Format Battle General Discussion Thread: Discuss it here! [Text View] - Page 23

thomopolis

02-21-07, 01:38 AM

Tell you a secret. Slight annoyance in a ad is not a bad thing, especially a radio commmercial which you will soon forget any details of anyway. But your brain did get the couple of points the ad was designed to impart.
..........................................................

That ad started associations of there is now HD DVD, that makes DVD better, and goes along with those big new good HDTVs.

OK, I realize my post on the HD-DVD ad and the BluRay discussion with John Lassiter was long winded, so let me be more succinct here.

Both HD-DVD and BluRay are getting their word out; whether through annoying ad on the radio, discussions on radio shows, all of BluRay's ads in Scientific American, nytimes.com, and on and on.

People are going to know what they are. Knowing what something is is not enough. Low cost is good, but it is also not enough. A format can only take off if there are movies people want to buy. When Cars and Pirates come out it will be the greatest differentiator between the formats since Kong.

What is HD-DVD (ie Universal) going to do to counter? Will people buy cheap chinese players for Christmas if they can't get Spider Man 3?

And no, that wasn't very succinct either.

thom

zero_zep

02-21-07, 03:41 AM

Rio

02-21-07, 04:49 AM

I was just looking at the latest reviews and came across this. What the heck happened?It's a BD basher trap.:) There was one thread about that review started by a certain BD basher, and that thread got deleted because of trolls. Another thread is alive in BD software section.

Frank Derks

02-21-07, 07:38 AM

I don't understand why people think that when certain "Blockbusters" come out....that everyone is gonna want to buy a 500 ps3 to see it in hd? Can someone explain that to me? That is not gonna make people go out and buy hd-tvs or buy 500 dollar players....of crouse people who already are into it will buy it but how can you see sm3 or cars or potc as a reason to plunk out 500 IF you already have a hd-tv? whos gonna care when you can already buy it on dvd? thats whats keeping me from blu-ray.....one: the price....two: most if not all the movies on blu-ray that I want I already have....which I know of crouse is just me but anyways......a few movies IS NOT enough to warrent a 500 video game system. And why do people keep thinking that by some magic blu-ray will be super inexpensive buy the end of the year? The only G2 price of a blu-ray player I have heard of is 600.....how is that cheap?

Well It's a format war and one of the BR weapons is 'more exclusive content' supposed to have a major impact.
That would be true if a SD DVD wasn't available as an alternative.

A sales person worth his salt selling a HDTV to a consumer stands a very good chance selling the cheaper HD player along with it. Most people go for the cheaper alternative after just spending $$$$ on a HD flatscreen.

SamwisetheBrave

02-21-07, 10:10 AM

I'm throwing in the towel, on the basis of mental health and sanity. :o

I joined on June 16, 2006, mostly to find out about projection televisions. The AVSForum was a godsend and I ended up buying first a 56" Sammy for upstairs, then a 61" Sammy for the home theater room.

I was first a BDA supporter: it all sounded wonderful...on paper. Then I switched to HD DVD, then back. Then HD DVD came out, and then BD.

In September I purchased an A1. Never any problems and I upgraded to 2.0. The upconverting is fabulous and I use the load time to adjust lights and cushions and settle in; it isn't an issue with me.

I had fun reading three basic Threads: This one, HD players, and HD software.

Then the fanboys and the "get-a-life" folks took over everything. I really don't understand how some people can have posted thousands of responses in just a year or two.... The arguments are over the most minor things. Each piece of news is evaluated for whether it is good or bad for one's "side." People are insulted and called morons for having opposite views. Threads are high-jacked right and left.

Thirty years ago, when I briefly taught writing in an English Department, I asked a colleague why English Department meetings were so vitreolic and nasty and ended up with people very cleverly calling each other a**holes. His response: because the stakes are so low... Yes, I said that correctly: because the stakes are so low.

I'm not one of those who says because people are starving or dying in wars, that people who aren't can't have fun. But really: the AVSforms dealing with the "war" are incredibly childish and petty when they should be joyful and happy that we live in a time when great movies look even better in HD.

Enough. I'll come back once in a while to see what Amir has to say or check out the software releases and reviews, but spending much more time here is a huge waste.

I've posted just over two posts a day. Sorry, but there won't be many more.
I'm going to watch HD DVD movies, wonderfully upconverted movies, and maybe, just maybe, DirecTV WILL be adding 150 new HD channels. I have HBO, Showtime, HDNET MOVIES, and UNIVERSAL HD, and maybe soon I'll have STARZ and ENCORE (and please don't jump in say they aren't "real" HD, please). Yes, they are not HD DVD/Blu-Ray quality, but they sure as heck are better than SD.

A note: Watched the original STAR WARS last night on my HD Tivo; looked awesome and it will do until the "real thing" comes along.

So, fight on, knock yourselves out over who can hear a difference between virtually-identical soundtracks, and so forth. Enjoy.

For all the good times and good reads and good advice I've received--many, many thanks! I'll miss all that.

Take care...and remember: In a 100 years, we'll all share a good laugh about the format war! ;)

Ken

Grubert

02-21-07, 10:28 AM

People are insulted and called morons for having opposite views.

Or even told to "go back to blue fantasyland." If you catch my drift... ;)

WayneL

02-21-07, 10:38 AM

I'm throwing in the towel, on the basis of mental health and sanity. :o Ken
Great post. If you feel the need to work out some agression, frustration or hostility come on back. No chance of physical or financial harm here for acting out. :p

SamwisetheBrave

02-21-07, 10:48 AM

Never said I was an innocent or never piled on--but I tried to do it in HD DVD threads, and called out trollers and flame-war starters, or those trying to push an agenda without many "facts." I don't believe I ever posted in a BD site; that's their sandbox.

I SAID I own HD DVD, and I'd like it to win. It very well may. On the other hand, it may not. I'll be sad, but not crushed and forlorn. Two or three years after a football team wins the national championship, most people (except for that team's fans) simply cannot remember who won that year. This battle is of the same magnitude of importance.

One format may win, both may win (stay around), or both may stay niche products for years while the average consumer sticks with "good enough" DVD.
In any event, it won't affect my life much--nor, I suspect, yours unless you work for Sony, Toshiba, etc.

SamwisetheBrave

02-21-07, 10:51 AM

Great post. If you feel the need to work out some agression, frustration or hostility come on back. No chance of physical or financial harm here for acting out. :p
Thanks, WayneL. You're one of the good guys and there are very, very many like you. However, there are also just too many newbies who want to start fist fights, for my tastes. :(

wittangamo

02-21-07, 10:56 AM

Sorry to see a lucid poster go. :(

Ezra

02-21-07, 11:29 AM

skogan

02-21-07, 11:33 AM

FYI, "University politics are vicious precisely because the stakes are so small." is a quote from Henry Kissinger.

SamwisetheBrave

02-21-07, 12:06 PM

FYI, "University politics are vicious precisely because the stakes are so small." is a quote from Henry Kissinger.
:D Thanks!

He was passing it off as his own, I presume--or he may have quoted Kissinger: I can't remember at this late date.

UxiSXRD

02-21-07, 01:51 PM

Quitting forums because of partisanship in a corporate format war in which one has no personal stake seems a bit... extreme. Getting upset enough to quit for that reason is an entirely different enchilada.

The cliquishness of fans for their format always amazes me. I do tend to debate more in favor of BD, but that's more due to the posting of certain HDDVD posters than any belief that it is an overall superior format with greater potential (though I do believe Blu-ray is :D ). My wallet votes near even, though increasingly BD. Gonna be at least 17 more BD through May while I only have 5 left on my HDDVD list. That said, if either format up and died, I wouldn't shed one bloody tear.

kjack

02-21-07, 03:22 PM

I can see the point of quitting being here. I have curtailed my participation considerably as a result of all the crap here. Personally, I feel the mods should limit the number of posts per day that a member can do. Some people are now just using this forum to do whatever they can to protect their initial investment.

yampan

02-21-07, 03:28 PM

From a trusted little birdy:
- The Onkyo HD DVD player will be based on a Toshiba deck. So, basically it will be a rebadge.
Gary

What's the advantage of Onkyo marketing a rebadged Toshiba deck? If it's not substantially cheaper ( and that's not Onkyo position in the marketplace), and it's not substantially different or has better features ( because it's a rebadge), then why would Toshiba authorize it or Onkyo want to do it?

b.greenway

02-21-07, 03:30 PM

Some people are now just using this forum to do whatever they can to protect their initial investment.
Which I find hilarious as we're (AVS) a tiny slice of the more important mass consumer pie. 10, 100, 100k posts a day here won't amount to a hill of beans in the big picture, it does however make for one hell of an annoyance.

b.greenway

02-21-07, 03:33 PM

UxiSXRD

02-21-07, 03:58 PM

By itself, rebadging isn't entirely bad. Onkyo could specify more expensive materials and tighter tolerances, if not more features, for example...

But for HD DVD, they desparately need another CE. Rebadging doesn't help with that.

yampan

02-21-07, 03:58 PM

I remember reading that the Onkyo would NOT be a re-badge, but damned if I can remember when or what thread.

The Onkyo had better not be a rebadge, because that would accomplish nothing. RCA did a rebadge of the A-1 and it was a big ho hum. In fact there are plenty of A-2s sitting on the BB shelves, and Amazon has sold a few hundred in about a month, but they still have several hundred left. I'm not sure more and different hardware is going to do much until the media imbalance is resolved, and I don't just mean the number of releases from both sides. The BBs near me used to have a 50/50 shelf split for HD vs. BD. Now they have 2/1 BD over HD. For the average buyer walking into the store that's got to instill some FUD when considering HD.

dialog_gvf

02-21-07, 04:08 PM

What's the advantage of Onkyo marketing a rebadged Toshiba deck? If it's not substantially cheaper ( and that's not Onkyo position in the marketplace), and it's not substantially different or has better features ( because it's a rebadge), then why would Toshiba authorize it or Onkyo want to do it?

Without knowing which deck it would be based on, it's hard to say. It could be a rebadge of a future XA3. Can you say that would a bad move, or a poor choice? It would be odd if people are thinking a rebadged A2.

I would actually expect it to improve the audio section somewhat, being that is Onkyo's forte. Onkyo doesn't strike me as a company that could accomplish something so far outside its general area of expertise, easily.

These HD decks aren't trivial things. And they are damn expensive things to go proprietary on. Onkyo's smart choices are the MS/Broadcom reference design, or something from Toshiba.

Gary

skogan

02-21-07, 04:15 PM

Some people are now just using this forum to do whatever they can to protect their initial investment.

And some peopler are using it to try to create the impression that the format war is over, and, based on a month or two PS3 sales, BD has this thing wrapped up.

skogan

02-21-07, 04:17 PM

The Onkyo rumor is still just second or third hand hearsay at this point, correct?

Sketcha

02-21-07, 04:41 PM

10, 100, 100k posts a day here won't amount to a hill of beans in the big picture
Yeah, "but this is our hill...

and these are OUR BEANS!"

FD
PS

Sketcha

02-21-07, 04:48 PM

Take care...and remember: In a 100 years, we'll all share a good laugh about the format war! ;)

Ken

FWIW, I'm getting close to burn-out as well, though probably not close enough for some. ;)

Maybe we'll see ya' 'round before too long, eh?

Best wishes.

kjack

02-21-07, 05:02 PM

And some peopler are using it to try to create the impression that the format war is over, and, based on a month or two PS3 sales, BD has this thing wrapped up.And some people think a million or so HD DVD players this year will easily win it for them. IMHO, the battle is going to be much more ruthless and longer than that.

kjack

02-21-07, 05:04 PM

Yeah, "but this is our hill...and these are OUR BEANS!"Some of us are knowledgable enough to be able tell the difference between different coffee beans and how they were roasted... :)

skogan

02-21-07, 05:10 PM

And some people think a million or so HD DVD players this year will easily win it for them.

Those people are increasingly fewer...

IMHO, the battle is going to be much more ruthless and longer than that.

Interesting.

This should probably go in the insiders question thread, but I wonder if you guys are working on a dual format solution? I understand if you can't talk about future products, but it would be interesting to know. Thanks.

nilsp

02-21-07, 05:11 PM

And some peopler are using it to try to create the impression that the format war is over, and, based on a month or two PS3 sales, BD has this thing wrapped up.

Wrapped up is a stretch, but certainly one can see a trend starting to emerge, no? Some might hold on to the hope that every HD DVD add-on will sell dozens of titles, while no PS3's are used for HD movie playback. That once more games start coming out for the PS3, people won't have money to buy movies. That once Disney announces support for HD DVD, people will flock to it. That once the chinese $299 HD DVD decks hit the street, then the war is over. That once people realize VC-1 rulez over MPEG2, that 30GB is better than 50GB, that interactive menus are better than more movies, then it is a done deal. But to me that would be HOP, or was it HOB.

I say the writing is on the wall. There are even signs Universal are seeing the same writing. Of course, it could also be me spreading FUD. Or mis-reading the writing. Or looking at the wrong wall.

nilsp

02-21-07, 05:14 PM

The Onkyo rumor is still just second or third hand hearsay at this point, correct?
I thought Amir confirmed it? I guess not. Then I would put it in the same category as Denon coming out with a Blu-ray player, for now.

Palladin

02-21-07, 05:20 PM

I can see the point of quitting being here. I have curtailed my participation considerably as a result of all the crap here.
Yeah, I've been there and done that.

I really enjoyed actively participating in numerous discussions of the next gen disks for quite some time, even before starting the big thread. Were there disagreements on certain subjects? Of course there were. But there was also an underlying sense that most of us were pursuing the same goal in the long run.

Unfortunately, during the past year things have just gotten incredibly petty and stupid, and I get the sense that a number of ‘ringers’ i.e. paid consultants in stealth mode have entered into our midst, probably as a result of this forum’s high-profile after it was unfortunately turned into a "weapon in the format war", to quote an old thread. What was once the fun of a hobbyists’ pursuit here, instead degenerated into big business marketing, and the spirit of this forum has never really recovered from that change.

That is why during the past year plus, other than a handful of occasions when I was either looking for some specific item of info that was unavailable through googled articles, or was simply very bored, I’ve tended to avoid this place generally, and certainly have seen little reason to volunteer any information which has come up on my radar.

There was once a real sense of pride and camraderie associated with being a part of this forum that’s rarely seen here anymore, and I for one, mourn the fact that it somehow got lost in the shuffle. I don’t know if this could ever be considered a paradise, but it sure as hell has been paved into a parking lot.

_____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Sketcha

02-21-07, 05:57 PM

Some of us are knowledgable enough to be able tell the difference between different coffee beans and how they were roasted... :)
Well as an insider, I'm sure you are. And for that, you're on my buddy list. :)

I was just quoting an 80s movie line in response to b.greenway. I'm pretty dissapointed that you didn't pick up on it. I'm probably just showing my age. :(

BTW, I left a hint of the character name initials and the initials of his affiliation.

kjack

02-21-07, 06:04 PM

Well as an insider, I'm sure you are. And for that, you're on my buddy list. :) I was serious about the coffee. Anything else, take with a grain of salt. :)

I was just quoting an 80s movie line in response to b.greenway. I'm pretty dissapointed that you didn't pick up on it.Sorry, just got back from two weeks in Asia and my brain is completely fried.

