Format Battle General Discussion Thread: Discuss it here! [Text View] - Page 17

What'sHD

01-29-07, 08:58 PM

How did I know someone would make this argument next?

OK, let's take a BD50, load up a 28-30Mbps VC1 encode of King Kong (a 3 hour film) with a 5.1 LPCM track. How much room is left over for extras then? Just about none.

So if you are suggesting that King Kong could be loaded with extras while also running VC1 at a very high bitrate (past the point of diminishing returns) with a LPCM audio track on a Blu Ray50 disc, you are mistaken.

As for any potential video and audio improvements that might be afforded by the spike in VC1 bitrate and the LPCM audio over the HD DVD release? There would probably be little to none based upon on all of the current reviews.

Could they take the same VC1 encode and DD+ audio that they used on the HD DVD and pack it on a BD50 and then add extras? Sure they could. They could also make it a 2 disc HD DVD set and pack in even more goodies while giving the customer more percieved value from a marketing perspective.

Blu Ray is not the answer.
Blu Ray is a better answer than HD-DVD for any variant of high def content.

Its not perfect.. only lossless video + sound is perfect and we know which format is closer. When it comes down to it, HD-DVD does not approach BD in technical specs. Doubling the discs is a viable option yes but I and AV fans will take the higher bitrate Video anyday with the lossless sound.

The point was that KK would prob have visibly suffered PQ-wise if bitrate had been reduced any further. BD would have given Universal an even better looking picture and some room for extras, if they so chose.

If you own toshiba stock, I suggest you agitate against HD51 given your above views.

Sean_O

01-29-07, 09:24 PM

The point was that KK would prob have visibly suffered PQ-wise if bitrate had been reduced any further. BD would have given Universal an even better looking picture and some room for extras, if they so chose.

It also would have cost them a lot more money for a negligible improvement (if any at all)... or rather it would have cost Sony a lot more money to eat the subsidy costs. Blu Ray is much more expensive to produce. That is one big strike against your argument that Blu Ray is a better answer than HD-DVD for any variant of high def content.

If Universal really wanted to load up KK with extras, they would have released a 2 disc set and it would have been more attractive to most customers anyway from a value perspective. It's not the way I think, but it's a market reality.

Capek

01-29-07, 09:30 PM

From the news thread about Warner's 2007 releases

Does anyone know why these are HD DVD only ?
Because Sun Microsystems employees spend more time posting on this forum then working on BD-J? ;)

nataraj

01-29-07, 09:32 PM

Its not perfect.. only lossless video + sound is perfect and we know which format is closer.

Do you even know what % of lossless video is kept in a BD-50 / HDDVD-30 ?

nataraj

01-29-07, 09:33 PM

Because Sun Microsystems employees spend more time posting on this forum then working on BD-J? ;)

It is also possible, that Sun doesn't want that particular employee to work on BD-J (just like I'm sure MS doesn't want me to work on HDi) :D

rdjam

01-29-07, 09:41 PM

From the news thread about Warner's 2007 releases

Does anyone know why these are HD DVD only ?
Because Sun Microsystems employees spend more time posting on this forum then working on BD-J? ;)
Hah!! Touche! :p

rover2002

01-29-07, 09:43 PM

It is also possible, that Sun doesn't want that particular employee to work on BD-J (just like I'm sure MS doesn't want me to work on HDi) :D
I actully think 'TalK' works for the HD DVD camp as some of the BS he posts turns me 180 away from BR.

Timothy Ramzyk

01-29-07, 09:48 PM

link posted by sknight1 in the news thread

Sony 3rd-Quarter Profit May Fall 50% on PlayStation 3
http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aAQ16Hzzwzuc&refer=home

Wii Wins

The game division, Sony's second-largest by revenue, probably lost 50.9 billion yen during the quarter, compared with a profit of 67.8 billion yen a year earlier, after sales fell 7 percent, according to the Bloomberg survey.

Funny thing is that the article makes no mention of the whole HD VS BD thing, or even the BD thing at all. That gives some indication of just how little it currently figures into their solvency and profit forecasts.

It also gives an idea of what HUGE company Sony is that they can slurp up such loses and still have things like cameras and TVs bail them out.

WayneL

01-29-07, 09:57 PM

Strange they're going to market with a unit they wholly owned, then. Must really need that 300-400B Y.

Richard Paul

01-29-07, 10:29 PM

That's rich, coming from the folks who attacked the Amazon numbers for months as being lies, and attacking Amazon for being in Microsoft's pocket and falsifying numbersJust to point this out but strawman arguments like this one are way to common on this forum. Granted there were some Blu-ray supporters who wondered at how important the Amazon sales figures were a few months ago just as there are now some HD DVD supporters who now wonder how important the Amazon sales figures are. In my opinion there is no reason to make such broad exaggerated statements against all supporters of a format since that does nothing but cause animosity.

I don't think the overall trend toward BD will/can be seen until the total cumulative BD disk sales exceed HD sales. I doubt that will happen for a long while.If sales are far higher today than they used to be and are continuing to grow, which are both likely, than total disc sales for Blu-ray could surpass total HD DVD sales in a relatively short period of time.

From the news thread about Warner's 2007 releasesTechnically they are from the French list of Warner releases in 2007 and I have not heard yet about the North American list of Warner releases in 2007.

Does anyone know why these are HD DVD only ?Come on nataraj it is not hard to see that it is related to the fact that they all have a PiP video track.

BD-J problems I think.Because Sun Microsystems employees spend more time posting on this forum then working on BD-J?Actually it has little to do with BD-J. What it has to do with is a secondary video decoder which was required on HD DVD day one but will not be required on Blu-ray players until June of this year. Of course many that mention this tend to forget to note that the secondary video decoder required for Blu-ray has to be capable of decoding bit rates far higher than on HD DVD.

rdjam

01-29-07, 10:30 PM

You have it backwards. The VC-1 encoder can produce a 24p BD encode by default. The file has to be run through a utility for HD-DVD to add the telecine flags (to make it 60i).

Ron
Hi Ron,

I can now confidently state that you have it 100% incorrect. Confirmd by Microsoft, who wrote the software...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9625101&&#post9625101

My outlines on the matter are correct.

rdjam

01-29-07, 10:32 PM

Just to point this out but strawman arguments... (SNIP'd)
ignored

alfbinet

01-29-07, 10:32 PM

Talk, why would companies like ONKYO, MERIDIAN, ALPINE, LG, LITE-ON, and 5 Chinese manufacturers recently choose HD DVD, if all the sales are on the BD side.? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

It seems like you´re afraid of the upcomming sub $199,- HD DVD players. Those companies are able to produce and sell more HD DVD players, than the BD side could even dream of. :D

Let Meridian come out with a statement that they are in negotiations with BD group to make a Blu-ray player. How does that go Talk? And does your employer know you post to these forums? And how is the interactive features for BD going? Something else. It seems that the lack of "resume feature" on current HD DVD titles may be tied to interactive features on the HD DVDs. With full implementation of BD-J will we see lack of resume features as well?

dr1394

01-29-07, 10:36 PM

Hi Ron,

I can now confidently state that you have it 100% incorrect. Confirmd by Microsoft, who wrote the software...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9625101&&#post9625101

My outlines on the matter are correct.
Sorry for the confusion. But it seems like such a minor point. What was the original argument?

Ron

rdjam

01-29-07, 10:45 PM

Sorry for the confusion. No probs - we all can make mistakes, you know.

But it seems like such a minor point. What was the original argument?

Ron http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9621642&&#post9621642

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9622069&&#post9622069

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9624154&&#post9624154

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9625101&&#post9625101

dr1394

01-29-07, 10:50 PM

No, I mean what was the original argument between you and darinp2?

Ron

kdragon

01-29-07, 10:50 PM

No probs - we all can make mistakes, you know.<snip>
...but only a few of us accept them! :) :p

*ducks for cover*

rdjam

01-29-07, 10:52 PM

No, I mean what was the original argument between you and darinp2?

Ron Let's not go there :) Feel free to scan the last few pages :rolleyes:

...but only a few of us accept them! :) :p

*ducks for cover*Heh! Watchit - Dp2's gonna get you for talk like that ;)

thomopolis

01-29-07, 11:01 PM

totally ignored...

whenever you type something like this I get flashbacks to my older sister yelling "I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU!!!" after she slammed her bedroom door.

she was eight. I was five.

Maybe the bickering can elevate back into a debate rather than a spitball fight?

nataraj

01-29-07, 11:08 PM

Come on nataraj it is not hard to see that it is related to the fact that they all have a PiP video track.

But they don't need to, right ? As a matter of fact, I didn't see this angle.

Actually it has little to do with BD-J. What it has to do with is a secondary video decoder which was required on HD DVD day one but will not be required on Blu-ray players until June of this year. Of course many that mention this tend to forget to note that the secondary video decoder required for Blu-ray has to be capable of decoding bit rates far higher than on HD DVD.

Can PS3 do PIP ?

In anycase, all these are coming June and later. So, whats the problem then ?

alfbinet

01-29-07, 11:21 PM

It is also possible, that Sun doesn't want that particular employee to work on BD-J (just like I'm sure MS doesn't want me to work on HDi) :D

You mean "B..l?"

I thought that all industry insiders were supposed to list their employers per requests from others outside the industry...Oh wait, maybe it was just Amir they wanted to list his company affiliatiation. In his posts, Amir does, Talk doesn't, and I would really like to know the company he works for...Sun maybe?

Play it fair guys. If your company has a stake in this format war at least let us know which company you work for? Not hard, and it would be honest.

b2bonez

01-29-07, 11:34 PM

Capek

01-29-07, 11:54 PM

Update on the HD-DVD combo poll..

Only 21.29% of people see enough value to combo discs to be worth paying extra for..

Looks like Uni might have to pick up the tab when 90% of their releases go combo... ;)

b2b
Consistently the best selling HD-DVD over the last few months has been Superman Returns, a combo. The HD-DVD version of The Departed, a combo, has consistently had a higher sales ranking on amazon then the BD version.

But don't let reality get in the way of you posting whatever biased thought pops up in your pretty little head. ;)

AnthonyP

01-30-07, 12:04 AM

Talk, why would companies like ONKYO, MERIDIAN, ALPINE, LG, LITE-ON, and 5 Chinese manufacturers recently choose HD DVD, if all the sales are on the BD side.?
they did not. those mythical Chineses players were also anounced at last years CES. The LG is a BD player that can also play HD DVDs -but according to the DVD forum is not an HD DVD player
and lite-on has both BD and HD DVD drives but no players
Onkyo and Meridian and like last years Sanyo anouncement

b2bonez

01-30-07, 12:07 AM

Consistently the best selling HD-DVD over the last few months has been Superman Returns, a combo. The HD-DVD version of The Departed, a combo, has consistently had a higher sales ranking on amazon then the BD version.

But don't let reality get in the way of you posting whatever biased thought pops up in your pretty little head. ;)

Hey if you don't like the reality that people think combos aren't worth extra money, then post in the thread and tell all 356 of them they are fools for thinking that way.. And you might want to drop Amir a PM and ask him what was in his "pretty little head" for starting the poll in the first place.. :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795800

b2b

nataraj

01-30-07, 12:09 AM

Play it fair guys. If your company has a stake in this format war at least let us know which company you work for? Not hard, and it would be honest.

For the record, IIRC, talk says he doesn't work for Sun. So we are apparently talking about a fictious Sun employee spending time here instead of on BD-J.

BTW, this was one thing I pressed talk to disclose but I was shouted down by the BD 101 keyboarders.

AnthonyP

01-30-07, 12:18 AM

That's rich, coming from the folks who attacked the Amazon numbers for months as being lies, and attacking Amazon for being in Microsoft's pocket and falsifying numbers

DVD empire is a much smaller entity than Amazon and until the Videoscan numbers start becoming public, it'll be hard to know how the overall market is behaving.

amazon has ranking that allows and keeps preorders and that is short. A real buy does not coun't as much as a fake one because it drops off the books fast. The time period is also too slow and one title being bough can make one title jump by a lot in a minute. Like Plazmaman pointed out for available titles at around 500 two three titles more or less can make several hundred ranking difference. At the level titles were selling at the time a hand full of titles more or less sold on one format would make a difference of several thousend in the ranking (what I always maintained and why I was saying that those numbers were meaningless because they made an extremely small difference look like a lot)

On the other hand here we have a real relative number out of all the disks sold for the week roughly 34.54% were HD DVDs and 65.46% were BDs that means BD was roughly 2:1 HD DVD sales and growing

Steeb

01-30-07, 12:21 AM

Do you even know what % of lossless video is kept in a BD-50 / HDDVD-30 ?
Is it around 10%? I seem to remember Amir mentioning something like that, but I may be wrong...

Richard Paul

01-30-07, 12:35 AM

ignoredrdjam, I am somewhat surprised you bothered to edit your post from "totally ignored" to simply "ignored" though I guess that is a bit of an improvement. If you want to ignore my advice you can of course do so though I don't see any need for rudeness.

But they don't need to, right ? As a matter of fact, I didn't see this angle.If Warner really wants their Blu-ray discs to have the same features as their HD DVD discs, which is what they have said, they are probably not going to release those titles until they can test those secondary video streams on Blu-ray players capable of decoding them. If they can't do that it would be a good reason for them not to announce any Blu-ray titles with a secondary video stream until they are sure they would work.

Can PS3 do PIP ?Today it can't decode a secondary video stream, but that does not mean that it will not be able to do so in the future.

In anycase, all these are coming June and later. So, whats the problem then ?Not a bad question but how do you know that schedule of releases won't change as the months go by?

AnthonyP

01-30-07, 12:36 AM

You'd think they'd just eat the small difference (as most manufacturers do) when exchange rates fluctuate. Especially if there's already a price cut being planned.

it is not Sony but some merchants. The MRSP has not changed but since murchants don't read the BS posted here they don't know they have shelves full of PS3s and are using the drop in the CAD to increase profits.

AnthonyP

01-30-07, 12:40 AM

I agree, it makes no sense to me either. At the same time though, I've never seen BestBuy charge above list price. Aren't they at risk of being accused of price gouging? Maybe I'm wrong on this, but it strikes me as very strange behavior unless there is a price hike in the works for Canada.

Future shop is owned by BB so there is really one place that has raised the price. The thing is the stupid customer will go to BB, go to FS see the higher price in both and blame Sony.

Kosty

01-30-07, 01:19 AM

Kosty

01-30-07, 01:24 AM

For the record, IIRC, talk says he doesn't work for Sun Not quite accurate. Talk has never confirmed that he doesn't work there.

He has been very specific to state that he prefers to keep his employer private so that he can speak freely. But he has never specifically stated AFAIK that he does not work for Sun. He very pointedly said he refuse to confirm or deny any employment information.

FWIW , thats ok with me.

Kosty

01-30-07, 01:27 AM

Hey if you don't like the reality that people think combos aren't worth extra money, then post in the thread and tell all 356 of them they are fools for thinking that way.. And you might want to drop Amir a PM and ask him what was in his "pretty little head" for starting the poll in the first place.. :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795800

b2b Just because myself and others would prefer not to spend extra money on combos doesn't mean we think their a bad idea in the first place.

