I don't know about Europe, but Amazon.com won't ship electronics to Canada. Besides, is it wise to take the risk of not having a warranty?

The supply does seem to be spotty. Which is curious. I wonder why Denver or Chicago seem to have more quantity and/or less interest than elsewhere? Curious. You'd think that BB would ship the units where the demand is.

Gary

If you use a third-party anything on the PS3, you lose your warranty anyways ... :p

Though, I agree ... these nationwide retailers should have systems in place to know where and when to route inventory. Are they available near you as well? I went to iTrackr, but I'm not sure how they do their thing.

Both are also OOP, no?The Samsung is, but the Philips is a brand new machine, just becoming available.

Australia like Europe will only be getting 60GB PS3s.

Just to add to the discussion. Pricing from what I have seen so far indicates.

60GB PS3 --> $999AUD
20GB Xbox 360 -- > $599AUD
Xbox 360 Add on --> $249AUD (and includes King Kong HD-DVD)
Samsung 1st Gen --> $1599AUD
Toshiba Low End model --> est. $1099AUD
Toshiba High End model --> est. $1599AUD
Panasonic 1st Gen --> $2799AUD

Current exchange rates is about 77c to every $1AUD. So the comparable price in USD are as follows:

60GB PS3 --> $769USD
20GB Xbox 360 -- > $461USD
Xbox 360 Add on --> $191USD
Samsung 1st Gen --> $1231USD
Toshiba Low End model --> est. $846USD
Toshiba High End model --> est. $1231USD
Panasonic 1st Gen --> $2155USD

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

Panasonic 1st Gen --> $2155USDWow, nearly double the U.S. price.

Australia like Europe will only be getting 60GB PS3s.

Just to add to the discussion. Pricing from what I have seen so far indicates.

60GB PS3 --> $999AUD
20GB Xbox 360 -- > $599AUD
Xbox 360 Add on --> $249AUD (and includes King Kong HD-DVD)
Samsung 1st Gen --> $1599AUD
Toshiba Low End model --> est. $1099AUD
Toshiba High End model --> est. $1599AUD
Panasonic 1st Gen --> $2799AUD

Current exchange rates is about 77c to every $1AUD. So the comparable price in USD are as follows:

60GB PS3 --> $769USD
20GB Xbox 360 -- > $461USD
Xbox 360 Add on --> $191USD
Samsung 1st Gen --> $1231USD
Toshiba Low End model --> est. $846USD
Toshiba High End model --> est. $1231USD
Panasonic 1st Gen --> $2155USD

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

Wow, the PS3 is under the cheap Tosh!

But this is probably insignificant. I mean, there aren't many people in your tiny country/continent, are there? :D

Definitely not many people here, and even less that buy these gadgets... in terms of gaming, we don't count in the millions of consoles, more so in the hundreds of thousands.

Population is too low, an entire continent gone to waste :)

By my math the lower end Tosh should theoretically be $799AUD based on it being half the price of the high end. I have no idea why Toshiba are doing this. We do get ripped off on a lot of other things though so it's not like this is going to be taking top priority, I figure we won't make a difference one way or the other in the HD wars... I feel rather alone in this big ol continent!

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

It looks like BD is rapidly going to win the wars. Toshiba is the only manufacturer of HD DVD players (with RCA planning to release one soon and LG releasing their hybrid). BD has:

Samsung - BD-P1000, BD-P1200 (3/07)
Panasonic - DMP-BD10
Philips - BDP9000
Sony - BDP-S1
Pioneer - BDP-HD1
Sharp - DV-BP1 (Q2 2007)
LG - BD100 (no date)
Lite-On BDP-X1 (no date)
Mitsubishi (no date)
LG Hybrid (BD and HD DVD) (no date)


BD might win the war, but you can throw all those models listed above in the trashcan as far as having anything to do with winning. The only BD player having any impact now and in the near future is the PS3.

but MAN, it's a GREAT one!

:)

(at least mine is...)

Though, I agree ... these nationwide retailers should have systems in place to know where and when to route inventory. Are they available near you as well? I went to iTrackr, but I'm not sure how they do their thing.

They frequently show up in 100 quantity each week at my local BB. But, they are gone within a day each time. In general, except for a small quantity of rip-off bundles, you can't see a PS/3 in stock anywhere in downtown Toronto.

Gary

amazon is out of stock again on both PS3 models.
SOMEONE must be buying these...

;)

amazon is out of stock again on both PS3 models.
SOMEONE must be buying these... ;)

Sony Executives! ;)

~Alan

BD might win the war, but you can throw all those models listed above in the trashcan as far as having anything to do with winning.Why is that? If I was Joe Customer and was thinking about getting a high definition player to go along with the HDTV I got for Christmas, I would take that into consideration.

A lot more brands has to translate into a lot more sales. That was one of Sony's problems with Beta. Add the marketing clout of all of the BD manufacturers combined versus just Toshiba in stand-alone players.

I think that you can discount the gamer industry; Microsoft and Sony tend to cancel each other out there and that will end up as a relatively small part of the HD universe.

Why is that?

The point he was trying to make is that HD DVD stand-alone players are outselling Blu-Ray stand-alone players by a 5-1 margin (not counting the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on)

Unless you count the PS3, in which case, it's mopping the floor with HD DVD capable players.

Hence, the stand-alone Blu-Ray players aren't affecting much in this war.

~Alan

Hence, the stand-alone Blu-Ray players aren't affecting much in this war.(Yet!) Many of the players I listed were just released, or will be in the coming months. I think price was a major factor in the HD DVD lead. With the Philips listing at $600, price will be less of a concern.

(Yet!) Many of the players I listed were just released, or will be in the coming months. I think price was a major factor in the HD DVD lead. With the Philips listing at $600, price will be less of a concern.

While the Philips listing at $600 helps Blu-Ray, PS3 will still most likely be the driving force of Blu-Ray for at least several more months...

After that, it's anybody's guess...

~Alan

The point he was trying to make is that HD DVD stand-alone players are outselling Blu-Ray stand-alone players by a 5-1 margin (not counting the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on)

Unless you count the PS3, in which case, it's mopping the floor with HD DVD capable players.

Hence, the stand-alone Blu-Ray players aren't affecting much in this war.

~AlanAnd of course, that analysis makes no sense, since the PS3 was received as a great BD player, was the least expensive device and was manufactured in far higher volume. So comparing device vs. device while leaving out the PS3 is just an exercise in wishful thinking.

HD DVD announced new hardware manufacturers including chinese manufacturers which will bring down the cost of players. They announced a 51gb disc which might never come to fruition, but it was interesting nonetheless. News broke out from the adult community that they are embracing HD DVD, and not Blu-Ray... I don't really care about that much... but it's big news for the format.

and right after CES 2005

HD DVD announced new hardware manufacturers including chinese manufacturers which will bring down the cost of players. They announced a 45gb disc which might never come to fruition, but it was interesting nonetheless. News broke out from the adult community that they are embracing HD DVD, and not Blu-Ray... I don't really care about that much... but it's big news for the format.

seem familiar?

Why did some people believe Dual-Layer Blu-Ray discs would materialize?

added to the specs from the beginning, it was shown in public and every player had to be compatible.

On the other hand with HD DVD

always said 30 is mmore then enough, said 45 is on the way, 45 nor 51 where ever shown in public (even though 45 was talked about and was supposed to be added for the last 1.5 years), 45 GB was on the TLSP web site....

In other words one was obviously going to happen while the other is obviours BS

SCE will be fine in a year, the only loss made in that division is on the PS3, yes it is a big loss, but Kaz Hirai has said that by Jan 2008 they expect a 5% margin on the PS3, so that would mean a BoM of about $530-560 compared to the $800-900 that we see now. The PS2 will continue to subsidise losses made on the PS3, while they may not make a lot of money these days, it will contribute a significant amount with game royalties and accessories. The PSP is looking to have a record year, which will help the bottom line of SCE, and remember that they still have not had a price cut on this thing, so they must make a huge margin on each one sold. Tbh I applaud Sony for not taking the easy way out and putting a DVD drive in the PS3, gaming is about cutting edge as much as anything else, and Blu-ray is cutting edge.

IBM has sampled 65nm Cell processors with Sony starting research with NEC on the next 45nm successor, as silicon gets smaller, it gets cheaper. The old EE+GS will be stripped out of the G2 PS3 once they get a proper emulation solution, basically reducing the BoM by another $70-100 (the cost of these are changing the mainboard to accommodate the old processors as well as the silicon itself).

People are not looking far enough into the future, this thing will be around for 6-7 years just like the PS2, and it will make a profit, eventually.
We overestimate short-term impact and underestimate long-term impact, as someone said.

I agree with that and the above.

You might not know anybody personally, but one of the main people responsible for the image quality you see and one of the pickiest people around about video posted here that he was putting the PS3 in use in his main theater. --Darin
Not sure what that says about BD stand alone players

Not sure what that says about BD stand alone players

I'm sure he enjoys reaching for that goofball circa 1980's looking PS3 remote instead of his super expensive integrated one too.

Hah :P I just realized what is happening here - the Wii is temporarily out of stock! :p The cheapest Wii on Amazon is a scalper at $411.

Enjoy the moment, when the Wii's are back in stock things'll be back to where they were...
I just figured out that rdjam hates the PS3/Sony and its not that he loves the HD-dvd format.

just a side note a new SDK was sent out that has part of the PS3 scaler code.

I have a friend who works for electronic arts and he has kept me up to date on how there development with the PS3 is going there. he hates the playstation kit, he told me yesterday "it always starts out as a terrible dev system but slowly improves till its almost usable"

It looks like the PS3 will have DVD scaling by the big March push.

and right after CES 2005



seem familiar?
Anthony, I am new so must have missed it. Are these actual, one-year apart posts by someone on AVS?

just a side note a new SDK was sent out that has part of the PS3 scaler code.

I have a friend who works for electronic arts and he has kept me up to date on how there development with the PS3 is going there. he hates the playstation kit, he told me yesterday "it always starts out as a terrible dev system but slowly improves till its almost usable"

It looks like the PS3 will have DVD scaling by the big March push.
Sweet! Thank you, Sony

My X-Men Last Stand and Tears of the Sun disagree with you. ;)

In reality, there is a context that's important and two subjects are different 'theaters' in the same general 'format war.' Codec, I'm largely convinced is irrelevent by itself, though perhaps useful if there are capacity constraints.

I'd love to see a quantifiable analysis of the cost effectiveness of a proper VC1 or AVC encode versus the investment in BD50. :)

For certain titles, indeed BD50 would be nice, but it's hardly necessary for all titles.

Yes, I've seen that mpeg2 sometimes yields good results on BD-25, however it seems inconsistent at the smaller disc size. I suspect it has to do with movie length and how difficult the particular material is to encode. It's a better bet to just go AVC or VC1 on a 25 or 30GB disc.

As for the added cost of a VC1 or AVC encode vs BD-50, I suspect that for small runs it's probably cheaper to eat the added cost of BD-50s. For bigger runs it's probably cheaper to use VC1 or AVC as you pay for it only once, as opposed to an added tax on every disc you print.

I just figured out that rdjam hates the PS3/Sony and its not that he loves the HD-dvd format. Took you that long to figure that out? :rolleyes: (join date Jan 2007 ;) )


Disregard the I hate Sony diatribes by rdjam and try and see the underlying issues he bring up. Like a lot of the real passionate guys on either side or caught in the middle, if you get past the rah rah, there a lot of interesting ideas he brings up.

I don't understand his pure Sony is evil spiel either, but then again Sony employees didn't come into my house, beat up my pets, spray paint my walls with Blu-ray slogans and sel my children in captivity either, so I can't completely relate. :D

Are these actual, one-year apart posts by someone on AVS?

Not likely,

I just figured out that rdjam hates the PS3/Sony and its not that he loves the HD-dvd format.
Nope - were I a gamer I'd pick the Xbox360 because it is better. If you want I good idea about why I am wary of "the bluray" :) just spend some time on the petition site linked below.

just a side note a new SDK was sent out that has part of the PS3 scaler code.

I have a friend who works for electronic arts and he has kept me up to date on how there development with the PS3 is going there. he hates the playstation kit, he told me yesterday "it always starts out as a terrible dev system but slowly improves till its almost usable"

It looks like the PS3 will have DVD scaling by the big March push.
It doesn't look like it is a true scaler. It looks like they are trying to implement some sort of scaling using the Cell/GPU hardware. Not going too well so far...

Has anyone seen NPD data yet on the PS3 remote control? I'm curious to see the actual sales numbers.

Took you that long to figure that out? :rolleyes: (join date Jan 2007 ;) )


Disregard the I hate Sony diatribes by rdjam and try and see the underlying issues he bring up. Like a lot of the real passionate guys on either side or caught in the middle, if you get past the rah rah, there a lot of interesting ideas he brings up.

I don't understand his pure Sony is evil spiel either, but then again Sony employees didn't come into my house, beat up my pets, spray paint my walls with Blu-ray slogans and sel my children in captivity either, so I can't completely relate. :D
And burnt my Christmas tree! :p

Seriously tho, my problem is not with Sony, but with Bluray and how they went about it.

My fingers get tired sometimes, going over all the Sony gear I own and love, despite the "Blu" division of the company. Vaio SZ330, CLIE TH55 organiser (yes, I know they don't make it anymore - that's why I bought 3 extra when I heard), Sony Ericsson P900 and K750i, 16 year old Trinitron XBR, noise cancelling earbuds, etc etc

Pet peeves? Continuous attempts to stuff proprietary formats down my pants and the uneasy fear of what else they would attempt if they finally succeeded. :p

Has anyone seen NPD data yet on the PS3 remote control? I'm curious to see the actual sales numbers. Nah just the mention of it being on Amazon's game console accessory lists.

I did see NPD data cited that had some specific console accessories, but it didn't include the PS3 remote.

I agree that any PS3 owner that bought one is likely to use the PS3 as a Blu-ray player, so its an important factor to get info on.

I don't understand his pure Sony is evil spiel either, but then again Sony employees didn't come into my house, beat up my pets, spray paint my walls with Blu-ray slogans and sel my children in captivity either, so I can't completely relate.

This quote is actually quite funny. Reminds me of the good ole days, back in 1998 an associate of mine had Sony employed heavies turn up on his door step. But he was the type that doesn't allow strangers in his house (professional martial arts trainer), so they didn't get what they want.

Yah ... but ... since those players are due to be out June 2007 ... wouldn't this be a wonderful opportunity to display the flagship features and content? Players come out in June, and so does Media that can take advantage of their new features -- with more media to follow in the coming months. That would be a huge selling point for the hardware, no? :confused:

That's what has me confused ... I would have suspected they'd take the opportunity to push the new interactivity and secondary video support. :(

What's more, I wonder what the situation with existing BR deck inventory will be come June. I believe the mandate is for all players manufactured come June.. not sold.

So, if there is excess inventory of the non-PiP capable decks, I assume those will still be for sale. Will manufacturers delay introduction of their new models? Will then sell new models along side old? If so, will they be tempted to downplay the advanced features until old inventory is cleared out? Will the new player be priced higher to differentiate the advanced capability? Will there be a fire sale on old decks? Will this alleged new BDA "Consumer Profile Education" program alluded to show up June 1, 2007?

Will be interesting to see how this is handled.

Seriously tho, my problem is not with Sony, but with Bluray and how they went about it.


But "how they went about it" IS about Sony (et al) and nothing to do with the actual format, its capabilities, and the available content.

People should not enjoy the HD movies from Sony, Disney, Fox, Lionsgate and MGM today because of the way Sony et al went about bringing Blu-ray to market?

Gary

Memory capacity is like RAM and horsepower and resolution. More is NEVER bad. We still haven't seen the 3hour + epics, have we? The longest that is coming to mind is Spartacus on HD-DVD and that was not well received...

What's the old adage? "Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it..."

King Kong on HD DVD: 3hrs 8 min.

Widely considered to be reference PQ.

Doesn't it depend on the particular film; length, uncompressed audio, etc.?

To some degree, yes. But you (perhaps) unintentionally make an interesting point in your post: You specify "uncompressed audio", yet lossless compression delivers the same experience for less bits. Advanced video codecs can deliver the same experience for less bits. True Pip (rather than a parallel encode) can deliver the same experience for less bits. Rinse. Repeat.

So film complexity and length matter, but authoring choices matter just as much.

What are you talking about? Even without an HDMI receiver, the PS3 is one of the best home theater solutions around. It's dead silent, and it's speed and performance are without parallel.

The only downsides are the lack of analog outputs, which are hardly a deal breaker, especially at it's price point (not available on the currently available Tosh A2 or the HD-DVD add-on). Lack of upconversion certainly doesn't equate to a poor HD performance.



While the PS3 may be a great A/V performer* it's not a particularly good home theater solution.

Form factor aside (altho it's amazing how many HT folks attribute serious consideration to aesthetic design points like color, finish, faceplate design, buttons behind doors, etc...), the PS3 can be accommodated in most home theaters, but not easily integrated.

Lack of front panel display, and no significant support for most universal remotes makes it a non-starter for many (most?) folks designing a HT.

It doesn't pass the "One button" test... and I've worked hard to take the "tech" out of our theater so my wife and kids can just pick up the remote and click the activity of their choice. I'm not inclined to special case the PS3.

* Although we still have no assurance that the PS3 will be supported as a BD-Live profile player, altho many expect so.

King Kong on HD DVD: 3hrs 8 min. Widely considered to be reference PQ.

Achieved by: zero extras on the disc and no lossless audio. And who knows, maybe it could've looked even better on a BD50?

Pet peeves? Continuous attempts to stuff proprietary formats down my pants and the uneasy fear of what else they would attempt if they finally succeeded. :p

Oh, I didn't know you hate Microsoft as well... :D

Achieved by: zero extras on the disc and no lossless audio. I haven't seen any three hour and eight minute titles on Bluray yet, extras or not.

And who knows, maybe it could've looked even better on a BD50?Unlikely - once you get to reference, there ain't much room for improvement.

Achieved by: zero extras on the disc and no lossless audio. And who knows, maybe it could've looked even better on a BD50?


"zero extas"?

Except for the U-Control with : cast interviews, behind-the-scenes footage, and storyboards

It doesn't look like it is a true scaler. It looks like they are trying to implement some sort of scaling using the Cell/GPU hardware. Not going too well so far...

While I won't comment on whether it is "going too well, so far", what exactly do you think a "true scaler" is? Is it only valid if it's done on dedicated hardware? If so, a lot of HTPC fans are going to wonder WTF you are smoking, as the software scaling of DVDs has been long considered the best possible-- comparable to offline "hardware" scalers from Faroudja and the like-- and the hardware-augmented (i.e. CPU/GPU) solution is a close second.

I agree that 25-30GB discs can get the job done very well. So why do we need BD-50? It's a serious question.
More interesting and relevant question for HD DVD supporters should be why HD DVD needs TL disc(51gb) which AFAIK isn't compatible with existing specs and thus will not play on existing players.

