Heh, now this is interesting...

http://www.geardigest.com/2007/02/14/eu_bans_dodgy_consumer_reviews/

Now that's a hoot. I guess now we will see MS suing Apple over the "Apple guy/PC guy" TV ads. :D

b2b

Looking at the last two BD-50 reviews on highdefdigest provides more food for thought.I would point out that reviewer at highdefdigest (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/sentinel2006.html) really didn't like the look of "The Sentinel" so he graded it poorly because of that. On the other hand the reviewer at hometheaterspot (http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/dvd-review.php?sequence=1848) didn't hold the look of the movie against it and he graded it well.


If it does pass approval, then I hope a lot of people shad-ap about GB, or will the BD 200 be the next must for a movie that only needed 30 with extras?Capacity nor bandwidth would be much of an issue in this format war if the TL51 specs were approved since it would increase both. The small problem though is that this looks a lot like a marketing ploy similar to the TL HD DVD announcements done back in May of 2005.

Now that's a hoot. I guess now we will see MS suing Apple over the "Apple guy/PC guy" TV ads. :D

b2b

Boy, sounds like a toothless tiger to me.

Maybe everyone will agree not to sue each other since deception is free, and lawsuits cost money.

Heh, now this is interesting...

http://www.geardigest.com/2007/02/14/eu_bans_dodgy_consumer_reviews/That is an incredibly broad law if that article is accurate about it since even employees who use products that their company makes will not legally be able to review those products on consumer websites.

This is just another perspective on deceptive advertising, so it might be applied here in the US as well. FTC anyone?

Boy, sounds like a toothless tiger to me.

Maybe everyone will agree not to sue each other since deception is free, and lawsuits cost money.

You're just going to see alot of reviews saying "This site is not for EU customers." if not basing it on a "select your region" thing before you even enter the site. If not more advanced source-IP/arin type inquiries on the server side...

Few people who want a HD DVD player would even consider buying a Xbox 360 and a HD DVD drive now. They'll just buy a standalone one. The only reason they might in the future is if they were already interested in the Xbox 360 anyway.

Exactly. I already had a 360 when I got the add-on. I'd never consider a 360+add-on as my entry vector into HDDVD, though. I *DO* believe that more than a few folks from these forums have considered the PS3 as their entry vector into Blu-ray, though. I myself would likely have waited on a PS3 until at least winter 2007 if it didn't have Blu-ray.

Saying that the price for HDDVD entry is $199 is very misleading unless one's limiting the HDDVD market to gamers (who already have the game console, since by definition a non-gamer wouldn't own a 360 prior to the add-on).

Does anybody know what happened to the Australia thread from this morning? I'd swear I posted in a thread about some store called "JB" announcing exclusive Blu-Ray support for Australia, but now I can't find it.

Did this thread get moved somewhere else?

Perhaps that thread was deleted due to its content not being healthy?

Saying that the price for HDDVD entry is $199 is very misleading unless one's limiting the HDDVD market to gamers (who already have the game console, since by definition a non-gamer wouldn't own a 360 prior to the add-on).I think that you may be neglecting many millions of PC owners in that generalisation. Let's not forget it can be used by them also.

I think making a statement like $199 entry price could well apply to very many consumers out there, not just gamers, although for PC owners that should probably be modified to $260, to account for the combination of a discounted Xbox HD addon player, along the PowerDVD Ultra Software.

I think that you may be neglecting many millions of PC owners in that generalisation. Let's not forget it can be used by them also.

I think making a statement like $199 entry price could well apply to very many consumers out there, not just gamers, although for PC owners that should probably be modified to $260, to account for the combination of a discounted Xbox HD addon player, along the PowerDVD Ultra Software.While I'm sure there are some, I wonder how powerful a PC it will take to play something like "Babel" (AVC/MPEG-4) reliably from that add-on. That could limit this audience somewhat.

--Darin

I think making a statement like $199 entry price could well apply to very many consumers out there, not just gamers, although for PC owners that should probably be modified to $260, to account for the combination of a discounted Xbox HD addon player, along the PowerDVD Ultra Software.

HTPC-users are a niche subset of the niche HD market right now. I doubt many, if any, are using the HTPC as the primary venue, either. I certainly think gamers are a larger population than HTPC'ers (who also aren't gamers). Besides, as you pointed out, they need to pay for their software player and still don't fit under the $199 entry price ( I myself got my add-on for $159 - thank you CC coupon), but for comparison purposes it's generally only fair IMO to count MSRP. I count my 360 premium + add-on as the same net expense as my 60GB PS3, for example.

To me, the advantage would be shown through better PQ. BD hasn't shown any advantage, and I kind of doubt it will, after all, the compressionists on both sides are supposedly achieving transparency to the master. BD will improve their eyesight?
Sure it will. ;) Well, they may claim to be achieving transparency, but are they really, on either side? It seems that the reviews always have some nitpick with each movie. I don't think we're quite there yet. So it remains to be seen, still...

Can't wait for, say, LOTR:ROTK:EE, 250 minutes, 4 hours and 10 minutes. Add excellent lossless (either PCM or Dolby/DTS), a couple of commentaries AND achieve transparency to the master. If that is achieved within the 30GB available, then I will be impressed :). My guess is two discs...

Heh, now this is interesting...

http://www.geardigest.com/2007/02/14/eu_bans_dodgy_consumer_reviews/
Now that's a hoot. I guess now we will see MS suing Apple over the "Apple guy/PC guy" TV ads. :DThat is, if (in theory) a Microsoft employee in the US were to post a bogus review of a Microsoft product onto a consumer site visited by Europeans, the company could be liable in the EU for the practice."in theory"? :)

Enough with the LOTR example. What %'age of movies out there are 4 hours and 10 minutes long OR longer?? .02% ?? LOTR is the EXCEPTION and therefore it wouldn't be a big deal if the movie was split across 2 discs. Having to use 2 discs for one movie out of every 5000 (assuming the .02% was a correct figure) is not a deal breaker.

Can't wait for, say, LOTR:ROTK:EE, 250 minutes, 4 hours and 10 minutes. Add excellent lossless (either PCM or Dolby/DTS), a couple of commentaries AND achieve transparency to the master. If that is achieved within the 30GB available, then I will be impressed :). My guess is two discs...

Does anybody know what happened to the Australia thread from this morning? I'd swear I posted in a thread about some store called "JB" announcing exclusive Blu-Ray support for Australia, but now I can't find it.

Did this thread get moved somewhere else?
I saw that thread also.... :confused:

Sure it will. ;) Well, they may claim to be achieving transparency, but are they really, on either side? It seems that the reviews always have some nitpick with each movie. I don't think we're quite there yet. So it remains to be seen, still...

Can't wait for, say, LOTR:ROTK:EE, 250 minutes, 4 hours and 10 minutes. Add excellent lossless (either PCM or Dolby/DTS), a couple of commentaries AND achieve transparency to the master. If that is achieved within the 30GB available, then I will be impressed :). My guess is two discs...

I would be impressed with a single disc for that too. From either format.

But I sure as heck won't be disappointed if it's on two. Nor do I believe I'd ever watch it without a single break.

Does anybody know what happened to the Australia thread from this morning? I'd swear I posted in a thread about some store called "JB" announcing exclusive Blu-Ray support for Australia, but now I can't find it.

Did this thread get moved somewhere else?This one?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=805591

This one?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=805591
That's not the one I saw this morning. It had quite a few responses too. 2 maybe 3 pages.

Enough with the LOTR example. What %'age of movies out there are 4 hours and 10 minutes long OR longer?? .02% ?? LOTR is the EXCEPTION and therefore it wouldn't be a big deal if the movie was split across 2 discs.

Sure it would. I would refuse to buy it, for example. IF/when Toshiba gets TL51 or even if BD needs BD200, I would pass on that untnil it could fit on one disc. In the meantime, my intention would be to use a BD burner to put the existing DVD EE onto a single BD-R or what not.


Having to use 2 discs for one movie out of every 5000 (assuming the .02% was a correct figure) is not a deal breaker.

It's a deal breaker for those of us who don't want to swap a disc. If you expect J6p to go to either HD format, you better offer them a little bit more than a prettier picture for their 27" SD TV.

"in theory"? :)

Yes. In practice ... purely hypothetical ... I wonder what happens if Sun or Panasonic employees write highly -ve things about competetion in websites (like AVS) that Europeans (like Grubert !) visit ?

How about if those reviews are in their individual capacity ? What happens when they are anonymous ?

Is this any different from existing slander lawys ?

does that mean everything is free? I paid my CC for my Samsung player many months ago as well. :)

Just because 360 owners delude themselves does not mean that the rest of the world should. I don't have a 360, if I want an HD DVD player I would need to buy one because the drive by itself won't work.

It's not really the same as your Samsung example because you bought that to play movies, and you used it for that.

In the case of people that own the Xbox 360 and have owned it for some time (paid it off), they bought it to play games. There was no HD-DVD option available to them. It was, and is, a Game Console. They have an option to buy an HD-DVD player for $150-200. The cost of the console is moot for these people.

Now, for someone that doesn't have a Console and wants to watch HD-DVD, they would have to buy both an Xbox 360 and Add-On or a Standalone player.

The number is significant, of course, because if there is an install base of 10m Consoles, that means that there is already a $150-200 HD-DVD option for 10 million people. That's a lot. And Studios may begin to take notice considering the huge attach rates.

That sunk costs are not important in purchase decisions is not a question of delusional thinking. Its a well known concept in the understanding of consumer purchasing behaviors.

People don't act rationally in their purchases decisions. Even though it might make sense from a theoretical standpoint on the value of their purchases, consumers just don't consider sunk costs when making a purchase.

Someone buying an HD DVD add on for the Xbox 360 is just considering the $199 or less price tag when he is considering the purchase.

Few people who want a HD DVD player would even consider buying a Xbox 360 and a HD DVD drive now. They'll just buy a standalone one. The only reason they might in the future is if they were already interested in the Xbox 360 anyway.

This is the only reason I own an HD Optical Player at all ... Cost for me to get in was low ... I picked up mine for $159 at Circuit City and it came with a Free Movie and Remote Control. I bought the 360 to play games a year before. It's cost was not relevent to my decision. For me, it was $159 to join HD-DVD. The alternative? Wayyyyyy too much.

Sure it would. I would refuse to buy it, for example. IF/when Toshiba gets TL51 or even if BD needs BD200, I would pass on that untnil it could fit on one disc. In the meantime, my intention would be to use a BD burner to put the existing DVD EE onto a single BD-R or what not.



It's a deal breaker for those of us who don't want to swap a disc. If you expect J6p to go to either HD format, you better offer them a little bit more than a prettier picture for their 27" SD TV.

Yer kidding me?

We've waited a decade for PQ/AQ of this caliber on a disc, 2+ decades for pre-recorded content if you include videotape, and we are finally at the point where we have source material that allows us to have better-than-movie theater quality in our own homes, and for the fraction of a percent of content that would require more than one disc, you are going to refuse to buy on principle?

Be my guest. I, and many, MANY others will be enjoying the movie.

Sure it would. I would refuse to buy it, for example. IF/when Toshiba gets TL51 or even if BD needs BD200, I would pass on that untnil it could fit on one disc. In the meantime, my intention would be to use a BD burner to put the existing DVD EE onto a single BD-R or what not.



It's a deal breaker for those of us who don't want to swap a disc. If you expect J6p to go to either HD format, you better offer them a little bit more than a prettier picture for their 27" SD TV.

You would want all 3 movies on 1 Disc to watch straight through? :confused:

I'd prefer 3 separate discs, one for each 'Part' with it's own special content.

I'm thinking the Studio's would like that too ... since they'll be able to sell each part by itself, then the set of 3, then a special edition of each part, then a special edition of the set of 3, and then a super special edition of the three including the hobit. :p

That sunk costs are not important in purchase decisions is not a question of delusional thinking. Its a well known concept in the understanding of consumer purchasing behaviors.

People don't act rationally in their purchases decisions. Even though it might make sense from a theoretical standpoint on the value of their purchases, consumers just don't consider sunk costs when making a purchase.

Someone buying an HD DVD add on for the Xbox 360 is just considering the $199 or less price tag when he is considering the purchase.

Few people who want a HD DVD player would even consider buying a Xbox 360 and a HD DVD drive now. They'll just buy a standalone one. The only reason they might in the future is if they were already interested in the Xbox 360 anyway.



Kosty, agree, the problem is that I expect (OK hope) that I can have a rational discussion wher I come here and discus with others. Look back at the beginning of the discussion

It started with me responding to Nataraj’s
Only way to get HD mainstream is to release inexpensive players fast. That will only happen with HD DVD.
would you say 200$ is the price of a player? I pointed out to that that HD DVD has not gotten cheaper, while BD has been getting cheaper (i.e.the cheapest MRSP for BD players used to be 1000$ the cheapest today is 500$ the first gen Samsung was 1000$ the second generation is 800$. On the other hand HD DVD started at 500$ and stayed at 500$.

There is a delusion in some bright people (brought on by wishful thinking) that there is something in HD DVD that naturally makes it MUCH cheaper. There isn’t. The reason Toshiba introduced it at 1/5 the BD player is that Toshiba was willing to heavily subsedize the player in order to try and get some market share. This subsidy makes HD DVD look cheaper, but also means no one knows how prices can change over time. At some time Toshiba must make a profit on their player.

You would want all 3 movies on 1 Disc to watch straight through? :confused:


Nah, 1 movie (EE) per disc. Specials can all go on separate (discs), HD or not, I'm unlikely to ever get through them.

Otherwise I'll just stick with the current EE.


Be my guest. I, and many, MANY others will be enjoying the movie.

That's your privelege, of course. Studios have to make their double-dipping money from somewhere. Just not me. ;)

I understand the point your making, but real life results are what matter. I assume you saw my recent post taking a closer look at BD-50s.

Blu-Ray strikes me as being a less mature format than HD-DVD at this point.

2CH I agree that BD-50 is less mature, it only came out at the end of the year, so it is normal that it would have many less titles. Do you think the % won't grow. As an example there was a time when HD DVD was selling better then BD, then BD started selling much better and now more BD titles have sold then HD DVD. The same is here 25 disks came out first and much earlier, now a lot of them are 50 but you can't expect them to have surpassed 25 already, that is not reasonable. As for look at this title it only got a score of X. That is just useless. No one is stupid enough to think capacity will dictate good quality. The point is that lesser capacity/bw can be the limiting factor, and why have it lower.

Someone could have a low wage and manage his money well and live well in a nice house that he owns. On the other hand I remember this story about a guy that millions in the lottery wasted it in several years, ended up on the street, won a second several million jackpot wasted the money and then ended up on the street again. Does that mean it is better to have less money because if you have millions you end up on the street?

Do you really believe there's no applicability, or are you just being argumentative? Maybe this is one of the "why should I care" points for you, which is fine. But one need only to look at the HTPC section of the forum, or recognize that such things are considered important enough to hold up AACS finalization over, etc...

So again, for many, it's a cost that weighs on one side of the "diminishing returns" argument.


not being argumentative. The point is if you play off the disk then it is a none issue. If you want to install it on a server to watch off of it or to stream, then you get to choose what you want. Ask Amir, MC does not force you to keep the encode intact. If you are happy with lesser quality you can reincode during MC to a smaller file. If you want HD DVD sizes, DVD sizes or P2P sizes then you can do it. Do you get the point? One way you are screwed because you can’t add quality where there was none (i.e. if someone wants lossless KK I can’t) the other way you do (tape to the HDD a lower quality and skip the lossless


Really? You don't believe there's single negative associated with larger encode sizes/bitrates as many are suggesting BR makes possible, and therefore should be used?

Yes, it is not the larger encode it is the MORE. I have no faith in studios. I think they are more interested in $ and what J6P wants. Both of these are normal, but they are not what I want. I want to put luck on my side that a studio won’t decide “looks good enough” and then it does not. Take it this way, do you think Sony could have done better with TFE? I do, they could have taken the time to find better master or fix that one. But wht happened we got screwed by the “its good enough”. Would KK have been better with Lossless? Yes but we got screwed by the “its good enough”. The reality is we will always get screwed by the “its good enough”. But might as well put luck on our side.