That was your first assertion. That poll shows most don't mind combos, we just don't want to play a lot for the priviledge.

Kosty

01-30-07, 01:30 AM

On the other hand here we have a real relative number out of all the disks sold for the week roughly 34.54% were HD DVDs and 65.46% were BDs that means BD was roughly 2:1 HD DVD sales and growing But thats from a site that has a sales volume far less than Amazon's in a month that has relatively slow sales post holiday.

Blu-ray sales have obviously improved but the sustainment and real volume of them is still an issue.

onanie

01-30-07, 01:31 AM

Hi Richard - your indignance is noted. But if you consider my publicly ignoring your post rude, perhaps consider the reason I ignored it was because I considered you calling posts "strawman arguments", as a debating tactic, "rude" also ;)

I hope that you'll be OK with that.

Perhaps it is not Rude if it comes from rdjam.

You clearly don't understand what you are proposing here, 1080i still delivers the same 2 million pixels - it just delivers them in fields. What your putting forward here is a bit of a straw argument.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9274850&&#post9274850

Capek

01-30-07, 01:32 AM

Kosty

01-30-07, 01:34 AM

Hi Richard - your indignance is noted. But if you consider my publicly ignoring your post rude, perhaps consider the reason I ignored it was because I considered you calling posts "strawman arguments", as a debating tactic, "rude" also ;)

I hope that you'll be OK with that.Rdjam, you know I agree with a lot of what you post, but sometimes you're like the crazy uncle in the attic. A little less testosterone please?

Watch a HD DVD movie and relax a bit. It'll get your blood pressure down. ;)

onanie

01-30-07, 01:34 AM

But thats from a site that has a sales volume far less than Amazon's in a month that has relatively slow sales post holiday.

Blu-ray sales have obviously improved but the sustainment and real volume of them is still an issue.

They actually improved beyond that of HD DVD, which is the real issue.

Do you have any data comparing DVD sales volumes between Amazon and DVDEmpire?

Capek

01-30-07, 01:40 AM

Hey if you don't like the reality that people think combos aren't worth extra money, then post in the thread and tell all 356 of them they are fools for thinking that way.. And you might want to drop Amir a PM and ask him what was in his "pretty little head" for starting the poll in the first place.. :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795800

b2b
b2b talking about reality. ^_^'

Well I'll just leave off by saying that my reality in which Rentrak’s Retail Essentials sales information and amazon sales rankings show that HD-DVD Combo disks sell better then any other HD-DVD and their BD counterpart trumps your reality in which a poll on avs -- in which only 16% said they didn't want combos at all -- is going to have some major impact on Universals plans wrt using combo disks. :p

What'sHD

01-30-07, 01:44 AM

It also would have cost them a lot more money for a negligible improvement (if any at all)... or rather it would have cost Sony a lot more money to eat the subsidy costs. Blu Ray is much more expensive to produce. That is one big strike against your argument that Blu Ray is a better answer than HD-DVD for any variant of high def content.
Let sony eat the losses on disc and PS3. I am thankful for their risk-taking and innovation for BD (BD50, CELL etc.). Why are you suddenly worried about sony's losses? Enjoy the high def instead of settling.. As long as sony is equalizing the costs of BD vs HD, the studios do not see it as a strike (duh).

Universal wouldn't have (seen it as a strike) either if they had used BD. Not too late though. I reckon I will see JPs on my PS3 by 2008.

I am talking solely from the perspective of a high def lover who wants the best-possible technical format to win. To me, anyone who claims lower specs make for better formats does not belong to the category of high def lover.

johnu

01-30-07, 01:56 AM

Just to point this out but strawman arguments like this one are way to common on this forum. Granted there were some Blu-ray supporters who wondered at how important the Amazon sales figures were a few months ago just as there are now some HD DVD supporters who now wonder how important the Amazon sales figures are. In my opinion there is no reason to make such broad exaggerated statements against all supporters of a format since that does nothing but cause animosity.

Please, stop the strawman analogies. He certainly wasn't implying 100% of BD supporters were guilty of this conduct. IMHO, it is certainly less than 99% :D

Kosty

01-30-07, 02:01 AM

They actually improved beyond that of HD DVD, which is the real issue.

Do you have any data comparing DVD sales volumes between Amazon and DVDEmpire? I'll look for the specific links, but Amazon online sales volumes are an order of magnitude higher.

Agreed that the Blu-ray sales has exceeded HD DVD in some indicators, which is significant. The most relevent issue there is if that can be sustained over time.

What'sHD

01-30-07, 02:03 AM

Perhaps it is not Rude if it comes from rdjam.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9274850&&#post9274850
Vastly entertaining :D thanks

his "posts" light up this forum, like a.. like a X'mas tree that has caught on fire from a short-circuit.

Kosty

01-30-07, 02:12 AM

..,I am talking solely from the perspective of a high def lover who wants the best-possible technical format to win. To me, anyone who claims lower specs make for better formats does not belong to the category of high def lover.

Well I am talking solely from the perspective of a high def lover who wants the most effective HD format to survive and prosper because that will allow more HD content to be available for all.

To me, anyone who claims that higher specs are the sole factors that make better formats does belong to the category of high def lover, but is narrowly focused on technical factors and is ignoring corporate politics, economics, consumer pricing and market adoption factors and price/performance issues .

If a format can do all the other can do at least cost and at a higher level of sustained PQ and AQ then it can be superior.

b2bonez

01-30-07, 02:28 AM

b2b talking about reality. ^_^'

Well I'll just leave off by saying that my reality in which Rentrak’s Retail Essentials sales information and amazon sales rankings show that HD-DVD Combo disks sell better then any other HD-DVD and their BD counterpart trumps your reality in which a poll on avs -- in which only 16% said they didn't want combos at all -- is going to have some major impact on Universals plans wrt using combo disks. :p

Hmm...
The best scenario would be that they would be the same price as a regular HD-DVD. But I voted for "Will pay $2 premium over normal HD DVDs". If I could get them for $20 as opposed to the $18 normal HD-DVDs cost from amazon, I wouldn't think twice about ordering them. The question wouldn't even enter my mind. As it is now, there are a couple titles that I have held out on purchasing because after the 10% discount they were still ~$25.50, which is enough of a premium over $18 that unless it is a title I really want, I'll hold off and hope to find a sale.

Does that mean you are holding off on "The Departed" combo ?? It's $27.95 on Amazon and ranked around 70-80. The Blu-Ray edition is ranked 70-80 too, but has the added bonus of being $4 dollars less ($23.95). ;)

b2b

Capek

01-30-07, 03:00 AM

Hmm...

Does that mean you are holding off on "The Departed" combo ?? It's $27.95 on Amazon and ranked around 70-80. The Blu-Ray edition is ranked 70-80 too, but has the added bonus of being $4 dollars less ($23.95). ;)

b2b
No, that is one of the ones I really want. I preordered it the first day it went up. But being a college student, my finances are such that I have to be discriminating with the ultimate number of titles I buy each month, combo or not. But checking my collection, 5 of my 39 HD-DVDs are combo disks. Four others are imports, so since about a quarter of my HD-DVDs I payed a premium for I guess you could say I'm one of the people who bought into the format expecting to pay more then I did with dvds.

And while I'm flattered that you'd take the time to check up on my past posts on the subject, I'm not really sure what your point is. Every time I've checked either of the two HD-DVD/BD ranking sites, the HD-DVD version of The Departed has had a higher rank then the BD version even though it is more expensive and doesn't have the advantage of sporting a superior audio track, which just reinforces my point that the outcry against combos on this forum is overblown on this forum itself and amounts to piddly squat in the real world.

Capek

01-30-07, 03:18 AM

For the record, IIRC, talk says he doesn't work for Sun. So we are apparently talking about a fictious Sun employee spending time here instead of on BD-J.

BTW, this was one thing I pressed talk to disclose but I was shouted down by the BD 101 keyboarders.
FWIW, since the question of Talk's identity still seems to be of interest to some people who might not have caught earlier discussions on the subject, I'll post what I found with a bit of searching. Amir's post, linked below, and Talk's follow up appear to be at or near the end of their banter on the subject, as best I can tell without doing more research then I am in the mood to do tonight.

Here Amir flatly states that an employee of Sun MS names Bill Sheppard posts on this forum under an alias, with the implication, acknowledged by Talk, that that employee is Talk:

We faced competition from Macromedia Flash and Java at DVD Forum. All three of us made parallel proposals. WayVD received overwhelming support. Even companies such as Apple who usually oppose us in such standards supported us together with many BD companies such as Samsung. Indeed, Java only received two votes if my memory is correct. And one was from Sun itself (represented by Bill Sheppard who posts here under an alias), the other from a small company. Flash was dismissed as being too expensive and Macromedia too disorganized in their presentation.
Post #324: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=697036&page=11&pp=30&highlight=identity

And here is Talk's response, in which he confirms that his first name is in fact Bill, but refuses to disclose his last name or employer. XD Gotta love Talk! hehe :)

Anyways, here is the quote, and it's post #362 on this page:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8019222&highlight=identity#post8019222
First of all, Amir is speculating as to whether I am "Bill Sheppard". While it has been established that my name is Bill, I have not confirmed my full name nor employer. Further, there are at least two "Bill's" I'm aware of at Sun who have been active in both HD-DVD and BDA camps. I have asked Amir to respect the rules of this forum and, at a minimum, identify his claim as to my identity as opinion, not fact. The more diplomatic action would be for him to stop publicly attempting to assign an identity to my posts beyond that which I choose to share.

b2bonez

01-30-07, 03:21 AM

No, that is one of the ones I really want. I preordered it the first day it went up. But being a college student, my finances are such that I have to be discriminating with the ultimate number of titles I buy each month, combo or not. But checking my collection, 5 of my 39 HD-DVDs are combo disks. Four others are imports, so since about a quarter of my HD-DVDs I payed a premium for I guess you could say I'm one of the people who bought into the format expecting to pay more then I did with dvds.

And while I'm flattered that you'd take the time to check up on my past posts on the subject, I'm not really sure what your point is. Every time I've checked either of the two HD-DVD/BD ranking sites, the HD-DVD version of The Departed has had a higher rank then the BD version even though it is more expensive and doesn't have the advantage of sporting a superior audio track, which just reinforces my point that the outcry against combos on this forum is overblown on this forum itself and amounts to piddly squat in the real world.

Well you have proven my point by your own admission. If you really want the title you will buy it, even though you are paying more for something you really don't want. That's the outcry. Studios could deliver the product at less cost, but they choose not listen to the customer, but to serve some form of "marketing strategy" at the customers expense.

Plus it also proves in the "real world" all the boasting of HD-DVD discs being cheap to make doesn't amount to a hill of beans now does it ?? That HD-DVD myth is now dead too.

b2b

What'sHD

01-30-07, 03:33 AM

To me, anyone who claims that higher specs are the sole factors that make better formats does belong to the category of high def lover, but is narrowly focused on technical factors and is ignoring corporate politics, economics, consumer pricing and market adoption factors and price/performance issues .

If we take the above points one by one:

1. Corporate politics
Sony is not going to HD ever as long as PS3 is selling. Fox is not either, given their involvment. I dont the mouse will either. The CE corps are more interested in the margins that BD provides than HD.

2. Economics
This point is only relevant in as far as it affects the price consumers have to pay. So, pls refer 3 below.

3. Consumer pricing
Sony is subsidizing BD discs and the entry-point via the PS3. Economics work just fine for BD buyers, if they have no preconcieved hatred of consoles. We are talking about mass market here, not AV-philes. Before this war started, I was part of J6P wrt high def. My 360 + add-on is a far less appealing solution than the PS3 but still well worth it. I think people over-estimate the resistance to PS3 as player.

4. Market adoption factors
PS3 by end of 2008 should pass 20M installed base. I dont think the HD players will come to half that, with or without chinese players (shudder) and I shudder not as a videophile but as a tech buyer.

5. Price/performance
I think its a wash for now, again if no issue with using PS3.

I think you forgot an important factor, which is the price/available content ratio.

If a format can do all the other can do at least cost and at a higher level of sustained PQ and AQ then it can be superior.
Sustained PQ and AQ has nothing to do with format but with the studios. You know that dude. The track record at PQ/AQ of releases in either format does not indicate its superiority/inferiority. Its a bit like putting a crappy driver in a porsche and then saying, oh look, that 1.5 liter volvo (with schumacher at the wheel) makes for a faster race-car.

Misleading at best. If anyone follows such advice and buys the volvo, its his loss.

P.S. I should add, parenthetically, that if the volvo team had not put good money/lots of effort to get schumi, they would have had a snowball's chance in hell. So, well done, Universal and MS for creating great looking initial titles, I mean volvo team for getting hold of schumi.

Capek

01-30-07, 04:00 AM

Well you have proven my point by your own admission. If you really want the title you will buy it, even though you are paying more for something you really don't want. That's the outcry. Studios could deliver the product at less cost, but they choose not listen to the customer, but to serve some form of "marketing strategy" at the customers expense.
No, the point being made is that categorizing it as an "outcry" is wrong, given the sales data from Rentrak’s Retail Essentials and amazon. And I never said I would buy more combos if they were cheaper, nor that I feel like I'm "paying more for something I don't really want". The fact that you would even take that out of thin air from my post proves that you are looking at the matter through your own bias. I'm actually part of the crowd that sees value in the SD side, considering that my HD viewing is contained to one dedicated room, and I have no plans to buy another HD-DVD player for my bed room, so the SD side will get use if, say I want to watch on of the movies late at nite, or cuddling in bed with my gf. What I did in fact say is that I have no problem paying a premium for disk I want. Sure, I've bought some HD-DVDs of movies I have no interest in simply out of boredom, which is something I'd have a harder time doing if they were ~$7 more expensive. But if I'm excited about a movie/release, $7 is nothing. I'll buy the combo to satiate my excitement. Personally, I've gotten so much enjoyment out of HD-DVD, and am so appreciative of the consistent level of quality that I'm able to enjoy in my own home, that I couldn't get annoyed at studios for charging a couple extra bucks for combo disks, even if I didn't like them. I mean, if price was all that mattered to me, I'd stick to fulfilling my entertainment needs by checking out whatever VHS tapes my local library happens to stock. Like I've said, I didn't buy into a HD optical movie format because I expected it to be cheaper then DVDs.

Plus it also proves in the "real world" all the boasting of HD-DVD discs being cheap to make doesn't amount to a hill of beans now does it ?? That HD-DVD myth is now dead too.

b2b
Go to your local Best Buy and compare the number of BD's that are priced $29.99 and over to the number of HD-DVDs that are priced above $24.99. If you honestly do that, and if my local BB is anything to judge by, you'll report back here and take back this statement, and not make it again. :)

plazman

01-30-07, 04:21 AM

Kosty

01-30-07, 04:23 AM

2. Economics
This point is only relevant in as far as it affects the price consumers have to pay. So, pls refer 3 below. Nope higher cost for authoring mastering and replication and cost of goods and the margin on hardware players affect the profit a new release or device can make. Lower costs for studios and CE makers tend not only to drive consumer prices down to commodity pricing and lead to faster adoption rates but also they lead to more positive corporate decisions to release title that may be smaller sellers and still be profitable.

