This just didn't seem appropriate for the news thread. You've got to love the Brits. Warning this contains offensive language and statements that are insulting to all insiders. ;)

HD disk format wars are over
A clear victor emerges
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36574

I found your post very interesting in that I think it's educational in a number of ways.

We have a question here about Paramount and why they chose to release an HD-DVD VC1 encoded title with Mpeg2 when shipping the BD-50 version. I would think this would seem odd to everyone. After you've already spent the time and effort to do the VC1 encode, why go back and do it all over again with a different codec for the BD release?

So the question gets posed, and the responses come.

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Or perhaps Paramount felt that the MPEG2 encode was more faithful to the source and used it by choice rather than the VC1 stream for the HD DVD? I just want to know.

The response from Amir.......
I can't disclose the real reason but I can assure you that this is not the reason.

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
It seems a very odd move to release simultaneous BD/HD DVD at this time with different video encodes.

The response from Amir.......
Given public facts, I agree it seems odd. But given the non-public facts, it is not as much.

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Or perhaps Paramount felt that the MPEG2 encode was more faithful to the source and used it by choice rather than the VC1 stream for the HD DVD? I just want to know. It seems a very odd move to release simultaneous BD/HD DVD at this time with different video encodes.

The response from Penton-Man........
Paramount had to pay to have the MPEG2 stream encoded when they could have chosen to recycle the VC1 stream and reduce costs.
They were not incentivized in any way to use MPEG2; other than to achieve what they believed to be the best picture quality possible with this title.

So we seem to have conflicting statements from two sources. In a situation like this I believe it's always best to sit back and review what we know.

1. Paramount must have had some reason for going out of their way to do this.
2. If Paramounts motive was to produce a better looking movie for Blu-Ray (as Penton-Man implies), the effort was not successful (comments in the review describe the BD version looking a little coarser, but ultimately calling it a draw between formats).
3. Amir is saying that the decision was not made based on Paramounts belief that MPEG2 would be more faithful to the source. If Amir is correct, then there are no surprises for Paramount in the reviews of the finished product.
4. We know Amir is an insider because he is open about who he is and what he does. He's a supporter of VC1 and HD-DVD technologies because he is involved with their development, and benefits from their success. The statements he makes are publicly attributable to Amir Majidimehr Corporate Vice President, Consumer Media Technology Group, Microsoft.
5. We know Penton-Man is an insider because the Mods vouch for him as one. Statements he makes are publicly attributable to Penton-Man.

It's up to each of us to figure out what the significance is of the information we have.

It bears no significance that amir posts with his real name, despite what you are insinuating. He can be easily seen to be protecting his interests (dictated by his position, understandably), though with shrouded words.

If the Chinese have their way, the battle between HD-DVD and Blu-ray will be over before the war has even been able to be fought!

http://en.ce.cn/Insight/200612/25/t20061225_9869903.shtml

China has BILLIONS of people. China is going to do EVD, and not do HD-DVD nor Blu-ray at all! Hurray for China!

EVD:
1) Capacity of at least 50GB just like BD50
2) Players start at $150
3) A codec that rivals h.264 and VC-1 with compression for FREE, called VP7
4) Uses conventional red lasers just like DVD which is why players start at $150
5) Has a very good chance of catching on, because of:
a) has DRM features that make pirating much much harder than with dvd, piracy is huge problem in China.
b) by 2008 China plans to have all EVD and eliminate DVD!
c) China will only have ONE standard ( much better than two with HD-DVD and Blu-ray huh?) which will not cause some movies to be on one "format" or another like we are currently experiencing. Either a movie is available or it's not. END OF STORY. No more "get both players and stop being a format nazi"

I for one hope what I just said comes true so the madness ends. We as consumers are being played as fools and pawns. Its time something happened to stop this greed and power strides both Toshiba and Sony are taking. Everyone needs to act now while it's not too late.

No matter who wins I will not play this Blu-ray vs HD-DVD game. This isn't another "BETAMAX vs VHS", who are you all kidding? You're talking to all fellow videophiles here, since when was either even a viable format? When you're looking at degraded video quality for every play and nearly every release is "formated to fit your screen because we love you". Every single person who keeps buying either of these new formats is causing you and everyone else to lose. Both of these formats are losers, it's up to all of us to determine how long it takes before both are just a footnote in the history of HD.

Think about what factor is requiring high performance CPU. Without using that (but it introduces limited performance, or maybe even missing functionality), players could be cheaper.
The first and second generation Toshiba products could not be more different than each other from architectural point of view. Yet what you claim, has not come to pass. Both players play everything because we test these devices with titles before releasing them and should bugs come up, we have a complete system for updates.

Maybe you can explain how the varying performance in different BD players, with different architectures and interactivity profiles, will do better than HD DVD in content compatibility.

Back to Ron's comment, until he explains what he means, I have no idea how to answer. There is nothing specific there. And goes against data/logic already in the marketplace.

Let me add one more thing in the interest of fair reporting :). Both products are very, very complicated from point of view of achieving compatibility with titles. The HD DVD interactivity spec is some 800 pages and I can only imagine how many books are needed to describe BD-J/Live profiles. And since no one has invented the art of writing perfect software (:)), we have all undertaken a massive engineering effort to make these formats do what they are spec'ed to do.

BD's solution seems to be to stay away from the complicated parts until the dust settles. That is a good approach from product engineering, but of course, not so good in the eyes of the public and press. HD DVD is relying on close collaboration between its companies who are not direct competitors, to make sure discs and players move up together in compatibility and performance.

Both methods can hit potholes. This is why we made sure to also have a strong system for updates including standard networking on each player. This is how we keep Windows/Xbox working so given the new complexity required in these CE devices, same approach must be taken. Anything less is sticking one's head in the sand.

Finally, Rio is a bit right about performance and for that, I recommend reading my answer in the insider thread.

Originally Posted by benwaggoner
And there is no such plan. There's one HD DVD spec.
And there is one Blu-ray spec.

But no such plan? :rolleyes: Perhaps you could comment on the performance level 2 and 3 proposals for HD DVD players? Would content developed for those be 100% compatible with current HD DVD players?

? ? ?

b2b

? ? ?

b2b
Come again in English?

Well hold on a minute.

I've probably talked more about the profile confusion than just about anyone here, and I agree it's difficult to get a straight read on what the players today are capable of.

But where do you have evidence that not a single player released today will ever have a firmware upgrade to enable a single BD-Live feature?Hi Steve, with full respect, a BD player either meets the BD-Live spec, or it doesn't. It's not a question of whether it can do "a feature of BD-Live". If a BD player is not BD-Live compliant then it's not BD-Live compliant.

PiP is only one feature of BD-Live, but we already know that the first-gen BD players cannot do it, so they can never be BD-Live compliant.

The PS3 is still an open question in terms of BD-Live - "rah rah talk8r" says he's "pretty sure" that the PS3 will be able to be BD-Live compliant with firmware, but I'm sceptical.

Just as you do on your petition website, you're trying to use devious language to make an invalid point. Totally valid point - those BD standalone players are obsolete before they even get home.

Why do you limit your claim to standalone players? The PS3 has clearly outsold all other Blu-ray (and HD-DVD) players by a tremendous margin, and many of those will be used for BD playback.So are you advocating that BD fans ONLY buy the PS3, and that there are not "really" any BD players available, since you obviously want to pretend they are not there, just because one can buy a PS3?

How exactly were those hopes dashed? Because Sony didn't immediately claim BD-Live support? Are there no other possible reasons why Sony would wait to announce it? Are there other players which have announced BD-Live support which Sony is afraid of losing sales to? Are there BD-Live software titles currently available which won't sell if people don't think they have a player capable of supporting them? Is it not possible that Sony wants to save some announcements for spring when they'll be making announcements to maintain momentum? Is it not possible that the BD-Live spec may have compliance tests not yet in place for which Sony intends to wait before announcing support?Wheew - long paragraph there - but the short answer is that I don't think BD-Live is even READY yet. THAT's why - and until it is ready, Sony won't know whether the PS3 can be made to play it. There is also a chance that they will now "re-engineer" BD-Live to ensure that a PS3 can manage it, but we'll have to see.

I've just given you four very solid reasons why Sony might choose not to announce BD-Live support at the current time even if the PS3 is fully capable.Yet you didn't include the most likely reason - BD-LIVE AINT READY YET

You have yet to give me one reason why the PS3 is not technically capable of it. Thanks for raising the quality of discussion here. :confused:Capable of what? You can't aim for something you can't see, can you? BD-Live is about as visible as an Area 51 stealth program.

The more you post, the more it start to look like those posts are just an empty PR campaign - one really struggles to find any true insider technical value at all...

Totally valid point - those BD standalone players are obsolete before they even get home.

So are you advocating that BD fans ONLY buy the PS3, and that there are not "really" any BD players available, since you obviously want to pretend they are not there, just because one can buy a PS3?

Wheew - long paragraph there - but the short answer is that I don't think BD-Live is even READY yet. THAT's why - and until it is ready, Sony won't know whether the PS3 can be made to play it. There is also a chance that they will now "re-engineer" BD-Live to ensure that a PS3 can manage it, but we'll have to see.

Yet you didn't include the most likely reason - BD-LIVE AINT READY YET

Capable of what? You can't aim for something you can't see, can you? BD-Live is about as visible as an Area 51 stealth program.

The more you post, the more it start to look like those posts are just an empty PR campaign - one really struggles to find any true insider technical value at all...

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about the Perf-Level 2 & 3 for HD-DVD.. So far there are a few vague ramblings, but nothing that gives a real clue as to what they do or how they will alter the HD-DVD landscape.. I guess surprises are good for HD-DVD.. :)

b2b

There is no need for such a juvenille response. Honestly rdjam I don't mind a debate but when you "talk back" it is usually in the form of claims that you so often post but so rarely provide evidence for, personal opinions stated as though they were facts, and attacks against anyone that doesn't agree with what you believe.No, the attacks are yours.

Many people agree with me that non-BD-Live-compliant players are obsolete.

Do you have any evidence for that belief or is this a personal opinion?Easy, I said "many" BD fans were disappointed that the PS3 didn't support BD-Live, to which you said it was only "a few" - so whether they were "many" or "few", all of them were disappointed. Having to go three posts back and forth to explain the meaning of the obvious is rather retentive. :)

For someone that says this with such confidence it is telling that you had to add the term "anytime soon" to that statement. After all if you believed that HDi could do everything that BD-J could you wouldn't have bothered to put a time limit on that statement.It was sarcasm. For you to even attempt to compare BD-J and HDi is laughably ludicrous, let alone try to imply that BD-J is superior. HDi has a RAFT of things that BD-J can't even HOPE to contemplate, such as networking and Picture in picture.

Another personal opinion stated as though it was a fact.So you think that since the lowest common denominator of the Bluray format is BD-J that it's not a relevant point that those non-compliant players will ever be able to handle BD-Live??

Actually I was comparing the requirements of BD-Live to HD DVD in terms of players. You can't compare HDi, which is an interactive layer, to a player spec such as BD-Live. Also rdjam the most likely reason that you don't want to compare BD-Live to HD DVD is because BD-Live does have higher requirements than HD DVD and will be capable of more because of that.What are you trying to say?

BD-Live is a GHOST - there is nothing for anyone to be able to compare HDi to. Obviously the BDA, Sony, etc will be using HDi as the yardstick as they get BD-Live ready, but to call it a victor before it's even seen the light of day is SOOO typical of the Bluray hubris in this format war.

And to attempt to focus on this "future" battle, is a clear admission that you don't believe anything you are saying about BD-J being "potentially superior" to HDi...

after sluggin thru this thread two or 3 things stood out,

2 were comments by dr1394

1 being

The situation is worse for HD-DVD. Future players won't be able to play currently authored titles to their full potential.

Ron

2, was a hint that toshibas method of 1080p24 couold be ruff.

and finally the introduction of a performance critera that could affect playback.

Could someone explain this in more detail, as there is somthing going on in the HD-DVD camp that it sounds like we should know about. unless its spin of courseHi Gandley - I would classify the statement by 1394, as being without merit. It was probably an off-hand joke, since there is no reason that future HD DVD players would be any less capable that current ones. The HDi spec is a standard for a reason, for all players.

well that has always been my understanding, but whats all this performance 2,3 criteria?
dr1394, in the past, usually is quite accurate in what he says, thats what made me go sideways .

well that has always been my understanding, but whats all this performance 2,3 criteria?
dr1394, in the past, usually is quite accurate in what he says, thats what made me go sideways .

Here's a post that Amir did on the subject on the insiders questions thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9274141&&#post9274141

In a nutshell there are no performance levels 2 and 3 in existence today, but there are discussions on the subject. It seems these are more oriented around PCs. You can post any follow up questions you have on the insiders thread.

Hi Steve, with full respect, a BD player either meets the BD-Live spec, or it doesn't. It's not a question of whether it can do "a feature of BD-Live". If a BD player is not BD-Live compliant then it's not BD-Live compliant.

I'm not arguing what constitutes a fully -Live compliant player. In the interest of accurate information, I'm asking you to tell us what evidence you have for making THIS STATEMENT (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9259719&&#post9259719) of yours: "NONE of the current standalone BR players will EVER support any of the additional BD-Live features that may be added to discs latyer[sic] on (ahem, and which AREN'T there now either...)"


PiP is only one feature of BD-Live, but we already know that the first-gen BD players cannot do it, so they can never be BD-Live compliant.

By the use of your word "never", I must assume you are saying for a fact that the current players do not contain the hardware necessary to do PiP, and therefore cannot be firmware updated to support this feature. How do you know this for a fact for all released standalone BR decks?

This may be suspected, but I've never seen concrete proof of such.

The PS3 is still an open question in terms of BD-Live - "rah rah talk8r" says he's "pretty sure" that the PS3 will be able to be BD-Live compliant with firmware, but I'm sceptical.

Fair enough.... so if you are skeptical of the PS3, yet are stating absolutely that the CE decks cannot ever do PiP, I'll assume you have some hard evidence that allows you to make that distinction. Would you mind sharing?

Hi Gandley - I would classify the statement by 1394, as being without merit. It was probably an off-hand joke, since there is no reason that future HD DVD players would be any less capable that current ones. The HDi spec is a standard for a reason, for all players.

Well, until Ron clarifies what he meant, there's no way of telling.

I suspect, however, that he may be referring to some way in which future players ay support 24p output (specifcally how they handle IME), as opposed to what current players may be capable of.

For example: A Toshiba HD-A3 may be capable of decimating 60i-based PiP material to 24p for final output, whereas todays players may nto have hardware capable of doing that, and may simply diable PiP completely for 24p output.

(Please note: above example complete conjecture)

I'm not arguing what constitutes a fully -Live compliant player. In the interest of accurate information, I'm asking you to tell us what evidence you have for making THIS STATEMENT (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9259719&&#post9259719) of yours: "NONE of the current standalone BR players will EVER support any of the additional BD-Live features that may be added to discs latyer[sic] on (ahem, and which AREN'T there now either...)"

By the use of your word "never", I must assume you are saying for a fact that the current players do not contain the hardware necessary to do PiP, and therefore cannot be firmware updated to support this feature. How do you know this for a fact for all released standalone BR decks?

This may be suspected, but I've never seen concrete proof of such.



I guess I assumed that Rdjam was talking about the BD-Live interactive features.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/news/121006bdlive/

So, for those keeping score at home, the Video Business article makes it clear that "BD Live" interactivity features requiring broadband Internet connectivity were touted by the Blu-ray camp at CES 2006, this past January, and will be touted again at CES 2007 next month. Given that the Blu-ray camp knew well that these features loomed in BD's future, it makes one wonder why on earth players from Samsung, Panasonic and now Sony have shipped with no Ethernet connectivity (the listing on Philips' web site for its BD player makes no mention of Ethernet, and we've not seen it nor have we yet read any first hand reports on its connectivity).

The only BD players that I know have an ethernet port are the PS3 and the Pioneer. So they at least have the potential for a BD-Live upgrade down the road, but I don't think there have been commitments made for either platform. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that point. Personally I suspect it's likely the PS3 will get the upgrade, I'm not as confident about the Pioneer.

I didn't realize PiP was considered part of BD-Live. I guess if it's tied up with how it will be used for interactive content that would make sense.

I guess I assumed that Rdjam was talking about the BD-Live interactive features.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/news/121006bdlive/

So, for those keeping score at home, the Video Business article makes it clear that "BD Live" interactivity features requiring broadband Internet connectivity were touted by the Blu-ray camp at CES 2006, this past January, and will be touted again at CES 2007 next month. Given that the Blu-ray camp knew well that these features loomed in BD's future, it makes one wonder why on earth players from Samsung, Panasonic and now Sony have shipped with no Ethernet connectivity (the listing on Philips' web site for its BD player makes no mention of Ethernet, and we've not seen it nor have we yet read any first hand reports on its connectivity).

The only BD players that I know have an ethernet port are the PS3 and the Pioneer. So they at least have the potential for a BD-Live upgrade down the road, but I don't think there have been commitments made for either platform. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that point. Personally I suspect it's likely the PS3 will get the upgrade, I'm not as confident about the Pioneer.

I didn't realize PiP was considered part of BD-Live. I guess if it's tied up with how it will be used for interactive content that would make sense.

No ethernet port on all of the players besides the Pio?? Even the Sony? Well I didn't even know that.

Well that certainly narrows it down... and given the Pioneer manual page quote I posted earlier reagarding the lack of intaeractive support foo it's ethernet connector, it's looking less likely.

Thanks.

The first and second generation Toshiba products could not be more different than each other from architectural point of view.

...

Back to Ron's comment, until he explains what he means, I have no idea how to answer. There is nothing specific there.I suspect he's talking about SoC-based designs, which the A2 clearly isn't. Teardowns I've seen suggest the A2 has a 900MHz Pentium-family CPU, which is still far more CPU than any current SoC solutions, nor to my knowledge anything which has been announced. Do you expect that HD-DVD players will be unable to use SoC-based solutions until they ~1GHz CPU cores? If so that's a fairly significant cost Toshiba and friends will have to eat...

- Talk

I suspect he's talking about SoC-based designs, which the A2 clearly isn't.
That would be awful amount of speculation for someone to claim to know what the architecture of the next Toshiba player would be. Would you/Rio have guessed correctly the current machine's chip-set? I am pretty sure not.

Do you expect that HD-DVD players will be unable to use SoC-based solutions until they ~1GHz CPU cores?
- Talk
Well, as a competitor, you just have to wait to find out like the rest of the world :p.

If so that's a fairly significant cost Toshiba and friends will have to eat...
Oh good grief. We are back to this line again.... Bait not taken :D. Let's let the peace remain in this thread...

No ethernet port on all of the players besides the Pio?? Even the Sony? Well I didn't even know that.

Well that certainly narrows it down... and given the Pioneer manual page quote I posted earlier reagarding the lack of intaeractive support foo it's ethernet connector, it's looking less likely.

Thanks.

Very interesting, thanks for the info on the Pioneer ethernet port. So that leaves just the PS3 as a potential BD-Live candidate.

Rdjam is skeptical on the PS3....I think Sony will find a way to do it (though they haven't commited to it). I plan to ask Sony about this at CES. I'm not sure that they'll be able to answer though.

PiP is only one feature of BD-Live, but we already know that the first-gen BD players cannot do it, so they can never be BD-Live compliant.No, PiP is not a feature of BD-Live. Network connectivity defines BD-Live.
Totally valid point - those BD standalone players are obsolete before they even get home.Are you defining lack of network connectivity as "obsolete"? If so, are the >50% of HD-A1's not connected to a network also obsolete?
So are you advocating that BD fans ONLY buy the PS3, and that there are not "really" any BD players available, since you obviously want to pretend they are not there, just because one can buy a PS3?What a nonsensical statement. Buyers who want the prospect of BD-Live support should either wait until a player is available which explicitly claims BD-Live support, or they should buy a PS3 and be prepared to repurpose it if in fact it doesn't support BD-Live. Most early adopters want high-def A/V today and rate internet connectivity and other interactivity well down the list of features which they care about.
the short answer is that I don't think BD-Live is even READY yet. THAT's why - and until it is ready, Sony won't know whether the PS3 can be made to play it. There is also a chance that they will now "re-engineer" BD-Live to ensure that a PS3 can manage it, but we'll have to see.And this is based on your attendance at BDA meetings? Or on reports from your colleagues who attend BD meetings? Or you receive the presentations and meeting reports from those meetings? More likely this is your blind speculation, and based on the number of facts you have gotten wrong both here and on your petition site there is simply no reason to believe your insight on this topic is remotely credible.
You can't aim for something you can't see, can you? BD-Live is about as visible as an Area 51 stealth program.You pay your money and you can get the spec yourself (the same process for getting the HDi spec, incidentally). See the BDA License site (http://blu-raydisc.info) for details.
For you to even attempt to compare BD-J and HDi is laughably ludicrous, let alone try to imply that BD-J is superior. HDi has a RAFT of things that BD-J can't even HOPE to contemplate, such as networking and Picture in picture.BD-J supports both of those. You are confusing a platform specification (BD-J or HDi) with player features. It is unlikely HDi is capable of anything BD-J is not capable of, yet BD-J is almost certainly capable of many content types HDi is not. That the first HD-DVD players have features (PiP, networking) which many of the first Blu-ray features do not has little bearing on the relative capabilities of BD-J and HDi.