Sketcha

02-21-07, 06:10 PM

Sorry, just got back from two weeks in Asia and my brain is completely fried.
With your company I'm guessing you're over there a fair amount.

I'll forgive you for the movie reference, if you're under 30. ;)

martylane

02-21-07, 10:07 PM

There was once a real sense of pride and camraderie associated with being a part of this forum that’s rarely seen here anymore, and I for one, mourn the fact that it somehow got lost in the shuffle. I don’t know if this could ever be considered a paradise, but it sure as hell has been paved into a parking lot.

_____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Very sad, and very true sorry to say. :(

AnthonyP

02-21-07, 11:07 PM

Those people are increasingly fewer...

but unfortunetly more vocal.

AnthonyP

02-21-07, 11:09 PM

Kosty

02-21-07, 11:55 PM

Maybe . I'm relatively new and naive here posting in this side of the forum since last April or so, but I learn a lot from the active posters. I still see a lot of "real sense of pride and camaraderie" along with all the stupidity.

I posted some. but mostly lurked in the front projector AVR and DIY threads. But this area got my interest up and it matched not only my personal interest but things I had information on. This is IMHO the best place on the planet to get information about it.

I also think the HDTV Software Media Discussion Forum has evolved to be the neutral ground and has a lot less rah rah that the Blu-ray or HD DVD hardware and software discussion forums.

The news thread shifting to more pure news with this thread shifting to discussion and with the Insider thread being limited to Q & A has really increased the utility of this place.

Most of the high posting regulars here add useful information, guys like Grubert search the planet for news and the mods hold it all together and keep it relatively civil, out of there love for the hobby. The real rah rah guys even add to the discussion or they can be ignored.

What's wrong with a passionate dialog, as long as it has some rules?

I think the mods here have managed a remarkable achievment here, in keeping the discussion flowing. I see the advantage of a bit of a scoratic dialog as the truth tends to emerge over time. There is a strength to an bit of a adversarial system of discussion. I see more useful discussion of these issues here than anywhere else and more detail from knowledgable people discussing levels that go far beyond the press releases or uniformed articles in the mainstream and even trade press.

If you think the discussion is out of control here, you haven't even tried to compare this place with most of the other forums out there.

The mods here do a great job of allowing discussion, Most other places degenerate pretty quickly into mindless insults.

I think you guys are being to hard on yourselves

2Channel

02-22-07, 12:39 AM

snip...

What's wrong with a passionate dialog, as long as it has some rules?

I think the mods here have managed a remarkable achievment here, in keeping the discussion flowing. I see the advantage of a bit of a scoratic dialog as the truth tends to emerge over time. There is a strength to an bit of a adversarial system of discussion. I see more useful discussion of these issues here than anywhere else and more detail from knowledgable people discussing levels that go far beyond the press releases or uniformed articles in the mainstream and even trade press.

If you think the discussion is out of control here, you haven't even tried to compare this place with most of the other forums out there.

The mods here do a great job of allowing discussion, Most other places degenerate pretty quickly into mindless insults.

I think you guys are being to hard on yourselves

Well said Kosty. Last year the News thread had become a battleground and was being shut down on a pretty regular basis.

The dedicated Format Battle thread provided a much needed outlet for this debate. If you're not interested in the debate, it's easy to ignore this thread. If you want to debate the formats, this is the place to take that debate.

I like to debate the formats here. I don't take that debate into other threads I participate in. There are a lot of fantastic threads on AVS that make no mention of the format war. On the other hand any thread that covers Blu-Ray or HD-DVD related items has the potential to see flare ups related to this battle. I like to encourage those folks to take that debate here where it belongs.

chad_cincy

02-22-07, 01:07 AM

I remember reading that the Onkyo would NOT be a re-badge, but damned if I can remember when or what thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9458485&highlight=onkyo#post9458485

Kosty

02-22-07, 01:09 AM

If you are not prepared to have your logic and reasoning challenged here, you are in for a surprise.

Don't be shocked if you are questioned about your assertions or logic.

Dahlsim

02-22-07, 01:22 AM

Unfortunately, during the past year things have just gotten incredibly petty and stupid, and I get the sense that a number of ‘ringers’ i.e. paid consultants in stealth mode have entered into our midst, probably as a result of this forum’s high-profile after it was unfortunately turned into a "weapon in the format war", to quote an old thread.

What was once the fun of a hobbyists’ pursuit here, instead degenerated into big business marketing, and the spirit of this forum has never really recovered from that change.

It does seem that over time less posts are of the open minded debate & discussion type.

Certain posters seem to drop in only to drop a format cheer or format jeer with little effort at making any real point.

It's very similar to game console forums. Not too suprising when you consider how similar this format war is to game console wars...

nilsp

02-22-07, 04:21 AM

Indeed. Takes me right back to Jaguar/3DO etc. discussions years ago. Theme has changed, tone has not. I wonder if those who were the most vocal back then, are the same that are most vocal now? Surely this forum isn't filled with 13-year olds? Common sense and reason seems scarce these days.

That said, there still are some nuggets of fun once in a while, but it is becoming harder and harder to "stick with it" to get to those. Thank goodness for the insider and news thread.

Kosty

02-22-07, 04:30 AM

Thank goodness for the insider and news thread. Glad the mods are keeping them clean.

Grubert

02-22-07, 06:34 AM

SF Video Joins Elite Group of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray Mastering & HD-DVD Replication Providers (http://prweb.com/releases/2007/2/prweb506706.htm)

SF Video to Become First Non-Entertainment Based Company to Offer These Services

Anyone interested in getting a free price quote on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray Mastering replication services should call the following toll-free number: 1-800-545-5865 to receive an immediate response.

cough cough :)

Kosty

02-22-07, 08:55 AM

From the News thread

Gizmodo: Frankenfight: Blu-ray vs. HD DVD, Formats Not Equal

For this week's topic, we dug through the entire archive from the DVD critics at High-Def Digest (about 300 total reviews), averaging every rating they've given yet to HD DVD and Blu-Ray titles.

http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/02/BH1.jpgSignificant review averages tell us that Blu-ray titles were slightly, but definitely superior in audio playback. HD DVD titles had far superior standard def features and moderately superior hi def features.Translation: the studios are using crappier audio compression on HD DVD.Translation: Sony didn't offer developers enough software support for their programming.And of course, the two issues could be feeding off one another while playing to each format's strengths. Blu-ray may easily accommodate uncompressed audio with its larger disc capacity, compensating for its lack of special features. Meanwhile, HD DVD may exploit special features at the expense of audio (where most people won't even notice). I would not describe Dolby Digital Plus as "crappier" audio, as it exceeds most people DVD experiences, but otherwise I thought the article was alright.

I dare say though that most people notice the extra's more than the audio difference.

Its curious though that Blu-ray 50BG > 30GB advantage did not translate to any thing other than the PCM difference.

CTENUS

02-22-07, 09:10 AM

...my deciding factor is...

What would Lucas do.

(if somebody has been to the ranch and has seen him spanking it to jar-jar in Blu or HD - let me Know please!)

RobertR1

02-22-07, 09:58 AM

CTENUS

02-22-07, 11:52 AM

had anybody actually done any benchmarks? I know in the PC world - places like Tom's Hardware does benchmarking... Who doesn't in the PC world know the ATI vs. NVIDIA... generally there seems to be a split... granted it's just preformance issues...

I hear that HDDVD doesnt' support 1080p... is that true?
I know my TV will not support that... any benchmarks will be cool other than the 30gb vs 50gb thing...

Bottom line is this... I want some help in deciding which console system to buy... I'm leaning towards XBOX360 with the HD DVD add on... at this point... I'll eventually get the PS3 with the BLU...

I don't think this will ever turn into a VHS vs BETA issue

skogan

02-22-07, 12:06 PM

Bottom line is this... I want some help in deciding which console system to buy... I'm leaning towards XBOX360 with the HD DVD add on... at this point... I'll eventually get the PS3 with the BLU...

I don't think this will ever turn into a VHS vs BETA issue

Note that you will get lots of different opinions on this, but here is mine:

It won't matter that much which format you get now, because your next player will probably play both formats. So whatever you get is fine, it will be supported in the future, don't worry about it. Now is a good time to buy in, in my opinion.

The PS3 is a good choice if you want to go Blu-ray. If you already have a 360, the add-on is a good choice. If not, one of the Toshiba models is good. Getting an add on and PS3 is also a good choice, since, you get about 60% more content by buying both format as opposed to just one.

Blu-ray is a little safer buy right now, and they will have a content lead in the future, (world-wide HD DVD has a small lead right now in content, USA-wide BD currently has a small lead in content.) The PS3 is probably the safest buy right now if you don't mind (or like) having a game machine play your disc. It's only about $100 more than an HD DVD player, and you will probably have a little more content available over the next year.

Edit: In terms of qualtiy, both formats are roughly equal.

wco81

02-22-07, 12:45 PM

Blu-Ray will have more than 60% content coverage.

Or is Universal suddenly 40% of the market?

skogan

02-22-07, 12:56 PM

Blu-Ray will have more than 60% content coverage.

Or is Universal suddenly 40% of the market?

There is a thread dealing with percentage of content that is unique. If you go look at it, you will see that, as of about 2 weeks ago, a person who owned a BD player would gain access to about 60% more content by buying an HD DVD player.... or was it 40%.. I'll see if I can find it.

Kosty

02-22-07, 01:04 PM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=715977

In the midst of this thread is all sorts of studio and format stats.

CTENUS

02-22-07, 01:32 PM

skogan

02-22-07, 01:50 PM

Palladin

02-22-07, 03:53 PM

This forum is now a haven for shills to promote their employer's contractor (both sides). It'd be very nice if the mods can do some iptraces and a little bit of detective work. I wouldn't be too shocked to see things linked back to viral marketing/online community management firms. .
I think the Rick Marquardt debacle (perhaps fiasco would be more accurate) here from a couple of years back was sufficient to discourage any further really overt attempts generally, but that doesn't make the the slightly subtler attempts any less insidious.

As to the mods, I think Ken H and Mark R have done a remarkable (and primarily, thankless) job when faced with the herculean task of keeping some semblance of order at this forum. Unfortunately, the lowest common denominator seems to have become disproportionately pervasive. I guess this is the price to be paid for AVS' garnering such a high-profile in this mess.

They probably won't release Star Wars until there are a lot of players on the market, so that it will sell a bundle.
I'm not so sure that Lucas' holy grail mentality about this work isn't an even greater factor in determining his intent to release.

Fortunately, I recently DVR'd the only 2 I really care about off of HBO-HD (TESB and SW, in that order), both of which looked remarkably well. So I feel no particular pressure on that score.

__________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Kosty

02-22-07, 04:03 PM

I can't find StarWars at BestBuy for Blu... is that legit Kosty?
anybody wanna verify StarWars (any EP's)... on either BLU or HD-DVD....

Thanks Skogan for the feedback...

***after looking around I've found that that's alittle poopie - StarWars hasn't been released nor have I seen any intention to release on HD-DVD or Blu.... so is that list really accurate?

I think 20th Century Fox will only release on Blu... but can't seem to get anything factual - all in the rumormill. Read thru the thread. Thats more than just announced releases. Its a attempt by Bferr1 and me to show general studio support and to make a best case on which format is most likely to support a title. Star Wars is a special case for many reasons including Lucas's reserved rights. the last post in that thread actually address that.

In that thread is a color colding by studio of every DVD movies ever released and every movie that did more than 1 million gross.

Just keep scrolling.

Eventually we will clean it up a bit and update it. Its a labor of love, but a pain in the butt to keep currrent.

Sorry to get your hopes up for star wars.

Kosty

02-22-07, 04:07 PM

As to the mods, I think Ken H and Mark R have done a remarkable (and primarily, thankless) job when faced with the herculean task of keeping some semblance of order at this forum. Unfortunately, the lowest common denominator seems to have become disproportionately pervasive. I guess this is the price to be paid for AVS' garnering such a high-profile in this mess. They are my heros. Unbelievable great work. the community is incredibly fortunate to have them.

cctvtech

02-22-07, 04:18 PM

Kosty

02-22-07, 04:25 PM

Yes

LG is working on a followup 2nd generation hybrid model now.

Samsung is rumored to be doing the same.

WayneL

02-22-07, 04:57 PM

If you are not prepared to have your logic and reasoning challenged here, you are in for a surprise.

Don't be shocked if you are questioned about your assertions or logic.
Nor parentage, income, IQ, employment, drug history, felonies and a number of other things, but you can report these and the mods can ban the poster :)

2Channel

02-22-07, 06:59 PM

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable here can explain the following:

LG (and perhaps others) are coming out with dual-format players. I've also read somewhere that HD DVD requires a different optics unit than Blu-Ray. And I've also read that to play CD's and standard DVD's a (third?, fourth?) different optics assembly is required.

My question is - is it even possible to build a single player that will play all current forms of video and audio discs?

Different optics have different capabilities. In the case of the LG, my understanding is that it covers all formats except for CD with a single optic.

http://us.lge.com/download/product/file/1000002028/BH100.pdf

The Pioneer and Sony standalone players cover BD and DVD, but not CD. Then there's the PS3 which covers CD/SACD/DVD and BD.

On the HD-DVD side, I believe all of the devices support CD and DVD along with HD-DVD.

http://www.geardigest.com/2007/02/21/hd-dvd-buyers-guide/

We'll see if someone can deliver a universal player this year that includes CD along with all of the other formats.

Note: To the best of my knowledge, all of these devices use a single optic. If I've made any mistakes, please correct me.

Grubert

02-23-07, 04:24 PM

Microsoft ordered to pay Alcatel-Lucent 1.5 bln for infringement (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070223/bs_afp/usfranceitpatent_070223003730)

The remaining alleged patent violations headed for trial concern technology for digital video, speech coding, user interface, and Xbox 360 video game consoles, according to Microsoft.

Kosty

02-23-07, 05:14 PM

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6418854.html

HD DVD plugs into Circuit City

Support from retailer, Microsoft could help format against Blu-ray

Circuit City officials declined to discuss their merchandising strategy for HD DVD software now that the chain is also carrying players, but it’s believed the titles, which were previously mixed in with standard DVDs, are getting prominence on par with BD releasesSeparately, in good news for both formats, Borders started offering both HD DVD and BD titles in about 30 to 50 of its stores around the beginning of the year, according to studio sources. Borders declined comment. We’ve already done over 200 demos at Circuit City, which we started at the end of January. It was always our intention to expand our retail distribution.”Major new retail channels should help disc sales if there are enough players in the field to use them with.

That's Toshiba finally starting to spend POS money.

Sally reported that through Feb. 13, sales of Toshiba’s second HD-A2 ($499) and HD-XA2 ($999), which went on sale in late December, have eclipsed the lifetime sales of the company’s first-generation players. So within 1 1/2 to 2 months, Toshiba sold as many HD DVD players as they had in the previous 8 months.