If a feature was exceptionally long or required lots of extra space, and therefore was split across 2 discs, why can't the first half of the movie, along with PiP/seamless branches/IME for the first half of the movie on one disc, and the second half of the movie along with it's associated extra content on the second?

yes, but that was not the discussion. Tim said that he does not mind if the extras are on one disk and the moviue is on the other. In your example the movie is split. And that was my point. You either sacrifice or you split the movie.

UXI, I'll bet you pause a movie to get a drink or go "p" or answer the phone. If you ever watch TV series collections you also change disks, and you will even on BD. Besides, never say never, or you will be missing some BD titles.

UXI, I'll bet you pause a movie to get a drink or go "p" or answer the phone

sometimes, but I have theatre rules here (no phones in the HT). And most people know better then to ask for a pause for p or refreshments (but I am not as strict with kids or strangers). On he other hand, can you tell me how you get people to only call you when the movie reaches the end of the disk and you need to get up to switch? :)

2CH I agree that BD-50 is less mature, it only came out at the end of the year, so it is normal that it would have many less titles. Do you think the % won't grow. As an example there was a time when HD DVD was selling better then BD, then BD started selling much better and now more BD titles have sold then HD DVD. The same is here 25 disks came out first and much earlier, now a lot of them are 50 but you can't expect them to have surpassed 25 already, that is not reasonable. As for look at this title it only got a score of X. That is just useless. No one is stupid enough to think capacity will dictate good quality. The point is that lesser capacity/bw can be the limiting factor, and why have it lower.

Someone could have a low wage and manage his money well and live well in a nice house that he owns. On the other hand I remember this story about a guy that millions in the lottery wasted it in several years, ended up on the street, won a second several million jackpot wasted the money and then ended up on the street again. Does that mean it is better to have less money because if you have millions you end up on the street?

Yes, I believe the percentage will grow, but let's take a look at how it's growing.

There are 150 BD titles currently reviewed on highdefdigest. If we look only at the most recent 20% we see that 10 of the 30 titles are BD-50, the other 20 are BD-25.

In other words, while we're seeing an increase in BD-50s, the majority of new releases are still BD-25. What I'm curious about is what the future holds. Is it all BD-50 as some suggest? Or will we continue to see most titles released on BD-25 with BD-50 representing a subset of the over all catalog?

Let's just say I agree with b2b on this point. I'll pass on being a beta tester for the Blu-Ray folks. If a couple of years from now they have a product that lives up to all of the hype I'll be looking to buy a good universal player. In the mean time I'm buying HD-DVD discs.

Yes. In practice ... purely hypothetical ... I wonder what happens if Sun or Panasonic employees write highly -ve things about competetion in websites (like AVS) that Europeans (like Grubert !) visit ?

How about if those reviews are in their individual capacity ? What happens when they are anonymous ?

Is this any different from existing slander lawys ?Then, shall we all, of course including all the insiders from both side, stop spreading FUDs, negative campaigns on here? I've really, really wanted that situation happening.

Is LG still planing on making a player that will play both formats?

Is LG still planing on making a player that will play both formats?


http://us.lge.com/products/model/detail/tv|audio|video_digital%20video__BH100.jhtml

If you use froogle you can find resellers selling it. I hear that they're also working on a model that will include full HDi support as well. I would at least wait for that if you're interested in buying a universal player.

Kosty, agree, the problem is that I expect (OK hope) that I can have a rational discussion wher I come here and discus with others. Look back at the beginning of the discussion

It started with me responding to Nataraj’s

would you say 200$ is the price of a player? I pointed out to that that HD DVD has not gotten cheaper, while BD has been getting cheaper (i.e.the cheapest MRSP for BD players used to be 1000$ the cheapest today is 500$ the first gen Samsung was 1000$ the second generation is 800$. On the other hand HD DVD started at 500$ and stayed at 500$.

There is a delusion in some bright people (brought on by wishful thinking) that there is something in HD DVD that naturally makes it MUCH cheaper. There isn’t. The reason Toshiba introduced it at 1/5 the BD player is that Toshiba was willing to heavily subsedize the player in order to try and get some market share. This subsidy makes HD DVD look cheaper, but also means no one knows how prices can change over time. At some time Toshiba must make a profit on their player.

I for one think that there a difference in the optics needed between Blu-ray and HD DVD the need for the blu laser to focus so close to the surface adds complications and some extra cost for Blu-ray players. Not sure how much it is and the price differential between HD DVD and Blu-ray is more marketing than cost, but it does affect the profit margin.

Also beside the PS3, all of the HD DVD players are being made in vastly higher volumes tahn the standalone Blu-ray players, driving down costs.

The Blu-ray companies are obviously trying to use a high price niche pricing strategy to recover R& D costs. Toshiba will its vastly greater volumes can recover its costs with a much smaller profit per player.

The Blu-ray companies are obviously trying to use a high price niche pricing strategy to recover R& D costs. Toshiba will its vastly greater volumes can recover its costs with a much smaller profit per player.This theory though assumes that Toshiba is making a profit on the HD-A2. I notice that Toshiba remains the only CE company making a HD DVD player for under $1000. Logically speaking there is probably a reason for that and in my opinion the most likely reason is because no other CE company can currently make a profit selling a HD DVD player at the same price as Toshiba's HD-A2.

[QUOTE=Kosty]I for one think that there a difference in the optics needed between Blu-ray and HD DVD the need for the blu laser to focus so close to the surface adds complications and some extra cost for Blu-ray players. Not sure how much it is and the price differential between HD DVD and Blu-ray is more marketing than cost, but it does affect the profit margin.

Also beside the PS3, all of the HD DVD players are being made in vastly higher volumes tahn the standalone Blu-ray players, driving down costs.

The Blu-ray companies are obviously trying to use a high price niche pricing strategy to recover R& D costs. Toshiba will its vastly greater volumes can recover its costs with a much smaller profit per player.

I thought I read that the data pits on BD were so narrow that they had to have the info just beneath the surface, and that laser then had to be bent to a cone-shape to read them?

It sounded like if a gnat pooped on a BD it would cause a glitch.

This theory though assumes that Toshiba is making a profit on the HD-A2. I notice that Toshiba remains the only CE company making a HD DVD player for under $1000. Logically speaking there is probably a reason for that and in my opinion the most likely reason is because no other CE company can currently make a profit selling a HD DVD player at the same price as Toshiba's HD-A2. There is a shortage of blu- diodes still. Microsoft and Toshiba are buying the most from the non- Sony source.

Several companies at CES announced plans for HD DVD players. Most prices anticipated for well under $1000 with talk of $299 or $199 MSRP players.

I am absolutely sure Toshiba is making a profit on the HD A2 at its current retail price and certainly on the new HD A20 and HD XA2.

Either Blu-ray players cost more to make or part shortages are causing only a few to be made or their is a deliberate strategy to sell Blu-ray players for far more than what they cost to make to recover R&D costs at far lower volumes.

Blu-ray companies want to play niche soak the first adopter pricing this year and let the PS3 drive disc sales.

Toshiba is trying to get prices down and immediately try to get to consumer friendly prices by the holiday season and at $199 price points by 2008.

Even if the HD DVD players are sold below cost, ( I was told flat out by by responsible people that they were not) their increased production levels will drive component costs and prices down.

Either way, HD DVD player costs are a better value for consumers and are reaching the point that more consumers will consider buying them.

I thought I read that the data pits on BD were so narrow that they had to have the info just beneath the surface, and that laser then had to be bent to a cone-shape to read them?

It sounded like if a gnat pooped on a BD it would cause a glitch. Well greasy fingerprints can cause issues. But in fairness, the BD coating makes that easily cleaned. Its just an distraction to wipe off a Blu-ray disc.

But it does cause a complexity in the optics. A HD DVD player must focus a blue-violet laser or a commodity priced red laser to read the DVD or HD DVD layer in the middle of the disc and must refocus the red laser to the bottom to play a CD. The HD DVD unit can get by with using a single optical pickup unit with different lenses.

A Blu-ray player needs to be able to focus on the bottom and the middle by also the very tippy top of the disc to read the Blu-ray layer thats almost on the surface. then they have to add a commodity priced DVD/CD player red laser optical pickup unit to do DVD's and CD's. In most cases this has meant two different optical pickup units and a switching mechanism, which adds some complexity.

Kosty,

If you just want to know the science and real technology rather than marketing stuff and do some more research, then you'll get another story. These topics have been discussed many many times and the real products (drives, discs) proved differently.

I am absolutely sure Toshiba is making a profit on the HD A2 at its current retail price and certainly on the new HD A20 and HD XA2.

Either Blu-ray players cost more to make or part shortages are causing only a few to be made or their is a deliberate strategy to sell Blu-ray players for far more than what they cost to make to recover R&D costs at far lower volumes.

Blu-ray companies want to play niche soak the first adopter pricing this year and let the PS3 drive disc sales.I would hope that Toshiba would make a good profit on the XA2. How do you explain that being $999 while the Samsung Blu-ray player which I've heard will also have the Reon chip and HDMI 1.3 is supposed to be $799 in April or so?

--Darin

I would hope that Toshiba would make a good profit on the XA2. How do you explain that being $999 while the Samsung Blu-ray player which I've heard will also have the Reon chip and HDMI 1.3 is supposed to be $799 in April or so?

--Darin

This is why I posted after CES that if you're in the market for a stand alone BD player you should buy the G2 Samsung. ;)

Of course with the G2 Samsung it's already obsolete before release because Samsung has said they do not plan to support BD-Live on this player. By the end of this year I'm sure we'll see new BD models from eveyone with BD-Live support.

Personally I was fine buying the XA2 from Robert as his prices are good and it represented a good value compared to the Denon 2930CI with Reon that I had been thinking about some months ago, and I'm using it now. :)

Personally I was fine buying the XA2 from Robert as his prices are good and it represented a good value compared to the Denon 2930CI with Reon that I had been thinking about some months ago, and I'm using it now. :)I'm curious. When do you expect to get 1080p24 capability from it (if that is something you want)?

And thanks for the heads up about BD-Live. I hadn't really looked into all that player will do, but one more reason I think the PS3 is such a good deal in the middle of this war.

--Darin

Sure it would. I would refuse to buy it, for example. IF/when Toshiba gets TL51 or even if BD needs BD200, I would pass on that untnil it could fit on one disc. In the meantime, my intention would be to use a BD burner to put the existing DVD EE onto a single BD-R or what not.



It's a deal breaker for those of us who don't want to swap a disc. If you expect J6p to go to either HD format, you better offer them a little bit more than a prettier picture for their 27" SD TV.
And why would someone with a "27" SD TV" buy into HD? If I own a milddle of the road car, I certainly don't buy premium gas for it!

I can't imagine getting up, stretching, going to the bathroom, getting some food or drink, and putting in disc two of a four-hour film, is going to be a problem for most people. :rolleyes:

Nah, 1 movie (EE) per disc. Specials can all go on separate (discs), HD or not, I'm unlikely to ever get through them.

Otherwise I'll just stick with the current EE.



That's your privilege, of course. Studios have to make their double-dipping money from somewhere. Just not me. ;)

Mmm.... if you want to count buying the DVD, and then the HD version of the disc double dipping, then isn't that the case regardless if the HD release is on one disc or two? Are you saying you won't by HD discs of any DVD's you own?

If you are suggesting that studios are going to double-dip on the HD transfers by first releasing a double-disc set, then a single disc set, I sincerely doubt that would be the case, given the perception from consumers that more discs=more value. And if they did, I certainly wouldn't re-buy a 3+ hour movie just because it now was on a single disc.

I really don't see how your double-dipping comment has anything to with the 1 -vs- 2 discs issue.

not being argumentative. The point is if you play off the disk then it is a none issue. If you want to install it on a server to watch off of it or to stream, then you get to choose what you want. Ask Amir, MC does not force you to keep the encode intact. If you are happy with lesser quality you can reincode during MC to a smaller file. If you want HD DVD sizes, DVD sizes or P2P sizes then you can do it. Do you get the point? One way you are screwed because you can’t add quality where there was none (i.e. if someone wants lossless KK I can’t) the other way you do (tape to the HDD a lower quality and skip the lossless

But the point is, adding bits when it does not necessarily equate to more quality FORCES you to either deal with less efficient uses of the content (streaming, storage on a media server, etc...) or to do a decode/re-encode, which is never preferable to the original encode from the master.

Many of these planned (by BR as well!) uses for the content, are not necessarily targeted at lower-quality streams - see examples above.


Yes, it is not the larger encode it is the MORE. I have no faith in studios. I think they are more interested in $ and what J6P wants. Both of these are normal, but they are not what I want. I want to put luck on my side that a studio won’t decide “looks good enough” and then it does not. Take it this way, do you think Sony could have done better with TFE? I do, they could have taken the time to find better master or fix that one. But wht happened we got screwed by the “its good enough”. Would KK have been better with Lossless? Yes but we got screwed by the “its good enough”. The reality is we will always get screwed by the “its good enough”. But might as well put luck on our side.

If the "MORE" you are alluding to is more PQ, then I'm with ya on wanting great PQ. But until I see demostratable improvement, I'm not a fan of just throwing more bits at it and deciding is must be better.

"But this one goes to 11"

yes, but that was not the discussion. Tim said that he does not mind if the extras are on one disk and the moviue is on the other. In your example the movie is split. And that was my point. You either sacrifice or you split the movie.

You asked:

...its a brave new world, extras are not stuff tacked on at the end. How would you put (the PiP) on a second disk?

To which I answer: You wouldn't If you do two disks, you split the Movie and IME both.

Unfortunately, that may not be what Tim wants. But In all likelihood, we are talking a pretty small subset of overall releases where this would be needed. If you can do 3+ hours + IME on KK, then I'd imagine that you could do 2-1/2 hours + lots of PiP on disc #1, and then all of the special features that don't require real-time sync with the movie on Disc #2.

sometimes, but I have theatre rules here (no phones in the HT). And most people know better then to ask for a pause for p or refreshments (but I am not as strict with kids or strangers). On he other hand, can you tell me how you get people to only call you when the movie reaches the end of the disk and you need to get up to switch? :)

Really? You watch a 2+ hour movie, and nobody's allowed to go to the bathroom or get a re-fill?

Wow.

I have a question.

If Sony keeps getting a pass from some on BD options that are not yet implemented, why then does Toshiba not get the same benefit of the doubt on a 51 GB disk?

Also in the realm of "could be"


When DVD was a smashing success, Sony promised a lot of interactive features, similar to what is being promised now; but outside of multiple audio selections, I can't think of many that are common. How many dvds let you toggle between angles or watch a film with or without deleted material? You could argue that it was the studio's prerogative, and they chose not to offer these options, but why would they do it now on HD when the potential recovery is way lower than on DVD?

Just because HD could let you switch between the original cut of Star Wars and the amended version version with the press of a button(s), doesn't mean Mr. Lucas is going to let you.

Then, shall we all.....

Just saying, people who live in (anonymous) glass houses shouldn't throw stones at others ...

Really? You watch a 2+ hour movie, and nobody's allowed to go to the bathroom or get a re-fill?

Wow.


and anyone who refers to a blu-ray disc as a "DVD" ejected immediately, without their coat.

After all, when they signed their "viewer rights and responsibility's contract," these terms were all clearly spelled out.

And why would someone with a "27" SD TV" buy into HD?
If you or your kid has a PS3 for that 27"er, there is no reason not to rent BDs instead of DVDs. ;)

This is one of the reasons I've always thought the PS3 was a great Trojan Horse; not just for the war with HD DVD, but for HD optical in general. Get these 27" owners curious and motivated to make the move up to an HDTV.