- Talk

Amir, do you know for sure about cost of both format players, especially the cost other than optical drive? Do you think 900MHz dual core Intel CPU + chipset + video/audio decoder chip does cost less than Sigma's SoC?

If the Chinese have their way, the battle between HD-DVD and Blu-ray will be over before the war has even been able to be fought!

http://en.ce.cn/Insight/200612/25/t20061225_9869903.shtml

China has BILLIONS of people. China is going to do EVD, and not do HD-DVD nor Blu-ray at all! Hurray for China! With a per-capita income of just over $1,700, I don't think the majority of billion+ Chinese are going to be in the market for high-def DVD anytime soon.
EVD:
1) Capacity of at least 50GB just like BD50According to the article it's 12GB. It's virtually inconceivable you could do 50GB with red laser.
5) Has a very good chance of catching on, because of:
a) has DRM features that make pirating much much harder than with dvd, piracy is huge problem in China.
b) by 2008 China plans to have all EVD and eliminate DVD!
c) China will only have ONE standard ( much better than two with HD-DVD and Blu-ray huh?) which will not cause some movies to be on one "format" or another like we are currently experiencing. Either a movie is available or it's not. END OF STORY. No more "get both players and stop being a format nazi"And unless the US studios support it, it will be a very nice standard for China and perhaps other Asian countries, but is unlikely to have any impact in the West.

- Talk

No, PiP is not a feature of BD-Live. Network connectivity defines BD-Live.
Are you defining lack of network connectivity as "obsolete"? If so, are the >50% of HD-A1's not connected to a network also obsolete?
What a nonsensical statement. Buyers who want the prospect of BD-Live support should either wait until a player is available which explicitly claims BD-Live support, or they should buy a PS3 and be prepared to repurpose it if in fact it doesn't support BD-Live. Most early adopters want high-def A/V today and rate internet connectivity and other interactivity well down the list of features which they care about......


Talkstr8t, in all fariness, there is something wrong with the fact that so many G1 BD players shipped without even an ethernet port. Let's put aside interactivity for a moment, these are new devices that will need software upgrades. Not including an ethernet port to make things a little less painful for those of us who choose to spend pretty large sums of money to be on the bleading edge is just wrong. In my mind, buying a player in either format without an ethernet port is a non-starter for this reason alone.

As for the interactivity aspect, it's a shame that the BD CEs chose to sell players to their early adopter customers that are incapable of being upgraded to BD-Live. I get your point about buyer be ware, but let's face it, that's a bad way to treat your highest paying customers. The folks who didn't know about BD-Live ahead of their purchase will feel burned when they find out.

In contrast G1 HD-DVD players can be software upgraded over the internet to have all of the same software features in the G2 players (inlcuding interactive functions).

It's these attitudes toward the customer that are so important to me.

Amir, do you know for sure about cost of both format players, especially the cost other than optical drive? Do you think 900MHz dual core Intel CPU + chipset + video/audio decoder chip does cost less than Sigma's SoC?
“For sure?” Of course not. I have no idea if Sigma cut Pioneer/Panasonic special pricing, or charge them a fortune given their limited volume. As for Toshiba, we didn’t design their hardware nor are we in charge of their purchasing department (although we did collaborate with them on the architecture of the device).

What I do know from years of designing hardware and managing development of such, is that a lot of variables go into cost of finished goods such as volume, newness, popularity, amount of competition for a part, and most importantly, the type of relationship between supplier and manufacturer. The latter is much more important in Japan than rest of the world.

The other thing I know is that Toshiba’s volume of product is much higher than these other companies using Sigma parts, that they are on a much faster design cycle (seeing how they came out with second gen in the amount of time it took for some to get to first gen), and do large amount of PC business which can given them an advantage in PC components. All of these things are very helpful for driving cost down.

Very interesting, thanks for the info on the Pioneer ethernet port. So that leaves just the PS3 as a potential BD-Live candidate.

Rdjam is skeptical on the PS3....I think Sony will find a way to do it (though they haven't commited to it). I plan to ask Sony about this at CES. I'm not sure that they'll be able to answer though.

Is SCEI or SCEA or any other Playstation-related business groups going to be at CES?

If you ask the people who made the BD standalone, would they know?

Is SCEI or SCEA or any other Playstation-related business groups going to be at CES?

If you ask the people who made the BD standalone, would they know?


I'll sit down to work out my itinerary later this week. I'm sure there will be lots of Playstation representation from Sony. It's one of the most important shows after all.

The HD A2 just showed up at my local Circuit City. They did not carry the HD A1 or HD XA1 or the RCA clone.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Toshiba-HD-DVD-Player-HDA2/sem/rpsm/oid/169466/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Does anyone think this increased availablity of HD DVD players will have any impact?

I suspect he's talking about SoC-based designs, which the A2 clearly isn't. Teardowns I've seen suggest the A2 has a 900MHz Pentium-family CPU, which is still far more CPU than any current SoC solutions, nor to my knowledge anything which has been announced. Do you expect that HD-DVD players will be unable to use SoC-based solutions until they ~1GHz CPU cores? If so that's a fairly significant cost Toshiba and friends will have to eat...

- Talk

Well, the A1 had a 2.4(?)Ghz core, so it looks like the current player software is running just fine with only 75% of the original clock with just one generation of optimization. And with a general purpose CPU at that.

Somehow I doubt that with SoC designs already incorporating DUAL RISC cores, dedicated decryption cores, dedicated gates for hash functions, acclerated video plane primitives, hardware video mixing, dedicated transport demuxes, audio decocders, and dual dedicated decoders that they aren't going to have a performant player. Especially when they explicitly target HD DVD players within their spec collateral.

Are you defining lack of network connectivity as "obsolete"? If so, are the >50% of HD-A1's not connected to a network also obsolete?

- Talk

Thanks for the chuckle, Talk.

While I don't necessarily agree with rdjam's categorization of BD players without advanced features as "obsolete", your attempt at logic turn-about is entertaining to say the least.

Let see here:

My trailer hitch curretly has no trailer on it, therefore it's useless to have one at all...

My MP3 player doesn't have an xtra memory card in it, therefore the slot is usless...

My AVR currently doesn't have an antenna attached, therefore the tuner in it will never be useful in the future...


The firewire port on my laptop doesn't.... shall I go on?


Do we really need to say here not utilizing a feature != absence of said feature?

Buyers who want the prospect of BD-Live support should either wait until a player is available which explicitly claims BD-Live support.

- Talk

Talk, first of all, let me apologize for breaking my response to your post up in to two seperate posts, but I wanted this question to stand alone.

You probalby have seen that the issues surrounding the communication fo profile support has been a bit of a pet subject of mine.

Can you give me your estimate of what percentage of the BD-buying public even KNOWS what BD-Live is?

I just posted this link on the news thread.

Console Shortage May Linger Well Into 2007
Analysts are not optimistic about upcoming console quantities
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5467

Some market analysts are now predicting that the console shortages will not ease until at least March. American Technology Research analyst Paul-Jon McNealy believes the PS3 drought will last through the June quarter, while the Wii shortage may be ease in the March quarter.

Sony picked up some good numbers in the last 48 hours before Christmas (300K more units according to nexgenwars.com).

I'll wait for January 1 before I sit down and review all of the sales numbers again.

The HD A2 just showed up at my local Circuit City. They did not carry the HD A1 or HD XA1 or the RCA clone.

My local Circuit City is not only now dealing Toshiba electronics for the first time in years, but as of last week, they are now carrying Universal HD DVDs, the first since launch.

It appears there has been some back room, or rather, boardroom, wheeling and dealing going on.

Quotes from Alex in the News thread:

-- Another round of BD-Video testing (well, technically the first RRT) will kick off Q2 '07, with the first BD-Live plugfest scheduled for Q3 '07 to boot, following on the heels of inside BD-Live testing in late Q2 '07. With that, I'll wager good money that BD-Live won't surface until Q4 '07.

-- There's a formal Blu-ray Disc LOGO GUIDE available now for BDA members...lots of pretty graphics and such...and there's a Blu-ray Disc Indication Guide, which "define(s) common indications related to Blu-ray Disc to help consumers distinguish the types of medias and its compatibility with the hardware"...so, the BDA is finally stepping up to the plate to help the consumer figure out BD-Video vs. BD-Live and the such...about time...the helpful consumer guide is available for download at http://www.blu-raydisc.info/license...censee_page.htm, but I think limiting its access to BDA members only will cut into its usefulness a bit...

Wow... something like 18 months months after initial introduction before we'll likely see significant #'s of BD-Live profile players, and still no public roadmap for the consumer.

Just sitting here at home curled up in a big easy chair by the fire. I'm reading my January 2007 edition of Stereophile and what do I come across? An interview with John Dawson President of Arcam. It doesn't seem to be available on line yet, but I'll pull a few gems out.

Interviewer: But the latest format war of HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray makes things doubly difficult for specialist companies.

JD: It is staggering that these two groups weren't able to get themselves together.

....I do have opinions on which is more fit for purpose as a replay medium, and it's not Blu-ray.

...As I understand it, BD was develloped not as a ROM, a playback only medium, but as a recording medium for Japanese high-definition television broadcasts. And because high definition in television in America and Japan is based on the older and relatively inefficient MPEG-2 video codec, you need very high data rates and lots of disc space to support the programming.

....So with these new codecs, VC-1 and H.264 there is no longer a need for all that amount of space in a replay or ROM format. But BD has already invested the time and effort in getting this to work for MPEG-2 video as a recording format - although all you can do is record off-air; you can't record off disc because of copyright issues - and they've now tried to adapt it as a replay-only format.

....The HD-DVD specification proposed by Toshiba and its partners and endorsed by the DVD forum is a substantial extension of today's DVD format. It's much cheaper to replicate the discs - you can modify existing production lines - and it's less hard to make the players. The disadvantage, if it has one, is less playing capacity, but with a modern video codec, that doesn't get in the way. With BD, you need totally new disc-manufacturing lines and more complex optical pickups, both of which add significant cost.

As to Arcam's potential entry into this market he says...

So what is the way forward right now? I really don't know. We have to watch and observe and see how it shakes out.

With a per-capita income of just over $1,700, I don't think the majority of billion+ Chinese are going to be in the market for high-def DVD anytime soon...- Talk
Talk, I don't know why you felt necessary to take a swipe at China like that, it's rather insulting. Yes, China has low per capita income, that does not mean there can not be a market for HiDef DVD. HDTV and HiDef DVD are strategic goals for Chinese CE manufacturers/government, that's the reason for EVD. Actually, if EVD does fail, China's plan B to get into HiDef DVD is HD DVD-China (BR is really not an option), whether you like it or not, China will have a significant impact on this war. The longer this war drags on, the bigger impact China will have.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5467

Some market analysts are now predicting that the console shortages will not ease until at least March. American Technology Research analyst Paul-Jon McNealy believes the PS3 drought will last through the June quarter,

If PS3 shortages last until June, how will affect the HD format wars?

If thats the case, and the PS3 is still the only player under $500, thats a big opportunity for the 2nd gen HD DVD players.

No, the attacks are yours.Come on rdjam you do have a tendency to go out of your way to attack Blu-ray and those that support it. I mean heck you even attack Blu-ray in your signature.


Many people agree with me that non-BD-Live-compliant players are obsolete.Even if we assume that is true how would that change the fact that it is a personal opinion that you posted merely as a way to attack Blu-ray?


Easy, I said "many" BD fans were disappointed that the PS3 didn't support BD-Live, to which you said it was only "a few" - so whether they were "many" or "few", all of them were disappointed. Having to go three posts back and forth to explain the meaning of the obvious is rather retentive.What you said in your last post was that "all expectations that the PS3 would be BD-Live compliant were dashed on launch". Instead of providing any evidence for that statement, or admitting that it was a personal opinion, you ignore the question.


It was sarcasm. For you to even attempt to compare BD-J and HDi is laughably ludicrous, let alone try to imply that BD-J is superior. HDi has a RAFT of things that BD-J can't even HOPE to contemplate, such as networking and Picture in picture.I am talking about interactivity that does not involve those two features. The fact that you have to fall back on those every time you say that HDi is superior to BD-J indicates that you are not as sure about HDi as you act. After all do you believe that everything that BD-J can do can also be done with HDi?


So you think that since the lowest common denominator of the Bluray format is BD-J that it's not a relevant point that those non-compliant players will ever be able to handle BD-Live??What you originally said, which was a personal opinion, was "and BD-Live, no matter what it can do, won't be anjoyed by the majority of Bluray owners, so is as good as irrelevant." Also of course I want people to know everything about both HD formats since I personally believe that most people would support Blu-ray if they did know everything about the two HD formats.


And to attempt to focus on this "future" battle, is a clear admission that you don't believe anything you are saying about BD-J being "potentially superior" to HDi...rdjam, you changed the topic again but I will answer that statement, which should have been a question. Personally I do think that BD-J is superior to HDi. I also think that HD DVD is currently better in terms of networking, PiP, and persistent storage than Blu-ray. Long term though I like the fact that Blu-ray will have higher requirements for PiP video and that BD-Live has higher requirements for persistent storage. Also I personally consider the long term to be more important than the short term since I think the winning format will be around for at least 10 years.

Ye gads, both of you guys need to have a drink of egg nog.

Suggest a time out on that subject?

Can you give me your estimate of what percentage of the BD-buying public even KNOWS what BD-Live is?No idea. For those who are educated consumers (i.e. have researched Blu-ray and HD-DVD in making a purchase decision), I'd guess the majority know that there is upcoming Blu-ray support for networking and would know whether their choice of player has a network connection. For those who haven't done much research, or buy on impulse, it's certainly conceivable that a majority don't have awareness of future network-dependent content. I have no idea what the relative proportion of these two customer types is.

Talk, I don't know why you felt necessary to take a swipe at China like that, it's rather insulting. Yes, China has low per capita income, that does not mean there can not be a market for HiDef DVD.No swipe intended, just the reality that in many parts of the world there simply isn't sufficient disposable income to support a clear luxury like HD optical media. Of course there are many wealthy Chinese (by absolute number, not percentage) who can afford this, but to imply that the Chinese market for high-def optical media is 4x the USA's because China has 4x the population would be absurd.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5467


If PS3 shortages last until June, how will affect the HD format wars?

If thats the case, and the PS3 is still the only player under $500, thats a big opportunity for the 2nd gen HD DVD players.

I was about to click unsubscribe to this thread until I saw your post and realized that some people here might actually want to discuss things that have a chance of having an impact with the general public. Most of the techno-babble here, while interesting, probably won't have any impact on what happens in the wider marketplace.

I posted earlier that here, in NYC suburbs, I wasn't seeing much in the way of advertising for HD-DVD, but that I was seeing BD ads.

I can't see anyone who wants to watch movies, but not play games, buying a PS3 just for movies. I also would think that if what you are quoting is accurate, this is a real chance for HD-DVD to grab market share as the 2nd gen Toshibas can be had for under $500.

Didn't Betamax have superior video quality to VHS? I can't help but believe that the format supported by companies that read the market correctly, and feed it what it wants, will win the overall format war.

Why is BR not an option at all for China?

Why is BR not an option at all for China?The BDA rebuffed Chinese inquiries; the DVD Forum bent over backwards to get them in talks. It's as simple as that: politics.

No idea. For those who are educated consumers (i.e. have researched Blu-ray and HD-DVD in making a purchase decision), I'd guess the majority know that there is upcoming Blu-ray support for networking and would know whether their choice of player has a network connection. For those who haven't done much research, or buy on impulse, it's certainly conceivable that a majority don't have awareness of future network-dependent content. I have no idea what the relative proportion of these two customer types is.


Well, that mans there is some fraction of folks whe research CE purchases, and then a fraction of that group knows of networking support (I had asked about "BD-Live", but OK)

Now, I'll be generous and say that because it's a high-dollar item, that maybe 50% of people who buy BD gear will read up on it rather than just ask the sales-droids. Given the fact that the profile issue is almost NOWHERE to be found in any pre-sales documentation(see my previous posts on this)*, I'll be extremely generous and say 1 in 5 knows of BD-Live and it's implications.

That means (generously) 1 in 10 buyers knows of BD-Live. Don't you feel that it's a bit disingenuous to expect (in your words), " Buyers who want the prospect of BD-Live support should either wait until a player is available which explicitly claims BD-Live support, or they should buy a PS3 and be prepared to repurpose it if in fact it doesn't support BD-Live."

* Incidentally, I've now spoken to 11 B&M store emplyees, and 5 friends I know who are generally in to A/V gear (including one who does professional installation of PJ's for large-vunue cutom diaplays, like museum exhibits), and not one of them has ever heard of the profile issue.

I'm in no position to guarantee that. However, I'm not aware of any title which doesn't work on all players. I think it's unlikely we'll see a future title which doesn't work on all players. There may well be individual features which don't work (by design or due to a bug), but I fully expect the movie itself will always work.
The firmware updates may in fact be analogous, but until we know what's in Sony's update we can only speculate.

Well, I was letting this go here as we had in some way "agreed to disagree" on the nature if the fixes for the various players, and then Alex posts (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9282167&&#post9282167) in the Insiders thread that The Descent wont's even play on the Pio and Sony, and not on the original firmware Samsung.

Please to be explaining your assertion that the movie will always work?

(please note: I am holding fast to my original assertion that fixes are to be expected, and that they don't necessarily mean an incomplete interactivity subsystem. This is in contreast to your assertion that if a movie requres a firmware fix to play, it is eveidence of an incomplete interactive layer..)

Why is BR not an option at all for China?I am not so sure that Blu-ray won't eventually become common in China, but a reason that HD DVD is a bit more acceptable is because the DVD Forum agreed to make a Chinese version of the HD DVD format. Besides a slight physical change in the disc format it also includes a cheap to use video codec made in China that is called AVS (Advanced Audio Video Coding Standard). Basically AVS is a simplified version of MPEG-4 AVC which avoids most of the royalties attached to it. The Chinese version of HD DVD isn't compatible with normal HD DVD because of the differences between the two.

Just to add to this but I have read that many Chinese CE manufacturers still hope to make EVD the standard in China. Supposedly over 50 EVD player models were recently released with prices as low as $80.

The BDA rebuffed Chinese inquiries;

Ahhh, the Paris Hilton theory of diplomacy. They know what they have to do so we aren't going to talk until they comply.

the DVD Forum bent over backwards to get them in talks. It's as simple as that: politics.

Politics is not always the same as diplomacy.

scaesare,
I think Alex already know the answer of it, doesn't he?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9100693&&#post9100693

C'mon Alex, BDP-S1 out of the box plays Speed, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen which are both BD-J titles. At least those are working maybe as same level as U-Control titles on Toshiba@1.2 and 1.4 :). My A1 with 1.2 even didn't play feature of King Kong at all, just played first Universal HD DVD logo and stopped with error message, so I was forced to update the player, though.

Updates will be required for all next gen players including Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, PS3, also Toshiba and Xbox360 add-on to address/fix imcompatibilities or bugs. Those formats are quite complex to be bug free.I agree 100%. I have posted in other threads that both BD-J and HDi are works in progress. There's nothing wrong with that in my book.

I just wanted to call Talk out (yet again) for preaching so voraciously from the mountain that all Blu-ray players are de facto BD-J compliant. They are not. He called me out when I intimated the Sammy wasn't (it was released before the compliance disc was locked down), and voila, it wasn't. Now Sony admits the BDP-S1 isn't BD-J compliant. The Pioneer has issues as well (go figure :)).

scaesare,
I think Alex already know the answer of it, doesn't he?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9100693&&#post9100693

For that, you'll have to ask Alex.

I'm asking Talk to explain his position that we won't see any BD Movies fail to play in BD players, just perhaps features that might not work:

I think it's unlikely we'll see a future title which doesn't work on all players. There may well be individual features which don't work (by design or due to a bug), but I fully expect the movie itself will always work.

I was about to click unsubscribe to this thread until I saw your post and realized that some people here might actually want to discuss things that have a chance of having an impact with the general public. Most of the techno-babble here, while interesting, probably won't have any impact on what happens in the wider marketplace.