Kosty

01-30-07, 04:26 AM

4. Market adoption factors
PS3 by end of 2008 should pass 20M installed base. I dont think the HD players will come to half that, with or without chinese players (shudder) and I shudder not as a videophile but as a tech buyer I think thats on the very high side of analyst expectation snow for the PS3. Your anti Chinese is unfounded and emotional. A lot of what you probably own was assembled in mainland China. If they can make commodidty DVD players, they can make commodity HD DVD players.

Sean_O

01-30-07, 05:30 AM

PS3 by end of 2008 should pass 20M installed base.

I also doubt very much that the PS3 will touch those numbers by the end of 08'

They will never be priced lower than the 360. They have yet to prove they have any power advantage (quite the opposite so far) and when people can get the same titles on the 360 which perform at best equally on the PS3, then there is no motivation to spend the extra money.

Blu Ray fans should be paying attention because there is a lesson to be learned from the 360 vs. PS3 scenario playing out right now.

Blu Ray currently touts greater studio support. This was the case with the Playstation brand. Then along came Microsoft and they moved large numbers of hardware which also happened to yield an extremely high software attach rate.

Suddenly, many software publishing companies were bringing their previously exclusive Playstation titles over to the Microsoft platform.

It was the hardware sales numbers and the user’s voracious appetite for software which these companies could not ignore.

There is a similar line being drawn with HD DVD. Right now the majority of movie studio support is still in Sony's hands, but that relationship is teetering toward a tipping point when there will be so much HD DVD hardware sold into market that the studios will no longer be able to justify exclusivity to Blu Ray. It is also of note that HD DVD owners seem to buy a ton of software.

As with the 360 and PS3 paradox, it is the lower price of HD DVD coupled with real world performance that is equal (if not better as some examples have shown) to the more expensive Blu Ray that will continue to push buyers toward the HD DVD platform.

This will force studio neutrality and keep Sony from winning the war as HD DVD hardware prices continue to fall and sell to increasing numbers of people.

It’s a stalemate at best for Sony, until single SKU HD DVD / DVD combo discs arrive, and then the door will have shut on Blu Ray as a viable successor to DVD.

What'sHD

01-30-07, 08:31 AM

I think thats on the very high side of analyst expectation snow for the PS3. Your anti Chinese is unfounded and emotional. A lot of what you probably own was assembled in mainland China. If they can make commodidty DVD players, they can make commodity HD DVD players.
I sense a bet coming.

Lets bet on it Kosty. My claim: 20M PS3s worldwide by end of 2008 :)

P.S. It reminds me of a bet I have with an anti-apple type that apple will sell more than 1M iPhones in 2007. Walkover I think.

What'sHD

01-30-07, 08:37 AM

Nope higher cost for authoring mastering and replication and cost of goods and the margin on hardware players affect the profit a new release or device can make. Lower costs for studios and CE makers tend not only to drive consumer prices down to commodity pricing and lead to faster adoption rates but also they lead to more positive corporate decisions to release title that may be smaller sellers and still be profitable.
1. BD players have rather healthy margins, as everyone likes to point out.

2. Studios already have same costs for BD as for HD-dvd.

You know what drives faster adoption rates? PS3 :)

What'sHD

01-30-07, 08:38 AM

rdjam

01-30-07, 09:36 AM

Rdjam, you know I agree with a lot of what you post, but sometimes you're like the crazy uncle in the attic. A little less testosterone please?

Watch a HD DVD movie and relax a bit. It'll get your blood pressure down. ;)
There - I feel much better now :D

rdjam

01-30-07, 09:40 AM

Perhaps it is not Rude if it comes from rdjam.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9274850&&#post9274850
Heh :p Thanks for reminding with that post that PeterTHX, a BDA insider, tried to say that 1080i only gave you a 1 megapixel picture instead of two :p

scaesare

01-30-07, 09:45 AM

There are only two syntax differences for VC-1 between BD and HD-DVD. Telecine flags and IMODE restrictions in BD.

In BD, the bitstream cannot switch between raw IMODE and other modes. You either use raw all the time or never. This syntax element is too complex to "fix up" with a utility after the stream is coded.

That leaves telecine flags. Since the encoder is coding 24p source, it would not normally insert telecine flags. These flags can be added later with a utility to make the bitstream HD-DVD compliant (60i).

Ron

I believe there are GOP/frame differences as well. Are these considered something other than syntax?

Issac Hunt

01-30-07, 09:54 AM

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 10:08 AM

But thats from a site that has a sales volume far less than Amazon's in a month that has relatively slow sales post holiday.

Blu-ray sales have obviously improved but the sustainment and real volume of them is still an issue.

Why does that matter, unless you're arguing that DVD Empire is an anomoly?

It won't be the same results for every retailer, but do you have any reason to believe it represents unusual data?

What is the difference in sales on Amazon when the average top 10 has a gap of 250-300 ranking levels (~500 to ~800)? People were claiming a 5:1 advantage for HD DVD when things were reversed.

But I agree, it means nothing unless it can be sustained.

Gary

Kosty

01-30-07, 10:18 AM

Why does that matter, unless you're arguing that DVD Empire is an anomoly?

It won't be the same results for every retailer, but do you have any reason to believe it represents unusual data?

What is the difference in sales on Amazon when the average top 10 has a gap of 250-300 ranking levels (~500 to ~800)? People were claiming a 5:1 advantage for HD DVD when things were reversed.

But I agree, it means nothing unless it can be sustained.

Gary I am saying that DVD empire is probably showing an accurate trend but its smaller volume than Amazon will tend to be more volatile or exagerate the results and may more easily be distorted by other external factors.

Sustainment is key to these trends.

Some immediate Amazon links for online sales. Books and DVDs are a good portion of their business asnd share the same methodology for sales rank figures.

I'll try to look for more specific public data on DVD sales online market share. But Amazon is number 1 there.

http://www.dmnews.com/cms/lib/7186.jpg

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/barnako/2006/12/netonly_sellers.html

http://www.foreseeresults.com/

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 11:24 AM

Another take on the Sony financials:

Sony's numbers add up (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6164947.html?tag=latestnews;title;1)

Things may not be as bad as previously thought for Sony Computer Entertainment. Yesterday, a survey of five analysts by financial news service Bloomberg predicted that the company could be reporting a 50 percent drop in profits today. However, according to Sony's consolidated financial results for the third quarter of 2006, profits were only down 5.3 percent, and stood at 159.9 billion yen (approx $1.3 billion), compared to 168.9 billion yen ($1.4 billion) in the same period last year.

The Tokyo-based corporation did report a loss of 54.2 billion yen ($455 million) in its game division for Q3 2006, compared to a profit of 67.8 billion yen ($556 million) recorded in the previous year's third quarter. This was mainly due to selling the PlayStation 3 at "strategic price points"--console hardware units are often sold at an initial loss for the manufacturing company, with the money recouped from strong games sales.

So, unless you figure shareholders will demand Sony shut down the Playstation franchise, things aren't all that bleak.

Incidently, Sony's fiscal Q3 2006 is calendar Q4 (Oct - Dec) 2006, so those 2 million shipped have already been booked.

Gary

b2bonez

01-30-07, 12:25 PM

Kosty: "Your anti Chinese is unfounded and emotional. A lot of what you probably own was assembled in mainland China. If they can make commodidty DVD players, they can make commodity HD DVD players."

Let's not get into describing each others' emotional states :)

I know about the china-dominance. I shuddered (and shudder) at the thought of owning a high def player from shinco or some such company.

To me, high def is the holy grail of my Av experience. I genuinely do not need 2160P. 1080P will do me fine.

So, the thought of owning a shinco for high def is.. words fail me.

Just MO though.

Just because something is made in China doesn't automatically mean it is junk. There are lots of examples of very high quality products being sourced from there. But China is also the source of almost every junky piece of electronics that is being sold today too. Without a well known brand name, the "Made in China" is almost a "warning label" for a lot of stuff. ;)

The biggest issue will be one of support if the device needs a FW update or some kind of service. All of those support functions are funded from the sales price and for $199 dollar players there just isn't a lot of dollars to work with. Most of the time they will either work right and if they don't, your only safeguard is to buy them from a retailer with a good returns policy so you can get your money back and let the store deal with the problems.

b2b

jdg345

01-30-07, 12:28 PM

Actually it has little to do with BD-J. What it has to do with is a secondary video decoder which was required on HD DVD day one but will not be required on Blu-ray players until June of this year. Of course many that mention this tend to forget to note that the secondary video decoder required for Blu-ray has to be capable of decoding bit rates far higher than on HD DVD.

Yah ... but ... since those players are due to be out June 2007 ... wouldn't this be a wonderful opportunity to display the flagship features and content? Players come out in June, and so does Media that can take advantage of their new features -- with more media to follow in the coming months. That would be a huge selling point for the hardware, no? :confused:

That's what has me confused ... I would have suspected they'd take the opportunity to push the new interactivity and secondary video support. :(

jdg345

01-30-07, 12:34 PM

You mean "B..l?"

I thought that all industry insiders were supposed to list their employers per requests from others outside the industry...Oh wait, maybe it was just Amir they wanted to list his company affiliatiation. In his posts, Amir does, Talk doesn't, and I would really like to know the company he works for...Sun maybe?

Play it fair guys. If your company has a stake in this format war at least let us know which company you work for? Not hard, and it would be honest.

They covered this a bunch already though ... Talk has provided the mods with sufficient information to declare insider status, though he only posts his opinion and not that of his employer. He has decided to keep his company affiliation private for the time being. If that's good enough for the mods, that should be good enough for us I guess. I'm more concerned with the insiders who don't list themselves as such [at all] ...

WriteSimple

01-30-07, 12:36 PM

Just because something is made in China doesn't automatically mean it is junk. I agree. OEMs do have factories there. And I'm sure that Chinese consumers would demand a great deal of durability for "mainland" products, even though it's affordable (not cheap) to them.

For HD-DVD fanatics who insists that the war will be decided by US$299 or lower Chinese-made no-brand HD-DVD players, I say "Go with your conviction!".

Don't buy or upgrade to another Toshiba HD-DVD player or the X-Box 360 add-on. Just live with what you've got for now. Tell all of your relatives, co-workers or strangers in a mall that they should wait for those US$299 Chinese-made no-brand HD-DVD players to come out. Under no circumstances should they get one of the Toshibas used, or open-boxed or off e-Bay. Tell them EXACTLY THAT!

fuad

jdg345

01-30-07, 12:46 PM

amazon has ranking that allows and keeps preorders and that is short. A real buy does not coun't as much as a fake one because it drops off the books fast. The time period is also too slow and one title being bough can make one title jump by a lot in a minute. Like Plazmaman pointed out for available titles at around 500 two three titles more or less can make several hundred ranking difference. At the level titles were selling at the time a hand full of titles more or less sold on one format would make a difference of several thousend in the ranking (what I always maintained and why I was saying that those numbers were meaningless because they made an extremely small difference look like a lot)

On the other hand here we have a real relative number out of all the disks sold for the week roughly 34.54% were HD DVDs and 65.46% were BDs that means BD was roughly 2:1 HD DVD sales and growing

DVDEmpire also allows for pre-order sales ... I can buy them now ... :confused:

jdg345

01-30-07, 12:56 PM

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 12:57 PM

911lad

01-30-07, 12:59 PM

The most popular video game items on Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/videogames/ref=pd_ts_h/103-0264706-9795001)

As of this post:

#1 - World Of Warcraft Expansion: Burning Crusade ($39.99)
#2 - Sony PlayStation 3 (60GB) ($599.99)

Gary

Thought the PS3 didnt sell to well in NA :rolleyes:

jdg345

01-30-07, 01:09 PM

Hmm...

Does that mean you are holding off on "The Departed" combo ?? It's $27.95 on Amazon and ranked around 70-80. The Blu-Ray edition is ranked 70-80 too, but has the added bonus of being $4 dollars less ($23.95). ;)

b2b

I can't speak for him, but to me, I like at is like this ... for $4 more than what BR costs me, I can get the DVD Copy too so I can watch it on other players and lend it to friends, watch in the car, etc. The alternative is to buy the BR Copy for $23.95 and then the DVD for $18 ... that's ... $41.95 as compared to $27.95.

*shrug*

For already-owned items, I understand some of the gripe ... but for new stuff not already part of a library, it makes more sense to me, personally, to buy the Combo. And, like I mentioned, I've picked up my combos for < $23.95 shipping and tax included ... so that's a deal for sure. :p

darinp2

01-30-07, 01:23 PM

DigitalfreakNYC

01-30-07, 01:34 PM

Are you predicting that Blu-ray will lead by 10-15% in November of this year, or are you using what you believe the gap is today (less than 3 months after the launch of the PS3) and referring to subsidizing millions of consoles over the last year? We aren't even that close to a year from the launch of HD DVD yet, let alone Blu-ray.

--Darin

Yes we are. the 1 year mark will be the very beginning of April for HD DVD.

darinp2

01-30-07, 01:40 PM

Yes we are. the 1 year mark will be the very beginning of April for HD DVD.I believe it will be about April 13th in the US. You can consider about 2.5 months away to be close if you want to, but I'll stick to my, "We aren't even that close to a year ...". If we were talking about Japan, then it looks like the lead for Blu-ray is a lot more than 10-15%.

--Darin

2Channel

01-30-07, 01:45 PM

I'd say the cost of competing with HD DVD is too high for BD to be sustainable. IMHO. Sonys is subsidizing millions of consoles and millions of disks to be able to claim after 1 year they have an appox. 10 - 15% market share lead. Once, the software subsidies are lifted, what impact will it have on margins?

I am quite certain the margin for movies on HD DVD is much higher than BD. If not, why would Sony be subsidizing BD disk replication for the major studios?

You can't run a business by giving away hardware and software below cost. It's not possible and hence why the BDA is desperate for a quick victory. PS3 selling well is not sufficient for survival, non subsidized software sales is the key....

Studios right now are simply enjoying the free lunch from Sony and all they have to do is say how great BD is. FWIW, even the BD name and logo are owned by Sony. Once the free lunch stops, all bets are off....let's see what happens.

That really is one of the big questions in this format war. How long can Sony go subsidizing both players and media. As you said, this is why Sony badly needs a knock out punch, but it's prooving elusive. HD-DVD has made life very uncomfortable for them in that it has forced Sony to subsidize more heavily than they would have without the competition.

I would expect Sony to keep up the disc subsidies through the end of this year. Beyond that I'm not sure. At some point senior managament is going to feel the pressure to cut their losses.