I have a friend who works for electronic arts and he has kept me up to date on how there development with the PS3 is going there. he hates the playstation kit, he told me yesterday "it always starts out as a terrible dev system but slowly improves till its almost usable"


Did the PS/2 finally reach that? :)

I remember my college buddy going on about the absolutely terrible state of the PS/2 initially. They had to completely rewrite the library routines.

Having written applications (not games) on many different platforms, with all sorts of levels of programmer support, I must say that I find the lousy support systems the most fun, because they are the most challenging and I can show off my skills.

The whining always seems to come from the weak programmers.

Gary

Why is that? If I was Joe Customer and was thinking about getting a high definition player to go along with the HDTV I got for Christmas, I would take that into consideration.

A lot more brands has to translate into a lot more sales. That was one of Sony's problems with Beta. Add the marketing clout of all of the BD manufacturers combined versus just Toshiba in stand-alone players.

I think that you can discount the gamer industry; Microsoft and Sony tend to cancel each other out there and that will end up as a relatively small part of the HD universe.

The question becomes, does 'Joe Customer' have access to the information that most of those players today wont support the interactivity features, etc. I think that's why he suggested they all need to get tossed.

While I won't comment on whether it is "going too well, so far", what exactly do you think a "true scaler" is? Is it only valid if it's done on dedicated hardware? If so, a lot of HTPC fans are going to wonder WTF you are smoking, as the software scaling of DVDs has been long considered the best possible-- comparable to offline "hardware" scalers from Faroudja and the like-- and the hardware-augmented (i.e. CPU/GPU) solution is a close second.

Thank you. I'm no expert, but I've read quite a bit about this. Before I was educated on it, I would've also thought you needed hardware.

So what will the haters have left when the PS3 has a quality scaler?

Oh yeah, that terrible remote that works perfectly and requires no line of site. :rolleyes:

More interesting and relevant question for HD DVD supporters should be why HD DVD needs TL disc(51gb) which AFAIK isn't compatible with existing specs and thus will not play on existing players.
Only needed when MPEG2 encodes are published on HD DVD. :) BTW you don't know they won't play.

Thank you. I'm no expert, but I've read quite a bit about this. Before I was educated on it, I would've also thought you needed hardware.

So what will the haters have left when the PS3 has a quality scaler?

Oh yeah, that terrible remote that works perfectly and requires no line of site. :rolleyes:

This is something I don't understand ... if the hardware scaler has always been there ... why bring it up now? almost 60 days later? Like the engineers found it one day and said, "Oh! look! we did put one in here ... we musta forgot."

IMO, there is no dedicated hardware scaler ... they left it out to reduce costs ... now that there is a big clamouring for it, they're trying to find a way to use a firmware / SDK update that uses the existing hardware to perform the function.

There's just something weird about the whole thing ... Suddenly, a Scaler is Found! Oh, but it only does Horizontal Scaling. :confused:

Hey, can someone please tell me where I can find a sale on a PS3?

Seriously, I'm getting ready to pull the trigger and with all these consoles piling up, collecting dust, that I've heard so much about, there must be some good deals going right now.

What's more, I wonder what the situation with existing BR deck inventory will be come June. I believe the mandate is for all players manufactured come June.. not sold.

So, if there is excess inventory of the non-PiP capable decks, I assume those will still be for sale. Will manufacturers delay introduction of their new models? Will then sell new models along side old? If so, will they be tempted to downplay the advanced features until old inventory is cleared out? Will the new player be priced higher to differentiate the advanced capability? Will there be a fire sale on old decks? Will this alleged new BDA "Consumer Profile Education" program alluded to show up June 1, 2007?

Will be interesting to see how this is handled.

All very good points ... perhaps Interactivity will continue to 'suck' and be wasted space and bandwidth until all BR hardware supports it? They'd have to fire sale the existing hardware I'd think as no one wants to buy something that's limited like that. Unless ... they don't tell anymore ... I'm curious about that Consumer Profile Education thing ... perhaps it will start with, "All the players that were on sale and used to be available for purchase won't do any of [this]. But, the new ones are all okay." :p

This is something I don't understand ... if the hardware scaler has always been there ... why bring it up now? almost 60 days later? Like the engineers found it one day and said, "Oh! look! we did put one in here ... we musta forgot."

IMO, there is no dedicated hardware scaler ... they left it out to reduce costs ... now that there is a big clamouring for it, they're trying to find a way to use a firmware / SDK update that uses the existing hardware to perform the function.

There's just something weird about the whole thing ... Suddenly, a Scaler is Found! Oh, but it only does Horizontal Scaling. :confused:

I'll let some more knowledgeable people field this. If no one does, remind me and I'll find you some links.

More interesting and relevant question for HD DVD supporters should be why HD DVD needs TL disc(51gb) which AFAIK isn't compatible with existing specs and thus will not play on existing players. Well we don't know this yet. Since Toshiba built all the 1st Gen HD DVD players and they are proposing TL51, perhaps they know something we don't? ;)

Its to take away the 50>30 talking point as 51>50.

Maybe to lure a mouse?

Hey, can someone please tell me where I can find a sale on a PS3?

Seriously, I'm getting ready to pull the trigger and with all these consoles piling up, collecting dust, that I've heard so much about, there must be some good deals going right now.

Actually, they're going pretty readily on eBay with a Game (or controller) and Shipping for about $600 ... that's a good deal considering you're saving the TAX and the $60 for the game.

Local stores have them for list ... you might not be able to walk into *any* Target or Bestbuy or Gamestop ... but, one in the area will have them ... *shrug*

I hope you don't want a Wii though ... :p

I'll let some more knowledgeable people field this. If no one does, remind me and I'll find you some links.

Thanks! ;)

Actually, they're going pretty readily on eBay with a Game (or controller) and Shipping for about $600 ... that's a good deal considering you're saving the TAX and the $60 for the game.

Local stores have them for list ... you might not be able to walk into *any* Target or Bestbuy or Gamestop ... but, one in the area will have them ... *shrug*

I hope you don't want a Wii though ... :p

Nope. Don't want a Wii.

No tax in Oregon, either. I prefer not to buy my new electronics from ebay, but thanks.

I'm surprised the Wii isn't in the Top 3 ... :confused:

But ... it shows the PS3 in Stock ... I guess b2b can buy one now. :p


I have yet to see a Wii for sale on Amazon.



.

Form factor aside (altho it's amazing how many HT folks attribute serious consideration to aesthetic design points like color, finish, faceplate design, buttons behind doors, etc...), the PS3 can be accommodated in most home theaters, but not easily integrated.


PS3 form factor is the least game consol-ish yet. Sometimes I do think Sony is missing a great opportunity in putting an existing PS3 in a chassis like their JDM BDZ-V9/7 BD/DVR. Though, speaking of which, I'd say the PS3 has as great a likelyhood of fitting in as either of these with the Panny not far off. They could put in 3.5" drives and include your sacred front display and buttons, though hopefully they'd still hide them behind the rather trick moving translucent faceplate. ;)

Most HT people are looking to HIDE the buttons, dim and/or disable the displays, etc since they're rarely, if ever, used. The PS3 does that excellently (since it doesn't have any). :D


Lack of front panel display, and no significant support for most universal remotes makes it a non-starter for many (most?) folks designing a HT.


Only until Harmony comes out with a new remote with both Bluetooth and IR. And probably a top end model that has RF, as well as the other two. Sony could even beat them to the punch with their own Remote Commander line...

So all Sony needs to do is a put a tiny monochrome display and a rectangular case and you'll concede the PS3 is a great HT platform?


It doesn't pass the "One button" test... and I've worked hard to take the "tech" out of our theater so my wife and kids can just pick up the remote and click the activity of their choice. I'm not inclined to special case the PS3.


Funny... I didn't have to push ANY buttons to watch Flyboys last night. PS3 on standby, put BD in, watch movie (guess I did push play on the remote and pause once for to grab a drink). Then pressed the embossed eject "button" when movie was done, and pressed the embossed power button to turn it off. :shrug: If my wife couldn't figure that out, I'd have larger problems, I think. :o

And of course, that analysis makes no sense, since the PS3 was received as a great BD player, was the least expensive device and was manufactured in far higher volume. So comparing device vs. device while leaving out the PS3 is just an exercise in wishful thinking.

You were doing fine until "And of course". Who is leaving out the PS3? I was lumping every other BD player in the irrevelant category due to the PS3's sales volume and excellence as a player.

So all Sony needs to do is a put a tiny monochrome display and a rectangular case and you'll concede the PS3 is a great HT platform?
All that is stopping me from buying one is the case shape... I'm not sure how I could make it fit and look good on my Bell-O TV stand.

We still haven't seen the 3hour + epics, have we?

From my collection the following i would consider epic length (3 hours or close to). Note all 4 titles are highly regard is very good(reference) transfers/encodes.

Grand Prix, HDDVD (2 hours 56 minutes)
Casino, HDDVD (2 hours 59 minutes)
The Deer Hunter, HDDVD (3 hours 4 minutes)
King Kong, HDDVD (3 hours 8 minutes)

Achieved by: zero extras on the disc

All four of the above have additional special features. Will post details when i get back from work.

Nope. Don't want a Wii.

No tax in Oregon, either. I prefer not to buy my new electronics from ebay, but thanks.


EB Games (both 60Gb and 20GB available)
Rogue Valley Mall
1600 N RIVERSIDE AVE
UNIT 2135
MEDFORD, OR 97501
(541)245-0420

Software Etc. (only 60Gb available)
Rogue Valley Mall
1600 North Riverside Avenue
Suite #2111
Medford, OR 97501
(541)779-4997

Hey, can someone please tell me where I can find a sale on a PS3?

Seriously, I'm getting ready to pull the trigger and with all these consoles piling up, collecting dust, that I've heard so much about, there must be some good deals going right now.

You won't find a sale on the PS3, regardless of quantities due to the fact that dealer cost on them is only a few dollars under retail.

Retailer's basically sell the consoles at no profit. They do this so that they can make money from the games, accessories and service plans that are frequently sold along with the console.

In Japan apparently stock levels got high enough that retailers started to complain to Sony that the retailers were losing money. The longer a box sits unsold the more it costs the retailer due to warehousing costs, eating up floor space, etc. It was bad enough in Japan that Sony dropped the price and cost of the unit to retailers.

I'm sure that the PS3 will sell well, the real question is can the PS3 sell well enough to bury HD-DVD and will it actually beat out the Xbox as the new generation console champ.

PS3 form factor is the least game consol-ish yet.


Most HT people are looking to HIDE the buttons, dim and/or disable the displays, etc since they're rarely, if ever, used. The PS3 does that excellently (since it doesn't have any). :D



I've long thought the damn thing looked like a waffle maker but there certainly is no issue setting it on a shelf rack, though some of us would prefer that it be 19 inch form factor with screw mount flanges for *real* racks. ;)

Truth be told though, any setup worthy of the moniker "Cinema" has all this stuff buried out of sight since those itty bitty led thingies play havoc with our black levels. :rolleyes:

ted

Most HT people are looking to HIDE the buttons, dim and/or disable the displays, etc since they're rarely, if ever, used. The PS3 does that excellently (since it doesn't have any). :D

I rarely if ever look at the display on my DVD player. And, you're right, if anything, the diplays in my rack are distracting.

"sacred front display..."
:D

Its to take away the 50>30 talking point as 51>50. Maybe to lure a mouse?So you are implying that their desires were initially ignored, but are now all of sudden being taken seriously? :)

EB Games (both 60Gb and 20GB available)
Rogue Valley Mall
1600 N RIVERSIDE AVE
UNIT 2135
MEDFORD, OR 97501
(541)245-0420

Software Etc. (only 60Gb available)
Rogue Valley Mall
1600 North Riverside Avenue
Suite #2111
Medford, OR 97501
(541)779-4997


I was asking for sales, but thanks for the legwork. However I was aware of the stocks of those retailers.

Actually I just got off the phone with EB. Wanted to know what they would give me for my XBox. 30 bucks. :( Trade-ins have really taken a hit lately.

Going to have to go the ebay route, get a Sony card and I'll come out alright.

EB Games (both 60Gb and 20GB available)
Rogue Valley Mall
1600 N RIVERSIDE AVE
UNIT 2135
MEDFORD, OR 97501
(541)245-0420

Software Etc. (only 60Gb available)
Rogue Valley Mall
1600 North Riverside Avenue
Suite #2111
Medford, OR 97501
(541)779-4997

Hey! Your first post! I just realized that.

I'm honored for the second time in a week or so.

Welcome and thanks again for the legwork.

I'm sure that the PS3 will sell well, the real question is can the PS3 sell well enough to bury HD-DVD and will it actually beat out the Xbox as the new generation console champ.

1. Yes ;)

2. Maybe, maybe not. Not for awhile, at least, anyway.

Blu-Ray has 25 titles to be released in February according to Highdefdigest. HD DVD has seven. Blu-Ray has this kind of ratio for several months now... hence Blu-Ray's high sales compared to HD DVD. Flooding the market with releases is definately a boon to Blu-Ray...

However, sales numbers on each neutral title are much more interesting...

~Alan

This is what I don't get. If this next generation war is truely about the movies, like a lot of HD-DVD people claim it to be, then why do you support a format that releases almost no movies?

I'm in this for the movies, and since I can get almost all of them on Blu-Ray, that's the one I support.

From my collection the following i would consider epic length (3 hours or close to). Note all 4 titles are highly regard is very good(reference) transfers/encodes.

Grand Prix, HDDVD (2 hours 56 minutes)
Casino, HDDVD (2 hours 59 minutes)
The Deer Hunter, HDDVD (3 hours 4 minutes)
King Kong, HDDVD (3 hours 8 minutes)



All four of the above have additional special features. Will post details when i get back from work.
Don't forget Troy! Clocks in at 2h:43m including 3 audio tracks, one of which is TrueHD, IME, and plenty of extras!

While I won't comment on whether it is "going too well, so far", what exactly do you think a "true scaler" is? Is it only valid if it's done on dedicated hardware? If so, a lot of HTPC fans are going to wonder WTF you are smoking, as the software scaling of DVDs has been long considered the best possible-- comparable to offline "hardware" scalers from Faroudja and the like-- and the hardware-augmented (i.e. CPU/GPU) solution is a close second.
A dedicated scaler is completely different to using the CPU to scale.

Yes, a CPU is hardware. But since when is a software scaler called a hardware scaler just because the software runs on a CPU?

And, BTW, I'm not knocking Intel here, archibael, but no software scaler I've ever run across can match dedicated hardware scalers like the Gennum or Realta.

More interesting and relevant question for HD DVD supporters should be why HD DVD needs TL disc(51gb) which AFAIK isn't compatible with existing specs and thus will not play on existing players.
"AFAIK"? I think the point is you don't, neither do most people here right now, save a few...

There are 3 players for which it will be a little more work and there are 6 for which it will be easier. Don't forget that all players will player the triple layer, single sided DVD/HD DVD combo discs, so don't think it's an impossible stretch.

Financial articles from Bloomberg regarding videogame consoles...

Microsoft (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601204&sid=aSTGicFTNDr4&refer=technology)


Sony (http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aAQ16Hzzwzuc&refer=home)

So from those articles it appears Microsoft is looking to be profitable on the Games Division even it costs them unit sales. Sounds like MS will be less aggressive with their money, at least for most of the year leading up to holidays

The company also is backing off of costly promotions and marketing programs, Moore said. That may mean fewer sales because Microsoft won't be ``driving the sale at any cost,'' he said.

It's a reversal of a decision last April to increase spending to get more Xbox machines into stores, a move that's cutting profit this fiscal year.

``That was the right decision then, but it would be the wrong decision now,'' Moore said. ``We'd better be profitable next year. It was a commitment we made, and I'm not going to back down on that decision.''


Sony on the other hand is uber aggressive with it's money from other divisions when it comes to sacrificing the PS3 (shorterm) in the cause of blu-ray

Wii Wins

The game division, Sony's second-largest by revenue, probably lost 50.9 billion yen during the quarter, compared with a profit of 67.8 billion yen a year earlier, after sales fell 7 percent, according to the Bloomberg survey.

After botching the PS3's debut with production delays and cutting the price to compete against cheaper Wii and Xbox players, Sony will probably lose a record 191.9 billion yen from games this fiscal year, compared with profit of 8.7 billion yen the previous year, according to the Bloomberg survey.


The speculation seems to be that MS will wait to make it's push at the holidays

``Sony has just lost their way,'' he said. ``These are the scenarios Microsoft lives for. You are going to see a huge push at holiday '07 because these guys see there is blood in the water.''

So what will the haters have left when the PS3 has a quality scaler?Er: "About Time..."

Does anyone else find it somewhat amusing that the "Just wait" thing applies to the PS3, not just Bluray? :p

BTW - I think your question should read: "So what will the opponents have left when IF the PS3 ever has a quality scaler?"

I haven't seen any three hour and eight minute titles on Bluray yet, extras or not.


Kingdom of Heaven (director's cut): 194 min
Pearl Harbor: 183 min

This is what I don't get. If this next generation war is truely about the movies, like a lot of HD-DVD people claim it to be, then why do you support a format that releases almost no movies?

I'm in this for the movies, and since I can get almost all of them on Blu-Ray, that's the one I support.


That answer is easy for me, not everyone is talking just about blockbuster movies ten years old or less. Sony and Fox have made a pretty weak showing of releasing catalog titles compared to Universal and Warner on DVD. It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to figure out they are even less-likely to bother on Blu-ray.

The lower cost and hence risk of putting out HD-DVD titles will make it more feasible for studios to go HD with titles that sell in the thousands and not hundred thousands. Likewise, like it did the adult films market, it's going to attract smaller indie labels for the same reason.

I could give a flying-fish about Casino Royale, Spiderman, and Pirates Of The Caribbean.

However, The Fog, Dr. Strangelove, Vertigo, Psycho, Elephant Man, Mulholand Drive, Roddin Hood, Forbidden Planet are of much greater interest to me.

"Cineophiles" who seriously collect films, know which companies have catered to their tastes and released great-looking, affordable, and well produced DVDs of important films, and which ones have not. We also know that "Technophiles" are more gaga for latest in engineering specs, and jump-ship when the next "big thing" comes along.

Most of my collector friends have between 2000 and 5000 DVDs, we buy a lot of discs.

I can't tell you how many peoples hopes went out the window when Sony/Fox acquired MGM's holding, because we knew it was only for films like the Bond franchise, and that they would abandon MGM's practice of releasing great catalog titles on a regular basis; so far that's just what's going down; MGM's previous WORLD FILMS, MIDNIGHT MOVIE, and AVANT GARDE lines have all been effectively dumped.

BTW - I think your question should read: "So what will the opponents have left when IF the PS3 ever has a quality scaler?"

Noted

This is something I don't understand ... if the hardware scaler has always been there ... why bring it up now? almost 60 days later? Like the engineers found it one day and said, "Oh! look! we did put one in here ... we musta forgot."