I posted earlier that here, in NYC suburbs, I wasn't seeing much in the way of advertising for HD-DVD, but that I was seeing BD ads.

I can't see anyone who wants to watch movies, but not play games, buying a PS3 just for movies. I also would think that if what you are quoting is accurate, this is a real chance for HD-DVD to grab market share as the 2nd gen Toshibas can be had for under $500.

Didn't Betamax have superior video quality to VHS? I can't help but believe that the format supported by companies that read the market correctly, and feed it what it wants, will win the overall format war.

Agreed. We bicker at times about the finer points between the two technologies, but the format war won't be won or lost over these details.

As you said, the side that reads and responds to the market better will likely win. There are many factors that tie into that and the BD group does better on some of those while HD-DVD does better on others. This continues to be a tight race and I firmly believe headed toward universal players in the end. In the absence of a decisive victory for A or B, I believe the response from some CEs will be A+B. I also believe the consumer response will be favorable to that option as well.

As to the PS3, I believe it will sell in small numbers to people buying it specifically for use as a BD player. Different people have different opinions on this point of course. Where the rubber meets the road is sales of discs though. If the box doesn't move BD discs, then it's a non-factor in the format war.

It's still too early to know the actual impact it will have, but I continue to watch the latest data reflecting sales on amazon.com for clues. By the end of March we should get an idea of the true impact based on early PS3 sales.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

Agreed. We bicker at times about the finer points between the two technologies, but the format war won't be won or lost over these details.

As you said, the side that reads and responds to the market better will likely win. There are many factors that tie into that and the BD group does better on some of those while HD-DVD does better on others. This continues to be a tight race and I firmly believe headed toward universal players in the end. In the absence of a decisive victory for A or B, I believe the response from some CEs will be A+B. I also believe the consumer response will be favorable to that option as well.

As to the PS3, I believe it will sell in small numbers to people buying it specifically for use as a BD player. Different people have different opinions on this point of course. Where the rubber meets the road is sales of discs though. If the box doesn't move BD discs, then it's a non-factor in the format war.

It's still too early to know the actual impact it will have, but I continue to watch the latest data reflecting sales on amazon.com for clues. By the end of March we should get an idea of the true impact based on early PS3 sales.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

Well here on AVS 298 out of 440 report owning the PS3 for movie viewing... :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4170

b2b

I can't see anyone who wants to watch movies, but not play games, buying a PS3 just for movies.After a week of experience with my new PS3, I disagree. It works very well as a standalone player (just stick in the disc and it works), with the added bonus of being a very competent media center. With the built-in hard drive you can automatically rip 100's of CD's, store 1000's of photos, etc. If DVD upsampling support emerges as has been discussed, I think this will be a very compelling player even for those with no interest in the gaming side of the console. I agree there is an education process, but the PS3 works far better as a standalone Blu-ray player than I would have expected.

That means (generously) 1 in 10 buyers knows of BD-Live. Don't you feel that it's a bit disingenuous to expect (in your words), " Buyers who want the prospect of BD-Live support should either wait until a player is available which explicitly claims BD-Live support, or they should buy a PS3 and be prepared to repurpose it if in fact it doesn't support BD-Live." I'm not drawing a distinction between knowing about network support versus knowing about BD-Live. Whether or not a consumer knows what BD-Live is, if they know that some content will make use of a network connection and that some players don't support a network connection, I think that qualifies as an educated consumer.

As has been reported elsewhere activity is taking place within the BDA to help better educate consumers as to the profiles, so we're on the right track.

- Talk

Well, I was letting this go here as we had in some way "agreed to disagree" on the nature if the fixes for the various players, and then Alex posts (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9282167&&#post9282167) in the Insiders thread that The Descent wont's even play on the Pio and Sony, and not on the original firmware Samsung.

Please to be explaining your assertion that the movie will always work?That was my expectation. I agree it appears there is an issue; whether it's software-related or media-related (as with the Speed discs) remains to be seen, but if it is software-related than I was clearly incorrect. Nonetheless, I expect it will be a rare occurrence for titles to simply not play.

After a week of experience with my new PS3, I disagree. It works very well as a standalone player (just stick in the disc and it works), with the added bonus of being a very competent media center. With the built-in hard drive you can automatically rip 100's of CD's, store 1000's of photos, etc. If DVD upsampling support emerges as has been discussed, I think this will be a very compelling player even for those with no interest in the gaming side of the console. I agree there is an education process, but the PS3 works far better as a standalone Blu-ray player than I would have expected.

I agree with what you are saying, but you compare us geeks here on the forum with the average user. I don't know anyone who isn't a gamer who will go out and buy a gaming unit that doesn't have a standard remote control, to just watch movies.

I'm not saying it doesn't work well -- I happen to have a PS3 and an HD-A2, but as a business person and as someone who has plenty of non-tech friends and relatives, I can't think of a single one who would go out and buy this for the express purpose of watching movies if there are HD-DVD players in the same price range.

Honestly, I can't see my mother or father sitting there with the PS3 controller trying to watch a movie. If they really want to appeal to these people, they should toss in a cheap remote control and market it a little differently.

In terms of ripping CDs and storing/viewing photos, from a purely business perspective, I can't see a significant market share moving away from their PC's to do this in any short period of time. Change of this type takes time, and time is something you don't have a lot of if you are in a format war.

Rachel

Well here on AVS 298 out of 440 report owning the PS3 for movie viewing... :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4170

b2b

We own one and have watch a movie on it -- but we did not buy it to watch movies, it was purchased for gaming. The point of the discussion was if non-gamers would make the purchase for watching movies. The poll doesn't address this.

As you said, the side that reads and responds to the market better will likely win. There are many factors that tie into that and the BD group does better on some of those while HD-DVD does better on others. This continues to be a tight race and I firmly believe headed toward universal players in the end. In the absence of a decisive victory for A or B, I believe the response from some CEs will be A+B. I also believe the consumer response will be favorable to that option as well.

If we end up with universal players, is there any advantage to the consumer for discs in two formats?

If there are universal players, why would any distributor produce both, and/or how would they choose which discs to continue producing?

I am definitely interested in seeing how this plays out...

Anyone?

That was my expectation. I agree it appears there is an issue; whether it's software-related or media-related (as with the Speed discs) remains to be seen, but if it is software-related than I was clearly incorrect. Nonetheless, I expect it will be a rare occurrence for titles to simply not play.

Man you get terse at times like this. ;)

Hoever, you were using the fact that some HD DVD titles wouldn't play without firmware upgrades as likely evidence that HDi was originally incomplete, whereas the Sonly fixes you categorized as minor and only fixing feature issues.

Based on your own criteria for surmising what you did regarding HDi, are you also now also of the same mind that BD-J is not complete on early BD players?

If we end up with universal players, is there any advantage to the consumer for discs in two formats?
It'll allow the consumer to choose which features they want. If BD doesn't take advantage of the extra space to provide more features, then there is no advantage to the consumer.

If there are universal players, why would any distributor produce both, and/or how would they choose which discs to continue producing?

The studios will continue to produce for the formats that they're currently aligned with until the market for one format becomes too small to make a profit. Some will make the jump sooner than others. If HD DVD turns out to be the winner, I see Sony being the last to offer movies for HD DVD.

I'm not drawing a distinction between knowing about network support versus knowing about BD-Live. Whether or not a consumer knows what BD-Live is, if they know that some content will make use of a network connection and that some players don't support a network connection, I think that qualifies as an educated consumer.

As has been reported elsewhere activity is taking place within the BDA to help better educate consumers as to the profiles, so we're on the right track.

- Talk

Well, you know what's funny? I was at Best Buy this afternoon, and saw a BD demo disc running I had not seen before. It was espousing the benefits of BluRay, and actually contained the words BD-Live, both on screen and the announcer's voice. It then continued with demo's, inlcuding netowrk interactivity, and PiP. Very impressive.

Ready for the ironic part?

It was running on the Panasonic. It supports neither PiP nor network connectivity, right? There were also Samsung and Sony players in the store, no network jacks on them either. Funny, this disc didn't say anything about that stuff.

I'm telling you, BDA better do somthing with that roadmap document they are authoring besides keeping it in a password protected portion of an obscure web server.

Well here on AVS 298 out of 440 report owning the PS3 for movie viewing... :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4170

b2b

It is pretty apparent that for those wishing to view BD, the PS3 is the player of choice.

In the past you have repeatedly pointed out that Toshiba's $500 "subsidized" player was damaging to HD in that it made it unattractive to other CE vendors to produce a HD player. In light of that, what is your assessment of the impact that Sony's $500 subsidized player is going to have on CE companies in the BD arena?

If we end up with universal players, is there any advantage to the consumer for discs in two formats?

If there are universal players, why would any distributor produce both, and/or how would they choose which discs to continue producing?

I am definitely interested in seeing how this plays out...

Anyone?

Well Toshiba came with very aggressive pricing and their players haven't caught on beyond the enthusiasts.

So a universal player, which would necessarily have to be more expensive, is going to have a better chance?

Universal player is a kludge, a wish by people who want more studio support for the format of their choice. It would make more sense to just buy several HD-DVD players and hope the studios will have reason to support HD-DVD.

In the absence of a decisive victory for A or B, I believe the response from some CEs will be A+B. Funny, even though they both used 1/2-inch tape, I don't recall ever seeing a VHS/Beta player or recorder. There were a few units that had both but they had two separate decks in one cabinet.

In the case of the VHS vs. Beta war, the prime reasons for Beta's demise included:
1. Misjudgement of consumer needs - the original Beta only allowed 1 hour recording vs. VHS's 2 hours.
2. Manufacturer support - basically only Sony/Zenith and Sanyo in the Beta camp, Matsushita, JVC, Hitachi, Sharp, RCA and more in the VHS camp. (This does not bode well for HD DVD).
3. No clear technical superiority for either side - although Beta had a slightly superior picture, on most TV's it was very subtle.

Unless some manufacturers are willing to eat some major crow, I doubt if we will ever see a successful dual-format player.

If we end up with universal players, is there any advantage to the consumer for discs in two formats?

No, only in that some titles will only be available in one format or the other for some time. I don't see Sony Pictures abandoning BD or Universal Pictures abandoning HD-DVD.

Well, there maybe one unintended benefit. Continued competition between the format backers and codec makers for the best picture quality.

If there are universal players, why would any distributor produce both, and/or how would they choose which discs to continue producing?

Let me start by saying that all of this is predicated on the opinion that neither format will score a knock out punch against the other and will therefore buy time for universal players to make it to market. I strongly believe this is the case. If you have the January 2007 issue of The PerfectVision, look at the news piece on page 12 (HiDef Format War Averted).

In the short term the studios that are neutral and producing in both formats will continue to do so, simply because most of the installed base supports A or B but not both.

Once a CE ships the first universal player, two things happen. First the concept of a universal player changes from talk to reality, this has a further impact on consumer perception and buying decisions. Second it puts every stand alone player on a lower rung than the universal player in the eyes of the average consumer. After the first universal player ships, most of the other CEs will not want to be left out and will want to bring their own universal players to market.

This all ends up drawing out the adoption cycle of high definition discs in general as many consumers will wait for universal players to hit the price point that they're comfortable with.

In the longer term with a scenario where universal players are the majority of the high definition disc installed base, I believe many of the studios will opt for HD-DVD as it offers them a less expensive migration from DVD with cheaper and faster replication than BD. It also offers the studios the option to begin shipping newer titles on hybrid discs (DVD on one side and HD-DVD on the other). Hybrid discs become interesting later on in the adoption cycle as costs of high definition discs drop closer to the price of a DVD and the studios see further cost savings in producing a single disc in a single case for both markets.

BD will continue to survive because Sony Pictures will continue to release discs exclusively in that format for a long time. It even has the potential to stage a comeback if Sony can find clever ways of differentiating their format.

I am definitely interested in seeing how this plays out...

Anyone?

Yes, that's true for all of us here. :)

It is pretty apparent that for those wishing to view BD, the PS3 is the player of choice.

In the past you have repeatedly pointed out that Toshiba's $500 "subsidized" player was damaging to HD in that it made it unattractive to other CE vendors to produce a HD player. In light of that, what is your assessment of the impact that Sony's $500 subsidized player is going to have on CE companies in the BD arena?
I don't think you are going to see a bunch of 2G BD players priced @ $1k unless they have features to warrant the price. :)

At least they don't have to compete with MS selling $200 HD-DVD addons.. ;) 269 out of 670 for HD-DVD owners here on AVS (the exact same # as HD-A1 ? )..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4167

b2b

At least they don't have to compete with MS selling $200 HD-DVD addons.. ;) 269 out of 670 for HD-DVD owners here on AVS (the exact same # as HD-A1 ? )..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4167

b2b
Doesn't seem to have impacted Toshiba sales though. Every store in our area is selling out all the A2s they are getting. Remember that there is good bit of differentiation between our product and that of A2. Not so in case of BD players currently. In addition, A2 is competitively priced, whereas the BD players are not relative to PS3.

I don't think you are going to see a bunch of 2G BD players priced @ $1k unless they have features to warrant the price. :)
b2b

My point remains. You said HD CEs couldn't compete with a $500 HD player. How are BD CEs going to compete with a $500 BD player (ie PS3)?

For me HD-DVD is ahead. HD-A1 + Xbox 360 addon on HTPC working great, low cost and most of the titles I want are on HD-DVD. Hasn't disappointed me since I got it in late spring. Blu-ray of course has better potential for raw storage and future growth. I am annoyed at all the over-hype from the BDA. If they weren't insane in their pre-production claims and in their treatment of their potential customers then they wouldn't be hated nearly as much as they are at the moment.

In the end however what I think will be the likely outcome is dual-format players and both formats co-existing similar to DVD+/-R/RW. That particular war lasted what 2-3 years? Oddly enough it was Sony that helped put an end to it with their dual-format burner. DVD+ eventually achieved parity with DVD- in cost and availabilty, and eventually surpassed DVD- in burn speed and dual-layer ability, but both are here to stay. Likewise at this point neither HD-DVD nor Blu-ray is going to disappear as both sides have things that enough people like right now. There is also enough media availability to sustain both sides indefinitely at this point. This is not like the old payperview DivX vs DVD or the VHS vs Beta battle anymore.

As soon as a reasonably priced and decent performing dual format HD-Disc player comes out the war will really be over. It is already a reality with HTPCs just not at a viable price/availabilty/ease of use point yet for CE. But even if CE's are slow or both sides refuse to cooperate, PC hardware will eventually force the BDA and HD-DVD sides to co-exist more peacefully. The addon-drive price will drop to the level that it is only $50-200 to have BOTH drives in a decent Media Center box. There is a huge push from the software/computer industry to replace standalone players with Media Centers.

To this end I see the true winner regardless of what happens to be Microsoft.

Funny, even though they both used 1/2-inch tape, I don't recall ever seeing a VHS/Beta player or recorder. There were a few units that had both but they had two separate decks in one cabinet.

Different cassette size between VHS and Beta. To further complicate things the heads were different. Optical is a whole different story. Whether it's BD or CD the disc size is the same, and a single laser can be designed to read all formats.

In the case of the VHS vs. Beta war, the prime reasons for Beta's demise included:
1. Misjudgement of consumer needs - the original Beta only allowed 1 hour recording vs. VHS's 2 hours.

DVRs are the technology of choice today. Whether it's cable or satellite, this is where consumers are going.

2. Manufacturer support - basically only Sony/Zenith and Sanyo in the Beta camp, Matsushita, JVC, Hitachi, Sharp, RCA and more in the VHS camp. (This does not bode well for HD DVD).

Don't forget that one of the big reasons this helped was that the greater competition on the VHS side pushed prices down faster than on the Beta side. Even without the price element this is an advantage for BD currently. It would be a much bigger advantage if it actually translated into aggressively priced players.

3. No clear technical superiority for either side - although Beta had a slightly superior picture, on most TV's it was very subtle.

Well, the title reviews speak for themselves. Certainly BD has no picture quality advantage over HD-DVD. If anything..... ;)

Unless some manufacturers are willing to eat some major crow, I doubt if we will ever see a successful dual-format player.

The only ones who I believe are rock solid are Toshiba and Sony. Any of the others could choose to ship a universal player as soon as they believe they can pull it off and turn a profit. Keep in mind that Denon is still on the side lines as well, and all those BD CEs haven't lost sight of that either.

My point remains. You said HD CEs couldn't compete with a $500 HD player. How are BD CEs going to compete with a $500 BD player (ie PS3)?By enlarging the tent. The existence of the PS3 means there are millions more BD-capable homes, hence the studios will sell more content, prices for both media and hardware will fall, and the format will be much more widely adopted. This in turn makes for a better market for other manufacturers, given that the PS3 will not appeal to certain consumer segments of the market. Also, since the PS3 clearly costs far more to make than most standalone players (due to Cell, hard drive, and very fast RAM), lower manufacturing costs of the standalones will in time lead to lower prices than the subsidized PS3.

Hoever, you were using the fact that some HD DVD titles wouldn't play without firmware upgrades as likely evidence that HDi was originally incomplete, whereas the Sonly fixes you categorized as minor and only fixing feature issues.

Based on your own criteria for surmising what you did regarding HDi, are you also now also of the same mind that BD-J is not complete on early BD players?No. I have first-hand knowledge of the state of the BD-J specification as it has been implemented in the 1G devices and have no reason to believe there are any missing pieces. Whether playback problems are caused by platform bugs, authoring bugs, or performance issues isn't clear, but I have no evidence they are due to unimplemented portions of the BD-J spec.

While I no longer have first-hand knowledge of the HDi specs or implementations, I have been told by those who do (studio developers) that there are major pieces which were simply not implemented in the initial HD-A1 releases; Toshiba's own press release noting that a firmware upgrade would be required to enable network content suggests the same.

I agree with what you are saying, but you compare us geeks here on the forum with the average user. I don't know anyone who isn't a gamer who will go out and buy a gaming unit that doesn't have a standard remote control, to just watch movies.

I'm not saying it doesn't work well -- I happen to have a PS3 and an HD-A2, but as a business person and as someone who has plenty of non-tech friends and relatives, I can't think of a single one who would go out and buy this for the express purpose of watching movies if there are HD-DVD players in the same price range.I don't disagree with you. But a few nights ago at a family get-together I spent time talking about Blu-ray and the PS3 to a friend of an in-law who is in the market for a new HDTV. When I first started discussing the PS3 he said "I'm not into games, I don't think I'd want that". After discussing its Blu-ray and media features and that, other than needing to buy a separate remote to avoid using the wonky gaming controller, you can basically ignore the fact it's a great gaming console, he was definitely interested in getting one. I then moved into a conversation about Karoake Revolution and piqued his interest further, as he's a big Karaoke fan but never had considered that a gaming console might cater to his interests.

Which all confirms what you said, the PS3 would have to be marketed differently than it currently is to attract a non-gamer. But this is certainly an option available to Sony if/when they choose to enlarge the target market this way, and in the meantime even without such focused marketing efforts I believe there will be large numbers of PS3's sold to non-gamers.

- Talk

By enlarging the tent. The existence of the PS3 means there are millions more BD-capable homes, hence the studios will sell more content, prices for both media and hardware will fall, and the format will be much more widely adopted. This in turn makes for a better market for other manufacturers, given that the PS3 will not appeal to certain consumer segments of the market. Also, since the PS3 clearly costs far more to make than most standalone players (due to Cell, hard drive, and very fast RAM), lower manufacturing costs of the standalones will in time lead to lower prices than the subsidized PS3.

To be fair, I agree with all of your points Talk (with one caveat). Subsidized players are good for both formats at this stage. It's a competition to win marketshare at this point. The one caveat is that exactly how much positive impact PS3 generates to actually help lower BD media and hardware prices is a big question mark. We're all waiting to find out the answer to that question.

I also understand why crussader asks his question. At the time of the A1s release, BD supporters were playing up the damage a subsidized $499 player would do to HD-DVD. I believe he is looking for some intellectual honesty here. To those folks who said a subsidized $499 A1 was bad for HD-DVD, how can you say a subsidized $499 PS3 is good for BD?

I don't know if you spoke out against the subsidized A1 or not.

No. I have first-hand knowledge of the state of the BD-J specification as it has been implemented in the 1G devices and have no reason to believe there are any missing pieces. Whether playback problems are caused by platform bugs, authoring bugs, or performance issues isn't clear, but I have no evidence they are due to unimplemented portions of the BD-J spec.

While I no longer have first-hand knowledge of the HDi specs or implementations, I have been told by those who do (studio developers) that there are major pieces which were simply not implemented in the initial HD-A1 releases; Toshiba's own press release noting that a firmware upgrade would be required to enable network content suggests the same.


