Thanks for summarizing the meat of that discussion. What I find disconcerting, in such a case, is, that we, the readers, would take away complete mis-info from the insider-post if someone like dr1394 was not around who had intimate knowledge of AVC specs.

In such a case, the damage would be more severe than if an insider was corrected a bit down the road, as happened here.
That's right. We kind of lucked out on this one. I wonder how many correction opportunities have been missed.

thanks to him for his fantastically detailed know-how. Much appreciated.
Fortunately we do have people like Ron vs. just one side of the issues.

That is one possible interpretation, and apparently the one you favor. It's equally possible that he was initially confused about this very specific capability, and after being called on it, did some technical research; finally returning to clarify/perform damage control. In any event, you're a long way from providing sufficient evidence to prove that his actions were a deliberate attempt to disparage a competing product.
You can read it your way, the rest of us will read it ours. The mods are the judges, in this case. If they see it your way, I'm sure they'll delete whatever they deem necessary.

The only issue I have with Dr. Don's statement is he does not address what should happen if someone makes an outright, false statement about the competitors product. To me, that's a bit more than "slanted."It appears to me with employees from Sony, Panasonic, Sun, Sigma, Microsoft plus some others (including a consultant to Sony) posting here that nothing important to a given side will be missed by the other side. I think we (non-insiders) can stand back and just read the insider thread when an insider makes a provocative statement of fact or opinion. We are also fortunate to have some insiders from smaller non-aligned companies posting there. JMO.


Do miss Tom from Broadcom. Get well soon Tom!
Also miss the Warner participation.

He obviously thought the best way he could damage Blu-ray and disparage the entire use of AVC was to highlight the lack of a 1 pixel versus 3 pixel limit in a specific process. :rolleyes:
You mean, to INCORRECTLY "highlight" "the lack of a 1 pixel..."

I must admit, Kosty I'm a bit disappointed.

When I was bitching about AVS burnout, a little while back, you implored me to remain stating that you appreciate the opinion of the other side, because the discourse helped you and all of us, to get at the truth.

I feel that the right thing for Amir to have done, would have been to apologize for his misstatement and THEN to clarify. Like you said, he may have been more concerned with damage control. But we would not be here discussing this, had he owned up to it, IMO.

He obviously thought the best way he could damage Blu-ray and disparage the entire use of AVC was to highlight the lack of a 1 pixel versus 3 pixel limit in a specific process. :rolleyes:
You mean, to INCORRECTLY "highlight" "the lack of a 1 pixel..."

I must admit, Kosty I'm a bit disappointed.

When I was bitching to you in PM, about AVS burnout a little while back, you implored me to remain, stating that you appreciate the opinion of the other side, because the discourse helped you and all of us, to get at the truth.

I feel that the right thing for Amir to have done, would have been to apologize for his misstatement and THEN to clarify. Like you said, he may have been more concerned with damage control. But we would not be here discussing this, had he owned up to it, IMO.

Does the law require intent to be proved? Not from what I read of the definition given. I may have misunderstood.

Of course. If he was merely confused, and/or misinformed, it would be an innocent error.

I'm not knowledgable in these matters, but the 1-pixel issue appears arguable. AVC can do 1-pixel, but it doesn't appear to be a standard option,

Yes, you can argue, but Amir made a categorical statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
AVC will either use 2 pixels on either side of a block edge or 3 pixels. It picks one or the other based on level of gradient. In no case does it go down to a single pixel as VC-1 does.
Don't sell yourself short. It appears that you know more than Amir, on this. :)

I am not the one who is making assertions about points of law and their application in a particular factual situation.

If you believe you can refute my assertions, feel free.

You can read it your way, the rest of us will read it ours. The mods are the judges, in this case. If they see it your way, I'm sure they'll delete whatever they deem necessary.

There's no universal consensus that your interpretation is the correct one, though your statement is worded in way which might suggest that there is.

You mean, to INCORRECTLY "highlight" "the lack of a 1 pixel..."

I must admit, Kosty I'm a bit disappointed.

When I was bitching to you in PM, about AVS burnout a little while back, you implored me to remain, stating that you appreciate the opinion of the other side, because the discourse helped you and all of us, to get at the truth.

I feel that the right thing for Amir to have done, would have been to apologize for his misstatement and THEN to clarify. Like you said, he may have been more concerned with damage control. But we would not be here discussing this, had he owned up to it, IMO.I'm with sketcha on this one... Kinda reminds me of the strawman setup, instead of an insignificant mistake. First you claim the competition don't to 1-pixel, then you tear it down for not doing it. That is, if Dr1394 is correct in what he is saying. And, if you are a VP and are going to compare your product vs. the competition, you'd better make sure what you are saying is correct, no?

FWIW, I don't believe Amir had the most sinister of intentions, but he was walking a slippery slope in "comparing" his product with his competitors. He may have just made a mistake, but he asserted it as fact.

Talking about desperation and brainwashing...

This is from one of the most "influencial" HD-DVD dealers/"experts":

No dealer would ever buy from NewEgg.

And regarding up-converting, I can tell you SD DVDs played in the XA2 with a little tweaking of the color and image enhancement tools you can get most BD exclusive titles in SD DVD to look just like the best BD player with the BD title playing.

And though not quite as great all other G1 and G2 HD DVD players do an excellent job of up-converting all SD DVD as well.

-Robert

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9949841&&#post9949841

btw the way - I have both, a XA2 and a PS3. I think I don't need to argue how insanely ridiculous this statement/"sales strategy" is...

I REALLY NEED TO CALM DOWN NOW.

Little follow-up:

I ask any member(s) to visit my store and see the XA2 playing a SD DVD with any BD player playing the same title on the same HDTV.

If you see any difference it would be limited select scenes and difficult to see any difference. The XA2 SD up-converting is unbelievable when set-up properly.

Sorry I wish it was different.

-Robert

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9950018&&#post9950018

Talking about desperation and brainwashing...

This is from one of the most "influencial" HD-DVD dealers/"experts":



btw the way - I have both, a XA2 and a PS3. I think I don't need to argue how insanely ridiculous this Statement/"sales strategy" is...

I REALLY NEED TO CALM DOWN NOW.
Wow!

I've never seen him post anything like THAT before.

That's balz!

Talking about desperation and brainwashing...

This is from one of the most "influencial" HD-DVD dealers/"experts":



btw the way - I have both, a XA2 and a PS3. I think I don't need to argue how insanely ridiculous this Statement/"sales strategy" is...

I REALLY NEED TO CALM DOWN NOW.

I have long wondered why that person is such a strong HD DVD partisan.

Don't spend too much effort trying to discredit his statement. It discredit's itself. I don't think anyone is buying it.

Instead, I recommend we all just laugh and say, "uummm no." That way, only he'll look silly for saying it.

That's my suggestion anyway.

Don't spend too much effort trying to discredit his statement. It discredit's itself. I don't think anyone is buying it.

Instead, I recommend we all just laugh and say, "uummm no." That way, only he'll look silly for saying it.

That's my suggestion anyway.

As I said - I really need to calm down. I just want everybody to see this.

“Unethical comments have transgressed to self-destructive ones.”

Don't spend too much effort trying to discredit his statement. It discredit's itself. I don't think anyone is buying it.

Instead, I recommend we all just laugh and say, "uummm no." That way, only he'll look silly for saying it.

That's my suggestion anyway.
I've done my fair share of detective work lately; pretty well over it.


He's pretty well respected and, up until now, judging from his posts, I could see why.

Maybe business is down. :(

I've done my fair share of detective work lately.

He's pretty well respected and, up until now, judging from his posts, I could see why.

Maybe business is down. :(

In my experience, his posts have shown a very extreme HD DVD partisanship.

I have long wondered why that person is such a strong HD DVD partisan.
I guess his username wasn't a clue, huh? ;)

In my experience, his posts have shown a very extreme HD DVD partisanship.
Well nothing wrong with that. This post does seem to go over-the-top a bit, though. I haven't, but maybe you've seen more posts like it.

Like I said, it was clear to me from the git-go that he was an insider, so I fully expected his posts to be partisan... just not this balzy.

Hey, is this like Anna Nicole to that crazy, Astronaut woman?

I guess you're off the hook, Amir. :)

I guess his username wasn't a clue, huh? ;)

Maybe there is a corporate connection I am not aware of; I would have thought a dealer would be happy selling either format.

Little follow-up: I think that Xylon's excellent PC based screen captures with the SD captures, bi-cubic (very good technique) resized up to 1920x1080, shows the inherent advantages of both hi def shiny disc formats in both detail and color quality. No camera or display limitations with Xylon's captures. Anyone can judge for themselves:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9915836&&#post9915836

I have a XA2 and can see the HD advantages in color quality over SD on just a little 34" direct view HDTV. I'm sure that the color quality on BD has a similar improvement.

Little follow-up:



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9950018&&#post9950018

Has that thread disappeared?

I have a 120" screen, and 1.4 screen width distance, there's no fooling it.

The thread where Robert stuck both feet in his mouth seems to have vanished entirely. I wonder if that was at his urging or someone else's. I didn't make it to the final page to see what might have transpired.

Has that thread disappeared?

CENSORSHIP...

What a ridiculous claim.

Why would people buy HD-DVD discs then, if the upconverted image is so close?

Way to undercut the sales as well as credibility.

Very interesting article....hard to pick out what to quote but the ending is probably the most interesting. I don't think Howard Stringer is long for his current job.

Internal Turmoil at Sony Uncovered
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=6342


Some of the blame can be placed on Stringer though. He decided not to have a permanent residence in Japan and instead lives out of a hotel when in the country. He does, however, own homes in England and New York. "Mr. Stringer has no background and he's not in Japan managing the day-to-day," said Fitch Ratings analyst Tatsuya Mizuno. "Sony's DNA is in electronics...so the top management needs to understand what's going on there."

Stringer acknowledges that even a token residence in Japan would go a long way in promoting a synergy within his company. "[I should have] faked it better -- I mean that seriously," said Stringer. "I should've put the flag up the flagpole and said here's my residence in downtown Tokyo -- I'm here! -- even if it's less practical than living where I live, and much less comfortable and friendly."

I have a 120" screen, and 1.4 screen width distance, there's no fooling it.

Neither with a 138", sitting 1.5x :p

What a ridiculous claim.

Why would people buy HD-DVD discs then, if the upconverted image is so close?

Way to undercut the sales as well as credibility.
Well, according to Robert, they should still buy HD DVD. :D

You know, because Blu-ray is so inferior to HD DVD that most upconverted DVDs look almost identical. ;)

:D :D :D

I have a 120" screen, and 1.4 screen width distance, there's no fooling it.
Yeah, maybe Robert is using a 42", SD (480p) plasma at 15', for this "field test." :D

Maybe there is a corporate connection I am not aware of; I would have thought a dealer would be happy selling either format.
Sorry, I was just ribbin' ya'.

Awhile back, after reading a slanted post, I checked out his homepage. There you will clearly see that he is HD DVD only.

Sorry, I was just ribbin' ya'.

Awhile back, after reading a slanted post, I checked out his homepage. There you will clearly see that he is HD DVD only.

Well, that would certainly go a long way toward explaining the extreme HD DVD partisanship.

Yeah, maybe Robert is using a 42", SD (480p) plasma at 15', for this "field test." :D

:D That would explain alot of things.

Something like the partner gets $450 rebate from Toshiba for every $450 A20 sales?

http://www.*********************/Panasonic%20DMP-BD10.htm

Not true. He is obviously pro HD DVD now, and he says thats what he recommends but VE sell a lot of Pioneer and other BDA CE electronics.

He obviously sells a lot more HD DVD.

Something like the partner gets $450 rebate from Toshiba for every $450 A20 sales?
And a free set of steak knives!

Well, that would certainly go a long way toward explaining the extreme HD DVD partisanship.
Here's his homepage... now he's getting free advertising. You know what they say about bad press...

http://www.*********************/avstc.htm

From what I've gathered, if you want to buy HD DVD, he seems to be a good guy to buy from. I've read that his support and customer service are top notch.

I agree that saying that the upconverted DVD is better or even to Blu-ray is a bit........over zealous?? Maybe on some early titles but not as a general rule now.

I think teh upconversion is amazing and better than expected with my HD XA2, but its not quite true HD.

Its pretty damn close, but upconverted magic still can't create background details or make a true 1080p out of 480i data now matter how artifact free it is. It can smooth things baby soft so its not distracting but in the backgound the detail isn't true HD. Its more than watchable, and it makes my old DVD collection watchable on a huge screen but its not quite either Blu-ray or HD DVD quality.

He does sell BD and IIRC h as something to the effect that he has higher margins from his BD product, but is undoubtedly an HDDVD partisan. I've also heard his customer service is excellent and have often contemplated buying an XA1 for him (and indeed still am! Though specific intent varies with how disatisfied I am with the 360 add-on...).

upconverted SD equal to BD is just ridiculous, though.

His HD DVD fanboyism is getting more and more extreme. No matter, any credibility he might have had in the HD DVD/Blu-ray discussion is now gone. What a JOKE!

things were going so well...

Please remember: challenge the info in a post: not the poster

Thanks ;)

Wow!

I've never seen him post anything like THAT before.

That's balz!Really. I remember at least 2 occasions where he implied the same thing. Still thinking that if people can't tell the difference between HD and DVD, they should save themselves a lot of money and stick to DVDs. The playing both sides of the fence at the same time is an interesting sales tactic to see though.

--Darin

He obviously sells a lot more HD DVD.


Of course he is.

He's probably telling anyone interested in Blu-Ray that upconverted SD is just as good.

I agree that saying that the upconverted DVD is better or even to Blu-ray is a bit........over zealous?? Maybe on some early titles but not as a general rule now.

I think teh upconversion is amazing and better than expected with my HD XA2, but its not quite true HD.

Its pretty damn close, but upconverted magic still can't create background details or make a true 1080p out of 480i data now matter how artifact free it is. It can smooth things baby soft so its not distracting but in the backgound the detail isn't true HD. Its more than watchable, and it makes my old DVD collection watchable on a huge screen but its not quite either Blu-ray or HD DVD quality.

Maybe Robert was comparing Kiss of the Dragon on DVD and BD? ;)

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/kissofthedragon.html
Presented in 1080p with the MPEG-2 codec, 'Kiss of the Dragon' is a visual mess. This is the first time I've ever seen such a thing, but the standard-def edition of this film has a higher quality print that's shockingly more stable.

I agree that saying that the upconverted DVD is better or even to Blu-ray is a bit........over zealous?? Maybe on some early titles but not as a general rule now.

I think teh upconversion is amazing and better than expected with my HD XA2, but its not quite true HD.

Its pretty damn close, but upconverted magic still can't create background details or make a true 1080p out of 480i data now matter how artifact free it is. It can smooth things baby soft so its not distracting but in the backgound the detail isn't true HD. Its more than watchable, and it makes my old DVD collection watchable on a huge screen but its not quite either Blu-ray or HD DVD quality.

Well said Kosty, a voice of reason!

http://www.*********************/Panasonic%20DMP-BD10.htm

Not true. He is obviously pro HD DVD now, and he says thats what he recommends but VE sell a lot of Pioneer and other BDA CE electronics.

He obviously sells a lot more HD DVD.
That's very nice, Kosty, but why does his "homepage" lead only to HD DVD gear? Yeah, if you can find the "Home" link, you can navigate elsewhere. :rolleyes:

Up until now, I never knew he sold anything else.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=60810

Interestingly enough, Value Electronics has a really big add specifically for Blu-ray players at the top of this forum. If It's not there now, refresh a few times. It's the big top-right spot.

Really. I remember at least 2 occasions where he implied the same thing. Still thinking that if people can't tell the difference between HD and DVD, they should save themselves a lot of money and stick to DVDs. The playing both sides of the fence at the same time is an interesting sales tactic to see though.

--Darin
Well, like I said, "I've never..."

I, personally don't spend a whole lotta' time in threads where he is more likely to post. Not saying never, just notta' lotta'. ;)

That's very nice, Kosty, but why does his "homepage" lead only to HD DVD gear? Yeah, if you can find the "Home" link, you can navigate elsewhere. :rolleyes:

Up until now, I never knew he sold anything else.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=60810

???
You didn't try very hard then.
Just type in www.********************* to get to his home page. Its been plastered all over AVS for quite a while now. Note: I've never bought anything from him, but I have looked at his site.
J

Top left of his homepage.

often has Blu-ray player ads right on top

he sells a lot of Pioneer Elite Blu-ray players and plasma HDTV's too

Home
HD DVD players
Blu-ray players
Flat panel TV's
DLP RPT
DVD players
MP3 players
Blu-ray player
Receivers
Accessories
Remote control
Flat panel mounts
HD video switch
DIRECTV acess.
DIRECTV
Equipment
Programming
Sirius Radiohe often has Blu-ray player ads right on top

he sells a lot of Pioneer Elite Blu-ray players and plasma HDTV's too

???
You didn't try very hard then.
Just type in www.********************* to get to his home page. Its been plastered all over AVS for quite a while now. Note: I've never bought anything from him, but I have looked at his site.
J
Not the point, J. When you click on his name in AVS, the words "Visit DTV TiVo Dealer's homepage!" come up.