That's at least 4 times the sales rate. But lifetime sales of HD DVD and BD titles are running fairly even—at about 700,000 discs sold for each format through Feb. 10, according to one studio. Thats a new number. 1,400,000 for total sales through Feb 10th.

Retailers remain upbeat about HD DVD, and some say they are anticipating a $100 price cut from Toshiba on its second-generation players. That would bring the manufacturer’s basic model down to as low as $399.

“You’ll see the lower pricing in 30 to 60 days,” said one retail source. “For Toshiba to hit the sell-through numbers that it wants, I expect to see a base level of $299 this fall.” Gee , maybe those new retail outlets may have some more players to sell discs to if the MSRP drops by $100.

If street prices are $349 now for a HD A2??? What will they be this fall?

“Let’s say the software sales are about even, and you’ve got five times as much hardware on the Blu-ray side as you have on the HD DVD side,” said one executive. “That means your attach rates for HD DVD are higher than your attach rates for Blu-ray,” he said, pointing to 1 million PlayStation 3 and stand-alone BD devices combined in homes, versus about 200,000 HD DVD players that have sold, including stand-alones and Xbox 360 add-on drives Attach rates anyone?

But most retailers believe that current sales levels of HD DVD and BD are far too small to indicate real strength in either format. :D Too soon to call the war over?

$399 HD A2 MSRP within 60 days. $299 HD DVD MSRP players by this fall. Any guess on street prices?

webphilosopher

02-23-07, 05:37 PM

Kosty,

As usual, you are on top of this.

Word to Blu-boys: NEVER underestimate Microsoft as a player in all of this.

And NEVER underestimate the importance of price/performance.

Toshiba is going to deliver on what is most important for consumers: $$$.

Thanks, Kosty.

Kosty

02-23-07, 05:43 PM

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6419351.html

From the editor at large at Video Business

WITH ALL DUE respect to the folks at Sony and other Blu-ray Disc backers, it seems a bit early to be declaring victory in the high-def format war.But the number of titles released on Blu-ray last month outstripped titles released on HD DVD by better than 2-to-1, so the greater total software sales—by itself—doesn’t tell us much about BD’s relative popularity.

Moreover, BD software sales in January also likely benefited from the 600,000-700,000 PlayStation 3 consoles sold in the U.S. in December, each of which came packaged with a $15 coupon for a BD movie.

We won’t know whether that PS3-propelled spike in sales will be sustained until we have a few months-worth of data. Too early to declare the end of the war based on 1st quarter sales.

Blu-ray is trying to bluff a victory here, based on small sales numbers and unique circumstances that will never be repeated.

Insofar as PS3 is considered critical to the success of BD, in fact, it’s hard to see why anyone in the BD camp is feeling optimistic.

I don’t see how the rollout of PS3 to date can fairly be called anything but a disaster for Sony, and the signs are getting worse.

THE REAL NUMBERS story in January was not the strength of BD but weakness of PS3.For PS3 to be a decisive factor in the high-def format war, it first has to succeed in the game-console wars, and right now, it is not.If the PS3 is the lowest priced Blu-ray option, and the one selling the most Blu-ray discs, PS3 problems are Blu-ray problems.SONY’S PS3 PROBLEMS, of course, do nothing to help HD DVD land more studios. The format’s supporters, in fact, seem to be turning to new gimmicks to try to lure smaller producers into releasing product on HD DVD.Whether that will be enough to rescue HD DVD from oblivion remains to be seen. HD DVD obviously needs more releases from both larger studios and from smaller content providers.

Sketcha

02-23-07, 05:58 PM

Attach rates anyone?
Scrambling anyone?

:D Too soon to call the war over?
Nope. War's over. :p

I don't really mean that, of course, but I do feel the tide has turned.

You are obviously spending your precious time scrambling to debunk the "myth" that Blu-ray has taken the lead. I might do the same if the situation were reversed.

I'm going to leave that task to you and probably won't be responding very much as you're a friend and I don't want you to feel I am dancing on your grave. Time will certainly tell.

Some people find this battle tedious and boring, but I think, and I know you do as well, that it is very interesting watching all of the cards played. I think both have a few left and this game will continue to draw my interest. No matter how it turns out, I believe there are plenty of us that will remember it as a fascinating time in HT history. :)

Kosty

02-23-07, 06:03 PM

I believe there are plenty of us that will remember it as a fascinating time in HT history. That's my interest.

I think this is history in the making and its fascinating to me as an HD fanactic, home theater owner and movie lover.

plazman

02-23-07, 06:11 PM

Sketcha, beware the ides of March ;)

Kosty

02-23-07, 06:14 PM

plazman

Feeling better now? :)

Sketcha

02-23-07, 06:18 PM

Sketcha, beware the ides of March ;)
You mean this March?...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=766588

I don't see a lot of pending doom there, Plaz, but... thanks for the warning. :)

Sketcha

02-23-07, 06:22 PM

plazman

Feeling better now? :)
He does that now and again, doesn't he.

Remember the first few pages of the Neilsen thread?

Glad to see you back on your feet, Plaz. What was it, Kosty's work that brought you back home?

Did I ever get an answer from you on the whole conspiracy thing, or are you over that in favor of HD DVD nationalism?

WayneL

02-23-07, 06:22 PM

At least the HD side doesn't have a Baghdad Bob declaring victory. Must be embarrassing.

Issac Hunt

02-23-07, 06:31 PM

post natal depression. ;)

Sketcha

02-23-07, 06:42 PM

At least the HD side doesn't have a Baghdad Bob declaring victory. Must be embarrassing.
Not quite the correct analogy. Instead I'll give you this one...

Now I have a tendancy to use political humor and Kosty cracks the whip on me for that (in a friendly way) via PM ;) ... so I will give you a vague reference that I feel is more appropriate.

I believe the BD fans you are referring are more akin to certain political figures standing on certain ship decks with certain, massive signs hanging behind them.

How was that, Kosty? :D

Point is, this most recent battle has gone to the BDA, but the war is not over.

Sketcha

02-23-07, 06:45 PM

At least the HD side doesn't have a Baghdad Bob declaring victory. Must be embarrassing.
Also I hope you are not inferring that I was disparaging Plazman. If it sounded that way, it was unintentional. More like good natured ribbing amongst friends.

WayneL

02-23-07, 06:50 PM

skogan

02-23-07, 06:52 PM

Not quite the correct analogy. Instead I'll give you this one...

Now I have a tendancy to use political humor and Kosty cracks the whip on me for that (in a friendly way) via PM ;) ... so I will give you a vague reference that I feel is more appropriate.

I believe the BD fans you are referring are more akin to certain political figures standing on certain ship decks with certain, massive signs hanging behind them.

How was that, Kosty? :D

Point is, this most recent battle has gone to the BDA, but the war is not over.

You know, that really was a good analogy.

Issac Hunt

02-23-07, 06:54 PM

your image posting skills suck :D

skogan

02-23-07, 07:05 PM

your image posting skills suck :D
Yeah, I execute poorly.

http://www.isaachunt.net/Pics/Logos/corner.gif

Sketcha

02-23-07, 07:07 PM

Not directed at you Sketcha. Stringer

"Senior Iraqi officials remained defiant today in the face of American military might, asserting that Iraqi soldiers and suicide bombers had "crushed" American troops at Baghdad's international airport and broken the American advance on the capital into isolated pockets that were surrendering to relentless Iraqi attacks." - NYT
You see the problem with that analogy is the U.S. was clearly blowing doors that that time. Right now, this "war" is pretty much a tie with momentum swinging in BD's favor.

Maybe I'm not following you.

Issac Hunt

02-23-07, 07:21 PM

Yeah, I execute poorly.

http://www.isaachunt.net/Pics/Logos/corner.gif
you googled? you tech wizard you!

Issac Hunt - "A subtle statement of self realisation"

WayneL

02-23-07, 07:22 PM

A false declaration of victory is often a sign of desperation. Sony knows something we don't?

darinp2

02-23-07, 07:29 PM

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6419351.html

From the editor at large at Video BusinessIt would be nice if he didn't have an error in stating that the PS3 "came packaged with a $15 coupon for a BD movie." I'm still wondering if he got that incorrect information off this site. The PS3 came with a rebate booklet for $10 rebates (not $10 coupons). I would have probably used coupons, but haven't done the rebates.

--Darin

Sketcha

02-23-07, 07:34 PM

A false declaration of victory is often a sign of desperation. Sony knows something we don't?
I would call it more of a shrewd, political move designed to fool the ignorant off the fence in hope of gaining more momentum.

onanie

02-23-07, 07:35 PM

A false declaration of victory is often a sign of desperation. Sony knows something we don't?

It could very well be a real declaration of victory. Maybe Sony does know something about their business.

WayneL

02-23-07, 07:41 PM

It could very well be a real declaration of victory. Maybe Sony does know something about their business.
I'm sure the other side do too, and I see no hints of capitulation or bragadaccio. Sony's treatment of "truth" has been spotty to say the least.

Kosty

02-23-07, 08:07 PM

It would be nice if he didn't have an error in stating that the PS3 "came packaged with a $15 coupon for a BD movie." I'm still wondering if he got that incorrect information off this site. The PS3 came with a rebate booklet for $10 rebates (not $10 coupons). I would have probably used coupons, but haven't done the rebates.

--Darin
I think I found the answer.

I've now had some people swear to me there was a $15 coupon or rebate, at least in some PS3 boxes.

I think it may be that there was a $10 coupon that was included in some first production packaging of the PS3 that was distributed to news organizations and A/V market reviewers. I think some guys there assumed it went into the main production run.

Somewhere along the way , the offer got changed to the Sony rebate offer, which had the possible $70 off rebate, $10 for up to 7 Blu-ray movies.

Its also possible that Sony provided different offers to different Blu-ray owners as a market test, to see what offer generated the most sales.

I just think the PC magazine article assumed the $15 offer went into every box. the VB article either assumed the PC Mag article was correct or fell for the same assumption from their own pre-release PS3.

Kosty

02-23-07, 08:11 PM

I would call it more of a shrewd, political move designed to fool the ignorant off the fence in hope of gaining more momentum. usually used by 3rd world dictators packing up their gold bars and silverware while checking for outbound flights to retirement destinations. :D

Kosty

02-23-07, 08:13 PM

It could very well be a real declaration of victory. Maybe Sony does know something about their business. If you have to say you are cool, your not cool.

Usually the side that is in a position of strength lets actions speak louder than words.

You don't have to bluff to victory, if you are confident of the long term outcome.

You just let events take their course.

2Channel

02-23-07, 08:24 PM

I would call it more of a shrewd, political move designed to fool the ignorant off the fence in hope of gaining more momentum.

Yes, and all too representative of the BD strategy as a whole. Sometimes this type of strategy works, sometimes it doesn't. Peronally I find it distasteful, as it says once more that the BDA's efforts are not focused on winning by providing the customer a better product. They'd rather fool the ignorant.

onanie

02-23-07, 08:36 PM

If you have to say you are cool, your not cool.

Usually the side that is in a position of strength lets actions speak louder than words.

You don't have to bluff to victory, if you are confident of the long term outcome.

You just let events take their course.

You suggest that no one has ever announced a victory?

Kosty

02-23-07, 08:50 PM

WayneL

02-23-07, 08:56 PM

Kosty, I like your characterization. Hopefully someone in mainstream media plagiarizes you and puts a stop to the nonsense.

onanie

02-23-07, 09:40 PM

Sure, but for those who win its usually well after events in the field eliminate all doubt on who will ultimately prevail.

Ones that declare victory while the battle is in doubt or could turn against them are usually bluffing or are trying to hold together a base of political support or stop a unwieldy coalition from splintering.

Oops, did I just describe the BDA?

A 2:1 YTD sales performance, despite hardware prices at twice the competition's (mind boggling, isn't it?), constitutes a win. Who could blame Sony's eagerness to declare victory?

nataraj

02-23-07, 09:52 PM

Who could blame Sony's eagerness to declare victory?

The same studios who got burnt on UMD ?

thomopolis

02-23-07, 11:09 PM

The only thing this format war has in common with UMD is they all play movies.

The data recently doesn't portend the end of the war. It doesn't even portend the beginning of the end, which is really the only important conclusion that we can draw from sales in the last 2 months.

For two years people debated on whether the PS3 would be used to play movies, and if so, how much?

For the first two months it appears "yes" and roughly 1/3 to 1/4 as much as standalone players. This should be enough to sustain BD until the CE's get around to releasing lower priced players.

Meanwhile, HD-DVD has shown it will not rollover in the face of the PS3. Hardware sales are up even though there has been a slow down in movie releases (Universal can only go so deep so quickly). The player prices are very tempting if there are already movies out you want to watch.

Two formats can survive indefinitely as long as studios produce movies for them. Studios will keep producing movies as long as people buy them. Think of the format war as the war between McDonalds and Burger King. It doesn't really matter who is first or second between the two; Coke and Pepsi are going to fight to sell to the customers of both. They won't abandon the second just because it is smaller.

At some point Disney and Fox will not be able to ignore the size of the HD-DVD market. At some point Universal will not be able to ignore the size of the PS3 (divided by 4) and the Japanese market. Sony can ignore everyone forever, but thats Sony.

Slim GoodBooty

02-23-07, 11:15 PM

Kosty

02-23-07, 11:44 PM

A 2:1 YTD sales performance, despite hardware prices at twice the competition's (mind boggling, isn't it?), constitutes a win. Who could blame Sony's eagerness to declare victory? I love it.

In one concise sentence that's the perfect example of the confusion of wanting to count the PS3 for movie sales (2:1 YTD sales performance) but not count as a standalone player (hardware prices at twice the competition)

....ah... you can't have it both ways.... besides the BDA does the same thing too...

....priceless...

2Channel

02-24-07, 01:18 AM

Another 3+ hour title on HD-DVD. Not bad for a 45 year old title.

Mutiny on the Bounty - 1962 - 4/5 PQ
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/mutinyonthebounty1962.html

Warner continues excel at authoring these old titles, with no compression artifacts or noise to mar the presentation. Kudos!

Snickering Hound

02-24-07, 02:00 AM

The same studios who got burnt on UMD ?

Interesting that you bring that up...

This article is from June of 06'

http://videobusiness.com/article/CA6344569.html

PSP loses support
Studios narrow release slate to select titles

Reasons vary for the UMD decline. Some retailers say they are seeing PSP consumers buy increasingly more games than film or TV titles.

“Sales of PSP hardware still remain quite strong, but it has become evident that the strength of the format is coming from gamers instead of film fans,” said Virgin buyer Chris Anstey.

That UMD movie debacle is very recent history.

onanie

02-24-07, 02:23 AM

I love it.

In one concise sentence that's the perfect example of the confusion of wanting to count the PS3 for movie sales (2:1 YTD sales performance) but not count as a standalone player (hardware prices at twice the competition)

....ah... you can't have it both ways.... besides the BDA does the same thing too...

....priceless...