Dixie Ruptin

01-30-07, 02:16 PM

you guys sure do hold on to your misinformation. sony isnt subsidizing discs. go look. on the internet. you can order blu-ray production discs for almost the same price as hd-dvd at many independent disc pressers. these studios that are supporting blu-ray are making money money money off every disc sold, as are all the patent owners of blu-ray, including sony.

as for ps3 being subsidized, well, so are all the toshiba players. how does this hurt toshiba less, to sell all of their hardware at a total loss? at least sony can make money elsewhere, just like microsoft is. microsoft is taking a bath on their video game division even though they're having some success finally. they're bleeding money on the xbox, but making it up with their PC software division. sony is still posting profit this last quarter even with the ps3 launch factored in. how are toshiba's profits this quarter?

b2bonez

01-30-07, 02:26 PM

That really is one of the big questions in this format war. How long can Sony go subsidizing both players and media. As you said, this is why Sony badly needs a knock out punch, but it's prooving elusive. HD-DVD has made life very uncomfortable for them in that it has forced Sony to subsidize more heavily than they would have without the competition.

I would expect Sony to keep up the disc subsidies through the end of this year. Beyond that I'm not sure. At some point senior managament is going to feel the pressure to cut their losses.

Isn't it about time to let go of the rumors ?? It's amazing how the HD-DVD side starts a rumor, repeats it as fact over and over and then after the rumor is dispelled, they just can let go of it. :rolleyes:
I am not aware of any subsidies being paid, but I did hear the same rumors about this several years ago. It does not make much sense that any subsidies could be in place because repication services are being provided by at least 5 different companies and common sense would indicate that they would not all agree to such a subsidy, particular those that support both formats.

So just who is subsidizing the 4 other companies BD production ??

b2b

Maxpower1987

01-30-07, 02:30 PM

That really is one of the big questions in this format war. How long can Sony go subsidizing both players and media. As you said, this is why Sony badly needs a knock out punch, but it's prooving elusive. HD-DVD has made life very uncomfortable for them in that it has forced Sony to subsidize more heavily than they would have without the competition.

I would expect Sony to keep up the disc subsidies through the end of this year. Beyond that I'm not sure. At some point senior managament is going to feel the pressure to cut their losses.

You continually say Sony are in trouble, but today's financial statements tell a different story, $1.3bn profit this year is not bad at all, 2007 should be even higher as they continue to drive down the cost of the PS3 (oh yeah, they will get cheaper to produce, or did you think that PS3s were going to be expensive forever). The previously troubled electronics division is now doing very well, due in-part to the popularity of Bravia TVs, and the media parts (SPE/Sony BMG) just keep printing money for Sony. Sony Ericsson made over $1bn in profit, 50% of which will go to Sony.

So tell me, how are Sony in trouble when one division (SCE) is making a loss, and all of the others make a profit?

2Channel

01-30-07, 02:31 PM

Let sony eat the losses on disc and PS3. I am thankful for their risk-taking and innovation for BD (BD50, CELL etc.). Why are you suddenly worried about sony's losses? Enjoy the high def instead of settling.. As long as sony is equalizing the costs of BD vs HD, the studios do not see it as a strike (duh).

Universal wouldn't have (seen it as a strike) either if they had used BD. Not too late though. I reckon I will see JPs on my PS3 by 2008.

I am talking solely from the perspective of a high def lover who wants the best-possible technical format to win. To me, anyone who claims lower specs make for better formats does not belong to the category of high def lover.

You have to ask yourself what's important to you. Is it the movie, the PQ, or the spec sheets? For me it's the movies first, the PQ second and specs third. I'll buy a great movie that looks bad, and I won't buy a bad movie that looks good. If I'm on the fence on a title and it really does deliver fantastic picture quality, that will put me over the top on buying it.

Similarly when I picked formats, content came first. I know all the BD supporters will quote the stats on studios and dvd sales, etc. I go by what's available, what's announced and what I like. For me there's simply more HD-DVD exclusive material that I want than BD exclusive material.

PQ is second in importance, and HD-DVD scores there for me as well. When I see reviewers saying that BD is delivering consistently better PQ than HD-DVD, I'll take notice. I'm not holding my breath on that because I believe that 25-30GB discs with modern codecs have enough capacity that the challenge of getting better PQ moves to weaker links in the chain (if you want to stay on mpeg2 then 50GB discs with higher bandwidth become more important). Please read the highdefdigest review of Chicago PQ=4/5 BD-50/AVC. There are titles on BD-25 and HD-DVD that have scored higher. It's not the format limitations holding us back.

That brings us to specs. If I was shopping for a hard drive I'd paying a lot of attention to disc size and transfer rate. But even with hard drives, there are a number of other factors I would take into consideration. Specs are great, but only to the extent that they serve to get the job done.

If you are married to the idea of specs being your primary deciding factor, then let me point something out. Looking at the BD reviews on highdefdigest.com we see today there are 129 movies. 104 of those movies are on BD-25 while 25 of them are on BD-50. Are you buying BD-25 titles? If so why? If not, are you satisfied with the movie selection you have available to you?

jdg345

01-30-07, 02:37 PM

The most popular video game items on Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/videogames/ref=pd_ts_h/103-0264706-9795001)

As of this post:

#1 - World Of Warcraft Expansion: Burning Crusade ($39.99)
#2 - Sony PlayStation 3 (60GB) ($599.99)

Gary

I'm surprised the Wii isn't in the Top 3 ... :confused:

But ... it shows the PS3 in Stock ... I guess b2b can buy one now. :p

darinp2

01-30-07, 02:41 PM

I'm surprised the Wii isn't in the Top 3 ... :confused:Things generally drop in the rankings when they can't be purchased there. If the Wii was in stock it probably would be #1. Last time the 60GB PS3 came into stock it went to #1 and then sold out. This time it is at #1, but still in stock. The remote control for the PS3 is now at #10.

--Darin

yoyoniner

01-30-07, 02:44 PM

Blu-ray has already won, and deep down we all know it.

Blu-ray is stomping HD-DVD in sales and movies and STILL has all the CE and studio support advantage it has enjoyed since the beginning. Blu-ray is winning in absolutely everything and has no signs of slowing down. And it is winning with everything that counts. Capacity, bandwidth, number of movies, number of studios, numbers of players to choose from, copy protection with new methods yet to be implemented while HD-DVD is stuck, disc reliability with owners of both formats reporting Blu-ray is much more reliable, Blu-ray discs are on average CHEAPER because of no combos, and now Blu-ray has a very clear lead in SALES. I mean what else left is there? We've been hearing for months how "studios will just follow the money" but notice you don't hear that much anymore now that Blu-ray has the sales lead.

Hindsight is 20-20. Just look how many rumor mongers don't post anymore on here and don't infiltrate every thread. There is a REASON. There is nothing really left to argue over or spread rumors about. The "war" arguments now a days have become just sad and not interesting, which is why I don't post much anymore which many on here on the HD-DVD side I'm sure love. But I know deep down that they are laughing a little bit inside when the pro-HD-DVD arguments have turned to pornography and Shinco players with no price or release dates. It was fun when we didn't know what the future held as much and the arguments were heated, but now how is anyone supposed to take HD-DVD seriously?

It's amazing how BD rose up, slowly but surely, and proved all of it's critics wrong though.

Let's look back...

Remember BD-50's were just science fiction and would never come out? BD-50's were "inherently flawed." Then they did come out.

Then BD-50's were too expensive and wouldn't be common. They were inherently flawed to always be expensive and rare and "not needed." Why? Because the side arguing didn't have the capacity. Then they became more common.

Then MPEG-2 and BD-25 could not reproduce great quality--it was inherently flawed. Then Tears of the Sun came out. Then MI:III. Then...

Then BD players were all "twice the price of HD-DVD" because they were "all" $1000. And none of these people ever insinuated that these prices would go down--this was an inherent flaw to BD. Then the Sammy dropped to $599 on Amazon and the $499 PS3 was released.

Then the Xbox 360 add-on would "neutralize" the PS3. It did not.

Then MS would announce an HD-DVD drive "built in" to neutralize the PS3. Then MS denied that this was ever in the plans.

Then Triple Layer discs (which many recall were announced LAST year) were going to "neutralize the BD capacity advantage." But they never saw the light of day, and are STILL vaporware.

Then Blu-ray's were "vulnerable" to scratches, much moreso than HD-DVD, and they were inherently flawed for rental companies. But then people on here began to realise that it is HD-DVD that is much more vulnerable to scratches and Blu-ray discs were MUCH more reliable. A poll on here found only 3.7% of Blu-ray owners had a problem playing a rental while 25% of HD-DVD owners did. And guys like Gary and Fettastic, who were once hardcore HD-DVD fans who blasted Blu-ray every chance they got last summer, admitted that Blu-ray discs are much more reliable to own and much more resistant to scratches than HD-DVD's. And now these guys are Blu-ray fans! So that argument went away too.

Then the PS3 was released and the "poor sales" proved it would have no effect on Blu-ray. Then it went on to outsell the 360 comparatively at it's launch and now Blu-ray is clearly ahead in sales.

Since at this time of the PS3 launch the HD-DVD fan still had sales arguments on their side, then the arguments were that "studios would follow the money" so it isn't an idiotic decision to support a format that has only 3 major studios releasing content on it, because it was "just a matter of time" before studios would "see the light." Never happened. Still only 3 major studios releasing content on a format that is still basically just Toshiba and an optional video game console add-on, with still only one exclusive studio who seems uninterested in fully supporting the format with "100" mystery titles to be release sometime this year, 90% of which will be on combo! THAT is HD-DVD. And about those sales arguments... well we all realize how that is turning out right now.

After the PS3 arguments failed the goalposts were then switched to CES. CES was going to be big for HD-DVD with new studios going neutral for them and new big name CE companies coming on board. They knew they needed some major CE support and at least one studio going neutral, and this hope was so great that there were literally posters PROMISING people that at least one Blu-ray studio would go neutral at CES. Didn't happen. And as far as CE all they got was some junk names like Shinco not one of them has ever owned, and a bunch of "mystery movies" with no release dates. And don't forget about that giant lump of coal from Universal. So now the hope has shifted to cheap porn and Chinese junk name players for a serious forum like AVS--and, in case you forgot, these players don't have any announced prices or release dates, just like most of those mystery movies.

---

These arguments all turned out to be wrong. But at least they were somewhat interesting because we were all waiting with baited breath to see how the PS3 would effect sales and what would happen at CES.

And now things are much clearer. Now that it has turned out that things are not better for HD-DVD but FAR FAR WORSE then when this arguments were being made, with all the problems they had before but now they have to contend with a better selling Blu-ray who has more movies coming out every week in February than HD-DVD has for the entire month, and you have a situation where there is no real reason to take HD-DVD seriously and get into arguments anymore on here regarding a "war" because there is no war--we should all admit that, deep down, we all know that Blu-ray has won. It has won with capacity, bandwidth, scratch resistance and reliability for our archives, studios, player choices, more MOVIES, and now clearly BETTER SALES.

There is no war anymore. And deep down we all know it and we should move on and just get Universal to go neutral so we can come together and focus on the MOVIES ONLY, which is why we are all, deep down, in this together.

-

Jeff Lampert

01-30-07, 02:47 PM

I gotta get a BIIIGGGGG page of popcorn for this one.

Forceflow

01-30-07, 02:47 PM

It was fun when we didn't know what the future held as much and the arguments were heated, but now how is anyone supposed to take HD-DVD seriously?

I know you get your jollies off of "arguing" with people about the format war but some of us enjoy watching HD movies. :rolleyes:

Maybe that's why there's been less arguing...there's more to watch.

2Channel

01-30-07, 02:49 PM

You continually say Sony are in trouble, but today's financial statements tell a different story, $1.3bn profit this year is not bad at all, 2007 should be even higher as they continue to drive down the cost of the PS3 (oh yeah, they will get cheaper to produce, or did you think that PS3s were going to be expensive forever). The previously troubled electronics division is now doing very well, due in-part to the popularity of Bravia TVs, and the media parts (SPE/Sony BMG) just keep printing money for Sony. Sony Ericsson made over $1bn in profit, 50% of which will go to Sony.

So tell me, how are Sony in trouble when one division (SCE) is making a loss, and all of the others make a profit?

I didn't say Sony was in trouble. As you point out while SCE is hemorrhaging cash, the other divisions in Sony are doing very well. Sony also very wisely last year sold off a good chunk of the MGM catalog to Fox for $5Billion.

That aside, any large company has limits to how much loss they will allow any one division to suffer. SCE won't sink Sony, because Sony won't let them sink the company. So while they can subsidize for an extended period, at some point that investment needs to start paying returns and pulling its weight.

I speculated (personal opinion) that they would continue to do so through the end of this year. Beyond that, I'm not sure what their pain threshold is.

jmpage2

01-30-07, 02:51 PM

Blu Ray has "won" yet the Toshiba HDXA1 HD-DVD player just received the highly coveted Sound and Vision prize for best CE product of 2006.

The war is not over. Why should HD-DVD fans roll over and die when the Blu-Ray fans did not?

Blu-Ray still does not have an affordable option for those not wanting to stuff a game console with no remote integration into their home theater. Meanwhile $399 HDA2s are flying off of the shelves.

Where is the top notch upconverting of our large SD-DVD libraries? Upscaling of the current crop of BR players is mediocre, yet the Toshiba decks have upsampling on par with high end outboard scalers. Oh ya, PS3 doesn't scale at all and we don't know if it ever will.

And as far as software sales go, BR has pulled ahead but it is not trouncing HD-DVD. There's very little new HD-DVD content right now. If 10-12 A list titles from Warner or Universal released tomorrow you'd see some of that pent up demand for new HD-DVD material.

We also don't know how much of the current BR surge is going to diminish after the "newness" wears off for PS3 owners. Remember that UMD had great sales figures for the first six months it was out too, where is UMD now?

I'm not going to address your other arguments other than to say that while most here simply want the format that offers the best bang for the buck to win (and would switch sides if and when necessary), you are simply out to boost your own ego and be proven "right" in all of this.

Alan Gordon

01-30-07, 02:52 PM

Blu-ray is stomping HD-DVD in sales and movies

Blu-Ray has 25 titles to be released in February according to Highdefdigest. HD DVD has seven. Blu-Ray has this kind of ratio for several months now... hence Blu-Ray's high sales compared to HD DVD. Flooding the market with releases is definately a boon to Blu-Ray...

However, sales numbers on each neutral title are much more interesting...

~Alan

Dixie Ruptin

01-30-07, 02:53 PM

jmpage2

01-30-07, 02:57 PM

i wouldnt worry about sony. i would worry about HD-DVD's only main hardware manufacturer, Toshiba, hemorrhaging money on every HD-DVD player it sells. that can't be good for business.

Give me a break. Toshiba is estimated to lose between $100-$200 per player sold and the Xbox add-on is making money for Microsoft. Toshiba loss prices were also calculated on the Japanese produced HDA1. We have no idea if they are even taking a loss on the Chinese produced HDA2.

Sony is selling far more PS3s and losing an estimated $300 per deck.

If you think Sony somehow can stomach bigger losses than Toshiba I think you fail to realize just how diversified Toshiba is as a company (here's a hint, far more than Sony).

Uh ya, here's one for yo-yo, if HD-DVD is "dead" as you say then why did LG stuff HD-DVD functionality into their BR player?

2Channel

01-30-07, 03:01 PM

Then MPEG-2 and BD-25 could not reproduce great quality--it was inherently flawed. Then Tears of the Sun came out. Then MI:III. Then...