-SIGH-

Why all the song and dance about firmware updates needed before discs playing being bad for HD DVD yet not bad for BD, etc...? It just makes it look like you are trying to cast aspersions on one side.

Don't try and play us. Give us the straight dope, we can handle it.

"HD DVD may have been missing API implementations and BD shipped broken ones. Expect Fixes." - OK

Seriously. I WANT content that may only be on BD. I DON'T want to be played for a sucker.

You are one of our best shots for straight info. Please give it to us without the coloration.

Wii slaughters PS3 in holiday sales

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/12/27/nintendo_wii_sales/


According to http://www.vgcharts.org/

The Wii outsold PS3 2 to 1 in Japan and almost 3 to 1 world wide.


According to http://nexgenwars.com/

The Wii outsold PS3 by 2.5 to 1 world wide.


I'm saving the Xbox360 numbers for a year end recap, but I think you all know there were more Xbox360s sold world wide since 11/17 than PS3s.

Sticking to my prediction. This is where the PS dynasty ends.

...(clip) the PS3 would have to be marketed differently than it currently is to attract a non-gamer. But this is certainly an option available to Sony if/when they choose to enlarge the target market this way, and in the meantime even without such focused marketing efforts I believe there will be large numbers of PS3's sold to non-gamers.

- Talk
Taking my group of friends as a case-study, they cant wait to get into high def (movies and gaming), after having seen my never-ending demos and heard my passionate lectures.

For this group, the PS3 (vs. a 360+add-on) is an absurdly easy sell. Even those that only want gaming OR movies are sold on the PS3. And here's the secret to that:

The playstation brand mostly sold itself. Then, I sealed the deal by providing the info that the PS3 would do everything they wanted of a high def machine and they could consider the SACD playback a sonic bonus.


Seriously, for the 23-30 crowd, the PS3 is a gimme. For these people (mostly guys), they only recently obtained the purchasing power to buy high def equipment and the PS3 is too good a bargain to pass up, even if they hate gaming per se (most don't though. Give them NFS on a PC and they are in heaven.)

The argument about no one buying the PS3 as a BD player applies to the 35+ crowd. With some marketing, they will come around too.

Then, I sealed the deal by providing the info that the PS3 would do everything they wanted of a high def machine and they could consider the SACD playback a sonic bonus.
The SACD part cracks me up :). A lot of SACD production is done in PCM and then final converted to DSD before recording on that media. Now we have PS3 converting DSD back to PCM and putting it on HDMI. Someone should explain what that does anything but distort the original PCM data. Makes no sense in my book.

Do your friends really have a library of SACD discs and if so, are not disturbed about the above?

Amir, I think you guys should give the HD-DVD add-on some DTS capabilities before criticizing the PS3 for... what... less than ideal SACD playback methods of all things? All reports indicate that the SACD output is up to par and much appreciated by those holders of the format. Either way, we're talking about performance in an auxillary role in the first place here, rather than in a primary function.

*Glances back towards sentence concerning DTS decoding and the 360 add-on*

from news thread

http://www.remotecentral.com/wn061223.htm

PS3 + Universal Remote = Possible Oh thats easy (not!) you just have to find a old PS2 IR standalone receiver lying around to kludge together.

The trickiest item to obtain will be the original DVD remote control for the PS2 – at least one that comes with an external IR receiver. All currently marketed DVD add-on remotes do not include that external IR receiver, since one is already built into the slim PS2. So, you’ll need to find an add-on remote designed for the original PS2. For this test I used the official Sony PlayStation 2 DVD Remote Control model SCPH-10172, which specifically mentions “with IR receiver unit” on the package front. The part number of the IR receiver is SCPH-10160. To find one check out the usual suspects for non-current hardware – eBay, bulk liquidators, and so forth.

To assemble this contraption, plug the IR receiver into the PS2 controller end of the adapter cable, and then plug the USB end of the adapter into one of the PS3’s front mounted USB ports. The end result may look a little bit ungainly, but it’s better than nothing! ...

You have to be really really motivated or trying to prove a point to try and get that to work.

The problem is the availability of the standalone PS2 IR receiver, that wasn't even included in later versions of the PS2 IR controllers because the slim PS2 already has one.

But if that kludge really works then someone can create a real version (if SOny lets them)

BTW it also looks so cute....http://www.remotecentral.com/articles/ps3-ir-remote-photo04.htm Is that a parasite on the side of that poor PS3?

I have read some articles on the net how PS3 treats SACD by the technical view point. Those indicate that PS3 SACD playback via HDMI could much better than any other SACD transport due to the heavy processing power provided by the CELL (SACD playback uses 5 SPEs, while H.264@40Mbps only uses 3 SPEs). PS3's high quality SACD playback is also mentioned at a blog whose owner is the key engineer of Sony's CD/SACD and high-end AV receiver.

Speaking of kludges, do you have the HD-DVD add-on?

Speaking of kludges, do you have the HD-DVD add-on?

Nah, I have an HD XA1.

Probably will get a HD XA2 soon and a PS3 in the near future when they are readily available.

I have several friends that have a Xbox 360 HD DVD addon and have seen it in both the vertical and horizontal placements. Didn't bother them, and it didn't bother me. Its kinda like the Xbox "mini-me"

It didn't look as butt ugly as the IR conversion shown above. The PS3 looks so good that the USB -IR conversion looks even worse on it.

My point, was even if it was possible to do it, in practicality very few people would stomach the looks and would make the attempt to scroundge the hard to find IR receiver part.

I believe there will be large numbers of PS3's sold to non-gamers.

If those non-gamer numbers are a significant % of PS3 ownership it will also become a factor for game developers to consider.

Now that might not seem that germane to bd/hd discussion but if gamedevelopers throw more support to 360 and 360 ownership continues to support hd-dvd ownership then over the longer run it might be very germane..

The SACD part cracks me up :). A lot of SACD production is done in PCM and then final converted to DSD before recording on that media. Now we have PS3 converting DSD back to PCM and putting it on HDMI. Someone should explain what that does anything but distort the original PCM data. Makes no sense in my book.

Do your friends really have a library of SACD discs and if so, are not disturbed about the above?
Amir, like I mentioned, my friends are only just entering the world of high def and some would also like to dabble with the world of audiophilia, moi included.

So, knowing that we can setup a rather decent sound system using a PS3 is music (rimshot :D) to their ears. I know you have golden ears, but for my music-loving friends, SACD via PS3 will do just fine. After all, we have been making do with mp3 songs on iPods thus far, let alone CDs on separates.

They dont have a library of SACDs but will, once they hear their fave artists on a SACD via my PS3. My house is a demo-location for all things high fidelity. I find it a great way to convince friends.


Btw, you didnt respond to my questions about the Paramount encoding issue, a couple of pages back.

People say that BD has higher bitrate cos it was created with MPEg2 in mind.

Accepted, but why is allowable bitrate for audio higher too on BD? Is that possible only when video bitrate is kept to the same as that for HD, thus allowing greater rate for Audio?

Or, is higher audio rate engineered/allowed for even when high bitrate mpeg2 is used?

At the time of the A1s release, BD supporters were playing up the damage a subsidized $499 player would do to HD-DVD. I believe he is looking for some intellectual honesty here. To those folks who said a subsidized $499 A1 was bad for HD-DVD, how can you say a subsidized $499 PS3 is good for BD?Because the Blu-ray camp has many CE vendors very committed to the format (spending tens or hundreds of millions on R&D and product development), so there is incentive to make it succeed. Even if a Samsung, Sharp, or Panasonic realizes they may lose early business to the PS3, they understand that growing the format (regardless of vendor) is the first priority, and that in time the market created will provide opportunity. The HD-DVD camp, on the other hand, has no other committed hardware vendors, so Toshiba's subsidization presents an even higher barrier to entry in the market. Don't get me wrong, I think without the subsidy HD-DVD wouldn't even be in the market today, but it still presents a tremendous challenge going forward if HD-DVD is ever going to be anything other than a Toshiba / Microsoft format (kind of like Zune!).

Why all the song and dance about firmware updates needed before discs playing being bad for HD DVD yet not bad for BD, etc...? It just makes it look like you are trying to cast aspersions on one side. I don't recall that you participated here at the time, but the tone of my posts (which you accurately read) was in the context of vehemently countering FUD from Amir that BD-J was either optional in the format, or simply would not be / isn't present in the 1G players. Given these claims it's relevant to Microsoft's credibility if they are claiming that BD-J is incomplete when in fact all indications are that HDi was shipped in incomplete form, while BD-J was shipped complete, though not bug-free. I agree that from an average end-user's standpoint the distinction is meaningless, but for those following the debates here as a substitute for the World Cup it is relevant.

I don't recall that you participated here at the time, but the tone of my posts (which you accurately read) was in the context of vehemently countering FUD from Amir that BD-J was either optional in the format, or simply would not be / isn't present in the 1G players. Given these claims it's relevant to Microsoft's credibility if they are claiming that BD-J is incomplete when in fact all indications are that HDi was shipped in incomplete form, while BD-J was shipped complete, though not bug-free. I agree that from an average end-user's standpoint the distinction is meaningless, but for those following the debates here as a substitute for the World Cup it is relevant.
You really don't want to get my name in this argument, do you? :)

History here is very clear. You and Rio declared HDi as being broken, not ready at CES and went on to claim how polished BD-J was with many developers, ease of content creation and mature test suites and how it was going to take over the world. Companies like Fox and Disney did lavish mock ups of what BD could do. The literature for BDA used to be full of interactivity talk.

A year later, BD is way, way behind HDi in every respect in this area. You are still struggling to get a few titles out using BD-J. You now admit that it is difficult to develop using BD-J as compared to HDi (but in many discussions last year, you refused to acknowledge the advantage of HDi in this respect). Many companies rightly say their BD-J implementation is incomplete, yet you insist otherwise even while admitting that you are not privy to development of products at Sony or Samsung. Disney who was a key advocate of interactivity for both formats, was forced to release BD content with none. I mean one does not sink lower that this. The equiv. for Sony would have been to publish movies in red laser discs!

In contrast, we have delivered multiple products, as we said, delivering HDi in everying from console software to stand-alone products and PC software applications. 100+ titles use HDi in various forms and we keep moving the bar higher and higher on advanced interactivity. HD DVD mandated key interactivity features that BDA left behind. Most importantly, there is no one reluctant about using it whereas you have companies like Sony saying they want to see the dust settle before using BD-J.

So by every measure, HDi has outexecuted BD-J specifically, and in general interactivity. Now, HDi is not perfect. But we work hard at delivering it and improving it all the time. That is what we said we would do a year ago, and that is what we are doing now. We were up front with saying bugs will exist, and pushed to have things like network update to deal with them.

[deleted by mod]

I don't recall that you participated here at the time, but the tone of my posts (which you accurately read) was in the context of vehemently countering FUD from Amir that BD-J was either optional in the format, or simply would not be / isn't present in the 1G players. Given these claims it's relevant to Microsoft's credibility if they are claiming that BD-J is incomplete when in fact all indications are that HDi was shipped in incomplete form, while BD-J was shipped complete, though not bug-free. I agree that from an average end-user's standpoint the distinction is meaningless, but for those following the debates here as a substitute for the World Cup it is relevant.

No, I saw all of that, and once again: I say give it to us straight. Amir's statements at the time were based on what he heard. I can take that, given the source and bias, as well as I can take you stating what you've been told by studios, along with your bias.

But propping up arguments by have two different standards simply gets in the way of the real deal (see: "Discs don't play, now what?").

So, as you mention, the end-game is that on both sides players will need fixes. The larger issue is: You are more likely to get a fix for what's there (HDi & BD-Movie), then to get features added after the fact (BD PiP, et. al.).

(And I don't like soccer, and the Skins are out of it, so I'm stuck here ;) )

I have read some articles on the net how PS3 treats SACD by the technical view point. Those indicate that PS3 SACD playback via HDMI could much better than any other SACD transport due to the heavy processing power provided by the CELL (SACD playback uses 5 SPEs, while H.264@40Mbps only uses 3 SPEs). PS3's high quality SACD playback is also mentioned at a blog whose owner is the key engineer of Sony's CD/SACD and high-end AV receiver.
It doesn't matter what processing is used. The whole premise of DSD is thrown out the window with this playback scenario.

Let's step back for a moment. DSD uses 1-bit encoding at high rate, rather than multi-bit encoding in PCM at lower rate. But as I mentioned, labels such as Chesky do production in PCM because audio processing in DSD is very difficult. So we start with multi-bit PCM. Then we take this data, using Sony's algorithm, convert it to 1-bit DSD stream. A ton of "noise shaping" is done to push the unavoidable noise created in this process to high frequencies which you hopefully do not hear. In a normal SACD player, that stream would then be output from a 1-bit DAC, maintaining the same sample representation throughout the playback chain. So while the original PCM stream destroys some of the arguments in favor of why DSD's 1-bit system being better, at least the output chain maintains that logic.

In PS3, the 1-bit stream is converted back to PCM instead of driving a 1-bit DAC. It doesn’t matter what algorithm is used, or how much processing is involved in this conversion. What you end up with is different than the original PCM samples in the studio. It is silly to say that a lot of MIPS were thrown at the problem. Would you be happy if I used 7 Cell CPUs to add noise to your audio? It wouldn’t be too hard :)

So if you want high fidelity audio, you are better off staying with PCM/DVD-A, not SACD! That path (and using PCM in BD/HD DVD discs) is the only system which is transparent to the original, not SACD. The Sony PS3 solution simply advocates a modification of the original sound. That is not what people who care about SACD, like to hear, pun intended.

BTW, I actually like SACD when played in my decks using analog out. So my beef here is not with SACD but PS3’s implementation of it. It simply makes no sense to me.

BTW, I actually like SACD when played in my decks using analog out. So my beef here is not with SACD but PS3’s implementation of it. It simply makes no sense to me.Just curious Amir but have you ever tried listening to the SACD output from the PS3?

...Even if a Samsung, Sharp, or Panasonic realizes they may lose early business to the PS3, they understand that growing the format (regardless of vendor) is the first priority, and that in time the market created will provide opportunity.

I'm sure these companies are looking at their unit sales and smiling with the knowledge that they will be able to compete in the market sometime in the future. :rolleyes:

Quote from article posted in the "News" thread...
“We believe the studios should be selling digital downloads at full retail pricing or creating a premium priced digital download/VOD experience closer to the theatrical window,” the report states.
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6402797.html

I agree that a "premium priced" product should be available closer to the theatrical window. I just happen to think we already have it in the form of HD on shiny discs... ;) The only thing Hollywood has to do is to release them before the SD DVD discs.

Simple as that and no crapola of VOD or downloading, just use the DVD distribution channels that are already in place...

b2b

.........In PS3, the 1-bit stream is converted back to PCM instead of driving a 1-bit DAC. It doesn’t matter what algorithm is used, or how much processing is involved in this conversion. What you end up with is different than the original PCM samples in the studio. It is silly to say that a lot of MIPS were thrown at the problem. Would you be happy if I used 7 Cell CPUs to add noise to your audio? It wouldn’t be too hard :).........



I take it that this is why Sony said they would enhance SACD playback in a future software update for the PS3? It makes sense now.

Quote from article posted in the "News" thread...

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6402797.html

I agree that a "premium priced" product should be available closer to the theatrical window. I just happen to think we already have it in the form of HD on shiny discs... ;) The only thing Hollywood has to do is to release them before the SD DVD discs.

Simple as that and no crapola of VOD or downloading, just use the DVD distribution channels that are already in place...

b2b

Agreed b2b. It would be a good way to kick start HD disc sales. Let's see if the studios have the guts to do it.

Just curious Amir but have you ever tried listening to the SACD output from the PS3?
Not yet as I have not been able to find one to buy. If you want to send me yours, I will give it a listen :).

Maybe what you are saying is that if I listen to it, I might like it. That may be true and is a fair point to make in absolute. Indeed I like the sound of SACD coming out of the stand-alone players not because my engineering background tells me it is better (it actually says it should not sound as good), but because it sounds nice.

But that was not an argument I was trying to make. The argument is what value is left in representing a 1-bit system, where the two ends are no longer 1-bit. People have been saying since inception of SACD that its more pleasing sound comes from modifications it does to the stream, not any superiority of 1-bit system. With PS3, they now have a clear case here as nothing is preserved of the 1-bit system in this chain and all we are left with are modifications of the original sound. A listening test doesn't change this fact. Taking a dying format and removing the last bit of thing it was known for, seems rather strange to me. That's all.

Anyway, when I can get my hands on a PS3, I will do some audio tests and report back on what I find out if there is interest.

I'm not really good at audio presentation and actually don't care of very high quality audio playback, however, the technical background of SACD playback was interesting story and made some sense for me. Some audio philes in Japan talked PS3's playback capability is amazing.

From my understanding, to maximizing purity of 1-bit signal, there should be no digital transport in the audio chain from a SACD player to speaker. Using analog out from SACD player and the receiver/amplifier must be totally analog and must not have A/D, D/A stage in it to process the signal. But today's many of amplifier/receiver are processing in digital stage, so to deal with those equipments, transferring digital signal is almost inevitable. PS3's SACD playback is focusing this to maximize purity of DSD signal by utilizing 64bit floating processing with 4fs (176.4kHz) for decimation filtering and output in 24bit/176.4kHz format so that audio degrading processes - down converting 176.4kHz to 88.2kHz in PS3 and up converting 88.2kHz to 176.4kHz in the receiver - can be skipped. It is said that dynamic range in digital domain reaches up to 170dB.

It is said that dynamic range in digital domain reaches up to 170dB.


Someone already A/B the PS3 against Sony SACD deck. According to the report, PS3 is inferior. The report is in Chinese. Not sure which firmware they use. SACD really should use multi-bit (5-6bit). But that is another topic...

Digital downloads.

OK, who's going to be offering 30 GB and larger files for download over a 3 Mbps line?

Nobody, because it won't go anywhere and is too expensive, both for the bandwidth costs and infrastructure costs.

Look at Comcast's On Demand service. They can't keep every episode of every season of every series. They haven't tried to put a lot of movies online at once either. They're slowly upgrading some antiquated systems, because AT&T started offering their service in some of those areas. But what's going to make them invest in the head end or for the storage to put up enough content online to compete selection-wise with an average Blockbuster store?

Shiny discs will be with us for awhile yet.

Digital downloads.

OK, who's going to be offering 30 GB and larger files for download over a 3 Mbps line?



Some usenet servers are doing OK...I agree we need optical for a least another 10 years. But the transition has to start somewhere.

Someone already A/B the PS3 against Sony SACD deck. According to the report, PS3 is inferior. The report is in Chinese. Not sure which firmware they use.Some reports pointed that HDMI transmission could introduce audio degradation. It depends on what AVR is used. Tips said, disable WiFi and video transmission via HDMI to maximize HDMI audio quality.

SACD really should use multi-bit (5-6bit).What does this mean?

What does this mean?
It is the classic argument against SACD. That a single bit system, at mathematical level, simply can not produce good audio. There is way too much noise. A multi-bit system would greatly reduce this impact, while allowing the higher sampling rate to do whatever good Sony says it does :).

There are a lot of good AES papers on this and spirited debate at the time...

I have a question about Toshiba HD DVD players that may or may not belong here.

According to Crutchfield, every Toshiba HD DVD player:
"plays HD DVD high-definition discs (selectable 720p/1080i output available through HDMI output — HDMI cable included; 720p/1080i output also available via component video on discs lacking ICT copy-protection)" (my emphasis).

I have not seen these limitations listed for Blu-Ray players. I own a relatively high-end receiver (Yamaha RX-V3300) that lacks HDMI switching. Does this mean that I would not be able to play copy-protected HD DVD disks through the component video?

Digital downloads.

OK, who's going to be offering 30 GB and larger files for download over a 3 Mbps line?

Nobody, because it won't go anywhere and is too expensive, both for the bandwidth costs and infrastructure costs.

Look at Comcast's On Demand service. They can't keep every episode of every season of every series. They haven't tried to put a lot of movies online at once either. They're slowly upgrading some antiquated systems, because AT&T started offering their service in some of those areas. But what's going to make them invest in the head end or for the storage to put up enough content online to compete selection-wise with an average Blockbuster store?

Shiny discs will be with us for awhile yet.


I hope your right. I believe a lot of content sales will shift to download, though I'm also hoping that doesn't happen real soon.

Here are some things to keep in mind. These are not 30GB files being tossed around. Has anyone on here used the Xbox Live service to buy an HD movie? If so tell us what the file size looks like. With a 20GB Hard drive on the Xbox360, I'm sure these files are no where near that big.

The big question in my mind is what is the hardware vehicle used to enable movie download services. To me the logical devices are HD equipped game consoles (Xbox360 and PS3) or ethernet equipped DVRs from the cable/sat providers.