That link directs you here...

http://www.*********************/avstc.htm

when it could direct you here...

http://www.*********************/

I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation as to why that is, but it is certainly good confirmation (though none is needed) as to his bias. And again, I don't really care if he's biased. There's nothing wrong with that, IMO. Now his statements, OTOH...

things were going so well...

Please remember: challenge the info in a post: not the poster

Thanks ;)

I don't know what most people here do professionally, but I do know what Robert does, and so does everbody who reads these threads. He has always postured himself as someone who proffers reliable, helpful,information. And he has always maintained a perceived distance from the HD core, by using when necessary his "nondisclosure agreements" So I find it entirely reasonalbe that the postershere today find it quite difficult, indeed, to separate the integrity of this poster from his post.

That doen't mean he should be keel hauled, but his motivations seem like fair game to me, to the degree that his SD upconversion observations seem to fly in the face of nearly everyone.

Top left of his homepage.

often has Blu-ray player ads right on top

he sells a lot of Pioneer Elite Blu-ray players and plasma HDTV's too

Home
HD DVD players
Blu-ray players
Flat panel TV's
DLP RPT
DVD players
MP3 players
Blu-ray player
Receivers
Accessories
Remote control
Flat panel mounts
HD video switch
DIRECTV acess.
DIRECTV
Equipment
Programming
Sirius Radiohe often has Blu-ray player ads right on top

he sells a lot of Pioneer Elite Blu-ray players and plasma HDTV's too
Fine Kosty, but how are you supposed to know that by the link he offers from his own user area?

I'll post it again. (This guy is getting allot of free advertising today. :))

http://www.*********************/avstc.htm

Show me all the Blu-ray advertisements on this, Roberts "HOME PAGE!!!"

I fail to see what the big deal is here.

Does anyone here expect the Coca Cola Bottling Company to give two bottles of Pepsi away with every six pack of Coke as a show of fair mindedness? Please.

It is the height of hubris to think that everyone given all the facts will interpret them in the same way as you do and draw the same conclusions from them.

There is no need to demonize the man. There is even such a thing as small business owners supporting and selling a product because they happen to like it and believe in it. That does not necessarily mean that they are motivated by greed.

--Jerome

Talking about desperation and brainwashing...

This is from one of the most "influencial" HD-DVD dealers/"experts":



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9949841&&#post9949841

btw the way - I have both, a XA2 and a PS3. I think I don't need to argue how insanely ridiculous this statement/"sales strategy" is...

I REALLY NEED TO CALM DOWN NOW.
Umm, and why did you bring it here? It was being handled where it was.

I fail to see what the big deal is here.

Does anyone here expect the Coca Cola Bottling Company to give two bottles of Pepsi away with every six pack of Coke as a show of fair mindedness? Please.

It is the height of hubris to think that everyone given all the facts will interpret them in the same way as you do and draw the same conclusions from them.

There is no need to demonize the man. There is even such a thing as small business owners supporting and selling a product because they happen to like it and believe in it. That does not necessarily mean that they are motivated by greed.

--Jerome
This is not a bottling company, or at least according to some above, it's not supposed to be. ;)

It's supposed to be a retailer, more like a 7-11, you know, selling any soda that will sell.

No, but I think you get my point. :)

I have no expectation of objectivity from electronics dealers. If I need that sort of information I know where to find it. I don't require that the products dealers stock and sell reflect an all-inclusive technological worldview. As a business owner the choice of what products to carry and support is entirely within his purview. I don't see any reason to beat the guy up over that.

--Jerome

could we move on please?

No, but I think you get my point. :)

I have no expectation of objectivity from electronics dealers. If I need that sort of information I know where to find it. I don't require that the products dealers stock and sell reflect an all-inclusive technological worldview. As a business owner the choice of what products to carry and support is entirely within his purview. I don't see any reason to beat the guy up over that.

--Jerome
Well, I'm going to guess that you've read my posts and found that we are in agreement here.

It's the B.S. that he dropped, that is the issue at hand. That was more than just supporting his favorite team.


I'm ready to move on, Mark.

Jerome, you're welcome to the last word. :)

That is one possible interpretation, and apparently the one you favor. It's equally possible that he was initially confused about this very specific capability, and after being called on it, did some technical research; finally returning to clarify/perform damage control. In any event, you're a long way from providing sufficient evidence to prove that his actions were a deliberate attempt to disparage a competing product.

You would concede that it was at least an erroneous disparagement of a competing product?

You would concede that it was at least an accidental disparagement of a competing product?

In a legal sense, there's no such thing, because disparagement can only result from a deliberate intent. In this case, the notion that his statements were literally "injurious" to AVC, is patently ludicrous........that is, unless you could provide evidence that this specific technical point in an extremely arcane discussion of respective software capabilities on an Internet forum negatively effected sales of Hi def optical media using the AVC encode by some quantifiable criteria. :rolleyes:

In a legal sense, there's no such thing, because disparagement can only result from a deliberate intent. In this case, the notion that his statements were literally "injurious" to AVC, is patently ludicrous........that is, unless you could provide evidence that this specific technical point in an extremely arcane discussion of respective software capabilities on an Internet forum negatively effected sales of Hi def optical media using the AVC encode by some quantifiable criteria. :rolleyes:

From the point of view of AVScience, the reputation of the AVC codec could have been injured, in a false manner. The statement was made deliberately, the content erroneous (whether or not due to ignorance) - it was disparagement.

Hi Talk. Glad to hear that Sony is still standing by those numbers. Based on the most rosey estimates of current sales (vgcharts), that would indicate they need to ship 1 million units a week for the next 4 weeks. Can't wait to see how this plays out.Bear in mind Sony is claiming units shipped, while vgcharts seems to be tracking units sold.
Is it correct that Sony is providing 250,000 PS3s for the EU launch? If not, do you know what their launch stock pile is for this launch?I believe I've seen 1M units referenced in multiple places.

You forgot to include the full title of Dean Takahashi's piece.

Game Console Forecast From IDC: Nintendo Wii On TopI left that out because the Wii is essentially irrelevant to next-gen video formats.
These numbers are already hopelessly optimistic in favor of the PS3, why try to spin it? Sony isn't anywhere near the sales numbers they need to achieve the predictions above.How do you figure? Sony says they'll be at 6M units shipped by the end of this month, or 4.5 months after launch during a period of highly-constrained supply. Why would the not be able to ship another 6M units in the next nine months when production volumes are clearly much higher and when the game library will be far more compelling?

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/419/picture3gc8.gif

It's clear to me that the red line ends higher than the blue line.
29% PS3 > 28% HD Player/Recorder
Therefore, the red line is supposed to represent PS3 sales.
That's totally inconsistent with the slope, however. Clearly the PS3 has greatly outsold all standalone HD devices, hence it must be the blue line.
Sure is a wacky chart. Hard to believe they get paid for putting these charts out.Agreed, this could have used some touch-up.

From the point of view of AVScience, the reputation of the AVC codec could have been injured, in a false manner. The statement was made deliberately, the content erroneous (whether or not due to ignorance) - it was disparagement.

The legal standard requires proof of injury. "Could" doesn't cut it.

Jerome, you're welcome to the last word. :)
Ok. Let's see. I just wrapped up work for the day, which began at about 4:45AM this morning. On second throught, maybe not. I am waiting on a call back from an engineer I am working with on a technical problem in our technology lab. So there may be more left to do today, though secretly I hope not since I'm starting to get a little tired.

I think overall this has been a very good discussion. There has been more give and take over the past several pages than I have ever seen in this particular thread before. Though I admit that I have not been a regular visitor to this discussion in the past.

It was especially nice to bump into Todd (rto), who I consider to be a very good friend. We lost touch with one another near the end of 2005 because I left the forum for quite some time. It always helps to rekindle old friendships, which reminds me of the true value of this community. I haven't spoken with another AVS Forum friend in a while, Robert Wood, whom I've known for several years now. Perhaps I will give him a call tonight.

Other than that I am trying to unwind and put things into perspective. When I think of all the things in life that demand my attention, the things that worry me the most, that are truely important, that might even be worth fighting over...well, the significance of which codec is better or which format is better or who might be getting away with what just crumbles to dust in comparison. It may be more of a concern to me tomorrow, but not tonight.

Sorry for the OT post.

Enjoy.

--Jerome

Very interesting article....hard to pick out what to quote but the ending is probably the most interesting. I don't think Howard Stringer is long for his current job.

Internal Turmoil at Sony Uncovered
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=6342


Some of the blame can be placed on Stringer though. He decided not to have a permanent residence in Japan and instead lives out of a hotel when in the country. He does, however, own homes in England and New York. "Mr. Stringer has no background and he's not in Japan managing the day-to-day," said Fitch Ratings analyst Tatsuya Mizuno. "Sony's DNA is in electronics...so the top management needs to understand what's going on there."

Stringer acknowledges that even a token residence in Japan would go a long way in promoting a synergy within his company. "[I should have] faked it better -- I mean that seriously," said Stringer. "I should've put the flag up the flagpole and said here's my residence in downtown Tokyo -- I'm here! -- even if it's less practical than living where I live, and much less comfortable and friendly."

So, living in Tokyo is "less practical" and "much less comfortable and friendly" than living in England or New York. Ouch, one can almost feel the Japan staff cringing. Japanese firms do have a sort of national pride. I agree that whatever other mistakes he made, this is the one that will get him replaced. His ouster would be good news for Sony and, therefore, good news for Blu-ray. At the very least, downtown Tokyo may get even chillier for him.

Well, I'm going to guess that you've read my posts and found that we are in agreement here.

It's the B.S. that he dropped, that is the issue at hand. That was more than just supporting his favorite team.


I'm ready to move on, Mark.

Jerome, you're welcome to the last word. :)
Not speaking for Jerome or Robert, Robert explained his error and apologized. If some SD hadn't brought that here, you would have known already, if you knew about it at all.

Sorry, I was just ribbin' ya'.

Awhile back, after reading a slanted post, I checked out his homepage. There you will clearly see that he is HD DVD only.


That is 100% wrong. We feature BD players on our home page.

In fact, we are one of the largest BD dealers in the US. Panasonic features my company with a hot link to our site as their recommended on-line authorized nationwide dealer. For our distributor we sold more Elite BD players than all USA independent dealers added together.

We are a very large BD dealer. Patrick is correct. Further, the gross profit percent and gross dollars per sale are infinitely higher than HD DVD. I recommend HD DVD to most (not all) customers because it is a better value to the customer.

I personally and professionally support HD DVD over BD because small, medium and large DVD replicators can easily produce HD DVDs and can not do so with BD. And BD50 is very difficult and expensive to produce.

My feelings are why force the public to pay extremely high prices for HD hardware and put thousands of DVD replicators out of business and for what advantage other than the profit of a few very big companies.

-Robert

We are a very large BD dealer. Patrick is correct. Further, the gross profit percent and gross dollars per sale are infinitely higher than HD DVD.

If the margins are much higher, then you can give bigger discounts, right? :)

My feelings are why force the public to pay extremely high prices for HD hardware and put thousands of DVD replicators out of business and for what advantage other than the profit of a few very big companies.

Noone is forcing the public to go that way. It just looks like they're going there because they choose to. :)

I didn't pay any more for my BD hardware than I did for my HDDVD hardware... and I'm paying the same, if not cheaper, prices on my BD software.

And DVD is cheaper and easier to replicate than either HD format!

And it looks just or almost as good upscaled too!

Why invest in either HD format then?

Plus BD50 is science fiction!

wco81 ^ I love your contributions to AVS Forum. You are a very wise ... guy.

-Robert

Awhile back, after reading a slanted post, I checked out his homepage. There you will clearly see that he is HD DVD only.

IIRC, I saw a BD ad by VE on AVS sometime back.

We are a very large BD dealer. Patrick is correct. Further, the gross profit percent and gross dollars per sale are infinitely higher than HD DVD.


INFINITELY higher?! So, your HD DVD gross profit is <= 0%?

You better be selling them something else too. :p


I recommend HD DVD to most (not all) customers because it is a better value to the customer.


What's the old saying? Let's hope they don't come back and thank you one day when the store is closed. :eek:

Gary

I recommend HD DVD to most (not all) customers because it is a better value to the customer.This is a serious question. Do you ask them what movies they like or let them know which studios support each before making a recommendation?

--Darin

And DVD is cheaper and easier to replicate than either HD format!

And it looks just or almost as good upscaled too!

Why invest in either HD format then?

Plus BD50 is science fiction!You forgot one of Robert's old favorites, "The Samsung can't play BD50s!"

Ahhh, memories.

It's really odd that none of the various review sites have mentioned that BDs only look as good as upconverted DVDs. Is there a conspiracy?

wco81 ^ I love your contributions to AVS Forum. You are a very wise ... guy.

-Robert

Sorry, don't mean to offend a benefactor of the site.

This is a serious question. Do you ask them what movies they like or let them know which studios support each before making a recommendation?

--Darin

In our store we do so every single time.

-Robert

That is 100% wrong. We feature BD players on our home page.

In fact, we are one of the largest BD dealers in the US. Panasonic features my company with a hot link to our site as their recommended on-line authorized nationwide dealer. For our distributor we sold more Elite BD players than all USA independent dealers added together.

We are a very large BD dealer. Patrick is correct. Further, the gross profit percent and gross dollars per sale are infinitely higher than HD DVD. I recommend HD DVD to most (not all) customers because it is a better value to the customer.

I personally and professionally support HD DVD over BD because small, medium and large DVD replicators can easily produce HD DVDs and can not do so with BD. And BD50 is very difficult and expensive to produce.

My feelings are why force the public to pay extremely high prices for HD hardware and put thousands of DVD replicators out of business and for what advantage other than the profit of a few very big companies.

-Robert
Well I hope you read ALL my posts regarding you, Robert because you will find some, apparently much deserved praise for your customer service.

That said, the link you provided AVS members, when after you click your name and then click "Visit DTV TiVo Dealer's homepage!," directs you to an HD DVD only (besides Tivo) page.

Yes, I admit that the statement you responded to was incorrect and I apologize. But your "homepage" was not the easiest to navigate. Is it not standard to have the "Home" link somewhere near the top? The top of your page is basically a big, bright HD DVD logo. You have to scroll down aways just to find the Home link. Until today, I never noticed it and just figured you were a small time op, selling HD DVD and Tivo. My mistake.

Still...

Your "homepage" has nothing Blu-ray on it. Of course you have a right to support who you want. I've said that many times, in this thread regarding you.

But why DOES your "homepage" link direct people to that, particular page?

What's the old saying? Let's hope they don't come back and thank you one day when the store is closed. :eek:

Gary

I have never hear of that "old saying" . Is it one of your original ones?

I don't think your saying will come true in my situation. I have enjoyed a very successful career in senior executive management for large corporations till I founded *********************

We celebrated our 14th year in November and are looking forward to many more successful years in the CE business. HDTV has taken off and we are lucky to be in a very affluent community surrounded by many more very affluent towns. Not sure why but we have very few competitors in our area so our local business is very good.

Plus as you all ready know, we mirror some of our B&M business on-line so our volume is quite high for a single store retailer.

Look guys why don't we move on and post news worthy technical and industry information and cut out the personal attacks. They don't serve you or your cause.

-Robert

My feelings are why force the public to pay extremely high prices for HD hardwareThe PS3 and Samsung are not "extremely highly priced". Others soon to follow. Toshiba is selling cheaply because they're forced to (being in a weak position). Not because of some angelic purpose. And of course no one is "forced" to buy anything.

put thousands of DVD replicators out of businessDo you have any actual evidence for this?

for what advantageBandwidth and capacity. Check King Kong and lossless audio for an example.

I don't like the idea of people profiting by screwing me out of 20 GB of capacity and 18 Mbps of bandwidth.

Well I hope you read ALL my posts regarding you, Robert because you will find some, apparently much deserved praise for your customer service.

That said, the link you provided AVS members, when after you click your name and then click "Visit DTV TiVo Dealer's homepage!," directs you to an HD DVD only (besides Tivo) page.

Yes, I admit that the statement you responded to was incorrect and I apologize. But your "homepage" was not the easiest to navigate. Is it not standard to have the "Home" link somewhere near the top? The top of your page is basically a big, bright HD DVD logo. You have to scroll down aways just to find the Home link. Until today, I never noticed it and just figured you were a small time op, selling HD DVD and Tivo. My mistake.