IMO, there is no dedicated hardware scaler ... they left it out to reduce costs ... now that there is a big clamouring for it, they're trying to find a way to use a firmware / SDK update that uses the existing hardware to perform the function.

There's just something weird about the whole thing ... Suddenly, a Scaler is Found! Oh, but it only does Horizontal Scaling. :confused:My guess is that Sony wanted developers to work in native HD resolutions, not cheat their way to HD like some of their xbox rivals. It turns out it's more difficult to get games running well in 1080p than they expected, so they're now giving developers a helping hand by offering some upscaling ability without doing all the work for them.

More interesting and relevant question for HD DVD supporters should be why HD DVD needs TL disc(51gb) which AFAIK isn't compatible with existing specs and thus will not play on existing players.

I've been consistent on this from the announcement of TL-51. I don't believe it is needed from a technical perspective, however it is very important from a marketing perspective.

I read through the CES Blu-Ray literature again recently. The message is very consistent regarding disc size. Blu-Ray is better because movies have 50GB of disc space. There is no mention that such a thing as BD-25 even exists. The reality is that 106 out of the 131 BD titles reviewed on highdefdigest are BD-25.

So my question still stands......Why do we need BD-50?

You should really be fair and mention BD200 whenever you mention TL51. They're both proven to the same point (prototype shown and not yet a part of their spec). If anything BD200 has a long lead, having been shown in August...

So my question still stands......Why do we need BD-50?

Lossless audio, because some dude in a magazine said that it sounds better, and I think it does too, because 50 > 30. How could that be wrong? I mean, it must sound better, right? :rolleyes:

If anything BD200 has a long lead, having been shown in August...

True, but BD has shown that it needs a much longer lead time to get things done. Just look at interactivity. :)

So my question still stands......Why do we need BD-50?

Because "this one goes to 11" has been replaced by "this one goes to 50".

"Cineophiles" who seriously collect films, know which companies have catered to their tastes and released great-looking, affordable, and well produced DVDs of important films, and which ones have not. We also know that "Technophiles" are more gaga for latest in engineering specs, and jump-ship when the next "big thing" comes along.


Well, if by this you are saying that Universal is the only company that releases those older titles then I will have to call bull.

Considering the list of movies you stated, The Fog is MGM, Dr. Strangelove is Sony, so you won't ever see those. Elephant Man, Robin Hood, and Forbidden Planet are Paramount and Warner, so you have just as much chance as us getting them (less now, considering like you said they won't sell nearly as many, so why sell to the product with the smaller consumer base). The only three you will get that we can't is Psycho, Vertigo, and Muholland Drive, which are all excellent movies, but right now I wouldn't hold my breath for them if Universal won't even give release dates for your blockbusters.

Well, if by this you are saying that Universal is the only company that releases those older titles then I will have to call bull.

Considering the list of movies you stated, The Fog is MGM, Dr. Strangelove is Sony, so you won't ever see those. Elephant Man, Robin Hood, and Forbidden Planet are Paramount and Warner, so you have just as much chance as us getting them (less now, considering like you said they won't sell nearly as many, so why sell to the product with the smaller consumer base). The only three you will get that we can't is Psycho, Vertigo, and Muholland Drive, which are all excellent movies, but right now I wouldn't hold my breath for them if Universal won't even give release dates for your blockbusters.

It's funny you should say that since Forbidden Planet and Robin Hood are already out on HD-DVD (along with Mutiny on the Bounty and several other classics). Were you not aware of this?

I would have to say that BR releases to date are heavily slanted towards Gen X and Y while HD-DVD releases seem to have been more slanted towards "movie buffs".

It's funny you should say that since Forbidden Planet and Robin Hood are already out on HD-DVD (along with Mutiny on the Bounty and several other classics). Were you not aware of this?

I would have to say that BR releases to date are heavily slanted towards Gen X and Y while HD-DVD releases seem to have been more slanted towards "movie buffs".

IMO, that's because BD wants to sell consoles.

The hardcore have already bought in. The next level down (though well above J6P,) I believe are more interested in new releases that are going to make their fancy TVs shine. When I bought my first DVD player, I bought mostly new blockbusters at first. Ones that I hadn't yet seen. It's easier to justify the title expenditure when you haven't already seen the film.

Of course it's no secret that BD has this category in the bag for this year, at least.

JMHO

It's funny you should say that since Forbidden Planet and Robin Hood are already out on HD-DVD (along with Mutiny on the Bounty and several other classics). Were you not aware of this?I was aware of this, but Warner has also mentioned that they plan to catch up this year. I do wonder how motivated they will be if sales for any of those haven't been real high though. "Casablanca" might be the highest of the classics so far although my guess is that "The Wizard of Oz" will probably end up at or near the top for best selling title among the classics.

--Darin

This is something I don't understand ... if the hardware scaler has always been there ... why bring it up now? almost 60 days later? Like the engineers found it one day and said, "Oh! look! we did put one in here ... we musta forgot."

IMO, there is no dedicated hardware scaler ... they left it out to reduce costs ... now that there is a big clamouring for it, they're trying to find a way to use a firmware / SDK update that uses the existing hardware to perform the function.

There's just something weird about the whole thing ... Suddenly, a Scaler is Found! Oh, but it only does Horizontal Scaling. :confused:

The Sony engineers know very well what the features and capabilities are of the PS3. However, not all of them were enabled from launch due to the simple reason that they were not ready at launch. Sony could have delayed launch to refine the features, but you get to a point where you consider it good enough and go for launch.

Scaler in HW or not, I expect improvements in all aspects of the PS3 as time goes on due to updated firmware. (As was seen when 480i rendering of old games was updated to support 480p.)

Maybe the 360 will have better scaling due to its hardware chip, but for now, we don't know. We'll see what features are added in the upcoming firmware updates from Sony, combined with updated SDKs. As mentioned, I expect goodness.

(That said, didn't this issue start with supporting old TV's that didn't support 720P? Which is an issue which will go away by itself in the not too distant future anyway...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty
Its to take away the 50>30 talking point as 51>50. Maybe to lure a mouse?

So you are implying that their desires were initially ignored, but are now all of sudden being taken seriously? Amirm has often told the story that TL45 was offered as a lure for the mouse, but the bait was ignored so TL45 was never pursued. Perhaps HD DVD saw the mouse looking around again and wanted to grab its attention, first with attach rates then trial of VC-1 now with capacity possibly 51GB >50GB ?

I dunno, you're the insider.....care to comment further?

Sony could have delayed launch to refine the features, but you get to a point where you consider it good enough and go for launch.


"good enough" - an ironic choice of phrases :)

That answer is easy for me, not everyone is talking just about blockbuster movies ten years old or less. Sony and Fox have made a pretty weak showing of releasing catalog titles compared to Universal and Warner on DVD. It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to figure out they are even less-likely to bother on Blu-ray.

The lower cost and hence risk of putting out HD-DVD titles will make it more feasible for studios to go HD with titles that sell in the thousands and not hundred thousands. Likewise, like it did the adult films market, it's going to attract smaller indie labels for the same reason.

I could give a flying-fish about Casino Royale, Spiderman, and Pirates Of The Caribbean.

However, The Fog, Dr. Strangelove, Vertigo, Psycho, Elephant Man, Mulholand Drive, Roddin Hood, Forbidden Planet are of much greater interest to me.

"Cineophiles" who seriously collect films, know which companies have catered to their tastes and released great-looking, affordable, and well produced DVDs of important films, and which ones have not. We also know that "Technophiles" are more gaga for latest in engineering specs, and jump-ship when the next "big thing" comes along.

Most of my collector friends have between 2000 and 5000 DVDs, we buy a lot of discs.

I can't tell you how many peoples hopes went out the window when Sony/Fox acquired MGM's holding, because we knew it was only for films like the Bond franchise, and that they would abandon MGM's practice of releasing great catalog titles on a regular basis; so far that's just what's going down; MGM's previous WORLD FILMS, MIDNIGHT MOVIE, and AVANT GARDE lines have all been effectively dumped. I could not agree with you more. I think it will be easier to make a profit on lower sales volume release with HD DVD than Blu-ray and therefore we would see eventually more catalogs releases in red cases than blue ones.

A dedicated scaler is completely different to using the CPU to scale.


But not always superior. Ask around in the HTPC section.


Yes, a CPU is hardware. But since when is a software scaler called a hardware scaler just because the software runs on a CPU?


I don't know why they're referring to it as "hardware scaling". Perhaps there's dedicated hardware on chip which is accessed by these new APIs.


And, BTW, I'm not knocking Intel here, archibael, but no software scaler I've ever run across can match dedicated hardware scalers like the Gennum or Realta.

No comment, as I'm in no position to evaluate those. And it couldn't possibly be a knock on Intel, FYI: the scaling solutions that everyone raves about in the HTPC forum are largely written by open-source video-quality fanatics: they deserve the credit, not our hardware.

Well, if by this you are saying that Universal is the only company that releases those older titles then I will have to call bull.

Considering the list of movies you stated, The Fog is MGM, Dr. Strangelove is Sony, so you won't ever see those. Elephant Man, Robin Hood, and Forbidden Planet are Paramount and Warner, so you have just as much chance as us getting them (less now, considering like you said they won't sell nearly as many, so why sell to the product with the smaller consumer base). The only three you will get that we can't is Psycho, Vertigo, and Muholland Drive, which are all excellent movies, but right now I wouldn't hold my breath for them if Universal won't even give release dates for your blockbusters.

Well The Fog (79) is Warner as is Dr. Strangelove (already announced). Also as was mentioned Robbin Hood and Forbidden Planet are out (HD-DVD only). Elephant Man and The Fog are out (HD-DVD only) in Europe, and can be easily obtained (that region-free thingy). So with the exception of the Universal titles (which I mention because I've heard they're in the works) I can have these now.

Contrary to what you think, I have no problem if they all go BD too.

As is usual with everything BD, there's mostly talk about what's probably going to be rather than what is here and now. It's an good gesture to those with my tastes that these catalog titles are out in HD-DVD and looking great, why would I then turn toward BD instead? It also does nothing to dispel the notion, that it will be easier and cheaper for independents to release on HD rather than BD.

"AFAIK"? I think the point is you don't, neither do most people here right now, save a few...

There are 3 players for which it will be a little more work and there are 6 for which it will be easier. Don't forget that all players will player the triple layer, single sided DVD/HD DVD combo discs, so don't think it's an impossible stretch.

Don't also forget the 1.5x spin rate requirement for the (proposed) TL-51. If the drive can only do 1.0x, and the movie is bandwidth-mastered for 1.5x, it may not play too well. :)

My guess is that Sony wanted developers to work in native HD resolutions, not cheat their way to HD like some of their xbox rivals. It turns out it's more difficult to get games running well in 1080p than they expected, so they're now giving developers a helping hand by offering some upscaling ability without doing all the work for them.

Uhm ... Xbox supports native resolutions of 720p and 1080i on games ... and it has a scaler ... ?

Sorry ... but I'm just lost on what you're getting at. It seems to me that you're saying:

"Sony wants developers to hard code HD resolutions into their games instead of making it easy on them."

... yet ...

Sony makes up their subsidy by selling games, right? And ... developers are more likely to develop games on systems who have easier-to-use toolkits ... no?

So why would Sony make it purposely difficult for a developer to produce content? And now come out and say, "Well, I guess we'll have to help you do your jobs now."

It just makes little sense to me ... I would think Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo/etc would want to make it *easier* on developers ... not harder ...

You should really be fair and mention BD200 whenever you mention TL51. They're both proven to the same point (prototype shown and not yet a part of their spec). If anything BD200 has a long lead, having been shown in August...

Except that we know BD200 requires a modified optical pickup ... so we know it won't work on current gen players. The HD-DVD folks still have some hope it would work on existing gear -- time will tell.

But ... imo ... we're not in a place that requires 50GB of Capacity -- or 51 -- or 200 ... at least not yet.

That said, what's the theoretical limit for layers on HD-DVD? I thought it was some huge number like 10 or 12? :confused:

The Sony engineers know very well what the features and capabilities are of the PS3. However, not all of them were enabled from launch due to the simple reason that they were not ready at launch. Sony could have delayed launch to refine the features, but you get to a point where you consider it good enough and go for launch.

Scaler in HW or not, I expect improvements in all aspects of the PS3 as time goes on due to updated firmware. (As was seen when 480i rendering of old games was updated to support 480p.)

Maybe the 360 will have better scaling due to its hardware chip, but for now, we don't know. We'll see what features are added in the upcoming firmware updates from Sony, combined with updated SDKs. As mentioned, I expect goodness.

(That said, didn't this issue start with supporting old TV's that didn't support 720P? Which is an issue which will go away by itself in the not too distant future anyway...)

Right ... so buying a PS3 today, is paying $600 for something that's just "good enough" and not really ready. Why would I want to do that? Sure ... I can pay $600 for potential today ... or, I can wait a year for the bugs to be ironed out, have some of that 'potential' unlocked, and probably spend less money on it ... no?

Most people keep TV's for awhile ... so I would hate to think the solution from Sony's perspective is to say, "Don't worry about a scaler, those people will just have to buy new HDTV's".

I expect the PS3 to have a lot of great things unlocked as well ... but the question becomes ... when? How long did we have to wait for networking on PS2? How about the HDD? If it's going to take 3 years to get these 'great' features on the PS3, I'm way way way better off waiting for PS3v2 and the price cuts. ;)

Oh, I didn't know you hate Microsoft as well... :D
Perhaps he was so busy spewing invective against Sony that he had no time to notice other companies' actions. Someone should alert the MS chaps that they are about to lose a staunch HD-dvd supporter.

Hey, can someone please tell me where I can find a sale on a PS3?

Seriously, I'm getting ready to pull the trigger and with all these consoles piling up, collecting dust, that I've heard so much about, there must be some good deals going right now.
I feel the same way. Come on, someone fork over a PS3 at discount. If there are 300K of them lying on floors, someone should offer a friggin sale already.

Isn't Anybody fed up with the poor remote yet? :D

That remote is scandalous is what it is. No one should be forced to live with it. I will take the PS3 off some suffering soul's hands for 400, ah screw it, make it 300.

Uhm ... Xbox supports native resolutions of 720p and 1080i on games ... and it has a scaler ... ?

Sorry ... but I'm just lost on what you're getting at. It seems to me that you're saying:

"Sony wants developers to hard code HD resolutions into their games instead of making it easy on them."

... yet ...

Sony makes up their subsidy by selling games, right? And ... developers are more likely to develop games on systems who have easier-to-use toolkits ... no?

So why would Sony make it purposely difficult for a developer to produce content? And now come out and say, "Well, I guess we'll have to help you do your jobs now."

It just makes little sense to me ... I would think Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo/etc would want to make it *easier* on developers ... not harder ...

Xbox only supports native 720p, 1080i output is being upscaled in the xbox. On the other hand PS3 has mostly 720p games, I'm not sure if Resistance is720p or 1080i.

In any event the OPs only purpose with this seemed to be trying to get a jab in on the Xbox.

As is usual with everything BD, there's mostly talk about what's probably going to be rather than what is here and now.Like 51 GB?

And what a bizarre argument anyway: I should apparently sacrifice 20 GB of capacity and 18 Mbps of bandwidth just because HD-DVD PiP is here now?

You should really be fair and mention BD200 whenever you mention TL51. They're both proven to the same point (prototype shown and not yet a part of their spec). If anything BD200 has a long lead, having been shown in August...

BD-200?........are BD-50s not big enough either?

Right ... so buying a PS3 today, is paying $600 for something that's just "good enough" and not really ready. Why would I want to do that? Sure ... I can pay $600 for potential today ... or, I can wait a year for the bugs to be ironed out, have some of that 'potential' unlocked, and probably spend less money on it ... no?

Most people keep TV's for awhile ... so I would hate to think the solution from Sony's perspective is to say, "Don't worry about a scaler, those people will just have to buy new HDTV's".

You don't have to buy another PS3 to get bugs worked out.

The point is, it's a highly respected player. Get one and start watching movies. Firmware updates will come... FOR FREE... and it will only get better.

BD-200?........are BD-50s not big enough either?

I really hope that was sarcastic.

The poster was just mentioning that TL51 is in the same position as the BD200, vapourware.

Talk,

Not sure if you saw this question. Could you shed some light on this for us? It looks like some new Warner HD-DVD releases are being delayed in NA (but not in the EU). It looks like the hold up is BDJ on the Blu-Ray side and wanting to complete the BD versions before they launch the HD-DVD versions. It runs contrary to normal business practice to hold back something that you can recognize revenue on earlier.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9645477#post9645477

I really hope that was sarcastic.

The poster was just mentioning that TL51 is in the same position as the BD200, vapourware.

Talk in recent posts did not present BD-200s as vapourware at all. Are you suggesting they're vapourware?

Talk in recent posts did not present BD-200s as vapourware at all. Are you suggesting they're vapourware?

Can I buy one in a store, no.

So, yes it is vapourware.

Before you rejoice and say that BD fans are admitting defeat, I will add that TL51 is more vapourware than BD200, as TL51 does not even have a production sample yet.

Xbox only supports native 720p, 1080i output is being upscaled in the xbox. On the other hand PS3 has mostly 720p games, I'm not sure if Resistance is720p or 1080i.

In any event the OPs only purpose with this seemed to be trying to get a jab in on the Xbox.

Resistance is 720p ... it was supposed to be 1080p, but IIRC, they had framerate issues at that resolution.

It looks like Motorstorm might turn out the same. :(

Talk,

Not sure if you saw this question. Could you shed some light on this for us? It looks like some new Warner HD-DVD releases are being delayed in NA (but not in the EU). It looks like the hold up is BDJ on the Blu-Ray side and wanting to complete the BD versions before they launch the HD-DVD versions. It runs contrary to normal business practice to hold back something that you can recognize revenue on earlier.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9645477#post9645477

If Warner is delaying all releases to do Total HD then it sort of makes sense that they don't want to release until BDJ is ready.

If these releases are going to continue to be seperate BD and HD-DVD releases then it makes little sense other than them shifting away from HD-DVD.

Resistance is 720p ... it was supposed to be 1080p, but IIRC, they had framerate issues at that resolution.

It looks like Motorstorm might turn out the same. :(

I wouldn't be surprised if they have that problem with most games if not all of them.

You don't have to buy another PS3 to get bugs worked out.

The point is, it's a highly respected player. Get one and start watching movies. Firmware updates will come... FOR FREE... and it will only get better.

Exactly ... they will come ... for FREE ... later ... it will get better ... later ... I have no doubt. I'm not talking about my specific case, but speaking for someone that doesn't have one, it can be looked at two ways:

(1) Pay $600 now for Potential ... the stuff that is really cool will come later for free. Sony promises. Really, they do.

(2) Pay $400 or $500 later for something that already has that potential unlocked. No need to bank on promises. It's already there.

*shrug*

If Warner is delaying all releases to do Total HD then it sort of makes sense that they don't want to release until BDJ is ready.