If you or your kid has a PS3 for that 27"er, there is no reason not to rent BDs instead of DVDs. ;)

This is one of the reasons I've always thought the PS3 was a great Trojan Horse; not just for the war with HD DVD, but for HD optical in general. Get these 27" owners curious and motivated to make the move up to an HDTV.


How about that DVDs are cheaper, more widely available, and have more extras than most of the bare-bones BD versions?

How about that DVDs are cheaper, more widely available, and have more extras than most of the bare-bones BD versions?
Oh here we go, the "extras" argument. Yes, I'm sure a lack of extras is going to keep people from renting BDs. Please.

Also, prices are the same for renting, at least with Netflix and BB.

Anymore arguments, on this topic, for me to shoot holes in?

Oh here we go, the "extras" argument. Yes, I'm sure a lack of extras is going to keep people from renting BDs. Please.

Also, prices are the same for renting, at least with Netflix and BB.

Anymore arguments, on this topic, for me to shoot holes in?


I missed the "rent" part. Still, I can see why anyone would chomp at the bit to play HD on 480 monitor.

Amazon is listing the HD DVD A2 for $315 today. That's got to be some kind of price-drop record for HD DVD. Can $299 be far off ? :)

actually Toshiba's web now lists the A2 at $499 and the XA2 at $999 list.

And why would someone with a "27" SD TV" buy into HD? If I own a milddle of the road car, I certainly don't buy premium gas for it!


J6p doesn't own 60" 1080p HDTV's like you and me, who are a rare breed. You better hope they want into these Hi Def formats eventually, or both formats are dead.

FYI, many "lower end" cars (Civic Si, Celica GTS, etc) had premium fuel recommended because of their high compression ratios for high strung smaller motors.


I can't imagine getting up, stretching, going to the bathroom, getting some food or drink, and putting in disc two of a four-hour film, is going to be a problem for most people. :rolleyes:

Not for me, but I'm still young and have a hardy bladder. I last the current EE's anyway. Ghandi tends to push my limits, though... ;)

If you are suggesting that studios are going to double-dip on the HD transfers by first releasing a double-disc set, then a single disc set, I sincerely doubt that would be the case, given the perception from consumers that more discs=more value. And if they did, I certainly wouldn't re-buy a 3+ hour movie just because it now was on a single disc.

That is what i'm talking about and I'll avoid re-buying the movie UNTIL they come out with it on a single disc... or i'll make one of my own using theirs as the start. Where's that HDDVDBackup prog again? :cool:

Oh here we go, the "extras" argument. Yes, I'm sure a lack of extras is going to keep people from renting BDs. Please.


Didn't you hear that every parent looks as the extras for criterea to get discs for their kids? :eek: :o

I missed the "rent" part. Still, I can see why anyone would chomp at the bit to play HD on 480 monitor.
I guess you misread the rest of my post as well. No chomping of bits necessary, nor likely. But no reason not to sample the capabilities of their new fangled machines either, when the rental prices are the same.

Some folks have SD monitors with component inputs too. A friend of mine had one and my grandfather-in-law does. DVDs and games run through component look much better than via s-video or, obviously composite and, dare I say, coax.

I wonder how much better the colors could be from HD optical through component to an SD display. I bet the difference would certainly be noticeable.

So, again, it comes down to a "why the he11 not" thing when there are, at least minor benefits with no difference in cost.

Amazon is listing the HD DVD A2 for $315 today. That's got to be some kind of price-drop record for HD DVD. Can $299 be far off ? :)

actually Toshiba's web now lists the A2 at $499 and the XA2 at $999 list.
No doubt about it, that is good news for HD DVD.

Amazon is listing the HD DVD A2 for $315 today. That's got to be some kind of price-drop record for HD DVD. Can $299 be far off ? :)

You got me all excited for nothing. That $315 price is for a used one. New ones are $399 from Amazon.

You got me all excited for nothing. That $315 price is for a used one. New ones are $399 from Amazon.
Weak!

And I fell for it without checking, too. Fool me once, Mr. Ramzyk...

"... well fool me can't get fooled again." :D

Weak!

And I fell for it without checking, too. Fool me once, Mr. Ramzyk...

"... well fool me can't get fooled again." :D


I wasn't trying to trick anyone, I believed it myself because the "New & Used for $315" click here option leads you to a page where they are listed as the lowest retailer, but you don't get that price until you put it in your cart.

So, false alarm.

I would'nt bother trying to fib about something that could be dispelled this easily. :o

If Sony keeps getting a pass from some on BD options that are not yet implemented, why then does Toshiba not get the same benefit of the doubt on a 51 GB disk?Releasing a Blu-ray movie with some BD-Live features won't prevent the movie itself from playing on a non-BD-Live player, only the BD-Live features themselves. Putting a TL51 disc in an existing HD DVD player will almost certainly result in the movie itself not working.

I wasn't trying to trick anyone, I believed it myself because the "New & Used for $315" click here option leads you to a page where they are listed as the lowest retailer, but you don't get that price until you put it in your cart.

So, false alarm.

I would'nt bother trying to fib about something that could be dispelled this easily. :o
I pretty well figured that, hence the "vague" political humor.

Releasing a Blu-ray movie with some BD-Live features won't prevent the movie itself from playing on a non-BD-Live player, only the BD-Live features themselves. Putting a TL51 disc in an existing HD DVD player will almost certainly result in the movie itself not working.

And you know this for a fact? I thought the specs haven't even been completed yet? Or are you just looking into you blue crystal ball again?

I'm curious. When do you expect to get 1080p24 capability from it (if that is something you want)?

And thanks for the heads up about BD-Live. I hadn't really looked into all that player will do, but one more reason I think the PS3 is such a good deal in the middle of this war.

--Darin

Yes, I definitely want the upgrade to 1080p24 on the XA2. The word I got from Toshiba at CES is that they are working on it right now and they expect to have it released sometime during calendar Q2, I know Robert is expecting it sooner so we'll have to wait and see on that one. I'm enjoying the XA2 in the mean time, so I don't mind waiting for the upgrade.

On the G2 Samsung, Talk has posted that from a hardware perspective this player is software upgradable to BD-Live if Samsung should choose to do it. I was told that they don't have plans to add BD-Live to this player, but you never know. Maybe they'll change their minds.

Personally, I believe the PS3 is the safest BD player to buy. It's a software implementation so they can make whatever changes the CPU has the horsepower to handle and I think it's likely that they'll add BD-Live support. Then again the answer I got from Sony regarding BD-Live on the PS3 is "no comment."

And you know this for a fact? I thought the specs haven't even been completed yet? Or are you just looking into you blue crystal ball again?

HD DVD specs are not complete yet either - lots of tweaks still going on. And I see the latest MPEG-2 systems draft corrigendum would cause incompatibility problems with HD DVD.

Putting a TL51 disc in an existing HD DVD player will almost certainly result in the movie itself not working.

I get tired of reading this.

Do you have a source to back up your claim? If so, let's hear it. If not, edit your post to remove this statement.

And you know this for a fact? I thought the specs haven't even been completed yet?The fact the specs haven't been completed (haven't even been submitted!) provides all the more evidence for my position. As if a Toshiba optical drive engineer explicitly stating that he didn't think it was possible for existing drives to support TL isn't enough evidence...

Releasing a Blu-ray movie with some BD-Live features won't prevent the movie itself from playing on a non-BD-Live player, only the BD-Live features themselves. ...


should this be qualified with 'if authored properly on the disc...'?

or is this behavior to playback in some dumbed down mode required?

On the G2 Samsung, Talk has posted that from a hardware perspective this player is software upgradable to BD-Live if Samsung should choose to do it.If I actually definitively stated it is upgradeable to BD-Live I misspoke. What I believe I said is that it appears to have network support and is based on a chipset which supports BD-Live secondary video requirements, so it appears from what we know that it could support BD-Live.

should this be qualified with 'if authored properly on the disc...'?

or is this behavior to playback in some dumbed down mode required?Nope. Unless they explicitly author a title not to work, the movie itself will work just fine. Sure, they could attempt a network connection prior to playing the movie and if it doesn't work refuse to play the movie, but that would make no sense for a standard title. Any normal authoring will allow the primary movie to play just fine; bonus features requiring secondary video or network connectivity will either operate with reduced capability (i.e. secondary audio but no video), or won't be selectable.

The fact the specs haven't been completed (haven't even been submitted!) provides all the more evidence for my position. As if a Toshiba optical drive engineer explicitly stating that he didn't think it was possible for existing drives to support TL isn't enough evidence...

Actually, the fact that specs haven't been completed or submitted precludes you or anyone else from having a position on said specs.

As far as a quote from a Toshiba engineer, I don't suppose you have a link?

Actually, the fact that specs haven't been completed or submitted precludes you or anyone else from having a position on said specs.

As far as a quote from a Toshiba engineer, I don't suppose you have a link?

I think the TL disc is like the flying car we're forever supposed to get next decade. It's always just out of our reach.

So before we get to the point where we ask, "can existing players play the TL disc?", we should probably first ask, will "TL disc ever become non-fiction in the first place?"

I think the TL disc is like the flying car we're forever supposed to get next decade. It's always just out of our reach.

So before we get to the point where we ask, "can existing players play the TL disc?", we should probably first ask, will "TL disc ever become non-fiction in the first place?"

I don't disagree with this.

I'm not asking whether TL discs will play on current players. I don't know if they will or not. I agree it doesn't matter unless they materialize.

But, if someone *is* going to discuss TL discs, I believe it should be in accordance with the thread rules. And I quote:

"-make sure your information is accurate; cite the facts on which you base your post: if it is your opinion, qualify it as such"

So, I maintain that evidence should be provided that these discs will "almost certainly" not play in current hardware, or the statement should be removed.

Nah... This is a forum and most people are entitled to their opinion, no? The percentage of posts in this thread stating things as "facts" from either side is rather large, me thinks. This is the format BATTLE thread, and I think there should be room for more personal opinions in this thread than in, say, the Insiders thread. Most people know people are stating their opinions, without having to add the IMHO every time.

And I agree with him. The probability of triple layer discs playing in 1. gen. HD DVD players is low, IMHO. Someone posted info here way back about the lack of reflectivity on the third layer, but I can't seem to find it now. There is also the question of all components handling the extra 50% of data coming through the system.

It could happen, of course. I would be surprised and very impressed. :) On the flip side, if there are players that will NOT handle it, what then? All the cries from certain people on the HD DVD side about different profiles in Blu-ray and certain features not playing on 1. gen. players... As Talk mentions, at least the movie will play. There is a HUGE difference in not getting access to certain extra features and not being able to play the disc AT ALL!

Enough with the LOTR example. What %'age of movies out there are 4 hours and 10 minutes long OR longer?? .02% ?? LOTR is the EXCEPTION and therefore it wouldn't be a big deal if the movie was split across 2 discs. Having to use 2 discs for one movie out of every 5000 (assuming the .02% was a correct figure) is not a deal breaker.

Right. An extreme example. But my point is simple. Instead of being limited to 30GB, you have 20GB more to play with. You don't NEED to use it all. If the total ends at 35GB fine, 40 fine, 45 fine. The clue is you don't have to skimp on things, you don't have to tweak an encode for a extra week to make it fit etc.

Sure, we haven't seen much of this so far, but we've discussed that to death several times. The option is there. For now it is not in HD DVD.

The fact the specs haven't been completed (haven't even been submitted!) provides all the more evidence for my position. As if a Toshiba optical drive engineer explicitly stating that he didn't think it was possible for existing drives to support TL isn't enough evidence...

You (deliberately?) left left out the bit that this statement was about G1 models.

He talked also about G2 where he stated that it might be possible with a firmware upgrade.

Nah... This is a forum and most people are entitled to their opinion, no?

People aren't entitled to anything on a privately owned forum. I quoted a rule specific to this thread. I didn't make the rule. If you have a problem with it, you should go to a different thread with different rules.

Besides, he didn't post an opinion. You have to have a basis to form an opinion. You can't form an opinion on something that doesn't exist. Additionally, when an approved Insider states that something will or will not happen with certainty, that's different than Joe Average coming here and spouting unfounded speculation as fact.

If this statement on TL is allowed to remain in this thread under the guise of fact, then there's nothing separating this thread from the thousands of other pissing contents taking place in these forums. Except that Insiders are invited to spread FUD along with everyone else.

Actually, the fact that specs haven't been completed or submitted precludes you or anyone else from having a position on said specs.

As far as a quote from a Toshiba engineer, I don't suppose you have a link?

Well I do (http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=62615):

DVDTimes: Moving onto the questions about the format now. Reading AVSForum.com [in America], there's some rumours going around about the actual capacity of the discs. I think NEC have announced a new drive for PCs, and that can supposedly read the triple-layer 45gb discs.
Jim Armour, Toshiba: Even although the disc is not ratified yet by the [DVD] Forum?

DVDTimes: That's what I was going to ask you - what's happening with that. Is it likely we'll see a 45gb disc out?
Jim Armour, Toshiba: The triple layer disc is not actually due out until next year. I believe that the actual book type will not be ratified by something like June next year [2007]. So, announcing they can read triple layer is very odd.

DVDTimes: It'd have to go through the DVD Forum, wouldn't it?
Jim Armour, Toshiba: Yes, definitely. The version of the book we're on now is something like 0.4, which is a very early stage. Until the actual format is approved by the Forum, we're expecting about another four months for it to go through. And then, they'd upgrade the book to 0.8. Then, they do physical layer testing and things of that nature, so we're expecting the book type to be released probably mid-next year.

DVDTimes: So, if that does come out, do you know if the current drives would be able to read it with a firmware update? Is there any likelihood that we'll ever see triple-layer film discs?
Jim Armour, Toshiba: Any likelihood... well, if we're actually creating the format, I think there's a likelihood. There is a likelihood - a 45gb capacity could be very useful. Whether drives can read it, I don't know - because, basically the specification hasn't been set. It's like when the first Dual Layer DVD-Rs came out, really old drives couldn't read it. [...] It could well be the same situation. Until the standard has been specified and ratified, you can't really say whether it'll be able to read it. I would go as far, in fact, to say probably not. You're having to focus through two primary layers. The amount of reflected energy that you're going to get back will be quite low. Now in my opinion, in order to read this kind of media, you're going to need something like - do you know your way around the term PRML?

DVDTimes: I actually don't, no - could you explain that?
Jim Armour, Toshiba: It's Partial Response Maximum Likelihood - PRML. It's in hard discs. It's like a digital filter where you take the signal, which is quite weak and has a lot of noise in it, and you clean up the noise. The signal you get out is still looking like noise, but you know that in certain points, the data is going to have a slightly stronger signal at these points. So, you put it through a digital filter, and you compare it to non-data. And then, you pick out the data from this noisy signal with it. It's a very interesting technology, but it's not actually built into current HD DVD readers. The signal that you're going to get back off triple layer is going to be something in the region of only 15-20% of the current reflected information that you get off a single layer.

DVDTimes: Basically, not good enough to get anything out of, then?
Jim Armour, Toshiba: Not good enough to get information out of, WITHOUT this PRML circuitry, and the first drives don't have PRML circuitry built in. I don't think that even with a firmware upgrade, you'd be able to do it.

DVDTimes: Right, it's physical hardware then?
Jim Armour, Toshiba: Yeah, I think second or third generation hardware - fine, but not first-generation products.



So there you have it: Toshiba engineer says "probably not".

Well I do (http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=62615):



So there you have it: Toshiba engineer says "probably not".

great, we have a probably not for g1 and a probaby for g2...i've got one of each so i should be all set...covering all the probablys :)

I'm sure everyone is familiar with this, but the spec sheets for the NEC HR-1100A (the drive used in the first generation Toshibas) indicated that the drive will support triple layer 45GB disks. My question is whether the PRML chip is supposed to be on the drive itself or on the player motherboard. The old link for the original brochure does not work (it may have been pulled from the NEC site), but I downloaded the brochure early on to my hard drive (have a copy if anyone wants it). I don't think NEC would have made the claim, if they thought it wouldn't work. The Toshiba engineer may not have been aware of the original specs of the drive and its actual capability. Or NEC may have been mistaken.