Still...

Your "homepage" has nothing Blu-ray on it. Of course you have a right to support who you want. I've said that many times, in this thread regarding you.

But why DOES your "homepage" link direct people to that, particular page?


Thank you. I pride myself on delivering the highest level of customer service and support.

The page my profile linked to was set up in 2003 when I became a member and sponsor. If you had not pointed it out to me it likely would have stayed that way for many more years. I fixed it so it points to my home page, which is a far better design and function.

So if you look at my real home page (thanks to you is now fixed in my profile) you will see BD player links.

Call me I owe you.

-Robert

Look guys why don't we move on and post news worthy technical and industry information and cut out the personal attacks. They don't serve you or your cause.

-Robert
I can't speak for everyone, but it was never personal for me. In fact, I was so battle weary from the whole Amir thing a few pages back that I didn't want to have much to do with this. I doubted the validity of the statements in question, but was hoping others would take the reigns. Then some people started in, but skated around my point about the homepage. I wasn't havin' it. It was more of a matter of clarification for me.

You've got an agenda. No big deal to me; said that right from the start. But you do understand, of course that bold statements like the ones reported here are subject to... ahhh... scrutiny. ;)

That said, I AM ready to move on. WAY READY! I'm sure we ALL learned something from this. I could tell from early on that you are a nice guy and your fan base speaks volumes. As a retired bartender, I can tell things just by looking at that picture and I've never been wrong yet.

So... sorry you had to endure all of this. But we who enter the fray, are gonna' get banged up now and then. Today was just your turn. :)

Thank you. I pride myself on delivering the highest level of customer service and support.

The page my profile linked to was set up in 2003 when I became a member and sponsor. If you had not pointed it out to me it likely would have stayed that way for many more years. I fixed it so it points to my home page, which is a far better design and function.

So if you look at my real home page (thanks to you is now fixed in my profile) you will see BD player links.

Call me I owe you.

-Robert
Happy to be of service. ;)

Seriously, I'm glad that's cleared up.

And that's very gracious of you, but you don't owe me a thing. I gave you plenty of crap today. I'm just happy that some truth was uncovered, here.

Best wishes

As a retired bartender, I can tell things just by looking at that picture and I've never been wrong yet.


Bartending is one of the most effective unrecognized schools of human psychology that exists, for anyone blessed with the proper set of intuitive proclivities...... And yeah Sketcha, I'd agree that Robert is a kind, decent man. ;)

when people are done with the campfire sing along, can someone explain the updated Amazon sales numbers to me?

Is http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/ or Amazon messing with their algorithms again or has BD really gone through the roof in the last 12 hours?

It looks like Amazon dropped prices considerably on older titles, which in turn has helped raise sales volume of newer titles which stayed the same price.

It would be very nice if this was a long term strategy - price catalog titles lower and just be happy you were able to double dip some, then make your real money on new releases.


As far as whether or not the numbers are real, this is the kind of volume I would expect with the PS3 out there - I just don't see how it could occur over such a short period of time.

It's called half off that started today.

Holy moly, this could be doomsday ringing for HD DVD. Wonder how cheap i'll be able to get an XA1 for if/when that happens. I definitely want at least one to play Frankenstein with...

KoH BD is currently #18, Xmen 3 # 19, Casino Royale #20, Black Hawk Down #22, and Ice Age: The Meltdown #30...

It's called half off that started today.

Holy moly, this could be doomsday ringing for HD DVD. Wonder how cheap i'll be able to get an XA1 for if/when that happens. I definitely want at least one to play Frankenstein with...

KoH BD is currently #18, Xmen 3 # 19, Casino Royale #20, Black Hawk Down #22, and Ice Age: The Meltdown #30...

What's the half off promotion? Any details?

Save 50% on Blu-ray DVDs

This is the sale you've been waiting for to build your new Blu-ray DVD collection. Dozens of titles, all Blu-ray, are 50% off, so stock up now and save. See more in our our Blu-ray store.

Discussed:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=815574
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=815823
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=815711

Bartending is one of the most effective unrecognized schools of human psychology that exists, for anyone blessed with the proper set of intuitive proclivities...
...such as the ability to properly "prepare" the subject under study with a number of delectably dry martinis graced with Bombay Sapphire and just the slightest hint of extra dry vermouth. ;)

--Jerome

I would wager that most people here have a genuine understanding of the basic rules of civil discourse.Sure, but in my opinion I think that honesty is even more important than being nice. In other words I think you may be holding the virtue of civility to highly while not caring enough about the virtue of honesty.


Some BD supporters should look deeply into their souls to make sure they aren't simply prejudiced against HD and its proponents. IMOAnd in my opinion some HD DVD supporters need to think long and hard about whether it really makes sense to defend Amir when he bashes a competing video codec. For instance are there any posters that are actually for that?


This is from one of the most "influencial" HD-DVD dealers/"experts":

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9949841&&#post9949841Surprising, I know Robert has never been a supporter of Blu-ray but I never knew that he had such a negative opinion of it. Personally I think that two calibrated 1080p displays with 1:1 pixel mapping would easily prove that statement wrong in a fair test.

It is a sale. Ie. a blip on the sales curve. A very nice blip, for the Blu-ray crew, at least. Of course, the scale on a couple of those graphs will be messed for a while when things go back to normal... :) Will be interesting to see if the sales hold up for the whole week...

Sure, but in my opinion I think that honesty is even more important than being nice. In other words I think you may be holding the virtue of civility to highly while not caring enough about the virtue of honesty.
Interesting how a discussion of civil discourse leads you to an ad hominem attack on my personal values.

I think that you and I are about as far apart on this subject as two people can be and I accept that. Why you decided to bring this topic back to the public forum after I went to some lengths to contact you privately about our differences is something of a mystery to me.

You want to argue that I don't care enough about honesty. Fine. History is littered with examples of people who tried to hide their misdeeds behind a cloak of virtue. Your considerable posting record suggests to me that you routinely prize conflict and confrontation of a personal nature above all else.

Have the last word if you must, but I won't be commenting on this particular subject again.

--Jerome

And that's very gracious of you, but you don't owe me a thing.Can I have the Pioneer BDP-S1/PRO-FHD1 combo he was going to give you?!? :D

I won't accept that they are mutually exclusive Richard. From where I sit that is merely another rationalization for bad behavior.

I think the record shows that you and I are about as far apart on this subject as two people can be and I accept that. Why you decided to bring this topic back to the public forum after I went to some lengths to contact you privately about our differences is something of a mystery to me.

You want to argue that I don't care enough about honesty. Fine. History is littered with examples of people who tried to hide their misdeeds behind a cloak of virtue. Your considerable posting record suggests to me that occasionaly you prize conflict and confrontation of a personal nature above all else.

Have the last word if you must, but I won't be commenting on this particular subject again.

--Jerome

And pre-pending "Just to mention..." before an onslaught is no better than going after somebody confrontationally and then tacking a couple of smilies on at the end,

Ugh - I bought a Tosh HDA2 last week and signed up for Rogers Direct Video online

I added about 25 titles to my list - about 18 of which were HD DVD

I received 4 SD DVD's as my first round of discs
Returned them and I have 3 more SD DVD's on the way - dammit - I want HD DVD!

I'm not sure what the deal is here - am I helping the HD cause by listing my demand for the content? Will there be a bulk order of HD DVD due to consumers listing it as a preference on their Ziplist?

I hope something happens soon - I am not prepared to buy much content at all - I want to rent until things are a little more sorted out.

Bear in mind Sony is claiming units shipped, while vgcharts seems to be tracking units sold.
Talkstr8t has nailed something that I think has been lost on many posters.

CE companies typically release sales to dealers numbers but many industry reports are counting sales to consumers. In relatively new products such as the PS3, a very significant number of products sold to dealers are used to fill the retail pipeline and won't actually sell-through for some time.

Everyone please be careful to clarify before throwing statistics around

Boycott both of them until they decide on a single format and the prices come down! The actors look better in 480p anyway....who needs to see wrinkles, freckles, and other blemishes!

Sure, but in my opinion I think that honesty is even more important than being nice. In other words I think you may be holding the virtue of civility to highly while not caring enough about the virtue of honesty.


And in my opinion some HD DVD supporters need to think long and hard about whether it really makes sense to defend Amir when he bashes a competing video codec. For instance are there any posters that are actually for that?


Surprising, I know Robert has never been a supporter of Blu-ray but I never knew that he had such a negative opinion of it. Personally I think that two calibrated 1080p displays with 1:1 pixel mapping would easily prove that statement wrong in a fair test.
All this has been talked out. No need to bring it up again.

All this has been talked out. No need to bring it up again.
I think you're right.

No one has refuted the points made here about the Amir/codec debacle. I believe the point is made. No need to...

http://www.cigarbid.com/auction/picpost/27805.gif

Boycott both of them until they decide on a single format and the prices come down! The actors look better in 480p anyway....who needs to see wrinkles, freckles, and other blemishes!

The prices won't come down by boycotting - both sides will lose
remember SACD and DVD Audio??

I won't tell anyone to go out and buy h/w or media, but if no one does, nothing will move forward

My personal input to this situation?

I bought a Tosh HDA2 - so there is some hardware support
I have bought 3 HD DVD's - so a small drop of software support
I have listed HD DVD for the preference on my 30 disc list on Rental online

That's about all I am willing to do at this point

debacle? How about fooforaw? bloviation?

The prices won't come down by boycotting - both sides will lose
remember SACD and DVD Audio??

I won't tell anyone to go out and buy h/w or media, but if no one does, nothing will move forward
Absolutely correct!

I would be thrilled if HD DVD won, vs. DVD!

the PS2 has sold 35 million units to date. Where do you think most of them are gonna turn for upgrades on their system?

Hard to say, since Sony's still dumping cash into producing it.

If you can't win one generation's war, might as well win the last one. :D

It's called half off that started today.

Sounds like liquidation sale. Is Amazon getting out of Blu-ray ? ;)

I think you're right.

No one has refuted the points made here about the Amir/codec debacle. I believe the point is made. No need to...


Nobody's refuting it simply because we want peace. But if you want me to address it, I certainly will, and hopefully I can do it in a non-inflammatory way.

The fact is, there is a small group of people that have an unhealthy obsession with Amir. He is their white whale, and they are pursuing him to the end's of the earth with their smear campaign. To them, no matter what Amir does, it's always seen as duplicitous and deceitful.

It's not just that they characterize him this way, it's far more than that. They have an anti-Amir filter that colors their world view. But it's important to note that every time they feed their obsession, they believe they are doing the right thing. I think it's important to point out they they truly believe what they are doing is right. Further, these are not bad people, some of them I have a great deal of respect for. But they have a severe anti-Amir bias that distorts everything they think about what Amir writes.

In this instance, a person asked Amir to compare codecs. So he writes a rather long and technical response, pointing out the difference between codecs, and why he thinks his codec is at an advantage.

During the course of that long and technical explanation, he appears to have misstated one of the technical differences. He said that AVC can't do 1 pixel something-or-another, when he should have said that a compressionist can't force AVC to do 1 pixel something-or-another. So there is a difference between the codecs, but his explanation wasn't 100% accurate.

Now the people with the anti-Amir world view, (again, some of which I highly respect), they see this as a sure sign of treachery. They believe it's impossible for him to have simply misspoke here. If he didn't get every single detail right in an off the cuff technical discussion of the two codecs, its a sure sign that Amir is lying.

Other people look at this and think it was a detail that wasn't exactly correct, but that's understandable considering how technical the discussion is. At any rate, why would he post something he knew not to be true, when he knew that other experts were reading it? Even if you don't think he is honest, surely you think he is smart. Why would he set himself up like that?

The most likely answer is that it wasn't a big deal, he made a small misstatement, and someone else corrected it. Now if you are predisposed to assassinate Amir's character, you won't view the event this way. If you are a bit more objective, you can see that is the most likely explanation.

This example, to me, is more about the Amir stalkers than it is about Amir. I can easily see how a person discussing something so complex as the difference between codecs could make a misstatement. So that doesn't surprise me. What is more interesting is the reaction to it.

Once again, I want to point out that these people that are obsessed with Amir, they are not bad people. Many of them I otherwise respect. But their focus on Amir, and the distorted way they interpret everything he does, it just isn't healthy.

Sounds like liquidation sale. Is Amazon getting out of Blu-ray ? ;)

Posted by another HD-DVD fan,


"There is a HD DVD equivalent of the Amazon Blu-ray sale, only the HD DVDs are free rather than 1/2 price and hence don't figure in DVD sales statistics.

"US purchasers of the Toshiba HD DVD players such as the A2 can get 5 free HD DVDs "


Sound like clearence of both then, but HD-DVD give them away :D

Sounds like liquidation sale. Is Amazon getting out of Blu-ray ? ;)
Yeah, because their clearly not selling like HD DVD. ;)

Sounds like liquidation sale. Is Amazon getting out of Blu-ray ? ;)Well HD DVD fanboys would certainly know what a liquidation sale sounds like. Sounds like a blowout sale to me.

Now the people with the anti-Amir world view, (again, some of which I highly respect), they see this as a sure sign of treachery. They believe it's impossible for him to have simply misspoke here. If he didn't get every single detail right in an off the cuff technical discussion of the two codecs, its a sure sign that Amir is lying.

......and the only people who would fully comprehend the difference; those who's opinion might potentially be swayed by such minute technical distinctions, are other individuals with a similar level of expertise who would recognize his error anyway. Accusing him of deliberate deception, and or "disparagement" is the very definition of irony.

Nobody's refuting it simply because we want peace. But if you want me to address it, I certainly will, and hopefully I can do it in a non-inflammatory way.
And you did an excellent job as usual, skogan. Thanks.

The fact is, there is a small group of people that have an unhealthy obsession with Amir. He is their white whale, and they are pursuing him to the end's of the earth with their smear campaign. To them, no matter what Amir does, it's always seen as duplicitous and deceitful.

It's not just that they characterize him this way, it's far more than that. They have an anti-Amir filter that colors their world view. But it's important to note that every time they feed their obsession, they believe they are doing the right thing. I think it's important to point out they they truly believe what they are doing is right. Further, these are not bad people, some of them I have a great deal of respect for. But they have a severe anti-Amir bias that distorts everything they think about what Amir writes.
I could see that.

In this instance, a person asked Amir to compare codecs. So he writes a rather long and technical response, pointing out the difference between codecs, and why he thinks his codec is at an advantage.

During the course of that long and technical explanation, he appears to have misstated one of the technical differences. He said that AVC can't do 1 pixel something-or-another, when he should have said that a compressionist can't force AVC to do 1 pixel something-or-another. So there is a difference between the codecs, but his explanation wasn't 100% accurate.
Sorry skogan, but his statement was more definitive than that.

In no case does it go down to a single pixel as VC-1 does.
Other people look at this and think it was a detail that wasn't exactly correct, but that's understandable considering how technical the discussion is. At any rate, why would he post something he knew not to be true, when he knew that other experts were reading it? Even if you don't think he is honest, surely you think he is smart. Why would he set himself up like that?
I think he is both smart AND honest. I believe he did, simply misspeak. But I don't believe he copped to it. His clarification sounded more like damage control to me. Also, I'm going to ASSume that when you use the word "you," you were not referring to me. You may recall several of my previous posts on this, included some nice words for Amir.

The most likely answer is that it wasn't a big deal, he made a small misstatement, and someone else corrected it. Now if you are predisposed to assassinate Amir's character, you won't view the event this way. If you are a bit more objective, you can see that is the most likely explanation.
Again, I don't think it was intentional. What was intentional was the attempt to diminish the capabilities of his competition and further his own. In a public forum, IMO, that is a slippery slope. And you can see where it got him.

EDIT: And if you're going to speak on your competition's product in anything other than a positive manner, as an insider, with authority, you are going to be held to a higher standard than the rest of us... and you'd better be right!

And IMO, that's the way it SHOULD BE.

Otherwise you'd better check your sources or just decline to comment on the abilites of or lack thereof, your competition's product.

This example, to me, is more about the Amir stalkers than it is about Amir. I can easily see how a person discussing something so complex as the difference between codecs could make a misstatement. So that doesn't surprise me. What is more interesting is the reaction to it.
It was pretty gnarly. But a lot of this was about censorship.

Once again, I want to point out that these people that are obsessed with Amir, they are not bad people. Many of them I otherwise respect. But their focus on Amir, and the distorted way they interpret everything he does, it just isn't healthy.
Agreed.