If these releases are going to continue to be seperate BD and HD-DVD releases then it makes little sense other than them shifting away from HD-DVD.

Perhaps there is pressure to be fair to both formats and not release HD-DVDs in NA until the BD versions are ready to go to market as well?

Is there a canonical list of arguments of the plus and minuses of Blu-ray vs HD-DVDanywhere in this thread? I've not seen anything like it in a while. If not here, then maybe somewhere else?

Cheers,
Randy Stewart

Can I buy one in a store, no.

So, yes it is vapourware.

Before you rejoice and say that BD fans are admitting defeat, I will add that TL51 is more vapourware than BD200, as TL51 does not even have a production sample yet.

Can I buy a BD-Live enabled player in the store? Nope ... soo ... vapourware?
Can I buy a BD1.1 enabled player in the store now? Nope ... soo ... vapourware?

I don't know if that's the right stance ... I full expect BD-Live to be made available, as I do BD1.1 ... whether studios take advantage of it is a whole other discussion, however.

As for TL51 ... who knows what's going to happen ... as I understand, they have lab tests of the discs -- which, imo, is no different than the prototype BD200's that were shown. I can show you a platter (hundreds of them) and can tell you they have a capacity of 500GB ... without a player to run them on ... it's all ... well ... irrelevent, no? TL51 might not play in current gen. BD200 certainly does not.

But ... does it really matter? As codecs improve, I just don't see a need today for more than 30GB. Sure ... 50 > 30 ... fine ... but if we're just going to fill it up with a second encode so we can save we have PiP ... that just seems silly. The same thing with game developers -- one recently said BD50 was not enough (they couldn't get enough CGI movies on the disc). If we're just going to fill it with 1's and 0's to say it was used ... *shrug*

Can I buy one in a store, no.

So, yes it is vapourware.

Before you rejoice and say that BD fans are admitting defeat, I will add that TL51 is more vapourware than BD200, as TL51 does not even have a production sample yet.

Please, I'm not going to rejoice over something so silly. Let me highlight the silliness.

Are there any titles you're looking forward to seeing released on BD-200?

Please, I'm not going to rejoice over something so silly. Let me highlight the silliness.

Are there any titles you're looking forward to seeing released on BD-200?

No, are there any you are looking forward to in TL51?

Perhaps there is pressure to be fair to both formats and not release HD-DVDs in NA until the BD versions are ready to go to market as well?

But since HD-DVD is Region Free ... does that really matter? They'll just be imported in. That's what I'm going to do when Matrix and Harry Potter are released. *shrug*

Like 51 GB?

And what a bizarre argument anyway: I should apparently sacrifice 20 GB of capacity and 18 Mbps of bandwidth just because HD-DVD PiP is here now?

Are you buying BD-25s (the clear majority of all BD titles available)? And if so, why are you willing to sacrifice 25GB of disc space?

No, are there any you are looking forward to in TL51?

Not me ... considering we already have reference discs available with features of 3+ hours in length ... I think DL30 is just fine. ;)

Exactly ... they will come ... for FREE ... later ... it will get better ... later ... I have no doubt. I'm not talking about my specific case, but speaking for someone that doesn't have one, it can be looked at two ways:

(1) Pay $600 now for Potential ... the stuff that is really cool will come later for free. Sony promises. Really, they do.

(2) Pay $400 or $500 later for something that already has that potential unlocked. No need to bank on promises. It's already there.

*shrug*

Up to you. I bought one for Blu-ray movie playback a couple of days ago. It rocks. Now. Played a couple of games. Very nice. I'll enjoy movies and games WHILE they add new features.

It is not "potential". It is now...

What specific features that are missing are you waiting for?

Up to you. I bought one for Blu-ray movie playback a couple of days ago. It rocks. Now. Played a couple of games. Very nice. I'll enjoy movies and games WHILE they add new features.

It is not "potential". It is now...

What specific features that are missing are you waiting for?

Other than wanting it to be BD1.1 / Live compliant, I would really like for it to upscale SD-DVD's so I can get rid of one more box. That's pretty huge for me.

Games are eh ... most of the stuff avaialble on PS3 I've already played on Xbox 360, with a better experience (ie: Rumble) ... so gaming isn't huge to me.

Pretty much, the lack of upscaling is what makes me want to sell mine. But the eBay prices suck now. It seems to be a deal-breaker for others as well. :(

Exactly ... they will come ... for FREE ... later ... it will get better ... later ... I have no doubt. I'm not talking about my specific case, but speaking for someone that doesn't have one, it can be looked at two ways:

(1) Pay $600 now for Potential ... the stuff that is really cool will come later for free. Sony promises. Really, they do.

(2) Pay $400 or $500 later for something that already has that potential unlocked. No need to bank on promises. It's already there.

*shrug*


I might add that when all these promises of BD evolving into something beyond our wildest Hi-def dreams, for some reason play on the assumption that HD-DVD has stopped maximizing it's potential.

You know a lot of how any film looks or sounds on disc depends equally on what studios use to master it from and how much care they take, and money they spend anyway.

There are plenty of so-so DVDs of studio films that ought to look a lot better than they do. I promise there will be plenty of mediocre HD/BD titles too.

There are plenty of so-so DVDs of studio films that ought to look a lot better than they do. I promise there will be plenty of mediocre HD/BD titles too.

Which should worry those who dream of outright victory for their format of choice, because continued competition will tend to minimize the number of mediocre releases for both, while a single format will likely result in more of them. Frankly, I'd be perfectly happy if BD ended up being used primarily for sure-bet blockbuster releases, and the economics of HD-DVD continued to make it appealing for very high quality transfers of catalog, independent, and relatively low-volume region-free import titles.......fast food and a gourmet feast, if you will.

Exactly ... they will come ... for FREE ... later ... it will get better ... later ... I have no doubt. I'm not talking about my specific case, but speaking for someone that doesn't have one, it can be looked at two ways:

(1) Pay $600 now for Potential ... the stuff that is really cool will come later for free. Sony promises. Really, they do.

(2) Pay $400 or $500 later for something that already has that potential unlocked. No need to bank on promises. It's already there.

*shrug*

There is logic in that, sure, if you don't care to watch HD now. Of course.

In the meantime the PS3 is a highly acclaimed machine that will play BDs with a quality unrivaled. It wil also play video games, again, with a quality unrivaled.

The only thing it doesn't do extremely well, right now, is upscale SD. Many displays can do as good a job as a lot of unconverting DVD players no, including mine so I could give a rat's a$$. BUT, it will be able to do that soon.

You can argue your points and I will accept them.

My point is, it is already a great machine, possibly the best, according to S&V and an incredible value!...

...AND it will only get better.

Other than wanting it to be BD1.1 / Live compliant, I would really like for it to upscale SD-DVD's so I can get rid of one more box. That's pretty huge for me.

Games are eh ... most of the stuff avaialble on PS3 I've already played on Xbox 360, with a better experience (ie: Rumble) ... so gaming isn't huge to me.

Pretty much, the lack of upscaling is what makes me want to sell mine. But the eBay prices suck now. It seems to be a deal-breaker for others as well. :(

You mean you HAVE an upscaling player and you're complaining? You HAVE a PS3 and can't wait 'til the March update?

Gee, I'd hate to be in your shoes.

The reality is that 106 out of the 131 BD titles reviewed on highdefdigest are BD-25.
So the average BD disc is 29.77 GB :p

Which should worry those who dream of outright victory for their format of choice, because continued competition will tend to minimize the number of mediocre releases for both, while a single format will likely result in more of them. Frankly, I'd be perfectly happy if BD ended up being used primarily for sure-bet blockbuster releases, and the economics of HD-DVD continued to make it appealing for very high quality transfers of catalog, independent, and relatively low-volume region-free import titles.......fast food and a gourmet feast, if you will.

I'm not so sure about this. I think the competition to make it look better than DVD could keep them honest.

Lack of front panel display, and no significant support for most universal remotes makes it a non-starter for many (most?) folks designing a HT.

only the uninteligent ones that don't do their research but listen to HD DVD fan boys. Do some research on PS3 and IR

Except that we know BD200 requires a modified optical pickup ... so we know it won't work on current gen players. The HD-DVD folks still have some hope it would work on existing gear -- time will tell.

yup hope is all they have, not rational hope, but the irrational kind. The kind where you are looking at Ferraris because even though you just spent your last 1$ it was on a lottery and you just know you will win and be a millionaire the next morning.

It wil also play video games, again, with a quality unrivaled.

Uhhh... no. Online support, title selection, and 1080i-only HDTV support are all clearly superior with the 360 when compared to the PS3. Virtually every title released on both platforms has received a higher rating on the 360 version. Many of the dual-platform titles lack the online support on the PS3 but have it on the 360. Many developers (who are working with both platforms) have said that the two are virtually equal, with the edge going to the 360 because of the better development tools and better use of RAM.

I'm sure it's a fine game console, but let's not bandy about terms like "unrivaled quality" when that's clearly not the case.

I'm not so sure about this. I think the competition to make it look better than DVD could keep them honest.

I think you misread my post. Competition = good for the consumer.

Uhhh... no. Online support, title selection, and 1080i-only HDTV support are all clearly superior with the 360 when compared to the PS3. Virtually every title released on both platforms has received a higher rating on the 360 version. Many of the dual-platform titles lack the online support on the PS3 but have it on the 360. Many developers (who are working with both platforms) have said that the two are virtually equal, with the edge going to the 360 because of the better development tools and better use of RAM.

I'm sure it's a fine game console, but let's not bandy about terms like "unrivaled quality" when that's clearly not the case.

You can't tell me what to do. I like to bandy. You like to bandy. You don't have to bandy, but you know yo want to bandy. Everyone bandies. I just bandied and I'm ready to to bandy again.

O.K., statement retracted.

I thought I read that some games were looking better on the PS3. After a little "research," it appears that may be incorrect.

I think you misread my post. Competition = good for the consumer.

No, I read you right.

In fact, I am on record as believing that the war has been a good thing for all the reasons you stated and more.

However I'm not sure the time hasn't come for it to end. Most of the good may have been done. In the meantime, Netflix and BB are having trouble finding shelf space with 2 formats. And I fear the war, if continued much longer could be detrimental to HD optical in general; a sentiment that has been felt here at AVS since before the war really began.

No, what I was saying was in relation to the larger war; the war with SD. If the winner doesn't work hard to continue to make quality transfers, there could be little reason to upgrade to HD optical. Thus HD optical could fade in favor of plain ol' DVD; the real opponent in this war. Now who among us wants that?

However I'm not sure the time hasn't come for it to end. Most of the good may have been done.

If that were the case, I'd already have a BD player, but the current crop feature pitifully incomplete feature-sets, were relegated to obsolescence upon release....and I refuse to purchase a gaming console with a single stand-out title. Hopefully this fall, something will be available that's fully compliant with BD Live, has decent upscaling in hardware, and is available in something other than shiny black thermoplastic. Of course, by then, there may also be more reasons to purchase a PS3 for gaming.

If that were the case, I'd already have a BD player, but the current crop feature pitifully incomplete feature-sets, were relegated to obsolescence upon release....and I refuse to purchase a gaming console with a single stand-out title. Hopefully this fall, something will be available that's fully compliant with BD Live, has decent upscaling in hardware, and is available in something other than shiny black thermoplastic. Of course, by then, there may also be more reasons to purchase a PS3 for gaming.

Right on. Whatever floats your boat.

For me, it's Hi-Def movies.

Nighty night

If you want I good idea about why I am wary of "the bluray" :) just spend some time on the petition site linked below.Come now all that website (http://www.hdnowonline.com) shows is a perfect example of propaganda. Carefully selected reviews of Blu-ray titles edited for maximum negativity, conspiracy theories against the BDA, and "facts" which are for the most part just opinion. The few actual facts on that website tend to either be exaggerated in importance or are out of date. For instance that website mentions that software sales are 3 to 1 for HD DVD which is a tad out of date considering they probably are now around 3 to 1 for Blu-ray. Personally I wouldn't have anything against a pro-HD DVD website but in my opinion that looks to me like a anti-Blu-ray website.


And, BTW, I'm not knocking Intel here, archibael, but no software scaler I've ever run across can match dedicated hardware scalers like the Gennum or Realta.Just curious but what software scalers have you used?


There are 3 players for which it will be a little more work and there are 6 for which it will be easier.Just curious but why do you believe that some HD DVD players have a better chance of working with TL HD DVD than others? Are you guessing that the newer HD DVD players are more likely to work with it?


Don't forget that all players will player the triple layer, single sided DVD/HD DVD combo discs, so don't think it's an impossible stretch.How many triple layer HD DVD combo discs have ever been released?


Talk in recent posts did not present BD-200s as vapourware at all. Are you suggesting they're vapourware?What Talkstr8t said (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9465383&&#post9465383) was actually about BD-100. TDK once did a demonstration for BD-200 but that was for a 6 layer disc and has never been shown outside of a lab. Personally I don't think we will ever see BD-100 added to the Blu-ray specs though I also don't think we will ever see TL HD DVD added to the HD DVD specs.

This is only slightly related to HDTV Software, but I am asking this of the insiders here on the off chance they might have an answer:

In the Cell Broadband Engine technology, what was Toshiba's contribution, and how much do they stand to gain monetarily from each $1 revenue from the technology?

I am asking this to get an idea on how much the success of PS3 and Blu-Ray would help Toshiba irrespective of the fortunes of HD-DVD. With the insiders from Intel, Sun, BroadCom, SigmaTel, Microsoft and Sony Pictures here, I figure SOMEONE would have to know.

TIA :)

Understand that the research portion of Cell came to roughly ~$400 million, funded mainly by Sony, but with contributions from Toshiba as well in both design direction, funds, and engineering talent. IBM provided the majority of the design implementation, but the core conceptual ideas were a synthesis of several divergent concepts all three partners brought to the table. Kutaragi ultimately had oversight over the entire project.

The majority of the costs associated with Cell are not directly Cell related per se even, but stem from fab buildouts dedicated at least initially to its production. Sony has invested heavily (in the billions) in creating a 65nm SOI production line at its Nagasaki 2 fab in Japan, and chips are expected to be rolling off of this any day now. In fact, Sony indicates that 65nm Cell sourcing has already begun, and it is unclear whether the initial supplies are coming from East Fishkill, Nagasaki, or both. East Fishkill and the 65nm line there, for its part, is also part-owned by Sony, that contributed a substantial sum to aid in its development in order to be guaranteed a certain share of its production.

Toshiba does not presently produce Cell chips for the PS3, nor any Cell chips at all for that matter. Sony and Toshiba, seperately from IBM and the IBM:Sony SOI process, are developing Cell on 65nm as well, but on a bulk CMOS process designed to utilize reduced SPE counts and be more energy-efficient. Their hope is to both start using Cell in consumer electronics in the coming year or two, and it will be this variant that gets used.

How much Toshiba collects in IP per Cell fabbed elsewhere is completely unknown - as are Sony and IBMs own respective IP cuts. But Toshiba does seem to have a present stake via silicon in PS3, and indirectly through Cell. It seems that the southbridge of the PS3 is Toshiba's Super Companion Chip. It's a fairly large chip, and Toshiba is probably receiving a decent sum for it per chip. There is a question firstly as to why it's there, and whether a smaller/leaner variant may soon be used.

Points of interest:

* Sony, Toshiba, and IBM have an agreement to get back together on Cell development for the 32nm node and share fabbing technology to achieve it. FOr 45nm, IBM and AMD will be researchign immersion lithography seperately from Sony, Toshiba, and NEC - that have their own alliance. Until then, several variants for Cell are planned at both 65nm and 45nm by all three companies.

* IBM stated Sony and Toshiba as partners in the recent High-K research development, which seems to indicate that independent of Cell, Sony and Toshiba might gain full access to High-K (http://linuxps3.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=33) technology. We'll see what happens.

* Toshiba's Super Companion Chip is supposedly being used in IBM's Cell blades at the moment as well.

No, are there any you are looking forward to in TL51?

I already posted the answer to your question this afternoon (copied below). It's the BD supporters that have embraced the concept that 50GB discs are the key to good PQ (or is it 200GB now?). This despite the fact that 80% of the 132 BD titles reviewed on highdefdigest are BD-25s.

I've been consistent on this from the announcement of TL-51. I don't believe it is needed from a technical perspective, however it is very important from a marketing perspective.

I read through the CES Blu-Ray literature again recently. The message is very consistent regarding disc size. Blu-Ray is better because movies have 50GB of disc space. There is no mention that such a thing as BD-25 even exists. The reality is that 106 out of the 131 BD titles reviewed on highdefdigest are BD-25.

So my question still stands......Why do we need BD-50?

What Talkstr8t said (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9465383&&#post9465383) was actually about BD-100. TDK once did a demonstration for BD-200 but that was for a 6 layer disc and has never been shown outside of a lab. Personally I don't think we will ever see BD-100 added to the Blu-ray specs though I also don't think we will ever see TL HD DVD added to the HD DVD specs.

Thank you for the correction Richard, BD-100 it is.

So my question still stands......Why do we need BD-50?
I can't believe this is still a topic. Just over 6 months after the launch of a brand new technology, you're complaining that there are few DL BD's. And that the full potential is not used. Again, I am totally amazed how someone, apparently with their eyes wide open, are claiming we don't need more space. ONLY HD DVD zealots do this, I have not seen this in any other CE/Computer related matter. (Except again that we do not need the higher transfer speed, from the same people.)

When you set out to do a brand new format, do you intentionally cripple it because you don't see the long term advantages of part of the technology? Of course not, you try to maximize as many features as possible, as obviously, as proven again and again in other matters, over time they will get used. DVD-9 has proved this very effectively. It is not bad that it offers a lot of space. How can someone possibly spin it to be bad? I mean, really?

I'm not going to comment on codecs, runtime, lossless or not etc. I'm glad BD offers 50GB of space and I know all of it will be put to good use over its lifetime of many years to come.

However I'm not sure the time hasn't come for it to end. Most of the good may have been done. In the meantime, Netflix and BB are having trouble finding shelf space with 2 formats. And I fear the war, if continued much longer could be detrimental to HD optical in general; a sentiment that has been felt here at AVS since before the war really began.


Oh bull. Now I should be worried what becomes of Blockbuster and Netflix? :rolleyes: Their goose is cooked when downlaodable movies become the norm anyway, and they know it. Then you'll really see just how demanding the general populace isn't when it comes to quality VS price and convenience.

Nobody cares about HD optical yet besides early adopters at this juncture, and if SD "wins" it will be because people just don't see the point of Hi-Def. For the average movie owner, they may be right.

My way of dealing with this is going to be investing in HD-DVD, that includes upgrading SD titles I want in HD. Blu-ray-only titles I won't upgrade, unless in the unlikely event HD-DVD dies swiftly.

My prediction is that neither goes away, but neither rises to the top on a wave of awe struck consumers either, and I don't think the "war' has much to do with it. IMO HD will move in "soft," if at all, when either or both formats are just "yet another logo" across the top bar of your DVD player (that costs $200 or less).