No, you can't have it both ways. So which is it, dear kosty? Is Blu-ray too expensive to get into, or simply good value?

onanie

02-24-07, 02:28 AM

The same studios who got burnt on UMD ?

I'd be willing to forget Universal :)

onanie

02-24-07, 02:36 AM

$600 is double $500? :confused:

Did you miss those $3xx HD-A1s (and now XA1s)? Did the $200 360 addon escape your attention?

Sketcha

02-24-07, 03:29 AM

usually used by 3rd world dictators packing up their gold bars and silverware while checking for outbound flights to retirement destinations. :D
:D :D :D

Sounds good to me! Where do I sign? :D

Sketcha

02-24-07, 03:33 AM

Yes, and all too representative of the BD strategy as a whole. Sometimes this type of strategy works, sometimes it doesn't. Peronally I find it distasteful, as it says once more that the BDA's efforts are not focused on winning by providing the customer a better product. They'd rather fool the ignorant.
So you're saying Blu-ray is an inferior product. Good luck trying to convince the multitude of recent, neutral folk, on this forum, of that one.

I think the products are very near equal in ability, Sony is just trying to sell those on the fence that by choosing their format, you are much less likely to be left out in the cold after the smoke clears. That is not a hard sell, my friend. ;)

Kosty

02-24-07, 03:42 AM

No, you can't have it both ways. So which is it, dear kosty? Is Blu-ray too expensive to get into, or simply good value? At the moment, yes for the first, no for the second unless you wanted a PS3 anyway, in that case no for both. ;)

Ruined

02-24-07, 05:58 AM

yampan

02-24-07, 09:17 AM

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6418854.html

HD DVD plugs into Circuit City

Support from retailer, Microsoft could help format against Blu-ray

Major new retail channels should help disc sales if there are enough players in the field to use them with.

That's Toshiba finally starting to spend POS money.

So within 1 1/2 to 2 months, Toshiba sold as many HD DVD players as they had in the previous 8 months.

That's at least 4 times the sales rate. Thats a new number. 1,400,000 for total sales through Feb 10th.

Gee , maybe those new retail outlets may have some more players to sell discs to if the MSRP drops by $100.

If street prices are $349 now for a HD A2??? What will they be this fall?

Attach rates anyone?

:D Too soon to call the war over?

$399 HD A2 MSRP within 60 days. $299 HD DVD MSRP players by this fall. Any guess on street prices?

This is one of the first proactive moves we have seen from Toshiba at the retail level.
If you're going to buy one of these from bb or cc, make it cc; they deserve your business much more. They have demos of A-2s and xbox add on up an running and are clearly on board the HD bus now. You all know how bb is handling things.

Also, maybe Microsoft is realizing that the way to sell more Xboxes and add ons (and gaming software) is not to proclaim the hard medium a temporary phenomenon which will give way to downloading. Hopefully they realize that generating more HD media itself is good for their Xbox and consequently their software sales for it.

Kosty, IMO (which doesn't mean much) $299 HD-DVD MSRP by fall means Toshiba would not be too far from a deal with the likes of Wal-mart. A little loss-leader perhaps?

yampan

02-24-07, 09:25 AM

P.S. to my above post.

If Toshiba can get cc on board, which has not carried their products in a long time, maybe they have more marketing ideas than we have given them credit for.

nataraj

02-24-07, 11:52 AM

I'd be willing to forget Universal :)

who cares what yo are willing for forget. Are studios willing to forget UMD ...and if Whey do will they be forgiven by their shareholders ?

UxiSXRD

02-24-07, 12:34 PM

Esp. since you can't understand concepts like sunk or marginal cost.

Maybe he doesn't believe that the High Def disc market should be limited to Xbox owners?

Or he doesn't believe it's sunk or marginal. I already had my 360 well before my add-on, but still only think it's fair to count the price of the 360 when discussing price of entry to HDDVD.

thomopolis

02-24-07, 01:43 PM

who cares what yo are willing for forget. Are studios willing to forget UMD ...and if Whey do will they be forgiven by their shareholders ?

Is this now the new rallying cry of HD-DVD? Remember the Alamo (UMD)?

The studios put their movies on UMD while they sold. They stopped when they didn't. Deciding in advance to not put their movies on BluRay because a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY went south is very, very poor business. They are both game systems, but one is for when you are sitting on a bus.

Right now Fox, Disney, Warner, Paramount, and Sony titles are selling very well to BluRay owners. And if I was an owner of Universal shares, I would not give a da__. Both formats are rounding errors to the bottom line right now and companies are allowed to make initial decisions based on instinct and past experiences.

Back in January we had people saying, "well it's only 1-2 weeks of sales, it will change." Now it is, "we only have 1-2 months of sales, it will change."

What happens when it is six? Or a year? What happens when the high def market gets to the point where it is a noticeable fraction to the bottom line? Can Universal still hold onto the "well, well, UMD didn't work so we left a few hundred $million on the table for the PS3 and abandoned Japan to the other studios.....Makes sense right?"

Now that will be a shareholder meeting!

2Channel

02-24-07, 01:57 PM

So you're saying Blu-ray is an inferior product. Good luck trying to convince the multitude of recent, neutral folk, on this forum, of that one.

I think the products are very near equal in ability, Sony is just trying to sell those on the fence that by choosing their format, you are much less likely to be left out in the cold after the smoke clears. That is not a hard sell, my friend. ;)

I did not say that BD is inferior (though it was at launch). I said that the BDA would rather win by fooling the ignorant (as you put it) than producing a superior product to HD-DVD. I agree with your comment above, the BDA, however, does not. Their pitch is very clear and intentionaly missleading. Here's the CES BDA pitch in a nutshell:

1. Blu-Ray movies are on 50GB discs vs 30GB for HD-DVD
2. Blu-Ray has greater bandwidth than HD-DVD
3. Blu-Ray looks better than HD-DVD
4. Blu-Ray has much more content
5. Blu-Ray has already won

I guess 1 out of 5 for honesty is more than I should expect.

After living through the DVD-A vs. SACD battle I feel pretty comfortable saying that there is currently no safetey in either format (with the possible exception of the HD-DVD/DVD combo discs). They're hoping these proclamations of victory wil pull skeptics off the sidelines and into BD. I believe they're wrong. My opinion is that it will take universal players to put consumers at ease.

UxiSXRD

02-24-07, 02:08 PM

Looks like 3... maybe 4 of 5 from my perspective. ;)

2Channel

02-24-07, 02:08 PM

This is one of the first proactive moves we have seen from Toshiba at the retail level.
If you're going to buy one of these from bb or cc, make it cc; they deserve your business much more. They have demos of A-2s and xbox add on up an running and are clearly on board the HD bus now. You all know how bb is handling things.

Also, maybe Microsoft is realizing that the way to sell more Xboxes and add ons (and gaming software) is not to proclaim the hard medium a temporary phenomenon which will give way to downloading. Hopefully they realize that generating more HD media itself is good for their Xbox and consequently their software sales for it.

Kosty, IMO (which doesn't mean much) $299 HD-DVD MSRP by fall means Toshiba would not be too far from a deal with the likes of Wal-mart. A little loss-leader perhaps?

Let me provide an update on BB as I was just their a few days ago. They had two HD players in their video department. The Sony BDP-S1 ($999) on the same shelf right next to the Toshiba HD-A2 ($499). They had equal shelf space for HD-DVD discs as BD discs and the two sections were adjacent. The HD-DVDs had a little better placement as they were adjacent to the main aisle.

In todays local BB weekend circular one page past center they had a two page spread with three players. The G1 Samsung $799 with $100 rebate (on the left), the HD-A2 $499 with 4 free HD-DVD movies at time of purchase (on the right), and the LG univesal player $1,200 (in the center).

It's starting to look like BB is providing more equal footing.

BTW - the Sony BDP-S1 box said it comes with a free copy of The Fifth Element. I wonder is it's eligible for a free trade in on the G2 TFE disc. ;)

2Channel

02-24-07, 02:12 PM

Looks like 3... maybe 4 of 5 from my perspective. ;)

We all have a different perspective. I'm sure Talk feels that it's 5 for 5. ;)

nataraj

02-24-07, 04:21 PM

The studios put their movies on UMD while they sold. They stopped when they didn't.

And you think they want to repeat the mistake or do you think they will be wary ?

dialog_gvf

02-24-07, 04:35 PM

Graffeo went on to say "HD DVD players continue to have an attach rate (life to date) that is more than five times that of Blu-ray players."

Any chance we can normalize the comparison?

Gary

Kosty

02-24-07, 04:45 PM

2Channel

02-24-07, 04:55 PM

nilsp

02-24-07, 05:55 PM

And you think they want to repeat the mistake or do you think they will be wary ?

Nataraj, you keep bringing up UMD disc sales, or rather lack of. Do you seriously see the same scenario happening to Blu-ray? I mean, seriously?

They are not going to repeat the "mistake" as you call it. They are not wary. UMD is a proprietary format that only plays on the PSP. Blu-ray is a format supported by almost ALL major CE vendors. HD DVD is supported by Toshiba/Microsoft. I'd say HD DVD is closer to UMD than Blu-ray, from a studios perspective. :o

WayneL

02-24-07, 06:42 PM

BD isn't trying very hard to be Euro-friendly are they?

2Channel

02-24-07, 08:11 PM

BD isn't trying very hard to be Euro-friendly are they?

With lower priced PS3s in North America ($189 less) that boast a more premium design, I expect that a healthy grey market will develope in Europe. Why pay more to get less? Of course for BD use you'll have to be careful about region coding.

thomopolis

02-24-07, 09:13 PM

And you think they want to repeat the mistake or do you think they will be wary ?

Sure, and I think they have!

UMD - there are two $30 devices at Target for the sole purpose of transferring your standard DVD's (and songs, and TV programs, etc.) to a PSP. I'm sure there are even cheaper methods out there as well.

the mistake wasn't in thinking that people wouldn't watch movies on a portable system. the mistake was in thinking they would pay for it if they didn't have to. They could buy the DVD for the same price (or cheaper) have that at home and still watch the movie on the PSP.

In fact, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that gamers aren't using their PSP to watch movies as well as play games. They just aren't buying the special UMD discs to do it.

PS3 - not portable, and the special disc has higher resolution than standard DVD's.

Now how would this remotely tell anyone that BluRay is going to fail because of the PS3? BluRay may ultimately fail, but for reasons that have nothing to do with UMD.

onanie

02-24-07, 09:20 PM

At the moment, yes for the first, no for the second unless you wanted a PS3 anyway, in that case no for both. ;)

Yes for the first? So blu-ray is expensive, yet it outsells the competition 2:1. Sony has no reason to be shy :)

gandley

02-24-07, 09:26 PM

Thanks to Mike Morel for posting on the News thread.

http://hdtvorg.co.uk/news/articles/2007022401.htm

The official UK charts company indicates that with the support of the Xbox 360 (which can play the HD DVD high definition format discs with an optional drive) HD DVD outsold Blu-ray by a factor of about 4 to 1 in the period leading up to Christmas of last year.

Blu-ray was launched a month earlier than HD DVD in October 2006 and struggled with a paltry 148 discs sold in that month.

We'll see how the cost reduced Euro PS3 impacts EU sales of both formats.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/02/23/euro_ps3/

London (England) - In an effort to scale back the prohibitive cost of the PS3, Sony Computer Entertainment Europe (SCEE) is removing a key feature for the official launch next month. Hardware cut-backs will result in limited backward compatibility of the system.

According to a press release issued today, the PS3 model that will be used for the launch in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and Australia, will be backward compatible with a "broad range of original PlayStation (PS) titles and a limited range of PlayStation 2 (PS2) titles."

Personaly i wont be buying a PS3 to play PS2 games but thats for another discussion game related, nice diversion tactic though.

PS3 in the uk on its own will even the balance, but there was a statisic out that said about 8000 hd dvd titles sold to about 1500 BDs (so were talking tiny figures for the UK market at present but im not sure that this is too date or per month). the UK market has been all HD-DVD, and early polls had HD-DVD devastating BR. but that is not the case now, the polls have BR just a few percent behind HD-DVD and we dont have the PS3 yet as a cheap player, heck we only have the panasonic, Sony and samsung players (no pioneer and im not sure if we have the Sony yet but think so).

But yeah i dont think the PS3 on its own will storm the market though its presales look very good with some stores recording record preorders for a console to date(and it will probaly play more ps2 games via software than the 360 plays xbox1 titles) but coupled with this

http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/02/bluray_friendly.html#more

Then the combination will put alot of pressure on HD-DVD in the UK and personly i dont think HD-DVD will stand up to this, the HD disc market is just so tiny here a sneeze would bolster either format.

2Channel

02-24-07, 09:42 PM

Personaly i wont be buying a PS3 to play PS2 games but thats for another discussion game related, nice diversion tactic though.

PS3 in the uk on its own will even the balance, but there was a statisic out that said about 8000 hd dvd titles sold to about 1500 BDs (so were talking tiny figures for the UK market at present but im not sure that this is too date or per month). the UK market has been all HD-DVD, and early polls had HD-DVD devastating BR. but that is not the case now, the polls have BR just a few percent behind HD-DVD and we dont have the PS3 yet as a cheap player, heck we only have the panasonic, Sony and samsung players (no pioneer).

But yeah i dont hink the PS3 on its own will storm the market (and it will probaly play more ps2 games via software than the 360 plays xbox1 titles) but coupled with this

http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/02/bluray_friendly.html#more

Then the combination will put alot of pressure on HD-DVD in the UK and personly i dont think HD-DVD will stand up to this.

I see that the Samsung Blu-Ray player is already less than in the UK than the PS3 will be when it launches a month from now.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-BD-P1000-XEU-Blu-Player/dp/B000ICKB2C/sr=1-1/qid=1172371100/ref=sr_1_1/203-3853370-2785501?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

That suggests the PS3 won't serve as the low cost BD choice in the UK that it does in North America.

Do you have newer sales figures for the two formats in the UK?

onanie

02-24-07, 09:53 PM

who cares what yo are willing for forget. Are studios willing to forget UMD ...and if Whey do will they be forgiven by their shareholders ?

Indeed, who cares. Last time I checked, Universal is the only one not producing movies on Blu-ray :)

gandley

02-24-07, 09:55 PM

2Channel

The PS3 is £425 here, not sure how thats more than £537.

Feb is still TBC

Preivious sales were

Blu Ray:
October 148 discs sold
November 492 discs sold
December 1194 discs sold
January 1,174 discs sold

HD DVD:
November 673 discs sold
December 7527 discs sold
January 5525 Discs sold

Totals: Blu Ray 3008 discs
HD DVD 13725 discs

This is with HD-DVD players availble in quantity and with healthy player imports from the USA + the 360 addon. I dont think one has to be a genious to see that the PS3 effect could either level the playing field or dominate the market even if only a low number of PS3 users buy a movie or two, the numbers for Blu ray will shoot up.

As a guess say only 250 000 consoles enter the UK at launch and only 25% buy a movie, well you do the math.