First off welcome to the forum and though I don't agree with your initial post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9932769&&#post9932769) for someone who already owned an Xbox 360 the HD DVD drive was the cheaper HD option. As for the chart it looks completely wrong and it was probably made a while ago. Also in general the Xbox 360 HD DVD drive is not going to be as big a factor as the PS3 in the format war because while the former requires an additional purchase while the latter requires none. This is one of the main factors why Blu-ray is outselling HD DVD 2 to 1 at the moment (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9643356&&#post9643356) though the greater studio support that Blu-ray (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html) has compared to HD DVD (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html) helps as well.

I have a hard time with this logic. Since the add-on was an option I chose to buy it DID in fact only cost me 199.99 to enjoy hi-def movies...not 600. I could have easily bought a Toshiba...or even a PS3.
Second...saying the add-on may not be a factor is too soon for you to call. As time goes on more and more families will be owning HDTV's. There are already millions of xbox owners. When it comes time for them to decide if they want to purchase a hi-def player....who is to say they won't opt for the cheapest option available?

(Note:...my arguement lies with already existing 360 owners.) I know if you don't have a 360 now then it would be the same as purchasing a PS# but...as I said....10 million of us already had the box before the player came out. So to us....its an OPTION.)

By the way....thank you for the greeting. Intelligent dialogue is always welcome with me. (I do my best not to sound stupid...I really try...lolol.)

......and the only people who would fully comprehend the difference; those who's opinion might potentially be swayed by such minute technical distinctions, are other individuals with a similar level of expertise who would recognize his error anyway. Accusing him of deliberate deception, and or "disparagement" is the very definition of irony.
Well you do have ME on your beloved "disparagement" rto, but, obviously you are referring to someone else on the "deliberate deception" issue.

BTW, did you ever come up with an alternative word or phrase?

I definitely feel he fortuitously made a false statement, while attempting to diminish the abilities of his competition's product to thereby further the abilities of his own.

Did you find a better word for that yet?

Well you do have ME on your beloved "disparagement" rto, but, obviously you are referring to someone else on the "deliberate deception" issue.

BTW, did you ever come up with an alternative word or phrase?

I definitely feel he fortuitously made a false statement, while attempting to diminish the abilities of his competition's product to thereby further the abilities of his own.

Did you find a better word for that yet?

"beloved" lol

I copied this from post #5958, where I responded to your original request:

So, in this instance, I think your use of the term "disparagement" is wholly inappropriate. Perhaps it wouldn't be, in another illustration you might or might not care to provide. BTW, ( since you asked ) If I wasn't feeling charitable, I might suggest that Amir was guilty of attempting to obfuscate the capabilities of an alternative codec.......through a lack of sufficient specificity.

Would anyone have been shocked and dismayed by this putative, infinitesimally technical "shortcoming" of AVC? If left unchallenged, would hordes of Hi def obsessives have hurried home after work, to either put all of their AVC encoded discs on e-bay, or burn them en mass? If they'd actually made the awful error of viewing a disc encoded with AVC, would the only means of redeeming their honor have been seppuku with a dull plastic knife? How many lurkers or members really understood exactly and precisely WTF they were talking about, to begin with? This entire line of discussion has been much ado about nothing! IMHO, of course.

Sounds like liquidation sale. Is Amazon getting out of Blu-ray ? ;)
:cool:

Interesting how a discussion of civil discourse leads you to an ad hominem attack on my personal values.For someone who doesn't mind criticizing others you certainly did not take my comment well. I was simply saying that you seem more concerned with whether people are being polite than whether they are being honest. In my personal opinion honesty is more important than politeness. Just to make this perfectly clear I am just stating my personal opinion about that.


I think that you and I are about as far apart on this subject as two people can be and I accept that. Why you decided to bring this topic back to the public forum after I went to some lengths to contact you privately about our differences is something of a mystery to me.No offense but that PM you sent me was basically just a long rant against me which didn't ask me anything. Honestly I understand you don't like it when people question Amir and you have told me that time (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7968748&&#post7968748) and time again (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9939889&&#post9939889). I know your opinions quite well and I just don't agree with them. That's all.


You want to argue that I don't care enough about honesty.No, I said that you seem to care more about people being polite than about people being honest. In my personal opinion, just my personal opinion, I think that honesty is more important that politeness.


History is littered with examples of people who tried to hide their misdeeds behind a cloak of virtue.Exactly, though your probably thinking of this a lot differently than I am.


Your considerable posting record suggests to me that you routinely prize conflict and confrontation of a personal nature above all else.For someone so civil you sure do make a lot of accusations and I am pretty sure that a comment like that one is against forum rules (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=657194). Also you judge me unfairly if you really believe that about me.


Have the last word if you must, but I won't be commenting on this particular subject again.Thanks.

I have a hard time with this logic. Since the add-on was an option I chose to buy it DID in fact only cost me 199.99 to enjoy hi-def movies...not 600.

By that logic it cost me ZERO dollars to enjoy BD HD movies since I bought a PS3.

Um, if Amir wasn't making indefensible statements, people wouldn't be jumping on him.

He's the Ahab if anything.

As for ad hominems, you can't apply it to things like values or ideas. It's applied to people, not ideas.

"beloved" lol

I copied this from post #5958, where I responded to your original request:

So, in this instance, I think your use of the term "disparagement" is wholly inappropriate. Perhaps it wouldn't be, in another illustration you might or might not care to provide. BTW, ( since you asked ) If I wasn't feeling charitable, I might suggest that Amir was guilty of attempting to obfuscate the capabilities of an alternative codec.......through a lack of sufficient specificity.
So you gave up then.

Because my response in #5962 was...

That's not good enough.

He flat-out used a false statement, categorically in a comparison between his and his competition's product with the intent to diminish the abilities of the competitions product and thereby further those of his own.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
ob·fus·cate /ˈɒbfəˌskeɪt, ɒbˈfʌskeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ob-fuh-skeyt, ob-fuhs-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing.
1. to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
2. to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information.
3. to darken.
Now I hope you didn't mean to insinuate he was attempting confusion. Even if you take "to darken" as the meaning for obfuscate, it doesn't wash.

Now can you tell me what is wrong with Merriam-Webster? We are typing in English, after all, aren't we?

disparage

Main Entry:
dis·par·age Listen to the pronunciation of disparage
Pronunciation:
\di-ˈsper-ij, -ˈspa-rij\
Function:
transitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
-aged; -ag·ing
Etymology:
Middle English, to degrade by marriage below one's class, disparage, from Anglo-French desparager to marry below one's class, from des- dis- + parage equality, lineage, from per peer
Date:
14th century

1 : to lower in rank or reputation : degrade 2 : to depreciate by indirect means (as invidious comparison) : speak slightingly about

And remember now, how it works is, if any one of the definitions fit, the word can be used. In this case, both work

"1 : to lower in rank" As in between the 2 codecs involved. That works perfectly

"2 : to depreciate by indirect means (as invidious comparison)..." This works as well, no?

However, I'm going to say that any of these would have worked, in its stead. They're all certainly better than obfuscate. Pick one and let's move on.

detract
pan
run down
knock
pooh-pooh

How ironic that one side of this Amir discussion was largely about stalking and picking nits to a fault.

By that logic it cost me ZERO dollars to enjoy BD HD movies since I bought a PS3.
NICE! :)

That's right! The HD DVD camp LOVES to call that thing just a "gaming machine," after all. ;)

I have a hard time with this logic. Since the add-on was an option I chose to buy it DID in fact only cost me 199.99 to enjoy hi-def movies...not 600.Sure, assuming that you have an Xbox 360 it is an additional $200. On the other hand though it costs nothing to add Blu-ray playback to the PS3. As such the number of people who use the PS3 for Blu-ray playback is going to be a lot higher than the number of people who use the Xbox 360 for HD DVD playback.


Second...saying the add-on may not be a factor is too soon for you to call.I only said that it won't be as big a factor in the format war as the PS3. Technically that is only a personal opinion though all evidence does seem to support it.


As time goes on more and more families will be owning HDTV's. There are already millions of xbox owners. When it comes time for them to decide if they want to purchase a hi-def player....who is to say they won't opt for the cheapest option available?Honestly price is an important factor but if that alone decided whether a HD video format sold well than you would be buying EVD discs at the moment. Also last I checked EVD players are selling for around $80 in China.


By the way....thank you for the greeting. Intelligent dialogue is always welcome with me. (I do my best not to sound stupid...I really try...lolol.)Always happy to welcome someone new to the forum and though it gets heated at times it is a great place for the latest news.

He flat-out used a false statement, categorically in a comparison between his and his competition's product with the intent to diminish the abilities of the competitions product and thereby further those of his own.

Unless you are in possession of a uniquely inerrant faculty of supernatural divination, you cannot know for a fact that's what he was doing, and your continued repetition of an assertion to the contrary, doesn't make it so. Fin.

Good on ya rto & skogan. You hit the mark square on.

...such as the ability to properly "prepare" the subject under study with a number of delectably dry martinis graced with Bombay Sapphire and just the slightest hint of extra dry vermouth. ;)

--Jerome

Heck, you don't need the good stuff for that! A few belts off the speed rack, and they're ready to spill their guts. :D BTW Jerome, see if you can rustle up a bottle of "Square One" vodka; stick it in the freezer, and try it neat. Cross my heart, and hope to die.

Again
It will cost an existing 10,000,000 Xbox360 owners under $200 to enjoy HD-DVD (optional)
It will cost every existing and future PS3 owner $800-$1000 (bundles) to enjoy BD (no choice)

Again
It will cost an existing 10,000,000 Xbox360 owners under $200 to enjoy HD-DVD (optional)
It will cost every existing and future PS3 owner $800-$1000 (bundles) to enjoy BD (no choice)

You mean:

It will cost future PS3 owner $500-$600 to enjoy BD
It will cost future xBox owner $600 to enjoy HD DVD

It will cost PS3 owners $0 to enjoy Blu-ray.
It will cost xBox owners $199 to enjoy HD DVD.

If you can't find a PS3 for $600 or less in the States, there is something wrong with you.

Unless you are in possession of a uniquely inerrant faculty of supernatural divination, you cannot know for a fact that's what he was doing
I certainly can and it only takes an average, mortal, human brain.

If we can't, at least agree on the premise you quoted, then we have nothing left to discuss.

I'll assume by your valediction that you are are finished, but you may have the last word, if you wish.

Take care

You mean:

It will cost future PS3 owner $500-$600 to enjoy BD
It will cost future xBox owner $600 to enjoy HD DVD

If you can't find a PS3 for $600 or less in the States, there is something wrong with you. Existing PS3 owners DO NOT need to spend more to enjoy Blu-ray.

Well, by the same logic, future XBox owners will need to spend ~$400 (cuz you don't NEED a premium XBox to add the HD DVD)
.......And existing XBOX owners ~$150.

just sayin'.

I guess accounting principles like "sunk costs" are beyond many here. Well, there's always the social sciences to pursue.

Well, by the same logic, future XBox owners will need to spend ~$400 (cuz you don't NEED a premium XBox to add the HD DVD)
.......And existing XBOX owners ~$150.

just sayin'.

Lets just stick to retail price. If not, I can get a PS3 for free with a purchase of certain tv models ...it goes on and on.

To equal the PS3 20GB model ($499), you need to buy:

$299 xBox Core
$199 HD DVD add-on
$90 20 GB hard drive add-on
$50 xbl service
$638 -total for first year
$688 -total for first two years ...so on and so forth.

To equal a PS3 60 GB model($599), you need to buy

$399 xbox premium
$88 wireless add-on
$199 HD DVD add-on
$50 xbl service
$736 total for first year
$786 total for first two years ...so on and so forth

For 4 year ownership:
$499-$599 PS3
$788-$886 xbox +++

+++expect several weeks of lost gaming time due to red circle of death malfunctions and additional unit(s) cost if malfunction happens outside of warranty period.

Which is cheaper and a smarter choice if you plan on using your game console and playing movies for 4 years?


PS3 comes with free PS3 network. With all that, you still can't equal the PS3 because you would be short of 40 GB and HDMI 1.3

Just sayin ...

Will existing XBOXs with the HD DVD attachments be able to output 720 or 1080 when HDCP is added to future HD DVD discs? If not, those future discs are gonna look just like regular DVDs on those machines. That would not be enjoyable.

"Sure, assuming that you have an Xbox 360 it is an additional $200. On the other hand though it costs nothing to add Blu-ray playback to the PS3. As such the number of people who use the PS3 for Blu-ray playback is going to be a lot higher than the number of people who use the Xbox 360 for HD DVD playback."

Richard....thats exactly the reason why all these stores still have PS3's laying around. There is no option with the PS3. (And yes...I did say that the 199 cheap arguement only flows with existing xbox owners but remember....there are already 10 million of us...;0)

Second....price is important...but I persoanlly avoid anything the Chinese do or make. (Just my preference.)

Also we need to take note of something.....this is all speculation but I feel it can be realistic:

Not only do we have 10 million POTENTIAL HD-DVD owners....we also are dealing with a system that is now over a year old which means......a price drop should be coming around the horizon pretty soon. So now we have a console who with the add-on (which by the way may also drop in proce) will still be cheaper than the PS3 (only becuz it is still so new Sony can't afford a price drop for a looong time.)

Again this is speculation but not out of the realm of reality. If and when this price drop occurs..(and we all know it eventually will) what then?
From 399.99 to 329.99 (lets just say) and the add-on from 199.99 to maybe 149.99. Now you are looking at the complete xbox package for $480 vs. $600.

The add-on may not be a factor now....but this future isa possiblity and Sony won't be able to do much about it for a while.
Just food for thought.

Lets just stick to retail price.

You need to understand the psychology of the consumer. This is not about dumb math.

For people who bought 360 - because of gaming - months (probably a year) back - the marginal cost is $200 and thats a low entry barrier to get into HD.

In the US people like low entry costs - even at the expense of recurring future costs. Look at the way cell phones/plans are sold here compared to Europe (Apple may be trying to change this with iPhone - we will see how far that goes).

I will start by saying that I prefer Blu-ray because of the higher capabilities.

I think the argument about the 360 add-on is overrated. I feel that the percentage of 360 owners buying an add-on would at least be equal to the PS3 owners who will simply use it for Blu-ray movies whether buying or renting. My opinion is based on friends who used there PS2 as DVD players. Even though you could play a DVD with the original XBox, you had to pay extra for the remote to allow to feature to work and no one I know was paying it. They used what they consider was free.

Just food for thought.You're more than six months too late. We heard this same crap from HD DVD supporters for almost a year. They said the PS3 wouldn't sell. They said PS3 owners wouldn't buy movies. They said the PS3 wouldn't help Blu-Ray sales. They said Sony was doomed and the Blu-Ray studios would switch by the end of 2006.

Then the PS3 came out and Blu-Ray sales shot up past HD DVD.

HD DVD supporters have been so wrong about so many things for so long that I can't imagine how many of them manage to continue posting here. The PS3 arguments are dead. It did exactly what Sony and the studios thought it would, which is one of the reasons why some studios signed on with BD in the first place.

I was going to go with a separate post for this, but it seems better suited to the "battle thread", so here goes...

Is anyone else finding the current state of events a bit unsettling? I'm speaking of the promotions that both HD DVD and Blu-ray are using to drive adoptions.

Toshiba is selling their HD DVD players with lots of free movies. When I bought my first DVD player in early 1998, I didn't get any free movies with it - and the player was twice the price in more-expensive dollars (i.e. inflation).

Sony, Fox, and others are selling Blu-ray discs at two-for-one prices, not just at Amazon this week, but in other stores in previous weeks (Fry's, Best Buy). I remember some mail-in promotions by Warner back in 1998 of a buy-3-get-one-free variety plus S&H, but there certainly weren't aggressive discounts like this.

I remember also the dot.com online sales boom starting in 1998-1999 and how various online stores positioned themselves with promotions to get you to buy from them -- and spending down their investment money in the process. It was an aggressive strategy that sent many of them out of business.

My point is this: These strategies are great for the consumer while they last, but they are definitely short term. I just hope that the businesses that are in this "to win" are also thinking about how to keep their operation afloat while they try to win market share with their particular formats and products.

Does anyone have good first-hand knowledge on the cost of these promotions to the companies that make them possible? Are the write-offs significant enough to put either format in jeopardy?

SCD

It will cost an existing 10,000,000 Xbox360 owners under $200 to enjoy HD-DVD (optional)Though that is technically accurate $199.99 is still a good amount for an optional accessory that can only play HD DVD movies. Add in the fact that most of the major studios support Blu-ray and it shouldn't be much of a surprise that only a small percentage of Xbox 360 owners have actually bought it. That amount could increase but than again so could the number of PS3 owners who buy Blu-ray movies.


It will cost every existing and future PS3 owner $800-$1000 (bundles) to enjoy BD (no choice)Come on WayneL this statement is just plain wrong. For one thing you completely discount the possibility of anyone buying a PS3 that is non-bundled, which is pretty easy to do now in NA. Secondly you act as though Blu-ray being included in the PS3 is a bad thing. As an actual PS3 owner I personally like the fact that the PS3 can use Blu-ray for both games and movies. Of course I can easily understand why HD DVD supporters aren't so happy about that fact.


