Doogie, the answer to your other point is price reductions which will kick in 2008 onwards, Imo.

If you don't think that it is an issue why not just call Blu-ray player profiles by their actual names than? If you really don't mean to confuse people about Blu-ray player profiles and BD-J why not do that?I did. BD-J is what they are based on remember? There is no BD-Live1.0, so where do you think BD-Video 2.0 came from. It was BD-J 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0 - these profiles were given the names BD-Video and BD-Live. Don't believe me? Look it up ;)

Well we know that there are two additional Performance level proposals (Performance level 2 and 3) being made for HD DVD so what was wrong with my question? I was simply curious about why you believed that these Performance levels would not apply to stand alone HD DVD players.Again, I don't know what you're talking about, but you've stated as fact that additional "performance levels" exist. So again, I'll invite you to tell me all about them...


if you want details I will give you information on what I have heard about Blu-ray profiles. Not all of it I can prove but based on what I have read on this forum I believe this information is accurate... Thank you Richard. You're right, it's too hard to get any concrete info about the Bluray profiles. That's why writing a story such as the one I put online yesterday almost feels like an exposee.

Luckily, the only main thing I need to correct in the story is that only BD-Video 1.1 will be mandatory for new players sold after June 2007 (not BD-Live). Too bad that talkstr8t is only confident in the PS3 being able to comply with BD-Video 1.1, and not the other Bluray standalone players...

... PiP is available on all Blu-ray players (see The Descent), though not necessarily using the API's provided by BD-Video 1.1.
...

If you would please clarify:

- All players? (you specifically spell some out, and omit others later in this thread)

- You did not say "mandated" but "available"... is that indication that there's no guarantee that this would necessarily be the case with all machines released prior to 6/07?

- What does using non-BD-Video 1.1 API's to access these features mean for these titles wherein the players DO support the BD-V 1.1 API's?

- Are there any guarantees that said players will be upgradable to the BD-V 1.1 spec?

- Should one expect other titles using non-BD-V 1.1 PiP API's?

Where did I say that? You are well aware that the 1.1 mandate applies to players released after June 2007, given your unending mantra that all players released before then are "obsolete".I was merely clarifying, since you dance around the issue a bit.

Happily, I can now consider it confirmed that only BD-Live is required after June 07, and that current BD-Video 1.0 players likely can't comply with BD-Video 1.1 :D

The Descent does play w/PiP on the PS3, Panasonic, Philips, and Samsung players, all of which you term "obsolete" and incapable of PiP. How do you explain that?So we've now established that the Sony and the Pioneer can't, yes?

Next, how much persistent memory do the Panasonic, Philips and Samsung players have?

That's simply incorrect. There is no possible way to output lossless sound from the Xbox 360 HD-DVD player... I'm saying any claim that the Xbox 360 HD-DVD Player supports TrueHD is misleading at best and fraudulent in practice. What is the value in decoding lossless audio if it can't actually be emitted from the player?
talk, you snipped and moved my post around and lost the meaning, so no point in continuing, really.

I never said the Xbox outputs lossless 5.1 audio, no made any representation as such, despite your attempt to claim that's what I said (a tactic that, unfortunately, is quite the norm for the BD side).

The point is the Xbox does decode the advanced codecs, so you get the best that SPDIF supports, DTS 1.5 mpbs, encoded from the best source you can find on the disc, including TruHD and DTS_HD lossless.

Whereas the typical Bluray player will only give you DD 640 k from DD+, etc.

Sorry this is so confusing ;)

Ok I'll rephrase...

;)

b2b
That's better!

Humour Good...

rdjam and b2bonez

you guys once again have gone over the top and attracted several reports and mods attention

this is unacceptable :(
Whoops - sorry Mark, just a healthy debate :o

...nite nite folks! :)

I was merely clarifying, since you dance around the issue a bit.

Happily, I can now consider it confirmed that only BD-Live is required after June 07, and that current BD-Video 1.0 players likely can't comply with BD-Video 1.1 :D

So we've now established that the Sony and the Pioneer can't, yes?

Next, how much persistent memory do the Panasonic, Philips and Samsung players have?


talk, you snipped and moved my post around and lost the meaning, so no point in continuing, really.

I never said the Xbox outputs lossless 5.1 audio, no made any representation as such, despite your attempt to claim that's what I said (a tactic that, unfortunately, is quite the norm for the BD side).

The point is the Xbox does decode the advanced codecs, so you get the best that SPDIF supports, DTS 1.5 mpbs, encoded from the best source you can find on the disc, including TruHD and DTS_HD lossless.

Whereas the typical Bluray player will only give you DD 640 k from DD+, etc.

Sorry this is so confusing ;)

Umm.. Not to be picking at you, but I though that Xb360 re-encoded to DD 640kbs.

b2b

Again, I don't know what you're talking about, but you've stated as fact that additional "performance levels" exist. So again, I'll invite you to tell me all about them...

I'm interested in hearing some actual details about the "performance levels". The BD crowd has been acting like these were going to be the silver bullet to kill HD DVD sales and leave BD as the last one standing.

The Descent won't play on the Sony BDSP1 player from what I read - why?Not why you think. :) But to answer your question would require revealing some advanced capabilities of BD movies and players that nobody here has noticed or mentioned yet, so I can't answer why.

I did. BD-J is what they are based on remember? There is no BD-Live1.0, so where do you think BD-Video 2.0 came from. It was BD-J 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0 - these profiles were given the names BD-Video and BD-Live. Don't believe me?Not really, you may have found that on wikipedia but that doesn't mean that the information is accurate. No offense rdjam but I think you have forgotten the fact that several people who actually have the Blu-ray specs have already told you that you are wrong about this. Heck, if you don't believe any of those insiders why not ask Amir and see what he says about that?


Again, I don't know what you're talking about, but you've stated as fact that additional "performance levels" exist. So again, I'll invite you to tell me all about them...I never said that I knew what these Performance levels were about and until recently I had never even heard of them. Also to be exact you were the one who said that they would only apply to PCs and I don't see why you believe that.


Thank you Richard. You're right, it's too hard to get any concrete info about the Bluray profiles.I just gave you information on the Blu-ray player profiles. My information on them came from posts made by Alex, Amir, Keith, and Talkstr8t. That is the reason I believe the information is accurate. Do you disagree with anything that I listed about the Blu-ray player profiles?


Luckily, the only main thing I need to correct in the story is that only BD-Video 1.1 will be mandatory for new players sold after June 2007 (not BD-Live).Well besides the lack of details you are still confusing Blu-ray player profiles with BD-J.

Zuber got the scoop.. LG is doing a dual format player... see "news thread' :eek:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9348368&&#post9348368

b2b

What it "proves" is that "bigger and faster" is better than "smaller and slower". Given that the title was given a 5/5 PQ rating and included LPCM audio, that means that the title could have been 194 minutes long (on a 50GB BD disc) and still deliver a 5/5 PQ rating with LPCM audio. :)

b2b
Fair enough. 3 hour movie with LPCM and MPEG2.. King Kong, anyone?

Universal, you hear? Plenty of bitrate to work with. Encode and release. Make it a great 2007. Hell, use VC1/AVC if you want to. Just do a fresh encode. I felt the flies buzzing around the teeth of the 2nd Rex looked fuzzy (j/k)

LG is doing a dual format player... Which Blu-Ray profile and HD-DVD performance level it will have? :D

Which Blu-Ray profile and HD-DVD performance level it will have? :D

HD-Ray Performance Profile 2.73 / version 0.9r1.2 ;)

b2b

Zuber got the scoop.. LG is doing a dual format player... see "news thread' :eek:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9348368&&#post9348368

b2b
Ahhh, it just makes one all warm and fuzzy!

I hate to say I told you so, everyone, but it feels too damn good to pass it up! :p

Are you ready for Samsung and NEC announcements, too? :D

Personally I think the Xbox 360 is a good game console and I am planning to eventually get one. I would point out though that Microsoft has been less than open about the fact that it can't output an HDMI signal. In fact they have a history of being vague on the issue and recently I saw an article in the January 2007 issue of PC Magazine which said that the Xbox 360 was capable of HDMI. Think about that for just a second. Even a year after the Xbox 360 was launched major publications still believe that it can output an HDMI signal.


Woohoo! I've been quoted! ;)

While I'll agree that it sucks that the Xbox 360 has no HDMI out, I would hope that at some point in the future, they allow for an add-on pigtail. I understand that this isn't likely though due to some rules or regulations of HDMI/HDCP and other acronyms I just don't understand. That said, it's sad that the analysts and members of the gaming press are publishing that HDMI is supported. But, it is also not the same type of argument I'm making. It's one thing to be able to look at something and see what Innies and Outties it has to make sure it would be compatible with your current TV or AV setup. It's another to say it can do something that it cannot do. I don't think Microsoft is being vague about it at all. I can't think of any MS Spokesperson coming out to say it supported it. The box and product specs clearly list the Innies and Outties. I don't think it's practical to put a sticker on the thing that says, "Does NOT have an HDMI Output" anymore than the PS3 should have a sticker on it that says, "Does NOT include a Media/AV Remote Control". I mean, if we were to even consider that as plausible, then it would have to be extended to all TV's as well: "No HDMI Input on this Model". :confused:

But yes, I agree ... it sucks that there's no HDMI Support. It's nice that at least it supports 1080p though via the VGA cable. ;)

FWIW, I think it's worse that the PS3 is what Sony themselves stated as the 'Start of Next Generation and High Definition Gaming' and then they don't even include a high-definition cable with it. I understand most Stand Alone BR players probably don't come with High Definition cables. But the Xbox 360 at least included Component Cables. The PS3 shipped with ... yup ... composite ... how 'Next-Gen' and 'High Definition' is that? :confused:


I own a PS3 and I don't know what you are talking about.

You might have a newer TV that supports both 720p and 1080i. It seems that the lack of a scaler prevents many of those on the cutting edge ... the 'Early Adopters' ... from playing games and/or watching BR movies in High Definition -- instead, they are forced into 480p.

I'm also waiting for the '4D Experience', fwiw. :p

They also said launch titles would be in all their glory at 1080p60 ... but I haven't seen that yet either. In fact, one of their key exclusives is 720p Max. I believe the Original Xbox supported 720p.

Also, I wasn't necessarily referring to the PS3 ... I was referring to Sony in general ... we can look at the PS2 as well though, where it was going to be the Trojan Horse of the Internet ... yet how long before a Network Adapter was even available? Hard Drive?

I dunno, perhaps I'm just a skeptic ... but when Sony talks, I listen ... but I make sure I can touch it, feel it, and smell it before I fork over any cash. *shrug*.

Not really, you may have (snip).
Sorry, Richard, no time to argue. To busy dancing in the hall with my girlfriend :D

I wonder... should I stay up and wait for Samsung's announcement also? Let me think - OK thought about it - NAH!

See you all tomorrow, and happy January 4th! ;)

Sorry, Richard, no time to argue. To busy dancing in the hall with my girlfriend :D

I wonder... should I stay up and wait for Samsung's announcement also? Let me think - OK thought about it - NAH!

See you all tomorrow, and happy January 4th! ;)

Now we get to see who the disc rental companies pick. The disc that scratches or the disc that doesn't... ;)

b2b

Its 75M by end of 2010 guys. So, about 18M a year, no mean feat still though.