Richard Paul

02-24-07, 10:35 PM

2Channel

The PS3 is £425 here, not sure how thats more than £537.I am rather curious to know that as well and as much as 2Channel dislikes the PS3 I don't see how he got to the conclusion that the PS3 was more expensive than the Samsung in the UK.

gandley

02-24-07, 11:00 PM

heh

im sure it was a slip and not a FUD post.

the PS3 is a wonderfull product, not sure how anyone can dislike it as a piece of technology.

trgraphics

02-24-07, 11:45 PM

heh

im sure it was a slip and not a FUD post.

the PS3 is a wonderfull product, not sure how anyone can dislike it as a piece of technology.

Because not everyone is even a little bit interested in playing games. I know I'm not ,so buying the PS3 makes no since at all.

Why buy something that wasn't designed to do what I want it to? Remember, it's a game machine, first and foremost! Just becasue it can play movies doesn't mean that it is the answer for all people.

nataraj

02-25-07, 12:40 AM

Indeed, who cares. Last time I checked, Universal is the only one not producing movies on Blu-ray :)

Last time I checked other studios had not sworn on their first borns that they will stick to BD.

2Channel

02-25-07, 12:43 AM

I am rather curious to know that as well and as much as 2Channel dislikes the PS3 I don't see how he got to the conclusion that the PS3 was more expensive than the Samsung in the UK.

That was my mistake I confused Euros with Pounds. I've read that the PS3 is supposed to launch in the EU at 599 Euros. I saw the price of the Samsung in Pounds and was still thinking Euros.

Actually I don't dislike the PS3. I was planning to buy one right about now. That was until cjplay got banned from AVS. As a result I decided I would not be buying or renting any BD movies.

I do have plans to buy a Wii soon though. I just need to find one now. ;)

onanie

02-25-07, 12:44 AM

Last time I checked other studios had not sworn on their first borns that they will stick to BD.

Short of sacrificing their first borns, they seem quite happy to be stamping those BD discs yet.

Sketcha

02-25-07, 12:45 AM

Last time I checked other studios had not sworn on their first borns that they will stick to BD.
And they were all supposed to go neutral at CES too. ;)

nataraj

02-25-07, 01:00 AM

It could very well be a real declaration of victory. Maybe Sony does know something about their business.

Sony watchers would swear otherwise looking at their recent adventures in console area :p

nataraj

02-25-07, 01:01 AM

And they were all supposed to go neutral at CES too. ;)

strawman ...

nataraj

02-25-07, 01:01 AM

Short of sacrificing their first borns, they seem quite happy to be stamping those BD discs yet.

"yet", indeed.

trgraphics

02-25-07, 01:04 AM

Didn't Sony claim they would sell 6 million PS3 by March? I understand it's hard to keep up since they change the numbers so often but what happened there?

onanie

02-25-07, 01:07 AM

"yet", indeed.

Indeed. If UMD hadn't stopped them in August 2006, why would it stop them tomorrow? Remember your point? The answer for "Are studios willing to forget UMD?" is obviously yes.

onanie

02-25-07, 01:08 AM

Sony watchers would swear otherwise looking at their recent adventures in console area :p

Oh, you mean the Sony haters.

2Channel

02-25-07, 01:26 AM

Didn't Sony claim they would sell 6 million PS3 by March? I understand it's hard to keep up since they change the numbers so often but what happened there?

Yes, they did. What's your point? ;)

http://nexgenwars.com/
http://www.vgcharts.org/

Does Sony realize yet that they've lost the battle to dominate this generation of consoles? I'm sure they're hoping for a huge splash in Europe to make up for lost ground. At 425 GBP and 599 Euros that will be challenging.

Do the studios believe them anymore when they say things like 6 milliom PS3s by March?

skogan

02-25-07, 01:30 AM

They may can ship that many. But shipping doesn't have much to do with demand so much as the ability to supply. And if they can do that, then they will defenitely have solved their blue-laser diode problem.

Sketcha

02-25-07, 01:34 AM

strawman ...
You're right, nataraj, I am forced to use rhetoric as I grudgingly admit that I am unable to refute your statement that...

other studios had not sworn on their first borns that they will stick to BD

I thought for sure they had, but am unable to prove it.

Score 1 for nataraj. Bravo. :rolleyes:

Who is it that really sounds the straw man here, I ask?

darinp2

02-25-07, 02:30 AM

Totals: Blu Ray 3008 discs
HD DVD 13725 discs
...
As a guess say only 250 000 consoles enter the UK at launch and only 25% buy a movie, well you do the math.To put this in perspective, videobusiness.com ran something about both formats selling about 700,000 discs each and nataraj ran some numbers here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9868619&&#post9868619) that come out to Blu-ray selling about 400,000 just from the start of the year to February 18th and HD DVD selling close to 200,000 in the same period. If Blu-ray has done about 45k some weeks in the US, then 13,725 discs is a little over 2 days worth of sales for those weeks. They could sell 13,725 discs in one week if the UK got to about 30% of US sales rate and 2 weeks if they got to about 15% of US sales rate. In other words, even at over 4:1 there isn't much gap to make up right now, as you indicated. If they weren't giving "Casino Royale" away they might be able to sell 14,000 copies of just that one movie.

--Darin

trgraphics

02-25-07, 03:00 AM

Yes, they did. What's your point? ;)

http://nexgenwars.com/
http://www.vgcharts.org/

Does Sony realize yet that they've lost the battle to dominate this generation of consoles? I'm sure they're hoping for a huge splash in Europe to make up for lost ground. At 425 GBP and 599 Euros that will be challenging.

Do the studios believe them anymore when they say things like 6 milliom PS3s by March?

The point is that Sony has made many promises that have not come true and to blindly believe anything they say is foolish, at best.

Do the studios believe them? Would you?:)

The coupons are probably just about used up by now and the spring sales will start to tell a more true story of what impact the PS3 will have on movie sales, I believe. Unless of course they keep giving them away for free.

Like some people, I'm not convinced that more movies released is really a good thing. Most of the releases on BR I wouldn't buy even if they were available on HD DVD. But, thats just me. There are a lot of releases on HD DVD that I won't buy either. But, there seems to be a lot more teen flicks on BR that probably most people will not be buying in large quantities.

Like I've said many times. Quantity is not preferred over quality when it comes to HD movies. At least not to me.

Kosty

02-25-07, 03:38 AM

You're right, nataraj, I am forced to use rhetoric as I grudgingly admit that I am unable to refute your statement that...

other studios had not sworn on their first borns that they will stick to BD

I thought for sure they had, but am unable to prove it.

Score 1 for nataraj. Bravo. :rolleyes:

Who is it that really sounds the straw man here, I ask? Let's invite Grubert in here to referee the logical fallacies flying around :D I'm kinda confused. ;)

RustyC

02-25-07, 04:40 AM

trgraphics

02-25-07, 04:59 AM

And some posters (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=804723) were positing that even if Blu-ray were to win in the States that HD DVD could still take the rest of the world? :rolleyes: A total of 16,733 HD discs were sold in 4 months in the UK? Was that just for Amazon UK? If that's for the entire UK sales that's absolutely pathetic. The rest of the world will be a cakewalk for the PS3 and Blu-ray. :D

Have you been drinking again Rusty? You left out the part where BR only sold 3008. Now thats pathetic! But, neither is good for HD media in general.

Kampf kobold

02-25-07, 05:08 AM

... neither is good for HD media in general.

Thats the point.

In Europe the sales still means nothing to the format war. Perhaps after the PS3 has been released we can see something, but i dont think so. Most people dont know what HD is!

Greetz

Kosty

02-25-07, 05:24 AM

Have you been drinking again Rusty? You left out the part...... I think any post after 1:00 am local time should have disclaimers. :p

This month that should be after midnight for the HD DVD fans. ;)

mikemorel

02-25-07, 07:55 AM

Yes, they did. What's your point? ;)

http://nexgenwars.com/
http://www.vgcharts.org/

Does Sony realize yet that they've lost the battle to dominate this generation of consoles? I'm sure they're hoping for a huge splash in Europe to make up for lost ground. At 425 GBP and 599 Euros that will be challenging.With press like this? UK gamers charged more for inferior PS3 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/23/nplaystation123.xml)

British gamers wanting to get their hands on the new Playstation 3 will have to pay £100 more than their American counterparts for an inferior machine.

Around 250,000 PS3s are being shipped to Britain for the launch, to ensure stocks do not run low.

Sony today announced that the European version of its games console will only play a "limited number" of old Playstation 2 titles when it goes to sale next month.

The American model, in contrast, has much better "backwards compatibility" and plays almost all the old Playstation games.

The revelation has infuriated British computer games enthusiasts who say they are repeatedly treated like second class citizens by Sony.If I was in the market in UK or EU I would pull my preorder, just for protest purposes.

Do the studios believe them anymore when they say things like 6 milliom PS3s by March?You wouldn't think so, but with Sony yanking the EE out of PS3 in Europe, there might be a run on the current, highly backward compatible PS3's in the states (to get a PS3 classic for eventual EBay sale), because the removal of EE is is inevitable in the US, and soon. Some blind studios (e.g. Fox) could mistake this blip for real sales.

gb33

02-25-07, 08:25 AM

AnthonyP

02-25-07, 09:27 AM

And you think they want to repeat the mistake or do you think they will be wary ?

Obviously some studios like Universal it is repeate. They are supporting full force a format that is going no where like HD DVD.

Deja Vu

02-25-07, 09:49 AM

Obviously some studios like Universal it is repeate. They are supporting full force a format that is going no where like HD DVD.

Universal was enough for me to buy HD DVD discs. If you want content you need both formats. Will Universal sticking with HD DVD be enough to entice many BD owners to buy a HD DVD player? I think it will once HD DVD players hit that $350.00 mark. The PS3 made it happen for BD, that is drawing in the HD DVD owners. Now its HD DVDs turn to suck in the BD owners and that's what Toshiba et al. need to do and it really shouldn't be that hard. Two can play the same game. It will just be played in different time zones.

Cheers,

Grant

AnthonyP

02-25-07, 09:55 AM

Why buy something that wasn't designed to do what I want it to? Remember, it's a game machine, first and foremost! Just becasue it can play movies doesn't mean that it is the answer for all people.

it was designed to do what you want (play movies) it was also designed to do more that you don't need.

AnthonyP

02-25-07, 10:03 AM

Actually I don't dislike the PS3. I was planning to buy one right about now. That was until cjplay got banned from AVS. As a result I decided I would not be buying or renting any BD movies.

now that is funny. You make your purchasing decisions on one guys company telling him he should spend less time on a forum discussing his clients data?

Now I like Cjplay, and I put my signature for WB to give permission to his employer to let him come back. But blaming BD for WB not being to happy with it is a bit insane. And deciding not to buy a format because of that even more so.

AnthonyP

02-25-07, 10:05 AM

And they were all supposed to go neutral at CES too.

strawman ...

must agree with Nataraj, it was LG and Disney at CEDIA :)

skogan

02-25-07, 10:10 AM

. And deciding not to buy a format because of that even more so.

No more insane than someone buying into a more expensive format because he thinks it has audio improvements he can't hear and video improvements he can't see. :)

AnthonyP

02-25-07, 10:47 AM

Universal was enough for me to buy HD DVD discs. If you want content you need both formats.
won't disagree, but for now I am willing to wait, I don't think Universal will be neutral for much longer. There are obviously movies I would want to have that are now on HD DVD, but I have more then 20 movies that I have bought on BD that I have yet to see and from the release calendar on BD, I see the list of bought but not seen growing faster instead of shrinking.

Will Universal sticking with HD DVD be enough to entice many BD owners to buy a HD DVD player? I think it will once HD DVD players hit that $350.00 mark.
I think it will depend on all the factors, could be sooner, could be later.

The PS3 made it happen for BD, that is drawing in the HD DVD owners. Now its HD DVDs turn to suck in the BD owners and that's what Toshiba et al. need to do and it really shouldn't be that hard.

I don't think it is as easy as that. You already admitted that the PS3 is enticing some HD DVD fanboys. By I think that it is more then the Ps3 but the fact that there are too many good movies on the BD side and the BD side is growing much faster then HD DVD. I think it is people realizing that it does not look as good for HD DVD and hedging their bets. The problem is that you need just as much to entice a BD person and in reality even more (many movie fans that would go neutral without a though most likely already did, the J6P that bought a PS3 and has only bought 1 movie and might buy 2-3 more during the year he has even less incentive to go dual.

AnthonyP

02-25-07, 10:50 AM

No more insane than someone buying into a more expensive format because he thinks it has audio improvements he can't hear and video improvements he can't see

lol, only one problem. Those improvements are there. The difference is that I would rathere make sure my own deficiencies be the limiting factor. Since it is impossible to test the differences (we don't get both) I would rather err on the safe side then assume something with no proof.

rto

02-25-07, 11:09 AM

lol, only one problem. Those improvements are there. The difference is that I would rathere make sure my own deficiencies be the limiting factor. Since it is impossible to test the differences (we don't get both) I would rather err on the safe side then assume something with no proof.

But, you clearly are assuming something with no proof.

Sketcha

02-25-07, 11:18 AM

must agree with Nataraj, it was LG and Disney at CEDIA :)
Sellout. :D

I read plenty of posts about new, studio neutrality prior to CES. Doesn't mean their speculation was well founded. Obviously it wasn't.

thomopolis

02-25-07, 11:40 AM

Last time I checked other studios had not sworn on their first borns that they will stick to BD.

I hadn't realized Universal's exclusivity contract was so harsh! This is the first rational reason I've read on why they would ignore sales of the PS3 and Japan, and possibly Europe.

RustyC

02-25-07, 01:02 PM

Have you been drinking again Rusty? You left out the part where BR only sold 3008. Now thats pathetic! But, neither is good for HD media in general.If you read my post more closely you'd see I combined both the HD DVD and Blu-ray numbers. 16,733 total discs for both formats combined. It really doesn't matter what the breakdown is between the formats - 17,000 is less than the minimum run of pressed discs for any major studio title. Simply pathetic for highdef anyway you slice it.

Kosty

02-25-07, 01:37 PM

won't disagree, but for now I am willing to wait, I don't think Universal will be neutral for much longer. There are obviously movies I would want to have that are now on HD DVD, but I have more then 20 movies that I have bought on BD that I have yet to see and from the release calendar on BD, I see the list of bought but not seen growing faster instead of shrinking.
Thats one of the issues now with HD DVD owners. I've spent a lot of the last month catching up on movies I bought, but had not watched yet.

Why should Universal go neutral now , when by all accounts PS3 sales are less than forcast. After all they would have taken account a Blu-ray sales surge, and probably took a even larger amount of PS3 sales into account.

You already admitted that the PS3 is enticing some HD DVD fanboys. By I think that it is more then the Ps3 but the fact that there are too many good movies on the BD side and the BD side is growing much faster then HD DVD. This is one time that AVS members may be unusual. In this group, paying twice for a $499 player of each format type may be acceptable. but for most people that's a luxury. But a second $299 or $199 player may be rationalized and the first format done to that level will have an advantage.