Sony are second biggest CE in the world, Toshiba have no media divisions, they do not produce the number one selling TV, they have a similar sized computer departments to Sony, the only reason that they are involved in Cell R&D is that Sony needed another company to shoulder the burden. Sony have cell phones (highly profitable ones at that), Toshiba do not, Toshiba have HDDs, Sony do not. Really it is about the same, but SPE/SonyBMG tip the scales towards Sony slightly as they really do print money atm.

But the money machine is new. SPE had an especially rough start with their early projects. It has been in just the last 3-5 that Sony Pictures can deliver blockbusters.

But in Hollywood things change fast. Sony Pictures is a hot studio now, but depending on the cost of "Ghost Rider" that could change.

Sony Pictures is a hot studio now, but depending on the cost of "Ghost Rider" that could change.

Even if "GR" tanks, "Spider-Man 3" will wash it away in a tidal wave of cash.

I can't believe this is still a topic. Just over 6 months after the launch of a brand new technology, you're complaining that there are few DL BD's. And that the full potential is not used. Again, I am totally amazed how someone, apparently with their eyes wide open, are claiming we don't need more space. ONLY HD DVD zealots do this, I have not seen this in any other CE/Computer related matter. (Except again that we do not need the higher transfer speed, from the same people.)

When you set out to do a brand new format, do you intentionally cripple it because you don't see the long term advantages of part of the technology? Of course not, you try to maximize as many features as possible, as obviously, as proven again and again in other matters, over time they will get used. DVD-9 has proved this very effectively. It is not bad that it offers a lot of space. How can someone possibly spin it to be bad? I mean, really?

I'm not going to comment on codecs, runtime, lossless or not etc. I'm glad BD offers 50GB of space and I know all of it will be put to good use over its lifetime of many years to come.

I applaud you for answering this question. I've asked a number of times in the last few days and you are the first to answer.

Let me clarify....I am not complaining that there are few DL BDs, I am pointing out that they are simply unnecessary for good picture quality, unless of course the goal is to stick with mpeg2 which has inconsistent results on BD-25 (depending on length of title and type of material). If you go back and look at some of Uxi's recent posts regarding favorite BD titles for PQ, it helps explain this. You can reach the same conclusions by studying the reviews of the various available BD titles.

I am also pointing out to BD supporters that if disc size is what you are basing your format choice on the majority of titles available for you to buy continue to be smaller in size than what is available on the vast majority of HD-DVD titles today. Of course you are free to follow your convictions that the future of BD will be dominated by BD-50 instead of BD-25. Much of the BD support story is focused on future deliverables already, so this is hardly a stretch.

I'll do a longer post on this in the future, as it is an interesting topic.

Well, if by this you are saying that Universal is the only company that releases those older titles then I will have to call bull.

Considering the list of movies you stated, The Fog is MGM, Dr. Strangelove is Sony, so you won't ever see those. Elephant Man, Robin Hood, and Forbidden Planet are Paramount and Warner, so you have just as much chance as us getting them (less now, considering like you said they won't sell nearly as many, so why sell to the product with the smaller consumer base). The only three you will get that we can't is Psycho, Vertigo, and Muholland Drive, which are all excellent movies, but right now I wouldn't hold my breath for them if Universal won't even give release dates for your blockbusters.

I am assuming that you are a Blu-Ray owner.

On HD DVD Warners has released Robin Hood and Forbidden Planet on HD DVD, but not yet on Blu-Ray.

Studio Canal have released a beautiful version of The Fog. I've read that The Elephant Man looks great. Since these Studio Canal releases are region free I snatched them up. Neither of these films, which are controlled by either neutral or Blu-Ray exclusive studios, has been released in the US.

So, on Blu-Ray you can currently purchase none of the catalog films discussed above. Except...

Does someone have announced dates for Blu-Ray versions of Robin Hood and Forbidden Planet?

Since MGM owns the rights to The Fog has anyone seen an announcement from them?

Dr. Strangelove should be an excellent candidate for a Blu-Ray release, especially a two disk dvd set has already been released.

The classic catalog tally:
HD DVD - Domestic releases:
Robin Hood - released
Forbidden Planet - released
Vertigo - announced(?), no date
Psycho - announced(?), no date
Mulholland Drive - released (?)
The Elephant Man - not announced(?)
Total - 6

Blu-Ray - Domestic Releases
Dr. Strangelove - not announced(?)
The Elephant Man - not announced(?)
The Fog - not announced(?)
Total - 4

Since Paramount owns the domestic rights for The Elephant Man I included it in both. Also, I could add The Fog to the HD DVD count as HD DVD is region free. But I did want to make the comparison based on what we should be able to purchase at BB or CC.

Propoganda? You should know it when you see it, I suppose ;) It's called advocacy, as in we are advocating HD DVD - it's not against the law, you know...

Just curious but what software scalers have you used?[you're implying that I haven't? You clearly don't spend much time in the HTPC section.

Just curious but why do you believe that some HD DVD players have a better chance of working with TL HD DVD than others? Are you guessing that the newer HD DVD players are more likely to work with it?There are technical reasons - a bright fellow such as yourself must already know why, but if not, you'll know later...

What Talkstr8t said (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9465383&&#post9465383) was actually about BD-100. TDK once did a demonstration for BD-200 but that was for a 6 layer disc and has never been shown outside of a lab. Personally I don't think we will ever see BD-100 added to the Blu-ray specs though I also don't think we will ever see TL HD DVD added to the HD DVD specs.First off: the 100 gig demo was on a player that had had the laser assembly optics modified for it to be able to focus on the additional layers. No existing Bluray player, including the illustrious PS3 would be able to play it. It was just more Bluray HYPE.

Yes, Bluray also announced a 200 gig lab rat also, but it also standas zero chance of ever carrying prerecorded movies to consumers.

TL-51 will be added to the HD DVD spec, within 2007, and will carry HD DVD movies to consumers. I expect that some BR elements in the DVD Forum will try hard to stop this from happening, but it will happen.

Propoganda? You should know it when you see it, I supposeTypical comeback, but have you ever noticed that few, if any, of the other HD DVD supporters will defend your website? Maybe, just maybe, there is a reason for that.


It's called advocacy, as in we are advocating HD DVD - it's not against the law, you know...Sure, but for a website that advocates HD DVD it certainly spends a lot of time attacking Blu-ray. In fact from what I have seen it spends most of its time doing that.


[you're implying that I haven't? You clearly don't spend much time in the HTPC section.Actually I was just curious to hear what software scalers you have tried but if you don't want to list them you certainly don't have to.


There are technical reasonsWhat technical reasons? Maybe I am being to logical about this but it seems to me that if you had any you would want to post them.


TL-51 will be added to the HD DVD spec, within 2007, and will carry HD DVD movies to consumers.rdjam, for someone so suspicious of Blu-ray I truly don't understand how you can have such confidence making statements like this. How do you know that it will even be added to the HD DVD specs?

That answer is easy for me, not everyone is talking just about blockbuster movies ten years old or less. Sony and Fox have made a pretty weak showing of releasing catalog titles compared to Universal and Warner on DVD. It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to figure out they are even less-likely to bother on Blu-ray.
...

"Cineophiles" who seriously collect films, know which companies have catered to their tastes and released great-looking, affordable, and well produced DVDs of important films, and which ones have not. We also know that "Technophiles" are more gaga for latest in engineering specs, and jump-ship when the next "big thing" comes along.

Actually, by my count, catalog title appears to favour Blu Ray right now from my thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798107) BD has 67 older titles out now or soon; HD DVD will have only 58 catalog titles over the same time period.

HD DVD has put out a greater percentage of catalog titles, but BD leads in absolute numbers. I guess the question is: do you prefer the format that releases 1,000 catalog titles that represents only 10% of all their releases, or do you prefer a format that releases 500 catalog titles but represents 20% of all their releases?!?

Typical comeback You mean typical for me, where I address the points, or typical for you where you attack the post? ;)

but have you ever noticed that few, if any, of the other HD DVD supporters will defend your website? Maybe, just maybe, there is a reason for that.Because they may not want to be attacked by people like you for talking their views. Rest assured that there are now Five Thousand, Eight Hundred (5,800) people who have signed the petition on that site. I don't think I need you to tell me whether the initiative has any support. Thanks anyway ;)

Sure, but for a website that advocates HD DVD it certainly spends a lot of time attacking Blu-ray. In fact from what I have seen it spends most of its time doing that.News Flash: There's a format war. Pot, meet Kettle - you act like you don't do the same of HD DVD.

The information on the site is mostly comparative, and seeks to underline a number of different reasons why the sponsors prefer HD DVD. Some of that involves the format, some involves the creator. If there was anything outright wrong at the time of writing, any interested party has the right to inform us as we have given Phone, Email and other contacts and invited such feedback. If you're saying that you just don't like some of what you have read there, then thanks for your feedback.

Actually I was just curious to hear what software scalers you have tried but if you don't want to list them you certainly don't have to.OK, nosy ;) ffdshow and dscaler, also used with an PCI card that had a Faroudja scaler on board. Many players now use much of the GPU horsepower in your PC to help them along, but I found none to match something like the Vantage HD. If you look in the HTPC threads as I suggested earlier, you'll see my thread on forcing interlaced Standard Def output from my HTPC over DVI into my Vantage HD - which I opened about a year ago. Sorry you won't be able to continue to infer that I don't know what I'm talking about, but I don't know why you chose to attack my post to someone else anyway, except just to entertain an idle argument.

What technical reasons? Maybe I am being to logical about this but it seems to me that if you had any you would want to post them.If I intended to tell you that information, I would have.

rdjam, for someone so suspicious of Blu-ray I truly don't understand how you can have such confidence making statements like this. How do you know that it will even be added to the HD DVD specs?"I truly don't understand" your feigned surprise when we both know that insiders have already stated it is being submitted? Oh well, I suppose it's just part of your ongoing strategy to try to create doubt for anything I say. Your role on this forum often seems to be to undermine the credibility of opposing posters, even the most solid people like Amir. I may have a reputation as being an HD DVD advocate, but at least I mostly go after issues...

I applaud you for answering this question. I've asked a number of times in the last few days and you are the first to answer.

Let me clarify....I am not complaining that there are few DL BDs, I am pointing out that they are simply unnecessary for good picture quality, unless of course the goal is to stick with mpeg2 which has inconsistent results on BD-25 (depending on length of title and type of material). If you go back and look at some of Uxi's recent posts regarding favorite BD titles for PQ, it helps explain this. You can reach the same conclusions by studying the reviews of the various available BD titles.

I am also pointing out to BD supporters that if disc size is what you are basing your format choice on the majority of titles available for you to buy continue to be smaller in size than what is available on the vast majority of HD-DVD titles today. Of course you are free to follow your convictions that the future of BD will be dominated by BD-50 instead of BD-25. Much of the BD support story is focused on future deliverables already, so this is hardly a stretch.

I'll do a longer post on this in the future, as it is an interesting topic.

Thanks for a level headed response. :) I'm sure the goal is not to stick with MPEG2, more and more releases will be VC-1 or AVC. And true, for most movies, you don't need 50GB for excellent PQ. But again, why would you limit a brand new format, built for the future, because "most" movies might not need it today? It just makes no sense whatsoever.

You do have longer movies. You have TV series. You have sets of movies. You have TONS of HD extras. You have all kind of new and fancy interactive content. There are plenty of reasons why 50GB will come in handy, even when not publishing movies using MPEG2. Sometimes you'll use 25GB, sometimes 35GB, sometimes 45GB, sometimes 50GB. The point is, if you need it, the space is there. (Why did Toshiba come up with TL-51? Obviously there is a reason? Don't even get me started on the reason for picking 51GB... My goodness. :o )

I did NOT choose Blu-ray solely because of disc size. I chose Blu-ray because of studio support, because I see it as the better technology, because the PS3 has it built in etc.

And, I am not convinced the future will be dominated by BD50's. What I like is that the option is there, when it is needed. No need to skimp on this or that to cram it into 25GB or 30GB. And yes, I do prefer to have it all on one disc. Call me lazy...

Of course, what remains to be seen is how the studios will actually utilize this space, production capacity as more and more buy into Blu-ray etc. I'm sure there will be issues, but I'm in this for the long haul. I've chosen my side, and I stand by it. YMMV. :)

TL-51 will be added to the HD DVD spec, within 2007, and will carry HD DVD movies to consumers. I expect that some BR elements in the DVD Forum will try hard to stop this from happening, but it will happen.

How many of the current HD DVD players do you think will be able to play back TL-51 discs, a) reading the third layer, b) handle the proposed 50% increased bandwidth?

... you try to maximize as many features as possible, as obviously, as proven again and again in other matters, over time they will get used. DVD-9 has proved this very effectively.

Actually, what DVD-9 has effectively proved is that you really don't need DVD-18 even though it is available and has twice the capacity.

Over the ten years of DVD nobody has really developed a compelling reason to use that feature.

Actually, what DVD-9 has effectively proved is that you really don't need DVD-18 even though it is available and has twice the capacity.

Over the ten years of DVD nobody has really developed a compelling reason to use that feature.
Well, 2-discs comes to mind...;)

Well, 2-discs comes to mind...;)

It is cheaper do do a two-disc set rather than one DVD-18, the failure rates on the DVD-18 are not too good.

Oh bull. Now I should be worried what becomes of Blockbuster and Netflix? :rolleyes: Their goose is cooked when downlaodable movies become the norm anyway, and they know it. Then you'll really see just how demanding the general populace isn't when it comes to quality VS price and convenience.


Who said I care about Neflix and BB?

I care about people, like myself, who want to be able to rent HD optical.

And yes I'm sure we'll all be downloading all of our HD content real soon. :rolleyes:

Actually, by my count, catalog title appears to favour Blu Ray right now from my thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798107) BD has 67 older titles out now or soon; HD DVD will have only 58 catalog titles over the same time period.

HD DVD has put out a greater percentage of catalog titles, but BD leads in absolute numbers. I guess the question is: do you prefer the format that releases 1,000 catalog titles that represents only 10% of all their releases, or do you prefer a format that releases 500 catalog titles but represents 20% of all their releases?!?


Well I haven't seen a two-to-one ratio of releases in BD's favor yet, and it's silly to think the years roster for either format has been fully announced.

Again, you want me base my criteria on your speculation of future releases. Mine is a little more long term, and says more HD-DVD-only catalog titles will come out and the numbers of overall HD titles will expand greatly because of it. Then smaller labels will enter the loop on HD-DVD, because they often press in small runs anyway, and HD will be more affordable and easier for them to utilize.

What seems BD supports are suggesting is that we stop buying HD so the war ends, start buying BD so that the format grows, and wait patiently for it become so large that the production costs get low enough for more obscure to start coming out, even though Sony and Fox do precious little of those releases to SD. :rolleyes:

If I bought your projections, and I don't; I would still say yes I'd rather have fewer releases of titles that appeal to me more. Roughly 150-200 SDs come out every week, I usually buy about a DVD a week, so numbers mean noting if your not getting what you want.

When HD-DVD sales increase, and it proves it's not leaving just because BD supporters want it to, you'll see more neutrality among studios, or at least among players.

Who said I care about Neflix and BB?

I care about people, like myself, who want to be able to rent HD optical.

And yes I'm sure we'll all be downloading all of our HD content real soon. :rolleyes:
Geez...one of the few times I agree with a posting of yours! :o

Who said I care about Neflix and BB?

I care about people, like myself, who want to be able to rent HD optical.

And yes I'm sure we'll all be downloading all of our HD content real soon. :rolleyes:

Maybe not you and maybe not me, but a whole heck of a lot of people who buy and rent and burn SD will. Studios want this too, they would much rather sell you a stream of zeros and ones than do the comparatively expensive heavy-lifting of getting product in your hands.

It is cheaper do do a two-disc set rather than one DVD-18, the failure rates on the DVD-18 are not too good.

you got that right, I grew so tired of hearing "It's your player, it's your player"

Which player? my two JVC's, my Pioneer elite, or my Sony? ;)

There is logic in that, sure, if you don't care to watch HD now. Of course.

In the meantime the PS3 is a highly acclaimed machine that will play BDs with a quality unrivaled. It wil also play video games, again, with a quality unrivaled.

The only thing it doesn't do extremely well, right now, is upscale SD. Many displays can do as good a job as a lot of unconverting DVD players no, including mine so I could give a rat's a$$. BUT, it will be able to do that soon.

You can argue your points and I will accept them.

My point is, it is already a great machine, possibly the best, according to S&V and an incredible value!...

...AND it will only get better.

Fair enough ... but if you're talking about potential versus now ... why not have an HD-DVD player? They have Interactivity with IME and PiP now ... no need to wait for BD to release titles that support it. ;)

Geez...one of the few times I agree with a posting of yours! :o

Don't be ashamed. You're on the right path my young Samwise. ;)

Fair enough ... but if you're talking about potential versus now ... why not have an HD-DVD player? They have Interactivity with IME and PiP now ... no need to wait for BD to release titles that support it. ;)

I have had my 2 displays for years and have never used PiP. I can count on one hand the number of times a have even watched extra features on DVD.

I pop the DVD in to watch a movie, not play around with it.

It's very neat that HD DVD has these interactive abilities for those who care. I don't and I suspect I am in the majority.

Maybe not you and maybe not me, but a whole heck of a lot of people who buy and rent and burn SD will. Studios want this too, they would much rather sell you a stream of zeros and ones than do the comparatively expensive heavy-lifting of getting product in your hands.

1. How long do you think before those downloads reach Limewire? Are streams really unhackalbe?

2. What about HD content? What if I'm not satisfied with low rate DD (which, of course, I'm not?) Will I be able to get lossless, or will that be sacrificed, as it is now with HDTV?

I do believe that all of this is in our future, but how soon?

I have had my 2 displays for years and have never used PiP. I can count on one hand the number of times a have even watched extra features on DVD.

I pop the DVD in to watch a movie, not play around with it.

It's very neat that HD DVD has these interactive abilities for those who care. I don't and I suspect I am in the majority.

Then why would a studio hold back the BR releases of Matrix and Harry Potter? Hopefully, they get annouced soon ... but it seems like they are waiting on Interactivity to be ready.

A number of people like the extra content, etc. You say you're in the majority and that you don't care about these features. My question is, if the majority doesn't care, then why are studios still producing content with the extras and interactivity? I would think they would chase the dollars / majority ... no? If it was just about the movies, they could take that extra space and use it for improved PQ/AQ on the main feature, no? *shrug*

1. How long do you think before those downloads reach Limewire? Are streams really unhackalbe?

2. What about HD content? What if I'm not satisfied with low rate DD (which, of course, I'm not?) Will I be able to get lossless, or will that be sacrificed, as it is now with HDTV?