I have noticed this mistake twice already and corrected it but it seems to be spreading.

FWIW, according to the source article here:

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070102005185&newsLang=en

It doesn't say 'end of 2010'. It says:


"The Sony PlayStation 3 is expected to win the console war in the long term with an install base of around 75 million globally by 2010."


To mean, that would mean by 2010, or January 1st, 2010, or December 31st, 2009.

Now, either way ... 18m ... 22m ... 25m ... we're still looking at over 1.5 million units per month (assuming we let it go to end of 2010). Considernig the PS2 sold 650k (NPD November) plus another 150k (Media Create November) ... that leaves a lot of missing consoles ... and we're talking about something that is 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of a PS3. *shrug*.

It just seems way optimistic to me ... or just part of the hype machine ... ;)

Lets see what the pricing is like. If it's $1000, it's not going to move in any significant numbers to impact the marketplace.

The CES announcement that matters is studio support, if that changes at all.

Ahhh, it just makes one all warm and fuzzy!

I hate to say I told you so, everyone, but it feels too damn good to pass it up! :p

Are you ready for Samsung and NEC announcements, too? :D
...
I wonder... should I stay up and wait for Samsung's announcement also? Let me think - OK thought about it - NAH!Probably a good choice not to stay up and wait as this way you'll get to gloat longer. :)
From the NY Times:

Although LG will introduce a dual format HD-DVD/Blu-ray player, Samsung has no plans to do the same. “If the market is still divided, we could do a dual-format player, but we will wait and see,” Mr. Choi said.--Darin

So with the dual format players...now what?

I bet every other CE company who is showing a standalone at CES for either BD or HD DVD is going to be pissed off.

And how are the studios going to react? Not everyone will have a dual format player, so will WB & Paramount still produce on both formats, or just pick one? Will the BD exclusive studios go "cheap" and start producing HD DVD in lieu of (or maybe in addition to) BD? Will Universal eventually see so many PS3s in a year or so that they "have to" start producing BDs in order to get the PS3 mkt (i.e. millions of folks who migth never be dual format)?

What do you guys think?

Depending on when mpeg2 becomes free due to patents running out, I, as a studio, would choose to release all movies on BD50 with mpeg2 if BD50 is indeed as cheap to the studio as a HD30. There will definitely be a period where mpeg2 will be free while the other codecs will not be.

Why is rdjam dancing in the halls btw? Whats the kickback to HD-DVD per se from the universal player? Does it ensure its survival?

Lets see what the pricing is like. If it's $1000, it's not going to move in any significant numbers to impact the marketplace.

The CES announcement that matters is studio support, if that changes at all.
If it's priced at $1,000 it's going to pretty much knock out the sales of standalone Bluray-only players...

Probably a good choice not to stay up and wait as this way you'll get to gloat longer. :)
--Darin
From the NY Times:

Although LG will introduce a dual format HD-DVD/Blu-ray player, Samsung has no plans to do the same. “If the market is still divided, we could do a dual-format player, but we will wait and see,” Mr. Choi said.

You got a link for that - I've been through their site and can't find it.

Or is that just an older story?...

Depending on when mpeg2 becomes free due to patents running out, I, as a studio, would choose to release all movies on BD50 with mpeg2 if BD50 is indeed as cheap to the studio as a HD30.
BD-50 will never be as cheap as HD DVD-30. :).

There will definitely be a period where mpeg2 will be free while the other codecs will not be.
I am pretty sure per disc fee for use of these codecs is 2 cents. This cost is dwarfed by the BD premium. But putting that aside, if MPEG-2 can do the job in 50, VC-1 can do it in BD-25. That will save them a lot more money than two cents.

Why is rdjam dancing in the halls btw? Whats the kickback to HD-DVD per se from the universal player? Does it ensure its survival?
He may be happy because not only is there another major brand playing HD DVD, but that major brand comes from another BDA founder (first one was Thomson). If life is great in BD land, why are their core members looking at also supporting HD DVD?

I suspect he is also happy, because BD insiders like Talk said this was not possible, too complicated and difficult. Press also bought the party line and said no one was working on one. But rdjam stayed with his belief.

So I say, he deserves to dance in the streets :).

I think this is a great post, well-argued and all points referenced for context.

The only part I disagree with is "The longer both formats stay alive, the more likely they will both continue to survive". I reckon the studios will drop the first format to fall irrevocably behind. How that is defined is up to the studios and I have no idea, but they will not support two formats if, for example only, BD player penetration reaches mass-market levels first by a clear margin. The "PS3 to sell 75M by 2010" estimate is a report sure to suppress BD jitters about market-penetration or it might be a factual look at the situation. I think it is both true and well-timed.

Well thank you fo the kind words What'sHD. I was looking to wrap up the post and didn't want to go to far past the end of 2007. I believe that either format going away will actually take much longer than we expect. If universal players do come to dominate the scene, I don't see Sony Pictures or Universal switching formats any time to soon.

As for PS3 selling 75M by 2010 or 2011......well that's quite a ways off. If Sony and Andy Parsons were thinking in January 2006 they might do as many as 7 million PS3s by the end of that same year and it was actually 1 million.....well I guess 75 million could end up just as easily being 11 million. But in all seriousness, after Sony failed to deliver on all of their previous promises for 2006, I can't imagine that new promises will do much to suppress BD jitters. Their credibility isn't exactly good right now.

Why is rdjam dancing in the halls btw? Whats the kickback to HD-DVD per se from the universal player? Does it ensure its survival?
I think HD DVD was here to stay long before the universal player; HD DVD was here to stay once Microsoft got on board.

I think this is good news mid and longer term for adoption of HD optical. I guess my only concern is what the studios are going to do. I personally hope they do not change their plans because of this as I really wanted to see each company's value proposition for their chosen format, and we hadn't even come close to that on either one yet.

Why is rdjam dancing in the halls btw? Whats the kickback to HD-DVD per se from the universal player? Does it ensure its survival?

I think it's going to have more of a negative effect on BD than HD DVD. That would be why.

So with the dual format players...now what?

I bet every other CE company who is showing a standalone at CES for either BD or HD DVD is going to be pissed off.

And how are the studios going to react? Not everyone will have a dual format player, so will WB & Paramount still produce on both formats, or just pick one? Will the BD exclusive studios go "cheap" and start producing HD DVD in lieu of (or maybe in addition to) BD? Will Universal eventually see so many PS3s in a year or so that they "have to" start producing BDs in order to get the PS3 mkt (i.e. millions of folks who migth never be dual format)?

What do you guys think?
My guess is that it'll primarily affect the single-format players at the top of the food chain which don't have Unique Selling Points.

So any $1,000 single-format players that are lacking in features or performance will become fodder. That space is mostly occupied by Bluray players at the moment.

The XA2 is priced a bit lower, but also has USPs like DTS-HD, TruHD, DD+, 1080p24 (coming in update), Deep Color HDMI 1.3 support, etc.

I think it'll be pretty safe.

The others? We'll see...

Also, from a studio perspective, this is going to be very interesting also.

If the LOW end is dominated by HD DVD players like the A1, A2 and Xbox - and the HIGH end is dominated by Hybrid players, then it is going to reduce the pressure to print Bluray discs.

Some studios may realize it might be better to run off more HD DVD discs as a result.

You got a link for that - I've been through their site and can't find it.

Or is that just an older story?...I don't have a nytimes account, but here is a thread about it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=780341

--Darin

I don't have a nytimes account, but here is a thread about it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=780341

--Darin
Relevant part..
The company, which was the first to introduce a Blu-ray high-definition DVD player last year, will announce its second-generation player next week. The new model is expected to cost about 20 percent less than the current version, but will have more interactive functions.

Although LG will introduce a dual format HD-DVD/Blu-ray player, Samsung has no plans to do the same. “If the market is still divided, we could do a dual-format player, but we will wait and see,” Mr. Choi said.

b2b

And how are the studios going to react? Not everyone will have a dual format player, so will WB & Paramount still produce on both formats, or just pick one? Will the BD exclusive studios go "cheap" and start producing HD DVD in lieu of (or maybe in addition to) BD? Will Universal eventually see so many PS3s in a year or so that they "have to" start producing BDs in order to get the PS3 mkt (i.e. millions of folks who migth never be dual format)?I don't know what they will do, but as I have pretty much said for a while, I think having lots of non-universal players of their type is the best protection each side has, in a market with universal players (and even in one without universal players). Basically, each studio needs to consider what portion of the market they will miss out on by not being neutral. And one of the best ways to get them to not skip your format is to have them miss some sales. Especially with discs where there are big incremental profit margins per disc sold. The costs of making the discs can matter, but needs to eclipse lost sales in order to go with only one disc type and have it be more profitable. And if the extra cost of discs is only 1/10th of the profit per disc sold, then it doesn't take many sales to more than make up for the disc costs.

Put another way, if every XBOX360 add-on and Toshiba player in the marketplace magically turned into a universal player tomorrow, I think that would be bad for the HD DVD side. LGF, Fox, Disney and Sony would lose most of their incentive to go neutral. And same thing if every PS3 magically turned into a universal player for the other side. Basically, much of their defense would be gone.

The price and capabilities of this universal player could of course have a huge bearing on how much impact it has. If it doesn't support some of the features of the better players (like lossless audio), some of us will still opt for having 2 players. I hope it comes in as a great player that I can recommend to a lot of people. That might be the best outcome possible for the 2 sides combined, even if not the best outcome for either side individually.

--Darin

So with the dual format players...now what?Well there is only one announced dual player so far. We need more details. What is the price? What are the features? Can't comment much more until we know. Some people are acting like a $200 device is being announced that supports every single feature in every other player.

You paint a picture suggesting Sony and partners are the vendor and the studios are the customer, as if the studios bought a car from the CE vendors and now the car only goes 60MPH when they were promised it would do 155. I can assure you the studios are not sitting back waiting for the CE vendors to "deliver". The studios are actively working to make the format a success. Whether the number of PS3's (and hence Blu-ray players) hits 5M at the end of 2006 or the middle of 2007 is not a make-or-break issue. Launching a new format takes years, and by any measure the number of Blu-ray players in the market today vastly exceeds the number of DVD players available at the same point in its launch, and will only (exponentially) increase over the next two years. As long as BD player and disc sales is on the right trend, the studios aren't going to abandon the format.

Time matters. This is not a format transition from VHS to DVD. This is a format transition combined with a format war. There is no heir apparent to DVD at the moment. BD has a double challenge, to beat HD-DVD and to do it before consumers decide that universal players are the future. I don't believe the future for BD is very good if universal players come to dominate.

We'll see. Without new studio or major CE player announcements for HD-DVD at CES, the perception will be the format is stagnant.
Don't forget, it's not as if the 1.x million PS3's sold in 2006 are the end of the road. Millions more will likely be sold in the next six months; I strongly doubt the Xbox 360 will maintain anywhere near the sales rate the PS3 will in 2007.
Clearly the more Xbox 360's the more potential low-barrier HD-DVD households. However, if you're a HT fan without a strong interest in gaming, the Xbox 360 is in no way a compelling product, with clunky packaging, high fan noise, no HDMI, and poor audio options. While the PS3 has clearly generated interest as a standalone BD player, I've seen no similar indication that the Xbox 360 can attract non-gamers to HD-DVD.