I agree that 25-30GB discs can get the job done very well. So why do we need BD-50? It's a serious question.

Maxpower1987

01-30-07, 03:04 PM

I didn't say Sony was in trouble. As you point out while SCE is hemorrhaging cash, the other divisions in Sony are doing very well. Sony also very wisely last year sold off a good chunk of the MGM catalog to Fox for $5Billion.

That aside, any large company has limits to how much loss they will allow any one division to suffer. SCE won't sink Sony, because Sony won't let them sink the company. So while they can subsidize for an extended period, at some point that investment needs to start paying returns and pulling its weight.

I speculated (personal opinion) that they would continue to do so through the end of this year. Beyond that, I'm not sure what their pain threshold is.

SCE will be fine in a year, the only loss made in that division is on the PS3, yes it is a big loss, but Kaz Hirai has said that by Jan 2008 they expect a 5% margin on the PS3, so that would mean a BoM of about $530-560 compared to the $800-900 that we see now. The PS2 will continue to subsidise losses made on the PS3, while they may not make a lot of money these days, it will contribute a significant amount with game royalties and accessories. The PSP is looking to have a record year, which will help the bottom line of SCE, and remember that they still have not had a price cut on this thing, so they must make a huge margin on each one sold. Tbh I applaud Sony for not taking the easy way out and putting a DVD drive in the PS3, gaming is about cutting edge as much as anything else, and Blu-ray is cutting edge.

IBM has sampled 65nm Cell processors with Sony starting research with NEC on the next 45nm successor, as silicon gets smaller, it gets cheaper. The old EE+GS will be stripped out of the G2 PS3 once they get a proper emulation solution, basically reducing the BoM by another $70-100 (the cost of these are changing the mainboard to accommodate the old processors as well as the silicon itself).

People are not looking far enough into the future, this thing will be around for 6-7 years just like the PS2, and it will make a profit, eventually.

UxiSXRD

01-30-07, 03:10 PM

I agree that 25-30GB discs can get the job done very well. So why do we need BD-50? It's a serious question.

Memory capacity is like RAM and horsepower and resolution. More is NEVER bad. We still haven't seen the 3hour + epics, have we? The longest that is coming to mind is Spartacus on HD-DVD and that was not well received...

What's the old adage? "Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it..."

b2bonez

01-30-07, 03:10 PM

I agree that 25-30GB discs can get the job done very well. So why do we need BD-50? It's a serious question.

Because of this... ;)
Sorry, I have not seen these in production yet. I have seen the master for Starship Troopers though. Sharp, grainy and very tough to encode. Expect a BD50 on that one.

b2b

Sketcha

01-30-07, 03:10 PM

Sony is selling far more PS3s and losing an estimated $300 per deck.

I just like how you said Sony is selling far more PS3s

Uh ya, here's one for yo-yo, if HD-DVD is "dead" as you say then why did LG stuff HD-DVD functionality into their BR player?

They may not have, had they waited to see what the PS3 would do, but I think they wanted to announce at CES, don't you?

Maxpower1987

01-30-07, 03:11 PM

Give me a break. Toshiba is estimated to lose between $100-$200 per player sold and the Xbox add-on is making money for Microsoft. Toshiba loss prices were also calculated on the Japanese produced HDA1. We have no idea if they are even taking a loss on the Chinese produced HDA2.

Sony is selling far more PS3s and losing an estimated $300 per deck.

If you think Sony somehow can stomach bigger losses than Toshiba I think you fail to realize just how diversified Toshiba is as a company (here's a hint, far more than Sony).

Sony are second biggest CE in the world, Toshiba have no media divisions, they do not produce the number one selling TV, they have a similar sized computer departments to Sony, the only reason that they are involved in Cell R&D is that Sony needed another company to shoulder the burden. Sony have cell phones (highly profitable ones at that), Toshiba do not, Toshiba have HDDs, Sony do not. Really it is about the same, but SPE/SonyBMG tip the scales towards Sony slightly as they really do print money atm.

yoyoniner

01-30-07, 03:12 PM

Uh ya, here's one for yo-yo, if HD-DVD is "dead" as you say then why did LG stuff HD-DVD functionality into their BR player?

I didn't say HD-DVD was dead, just that it is clear now that it will be. Blu-ray had a clear lead in CE and studio support (which are BIG leads and also a BIG deal) since it launched. HD-DVD needed at least a piece of that pie to show that it was gaining momentum. At the same time these arguments were happening, HD-DVD had a clear lead in sales, so arguments were interesting because we were waiting for CES.

Now, Blu-ray has a clear lead in absolutely everything, including sales, and we are starting to find out on here that Blu-ray discs are also more reliable for the rental companies and more reliable for us, the movie lovers, to own. There really is nothing left to fight about anymore. I'm starting to believe that the folks who want Blu-ray to fail or HD-DVD to win simply just hate a corporate brand for some reason (Sony).

We need to all focus on getting Universal to come on board and the natural forces of competition to drop player prices so we can just focus on all of the movies with no confusion, and luckily that format would have the superior technical specs. That is about all I will say about this.

Sketcha

01-30-07, 03:13 PM

I agree that 25-30GB discs can get the job done very well. So why do we need BD-50? It's a serious question.

Doesn't it depend on the particular film; length, uncompressed audio, etc.?

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 03:15 PM

I think it would be pretty amusing if the main thing that has gotten rdjam to
proclaim:

An HD DVD VC1 encode was produced along the way to producing a Bluray encode

even though he says that my:was an incorrect "quote" is that the original encode will have 60i telecine flags that need to be taken out.

Note: dr1394 and others have pointed out that VC-1 is actually slightly more flexible under HD DVD with respect to B-frames.

What I find a little amusing is that while the BD crowd repeatedly points out how Warner isn't encoding for the maximum benefit of BD, the HD DVD fans have failed to realize that the official VC-1 encoder is now (at least for Warner use) encoding for the benefit of BD porting rather than maximum HD DVD benefit.

Presumably slightly more bandwidth can be saved for HD DVD by using B-frames to their full advantage? Has a DTHD offering or two been lost due to this?

Both sides seem to be getting shortchanged by Warner. Perhaps the HD DVD fans can join us in insisting each format receive the best effort.

Gary

Alan Gordon

01-30-07, 03:17 PM

I'm starting to believe that the folks who want Blu-ray to fail or HD-DVD to win simply just hate a corporate brand for some reason (Sony).

Actually, I rather like Sony products, and other than the fact that I would have lost some money after buying an HD-A2, I have no desire for one to win over the other.

However, I do believe Sony will fail... which is a complete role-reversal from my thinking over the last several years... and CES really cemented my feelings as HD DVD has the momentum going forward whereas Blu-Ray's CES announcements were rather uneventful...

~Alan

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 03:24 PM

I'm surprised the Wii isn't in the Top 3 ... :confused:

But ... it shows the PS3 in Stock ... I guess b2b can buy one now. :p

Hey, PS/3 is now currently #1. :D

That's pretty impressive isn't it? A $600 console that has been out for two months is selling more units that a major $40 piece of software that has been out for two weeks!

I wonder why Nintendo is still having so much trouble getting quantity out? The Wii is an extremely simple device compared to the PS/3.

Gary

jmpage2

01-30-07, 03:24 PM

I just like how you said Sony is selling far more PS3s

Yes, Sony is selling more PS3s, arguably the most anticipated CE product in years than the less well known HD-DVD player. Even then the HD-A2 appears to be selling very, very well, and the Xbox 360 add on is also doing well.

If that makes you giggle in delight then have at it.

Sketcha

01-30-07, 03:27 PM

Yes, Sony is selling more PS3s, arguably the most anticipated CE product in years than the less well known HD-DVD player. Even then the HD-A2 appears to be selling very, very well, and the Xbox 360 add on is also doing well.

If that makes you giggle in delight then have at it.

Well it doesn't quite make me giggle in delight, but I appreciate the license.

b2bonez

01-30-07, 03:27 PM

jmpage2

01-30-07, 03:27 PM

I didn't say HD-DVD was dead, just that it is clear now that it will be. Blu-ray had a clear lead in CE and studio support (which are BIG leads and also a BIG deal) since it launched. HD-DVD needed at least a piece of that pie to show that it was gaining momentum. At the same time these arguments were happening, HD-DVD had a clear lead in sales, so arguments were interesting because we were waiting for CES.

Now, Blu-ray has a clear lead in absolutely everything, including sales, and we are starting to find out on here that Blu-ray discs are also more reliable for the rental companies and more reliable for us, the movie lovers, to own. There really is nothing left to fight about anymore. I'm starting to believe that the folks who want Blu-ray to fail or HD-DVD to win simply just hate a corporate brand for some reason (Sony).

We need to all focus on getting Universal to come on board and the natural forces of competition to drop player prices so we can just focus on all of the movies with no confusion, and luckily that format would have the superior technical specs. That is about all I will say about this.

I don't hate Sony. I have a damn 60" SXRD sitting my living room for Christ's sake!

What I hate is substandard performance. PS3 gaming console makes a poor home theater solution and the performance on the $1000 BR players is a joke compared to what Toshiba can do. Sony is clinging to outdated MPEG2 compression out of ego, when everyone knows that VC1 and H.264 are far better.

BR group can't get their Java working, while HD-DVD has all the cutting edge IME features working today.

I have nothing against Sony or BR. I wanted BR to be a homerun hit, but they have just continued to foul things up. The fact that some PS3 owners are buying movies doesn't mean that HD-DVD is dead.

Maxpower1987

01-30-07, 03:28 PM

and CES really cemented my feelings as HD DVD has the momentum going forward whereas Blu-Ray's CES announcements were rather uneventful...

~Alan

Which CES were you at?!?

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 03:34 PM

PS3 gaming console makes a poor home theater solution

Have you tried it?

I know it may be hard to get your mind around. And it may take a little thinking with respect to ensuring adequate ventilation. But, the PS/3 is an amazing HT device.

You figure all the major A/V mags are Playstation fanboys?

Gary

jdg345

01-30-07, 03:34 PM

Hey, PS/3 is now currently #1. :D

That's pretty impressive isn't it? A $600 console that has been out for two months is selling more units that a major $40 piece of software that has been out for two weeks!

I wonder why Nintendo is still having so much trouble getting quantity out? The Wii is an extremely simple device compared to the PS/3.

Gary

Yah ... it really seems odd ... Didn't WOW sell like 2.38 million copies or something? I doubt Amazon has even seen that many PS3's. I wonder how they weight the rankings?

bkilian

01-30-07, 03:36 PM

Give me a break. Toshiba is estimated to lose between $100-$200 per player sold and the Xbox add-on is making money for Microsoft. Toshiba loss prices were also calculated on the Japanese produced HDA1. We have no idea if they are even taking a loss on the Chinese produced HDA2.

Sony is selling far more PS3s and losing an estimated $300 per deck.Actually, I've never believed those reports about Toshiba losing money on the HD-A1. I've built PC's with better specs than that for less than $500 at consumer prices. Everybody seems to just take iSupply's wild assed guesses at their word, and they really are just guesses, most of the components in the HD-A1 (and the PS3 even) are not for general sale, and are usually obtained through some interesting inter-company deals. (The P4's intel supplied Toshiba, for instance, were, as I understand it, the last stock of a chip they don't make any more, so Toshiba probably got them at a significant discount).

When you include marketing and development costs, I doubt Toshiba made any money on the HD-A1, but I don't think they lost very much money on every sale.

As an aside, I also don't believe Sony is losing $300 on each PS3, for the same reasons. I'd guess the $600 unit is almost break-even (but even then, I'm just guessing :)). Their Japan pricing is probably painful though.

Alan Gordon

01-30-07, 03:37 PM

I wonder why Nintendo is still having so much trouble getting quantity out? The Wii is an extremely simple device compared to the PS/3.

I lucked out in getting a Wii last week. My local Circuit City didn't have them on the shelves, but iTrackr.com told me they had them, so I asked and they gave me one.

As I was purchasing mine, one guy came up to the desk and bought one as well... and employees stated that they only had two left. The person I was with carried the Wii out to the car for me as I went to buy an accessorie said that every body was staring and pointing at her as she was leaving the store. As I was purchasing my accessorie, somebody saw it and told me that she was interested in purchasing one as well, but that she's been unable to find one, so I told her that they had two left, and she said "not anymore"...

After I purchased mine, I've gotten five more families interested in the Wii, and even my grandmother is thinking about getting one. All these families say the PS3 is too high, and they will wait until it goes down in price.

The reason why Nintendo is having so much difficulty getting quantity out is because the demand is SO high.

~Alan

jmpage2

01-30-07, 03:38 PM

Have you tried it?

I know it may be hard to get your mind around. And it may take a little thinking with respect to ensuring adequate ventilation. But, the PS/3 is an amazing HT device.

You figure all the major A/V mags are Playstation fanboys?

Gary

The thing doesn't even upscale SD-DVD for crying out loud. It doesn't have a remote that integrates with 99% of the remote systems used in home theaters. Which apparently is something that PS3 folk can't get their heads around.

Is it good at playing a BR movie? Yes it is, but it takes a lot more than that to "impress" the AV crowd.

If all it took was booting in 10 seconds and playing a BR movie without skipping than it would have been the PS3 and not the HDXA1 that would have won best AV product for 2006.

Alan Gordon

01-30-07, 03:40 PM

Which CES were you at?!?

I wasn't at CES, but all the stories coming out of CES were HD DVD...

Blu-Ray was quiet other than a few prototype players...

~Alan

Kosty

01-30-07, 03:41 PM

Just because something is made in China doesn't automatically mean it is junk. There are lots of examples of very high quality products being sourced from there. But China is also the source of almost every junky piece of electronics that is being sold today too. Without a well known brand name, the "Made in China" is almost a "warning label" for a lot of stuff. ;)

The biggest issue will be one of support if the device needs a FW update or some kind of service. All of those support functions are funded from the sales price and for $199 dollar players there just isn't a lot of dollars to work with. Most of the time they will either work right and if they don't, your only safeguard is to buy them from a retailer with a good returns policy so you can get your money back and let the store deal with the problems.

b2b Thats why Wal-Mart KMart and Target and Costco and Sam's Club can sell a lot of them. Those stores become the brand from a cusstomer risk perspective because of their liberal return policy. Same with Circuit City and Best Buy and their northern cousins. People are more likely to shop on price not brand if they know they can return the item if they don't like it.

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 03:42 PM

Actually, I've never believed those reports about Toshiba losing money on the HD-A1.

For what its worth, neither did I.

However, how about making enough money on each sale to make a dent in the previous AND current R&D?:

HD DVD-ROM + HD DVD-Video
HD DVR-R
Two versions of HD DVD-RW
Three version of combos
TL45
TL51

How does Toshiba get margin or royalties sufficient to recoup all that, let alone get net profitable on HD DVD?

Gary

darinp2

01-30-07, 03:42 PM

Note: dr1394 and others have pointed out that VC-1 is actually slightly more flexible under HD DVD with respect to B-frames.

