demo (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7676628&&#post7676628)Most accounts said they did fake the demo - the reporters backed off, but neither you or I can say what actually happened, so we will each go to our graves with our own opinions. So, no...

3. Blu-ray companies promising HDMI 1.3 outputs (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7652743&&#post7652743)You're link here is another Bluray supporter claiming that I stated that, not me actually doing so. To refresh you memory, a lot of Bluray supporters (probably yourself included) were claiming that the Pioneer and Sony BD players would be HDMI 1.3 - of course, when they came out, this proved NOT to be the case. So, no...

4. HD DVD specs mandate decoding of DTS-HD (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7568245&&#post7568245)My statement in your linked post is accurate. HD DVD does require that the players "support" DTS HD - of course this is said in the "bluray" meaning of the word, where it supports DTS HD by playing the legacy core. My statement wasn't "must decode DTS HD". I have been very specific about HD DVD players being REQUIRED to decode DD+ and TruHD, though. So, no...

5. HD-A1 could decode lossless DTS-HD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7492043&&#post7492043)Hmmm, this one is a mixed bag. This waqs right before the players shipped, when we got hold of a PDF of the user manual, which seemed to indicate it could decode DTS HD. I did say TWICE in the post you linked that we were awaiting confirmation as to whether this was true, so it was made clear in my post that there was no definitive proof yet, however, I clearly was under the misguided impression that it would. So, we'll have to split the points on that one.

rdjam, I am quite willing to admit to mistakes on this forum but I have yet to see you admit even once that you have made a mistake about anything. I've made loads of mistakes, and have said so often. "Honest" mistakes... This is different to deliberately misleading people, which other people seem so fond of (yourself not included of course).

In fact one time when I admitted I made a mistake when debating with Amir you actually mocked me for that which makes me wonder if you consider the admission of a mistake to be a sign of weakness. Is that what you believe?I remember you made that complaint before, but don't recall you linking it - care to provide the link this time? And, no, I don't consider admitting a mistake as a sign of weakness, but I don't feel the need to admit to a mistake unless I really have made one...

Also you recently said that the A2, A20, XA2 and Xbox 360 HD DVD player will get a firmware update to allow them to decode DTS-HD MA. Besides the fact that I notice you didn't mention the A1/XA1 why exactly do you believe that I would have heard about that? That is correct - I have stated that a firmware update will be available for the 2nd gen players to decode DTS HD. I have also stated that I am not certain that the first gen players will be able to. And your point is???

Note that I rarely read the threads in the HD DVD sections of the forum. Also you say that this has been confirmed by Toshiba but when and how did they announce that?Not telling... ;) If you want to judge me on it, you'll just have to wait...

Oh, like the 60GB PS3 with wifi? The one that probably accounts for 1.6M of the 2M shipped Blu-ray players? Sounds perfect!

All h/w and no s/w makes the player a ...

Heck, they don't even play some of the current Weinstein titles (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=761498) , they don't even need new TL51 discs for incompatibility!

Unlike BD, where every player perfectly plays every movie, right ? :p

From news:

HD DVD players below US$500 possible in 2H07, claims Taiwan makers (http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20070119PD200.html)

I guess that means in Asia? So, $399 in the US?

Makes $299 a little tough.

Gary

Also from news thread:

Toshiba Introduces HD DVD-R Drive to Windows Vista Notebook PCs (http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20070118/126596/)

A portable coaster production facility!

What happened to HD DVD-RW?! The RW media is on sale now: Verbatim High Definition 2X Rewritable Disc 15GB HD DVD-RW - $35 (http://www.supermediastore.com/verbatim-hd-dvd-rw-high-definition-disc-media-1pk.html). Where's the drive that can do it? :confused:

Heck, they don't even play some of the current Weinstein titles (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=761498) , they don't even need new TL51 discs for incompatibility!

"Hello Pot? This is the Kettle. You're black."

From format neutral thread:


I would say so - the first Dual format players are appearing now, and this will increase this year.

The prices will also fall quite quickly. It appears that the work being done by Microsoft and Broadcom on Windows CE players will yield dual-format players also.



Adding a second SoC won't bring costs down. And there is the difficulty of shared DRAM and flash (or duplication, which is even more costly).

It's hard to see Microsoft helping out by supporting the BD requirements (e.g. BD-Java) in their software.

As a complete off-topic: I wonder what dangers there are in one format being a CP hole for the the other (either way)?

A BD-J program hacking the HD DVD side? An HDi program hacking the BD side? How would the SoC maker be able to defend?

Gary

Thank you for the answer.

One more question. Are those applications dynamically loaded/unloaded during movie playback? For example, in the U-Control, when the user chooses "Storyboard" icon, player will load storyboad application and graphics data from another files on the disc and display it, rather than taking them from preloaded memory? If it reads another file during movie playback, won't it affect to the movie playback because of head seek?

I beleive that the "core application" for U-Control (or IME, or whatever...) is pre-loaded at the beginning of the disc-load (or at "Play").

The actual IME content is then muxed into the stream, thus no head seek. This is also why all of the calculations regarding peak bandwidth usage here have always included the IME track... it's in the mux.

Kosty, all six currently available Blu-ray players other than the PS3 has upconversion, and the PS3 will likely get it within two months. DVD upconversion not only has nothing to do with either format, it is fully supported by all Blu-ray vendors.
And if they are buying their first TV today it almost certainly has an upconversion chip in it, further weakening your already feeble argument.

This is what I just don't understand ... Why is it that sometimes it is okay to point out that 95% of all Blu-Ray players are PS3's (which means that 95% of them don't have upconversion) ... and other times, it's okay to say ... "It's only the PS3 ... the other 6 available can do it just fine."

And, frankly, I think it has a lot to do with the format. I lot of people don't want to have 3 different optical players. I for one use my DVD player to play audio CD's. While I can't speak for everyone, I know that if I spent $500, or $600 or $1000 on a brand new 'Next Generation' Super-Duper Optical player ... well ... I would expect it to play CD's, upconvert DVD's, and play every Next Generation Disc I put in it ... but ... I guess I'm just 'hard to please' that way. *shrug*

Oh, like the 60GB PS3 with wifi? The one that probably accounts for 1.6M of the 2M shipped Blu-ray players? Sounds perfect!
Heck, they don't even play some of the current Weinstein titles (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=761498) , they don't even need new TL51 discs for incompatibility!

:lol: ... see what I mean? Not even 4 posts apart ... :rolleyes:

This is what I just don't understand ... Why is it that sometimes it is okay to point out that 95% of all Blu-Ray players are PS3's (which means that 95% of them don't have upconversion) ... and other times, it's okay to say ... "It's only the PS3 ... the other 6 available can do it just fine."

And, frankly, I think it has a lot to do with the format. I lot of people don't want to have 3 different optical players. I for one use my DVD player to play audio CD's. While I can't speak for everyone, I know that if I spent $500, or $600 or $1000 on a brand new 'Next Generation' Super-Duper Optical player ... well ... I would expect it to play CD's, upconvert DVD's, and play every Next Generation Disc I put in it ... but ... I guess I'm just 'hard to please' that way. *shrug*

While upconversion is a nice feature, I don't see this as a make or break feature for the mass market. The high-end HT enthusiast who buys a PS3 for Blu-ray will be moving his/her library to HD. To me, upconversion is to HD Optical what Laserdisc/DVD combo players were to DVD.

That being said, I agree that I would prefer if all current players could at least play all 5" optical formats. Ok, SACD and DVD-A are asking a bit more, but CD, DVD, and either Blu-ray or HD-DVD given the format of choice.

Upconversion for the PS3 is still expected in the future last I heard.

While upconversion is a nice feature, I don't see this as a make or break feature for the mass market. The high-end HT enthusiast who buys a PS3 for Blu-ray will be moving his/her library to HD. To me, upconversion is to HD Optical what Laserdisc/DVD combo players were to DVD.

Sorry, I'm not sure I buy that. The masses are starting to appreciate upconversion as more upconverting players come out. As time goes by, upconverting is getting more and more popular. I on the other hand, have a little over 40 HD discs, but about 900 DVDs-the vast majority of which will probably never be available on HD optical. Upconverting my collection makes a huge difference to me. I think many people underestimate the value of good upconversion.
J

You think that 2 BD-50's costs LESS to make than 4 HD DVD -30's :)?

Ben I'm going to bite on this one if you'll allow me. :)

Putting it into NDA-friendly terms, assuming an HD30 costs x amount to replicate, then how many times that cost is it in order to replicate a BD50 y?

This is what I just don't understand ... Why is it that sometimes it is okay to point out that 95% of all Blu-Ray players are PS3's (which means that 95% of them don't have upconversion) ... and other times, it's okay to say ... "It's only the PS3 ... the other 6 available can do it just fine."In this case the original poster was asserting that Blu-ray as a format doesn't support upconversion. I was pointing out that a consumer who wanted it could choose from any available Blu-ray player other than the PS3 (today). Clearly someone for whom upconversion is a critical feature should not choose the PS3 unless they are confident the feature will appear in the future.
And, frankly, I think it has a lot to do with the format. I lot of people don't want to have 3 different optical players. I for one use my DVD player to play audio CD's. While I can't speak for everyone, I know that if I spent $500, or $600 or $1000 on a brand new 'Next Generation' Super-Duper Optical player ... well ... I would expect it to play CD's, upconvert DVD's, and play every Next Generation Disc I put in itThat still has nothing to do with the format, it has to do with what features beyond the format a given vendor chooses to include. And, as I said, every non-PS3 Blu-ray player supports it, so it's a non-issue.