Does LG count as a major CE? ;)

http://pr.hankyung.com/read_sub.php?id=216676&no=0&ca=&ca1=&ca2=&sf=&st=&of=&nwof=&conttype=&tm=1&type=&hotissue=&sdate=&eflag=&spno=

As for sales rate of the two consoles, according to the latest numbers from nexgenwars and vgcharts, Xbox360 continues to outsell the PS3. This will continue at least until the PS3 blue laser supply issues are resolved. I've seen no indication that they're resolved yet, and I believe that the Xbox360 will outsell the PS3 in 2007. As for attracting non gamers to HD video, the PS3 serves this purpose because it is the low cost BD player (I also believe it is the best BD player available regardless of price). HD-DVD has the HD-A2 (and HD-A1 before it) as their low cost player. A consumer looking to get into HD-DVD can do so with a low cost stand alone player, so they are less likely to go the console route, unless they're also interested in gaming.

Here's my opinion on what Dual-format players mean to the market:

First - since they will be priced on the high-end, say $1,000 / $1,200 / $1,500 depending, they will hurt any single-format players that do not have Unique Selling Points (USPs)

i.e. Any single format players that cost $1,000 and are lacking in features of performance will suffer greatly to the greater appeal of getting both formats for the same price. Right now, this space is mostly occupied by Bluray players.

The XA2 is cheaper, and has USPs like DTS-HD, TruHD, DD+, 1080p60, 1080p24 (via update), Deep Color HDMI 1.3 support, etc - I think it's going to be pretty safe.

As for the Bluray players - evolve, add features, cut your price, or die.

The effect on the studios will be more interesting:

If the LOW end of the market is dominated by HD DVD players like the A1, A2 and Xbox addon player and the HIGH end is dominated by Dual-format players, then it may decrease the pressure for studios to produce Bluray discs.

Some may decide that it is simpler and more profitable to produce more HD DVD discs.

Well there is only one announced dual player so far. We need more details. What is the price? What are the features? Can't comment much more until we know. Some people are acting like a $200 device is being announced that supports every single feature in every other player.

Well I think Hollywood is going to get what they want.. A full on race to the bottom of pricing for both BD and HD-DVD players. ;) Post Holidays 2007 will be when both the rental companies and the studios will tally up and start making decisions on which format's neck ends up on the chopping block...

Competition, it's a wonderful thing.. :)

b2b

Well, you can count me in as uninterested in an LG Universal player. Now, you get a Pioneer Elite Universal Player, and I'm all ears. :)

Darin, I think you and I are on the same page re: studios and which format has the most proprietary players. That would seem to be BD w/ the PS3, so how long can Universal hold out? There are other questions for WB and Paramount, though if one were to say Universal would go neutral, then it would make sense for them to continue to produce BDs (even if they are just ports of the HD DVD version).

Fox & Disney...this will be a tough question for them. They seem to have the most aggressive plans for utilizing BDs extra capacity and bandwidth, but will they also produce HD DVDs? Would there be enough proprietary HD DVD players to justify this?

Sony...well Sony will be Sony. Even if universal players took up 80+% of the market in the future, I'd expect them still to do BD only as they'd cover the universal players and the PS3.

JUst to point out this was announced before


http://uk.gizmodo.com/2006/03/15/lg_officially_announces_dual_b.html

JUst to point out this was announced before


http://uk.gizmodo.com/2006/03/15/lg_officially_announces_dual_b.html

If they are consistent with their previous announcements, we should see them around October then.. :D

b2b

Well there is only one announced dual player so far. We need more details. What is the price? What are the features? Can't comment much more until we know. Some people are acting like a $200 device is being announced that supports every single feature in every other player.

It doesn't matter that a consumer may not want the LG universal player specifically. The fact that it exists confirms in the consumers mind that they don't have to choose formats. Many will wait for the right universal player to come to market at the right price.

It doesn't matter that a consumer may not want the LG universal player specifically. The fact that it exists confirms in the consumers mind that they don't have to choose formats. Many will wait for the right universal player to come to market at the right price.
I think that's exactly right. This is what I meant up above about this being good news mid and longer term (assuming this LG players carries a fairly hefty price tag right now).

Well, you can count me in as uninterested in an LG Universal player. Now, you get a Pioneer Elite Universal Player, and I'm all ears. :)

Darin, I think you and I are on the same page re: studios and which format has the most proprietary players. That would seem to be BD w/ the PS3, so how long can Universal hold out? There are other questions for WB and Paramount, though if one were to say Universal would go neutral, then it would make sense for them to continue to produce BDs (even if they are just ports of the HD DVD version).

Fox & Disney...this will be a tough question for them. They seem to have the most aggressive plans for utilizing BDs extra capacity and bandwidth, but will they also produce HD DVDs? Would there be enough proprietary HD DVD players to justify this?

Sony...well Sony will be Sony. Even if universal players took up 80+% of the market in the future, I'd expect them still to do BD only as they'd cover the universal players and the PS3.

You're counting all PS3 players as BD players. The majority of PS3s will probably never be used as BD players. What's more relevant is disc sales, which by all accounts show HD-DVD selling more than BD. This makes it easier for Universal to hold out than it does the BD exclusive studios.

I don't think Microsoft is being vague about it at all. I can't think of any MS Spokesperson coming out to say it supported it.I can think of two incidents when Microsoft hinted at HDMI on the Xbox 360 but they did it in such a way that it could have been for a future version of the Xbox 360. As such you are quite correct that Microsoft has never promised it but in my opinion they have tried their best to be vague on the issue. For instance I have argued with several people on this forum who truly thought that we would see a HDMI cable for the Xbox 360 released last year because of what Microsoft had said.


You might have a newer TV that supports both 720p and 1080i.It came out a few years ago but it does accept both 720p and 1080i signals. In fact one of the reasons I made sure that it could accept 720p was because I was interested in 720p Xbox games.


If it's priced at $1,000 it's going to pretty much knock out the sales of standalone Bluray-only players...That is an opinion based on a lot of assumptions. After all we don't know how much it will cost, what features it will have, how good of a player it will be, its exact release date, or the cost of stand alone Blu-ray players released in 2007.

In an article about Warner's new "Total HD" disc (http://news.com.com/New+disc+may+sway+DVD+wars/2100-1041_3-6147053.html), I love this quote:

In recent interviews, executives at Fox and Disney were unequivocal in their support for Blu-ray. They said they believed that releasing DVDs in both formats would only prolong confusion and the emergence of a winning format. "I think the fastest way to end the format war is through decisiveness and strength," said Bob Chapek, the president of Buena Vista Worldwide Entertainment, the home video arm of Walt Disney. I love that. Smite the unbelievers. :D

In an article about Warner's new "Total HD" disc (http://news.com.com/New+disc+may+sway+DVD+wars/2100-1041_3-6147053.html), I love this quote:

I love that. Smite the unbelievers. :D
In the short term, Total HD would actually add to the number of formats retailers will have to stock, raising it from three to four. However, Irynne V. MacKay, senior vice president for entertainment products at Circuit City, said she supported the idea because it took pressure off consumers puzzling over which format to invest in. "The simpler the future is for us, the better," said MacKay.

Warner needs to look into the BD disc that was made of paper... Then CC could sell 5 different kinds of discs and claim at least one was biodegradable... (I guess they would put them green boxes) :D

This whole mess is getting really comical. Call me when they have something worth buying, like Lawrence of Arabia... ;)

b2b

In an article about Warner's new "Total HD" disc (http://news.com.com/New+disc+may+sway+DVD+wars/2100-1041_3-6147053.html), I love this quote:
In recent interviews, executives at Fox and Disney were unequivocal in their support for Blu-ray. They said they believed that releasing DVDs in both formats would only prolong confusion and the emergence of a winning format. "I think the fastest way to end the format war is through decisiveness and strength," said Bob Chapek, the president of Buena Vista Worldwide Entertainment, the home video arm of Walt Disney.I wonder if tsd2005 will have any comment on this given that just a month or so ago he was telling us that Disney was planning to go neutral at CES and just 3 days ago said (here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9321839&&#post9321839)):
Disney has a CEO that has been leaning neutrality for awhile. He sees no reason there can't be TWO formats that live side by side for a long, long time. Bob might be the smartest guy in this whole entire thing.--Darin

In an article about Warner's new "Total HD" disc (http://news.com.com/New+disc+may+sway+DVD+wars/2100-1041_3-6147053.html), I love this quote:

I love that. Smite the unbelievers. :D

Wasn't Warner about to drop BD support because of universal players? :p

Gary

I wonder if tsd2005 will have any comment on this given that just a month or so ago he was telling us that Disney was planning to go neutral at CES and just 3 days ago said (here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9321839&&#post9321839)):
--Darin

Must be like the "Two Bob's" in Office Space... ;)

b2b

Bob Chapek is from the movie studio and stubborn about Blu-ray.

I think tsd2005 was referring to Bob Iger, the head of Disney, at the very top...

Wasn't Warner about to drop BD support because of universal players? :p

Gary

The big question is, what would happen if you put one of Warners "universal" discs into a "universal" player ?? :)

b2b

Bob Chapek is from the movie studio and stubborn about Blu-ray.

I think tsd2005 was referring to Bob Iger, the head of Disney, at the very top...I agree. Still interesting comments from a studio that is supposed to be going neutral soon.

--Darin

Bob Chapek is from the movie studio and stubborn about Blu-ray.

I think tsd2005 was referring to Bob Iger, the head of Disney, at the very top...

Bob vs Bob at Disney? :eek:

IMO, Disney isn't going neutral until they are certain Sony has screwed up. 6 million PS3s in homes by the end of March is certainly enticing and the market isn't so big that they are missing much by staying exclusive.

That said, if summertime comes and PS3 is still lagging behind Wii and XBox 360 (which is selling an "attractive" HD option), I think Disney may have to review their exclusive position. Studios saw the 100 million PS2s out there and IMO, didn't study the videogame market enough to observe the fickleness and the ease with which a titan one generation could easily fail the next.

Blu-ray will live or die on the heels of the PS3. If they can overtake XBox 360 and Wii in monthly sales, or at least sell well enough to convert gamers into Blu-ray users, or heck just get enough sold as Blu-ray players even if not used for games, then they have less reason to consider neutrality.

That said, the PS3's disappointing sales (and mild success of the 360 add-on) so far have probably turned some heads.

I hear ya. If the Wii continues to outsell the PS3, expect Disney to release movies on the standard definition (but highly interactive) format of the future: Mario Disc.

Seriously... I understand that everyone likes to have their anti-Sony bloodlust play out in anyway possible, but it *really* has to be emphasized, that Wii (and 360 even) outselling the PS3, does not diminish the PS3's boost effect for Blu-ray. It's still millions upon millions of BD players... Nintendo does not compete in this space. As for 360, it's the add-on sales that Disney will watch, not the console sales.

I'd like to think that these points would be self-evident.

IMO, Disney isn't going neutral until they are certain Sony has screwed up. 6 million PS3s in homes by the end of March is certainly enticing and the market isn't so big that they are missing much by staying exclusive.

That said, if summertime comes and PS3 is still lagging behind Wii and XBox 360 (which is selling an "attractive" HD option), I think Disney may have to review their exclusive position. Studios saw the 100 million PS2s out there and IMO, didn't study the videogame market enough to observe the fickleness and the ease with which a titan one generation could easily fail the next.