I do believe that all of this is in our future, but how soon?

answer one

I think everything gets hacked, more sooner than later. It's futile for studios to invest the sweat and blood they do in trying to protect content. My philosophy is that a widely distributed, quality product, at a reasonable price, is a greater assurance against piracy than any regional code or copy protection they come up with. Some people will always steel, but play games with the markets getting different content at different times and your just asking for it.

answer two

That why I said maybe not you or I, but the rest of the movie consuming public may prove to be a little less discerning than your hoping for.

answer three

As soon as it can. The IPOD proved people will sacrifice quality for convenience and cost on a major scale. They know that a lot of their DVDs just gather dust after their initial viewing, and probably like the idea of some TVO-style Hard-drive being their library.

you got that right, I grew so tired of hearing "It's your player, it's your player"

Which player? my two JVC's, my Pioneer elite, or my Sony? ;)

They must have improved them from those days. Otherwise, people would be complaining about the combos if not (beyond the price/aesthetic issues :)).

Gary

Then why would a studio hold back the BR releases of Matrix and Harry Potter? Hopefully, they get annouced soon ... but it seems like they are waiting on Interactivity to be ready.

A number of people like the extra content, etc. You say you're in the majority and that you don't care about these features. My question is, if the majority doesn't care, then why are studios still producing content with the extras and interactivity? I would think they would chase the dollars / majority ... no? If it was just about the movies, they could take that extra space and use it for improved PQ/AQ on the main feature, no? *shrug*

1. I don't know.

2. I believe they produce extras so the GP doesn't feel so ripped off, even if they don't take advantage of them.

3. I agree that extras should be sacrificed in the name of less compression.

Then why would a studio hold back the BR releases of Matrix and Harry Potter? Hopefully, they get annouced soon ... but it seems like they are waiting on Interactivity to be ready.

A number of people like the extra content, etc. You say you're in the majority and that you don't care about these features. My question is, if the majority doesn't care, then why are studios still producing content with the extras and interactivity? I would think they would chase the dollars / majority ... no? If it was just about the movies, they could take that extra space and use it for improved PQ/AQ on the main feature, no? *shrug*


Count me has one who could give a carp about 80% of SD extras.

For one I don't have the time; second, I'm lazy. Call me old-fashioned, but I want to relax and enjoy a movie, not play games with it. I'm sure the people I watch movies with don't want to watch me futz with that stuff either.

Studios have to come up with new ideas to promise investors that the market isn't stagnating (which it is), and that they can increase profitability. I think interactivity is one of those boardroom ideas that's pretty out of touch with the average consumers desires.

answer one

I think everything gets hacked, more sooner than later. It's futile for studios to invest the sweat and blood they do in trying to protect content. My philosophy is that a widely distributed, quality product, at a reasonable price, is a greater assurance against piracy than any regional code or copy protection they come up with. Some people will always steel, but play games with the markets getting different content at different times and your just asking for it.

answer two

That why I said maybe not you or I, but the rest of the movie consuming public may prove to be a little less discerning than your hoping for.

answer three

As soon as it can. The IPOD proved people will sacrifice quality for convenience and cost on a major scale. They know that a lot of their DVDs just gather dust after their initial viewing, and probably like the idea of some TVO-style Hard-drive being their library.

All logical.

I just hope there remains something for everyone. We like choices. Have you been down the cereal isle of your local Safeway? The ipod has not killed DVD, has it?

As long as there is decent demand, there should be a fill for it.

Let's hope, anyway.

They must have improved them from those days. Otherwise, people would be complaining about the combos if not (beyond the price/aesthetic issues :)).

Gary

Universal got thousands of complaints that their mid 05 early 06 DVD-18 legacy boxes and TV boxes had playback issues. Their solution was to pretty-much take a step back to DVD-9. They slimed the packaging, doubled the disks, their stuff looks better on screen now, is more reliable, and takes up no more space on the self.

Universal got thousands of complaints that their mid 05 early 06 DVD-18 legacy boxes and TV boxes had playback issues. Their solution was to pretty-much take a step back to DVD-9. They slimed the packaging, doubled the disks, their stuff looks better on screen now, is more reliable, and takes up no more space on the self.

Are you figuring Universal is going to have issues again with some of the 90% of HD DVD titles they plan to release this year on combo (DVD-18) form? (I sure hope it is flippy they are planning).

Seems I'm the one saying things probably will be OK, and you're the one raising the spectre of problems. :D

Gary

Fair enough ... but if you're talking about potential versus now ... why not have an HD-DVD player? They have Interactivity with IME and PiP now ... no need to wait for BD to release titles that support it. ;) The now is more content on BD.


fuad

Are you figuring Universal is going to have issues again with some of the 90% of HD DVD titles they plan to release this year on combo (DVD-18) form? (I sure hope it is flippy they are planning).

Seems I'm the one saying things probably will be OK, and you're the one raising the spectre of problems. :D

Gary

Every time that you double the complexity of a product you quadruple the chances of failure. Now you know why BD is sticking to no more than 2 layers on a single side of their discs... :)

b2b

The now is more content on BD.


fuad


No theres not.

NA Releases:
HD DVD has 178 releases
Blu-ray has 163 releases

If the amount of titles is to be debated then we would need to list all the titles that are being counted. My list is in my sig link, anyone that wants feel free to take a look and point out any errors that I have.

I have recently seen the list though posted here on avs and elsewhere that was showing more content for BR but there was many discrepancies with that list, if thats what your using to count the totals.

I've created a little stats page over here - http://hddiscs.wetpaint.com/page/Blu-Ray+%26+HD-DVD+format+war to keep a tally in the ongoing war between the formats.

Let me know what you think. It's a fully editable wiki, so feel free to change anything (reasonable) that you see fit.

Cheers,
Randy Stewart

I've created a little stats page over here - http://hddiscs.wetpaint.com/page/Blu-Ray+%26+HD-DVD+format+war to keep a tally in the ongoing war between the formats.

Let me know what you think. It's a fully editable wiki, so feel free to change anything (reasonable) that you see fit.

Cheers,
Randy Stewart

Hi Randy, download the list in my sig and you can see that more movies are shipping that what your page says

Are you figuring Universal is going to have issues again with some of the 90% of HD DVD titles they plan to release this year on combo (DVD-18) form? (I sure hope it is flippy they are planning).

Seems I'm the one saying things probably will be OK, and you're the one raising the spectre of problems. :D

Gary

I think a lot of the DVD-18 problems were associated with a specific plant in Mexico. At the time there were not a lot of places pressing 18's.

As far as the Universal dual-format disks go, I have no need of the DVD side, especially since I probably own their DVD counterparts anyway. and won't be buying them for that side.

I make no secret that I think combo players are much better idea than combo disks.

I'm not neutral, I support HD-DVD, but I don't think BD has die either.

The now is more content on BD.


fuad

What's "fuad" ?

Anyways, according to dvdempire, there are actually 5 more titles available on HD-DVD than Blu-Ray ... 164 to 159 ... sooo ... now would really be more content on HD-DVD. :p

I think a lot of the DVD-18 problems were associated with a specific plant in Mexico. At the time there were not a lot of places pressing 18's.

As far as the Universal dual-format disks go, I have no need of the DVD side, especially since I probably own their DVD counterparts anyway. and won't be buying them for that side.

I make no secret that I think combo players are much better idea than combo disks.

I'm not neutral, I support HD-DVD, but I don't think BD has die either.

The only problem I had with a DVD-18 disc set indicated (on the hub of the disc) that it was "Made in "Taiwan". This was a Universal release for the US market (bought at Target) and not an import ..

I swapped out for a new one and the problems went away..

b2b

Hi Randy, download the list in my sig and you can see that more movies are shipping that what your page says

Thanks for that. Excellent list! I got most of my list from HiDefDigest.


Cheers,
Randy Stewart

What's "fuad" ?

Anyways, according to dvdempire, there are actually 5 more titles available on HD-DVD than Blu-Ray ... 164 to 159 ... sooo ... now would really be more content on HD-DVD. :p

Yet BD has caught up and likely surpased HD DVD in disc sales in such a short time. Hmmmm. :p

I've created a little stats page over here - http://hddiscs.wetpaint.com/page/Blu-Ray+%26+HD-DVD+format+war to keep a tally in the ongoing war between the formats.

Let me know what you think. It's a fully editable wiki, so feel free to change anything (reasonable) that you see fit.

Cheers,
Randy Stewart

Better add Samsung, RCA, Phillips, Sharp, Lite-On, Mitsubishi and Toshiba... whoops. not Toshiba. :) ...to the Blu-ray team.

No theres not.

NA Releases:
HD DVD has 178 releases
Blu-ray has 163 releases

If the amount of titles is to be debated then we would need to list all the titles that are being counted. My list is in my sig link, anyone that wants feel free to take a look and point out any errors that I have.

I have recently seen the list though posted here on avs and elsewhere that was showing more content for BR but there was many discrepancies with that list, if thats what your using to count the totals.

Oh well.. In a few weeks there will be. From more studios. My feeling is that once passed, HD DVD will never catch up. Ever.

Yet BD has caught up and likely surpased HD DVD in disc sales in such a short time. Hmmmm. :p

That's just early BR adopter buying frenzy. HD DVD early adopters are now waiting for new releases now the initial buying frenzy is over. Some can't even resist the habit and start buying BR too.

The real test are the sales numbers when the format(s) start gaining mass market tracktion.

That's just early BR adopter buying frenzy. HD DVD early adopters are now waiting for new releases now the initial buying frenzy is over. Some can't even resist the habit and start buying BR too.

The real test are the sales numbers when the format(s) start gaining mass market tracktion.

Fine, but were early adopters of BD, according to the HD DVD camp, supposed to catch and surpass HD DVD in disc sales at all? Let alone so quickly?

Those "new releases" you speak of are not going to match the numbers of BD releases, nor are they going to come close in the blockbuster/Oscar category in the coming months. But, you're right, if no one buys Spiderman, or Casino Royale, then we'll know it was just the early frenzy. ;)

And I believe the war will be decided before mass market traction begins.

Better add Samsung, RCA, Phillips, Sharp, Lite-On, Mitsubishi and Toshiba... whoops. not Toshiba. :) ...to the Blu-ray team.


Do they all have shipping products?

Do they all have shipping products?

Well I didn't see anything on your site that limited the teams to that, but I can tell you that Samsung, RCA and Phillips certainly do.

Do they all have shipping products?

BTW, Samsung was the first company to retail with a BD player.

Do they all have shipping products?

The Sharp is scheduled for Q2 2007.

The Lite-On and Mits do not have dates.

http://www.blu-ray.com/players/

These 'blockbuster' releases will sell millions of SD DVD disks in a heartbeat.
Most people will not rush out to buy a BR player but some will.

Early adopters are different. They buy more disks than most other people.

Also the effect of Europe where HD formats are only just introduced will become visible shortly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstewar
Do they all have shipping products?


Well I didn't see anything on your site that limited the teams to that, but I can tell you that Samsung, RCA and Phillips certainly do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rstewar
Do they all have shipping products?


BTW, Samsung was the first company to retail with a BD player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rstewar
Do they all have shipping products?


The Sharp is scheduled for Q2 2007.

The Lite-On and Mits do not have dates.

http://www.blu-ray.com/players/


Quote:
Originally Posted by rstewar
Do they all have shipping products?


I handled it.

You know, most reasonable people would have just combined these responses into one post. That is why there is an edit option. Unless of course, your goal is to seek extra attention, irritate and boost your post count. :rolleyes:
J

Do they all have shipping products?

I handled it.

You know, most reasonable people would have just combined these responses into one post. That is why there is an edit option. Unless of course, your goal is to needlessly irritate and boost your post count. :rolleyes:
J

Well, I guess my little scheme worked. ;) I hope you can make it through the rest of your day.

No, actually I hadn't thought about the post count. Thanks!

Seriously though, you're right. Wasn't thinking.

My guess is that PS3 people want a few disks for their players, wha-la a spike in sales.

I'm not going to deny PS3 shoved more BD players out there (though not as many as Sony was hoping for), it's whether or not you see a chill, then a balancing that remains to be seen. Also, Sony has been pushing really hard, they're buying the end-caps at Best Buy and Circuit City, and magazine ads, and TV ads.

The only way a format is going to "win" is if studios already producing their product cease, not if they start releasing the other camps format. I'm not gonna go all Bl-ray even if they do pull ahead, because even if they "win" they can still loose. I don't need two dead formats that I bought into at top dollar. BD will have to sell to me for $300 or less.

Besides I have a hunch that now that Microsoft has got their four-years-in-the making operating system launched, you may well see a rise in the coin they and Toshiba throw at marketing.

My guess is that PS3 people want a few disks for their players, wha-la a spike in sales.

I'm not going to deny PS3 shoved more BD players out there (though not as many as Sony was hoping for), it's whether or not you see a chill, then a balancing that remains to be seen. Also, Sony has been pushing really hard, they're buying the end-caps at Best Buy and Circuit City, and magazine ads, and TV ads.



Isn't it really that simple?

All in all, no one has put up nearly the amount of money Sony has to win the format war, not even close.


Besides I have a hunch that now that Microsoft has got their four-years-in-the making operating system launched, you may well see a rise in the coin they and Toshiba throw at marketing.

Both companies have proven much more conservative towards 'investing' money in the dvd format war than Sony no? MS 'invested' several billion to get in the game console business and it appears that most signs point to fiscal conservativism these days.

Isn't it really that simple?

All in all, no one has put up nearly the amount of money Sony has to win the format war, not even close.




Both companies have proven much more conservative towards 'investing' money in the dvd format war than Sony no? MS 'invested' several billion to get in the game console business and it appears that most signs point to fiscal conservativism these days.

It's likely they contribute just enough to keep things afloat long enough to get Downloads to take hold more firmly ... ;)

You mean typical for me, where I address the points, or typical for you where you attack the post?rdjam, I mean typical in that you ignore all of the reasons I gave for considering the website propaganda and attack me instead. Personally I would love it if you would start addressing points in my post since as much as you state that you do you rarely get around to actually doing it.


Because they may not want to be attacked by people like you for talking their views.Are you really suggesting that no one will defend your website because they fear that I will disagree with them? Somehow I find that to be highly unlikely considering how many of them are quite happy to disagree with me on other issues related to the format war.


Rest assured that there are now Five Thousand, Eight Hundred (5,800) people who have signed the petition on that site. I don't think I need you to tell me whether the initiative has any support.5,800 signatures is not quite the same thing as 5,800 people. Also that petition was on having the Blu-ray studios release on HD DVD and it was not on how many people thought that your website was objective.


News Flash: There's a format war. Pot, meet Kettle - you act like you don't do the same of HD DVD.First off you just admitted that what I said was true. Secondly I don't do the same as you. I am a strong Blu-ray supporter but for the most part I just say positive things about Blu-ray. I try to avoid attacking HD DVD, which I consider to be a good video format, and have nothing against Toshiba. To be blunt there is a world of difference between us in how we view the other HD format and those that made it.


If there was anything outright wrong at the time of writing, any interested party has the right to inform us as we have given Phone, Email and other contacts and invited such feedback. If you're saying that you just don't like some of what you have read there, then thanks for your feedback.I would be happy to make a list sometime in the next week explaining what on that website is either highly biased or factually incorrect. I really don't see much changing because of it but maybe it will at least better explain why I consider that website to be propaganda.


Sorry you won't be able to continue to infer that I don't know what I'm talking about,Not every question is an attack and sometimes it really is just a question asked out of curiosity.


If I intended to tell you that information, I would have.rdjam, you state something as a fact and than when you are asked for proof you say you have it but say you can't tell us what it is. Technically that is against forum rules since you are supposed to either cite the facts on which you base your post or state that it is your opinion. Also I notice that you never did reply to my question about triple layer HD DVD combo discs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9648066&&#post9648066). Personally I am still somewhat curious to know how many of those have been released.


"I truly don't understand" your feigned surprise when we both know that insiders have already stated it is being submitted?That is not quite what was said. Toshiba has not submitted TL51 to the DVD Forum and supposedly they are planning to do that sometime late this year. In my opinion that sounds very similar to TL HD DVD which in May of 2005 was also supposed to be added to the HD DVD specs before the end of the year.


Oh well, I suppose it's just part of your ongoing strategy to try to create doubt for anything I say.Not at all, I only go after the statements you make that I consider highly suspicious or are factually incorrect. I have never gone after any of your statements simply because you posted them.


Your role on this forum often seems to be to undermine the credibility of opposing posters, even the most solid people like Amir.The only one who ever hurt Amir's credibility on certain topics was Amir. For instance he posted many times over the last two years that MPEG-4 AVC was incapable of encoding fine detail. A claim that turned out to be completely wrong based on what we have actually seen from MPEG-4 AVC encodings. Don't be so quick to decide that Amir was a poor innocent insider and that I was out to get him. The simple truth is that he is an insider who said many things that turned out to be wrong on certain topics and that over time I became very skeptical of his posts on those topics because of that.

Isn't it really that simple?

All in all, no one has put up nearly the amount of money Sony has to win the format war, not even close.


Both companies have proven much more conservative towards 'investing' money in the dvd format war than Sony no? MS 'invested' several billion to get in the game console business and it appears that most signs point to fiscal conservativism these days.

As I watch this play out, I have to admit that the promotional end of things is somewhat baffling. If I were deeply invested in HD-DVD, that is beyond simply owning a player and a few movies, I'd be feeling a little hung-out-to-dry as I watched Sony spill millions on PR, because they really have been hammering hard.

I can see Toshiba not having the green to put on a similar show, but you gotta wonder what Microsoft is thinking.

Still, though our passions run high on this stuff, we are in the fallow post holiday doldrums right now. New products get unveiled now, but not aggressively marketed. However, last week Toshiba's A2 and XA2 players hit the street, and they had bought the Sunday paper Best Buy and Circut City ads that Sony had been.

I have to again fall back on the notion that this whole biz is moving a lot more slowly than tech-punditry would have it go.

Whew - A long post but short on anything new.

Look, no one's going to win anything by debating like this. I've acknowledged your statement that you don't like my site or my campaign, but indicated that your complaints about me being an advocate of HD DVD are "like the pot calling the kettle black" (I was not refering to personal attacks as you try to infer in your reply). Continually referring to information or statements you don't agree with as "propoganda" doesn't make them go away. It takes a more objective approach.

Your claim below that you don't try to knock the HD DVD format probably has some people at home rolling on the floor. I'm straight up. I'm not going to "pretend" I don't say it how I see it with Bluray. I'm not going to apologise for being harsh on Bluray either - I think the format deserves it for all the problems that still haven't been fixed and for not being ready for prime time. And I'm not going lie and deny that I don't give it a good, hard Kick right up the tail now and then. One day you may even thank me for keeping it honest and on its toes.

As an example, just LOOK at all the Bluray titles being delayed by BDJ development problems right now... It is yet another symptom that is so typical of a format that is all talk, but is not finished building yet. And it's just so typical that not only do these continuing development problems with Bluray get to screw up Warner's Bluray releases, but now they are screwing up HD DVD releases as well! And because certain BD folks were upset that Warner was churning out so many HD DVD releases, because HD DVD was easier to produce IME for.