Richard....thats exactly the reason why all these stores still have PS3's laying around.The PS3 is certainly in stock now for much of NA and the price has kept away a lot of potential buyers. As an actual PS3 owner though I don't buy into the doom and gloom that some people imagine/hope for it and I personally think things will improve for the PS3 as the year goes on.


Second....price is important...but I persoanlly avoid anything the Chinese do or make. (Just my preference.)Just a tip but I wouldn't say that in any of the HD DVD sections of the forum if I was you. A lot of HD DVD supporters are counting on cheap Chinese made HD DVD players to help HD DVD in the format war.


...
The add-on may not be a factor now....but this future isa possiblity and Sony won't be able to do much about it for a while.
Just food for thought.I don't know how things will go for the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on drive in the future but personally I think it had its greatest effect at launch when those that were most interested in it bought it. Though your theory is possible I truly don't think that the HD DVD add-on drive will become as big a factor in this format war as the PS3. Only time will tell for sure though.

The PS3 are doing so bad that the sale in Japan increased a whopping 108% this week. A new PS3 game got released in Japan - Gundam Musou. It just took one game. Imagine more and more games start coming out in the States.

http://www.vgcharts.org/japweekly.php

My point is this: These strategies are great for the consumer while they last, but they are definitely short term. I just hope that the businesses that are in this "to win" are also thinking about how to keep their operation afloat while they try to win market share with their particular formats and products.


SCD

I don't even know who's behind what. If there is a media sale is it the chain, the studio, Sony, BDA? How often do these entities act independently or as a group at this juncture?

The Amazon sale looks to a joint Fox/Sony promo, but I suspect Sony and Fox even share the same toothbrush these days.

The Toshiba give away isn't that special when you see that its the same pool of 25 titles that you were originally allowed three of. I'd rather get a $40-$50 lower player price and pick movies I really want, but they probably bought a ton of those specific titles.

The PS3 arguments are dead. It did exactly what Sony and the studios thought it would, which is one of the reasons why some studios signed on with BD in the first place.


Become the fourth place game console? :p

Hey they are from Amazon electronic store providers, but through them on Amazon the A2 is $345 and the XA2 $689. That's about the best I've seen so far.

This time I made sure they weren't used ;)

I guess accounting principles like "sunk costs" are beyond many here. Well, there's always the social sciences to pursue.Given that you stated (with relevant part highlighted):It will cost every existing and future PS3 owner $800-$1000 (bundles) to enjoy BD (no choice)it seems that the principals of "sunk costs" are beyond you, or you are purposely spinning. Those who purchased the PS3 because it was a game system they wanted with no concern for the movie playback part and then saw the current sale on the BDs at Amazon could choose to get into watching BDs for just the additional prices of the discs. Those with a Netflix account could just start getting BDs instead of DVDs.
I think the argument about the 360 add-on is overrated. I feel that the percentage of 360 owners buying an add-on would at least be equal to the PS3 owners who will simply use it for Blu-ray movies whether buying or renting. My opinion is based on friends who used there PS2 as DVD players. Even though you could play a DVD with the original XBox, you had to pay extra for the remote to allow to feature to work and no one I know was paying it. They used what they consider was free.Maybe I'm not following what you are saying, because your reasoning would seem to imply that more PS3 owners will choose to use the BD playback than XBOX360 owners will go out and buy the add-on.
The PS3 are doing so bad that the sale in Japan increased a whopping 108% this week. A new PS3 game got released in Japan - Gundam Musou. It just took one game. Imagine more and more games start coming out in the States.

http://www.vgcharts.org/japweekly.phpThe thing I was most surprised about was that the PS3 was listed as selling more game software for the week than the Wii did, just based on that one game.

--Darin

You're more than six months too late. We heard this same crap from HD DVD supporters for almost a year. They said the PS3 wouldn't sell. They said PS3 owners wouldn't buy movies. They said the PS3 wouldn't help Blu-Ray sales. They said Sony was doomed and the Blu-Ray studios would switch by the end of 2006.

Then the PS3 came out and Blu-Ray sales shot up past HD DVD.

HD DVD supporters have been so wrong about so many things for so long that I can't imagine how many of them manage to continue posting here. The PS3 arguments are dead. It did exactly what Sony and the studios thought it would, which is one of the reasons why some studios signed on with BD in the first place.

Ummm...Rob?? How am I six months too late when MS hasn't drop any prices yet? The situation I described has not happened but it is a real one. All consoles...add-ons....etc. etc. eventually drop in price. Again the system IS over a year old. You are defending a system that has just come out. In other words...at some point in time price advantage will once again belong to MS. Its just a question of when. Now...whether that will play a major role in the development of this war...I don't know...but you can't count out the possibility.

Now through the eyes of the average consumer....what I see is that what is supposed to be the best system and blu-ray player on the market is sitting around in stores not being picked up. Did you not expect a spike in Blu-ray sales when the machine launched? You'd be foolish if you didn't. BUT....come on...THIS IS A PS3...the super-gaming-movie-playing machine of AAALLL time and yet.....they are everywhere. So....the spike was to be expected....but the spike....is definitely way below what Sony "expected".

Prices are going to begin to fall all over the hd-dvd market. I'm sure it will also begin in the blu-ray market as well but it is safe to say that hd-dvd will always have the lower price edge unless this so-called 299.99 player from Sony shows up...which in turn will hurt the value of the PS3 since it will automatically lose all the blu-ray "movie viewrs only" customers.

Now before you attack me....all I paint are possible scenarios that I don't feel are far-fetched. But I'm definitely not 6 months late.... :D

Prices are going to begin to fall all over the hd-dvd market. I'm sure it will also begin in the blu-ray market as well but it is safe to say that hd-dvd will always have the lower price edge unless this so-called 299.99 player from Sony shows up...which in turn will hurt the value of the PS3 since it will automatically lose all the blu-ray "movie viewrs only" customers. :D

Sony said no dice to that for 2007 already, I posted their clarification from a Cnet interview in the News folder, I'm pretty sure Toshiba will list price so that the A2 is $299 or under from discount stores and places like Amazon. It's already $345 at Electronics Expo this week on Amazon.

GASP! The PS3 has been out for almost 4 months, and you can find it in stores everywhere??? That's gotta be a first in retail history! A product is released and 4 months later it is available all over the place. Surely, Guiness Book of Records must take note!

But you're right, the spike was probably smaller than Sony hoped it would be, but still it was better than the 360 launch... However, you kinda are 6 months late, because we've discussed this topic to death over and over again in this and past threads.

"Attach rate" was the big subject, where HD DVD folks were boasting about huge attach rates with the add-on, since everybody who buys the add-on, buys it to watch movies. On the other hand, almost noone would use the PS3 for movie watching.

Well, check out http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/, Top 10, Show all. I would expect HD DVD to steadily increase, as more and more people flock to the add-on and buy dozens of movies. Instead I see it happening on the Blu-ray side. (Sure, it is just a small part of the market, but surely it is indicative of the overall market?)


(On the PS3, I just don't have the energy to bring up points about price, initial availability, lack of tier 1 lauch titles, negative press, mis-steps by Sony and so forth.)

HD DVD will most likely always have the lower price edge, you're right. Which is one of the reason for the lack of CE support from major manufacturers. Shinco may sound good in your ears, I does not in mine. ;)

But again, isn't the real story here the actual movies you can buy? Content is king? I know certain HD DVD people don't like talking about it, I have no idea why...

The Toshiba give away isn't that special when you see that its the same pool of 25 titles that you were originally allowed three of.Why are they doing it? Price is dropping AND pack-ins are increasing. Surely, they wouldn't do that if their players are flying off the shelves?

I'd rather get a $40-$50 lower player price and pick movies I really wantYep!

Also, I'm going to ASSume that when you use the word "you," you were not referring to me.

You're exactly right. I have a bad habit of replying to a post, and then using the word "you" in place of the word "one". I definetly meant a royal "you." I've got in trouble for that in the past, and probably will again in the future. My apologies.

But again, isn't the real story here the actual movies you can buy? Content is king? I know certain HD DVD people don't like talking about it, I have no idea why...

I'll talk about content if you want.

The last time I checked, HD DVD has more overall available content than BD. If you limit the search to only those released in the U.S., then HD DVD can't get the BD titles from the EU, as well as many foreign releases. In that case, it is almost equal, HD DVD has 181 releases while BD has 193 releases. So BD has about 6% more titles released in the U.S.

Of the 181 released titles on HD DVD, 109 of them aren't currently available on BD. Of the 193 titles released on BD, 121 aren't available on HD DVD. If you switch from movies that are released, to movies that are announced, the amount of unique content grows to 133 for HD DVD and 155 for Blu-ray. If one were to look at international numbers, I suspect the number of unique HD DVD titles would grow, due to having more foreign films, and the number of BD unique titles would be less, because Studio Canal et. al. has a lot more BD content for HD DVD players than the other way around. But that is just a suspicion.


I think many BD supporters are counting their chickens before they're hatched, with regards to content. They act as though there is a big difference in available content, when in fact it is a fairly modest difference. Worldwide, HD DVD actual has the lead, and given there is no region coding, that is relevant. So while you say HD DVD supporters dont' want to talk about content, I can only reply that maybe BD supporters go too far in talking about it.

Does anyone have good first-hand knowledge on the cost of these promotions to the companies that make them possible?I have no inside knowledge of this industry, but modern database and data-collecting techniques are used to closely monitor the success of promotions like these. Massive amounts of detailed sales data are collected today. The data is worth a lot of $$$ and companies sell this data so that market analysis companies can tell manufacturers how successful particular promotions were.

Given that you stated (with relevant part highlighted):it seems that the principals of "sunk costs" are beyond you, or you are purposely spinning. Those who purchased the PS3 because it was a game system they wanted with no concern for the movie playback part and then saw the current sale on the BDs at Amazon could choose to get into watching BDs for just the additional prices of the discs. Those with a Netflix account could just start getting BDs instead of DVDs.
Maybe I'm not following what you are saying, because your reasoning would seem to imply that more PS3 owners will choose to use the BD playback than XBOX360 owners will go out and buy the add-on.
The thing I was most surprised about was that the PS3 was listed as selling more game software for the week than the Wii did, just based on that one game.
--Darin
Nope, sunk costs are sunk costs. Do you include your display and audio system costs when you buy a HD or BD player? No - unless you have to upgrade them at the same time. There are 10,000,000 existing xbox 360 owners out there that have the choice and need to spend only $200 to get going. Every PS3 owner has to spend $xxx for the game machine and non-optional, added-on BD transport, whether or not they use it for BD movies. (Don't anyone tell me the BD drive is essential for PS3 games - I don't buy it - oh I can hear it now: but all PS3 games are on BD) Now about the $xxx, what, 10% of buyers are going to buy it bare bones, for movies only?

I think more PS3 than Xbox owners will use their machines for movies, but that's a different subject.

Why are they doing it? Price is dropping AND pack-ins are increasing. Surely, they wouldn't do that if their players are flying off the shelves?



You've nailed it, but don't be so foolish as to not realize (or admit) that Sony has the same problem and is reacting the same way. They are scrambling to drop prices on items they already sell at a sizable loss. Something they would never be doing at this juncture if sales were brisk.

There is a close to 2-1 sales disparity in software sales and Sony has a bigger installed base. Yet they are fighting hard against the fact that they are nowhere near mass adoption or their promised sales projections. I would say the Amazon sale is a cheap way for them to boast a 3-1 disparity, so that claims of "victory" will seem to be more legit, but I'll bet ya they never mention cutting software prices in the same breath with increased sales.

Anybody that thinks any "deals" passed on to consumer in either format aren't being done at the end of a bayonet, are looking too close at the horse-race and not close enough at the overall stagnant sales of HD.

I'll talk about content if you want. Cool!
The last time I checked, HD DVD has more overall available content than BD. If you limit the search to only those released in the U.S., then HD DVD can't get the BD titles from the EU, as well as many foreign releases. In that case, it is almost equal, HD DVD has 181 releases while BD has 193 releases. So BD has about 6% more titles released in the U.S. I didn't quite get what you were saying at first there, but yep, there are more available titles on Blu-ray than HD DVD. EU is a non-issue in the J6P world... If you look at what is announced and can be pre-ordered, the gap is widening.

Of the 181 released titles on HD DVD, 109 of them aren't currently available on BD. Of the 193 titles released on BD, 121 aren't available on HD DVD. If you switch from movies that are released, to movies that are announced, the amount of unique content grows to 133 for HD DVD and 155 for Blu-ray. If one were to look at international numbers, I suspect the number of unique HD DVD titles would grow, due to having more foreign films, and the number of BD unique titles would be less, because Studio Canal et. al. has a lot more BD content for HD DVD players than the other way around. But that is just a suspicion.Again, EU is a non issue in the US, will never have ANY impact on any numbers in the US... (IMHO)


I think many BD supporters are counting their chickens before they're hatched, with regards to content. They act as though there is a big difference in available content, when in fact it is a fairly modest difference. Worldwide, HD DVD actual has the lead, and given there is no region coding, that is relevant. So while you say HD DVD supporters dont' want to talk about content, I can only reply that maybe BD supporters go too far in talking about it.I don't think so. You can't just look at the numbers. You have to look at which titles are on each list. Do you think Dragon Heart or The Big Lebowski has much pull vs. Pirates of the Caribbean and Cars? Can you honestly say that you believe Universals and Weinsteins exclusives will be able to outweigh Sony, Disney and Fox?

Granted, the difference in numbers might not be that big today, but with more studios on the Blu-ray side that difference will increase in the coming months. Universal are burning their exclusives faster than Sony, Disney and Fox. A quick glance at blockbuster numbers for the last few years confirms this. So no, I don't think I go too far when talking about it, and I'll keep talking about it... :D In fact, insinuating that Blu-ray and HD DVD really are close when it comes to current and upcoming content is spin, plain and simple. (IMHO. YMMV.)

... HD DVD will most likely always have the lower price edge, you're right. Which is one of the reason for the lack of CE support from major manufacturers. Shinco may sound good in your ears, I does not in mine. ;) A lower price point would mean selling more players. Toshiba is 'major' CE support, is it not? I have no idea what Shinco is, but if it produces a great picture for a cheap price, it'll probably sell well to the masses.

But again, isn't the real story here the actual movies you can buy? Content is king? I know certain HD DVD people don't like talking about it, I have no idea why...You must mean future content, since as pointed out before, the difference in total discs for each camp is relatively close. And more specifically, potential future content. At this point, it looks like more studio support for Blu-ray would mean more future content, but the future is always changing. It may take many years before the content differential is substantial. There will always be people from both camps that prefer the movies from their camp over the other. And people buying cheap players will probably be of the mindset that content will eventually come to their format at some point in the future, and that there is plenty to watch until then. I can't see studios withholding content from the other format indefinitely, especially if there is a large amount of players out there (works both ways).

I am HD DVD owner and will quite happily talk about content. Theres plenty to keep me going for the next couple of months. When it comes to the quantity of titles Blu Ray will probably win out. As for quality, for me personally there are about 3x more titles on HD DVD I would rather own. If content is king then Blu Ray is sadly lacking at the moment in my opinion.
And if Universal burn their exclusives quickly, fine. I will just have loads of great Universal titles to watch until Blu Ray comes down in price and they release better titles

You've nailed it, but don't be so foolish as to not realize (or admit) that Sony has the same problem and is reacting the same way. They are scrambling to drop prices on items they already sell at a sizable loss. Something they would never be doing at this juncture if sales were brisk.Which items are they selling at a sizeable loss? Surely you can't be talking about the PS3, because if they were selling hte PS3 at the numbers they were hoping for, their losses would have been even bigger. So to scramble to cover your loss, when your loss is much lower than it would have been had you sold according to internal budgets, doesn't seem to make sense. They are cutting cost like any other console manufacturer will do once their product hit the market. No drama. (Well, some drama, Stringer vs. Kutaragi for sure...)

If you're talking about introducing the 300, again it is the natural product cycle. High end model is released, new model comes out later at lower cost. Now, the current 1000 probably is selling MUCH less than Sony had hoped for. And the primary reason for that is Toshiba's rabbit called $499 surprise. Sony assumed (arrogantly and wrongly) a walk in the park, Toshiba saw the writing on the wall and acted accordingly.