Blu-ray will live or die on the heels of the PS3. If they can overtake XBox 360 and Wii in monthly sales, or at least sell well enough to convert gamers into Blu-ray users, or heck just get enough sold as Blu-ray players even if not used for games, then they have less reason to consider neutrality.

That said, the PS3's disappointing sales (and mild success of the 360 add-on) so far have probably turned some heads.

This is the way I see the "PS3" issue. If you more or less give away a free HD player with every PS3 sold (millions) and it doesn't generate a generous boost to BD sales, then the whole idea of HD on shiny disc is in peril as product with the general public.

If you can't sell blades for free razors, then the obvious thing is most people don't really care much about the idea of a new way of shaving...

b2b

I hear ya. If the Wii continues to outsell the PS3, expect Disney to release movies on the standard definition (but highly interactive) format of the future: Mario Disc.

Seriously... I understand that everyone likes to have their anti-Sony bloodlust play out in anyway possible, but it *really* has to be emphasized, that Wii (and 360 even) outselling the PS3, does not diminish the PS3's boost effect for Blu-ray. It's still millions upon millions of BD players... Nintendo does not compete in this space. As for 360, it's the add-on sales that Disney will watch, not the console sales.

I'd like to think that these points would be self-evident.

I understand wanting to believe the 1 million PS3s gurantees something for BD. In the end everyone will be watching the disc sales, because there's no other way to know how many of those free razors people will actually use.

By the way I thought efralope's post was on the money. Can't wait for the next broken promise milestone at the end of March.

The problem is that the PS3 is not giving away Blu-ray for free. They are charing $500, a premium over the Wii and XBox 360 (even if those extra costs aren't related to Blu-ray and have superior technology in other means).

If the PS3 were released in 2 versions at $299 and $399, then their idea of giving away a free HD player may have merit. But right now their system costs more than their more popular competitors at the moment.

If PS3 was sold at $299 & $399 and didn't generate a boost in HD discs, I agree, they idea is at a peril...

I hear ya. If the Wii continues to outsell the PS3, expect Disney to release movies on the standard definition (but highly interactive) format of the future: Mario Disc.

Seriously... I understand that everyone likes to have their anti-Sony bloodlust play out in anyway possible, but it *really* has to be emphasized, that Wii (and 360 even) outselling the PS3, does not diminish the PS3's boost effect for Blu-ray. It's still millions upon millions of BD players... Nintendo does not compete in this space. As for 360, it's the add-on sales that Disney will watch, not the console sales.

I'd like to think that these points would be self-evident.
This is what I said:

"Blu-ray will live or die on the heels of the PS3. If they can overtake XBox 360 and Wii in monthly sales, or at least sell well enough to convert gamers into Blu-ray users, or heck just get enough sold as Blu-ray players even if not used for games, then they have less reason to consider neutrality."


Wii certainly doesn't compete in the HD disc war, but it has an effect on the popularity of PS3 no doubt. Without the Wii, PS3 might be more popular and share more support among game studios in Japan and have kids begging for one as the new thing on the block. In turn, you trickle in a BD audience. They don't need to beat the Wii and XBo 360, but I bet many studio heads were counting on that level of domination to help Blu-ray.

Ok... crossed wires on the reading and the response, my bad there.

I agree with the heart of your assessment.

That is an opinion based on a lot of assumptions. After all we don't know how much it will cost, what features it will have, how good of a player it will be, its exact release date, or the cost of stand alone Blu-ray players released in 2007.

True. But even if it were massively delayed, overpriced, underfeatured and clunky, the mere notion of a universal player will discourage a lot of potential HD DVD and BD buyers from buying single-format players, especially upper-tier ones.

Example: me. I was thinking of upgrading my Toshiba HD-A1 to an XE1/XA2 (1080p24 and all). Now I probably won't buy any more hardware (except maybe a PS3 or supercheap BD, if there is such a thing) for the rest of the year.

...So, it could be this?

Announcing dual format player due in early 2007, will keep slipping release date due to the "delay of development", and in some time future, abandon the plan to release it due to "no market demand" or something like that, while the company get money from somewhere, as well as discount payment of existing DVD royalty by the agreement with Toshiba in return of supporting HD DVD. ;)

Just kidding :)

Not everything that b2b says needs an answer guys. Indeed, most of what he says may not merit an answer.

I suspect rdjam is also happy, because BD insiders like Talk said this was not possible, too complicated and difficult. Press also bought the party line and said no one was working on one. But rdjam stayed with his belief. So I say, he deserves to dance in the streets.

It's so incredibly hypocritical to bash b2b while (repeatedly) defending rdjam. How come you never correct his many obvious mistakes, here and on his pro HD-DVD website?

As for the universal player from LG, in a time-honoured HD-DVD tradition I shall declare it "science fiction" until it's actually available. :D

Flagship HD XA2 released with high end Silicon Optix HQV Reon DVD upconversion in it.

Dual format player announced from major consumers electronics manufacturer

Dual format disc announced from major studio. Both formats predicted to survive

Early reports about PS3 sales during holiday season


So far not a super duper "everybody staying firm for Blu-ray" kind of week ;)

(I posted this in the news thread)

Included in this article on this Denon is a review of the first use of the Silicon Optix Reon HQV. It gave the same results as the more expensive Realta HQV in this application.

This should be very good news for the HD XA2 standard definition DVD upconversion capabilities.

Speaking of the format wars, I’ve decided what would make for the ultimate combo-player, a Denon multi-format player that consists of whichever HD side wins and their own excellent up-scaling DVD playback.

http://www.hometheaterblog.com/home...qv_equippe.html

http://www.hometheaterblog.com/home..._dvd2930ci.html

Talk about predicting the future... not saying that HD DVD will win but....this might the ultimate combo player he predicted....

It's funny how HD-DVD supporters think universal players will be good for them. If universal players indeed become the norm, I think it's much more likely that studios will target the universal players plus the millions of PS3 owners with BDs than continue producing HD-DVDs...

It's funny how HD-DVD supporters think universal players will be good for them. If universal players indeed become the norm, I think it's much more likely that studios will target the universal players plus the millions of PS3 owners with BDs than continue producing HD-DVDs...

I'd agree with that to a certain degree, I think universal players may be the downfall of one side or the other and that downfall could just as easily go to HDDVD.

Of course I would only be guessing at this but think it would be likely that if universal players become the norm in the future, studios will be less inclined to release titles in more then one format, it would be cheaper for them to just have one release per title.

At that point would they go with the format that offers the most advantages or would they cater to the lowest common denominator between both formats

The Descent won't play on the Sony BDSP1 player from what I read - why?
Not why you think. :) But to answer your question would require revealing some advanced capabilities of BD movies and players that nobody here has noticed or mentioned yet, so I can't answer why.


Huh, the Sony and Pioneer player not being able to play this movie possibly due to lack of BD-Java support is a large problem specially considering more movies should be coming out soon that also use interactivity.

I dont think anyone here thinks either format is problem free but I do think someone needs to address this problem and explain what is being done about it and whether or not us consumers will need to base purchasing of future titles around what features may or may not be on it and which player we own.

"In recent interviews, executives at Fox and Disney were unequivocal in their support for Blu-ray. They said they believed that releasing DVDs in both formats would only prolong confusion and the emergence of a winning format. “I think the fastest way to end the format war is through decisiveness and strength,” said Bob Chapek, the president of Buena Vista Worldwide Entertainment, the home video arm of Walt Disney."

The above quote is from the article headlined on this forum today, regarding a the potential release of DVD's that can be played on both formats. Interesting the way this guy looks at it. Another take would be that releasing DVD's in both formats continues to give us, as consumers, a choice AND encourages competition. G-d forbid we have that. Also, his inference that we, as consumers, are so stupid that more than one choice "confuses us"....well, I think he knows where he can stick that, IMHO!

Bob Chapek is my hero.

did anyone read Warner Bros announcement of a new format combining both...... Is it me or is anyone sick of this crap of introducing new formats?

I'd agree with that to a certain degree, I think universal players may be the downfall of one side or the other and that downfall could just as easily go to HDDVD.

Of course I would only be guessing at this but think it would be likely that if universal players become the norm in the future, studios will be less inclined to release titles in more then one format, it would be cheaper for them to just have one release per title.

At that point would they go with the format that offers the most advantages or would they cater to the lowest common denominator between both formats


If multi format players do become the norm it's likely that a lot of customers will come off the fence. If sales numbers start to climb rapidly can BR disc production capacity keep up?

It should be fairly easy and cheap to ramp up HDDVD production capacity otoh ramping up BR disc production will be much more expensive.


Frank

"In recent interviews, executives at Fox and Disney were unequivocal in their support for Blu-ray. They said they believed that releasing DVDs in both formats would only prolong confusion and the emergence of a winning format. “I think the fastest way to end the format war is through decisiveness and strength,” said Bob Chapek, the president of Buena Vista Worldwide Entertainment, the home video arm of Walt Disney."


Well that's provided that BD member move in tandem. But looking at how LG and WB is breaking ranks I just don't see "decisiveness" or "strength" in BDA....

Bob Chapek is from the movie studio and stubborn about Blu-ray.

I think tsd2005 was referring to Bob Iger, the head of Disney, at the very top...

Correct again as usual efraope.

-Robert

Well that's provided that BD member move in tandem. But looking at how LG and WB is breaking ranks I just don't see "decisiveness" or "strength" in BDA....

The feeling I get is all of the companies and studios are making this a grand marketing experiment. We are the "wall" and they keep throwing their "spaghetti" of products at us to see which one "sticks". :)

I know Hollywood was caught off guard (in a good way) with the success of DVD and really want the same result ($$$) with a successor. Problem is that HD on shiny disc for the general public isn't nearly the value proposition as DVD was vs. VCR.

b2b

Well that's provided that BD member move in tandem. But looking at how LG and WB is breaking ranks I just don't see "decisiveness" or "strength" in BDA....

Huh? "WB" as in Warner Brothers? They were HD-DVD only first and later went "neutral", nobody would count them as a core BD supporter...

As for LG, they are quite sly IMO, because being first to market with a universal player would give them a unique selling point they could never dream to achieve otherwise, being not one of the more prestige CE brands... it may give them the opportunity to sell a premium priced product for once.

Huh? "WB" as in Warner Brothers? They were HD-DVD only first and later went "neutral", nobody would count them as a core BD supporter...

As for LG, they are quite sly IMO, because being first to market with a universal player would give them a unique selling point they could never dream to achieve otherwise, being not one of the more prestige CE brands... it may give them the opportunity to sell a premium priced product for once.

Somebody has to build those $5000.00 BluRay, HD-DVD, CD, DVD-A, SACD, VCD, S-VCD, DIVX, XVID, WMV, Photoshop, PictureCD, Harddrive, SatTuner, CableCard, Hi-Lo Defintion, Video Scaler players for Denon now don't they ??? :D

This of this as a "warm-up" product... ;)

b2b

HD DVD Ahead Slightly in HD Race in Europe (http://www.videostoremag.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10111)


An IPSOS survey in France, Germany and the United Kingdom conducted for the HD DVD Promotion Group from August to September last year found that 65% of respondents were familiar with next-generation high-definition format HD DVD, compared to 35% for rival format Blu-ray Disc.



Main points:

* From 56% to 61% of respondents would likely purchase HD DVD, compared to 32% to 36% who would purchase Blu-ray when told the names of the studios and consumer electronics manufacturers supporting each format.