Article on Downloads
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117956232.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1

I hope your right. I believe a lot of content sales will shift to download, though I'm also hoping that doesn't happen real soon.

Here are some things to keep in mind. These are not 30GB files being tossed around. Has anyone on here used the Xbox Live service to buy an HD movie? If so tell us what the file size looks like. With a 20GB Hard drive on the Xbox360, I'm sure these files are no where near that big.

The big question in my mind is what is the hardware vehicle used to enable movie download services. To me the logical devices are HD equipped game consoles (Xbox360 and PS3) or ethernet equipped DVRs from the cable/sat providers.

Article on Downloads
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117956232.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1

I downloaded a couple of Star Trek episodes in 720p on my Xbox 360. It took almost 2 hours per episode over my broadband cable connection. Each episode is 2.3 gigabytes in size.

Even though the episodes are in 720p, only the special effects shots of the starships are in 16x9. All the drama is in 4x3. I have no idea how large the download would have been if the 95% of the download had been 16x9.

With current download speeds, this kills impulse buying via that medium, it takes almost an hour to get the download to the point where you can start watching while the 360 downloads the rest of the episode.

It doesn't matter what processing is used. The whole premise of DSD is thrown out the window with this playback scenario.

Let's step back for a moment. DSD uses 1-bit encoding at high rate, rather than multi-bit encoding in PCM at lower rate. But as I mentioned, labels such as Chesky do production in PCM because audio processing in DSD is very difficult. So we start with multi-bit PCM. Then we take this data, using Sony's algorithm, convert it to 1-bit DSD stream. A ton of "noise shaping" is done to push the unavoidable noise created in this process to high frequencies which you hopefully do not hear. In a normal SACD player, that stream would then be output from a 1-bit DAC, maintaining the same sample representation throughout the playback chain. So while the original PCM stream destroys some of the arguments in favor of why DSD's 1-bit system being better, at least the output chain maintains that logic.

In PS3, the 1-bit stream is converted back to PCM instead of driving a 1-bit DAC. It doesn’t matter what algorithm is used, or how much processing is involved in this conversion. What you end up with is different than the original PCM samples in the studio. It is silly to say that a lot of MIPS were thrown at the problem. Would you be happy if I used 7 Cell CPUs to add noise to your audio? It wouldn’t be too hard :)

So if you want high fidelity audio, you are better off staying with PCM/DVD-A, not SACD! That path (and using PCM in BD/HD DVD discs) is the only system which is transparent to the original, not SACD. The Sony PS3 solution simply advocates a modification of the original sound. That is not what people who care about SACD, like to hear, pun intended.

BTW, I actually like SACD when played in my decks using analog out. So my beef here is not with SACD but PS3’s implementation of it. It simply makes no sense to me.Great post! Makes me forget most of your sins against BD! :)

Now I understand why you don't recommend HD-DVD add-on to audio enthusiasts.

--
Side note: It would have been great if you didn't have your loyalty with HD-DVD. I can only wonder what you would have said regarding DD+ Vs. PCM debate otherwise. Unfortunately, we will never know. Business first, I guess.

Didn't Betamax have superior video quality to VHS? I can't help but believe that the format supported by companies that read the market correctly, and feed it what it wants, will win the overall format war.

IIRC, it was also the more expensive of the two formats ...

I have a question about Toshiba HD DVD players that may or may not belong here.

According to Crutchfield, every Toshiba HD DVD player:
"plays HD DVD high-definition discs (selectable 720p/1080i output available through HDMI output — HDMI cable included; 720p/1080i output also available via component video on discs lacking ICT copy-protection)" (my emphasis).

I have not seen these limitations listed for Blu-Ray players. I own a relatively high-end receiver (Yamaha RX-V3300) that lacks HDMI switching. Does this mean that I would not be able to play copy-protected HD DVD disks through the component video?

As I understood it, with ICT-enabled, only HDMI playback will allow for High Definition Output ... both for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Otherwise, the output is 480p.

I have a question about Toshiba HD DVD players that may or may not belong here.

According to Crutchfield, every Toshiba HD DVD player:
"plays HD DVD high-definition discs (selectable 720p/1080i output available through HDMI output — HDMI cable included; 720p/1080i output also available via component video on discs lacking ICT copy-protection)" (my emphasis).

I have not seen these limitations listed for Blu-Ray players. I own a relatively high-end receiver (Yamaha RX-V3300) that lacks HDMI switching. Does this mean that I would not be able to play copy-protected HD DVD disks through the component video?

Here's a little additional info....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_Constraint_Token

Hollywood has reportedly agreed to not activate this flag for discs released in either of the two formats until 2012.

As you can see the same rules apply for both formats. If they enable image constraint then the component ouptut resolution will be restricted. HDMI would not be restricted.

If you need an inexpensive HDMI switch, you can get one from monoprice.com (a forum sponsor).

IIRC, it was also the more expensive of the two formats ...To some extent, yes. But later Sanyo's were about as cheap as VHS. Beta suffered from an elitist attitude - saying with each new feature that VHS coud not duplicate it: Hi-fi, ED (extended resolution, as in S-VHS) and others.

Superior PQ and features weren't enough to win the format wars. I think that the prime problem Beta had was the lack of support from enough equipment manufacturers. If manufacturers other than Toshiba don't release HD DVD player hardware, it doesn't bode well for the format.

It's not so much that I need an HDMI switch, so much as all of the problems that I have seen reported for HDMI in general that I want to avoid it right now. There seem to be a number of problems with the SA8300HD cable boxes and HDMI. My SXRD XBR1 doesn't have 1080p inputs and I also seem to recall reading about compatability issues with it and other hardware.

Also, it would mean having to switch multiple things to change from cable to DVD. Those things tend to confuse my wife.

When the time is ripe, I will replace my receiver. I'm just waiting for the dust to settle with receiver manufacturers incorporating the appropriate technology before I make the move.

We own one and have watch a movie on it -- but we did not buy it to watch movies, it was purchased for gaming...

I think that this is a scenario that Sony has in mind for the PS3. Casual users who will rent or buy a couple of BD because they already have a player in the PS3. We'll have to see how big an impact these casual users will be.

As I understood it, with ICT-enabled, only HDMI playback will allow for High Definition Output ... both for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Otherwise, the output is 480p.

Even with ICT resolution allowed is higher than 480p, about 50% higher as I recall, 540p or some such...

To clarifiy, output to 720p/1080i is allowed over component with ICT, only problem is that the original source is first downscaled to 540p (max) before being scaled and output at 720p/1080i.

What does this mean?

Here is the AES paper ....

http://sjeng.org/ftp/SACD.pdf

At lower frequencies, though, SACD can't be beaten ...

It is the classic argument against SACD. That a single bit system, at mathematical level, simply can not produce good audio. There is way too much noise. A multi-bit system would greatly reduce this impact, while allowing the higher sampling rate to do whatever good Sony says it does :).

There are a lot of good AES papers on this and spirited debate at the time...

IMO, SACD produces the best digital audio I've ever heard. It isn't as good as LP or reel tape, but it's by far the best digital I've heard in my home. So much for mathematics...

IMO, SACD produces the best digital audio I've ever heard. It isn't as good as LP or reel tape, but it's by far the best digital I've heard in my home. So much for mathematics...

The math says my tube amp has huge amount of distortion but like you, I like its sound. So it is not the math that is faulty, but our understanding of human hearing system.

In this case though, the point is different. If more than one bit was used, you would still have the benefits of high sampling rate for SACD, while making the math work too. Even a two-bit system is worlds better than current SACD, requiring far less noise shaping.

Seems like the price reduction for the Samsung player is having good effect on sales at Amazon. The Sammy is now #675 in sales rankings vs. the Tosh A2 now #625.

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-BD-P1000-Blu-Ray-Disc-Player/dp/B000F99FDE/sr=8-5/qid=1167413165/ref=pd_bbs_5/103-0487173-1874266?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

I guess the big news for CES is that Tosh maybe will announce a further reduction in the MSRP for the A2 and/or the XA2.. Still only speculation that other CE mfgs. will announce HD-DVD players for early 2007.

b2b

Seems like the price reduction for the Samsung player is having good effect on sales at Amazon. The Sammy is now #675 in sales rankings vs. the Tosh A2 now #625.
That is an interesting link. The Samsung user review rating is just 2.5 stars. The Toshiba A1 player shown below on the same page, has a rating of 4.5 stars. Toshiba A2 has a prefect 5 start rating.

It also says that 11% of the people who looked at the Samsung, bought the Toshiba HD DVD player instead. If you look under the Toshiba A2 page though, what people ultimately buy is another HD DVD player, not BD.

Our local retail sample shows that despite the lower price, the Samsung simply is not moving. They are selling all the A2s they can get though. Samsung has inventory to move and lowering the price is the only thing they can do to help sales.

Isn't it amazing how many ways you dice and chop the Amazon stats? :)

To some extent, yes. But later Sanyo's were about as cheap as VHS. Beta suffered from an elitist attitude - saying with each new feature that VHS coud not duplicate it: Hi-fi, ED (extended resolution, as in S-VHS) and others.

Superior PQ and features weren't enough to win the format wars. I think that the prime problem Beta had was the lack of support from enough equipment manufacturers. If manufacturers other than Toshiba don't release HD DVD player hardware, it doesn't bode well for the format.

It's not so much that I need an HDMI switch, so much as all of the problems that I have seen reported for HDMI in general that I want to avoid it right now. There seem to be a number of problems with the SA8300HD cable boxes and HDMI. My SXRD XBR1 doesn't have 1080p inputs and I also seem to recall reading about compatability issues with it and other hardware.

Also, it would mean having to switch multiple things to change from cable to DVD. Those things tend to confuse my wife.

When the time is ripe, I will replace my receiver. I'm just waiting for the dust to settle with receiver manufacturers incorporating the appropriate technology before I make the move.

FWIW ... I have an SA8300HD using HDMI on Sharp Aquos ... no issues that I'm aware of ... what have you heard/seen?

That is an interesting link. The Samsung user review rating is just 2.5 stars. The Toshiba A1 player shown below on the same page, has a rating of 4.5 stars. Toshiba A2 has a prefect 5 start rating.

It also says that 11% of the people who looked at the Samsung, bought the Toshiba HD DVD player instead. If you look under the Toshiba A2 page though, what people ultimately buy is another HD DVD player, not BD.

Our local retail sample shows that despite the lower price, the Samsung simply is not moving. They are selling all the A2s they can get though. Samsung has inventory to move and lowering the price is the only thing they can do to help sales.

Isn't it amazing how many ways you dice and chop the Amazon stats? :)

Yea, the other thing is the A2 is going for $379.00.. Wonder how that is going to get other CE mfgs in the "HD-DVD" business when Tosh and MS have taken all the profit out of selling players.. ;)

b2b

To clarifiy, output to 720p/1080i is allowed over component with ICT, only problem is that the original source is first downscaled to 540p (max) before being scaled and output at 720p/1080i.

ty Ja Phule and Dahlsim ... ;)

No ethernet port on all of the players besides the Pio?? Even the Sony? Well I didn't even know that.

Well that certainly narrows it down... and given the Pioneer manual page quote I posted earlier reagarding the lack of intaeractive support foo it's ethernet connector, it's looking less likely.

Thanks.
No Probs, Steve.

It'll be a miracle if any BD player without an ethernet port can comply with BD-Live - ie, it would mean the BDA changing the BD-Live spec to fit the capabilities of their first-gen BD players - which would be HUGE NEWS since it would represent a massive "tearing out" of BD-LIVE features.

Come on rdjam you do have a tendency to go out of your way to attack Blu-ray and those that support it. I mean heck you even attack Blu-ray in your signature.Sorry you interpret stating the obvious as an attack ;)

Personally I do think that BD-J is superior to HDi. Now THAT's really interesting... Pray tell how so, Rich?

And while you're at it, how about you tell me which of the current BD standalone players WILL be able to handle BD-Live (and therefore prove that they are NOT obsolete)?

Happy Holidays, everyone!

FWIW ... I have an SA8300HD using HDMI on Sharp Aquos ... no issues that I'm aware of ... what have you heard/seen?I can't find the particular posts in a search but I believe there are some in the Official 2005 Sony KDSR-50/60XBR1 SXRD Owner's Thread at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=584936

That is an interesting link. The Samsung user review rating is just 2.5 stars. The Toshiba A1 player shown below on the same page, has a rating of 4.5 stars. Toshiba A2 has a prefect 5 start rating.

And if you read movie reviews for things like Blazing Saddles, you find HD DVD 'evangalists' making outright false statements like the PQ on the HD DVD is better - even though they are the exact same encode! And then of course they rate the movie lower and suggest people go get the HD DVD.

Amazon, for whatever it is, is no better or worse in it's objective measurements than this forum itself. In fact, IMO it's more or less the same people that are likely 'preaching' their message both here and there.

And if you read movie reviews for things like Blazing Saddles, you find HD DVD 'evangalists' making outright false statements like the PQ on the HD DVD is better - even though they are the exact same encode! And then of course they rate the movie lower and suggest people go get the HD DVD.

Amazon, for whatever it is, is no better or worse in it's objective measurements than this forum itself. In fact, IMO it's more or less the same people that are likely 'preaching' their message both here and there.

I haven't seen any reviews say that Blazing Saddles looked better in one format than another, maybe I'm not reading the right review sites (as you point out they both use the same codec, VC1). On the other hand I've seen a number of reviews on the Samsung BD player that were less than enthusiatic. Still waiting on the A2 reviews, but I have a feeling they will be much more positive than the Samsung reviews.

While we're on conspiracy theories, I'd like to suggest that it's Universal that is going out and buying their own movies off of Amazon to make it look like HD-DVD is selling better than BD. ;)

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

To specify, I meant the 'user' reviews and rankings on Amazon.com itself; not professional reviews. The comment was simply in the context of Amir pointing to Amazon.com as a reflective slice of the populace, whereas when it comes to the actual reviews and rankings, I'm pointing out that Amazon is "in play" as far as HD DVD Now goes. Which of course is sick and mildly pathetic, but anyway...

Seems like the price reduction for the Samsung player is having good effect on sales at Amazon. The Sammy is now #675 in sales rankings vs. the Tosh A2 now #625.

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-BD-P1000-Blu-Ray-Disc-Player/dp/B000F99FDE/sr=8-5/qid=1167413165/ref=pd_bbs_5/103-0487173-1874266?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

I guess the big news for CES is that Tosh maybe will announce a further reduction in the MSRP for the A2 and/or the XA2.. Still only speculation that other CE mfgs. will announce HD-DVD players for early 2007.

b2b The biggest use of the Amazon stats is for long term trends. In this case the Samsung may spike at that level but if its not consistently in stock or selling consistently, the rating will eventually drop. One thing is clear, is that tthe Samsung was not as good a value at its previous price as it is now. That places the entire Blu-ray high priced stand alone player strategy in doubt.

Thats also the very good thing about the dvdwars.com site, it has keep stats for a long period know so the trends can be seen.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

Thats the solid thing about the HD DVD player sales, they have been consistent over time. The salesrankings of the top 10 titles and number of titles in top 1000 and 10000 have been also consistent. Blu-ray titles are increasing in volume, but still are an order of magnitude below HD DVD.

Its interesting to see that HD DVD is starting to be at all times highs even as Blu-ray is closing the gap in the top 10 graph. Click between the "show all" last 30 and last 7 buttons to see the trends and the gap.


If you click on the show all button on the number in the top 1000 and top 10000 graphs you can clearly see the trend.

Also its interesting to notice that the combined 84 and 97 number of titles in the top 10000 is that HD is .84 + .97 % = 1.83 % of all DVD titles in the Amazon 10,000 or commonly sold DVD's. Thats consistent with the 4 + 9 = 1.3% in the top 1000 listing and the occasional hit in the top 100. That implies that between 1-2 % or 1 in 50-100 of all shiny movie discs sold on Amazon is starting to become a HD DVD and now Blu-ray.

Thats probably enough to start getting someones attention, even more so because though disc sales are coming from tiny installed base of players. That implies that HD DVD (and maybe now Blu-ray) player owners are buying a lot more discs than a normal DVD owner.

That is probably getting studios attention.

Seems like the price reduction for the Samsung player is having good effect on sales at Amazon. The Sammy is now #675 in sales rankings vs. the Tosh A2 now #625.

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-BD-P1000-Blu-Ray-Disc-Player/dp/B000F99FDE/sr=8-5/qid=1167413165/ref=pd_bbs_5/103-0487173-1874266?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

I guess the big news for CES is that Tosh maybe will announce a further reduction in the MSRP for the A2 and/or the XA2.. Still only speculation that other CE mfgs. will announce HD-DVD players for early 2007.And, if you believe amillian's claim that Samsung is moving out all their inventory, they may well have a nice G2 model to announce at CES...

- Talk

And those HD DVD and Blu-ray discs are probably selling at a higher price (average $19.99 ??) than a lot of other standard DVDs. So that 1-2% of sales that is starting to become HD is probably even more profitable to the studios than if they were regular DVDs.

Also a lot of the HD DVD sales have been on long dormant catalog titles, so thats almost found money for the studios if they exceed the mastering and replication cost.

And, if you believe amillian's claim that Samsung is moving out all their inventory, they may well have a nice G2 model to announce at CES...

- Talk If they can put a gun to Sony's head and grab some of those Blu-ray flavored blue laser diodes.

But then where do they price it, at $499 to compete with the PS3 or at $999 or above where the earlier model failed?

* Sigh* decisions, decisions for the Blu-ray camp.

That is an interesting link. Our local retail sample shows that despite the lower price, the Samsung simply is not moving.Imagine that! In Seattle, a city where Microsoft is by far the dominant technology employer and a significant economic driver, the format backed by Microsoft is selling much better than the competing format! That's unbelievable! Surely the "local retail sample" in Seattle is a far better indication of current relative strength of sales between the two models than Amazon, which can only represent nationwide sales with a sample size many orders of magnitude larger.

It'll be a miracle if any BD player without an ethernet port can comply with BD-Live - ie, it would mean the BDA changing the BD-Live spec to fit the capabilities of their first-gen BD players - which would be HUGE NEWS since it would represent a massive "tearing out" of BD-LIVE features.Rdjam, I'll explain to you that BD-Live is solely defined by the network connection. If, as you suggest, BD-Live were to be changed to eliminate the requirement for a network connection, you'd have BD-Video.

Imagine that! In Seattle, a city where Microsoft is by far the dominant technology employer and a significant economic driver, the format backed by Microsoft is selling much better than the competing format! That's unbelievable! Surely the "local retail sample" in Seattle is a far better indication of current relative strength of sales between the two models than Amazon, which can only represent nationwide sales with a sample size many orders of magnitude larger.
Well, you may be surprised. BBY here is often as hostile toward HD DVD as they are elsewhere. Stock reports in the morning radio show don't even mention Microsoft but lumber companies instead and Amazon! As home advantage goes, this is the worst I have seen. Indeed, I am not sure anyone at local stores knows MS had anything to do with this stuff. And if they did, they would care.

Anyway, maybe you have your own story of Samsung selling very well elsewhere. If so, feel free to tell it.

One thing is clear, is that tthe Samsung was not as good a value at its previous price as it is now. That places the entire Blu-ray high priced stand alone player strategy in doubt.Every new technology introduction has been characterized by initial premium pricing, with a price drop as volumes and competitive pressures rise. No one expected Blu-ray players to stay at $1K indefinitely. With half-a-dozen competitive players on the market including the PS3 it's clear that prices will drop.
But then where do they price it, at $499 to compete with the PS3 or at $999 or above where the earlier model failed?Is there no room between $499 and $999? Assuming a new player would have improved features (perhaps some combination of onboard TrueHD/DTS-HD MA decoding, HDMI 1.3, 1080p24, 7.1 analog outputs, improved performance, network / BD-Live support, improved remote control, etc.) they could be very competitive at $799 MSRP.

- Talk

It's funny, on another site, there was a discussion of the Zune at year end. A bunch of posters, with fewer than 20 posts, said their wives loved it as Xmas gifts and that all their hardcore iPod users plan to get it as soon as their iPods die.

Same repetitive points by supposedly different people.

They can't even change up their stories to make it credible.

Well, you may be surprised. BBY here is often as hostile toward HD DVD as they are elsewhere. Stock reports in the morning radio show don't even mention Microsoft but lumber companies instead and Amazon! As home advantage goes, this is the worst I have seen. Indeed, I am not sure anyone at local stores knows MS had anything to do with this stuff. And if they did, they would care.It's less important how the stores merchandise it, the fact is you can expect that a reasonable percentage of shoppers at Best Buy in the Seattle area either work for Microsoft or have a family member or friend who does, and as such are far more likely to be supportive of HD-DVD than Blu-ray.
Anyway, maybe you have your own story of Samsung selling very well elsewhere. If so, feel free to tell it.B2bonez already did about 19 posts ago.