It's a free country and good debates on this site are encouraged, but they are better when they are less emotional. You're entitled to your view, and others are entitled to theirs. There are nearly 6,000 supporters of the Petition so far. You say you want them to come here and defend the site. Hello? Hellooo? I suspect most of them have better things to do than come here and get into online squabbles over their choice. Or they may just feel that I'm a big boy who can probably take care of myself. ;)

But's it's interesting that you say that I ignored all your points, since I took care to address them all individually, as anyone who has followed the thread can see. But forgive me if I don't answer the same questions repeatedly in that circular, repetitive fashion. If you are trying to get reactions beyond that you won't succeed, I'm afraid. Is it not a waste of time telling me how much of a "difference there is between you and me", as you do halfway through the post? I don't see how it's relevant to an objective discussion, myself.

Re: the TL-51 HD DVDs - The disc is being submitted to the DVD Forum now. I feel that means it'll become part of the spec this year and you feel that means it'll become part of the spec next year. We've each already stated our opinions and clearly disagree. Does it serve any purpose to just keep repeating over and over that you disagree? Hardly. Neither of us are going to change our mind, and one of us is going to post a link to this thread at Christmas or before and remind the other, so at least the correct one of us will be satisfied at some point.

Re: Amir - the guy posts some of the most useful and helpful information that is available about the two formats on this, or indeed any other forums. You can't pretend that you don't go out of your way to attack his credibility on a continual basis, nor claim that "it's not you, it's him". I won't name names out of respect for the forum decorum, but there's an equivalent insider on the BD camp who regularly "mistates" facts and misleads readers on an almost continuous daily basis (normally) and as a result he doesn't have a fraction of the respect from people here that Amir does.

Amir and his team have spent a lot of hours (years, even) building what is widely acknowledged as the best HD encoder available right now. I suppose it's easy for idle bystanders with nothing in the game to knock him. I don't know how, because a year or two ago he said AVC doesn't do as good a job at encoding fine noise as VC1, you can somehow claim to have the expertise to call him a liar? What are you on? After all, even Sony said AVC wasn't good enough - and then they promptly set out to prove that MPEG2 was, without a doubt, the absolute best encoder for producing the mostest and bestest video noise of all! ;p

In closing, I'd like to state my opinion that this has been one of the more lucid and objective posts on this thread for for the entire century. :) I expect it may be dissembled into another 10 or 12 part response, but I'm at peace with what I've outlined here in keeping with the topic of the "format battle" discussion thread.

Peace.

rdjam, I mean typical in that you ignore all of the reasons I gave for considering the website propaganda and attack me instead. Personally I would love it if you would start addressing points in my post since as much as you state that you do you rarely get around to actually doing it. Are you really suggesting that no one will defend your website because they fear that I will disagree with them? Somehow I find that to be highly unlikely considering how many of them are quite happy to disagree with me on other issues related to the format war. 5,800 signatures is not quite the same thing as 5,800 people. Also that petition was on having the Blu-ray studios release on HD DVD and it was not on how many people thought that your website was objective. First off you just admitted that what I said was true. Secondly I don't do the same as you. I am a strong Blu-ray supporter but for the most part I just say positive things about Blu-ray. I try to avoid attacking HD DVD, which I consider to be a good video format, and have nothing against Toshiba. To be blunt there is a world of difference between us in how we view the other HD format and those that made it. I would be happy to make a list sometime in the next week explaining what on that website is either highly biased or factually incorrect. I really don't see much changing because of it but maybe it will at least better explain why I consider that website to be propaganda. Not every question is an attack and sometimes it really is just a question asked out of curiosity. rdjam, you state something as a fact and than when you are asked for proof you say you have it but say you can't tell us what it is. Technically that is against forum rules since you are supposed to either cite the facts on which you base your post or state that it is your opinion. Also I notice that you never did reply to my question about triple layer HD DVD combo discs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9648066&&#post9648066). Personally I am still somewhat curious to know how many of those have been released. That is not quite what was said. Toshiba has not submitted TL51 to the DVD Forum and supposedly they are planning to do that sometime late this year. In my opinion that sounds very similar to TL HD DVD which in May of 2005 was also supposed to be added to the HD DVD specs before the end of the year. Not at all, I only go after the statements you make that I consider highly suspicious or are factually incorrect. I have never gone after any of your statements simply because you posted them. The only one who ever hurt Amir's credibility on certain topics was Amir. For instance he posted many times over the last two years that MPEG-4 AVC was incapable of encoding fine detail. A claim that turned out to be completely wrong based on what we have actually seen from MPEG-4 AVC encodings. Don't be so quick to decide that Amir was a poor innocent insider and that I was out to get him. The simple truth is that he is an insider who said many things that turned out to be wrong on certain topics and that over time I became very skeptical of his posts on those topics because of that.

Achieved by: zero extras on the disc and no lossless audio. And who knows, maybe it could've looked even better on a BD50?

That wasn't the question. What I was responding to (and had even quoted) was:

We still haven't seen the 3hour + epics, have we? The longest that is coming to mind is Spartacus on HD-DVD and that was not well received...

King Kong was 3+ hours, and very well receieved.

Thanks for a level headed response. :) I'm sure the goal is not to stick with MPEG2, more and more releases will be VC-1 or AVC. And true, for most movies, you don't need 50GB for excellent PQ. But again, why would you limit a brand new format, built for the future, because "most" movies might not need it today? It just makes no sense whatsoever.

You do have longer movies. You have TV series. You have sets of movies. You have TONS of HD extras. You have all kind of new and fancy interactive content. There are plenty of reasons why 50GB will come in handy, even when not publishing movies using MPEG2. Sometimes you'll use 25GB, sometimes 35GB, sometimes 45GB, sometimes 50GB. The point is, if you need it, the space is there. (Why did Toshiba come up with TL-51? Obviously there is a reason? Don't even get me started on the reason for picking 51GB... My goodness. :o )

I did NOT choose Blu-ray solely because of disc size. I chose Blu-ray because of studio support, because I see it as the better technology, because the PS3 has it built in etc.

And, I am not convinced the future will be dominated by BD50's. What I like is that the option is there, when it is needed. No need to skimp on this or that to cram it into 25GB or 30GB. And yes, I do prefer to have it all on one disc. Call me lazy...

Of course, what remains to be seen is how the studios will actually utilize this space, production capacity as more and more buy into Blu-ray etc. I'm sure there will be issues, but I'm in this for the long haul. I've chosen my side, and I stand by it. YMMV. :)

I agree with much of what you said. Not all of course, as I've made a different choice for myself. :)

I will post more on this in the future as I have a number of ideas that I want to write down and assemble into an overview of this subject. Unfortunately I don't have regular Internet access at the moment and am tied up with other things.

PS3 form factor is the least game consol-ish yet. Sometimes I do think Sony is missing a great opportunity in putting an existing PS3 in a chassis like their JDM BDZ-V9/7 BD/DVR. Though, speaking of which, I'd say the PS3 has as great a likelyhood of fitting in as either of these with the Panny not far off. They could put in 3.5" drives and include your sacred front display and buttons, though hopefully they'd still hide them behind the rather trick moving translucent faceplate. ;)

I did say form factor aside, you know. ;)

Most HT people are looking to HIDE the buttons, dim and/or disable the displays, etc since they're rarely, if ever, used. The PS3 does that excellently (since it doesn't have any). :D

Most of the pictures I've seen here have the gear in a rack with a door or facing away from the screen and/or viewer. Not having a display at all is a little annoying, and something that people have come to expect. While you may argue it's usefulness, even high end gear have them. And I find time counters useful.



Only until Harmony comes out with a new remote with both Bluetooth and IR. And probably a top end model that has RF, as well as the other two. Sony could even beat them to the punch with their own Remote Commander line...

And since this is a future scenario, and conjecture at that (unless there's a Harmony announcement I'm unaware of?), it supports my point that it does not integrate well with theater setups today.

So all Sony needs to do is a put a tiny monochrome display and a rectangular case and you'll concede the PS3 is a great HT platform?

Well, and the remote thing. And pare down the interface so that you don't have to deal with the game stuff. But most assuredly I think the PS3 is an excellent A/V performer. It wouldn't hurt my feeligs to see a Cell/SonyOS based player an more so than my current Intel/Linux bsed HD DVD player does. Or the newly announced Broadcom/WinCE platform. As a matter of fact, leave the game-playing half of the unit out altogether and make it faster, smaller and cheaper.



Funny... I didn't have to push ANY buttons to watch Flyboys last night. PS3 on standby, put BD in, watch movie (guess I did push play on the remote and pause once for to grab a drink). Then pressed the embossed eject "button" when movie was done, and pressed the embossed power button to turn it off. :shrug: If my wife couldn't figure that out, I'd have larger problems, I think. :o

I see. And Whn you hit a single button on your remote, it fired up your projector, switched the right input, powered on your AVR, selected it's correct input, selected your desired surround mode and processing, fired up your PS3, started the movie, and dimmed your lights?

And when you hit pause on your universal remote, it paused your PS3 and brought up the lights?

And your remote doesn't look suspiciously like a game controller without a backlit display and dedcated nor labeled transport buttons?

Cool! :rolleyes:

A dedicated scaler is completely different to using the CPU to scale.

Yes, a CPU is hardware. But since when is a software scaler called a hardware scaler just because the software runs on a CPU?

And, BTW, I'm not knocking Intel here, archibael, but no software scaler I've ever run across can match dedicated hardware scalers like the Gennum or Realta.

Have you read about or played with ffdshow or DScaler?

Well I didn't see anything on your site that limited the teams to that, but I can tell you that Samsung, RCA and Phillips certainly do.

Can you please provide a link to the RCA Blu-Ray player.

The Philips is made by Samsung just as the Sony is made by Pioneer.

That wasn't the question. What I was responding to (and had even quoted) was:



King Kong was 3+ hours, and very well receieved.

"Kingdom Of Heaven" was over 3 hours and was very well received as well.
PS: it has lossless audio.

"Black Hawk Down": 2 hours 24 min, extras, interactive and lossless audio.

I see. And Whn you hit a single button on your remote, it fired up your projector, switched the right input, powered on your AVR, selected it's correct input, selected your desired surround mode and processing, fired up your PS3, started the movie, and dimmed your lights?

And when you hit pause on your universal remote, it paused your PS3 and brought up the lights?

And your remote doesn't look suspiciously like a game controller without a backlit display and dedcated nor labeled transport buttons?

I seriously doubt the remote you refer to does this for $24.99 either. Apples to apples please.

So has BD officially changed it's name to "Blu-Ray Disc"? I know they have been faulted for their name not being as cut-and-dry as the self-explanatory "HD-DVD".

PS: it has lossless audio.

Where is the objective evidence that it matters in the context of concurrent video presentation in the form of watching a movie?

Have you read about or played with ffdshow or DScaler?
I've PM'd you

That's "Blu-ray" (little "r") and "HD DVD" (no hyphen). :cool:

only the uninteligent ones that don't do their research but listen to HD DVD fan boys. Do some research on PS3 and IR

I assume you are talking about the older IR brick that works on the PS3?

I'd be willing to bet that given that it's a hack with hardware not designed or marketed for the PS3, that the vast majority of folks doing Home Theater integration are not going to come across that info, nor are they going to be particularly thrilled with it for a few reasons.

Now if you want to say that folks looking for a supported Blu Ray integration solution for their HT and don't manage to find that setup are "uninteligent"[sic], then I think you've insulted a pretty broad set of folks.

I handled it.

Thanks for the help!

Cheers,
Randy Stewart

"Kingdom Of Heaven" was over 3 hours and was very well received as well.
PS: it has lossless audio.

"Black Hawk Down": 2 hours 24 min, extras, interactive and lossless audio.

And the contention was not that BR does not have any 3+ hour releases. It was (for the tird time):

We still haven't seen the 3hour + epics, have we? The longest that is coming to mind is Spartacus on HD-DVD and that was not well received...

This was a claim regarding HD DVD.

I seriously doubt the remote you refer to does this for $24.99 either. Apples to apples please.

Man, you have context issues almost as bad as some others here.

The claim was that the PS3 integrates well with Home Theaters. My contention is, that for a variety of reasosns, it does not. Working well with programmable remotes is one of them.

I believe you'll find that a good number of the remotes aimed at HT installs are: 1) not $24.99, and 2) not BlueTooth enabled.

Hence my conclusion that there is not great ease integrating a PS3 in to a typical HT setting.

Continually referring to information or statements you don't agree with as "propoganda" doesn't make them go away. It takes a more objective approach.I don't think anyone with a hint of objectivity would consider your list of Blu-ray reviews to be fair. I mean for goodness sakes you even edited them for maximum negativity.


I'm straight up. I'm not going to "pretend" I don't say it how I see it with Bluray.Come on rdjam from someone who actually suggested that Muslix was a BDA employee you go beyond merely stating a few opinions.


As an example, just LOOK at all the Bluray titles being delayed by BDJ development problems right now...Once again it is Blu-ray profiles not BD-J which is the issue behind PiP. For someone that so often attacks Blu-ray I can't believe you don't bother to learn about Blu-ray.


There are nearly 6,000 supporters of the Petition so far. You say you want them to come here and defend the site.No, what I said is that you couldn't use them to justify your website since they were only signing the petition. Also just my opinion but personally I doubt you have had even 3,000 actual people sign the petition.


But's it's interesting that you say that I ignored all your points, since I took care to address them all individually, as anyone who has followed the thread can see.Where did you answer my question for why you believed that some HD DVD players would be more compatible with TL51 than others? You stated that as a fact but you have yet to post any evidence for that. Also how many triple layer HD DVD combo discs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9648066&&#post9648066) have been released? You said that all HD DVD players can play it but how do you know that? Finally why is it that your website still states that software sales are 3 to 1 for HD DVD when they probably are now around 3 to 1 for Blu-ray? As of yet none of these questions have really been answered.


Re: the TL-51 HD DVDs - The disc is being submitted to the DVD Forum now.No, supposedly it will be submitted to the DVD Forum sometime near the end of the year (http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/003423.html).


I feel that means it'll become part of the spec this year and you feel that means it'll become part of the spec next year.Actually I believe it is nothing more than a marketing ploy and that Toshiba is not really planning to add it to the HD DVD specs.


Re: Amir - the guy posts some of the most useful and helpful information that is available about the two formats on this, or indeed any other forums. You can't pretend that you don't go out of your way to attack his credibility on a continual basis, nor claim that "it's not you, it's him".The slight problem with this is that it really was him that caused me to become skeptical of what he posted on certain topics. You can of course choose to believe everything he says but I have learned from experience to be skeptical when he posts about certain topics.


I don't know how, because a year or two ago he said AVC doesn't do as good a job at encoding fine noise as VC1, you can somehow claim to have the expertise to call him a liar?He said that MPEG-4 AVC was incapable of encoding fine detail, which he even posted several times last fall. We have a lot of evidence that is not true and as much as you may respect Amir at some point it would make sense to accept the fact that he was spreading FUD against it. I personally don't see why anyone would be surprised by that considering that MPEG-4 AVC is competing with VC-1.

Enough character assasination, already.

Raise the standard of your posts.I don't think anyone with a hint of objectivity
my opinion but personally I doubt you have had even 3,000 actual people sign the petition. Believe what you want.

Where did you answer my question for why you believed that some HD DVD players would be more compatible with TL51 than others? I did answer - I told you I would not tell you. I don't care if you don't like the answer - but stating that I didn't answer is rich.

You stated that as a fact but you have yet to post any evidence for that. Also how many triple layer HD DVD combo discs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9648066&&#post9648066) have been released?Are you quite OK? Everyone knows that it was just recently announced. http://oto-online.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=102&Itemid=43

You said that all HD DVD players can play it but how do you know that? http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060911-7712.html

Finally why is it that your website still states that software sales are 3 to 1 for HD DVD when they probably are now around 3 to 1 for Blu-ray? It was accurate at the time it was written. Tough nuggy. While it may not be 3-1 HD DVD at the current time, you're statement that it is the reverse is wishful thinking.

[quote]As of yet none of these questions have really been answered. No, supposedly it will be submitted to the DVD Forum sometime near the end of the year (http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/003423.html)It's funny the way you accuse people of being dishonest but have a hard time accurately re-stating basic sentences. Toshiba said it would be submitted within 2007. Only you and others like you have trumpeted that to mean "at the end of 2007" - http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/314741.html

And enough with the personal attacks on Amir. Seek extracurricular activities.

As I watch this play out, I have to admit that the promotional end of things is somewhat baffling. If I were deeply invested in HD-DVD, that is beyond simply owning a player and a few movies, I'd be feeling a little hung-out-to-dry as I watched Sony spill millions on PR, because they really have been hammering hard.

I can see Toshiba not having the green to put on a similar show, but you gotta wonder what Microsoft is thinking.



I don't think MS has decided exactly how much to commit ($$) to the hd-dvd effort. Their investment is relatively conservative. Sony on the other hand has a corporate wide commitment to blu-ray. Not suprising considering how much each stands to gain in each case.

The success of BD could impact the console race down the line and the adoption of the PS3 widespread could impact a lot of things down the road. So how is MS thinking here, long term, or shortterm?

It's likely they contribute just enough to keep things afloat long enough to get Downloads to take hold more firmly ... ;)

Firmly for HD downloads looks like a good market but still has quite a few hurdles before it could be a mainstream solution. There will likely be plenty of competition in that space too.

Enough character assasination, already.
I've found it quite useful to put such posters on ignore. They very seldom contribute anything substantial, and it makes the forum much more enjoyable.

I've found it quite useful to put such posters on ignore. They very seldom contribute anything substantial, and it makes the forum much more enjoyable.
Sigh.. you're probably right... I've never had to before, but maybe.

TL-51 will be added to the HD DVD spec, within 2007, and will carry HD DVD movies to consumers. I expect that some BR elements in the DVD Forum will try hard to stop this from happening, but it will happen.

*bump* If you answered already, I apologize.

How many of the current HD DVD players do you think will be able to play back TL-51 discs, a) reading the third layer, b) handle the proposed 50% increased bandwidth?

*How many of the current HD DVD players do you think will be able to play back TL-51 discs, a) reading the third layer, b) handle the proposed 50% increased bandwidth?Pardon me for jumping in, but I think that that is a very interesting question -- of which I would expect only a Toshiba engineer could answer. Otherwise we are just guessing. Guesses (as to what might happen after a TL51 firmware upgrade is made available to users):

1. The first gen Toshiba standalones (A1, D1, RCA .. XA1) with the NEC HR-1100A drive might need a nigh perfect drive (optical alignment, clean optics, etc). NEC marketing material did make reference to TL45 so some such capability might have been designed into the drive. If the drive is not up to snuff then the user would have to send the player to Toshiba service for a "tune up" ;) This might be a golden opportunity for those who have problem players with skipping to get that problem fixed also. Toshiba might go this refurbishment path on their own nickel in order to help win the Format War.

The electronics should be ok since the same Broadcom chip was used for the Samsung BD player which had the higher bitrates.