* From 26% to 28% of French respondents would purchase PS3 specifically for the Blu-ray drive, compared to less than 20% in Germany and the United Kingdom.

* Among likely buyers (early adopters), interest between the two formats was nearly equal, with 54% favoring HD DVD, compared to 51% for Blu-ray.

Further research has discovered the LG "Combo" HD player will be added to the "Internet Refrigerator" line of products...
http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/lg_fridge-lg.jpg

The components of this system, which LG calls HomNet, are a refrigerator, washing machine, microwave oven, air conditioner and digital projection television. To network them, you just plug them in. LG has developed a new protocol, LnCP, which allows these Internet-aware appliances to use the existing electrical wires in your home to talk to one another.

b2b

:p lol

A fundamental problem I see with relying on a gaming console for format adoption/dominance and/or presuming that each gaming console, at least on the PS3 side, is automatically an HD player is that consider where the gaming console is consider the typical household, consider who the primary user of the PS3 is and then realize where the PS3 will be installed.

I know in my household, the gaming consoles are more or less forced into the kids' rooms as no one wants the main HD set taken up for incessant gaming while others want to watch TV/DVD/HD, etc.

Things are different in my household, but in the typical household, the gaming console would likely not land on the main HD set.

HD DVD Ahead Slightly in HD Race in Europe (http://www.videostoremag.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10111)



Main points:

* From 56% to 61% of respondents would likely purchase HD DVD, compared to 32% to 36% who would purchase Blu-ray when told the names of the studios and consumer electronics manufacturers supporting each format.

* From 26% to 28% of French respondents would purchase PS3 specifically for the Blu-ray drive, compared to less than 20% in Germany and the United Kingdom.

* Among likely buyers (early adopters), interest between the two formats was nearly equal, with 54% favoring HD DVD, compared to 51% for Blu-ray.


the bolded bullet-point strikes me as very odd and counter-intuitive?!?

It's so incredibly hypocritical to bash b2b while (repeatedly) defending rdjam. How come you never correct his many obvious mistakes, here and on his pro HD-DVD website?
I did not take the side of either argument. I just pointed out that when someone keeps quoting entire posts, highlights one line in red as to get a rise out of someone else, it is best to leave them alone until they say something new and useful. Rdjam was not doing that, b2b was.

And yes, I will not correct rdjam. You guys want to have fun bashing each other, you have to do that legwork youself :). If that makes me hypocritcal, that's fine. I will stand behind the long line of BD fans here, who have yet to ask a single question about these profiles or BD+ from any insider. :)

As for the universal player from LG, in a time-honoured HD-DVD tradition I shall declare it "science fiction" until it's actually available. :D
You should indeed. And I am serious. What is not science fiction is the ice breaking finally, with someone being brave enough from deep inside BDA to announce support for HD DVD. This part is not science fiction although I imagine it was just as difficult to come out and do so, as is going to the moon :).

BD-50 will never be as cheap as HD DVD-30. :).


Didn't someone say Sony was subsidizing the premium for BD Discs to Studios? Or was it the licensing Fee? For something like the first 4-5 years?

Not trying to spread rumors, just asking for verification if it's available. ;)

I did not take the side of either argument. I just pointed out that when someone keeps quoting entire posts, highlights one line in red as to get a rise out of someone else, it is best to leave them alone until they say something new and useful. Rdjam was not doing that, b2b was.

And yes, I will not correct rdjam. You guys want to have fun bashing each other, you have to do that legwork youself :). If that makes me hypocritcal, that's fine. I will stand behind the long line of BD fans here, who have yet to ask a single question about these profiles or BD+ from any insider. :)


You should indeed. And I am serious. What is not science fiction is the ice breaking finally, with someone being brave enough from deep inside BDA to announce support for HD DVD. This part is not science fiction although I imagine it was just as difficult to come out and do so, as is going to the moon :).

The reason I quoted the entire post was to "reload" rdjams "persistent storage" as to the facts to which he claimed I was "WRONG". That was a very long thread where rdjam went back and forth with his perception of how things "work" vs. Roger Dressler telling him how things really work (in a detailed professional manner). That ended up being one of the best technical discussions of how DD & DD+ work on both formats, very much in the sprit of "Science" which is still alive in bits and pieces here on AVS.. :)

As to putting the specific line in "red", I do that because of the two different "skins" that AVS offers, "AVS White" (which I use) and the default "AVS Dark Theater" skin which has a black background for text. "Bolding" in "red" is the only option that shows up very well on both "skins".

b2b

And yes, I will not correct rdjam. You guys want to have fun bashing each other, you have to do that legwork youself :). If that makes me hypocritcal, that's fine. I will stand behind the long line of BD fans here, who have yet to ask a single question about these profiles or BD+ from any insider. :)


Are you an engineer or an attorney, amir?

What is not science fiction is the ice breaking finally, with someone being brave enough from deep inside BDA to announce support for HD DVD. This part is not science fiction although I imagine it was just as difficult to come out and do so, as is going to the moon.

I understand that you would consider LG announcing an universal player to be some kind of "support for HD-DVD", but, as I already explained, I'm not sure universal players becoming the norm would be good news for HD-DVD... The "from deep inside BDA" part is a little hyperbolic, too. A universal player from Panasonic, Pioneer or Sony would fit that description a little better IMO.

I'm all for universal players, btw. I think they'll give consumers confidence to buy into HD discs in general.

Didn't someone say Sony was subsidizing the premium for BD Discs to Studios? Or was it the licensing Fee? For something like the first 4-5 years?

Not trying to spread rumors, just asking for verification if it's available. ;)
I doubt you'll get verification.

But I do think stating dual layer BD50 will never be as cheap as dual layer HD DVD 30 is a bit misleading. People like us have no numbers, but even if the physical replication cost differences are pennies per disc, you also have to take into consideration the total cost to produce what's actually ON the a disc. MPEG2 encodes for Paramount per the Insiders thread take 2 days whereas word is that it takes a lot longer with "hand-tweaked "VC-1. Does this cost to encode in VC-1 offset any physical replication cost differences?

Now, before some of the zealots jump on me and call me dis-ingenuous, let me just say that I am sure Microsoft is working on getting encode/ video compression time down. And with their team of "mercenaries" (:)) Amir has assembled, I think they will.

So then does it become a race of how quickly volume can drive BD50 cost close to HD DVD 30 vs how fast Microsoft can enable people to significantly reduce VC-1 encode time?

Amir, how about some commentary on this? I asked a few times in the Insider's thread how long it takes to encode VC-1, specifically something like World Trade Center. I got no answer.

In one of these threads one of the insiders indicated that VC-1 encodes for certain Warner titles were taking in the neigborhood of two weeks these days.

I'm all for universal players, btw. I think they'll give consumers confidence to buy into HD discs in general.

Only matters when they are less than $200 IMHO. Until then most people other than folks like us AVS'ers really don't care.

Are you an engineer or an attorney, amir?

You BD boys seriously need to lay off Amir.

This was the thread I recall the two weeks thing being mentioned in:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=771949

Now... for those of you that were following that thread, it was probably the best source of VC-1 information on the forums to date. It's therefore interesting to note that *every* single post that Cjplay contributed to that thread (and there were many), and every single response to his posts, has been deleted. So I think all of you conspiracy theorists who thought Cjplay being pulled from these forums had to do with BDA insiders, may want to start switching your conspiracy targets around...

This might have been viewed as proprietary information or trade secrets that should not have been disclosed.

He was pulled off because of a BD insider...he was threatened by him to not say anything critical about BD or else....well he did say something about Talladega Nights and now he is gone...is that a coincidence?

@Dave Vaughn: No that's not why he was pulled... read the original thread on the subject and I think that's quite clear. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=774550&page=2&pp=30

@Patrick99: I don't disagree. But it is definitely noteworthy.

@Patrick99: I don't disagree. But it is definitely noteworthy.

I definitely agree with that.

Of course Warner pulled the trigger but as Dave states it was first a BD insider here on AVS that stated he has turned in several people here and next thing ya know there goes CJplay... :(

xb...he was told by his employer to stop posting because someone from another company that they do business with complained about one of his posts, namely Talladega Nights. He apologized, but was still asked to not post anymore by his employer who received a complaint from a BD insider about his posts.

I have a PM from CJplay specifically about this.

It boils down to the fact that some new folks here couldn't let "what happend on AVS stay on AVS". As a result, we no longer have some valuable insight.

I, for one, am rather pissed that people felt the need to quash that.

xb...he was told by his employer to stop posting because someone from another company that they do business with complained about one of his posts, namely Talladega Nights. He apologized, but was still asked to not post anymore by his employer who received a complaint from a BD insider about his posts.

Well, it sounds like you know what you're talking about, so I'll demure and just leave it alone pending any insiders chiming in on the subject.

@Patrick: It looks like CJplays posts are still there in that thread, my PC justwasn't detecting them when I went to search. This forum has been acting *so* crazy lately! So I apologize there; I've actually deleted my original post on the subject. So, for those that haven't read it... that thread still remains one of the best on VC-1 there is. CJ and Ben are truly helpful in it.

(For example, it took five attempts to post this reply - what in the world is going on?)

Holy Crap. There's actually a thread dedicated to the subject of the format war?? :D I have been away too long.

Figured this talk about LG's Combo from Mugambo would get the wags tounging around here.

Now that I've had plenty of oppurtunity to play fairly extensively with both formats, I can see my fears from early on have been fully realized, to wit: this stage of Hi Def Disk for both formats, while an improvement over DVD, still isn't quite as good as I had been hoping for. Oh well, I could pin my hopes on 4 or 8K, but that still doesn't address the issue of the serendipitous quality of the masters or the encodiong.

This may be deemed heresy, but I'll be damned if I'm going to shell out serious bucks for the privilege of funding the patent revenue of each competing format, simply because they refuse to reach an accord. Screw that! If its going to come down to splitting the baby in half, then just like Solomon, I'm leaning towards the WB disk purely as a matter of principle. :D

I can't believe what a friggin' joke this whole thing has turned into simply because the studios were terrified of dropping below double digit disk growth. They better get the marketing equivalent of the Matrix revved up in high gear, because from what I've heard, J6P doesn't seem all that interested, and this mess is on the express train to niche city. ;)

______________________________________________________

Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Well, it sounds like you know what you're talking about, so I'll demure and just leave it alone pending any insiders chiming in on the subject.

@Patrick: It looks like CJplays posts are still there in that thread, my PC justwasn't detecting them when I went to search. This forum has been acting *so* crazy lately! So I apologize there; I've actually deleted my original post on the subject. So, for those that haven't read it... that thread still remains one of the best on VC-1 there is. CJ and Ben are truly helpful in it.

(For example, it took five attempts to post this reply - what in the world is going on?)

confirming: CJ's posts are still there: and AVS had nothing to do with his being asked not to post (we hope he will post again soon)

The server is overloaded because of volume:a new server will be on line soon:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9346042&&#post9346042

@Dave Vaughn: No that's not why he was pulled... read the original thread on the subject and I think that's quite clear. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=774550&page=2&pp=30

@Patrick99: I don't disagree. But it is definitely noteworthy.

So is this post from Raaj correct? Was CJplay pulled because of his comments about TN?