What I find a little amusing is that while the BD crowd repeatedly points out how Warner isn't encoding for the maximum benefit of BD, the HD DVD fans have failed to realize that the official VC-1 encoder is now (at least for Warner use) encoding for the benefit of BD porting rather than maximum HD DVD benefit.

Presumably slightly more bandwidth can be saved for HD DVD by using B-frames to their full advantage? Has a DTHD offering or two been lost due to this?According to Ben the B-frame thing is for saving some bitrate during low bitrate things. I imagine like small white objects on black backgrounds or sequences with very little movement. I wouldn't assume that the encodes for HD DVD are being held back by this limitation for Blu-ray or that there is enough difference here to affect whether a title got a TrueHD track or not, but it is possible.

The B-frame thing is one more reason that the claims that doing an encode for Blu-ray with VC-1 means getting an HD DVD encode along the way isn't true. I think most people here are smart enough to know that having 60i flags doesn't make an encode an HD DVD encode. Would the compressionists really be so ignorant as to input values to the encoder for HD DVD's limitations instead of Blu-ray's if what they were told to do was encode for Blu-ray? Obviously, they could choose to encode to the lowest common denominator if they want to, but a compressionist wouldn't be very good if they just set all the limits to HD DVD limits when asked to do an encode for Blu-ray, since it is possible that they would get too many B-frames in some sequences and then it wouldn't work for Blu-ray without reencoding those spots.

--Darin

Sketcha

01-30-07, 03:42 PM

Is it good at playing a BR movie? Yes it is, but it takes a lot more than that to "impress" the AV crowd.

Isn't that rather insulting to all of those HD DVD to BD converts that love their PS3s?

Not to mention all the original PS3 fans, but I expect that from you.

rdjam

01-30-07, 03:43 PM

Hey, PS/3 is now currently #1. :D

That's pretty impressive isn't it?

Gary
It's also complete impossible. Every retailer and news story has stated that the Wii is outselling the PS3 by two to one, and even the Xbox has been outselling the PS3.

I don't know what wrong with your query filter, but it sure looks like something may be... ;)

darinp2

01-30-07, 03:45 PM

It's also complete impossible. Every retailer and news story has stated that the Wii is outselling the PS3 by two to one, and even the Xbox has been outselling the PS3.It isn't impossible at all. You just don't comprehend it.

--Darin

rdjam

01-30-07, 03:47 PM

The B-frame thing is one more reason that the claims that doing an encode for Blu-ray with VC-1 means getting an HD DVD encode along the way isn't true. Not beating a dead horse here, or anything? :)

Actually, you must have missed the posts. MS has now released an update to their VC1 encoder that allows a studio to select which format (BD or HD) the encoder outputs to. So a studio no longer has to go through the extra step of converting the HD DVD encode into Bluray. Just thought this would make you happy. ;)

UxiSXRD

01-30-07, 03:47 PM

What I hate is substandard performance. PS3 gaming console makes a poor home theater solution and the performance on the $1000 BR players is a joke compared to what Toshiba can do.

What are you talking about? Even without an HDMI receiver, the PS3 is one of the best home theater solutions around. It's dead silent, and it's speed and performance are without parallel.

The only downsides are the lack of analog outputs, which are hardly a deal breaker, especially at it's price point (not available on the currently available Tosh A2 or the HD-DVD add-on). Lack of upconversion certainly doesn't equate to a poor HD performance.

From my experiences at Magnolia, I don't find the BDP-S1 at all inferior to the Toshiba XA1 or XA2, either, so please elucidate on the superiority of the XA2 over the Panasonic, Sony, or Pioneer BD players...

Sony is clinging to outdated MPEG2 compression out of ego, when everyone knows that VC1 and H.264 are far better.

Eh? I'll put my Kingdom of Heaven, Black Hawk Down, and Crank BD's (all in MPEG2) against any of my VC1 HD-DVD's... Those movies available for direct comparison (MI3, Aeon Flux, Corpse Bride, for example all available on MPEG2 BD and VC1 HD-DVD ) should dispute this, as well.

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 03:48 PM

It's also complete impossible. Every retailer and news story has stated that the Wii is outselling the PS3 by two to one, and even the Xbox has been outselling the PS3.

I don't know what wrong with your query filter, but it sure looks like something may be... ;)

The Wii would need to be in stock at Amazon to keep a ranking (it's only available from "partners").

There is nothing special about the link. It's just an Amazon page. No filter except what Amazon themselve's have applied.

Gary

Ilka

01-30-07, 03:48 PM

It's also complete impossible...

"Denial" is not a river in Egypt :)

b2bonez

01-30-07, 03:50 PM

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 03:52 PM

There's a old saying for that... "It's all over with, except for the cryin' and the shoutin'"

Finger pointin' and class actions? ;)

Gary

Maxpower1987

01-30-07, 03:53 PM

I wasn't at CES, but all the stories coming out of CES were HD DVD...

Blu-Ray was quiet other than a few prototype players...

~Alan

What did HD DVD actually show us, not tell us about. One 1080p player from Tosh. Everything else was spin and future announcements that might never materialise.

What did BD show us, not tell us about. One new player from Samsung, two from Sony, one from Sharp, and a recorder from Hitachi.

That is just the hardware, I think we can all agree about the complete and utter destruction of HD DVD on the software side.

darinp2

01-30-07, 03:54 PM

Not beating a dead horse here, or anything? :)

Actually, you must have missed the posts. MS has now released an update to their VC1 encoder that allows a studio to select which format (BD or HD) the encoder outputs to. So a studio no longer has to go through the extra step of converting the HD DVD encode into Bluray. Just thought this would make you happy. ;)They never had to. 60i flags don't make something an HD DVD encode. There is the file format issue where they had to strip off the 60i flags from what they got, but they never had to have an HD DVD encode. But then you are the same person who claims that my:
I know rdjam was telling people that using VC-1 meant that they would have an HD DVD compliant encode (which wasn't and isn't true), ...was a misrepresentation and then says that they would have to have an HD DVD encode along the way. And claims that "Flightplan" doesn't count because it came after you made the claim of what would have to happen. Seems like you will say just about anything in order to claim that my statement was a misrepresentation of your position, while also claiming that:
Now, not all of you may realize this, but the only way to get a VC1 encode for Bluray is to do a VC1 encode for HD DVD first. THEN, you run a tool provided by Microsoft which converts the HD DVD stream into a Bluray stream.

So the end result is that you have a “free” HD DVD version of the movie “lying” around."is correct. You still haven't actually said why you claim my "... rdjam was telling people that using VC-1 meant that they would have an HD DVD compliant encode ..." is a misrepresentation of what you said, but instead tried to make it seem like you didn't say anything like that. Feel free to tell us why you say my statement is a misrepresentation while stil claiming that they will end up with an HD DVD version. I'm guessing that instead you'll use some lame excuse to not answer that one.

--Darin

rdjam

01-30-07, 03:55 PM

It isn't impossible at all. You just don't comprehend it.

--Darin
Hah :P I just realized what is happening here - the Wii is temporarily out of stock! :p The cheapest Wii on Amazon is a scalper at $411.

Enjoy the moment, when the Wii's are back in stock things'll be back to where they were...

darinp2

01-30-07, 03:56 PM

Hah :P I just realized what is happening here - the Wii is temporarily out of stock! :p The cheapest Wii on Amazon is a scalper at $411.

Enjoy the moment, when the Wii's are back in stock things'll be back to where they were...I have a Wii and love it. Glad you were able to figure this one out without me having to explain every detail. Now if you would quit claiming that Blu-ray studios using VC-1 had to have an HD DVD encode when they didn't, that would be nice too.

--Darin

Kosty

01-30-07, 03:57 PM

Blu-ray has already won, and deep down we all know it...........
.....
.....
and
.....
...There is no war anymore. And deep down we all know it and we should move on and just get Universal to go neutral so we can come together and focus on the MOVIES ONLY, which is why we are all, deep down, in this together

I know you get your jollies off of "arguing" with people about the format war but some of us enjoy watching HD movies. :rolleyes:

Maybe that's why there's been less arguing...there's more to watch.*sigh*

OK Yoyo's called it, we can all log off now and hide in our corners. :rolleyes:

Seriously, I don't know anyone's who argued all of theose points, yet alone kept track of them. Most of those summaries are kinda distorted twistings of the points.

Bottom line is still too soon tell and you haven't even considered the effect of additional lower priced HD DVD players coming into the market and considered the fact of new HD DVD titles being released.

The PS3 has done at least (and more) what it needed to do to keep Blu-ray viable, but its far from a knockout. HD DVD has several advantages and it grows more durable over time. There is a sharp increase in Blu-ray disc sales, but HD DVD still has time on its side. The longer HD DVD survives and the more players adn HD DVD discs sold then lower the chance it will go away. If HD DVD doesn't go away it makes it much more difficult for Sony and the BDA to make Blu-ray economical. The entire Blu-ray ecosystem is based on one format dominance, adn if it can't achiece that HD DVD lower player prices will start to create mass sales over time.

jmpage2

01-30-07, 03:59 PM

Isn't that rather insulting to all of those HD DVD to BD converts that love their PS3s?

Not to mention all the original PS3 fans, but I expect that from you.

For PS3 fans to get respect, they have to be willing to give it.

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 03:59 PM

Hah :P I just realized what is happening here - the Wii is temporarily out of stock! :p The cheapest Wii on Amazon is a scalper at $411.

Enjoy the moment, when the Wii's are back in stock things'll be back to where they were...

You aren't getting it, eh?

A $600 box that people say isn't in demand is topping the charts at Amazon right now.

Why is that if it is piled high at B&M everywhere and nobody wants them?

The Wii would undoubtedly be #1 if it were in stock. It's less than half the price.

Gary

Kosty

01-30-07, 04:02 PM

jmpage2

01-30-07, 04:03 PM

You aren't getting it, eh?

A $600 box that people say isn't in demand is topping the charts at Amazon right now.

Why is that if it is piled high at B&M everywhere and nobody wants them?

The Wii would undoubtedly be #1 if it were in stock. It's less than half the price.

Gary

iTrackr retail data for Nintendo Wii

Item Statistics
Users Tracking: 3617
Click for Local User Count
National Availability: 3%

iTrackr retail data for Sony Playstation 3 60GB

tem Statistics
Users Tracking: 895
Click for Local User Count
National Availability: 64%

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 04:03 PM

Is it good at playing a BR movie? Yes it is, but it takes a lot more than that to "impress" the AV crowd.

It IS impressing the A/V crowd. At least three major A/V mags have raved about it.

Gary

rdjam

01-30-07, 04:07 PM

They never had to.... *SNIP*
Oh Lord...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9616725&&#post9616725

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9625101&&#post9625101

Darin, you were wrong - Leave it be already...

rdjam

01-30-07, 04:09 PM

iTrackr retail data for Nintendo Wii

Item Statistics
Users Tracking: 3617
Click for Local User Count
National Availability: 3%

iTrackr retail data for Sony Playstation 3 60GB

tem Statistics
Users Tracking: 895
Click for Local User Count
National Availability: 64%
Good post!

Translation:

1) There are virtually no Wiis available in the US right now.

2) There are PS3s on the shelves everywhere...

3) There are more than 4 times as many people looking for Wiis than PS3s on the tracker.

Sketcha

01-30-07, 04:09 PM

For PS3 fans to get respect, they have to be willing to give it.

That's certainly fair.

Now what about my first question? You kind of skipped over that.

jmpage2

01-30-07, 04:09 PM

It IS impressing the A/V crowd. At least three major A/V mags have raved about it.

Gary

They are impressed because every other BR player costs a grand or more. Do you really think people want to have two or more optical playback devices in their homes to watch movies with (The PS3 and a good upconverting DVD player)?

I suppose that we should all pitch our DVD collections now that we've been blessed with the almighty BR and eagerly await re-purchase of our collections on the chosen format? :rolleyes:

Any "next gen player" that can't even upsample DVD is about as next gen as an operating system that can't run the previous generations apps (Vista, *cough*, Vista).

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 04:09 PM

iTrackr retail data for Nintendo Wii

Item Statistics
Users Tracking: 3617
Click for Local User Count
National Availability: 3%

iTrackr retail data for Sony Playstation 3 60GB

tem Statistics
Users Tracking: 895
Click for Local User Count
National Availability: 64%

Neat. Boy the web is an amazing thing.

How is availability measured? At least one in stock? At least 10?

I wouldn't consider it "in stock" unless it was possible for someone to see a new posting of availability and be able to get to the store with a reasonable likelyhood of the units still being in stock. Would you agree?

Gary

jmpage2

01-30-07, 04:11 PM

Neat. Boy the web is an amazing thing.

How is availability measured? At least one in stock? At least 10?

I wouldn't consider it "in stock" unless it was possible for someone to see a new posting of availability and be able to get to the store with a reasonable likelyhood of the units still being in stock. Would you agree?

Gary

I've had no problem seeing PS3 piled up all over the place here (Denver). But go ahead and call BS on a very reliable subscription service that helps thousands find hard to get products.

And on a lighter note;

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ljZOHnZNaBc

Kosty

01-30-07, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon
and CES really cemented my feelings as HD DVD has the momentum going forward whereas Blu-Ray's CES announcements were rather uneventful...

~Alan

I wasn't at CES, but all the stories coming out of CES were HD DVD...

Blu-Ray was quiet other than a few prototype players...

~Alan Which CES were you at?!?

What did HD DVD actually show us, not tell us about. One 1080p player from Tosh. Everything else was spin and future announcements that might never materialise.

What did BD show us, not tell us about. One new player from Samsung, two from Sony, one from Sharp, and a recorder from Hitachi.

That is just the hardware, I think we can all agree about the complete and utter destruction of HD DVD on the software side.

The same one I was at. Blu-ray press conferences with silly slides that the press attendees laughed at doesn't trump more manufacturers and demonstrated interactivity options. Along with several companies openly talking about going format neutral in their player options.

Blu-ray had more displays but no new players that were going for the sub $500 mark. The dual-format (ie adds HD DVD capability) LG player was teh buzz of the show.

There were hardware manufacturer announcements on both high and low end.

Take away the BDA 28 page propaganda piece declaring a win and Blu-ray had nothing new while HD DVD was like a duck swimming , with a lot happening under the surface.

Notice also a lot of press moderation after the show. A lot of the BDA information was treated with skepticism while HD DVD showed more capability available with existing equipment. Universal made up for the HD DVD silence after the show.

Sketcha

01-30-07, 04:13 PM

Good post!

Translation:

1) There are virtually no Wiis available in the US right now.

2) There are PS3s on the shelves everywhere...

3) There are more than 4 times as many people looking for Wiis than PS3s on the tracker.

I must be missing something. Can you please explain to me how 64% = "PS3s on the shelves everywhere?"

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 04:16 PM

I've had no problem seeing PS3 piled up all over the place here (Denver). But go ahead and call BS on a very reliable subscription service that helps thousands find hard to get products.

Where was I calling BS? I was asking how availability is measured. I'm a curious person.