There is a close to 2-1 sales disparity in software sales and Sony has a bigger installed base. Yet they are fighting hard against the fact that they are nowhere near mass adoption or their promised sales projections. I would say the Amazon sale is a cheap way for them to boast a 3-1 disparity, so that claims of "victory" will seem to be more legit, but I'll bet ya they never mention cutting software prices in the same breath with increased sales. Nah... It is a sale, just a blip. (Is there an echo in here? ;)) They might claim it on the next Nielsen numbers for march (as we know the sale ends at the end of march), and I wouldn't be surprised if it has all been planned that way. But numbers will go back to more normal soon. But then some really BIG titles will hit on Blu-ray, with less big titles on HD DVD. And, I am inclined to say (with good games finally hitting the PS3) more PS3s are going to leave the now fully stocked shelves, than Toshibas and add-ons. Net net, 2-1 will go way up in march, then down in april, but not down to 2-1. My opinion, of course.

Anybody that thinks any "deals" passed on to consumer in either format aren't being done at the end of a bayonet, are looking too close at the horse-race and not close enough at the overall stagnant sales of HD.Agreed. Overall, studios and CE's were expecting people to come in droves, and they're not. Much of the blame they have themselves, but for a LOT of people, DVD works just fine.

And more specifically, potential future content. Potential? In what way? You're saying dual-studios will release more HD DVD content, Universal will go into overdrive, and Sony, Disney and Fox will not release any more titles?


At this point, it looks like more studio support for Blu-ray would mean more future content, but the future is always changing. It may take many years before the content differential is substantial. No, it will not. The BDA are fully aware of what is at stake here, and will not let up their efforts as far as this "war" is concerned. I'm sorry to be so categoric, but these people are not dummies (although a few of them got a left hook or two last fall). We're just starting to see content. Everybody knows "fall is it", wait and see.

There will always be people from both camps that prefer the movies from their camp over the other. And people buying cheap players will probably be of the mindset that content will eventually come to their format at some point in the future, and that there is plenty to watch until then. I can't see studios withholding content from the other format indefinitely, especially if there is a large amount of players out there (works both ways).True. But what happens if Universal announces support this fall for Blu-ray? And Disney, Fox and Sony sticks to Blu-ray? Will people still buy HD DVD players thinking "they'll cave eventually"? Will there be a big market for universal players then? Somehow, I doubt it.

(I've said before that I believe Universal will cave this fall. I'm quite sure there are some deals with Microsoft on this very topic, but I think there are some dates and conditions set that might not be met, or have been met. Universal gets money on every Zune sold. Has the Zune sold according to estimates? Is Universal getting the amount of mnoey they were "promised"? New leadership at Universal. HD DVD disappearing from the web site. I think there is a whole thread in this topic...)

Well if HD-DVD has plenty of content, we don't need universal players right?

And we can expect the whining about Disney and Fox not going neutral or how Disney and Fox let the console market dictate their decisions to stop?

:p

Potential? In what way? You're saying dual-studios will release more HD DVD content, Universal will go into overdrive, and Sony, Disney and Fox will not release any more titles?I'm not saying anything of the sort. I say potential, as in it may come to pass. Last year we had these same studios supporting these same formats and BD wasn't producing as many titles as HD DVD, but now BD is producing more. Who knows what the future holds?

No, it will not. The BDA are fully aware of what is at stake here, and will not let up their efforts as far as this "war" is concerned. I'm sorry to be so categoric, but these people are not dummies (although a few of them got a left hook or two last fall). We're just starting to see content. Everybody knows "fall is it", wait and see.I asked, who knows what the future holds? Apparently you think you do. Like you say though, wait and see.

True. But what happens if Universal announces support this fall for Blu-ray? And Disney, Fox and Sony sticks to Blu-ray? Will people still buy HD DVD players thinking "they'll cave eventually"? Will there be a big market for universal players then? Somehow, I doubt it.If Universal goes neutral or BD exclusive, yes that would significantly hurt probably kill HD DVD, even with cheap players. Let's hope that doesn't happen though, since cheap players are what's going to get the masses into HD (high def). The niche that HD is now may remain that way if J6P won't buy into expensive Blu-ray. With competition, those expensive Blu-ray players will drop in price a lot faster.

(I've said before that I believe Universal will cave this fall. I'm quite sure there are some deals with Microsoft on this very topic, but I think there are some dates and conditions set that might not be met, or have been met. Universal gets money on every Zune sold. Has the Zune sold according to estimates? Is Universal getting the amount of mnoey they were "promised"? New leadership at Universal. HD DVD disappearing from the web site. I think there is a whole thread in this topic...)Yes, and others have said before that Fox, Disney, etc. will cave this fall. Though cave wouldn't be the proper term, IMO. Join (and get more revenue, etc.) sounds better to me ;)

:D In fact, insinuating that Blu-ray and HD DVD really are close when it comes to current and upcoming content is spin, plain and simple. (IMHO. YMMV.)


How can you say "insinuating that Blu-ray and HD DVD really are close when it comes to current... content is spin"?

Current releases in content are very close, less than 6% different! And there are certainly some big titles that are currently only available on HD DVD.
Not to mention, HD DVD actually has more content available to it, world wide.

If you think there is a large content gap currently, then we are so far apart on this, I don't there's anyway to bridge it. 50% is large. 6% is hardly noticable.

I think that the BD content advantage has been talked about so much around here that people have began to lose all sense of proportion. They can't bring themselves to use any description that isn't excessive. In this case, you refuse to acknowledge that it is about equal in content right now, even though that is plainly the case.

Bd may get more content in the future. But that is not today, and even then we don't know what the studios are going to do for sure. HD DVD may pick a studio as well.

Well if HD-DVD has plenty of content, we don't need universal players right?

And we can expect the whining about Disney and Fox not going neutral or how Disney and Fox let the console market dictate their decisions to stop?

:p
If you guys will stop whinning about Universal being HD DVD only, maybe we can get a deal on the last part. But as to the first part, I've never really liked the idea of universal players, but I do accept that they are the likely reality of the future.

Well if HD-DVD has plenty of content, we don't need universal players right?*boggle* Considering there is content ('plenty') on both sides, you still need some way of watching the other format too. :confused:

And we can expect the whining about Disney and Fox not going neutral or how Disney and Fox let the console market dictate their decisions to stop?

:pDoubtful. ;)
I will continue to complain about Disney until they go neutral or affordable Blu-ray (or universal) players are available (<$200).

(I've said before that I believe Universal will cave this fall.


Yes, but you also voted that HD DVD was dead in the water (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=587148&page=1&pp=30) back in October of 2005. So your posting history reveals that your HD DVD predictions have been as pessimistic as they've been inaccurate for few years now. :)

Well if HD-DVD has plenty of content, we don't need universal players right?

If you see the unqueness charts - you will notice that about 60% of content is unique to both formats.

Hi,

Within two years Kmart will have cmbi players at less that $200.

Within four years we will be downloading all our Media for either immediate viewing at one price and full ownership at another with the provider keeping it safe on his server.

If either camp had released a 7.1 lossless layer on every logical film from the getgo they would have blown the competion out of the water.

It wouldn't surprise me if 90% of those contributing to this thread already have processors with the DACs and analog inputs that already support at least 96/24 and probably 192/24

I've had one since 2001

Peter M.

Nope, sunk costs are sunk costs.Yep. If a person bought a PS3 in December for games, then what they spent is sunk cost. Now if they see a sale on movies they can buy them without spending any more. Are you having trouble with that, as you seem to want to apply "sunk costs" in one way to one side and another way to another side.
Every PS3 owner has to spend $xxx ...It is not accurate to say "has to spend" for somebody who is already a PS3 owner. And what is your claim for xxx, given that it was previously $800-$1000 to enjoy BD, even for existing PS3 owners?

Is there a reason that you are using words like "will cost" for existing owners and then claiming that others are the ones who don't understand sunk costs?

--Darin

Potential? In what way? You're saying dual-studios will release more HD DVD content, Universal will go into overdrive, and Sony, Disney and Fox will not release any more titles?I don't have to say anything. dual-studios have released more content on HD DVD than BD. A fair number of Warner titles are HD DVD only: Batman Begins, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Constantine, Dukes of Hazzard, Terminator 3, Troy, V for Vendetta, as well as Smallville Season 5.

Sure, at some point, Warner has said they'd like to achieve parity, but it's not going to happen soon, and in that time we'll be seeing other movies that won't be out on BD until later, including, I believe, some titles that would have no problems competing with "Cars" and "Pirates of Johnny Depp's Eyeshadow" :)

You don't think Warner will have those titles out on BD before... say, Xmas 07?

Yes, and others have said before that Fox, Disney, etc. will cave this fall. Though cave wouldn't be the proper term, IMO. Join (and get more revenue, etc.) sounds better to me ;) Sure. :) Let's try to enjoy our respective HD collections and not worry what might and might not happen months from now. It is all speculation anyway. But hey, speculation is fun. :D

Yes, but you also voted that HD DVD was dead in the water (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=587148&page=1&pp=30) back in October of 2005. So your posting history reveals that your HD DVD predictions have been as pessimistic as they've been inaccurate for few years now. :)Wohoo! A year and a half ago. Thanks for looking that up, my friend! :) Trying to discredit me, skogan, smear campagin, what is going on? I didn't even remember that one. But guess what, I stand by it. In the big picture, that is. I've never claimed to be an oracle, and I always try to add IMHO etc. I speculate in favor of Blu-ray, and I just find it interesting how much that annoys some members. :) I still see it going in favor of Blu-ray, so my stance has not changed.

So you weren't wrong, you were just early - is that it? :)

How can you say "insinuating that Blu-ray and HD DVD really are close when it comes to current... content is spin"?

Current releases in content are very close, less than 6% different! And there are certainly some big titles that are currently only available on HD DVD.
Not to mention, HD DVD actually has more content available to it, world wide.

If you think there is a large content gap currently, then we are so far apart on this, I don't there's anyway to bridge it. 50% is large. 6% is hardly noticable.

I think that the BD content advantage has been talked about so much around here that people have began to lose all sense of proportion. They can't bring themselves to use any description that isn't excessive. In this case, you refuse to acknowledge that it is about equal in content right now, even though that is plainly the case.

Bd may get more content in the future. But that is not today, and even then we don't know what the studios are going to do for sure. HD DVD may pick a studio as well.

But, skogan, I DON'T. You conveniently leave out the "and future" part of my statement. Now and future, put together equals big difference. I AGREE that now the difference isn't big. I would not take the world wide view. VERY few US consumers will be importing EU titles.

Let's have this discussion again just before Christmas. If we're still at only 6% advantage, I'll send you a cookie. (But then we'll also talk which titles are out, not just numbers.)

So you weren't wrong, you were just early - is that it? :)
:D

But, skogan, I DON'T. You conveniently leave out the "and future" part of my statement. Now and future, put together equals big difference. I AGREE that now the difference isn't big. I would not take the world wide view. VERY few US consumers will be importing EU titles.

Let's have this discussion again just before Christmas. If we're still at only 6% advantage, I'll send you a cookie. (But then we'll also talk which titles are out, not just numbers.)


Fair enough.

I'll bookmark this post and title it "Do not open until Christmas". Then i'll look at again in December, and if HD DVD has closed the content gap any, I'll PM you with an address you can send my cookie.

If HD DVD hasn't closed the gap, or worse, if it's defunct, I'll simply go back and erase this post, and pretend it never happned :)

Excellent. :) (Oh, in addition to number of titles, we'll discuss number of discs sold of each, if we can find reliable statistics.)

Yep. If a person bought a PS3 in December for games, then what they spent is sunk cost. Now if they see a sale on movies they can buy them without spending any more. Are you having trouble with that, as you seem to want to apply "sunk costs" in one way to one side and another way to another side.
It is not accurate to say "has to spend" for somebody who is already a PS3 owner. And what is your claim for xxx, given that it was previously $800-$1000 to enjoy BD, even for existing PS3 owners?

Is there a reason that you are using words like "will cost" for existing owners and then claiming that others are the ones who don't understand sunk costs?

--Darin
Don't understand. As I've said before, when a new purchasing decision comes up, one doesn't count all the previous purchases, i.e. they are "sunk", which is what you are saying. To buy a BD player in the form of the PS3 (whether you buy it for games or not) you pay the full purchase price, which in many cases include bundle costs. But there are 10,000,000 "sunk costers" who can get into HD for less than $200.

Don't understand. As I've said before, when a new purchasing decision comes up, one doesn't count all the previous purchases, i.e. they are "sunk", which is what you are saying. To buy a BD player in the form of the PS3 (whether you buy it for games or not) you pay the full purchase price, which in many cases include bundle costs. But there are 10,000,000 "sunk costers" who can get into HD for less than $200.Yes, but if that person already bought the PS3 for gaming alone, then when they decide they want to use it as a movie player, it can be considered a sunk cost. Granted, that is far too expensive for a game machine though, LOL :p

I'm with you Baronken. I'm not a bleeding edge consumer. I would consider myself more of a J6P. I bought the XBox 360 6 months after release when I saw it on sale at Sam's. I bought the HD DVD add-on as an impulse when New Egg had them for $179. I buy HD DVDs on impulse and do like them better than regular DVDs. I may buy a BD player if they ever come down to $100 or I can buy another add-on to my 360. Other than that, I will not buy a BD title or player. I can live with the DVD versions for now.

Even if HD DVD DOES bite the dust at some point in the future, I will still be able to play the 20 or so copies I have bought and be perfectly happy. I hope it doesn't because that would mean I could no longer buy any more NEW releases.

Because I don't have a BD player, I could give a rats fart whether BD sales increased or decreased. I am only concerned about HD DVD. I believe many J6P consumers are in the same wagon as me and there will be more hopping on before they buy another gaming system or an expensive BD player.

Just sayin'.

I'll say it again. I don't like people looking to save a few $$$ now screwing me out of 20 GB of capacity and 18 Mbps of bandwidth, especially when the prices of either format are going to go down to the same level.

If price is so important, stick with DVDs, or maybe VHS.

I'll say it again. I don't like people looking to save a few $$$ now screwing me out of 20 GB of capacity and 18 Mbps of bandwidth, especially when the prices of either format are going to go down to the same level.

If price is so important, stick with DVDs, or maybe VHS.

Well that's just it, by lowering the price point HD DVD introduced a lot of people that would not normally be early adopters into the game. We early adopters spend the cash and if BD were to fail, lets just say I wouldn't blink and would go out and buy a HD DVD player the next day, just like all other early adopters. Basically before we buy in we know there is a good chance that the format will fail and what we are buying could end-up as a fancy doorstop.

The new people that bought in because of the low entry price are worried that their investment will go to waste, so they fight for it, a lot more that me or you, and because they are so vocal it looks like there are only these guys out there. On the BD side you get a few PS3 people, but a lot of them are battle weary already as they have fought a year long war with the X360 guys, so while there may be more BD people, a lot of them don't bother with online forums because they are not worried about their investment.

Now don't get me wrong, it would be nice if I picked the winning format, but I really am not all that bothered about it. All I want is good HD-optical content, and I see BD as the best long-term solution.

A lower price point would mean selling more players. Toshiba is 'major' CE support, is it not?A single major CE company is not much CE support especially when it comes to a video format. And the cheapest non-Toshiba stand alone HD DVD player you can buy is from LG, has an MSRP of $1200, and doesn't support HDi. In fact besides that LG player what is the next cheapest non-Toshiba stand alone HD DVD player out there?


I can't see studios withholding content from the other format indefinitely, especially if there is a large amount of players out there (works both ways).There are a lot of video formats that proved there are several factors needed for success, not just price, and both EVD and VMD as cheap as they may be will most likely never get any major studio support. Also having dual inventory for two different HD formats is something that neither the studios or the retailers like.


Yes, but you also voted that HD DVD was dead in the water (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=587148&page=1&pp=30) back in October of 2005. So your posting history reveals that your HD DVD predictions have been as pessimistic as they've been inaccurate for few years now.Just to support nilsp on this but I think skogan that if the situation was reversed you wouldn't take such an accusation seriously. Also I took a quick glance through the poll results (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=3094) and I notice that besides nilsp there were many other posters that voted Yes on that poll including kevinca1 and markrubin. In other words there were a fair number of people who thought that Paramount going neutral was a bad sign for HD DVD.


I'll say it again. I don't like people looking to save a few $$$ now screwing me out of 20 GB of capacity and 18 Mbps of bandwidth, especially when the prices of either format are going to go down to the same level.

If price is so important, stick with DVDs, or maybe VHS.If people who own an Xbox 360 want to buy into the cheapest HD option that is their choice to make. In my opinion it is better to talk about the benefits of Blu-ray than to try to convince people who already bought into HD DVD that they should have picked Blu-ray. That tends to lead to a heated argument since it will only make the person want to defend their decision.

Maxpower, you can reverse your nouns, and it works just as well. PRICE will determine the winner, and HD is the lower cost format.

Maxpower, you can reverse your nouns, and it works just as well. PRICE will determine the winner, and HD is the lower cost format.