I feel sorry at the loss of an insider like CJ for expressing a frank assessment of a movie that is out in public domain. I have said this many times, but now I say this with conviction - "Talldega Nights: Ballad of Ricky Bobby" disc as bundled with the PS3 was pure and unadulterated crap of an HD encode, and rightfully deserved to be called "crap". If they had the gall to release such low quality stuff at the launch of perhaps the most important CE product/format of this decade, they should also have the balls to take the criticism.

Godspeed CJ. Keep up the good work. Your contributions and insights to this forum will be missed.

In the same thread Penton-man says he wasn't the one who narc'd on CJ, he only narc'd on Amir. I wonder if he pulled the full context of what Amir said or just relayed his own interpretation of Amir's comments.

In the same thread Penton-man says he wasn't the one who narc'd on CJ, he only narc'd on Amir. I wonder if he pulled the full context of what Amir said or just relayed his own interpretation of Amir's comments.

Narcing on Amir is acceptable? :eek:

People need to grow up and stop this, 'Im tellin crap'

It's funny how HD-DVD supporters think universal players will be good for them. If universal players indeed become the norm, I think it's much more likely that studios will target the universal players plus the millions of PS3 owners with BDs than continue producing HD-DVDs... Except that it is probably much cheaper to produce HD DVDs and there is more potential replication capacity for 2nd tier content providers to use.

If high end dual format players exist along with cheaper HD DVD players, then HD DVD has both ends of the market covered, while if Blu-ray can't produce cheaper players then dual format machines just cannabalize Blu-ray standalone sales.

Except that it is probably much cheaper to produce HD DVDs and there is more potential replication capacity for 2nd tier content providers to use.

If high end dual format players exist along with cheaper HD DVD players, then HD DVD has both ends of the market covered, while if Blu-ray can't produce cheaper players then dual format machines just cannabalize Blu-ray standalone sales.

Do you not allow for the possibility that BD-25 discs will end up being cheaper than HD-DVD-30 ??

Single layer, single pass thru the machine = quicker production times = less cost.

Add in the ever more bit-stingy VC-1 encoding (Thanks Amir.. :) ) + "good enough" DD audio and you have a new "low cost" solution for HD disc replication... ;)

b2b

Except that it is probably much cheaper to produce HD DVDs and there is more potential replication capacity for 2nd tier content providers to use.

When mass production really kicks in, I doubt the difference in cost between BDs and HD-DVDs, if it 'll even exist, will be big enough to be a decisive factor; much less in any case than millions of PS3s out there.

If high end dual format players exist along with cheaper HD DVD players, then HD DVD has both ends of the market covered, while if Blu-ray can't produce cheaper players then dual format machines just cannabalize Blu-ray standalone sales.

Who will buy a HD-DVD player when universal players are coming out? If they're too expensive, J6P will just wait until they're cheap enough. He's not that desperate for HD discs, you know. Besides, Blu-ray players will also get cheaper; I don't think there is an inherent technical reason HD-DVD players will be cheaper in the future. They were/are cheaper now because Toshiba and Microsoft subsidzed them (first gen) or go for lower margins (second gen) because being first/cheaper to market was the only chance they had to make any sort of impact.

I have been going through some of the recent reviews of BD discs on highdefdigest and notice that most of the recent bd releases seem to be falling back to using mpeg-2??

Holy Crap. There's actually a thread dedicated to the subject of the format war?? :D I have been away too long.

Figured this talk about LG's Combo from Mugambo would get the wags tounging around here.

Now that I've had plenty of oppurtunity to play fairly extensively with both formats, I can see my fears from early on have been fully realized, to wit: this stage of Hi Def Disk for both formats, while an improvement over DVD, still isn't quite as good as I had been hoping for. Oh well, I could pin my hopes on 4 or 8K, but that still doesn't address the issue of the serendipitous quality of the masters or the encodiong.

This may be deemed heresy, but I'll be damned if I'm going to shell out serious bucks for the privilege of funding the patent revenue of each competing format, simply because they refuse to reach an accord. Screw that! If its going to come down to splitting the baby in half, then just like Solomon, I'm leaning towards the WB disk purely as a matter of principle. :D

I can't believe what a friggin' joke this whole thing has turned into simply because the studios were terrified of dropping below double digit disk growth. They better get the marketing equivalent of the Matrix revved up in high gear, because from what I've heard, J6P doesn't seem all that interested, and this mess is on the express train to niche city. ;)

______________________________________________________

Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

A Soap Opera for sure... What shall we call it... ?

Umm....

The Guiding Blu-Light...? nah..

As the Disc Turns...? nope..

One Disc to Live... yea, that sounds good

:D

b2b

I have been going through some of the recent reviews of BD discs on highdefdigest and notice that most of the recent bd releases seem to be falling back to using mpeg-2??

You mean like MI-3, which by most accounts have identical quality between the HD-DVD release (a VC-1 encode) and the Blu-Ray release (on MPEG2, quel horreur!)?

You mean like MI-3, which by most accounts have identical quality between the HD-DVD release (a VC-1 encode) and the Blu-Ray release (on MPEG2, quel horreur!)?

was that a yes or no on the apparent trend, i wasn't quite sure? ;)

I have been going through some of the recent reviews of BD discs on highdefdigest and notice that most of the recent bd releases seem to be falling back to using mpeg-2??Not sure about Sony and Fox, but Disney has used VC-1 and we'll get to see what their next releases use. I'm not sure what Lionsgate has used recently.

--Darin

A Soap Opera for sure... What shall we call it... ?

Umm....

The Guiding Blu-Light...? nah..

As the Disc Turns...? nope..

One Disc to Live... yea, that sounds good

:D

b2b

Days of our Discs?

The Young and the Disinterested?

The Edge of Blight?

Who will buy a HD-DVD player when universal players are coming out? If they're too expensive, J6P will just wait until they're cheap enough. He's not that desperate for HD discs, you know. Besides, Blu-ray players will also get cheaper; I don't think there is an inherent technical reason HD-DVD players will be cheaper in the future. They were/are cheaper now because Toshiba and Microsoft subsidzed them (first gen) or go for lower margins (second gen) because being first/cheaper to market was the only chance they had to make any sort of impact.Whether subsidized or not, there is a desire on the part of Toshiba/MS to put out cheaper players -- to win early market share. On the other hand, all the BD CE companies are following traditional pricing which is not helping initial penetration. Overconfidence? Over-reliance on PS3?

I think if Toshiba further lowers the price, and manages to get at least a couple of more CE companies on board, Blu-ray will have even tougher fight on hand. US is a very price sensitive market. If you add common perception that HD-DVD is giving better quality and has cheaper price, it makes it even tougher for Blu-ray.

Another point is a strong customer support (from what I have read). BD companies are really, really slow to respond with customer support. Not good. Toshiba has been very quick with updates before people got antsy about a particular issue. And then, there is Amir, a senior VP at MS, providing customer support (he does many other things, but can you blame him?) and he has expedited a lot of issue resolutions! Kudos to him and Toshiba. This is truly an age of internet. Perception means a lot to a lot of people, I think. BD companies really need to step into the 21st century, and move a little quicker -- a lot quicker.

I am mostly talking about price and perception. BDA grossly under-estimated HD-DVD. I have no doubt in my mind about that.

I don't know who will win; just my few cents. I still think Blu-ray will win, but not necessarily (and no longer) for the right reasons. I fully support Blu-ray (because there are many other factors, and I don't buy based on perception).

In one of these threads one of the insiders indicated that VC-1 encodes for certain Warner titles were taking in the neigborhood of two weeks these days.

As an end user that simply wants the best possible product why does this matter to me?

As an end user that simply wants the best possible product why does this matter to me?

It might possibly be an indication of the likely quality of the result; someone connected with another studio suggested theirs were taking only a couple of days.

Whether subsidized or not, there is a desire on the part of Toshiba/MS to put out cheaper players -- to win early market share. On the other hand, all the BD CE companies are following traditional pricing which is not helping initial penetration. Overconfidence? Over-reliance on PS3?

I think if Toshiba further lowers the price, and manages to get at least a couple of more CE companies on board, Blu-ray will have even tougher fight on hand. US is a very price sensitive market. If you add common perception that HD-DVD is giving better quality and has cheaper price, it makes it even tougher for Blu-ray.

Another point is a strong customer support (from what I have read). BD companies are really, really slow to respond with customer support. Not good. Toshiba has been very quick with updates before people got antsy about a particular issue. And then, there is Amir, a senior VP at MS, providing customer support (he does many other things, but can you blame him?) and he has expedited a lot of issue resolutions! Kudos to him and Toshiba. This is truly an age of internet. Perception means a lot to a lot of people, I think. BD companies really need to step into the 21st century, and move a little quicker -- a lot quicker.

I am mostly talking about price and perception. BDA grossly under-estimated HD-DVD. I have no doubt in my mind about that.

I don't know who will win; just my few cents. I still think Blu-ray will win, but not necessarily (and no longer) for the right reasons. I fully support Blu-ray (because there are many other factors, and I don't buy based on perception).

I really loved this post kdragon. You bring up a number of points I've made in the past. Toshiba and MS are working harder to earn the business. They are agressively pushing down the price of players, they are very focused on customer satisfaction (both in the quality of the players as well as the VC1 encodes). BD companies treet their customers very differently.

In my mind this isn't about buying based on perception, this is about buying based on many criteria. When I buy a new car I don't just look at the horsepower of the engines. There are many other important criteria to consider, including service and support.

As an end user that simply wants the best possible product why does this matter to me?I guess the context was faster MPEG2 encoding times making BD50's capacity more favorable. I don't know how important that is, though.

I guess the context was faster MPEG2 encoding times making BD50's capacity more favorable. I don't know how important that is, though.

I am not sure that I see the connection.

I really loved this post kdragon. You bring up a number of points I've made in the past. Toshiba and MS are working harder to earn the business. They are agressively pushing down the price of players, they are very focused on customer satisfaction (both in the quality of the players as well as the VC1 encodes). BD companies treet their customers very differently.

In my mind this isn't about buying based on perception, this is about buying based on many criteria. When I buy a new car I don't just look at the horsepower of the engines. There are many other important criteria to consider, including service and support.Thanks. However, my money is still on Blu-ray (but no longer for the reasons I went with Blu-ray in the first place; VC-1 has changed many things)! :)

I am not sure that I see the connection.Connection is that xbdestroya made his post after this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9353754&&#post9353754) post. You can throw bits at MPEG2 encoder since there is capacity and bandwidth (BD50) to accommodate that without much tweaking and still maintaining quality. Sony's MPEG2 encoder is realtime, hence faster. This would allow a studio to churn out titles faster. Anyway, it is not my line of thinking (I mean I don't assign too much weight to this). I was explaining the context. I should let xbdestroya explain what he meant.

A Soap Opera for sure... What shall we call it... ?

Umm....

The Guiding Blu-Light...? nah..

As the Disc Turns...? nope..

One Disc to Live... yea, that sounds good

:D
b2b

Days of our Discs?

The Young and the Disinterested?

The Edge of Blight?
I was thinking maybe something that better reflects all the pretentious intrigue.

How ‘bout…

‘ Live and Let Diode’ ;)



And then, there is Amir, a senior VP at MS, providing customer support (he does many other things, but can you blame him?)....
Geez, barely back a day and temptation is already rearing its head. :D

As to your comments on HD DVD strategy, I'l say this to be fair. It recognized that it was the Avis (#2) in terms of strategy, and has played a decent game of catch-up ball in response. :)

______________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Are you an engineer or an attorney, amir?

I think you must be missing a smiley. :p Otherwise, I don't know where that is going.