- Talk

That [lack of CD playback] still has nothing to do with the format, it has to do with what features beyond the format a given vendor chooses to include.
- Talk
Not true at all. Difficulty of reading BD at .1mm depth and DVD/CD compatibility at other depths led Pioneer to design a drive that could not read CDs. Sony OEMed the same machine and got stuck with the same limitation. Yes, newer drives using more expensive optics can maintain compatibility but then again, there is a price for that too.

I am confident that Sony did not "choose" to leave behind CD, the format they co-invented, in their launch player.

You still can't say it's a non-issue when 95% of all BR players (or in that range) will be PS3s. Sony, PS3 and BR are already intertwined in everyone's minds and fact isn't much different.

A comparable example would be if we found out that *ALL* Toshiba HD DVD players didn't support audio-cd playback. To then say that CD playback is a non-issue because the other players do it would be FALSE.


And, as I said, every non-PS3 Blu-ray player supports it, so it's a non-issue.

- Talk

Not true at all. Difficulty of reading BD at .1mm depth and DVD/CD compatibility at other depths led Pioneer to design a drive that could not read CDs. Sony OEMed the same machine and got stuck with the same limitation. Yes, newer drives using more expensive optics can maintain compatibility but then again, there is a price for that too.

I am confident that Sony did not "choose" to leave behind CD, the format they co-invented, in their launch player.

Design choices are made every day, some bad, some good and some that really have little effect. Microsoft chose to not include HDMI in the XBox 360 and now 10 million shipped devices are lacking that feature when even now almost 100% of all new HDTV displays support HDMI.

While the Sony player may not support CD playback, the numbers that are affected are trivial to the lack of HDMI in Xbox 360..

b2b

Thank you for the answer.

One more question. Are those applications dynamically loaded/unloaded during movie playback? For example, in the U-Control, when the user chooses "Storyboard" icon, player will load storyboad application and graphics data from another files on the disc and display it, rather than taking them from preloaded memory? If it reads another file during movie playback, won't it affect to the movie playback because of head seek?Yes, they're dynamically loaded. For U-Control, they're stored on the disc in their own files, and when they load, playback pauses for a very small amount of time. (On some players, it's noticable, on others it isn't). For applications that load at specific times, you can mux them into the EVOB so the data is available and in memory when the app starts. That would not cause any playback problems (Except for the bandwidth usage, which is usually minimal).

Yes, they're dynamically loaded. For U-Control, they're stored on the disc in their own files, and when they load, playback pauses for a very small amount of time. (On some players, it's noticable, on others it isn't). For applications that load at specific times, you can mux them into the EVOB so the data is available and in memory when the app starts. That would not cause any playback problems (Except for the bandwidth usage, which is usually minimal).Thanks for the clarification, appreciate that!

Sony OEMed the same machine and got stuck with the same limitation. Yes, newer drives using more expensive optics can maintain compatibility but then again, there is a price for that too.

I am confident that Sony did not "choose" to leave behind CD, the format they co-invented, in their launch player.Samsung released a player six months earlier which fully supports CD, as does their PS3 released one month earlier. How can you claim Sony had "no choice"?

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
No. I suspect that the vast majority of PS3 consumers already had an upconverting DVD player, so many may choose to keep that. Many others have TV's which upconvert, and reports are that a PS3 coupled with an average upconverting TV produces a very, very good DVD image. And finally, multiple Sony sources have been quoted as saying they expect that a future firmware update will provide SD upconversion (the hardware in the PS3 is clearly capable of supporting it given how little processor/graphical overhead legacy DVD requires relative to Blu-ray).
"Badges??? We don't need no stinkin' badges???"

"...Upconversion??? Blu-ray don't need no stickin' upconversion"

http://www.darryl.com/badges/

I as a consumer choose HD DVD because of the upconverison capability. Many buying their first HDTV will want a new generation DVD player to go along with it.

A HD DVD with their HD TV that also upconverts standard DVDs and plays CDs is a better choice than a "Play"station without a remote that needs a second DVD player to upconvert or a $1000 + player that won't play CD's. Even more so when its less than half the price.

I may not be the only person that thinks that way
Kosty, all six currently available Blu-ray players other than the PS3 has upconversion, and the PS3 will likely get it within two months. DVD upconversion not only has nothing to do with either format, it is fully supported by all Blu-ray vendors.
And if they are buying their first TV today it almost certainly has an upconversion chip in it, further weakening your already feeble argument.

Well, I really was giving an observation, but if you wanted to turn it into an argument, the fact is today is that the only Blu-ray player on the market with a price of less than $500 does not have upconversion.

Why it didn't at launch after all of its delays is up to ones imagination, including the possible scenario that Sony wanted Blu-ray in the PS3 to look better in comparison to the non upconverted SD DVDs and to encourage sales of the stand alone player.

Right now if you count all of the PS3s in the field as Blu-ray players then you must admit that the majority of Blu-ray players right now do not have SD DVD upconversion, while every single HD DVD player on the market has SD DVD upconversion built right in. ... "further weakening your already feeble argument"..kinda like built in networking, PIP and mandated storage and HDi support. :rolleyes:

So HD DVD currently has all players including those under $499 that upconvert. Blu-ray does not have an upconverting player under $499.

When the PS3 does decent upconversion or another Blu-ray player under $499 does decent upconversion, I will consider buying one. Feel free to tell me when that occurs.

My "feeble argument" was not that HD DVD was better here, but that standard DVD upconversion to near HD quality is currently a major advantage for HD DVD. Its an advantage to all the HD A2 now arriving in retail stores. Its currently a head to head advantage against the PS3. When it ceases to be then my observation will be less valid. But until it happens it is a fact which is actually "further weakening your already feeble argument". :mad:

No. I suspect that the vast majority of PS3 consumers already had an upconverting DVD player, so many may choose to keep that This is the point that I thought was a large assumption that may not be valid and also the short optimistic window on the firmware upgrade for the upconversion capablity. That's kinda like trust us, buy it anyway, it'll have upconversion in the future.

But that doesn't help people in the buying decision to buy a new HD capable player at the $500 price point. Only HD DVD has that advantage and capability at the moment.

Like I said, I hope the PS3 has that ability within a couple months. But right now its just a promise.

My "feeble argument" was not that HD DVD was better here, but that standard DVD upconversion to near HD quality is currently a major advantage for HD DVD.

It *is* a feeble argument.
People don't buy HD DVD players for upconversion. They buy them for HD DVDs.

Also, the "majority" if you want specifics seems to be the XBOX 360 add on, and it ONLY supports upconversion via the VGA adapter (and seems to be more finicky than any HDMI problems out there).

What will the argument be when the PS3 is updated to add upconversion? I think it will be like when BD50's hit the market, all of a sudden it no longer matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345
This is what I just don't understand ... Why is it that sometimes it is okay to point out that 95% of all Blu-Ray players are PS3's (which means that 95% of them don't have upconversion) ... and other times, it's okay to say ... "It's only the PS3 ... the other 6 available can do it just fine."

And, frankly, I think it has a lot to do with the format. I lot of people don't want to have 3 different optical players. I for one use my DVD player to play audio CD's. While I can't speak for everyone, I know that if I spent $500, or $600 or $1000 on a brand new 'Next Generation' Super-Duper Optical player ... well ... I would expect it to play CD's, upconvert DVD's, and play every Next Generation Disc I put in it ... but ... I guess I'm just 'hard to please' that way. *shrug*

While upconversion is a nice feature, I don't see this as a make or break feature for the mass market. The high-end HT enthusiast who buys a PS3 for Blu-ray will be moving his/her library to HD. To me, upconversion is to HD Optical what Laserdisc/DVD combo players were to DVD.

That being said, I agree that I would prefer if all current players could at least play all 5" optical formats. Ok, SACD and DVD-A are asking a bit more, but CD, DVD, and either Blu-ray or HD-DVD given the format of choice.

Upconversion for the PS3 is still expected in the future last I heard. That s the problem with Sony and Blu-ray right now with the machines. The optics of Blu-ray complicate the machines in legacy playback. The Sony standalone (I believe still doesn't) was announced without support for playing back CD's. The new LG hybrid player , started life as a Blu-ray player design and still can't play CD's. Having to focus at the top of the disc (for Blu-ray) the middle of the disc (DVD and HD DVD) and the bottom of the disc (CD) is a bit tougher for Blu-ray machines.

Backward CD playback is also something else that is simpler in HD DVD.

It *is* a feeble argument.
People don't buy HD DVD players for upconversion. They buy them for HD DVDs.

Also, the "majority" if you want specifics seems to be the XBOX 360 add on, and it ONLY supports upconversion via the VGA adapter (and seems to be more finicky than any HDMI problems out there).

What will the argument be when the PS3 is updated to add upconversion? I think it will be like when BD50's hit the market, all of a sudden it no longer matters. Wait until you see Toshiba's new marketing materials. Or try to sell one at Circuit City or Best Buy.