This war will be over before that ever happens. Chinese players on the horizon, that's the one. No, price will not settle this, content will. I want to watch Casino Royale so I need a Blu-ray player. It is that simple.

Don't try and say, 'I need a player for X price and only HD DVD offers that, so that is what I will buy'. The difference being, people that worry about price are not going to spend $199 on a player of these new red discs for $25 when they could easily stick to DVD for $29.99 and $3.99 for the discs. Also you seem to think that the BD will forever be more expensive, how? They use the same B/V diodes, the same codecs, BD may need a bigger buffer, but that really is it. Disc costs have now all been absorbed by Sony DADC and MEI as the lines are built or in production now. Either way, the only reason that BD players are more money is that the BDA companies want to make money off this whole venture (apart from maybe Sony/MEI). So tell me how HD DVD will be cheaper in the long-term, oh wait, it won't.

Richard,

A single major CE company is not much CE support especially when it comes to a video format

But you only need one. Based on that logic, the PS and Xbox should be doomed for failure.

Max,

I want to watch Casino Royale so I need a Blu-ray player. It is that simple.

What you say is true, but it isnt that simple. The thing you need to consider is how many people are willing to fork over $500 to watch Casino Royale?

So, whether you want to believe it or not, price does matter.

Yes, the prices will drop, but it will be a while before they drop to the $200 price point.

I'll say it again. I don't like people looking to save a few $$$ now screwing me out of 20 GB of capacity and 18 Mbps of bandwidth, especially when the prices of either format are going to go down to the same level.

If price is so important, stick with DVDs, or maybe VHS.

Who's doing the screwin'? I don't even know you and I don't care if you buy BD or HD DVD, or DVD or VHS for that matter. I don't think what I do or you do will matter an iota in the grand scheme of things.

It's not all about price either. I like the XBox. I would have bought it whether the PS3 was available way back when XBox was initially released. I probably would have paid more for it than a PS3. It just so happens that I didn't have to and neither does anybody else and I got to have it a year before the PS3 was even available.

The HD DVD was an afterthought. It plays HD pretty damned good (SD looks pretty sweet on it too). PS3 just doesn't cut it for me, and I'm not about to spend another $500+ to play BD, whether that be a PS3 or a stand-alone BD player.

Now if I hadn't already had the 360, I might have considered paying $400+ for an HD player (either format), but not likely. I probably would have waited until it the price was sub $300.

What does the extra bandwidth and bigger storage buy me if 80% of the people I show HD to, can't even tell the difference between HD and SD as it is? It's worth the extra $200 I spent to me for HD DVD.

I'll let you know again when BD players are down to $100 and I perceive the value.

Max,

What you say is true, but it isnt that simple. The thing you need to consider is how many people are willing to fork over $500 to watch Casino Royale?

So, whether you want to believe it or not, price does matter.

Yes, the prices will drop, but it will be a while before they drop to the $200 price point.

Which is why it will be settled before then.

There are two battlefronts in this war, content and price, Toshiba have pretty much maxed out the price aspect for a while yet, but the BD studios have tons of content left.

So tell me how HD DVD will be cheaper in the long-term, oh wait, it won't.
I hope you will agree the disks are cheaper to manufacture, if not I'm not prepared to discuss that further, as it has been established here already.

Full featured BD players appear to be more expensive than HD players, probably caused by the lower standalone volumes caused by the PS3. The PS3 is a semi-affordable player now, but it will never get down to the price of a mass market player. In the mid-term, as long as the PS3 cannabalizes the BD market, BD prices will remain higher than if it wasn't there. Full featured HD-DVD volumes are steadily building and provide a competitive environment for lower cost players. Now if Sony wants to heavily subsidize a mass-market BD player you may be right - but I doubt that. Not until they partially amortize their PS3 losses, hopefully within a few years. So HD has the first chance of producing a mass-market player. Price wins.

Full featured BD players appear to be more expensive than HD players, probably caused by the lower standalone volumes caused by the PS3. If you use "full featured" for BD and not for HD DVD, or define it as something that includes the HD-A2, then that does seem to be true. While I agree that the standalones have been cheaper on the HD DVD side (which I believe is largely out of necessity on Toshiba's part), if you compare like to like with the Samsung that is supposed to be out soon (from what I've read), then it looks like that is basically the same class as the HD-XA2, but $799 MSRP instead of $999 MSRP. I find it interesting that the Samsung has the Reon chip and is supposed to support 1080p24 output (I think out of the box), while the HD-XA2 isn't supposed to get it until July (and that from somebody who originally said he was 100% sure it would be February, so not a date set in stone). Maybe the Samsung won't have it first, but it looks like it will from what I've read. The Samsung does seem to be missing the advanced audio itself, but does have HDMI 1.3 for hooking to upcoming receivers to get that. I do find it interesting how Toshiba seems to have decided to price 1080p60 and 1080p24 outputs at a premium.

--Darin

I'm just saying I think the PS3 will make the rate of BD price decreases slower than HD price decreases.

I'm with you Baronken. I'm not a bleeding edge consumer. I would consider myself more of a J6P. I bought the XBox 360 6 months after release when I saw it on sale at Sam's. I bought the HD DVD add-on as an impulse when New Egg had them for $179. I buy HD DVDs on impulse and do like them better than regular DVDs. I may buy a BD player if they ever come down to $100 or I can buy another add-on to my 360. Other than that, I will not buy a BD title or player. I can live with the DVD versions for now.

Even if HD DVD DOES bite the dust at some point in the future, I will still be able to play the 20 or so copies I have bought and be perfectly happy. I hope it doesn't because that would mean I could no longer buy any more NEW releases.

Because I don't have a BD player, I could give a rats fart whether BD sales increased or decreased. I am only concerned about HD DVD. I believe many J6P consumers are in the same wagon as me and there will be more hopping on before they buy another gaming system or an expensive BD player.

Just sayin'.


My sentiments exactly. ;0) But one question....what does J6P mean?

My sentiments exactly. ;0) But one question....what does J6P mean?

J6P = Joe Six Pack. I've often referred to him as JQP (John Q Public) but it seems that the consensus at AVS is J6P so I've learned to conform. :p

I also wanted to add that quality doesn't always win. Take McDonald's hamburgers for example. They're alright, but certainly NOT the best burger you can buy. They aren't always even the cheapest burger you can buy.

Which is why it will be settled before then.

There are two battlefronts in this war, content and price, Toshiba have pretty much maxed out the price aspect for a while yet, but the BD studios have tons of content left.

Bull, Toshiba isn't just going to lay down an die before the have players under $300 out there, you can already get a A2 on Amazon for $345.

I don't get where people think these minuscule numbers of total HD sales are going to make either side do anything but dig in deeper for at least another twelve months.

I suppose if your eager to believe and help spread all the "over by fall" FUD Sony and company are dolloping on, fine, but i think it's just a load and time will bare this out.

When the HD DVD player prices come down to $299 and J6P and his friend start buying it in droves, what movies will they buy? (No, not thinking about content.) Are they willing to start paying $25-$28 for a movie again? They're used to $15-$19 right? Or do you expect prices of HD content to come down as fast as well?

But you only need one. Based on that logic, the PS and Xbox should be doomed for failure.There is a huge difference between a video format and a game console though. I am not saying that a single major CE company can't do a lot to promote a video format but I am not so sure that they alone can make it successful. That is something that I think both Toshiba and Microsoft know which is why they got Thomson to sell a rebadged HD DVD player last year and why they are trying so hard to get Chinese CE companies to make HD DVD players.


So HD has the first chance of producing a mass-market player. Price wins.Not to pop this bubble of hope but that was the same idea that was behind VMD and EVD and neither of those formats are exactly taking off. There is a lot involved in making a video format successful and price is only one of the factors.

Originally Posted by WayneL
So HD has the first chance of producing a mass-market player. Price wins.

Good one! I guess that makes the iPod the cheapest MP3 portable around, eh? After all, it had to be by this logic.

Originally Posted by WayneL
I hope you will agree the disks are cheaper to manufacture, if not I'm not prepared to discuss that further, as it has been established here already.

Of course you won't discuss it further because in other threads the official prices have been revealed that the difference is negligible (per GB BD is cheaper) and that the HD DVD combo discs are the most expensive of all. :rolleyes:

I just saw a price list where many popular HD DVD's were selling for a retail price of almost $40. I don't think J6P will find that attractive even with $200 players.

- Tom

Good one! I guess that makes the iPod the cheapest MP3 portable around, eh? After all, it had to be by this logic.


This is one of the larges mis-carriages of logic that I've seen in a long time. The market forces at work with the iPod don't bear any (and I mean ANY) resemblence to what is happening between HD-DVD and BR.

->iPod: not first to market with an MP3 player, but WAS first to market (by a wiiiide margin) with a bundled digital audio player AND a service to download music; I'd argue that no one, as of yet, managed to integrate the player, the service on the computer software into a single product/service the way Apple has (why do you think M/S launched the Zune). Apple can charge a premium because they have a superior total experience with the player, service and software. Even at that, while Apple does dominat market share for digital music, digital music is still a fraction of overall music sales. So, attempting to imply that Apple has crushed its competition an is dominant would be ignoring that good 'ole music CDs still are dominant (in much the same way that SD DVDs are likely to dominate home video for quite some time). Also, keep in mind that Apple has cracked the magical 'mass adoption' price point with several of their products, namely the Shuffle and the Nano. At this point, Apple's market share is sufficient that as long as they keep their product innovation going (and continue to push the envelope in terms of media available), they'll survive until the next "big thing" comes along.

->HD-DVD & BR: Hmm, where to begin. First of all if either one of these formats came out by itself and offered a significant benefit to the user for quite some time before competitors tried to match the product, they might have had a chance to "pull and Apple". Even then, however, in much the same way that Apple still have a very small market share relative to the previous generation of music storage (CDs), HD-DVD/BR would take quite some time to acheive market dominance (Apple still hasn't -- in fact, I'd argue one mistake that Jobs continues to make is that he ignores the requirements of mass market share, Gates figured out relatively quickly that being the dominant player / format in the computer world = winning). Having said that, to this observer (I don't own either format yet), neither BR or HD-DVD has a "killer app" type edge over the other in terms of image quality, sound quality, or "user experience". Additionally, Apple's entry as a full player, service, software vendor was a leap past what others were doing or providing, and digital music, in general was a significant leap (with significant consumer recognized advantages) over music CDs, so to try to compare Apple and thei iPods with BR being the higher priced player and thinking they anything to do with one another is naive at best.

I'll say it again. I don't like people looking to save a few $$$ now screwing me out of 20 GB of capacity and 18 Mbps of bandwidth


So are you referring to when they use mpeg2 and PCM then :D

Since your going to keep bringing up old and tired arguments let me do the same.

Why hasn't the extra capacity or bandwidth pushed blu-ray to produce a single title with better PQ than HD-DVD? Having the extra bandwith has only led to the continued use of mpeg2 and PCM. Sorry my mistake. It's the other way round, they're only using mpeg2 and PCM to push the size over 25GB to justify the need for BD50's.

In a few years when we become accustomed to backing up our discs to our HTPC's, you're going to be cursing the extra 20GB of wasted Hard Disk space.

Just to support nilsp on this but I think skogan that if the situation was reversed you wouldn't take such an accusation seriously. Also I took a quick glance through the poll results (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=3094) and I notice that besides nilsp there were many other posters that voted Yes on that poll including kevinca1 and markrubin. In other words there were a fair number of people who thought that Paramount going neutral was a bad sign for HD DVD.




Here, I have no idea what you are talking about. I've read it a few times, but I still can't figure out what you mean. If the situation was reversed - I guess that means if I supported blu-ray and nilsp supported hd dvd.. or maybe it means if I had predicted BD was about to die, and he pulled a post of mine from the past... hmm not sure. Any way you wouldn't take such an accusation seriously. what accusation was taken seriously? We were joking around about cookies and stuff. Didn't the plethora of smiley faces and winks show you that? I don't know what accusation you are referring to, if it was something I accused him of, or something he accused me of, but either way, no one was taking anything seriously. Honestly Richard, I often don't know where you are coming from.

As for the rest of your paragraph, yes a lot of people predicted BD was the winner then. And it was all over for HD DVD at CES, and Universal was about to go BD because of the lack of announced titles, and the shake up at Uni was a sure sign that HD DVD was done for, and the Videoscan numbers meant it was all over, and Studio Canal had gone BD so Universal was about to follow... etc.

Really, there is an endless stream of people predicting the demise of HD DVD. You would think people would be more cautious in their predictions after getting burnt over and over again. But apparently not.

In a few years when we become accustomed to backing up our discs to our HTPC's, you're going to be cursing the extra 20GB of wasted Hard Disk space.

When, in a few years, we are backing up our HDDs on to optical, you will be cursing the 30GB limit.

When, in a few years, we are backing up our HDDs on to optical, you will be cursing the 30GB limit.

Why would that be, if all the movies are encoded to fit on on a 30G disc?

Why would that be, if all the movies are encoded to fit on on a 30G disc?

I mean backing up your computer to optical disc, 50GB is way better than 30GB for this use.

When, in a few years, we are backing up our HDDs on to optical, you will be cursing the 30GB limit.

What a weak and pointless response. We're only talking about Home Video media here.

How many people actually think these disks whether they are blu or red will become viable backup solution to HDD's.

What a weak and pointless response. We're only talking about Home Video media here.

How many people actually think these disks whether they are blu or red will become viable backup solution to HDD's.

Weak response to a weak argument.

I mean backing up your computer to optical disc, 50GB is way better than 30GB for this use.
I see, my mistake.

... Really, there is an endless stream of people predicting the demise of HD DVD. You would think people would be more cautious in their predictions after getting burnt over and over again. But apparently not.Because there is no accountability. Predict all you want, there are no repercussions. Loss of credibility on the forums? pffft, wooo! ;)

Would making it so those who make bad predictions are banned from AVS for a year help reduce the predictions? Interesting... :cool:

Really, there is an endless stream of people predicting the demise of HD DVD. You would think people would be more cautious in their predictions after getting burnt over and over again. But apparently not.


You would, but your losing sight that these aren't mere predictions, they are an attempt to get as much negative HD DVD spin out there as possible, hoping that it will discourage future HD DVD purchasing habits.

Self-fulfilling prophecy is the motivation.

Did you know that the number of Blu-ray standalones sold in February was equivalent to the number of HD DVD players? I was surprised to read that ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9981509&&#post9981509

slightly OT but:

Did you know AVS can be displayed either in the default blue background ( AVS dark theater) or in AVS White?

There is a toggle drop down box on the bottom left of the page (quick style chooser) to toggle this (be sure you don't accidentally toggle AVS mobile)

I prefer AVS white as it is much easier on the eyes!

If you are reading AVS at work, your employer is less likely to notice you are not working if you choose the white background :)

Try it!

slightly OT but:

Did you know AVS can be displayed either in the default blue background ( AVS dark theater) or in AVS White?

There is a toggle drop down box on the bottom left of the page (quick style chooser) to toggle this (be sure you don't accidentally toggle AVS mobile)

I prefer AVS white as it is much easier on the eyes!

If you are reading AVS at work, your employer is less likely to notice you are not working if you choose the white background :)

Try it!

I use it, and it is awesome, much easier on the eyes. :D

I mean backing up your computer to optical disc, 50GB is way better than 30GB for this use.

Why bother when a external $100 Hard-drive will do all this selectively with the press of a button? You don't even have to stop what your doing or drag files, Disk back-up is a lot less appealing than it used to be, and getting more so every day.

If you are reading AVS at work, your employer is less likely to notice you are not working if you choose the white background :)

Try it!
You're a bad boy, Mark. ;)

I do a lot of work from the home office, so for me, the "employer" is the mother of my kid. Always have to have the the cursor on the minimize button with work material up and ready-to-go, behind the AVS page. She knows those AVS colors. This info should help, Mark. Thanks. :D

... If you are reading AVS at work, your employer is less likely to notice you are not working if you choose the white background :)

Try it!Haha, that's exactly why I use the white background! :p

Why bother when a external $100 Hard-drive will do all this selectively with the press of a button? You don't even have to stop what your doing or drag files, Disk back-up is a lot less appealing than it used to be, and getting more so every day.

Magnetism my good man.

slightly OT but:

Did you know AVS can be displayed either in the default blue background ( AVS dark theater) or in AVS White?

There is a toggle drop down box on the bottom left of the page (quick style chooser) to toggle this (be sure you don't accidentally toggle AVS mobile)

I prefer AVS white as it is much easier on the eyes!

If you are reading AVS at work, your employer is less likely to notice you are not working if you choose the white background :)

Try it!


I'll give it a try.

The dark background has a seedy feel to it, a certain dank, like I just stepped into a strip club.

I'll give it a try.