BTW, I am an engineer (well, not a "real" engineer, but a software engineer) just in case you were curious and never ever thought of becoming an attorney. ;)

Hong.

...BTW, I am an engineer (well, not a "real" engineer, but a software engineer) just in case you were curious... ;)
I knew software engineers are not real engineers! Thanks for making hardware engineers feel good! :D :p j/k

And then, there is Amir, a senior VP at MS, providing customer support (he does many other things, but can you blame him?)....
Geez, barely back a day and temptation is already rearing its head. :D
Please don't! :) There are times to criticize, but I give credit when credit is due.

Welcome back.

I knew software engineers are not real engineers! Thanks for making hardware engineers feel good! :D :p j/k

Well, I was thinking more of a "civil" engineer, but still... :p

Hong.

As an end user that simply wants the best possible product why does this matter to me?Here is the way I would put it. It is a little bit like if we go back to the early days of HD with DIRECTV and somebody asking why it matters whether DIRECTV has enough bandwidth with their satellites to give us more HD channels without degrading them. Early on they weren't doing the degradation of both bandwidth and resolution that they are doing now. This case is a little different, but the idea where the provider acts one way during the early adopter phase and a different way when things get closer to mass market has similarities. If we want to know how the studios act with more mature products we need to look at the DVD market, not the HD DVD or Blu-ray markets. Much like if you could look at how somebody acts during marriage that should be more important to whether you want to marry them than how they act during the dating period.

In this case, at least some studios have been going way above and beyond as far as spending time and money to make sure the encodes were the best. And this makes some sense economically for people that want HD to take off, especially when they want one side to win and are trying to help it. But things are unlikely to stay that way. Looking at the DVD market we should be able to see that some titles get the green light to have lots of time put into making them their best, but most titles don't get allocated all that much time at all. And whether one format or the other wins, that is most likely going to be the case if these things go more mainstream. I have little doubt that there will be plenty of titles where the encoding people are given a couple of days max in the future, even if it doesn't look like this will be enough time to get maximum quality. The encoders should improve, so hopefully they can minimize the impact of shorter schedules for encoding people.

I would expect some people on this site who have followed what has happened with HD on satellites and been frustrated by it to make the connection with how priorities can change as things become more mass market.

--Darin

Connection is that xbdestroya made his post after this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9353754&&#post9353754) post. You can throw bits at MPEG2 encoder since there is capacity and bandwidth (BD50) to accommodate that without much tweaking and still maintaining quality. Sony's MPEG2 encoder is realtime, hence faster. This would allow a studio to churn out titles faster. Anyway, it is not my line of thinking (I mean I don't assign too much weight to this). I was explaining the context. I should let xbdestroya explain what he meant.

@Patrick and Ezra also...

There's really no connection per se; I was simply chiming in with regard to Esox50's question in the last sentence of his post above mine. What Esox was basically asking was: does the lessened cost of an MPEG-2 BD encode perhaps outweigh the increased replication cost studios might face?

I wasn't speaking to that, but rather just throwing some info out. Seriously that VC-1 thread I linked is the best there is - it should be required reading.

So we've got Sony's realtime encoder at roughly two days, and the present 'typical' VC-1 effort at two weeks. For VC-1's part, it was also indicated that the VC-1 encode process is getting progressively faster.

So we've got Sony's realtime encoder at roughly two days, and the present 'typical' VC-1 effort at two weeks.
This is not quite right. What you have is Warner spending two weeks encoding their titles, and Sony using two days to do the same. You have no data to indicate that using MPEG-2, Warner would only spend two days. Or that if Sony used VC-1, they would also take two weeks to produce a movie.

FYI there are movies that encode faster in VC-1, than they did in MPEG-2 for SD DVD. Some of the studios spend two weeks on SD DVDs also.

Also, our VC-1 encoder provides many more controls than MPEG-2 and that invites experimentation to see which combination produces better results. This adds to encoding time.

Not saying VC-1 is as fast as MPEG-2 hardware but that there are a lot of variables here. Not just one encoder versus the other.

In my book, anyone who targets a two-day encode no matter what, is putting the schedule ahead of best quality.

Here is the way I would put it. It is a little bit like if we go back to the early days of HD with DIRECTV and somebody asking why it matters whether DIRECTV has enough bandwidth with their satellites to give us more HD channels without degrading them. Early on they weren't doing the degradation of both bandwidth and resolution that they are doing now. This case is a little different, but the idea where the provider acts one way during the early adopter phase and a different way when things get closer to mass market has similarities. If we want to know how the studios act with more mature products we need to look at the DVD market, not the HD DVD or Blu-ray markets. Much like if you could look at how somebody acts during marriage that should be more important to whether you want to marry them than how they act during the dating period.

In this case, at least some studios have been going way above and beyond as far as spending time and money to make sure the encodes were the best. And this makes some sense economically for people that want HD to take off, especially when they want one side to win and are trying to help it. But things are unlikely to stay that way. Looking at the DVD market we should be able to see that some titles get the green light to have lots of time put into making them their best, but most titles don't get allocated all that much time at all. And whether one format or the other wins, that is most likely going to be the case if these things go more mainstream. I have little doubt that there will be plenty of titles where the encoding people are given a couple of days max in the future, even if it doesn't look like this will be enough time to get maximum quality. The encoders should improve, so hopefully they can minimize the impact of shorter schedules for encoding people.

I would expect some people on this site who have followed what has happened with HD on satellites and been frustrated by it to make the connection with how priorities can change as things become more mass market.

--Darin

i certainly see what you are trying to say but i don't think the satellite analogy works given satellite quality has dropped due to bandwidth issues, not time to encode.

additionally, if one thinks that vc-1 or avc (hell, there are already real-time avc encoders and it is by far more intesive than vc-1 by all accounts) won't be doing real-time or 2-day encodes soon they aren't keeping in tune with the progression of technology, computing power, etc.

This is not quite right. What you have is Warner spending two weeks encoding their titles, and Sony using two days to do the same. You have no data to indicate that using MPEG-2, Warner would only spend two days. Or that if Sony used VC-1, they would also take two weeks to produce a movie.

I didn't think I had to add those qualifiers... but ok, consider them added. ;)

To be clear, I'm saying that Warner takes ~two weeks on the VC-1 encodes, and Sony takes two days on their MPEG-2 encodes. A major difference in the time it takes a studio to do VC-1 would obviously be the experience of their own team relative to Warners (our arbitrary benchmark for these purposes), and a major difference in the time it takes for an MPEG-2 encode would obviously be the tools. Though I doubt many studios couldn't get close to two days on MPEG-2 in this day and age.

Please do not shoot the messenger!

Found this "rumor" article on the web.

1. A PS3 model without Blu-Ray
2. Toshiba and a sub $200 HD DVD player

Does this make any sense? I fine this very difficult to believe.



Dismal PS3 Launch Forces Sony to Discard Blu Ray

by Bandito on 2007/1/4 21:50:40 (422)
GadgetNutz's storybreaking reporter, The Bandito, has uncovered a developing story concerning Sony via his network of industry insiders.
.
.
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Sony is rumored to be making drastic changes to recapture the market before losing even more of it's command share to the likes of Nintendo (the success story of the holiday season) or the XBox 360 (still suffering in the land of the rising sun, but gaining momentum everywhere else). In a move that is "aimed at family pricing," Sony is rumored to be working on a Playstation 3 that does not include the Blu Ray drive. Whether this will result in the current low-end model having a change, or a newer "entry level" Playstation 3, remains to be seen. However, this is in stark contrast to their previous, egocentric, statements regarding "what kind of consumer"* will be looking at the Playstation 3.

To further fuel the fire, Toshiba has been reported to be getting ready to announce at CES (The Consumer Electronics Show) a new HDDVD player in the sub-two hundred dollar range. If these reports hold to be true, Sony's Blu Ray hopes may be dashed in even more markets than just that of the video-game arena. The steep pricing of Blu Ray players already make the Playstation 3 the entry level model, and Toshiba may have just put the nail in the coffin of this format. This holiday season was Sony's chance to leap ahead of the HDDVD format, establishing Blu Ray in the consumer market.
http://www.gadgetnutz.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=00264

Well, I'm not going to shoot the messenger... but I want to! ;)

Seriously - that is the most ridiculous attention grabbing article one could write at this point in time. Let's just boil it down to this: a PS3 without Blu-ray, can't play PS3 games. PS3 games are all on Blu-ray.

And what are the launch standards these days? I have nothing against the 360, but I do want to point out that the PS3 launch "beat" it in number of units both available and sold.

Well, I'm not going to shoot the messenger... but I want to! ;)

Seriously - that is the most ridiculous attention grabbing article one could write at this point in time. Let's just boil it down to this: a PS3 without Blu-ray, can't play PS3 games. PS3 games are all on Blu-ray.

And what are the launch standards these days? I have nothing against the 360, but I do want to point out that the PS3 launch "beat" it in number of units both available and sold.

The only way that would be possible is if the PS3 games released to data on Blu-ray PS3 discs can actually fit on BD-9's i(e a red laser readable DVD physical structured disc in Blu-ray data format)

At this point, thats probably true, but that is very inprobable as it would create two seperate PS3 worlds.

A $199 HD DVD player is also unlikely too!

The only way that would be possible is if the PS3 games released to data on Blu-ray PS3 discs can actually fit on BD-9's i(e a red laser readable DVD physical structured disc in Blu-ray data format)And not just titles released to date, but titles developers are working on where they have been told that they can use 25GB discs and might need to rework things. I don't see it flying. I think they've made their bed and we'll see how things work out.

--Darin

Found this "rumor" article on the web.

1. A PS3 model without Blu-Ray
2. Toshiba and a sub $200 HD DVD player

Does this make any sense?No, but it was good for a laugh. One of the things you have to like about the internet is that you get some very far out rumors at times. In fact I think some rumors spread around the internet simply because of how far out they are.

The only way that would be possible is if the PS3 games released to data on Blu-ray PS3 discs can actually fit on BD-9's i(e a red laser readable DVD physical structured disc in Blu-ray data format)

At this point, thats probably true, but that is very inprobable as it would create two seperate PS3 worlds.

A $199 HD DVD player is also unlikely too!

There's no reason to even go through the mental excercise though. The fact is, you couldn't play any of the current discs on such a Playstation 3; they simply wouldn't run. There are a couple of games that greatly exceed that BD-9 capacity as well, even now. Granted it's my opinion that they could be made to fit, but their data structuring at present 'fills out' some of those spare GB's on BD.

This idea of a non-BD PS3 is total BS. If they were even considering such a thing, they would have had the launch games launch on DVD.

When mass production really kicks in, I doubt the difference in cost between BDs and HD-DVDs, if it 'll even exist, will be big enough to be a decisive factor; much less in any case than millions of PS3s out there.



Who will buy a HD-DVD player when universal players are coming out? If they're too expensive, J6P will just wait until they're cheap enough. He's not that desperate for HD discs, you know. Besides, Blu-ray players will also get cheaper; I don't think there is an inherent technical reason HD-DVD players will be cheaper in the future. They were/are cheaper now because Toshiba and Microsoft subsidzed them (first gen) or go for lower margins (second gen) because being first/cheaper to market was the only chance they had to make any sort of impact.