If PRML is implemented it's in the drive.

If PRML is implemented it's in the drive.

I would suspect then that the NEC drive can do the third layer after all. There would be no reason for NEC to make that claim if it couldn't. Does anyone have the spec sheets for the Toshiba drive found in the generation two players and the Xboxadd-on? I believe there are quite a few variations.

Nah... There is a HUGE difference in not getting access to certain extra features and not being able to play the disc AT ALL!


Really? I can't think of any early adopter who would content themselves with a machine that "just plays the feature" for more than twenty minutes. They would always have their eye on a replacement.

What will happen in both cases are ugly stickers on disk packages, and lots of returns by people who play movies on game consoles.

So by the end of the year we now may have have

HD DVD 30
HD DVD 51
Bluray 25-50
HD DVD Bluray combo
HD DVD combo
Bluray interative

ostensibly six format variants, this has to be some kind of record in the realm of electronics absurdity. People are used to half-finished computer systems, you put up with it because it's your livelihood and you have no choice. Good luck HD anything, your making DVD look better every day.

Amazon is listing the HD DVD A2 for $315 today. That's got to be some kind of price-drop record for HD DVD. Can $299 be far off ? :)

actually Toshiba's web now lists the A2 at $499 and the XA2 at $999 list.

I show the A2 for $399, Free Shipping ... :confused:

EDIT: Late to the party, this has already been brought up ... oopsie ... ;)

If a TL 51 disc comes out, it is possible that the deep layer, the hard for first generation players to read third layer, could be used for that extra content that would not be required to play the movie. They could be available for download.

It is quite possible, that Toshiba could figure out a way that the first two layers are used for the feature and audio, and the disc would still would be playable by first generation players. With the limitation that some of the extra content would not be available on the disc.

That would be the same solution that Blu-ray would use for advanced content on its gen 1 players.

From a pure politics point of view, I wouldn't expect a TL51 announcement without a disclaimer that it wouldn't play on current decks - unless it can. I haven't heard any such disclaimer.

Toshiba made all the first generation players and also made the announcement.

There is a simplicity factor involved that the first generation players are generally the same and built by the same manufacturer..

If the first generation players are not TL51 compatable, there also is a marketing solution to the issue. Toshiba can always offer a $150 or $200 rebate offer to the first generation owners to upgrade to a new HD DVD player. Toshiba could absorb taht as a marketing cost at a fraction of what Sony is doing.

If there are a high number of 70,000 Gen 1 units in the wild, probably 25% of those enthusiastic first adopters have already purchased a second generation unit.

If that leaves 50,000 units out, a 20% redemption rate of the offer would only be 10,000 units that Toshiba would rebate. The redemption offer could also be equal to the net profit on the player, so that there would not even be much of a cost for Toshiba.

But an offer like that, even if it would not be taken up by a majority of users would maintain first adopter goodwill.

Its also possible that the units could be upgraded with a different drive assembly, but from a logistics standpoint that may not be practicable on a mass scale.

You (deliberately?) left left out the bit that this statement was about G1 models.

He talked also about G2 where he stated that it might be possible with a firmware upgrade.

Just a little crooked talk from an expert spinner :p

It's simple, Toshiba and Microsoft just replace the whole existing players if it doesn't read TL discs. Since HD DVD drive is cheap, it won't cost much for those giant companies.

Just a little crooked talk from an expert spinner :p

grubert posted the entire relevant text.

You obviously didn't understand what was stated in the last bit.

Grubert is the most consistent provider of accurate and complete information on this forum.

Good and bad for each format. Even when he has selective memory he tells the truth.

If you disagree with him find the data or logical explanation to convince him otherwise.

Others may spin, by Grubert shoots straight and sometimes in both directions when its called for. ;)

If a TL 51 disc comes out, it is possible that the deep layer, the hard for first generation players to read third layer, could be used for that extra content that would not be required to play the movie. They could be available for download.

It is quite possible, that Toshiba could figure out a way that the first two layers are used for the feature and audio, and the disc would still would be playable by first generation players. With the limitation that some of the extra content would not be available on the disc.

That would be the same solution that Blu-ray would use for advanced content on its gen 1 players.

But, your idea would still require DL34 support. Are the PRML circuits firmware upgradeable? And there is the issue that this TL51 change would come with increased bandwidth.

I would think that TL45 with standard HD DVD bandwidth would be a more compatible version of what you describe, with TL51 being something transitioned to over time.

What never seems be mentioned is that many, many BD supporters wouldn't be BD supporters had TL51 with high bandwidth been in the HD DVD spec at the beginning. And I expect that at least one of the current BD exclusive studios would be neutral or even backing HD DVD had this been there at the start.

Is it too late now? It strikes me that Microsoft/Toshiba have called a "do over" in this war. :D

Gary

New Player in Blu-Ray Disc Market (http://www.pcworld.com/article/129106-1/article.html?tk=nl_dnxnws)


Japan's Funai Electric Co. Ltd. is set to enter the next-generation DVD market this year, it said Friday.

The company, which is known for its low-cost consumer electronics products, plans to have a Blu-ray Disc player available before the end of 2007, said Naoyuki Takanaka, a spokesman for the company.

The product won't be sold under the Funai name but offered to other consumer electronics companies on an OEM (original equipment manufacturer) basis for resale under their respective brand names.

Takanaka wouldn't disclose Funai's target price for the player but a report in Friday morning's Nikkan Kogyo Shimbun industrial daily said it will cost around US$500, or about ¥60,000.


While its first product is likely to be compatible with Blu-ray Disc, Takanaka said Funai hasn't taken sides in the format battle and is also considering an HD DVD player.


Gary

But, your idea would still require DL34 support. Are the PRML circuits firmware upgradeable? And there is the issue that this TL51 change would come with increased bandwidth.


If it proofs not feasable TL51 could be done without the increased speed or a fraction of the rumored 1.5.


I would think that TL45 with standard HD DVD bandwidth would be a more compatible version of what you describe, with TL51 being something transitioned to over time.


TL51 has increased pit density there is no technological reason for increased speed because of this higher density. It's not different than CD going from the spec'd 640Mb to 700Mb. The datarate didn't increase only the playing time got longer.


What never seems be mentioned is that many, many BD supporters wouldn't be BD supporters had TL51 with high bandwidth been in the HD DVD spec at the beginning. And I expect that at least one of the current BD exclusive studios would be neutral or even backing HD DVD had this been there at the start.


No there would have been two formats regardless.
Sony wanted it's 'own' technology for more reasons than only the technology advantage.
BR always lagged behined in the spec race. That enabled them to outspec the standards proposed by the DVD Forum. If TL51 was introduced back then BR would have promised TL75.


Is it too late now? It strikes me that Microsoft/Toshiba have called a "do over" in this war. :D

Gary

We can speculate about all kinds of scenario's about this. Most of the speculations assume that there would be serious issues with G1 hardware.

But what if they succeed without hw issues?
Going from 15G to 17G per layer isn't that big of a deal. An increase in throughput of 20..50% isn't either.

It wouldn't be a 'do over' they are able to pull it off seamlessly with firmware upgrades.
It will be too late for BDA to counter this move.

1.5x bandwidth requires more buffer memory to store, not just spin a disc faster. HD DVD-Video spec book also has to be widely updated for it. IF it will be ratified, it may be called something like HD DVD-Video Ver.2.0 - it's a big change if it happen.

1.5x bandwidth requires more buffer memory to store, not just spin a disc faster. HD DVD-Video spec book also has to be widely updated for it. IF it will be ratified, it may be called something like HD DVD-Video Ver.2.0 - it's a big change if it happen.

Not neccesaraly. If peak data rates are limited to short periods of time buffers only need to be handle the increased speed.

The drives buffer get filled faster but the readout on average will be lower than the peak rate. It only leads to shorter disc access times.

If the specs limits are fixed in the soc it would be impossible to pull TL off with a higer data rate. But I suspect that the limits are imposed trough firmware.

Really? I can't think of any early adopter who would content themselves with a machine that "just plays the feature" for more than twenty minutes. They would always have their eye on a replacement. Then spend a bit more team reading posts here. Lots of AVS'ers say "just give me the damn movie".

Then spend a bit more team reading posts here. Lots of AVS'ers say "just give me the damn movie".

Ahhh, but there is a grand psychological gulf between what people say they don't require, and what they are told they cannot have. ;)

NBC Theatrical department takes over Video (www.homemediaretailing.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10299)
Ken Graffeo, the home video unit’s executive VP of marketing, has been promoted into a new role in which he will now spearhead the studio’s worldwide strategy for high definition. Graffeo will focus on Universal’s exploits in the much-ballyhooed high-definition arena, in which the studio plays a prominent role for its exclusive advocacy of the HD DVD platform. HD DVD is supported by just three of the major studios, and the other two, Warner Bros. and Paramount Pictures, also support rival next-gen format Blu-ray Disc. Hmm, I wonder if a change in leadership for high def strategy implies Universal execs are unhappy with Universal's current direction?

Hmm, I wonder if a change in leadership for high def strategy implies Universal execs are unhappy with Universal's current direction?

I'm surprised it took that long for some BD spin on that.

No I think it means more aggressive promotion of HD-DVD :p

Hmm, I wonder if a change in leadership for high def strategy implies Universal execs are unhappy with Universal's current direction?

Well here is a link to a recent interview.. If this stance holds, then I would say no changes anytime soon.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?t=250887
Here are the questions our members wanted asked and summary of the
answers Ken provided:

General Questions and Answers:

Q: Will you release titles on Blu-ray and if so when?
A: Universal currently has no plans to support Blu-ray.

Q: Will you release titles on the new Total HD discs and if so when?
A: At this time Universal has no plans to release titles in the Total HD format. They like the idea of the combo discs (DVD on side and HD DVD on the other) and Total HD won’t support that.

I guess it will depend if Ken gets to make his own marching orders or if he is given orders from higher up.

b2b

Well here is a link to a recent interview.. If this stance holds, then I would say no changes anytime soon.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?t=250887


I guess it will depend if Ken gets to make his own marching orders or if he is given orders from higher up.

b2b
I wouldn't call those quotes a slam dunk.

"currently has no plans"

"At this time"

What about tomorrow?

Having said that, I also believe that Talkstr8t's quotes are inconclusive as well. New execs often place their friends in high places.

I wouldn't call those quotes a slam dunk.

"currently has no plans"

"At this time"

What about tomorrow?

Having said that, I also believe that Talkstr8t's quotes are inconclusive as well. New execs often place their friends in high places.

Many times that phraseology is a way of delivering a soft "no." That's usually how companies tell me to go screw when I ask if they will be releasing specific titles.

There is a shortage of blu- diodes still. Microsoft and Toshiba are buying the most from the non- Sony source.That is a possibility, but I would point out that LG was able to buy them for their universal player.


Several companies at CES announced plans for HD DVD players.True, and it will be interesting to see how many of those announced players become actual products this year.


Most prices anticipated for well under $1000 with talk of $299 or $199 MSRP players.No offense but I think anyone hoping for a $200 MSRP stand alone HD DVD player this year is going to be very disappointed. As for a $300 MSRP stand alone HD DVD player I think that depends greatly on how desperate Toshiba gets this year. Just my opinion but I don't think they are going to go that low in MSRP unless they have to.


I am absolutely sure Toshiba is making a profit on the HD A2 at its current retail price and certainly on the new HD A20 and HD XA2.I agree with you about the HD-A20 and HD-XA2 but personally I don't understand why so many HD DVD supporters are "absolutely sure" that the HD-A2 is making a profit. It looks to me like a belief that is based on the idea that HD DVD is cheaper and not on any evidence.


Of course with the G2 Samsung it's already obsolete before release because Samsung has said they do not plan to support BD-Live on this player.I don't think Samsung has said anything official about BD-Live one way or the other yet so unless there is evidence to the contrary I think that is only a rumor you heard. Also even if the BD-P1200 is only a BD-Video 1.1 player (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9532354&&#post9532354) that would still beat HD DVD in requirements except for internet support.

I wouldn't call those quotes a slam dunk.

"currently has no plans"

"At this time"

What about tomorrow?

Having said that, I also believe that Talkstr8t's quotes are inconclusive as well. New execs often place their friends in high places.

Who knows.. ;) It just seems that someone at Universal wants to avoid BD like the plague. Question is, just who that person is and if they are still calling the shots. They seem to have their own game plan that is different than any of the other studios. It will be interesting to see what they do if the current BD sales rate continues at 2:1 over HD-DVD for the next six months.

Six months is plenty of time to "make plans" :)

b2b

Besides, he didn't post an opinion. You have to have a basis to form an opinion. You can't form an opinion on something that doesn't exist.Technically that is not accurate and no offense but you might want to read the definition of what an opinion is (http://www.answers.com/topic/opinion) since it is quite possible to have an opinion on something that is not based on evidence. That is why they call it an opinion and not a fact. Also for a bit of famous quotes about opinions try reading a few quotes from this website (http://www.jimpoz.com/quotes/category.asp?categoryid=43) such as this one from JFK that states "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."


Additionally, when an approved Insider states that something will or will not happen with certainty, that's different than Joe Average coming here and spouting unfounded speculation as fact.

If this statement on TL is allowed to remain in this thread under the guise of fact, then there's nothing separating this thread from the thousands of other pissing contents taking place in these forums. Except that Insiders are invited to spread FUD along with everyone else.Just curious but where have you been the last two years to make this type of statement as though it is something new? I have seen Amir, a HD DVD insider, post on certain topics for years often stating his opinions as facts and yet I don't remember you popping in and going after him for doing that. For instance Amir stated for years both in official interviews and on this forum that MPEG-4 AVC was incapable of encoding fine detail. Of course he no longer states that anymore but I remember him going to the Blu-ray sections of the forum and even posting that BS there. Don't get me wrong I do believe that opinions should be stated as opinions but consider me amazed that you are so surprised at this.

Thanks for the compliment, Kosty.

Even when he has selective memory he tells the truth.

That's because I've watched Memento far too many times. :D

Who knows.. ;) It just seems that someone at Universal wants to avoid BD like the plague. Question is, just who that person is and if they are still calling the shots. They seem to have their own game plan that is different than any of the other studios. It will be interesting to see what they do if the current BD sales rate continues at 2:1 over HD-DVD for the next six months.

Six months is plenty of time to "make plans" :)

b2b

The man in question is Craig "HD DVD" Kornblau, and no he doesn't call the shots anymore http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9798236&&#post9798236.

When is an opinion not an opinion? When is a thread not a thread? And how many hot wings are just one too many? Tune into next weeks exciting installment of "High Def Optical Disc News" and find out!

Next week's host: TSD - coming out of retirement with yet more wacky predictions!

The man in question is Craig "HD DVD" Kornblau, and no he doesn't call the shots anymore http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9798236&&#post9798236.

Any insights on what exactly this news really means?

Any insights on what exactly this news really means?

There is internal turmoil within Universal Home Entertainment, so basically they demoted the head, Kornblau, as he now answers to someone. They will be putting all of their divisions into review mode, and that will include their High def division, so expect there to be little to no releases from May to August, then I would expect Kornblau to leave his post as he is not the head of the division, despite having the title. All of this paving the way to Universal neutrality in time for Thanksgiving '07.

Those are just my musings, no real evidence for it.

... in which the studio plays a prominent role for its exclusive advocacy of the HD DVD platform. HD DVD is supported by just three of the major studios, and the other two, Warner Bros. and Paramount Pictures, also support rival next-gen format Blu-ray Disc.?

The writer makes it sound as if Universal is all alone on a chunk of ice that is floating away from the mainland off into the sunset. :)

Any insights on what exactly this news really means?

No, just piles of lame overreaching speculation that take up space. :rolleyes:

snip...