What would be the easier sell, a player that also "upconverts your existing DVD collection to near HD quality" and plays all your CD's along with playing the new HD DVD discs with your new HD TV? for $499 or less street price.

or a "play"station 3 with no remote that doesn't upconvert but plays Blu-ray discs and CD's (what's a Blu-ray again??)

or a or $799 or a new $999 or $1299 or $1499 player that does the same thing?

BTW ,

Toshiba just announced a new advertising campaign.

Buy a new Toshiba HD TV 42 " or larger and a new HD DVD and save $200 with an instant rebate . Dealers get a incentive also.

3 DVD with purchase program also applies.

Samsung released a player six months earlier which fully supports CD, as does their PS3 released one month earlier. How can you claim Sony had "no choice"?
Sony had no choice because they didn't want to design their own stand-alone player and went out to get one from Pioneer which could not play CDs. Persumably, they could not go to any other company to get a machine that way.

So they make life difficult for themselves on this....

What would be the easier sell, a player that also "upconverts your existing DVD collection to near HD quality" and plays all your CD's along with playing the new HD DVD discs with your new HD TV? for $499 or less street price.

Seems to me it's far easier to sell (at least for a consumer to be aware of Blu-ray):
A Panasonic HDTV and a Panasonic BD.
OR a Sony Bravia with a Sony BD
Or a Samsung LCD/DLP with a Samsung BD
Or a Sharp LCD with a Sharp BD
Or a Pioneer 1080p Plasma with a Pioneer BD

or that fancy new PlayStation that plays games AND HiDef movies!

Contrast this with: "Hey! You've just spent some cash to get an awesome new Mitsubishi 1080p DLP TV! Now, how about a nice Shinsonic or Venturer player to go with it?" :p

And just try explaining if you buy a Toshiba why you can't play that new HD version of "Cars" or "Pirates of the Carribean" on them...
"but upconversion is good enough!"
"Really? Then I'll just buy this $100 upconverting DVD player then, rather than drop $500 on this Toshiba."
you get the picture (*that* is marketing)

What would be the easier sell, a player that also "upconverts your existing DVD collection to near HD quality" and plays all your CD's along with playing the new HD DVD discs with your new HD TV? for $499 or less street price.

or a "play"station 3 with no remote that doesn't upconvert but plays Blu-ray discs and CD's (what's a Blu-ray again??)

Seems to me the PS3 is a far easier sell since it plays games too (and most folks have figured out how to use the controller and think $25 is a good price for the remote).
When it upconverts your point will suddenly not matter the same way the lack of title announcements at CES suddenly doesn't matter (after being ever so important in 2005 and 2006).

Actually, the statement you have linked is completely accurate. The chips are capable of doing that.Well from what Alex once posted the decoder used in it isn't capable of 1080p24 output. As such why are you so sure that the HD-A1 is capable of 1080p24 output?


Most accounts said they did fake the demo - the reporters backed off, but neither you or I can say what actually happened, so we will each go to our graves with our own opinions. So, no...It was a demonstration between Blu-ray and DVD which the original reporter didn't know about and there are articles that talk about it (http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2939).


You're link here is another Bluray supporter claiming that I stated that, not me actually doing so. To refresh you memory, a lot of Bluray supporters (probably yourself included) were claiming that the Pioneer and Sony BD players would be HDMI 1.3Found the post that nilsp was referring to (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7652221&&#post7652221) and in it you said: "we have been hearing for months that these Bluray players would have HDMI 1.3". I guess you could have been referring to other posters though I don't see why you would assume that there guesses would be accurate. Also just to point this out but I stated in that same post that the PS3 was the only announced HD player with a HDMI 1.3 output.


Hmmm, this one is a mixed bag. This waqs right before the players shipped, when we got hold of a PDF of the user manual, which seemed to indicate it could decode DTS HD. I did say TWICE in the post you linked that we were awaiting confirmation as to whether this was true, so it was made clear in my post that there was no definitive proof yet, however, I clearly was under the misguided impression that it would. So, we'll have to split the points on that one.rdjam, when you said that we were awaiting confirmation from DTS you were actually referring to the bitstream option for DTS-HD. At the time you posted that I don't think you knew about the different versions of HDMI. Here are two of the statements you made in that post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7492043&&#post7492043):

"DTS-HD is decoded in all it's lossless glory, bit-for-bit at 5.1 and output to your AVR over HDMI as PCM, as well as analog."
...
"Again, we are waiting for DTS to confirm whether the "bitstream" option (different option, understand?) is DTS or DTS HD, but I suspect it will depend on what your AVR can handle."


I remember you made that complaint before, but don't recall you linking it - care to provide the link this time?It was in early October of last year and I believe the mods deleted that post.


Not telling... ;) If you want to judge me on it, you'll just have to wait...Well the two most likely possibilities in that you either were told by an insider, such as Amir, or that you heard it on this forum. Either way at the moment this is a rumor and I don't see any sign that it has been confirmed by Toshiba.

The HD DVD logo looks likes the DVD logo.

HD DVD is to DVD as HDTV is to TV.

Ok you want a new HDTV, do you want HD DVD (fries :D )with that?

People can figure out what HD DVD means

HD DVD is cheaper than Blu-ray (unless you want a PS3)

Some people don't want a console game machine for their DVD or HD player , let alone that costs what the PS3 costs

===============

That being said it will be easier to sell a same brand Blu-ray player with a same brand HDTV player, that will eventually be a Blu-ray CE advantage, except now the PRICE IS TOO HIGH :eek:

Toshiba is the HDTV maker that can take advantage of that now. ;)

Toshiba is just announcing a promotion for those buying a Toshiba HD DVD player and a Toshiba HDTV. :)

The HD DVD logo looks likes the DVD logo.

HD DVD is to DVD as HDTV is to TV.

Ok you want a new HDTV, do you want HD DVD (fries :D )with that?

People can figure out what HD DVD means

HD DVD is cheaper than Blu-ray (unless you want a PS3)

Some people don't want a console game machine for their DVD or HD player , let alone that costs what the PS3 costs

===============

That being said it will be easier to sell a same brand Blu-ray player with a same brand HDTV player, that will eventually be a Blu-ray CE advantage, except now the PRICE IS TOO HIGH :eek:

Toshiba is the HDTV maker that can take advantage of that now. ;)

Toshiba is just announcing a promotion for those buying a Toshiba HD DVD palyer and a Toshiba HDTV. :)

I can understand that argument, but as you say the CE advantage is well and truly in favour of blu-ray, and that is no small thing because it turns out that the companies that support blu-ray are also make some of the best TVs in the world (Sony, Pioneer, Sharp, etc...). Again you said that the shopper will get a bundle of a TV and a player so if you are going to buy a Sony TV, then you will get a Sony player with it, with some sort of discount. For HD DVD there is only one company that it will work for, Toshiba, and their TVs, while solid, are not up there with the best and brightest, and their sales will not match Sony/Sharp when it comes to TVs, which in your scenario will hamper HD DVD sales.

Seems to me it's far easier to sell (at least for a consumer to be aware of Blu-ray):
A Panasonic HDTV and a Panasonic BD.
OR a Sony Bravia with a Sony BD
Or a Samsung LCD/DLP with a Samsung BD
Or a Sharp LCD with a Sharp BD
Or a Pioneer 1080p Plasma with a Pioneer BD

or that fancy new PlayStation that plays games AND HiDef movies!

Contrast this with: "Hey! You've just spent some cash to get an awesome new Mitsubishi 1080p DLP TV! Now, how about a nice Shinsonic or Venturer player to go with it?"

And just try explaining if you buy a Toshiba why you can't play that new HD version of "Cars" or "Pirates of the Carribean" on them...
"but upconversion is good enough!"
"Really? Then I'll just buy this $100 upconverting DVD player then, rather than drop $500 on this Toshiba."
you get the picture (*that* is marketing) Seems to me the PS3 is a far easier sell since it plays games too (and most folks have figured out how to use the controller and think $25 is a good price for the remote).
When it upconverts your point will suddenly not matter the same way the lack of title announcements at CES suddenly doesn't matter (after being ever so important in 2005 and 2006).

(at least for a consumer to be aware of Blu-ray): is the critical point. Sony has backed off all plans to advertise at consumer levels "Blu-ray " as a brand. Its left that to CE at the point of sale level.

HD DVD does not have to be branded in consumers minds like Blu-ray does. It is a brand extension of the DVD name with HD being added, which consumers already know means high definition as it relates to HDTV.

A lot of non major brand named HDTVs are now being sold at mass merchandisers now (Vizio anyone?) and consumers are now less brand CE conditioned because of Wal-mart Costco Sam's Club, K-mart and even Best Buy and Circuit City.

J6P has no idea of title announcements at CES. All he will care about is when he is deciding to buy his HD DVD player or Blu-ray player there seems to be enough movies available to make his investment worthwhile.

There is a critical mass of content concept here. Its a network effect issue.

Once there are enough movies available at the store shelf to help justify the buying decision, more movies in the future or studio support becomes a non issue. If J6P sees 50 or 100 movies he wants to watch in HD DVD or Blu-ray on the shelf, or maybe its 200 or certainly 500 or 600, what studios supports what is academic.

If I see 50 movies I want to watch, to justify my initial purchase, that's all I need.