* Sigh* decisions, decisions for the Blu-ray camp.
*wow* choices, choices for Blu-ray supporters! :D

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

*wow* choices, choices for Blu-ray supporters! :D


Wow ... unavailable $499/599 choice or a bunch of overpriced soon to be obsolete players.

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

Wow ... unavailable $499/599 choice or a bunch of overpriced soon to be obsolete players.

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)
That was good, and quick! :)

Except that price is not the only choice we look for.

...and except that PS3 is available. I remember playing a movie on it yesterday!

...and except for the obsolete part. We will come back to that next year! :)

The biggest use of the Amazon stats is for long term trends. In this case the Samsung may spike at that level but if its not consistently in stock or selling consistently, the rating will eventually drop. One thing is clear, is that tthe Samsung was not as good a value at its previous price as it is now. That places the entire Blu-ray high priced stand alone player strategy in doubt.

Thats also the very good thing about the dvdwars.com site, it has keep stats for a long period know so the trends can be seen.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

Thats the solid thing about the HD DVD player sales, they have been consistent over time. The salesrankings of the top 10 titles and number of titles in top 1000 and 10000 have been also consistent. Blu-ray titles are increasing in volume, but still are an order of magnitude below HD DVD.

Its interesting to see that HD DVD is starting to be at all times highs even as Blu-ray is closing the gap in the top 10 graph. Click between the "show all" last 30 and last 7 buttons to see the trends and the gap.


If you click on the show all button on the number in the top 1000 and top 10000 graphs you can clearly see the trend.

Also its interesting to notice that the combined 84 and 97 number of titles in the top 10000 is that HD is .84 + .97 % = 1.83 % of all DVD titles in the Amazon 10,000 or commonly sold DVD's. Thats consistent with the 4 + 9 = 1.3% in the top 1000 listing and the occasional hit in the top 100. That implies that between 1-2 % or 1 in 50-100 of all shiny movie discs sold on Amazon is starting to become a HD DVD and now Blu-ray.

Thats probably enough to start getting someones attention, even more so because though disc sales are coming from tiny installed base of players. That implies that HD DVD (and maybe now Blu-ray) player owners are buying a lot more discs than a normal DVD owner.

That is probably getting studios attention.
The only value I place on Amazon numbers rankings is for one of a "snapshot" of a relative performance specific to Amazon. In fact there are no "numbers" even to use with the Amazon data. It's all in the form a "ranking" that really means nothing more than an a interesting bit of information that really tells very little.

b2b

Edit: In fact in just a few short hours the "rankings" have changed to #369 for the Tosh and #943 for the Samsung. That is a large change, but what were the real "numbers" of units sold that caused that change ?? There is no way to "quantify" if the real quantities are never known.

Is there no room between $499 and $999? Assuming a new player would have improved features (perhaps some combination of onboard TrueHD/DTS-HD MA decoding, HDMI 1.3, 1080p24, 7.1 analog outputs, improved performance, network / BD-Live support, improved remote control, etc.) they could be very competitive at $799 MSRP.

- Talk
Hmm, looks like my other post didnt go through.

Anyway, you read my mind above!!! I'm hoping such a player will be announced/shown at CES next week. Though I would expect such a player wouldn't arrive until 3Q07.

If a player with those features is announced, and the BD studios pick up the pace on the A-list titles and announce some at the show, I'd say that would be GREAT news and a great show for Blu-Ray.

To specify, I meant the 'user' reviews and rankings on Amazon.com itself; not professional reviews. The comment was simply in the context of Amir pointing to Amazon.com as a reflective slice of the populace, whereas when it comes to the actual reviews and rankings, I'm pointing out that Amazon is "in play" as far as HD DVD Now goes. Which of course is sick and mildly pathetic, but anyway...
Paranoia is a virtue?

It's less important how the stores merchandise it, the fact is you can expect that a reasonable percentage of shoppers at Best Buy in the Seattle area either work for Microsoft or have a family member or friend who does, and as such are far more likely to be supportive of HD-DVD than Blu-ray.


I can't believe that you can back this up with actual statistics. I know plenty of people who work for Microsoft that can't stand Microsoft, and own PS3's, PS2's, GameCubes and are looking for WII's. As a former CTO and technology consultant, I have not witnessed this loyalty you think is "far more likely".

I can't agree with your opinion on this one... It is, afterall, only an opinion....

Assuming a new player would have improved features (perhaps some combination of onboard TrueHD/DTS-HD MA decoding, HDMI 1.3, 1080p24, 7.1 analog outputs, improved performance, network / BD-Live support, improved remote control, etc.) ...Well, we'll be showing this

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/Products/SMP8630/pdf_files/bluray8634_br.pdf

working in our suite at CES. Took less than a month of development effort to add PIP, etc. to the existing 1G player design.

It's less important how the stores merchandise it, the fact is you can expect that a reasonable percentage of shoppers at Best Buy in the Seattle area either work for Microsoft or have a family member or friend who does, and as such are far more likely to be supportive of HD-DVD than Blu-ray.


Maybe there may be some slight influence but I doubt it's very big. Boeing is pretty big in this area and I don't know anyone who shops for flights to avoid Airbus.

Even so, there are about 35000 MS employees in a general population of 3 1/2 million or so, about 1%. You can make a bunch of adjustments for age, income, etc, but the percentage of MS ee's is not that big a deal.

On the other hand, the Seattle area has one of the highest percentages of college graduates in the country. Maybe they're just smarter on average than the rest of the country :D

Maybe there may be some slight influence but I doubt it's very big. Boeing is pretty big in this area and I don't know anyone who shops for flights to avoid Airbus.

Even so, there are about 35000 MS employees in a general population of 3 1/2 million or so, about 1%. You can make a bunch of adjustments for age, income, etc, but the percentage of MS ee's is not that big a deal.

On the other hand, the Seattle area has one of the highest percentages of college graduates in the country. Maybe they're just smarter on average than the rest of the country :D

This post is definitely "on-the-money"....

Also its interesting to notice that the combined 84 and 97 number of titles in the top 10000 is that HD is .84 + .97 % = 1.83 % of all DVD titles in the Amazon 10,000 or commonly sold DVD's. Thats consistent with the 4 + 9 = 1.3% in the top 1000 listing and the occasional hit in the top 100. That implies that between 1-2 % or 1 in 50-100 of all shiny movie discs sold on Amazon is starting to become a HD DVD and now Blu-ray.

Absolutely false. You would have to know sales numbers for each title in the top x to know what percentage of "all shiny movie discs" any individual title or collection of titles represents.

As an example the 20th ranked selling DVD for the w/e 12/24 only sold 12% as many discs as the number 1 ranked disc. What do you think the ratio was for number 87? Number 1000?

You could fairly state that HD represents between 1 and 2% of the "titles" for sale.

Rdjam, I know you're a bit slow on the uptake with this issue, but I'll explain to you for the umpteempth time that BD-Live is solely defined by the network connection. If, as you suggest, BD-Live were to be changed to eliminate the requirement for a network connection, you'd have BD-Video.
WHoah - I saw you make that statement last time and ignored it.

You are categorically stating that the ONLY difference between BD-J and BD-Live is the existence of an Ethernet Port? There are NO OTHER functional differences or ANY differences in capabilities AT ALL?!?

Can you confirm that my above two questions are EXACTLY what you are stating out here in public?

So are you also stating that PiP video for commentary is NOT REQUIRED for either the BD-J or BD-LIVE specs - what is it, voluntary then, for ANY and ALL Bluray players??

Please confirm all of the above...

That was good, and quick! :)

Except that price is not the only choice we look for.

...and except that PS3 is available. I remember playing a movie on it yesterday!

...and except for the obsolete part. We will come back to that next year! :)
Another "vague hint" that current players will be able to do BD-Live? This has got to be taken as straight FUD, when one takes into account the fact how many of these players DO NOT HAVE network ports! :p

Well, we'll be showing this

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/Products/SMP8630/pdf_files/bluray8634_br.pdf

working in our suite at CES. Took less than a month of development effort to add PIP, etc. to the existing 1G player design.

So is Sigma focusing only on Blu-Ray now or will you be showing anything for HD-DVD?

Well, we'll be showing this

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/Products/SMP8630/pdf_files/bluray8634_br.pdf

working in our suite at CES. Took less than a month of development effort to add PIP, etc. to the existing 1G player design.

You know, if I had enough startup cash to afford this kit, I'd be tempted to start putting these together into an AVS-specific solution, with videophile hardware and perhaps some open-source stuff, if it didn't violate licensing agreements. While I'm as eager for "name brand" solutions as anyone, it seems to me that a lot of the complaints I see are because one or another CE manufacturer decided to include or disinclude a feature that people here didn't agree with.

I'm nerdy enough to think it would be fun, and there is obviously enough technical expertise on this Forum to be able to pull it off.

Pipe dreams, as I'd guess the financial requirements are too high, and the Sigma solution probably doesn't include stuff like AACS. But, damn, wouldn't it be nice to have the hardware equivalent-- firmware upgradable, even-- of ZoomPlayer?

...and except that PS3 is available. I remember playing a movie on it yesterday!


Where ? I remember looking for it a minute back !

http://www.ps3preorders.com/

Maybe there may be some slight influence but I doubt it's very big. Boeing is pretty big in this area and I don't know anyone who shops for flights to avoid Airbus.

Yep. 68,000 Boeing employees - heard just now on npr.

Even within MS, hd dvd / BR knowledge is very limited (i'm talking about people not directly working on it). I know a lot of people who don't know MS supports HD DVD over BD.

Well, we'll be showing this

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/Products/SMP8630/pdf_files/bluray8634_br.pdf

working in our suite at CES. Took less than a month of development effort to add PIP, etc. to the existing 1G player design.
Hi Keith, with the other chip makers announcing chip designs that work for both HD DVD and Bluray, is it wise for Sigma to focus just on Bluray-only solutions? I don't hear anything from Sigma on a chip for both... ?

WHoah - I saw you make that statement last time and ignored it.

You are categorically stating that the ONLY difference between BD-J and BD-Live is the existence of an Ethernet Port? There are NO OTHER functional differences or ANY differences in capabilities AT ALL?!?

Can you confirm that my above two questions are EXACTLY what you are stating out here in public?

So are you also stating that PiP video for commentary is NOT REQUIRED for either the BD-J or BD-LIVE specs - what is it, voluntary then, for ANY and ALL Bluray players??

Please confirm all of the above...
Talksr8t, you're awfully quiet on this question now....

Could you answer and state if this is exactly what you meant?....

.....
...

......
...
.
.. . . . . . . . . . . .??

Another "vague hint" that current players will be able to do BD-Live? This has got to be taken as straight FUD, when one takes into account the fact how many of these players DO NOT HAVE network ports! :pFUD = Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. I don't think what I said qualifies as that. Unless it instills fear in your mind about something you can't admit in public! Does it make you uncertain about your format of choice (which I didn't hint either)? :)

No, I wasn't talking about BD-Live. These players won't become obsolete if they don't support BD-Live as long as they remain fully BD-Video compliant. As far as PS3 is concerned, I am sure it will be BD-Live compliant if it is not already. Thanks for showing concern, though. What will we do without you protecting us from evil BDA!

Hi Keith, with the other chip makers announcing chip designs that work for both HD DVD and Bluray, is it wise for Sigma to focus just on Bluray-only solutions?This just happened to be done anyway for our BD customers, so was easy to offer to other interested manufacturers. We've been selling it for a couple of months now and decided to make it a standard offering -- reduces the amount of paperwork I have to deal with... :D

I don't hear anything from Sigma on a chip for both... ?What, you don't read our website? :eek: Although engineers are working on HD DVD (we have separate sw development teams for BD and HD DVD), the focus is to use our new chip for HD DVD and also migrate BD designs to that chip (easy since sw backwards compatible). Much more powerful SoC, so Toshiba's performance levels can be achieved while reducing player costs.

Which players are using SoCs?

Where ? I remember looking for it a minute back !Look harder. I bought it and I am sure what I have bought is PS3 for sure! :)

Kidding aside, there are reports that PS3's are now remaining on shelves in some stores for as long as a day (compared to 20min for Wii) -- can't find the link. After I bought mine, I haven't checked the stores, so I can't confirm. If true, I don't know which emoticon to use: ':(' or ':)'. Probably I will use ':rolleyes:' for the time being until there are more reports.

Imagine that! In Seattle, a city where Microsoft is by far the dominant technology employer and a significant economic driver, the format backed by Microsoft is selling much better than the competing format! That's unbelievable! Surely the "local retail sample" in Seattle is a far better indication of current relative strength of sales between the two models than Amazon, which can only represent nationwide sales with a sample size many orders of magnitude larger.
hehe, funny

I reckon if Seattle-ites had a choice, they would fly only on Boeings.

Maybe there may be some slight influence but I doubt it's very big. Boeing is pretty big in this area and I don't know anyone who shops for flights to avoid Airbus.

Even so, there are about 35000 MS employees in a general population of 3 1/2 million or so, about 1%. You can make a bunch of adjustments for age, income, etc, but the percentage of MS ee's is not that big a deal.

On the other hand, the Seattle area has one of the highest percentages of college graduates in the country. Maybe they're just smarter on average than the rest of the country :D
Of the 3.5m people, lets say 10% are aware of BD and HD (thats a rather generous chunk, imo). Of those, take away those unable (can't afford) or unwilling to buy high def stuff right now. That leaves what.. 100-150K?

You can be sure that of the 35K MS employees, 30K can afford and are aware of BD and HD. What chunk of those 30K would buy now I dont know.


Either way, the MS employees are a significant chunk by themselves of the early adopter market and if you include the network effects of MS employees buying for / recommending to their friends and family, its a walk-over.

Of the 3.5m people, lets say 10% are aware of BD and HD (thats a rather generous chunk, imo). Of those, take away those unable (can't afford) or unwilling to buy high def stuff right now. That leaves what.. 100-150K?

You can be sure that of the 35K MS employees, 30K can afford and are aware of BD and HD. What chunk of those 30K would buy now I dont know.


Either way, the MS employees are a significant chunk by themselves of the early adopter market and if you include the network effects of MS employees buying for / recommending to their friends and family, its a walk-over.

This is truly a slow news day. Can we go back to debating BD-J vs HDi? ;)

You can be sure that of the 35K MS employees, 30K can afford and are aware of BD and HD. What chunk of those 30K would buy now I dont know.

Quite wrong. Infact of all the people I know, only one other person is mildly interested in HiDef DVD. He doesn't even have a 360 ...

Look harder.

Why should I ? You claimed it was available ... so show me :p

This is truly a slow news day. Can we go back to debating BD-J vs HDi? ;)

LMAO, I was just thinking the same thing, but then I got to considering if McDonalds customers were more likely to go with HD-DVD and Burger King customers might be more likely to go with BD.... But what about Wendys and White Castle? :confused: This is confusing....

LMAO, I was just thinking the same thing, but then I got to considering if McDonalds customers were more likely to go with HD-DVD and Burger King customers might be more likely to go with BD.... But what about Wendys and White Castle? :confused: This is confusing....
The point was the "local sampling" used by Amir. Where is the Sony HQ in the USA? Anyone got some local sampling from there. Please throw it out. These guys will accept it as representative of format sales even if it is a slow news day =) Yeah, its a slow day, guys.

Hope you guys have something to contribute besides observing that its a slow day or wondering about the format-preferences of your fave fast-food joints =)

The point was the "local sampling" used by Amir. Where is the Sony HQ in the USA? Anyone got some local sampling from there. Please throw it out. These guys will accept it as representative of format sales even if it is a slow news day =) Yeah, its a slow day, guys.

Hope you guys have something to contribute besides observing that its a slow day or wondering about the format-preferences of your fave fast-food joints =)

Let me just say that I ended up having combo #5 from BK tonight, and I would have bought a copy of Sneak King as a goof except I don't have an Xbox360.

Ok, enough on that. Now back to the serious topic of US headquarters and employees. Here is the US Headquarters for Sony. They have a total of 158,500 employees world wide.

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=sonytower-newyorkcity-ny-usa

Rachelny, can you fill us in on how BD sales are going in Manhattan?

Here's a news story. There are positive comments about Sony in there as well. Feel free to quote those.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=VDL3MMAMG1C3UQSNDLSCKHA?article ID=196701694

Sony, arguably the most recognized electronics brand in the world, endured costly production-related mishaps with lithium-ion batteries for laptop computers, CCD image sensors for digital cameras, Bravia LCD TVs and the blue-laser diodes that power its Playstation 3 gaming console and Blu-ray Disc products. When all's said and done, the failures are likely to cost Sony more than $500 million in recalled products and lost revenue. But the damage to its reputation may be more devastating.

A case in point is the urban myth, now propagating in cyberspace, that Sony designs a device into its products that causes them to fail once the warranty expires. Even Sony president Ryoji Chubachi, in a recent interview, seemed to damn the company with faint praise when he said of its manufacturing technology, "I don't think Sony is largely inferior to other companies."

"I don't think Sony is largely inferior to other companies."That's precious!

Of the 3.5m people, lets say 10% are aware of BD and HD (thats a rather generous chunk, imo). Of those, take away those unable (can't afford) or unwilling to buy high def stuff right now. That leaves what.. 100-150K?

If you believe several projections, HDTV is approaching 20-25% (IIRC) market penetration. Since the Seattle area is relatively more high tech than most areas of the country, it's probably a little higher here. If they can afford to buy a HDTV, they can probably afford to spend $500 more for a PS3 or HD-DVD player without a lot of problems. That's what, about 900,000. Now some are kids or spouses, so that may be 300 - 400K households.


You can be sure that of the 35K MS employees, 30K can afford and are aware of BD and HD. What chunk of those 30K would buy now I dont know.]

That's quite an optimistic estimate to say the least. There is a large number of administrative and non-technical employees, plus a lot of employees who aren't exactly bringing in the big bucks who are at the bottom of the pyramid. The Seattle area is one of the more expensive housing markets which drains away a lot of disposable income. Let's say they own HDTV's at twice the area rate, say 50%, so that's 17,500. If you're doing the math, that may be about 5% of the total HD market.

You may be confusing yesterday's Microsoft where even secretaries were millionaires after getting stock options, with today's Microsoft where the stock seems to have gone in reverse from the good old days.

If Microsoft paid that much, my resume would be in the mail.


Either way, the MS employees are a significant chunk by themselves of the early adopter market and if you include the network effects of MS employees buying for / recommending to their friends and family, its a walk-over.

Well, if 5% is signficant, I guess you could be right.

I can recommend to my friends or relatives that they should spend $1000 or $1500 to get started in HD players (cost of a player plus ~500 for HD movies) but it won't make any difference if they don't have a HDTV, if they have a HDTV and are happy with HD cable/dish and don't want to spend more, or can't spend more. For those that would consider buying something, almost all have already been exposed to something already. We've got plenty of CC's, BB's, Fry's, Costco's, etc where you can't really avoid seeing something if you venture into the TV section.

Talksr8t, you're awfully quiet on this question now....Could you answer and state if this is exactly what you meant?Are you kidding me?!? Two hours and 21 minutes after you post and you're accusing me of dodging the question? Some of us have a life outside of AVS Forum, you know. Sorry I was spending time with my wife and children instead of checking in here every thirty minutes in case you had a question. :mad:
You are categorically stating that the ONLY difference between BD-J and BD-Live is the existence of an Ethernet Port? There are NO OTHER functional differences or ANY differences in capabilities AT ALL?!?Once again, you continue to not understand facts which I and others here have fruitlessly tried to teach you. BD-J and BD-Live are apples and oranges. The two profiles are BD-Video and BD-Live. The exact same BD-J is part of both of them. As of June, 2007 the only difference between the two profiles in newly-released players will be network support. For players released prior to June, 2007, BD-Video isn't required to support PiP and local storage, while BD-Live players are required to support those features.
So are you also stating that PiP video for commentary is NOT REQUIRED for either the BD-J or BD-LIVE specs - what is it, voluntary then, for ANY and ALL Bluray players??No, I'm saying that all players released after 6/07 must support PiP, regardless of whether they support BD-Live.

Now, to keep you from reposting the same incorrect information, type the following 100 times:
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.

Absolutely false. You would have to know sales numbers for each title in the top x to know what percentage of "all shiny movie discs" any individual title or collection of titles represents.

As an example the 20th ranked selling DVD for the w/e 12/24 only sold 12% as many discs as the number 1 ranked disc. What do you think the ratio was for number 87? Number 1000?