Clearly people are choosing to buy off Amazon rather than to travel to the PS/3 nirvana of Denver. :)

Gary

Dixie Ruptin

01-30-07, 04:16 PM

They are impressed because every other BR player costs a grand or more.

do you just make stuff up like this all the time? the philips and samsung players are both less than $600. the sony is going for less than $800. i think like 1 or 2 high end players go for a thousand.

making stuff up that's blatantly wrong wont help you win arguments here, boy.

Alan Gordon

01-30-07, 04:18 PM

What did HD DVD actually show us, not tell us about. One 1080p player from Tosh. Everything else was spin and future announcements that might never materialise.

HD DVD announced new hardware manufacturers including chinese manufacturers which will bring down the cost of players. They announced a 51gb disc which might never come to fruition, but it was interesting nonetheless. News broke out from the adult community that they are embracing HD DVD, and not Blu-Ray... I don't really care about that much... but it's big news for the format.

What did BD show us, not tell us about. One new player from Samsung, two from Sony, one from Sharp, and a recorder from Hitachi.

According to what I read, the Sony players were prototypes (big whoop!), and Samsung has already released a player. The Sharp and the Hitachi recorder are something, but are they still prototypes? Plus, Sharp and Hitachi have been expected to put out BD units, so no big whoop... although the Hitachi recorder is COOL!!

The only thing that Blu-Ray had going for it is the news that Warner plans to convert to Total-HD discs insuring that HD DVD supporters have to purchase Blu-Ray discs as well... and the news that New Line was doing the same.

That is just the hardware, I think we can all agree about the complete and utter destruction of HD DVD on the software side.

Announced titles, sure... but then again, most of the titles announced are Fox, Disney, MGM, and Sony titles that lack many extras and in the case of Fox & MGM at least, are overpriced.

However, I was referring more to things that will help push the format, both in survival and future plans... and Blu-Ray was very very quiet...

~Alan

jmpage2

01-30-07, 04:18 PM

That's certainly fair.

Now what about my first question? You kind of skipped over that.

Personally I don't know anyone who is impressed by the idea of putting a non upconverting HD player that requires a special BT remote into their home theater.

I'm sure others have their own priorities.

Quite a few people here have purchased it basically because "it's the only affordable BR player". Many of these same folks have purchased hundreds of movies on both formats, so I would say folks are starved for content more than anything and the PS3 does a good job of holding people over until the format war is settled.

I would also say that there are probably about as many HD-DVD/PS3 owners who prefer HD-DVD over the PS3 as the inverse based on the posts I have read.

2Channel

01-30-07, 04:21 PM

Because of this... ;)

b2b

Mpeg2 clearly presents challenges for a friends at Sony Pictures. ;)

jmpage2

01-30-07, 04:22 PM

do you just make stuff up like this all the time? the philips and samsung players are both less than $600. the sony is going for less than $800. i think like 1 or 2 high end players go for a thousand.

making stuff up that's blatantly wrong wont help you win arguments here, boy.

Oh, now I'm a "boy"? :rolleyes:

That's a good one.

Going to pricegrabber and finding the lowest price listed on something is a helluva lot different than what things sell for at retail, where the majority of major CES purchases happen.

You guys are really funny. It's like a pack of PS3 fanatics are out on the prowl and found someone who doesn't like the PS3.

"look, he doesn't think the PS3 is the second coming of Christ, get him!!!!"

:D

dialog_gvf

01-30-07, 04:23 PM

Personally I don't know anyone who is impressed by the idea of putting a non upconverting HD player that requires a special BT remote into their home theater.

Bluetooth is probably the future of HTPC/Media PC remotes. So, the Logitech better get off its arse and update the RF supporting Harmony universal remote.

Ending line of sight is a POSITIVE thing. People's attitudes will catch up.

And really, it is a rather trivial thing for some enterprising maker, if people insist on IR. Heck, you'd think Logitech would already be working on this.

Gary

Sketcha

01-30-07, 04:24 PM

Sketcha

01-30-07, 04:27 PM

Personally I don't know anyone who is impressed by the idea of putting a non upconverting HD player that requires a special BT remote into their home theater.

I'm sure others have their own priorities.

Quite a few people here have purchased it basically because "it's the only affordable BR player". Many of these same folks have purchased hundreds of movies on both formats, so I would say folks are starved for content more than anything and the PS3 does a good job of holding people over until the format war is settled.

I would also say that there are probably about as many HD-DVD/PS3 owners who prefer HD-DVD over the PS3 as the inverse based on the posts I have read.

Well I'll be sure to let all of the happy converts with PS3s know that you said they should not be happy.

Maxpower1987

01-30-07, 04:27 PM

HD DVD announced new hardware manufacturers including chinese manufacturers which will bring down the cost of players. They announced a 51gb disc which might never come to fruition, but it was interesting nonetheless. News broke out from the adult community that they are embracing HD DVD, and not Blu-Ray... I don't really care about that much... but it's big news for the format.

Again I will repeat, what did they show us. One new 1080p player from Tosh. Unless you found a booth with the TL51 disc playing on a Shinco player. Chinese players have been promised in the past, they never materialised, why do you think they will this time?

According to what I read, the Sony players were prototypes (big whoop!), and Samsung has already released a player. The Sharp and the Hitachi recorder are something, but are they still prototypes? Plus, Sharp and Hitachi have been expected to put out BD units, so no big whoop... although the Hitachi recorder is COOL!!

Samsung showed the BD-P1200 their G2 player, so I would count that as new, and the Sharp looks awesome, as does the Hitachi, for Sony we will have to wait for their own press conference in March as this is when they do all of their announcing.

The only thing that Blu-Ray had going for it is the news that Warner plans to convert to Total-HD discs insuring that HD DVD supporters have to purchase Blu-Ray discs as well... and the news that New Line was doing the same.

THD is a terrible idea IMO.

Announced titles, sure... but then again, most of the titles announced are Fox, Disney, MGM, and Sony titles that lack many extras and in the case of Fox & MGM at least, are overpriced.

However, I was referring more to things that will help push the format, both in survival and future plans... and Blu-Ray was very very quiet...

~Alan

Titles push the format, why would anyone buy a format knowing that it will never have the whole Colombia/SPE/MGM library (about 6000 movies I think).

On pricing, Uni just announced that 90% of releases will be combos, that does not help HD DVDs lower price strategy one bit. (I also think that Fox titles are too expensive, but historically they are expensive on DVD as well, and Blu-ray has never claimed to be cheap.)

2Channel

01-30-07, 04:28 PM

Memory capacity is like RAM and horsepower and resolution. More is NEVER bad. We still haven't seen the 3hour + epics, have we? The longest that is coming to mind is Spartacus on HD-DVD and that was not well received...

What's the old adage? "Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it..."

The old adage I remember is paying extra for something you'll never use.

Spartacus? Come on, you know that's an old title and the review makes it clear that the restoration job was poor (weakest link in the chain). Having said that it still scored higher for PQ than Talladega Nights (BD-50) which is a very recent movie.

As for 3 hour + epics, Fox clearly disagrees with you as Dances with Wolves is coming out in BD-25.

Kosty

01-30-07, 04:28 PM

HD DVD announced new hardware manufacturers including chinese manufacturers which will bring down the cost of players. They announced a 51gb disc which might never come to fruition, but it was interesting nonetheless. News broke out from the adult community that they are embracing HD DVD, and not Blu-Ray... I don't really care about that much... but it's big news for the format.

According to what I read, the Sony players were prototypes (big whoop!), and Samsung has already released a player. The Sharp and the Hitachi recorder are something, but are they still prototypes? Plus, Sharp and Hitachi have been expected to put out BD units, so no big whoop... although the Hitachi recorder is COOL!!

The only thing that Blu-Ray had going for it is the news that Warner plans to convert to Total-HD discs insuring that HD DVD supporters have to purchase Blu-Ray discs as well... and the news that New Line was doing the same.

Announced titles, sure... but then again, most of the titles announced are Fox, Disney, MGM, and Sony titles that lack many extras and in the case of Fox & MGM at least, are overpriced.

However, I was referring more to things that will help push the format, both in survival and future plans... and Blu-Ray was very very quiet...

~Alan Agree. CES basically showed working models o fthe Cedia prototypes. There were very few Blu-ray surprises and a lot of HD DVD ones, TL51, Adult industry, HD A20, HD A2 anticpated manufacturing volumes.

No real pre-Blu-ray surprises unless you can spin the LG conversion of their standalone Blu-ray player into a $1199 dual format player as a pro-Blu-ray announcement or THD hybrid discs as being a HD DVD killer.

jmpage2

01-30-07, 04:32 PM

Well I'll be sure to let all of the happy converts with PS3s know that you said they should not be happy.

Gee, now who is putting words in my mouth? Please demonstrate to me where I typed that.

Plenty of people who bought the PS3 admitted right here in our very own AVS forums that they did it because it was the only affordable BR player currently available.

If they are happy with it then good for them. Like I said, I don't know anyone personally who would settle for using a gaming console as the source unit for their home theater.

Alan Gordon

01-30-07, 04:32 PM

So let me see if I get this straight, Sony prototypes are "big whoop!" and Chinese vaporware is big news?

Yes... Sony supporting Blu-Ray is not news. Just as I don't think the HD-A20 from Toshiba was that big of news.

However, Chinese "vaporware" shows something new for future growth of the format.

Sony showed very little future growth for Blu-Ray, and instead chose to announce a ton of software so that they could have some any news...

Tomorrow, Sony could make press releases showing me something, but CES was stagnant for Blu-Ray.

~Alan

Rio

01-30-07, 04:38 PM

I wasn't at CES, but all the stories coming out of CES were HD DVD...

Blu-Ray was quiet other than a few prototype players...Blu-ray booth was quiet, while HD DVD PRG booth was hot...

Taken on 1/9 16:26
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/2358/img0593bi6.jpg

Taken on 1/9 16:36
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/7434/img0599qz4.jpg

2Channel

01-30-07, 04:38 PM

Eh? I'll put my Kingdom of Heaven, Black Hawk Down, and Crank BD's (all in MPEG2) against any of my VC1 HD-DVD's... Those movies available for direct comparison (MI3, Aeon Flux, Corpse Bride, for example all available on MPEG2 BD and VC1 HD-DVD ) should dispute this, as well.

Funny that your three favorite MPEG2 titles are BD-50. I guess that's why we need BD-50s.

darinp2

01-30-07, 04:39 PM

Oh Lord...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9616725&&#post9616725

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9625101&&#post9625101

Darin, you were wrong - Leave it be already...Nope. I'm not wrong. If you were more observant you would notice that although you like to quote Ben and Amir to support what you have said, neither one of them will say that the following is correct:
Now, not all of you may realize this, but the only way to get a VC1 encode for Bluray is to do a VC1 encode for HD DVD first. THEN, you run a tool provided by Microsoft which converts the HD DVD stream into a Bluray stream.

So the end result is that you have a “free” HD DVD version of the movie “lying” around."I don't doubt that Amir liked you spreading misinformation, but at this point he won't say that Blu-ray studios using VC-1 would get HD DVD encodes along the way because it isn't a true statement, even though he answered "Yes" at one point and had to clarify his statement later, and even with the encoder that would include the 60i flags that would then need to be taken out with a tool.

You don't actually believe that having 60i flags makes an encode an HD DVD encode, do you?

And you still are using avoidance tactics to keep from actually answering how my, "... rdjam was telling people that using VC-1 meant that they would have an HD DVD compliant encode ..." is a misrepresentation of what you said. That is what started you going off and it is supported by what you have posted since then, yet you claim it is a misrepresentation.

You also told us that the VC-1 encoder defaults to HD DVD encodes. But you can see that Ben answered my question here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9632073&&#post9632073
What ABR and PBR does the VC-1 encoder default to? What GOP length does it default to?
The compressionist picks when they set the project up.I figured that was the answer. If you still believe that the encoder just defaulted to HD DVD values, then how about telling us what ABR and PBR you thought it defaulted to.

If your behaviour is like past behaviour, you will link to things that you said before (which don't answer the question) in order to avoid actually answering a straightforward question or say something like, "ignored" because you don't really have a good answer.

--Darin

Sketcha

01-30-07, 04:51 PM

Gee, now who is putting words in my mouth? Please demonstrate to me where I typed that.

Plenty of people who bought the PS3 admitted right here in our very own AVS forums that they did it because it was the only affordable BR player currently available.

If they are happy with it then good for them. Like I said, I don't know anyone personally who would settle for using a gaming console as the source unit for their home theater.

I'm sorry if I upset you.

You're right, it was an extrapolation.

Here is the initial quote I was responding to...

"Originally Posted by jmpage2
Is it good at playing a BR movie? Yes it is, but it takes a lot more than that to "impress" the AV crowd."

To which I responded something along the lines of how insulting that was to your ex-fellow die hards that love their PS3s

You are probably unaware (and rightfully so unless you've been trolling) that there are numerous posts in the BD hardware forum from die-hard HD DVD fans who have converted to neutral by way of the PS3 and love them. Many have said they prefer the PS3 to their Toshibas. Obviously the ones with 360 add-ons prefer the PS3 as well.

darinp2

01-30-07, 04:55 PM

If they are happy with it then good for them. Like I said, I don't know anyone personally who would settle for using a gaming console as the source unit for their home theater.You might not know anybody personally, but one of the main people responsible for the image quality you see and one of the pickiest people around about video (Stacey Spears who works on VC-1 and writes for WideScreenReview) posted here that he was putting the PS3 in use in his main theater.

--Darin

Alan Gordon

01-30-07, 04:56 PM

Again I will repeat, what did they show us. One new 1080p player from Tosh. Unless you found a booth with the TL51 disc playing on a Shinco player. Chinese players have been promised in the past, they never materialised, why do you think they will this time?

Why did some people believe Dual-Layer Blu-Ray discs would materialize? So far, I have not been let down by HD DVD, I've never had an issue, and I see no reason why I shouldn't trust them.

Samsung showed the BD-P1200 their G2 player, so I would count that as new, and the Sharp looks awesome, as does the Hitachi, for Sony we will have to wait for their own press conference in March as this is when they do all of their announcing.

I've already stated how Samsung releasing a Blu-Ray player was nothing new, same for the Sony. As for the Sharp and Hitachi... (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/ces2006/gallery02.html)

THD is a terrible idea IMO.

Agreed!! But it was good news for Blu-Ray...

Titles push the format, why would anyone buy a format knowing that it will never have the whole Colombia/SPE/MGM library (about 6000 movies I think).

I'm the only person I know who knows what movies comes from which studio... Disney being an exception... Unless they were to look up which studios are affiliate with each, most people probably won't know the difference. Also, I firmly expect to buy Sony/MGM/Fox/Disney/Lionsgate films on HD DVD... I just don't mind waiting...

On pricing, Uni just announced that 90% of releases will be combos, that does not help HD DVDs lower price strategy one bit. (I also think that Fox titles are too expensive, but historically they are expensive on DVD as well, and Blu-ray has never claimed to be cheap.)

I actually prefer Combos on new titles and kids films... and catalog releases are just something I'll have to live with. At least I get something over Fox's Blu-Ray titles...

~Alan

Sketcha

01-30-07, 04:57 PM

Yes... Sony supporting Blu-Ray is not news. Just as I don't think the HD-A20 from Toshiba was that big of news.