The upconverting capability is a bonus that reduces risk and simplifies his life. If he does own an upconverting player, he can move it to another room if his new HD player upconverts.

=========================

The bottom line in HD DVD or Blu-ray adoption is price.

Anything that can help justify that price decision is helpful to a consumer buying a player.

HD DVD has an advantage in this purchase because:

Price is lower on standalone players
HDTV goes along with HD DVD
Standard DVD upconversion and CD playback eliminates dual players
Built in Internet and networking (and storage that consumers won't understand)

HD DVD may also have had an advantage because of the breadth of titles catalog and genre, Blu-ray concentrated on action younger demo movies, this is changing

Blu-ray has some technical points, capacity, 1080p, uncompressed audio, but they probably don't matter as much to consumers as studio support would.

But studio support is nullified in the initial buying decision if the consumer see a crititial mass of software available.

I contend that that critical mass of software is starting to be available now for HD DVD, it will certainly be in place by the end of the year.

Enough software available, plus CD and upconverted DVD playback at a lower and lower price for the same quality HD playback will start to convince more an d more consumers to try HD DVD.

... Sony has backed off all plans to advertise at consumer levels "Blu-ray " as a brand...

Not sure where you are getting that from ...

I am surprised how many TV release announcements for movies (dozens of times over the last several weeks) are advertised as "Available in DVD and Blu-Ray on Tuesday, MMM/DD. " ... showing the DVD and Blu-ray logos. I don't remember these specifically as being Sony though.

There are others ... mainly Disney, that are pumping Blu-ray big time on their DVD releases.

I've yet to see *one* HD-DVD commercial.

So, Toshiba finally announced a combo-deal for $200 off when one of their HD DVD decks is purchased with one of their sets (42" or larger). Smart idea. What took them so long?

If SED was out, this would have been an extremely significant turn of events. They could probably have offered a free A2 with every purchase.

Gary

It *is* a feeble argument.
People don't buy HD DVD players for upconversion. They buy them for HD DVDs.

Many people have DVD collections, it's likely that some of the titles they own won't be available on HD media for some time, and they may not want to replace all of them anyway. Excellent up-conversion can make what would otherwise be a painful difference in quality between HD titles and DVDs more than acceptable. If everything else is essentially equivalent in a product comparison, HQ up-conversion offers a definite advantage.

Also, the "majority" if you want specifics seems to be the XBOX 360 add on, and it ONLY supports upconversion via the VGA adapter (and seems to be more finicky than any HDMI problems out there).

VGA is still better than nuttin'.

What will the argument be when the PS3 is updated to add upconversion? I think it will be like when BD50's hit the market, all of a sudden it no longer matters.

IMO, up-conversion on the PS3 will be a big plus.......when it happens.

So, Toshiba finally announced a combo-deal for $200 off when one of their HD DVD decks is purchased with one of their sets (42" or larger). Smart idea. What took them so long?

If SED was out, this would have been an extremely significant turn of events. They could probably have offered a free A2 with every purchase.

Gary
What took them so long? They waited until the second generation units were out in quantity.

No point in this when they were selling the first generation players without advertising and the inventory was tight.

This buy a HDTV get $200 off a HD DVD in store rebate will be available for a very limited period.

I think ads and in-store promos will hit next week.

The 3 free HD DVD promo still applies with this Toshiba deal.

Not sure where you are getting that from ...

I am surprised how many TV release announcements for movies (dozens of times over the last several weeks) are advertised as "Available in DVD and Blu-Ray on Tuesday, MMM/DD. " ... showing the DVD and Blu-ray logos. I don't remember these specifically as being Sony though.

There are others ... mainly Disney, that are pumping Blu-ray big time on their DVD releases.

I've yet to see *one* HD-DVD commercial. A Sony PS3 ads have not mentioned Blu-ray. Those ads are from the studios (ok SPHE included) regarding their releases.

I really was talking about mass market radio TV and cable ads.

There has been no co-branding of the PS3 and Blu-ray except for in-store and print ads mentioning Blu-ray as a feature.

They waited until the second generation units were out in quantity. No point in thiswhen they were selling the first generation players without advertising and the inventory was tight.

Good point. But, what was never adequately explained was: Why was the first generation deliberately small in volume if Toshiba were initially claiming they'd be selling 500K players by the end of 2006?

Did Intel promise a new production run and then renage?

Gary

I can understand that argument, but as you say the CE advantage is well and truly in favour of blu-ray, and that is no small thing because it turns out that the companies that support blu-ray are also make some of the best TVs in the world (Sony, Pioneer, Sharp, etc...). Again you said that the shopper will get a bundle of a TV and a player so if you are going to buy a Sony TV, then you will get a Sony player with it, with some sort of discount. For HD DVD there is only one company that it will work for, Toshiba, and their TVs, while solid, are not up there with the best and brightest, and their sales will not match Sony/Sharp when it comes to TVs, which in your scenario will hamper HD DVD sales. For the high end buyer, it is better that the brand matches. That is a Blu-ray CE advantage, but the price is an issue with an educated consumer also.

A lot of people are buying HDTV's at prices at $999 or below now. For those people its a lot easier to buy a $499 or $399 or $299 (after $200 instant rebate) HD DVD player when they buy their $999 HDTV than buy another $999 standalone player or a "Play station 3 game console" for $499 or $599.

All things being equal, common brands are an advantage.

But all things are not equal, when there is a huge price differential.

Toshiba just announced a new advertising campaign.

Buy a new Toshiba HD TV 42 " or larger and a new HD DVD and save $200 with an instant rebate . Dealers get a incentive also.

Oh ... finally. I've been saying this for over a year now.

And I bet that you will not see such a move by BD manufacturers - who probably control a large portion of HDTV market compared to Tosh. I'm talking about a 40% discount here. This is possible only when you have a player which is inexpensive ...

And I think once MS can make enough HD DVD add-ons we will start seeing 360+add-on bundles as well ....

I've yet to see *one* HD-DVD commercial.

And I haven't seen a single BD commercial, although admittedly I either fast forward through commercials, change channels, or multi-task.

And I bet that you will not see such a move by BD manufacturers - who probably control a large portion of HDTV market compared to Tosh. I'm talking about a 40% discount here. This is possible only when you have a player which is inexpensive ...


Or... you're making a very nice margin on the TV. This is to sell sets, not HD DVD players.

Gary

Good point. But, what was never adequately explained was: Why was the first generation deliberately small in volume if Toshiba were initially claiming they'd be selling 500K players by the end of 2006?

Did Intel promise a new production run and then renage?

I think their G2 player got delayed. May be they thought they can sell a lot of them if it had come out in Oct/Nov instead of Dec. Ofcourse G1 itself had got delayed (when was this 500K figure given ?).

Or... you're making a very nice margin on the TV. This is to sell sets, not HD DVD players.

Considering falling prices and fierce competetion - it can be quite difficult to hold high margins in HDTVs now ...

I think their G2 player got delayed. May be they thought they can sell a lot of them if it had come out in Oct/Nov instead of Dec. Ofcourse G1 itself had got delayed (when was this 500K figure given ?).

Before the launch. They subsequently dropped it to 300K moving the 500K to the end of March.

Gary

Considering falling prices and fierce competetion - it can be quite difficult to hold high margins in HDTVs now ...

42" or more?

Best Buy:

Cheapest Toshiba: Toshiba - TheaterWide 50" DLP HDTV 50HM66 - $1149
Cheapest 42"+: Samsung - 42" DLP HDTV HL-S4266W - $949

Difference: $200. Go figure.

Gary

Good point. But, what was never adequately explained was: Why was the first generation deliberately small in volume if Toshiba were initially claiming they'd be selling 500K players by the end of 2006?

Did Intel promise a new production run and then renage?

Gary Better point.

My best guess if that once the first generation players started selling so well, Toshiba accelerated the production of the second generation products. They ran out of Gen 1 products before the Gen 2 players could be built. THey were close but the chip QC problem forced the first batch of Gen 2 HD A2s to be rebuilt and replaced. They ran out of time.

I think Toshiba was surprised on how fast the HD A1 sold without advertising. It was meant as a market leader, first to market place holder, demo of HD DVD capabilities and a flexible software player that could be firmware upgraded after it got into the hands of mass owners, and it had extra audio goodies to make up for its Gen 1 quirks.

The HD A2 is the real mass market player and this is the real HD DVD consumer launch. Not really in time for the Xmas season, but fortunately for HD DVD the Xbox 360 HD DVD bundle covered that slack.

It will be interesting to see what the HD DVD player and movie sales will be with mass inventories on end caps and with no 1st generation quirks, and a CE DVD like player with mass market advertising and promotion.

The price points for the HD A2 and the HD A20 and HD XA2 have room for adjustment as the year progresses.

Dealers should also make some money on them and should a lot more incentive to sell them than the PS3. Dealers may also find them easier to sell than more expensive Blu-ray players. Dealers may also find them easier to sell because they should have adequate stocks in inventory.

I predict the next couple months will be very interesting for HD DVD player sales. ;)

Oh ... finally. I've been saying this for over a year now.

And I bet that you will not see such a move by BD manufacturers - who probably control a large portion of HDTV market compared to Tosh. I'm talking about a 40% discount here. This is possible only when you have a player which is inexpensive ...