I don't think Samsung has said anything official about BD-Live one way or the other yet so unless there is evidence to the contrary I think that is only a rumor you heard. Also even if the BD-P1200 is only a BD-Video 1.1 player (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9532354&&#post9532354) that would still beat HD DVD in requirements except for internet support.

I base my comments on conversations with one of the Samsung marekting engineers at CES as well as conversations with a represantative at the Blu-Ray booth. I was told that this player would not get BD-Live support. Of course the player wasn't shipping at the time (and still isn't), so things could change.

Why do you believe this player will be BD-Video 1.1 compliant? I didn't ask about this, but I haven't seen this in any of the player specs.

How about this?

Read a few of the posts from here down.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9800483&&#post9800483

I'd sure like to see the list of several THOUSAND DVDs that suddenly have started selling better than HD discs on Amazon in the last three days.

What the heck happened to the Amazon rankings?

HD DVD hit its lowest average ranking EVER overnight. Does that make any sense to anyone?

Gary

I suspect Amazon have simply altered the formula by which they calculate HighDef disc rankings, to bring it inline with the formula used for DVDs. This will give a clearer picture of how HighDef is competing with DVD in the marketplace.

It wouldn't be a 'do over' they are able to pull it off seamlessly with firmware upgrades.
It will be too late for BDA to counter this move.

Would it make any sense to counter it? I suspect if they politically just had to do it, the\ BDA could come up with a three layer BD75. But, if some think BD50 is overkill (as many HD DVD supporters do) then BD75 would be ludicrous. Right?

It would be a do over in the sense that the capacity issue wouldn't go away, and HD DVD felt it necessary to address it. Bottom line, would TL51 be proposed if there was no BD?

The original HD DVD was one layer. Without BD we might be speculating today about when we'd see a DL30. But, most people would reject it ever happening saying that the studios wanted that one sided combo.

Just making a point that both sides have benefitted from the battle.

Gary

I suspect Amazon have simply altered the formula by which they calculate HighDef disc rankings, to bring it inline with the formula used for DVDs. This will give a clearer picture of how HighDef is competing with DVD in the marketplace.

Why would they have been using a different formula in the first place for high def discs compared to SD discs?

I suspect Amazon have simply altered the formula by which they calculate HighDef disc rankings, to bring it inline with the formula used for DVDs. This will give a clearer picture of how HighDef is competing with DVD in the marketplace.

That would explain it. But, what different formula would they have been applying up to now? And if they were generating the rankings differently, why have them in the same overall list?!

I wish Amazon would explain things rather than just changing the rules.

If this is so, then the old data is pretty worthless. Perhaps Amazon can provide an adjustment factor that can be applied to old data to make it consistent?

Gary

Would it make any sense to counter it? I suspect if they politically just had to do it, the\ BDA could come up with a three layer BD75. But, if some think BD50 is overkill (as many HD DVD supporters do) then BD75 would be ludicrous. Right?

It would be a do over in the sense that the capacity issue wouldn't go away, and HD DVD felt it necessary to address it. Bottom line, would TL51 be proposed if there was no BD?

The original HD DVD was one layer. Without BD we might be speculating today about when we'd see a DL30. But, most people would reject it ever happening saying that the studios wanted that one sided combo.

Just making a point that both sides have benefitted from the battle.

Gary

Good point Gary. I'm sure the competition has benefitted both sides.

Yes, BD75 would be ludicrous. Does anyone have a bladder that big? ;)

How about this.

Read a few of the posts from here down.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9800483&&#post9800483


God, come up for air you guys. I'd make my own predictions about these changes, but my crystal ball is a little on fritz today.

That would explain it. But, what different formula would they have been applying up to now? And if they were generating the rankings differently, why have them in the same overall list?!

I wish Amazon would explain things rather than just changing the rules.

If this is so, then the old data is pretty worthless. Perhaps Amazon can provide an adjustment factor that can be applied to old data to make it consistent?

Gary
I'd guess the reason for having them in the same list is simply a question of not wanting to create even more categories on their site. As to the different ranking formulas that's just speculation, though it would seem to fit the facts. If the rankings remain at this new level going forward it will be almost certain.

Remember when amazon rankings were first brought up, and some wanted to use them as sales figures? We looked into the methodology behind the rankings and found out a few things. Apparently they weight the rankings according to past sales, current sales, and projected future sales. The importance given to each segment will potentially effect the overall ranking - a disc which used to sell well but is currently not doing much business will slip down the rankings faster if the current/projected sales are given more importance. It seems different weightings are given to different categories of products, with books treated differently than DVDs, for instance.

The only reason I can think of for this difference is the volume of turn-over, and the habits of the consumers in a particular sector. A low volume (and new) item such as HighDef may have been weighted more towards new sales and projected sales.

It'll be just my luck if the rankings normalize tomorrow and all this postulation looks particularly pathetic!

Why would they have been using a different formula in the first place for high def discs compared to SD discs?

To instill more confidence and sell more product?

So you're saying they didn't want to sell SD discs?

So you're saying they didn't want to sell SD discs?

At this point SD disks sell themselves. Only price makes a difference.

It'll be just my luck if the rankings normalize tomorrow and all this postulation looks particularly pathetic!

I think I may have it figured out:

The drop follows the 80% bump in BD discs on hand in the last four days. If the Amazon ranking uses future sales projections, then it is reasonable to assume that the rate of stock reduction (% of stock on hand) would figure in that calculation.

For whatever reason, Amazon ordered a big increase in BD stock and that arrived recently, but the sales numbers wouldn't have changed all that much. So, that would mean the stock reduction rate would suddenly drop and that would affect the forward looking popularity calculations.

If other factors force HD DVD discs behind BD discs in the ranking, that would explain the HD DVD ranking drop too. A drop by association.

Gary

They're more likely to go to 4 layers (BD-100) than stop at 3 layers.

I'd at least like BD-100 for BD-R and BD-RE.

They're more likely to go to 4 layers (BD-100) than stop at 3 layers.

I'd at least like BD-100 for BD-R and BD-RE.

Are you predicting a BD-Video 2.1 spec? ;)

They're more likely to go to 4 layers (BD-100) than stop at 3 layers.

I'd at least like BD-100 for BD-R and BD-RE.

BD100 is three layer. For >50 TDK has been going to a new 33GB per layer form.

Gary

There is internal turmoil within Universal Home Entertainment, so basically they demoted the head, Kornblau, as he now answers to someone.It wasn't clear to me from that. Does Kornblau now report to Ken Graffeo?
suspect Amazon have simply altered the formula by which they calculate HighDef disc rankings, to bring it inline with the formula used for DVDs. This will give a clearer picture of how HighDef is competing with DVD in the marketplace.I wonder if they just changed their rating system in general. One thing I find interesting is that I didn't see the PS3 come back in stock, yet its ranking shot up from about #140 in video games to about #24 and then back to #29.

If somebody could track the stock numbers for a DVD with a ranking of about 1000 to get an idea of how many sales a day it has, then we could compare that to estimates for HD DVDs or BDs from the stock numbers. I estimated the "Batman Begins" was selling around 24 copies a day when its ranking was averaging better than 1000 (I don't remember the exact numbers). Yesterday I checked and it didn't look like the sales had dropped off real far (around 20 copies per day for a couple of days), but the ranking had dropped a lot.

--Darin

BD100 is three layer. For >50 TDK has been going to a new 33GB per layer form.

Gary

And out of the ashes.....the path to 4Ks infancy....is born. :)

___________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Technically that is not accurate and no offense but you might want to read the definition of what an opinion is (http://www.answers.com/topic/opinion) since it is quite possible to have an opinion on something that is not based on evidence. That is why they call it an opinion and not a fact. Also for a bit of famous quotes about opinions try reading a few quotes from this website (http://www.jimpoz.com/quotes/category.asp?categoryid=43) such as this one from JFK that states "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."


Just curious but where have you been the last two years to make this type of statement as though it is something new? I have seen Amir, a HD DVD insider, post on certain topics for years often stating his opinions as facts and yet I don't remember you popping in and going after him for doing that. For instance Amir stated for years both in official interviews and on this forum that MPEG-4 AVC was incapable of encoding fine detail. Of course he no longer states that anymore but I remember him going to the Blu-ray sections of the forum and even posting that BS there. Don't get me wrong I do believe that opinions should be stated as opinions but consider me amazed that you are so surprised at this.

Not having knowledge or proof of something is not the same as something not existing. Taking a stance on something that doesn't exist falls far more accurately under the definition of 'speculation.'

But no matter. I wanted to see someone put up or shut up on the TL51/Gen1 claim. Someone put up. That's good enough for me.

I'm not surprised at people stating speculation as fact. I'll take your word on Amir's BS. I'm not trying to police the entire internet, but I've seen the TL51/Gen1 claim enough times with no reference to any source, that I got fired up when I saw it this thread, which is supposed to be distinguished from the other countless nonsense threads by a higher standard. But again, no matter, since Grubert put it to rest with a source.

It wasn't clear to me from that. Does Kornblau now report to Ken Graffeo?

--Darin

Kornblau may have the title of Head of Uni Home Entertainment, but if he has a direct superior in the same department, he is not the big man, simple business politics. If you want to get rid of someone without firing them (there are costly procedures involved in firing a director, i.e. buying out the contract) the easiest way of doing it is to put someone new above them without demoting them.

Kornblau may have the title of Head of Uni Home Entertainment, but if he has a direct superior in the same department, he is not the big man, simple business politics. If you want to get rid of someone without firing them (there are costly procedures involved in firing a director, i.e. buying out the contract) the easiest way of doing it is to put someone new above them without demoting them.I understand, but still not clear as to the answer to my question. Are you saying that Kornblau reports to Graffeo? Or to someone else? Basically, where did you get that he has a direct superior in the same department? I didn't think it was clear from what I read. I understand what it means if Kornblau was moved to be below somebody he wasn't below before, but just not clear that it says that. Maybe I missed something, because the way I read it I thought that Graffeo might report to Kornblau.

--Darin

I understand, but still not clear as to the answer to my question. Are you saying that Kornblau reports to Graffeo? Or to someone else? Basically, where did you get that he has a direct superior in the same department? I didn't think it was clear from what I read. I understand what it means if Kornblau was moved to be below somebody he wasn't below before, but just not clear that it says that. Maybe I missed something, because the way I read it I thought that Graffeo might report to Kornblau.

--Darin

Theatrical now runs Home Video, so the head of Home Video answers to the head of Theatrical, it is as simple as that.

I'm not surprised at people stating speculation as fact. I'll take your word on Amir's BS. I'm not trying to police the entire internet, but I've seen the TL51/Gen1 claim enough times with no reference to any source, that I got fired up when I saw it this thread, which is supposed to be distinguished from the other countless nonsense threads by a higher standard. But again, no matter, since Grubert put it to rest with a source.
Grubert's "source" works on HDD's not HD-DVD's

Grubert's "source" works on HDD's not HD-DVD's

Sorry, I don't follow. Please explain? I read the interview that Grubert posted, and the Toshiba engineer is talking about HD DVD.

He's a computer storage engineer, not HD equipment.
"Just a little background information - I'm not actually with the consumer group at Toshiba. I'm with the storage device division - we just make PC drives."

i.e. he isn't necessarily expert on NEC HD-DVD ROM drives, which I recall had been spec'd somewhere for TL.

I don't think the Amazon ratings have any sort of future projection, or search interest or any sort of interest calculation element in them, except for pre-sales.

Its current and historical sales, weighted by volume with an aging component.

BD100 is three layer. For >50 TDK has been going to a new 33GB per layer form.




I was showing 4 layer for the BD100 and 8 layer :eek: for the 200GB:

http://www.tdk.com/consumer/marketing/brd5.html

http://www.tdk.com/consumer/marketing/images/img_brd5_2.gif

I was showing 4 layer for the BD100 and 8 layer :eek: for the 200GB:
]

Criminy! I've had pretty substantial failure rate in longevity rate or plain old DVD-R's (up to 18-20%) over the last five years, both those I've bought and burned, so the idea of an 8 or even 4 layer makes my head spin.

Are these being widely used without trouble?

I don't think the Amazon ratings have any sort of future projection, or search interest or any sort of interest calculation element in them, except for pre-sales.

Its current and historical sales, weighted by volume with an aging component.
Presales can be misleading if there is an ongoing inventory shortage or delay(backorders), and these numbers are carried over a long period of time, or if there are a relatively large number of cancellations and their rating is not properly adjusted for them (e.g are cancellations aged - forward averaged like sales, or just dropped?). So there are questions on how they deal with them.

Also, hidef format sales are in the grass compared to DVD sales, so small changes in DVD sales can have large changes in hidef sales ranks. Also, the very low rankings would magnify change (one hidef sale could change a rank by a much larger factor)

He's a computer storage engineer, not HD equipment.
"Just a little background information - I'm not actually with the consumer group at Toshiba. I'm with the storage device division - we just make PC drives."

i.e. he isn't necessarily expert on NEC HD-DVD ROM drives, which I recall had been spec'd somewhere for TL.

Yep, the brochure for the NEC drive showed it could read triple layered 45GB HD DVD disks. I don't think they would have included that in the spec if it weren't true. If they can read 45GB, then they can probably read 51GB with a firmware update for the drive. It would amount to just a slight modification of the tracking to alow for the extra 2GB per layer.

Realistically, Toshiba is not going to abandon first generation owners with a standard unreadable by those players. Those owners constitute a very large bloc. The standard will be designed around the existing drives. As far as Toshiba's own drives (not NEC's) are concerned, you can be sure that they designed them with at least 45GB in mind, since they have been talking about that standard from the very beginning. The two extra GBs per layer doesn't change much about the basic tracking of the disk.

I wonder if a comparison could be made with early CDR blanks that were replaced with later larger capacity CDR blanks (as far as tracking is concerned). But the firmware in the early CD recorders could not be upgraded via software upload.

Let me add: If one is going to talk to an engineer, it should be one from NEC who actually designed that drive in the first place.

The Amazon sales rankings for both formats seem to be rebounding.

* sigh* sorry for the double post, but here's my take on the Universal announcement

http://www.variety.com/article/VR17...egoryid=20&cs=1

Kornblau’s chief marketing lieutenant, Ken Graffeo, will now focus on HD DVD, a big priority for the studio No giving up on HD DVD.

no major reduction in staffers is planned No one is being taken out and shot, so they are probably satisfied with the current situation. No panic from the Blu-ray sales or HD DVD sales rates.

The integration is an acknowledgement that homevid is no longer an “ancillary.” Perhaps more important, it is a clear indication of the continuity between the theatrical and homevideo windows. U also expects to save coin on ad buys. From an advertising perspective, what this means is that DVD releases will probably come closer to movie release windows and there will be closer continuity between the theater and DVD ads.

With a closer window for DVD HD DVD release expect to see more DVD ads with HD DVD tag lines that will start while the film is has just ended its general theatrical release or soon thereafter.

There probably will be more money spent on the initial DVD release advertising. Those spots will probably continue to have "Now available on DVD and HD DVD taglines"

Homevid divisions rely heavily on sales from major retailers, who map their strategies many months in advance. At the same time, the window between theatrical and homevid debuts has been shrinking — down from six months to four months or under in some cases.

Hence the need to closely coordinate activities, Fogelson said.

“There is a large but finite number of resources available to promote a film in both theatrical and homevideo,” Fogelson said. “You could make the decisions separately, but it’s even better to collaborate.” Overall this will probably mean more effective advertising for Universal's DVD HD DVD releases.

* sigh* sorry for the double post, but here's my take on the Universal announcement

http://www.variety.com/article/VR17...egoryid=20&cs=1

No giving up on HD DVD.

No one is being taken out and shot, so they are probably satisfied with the current situation. No panic from the Blu-ray sales or HD DVD sales rates.

From an advertising perspective, what this means is that DVD releases will probably come closer to movie release windows and there will be closer continuity between the theater and DVD ads.

With a closer window for DVD HD DVD release expect to see more DVD ads with HD DVD tag lines that will start while the film is has just ended its general theatrical release or soon thereafter.