However, Chinese "vaporware" shows something new for future growth of the format.

Sony showed very little future growth for Blu-Ray, and instead chose to announce a ton of software so that they could have some any news...

Tomorrow, Sony could make press releases showing me something, but CES was stagnant for Blu-Ray.

~Alan

That's fair, but really now, there isn't much more to show. There isn't much left.

1. BD already has most of the major manufacturers. I guess they could announce that they now also have Toshiba.

2. They have major content domination with no sign of defection as was incorrectly prophesized by the HD DVD camp.

3. The PS3 is great and is the Trojan Horse that it was expected to be.

I don't know. You tell me, what does HD DVD have that BD doesn't already?

Oh that's right, the Chinese players that were "announced." What was that target date again?

Sketcha

01-30-07, 04:59 PM

Blu-ray booth was quiet, while HD DVD PRG booth was hot...

Taken on 1/9 16:26
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/2358/img0593bi6.jpg

Taken on 1/9 16:36
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/7434/img0599qz4.jpg

Yeah, but those pictures were taken 10 minutes apart. I'm sure you just missed the massive crowd at the HD DVD booth. :D

jmpage2

01-30-07, 05:01 PM

That's fair, but really now, there isn't much more to show. There isn't much left.

1. BD already has most of the major manufacturers. I guess they could announce that they now also have Toshiba.

2. They have major content domination with no sign of defection as was incorrectly prophesized by the HD DVD camp.

3. The PS3 is great and is the Trojan Horse that it was expected to be.

I don't know. You tell me, what does HD DVD have that BD doesn't already?

Oh that's right, the Chinese players that were "announced." What was that target date again?

The HDA2 competes well with the PS3 for those who simply want something that plays high definition movies. It is cheaper than the PS3, has good performance and is a great upscaling DVD player.

I don't think that Sony should count "manufacturers" who don't have an actual shipping SKU for their BR product.

Content is obviously HD-DVDs problem and I don't think the question will be answered this year if HD-DVDs content problems will be solved.

Sketcha

01-30-07, 05:02 PM

You might not know anybody personally, but one of the main people responsible for the image quality you see and one of the pickiest people around about video (Stacey Spears who works on VC-1 and writes for WideScreenReview) posted here that he was putting the PS3 in use in his main theater.

--Darin

Yeah, but what does he know that jmpage2 doesn't. ;)

darinp2

01-30-07, 05:02 PM

Rio,

Was that presentation going on at the Blu-ray booth constantly, or did they have scheduled times for it? If it was only once in a while then it seems a little bit unfair to use that time.

--Darin

Alan Gordon

01-30-07, 05:08 PM

2. They have major content domination with no sign of defection as was incorrectly prophesized by the HD DVD camp.

After CES, the Blu-Ray camp was prophesizing that Universal was going to defect. So what, it's just taking longer than expected...

3. The PS3 is great and is the Trojan Horse that it was expected to be.

It may be the Trojan Horse it was expected to be, but why does everyone I speak to say they have no interest in the PS3 due to the price? Why do several retailers I spoke to say they've a lot of PS3 returns? Why do everyone I speak to (outside the Blu-Ray fanboys on this forum) talk about how high the PS3 is, how Sony has lost touch with the gaming community, how many people have had issues with their PS3.

I don't know. You tell me, what does HD DVD have that BD doesn't already?

A future! ;)

~Alan

Maxpower1987

01-30-07, 05:09 PM

Why did some people believe Dual-Layer Blu-Ray discs would materialize? So far, I have not been let down by HD DVD, I've never had an issue, and I see no reason why I shouldn't trust them.

Because Amir said they would not, and at the time his posts were much more credible.

I've already stated how Samsung releasing a Blu-Ray player was nothing new, same for the Sony. As for the Sharp and Hitachi... (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/ces2006/gallery02.html)

How can you say that a HDMI 1.3 player with wifi is nothing new, the only reason you complain that there are no new CE companies to push BD is that BD has all of the major CEs (sans Toshiba) behind it already.

Agreed!! But it was good news for Blu-Ray...

Fact 1. BD owners outnumber HD DVD owners due to the PS3.
Fact 2. THD is forcing us to buy HD DVD, which we will never use.

I'm the only person I know who knows what movies comes from which studio... Disney being an exception... Unless they were to look up which studios are affiliate with each, most people probably won't know the difference. Also, I firmly expect to buy Sony/MGM/Fox/Disney/Lionsgate films on HD DVD... I just don't mind waiting...

I doubt that we will ever see SPE/MGM/Colombia films on HD DVD

I actually prefer Combos on new titles and kids films... and catalog releases are just something I'll have to live with. At least I get something over Fox's Blu-Ray titles...

~Alan

I bought BD because it is new tech, I would rather not pay more money for something which I will ever use, hence my general distaste for the use of THD/Combo.

Sketcha

01-30-07, 05:10 PM

The HDA2 competes well with the PS3 for those who simply want something that plays high definition movies. It is cheaper than the PS3, has good performance and is a great upscaling DVD player.

I'm sure your right. Never said it didn't. It was you who stated that it would "take a lot more than that to impress the A/V crowd," in reference, of course to the inferior PS3.

Now for my admission...

I have stated many times that I believe the lack of upconversion in the PS3 was a major oversight. If that was the only thing keeping them from releasing it in time for Christmas, than I guess I understand, but an update had better be coming soon.

This was their second mistake following the much larger one of the poor initial transfers. Without this, I think we would likely be further down the BD domination road. How many fencers went for HD DVD when those first transfers came out. Terrible mistake.

In spite of all of this, recent converts love their PS3s.

Sketcha

01-30-07, 05:15 PM

After CES, the Blu-Ray camp was prophesizing that Universal was going to defect. So what, it's just taking longer than expected...

Yes.

It may be the Trojan Horse it was expected to be, but why does everyone I speak to say they have no interest in the PS3 due to the price? Why do several retailers I spoke to say they've a lot of PS3 returns? Why do everyone I speak to (outside the Blu-Ray fanboys on this forum) talk about how high the PS3 is, how Sony has lost touch with the gaming community, how many people have had issues with their PS3.

That's complicated. Do all of these people own HD DVD players?

I've always believed that BD was bad for the PS3, at least in the short term. Just like I always said that the PS3 was great for BD.

A future! ;)

~Alan

LOL!!! :p

I really did LOL. Nice work! Way to lighten it up a bit.

Alan Gordon

01-30-07, 05:21 PM

How can you say that a HDMI 1.3 player with wifi is nothing new, the only reason you complain that there are no new CE companies to push BD is that BD has all of the major CEs (sans Toshiba) behind it already.

I'm not complaining, just saying that nothing we didn't already know was said.

Fact 1. BD owners outnumber HD DVD owners due to the PS3.
Fact 2. THD is forcing us to buy HD DVD, which we will never use.

Fact 1: BD-CAPABLE owners outnumber HD DVD owners due to the PS3.
Fact 2: THD is forcing us to buy Blu-Ray, which we will never use.
Fact 3: Fact #2 is a draw!

I doubt that we will ever see SPE/MGM/Colombia films on HD DVD

I doubt we will ever seen Universal/Weinstein on Blu-Ray...

I bought BD because it is new tech, I would rather not pay more money for something which I will ever use, hence my general distaste for the use of THD/Combo.

I bought HD DVD because it increases my enjoyment of film. I would rather pay a couple of dollars extra to be able to lend/play my films in other rooms until HD DVD players go down in price comparable to DVD than to have to buy a HD DVD and a DVD... hence my general support of HD DVD Combo discs. Total HD discs are sucky as I have no use for Blu-Ray discs.

~Alan

UxiSXRD

01-30-07, 05:23 PM

Funny that your three favorite MPEG2 titles are BD-50. I guess that's why we need BD-50s.

My X-Men Last Stand and Tears of the Sun disagree with you. ;)

In reality, there is a context that's important and two subjects are different 'theaters' in the same general 'format war.' Codec, I'm largely convinced is irrelevent by itself, though perhaps useful if there are capacity constraints.

I'd love to see a quantifiable analysis of the cost effectiveness of a proper VC1 or AVC encode versus the investment in BD50. :)

For certain titles, indeed BD50 would be nice, but it's hardly necessary for all titles.

Alan Gordon

01-30-07, 05:24 PM

That's complicated. Do all of these people own HD DVD players?

Several of them, no. Most of them I don't know well enough to say.

I've always believed that BD was bad for the PS3, at least in the short term. Just like I always said that the PS3 was great for BD.

Agreed!!

LOL!!! :p

I really did LOL. Nice work! Way to lighten it up a bit.

Thanks! I'm glad you took it in the manner in which I intended.

~Alan

darinp2

01-30-07, 05:25 PM

I doubt we will ever seen Universal/Weinstein on Blu-Ray...I'm curious. Do you think that HD DVD will come back from the trouncing it seems to be getting in Japan (here (http://nolist.jp/bdvshddvd/) where the top ranked HD DVD title is ranked lower than the 10th place Blu-ray title), or that Universal and the Weinsteins will be willing to pretty much give the Japanese market up as far as releasing HD movies on discs in the longer run (say 5 years and not just this year or next)?

--Darin

UxiSXRD

01-30-07, 05:31 PM

As for 3 hour + epics, Fox clearly disagrees with you as Dances with Wolves is coming out in BD-25.

Only because they obviously enjoy double-dipping.

Andrew P

01-30-07, 05:32 PM

I'm curious. Do you think that HD DVD will come back from the trouncing it seems to be getting in Japan (here (http://nolist.jp/bdvshddvd/) where the top ranked HD DVD title is ranked lower than the 10th place Blu-ray title), or that Universal and the Weinsteins will be willing to pretty much give the Japanese market up as far as releasing HD movies on discs in the longer run (say 5 years and not just this year or next)?

--Darin

I think it depends on the sales volume of these titles and the overall size of the Japanese movie market. Of course I do not know either number, but if the revenue/profit is there then I would expect any company to look at this (including the format battle in the US).

Alan Gordon

01-30-07, 05:33 PM

I'm curious. Do you think that HD DVD will come back from the trouncing it seems to be getting in Japan (here (http://nolist.jp/bdvshddvd/) where the top ranked HD DVD title is ranked lower than the 10th place Blu-ray title), or that Universal/Weinstein will be willing to pretty much give the Japanese market up as far as releasing HD movies on discs?

Honestly... I really don't know.

I've never been out of the country, so my knowledge of the Japanese market doesn't amount to much... but I believe it could happen. For instance, while I believe the PS3 will sell a BOAT-LOAD of PS3s, I do believe that it will probably be the third place gaming system here in the U.S., yet we know how well it will do in Japan where the 360 is nothing.

So... I'm going to say that Universal/Weinstein could possibly support Blu-Ray solely in Japan, and HD DVD here, since I believe them to be the eventual format winner here.

~Alan

darinp2

01-30-07, 05:37 PM

So... I'm going to say that Universal/Weinstein could possibly support Blu-Ray solely in Japan, and HD DVD here, since I believe them to be the eventual format winner here.One little interesting twist here. Japan and the US are in the same region for Blu-ray. For HD DVD, there is currently no region encoding, so supporting one format in one territory and a different format in another territory would bring some unique things.

As far as the Japanese market and the size compared to the US, I wish we could get some in stock numbers for Amazon in Japan to track to see how sales volume compares to HD DVD and Blu-ray movies on Amazon in the US.

--Darin

cctvtech

01-30-07, 05:47 PM

It looks like BD is rapidly going to win the wars. Toshiba is the only manufacturer of HD DVD players (with RCA planning to release one soon and LG releasing their hybrid). BD has:

Samsung - BD-P1000, BD-P1200 (3/07)
Panasonic - DMP-BD10
Philips - BDP9000
Sony - BDP-S1
Pioneer - BDP-HD1
Sharp - DV-BP1 (Q2 2007)
LG - BD100 (no date)
Lite-On BDP-X1 (no date)
Mitsubishi (no date)
LG Hybrid (BD and HD DVD) (no date)

b.greenway

01-30-07, 05:51 PM

It looks like BD is rapidly going to win the wars. Toshiba is the only manufacturer of HD DVD players
Popular theory, it goes back well before either format was even launched. Oddly enough it seems to be as irrelevant now as it was then as BD standalone sales have been dwarfed by the PS3.

Rio

01-30-07, 05:52 PM

Yeah, but those pictures were taken 10 minutes apart. I'm sure you just missed the massive crowd at the HD DVD booth. :DYeah, I must miss it. :)

Was that presentation going on at the Blu-ray booth constantly, or did they have scheduled times for it? If it was only once in a while then it seems a little bit unfair to use that time.Both booths had scheduled presentations. BDA's one was presented at open stage, while HD DVD's one was presented at closed 18 wheeler theater. I saw some people were lining in front to 18 wheeler, but honestly speaking, I found it was waste of time since the presentation was basically the same one of Warner's HD DVD promotional video piece we see in their titles. Anyway, opted the closed presentation and less appearance to the public in result was HD DVD PRG's choice.

Sketcha

01-30-07, 05:55 PM

As far as the Japanese market and the size compared to the US, I wish we could get some in stock numbers for Amazon in Japan to track to see how sales volume compares to HD DVD and Blu-ray movies on Amazon in the US.

--Darin

Well I just used the google translator and found that Superman Returns was ranked 999 along with DVD.

That's about as far as I took it, but it seems dooable.

Alan Gordon

01-30-07, 05:58 PM

Sketcha

01-30-07, 05:59 PM

WiFi-Spy

01-30-07, 06:00 PM

darinp2

01-30-07, 06:01 PM

Well I just used the google translator and found that Superman Returns was ranked 999 along with DVD.

That's about as far as I took it, but it seems dooable.We can get some rankings here:

http://nolist.jp/bdvshddvd/

It is the in stock numbers that would be helpful. Especially if we could get them for Japan, the US, and Europe (or maybe settle for the UK). At least as far as Amazon in each area it seems like they would be possible to get and graph.

--Darin

Alan Gordon

01-30-07, 06:06 PM

One little interesting twist here. Japan and the US are in the same region for Blu-ray. For HD DVD, there is currently no region encoding, so supporting one format in one territory and a different format in another territory would bring some unique things.

I could see how importing could become an issue, but should HD DVD take the lead here, and Blu-Ray there, there would be no real reason to do so... unless someone was just REAL impatient... and outside of a few people on here, I don't really see that happening en masse.

Personally, I've been wanting "Buffy" in widescreen DVD from the U.K. for years, and region-free players aren't that expensive... but I have yet to order them.

As far as the Japanese market and the size compared to the US, I wish we could get some in stock numbers for Amazon in Japan to track to see how sales volume compares to HD DVD and Blu-ray movies on Amazon in the US.

It would be interesting... as well as continuing to keep an eye on things over there after some retailers have their "super-mega" PS3 sales.

Of course, from my understanding, HD DVD is outselling Blu-Ray over in Europe, correct? Add to that the premium Sony has put on the PS3 over there, it should prove interesting to see what comes of the war over there.

Perhaps the world will become fragmented in their entertainment format... ala NTSC/Pal.

~Alan