2. The second gen players (360HDAO, A2, E1, A20, XA2, XE1) had some hardware design requirements for TL51 built in since Toshiba had been working on TL45/TL51 for some time and Toshiba is making the drives for these players (except for the new Lite On drives going to be used in the 360HDAO). After an upgrade with the TL51 firmware most of these players work fine with TL51's. But since TL51 requires the most out of the drive, some (smaller % than 1st gen) players may have problems that require Toshiba service/refurbishment.

Just some IMHO optimistic SWAGs. :D

If the above scenario proves wrong then the DVD Forum approval is less of a sure thing -- again IMHO YMMV.

Edit: BTW spinning faster for blue laser should not be an issue since the drives have to spin faster anyway when playing red laser HD-9's.

I don't think MS has decided exactly how much to commit ($$) to the hd-dvd effort. Their investment is relatively conservative. Sony on the other hand has a corporate wide commitment to blu-ray. Not suprising considering how much each stands to gain in each case.

The success of BD could impact the console race down the line and the adoption of the PS3 widespread could impact a lot of things down the road. So how is MS thinking here, long term, or shortterm?


Well, at this point it could be both or either.

I'm not convinced Sony's dump of major coin at this juncture isn't peeing in the wind. They affected the numbers, but what numbers? Adoption and awareness of both formats combined still hasn't amounted to a hill of beans outside of a tiny margin of enthusiasts.

It's inevitable that PS3 would cause a spike in Blu-ray sales (the movies not the stand-alone players), but I'd argue that for all their efforts BD is no more common knowledge than UMD, at triple the marketing effort.

Microsoft may simply be being shrewd, I'm sure they aren't in any way oblivious to developments that even we are unaware of, and they tend toward the looong range plan. I find it hard to imagine them just letting this drift out of their hands forever.

Toshiba might go this refurbishment path on their own nickel in order to help win the Format War.Toshiba won't win this format war. IMO the best they can do at this point is to stick around until the next format comes along. Blu-ray isn't going away.

Toshiba won't win this format war. IMO the best they can do at this point is to stick around until the next format comes along. Blu-ray isn't going away.

But winning doesn't necessarily mean the losing sides "goes away." It simply becomes the dominate brand while the other may or may not exist in it's shadow.

How long did it take the whole VCR/Betamax war to die?

How long did it take the whole VCR/Betamax war to die?

Not really directly comparable. A big part of VHS/Beta sales were the use of those units for OTA recordings, so even after Beta "died" you could get the decks and tapes for years as people continued using their Beta machines to record programs.

Rental and new sales of Beta movies died I believe around 86-87.

Rental and new sales of Beta movies died I believe around 86-87.

Ended in 86-87, when did it start? Sorry I dont know my vcr history very well :)

Toshiba won't win this format war. IMO the best they can do at this point is to stick around until the next format comes along. Blu-ray isn't going away.


It will if it loses to DVD. There is every possibility BD will be kept a low-volume connoisseurs format, and never pull out of range of the heavily subsidized to highly profitable.

There have been many attempts to better the good-old-CD for audio, but they've failed to penetrate. Not because they didn't sound better, but because people were content and invested in what they had.

VHS VS Beta was different, because what proceeded them? Nothing. HD or BD don't have that luxury or novelty.

Sony is counting on this to be something other than just the laserdisc of our time. Good luck.

Ended in 86-87, when did it start? Sorry I dont know my vcr history very well :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotape_format_war

1984 was Betamax best year but by 1986 sales had dwindled to just 7.5% of VHS sales and most studios stopped producing movies shortly after 1986.

Most of the pictures I've seen here have the gear in a rack with a door or facing away from the screen and/or viewer.


As has been noted, any "Home Theater" worth it's salt has all this stuff hidden away (the best setup I've seen personally, it was BEHIND the seating opposite the 133" screen).



And since this is a future scenario, and conjecture at that (unless there's a Harmony announcement I'm unaware of?), it supports my point that it does not integrate well with theater setups today.


Only if you insist on a single remote solution. It might be a large subset, but it IS a subset.



Well, and the remote thing. And pare down the interface so that you don't have to deal with the game stuff.

Already there coming from standby. I definitely agree that they need to get an Autoplay option (it most definitely needs to be an option that can be disabled, however) from the XMB.

Good to know, though. I can't wait for Harmony and/or Sony to have an integrated Bluetooth / IR solution for you to come on board. :)


But most assuredly I think the PS3 is an excellent A/V performer. It wouldn't hurt my feeligs to see a Cell/SonyOS based player an more so than my current Intel/Linux bsed HD DVD player does. Or the newly announced Broadcom/WinCE platform. As a matter of fact, leave the game-playing half of the unit out altogether and make it faster, smaller and cheaper.


Well that stuff has already been done, and I can't see the additional memory being a huge cost adder (and Sony is putting the XMB on all their stuff anyway). Certainly given the retail pricing of the JDM DVR's, PS3 game functions should be the cheapest part.



I see. And Whn you hit a single button on your remote, it fired up your projector, switched the right input, powered on your AVR, selected it's correct input, selected your desired surround mode and processing, fired up your PS3, started the movie, and dimmed your lights?


BZZT, penalty called for change of subject. I know Toshiba HD-DVD don't do any of that and neither does my 360. Or are you beating the remote dead horse again? :eek:

To be specific, the TV was already on (wifey was watching TV). Lights were already dimmed (they usually are). I turned on the receiver (it hasn't left the PS3 input much recently, anyway), and I only pushed the enter button to play the movie. :)


And your remote doesn't look suspiciously like a game controller without a backlit display and dedcated nor labeled transport buttons?


No my remote is black and looks nothing like the SIXAXIS outside of the color. It does have the triangle/square/PS button, etc, though. ;)

And the contention was not that BR does not have any 3+ hour releases.

For someone talking about context, you seem to have some issues yourself. :p


I haven't seen any three hour and eight minute titles on Bluray yet, extras or not.

:o


This was a claim regarding HD DVD.


That was me and it was my bad. I have the Kong HD-DVD (and Troy, as well), but they weren't coming to mind (as mentioned). I've fortunately passed on Spartacus since the HD-DVD is apparently inferior to my Criterion DVD release in just about every way possible.

Dances With Wolves is actually a BD-50 (as I also posted in the news thread):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9664793&&#post9664793

How many different HD DVD variations are there now?

What has been announced - I think;

-SL 15
-DL 30
-Hybrid (one or two layers each side)
-twin (hybrid one or two HD layers, one dvd layer all on one side)
-TL 45
-Total HD with BR

So assuming it works, can the TL be a hybrid? Can it be a twin? Can Warner's be a Twin? Can Warner's Total have TL on one side?


Ignoring manufacturing fallout and player compatability with everything (those are silly little technical issues that we should obviously ignore), won't all of this be insanely confusing to both the studios and the consumers?

I imagine the studios will get cheat sheets on when to use each one and how and what the minimum criteria and maximum ability of each is, but think of the poor consumer!!!

SL, DL, and TL don't really matter since you just pop the disc in and hit play. Will Twin's and Hybrid's be labelled on the box differently? If not, will it confuse people that sometimes the DVD side on the opposite side? If yes, will it confuse people in general just 'cause it is weird?

If hybrid's/twin's become ubiquitous, what will be the explanation if TL is used and suddenly it isn't there? Will someone buy them with the expectation of being able to play on their DVD player and the get pissed off when they can't?

If Warner's Total HD disc and Universal's hybrid disc look the exact same, is that going to cause even more confusion?" Why can't I play this disc in my DVD player like that other HD disc?", "Why can't I play my disc in my BluRay player like my other HD disc?"

Choice is often good, but sometimes it can be too much. People complain how poor of a job BluRay has done in explaining their profiles, but I can just imagine when mass audience has to field all of this what kind of fun it will be. The number one reason DVD-10 and DVD-18 were largely put out to pasture wasn't from manufacturing issues, but because the average consumer needs a big flag to see which side should be up.


So far, it is pretty straightforward. BluRay movies over here. HD DVD movies over there. And sales droids are still having trouble explaining the differences and why some movies are available on both and some not.

How long did it take the whole VCR/Betamax war to die?Not really directly comparable.Agreed. Think more along the lines of DVD-R and DVD+R. Eventually players will play all the formats, so it won't matter what you buy now. Unfortunately, the universal players are just getting started and aren't great and are still far too expensive.

Toshiba won't win this format war. IMO the best they can do at this point is to stick around until the next format comes along. Blu-ray isn't going away.Sorry I beg to differ. I think, IMO, that player price makes the difference. BTW it helps in these threads to try to back one's opinions up with logical arguments. ;)

I was excited about both DVD-A and SACD but waited to buy a standalone (before just used computer soundcard Audigy played DVD-A's) till I could get a $299 universal player as a store return for $150 (Toshiba SD-6915). I will gladly buy a universal BD/HD DVD player at that price also -- but that might take a couple years :D . In the meantime I got quite too excited about experiencing high definition video to resist the Toshiba HD DVD player siren calls. But I will be the first to admit that my audiophile/videophile pretentions are not common. :o

But as to who will win the BD/HD DVD Format War -- IMO it is no contest. The first to make $199 standalone players. And with the lower disc production costs. HD DVD is on target to win both. Low cost SoC chinese players and low cost upgrades of existing DVD replication lines. Basic economics per my Big10 education. YMMV.

I'm not convinced Sony's dump of major coin at this juncture isn't peeing in the wind. They affected the numbers, but what numbers? Adoption and awareness of both formats combined still hasn't amounted to a hill of beans outside of a tiny margin of enthusiasts.



Well BD has certainly hurt the PS3 in short term so if peeing in the wind is bad at this juncture in the long term it would be a downright disaster to sacrifice the Playstation brand dominance for a niche market.

'Major coin' is not put up to gain a niche.

Microsoft may simply be being shrewd, I'm sure they aren't in any way oblivious to developments that even we are unaware of, and they tend toward the looong range plan. I find it hard to imagine them just letting this drift out of their hands forever.

The conservative approach could be shrewd.

Could just be a way to hedge until they gauge the right amount of investment to throw at hd optical. Amir is taking a poll in the hd-dvd board for the Xbox team after all, so someone must be paying attention at MS...

Sorry I beg to differ. I think, IMO, that player price makes the difference. BTW it helps in these threads to try to back one's opinions up with logical arguments. ;)

I was excited about both DVD-A and SACD but waited to buy a standalone (before just used computer soundcard Audigy played DVD-A's) till I could get a $299 universal player as a store return for $150 (Toshiba SD-6915). I will gladly buy a universal BD/HD DVD player at that price also -- but that might take a couple years :D . In the meantime I got quite too excited about experiencing high definition video to resist the Toshiba HD DVD player siren calls. But I will be the first to admit that my audiophile/videophile pretentions are not common. :o

But as to who will win the BD/HD DVD Format War -- IMO it is no contest. The first to make $199 standalone players. And with the lower disc production costs. HD DVD is on target to win both. Low cost SoC chinese players and low cost upgrades of existing DVD replication lines. Basic economics per my Big10 education. YMMV.I think most people here would agree with me that the format with the largest available library of titles and more of the latest blockbusters being released will win or have the best shot of winning the war. Sony's studios won't stop releasing Blu-ray discs anytime soon. Certainly having a lower player price will make a difference in greater purchases of players. But guns are worthless without bullets to shoot.

Luckily, you won't have to wait long for low cost HD DVD players. I'm sure you'll be seeing Toshiba players yellow-tagged for $50 on BB's clearance rack real soon. :p

I think most people here would agree with me that the format with the largest available library of titles and more of the latest blockbusters being released will win or have the best shot of winning the war.

That would be an erroneous assumption

Sony's studios won't stop releasing Blu-ray discs anytime soon.

The same could be said of Universal and the other studios releasing content on HD-DVD.

Certainly having a lower player price will make a difference in greater purchases of players.

Uh, yeah.

But guns are worthless without bullets to shoot.

Oh, I'd say there are plenty of arrows left in the HD-DVD quiver.

Luckily, you won't have to wait long for low cost HD DVD players. I'm sure you'll be seeing Toshiba players yellow-tagged for $50 on BB's clearance rack real soon. :p

Try to calm yourself. Neither of these formats are going anywhere "real soon."

That would be an erroneous assumption Oh? Were you also one of those people predicting the PS3 would only be used for gaming too? Content is King!The same could be said of Universal and the other studios releasing content on HD-DVD. Sony's studios will keep Blu-ray alive. But once HD DVD is on life support look for Universal to make like Michael Schiavo and pull the plug.Oh, I'd say there are plenty of arrows left in the HD-DVD quiver. Too bad so sad they don't have Legolas Greenleaf's quiver 'cause they're about to run out of arrows.Try to calm yourself. Neither of these formats are going anywhere "real soon."Time is Absolute, and Relative, But Never Universal.

Enough character assasination, already.Personally I don't consider posting the truth to be character assassination. I don't have anything personal against Amir and I appreciate the facts that he has posted on this forum. I just know from experience that he tends to be less than factual on certain topics.


I did answer - I told you I would not tell you.Which is not much of an answer.


Are you quite OK? Everyone knows that it was just recently announced. http://oto-online.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=102&Itemid=43.rdjam, there is no need for rudeness and in that article (http://oto-online.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=102&Itemid=43) you posted it says that it is/was a proposal. Can you provide evidence that it was accepted into the HD DVD specs and that all current HD DVD players can play it?


http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060911-7712.htmlThe press release (http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2006_09/pr1101.htm) that article refers to says that it is/was being proposed to the DVD Forum.


It was accurate at the time it was written. Tough nuggy.rdjam, why than did you say that you were open to suggestions for your website if you don't actually care if your information is up to date?


While it may not be 3-1 HD DVD at the current time, you're statement that it is the reverse is wishful thinking.I made sure to state that as a guess and we do know for a fact that they were 2 to 1, or higher, for Blu-ray for the first few weeks of January. As such it just seems a tad misleading to continue to state that sales were 3 to 1 for HD DVD on the main page of your website when it is several months out of date.


It's funny the way you accuse people of being dishonest but have a hard time accurately re-stating basic sentences. Toshiba said it would be submitted within 2007. Only you and others like you have trumpeted that to mean "at the end of 2007".Once again no need for rudeness and all the articles I have read stated it will be proposed sometime at the end of the year. If you have any evidence that indicates that it will be proposed soon I would be interested to see it.

Personally I don't consider posting the truth to be character assassination. I don't have anything personal against Amir and I appreciate the facts that he has posted on this forum. I just know from experience that he tends to be less than factual on certain topics.You mean you aren't gullible enough to believe that the rule of thumb for VC-1 encodes is now about 9-12Mbps like Amir's claims in the thread he started here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=718689

in September work out to be and that the reason he wouldn't answer questions about it with a straight answer is because they weren't put nicely enough? Even though Amir has told us what an expert he is on this subject? :) Maybe the fact that it has been over 5 months and we can now check some bitrates with an XBOX360 add-on connected to a PC and see that his claim hasn't come true gets in the way of your believing that stuff, but doesn't stop others from believing that Amir was right and wasn't being deceptive, despite the evidence to the contrary. rdjam seemed to believe it hook, line, and sinker given that he posted that most VC-1 encodes on HD DVD are under 12Mbps (which isn't true) and later modified it to most recent ones are under 12Mbps (which also isn't true).

--Darin

Agreed. Think more along the lines of DVD-R and DVD+R. Eventually players will play all the formats, so it won't matter what you buy now. Unfortunately, the universal players are just getting started and aren't great and are still far too expensive.
It's unlikely the PS3 or the 360 add-on will ever play the alternate format. Since they are by far the largest sellers in their respective markets it's unlikely we'll see much convergance this time round. I suspect one or more of the formats will simply die off.

You mean you aren't gullible enough to believe that the rule of thumb for VC-1 encodes is now about 9-12Mbps like Amir's claims in the thread he started here:
How dare you criticize the mighty Amir! Even when he's wrong he's right, don't ya know. And besides, he's just an enthusiast like all of us on here. That's all... ;)

http://www.hdgamedb.com/amazon/history.aspx?TYPE=10&SPAN=14

Looking grim for one side; great for the other ...

As has been noted, any "Home Theater" worth it's salt has all this stuff hidden away (the best setup I've seen personally, it was BEHIND the seating opposite the 133" screen).




Only if you insist on a single remote solution. It might be a large subset, but it IS a subset.




Already there coming from standby. I definitely agree that they need to get an Autoplay option (it most definitely needs to be an option that can be disabled, however) from the XMB.

Good to know, though. I can't wait for Harmony and/or Sony to have an integrated Bluetooth / IR solution for you to come on board. :)



Well that stuff has already been done, and I can't see the additional memory being a huge cost adder (and Sony is putting the XMB on all their stuff anyway). Certainly given the retail pricing of the JDM DVR's, PS3 game functions should be the cheapest part.




BZZT, penalty called for change of subject. I know Toshiba HD-DVD don't do any of that and neither does my 360. Or are you beating the remote dead horse again? :eek:

To be specific, the TV was already on (wifey was watching TV). Lights were already dimmed (they usually are). I turned on the receiver (it hasn't left the PS3 input much recently, anyway), and I only pushed the enter button to play the movie. :)



No my remote is black and looks nothing like the SIXAXIS outside of the color. It does have the triangle/square/PS button, etc, though. ;)

All of your comments ignore the fact that it's generally what Home Theater integrators expect today. Game consoles simply don't do them well. That includes the 360 HD DVD add-on. I'm not making this a format issue. I'm disageeing with the poster who said that the PS3 integrates well with HT's. I disagree.

And incidentally, my HD A2 does exactly what I laid out in my single-button push scenario.

http://www.hdgamedb.com/amazon/history.aspx?TYPE=10&SPAN=14

Looking grim for one side; great for the other ...

Very, very depressing, :( but as I was just about to put my HD-DVDs in the CD slot of my shredder, a little voice started speaking to me.

"Did you notice that was only a two-week chart?"

"Did you notice it was top-ten sales, not overall sales"

"Did you remember that no new HD titles have streeted"

"Did you remember PS3 put a lot of players out in one burst?"

"Did you remember that A2 and XA2 streeted this week and are selling really well?"

Then as if by magic, or maybe common sense, I put my discs back and had leisurely breakfast. :p

For someone talking about context, you seem to have some issues yourself. :p

Originally Posted by rdjam
I haven't seen any three hour and eight minute titles on Bluray yet, extras or not.

:o



Then answer rdjam's LATER assertion of such.

I was responding to:

We still haven't seen the 3hour + epics, have we? The longest that is coming to mind is Spartacus on HD-DVD and that was not well received...

"Did you remember that no new HD titles have streeted"


The Amazon numbers aren't street sales. They represent overall popularity including pre-orders. So, unlike Videoscan which does measure street, the Amazon numbers show you the future trend.


"Did you remember that A2 and XA2 streeted this week and are selling really well?"


The A2 streeted this week? I thought it came out in mid-December and the XA2 at the end of December (both delayed from October). Why the shortages and delays?

Gary