And I think once MS can make enough HD DVD add-ons we will start seeing 360+add-on bundles as well ....

I know somone who bought a Sony HDTV that was bundled with a PS3 before the PS3's were released. I don't think there was a discount but he was planning on selling the PS3 on ebay for the equivalent of a big discount. Unfortunately, the store didn't deliver on his PS3 until after the ebay prices had collapsed.

HD DVD does not have to be branded in consumers minds like Blu-ray does. It is a brand extension of the DVD name with HD being added, which consumers already know means high definition as it relates to HDTV.

Ask any salesperson in the major chains and a LOT of customers think that the HDMI upconverting DVD players are "HD DVD".
Plus, what's up with the fugly lopsided logo? People like symmetry.

Folks *know* Blu-ray is a different format altogether.

Then: what do you tell a customer when they ask if Panasonic or Sony or Samsung (etc) has one because they either don't like or don't know Toshiba, or strongly prefer those other brands.

It's also hilarious watching the HD DVD group tout the fact that they have Shinsonic and Venturer. Onkyo is a coup quality wise (and they're also a BD member) but I've recommended Onkyo receivers for years and people are "Onky-what?"

Ilka: I've yet to see *one* HD-DVD commercial.

Well, in all fairness there's one that implies that watching HD DVD makes you feel like you're hanging from a helicopter about to plunge to your death. :D

Or... you're making a very nice margin on the TV. This is to sell sets, not HD DVD players.

Gary I know the dealers will also get an incentive for each of these bundles sold. I just can't say now what it is.

So a $1149 HDTV and a $499 HD DVD player gets a $200 instant rebate.


Hmm.. Whats better in the consumer'e eyes a $949 HDTV or a $299 HD DVD player!!! :) :) :)

Remember first format to get to $199 next generation HD player wins. :D

Kosty, just curious but considering Blu-ray is getting more content over the next few months wouldn't it reach this so called point of "critical mass" before HD DVD would? Also the idea that content doesn't matter for the initial purchase of a HD DVD player looks to be based on the belief that the consumer would not do any research before buying it.

Kosty, just curious but considering Blu-ray is getting more content over the next few months wouldn't it reach this so called point of "critical mass" before HD DVD would? Also the idea that content doesn't matter for the initial purchase of a HD DVD player looks to be based on the belief that the consumer would not do any research before buying it.Agree with both of your points. Blu-ray will reach this critical mass first if they have more titles on the street, and if they are in as varied as genre as the HD DVD releases have been. Even with research, if I see 50 or 100 titles I want to watch, thats months and months of movies, thats more than enough to rationalize the purchase. Blu-ray also has the studio support talking point that can help rationalize a stand alone player purchase.

But the big difference in how this effects HD DVD and Blu-ray is the cost of entry, it is a fact that stand alone HD DVD players are available now at a lower cost.

But I think the Kosty's "critical mass of software" theory will have more effect on HD DVD than Blu-ray because HD DVD players are soon getting to the "its tempting" cost stage. Once I think I can afford it, the only thing that is stopping me is the risks, risks of buying into the wrong format, not enough content being available, being stuck with a doorstop.

Once a next generation DVD player, like now the HD DVD players reach that "I can afford it" $399 $299 $199 or $99 kinda cost, things that offset that risk can convert a looker into a buyer.

Standard DVD upconversion, CD playback, Internet access, enough HD titles to play with , and my own existing library of DVDs looking and sounding better are things that reduce that risk. They may present enough value to make the decision easier.

This will happen to Blu-ray also. Its just that it may be critical that HD DVD will reach this point first with price points that make those considerations important. ;)

Maybe I should say "critical mass of software" combined with a "critical price of serious purchase consideration" is the winning combination.

Besides the PS3, the other Blu-ray players are not at a consumer market friendly price point yet. HD DVD IMHO is not there yet, either, but its getting closer.

Design choices are made every day, some bad, some good and some that really have little effect. Microsoft chose to not include HDMI in the XBox 360 and now 10 million shipped devices are lacking that feature when even now almost 100% of all new HDTV displays support HDMI.

While the Sony player may not support CD playback, the numbers that are affected are trivial to the lack of HDMI in Xbox 360..

b2b

All HDTV have component video inputs, but the lack of BD players ability to paly audio CDs is truly serious problem as no one can pay audio CDs ever. I do not consider the lack of audio playback to be trivial, nor do my customers as we have received many returned BD units for the lack of audio playback.

Whereas we have never receive a single xBox adaptor return.

-Robert

BTW ,

Toshiba just announced a new advertising campaign.

Buy a new Toshiba HD TV 42 " or larger and a new HD DVD and save $200 with an instant rebate . Dealers get a incentive also.

3 DVD with purchase program also applies.

The promotion dates run 1/28/07 - 2/2/07. We're going to spice it up with more instant rebate money. The promotion is limited select dealers an only on purchases of either a XA1, A2 or XA2 HD DVD player and any current model Toshiba 42", 47" or 50" plasma or LCD HDTV as well as all Toshiba DLP models 50" and up.

-Robert

Cheapest Toshiba: Toshiba - TheaterWide 50" DLP HDTV 50HM66 - $1149
Cheapest 42"+: Samsung - 42" DLP HDTV HL-S4266W - $949


But that is a different size. You expect $200 more for a 50" over 42". You can get for a 42" 720p Tosh HDTV in sears for around that price.

In general Tosh DLP doesn't get a premium over Samsung DLP. Samsungs are considered better - though in this year's issue of Home Theatre Tosh DLP rated better than both Sony SXRD and Samsung DLP.

All HDTV have component video inputs, but the lack of BD players ability to paly audio CDs is truly serious problem as no one can pay audio CDs ever. I do not consider the lack of audio playback to be trivial, nor do my customers as we have received many returned BD units for the lack of audio playback.

Whereas we have never receive a single xBox adaptor return.

-Robert

If you don't consider it trivial, you might want to place a notice on your web site to more fully describe the capabilities of the Sony BD player. It would seem that would lower the return rates for that related issue. The Pioneer is "in store sales only" so I assume you make customers aware of its lack of direct CD playback while doing a sales demo, but it does have the network "PlayForSure" feature that some may like better than single disc CD playback.

http://www.*********************/Panasonic%20DMP-BD10.htm
Additional Information
Plays discs with following formats BD-ROM, DVD-ROM, DVD +R/RW, DVD –R/RW, AVC-HD, and MP3/JPEG from DVD formats. Planned firmware upgrade in 2007 will allow for compatibility with most BD R/RE discs.
Maybe an addition of "Please Note: The design of the Sony BDP-S1 DOES NOT SUPPORT Audio CD Playback"

b2b

Design choices are made every day, some bad, some good and some that really have little effect. Microsoft chose to not include HDMI in the XBox 360 and now 10 million shipped devices are lacking that feature when even now almost 100% of all new HDTV displays support HDMI.

While the Sony player may not support CD playback, the numbers that are affected are trivial to the lack of HDMI in Xbox 360..

b2b

Yes, but I believe Microsoft was trying to support everyone who owns an HDTV with the Xbox 360, out of the box -- unlike Sony (who, btw, only includes composite cables in their Super Duper Next-Gen High Definition Blu-Ray Player of Potential). A year ago, there were many HDTV's that did not have an HDMI Port. Still today, a great percentage of HDTV's installed in homes do not have an HDMI Port. Microsoft decided to support Component Cables out of the box, so everyone could experience High Definition. If you want 1080p, you can still do so on the Xbox 360 via the VGA Cable.

Which brings me to a thought ... will VGA -> DVI -> HDMI work? :confused:

Anyways, you are correct, the affected players wrt Sony are a small number; however, the amount of players that cannot upconvert is a rather large number.

The Flip side is that while 10 million Xboxes do not have HDMI ports, they can all still play CD's, and they can all upscale DVD's, and they can all output in High Definition. Out of the box. Without me having to go and buy Sony Branded/Licensed cables so as not to void my warranty. :p

Whereas we have never receive a single xBox adaptor return.

Here's a funny question: do you even sell them and why?

Well, I really was giving an observation, but if you wanted to turn it into an argument, the fact is today is that the only Blu-ray player on the market with a price of less than $500 does not have upconversion.

Why it didn't at launch after all of its delays is up to ones imagination, including the possible scenario that Sony wanted Blu-ray in the PS3 to look better in comparison to the non upconverted SD DVDs and to encourage sales of the stand alone player.

Right now if you count all of the PS3s in the field as Blu-ray players then you must admit that the majority of Blu-ray players right now do not have SD DVD upconversion, while every single HD DVD player on the market has SD DVD upconversion built right in. ... "further weakening your already feeble argument"..kinda like built in networking, PIP and mandated storage and HDi support. :rolleyes:

So HD DVD currently has all players including those under $499 that upconvert. Blu-ray does not have an upconverting player under $499.

When the PS3 does decent upconversion or another Blu-ray player under $499 does decent upconversion, I will consider buying one. Feel free to tell me when that occurs.