You could fairly state that HD represents between 1 and 2% of the "titles" for sale. Except that the distribution of the sales ranking are fairly evenly distributed throughout the 1-1000 ranks or the 1-10000 ranks. And there the occasional strike into top 100 territory.

You can compare how the Amazon sales rankings for books correlate with Amazon actual book sales as linked in several earlier threads. The fact that the percentages are close for number of titles in the top 100, top 1000 and top 10000 imply that the HD DVD titles are at least evenly distributed throughout the ranking distribution.

It IS true that the rankings are almost exponential in their correlation with actual sales, and that any really popular (top 100) title sells dramactically more than a top 10000 title, but the HD DVD rankings and soon Blu-ray has occasionally struck there also. A single title hit in the top 100 is significant sales.

I agree that there needs to be a link between number of copies sold and the average Amazon rank during that sales period to give us some correlation data.

But 1-2% of sales is a fairly conservative estimate. It is also not a fantastic stretch to imply that the number of current released HD DVD titles are in recent active sales and thus are a higher percentage of sales than any other random set of 150 titles.

I don't disagree that there is no sure way to caculate sales based on this information, we can probably asssume that the sales ranking follows a similar formula as the book sales formula, for which there has been some research. But DVD sales are now higher in volume than book sales.

Bottom line, is I don't disagree with you, except that those charts are starting to show that HD DVD sales are increasing over time and are starting to be noticable in sales.

Imagine that! In Seattle, a city where Microsoft is by far the dominant technology employer and a significant economic driver, the format backed by Microsoft is selling much better than the competing format! That's unbelievable! Surely the "local retail sample" in Seattle is a far better indication of current relative strength of sales between the two models than Amazon, which can only represent nationwide sales with a sample size many orders of magnitude larger.

Nice try, but no cigar. Outside of forums like this, most people either don't know or don't care about Microsoft's position.

I must admit I'm surprised that a BD insider is giving credit to the Amazon sales ranking :rolleyes: I can only imagine what's next. :D

FYI, Amazon is also based in Seattle which is why they screen out most potential BD buyers so that HD DVD sales looks better :rolleyes:

Here's a news story. There are positive comments about Sony in there as well. Feel free to quote those.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=VDL3MMAMG1C3UQSNDLSCKHA?article ID=196701694

Sony, arguably the most recognized electronics brand in the world, endured costly production-related mishaps with lithium-ion batteries for laptop computers, CCD image sensors for digital cameras, Bravia LCD TVs and the blue-laser diodes that power its Playstation 3 gaming console and Blu-ray Disc products. When all's said and done, the failures are likely to cost Sony more than $500 million in recalled products and lost revenue. But the damage to its reputation may be more devastating.

A case in point is the urban myth, now propagating in cyberspace, that Sony designs a device into its products that causes them to fail once the warranty expires. Even Sony president Ryoji Chubachi, in a recent interview, seemed to damn the company with faint praise when he said of its manufacturing technology, "I don't think Sony is largely inferior to other companies."
If this is the kind of topics we are going to be discussing, the kind that have a "6 degrees of separation" kind of connection with the format war and are old news to boot, I have some updates on Vista security holes and how it might imply that the dream of "high def on a HTPC" is about to die a horrible death.

Who has articles on Vista's security holes? Please link below.

Ok ok, slow down. One by one please.. pretty please?

[i][SIZE=3][b]The exact same BD-J is part of both of them. As of June, 2007 the only difference between the two profiles in newly-released players will be network support. For players released prior to June, 2007, BD-Video isn't required to support PiP and local storage, while BD-Live players are required to support those features.
No, I'm saying that all players released after 6/07 must support PiP, regardless of whether they support BD-Live.
Thanks for the coaching there, teach :)

OK - easy mistake, since BD-Video used to be called BD-J... So, in fact, the current players are neither BD-Video NOR BD-Live compliant?

Now - back to my main point, the current Bluray players mostly cannot support PiP from what we've read on these forums the last couple of months.

As such, they can be compatible with neither BD-Video, nor BD-Live come June 07.

Good so far?

As such, they could quite reasonably be said to be obsolete.

I realize that no-one wants to conceed that the current players mostly will not be capable of PiP, but no one is saying which ones *MAY* actually be able to be BD-Live or BD-Video compliant.

So I am promoting caution, that's all. The buyers have not been educated about these two BD specs, nor for the most part have any inkling that there will be an issue for them - and I think that's unfair to the consumer...

Rdjam, I'll explain to you that BD-Live is solely defined by the network connection. If, as you suggest, BD-Live were to be changed to eliminate the requirement for a network connection, you'd have BD-Video.

Richard Paul has also mentioned PiP and persistent storage (of some size?) necessary, but I suspect that he may have been confusing the -Live profile and the 6/07 deadline.

So, assuming that all players after 6/07 have PiP, I have a few questions:

1) What is the "-Video" profile? Is it the pre-6/07 players, or the post 6/07 players?

2) Given your answer for #1, what is the "other" player then called?

3) Is persistent storage of any arbitrary size required, ether after the 6/07 deadline, or for -Live ? (And if "yes" to both, do the sizes change?)

4) Is it possible for a pre-6/07 player that has a net jack (i.e. the Pio today, and maybe some CES players?) that were to be enabled for interactivity, but NOT have PiP to be qualified as a -Live player?

Thanks.

Well, we'll be showing this

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/Products/SMP8630/pdf_files/bluray8634_br.pdf

working in our suite at CES. Took less than a month of development effort to add PIP, etc. to the existing 1G player design.

Very nice, Keith. HDD support, and Mini-PCI for wireless!

Might I ask, were the additions an upgrade in firmware/software, or additional/different hardware to support the newer BR profile features?

[b][SIZE=3]

Now, to keep you from reposting the same incorrect information, type the following 100 times:
[i]BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.
BD-Video and BD-Live are profiles. BD-J is not a profile. BD-J is a platform.

So, is that one line a hundred times, or all 8 lines for a total of 8 hundred??

:D

Have a safe long weekend, everybody, and enjoy watever time off you have...

In my opinion most of the first and second generation players have serious shortcomings. Neither of the Toshiba HD DVD players will handle DVD+R/+RW disks. Nor will the Samsung and Sony BD players.

Also, neither of the Toshiba HD DVD nor the Sony BD players will play mp3 or wma files. In fact, the Sony BDP-S1 won't even play audio CD's. And none of the current players will play SACD or DVD-Audio disks.

Most people, including me, also utilize their current DVD players for audio disks. I don't have space for a dedicated HD player along with an another player just for audio.

These shortcomings must be fixed before I would consider either format. The only player announced that has sufficient capabilities to find a place in my home theater is the Panasonic DMP-BD10. Unfortunately it will also be the most expensive of the bunch.

In my opinion most of the first and second generation players have serious shortcomings. Neither of the Toshiba HD DVD players will handle DVD+R/+RW disks. Nor will the Samsung and Sony BD players.

Also, neither of the Toshiba HD DVD nor the Sony BD players will play mp3 or wma files. In fact, the Sony BDP-S1 won't even play audio CD's. And none of the current players will play SACD or DVD-Audio disks.

Most people, including me, also utilize their current DVD players for audio disks. I don't have space for a dedicated HD player along with an another player just for audio.

These shortcomings must be fixed before I would consider either format. The only player announced that has sufficient capabilities to find a place in my home theater is the Panasonic DMP-BD10. Unfortunately it will also be the most expensive of the bunch.

I don't think the Panasonic supports SACD but it does suppurt DVD-Audio. On the other hand PS3 supports SACD but not DVD-Audio. The Pioneer is the most expensive player by the way. It will be nice to see universal players that do everything. I like the convenience of a single player as well. It simplifies things for my wife as well.

http://reviews.cnet.com/Panasonic_DMP_BD10/4505-6463_7-31813551.html

If this is the kind of topics we are going to be discussing, the kind that have a "6 degrees of separation" kind of connection with the format war and are old news to boot, I have some updates on Vista security holes and how it might imply that the dream of "high def on a HTPC" is about to die a horrible death.

Who has articles on Vista's security holes? Please link below.

Ok ok, slow down. One by one please.. pretty please?

I thought there was a lot of interesting stuff in this article.

Some observers believe Sony stands a better chance of recovering from its Playstation 3 slip-up now that it has reportedly corrected the manufacturing glitch that stymied yields for its blue-laser diodes. Sony initially said it would ship a combined 1 million units in the United States and Japan in time for Christmas. It then halved that target to 500,000 but, according to analysts fell short of even that goal. That left the door open to Nintendo's Wii to gain market share.

Count me as a skeptic that they've really fixed all the manufacturing challenges by the way.

In my opinion most of the first and second generation players have serious shortcomings. Neither of the Toshiba HD DVD players will handle DVD+R/+RW disks. Nor will the Samsung and Sony BD players.

Also, neither of the Toshiba HD DVD nor the Sony BD players will play mp3 or wma files. In fact, the Sony BDP-S1 won't even play audio CD's. And none of the current players will play SACD or DVD-Audio disks.

Most people, including me, also utilize their current DVD players for audio disks. I don't have space for a dedicated HD player along with an another player just for audio.

These shortcomings must be fixed before I would consider either format. The only player announced that has sufficient capabilities to find a place in my home theater is the Panasonic DMP-BD10. Unfortunately it will also be the most expensive of the bunch.
You forgot to mention that the Sony BD player won't play CDs, either. Nor BD/R/RE.

And that while the First-Gen Toshibas will handle HDi and networking, etc now and in the future, the first Gen BD players do not seem so well equipped as to handle the next two BD "specifications", BD-Video and BD-Live (which STILL do not include mandatory decoding of the DD+ and TruHD audio formats).

I do agree with you also - when the true universal players arrive, with HD/BD support, as well as DVD-Audio, count me in for the big bucks :)

Richard Paul has also mentioned PiP and persistent storage (of some size?) necessary, but I suspect that he may have been confusing the -Live profile and the 6/07 deadline.

So, assuming that all players after 6/07 have PiP, I have a few questions:

1) What is the "-Video" profile? Is it the pre-6/07 players, or the post 6/07 players?

2) Given your answer for #1, what is the "other" player then called?

3) Is persistent storage of any arbitrary size required, ether after the 6/07 deadline, or for -Live ? (And if "yes" to both, do the sizes change?)

4) Is it possible for a pre-6/07 player that has a net jack (i.e. the Pio today, and maybe some CES players?) that were to be enabled for interactivity, but NOT have PiP to be qualified as a -Live player?

Thanks.Hi Steve, to encourage a quick clarification, I'll jump in with the answers as I understand them.

1) The "BD-Video" profile will exist after June 07, since all player after that point will have to be either BD-Video or BD-Live. It remains to be seen whether any of the current BD standalone players will ever be able to be BD-Video compliant, seeing as how they appear to be lacking in the hardware to do PiP, and missing ethernet ports.

2) Heh! :) I think the answer to that is "obsolete"...

3) From talk's answer earlier, it would seem that he is stating that persistent storage will only be required for BD-Live players, leaving the rest in the wilderness.

4) I would guess that a player "could" have some network functionality while not meeting either the BD-Live or BD-Video spec. But then makes a mockery of the whole BD specification structure, in my opinion. What is the point of having specs when most of the players don't meet them.

If I have any of the above wrong, I shall expect a rapid public execution (err, I mean correction) :) failing which...

You forgot to mention that the Sony BD player won't play CDs, either. Nor BD/R/RE.Actually, I did mention it. The same apparently goes for the Pioneer BDP-HD1.

What are these manufacturers thinking?

Actually, I did mention it. The same apparently goes for the Pioneer BDP-HD1.

What are these manufacturers thinking?
I agree! :)

You forgot to mention that the Sony BD player won't play CDs, either. Nor BD/R/RE.

And that while the First-Gen Toshibas will handle HDi and networking, etc now and in the future, the first Gen BD players do not seem so well equipped as to handle the next two BD "specifications", BD-Video and BD-Live (which STILL do not include mandatory decoding of the DD+ and TruHD audio formats).

I do agree with you also - when the true universal players arrive, with HD/BD support, as well as DVD-Audio, count me in for the big bucks :)

Other than downloading FW patches, what sort of "networking" features has been done with any of the Tosh players ?? You continue touting something that has never been done with HD-DVD as if it is standard practice... Dare I say "science fiction" for all of those vapidus claims.. ;)

b2b

Other than downloading FW patches, what sort of "networking" features has been done with any of the Tosh players ?? You continue touting something that has never been done with HD-DVD as if it is standard practice... Dare I say "science fiction" for all of those vapidus claims.. ;)

b2b
Actually, the Toshibas AT LEAST all HAVE network ports. And have also been promised to be compliant with HDi, so any HDi features that use this network functionality on future discs will work.

This is entirely different to the situation with the BD players where we now recognize THREE DIFFERENT SPECS - (BD-Video, BD-LIVE and NON-LIVE-NON-VIDEO compliant) - and where the current players don't seem to have a chance of complying....

Actually, the Toshibas AT LEAST all HAVE network ports. And have also been promised to be compliant with HDi, so any HDi features that use this network functionality on future discs will work.

This is entirely different to the situation with the BD players where we now recognize THREE DIFFERENT SPECS - (BD-Video, BD-LIVE and NON-LIVE-NON-VIDEO compliant) - and where the current players don't seem to have a chance of complying....

And in what way does this "promise" take form ?? Is it just some postings you read here on AVS ?? Just what should someone expect with HDi ??

While you take great pains to point out the different documented profiles of BD and what they offer, somehow the "great unknown" of what will happen with HD-DVD will magically just be "OK" based on vague "promises" of unknown origin.. ;)

b2b

While you take great pains to point out the different documented profiles of BD and what they offer, somehow the "great unknown" of what will happen with HD-DVD will magically just be "OK" based on vague "promises" of unknown origin.. ;)

b2b

To be honest and equal... I don't see anything different with BD either. But I have to agree that having the ethernet port does bode well for a players internet interactive capability.....don't you? Really, do the other BD players (besides PS3)have wireless capability?

And in what way does this "promise" take form ?? Is it just some postings you read here on AVS ?? Just what should someone expect with HDi ??

While you take great pains to point out the different documented profiles of BD and what they offer, somehow the "great unknown" of what will happen with HD-DVD will magically just be "OK" based on vague "promises" of unknown origin.. ;)

b2b
Has someone said the Toshiba players are NOT HDi compliant?

Even if players have built-in Ethernet port, how many houses have an Ethernet jack available next to the player to take advantage of this feature?

Has someone said the Toshiba players are NOT HDi compliant?

The better question is "what does HDi compliant mean ?". All HD-DVD players must have some form of HDi, as it forms the basis of the common menu creation for all HD-DVD titles. What has not been shown is any form of HDi network functionally in regards to actual titles.

FW for the A1 had to be upgraded to have some titles even work (Kong, Tokyo Drift..), but neither of those has any network functionality (as far as has been reported)..

b2b

Even if players have built-in Ethernet port, how many houses have an Ethernet jack available next to the player to take advantage of this feature?

Ah.. the obvious question that everone seems to ignore... Even when every player has networking available and titles to use the function, just how many consumers will take the time and go to the trouble of connecting their "DVD" player via broadband to the Internet ??

b2b

Yea, the other thing is the A2 is going for $379.00.. Wonder how that is going to get other CE mfgs in the "HD-DVD" business when Tosh and MS have taken all the profit out of selling players.. ;)

b2bMy same thoughts.

Ah.. the obvious question that everone seems to ignore... Even when every player has networking available and titles to use the function, just how many consumers will take the time and go to the trouble of connecting their "DVD" player via broadband to the Internet ??

b2b

Wouldn't this logic make the whole BD-Live spec unnecessary then? Considering one of the dependencies is an Ethernet Port?

Considering both the HD-DVD and BR Camps have invested quite a bit into including Ethernet Support (either now or in the future), I would think that their answer to "how many consumers" would be "quite a significant amount" ... no?

Ah.. the obvious question that everone seems to ignore... Even when every player has networking available and titles to use the function, just how many consumers will take the time and go to the trouble of connecting their "DVD" player via broadband to the Internet ??

b2b

Well, that is a very good question. I would say that it is likely a small subset, but one that is growing. If we look at all of the new game consoles, they have ethernet jacks as well, which helps drive home network adoption. My presumption is that the majority of early adopters will be connecting those ports, but the rates will drop off as these players go more into the mainstream. I also believe that the main driving factor for use of those network ports will be software updates. If someone runs into an issue with their player, they will likely connect to the network (even if it's just temporary) to get it updated.

The home networking trend is a long anticipated one. It is still in the early stages, but growing. The most telling anecdotal evidence I have is that both my parents and my in-laws have wireless home networks with broadband connections. Neither are particularly tech savy (my in-laws were still using a rotary phone 10 years ago), and I wasn't the one who set up either network.

But all of that aside, I've seen people frequently influenced into buying a box that has extra features even if they don't plan to use them. In addition consumers who look at a box that is missing something (like a network port) that they know the next round of models will have, stop and think twice (even when they don't plan to use it). It's the mentality of missing out on the option to do something, even though you may never do it.

Then you have folks like me who've run a cat. 6 drop to where all of my video wiring goes. I'll drop a small triple speed switch in their to connect all of my networked AV devices. ;)

Wouldn't this logic make the whole BD-Live spec unnecessary then? Considering one of the dependencies is an Ethernet Port?

Considering both the HD-DVD and BR Camps have invested quite a bit into including Ethernet Support (either now or in the future), I would think that their answer to "how many consumers" would be "quite a significant amount" ... no?

Well that is the "great unknown" when all of these new players get connected to HDTV displays in consumers homes. In Blu-Rays case you can have 50GB of data in the form of video and added BD-J code that when connected to the Internet the possibilities are endless.

Will those "endless possibilities" get translated into something people will respond to ?? Anyones guess is a good as any at this point in time... :)

b2b

Why should I ? You claimed it was available ... so show me :p

If you would really like a PS3, I'd suggest swinging by your local Best Buy tomorrow morning. Every one is supposedly getting another shipment of 25+. Of course three days ago it was 60+, so no guarantees.

If you would really like a PS3, I'd suggest swinging by your local Best Buy tomorrow morning. Every one is supposedly getting another shipment of 25+. Of course three days ago it was 60+, so no guarantees.I don't think he wants to buy a PS3. :)

I don't think he wants to buy a PS3. :)

Signature changes *can* be difficult. ;)

li'l ol' irrational me.
ted

Signature changes *can* be difficult. ;) :)

The fact that all HD DVD players have an ethernet jack available makes use if that feature a real possibility in the future.

Its one thing if a HD DVD would have a cool internet feature and the consumer chooses not to hook it up to the internet port, and therefore chooses not to use the feature. There is no reason to complain if you do not choose use a feature.

Its another thing entirely if that port doesn't exist on his thousand dollar player, and he can't use the latest format feature on his recently bought expensive hardware because it doesn't have the port installed on it. That would make it quasi "obsolete" in many people's eyes.There is reason to complain if you cannot use a feature because your hardware is not reflective of the general population, you were not adequately informed about it when you bought it, and this was a problem that was clearly anticipated by the manufacturer.


Blu-ray may have several advantages over HD DVD, but this area is not one of them.

Mandatory persistent storage and an ethernet connection raise the common available platform to a more robust level that can be used in the feature without screwing the first adopters.

Yea, the other thing is the A2 is going for $379.00.. Wonder how that is going to get other CE mfgs in the "HD-DVD" business when Tosh and MS have taken all the profit out of selling players..

My same thoughts. Man o man. are you guys going to be pissed when the cheaper mainland Chinese HD DVD players are released next year.

Other than downloading FW patches, what sort of "networking" features has been done with any of the Tosh players ?? You continue touting something that has never been done with HD-DVD as if it is standard practice... Dare I say "science fiction" for all of those vapidus claims.. ;)

b2bVapidus? Can I borrow that one?

Well I think the actual word is meant is "vapid" as in very very dull, flat or boring. Vapidus is the latin root.

I've heard it used by snobs to describe American style light beers or female blind dates that were so boring that they caused men to flee in boredom.

SF and vapid are kinda different concepts though.

I don't know if the claims of HD DVD using an internet connection for iHD or downloadable content is "vapid", it may be impracticable at the moment or untapped potential, but the concept itself isn't boring.

That is unless you don't have any imagination ;)

Well I think the actual word is meant is "vapid" as in very very dull, flat or boring. Vapidus is the latin root.

I've heard it used by snobs to describe American style light beers or female blind dates that were so boring that they caused men to flee in boredom.

SF and vapid are kinda different concepts though.

I don't know if the claims of HD DVD using an internet connection for iHD or downloadable content is "vapid", it may be impracticable at the moment or untapped potential, but the concept itself isn't boring.