There probably will be more money spent on the initial DVD release advertising. Those spots will probably continue to have "Now available on DVD and HD DVD taglines"

Overall this will probably mean more effective advertising for Universal's DVD HD DVD releases.

You can spin this anyway you want, but right now the only support Universal is showing on their web sites is having 6 titles (one is pre-order, I guess that is a good sign ;) ) that show up at the Universal online store. Otherwise HD-DVD doesn't exist online for Uni.

http://nbcuniversalstore.resultspage.com/search?p=Q&ts=custom&w=HD-DVD&x=8&y=5

So what are they doing, going stealth for a black-ops marketing campaign ??? :rolleyes:

b2b

They're building an army of course. Didn't you read the latest HD DVD playbook?!

Waiting for the Spring Offensives.

Nah, it's the army.

I really wouldn't expect Universal to abandon HD DVD outright. THey would first support Blu-ray, probably regionally (say, in Japan) and then 12-18 months later shift that to NA and/or world distro.

Maybe Kornblau will still be running HD DVD and someone else will be running the Universal Blu-ray efforts? :D

Realistically, Toshiba is not going to abandon first generation owners with a standard unreadable by those players. Those owners constitute a very large bloc.I think the Gen1s are a small enough group that Toshiba could do something to appease them. I think we pretty much all agree that it is 70k or less units and we are talking about the TL51 discs possibly coming out late this year (might be later than that but I don't remember the specifics). If those players can read the first 2 layers but have problems with the third, they could limit the movie to the first 2 during some transition period until they have given people a chance to move into newer players (possibly with a rebate). I don't think Toshiba will/would make the move to these discs unless Gen2 players could play them, but the Gen1 situation seems like it would be manageable.

--Darin

I think the Gen1s are a small enough group that Toshiba could do something to appease them. I think we pretty much all agree that it is 70k or less units and we are talking about the TL51 discs possibly coming out late this year (might be later than that but I don't remember the specifics). If those players can read the first 2 layers but have problems with the third, they could limit the movie to the first 2 during some transition period until they have given people a chance to move into newer players (possibly with a rebate). I don't think Toshiba will/would make the move to these discs if Gen2 players could play them, but the Gen1 situation seems like it would be manageable.

--Darin Agree totally.

I think its a real possibility that Toshiba could keep the goodwill of 1st generation owners by offering them a rebate to upgrade to a 2nd or 3rd generation unit when the TL51 are released. That would keep most Gen 1 owners happy.

If the third layer with only extra content was affected, the redemption rate and cost for the promotion might even be low, but the gesture would be appreciated.

Is putting the extras solely on the third layer possible? Wouldn't that require entirely new authoring tools, etc?

Would movies really need 51gb isnt that for computer storage?

The only time movies have needed more than 30gb is when they use old codecs. So stay way from old codecs...

Waiting for the Spring Offensives.
Well, if it's one thing they're good at, it's waiting. ;)

Would movies really need 51gb isnt that for computer storage?

The only time movies have needed more than 30gb is when they use old codecs. So stay way from old codecs...Depends on your definition of "needed" I guess. We still haven't seen 24/48 (or even 20/48) lossless audio on any movies in the US on HD DVD from what I've seen and "King Kong" didn't even include any lossless audio track (even 16/48). Also, extras have been SD for the large majority, but one of the promises of these new formats is HD extras. But I don't personally think the space of TL51s is a big deal unless they also up their bandwidth limitations (like by going to a 1.5x spin rate), since I believe their bandwidth ceiling has been their bigger issue. I think that is something that has caused them to take longer to do encodes even after foregoing 24/48 or 20/48 lossless audio and I believe the time to encode things was given as one of the reasons for the slowdown in releases on HD DVD since the holidays. With the space issue a 2nd disc can be used, but with bandwidth limitations there isn't a solution like that.

--Darin

Depends on your definition of "needed" I guess. We still haven't seen 24/48 (or even 20/48) lossless audio on any movies in the US on HD DVD from what I've seen and "King Kong" didn't even include any lossless audio track (even 16/48). Also, extras have been SD for the large majority, but one of the promises of these new formats is HD extras. But I don't personally think the space of TL51s is a big deal unless they also up their bandwidth limitations (like by going to a 1.5x spin rate), since I believe their bandwidth ceiling has been their bigger issue. I think that is something that has caused them to take longer to do encodes even after foregoing 24/48 or 20/48 lossless audio and I believe the time to encode things was given as one of the reasons for the slowdown in releases on HD DVD since the holidays. With the space issue a 2nd disc can be used, but with bandwidth limitations there isn't a solution like that.

--Darin

Why not just use TrueHD instead of PCM?

Jumping in again without knowing where I'll land. Is the desire for hi sample rate & bit depth lossless/uncompressed audio simply an attempt to substitute for the unsuccessful SACD and DVDA formats, that [nobody] wanted?

The Amazon sales rankings for both formats seem to be rebounding.

Thanks for the heads up. I've been watching the sales rankings on The Departed for both formats as well. They've been neck on neck. After HD-DVD leading for the last few days BD took the lead again. Last night Amazon was showing 1 copy left in stock for the HD-DVD version with more copies arriving on 2/25. They still show 7 used & new, and one of those listed is Amazon. I'm not sure exactly how they work that.

OT , but I fell over laughing that the issues of new technology adoption have not changed since the first real upgrade introduced in the dark ages :D

Puts J6P issues into perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRjVeRbhtRU&mode=related&search=

I Agree with 2channel. Use DolbyTrueHD. Thats gives good enough audio. PCM is just waste of bandwith.

My impression is that BlueRay uses old codecs(mpeg2) and PCM just to show why bandwith is important, not that it gives more quality.

I wonder if anybody could actually hear the difference between TrueHD and PCM?

Why not just use TrueHD instead of PCM?I was referring to studios who have used TrueHD when they do lossless, but still haven't done 24/48 or 20/48 TrueHD. TrueHD mostly helps with the space issue, which is another reason that TL51s without more bandwidth would be of limited utility. TrueHD doesn't do as much to help the bandwidth issue. If HD DVD didn't have TrueHD available as an option then they would have more of an issue, but even with it the situation is as I described.
Agree with 2channel. Use DolbyTrueHD.My post was already referring to using TrueHD or not using TrueHD.
My impression is that BlueRay uses old codecs(mpeg2) and PCM just to show why bandwith is important, not that it gives more quality.Why do you believe HD DVD movies from the major studios in the US have been limited to 16/48 for the TrueHD they use on HD DVD, even though they are mostly using VC-1 already and why is the percentage of discs with lossless (even with TrueHD) so low on HD DVD? If HD DVD adds TL51 discs with 1.5x spin rate and ups their bandwidth ceiling I think we will start seeing a lot more lossless tracks and less of this cutting a master down to 16/48 before compression on HD DVDs.

--Darin

But how do you then explain those HD DVDs that have been released with TrueHD and have excellent picture and audio quality. Doesnt seem that bandwith was a problem for them?

*EDIT* the point is that nobody ahs that good hearing they can actually here the difference between TrueHD on HD DVD and PCM on blueray. They can claim they hear, but they wouldnt pass a "blind" test.

But how do you then explain those HD DVDs that have been released with TrueHD and have excellent picture and audio quality. Doesnt seem that bandwith was a problem for them?Sources vary a lot and when a format is built with certain limitations it of course won't be a problem for every source. Doesn't even need to be for the majority. Once again, the TrueHD on major releases in the US has been limited to 16/48 instead of using 20/48 or 24/48, meaning that it really isn't lossless from the original master if the original master is 24/48. Why do you think that is? (And that isn't a TrueHD vs PCM question). If you had a moving truck with a lower ceiling than another one it wouldn't be a problem for every household that decides to move and bandwidth limitations won't be a problem for every encode.

Plus there is the issue of time to encode that I already mentioned. "Batman Begins" looks like it took weeks to do. I think it looks very good, but studios aren't going to be willing to put in large amounts of time for encodes forever and we have already heard something from an HD DVD insider about Paramount doing an encode for "Babel" that this insider implies isn't true to the master because they wanted to save time for the HD DVD encode.
*EDIT* the point is that nobody ahs that good hearing they can actually here the difference between TrueHD on HD DVD and PCM on blueray. They can claim they hear, but they wouldnt pass a "blind" test.That's the point? I thought this was your point:
Would movies really need 51gb isnt that for computer storage?

The only time movies have needed more than 30gb is when they use old codecs. So stay way from old codecs...I addressed why bandwidth mattered and then 2Channel and you seemed to think that TrueHD solved that problem, but it doesn't. It helps, but much moreso with space than with bandwidth. Can we skip the arguments about whether TrueHD or PCM sound better and address the issue even with the use of VC-1 and TrueHD?

--Darin

But how do you then explain those HD DVDs that have been released with TrueHD and have excellent picture and audio quality. Doesnt seem that bandwith was a problem for them?

*EDIT* the point is that nobody ahs that good hearing they can actually here the difference between TrueHD on HD DVD and PCM on blueray. They can claim they hear, but they wouldnt pass a "blind" test.
My guess is, you are correct. I'm looking forward to the days ahead as we should see some credible, blind tests soon.

Sources vary a lot and when a format is built with certain limitations it of course won't be a problem for every source. Once again, the TrueHD on major releases in the US has been limited to 16/48 instead of using 20/48 or 24/48, meaning that it really isn't lossless from the original master if the original master is 24/48. If you had a moving truck with a lower ceiling than another one it wouldn't be a problem for every household that decides to move.
That's the point? I thought this was your point:
I addressed why bandwidth mattered and then 2Channel and you seemed to think that TrueHD solved that problem, but it doesn't. It helps, but much moreso with space than with bandwidth. Can we skip the arguments about whether TrueHD or PCM sound better and address the issue even with the use of VC-1 and TrueHD?

--Darin

So, there is the principle of the thing (why not have 24/96?) and there is what is discernable. Let's put aside J6P, who is downloading MP3s right now, and focus on us. Have you done your own testing with various source material played back through your system?

As an excercise once, I took some of my Hybrid SACDs and used the SACD layer, CD layer and mutliple mp3 encodes of the same material burned onto a seperate disk 128kb/192kb/256kb/320kb to understand what differences I could detect.

Let's just say I have a better understanding of why most people are satisfied downloading their music. Of course, one of my friends tells me that my problem is that I'm not using a tube amp, but I think he's biased. ;)

But how do you then explain those HD DVDs that have been released with TrueHD and have excellent picture and audio quality. Doesnt seem that bandwith was a problem for them?

they don't, they have very good PQ and AQ. If you search Cjplay's posts you can find one or two where he mentions that WB had to make a new master at 16/48 of some movies that were 20/48 (or 24/48) because the DTHD from the original was too much to handle and they decided it was better to sacrifice AQ then the VQ they had.

Can we skip the arguments about whether TrueHD or PCM sound better and address the issue even with the use of VC-1 and TrueHD?

--Darin

Thats not why im going to HD, i want the best "detectable" quality for a fair amount of money.

And so far

VC1 encoded movies with DolbyTrueHD on 30GB DL-disc gives me the quality I want, were MPEG2 encoded movies with PCM on 25GB SS-disc dont give me that. sure Blueray disc have every potential the be as good as HD DVD, but many disc isnt. And thats the only thing I care about, the quality.

When I watched DVD, sound have never been an issue for me. Dolby digital worked fine with me, never did I think, if only the sound could be better. The picture quality was someting that bothered me it didnt gave me the same fell as when im sitting in a Cinema. Actually the sound was better in my Home theater because I had the remote, not the guy that handles the projector at the theater.

So even if TrueHD with higher bitrate is better than TrueHD with HD DVDs bitrate, its not detectable better. And its a non issue for me when im choosing beween HDDVD and Blueray.

Would movies really need 51gb isnt that for computer storage?

The only time movies have needed more than 30gb is when they use old codecs. So stay way from old codecs...

What about to attract a studio that may consider 50gig important?

How about to make it easier to master a disk of a movie that is already mastered on 50gig in BD?

I can't imagine Toshiba would bother to go for 51G unless thier was some direct reason to believe some studio wanted it....

Is there any evidence that the 51gb ever was for HD DVD video? We can speculate all day long (well night for me). But I have never found any info from Toshiba that this is for Video use.

Even if studios have 50GB masters is MPEG2. Is that really the spec for HD material on HD DVD? I was on the assumption than MPEG2 was only allowed for SD material on HD DVD.

darinp2

And if your moving truck had too high a ceiling you would run into overpasses.

darinp2

And if your moving truck had too high a ceiling you would run into overpasses.No perfect analogies, but there aren't overpasses with these formats as far as I can see. Maybe I should have used a house analogy, but then you might have found something there too. :)

I would like to see HD DVD go to a 1.5x spin rate with higher bandwidth ceiling even if they never go to triple layer discs. But the triple layer discs seem like an opportunity for HD DVD to go to a higher minimum spin rate at the same time and instead of talking up lossless audio as a great thing like we were getting last summer, moving to finding reasons that we shouldn't want real lossless since it turned out to be more difficult within their bandwidth ceiling than they likely thought it would be.

--Darin

Is there any evidence that the 51gb ever was for HD DVD video? We can speculate all day long (well night for me). But I have never found any info from Toshiba that this is for Video use.As hard as it is to get any actual info on TL51 all indications are that it is for HD-DVD-Video use. Than again TL51 is at the moment only a proposal that Toshiba is planning to submit to the DVD Forum which might approve it. Which in my opinion sounds a lot like TL45 which was promoted back in May of 2005.


Even if studios have 50GB masters is MPEG2. Is that really the spec for HD material on HD DVD? I was on the assumption than MPEG2 was only allowed for SD material on HD DVD.Not at all, though it is very rare in the US there is the occasional HD DVD disc that uses MPEG-2 for the main feature (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/chronos.html). Also I would point out that it is not just 50 GB MPEG-2 discs but also some 50 GB MPEG-4 AVC discs (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/prestige.html) and 50 GB VC-1 discs (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/flightplan.html).

the HDNet HD DVD discs are MPEG2 at 1080i since they were recorded that way with HD video cameras.

He's a computer storage engineer, not HD equipment.
"Just a little background information - I'm not actually with the consumer group at Toshiba. I'm with the storage device division - we just make PC drives."Where do you think the drives which go into Toshiba consumer equipment come from? The storage device division. There's one place optical drives are designed/manufactured, they don't have separate optical storage divisions for CE vs PC usage. The engineer is fully qualified to speak on this matter, based on his reported job title.
i.e. he isn't necessarily expert on NEC HD-DVD ROM drives, which I recall had been spec'd somewhere for TL.How do they spec something for TL when no spec existed/exists?

Yep, the brochure for the NEC drive showed it could read triple layered 45GB HD DVD disks. I don't think they would have included that in the spec if it weren't true. If they can read 45GB, then they can probably read 51GB with a firmware update for the drive. It would amount to just a slight modification of the tracking to alow for the extra 2GB per layer. You're ignoring the increasing difficulty with error rates in the third layer, especially if you're trying to pack the data closer together than the original spec supported.

here's my take on the Universal announcement
no major reduction in staffers is planned
No one is being taken out and shot, so they are probably satisfied with the current situation.You can take out three or four executives and shoot them for exclusively support HD DVD and it wouldn't be a major reduction in staffers. Your conclusion is not supported by the quote.

I wonder if anybody could actually hear the difference between TrueHD and PCM?The Highdefdigest reviewer for The Departed could. In blind testing with a friend in all four instances where they could detect a difference they selected PCM as the better-sounding audio.

The Highdefdigest reviewer for The Departed could. In blind testing with a friend in all four instances where they could detect a difference they selected PCM as the better-sounding audio.

That was a disingenuous answer.

"I wonder if anybody could actually hear the difference between TrueHD and PCM?"


In 16 out of 20 test, the answer was no. In 4, they thought they might have been able to hear a difference, but since the didn't calibrate the equipment before hand, that could have been due to PCM being slightly louder. And it wasn't even a double blind test.