I think it is people realizing that it does not look as good for HD DVD and hedging their bets. The problem is that you need just as much to entice a BD person and in reality even more (many movie fans that would go neutral without a though most likely already did, the J6P that bought a PS3 and has only bought 1 movie and might buy 2-3 more during the year he has even less incentive to go dual. Yes the people that bought a PS3 are less likely to go dual until HD DVD players drop to much lower prices.

Kampf kobold

02-25-07, 02:34 PM

I always read that: "No matter who wins, we lose" but in fact I think its "The longer it takes, the more we lose".

If I could i would force this battle to an end. Doenst matter which.

Greetz

Kampf kobold

02-25-07, 02:51 PM

Yes the people that bought a PS3 are less likely to go dual until HD DVD players drop to much lower prices.

Perhaps the HD-DVD Drive will work on the PS3, so you can go Dual with 200$ as PS3 owner :D :cool:

Sketcha

02-25-07, 02:55 PM

Perhaps the HD-DVD Drive will work on the PS3, so you can go Dual with 200$ as PS3 owner :D :cool:
And what if they could get the 360 to allow advanced audio through the PS3. Now there's something I would buy.

2Channel

02-25-07, 03:02 PM

now that is funny. You make your purchasing decisions on one guys company telling him he should spend less time on a forum discussing his clients data?

Now I like Cjplay, and I put my signature for WB to give permission to his employer to let him come back. But blaming BD for WB not being to happy with it is a bit insane. And deciding not to buy a format because of that even more so.

I thought you'd call me out on that. ;)

It wasn't the sole reason by any stretch, but it was the final straw. Let me try and put together a synopsis of why I turned away from Blu-Ray.

1. Learning that the vast majority of titles were still using a 12 year old codec (Mpeg2) for political reasons
2. Learning that the vast majority of titles are on 25GB discs when the story I had been sold was 50GB discs
3. Learning that the BD players for sale now are stripped down models that comply to the BD-Video 1.0 profile
4. Seeing a disregard to quality in the launch titles
5. Seeing very deceptive advertising employed to sell BD
6. Seeing an insider (Cjplay) make negative comments about the video quality of Talladega Nights and receive a backlash from BD insiders. This was followed by Cjplay posting an open apology on AVS, right after which his employer band him from AVS.

All of these things contributed to me turning away from Blu-Ray. But even so I have posted recently that I would not completely rule it out in the future. If BD starts to deliver on all of the broken promises, I will be interested in a universal player 2 or 3 years from now.

In the mean time I'm enjoying my XA2 and continue to buy HD-DVDs.

UxiSXRD

02-25-07, 03:23 PM

2Channel

02-25-07, 03:33 PM

I just wish there was some indication of a "winner". As someone who "could" talk his wife into a DVD player upgrade if I tried, and with a birthday coming up, I would love to get into the HD movie game. But I can't risk it. Because I am also a person who does not like to throw money away and be stuck with something practically useless in a year or two. So I will keep on waiting and not adding to the number of sales.
By the way if I were forced to pick one right now. It would be HD-DVD. For the player prices, movie selections namely Batman Begins, and the reviews of "better" more consistant picture quality. I must also admit that the name itself is what I prefer.

You are like most people in the fact that you're on the side lines. That's completely understandable. It's also why I have confidence that universal players will become prevalent.

Since you expressed an interest in HD-DVD, I'll suggest a couple of options. I'll assume you don't have an Xbox360 so the HD-DVD add on would not be an option for you.

Go to pricegrabber.com or shopping.yahoo.com and put in HD-A2. Sort by price and you'll find that the second retailer (same on both lists) is selling the HD-A2 at a very good price (hint - $3XX). They provide free shipping and have a very high star rating.

At this price you get a good upconverting DVD player that is also a 2nd generation HD-DVD player. You can further reduce your risk by renting HD-DVD movies from Netflix. You can also buy DVD/HD-DVD combo titles, but there is still a premium on those so you are exposing yourself to some risk there.

Personally I don't believe there is a high risk in either format. As I mentioned above, I'm a strong believer in universal players that will play both formats.

wco81

02-25-07, 03:34 PM

He never intended to buy and BD stuff.

He's blowing smoke.

2Channel

02-25-07, 04:21 PM

What HD-DVD's have you bought recently? :p Falling into format partisanship over such minutia (especially the outdated that no longer applies) seems to be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Your "face" being an anthropomorphic representation of general Hi Def enjoyment. ;)

I just got The Departed a couple of days ago. I still want to buy Robin Hood, Forbidden Planet and Animal House (I already own Casablanca). There are a number of upcoming titles I'm looking forward to as well. On the BD side, there are only two exclusive titles I'd be interested in owning. The Usual Suspects and The Hitchhikers Guide. It's not a huge sacrifice.

1) PQ wash since for at least the last 3+ months.

2) Who cares on teh size of the disc if you get the quality? Are you pissed when you get a 15GB HDDDVD? Of course, not.

3) Get a PS3 (which is pretty well nigh guaranteed by logic to have any interactivity added by firmware update that any dedicated players will. Or reside yourself to 1st gen hardware. Assuming you put any stock in such niche gimmicks like U-Control or Blu-Wizard.

4) Past is prologue. Any disparity in quality last just about as long as there was a single player on the market. There are now 6 and soon to be 7+ separate players.

5) :confused: All marketing goons should be lined up with the laywers and shot. :D

6) Take it up with CJ's Employer and start boycotting WB titles?

1. It's great that quality has improved to where it is a wash. Why did they choose politics over PQ when they launched Blu-Ray? What happened to the promise of delivering the best PQ?

2. It's not so much caring about the disc size, it's about not wanting to do business with a group that plays bait and switch with me. Be up front, tell it like it is and say 25GB is plenty of disc space to deliver great quality. Then when you launch proove it to the world. Don't tell me your product is 50 and that's going to give me better PQ than 30, then sell me 25.

3. Yes, I was planning to get a PS3 until...well see item #6. If you go back through my old posts you'll find me saying that I would buy a PS3 for the access to the BD discs for Netflix rentals.

4. My comment was about the launch titles. It shows a disregard for the customer.

5. There are good and bad marketing people, like every profession. The ones in charge of BD give marketing people a bad name.

6. Did you see the posts from BD insiders after Cjplay made his comments about Talladega Nights?

Frank Derks

02-25-07, 05:09 PM

I don't think that PS3 is going to make a real difference in europe.

Just found BR and HD DVD displays at a major record store where BR is priced 35 euro each and the HD DVD at 24 or 27 euro.

Both are too expensive. Most of the titles displayed are for sale at 10 euro in the DVD discount section.

nataraj

02-25-07, 05:27 PM

I hadn't realized Universal's exclusivity contract was so harsh! This is the first rational reason I've read on why they would ignore sales of the PS3 and Japan, and possibly Europe.

Excellent. Clearly shows you jump in on my posts without reading the context. :eek:

AnthonyP

02-25-07, 05:36 PM

But, you clearly are assuming something with no proof.

what am I assuming? that lossless is closer to the master? that is not an assumption, that is a fact. That is why one transfer is called lossless and the other lossy
that in all/most/at least one case lossless will sound better to me then lossy? no. Like I said it might happen that I can't tell the difference 100% of the time, if that happens then they are both the same and I lost nothing and either is as good. If just once the lossless (that was not included) could have been better and I could hear the difference then I lose a lot. With lossless I don't lose I can only win. With lossy how many times I lose is the unknown but what is known is that I cannot win. Because in the best case it is as good as lossless. It's like two guys making a bet tails no one pays nothing, heads A pays B (and we are not talking a double or nothing bet). For A to accept A needs to assume (or rig) the toss to make this bet worth while for B hew does not need to assume anything this is a good deal.

AnthonyP

02-25-07, 05:41 PM

Sellout.

I read plenty of posts about new, studio neutrality prior to CES. Doesn't mean their speculation was well founded. Obviously it wasn't.

obviously you did. I guess I should have added 2005 in my post. Obviously when that did not happen it became LG, Disney before the end of the year, then CES

Sketcha

02-25-07, 05:50 PM

obviously you did. I guess I should have added 2005 in my post. Obviously when that did not happen it became LG, Disney before the end of the year, then CES
I guess I ASSumed when I said CES, it would be obvious that I meant the most recent one.

Thanks for clearing that up.

AnthonyP

02-25-07, 05:55 PM

Thats one of the issues now with HD DVD owners. I've spent a lot of the last month catching up on movies I bought, but had not watched yet.

nothing new for me, I was the same way with DVD, I even still buy DVDs rarely, and to be honest I think that some of those DVDs I might never end up watching.

Why should Universal go neutral now , when by all accounts PS3 sales are less than forcast. After all they would have taken account a Blu-ray sales surge, and probably took a even larger amount of PS3 sales into account.

because by all accounts HD DVD is doing much worst. If HD DVD is getting it’s a$$ kicked 2:1 with 2M players what will happen when BD hits 3M, 4M and 6M even if it is a bit latter.

This is one time that AVS members may be unusual. In this group, paying twice for a $499 player of each format type may be acceptable.

Agree
but for most people that's a luxury. But a second $299 or $199 player may be rationalized and the first format done to that level will have an advantage.
even 300 or 200 is too much for most people for a second player.

AnthonyP

02-25-07, 06:25 PM

I guess I ASSumed when I said CES, it would be obvious that I meant the most recent one.

Thanks for clearing that up.

my original post was sarcastic and making fun of Nataraj (I think) that said that you were building a straw man because you said many HD DVD supporters were talking about defections pre CES 2006. I said he was right, that you were exaggerating (definition of straw man) and that they were saying it since CEDIA 2005

AnthonyP

02-25-07, 06:44 PM

It wasn't the sole reason by any stretch, but it was the final straw. Let me try and put together a synopsis of why I turned away from Blu-Ray.

1. Learning that the vast majority of titles were still using a 12 year old codec (Mpeg2) for political reasons
2. Learning that the vast majority of titles are on 25GB discs when the story I had been sold was 50GB discs
3. Learning that the BD players for sale now are stripped down models that comply to the BD-Video 1.0 profile
4. Seeing a disregard to quality in the launch titles
5. Seeing very deceptive advertising employed to sell BD
6. Seeing an insider (Cjplay) make negative comments about the video quality of Talladega Nights and receive a backlash from BD insiders. This was followed by Cjplay posting an open apology on AVS, right after which his employer band him from AVS.

1) it was not political, it was a buisness decision based on practicality. Personally I am more interested in better movies (and if that is MPEG-2 then use that, if something else then use that other one) I worked sinse 98 with videocodecs and there are some things I know

a) the Codec is not the most important factor
b) the bitrate is extremely important (but is dependent on CODEC)
c) source is extremely important
d) encoder is extremely important

2) who told you 100% will be 50GB. If you truly believe 25GB for most movies released so far how and that 50GB is needed why are you happy with HD DVD, it does not even have a 50GB disk

3) Why are you not bothered that the HD DVD players are stripped down? No 1080p24, no DTS HD MA, no MC

4) isn’t that less important then dissriguard for PQ in the future. BD showed us how bad it could look and they got much better very fast. With HD DVD they made the first few the best and PQ has gone down. You said in 2 that you felt BD conned you (by discussing the availability of 50GB, what about HD DVD where they made you think all the titles will be as good as the first ones?)

5) don’t see any of it, have seen HD DVD doing it (promising at CES 2005 Sanyo players, Chinese players)

6)the truth is that I missed the original conversation. So except for what I said in my previous post I won’t touch it except for adding that there must be something more that we don’t know. I( have read too many of his posts to assume he wrote something nasty enough that WB would take him out for that. My guess it had more to do with the exact reason we all loved to read his posts (that they were more informative then WB would like)

Sketcha

02-25-07, 07:13 PM

my original post was sarcastic and making fun of Nataraj (I think) that said that you were building a straw man because you said many HD DVD supporters were talking about defections pre CES 2006. I said he was right, that you were exaggerating (definition of straw man) and that they were saying it since CEDIA 2005
Oh, nice. Thanks. Glad you cleared that up. That just isn't the definition I was familiar with.

This one is a little more in line with what I was used to, but our defintions are similar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Either way, just saying that you were "making fun of Nataraj" is good enough for me. :D

P.S. I like this one from dictionary.com. Shows how his statement was a bit more sinister.

A made-up version of an opponent's argument that can easily be defeated. To accuse people of attacking a straw man is to suggest that they are avoiding worthier opponents and more valid criticisms of their own position: “His speech had emotional appeal, but it wasn't really convincing because he attacked a straw man rather than addressing the real issues.”
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/straw%20man

AV Doogie

02-25-07, 08:51 PM

1)
3) Why are you not bothered that the HD DVD players are stripped down? No 1080p24, no DTS HD MA, no MC

Most of the BD players do not play DTS HD or TRU HD, No BD Live capability either, etc. So, which players are stripped down when comparing the costs??? :rolleyes:

4) isn’t that less important then dissriguard for PQ in the future. BD showed us how bad it could look and they got much better very fast. With HD DVD they made the first few the best and PQ has gone down. You said in 2 that you felt BD conned you (by discussing the availability of 50GB, what about HD DVD where they made you think all the titles will be as good as the first ones?)

#4 - This is BS, if you took all the video ratings from most sites for the HD format movies and compiled them, you would have a measurement system which shows this is not true. See below from High Def Digest:
http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/02/BH1.jpg

WayneL

02-25-07, 09:11 PM

This is how I've seen "strawman" used

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

A "straw-man proposal" is a simple draft proposal intended to generate discussion of its disadvantages and to provoke the generation of new and better proposals.

Sketcha

02-25-07, 09:15 PM

nataraj

02-25-07, 10:04 PM

I bet our buddy, nataraj is cracking up at this right now. :D

Sure I'm ... esp. considering I'm not a native English speaker, and I assume, you guys are ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent.

Perfect in this case. Since I have never claimed all the studios are going to switch during CES.

Richard Paul

02-25-07, 10:07 PM

Actually I don't dislike the PS3. I was planning to buy one right about now. That was until cjplay got banned from AVS. As a result I decided I would not be buying or renting any BD movies.Call me skeptical since that sounds like a pretty poor reason to decide not to buy a PS3. For instance several Microsoft employees have done some rather nasty marketing tactics against Blu-ray on this forum but I am still planning to buy an Xbox 360. I wouldn't hold anything against the Xbox 360 simply because of what a few posters have done on this forum.

...
All of these things contributed to me turning away from Blu-Ray.To be accurate since you never supported Blu-ray in the first place you couldn't have actually turned away from it. You simply decided to never support it.

If BD starts to deliver on all of the broken promises,No offense but you are looking at this format war through HD DVD tinted glasses if you think that only one side has "broken promises". For instance HD DVD was going to have 87 titles launched in the fall of 2005, it was going to have cheap Chinese made HD DVD players in the fall of 2006, it was going to have native HD DVD support in Windows Vista at launch, and it was/is going to have triple layer HD DVD added to the specs. Anyone who seriously thinks that HD DVD has delivered on everything it has promised is fooling themselves.

nataraj

02-25-07, 10:08 PM

Oh, you mean the Sony haters.

No. Independant Sony watchers ... not fan boys.