My "feeble argument" was not that HD DVD was better here, but that standard DVD upconversion to near HD quality is currently a major advantage for HD DVD. Its an advantage to all the HD A2 now arriving in retail stores. Its currently a head to head advantage against the PS3. When it ceases to be then my observation will be less valid. But until it happens it is a fact which is actually "further weakening your already feeble argument". :mad:

I'm sure we'll hear how Sony feels that we don't need upconverstion. The consumer's don't want it. Just like they don't want rumble in their controllers. Has anyone else picked up on that trend? Companies telling us what we want as consumers (whether we like it or not)? First they lie to you, and ask for your money. Then, they pretty much call you stupid, and ask for more of your money. Yup ... makes me want to go right out and buy one. What's the going rate for 'Potential' these days anyways? I'm sure that has to factor in somehow. :rolleyes:

All HDTV have component video inputs, but the lack of BD players ability to paly audio CDs is truly serious problem as no one can pay audio CDs ever. I do not consider the lack of audio playback to be trivial, nor do my customers as we have received many returned BD units for the lack of audio playback.

Whereas we have never receive a single xBox adaptor return.

-Robert

This seems disingenuous since I can't find a single Blu-ray player on your promotion page.
Do you educate your customer on the fact that they don't play CDs?
Can someone expect fairness from a site with a giant "Authorized Nationwide Toshiba e-Commerce Dealer" banner on their site.

This is not really in the "news" category. Still it is not often tha I can quote dkos on AVS.

Blu-ray is dead. Or how Sony made the same mistake twice (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/19/173415/573)

Yes, its the same old porn thing. Not that I agree with it - still interesting ....

Here's a funny question: do you even sell them and why?

Yep, they're in stock and ready to go. This is the only place that I have ever seen sell only one Xbox accessory, heck, I don't even see a listing for the actual XBox console itself... :confused:

b2b

It *is* a feeble argument.
People don't buy HD DVD players for upconversion. They buy them for HD DVDs.

Also, the "majority" if you want specifics seems to be the XBOX 360 add on, and it ONLY supports upconversion via the VGA adapter (and seems to be more finicky than any HDMI problems out there).

What will the argument be when the PS3 is updated to add upconversion? I think it will be like when BD50's hit the market, all of a sudden it no longer matters.

I disagree ... though while I can't speak for 'people', I can speak for myself. If I'm going to replace my DVD player with 'something else' that is either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray ... why would I want to keep the DVD player in my rack? What would be the purpose of keeping another piece of equipment that I'm for all intents and purposes 'upgrading'? That said, I don't want to just throw out my entire library of DVD's ... so ... I want something that can play both the legacy format and the new format. Since they're on 'similar media' (from a non-techie point of view) ... I would expect this to work. For a decade, we've been able to play CD's in our DVD players (why shouldn't we be able to? They look the same!) ... why should this be any different?

Also, the 360 can upscale content just fine via the component outputs. VGA is for the 1080p output.

When/If the PS3 manages to add upconversion, then yes, the argument would be moot. But, then, I suppose the benefits of Blu-Ray in capacity and Bandwidth won't matter when/if Toshiba standardizes TL51 and does so without leaving all legacy players in the dust.

For me, it comes down to this: a $500-600 PS3 can't scale content -- be it Blu-Ray, DVD's, or Games. A $300-400 Xbox can ... and ... if I *choose*, I can buy an HD-DVD add on for $150 to boot -- which is still cheaper than what is offered by the PS3, while giving me more features and options.

This seems disingenuous since I can't find a single Blu-ray player on your promotion page.
Do you educate your customer on the fact that they don't play CDs?
But who can expect fairness from someone with a giant "Authorized Nationwide Toshiba e-Commerce Dealer" banner on their site.

dude your blind, try clicking on the link that says "Blu-ray players are here" right below the tosh. Heres the link in case your lazy:

http://www.*********************/Panasonic%20DMP-BD10.htm

DTV TiVo Dealer is the same guy who told us that Samsung's manual stated the player wouldn't play 50 GB discs. This was bad enough, but he did it long after that "fact" had been debunked. He just went around posting debunked anti-BD propaganda as fact. And like Amir, he never criticizes the worst excesses from the likes of rdjam, whopper, etc. while tilting every sentence towards a hard sell of HD-DVD.

Wait until you see Toshiba's new marketing materials. Or try to sell one at Circuit City or Best Buy.

What would be the easier sell, a player that also "upconverts your existing DVD collection to near HD quality" and plays all your CD's along with playing the new HD DVD discs with your new HD TV? for $499 or less street price.

or a "play"station 3 with no remote that doesn't upconvert but plays Blu-ray discs and CD's (what's a Blu-ray again??)

or a or $799 or a new $999 or $1299 or $1499 player that does the same thing?

Considering all the mud slinging, I think that Toshiba should start a campaign with literature that states: To take advantage of Blu-Ray DVD, you need to have a Blu-Ray TV, which doesn't even exist yet! Why spend money on a player that has no compatible television?

However, to take full advantage of HD-DVD, all you need is an HDTV! :p

They can use the same printing/marketing company that did Sony's "Price Comparison for Xbox 360 and PS3" ... :p

PeterTHX we are also authorized Pioneer, Pioneer Elite and Panasonic BD player dealers and sell a high volume of their players. I am sorry to say I honestly did not know BD players did not support audio CD playback till a few weeks ago and have been out on a medical issue so our site has not been updated to reflect the lack of CD support. The text and technical specifications listed on my site are an exact cut and paste from the manufacturers sites and pdf data sheets.

We have taken our lumps for not disclosing this and have supported our customers with complaints. In fact, several BD customer who returned or sold their BD players at a loss were sold XA2s at my cost as a personal courtesy.

We try very hard to always do the right thing, sometimes we fall short of our goals, but we always make good on our dedication to deliver the highest level of customer service and support.

I will take your and B2B's good advice to make it clear on our site that CD playback is not supported.

-Robert

I disagree ... though while I can't speak for 'people', I can speak for myself. If I'm going to replace my DVD player with 'something else' that is either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray ... why would I want to keep the DVD player in my rack? What would be the purpose of keeping another piece of equipment that I'm for all intents and purposes 'upgrading'? That said, I don't want to just throw out my entire library of DVD's ... so ... I want something that can play both the legacy format and the new format. Since they're on 'similar media' (from a non-techie point of view) ... I would expect this to work. For a decade, we've been able to play CD's in our DVD players (why shouldn't we be able to? They look the same!) ... why should this be any different?

Also, the 360 can upscale content just fine via the component outputs. VGA is for the 1080p output.

When/If the PS3 manages to add upconversion, then yes, the argument would be moot. But, then, I suppose the benefits of Blu-Ray in capacity and Bandwidth won't matter when/if Toshiba standardizes TL51 and does so without leaving all legacy players in the dust.

For me, it comes down to this: a $500-600 PS3 can't scale content -- be it Blu-Ray, DVD's, or Games. A $300-400 Xbox can ... and ... if I *choose*, I can buy an HD-DVD add on for $150 to boot -- which is still cheaper than what is offered by the PS3, while giving me more features and options.

Better check on that again (DVD upscaling) before you plunk down your $$ on the XbAO.. ;)

b2b

DTV TiVo Dealer is the same guy who told us that Samsung's manual stated the player wouldn't play 50 GB discs. This was bad enough, but he did it long after that "fact" had been debunked. He just went around posting debunked anti-BD propaganda as fact. And like Amir, he never criticizes the worst excesses from the likes of rdjam, whopper, etc. while tilting every sentence towards a hard sell of HD-DVD.

Rob you are correct and I am sorry for my mis-information.

-Robert

Whereas we have never receive a single xBox adaptor return.

Here's a funny question: do you even sell them and why?

Yes we sell the xBox HD DVD adaptor in very high volume. We do so because we sell most HD DVD and BD players, that's our business speciality.

-Robert

The left wing Daily Kos is now a tech news source?

HD DVD folks seem to be getting more desperate for news.

Never mind the fact Vivid and other companies are planning Blu-ray porn releases.
Or the fact that Vivid says DVD accounts for only 40% of their income, the rest is from DOWNLOAD.

^ The porn industry went HD DVD.

-Robert

42" or more?

Best Buy:

Cheapest Toshiba: Toshiba - TheaterWide 50" DLP HDTV 50HM66 - $1149
Cheapest 42"+: Samsung - 42" DLP HDTV HL-S4266W - $949

Difference: $200. Go figure.

Gary

That's not apples to apples though ... what's the Cheapest 50" Samsung? I see 50" DLP HDTV HL-S5086W at @ $1299 (on sale from $1499).

Either way, the Toshiba is still $150 Cheaper than the Samsung, plus you get another $200 off if you pick up an HD-DVD player. I know where my money would be going. In fact, I have to replace a Philips Lycos Set ... doesn't seem like a bad deal at all. *shrug*

PeterTHX we are also authorized Pioneer, Pioneer Elite and Panasonic BD player dealers and sell a high volume of their players. I am sorry to say I honestly did not know BD players did not support audio CD playback till a few weeks ago and have been out on a medical issue so our site has not been updated to reflect the lack of CD support. The text and technical specifications listed on my site are an exact cut and paste from the manufacturers sites and pdf data sheets.

We have taken our lumps for not disclosing this and have supported our customers with complaints. In fact, several BD customer who returned or sold their BD players at a loss were sold XA2s at my cost as a personal courtesy.

We try very hard to always do the right thing, sometimes we fall short of our goals, but we always make good on our dedication to deliver the highest level of customer service and support.