As hard as it is to get any actual info on TL51 all indications are that it is for HD-DVD-Video use. Than again TL51 is at the moment only a proposal that Toshiba is planning to submit to the DVD Forum which might approve it. Which in my opinion sounds a lot like TL45 which was promoted back in May of 2005.


Not at all, though it is very rare in the US there is the occasional HD DVD disc that uses MPEG-2 for the main feature (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/chronos.html). Also I would point out that it is not just 50 GB MPEG-2 discs but also some 50 GB MPEG-4 AVC discs (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/prestige.html) and 50 GB VC-1 discs (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/flightplan.html).

Looking at the current list on hidefdigest.com, I see 34 BD-50s (out of 153 BD reviews). 21 out of the 34 BD-50s are Mpeg2. 9 titles are VC1 and 7 of those are available with the same encode on HD-DVD-30. The remaining 4 titles are AVC.

Of the 7 BD-50 VC1 titles all PQ and AQ scores are the same except for Superman Returns which scored 5 out of 5 for AQ on HD-DVD and 4 out of 5 for AQ on BD.

The Highdefdigest reviewer for The Departed could. In blind testing with a friend in all four instances where they could detect a difference they selected PCM as the better-sounding audio.

Please Talk. First of all they both got the same score for AQ. As for the subtle differences they detected, perhaps these were due to differences in the signal level or audio path of the two players.

The Highdefdigest reviewer for The Departed could. In blind testing with a friend in all four instances where they could detect a difference they selected PCM as the better-sounding audio.

You're apparently attempting to reach something which is exceeding your grasp, as the means under which this comparison was made didn't satisfy any scientific criteria; therefore, it's meaningless.

So on Friday, on the way to work, I got to hear a little head to head radio action for both HD-DVD and BluRay.

First up was an HD-DVD commercial on KCBS. During the thirty second add they must have said "HD-DVD" about twenty times, and in that really excited "I'm the king of big screens" kinda voice. The main focus of the ad was explaining how great the Toshiba player would make your regular DVD's look and how great high definition looked.

I found the add kinda annoying - not slamming Toshiba because it is hard to explain over the radio. The only interesting thing to me was how awkward "HD-DVD" sounded when hearing it. If you read it, you immediately know what it is. When you hear it, it is five syllables that don't go great together. Throw in an internet address and you have fifteen syllables before you hit a real word.


So after traffic I starting flipping through FM channels. I got to Sarah and NoName on Alice and they were talking to John Lassiter - yes the guy from Pixar, and a friend of theirs (he had them "appear" in Cars). He was telling them how their characters were going to come out as toys, and blah balh blah.

Then he started talking excitedly about all the stuff for Cars they have added to the BluRay edition - all the games, added vignettes, and all the extra detail that shows up.

I thought BluRay sounded as dumb of a name over the radio as it looks in print. But it isn't the name of either that sells formats, or kills them, it is the content. You look at how The Departed is doing for both formats - they are for the most part kneck and kneck on the charts. You look at how the formats are doing overall with sales and BluRay is currently smoking HD-DVD (yes I know not on a per player basis but overall) just because of the content.

Having Kong exclusive was big, but it is going to be very, very hard for for HD-DVD to survive the releases of Pirates and Cars. Those three movies more than any other are just going to scream, "HELLO THERE IS A FORMAT WAR AND DISNEY ONLY RELEASES ON THIS ONE!!" The Departed is an excellent movie, as is The Prestige, but Cars and Pirates are mass buys by everyone. If Sony releases Spider Man 1&2 soon it's over.

VC1 encoded movies with DolbyTrueHD on 30GB DL-disc gives me the quality I want, were MPEG2 encoded movies with PCM on 25GB SS-disc dont give me that.

Ice Age: The Meltdown (DTS MA)
Tears of the Sun (PCM)
Underworld: Evolution (PCM)
Kung Fu Hustle (PCM)
Transporter 2 (DTS MA)
Fantastic 4 (DTS MA)
Into the Blue (PCM)
Monster House (PCM)
Behind Enemy Lines (DTS MA)

From this forum a list of top quality transfers using MPEG2 and PCM or DTS MA lossless audio on a single layer disc.

Compare apples to apples (dual layer to dual layer) there are plenty of 50GB MPEG2 titles with PCM or DTS MA to choose from.

How many HD DVDs *have* Dolby TrueHD after all?

Face it, with 30GB discs you have seen pretty much all HD DVD has to offer, whereas BD has plenty of room to grow. MPEG4 AVC is only one step to increasing the advantage even more. All HD DVD can promise is more and more compression.

The Highdefdigest reviewer for The Departed could. In blind testing with a friend in all four instances where they could detect a difference they selected PCM as the better-sounding audio.In my 55 years being a audio buff...I really can not hear the difference with TrueHD and PCM. So the average consumer won't either. This is way over done. I also had a few A/V buddies over and we did the blind test and none of us thought one sounded better than the other. ;)

In my 55 years being a audio buff...I really can not hear the difference with TrueHD and PCM. So the average consumer won't either. This is way over done. I also had a few A/V buddies over and we did the blind test and none of us thought one sounded better than the other. ;)
From what I've gathered, I'm guessing the differences are likely to be even less than SACD vs. CD which, as we all know was not enough to sell SACD.

For those with BD and PCM, great! How could you go wrong? But I wouldn't try to use that as a tool to argue against HD DVD in this war.

The Highdefdigest reviewer for The Departed could. In blind testing with a friend in all four instances where they could detect a difference they selected PCM as the better-sounding audio.

This proves my suspicion that BD members peddle snakeoil ...

Pls see these reviews and recommend expensive cables as well ... and this is by the "venerable" stereophile ....

http://www.stereophile.com/cables/

That was a disingenuous answer.

"I wonder if anybody could actually hear the difference between TrueHD and PCM?"


In 16 out of 20 test, the answer was no. In 4, they thought they might have been able to hear a difference, but since the didn't calibrate the equipment before hand, that could have been due to PCM being slightly louder. And it wasn't even a double blind test.

Yep, sounds like more crooked talk from a professional spinner.

This proves my suspicion that BD members peddle snakeoil ...

Pls see these reviews and recommend expensive cables as well ... and this is by the "venerable" stereophile ....

http://www.stereophile.com/cables/
I am considered a BD member. Is my post above "snakeoil?"

Easy on the generalizations. Until HD DVD fans went on the defensive, there were, at least equal amounts of "snakeoil" from both sides.

I am considered a BD member. Is my post above "snakeoil?"

Easy on the generalizations. Until HD DVD fans went on the defensive, there were, at least equal amounts of "snakeoil" from both sides.

Talk has a way about him that really draws people out. ;)

As for your post, it basically said PCM = SACD and TrueHD = CD. As I understand it PCM and TrueHD are both lossless*, though TrueHD reduces space by using lossless compression. Both discs should sound the same if they use the same bit depth and sampling rate. If they don't, it bears further investigation.

*Yes, I understand that if you reduce the bit depth/sampling rate from the master as part of the PCM/TrueHD encode you are not lossless from the master.

If you're a BD insider, shouldn't you identify yourself as such?

In my 55 years being a audio buff...I really can not hear the difference with TrueHD and PCM.

Well, generally hearing gets worse with age... :D

I keed I keed. Seriously, there shouldn't really be any differences anyway, since the job of Dolby TrueHD is to offer a lossless compressed soundtrack. The PCM version is *should* be the exact same soundtrack without any kind of processing.

The advantage would be multichannel PCM is required and offered by all BD players, including the PS3. Dolby TrueHD may be mandatory for HD DVD, but the XBOX 360 does not offer any way to reproduce the soundtrack losslessly (unprocessed/unconverted) and the spec only calls for 2 channel decoding, so conceivably there could be HD DVD players in the future (say, a Shinco type) that only offer either decoding or 2 channel output.

it basically said PCM = SACD and TrueHD = CD

I would say TrueHD = DVD-Audio, PCM = SACD (if it's 24 bit that is)

Talk has a way about him that really draws people out. ;)

As for your post, it basically said PCM = SACD and TrueHD = CD. As I understand it PCM and TrueHD are both lossless*, though TrueHD reduces space by using lossless compression. Both discs should sound the same if they use the same bit depth and sampling rate. If they don't, it bears further investigation.

*Yes, I understand that if you reduce the bit depth/sampling rate from the master as part of the PCM/TrueHD encode you are not lossless from the master.

If you're a BD insider, shouldn't you identify yourself as such?
1. I recommend you read my post again. To be clear, I said, "I'm guessing the differences are likely to be even less than SACD vs. CD."

I'm looking forward to some blind tests and will not be a bit surprised if they are found to be equal.

2. I'm having a difficult time deciphering with whom you are speaking. Personally, I believe that it should be required of insiders to disclose their status somewhere in their signature and I, like many others have petitioned the mods to create and enforce such a rule. As far as I know, they are still considering it.

Again, if you're asking me, no, I am not an insider; not even close and yes, if I was I believe I should disclose that.

The Highdefdigest reviewer for The Departed could. In blind testing with a friend in all four instances where they could detect a difference they selected PCM as the better-sounding audio.

So your implying that MLP (TrueHD) is not lossless to the PCM master then?

I am considered a BD member. Is my post above "snakeoil?"

Easy on the generalizations. Until HD DVD fans went on the defensive, there were, at least equal amounts of "snakeoil" from both sides.

and what if you legitimately have a dry snake? ;)

I still think your going neutral some day :)

darinp2

And if your moving truck had too high a ceiling you would run into overpasses. Overpasses are infastructure that costs money. :D

Replacing all those and the on ramps (replication facilities) from the DVD infastructure costs money and the highway lane width must be.......I..... must...... stop.... myself........... :eek:

and what if you legitimately have a dry snake? ;)
It's confirmed, still virile. ;)

I still think your going neutral some day :)
Well if Universal never does, then I'll be forced to. Couldn't imagine HD optical without BSG. :)

So on Friday, on the way to work, I got to hear a little head to head radio action for both HD-DVD and BluRay.

First up was an HD-DVD commercial on KCBS. During the thirty second add they must have said "HD-DVD" about twenty times, and in that really excited "I'm the king of big screens" kinda voice. The main focus of the ad was explaining how great the Toshiba player would make your regular DVD's look and how great high definition looked.

I found the add kinda annoying - not slamming Toshiba because it is hard to explain over the radio. The only interesting thing to me was how awkward "HD-DVD" sounded when hearing it. If you read it, you immediately know what it is. When you hear it, it is five syllables that don't go great together. Throw in an internet address and you have fifteen syllables before you hit a real word.


So after traffic I starting flipping through FM channels. I got to Sarah and NoName on Alice and they were talking to John Lassiter - yes the guy from Pixar, and a friend of theirs (he had them "appear" in Cars). He was telling them how their characters were going to come out as toys, and blah balh blah.

Then he started talking excitedly about all the stuff for Cars they have added to the BluRay edition - all the games, added vignettes, and all the extra detail that shows up.

I thought BluRay sounded as dumb of a name over the radio as it looks in print. But it isn't the name of either that sells formats, or kills them, it is the content. You look at how The Departed is doing for both formats - they are for the most part kneck and kneck on the charts. You look at how the formats are doing overall with sales and BluRay is currently smoking HD-DVD (yes I know not on a per player basis but overall) just because of the content.

Having Kong exclusive was big, but it is going to be very, very hard for for HD-DVD to survive the releases of Pirates and Cars. Those three movies more than any other are just going to scream, "HELLO THERE IS A FORMAT WAR AND DISNEY ONLY RELEASES ON THIS ONE!!" The Departed is an excellent movie, as is The Prestige, but Cars and Pirates are mass buys by everyone. If Sony releases Spider Man 1&2 soon it's over. Tell you a secret. Slight annoyance in a ad is not a bad thing, especially a radio commmercial which you will soon forget any details of anyway. But your brain did get the couple of points the ad was designed to impart.

From an advertising perspective having a consumer identify that a phrase was repeated a lot and was annoying is a very good thing.

People get over the "annoying part" the memory and recollection and top of mind awareness of the phrase " HD DVD" is the important part. The fact that it linked HD DVD with big screens HDTVs and with HD DVD making regular DVDs looking better is all linking positive traits and feelings to HD DVD which are building on things the consumer already knows as good.

It a major advantage of HD DVD, as consumers have positive thoughts about DVDs and HDTVs.

Sounds like an effective ad. Annoying is temporary, building a positive association one advertising impression at a time can be a long term good thing.

That ad started associations of there is now HD DVD, that makes DVD better, and goes along with those big new good HDTVs.

Tell you a secret. Slight annoyance in a ad is not a bad thing, especially a radio commmercial which you will soon forget any details of anyway. But your brain did get the couple of points the ad was designed to impart.

From an advertising perspective having a consumer identify that a phrase was repeated a lot and was annoying is a very good thing.

People get over the "annoying part" the memory and recollection and top of mind awareness of the phrase " HD DVD" is the important part. The fact that it linked HD DVD with big screens HDTVs , with making regular DVDs looking better is all showing positive traits building on things consumer always know as good.

Sounds like an effective ad. Annoying is temporary, building a positive association one advertising impression at a time can be a long term good thing.

That ad started associations of there is now HD DVD, that makes DVD better, and goes along with those big new good HDTVs.
Agreed.

An ad like this is good for HD Optical period. Both sides could use a lot more like them.

Now Kosty, BSG is over. Go to bed! I know I am.

Goodnight

I think the Gen1s are a small enough group that Toshiba could do something to appease them. I think we pretty much all agree that it is 70k or less units and we are talking about the TL51 discs possibly coming out late this year (might be later than that but I don't remember the specifics). If those players can read the first 2 layers but have problems with the third, they could limit the movie to the first 2 during some transition period until they have given people a chance to move into newer players (possibly with a rebate). I don't think Toshiba will/would make the move to these discs unless Gen2 players could play them, but the Gen1 situation seems like it would be manageable.

--Darin

While Toshiba might want to go by this or a similar approach with TL51 discs if they become a standard, I doubt the moviestudios want to make use of them for as long as a considerable number of HD-DVD owners out there, own players not able to read the discs.

Regarding the position of Universal, I sometimes wonder how much they really want to be HD-DVD's 'knight in shining armour'? I mean - it's not their format to push - is it? It seems a lot of HD-DVD owners/entutiasts out there regard Universal as the strongest card of the HD-DVD group - but are Universal really gaining from this position or are they 'painting themselves slowly into a corner', while sticking with HD-DVD. How long until someone inside the company starts calculating the numbers (if the current pro-BD trend in sales continues) and take the overall strategy up for revision?

Just some thoughts... :rolleyes:

Ice Age: The Meltdown (DTS MA)
Tears of the Sun (PCM)
Underworld: Evolution (PCM)
Kung Fu Hustle (PCM)
Transporter 2 (DTS MA)
Fantastic 4 (DTS MA)
Into the Blue (PCM)
Monster House (PCM)
Behind Enemy Lines (DTS MA)

From this forum a list of top quality transfers using MPEG2 and PCM or DTS MA lossless audio on a single layer disc.

Compare apples to apples (dual layer to dual layer) there are plenty of 50GB MPEG2 titles with PCM or DTS MA to choose from.

How many HD DVDs *have* Dolby TrueHD after all?

Face it, with 30GB discs you have seen pretty much all HD DVD has to offer, whereas BD has plenty of room to grow. MPEG4 AVC is only one step to increasing the advantage even more. All HD DVD can promise is more and more compression.

Well even if im intrested in technology, i never get impressed by spec on paper. Its not how good Blueray can be that have gotten me less intrested in the format its how bad the companys have handled it. If 50GB MPEG4 with PCM is the best way watching movies, why do they release 25GB MPEG2 with PCM? Is it for the consumers benefit or just that the big companies will save money on royalities. So even if Blueray could be a fantastic format, it in many cases isnt. And if HD DVD would vanish, im not convinced we dont get more of these 25gb mpeg2 releases, because they have already showed that bringing the best blueray releases they can, isnt a priority for them.