Sketcha

02-25-07, 10:47 PM

Sure I'm ... esp. considering I'm not a native English speaker
Well I didn't want to say anything, nataraj, but...

ehh never mind.

AnthonyP

02-25-07, 11:29 PM

Most of the BD players do not play DTS HD or TRU HD, No BD Live capability either, etc. So, which players are stripped down when comparing the costs???

how does that respond to my post. He said he would not buy BD because there is no player with all the features that future players will have or can have. I just pointed out that it was the same for HD DVD.

It is stupid to have a grudge against one when they are both the same.

This is BS, if you took all the video ratings from most sites for the HD format movies and compiled them, you would have a measurement system which shows this is not true. See below from High Def Digest

read what I said. Nothing in it was BS and your response had nothing to do with what I said.

2Channel

02-25-07, 11:45 PM

It's prep time for the EU and Sony's getting ready for another flawless launch.

Sony Euro PS3 debacle risks a major fire storm
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37833

In the end, it is more classic Sony behavior, screw the customer for short term money. it violated the fundamental tenet of consoles to make a quick buck, this is the most un-Japanese business practice I have ever seen from the company. Rather than helping the company, it is simply accelerating down the console death spiral. It is also doing it on the back of European consumers.

Kosty

02-26-07, 01:41 AM

Worse yet, it violated the one fundamental tenet of console development.

What is that? Thou shalt not change the hardware functionality, ever, for any reason. If you are not working in consoles, this might seem like an easy one to trivialise, but it is the single fundamental reason that the console economics work and the one thing software writers base everything on. I can't beleive they just wacked the PS2 emotion engine to save costs.

To change a gaming consoles specs, midstream smacks of desperation.

Now designers may have to design and test for a Euro and North American version increasing game development costs if they use any PS2 functionality. AFAIK, those calls could be used at the same time in PS3 games and some Xbox 360 ports were making useof the PS2 EE routines.

That just made it harder for developers to port over games from the Xbox adn Xbox 360 to the PS3.

The only reason to do this is to save money.

Talkstr8t

02-26-07, 01:43 AM

Kosty

02-26-07, 01:48 AM

And yet today's Circuit City Sunday flyer had no mention whatsoever of HD DVD or titles but did advertise the Sony BDP-S1. Which simply means Sony probably paid money for that flyer placement.

Or maybe the HD A2s are selling well enough at Circuit City at full $499 MSRP that there is no need to advertise them yet? :p

RustyC

02-26-07, 02:10 AM

I can't beleive they just wacked the PS2 emotion engine to save costs.

To change a gaming consoles specs, midstream smacks of desperation.

Now designers may have to design and test for a Euro and North American version increasing game development costs if they use any PS2 functionality. AFAIK, those calls could be used at the same time in PS3 games and some Xbox 360 ports were making useof the PS2 EE routines.

That just made it harder for developers to port over games from the Xbox adn Xbox 360 to the PS3.

The only reason to do this is to save money.AFAIK, the PS2 chipset was included strictly to ensure backwards compatibility until a software solution could developed. Maybe Sony is close to a firmware update that will provide a software fix to allow all PS3s to play all PS2 and PSone games. The PS2 chipset certainly had problems playing some PS2 games.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/09/02/ps3_will_play_ps2_psone/

http://www.techspot.com/news/21835-ps3-to-have-builtin-ps2.html

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2184077/euro-ps3-plays-fewer-ps2-games

Anyone have any proof that this is not the case?

FWIW, this isn't the first time compatibility has been removed from a system. The PS2 did it when Sony took out IR and link cable support. The PSTwo did it when they took out the hard drive. The Gameboy Advance Micro did it when they took out the Gameboy chipset and link port and changed the slot.

Kosty

02-26-07, 02:43 AM

UxiSXRD

02-26-07, 03:46 AM

The plan has ALWAYS been to ditch the on-chip (EE+GS) solution for backward compatbility and go to software emulation. Maybe that's coming in the March update, too... I hope they have a silver PS3 for March, as well. I'll move the current off to the bedroom HDTV and get the silver for the front... Only non silver device on my HT rack right now!

webphilosopher

02-26-07, 09:10 AM

The issue is it may complicate game development besides pissing off consumers and gving the press something to bitch about.

All to save $27 or so per device.

The developers who read www.gamasutra.com won't be happy.

If they really want to save money, they should remove the Blu-ray drive and offer a gaming only console for less money. Offering both a Blu-ray and a non Blu-ray model would satisfy both gamers (who don't like the high price because of the Blu-ray drive) and movie-watchers (who are willing to pay extra for the Blu-ray drive). Most games will fit on DVDs anyway. Removing PS2 hardware functionality could be a very bad move, if EU consumers get wind of it in time. Sony's troubles in the gaming market may be due to Trojans' unwillingness to bring the horse into the city if it costs so much. At least the Greeks offered the horse free of charge. JMHO.

Maxpower1987

02-26-07, 09:32 AM

The issue is it may complicate game development besides pissing off consumers and gving the press something to bitch about.

All to save $27 or so per device.

The developers who read www.gamasutra.com won't be happy.

Kosty, the saving will be far greater than $27, the biggest cost of having the EE+GS backwards compatibility solution was housing the legacy hardware on a new mainboard. Now it is gone, expect a hardware revision and a new, smaller, mainboard and possibly a 65nm Cell and 80nm RSX, with a smaller powerbrick, leading to less heat production so less active cooling is required. Seriously the removal of the EE+GS will go a long way in reducing the cost of the PS3 for Sony (and eventually us, hopefully).

AV Doogie

02-26-07, 09:32 AM

how does that respond to my post. He said he would not buy BD because there is no player with all the features that future players will have or can have. I just pointed out that it was the same for HD DVD.

Thats fine, but the fact is, Blu Ray players do not have the same number of bells and whistles as the HD DVD players for the same cost!

It is stupid to have a grudge against one when they are both the same.
I don't hold a grudge against either camp. I just want to be able to get a decent player for $600 or less .....and I don't want to have to buy a toy to get it. The PS3 is not a consideration here, I don't want to mount the damn thing in a MA Rack, and the remote can not be configured into my control system!

read what I said. Nothing in it was BS and your response had nothing to do with what I said.

You indicate that the PQ on HD-DVD has been falling in some way as time goes by.... Boloney!! While it is true that some titles are better than others, the overall quality has been excellent, and I have the calibrated system to check that. I posted the graphics from the High Def digest to show you what these folks have seen and the PQ levels seem to be very consistent.

skogan

02-26-07, 10:00 AM

Maxpower1987

02-26-07, 10:17 AM

You know, it would be different if Sony said they were removing the PS2 chipset from all models because they have software emulation working. But appearently, they are only removing it from the European model and not the American and Japanese models. Which tells us that software emulation is not yet ready, but they want to save some money off the backs of the 2nd class citizens.

I would have thought that Sony will move all three of the major territories onto this cheaper version of the PS3 to lower costs. The difference being that there is already inventory in the channel for NA/JPN whereas EU has none so we will get the latest-and-not-so-greatest model. Once the inventory in NA/JPN has depleted you will see these revised PS3s come out.

wco81

02-26-07, 10:35 AM

FUD patrol is out in full force today.

skogan

02-26-07, 10:40 AM

FUD patrol is out in full force today.
Thanks for that enlightening comment.

Well done.

yampan

02-26-07, 10:44 AM

And yet today's Circuit City Sunday flyer had no mention whatsoever of HD DVD or titles but did advertise the Sony BDP-S1.

In the 2/23 article from Video Business, the VP of marketing for Toshiba was quoted as saying that "Circuit City has become a very strong Partner". I take this a having meaning far beyond the Sunday flier, which as Kosty points out may have been paid for by Sony. The real significance is what's going on inside of cc. If, in fact, a potential buyer was attracted by that ad, which is dubious at best, they would now find an A-2 up and running at half the price of the Sony.

Toshiba players before years end had no presence at cc. Then they were there, somewhere out of sight, out of mind. Now they are very much on a equal footing with BD at a much lower price. In fact, the last time I was in my local cc, they had the Xbox add on running and the sales guy was fiddling with a VGA cable for his own monitor. These differences may seen subtle, but how the salespeople deal with competing products does affect the average walk in buyer.

That effect could accelerate if the rumored price drop to $399 happens sooner, not later, and the studios coordinate that with significant new releases. Remember, just because titles haven't been released doesn't mean they're not there.

Clearly, the alliance between Toshiba and cc means Toshiba is not content to be placid and rely just on good will by word of mouth. I have been critical of their seeming lack of marketing, as have others. But at this point I think we have to give Toshiba the benefit of the doubt. However plodding it may appear to us who wish things to happen quickly, I feel more confident that Toshiba has other strategies it will implement when it feels the time is right.

All of these day by day announcements of total media sales for either side really mean very little, because they are very small numbers and very fluid. Does abundant media help hardware sales? Of course it does. Does better, cheaper hardware aid media sales? You bet. Both sides are right on this. You need both the chicken and the egg if you want omelets every day.

If Toshiba's total strategy is all hardware oriented, then, of course, HD is a dead duck.
I just have to believe that they are not that short sighted. This recent move with cc suggests that. We shall see.

webphilosopher

02-26-07, 01:34 PM

In the 2/23 article from Video Business, the VP of marketing for Toshiba was quoted as saying that "Circuit City has become a very strong Partner". I take this a having meaning far beyond the Sunday flier, which as Kosty points out may have been paid for by Sony. The real significance is what's going on inside of cc. If, in fact, a potential buyer was attracted by that ad, which is dubious at best, they would now find an A-2 up and running at half the price of the Sony.

Good post. I think Toshiba is not exactly sitting on its hands and doing nothing right now. It is just not their style to make lots of unfounded noise and baseless claims. The same goes for Microsoft and Universal: Their relative silence should not be misinterpreted as "throwing in the towel."

RustyC

02-26-07, 01:38 PM

...I just want to be able to get a decent player for $600 or less .....and I don't want to have to buy a toy to get it. The PS3 is not a consideration here, I don't want to mount the damn thing in a MA Rack, and the remote can not be configured into my control system!
Looks like you'll be getting your wish early this summer.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/gear/2007-02-26-blu-ray-cheaper_x.htm

"Sony said Monday it is bringing out a cheaper player for Blu-ray discs early this summer, a crucial step in its battle to make the high-definition format the replacement for DVDs."

"The BDP-S300 will cost $599, yet will have the same capabilities as the $999 BDP-S1 Sony is currently selling, said Randy Waynick, senior vice president of the home products division of Sony Electronics."

"Stan Glasgow, president of Sony Electronics, told reporters at a meeting here that by Christmas, prices for Blu-ray players should be down below $500."

This must be a typo, right? Must have forgot the "y" in "Eighty".

"Eight :eek: percent of people who buy a PS3 also buy Blu-ray movies to go with it," Waynick told reporters at a meeting here."

khwiggins2

02-26-07, 01:43 PM

A 2:1 YTD sales performance, despite hardware prices at twice the competition's (mind boggling, isn't it?), constitutes a win. Who could blame Sony's eagerness to declare victory?

Maybe because those 2:1 numbers are practically literal at this stage? :D

There just aren't enough sales yet to declare a winner. It's like Sony trying to say they won the DVD-A/SACD war.

webphilosopher

02-26-07, 02:02 PM

"Eight percent of people who buy a PS3 also buy Blu-ray movies to go with it," Waynick told reporters at a meeting here."

You have to remember that this attach rate only includes those who BUY a PS3, not those who receive one as a gift or as a "consideration" for writing favorable reviews and forum posts. :p

UxiSXRD

02-26-07, 02:04 PM

Technically DVD-A is dead while SACD is just comatose... ;)

webphilosopher

02-26-07, 02:09 PM

Technically DVD-A is dead while SACD is just comatose... ;)

I think that lossless PCM or TrueHD is likely to be the next audio standard anyway. It would be interesting to have Blu-ray Audio or HD DVD Audio music recordings. They would probably fit nicely on DVD-9 disks.

wco81

02-26-07, 02:23 PM

You have to remember that this attach rate only includes those who BUY a PS3, not those who receive one as a gift or as a "consideration" for writing favorable reviews and forum posts. :p

Documentation of that?

There is certainly documentation of MS giving laptops with HD-DVD drives to certain bloggers.

Nobody beats MS for astroturfing. :rolleyes:

Ilka

02-26-07, 02:33 PM

Documentation of that?

There is certainly documentation of MS giving laptops with HD-DVD drives to certain bloggers.

Nobody beats MS for astroturfing. :rolleyes:

Fascinating ... how do I get one?

Kosty

02-26-07, 02:47 PM

Kosty, the saving will be far greater than $27, the biggest cost of having the EE+GS backwards compatibility solution was housing the legacy hardware on a new mainboard. Now it is gone, expect a hardware revision and a new, smaller, mainboard and possibly a 65nm Cell and 80nm RSX, with a smaller powerbrick, leading to less heat production so less active cooling is required. Seriously the removal of the EE+GS will go a long way in reducing the cost of the PS3 for Sony (and eventually us, hopefully). Thanks, I didn't know that. I was going after the chip price quoted in the Inq article.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37833

Reducing the cost is essential for Sony to produce as many as they want to.

Will the software emulation of the PS2 routines be identical to the PS3 and PS2 EE performance, if not the developer problem remains.

Kosty

02-26-07, 03:01 PM

Documentation of that?

There is certainly documentation of MS giving laptops with HD-DVD drives to certain bloggers.

Nobody beats MS for astroturfing. :rolleyes: The details of that case included MSFT specifically stating that they would not edit content and it was limited to specific technically literate bloggers open to both sides of the discussion. Microsoft wanted to encourage more conversation on that technical issue and the units were capable of running the cutting edge software tools being discussed.

It was also offered later to people writing about Windows Vista, yet not have the hardware ot run the Beta versions of the operating system.

It came into play because some bloggers could not run the software MSFT was providing them with their older hardware.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2077973,00.asp

They were not a marketing initiative, and were openly given as evaluation units so the bloggers could actively experience the cutting edge technologies they were writing about. They were suggested to be used as giveaways to blog readerships.

It was not intended to be a bribe for people to shill for Microsoft, although some people took it that way. it was meant as a means for people to properly evaluate software, including Vista.

You can make it as sinister as you want.

It was done openly, not as an astro turf type bribe.

webphilosopher

02-26-07, 03:02 PM

Documentation of that?

There is certainly documentation of MS giving laptops with HD-DVD drives to certain bloggers.

Nobody beats MS for astroturfing. :rolleyes:

Actually, the term "gifts" could also include all those holiday presents from spouses and children and friends and parents. It would help the attach rate not to include gifts, but only purchases.

So I was really trying to help Blu-ray with my post, to make the numbers come out better.

Documentation? We'll have to get those confessions somehow. Who wants to be first? :p

Hard to be funny once the shooting starts...