I will take your and B2B's good advice to make it clear on our site that CD playback is not supported.

-RobertRobert, please make sure not to put this "Doesn't play CD" notice on all BD players! I hope you know which ones do and which ones don't! :) It will also help if you don't say "BD players don't play CD" because that is also misleading.

I will ask you this (if I may): What is the percentage return rate for Pioneer's and Sony's BD players? And if you may it will be helpful if you can disclose how many you sold (in ballpark, of course).

DTV TiVo Dealer is the same guy who told us that Samsung's manual stated the player wouldn't play 50 GB discs. This was bad enough, but he did it long after that "fact" had been debunked. He just went around posting debunked anti-BD propaganda as fact. And like Amir, he never criticizes the worst excesses from the likes of rdjam, whopper, etc. while tilting every sentence towards a hard sell of HD-DVD.


I'm sorry, but I don't think Rob Zuber should be criticizing other posters for their "excesses".

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

This seems disingenuous since I can't find a single Blu-ray player on your promotion page.
Do you educate your customer on the fact that they don't play CDs?
But who can expect fairness from someone with a giant "Authorized Nationwide Toshiba e-Commerce Dealer" banner on their site.


Peter, you just love to spread sunshine all around the internet, don't you?

I'm still waiting for David Manning to appear on this thread ... :p

kdragon I have just corrected the BD audio CD playback specs. on my site and believe I have it all correct. The only two that now clearly say "does not support CD playback are the Pioneer and Sony. For the Panasonic BMP-BD10 I stated "may not support all audio CD discs"

Sorry I do not want to give sales and returns information here, but I will say we sold a couple hundred combined BD players and returns are about 10% of total sales.

Unfortunate, I will add to the above statement by saying Sony and Panasonic will not take back DOA units for replacement or credit. Their company policy is to have the customer send in the out of box defective BD player for repair. This has increased the return rate and stuck us with many players. This is a very unfriendly customer service and dealer policy.

Thing like this make me and I would assume other dealers anti BD.

-Robert

This seems disingenuous since I can't find a single Blu-ray player on your promotion page.
Do you educate your customer on the fact that they don't play CDs?
But who can expect fairness from someone with a giant "Authorized Nationwide Toshiba e-Commerce Dealer" banner on their site.

No kidding, I myself refuse to read anything other than the highly quality and objective posts from the likes of PeterTHX.

^ Every day we improve ourselves and I lean the most from my toughest critisizers as they are sometimes correct.

-Robert

kdragon I have just corrected the BD audio CD playback specs. on my site and believe I have it all correct. The only two that now clearly say "does not support CD playback are the Pioneer and Sony. For the Panasonic BMP-BD10 I stated "may not support all audio CD discs"

Sorry I do not want to give sales and returns information here, but I will say we sold a couple hundred combined BD players and returns are about 10% of total sales.

Unfortunate, I will add to the above statement by saying Sony and Panasonic will not take back DOA units for replacement or credit. Their company policy is to have the customer send in the out of box defective BD player for repair. This has increased the return rate and stuck us with many players. This is a very unfriendly customer service and dealer policy.

Thing like this make me and I would assume other dealers anti BD.

-RobertThanks Robert (although it doesn't directly answer what I asked).

The reason I asked about Sony and Pioneer returns was because those players don't play CD's, and are otherwise considered good BD players. Wanted to understand if people returned them because of the lack of CD playback capability (that would have been my second question: DoA will have to be subtracted from total returns of these players). Since you also sold Samsung, 10% combined may have a huge tilt in the "favor" of Samsung!

Anyway, I will let it go.

By the way, about this DoA policy of Sony and Panasonic: Isn't it illegal in US? Sounds a bit contradictory. Sorry, I don't know much about retail business -- probably you are talking about your end. If they don't take units back from a dealer, then I think I understand what you are saying. I have never returned a Sony item (or Panasonic for that matter) so far, so I don't have first hand experience (very lucky!).

[PS: This makes me suspect even more than before the arrogance of BD companies. Except, maybe, Samsung]

kdragon, we have never sold any Samsung BD players. I do like the spec's of the new Samsung BD model coming this summer so I think we will carry it.

You didn't ask, but I will say I like the Pioneer and Panasonic BD players best. I personally own Panasoinic's BMP-BD10 and it works great. I also appreciate their firmware updates and commitment to upgrade to TrueHD audio. No other DB hardware company has given us as much support.

Not sure if it's legale for these suppliers to refuse to take back initial failure DOA units from dealers, but they do.

-Robert

Ben I'm going to bite on this one if you'll allow me. :)

Putting it into NDA-friendly terms, assuming an HD30 costs x amount to replicate, then how many times that cost is it in order to replicate a BD50 y?
I've yet to see a BD-50 replication quote not subsidized by Sony.

I'd appreciate one if someone has something they can share :).

HD DVD-30 quotes are widely available.

Robert,

you are a really good person. Your diplomacy and aplomb is admirable. I'm glad that I did business (and will continue) with Value Electronics. Best of health and wishes in this new year.

I've yet to see a BD-50 replication quote not subsidized by Sony.

I'd appreciate one if someone has something they can share :).

HD DVD-30 quotes are widely available.

Well I'm not picky - you can give me the subsidized multiple if you like.

kdragon, we have never sold any Samsung BD players. I do like the spec's of the new Samsung BD model coming this summer so I think we will carry it.

You didn't ask, but I will say I like the Pioneer and Panasonic BD players best. I personally own Panasoinic's BMP-BD10 and it works great. I also appreciate their firmware updates and commitment to upgrade to TrueHD audio. No other DB hardware company has given us as much support.

Not sure if it's legale for these suppliers to refuse to take back initial failure DOA units from dealers, but they do.

-Robert

I agree with you 100% that is a piss-poor customer service policy for both you as a wholesale customer and the end-user customer. What is does is force the end-user to have money tied up in a product that doesn't work or places the burden on you to make good on the merchandise (at your loss). I could see where that would give you a less than favorable attitude towards certain suppliers.

b2b

kdragon, we have never sold any Samsung BD players. I do like the spec's of the new Samsung BD model coming this summer so I think we will carry it. Oops! Sorry! Somehow I thought you did! :o

You didn't ask, but I will say I like the Pioneer and Panasonic BD players best. I personally own Panasoinic's BMP-BD10 and it works great. I also appreciate their firmware updates and commitment to upgrade to TrueHD audio. No other DB hardware company has given us as much support. I appreciate your honest opinion.

Not sure if it's legale for these suppliers to refuse to take back initial failure DOA units from dealers, but they do.Strange indeed! Well, I hope you make decent margins on BD players to cover those DoA's! These high prices have to go somewhere! :p

I've yet to see a BD-50 replication quote not subsidized by Sony.

Well, it can be argued that there are no players on the market not built by Toshiba, so Toshiba is subsidizing their entire industry in one way or the other (along with Microsoft).

kdragon, we have never sold any Samsung BD players. I do like the spec's of the new Samsung BD model coming this summer so I think we will carry it.

You didn't ask, but I will say I like the Pioneer and Panasonic BD players best. I personally own Panasoinic's BMP-BD10 and it works great. I also appreciate their firmware updates and commitment to upgrade to TrueHD audio. No other DB hardware company has given us as much support.

Not sure if it's legale for these suppliers to refuse to take back initial failure DOA units from dealers, but they do.

-Robert

Robert, thank you for your honesty.

Well, it can be argued that there are no players on the market not built by Toshiba, so Toshiba is subsidizing their entire industry in one way or the other (along with Microsoft).

Well, I think people would say "right back at ya" with respect to the PS/3, to a large degree. :)

But, if the PS/3 isn't used 100% as a BD player, then what percentage of the total subsidy is actually attributable to BD player use? If a PS/3 is subsidized $200 a pop, and only 10% are used to play BD movies, then the per unit BD player subsidy is only $20. The other 9/10 are only using it for the extra capacity and copy protection.

I'm sure some folks will want to have it both ways (low use, high subsidy assignment).

Gary

PeterTHX we are also authorized Pioneer, Pioneer Elite and Panasonic BD player dealers and sell a high volume of their players. I am sorry to say I honestly did not know BD players did not support audio CD playback till a few weeks ago and have been out on a medical issue so our site has not been updated to reflect the lack of CD support. The text and technical specifications listed on my site are an exact cut and paste from the manufacturers sites and pdf data sheets.

We have taken our lumps for not disclosing this and have supported our customers with complaints. In fact, several BD customer who returned or sold their BD players at a loss were sold XA2s at my cost as a personal courtesy.

We try very hard to always do the right thing, sometimes we fall short of our goals, but we always make good on our dedication to deliver the highest level of customer service and support.

I will take your and B2B's good advice to make it clear on our site that CD playback is not supported.

-Robert

Appreciated. However, you *could* have sold them Panasonics instead :D

No kidding, I myself refuse to read anything other than the highly quality and objective posts from the likes of PeterTHX.

Astroturfer.

Much has been posted back and forth regarding the content depth available to the two formats. I've been doing some work on imdb and have come up with the following numbers. These were collected by looking for distributors. I wanted to understand how many titles everyone has distribution rights to. I'm looking for peer review, so feel free to provide feedback.