The dark background has a seedy feel to it, a certain dank, like I just stepped into a strip club.

It may take a few days to get used to AVS White but once you do: you will not want to look at the blue background again ;)

Of course you won't discuss it further because in other threads the official prices have been revealed that the difference is negligible (per GB BD is cheaper) and that the HD DVD combo discs are the most expensive of all. :rolleyes:
As long as we talk apples to apples, you get one movie per disk, so BD costs more. When you put it in terms of $/GB, you must be addressing computer storage, which isn't the topic.

The notion of downloads overtaking optical disks is the purest fantasy. It's not going to happen. Grandma does not want to be running a server with networked computers just to watch a damn movie. People want to *own* the movie, on a nice durable disk that they can take with them anywhere: in the car for the kids, over to grandma's house, etc. They want to lend them out to friends. They don't want to maintain terabytes of storage to backup their collection.

Downloads are a niche market that primarily competes with the rental and video-on-demand markets. It's not for the general public. Not during the lifetime of Blu-Ray.

I'll give it a try.

The dark background has a seedy feel to it, a certain dank, like I just stepped into a strip club.
Maybe that's the appeal for me.

It may take a few days to get used to AVS White but once you do: you will not want to look at the blue background again ;)

Thanks for the tip. I have switched to white.

It may take a few days to get used to AVS White but once you do: you will not want to look at the blue background again ;)
Now can you make it look like my local MLS page? :D

The notion of downloads overtaking optical disks is the purest fantasy. It's not going to happen. Grandma does not want to be running a server with networked computers just to watch a damn movie. People want to *own* the movie, on a nice durable disk that they can take with them anywhere: in the car for the kids, over to grandma's house, etc. They want to lend them out to friends. They don't want to maintain terabytes of storage to backup their collection.

Downloads are a niche market that primarily competes with the rental and video-on-demand markets. It's not for the general public. Not during the lifetime of Blu-Ray.

Or HD-DVD! But generally agreed.

BTW, I believe I read that CDs still outsell music downloads by 10/1.

Did you know that the number of Blu-ray standalones sold in February was equivalent to the number of HD DVD players? I was surprised to read that ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9981509&&#post9981509

Yes yes, Video Business had a similar article. Blu-ray is twice the price, but are selling the same number of players. (Not counting the PS3.) I was surprised, too. Anyone seen numbers from the couple of months before?

Courtesy of Blacklow from another thread ...latest VideoScan numbers:

Newest numbers up (http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/questex/hom031107/):

Week ending March 4, 2007

YTD BD 100.00 HD DVD 48.73
SI BD 100.00 HD DVD 91.46

Maybe I'm not following what you are saying, because your reasoning would seem to imply that more PS3 owners will choose to use the BD playback than XBOX360 owners will go out and buy the add-on.

Yes I am and it is just an opinion. Even though 360 has 10 millions owners, I can not imagine a signficant number buying an add on. I can imagine someone owning a PS3 and trying it until they decide to buy a standalone. Most people will buy these consoles for gaming. Not that many will spend extra money on the accessories except for controllers and the add on is not a cheap accessory for the average Joe.

I have a 360 and I have thought about getting the add on due to reviews, but my fiances are not great so I have to wait. I am content with HD through cable until things get better. I am going to eventually get a PS3 and since I have to save and wait, I will just spend the money on the PS3. These are just my views so please don't flame me.

Magnetism my good man.


I suppose, but there is safety in numbers, it's not very common to loose two hardrives at once, and at least you have easy access.

For the record I've had plenty of corrupted CD an DVDs too, those burned optical dyes aren't the most dependable storage device either. It will be interesting to see if multi-layered micro-pit disks are going to have a higher failure rates.

Like a Hard-drive a disk that holds too many eggs can be just as great a loss if it goes plooey.

You're more than six months too late. We heard this same crap from HD DVD supporters for almost a year. They said the PS3 wouldn't sell. They said PS3 owners wouldn't buy movies. They said the PS3 wouldn't help Blu-Ray sales. They said Sony was doomed and the Blu-Ray studios would switch by the end of 2006.

Then the PS3 came out and Blu-Ray sales shot up past HD DVD.

HD DVD supporters have been so wrong about so many things for so long that I can't imagine how many of them manage to continue posting here. The PS3 arguments are dead. It did exactly what Sony and the studios thought it would, which is one of the reasons why some studios signed on with BD in the first place. The PS3 needs to sustain its sales throughout the year beyond the 1st quarter and needs to expand its Blu-ray sales even more to keep pace with anticipated HD DVD lower priced player sales in the summer and beyond.

Its possible that this early batch of PS3 owners includes a lot of first adopter Blu-ray owners and that future PS3 buyers may not buy as many movies. Also Sony and other Blu-ray studios are being very aggressive with promotions an depriving that may not be sustainable.

You may consider PS3 arguments dead, but others including most gaming industry analysts disagree.

I was going to go with a separate post for this, but it seems better suited to the "battle thread", so here goes...

Is anyone else finding the current state of events a bit unsettling? I'm speaking of the promotions that both HD DVD and Blu-ray are using to drive adoptions.

Toshiba is selling their HD DVD players with lots of free movies. When I bought my first DVD player in early 1998, I didn't get any free movies with it - and the player was twice the price in more-expensive dollars (i.e. inflation).

Sony, Fox, and others are selling Blu-ray discs at two-for-one prices, not just at Amazon this week, but in other stores in previous weeks (Fry's, Best Buy). I remember some mail-in promotions by Warner back in 1998 of a buy-3-get-one-free variety plus S&H, but there certainly weren't aggressive discounts like this.

I remember also the dot.com online sales boom starting in 1998-1999 and how various online stores positioned themselves with promotions to get you to buy from them -- and spending down their investment money in the process. It was an aggressive strategy that sent many of them out of business.

My point is this: These strategies are great for the consumer while they last, but they are definitely short term. I just hope that the businesses that are in this "to win" are also thinking about how to keep their operation afloat while they try to win market share with their particular formats and products.

Does anyone have good first-hand knowledge on the cost of these promotions to the companies that make them possible? Are the write-offs significant enough to put either format in jeopardy?

SCD The inclusion of free movies either by Sony and the BDA or toshiba is a very cost effective way to show value to the consumer. Movies are perceived as aa $20-30 value, yet they don't cost that much to include.

Its just that is unsustainable in the long term for anything except new player sales.

The cost of the fufillment rebate offers for HD DVD are minimal compared to the retail rebates direct to customers included in the PS3 box. But the actual acceptance rate isn't high enough to make much of a difference.

Don't know about the sales discount to Amazon. that's very aggressive and seems to take most of the studio profit out of those titiles.

At the volumes of profit being shown, those discounts may be written off asa promotional costs.

The biggest cost is the possible subsidies to the HD DVD players and the likely subsidies to the PS3.

Remember, the true cost of making and shipping a disc is small compared to the sale price. $1-5 versus $15-25. So it doesn't cost much to reduce the cost of teh software, its the lost sale income that's missing. Its not so much as a cost, its a lost profit.

I have no inside knowledge of this industry, but modern database and data-collecting techniques are used to closely monitor the success of promotions like these. Massive amounts of detailed sales data are collected today. The data is worth a lot of $$$ and companies sell this data so that market analysis companies can tell manufacturers how successful particular promotions were.
Again the volumes are so small that they could be considered marketing costs.

The PS3 needs to sustain its sales throughout the year beyond the 1st quarter and needs to expand its Blu-ray sales even more to keep pace with anticipated HD DVD lower priced player sales in the summer and beyond.

Its possible that this early batch of PS3 owners includes a lot of first adopter Blu-ray owners and that future PS3 buyers may not buy as many movies. Also Sony and other Blu-ray studios are being very aggressive with promotions an depriving that may not be sustainable.

You may consider PS3 arguments dead, but others including most gaming industry analysts disagree.


Nice Kosty...;0)

I'll say it again. I don't like people looking to save a few $$$ now screwing me out of 20 GB of capacity and 18 Mbps of bandwidth, especially when the prices of either format are going to go down to the same level.

If price is so important, stick with DVDs, or maybe VHS. ....and I don't want people obsessed by capacity that isn't needed screwing me out of having small content providers and older catalog titles economically released on HD instead of staying on plain old DVD forever because their not worth enough profit to replicate on Blu-ray. ;)

...especially when that space is squandered away with old codecs and lack of lossless audio.

....not to mention not using the best codec for the job because of politics or not using networking or internet options because of lack of mandatory inclusion in all players. :D

... and why do we care if stores don't like having to stock 2 different types of disc? They may just have to deal with it. Just like they stock widescreen and fullscreen DVD's, just like they stock Mac programs and PC programs, Just like they stock 15 different type of video games, they may have to stock 2 competing HD discs formats.

The PS3 needs to sustain its sales throughout the year beyond the 1st quarter and needs to expand its Blu-ray sales even more to keep pace with anticipated HD DVD lower priced player sales in the summer and beyond.So in the summer, HD DVD will overtake Blu-ray sales? Since now they're selling about equal, even when Blu-ray players are much more expensive... Summer brings the new Sony, and probably models from other manufacturers. Thus the price delta might be even smaller come summer. What then?

And, as asked on the previous page: Those buying the $299 player... Are they blissfully unaware of the HD DVD movie prices? The player may be $299, but will J6P buy a player then most new movies are in the $25-$30+ range? Or must movie pricing come down too, to really get things going? And then studios/manufacturers are where they were before the whole HD debacle started. Cheap players/cheap movies/little profit.... I don't know. Somethings not right with this picture.

Its possible that this early batch of PS3 owners includes a lot of first adopter Blu-ray owners and that future PS3 buyers may not buy as many movies. Also Sony and other Blu-ray studios are being very aggressive with promotions an depriving that may not be sustainable.

Ahh.. So before launch it was "Almost noone will use the PS3 as a movie player". Now it is "Future PS3 buyers may not by as many movies". All this as Blu-ray stand-alones are selling as well as HD DVD decks, and the spring collection of movies on Blu-ray is looking wee bit fresher than the competition. Well, as they were 6 months ago, interesting times ahead still. :)

... and why do we care if stores don't like having to stock 2 different types of disc? They may just have to deal with it. Just like they stock widescreen and fullscreen DVD's, just like they stock Mac programs and PC programs, Just like they stock 15 different type of video games, they may have to stock 2 competing HD discs formats.
But will they? Will they keep stocking both formats equally if one starts pulling ahead? (Of course, then there is Total HD. :eek: )

I'll give it a try.

The dark background has a seedy feel to it, a certain dank, like I just stepped into a strip club. ROFLMAO :D

Maybe I'll reserve the dark background for late night posting, after a few calming adult beverages and appropriate 'fluffer" music in the background. :cool:

But will they? Will they keep stocking both formats equally if one starts pulling ahead? (Of course, then there is Total HD. :eek: )


I don't know why they wouldn't.

No one complains that Walmart has to stalk PSP as will as DS portable games and players. And no one complains that Walmart has to stock PS2, PS3, Xbox, Xbox360, Nintendo, Gamecube, etc. No one feels sorry for Walmart having to stock software for Macs just like for PC's. No one cared when Walmart had to carry DVDs, as well as VHS, and the occasional UMD.

So why would someone who supports Blu-ray care if Walmart had to stock both formats? And the same question in reverse.

I think there must be some marketing behind this, trying to convince us consumers that there has to be a winner, that there has to be a war. In fact, I don't think that is the case at all. Just have all studios support all formats, put them in the stores, and let each person pick what they want.

We won't complain, for sure. But there is a limit to the total shelf space within each store, no? So why would you use shelf space to stock dust collectors? But I see your point, at least at Walmart... :)

Well... Is it that simple? You think? In an ideal world, maybe, but as far as I know, this ain't it! ;)

We won't complain, for sure. But there is a limit to the total shelf space within each store, no? So why would you use shelf space to stock dust collectors? But I see your point, at least at Walmart... :)

Well... Is it that simple? You think?


I don't know. Maybe we're being bamboozled. Because I don't really know why I should care if a store had to carry a BD copy of the movie as well as the HD DVD version I would use. I don't get mad that they carry all sorts of other things I have no use for. And I don't know why you wouldn't want them to carry an HD DVD version of the movie that I need.

I think the importance of having one side kill off the other has been exaggerated.

Well, I could give you a few reasons why one side should kill off the other.. ;)

Why I care? Because of there were less HD DVD titles, the would be more room for Blu-ray, of course!! But if they would promise to carry less DVD's instead, I would be fine with it. :)

Well, I could give you a few reasons why one side should kill off the other.. ;)

Why I care? Because of there were less HD DVD titles, the would be more room for Blu-ray, of course!! But if they would promise to carry less DVD's instead, I would be fine with it. :)

What if they agree to only sell over the internet, so we were buying form some warehouse in the middle of Nebraska that had plenty of room for both formats... would you stop trying to kill my beloved movie format then?

The cost of the fufillment rebate offers for HD DVD are minimal compared to the retail rebates direct to customers included in the PS3 box. But the actual acceptance rate isn't high enough to make much of a difference.What evidence do you have of that? Toshiba doesn't own Universal, so they can't just print movies and send them out. How much do you think they are paying Universal for these? Or do you think Universal is just giving their movies away? The rebates are just $10. I'm guessing that many of us skip them at that.

Maybe somebody can check if the PS3 rebates applied to "The Departed" because the arguments about sales, rebates, etc. wouldn't explain it selling better on BD than HD DVD, especially when it was the HD DVD that was mistakenly (from what I've heard) put on sale at Best Buy for less than the BD, even though it had the combo side that has to sell some discs, even though many people here dislike combos.

--Darin

Well, I could give you a few reasons why one side should kill off the other.. ;)

Why I care? Because of there were less HD DVD titles, the would be more room for Blu-ray, of course!! But if they would promise to carry less DVD's instead, I would be fine with it. :)

Ya just buy a A2 and shut up, you'll be glad you did, I'll be glad you did too. ;)

We won't complain, for sure. But there is a limit to the total shelf space within each store, no? So why would you use shelf space to stock dust collectors? But I see your point, at least at Walmart... :)

Well... Is it that simple? You think? In an ideal world, maybe, but as far as I know, this ain't it! ;)

Some Walmarts even have VHS uglying up the shelves. Wait, Walmart is inherently ugly anyway.

Ya just buy a A2 and shut up, you'll be glad you did, I'll be glad you did too. ;)
And surrender to the dark side? Never! (Don't worry, been home sick part of this week. Things are getting back to normal now, so my daily post count will go back to normal within a day or two.:))

Honestly Richard, I often don't know where you are coming from.Just saying that if someone took a poll vote of yours from a 1.5 years ago and said that you were bad at predicting you wouldn't take such a statement seriously. That's all.


As for the rest of your paragraph, yes a lot of people predicted BD was the winner then. And it was all over for HD DVD at CES, and Universal was about to go BD because of the lack of announced titles, and the shake up at Uni was a sure sign that HD DVD was done for, and the Videoscan numbers meant it was all over, and Studio Canal had gone BD so Universal was about to follow... etc.First off I would point out that some of the things you note were expected by a lot of people while others were expected only by a few. Also skogan you remember well enough predictions like this but you have to admit that this optimism is true of both sides. I remember a lot of HD DVD supporters using the player and movie sales last year to make the prediction that HD DVD was going to win. I also remember a few of them even stating that one or more of the major Blu-ray studios would become neutral at CES.


Really, there is an endless stream of people predicting the demise of HD DVD.Personally I think there are more Blu-ray supporters optimistic about it eventually winning this format war, but I am not so sure that is a bad sign.


You would, but your losing sight that these aren't mere predictions, they are an attempt to get as much negative HD DVD spin out there as possible, hoping that it will discourage future HD DVD purchasing habits.There are a few partisan supporters on both sides (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9941522&&#post9941522) of this format war. Also be careful not to confuse honest optimistic predictions with spreading negative spin against the other format. For instance many people are simply are just optimistic about the PS3 or cheap Chinese made HD DVD players.

There are a few partisan supporters on both sides (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9941522&&#post9941522) of this format war. Also be careful not to confuse honest optimistic predictions with spreading negative spin against the other format. For instance many people are simply are just optimistic about the PS3 or cheap Chinese made HD DVD players.


There's a fine line between "optimism" and over inflated in-your-face victory dances every ten minutes. I actually have only been here for a month, so I missed out on the same from the pre-PS3 HD DVD side.

There's a fine line between "optimism" and over inflated in-your-face victory dances every ten minutes. I actually have only been here for a month, so I missed out on the same from the pre-PS3 HD DVD side.I see, and I do think that a good number of Blu-ray supporters are having a lot of fun with the recent movie sales data that Blu-ray is getting. I can somewhat understand that though since a good number of HD DVD supporters last year also had a lot of fun with HD movie sales data, which was even smaller than the sales we have today.