RustyC

02-26-07, 03:39 PM

Microsoft asks blogger to "balance" Wikipedia entry, offers compensation (http://arstechnica.com/journals/microsoft.ars/2007/1/23/6733) :rolleyes:

skogan

02-26-07, 03:54 PM

Microsoft asks blogger to "balance" Wikipedia entry, offers compensation (http://arstechnica.com/journals/microsoft.ars/2007/1/23/6733) :rolleyes:

This isn't really related to the HD DVD or Blu-ray, is it?

Kosty

02-26-07, 04:00 PM

I think its ok in this meandering thread. Rustyc's point is legit. IMHO

Its a followup to wco81's post about Microsoft's astroturfing which was in response to a comment on Sony astroturfing Blu-ray.

Kinda on topic, but its pretty much has run its course as those articles give a pretty balanced view of both sides of the issue if you read all the comments.

WiFi-Spy

02-26-07, 04:08 PM

Microsoft asks blogger to "balance" Wikipedia entry, offers compensation (http://arstechnica.com/journals/microsoft.ars/2007/1/23/6733) :rolleyes:

just to offset IBM's use of the same tactics

nilsp

02-26-07, 05:01 PM

You know, it would be different if Sony said they were removing the PS2 chipset from all models because they have software emulation working. But appearently, they are only removing it from the European model and not the American and Japanese models. Which tells us that software emulation is not yet ready, but they want to save some money off the backs of the 2nd class citizens.
And this was related to Blu-ray/HD DVD how? Just wondering... Walk the talk etc.

No matter, as Kosty said, I thought it also was OK since that was the topic of the discussion.

On the Euro/Aussie PS3 only being changed. As someone mentioned, they might be flushing the US inventory first. (Which might take a while... :o ) New continent, new updates to hardware. Natural, if you ask me. No more testing is required, new PS3 games don't use that hardware...

Maxpower1987

02-26-07, 05:03 PM

Thanks, I didn't know that. I was going after the chip price quoted in the Inq article.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37833

Reducing the cost is essential for Sony to produce as many as they want to.

Will the software emulation of the PS2 routines be identical to the PS3 and PS2 EE performance, if not the developer problem remains.

The problem with places like The Inquirer is that they are after the big headline i.e. "Sony F***s Over Europeans For Just $27", they never look at the bigger picture because it would not generate as much traffic.

The performance may actually be better on the Cell/RSX combo than the EE+GS, mainly because they are better chips, it will require a bit of customisation, and a lot of man hours from Sony to implement it. It will be like running the same game on a PC with a better spec, i.e. something with an 8800GTX and C2D rather than a PC with a P4 and 6800Ultra. You will be able to run the same game at a higher resolution and faster framerate. Obviously the example given is heavily simplified, but you can get the picture.

If Sony play this correctly it could turn out to be very good, though I don't hold out much hope when concerned with all things Sony at the moment :(.

So you know, MS have tried the same thing with the X360 backwards compatibility, but it turned out to be a really half-assed attempt and they only bothered with Halo and a few others, and it was a really long procedure, you have to put the game in, then go onto Live, download the emulator, eject the disc and put it in again to play. The difference in the Sony method is that they have created a whole environment for the PS/PS2 games to run in, much like you can create a Windows environment on Linux using WINE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WINE). The whole environment can be tweaked to improve the performance as a whole rather than going game-by-game, which could be very useful as they would be able to add something like 720p support to PS2 games in one fell-swoop instead of just doing a few titles at a time.

There are some great things that could be realised from Sony making this decision so early in the life of the PS3, it will just take some patience, which unfortunately many people lack these days. :(

Anyway sorry for the long post, I hope I was at least a bit informative. :)

skogan

02-26-07, 05:04 PM

And this was related to Blu-ray/HD DVD how? Just wondering... Walk the talk etc.

You're right.

I thought this was posted in the news thread, for some reason.

Yeah, its appropriate here, my apologies.

Kosty

02-26-07, 05:10 PM

Your just getting cranky after you went over 3000 in post count.

We forgive you.

At least I do. :D

skogan

02-26-07, 05:13 PM

Your just getting cranky after you went over 3000 in post count.

We forgive you.

At least I do. :D

Haha! I saw this post about Office documents on wiki, and I thought, "WTH is this in the news for? It doesnt have anything to do with Blu-ray or HD DVD news" Heh, I guess I should have looked closer.

Edit: Actually, I think it was moved over here from the News section, and my post with it. If so, I withdraw my apology :)

Kosty

02-26-07, 05:24 PM

I think it was here in the first place. Tough to move multiple posts.

Now you're just seeing things my friend. :p

skogan

02-26-07, 05:25 PM

I think it was here in the first place. Tough to move multiple posts.

Now you're just seeing things my friend. :p

Okay, okay. I messed up then. My bad.

bkilian

02-26-07, 06:33 PM

The problem with places like The Inquirer is that they are after the big headline i.e. "Sony F***s Over Europeans For Just $27", they never look at the bigger picture because it would not generate as much traffic.

The performance may actually be better on the Cell/RSX combo than the EE+GS, mainly because they are better chips, it will require a bit of customisation, and a lot of man hours from Sony to implement it. It will be like running the same game on a PC with a better spec, i.e. something with an 8800GTX and C2D rather than a PC with a P4 and 6800Ultra. You will be able to run the same game at a higher resolution and faster framerate. Obviously the example given is heavily simplified, but you can get the picture.

If Sony play this correctly it could turn out to be very good, though I don't hold out much hope when concerned with all things Sony at the moment :(.

So you know, MS have tried the same thing with the X360 backwards compatibility, but it turned out to be a really half-assed attempt and they only bothered with Halo and a few others, and it was a really long procedure, you have to put the game in, then go onto Live, download the emulator, eject the disc and put it in again to play. The difference in the Sony method is that they have created a whole environment for the PS/PS2 games to run in, much like you can create a Windows environment on Linux using WINE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WINE). The whole environment can be tweaked to improve the performance as a whole rather than going game-by-game, which could be very useful as they would be able to add something like 720p support to PS2 games in one fell-swoop instead of just doing a few titles at a time.

There are some great things that could be realised from Sony making this decision so early in the life of the PS3, it will just take some patience, which unfortunately many people lack these days. :(

Anyway sorry for the long post, I hope I was at least a bit informative. :)Except that everything you said is supposition. We have no idea how Sony is going to do BC, because they haven't done it in software yet.
The X360 BC is also a full environment. Once you have the latest update, all the titles supported will run. You don't need to update per title. It looks granular, because they only enable titles that are working well enough to be considered playable, but it is a full emulation of the XBox. That means that every time they change it, they have to retest every game to see if it's affected (either in a good or bad way). This means that they sometimes get "freebies" when a title suddenly starts working because they fixed some other title. (Read: Barbie's horse Adventures). But it's also a huge drain on resources, since there are many hundreds of titles. Would you prefer Mass Effect with 10% fewer bugs, or 2 old XBox titles that you already played to death?

As for "Halo and a few others", if by "few others" you mean 296 other games (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/backwardcompatibilitygameslist.htm), then sure. I've used it a fair amount, for Jade Empire, Halo, Halo 2 and Star Wars: KoToR (I have a weakness for Bioware games ;)) and while there was a glitch here and there, they played extremely well.

Sony will run into exactly the same problems if they go the software route. They have an advantage because the performance jump from the PS2 to the PS3 is so much larger than the jump from XBox 1 to 360, but it's still not a slam-dunk.

Consider the Xbox team's achievement in these terms: They're emulating, at full speed (most of the time :)), a 700MHz Intel chip with an NVidia graphics accelerator on a 3.2GHz IBM chip with a ATI graphics accelerator. Consider that my Athlon 64 3200+ has problems keeping a stable framerate playing a game designed for a 386/33 (Full Throttle) using emulation, and you'll realize that full emulation is a hard problem. The XBox team had advantages, because they could reuse existing x86 on G5 emulation knowledge. Sony doesn't have that advantage, they will have to build their emulator from scratch, and while the PS2 isn't stupendously fast, it is pretty complex, with vector co-processors the Xbox didn't have.

I'm sure they can do it, and I bet it will be pretty impressive, but don't belittle the XBox team's efforts, they accomplished what only a few years ago would have been considered impossible.

Er... </rant>?

Sorry about that, and it's not even remotely related to BD and HD DVD, but I see a lot of this misinformation going around and I felt it needed answering.

Maxpower1987

02-26-07, 07:08 PM

Except that everything you said is supposition. We have no idea how Sony is going to do BC, because they haven't done it in software yet.
The X360 BC is also a full environment. Once you have the latest update, all the titles supported will run. You don't need to update per title. It looks granular, because they only enable titles that are working well enough to be considered playable, but it is a full emulation of the XBox. That means that every time they change it, they have to retest every game to see if it's affected (either in a good or bad way). This means that they sometimes get "freebies" when a title suddenly starts working because they fixed some other title. (Read: Barbie's horse Adventures). But it's also a huge drain on resources, since there are many hundreds of titles. Would you prefer Mass Effect with 10% fewer bugs, or 2 old XBox titles that you already played to death?

As for "Halo and a few others", if by "few others" you mean 296 other games (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/backwardcompatibilitygameslist.htm), then sure. I've used it a fair amount, for Jade Empire, Halo, Halo 2 and Star Wars: KoToR (I have a weakness for Bioware games ;)) and while there was a glitch here and there, they played extremely well.

Sony will run into exactly the same problems if they go the software route. They have an advantage because the performance jump from the PS2 to the PS3 is so much larger than the jump from XBox 1 to 360, but it's still not a slam-dunk.

Consider the Xbox team's achievement in these terms: They're emulating, at full speed (most of the time :)), a 700MHz Intel chip with an NVidia graphics accelerator on a 3.2GHz IBM chip with a ATI graphics accelerator. Consider that my Athlon 64 3200+ has problems keeping a stable framerate playing a game designed for a 386/33 (Full Throttle) using emulation, and you'll realize that full emulation is a hard problem. The XBox team had advantages, because they could reuse existing x86 on G5 emulation knowledge. Sony doesn't have that advantage, they will have to build their emulator from scratch, and while the PS2 isn't stupendously fast, it is pretty complex, with vector co-processors the Xbox didn't have.

I'm sure they can do it, and I bet it will be pretty impressive, but don't belittle the XBox team's efforts, they accomplished what only a few years ago would have been considered impossible.

Er... </rant>?

Sorry about that, and it's not even remotely related to BD and HD DVD, but I see a lot of this misinformation going around and I felt it needed answering.

I was in no way belittling the X360 team's accomplishments (it was pretty obvious I was exaggerating, I hope), but out of the large catalogue that the Xbox had only 296 are compatible with the X360, it isn't great, though for the Sony solution I will wait for official numbers, thought they have said the latest titles will work, and pretty much all of the PS1 titles will work (great news for us FF7 fans!). Also it was not cool forcing Halo 2 gamers to buy an X360 if they wanted new Live! content, I hope Sony don't take that route with a seminal title like God of War 2.

The X360 solution looks less elegant than the Sony solution (dependant on actual numbers), you also have to take into account that games like Halo 2 will obviously be harder to run on the X360 under software emulation as the Xbox was pretty decent under the hood, especially in comparison to the PS2. I don't know how easy it is to run RISC on a PPC core (I have heard it is not too bad as RISC is incorporated into Freescale's Power Architecture which is a variant of what the Cell runs, is it not), but they seem to have done it pretty early so they may have been working on this for a lot longer than the PS3 has been out. They have said that the RSX will also be doing a lot of the heavy lifting in addition to the Cell, and the VPU/FPU in the EE sounds pretty similar to the Cell. I would have thought that the massively parallel nature of the Cell will help in this case, as you have 7 SPE cores to play around with, while not as customised as the three co-processors on the EE, there are more of them to pick up the slack.

I think to get as far as they have the X360 emulation team have done very well, but I do wish they had taken a similar view to Sony, use legacy hardware and get the software emulation working in one move rather than drip-feed us titles every 3 months. I still play Halo (I prefer it to Halo 2, better gameplay and all that) now and it was nice that they had that working as soon as I bought my X360, but Halo is a huge game so they have to get it working as soon as possible, the Sony route enables them to cater for niche games (like the Barbie Horse Adventures of the world) as well as the big ones, which is why I prefer it.

UxiSXRD

02-26-07, 07:15 PM

The 360's ratio is far far less than the PS3. The 298 games on the compatibility list is about 30% of the total titles released for the Xbox. In comparison, the PS3 had ~3% compatability issues to some 6,000 PS, and PS2 games. Those aren't even in the same league, let along the same ball park....

Not that the Xbox issue really affected me personally. I sold my original Xbox after the novelty of chipping it and doing NES roms, etc wore off. I did keep my KOTOR though and have played it more than a few times on the 360. :)

As far as $26... it's it going to be 2 million units for the Euro launch? That's $52 million clams. Plus whatever would be saved by production to North America and Asia. It would definitely be interesting in using iSupply's cost breakdown (even without the discount that nearly 5 more months would have brought) versus the Euro pricing that we already know...

bkilian

02-26-07, 09:17 PM

they have said the latest titles will work, and pretty much all of the PS1 titles will work (great news for us FF7 fans!).It also embodies a new combination of hardware and software emulation which will enable PS3 to be compatible with a broad range of original PlayStation® (PS) titles and a limited range of PlayStation®2 (PS2) titles.It's amazing how the actual press release gets reinterpreted depending on what you want to see.
I don't know about you, but if I had wanted to get across the idea of "pretty much all" of the PS1 titles, I would have said something like "most". "Broad range" is very weak terminology if they were trying to imply that very few games wouldn't work. "Limited range" is even weaker. It says nothing about the latest games, which are normally harder to emulate in software because they hit the hardware more.

Some additional PS2 titles will become compatible on the PS3 system through regular downloadable firmware updates, which will be made available through the PLAYSTATION®Network, from http://www.playstation.com or via PS3 game discs, with the first update planned for the launch date of the 23rd March 2007Sounds suspiciously like it's going to be exactly like the XBox system of dribbling out titles.

And now let's return you to your regularly scheduled HD DVD and BD flame war. Sorry for the interruption. (I'll direct any further responses to this off-topic conversation to PM)

PeterTHX

02-26-07, 10:37 PM

Sounds suspiciously like it's going to be exactly like the XBox system of dribbling out titles.

I have a North American PS3. I have a 360. The PS3 is far, far better with compatibility than the 360. Several HUGE XBOX titles like "Mechassault" will *not* play in my 360. Seems Sony has done what Microsoft did for Europe, so only "big" titles will play. I'm not thrilled Sony is doing this, but to give MS a pass would be unfair.

I skipped the PS2. I now have 6 PS2 games and they all play just fine in my PS3. A *minority* of XBOX games are compatible on the 360. I've even read articles where the 360 folks were debating why it was even wanted an even an issue. Some of us don't like hooking up multiple units to a TV (cabling, wiring, inputs, etc). I'd love to finish "Panzer Dragoon Orta". I want to play "MechAssault 2" on XBOX Live. I enjoy the original "DOAX" more than the sequel. Microsoft doesn't seem to consider it important.

EDIT: I hadn't heard of the European version of the PS3 being different as far as the Emotion Engine removal. Looks like Europeans can look forward to the same frustrations I'm having with the 360 :o