And the fact that its more expensive dosnt impress me.

Face it, with 30GB discs you have seen pretty much all HD DVD has to offer, whereas BD has plenty of room to grow.

MPEG4 AVC is only one step to increasing the advantage even more.

All HD DVD can promise is more and more compression.

There are features and interactivity available on HD30's that are still not available at all or efficiently on BR discs.

Continuing to progress with being able to fit more content in the same amount of storage space without loss of quality is a good thing for any format.

HD DVD has announced more then just advancements in compression and has been pretty consistent so far with reaching there goals.

To think either format doesn’t have any more room to grow is extremely short sited as both continue to progress in technology.

The Highdefdigest reviewer for The Departed could. In blind testing with a friend in all four instances where they could detect a difference they selected PCM as the better-sounding audio.

But more accurate to the originals?

We've had round after round of discussion about this in the video realm, and it's been generally accepted that the what's really needed is a way to compare to the master. It may be possile to filter a movie slightly to get "better-looking" video with a particularly grainy source, but that's not more accurate.

Similarly, one track could have been"better-sounding", but was it more true to the master? Hard to say.

It was also pointed out in that discussion that there was no indication of level-matching between the tests. Humans generally will picker a louder source as "better", as well.

OT , but I fell over laughing that the issues of new technology adoption have not changed since the first real upgrade introduced in the dark ages :D

Puts J6P issues into perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRjVeRbhtRU&mode=related&search=
Heh! Loved it! :p

Heh! Loved it! :p
Would only play for two seconds before freezing and stopping. :confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRjVeRbhtRU

try this URL

(Oh course with your user problems in vieweing it, it will be even more funny when you see it.) :D

P.S. I really think its kinda OT for all the J6P discussions we have here and the basic human issues of dealing with technological change.

"so, that actually matters". LOL how true is that sketch. reminds me of my dad trying tp programs his first VHS recorder

Or blinking ":12:00: or 00:00 's

You're ignoring the increasing difficulty with error rates in the third layer, especially if you're trying to pack the data closer together than the original spec supported.

The same would apply to triple-layer Blu-ray at 33GB per layer, if the 100GB disks are indeed triple-layered.

I'm not ignoring the increasing difficulty, but difficulty is not the same as impossibility. Apparently Toshiba discovered that the 2 GB addition was quite doable.

You maintained that the first generation Toshibas would not be able to read the 51GB disks (I assume you meant even with firmware upgrades).

That assumption was premature and too strong. And I repeat what I said before: I would like to hear from an NEC engineer about what the NEC 1100A drives can or cannot do, especially since the brochure indicated they were capable of reading 45GB.

It is always risky to say what can or cannot be done in advance. For example, I might claim that BD-J implementation will not be on time and will be incomplete.

See how easy it is to state difficulties as impossibilities, especially when speaking of the "other format"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRjVeRbhtRU

try this URL

(Oh course with your user problems in vieweing it, it will be even more funny when you see it.) :D

P.S. I really think its kinda OT for all the J6P discussions we have here and the basic human issues of dealing with technological change.
Thanks! :D

From a trusted little birdy:

- Denon, Daewoo, and Mitsubishi will be releasing Blu-ray players.

- In addition to the Funai, there is another sub-$500 SRP BD player coming from a "major CE".

- LG will only create universal players until a clear winning format starts to emerge, and they will then switch to that format as quickly as possible to lower costs.

- The Onkyo HD DVD player will be based on a Toshiba deck. So, basically it will be a rebadge.

My comments:

I trust the source. You should consider this all hearsay.

The LG info is definitely counter to the general notion that universal players are the next big thing. It looks more like LG wants to keep itself active in both camps so they can have the expertise ready to go single format for either.

Don't expect Denon or the others to be announced until they are close to be being ready to be shipped.

I wonder if Denon is an offshoot of the Funai announcement, since Funai makes many of Denon's DVD players?

Gary

I wonder if Denon is an offshoot of the Funai announcement, since Funai makes many of Denon's DVD players?

Gary

Sounds likely, especially since Funai doesn't usually put their own name on their products, but sells them under other brand names.

From a trusted little birdy:

- Denon, Daewoo, and Mitsubishi will be releasing Blu-ray players.

- In addition to the Funai, there is another sub-$500 SRP BD player coming from a "major CE".

- LG will only create universal players until a clear winning format starts to emerge, and they will then switch to that format as quickly as possible to lower costs.

- The Onkyo HD DVD player will be based on a Toshiba deck. So, basically it will be a rebadge.

My comments:

I trust the source. You should consider this all hearsay.

The LG info is definitely counter to the general notion that universal players are the next big thing. It looks more like LG wants to keep itself active in both camps so they can have the expertise ready to go single format for either.

Don't expect Denon or the others to be announced until they are close to be being ready to be shipped.

I wonder if Denon is an offshoot of the Funai announcement, since Funai makes many of Denon's DVD players?

Gary
Interesting.

Denon can't stay out of this game forever.

I think it's likely we will see plenty of announcements like this as the days pass. There are 52 cards in the deck and we've only seen a few hands.

Again, if you're asking me, no, I am not an insider; not even close and yes, if I was I believe I should disclose that.

Thanks Sketcha, I did not mean to upset you. I wasn't sure how to interpret your comment about being a "BD member." In any case, your answer cleared up all doubts. I appreciate your posts by the way.

From a trusted little birdy:

- Denon, Daewoo, and Mitsubishi will be releasing Blu-ray players.

- In addition to the Funai, there is another sub-$500 SRP BD player coming from a "major CE".

- LG will only create universal players until a clear winning format starts to emerge, and they will then switch to that format as quickly as possible to lower costs.

- The Onkyo HD DVD player will be based on a Toshiba deck. So, basically it will be a rebadge.

My comments:

I trust the source. You should consider this all hearsay.

The LG info is definitely counter to the general notion that universal players are the next big thing. It looks more like LG wants to keep itself active in both camps so they can have the expertise ready to go single format for either.

Don't expect Denon or the others to be announced until they are close to be being ready to be shipped.

I wonder if Denon is an offshoot of the Funai announcement, since Funai makes many of Denon's DVD players?

Gary

Thanks Gary, interesting stuff. Looks like there will be a lot of options on both sides by Christmas time.

Just curious on two points. Do you believe universal players are a passing fad? Do your comments about LGs view of the player market come from someone who works at LG?

Thanks Sketcha, I did not mean to upset you. I wasn't sure how to interpret your comment about being a "BD member." In any case, your answer cleared up all doubts. I appreciate your posts by the way.
Thanks, I appreciate yours as well.

I wasn't upset. You'll know when I'm upset. ;) I can be a bit fiery at times. Don't know if it's the Irish or the German in me. Could be both. :D

I think "BD member" was a poor choice of words. I don't know what label to put on myself. I wouldn't call myself a fan. If so, then fair weathered, at best.

I've simply picked a horse based on what info I have.

So I guess I'm more of a "BD horse-picker" or "nose-picker" or something like that.

From a trusted little birdy:


I wonder how long it will take for all of this to be repeated as a certain fact....

From a trusted little birdy:...

My comments:

I trust the source. You should consider this all hearsay.
My comments - that's all very well and nice, but is just as much FUD as anything else, unless we know it's true...

Just thought I'd point out the obvious. ;)

I wonder how long it will take for all of this to be repeated as a certain fact....
I heard at least 3 of the items on Gary's list in mid-2006, and revealed, or at least alluded to 2 of them, in posts later that year.

The distinction between rumor and fact in this instance, barring any unusual setbacks, should be resolved in favor of the latter. :)

________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

More BR players to devide the 50% standalone player market share.

What HD really needs is lots of releases flooding retail space. As long as the HD format bins are tiny and very expensive compared to the mass of SD DVD releases the mass market consumer isn't going to take HD serious.

My comments - that's all very well and nice, but is just as much FUD as anything else, unless we know it's true...

Just thought I'd point out the obvious. ;)

FUD? Fear, uncertainty and doubt? That more CE's are possibly introducing Blu-ray players? I would rather call it possibly good news. We'll know soon enough.

My comments - that's all very well and nice, but is just as much FUD as anything else, unless we know it's true...

Just thought I'd point out the obvious. ;)
Here are pictures of at least one of those players (Mitsubishi) from *last year's* CES.

http://www.blu-ray.com/images/ces2006/mitsubishi_02.jpg
http://www.blu-ray.com/images/ces2006/mitsubishi_03.jpg
http://www.blu-ray.com/images/ces2006/mitsubishi_04.jpg

Oh and I'd also like to point out the obvious in saying that people really misuse the term FUD around here. :rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C_uncertainty_and_doubt

I heard at least 3 of the items on Gary's list in mid-2006, and revealed, or at least alluded to 2 of them, in posts later that year.

The distinction between rumor and fact in this instance, barring any unusual setbacks, should be resolved in favor of the latter. :)

________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind


I remember that.

Actually, from what I've heard, there will in fact, be several BD recorders released before end of 2006. ;)

_____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6859755&&#post6859755

That was from January of last year, in your "Is HD DVD essentially dead in the water at this point?" poll you posted in October 05.


I don't know, I'll wait and see. Not that I doubt anyone will come out with anymore BD players. But in total, I'm a bit skeptical.

Here are pictures of at least one of those players (Mitsubishi) from *last year's* CES.



Oh and I'd also like to point out the obvious in saying that people really misuse the term FUD around here. :rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C_uncertainty_and_doubt
Wow, FUD comes with pictures now? :rolleyes:

I guess there could be a level of "Fear" felt by those that wish there weren't more "Good News" for BD.

That's a nice doorstep. With that special light around it you are guaranteed not to trip over it.

I am considered a BD member.

What do you mean ? You are (personally) a paid member of BDA ? Is your company a paid member ? In that case why is it not in your signature.

- In addition to the Funai, there is another sub-$500 SRP BD player coming from a "major CE".


I think BD will continue to be in the chasing HD DVD's tail mode when it comes to CE player prices and interactivity capabilities.

What do you mean ? You are (personally) a paid member of BDA ? Is your company a paid member ? In that case why is it not in your signature.
I guess I should give you a little time to catch up with some more posts.

Looking back, I can see you may have been attacking Talkstr8t, specifically as a "BD member." It is clear from his sig. that he is a "Blu-ray Insider." I don't know how he bacame a "member" of "BD," though. Perhaps you can explain that one. I have never heard of any Blu-ray club called BD. He may, however be a member of the BDA. I don't know. Maybe you do.

When I think of "BD member", I think of it relating more to BD fans than a member of the BDA. So my response to you came from another BD fan.

I will be more cautious in the future regarding with whom I align myself, so as not to confuse you further.

And again, as I said earlier, for the record, I am no Blu-ray insider, not even close.


P.S. Is this the "BD" club which you were referring?

http://www.ballroomdancers.com/Directory/Other/view_details.asp?ID=268

What kind of "snakeoil" could these people be interested in peddling?

Very interesting. In context, the Funai is mentioned in the sub-$500 (unless that was unintentional), so I'm scratching off Denon, unless they come out with several models one of which would include the Reon and price at ~$2k.

Would Funai make the Daewoo? I'm thinking more likely Mitsu.

That's a nice doorstep. With that special light around it you are guaranteed not to trip over it.
:D

I remember that.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6859755&&#post6859755

That was from January of last year, in your "Is HD DVD essentially dead in the water at this point?" poll you posted in October 05.

I don't know, I'll wait and see. Not that I doubt anyone will come out with anymore BD players. But in total, I'm a bit skeptical.

Now let's see. I said in January '06 that I heard that there would be several BD recorders released before the end of 2006, right?

http://electronicsshowplace.com/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=47306

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=19239

http://oto-online.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=49

Is this enough of a list?? :p

Uhmm...And your point was supposed to be.... :confused: ;)

___________________________________________________
Palladin doesn't play here anymore

Chance favors the prepared mind

Uhmm...And your point was supposed to be.... :confused: ;)

___________________________________________________
Palladin doesn't play here anymore

Chance favors the prepared mind

Hmmmm..... nothing I guess...


Well played good sir, well played.

Originally Posted by rdjam
My comments - that's all very well and nice, but is just as much FUD as anything else, unless we know it's true...

Just thought I'd point out the obvious. FUD? Fear, uncertainty and doubt? That more CE's are possibly introducing Blu-ray players? I would rather call it possibly good news. We'll know soon enough. What' s the opposite of FUD?

Whats FUD when it is actually a good news item or unsubstantiated rumour designed to create hope instead of fear?


How about the term GUD?

for Great Unconfirmed Disclosure?

or short for Good FUD?


or HUD?

for Hopeful Unconfirmed Disclosure?

or Hopeful FUD



or PUD

for Positive Unconfirmed Disclosure

or Positive FUD



or.... ( I'll stop now :o )





as in a hopeful rumour or unconfirmed statement that counteracts FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt)

What' s the opposite of FUD?

Whats FUD when it is actually a good news item or unsubstantiated rumour designed to create hope instead of fear?

How about the term GUD?

for Great Unconfirmed Disclosure?

or short for Good FUD?

or HUD?

for Hopeful Unconfirmed Disclosure?

or Hopeful FUD

or PUD

for Positive Unconfirmed Disclosure

or Positive FUD

or.... ( I'll stop now :o )

as in a hopeful rumour or unconfirmed statement that counteracts FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt)

Very good question Kosty, as these are the two basic tools of hand to hand sales combat. Fear and Hope. If we do the literal reverse it is:

Fear Uncertainty Doubt

Hope Certainty Belief

But HCB doesn't roll off the tongue like FUD. ;)

Personally I like HUB - Hope Uncertainty Belief

Uncertainty is truly present in both scenarios, but has a negative connotation in one and a positive in the other.

Hope Certainty Belief

nope does not work that way. If something is certain then it is a fact

Maybe we can reverse engineer the words for the acronyms like they do for military campaigns or the titles of new federal laws.

:) HCB? Agree with anthony, a bit too positive. How about HOB? Hope, Optimism and Belief? But yeah, HUB works too.

BTW, wiki also has this one: Fud, a Scottish colloquialism for vagina :o Thus, FUD should be used with care...

Since I'm a Catholic, I'm going to try a little experiment. Wednesday is Ash Wednesday which is the beginning of Lent. Though not required it's a Catholic tradition to give up some pleasure or vice for the forty-day duration of Lent.

One of the very tiny sacrifices I've decided to give up is HD. I thought it would be interesting to see just how many of the predictions, rumors, and expectations of this format war biz come to pass in six weeks, or if things remain somewhat unaltered.

Will Universal go neutral?
Will HD DVD drop another 20% in player price?
What will new sales figures reveal?
Will new Hybrids be announced?

I have less than twenty hours left to until I go AWOL.

:) HCB? Agree with anthony, a bit too positive. How about HOB? Hope, Optimism and Belief? But yeah, HUB works too. ......I like it.

I like HOB just for the way it looks.

Hope Optimism and Belief pretty much nail it too.

I give a second vote for HOB as being the over zealeous optimistic unsubstantiated lifting up with sugar instead of nasty spite cousin of FUD.

Any others?

Any others?
How about RCF?

Reassurance, Confirmation, and Facts.

How about RCF?

Reassurance, Confirmation, and Facts.

See my sig.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9821289&&#post9821289

From the article:

3X DVD-ROM is a variant of DVD-ROM, allowing for HD video & UDF 2.5 on the DVD format. 3X DVD-ROM discs are played back in HD DVD players. Several manufacturers are looking to 3X DVD-ROM as a low cost entry into the HD video market. I would also expect that the installed base of existing XBox 360s could be software upgraded to accomodate 3x DVD-ROM...

^ I posted this as a seperate thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=808341

See my sig.
Should that be Truth, Relevance, Information, Clarity, Kindness & Ycleped? :) (Having trouble with the Y, but it could mean quoting sources ) :)