That is unless you don't have any imagination ;)

Well, it doesn't show up on dictionary.com except as the latin root as you mentione (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vapid) but it is here:http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vapidus

Latin
Adjective
vapidus

1. flat or vapid
2. (of wine etc) that has lost its freshness

If you google it, there also seems to be a reference to Paris Hilton as a Proboscis Monkey -- I'm not sure that works for this post!

What a fun way to end the year! :eek: :D

Even if players have built-in Ethernet port, how many houses have an Ethernet jack available next to the player to take advantage of this feature?

Most houses built now have a twisted pair wire in every room so they can have network connectivity if they want. I've been running a gigabit network in my condo since 2001 but I guess wireless is getting faster and faster. It's fast enough now where I would have proably been able to use it in 2001 if it was available for me to transfer my HD shows over my network, but gigabit is so inexpensive now. I paid alot for the equipment I had 5 years ago, but it's cheap now.
Anyway I have 3 HD DVD players and one PS320GB for BD playback. I just want HD and unfortunately I need both formats to see the movies I like. Although I'll continue to choose HD DVD over BD when titles are offered on both formats.

:eek: wiktionary !

Well, it doesn't show up on dictionary.com except as the latin root as you mentione (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vapid) but it is here:http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vapidus

Latin
Adjective
vapidus

1. flat or vapid
2. (of wine etc) that has lost its freshness

If you google it, there also seems to be a reference to Paris Hilton as a Proboscis Monkey -- I'm not sure that works for this post!

What a fun way to end the year! :eek: :D

Now what is freaky is when you google " Paris Hilton Vapid"

http://www.google.com/search?q=paris+hilton+vapid&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

Even b2b must be strong when he clicks on some of those resulting links. :eek:

Well I think the actual word is meant is "vapid" as in very very dull, flat or boring. Vapidus is the latin root.

I've heard it used by snobs to describe American style light beers or female blind dates that were so boring that they caused men to flee in boredom.

SF and vapid are kinda different concepts though.

I don't know if the claims of HD DVD using an internet connection for iHD or downloadable content is "vapid", it may be impracticable at the moment or untapped potential, but the concept itself isn't boring.

That is unless you don't have any imagination ;)

Actually I use the word as to this citation...
[Origin: 1650–60; < L vapidus; akin to vapor]
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vapor
6. Archaic.
a. a strange, senseless, or fantastic notion.

b2b

Heh - I'm so proud of your disctionary skills, b :)

But back to the point, your complaining about most people not needing networking still fails to address how these Bluray player will help those who DO WANT it, when they don't have the ports... ;)

Obsolete... :p

Well, to complete the thought, even if you meant that HD DVD having an persistent storage and an ethernet port is a strange, senseless, or fantastic notion. I think that's a silly statement.

Having a common platform that software developers can assume is in place is none of that, it is instead "not strange, not senseless nor fantastic" it is rather "normal, meaningful and soon to be commonplace". ;)

Well, to complete the thought, even if you meant that HD DVD having an persistent storage and an ethernet port is I think that's a silly statement.

Having a common platform that software developers can assume is in place is none of that, it is instead "not strange, not senseless nor fantastic" it is rather "normal, meaningful and soon to be commonplace". ;)

How can you be so sure... When and if all of these HDi networking applications get here the A1 will be as archaic as stone knives and hatchets. They can't seem to get the FW fixed to address known issues, so how can you expect them to support something new ??

b2b

How can you be so sure... When and if all of these HDi networking applications get here the A1 will be as archaic as stone knives and hatchets. They can't seem to get the FW fixed to address known issues, so how can you expect them to support something new ??

b2b I can't be sure, but their excellent support and firmware fixes created a lot of loyalty for me and others. The few issues that remain are minor and pale compared to its performance in delivering a great HD picture and fantastic upconversion of standard DVD.

Of course, if you actually owned one, you would know that by now. :rolleyes:

As a first generation HD DVD owner, at least I know that my hardware at least has an internet jack on it so at least Toshiba tried to future proof my investment in that regard.

I knew the player was kludgy when I bought it but I love the beast.

When I go to the next generation, I'll make sure it will find a home where its excellant PQ and AQ will be appreciated.

I can't be sure, but their excellent support and firmware fixes created a lot of loyalty for me and others. The few issues that remain are minor and pale compared to its performance in delivering a great HD picture and fantastic upconversion of standard DVD.

Of course, if you actually owned one, you would know that by now. :rolleyes:

As a first generation HD DVD owner, at least I know that my hardware at least has an internet jack on it so at least Toshiba tried to future proof my investment in that regard.

I knew the player was kludgy when I bought it but I love the beast.

When I go to the next generation, I'll make sure it will find a home where its excellant PQ and AQ will be appreciated.

I demoed the A1 and it was slow, cranky (HDMI glitches) and the remote was awful. As far as the skipping and freezing and audio problems, I just took the word of A1 owners posting in the player section. Thanks, but no thanks... ;)

b2b

the A1 and it was slow, cranky (HDMI glitches) and the remote was awful Agreed. But actual owners have found that one can easily work around around those issues to lessen their impact and that the picture and audio quality is well worth it.As far as the skipping and freezing and audio problems, I just took the word of A1 owners posting in the player section the postings you cite overstate the impact on the actual viewing experience as most HD DVD owners will attest to. And most postings were favorable. If you choose to only see what you want to see, one can convince himself of anything ;)
Thanks, but no thanks... Oh, so your considering purchasing the second generation HD A2 or HD XA2 which have none of those issues????

Or will your closed mind remain closed?

Somehow I doubt you would even consider an HD DVD player even if your complaints were corrected.

Pardon us, while we enjoy HD while you only complain about it.

The ethernet port is an alright idea but not everyone has highspeed internet which would be need for differrent things to happen.
So, hopfully they don't make it a must have.

Has anybody thought maybe nether format will win. Prehapps both will be around for awile and just be in the shadows like LD and DVHS. DVD is a very strong format the strongest ever to think a new format will snuff it out or demnish it to that of VHS.

I don't think the over all improvent of either new format is enough to make pepole want to change. Many don't have the TVs needed to fully use them. Most homes with a HDTV are under 32" so the increscced PQ does not justify the price of both formats 500-1000 for a player 20-40 for amovie.

Dvd 30 bucks a player and 5-30 a movie. How can you compete with that.DVds higher selling price over VHS only won out becase the increced benfit could be seen on any TV. Every down side to VHS was over come with DVD. All the new HD formats do is improve on that of DVD.

Now that 2006 is coming to an end ... does anyone know the exact #of movies released in HD DVD & BD ? May be we should get a US only count and a WW count ...

How can you be so sure... When and if all of these HDi networking applications get here the A1 will be as archaic as stone knives and hatchets. They can't seem to get the FW fixed to address known issues, so how can you expect them to support something new ??

b2b

Now me thinks that you need to actually try a player before bashing one...especially one which once 'fixed' gives us an excellent picture along with audio. I have not had a glitch since July of this year when v1.4 was installed.

I also get the feeling that the BD side would have as many or more reported problems with the hardware/software situation if the majority of AVS'ers were buying those units and taking the same hard look at the hardware.

In fact every time a new format is introduced, people have problems using the technology (hooking it up, interfacing it with existing equipment). This is a fact of life....

The ethernet port is an alright idea but not everyone has highspeed internet which would be need for differrent things to happen.
So, hopfully they don't make it a must have.

Has anybody thought maybe nether format will win. Prehapps both will be around for awile and just be in the shadows like LD and DVHS. DVD is a very strong format the strongest ever to think a new format will snuff it out or demnish it to that of VHS.

I don't think the over all improvent of either new format is enough to make pepole want to change. Many don't have the TVs needed to fully use them. Most homes with a HDTV are under 32" so the increscced PQ does not justify the price of both formats 500-1000 for a player 20-40 for amovie.

Dvd 30 bucks a player and 5-30 a movie. How can you compete with that.DVds higher selling price over VHS only won out becase the increced benfit could be seen on any TV. Every down side to VHS was over come with DVD. All the new HD formats do is improve on that of DVD.

Well, I've put forward the possibility that the market could shift to downloads before either of the new formats gains criticsal mass. Similar to the music market where MP3s are the growing market and CDs remain the physical medium of choice (after a failed format war between SACD and DVD-A). It would be really sad to see though.

Where did you get your data regarding the market share of HDTVs based on size.? I'd be very interested in seeing that.

How can you be so sure... When and if all of these HDi networking applications get here the A1 will be as archaic as stone knives and hatchets. They can't seem to get the FW fixed to address known issues, so how can you expect them to support something new ??

b2b
More FUD nonsense - when the A2 etc are out, the A1 will be "archaic" only from a performance standpoint (load times, boot times etc) NOT from a FUNCTIONAL standpoint (like HDi).

UNLIKE the current standalone Bluray players which will be obsolete both from the performance, and the functional standpoints (thanks to two new BD Java specs from June 07)...

More FUD nonsense - when the A2 etc are out, the A1 will be "archaic" only from a performance standpoint (load times, boot times etc) NOT from a FUNCTIONAL standpoint (like HDi).

UNLIKE the current standalone Bluray players which will be obsolete both from the performance, and the functional standpoints (thanks to two new BD Java specs from June 07)...

All of those new HDi apps are going to have to run on the same HW in the A1 that gives the slow "archaic" performance right now. So you really think they are going to hold back HD-DVD forever just to accommodate antique A1 HW ??

b2b

All of those new HDi apps are going to have to run on the same HW in the A1 that gives the slow "archaic" performance right now. So you really think they are going to hold back HD-DVD forever just to accommodate antique A1 HW ??

b2b
Computationally, A1 runs circles around 2 or 3 BD players ;). Indeed, if our optimized HDi implementation in A2 is put in A1, it may outpeform the PS3! OK, just kidding about PS3 :). But you really need to think through these arguments. Slow drive access does not mean slow graphics performance. The fastest and slowest PCs read your CD-Rom at the same speed...

(thanks to two new BD Java specs from June 07)...
That's incorrect. There is only one specification for BD. It includes all features (BD-Video, BD-J and BD-Live) today.

As part of that single specification, there's a table that describes what is mandatory and what is optional for each profile. Profile 1 will become more strict (that is, more features will be mandatory) after June 2007.

Ron

All of those new HDi apps are going to have to run on the same HW in the A1 that gives the slow "archaic" performance right now. So you really think they are going to hold back HD-DVD forever just to accommodate antique A1 HW ??

b2b

Just because the A1 has a slow boot up time doesn't meant the box itself is slow. Haven't we seen information posted saying that the Pentium CPUs in the A2/XA2 are slower than the Pentium CPUs in the A1/XA1?

I don't expect HDi or BD-J to be particularly system taxing for any of these players. I believe these apps are generally pretty small. So I don't think the A1 will hold back the format becuase of HDi preformance. In contrast the BD folks aren't going to let their early players hold the format back, are they. ;)

Happy New Year, Everyone!

b2b, the Java Bluray players are very sluggish to operate during playback, even the simplest functions, yet the A1 is very snappy (yes, not counting the bootup time).

So when you talk about sluggish, that's really ironic.

Ron, with all due respect, none of these conversations would be happening if there were only ONE Bluray spec, NOR would there be different spec names if there were one spec...

Happy New Year again, to all!

Ron, with all due respect, none of these conversations would be happening if there were only ONE Bluray spec, NOR would there be different spec names if there were one spec...
You forget that I'm an insider, and have actually read the specification. I assure everyone on AVSForum, there is only one BD specification.

Ron

You forget that I'm an insider, and have actually read the specification. I assure everyone on AVSForum, there is only one BD specification.

Ron

When do you expect we'll see a BD player available for sale that supports all of the spec? The full feature set, like an ethernet port, BD-Live, PiP, etc. (all the bells and whistles).


Happy New Years Everyone!!!!!!!!! :D

Just because the A1 has a slow boot up time doesn't meant the box itself is slow. Haven't we seen information posted saying that the Pentium CPUs in the A2/XA2 are slower than the Pentium CPUs in the A1/XA1?

I don't expect HDi or BD-J to be particularly system taxing for any of these players. I believe these apps are generally pretty small. So I don't think the A1 will hold back the format becuase of HDi preformance. In contrast the BD folks aren't going to let their early players hold the format back, are they. ;)

Reports I have read say that it is a 900mhz dual core CPU. I don't think you could call that slower.. ;)

b2b

Just a FYI on the tangle of who owns what in Hollywood studio land..
Universal Pictures and Focus Features are owned by NBC Universal, a joint venture of General Electric Co. and Vivendi Universal;

Sony Pictures, Sony Screen Gems and Sony Pictures Classics are units of Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).;

DreamWorks, Paramount and Paramount Vantage are divisions of Viacom Inc.;

Disney's parent is The Walt Disney Co.; Miramax is a division of The Walt Disney Co.;

20th Century Fox, Fox Searchlight Pictures and Fox Atomic are owned by News Corp.;

Warner Bros., New Line, Warner Independent and Picturehouse are units of Time Warner Inc.;

MGM is owned by a consortium of Providence Equity Partners, Texas Pacific Group, Sony Corp., Comcast Corp., DLJ Merchant Banking Partners and Quadrangle Group;

Lionsgate is owned by Lionsgate Entertainment Corp.;

IFC Films is owned by Rainbow Media Holdings, a subsidiary of Cablevision Systems Corp.

b2b

Happy New Year to all..

http://www.123icons.com/freeicons/10073.gif

b2b

Reports I have read say that it is a 900mhz dual core CPU. I don't think you could call that slower.. ;)

b2b

Do you have links to any of the reports? I'm curious about this because I don't think there's a chip like this from Intel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_microprocessors

I wonder if they're taking a faster CPU that they're clocking down to 900Mhz.

Do you have links to any of the reports? I'm curious about this because I don't think there's a chip like this from Intel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_microprocessors

I wonder if they're taking a faster CPU that they're clocking down to 900Mhz.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9129563&&#post9129563

b2b

Now THAT's really interesting... Pray tell how so?Well for why I think that BD-J is superior to HDi it is simply an opinion based on what I have read about the two interactive systems. Also just to ask this one last time but do you believe that everything that BD-J can do can also be done with HDi?


Where ? I remember looking for it a minute back !nataraj, just to clarify but are you actually saying that since you could not buy a PS3 that you do not consider it to be available? If so than based on that logic would you agree that for many people the Xbox 360 wasn't available until 2006?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9129563&&#post9129563

b2b

Thanks b2b. All the best to you and your family in the new year.

Thanks b2b. All the best to you and your family in the new year.

Best regards to you and yours also..

b2b

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9129563&&#post9129563

b2b

Great thread, lots of interesting info. No confirmation of dual core. This looks to be an older single core pentium, and probably plenty powerful for the simple sort of applications you would run on a stand alone disc player.

Here's another interesting site I came across.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdtv-praxis.de%2Fmodules.php%3Fop%3Dmodload%26name%3DPagEd%26file %3Dindex%26topic_id%3D0%26page_id%3D213%26ppart%3D3&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

The main CCU is an Intel Celeron M 900 - LE80554/SL8XS. This Customer CCU runs with 900 MHz, had 0kb Second level Cache and a FSB from 400MHz. The A1 had blocked and had however still another Pentium 4 with 2.5Ghz partially the work of the NEC chip blocked now in the HD-E1 to take over.

It looks like the A1/XA1 were using the Pentium for something that has now been moved over to the NEC asic allowing Toshiba to go to a lower power, lower cost air cooled CPU.

Great thread, lots of interesting info. No confirmation of dual core. This looks to be an older single core pentium, and probably plenty powerful for the simple sort of applications you would run on a stand alone disc player.

Here's another interesting site I came across.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdtv-praxis.de%2Fmodules.php%3Fop%3Dmodload%26name%3DPagEd%26file %3Dindex%26topic_id%3D0%26page_id%3D213%26ppart%3D3&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

The main CCU is an Intel Celeron M 900 - LE80554/SL8XS. This Customer CCU runs with 900 MHz, had 0kb Second level Cache and a FSB from 400MHz. The A1 had blocked and had however still another Pentium 4 with 2.5Ghz partially the work of the NEC chip blocked now in the HD-E1 to take over.

It looks like the A1/XA1 were using the Pentium for something that has now been moved over to the NEC asic allowing Toshiba to go to a lower power, lower cost air cooled CPU.

Looks like we found the same page at the same time... :) I was just about to post the link.

Edit: Well almost the same..
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdtv-praxis.de%2Fmodules.php%3Fop%3Dmodload%26name%3DPagEd%26file %3Dindex%26printerfriendly%3D1%26page_id%3D213&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

b2b

Your link was better b2b. :)


Here's another. I don't think anyone has posted this yet.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/31/toshiba-planning-hd-dvd-push-at-ces-hints-at-price-drops/

.........has some sort of "announcement" up its sleeve reserved for January 7th. Reportedly, "a group of companies supporting the HD DVD format will hold a news conference" on the first Sunday of the new year, and Yoshihide Fujii -- president and CEO of Toshiba's digital media network company -- is slated to announce the firm's path forward for 2007. When asked if the conference would unveil lower-priced HD DVD players, Fujii remained quiet, but did mention that he thought the "next price threshold would be $399, with $299 to follow after that."

To answer your previous question.....who would want to enter this market?.....perhaps the Chinese? ;) Look out below......

Happy New Year to All!

http://www.panoramas.dk/fullscreen3/f1.html

Your link was better b2b. :)


Here's another. I don't think anyone has posted this yet.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/31/toshiba-planning-hd-dvd-push-at-ces-hints-at-price-drops/

.........has some sort of "announcement" up its sleeve reserved for January 7th. Reportedly, "a group of companies supporting the HD DVD format will hold a news conference" on the first Sunday of the new year, and Yoshihide Fujii -- president and CEO of Toshiba's digital media network company -- is slated to announce the firm's path forward for 2007. When asked if the conference would unveil lower-priced HD DVD players, Fujii remained quiet, but did mention that he thought the "next price threshold would be $399, with $299 to follow after that."

To answer your previous question.....who would want to enter this market?.....perhaps the Chinese? ;) Look out below......

There are reports that of some of the A2s being sourced from China, so it wouldn't be a big surprise.

b2b

There are reports that of some of the A2s being sourced from China, so it wouldn't be a big surprise.

b2b

I believe there is more to it than that. I expect that we'll see an announcement of a Chinese branded HD-DVD player priced at $399. We'll find out for sure in a week.

When do you expect we'll see a BD player available for sale that supports all of the spec? The full feature set, like an ethernet port, BD-Live, PiP, etc. (all the bells and whistles).


I believe Sony has already shifted about 1 million of them, pending future software patches...

I believe there is more to it than that. I expect that we'll see an announcement of a Chinese branded HD-DVD player priced at $399. We'll find out for sure in a week.

More interesting will be to see if any SoC HD-DVD players are announced. The current PC/Intel-CPU Tosh player designs look a bit expensive to build going forward.

The German site even made mention of that.. (if I read the translation correctly)
The Main PCB after all radiators were removed. A complete pallet shows up at Intel chips. In the following the chips in detail presented. Here it becomes then also clear or others why the devices are still more expensive and must to or other corner for it be saved. Because the construction units are not favorable really straight and without subsidy on the part of Toshiba would be also not at all feasible the derzeitge introductary price!

b2b

I believe Sony has already shifted about 1 million of them, pending future software patches...

Possibly, but there's also no commitment from Sony to add those features to the PS3. I think there's a good chance that they can, but they may decide it would erode the market for higher priced stand alone players and not implement them.

So if you know of a BD player that is at least promised to have all of those features at some point, please let me know. ;)

Happy New Years---West Coast!!!!

Possibly, but there's also no commitment from Sony to add those features to the PS3. I think there's a good chance that they can, but they may decide it would erode the market for higher priced stand alone players and not implement them.

So if you know of a BD player that is at least promised to have all of those features at some point, please let me know. ;)

"We'll find out for sure in a week"..

;)

b2b

So, assuming that all players after 6/07 have PiP, I have a few questions:

What is the "-Video" profile? Is it the pre-6/07 players, or the post 6/07 players?As Dr1394 said, BD-Video profile becomes more strict as of 6/07.
Is persistent storage of any arbitrary size required, ether after the 6/07 deadline, or for -Live ?There are two concepts - persistent storage (for bookmarks and such) and local storage (for downloaded A/V, updated disc contents, etc.). According to this (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,128205-page,1/article.html) FAQ, as of 6/07 BD-Video players must have 256MB of local storage while BD-Live players must have 1GB. Note that the PS3's clearly meet this requirement since they have a minimum 20GB hard drive.
Is it possible for a pre-6/07 player that has a net jack (i.e. the Pio today, and maybe some CES players?) that were to be enabled for interactivity, but NOT have PiP to be qualified as a -Live player?Nope. BD-Live players must support all features including PiP.

- Talk