Notes: Columbia is not listed out seperately. This is because titles I find when looking under Columbia show up under Sony or Fox as well (search for Spiderman). Similarly MGM sold the rights to its pre 1986 content which is now owned by Warner. I also didn't account for the fact that you can actually get Lionsgate content from EU resellers in HD-DVD. Since there is no region coding in HD-DVD these discs can be used in North America. I know I didn't capture every dual release studio, but the ones I missed will be added to both sides of the ledger. As for Adult content, Vivid will release in both formats. The other Adult studios that plan to release in HD are HD-DVD exclusive. These are Digital Playground Inc., Wicked Pictures, Pink Visual, Bang Bros, and ClubJenna Inc. The final item is small Indy studios. I suspect that many of these will find it more affordable to do small low cost production runs in HD-DVD. I believe this is why most of the Adult studios decided to go with HD-DVD exclusively.

BD

Lionsgate 786
Sony Pictures 2249
Fox 7612
Buena Vista (Disney) 2275
MGM (1986 and later) 1003
Warner 8274
Paramount 7118

TOTAL 29317

HD-DVD

Warner 8274
Paramount 7118
Universal 13285
Bandai 152
Weinstein 109
HBO 1059
New Line Cinema 591

TOTAL 30588

Catalog depth on both sides seems pretty similar . About half of the catalog depth is available to both formats.

Astroturfer.

Huh? :confused:

I've been doing some work on imdb and have come up with the following numbers.


The three HD DVD studios are old timers, and Warner has a huge whack of the MGM oldies, while Universal pulls all the Paramount pre-1956 into the HD DVD camp exclusively.

HBO/New line are distributed by Warner, so they need to go neutral.

Want a new headache? What about filmed colour television? :D

Gary

Much has been posted back and forth regarding the content depth available to the two formats. I've been doing some work on imdb and have come up with the following numbers. These were collected by looking for distributors. I wanted to understand how many titles everyone has distribution rights to. I'm looking for peer review, so feel free to provide feedback.

Notes: Columbia is not listed out seperately. This is because titles I find when looking under Columbia show up under Sony or Fox as well (search for Spiderman). Similarly MGM sold the rights to its pre 1986 content which is now owned by Warner. I also didn't account for the fact that you can actually get Lionsgate content from EU resellers in HD-DVD. Since there is no region coding in HD-DVD these discs can be used in North America. I know I didn't capture every dual release studio, but the ones I missed will be added to both sides of the ledger. As for Adult content, Vivid will release in both formats. The other Adult studios that plan to release in HD are HD-DVD exclusive. These are Digital Playground Inc., Wicked Pictures, Pink Visual, Bang Bros, and ClubJenna Inc. The final item is small Indy studios. I suspect that many of these will find it more affordable to do small low cost production runs in HD-DVD. I believe this is why most of the Adult studios decided to go with HD-DVD exclusively.

BD

Lionsgate 786
Sony Pictures 2249
Fox 7612
Buena Vista (Disney) 2275
MGM (1986 and later) 1003
Warner 8274
Paramount 7118
TOTAL 29317

HD-DVD

Warner 8274
Paramount 7118
Universal 13285
New Line Cinema
Bandai 152
Weinstein 109
HBO 1059
New Line Cinema 591

TOTAL 30588

Catalog depth on both sides seems pretty similar . About half of the catalog depth is available to both formats.

New Line, HBO, Weinstein and Bandai are all Blu-ray disc suppliers as well. Tri-Star is part of Sony. MGM controls Orion and a few extinct smaller studios. United Artists content is part of MGM (not all pre-1986 things are Warner, like "Rocky" and the James Bond franchise).

New Line, HBO, Weinstein and Bandai are all Blu-ray disc suppliers as well. Tri-Star is part of Sony. MGM controls Orion and a few extinct smaller studios. United Artists content is part of MGM (not all pre-1986 things are Warner, like "Rocky" and the James Bond franchise).

Thanks for the corrections. I got some bad info from wikipedia on this. I'll correct the list once everyone has had a chance to post.

Weinstein and Bandai are HD DVD exclusive right now, aren't they?

Weinstein and Bandai are HD DVD exclusive right now, aren't they?

For now they have releases in North America on HD DVD only, like Paramount and Warner did earlier last year. BD versions are coming though (and Bandai already has BD Japanese releases).

Weinstein and Bandai are HD DVD exclusive right now, aren't they?

I think the major confusion about "Weinstein" is the "old" (Miramax) vs. "new" (Weinstein Company). All the Miramax titles are still Disney controlled.

b2b

Because you can't add extra security features after the spec is finalized. But, you can choose when to start using those extra features.

Are people actually complaining that BD doesn't use BD+ right now?

Gary

Could be time to roll that BD+ protection out soon then so muslix64 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=939873#post939873) can have a look at it.

In less that 24 hours, without any Blu-Ray equipment, but with the help of Janvitos, I managed to decrypt and play a Blu-Ray media file using my known-plaintext attack...

The file from the movie "Lord of war", play well with VideoLan.

Janvitos gave me few files on the BD disc and a memory dump...

Note that I don't address BD+. The file don't seem to be BD+ protected.

I will keep you informed If I found anything new...

Thanks for the corrections. I got some bad info from wikipedia on this. I'll correct the list once everyone has had a chance to post. We so have bferr1's stickty thread on this (AFI top 100 list thread) that evolved into a studio list of unreleased movies.It would help if you could post results there also.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=715977

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
We do - PS3 at $499. You do realize that the reason the Toshiba low-end players have been cheaper has everything to do with market strategy (some would call it desperation) and nothing to do with actual build costs, right? And that the only reason most of the Blu-ray players are more expensive is because at current demand levels current pricing is completely supportable?

Well the new Toshiba promotion coming up for $200 off a HDTV and HD DVD combo with other dealer incentives certainly implies there is some margin here for Toshiba on the HD A2s.

Again, high prices may be defensible, but lower prices for the same or superior performance are a better value for the consumer. ;)

Even if teh margin is reduced, penetration pricing is a smart move. By ythe way, anybody hear that Chinese players are coming???? :D

By ythe way, anybody hear that Chinese players are coming???? :DI've heard it. I believe I ordered a Chinese manufactured player yesterday when I ordered the HD-A2. I'll check to see if it says anything about where it was made when I get it. It will be interesting to see how much lower players manufactured in China for Chinese companies are compared to players manufactured in China for Toshiba are.

--Darin

Could be time to roll that BD+ protection out soon then so muslix64 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=939873#post939873) can have a look at it.

I'm not sure he did anything.

He got a file from someone and cracked the encryption with a tool? The file is short, and is a copyright message. It might be a joke on LGF's part. Giving them something they can crack. :)

He says it's a file from Lord of War, not the actual movie.

Gary

I'm not sure he did anything.

Boy, does that sound familiar... :rolleyes:

But, agree that the proof is in the posted keys. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam
Note that these THREE BR player profiles stand as opposed to one advanced profile in HD DVD - which includes all the key things the three BD profiles include, such as Networking, PiP, etc - right from the first HD DVD player shipped... And don't include 20GB of capacity, 18Mb/s of bandwidth, support from 50% of the major studios, good recordable support, support from more than one major CE vendor, ...

Which do you think we'll see first - HD DVD supporting all those things, or Blu-ray supporting secondary video and networking?

Just meditated about this exchange from yesterday.

If Blu-ray's advantages of:

20 GB more capacity : is countered by TL 51 HD DVD discs or network storage and internet downloading

18 M/bps of bandwidth: is wasted because of using MPEG-2 or LPCM or is negated because HD DVD can get an extra 15 mps from a networked stream or may create more bandwidth on the TL 51 discs

Good recordable support : consumers don't care about more than 30 GB of recordable support just like SL DVD-R's vastly outsell DL DVD-Rs right now Flash memory and HDD makes 20 GB difference look silly

Support from more than one CE vendor : Hmm what about the Chinese makers, Onkyo probably Meridian ( ok no product announcement just just HD DVD Promo group membership) LG kinda counts, Samsung has a HD DVD drive in their new laptops and Toshiba is producing 100,000's of HD DVD players versus 10,000's for the other CE makers. Oh ya, there is a Microsoft HD DVD thingy for the Xbox 360 that can get 10 million people into HD DVD for under $199.

Studio support : will follow the dollars. If HD DVD makes $600 million split between 3 studios next year, how long will it take the studios beside Sony and Fox to stay BD only.

And ya, when Blu-ray is "supporting secondary video and networking?" they will do so at the expense of the first generation "buyer beware' Blu-ray player owners.

I've heard it. I believe I ordered a Chinese manufactured player yesterday when I ordered the HD-A2. I'll check to see if it says anything about where it was made when I get it. It will be interesting to see how much lower players manufactured in China for Chinese companies are compared to players manufactured in China for Toshiba are.

--Darin Difference in cost can be designed and built in mainland China versus just built there. Or if the design is based on a refernce SoC design.

The HD A2's are not quite SoC as they still have the Intel CPU's. Costs will come down once those functions are burnt into silicon.

Boy, does that sound familiar... :rolleyes:

But, agree that the proof is in the posted keys. :)

Yep, and a title in the wild.

I wonder if Microsoft wishes it had blocked PC use now?

Gary

I wonder if Microsoft wishes it had blocked PC use now?Why would they wish that? It isn't their content.

--Darin