Wouldn't you also consider the PS3 a subsidized player? I understand the cost of PS3 is Delta 280.

HD DVD Ahead Slightly in HD Race in Europe (http://www.videostoremag.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10111)



Main points:

* From 56% to 61% of respondents would likely purchase HD DVD, compared to 32% to 36% who would purchase Blu-ray when told the names of the studios and consumer electronics manufacturers supporting each format.
Apparently people dont care much about the content or they love the HD-dvd manufacturers. This is a thinker

Well, I'm not going to shoot the messenger... but I want to! ;)

Seriously - that is the most ridiculous attention grabbing article one could write at this point in time. Let's just boil it down to this: a PS3 without Blu-ray, can't play PS3 games. PS3 games are all on Blu-ray.

And what are the launch standards these days? I have nothing against the 360, but I do want to point out that the PS3 launch "beat" it in number of units both available and sold.

I agree with the first point ... PS3 games are on Blu-Ray discs, so they need the player to play games.

However, I don't think PS3 'beat' Xbox 360 in number of units available/sold. Perhaps in a single market, but Xbox 360 was launched 'Worldwide', including the Europe Territory. PS3 has yet to launch there, and there are rumors that a March 2007 release there will be pushed back. :confused:

I agree with the first point ... PS3 games are on Blu-Ray discs, so they need the player to play games.

However, I don't think PS3 'beat' Xbox 360 in number of units available/sold. Perhaps in a single market, but Xbox 360 was launched 'Worldwide', including the Europe Territory.

Fair enough. Well, pending reviewing the exact to-year-end sales figures of each console during their launches, we'll say that in the US and in Japan, PS3 far outsold the 360 during it's launch. And I'm not ruling out globally either yet to be honest with you.

PS3 has yet to launch there, and there are rumors that a March 2007 release there will be pushed back. :confused:

Well, I'm happy to make a bet that it launches this Spring in Europe for anyone feeling adventurous. :)

Well on a different note.... Seems like the invasion of Chinese HD-DVD players has begun. Not the cheap ones, but rather the Toshiba XA2 is being reported to have the orgin of China. Wonder if the A2 and XA2 mfg. design will end up being used for non-Toshiba brands in the near future ??

b2b

I can easily see the A2 being sold/licenced as a refernce design.

Here is the way I would put it. It is a little bit like if we go back to the early days of HD with DIRECTV and somebody asking why it matters whether DIRECTV has enough bandwidth with their satellites to give us more HD channels without degrading them. Early on they weren't doing the degradation of both bandwidth and resolution that they are doing now. This case is a little different, but the idea where the provider acts one way during the early adopter phase and a different way when things get closer to mass market has similarities. If we want to know how the studios act with more mature products we need to look at the DVD market, not the HD DVD or Blu-ray markets. Much like if you could look at how somebody acts during marriage that should be more important to whether you want to marry them than how they act during the dating period.

In this case, at least some studios have been going way above and beyond as far as spending time and money to make sure the encodes were the best. And this makes some sense economically for people that want HD to take off, especially when they want one side to win and are trying to help it. But things are unlikely to stay that way. Looking at the DVD market we should be able to see that some titles get the green light to have lots of time put into making them their best, but most titles don't get allocated all that much time at all. And whether one format or the other wins, that is most likely going to be the case if these things go more mainstream. I have little doubt that there will be plenty of titles where the encoding people are given a couple of days max in the future, even if it doesn't look like this will be enough time to get maximum quality. The encoders should improve, so hopefully they can minimize the impact of shorter schedules for encoding people.

I would expect some people on this site who have followed what has happened with HD on satellites and been frustrated by it to make the connection with how priorities can change as things become more mass market.

--Darin


I don't think this analogy works. Directv has "crippled" their HD because of bandwidth limitations. They need more sats to keep up with the demand for more channels and PQ has suffered. As a DirectV subscriber, I hope they get this sorted out with mpeg4 and more sats, or I will be going back to cable...

But in any case, I don't think studios are going to intentionally cut back on quality. Sure, some titles will get more attention....but that is true for DVD. After all, we all have reference DVD's. But encoders will get better and faster and newer methods will be developed to cut down on time and cost while potentially upping quality.

In any case, we have examples of movies on the new HD formats that obviously look BAD...Taladega Nights, 5th Element.

Fair enough. Well, pending reviewing the exact to-year-end sales figures of each console during their launches, we'll say that in the US and in Japan, PS3 far outsold the 360 during it's launch. And I'm not ruling out globally either yet to be honest with you.


Japan yes, NA not so much I don't think ... but if you consider all territories, Microsoft definitely had more units available through end of year than Sony did.


Well, I'm happy to make a bet that it launches this Spring in Europe for anyone feeling adventurous. :)

I hope it does to be honest ... it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. Maybe they'll get their 4-6 million. ;)

i certainly see what you are trying to say but i don't think the satellite analogy works given satellite quality has dropped due to bandwidth issues, not time to encode.
I don't think this analogy works. Directv has "crippled" their HD because of bandwidth limitations.
Does the analogy of behavior while dating vs behavior while married also not apply because it doesn't deal with time to encode? :)

As I said:
This case is a little different, but the idea where the provider acts one way during the early adopter phase and a different way when things get closer to mass market has similarities.
Quality on satellite has dropped because they had to make a choice and they made it in the direction of lower quality. Yes, there is an underlying reason for that which is bandwidth in their case, but it goes to the fundamental thing about different behavior at different times depending on what is important. Early adopters can feel like they will always be the most important if they are given highest priority early on, but that seldom holds.
But in any case, I don't think studios are going to intentionally cut back on quality. Sure, some titles will get more attention....but that is true for DVD.Exactly. Some DVDs get more attention and it tends to have a correlation with how many they will sell (more popular titles get more time and money in general). We can look at the DVD market and get a better idea of what they will do with HD in the long run than just looking at the early phase of the HD market where there was a big incentive to spend more money. Of course encoders should get better as I said and hopefully offset reduced schedules, but the question was why it should matter to people how long these things have taken and I think we've gone over why. If things like "Batman Begins" took 2 days to get looking like it did with the bandwidth ceiling it had then that would be quite a bit different than taking weeks.

--Darin

I can easily see the A2 being sold/licenced as a refernce design.

The only downside is still the combined cost of both a Intel CPU + the dedicated NEC decoder chip would seem to end up being more than using a single SoC design like the Sigma chipset.

I also suspect that Toshiba SoC players are well on there way to replacing the current PC architecture that both the 1G and 2G use. Maybe they will announce their grand plans at CES. ;) But that seems a bit early considering the A2 & XA2 have just started selling.

b2b

btw ... do Studio's and the like read threads like this? Because, seriously ... if Disney would start releasing titles on HD-DVD, we'd pretty much buy them all. We have a Disney Illness.

btw ... do Studio's and the like read threads like this? Because, seriously ... if Disney would start releasing titles on HD-DVD, we'd pretty much buy them all. We have a Disney Illness.

Well then, I'll trust you'll enjoy them on BD if your illness is so severe.

Japan yes, NA not so much I don't think ... but if you consider all territories, Microsoft definitely had more units available through end of year than Sony did.

Well I'm willing to make a bet on this also if you like.

btw ... do Studio's and the like read threads like this? Because, seriously ... if Disney would start releasing titles on HD-DVD, we'd pretty much buy them all. We have a Disney Illness.
There is a pill for that illness, it's blue in colour though :)

Guaranteed to work.

Umm.. Not to be picking at you, but I though that Xb360 re-encoded to DD 640kbs.

b2bHiya b,

MS has announced an update that will allow the 360 to do the DTS 1.5 mbps recode, like the A1, XA1 do.


So with the dual format players...now what?

I bet every other CE company who is showing a standalone at CES for either BD or HD DVD is going to be pissed off.

And how are the studios going to react? Not everyone will have a dual format player, so will WB & Paramount still produce on both formats, or just pick one? Will the BD exclusive studios go "cheap" and start producing HD DVD in lieu of (or maybe in addition to) BD? Will Universal eventually see so many PS3s in a year or so that they "have to" start producing BDs in order to get the PS3 mkt (i.e. millions of folks who migth never be dual format)?

What do you guys think?
I've put my thoughts up here: The Impact of Dual-Format HD Players (http://www.hdnowonline.com/Comment_Universal_Players.html)

There is a pill for that illness, it's blue in colour though :)

Guaranteed to work.

Wow ... didn't take long for you guys to jump on that ... :lol: ;)

Of course, the blue solution costs a lot of green. ;)

True. But even if it were massively delayed, overpriced, underfeatured and clunky, the mere notion of a universal player will discourage a lot of potential HD DVD and BD buyers from buying single-format players, especially upper-tier ones.

Example: me. I was thinking of upgrading my Toshiba HD-A1 to an XE1/XA2 (1080p24 and all). Now I probably won't buy any more hardware (except maybe a PS3 or supercheap BD, if there is such a thing) for the rest of the year.
Hi Grubert, I understand what you're saying.

On one hand I agree, but on the other I disagree, so I think that that is a bit of a generalization.

The Dual-format players will carry a hefty premium, so they will not affect sales at the low end of the market at all, in my opinion. Players such as the HD DVD addon and the A2 will continue to sell, as they will likely be under half the price, and therefore the only consideration of that market.

However, where I agree with you is on the high-end. Any $1,000 players will be more or les the same price as the Dual-format players and will likely be rejected by Buyers in favor of the machine that can play both formats.

I think any player over $700 will have to justify itself with Unique Selling Points to win over a Dual-format player.

I am going ahead with my XA2 purchase, because I do not believe that these 1st-year hybrid players will have 1080p24, Silicon Optix HQV scaling or Deep Color HDMI 1.3.

The players that are going to get hurt are the $1,000 Bluray players without a lot of features (ie Networking and advanced audio decoders).

Remember, that to meet the HD DVD player spec, the LG player will have to have a network port and advanced audio decoders, so these 1st gen Bluray players will feel the pinch when that thing lands.

I am going ahead with my XA2 purchase, because I do not believe that these 1st-year hybrid players will have 1080p24, Silicon Optix HQV scaling or Deep Color HDMI 1.3.I'm curious. With the amount of HD out there, what percentage of the time do you expect to be watching DVDs? I thought you were going to get a high end projector, but don't recall how that has gone.

Basically, I understand that some people watch a fair amount of DVD content, but I can't even keep up with all the HD. Are you excited about the HQV scaling for DVDs or for HD?

--Darin

Hiya b,

MS has announced an update that will allow the 360 to do the DTS 1.5 mbps recode, like the A1, XA1 do.



I've put my thoughts up here: The Impact of Dual-Format HD Players (http://www.hdnowonline.com/Comment_Universal_Players.html)

So when did the MSRP of the XA2 become $799 or is that just a bit of pre-announcement for CES..

However, the Toshiba XA2, their second generation high-end HD DVD player, will be less affected by the entrance of the LG hybrid player. Why? First, at a retail price of $799,

That's quite a "hobby" you got going on over there... ;)

b2b

Wow ... didn't take long for you guys to jump on that ... :lol: ;)

Of course, the blue solution costs a lot of green. ;)
Yeah, it was a total gimme :) thanks for that.

My "clever" joke of the day being done, I retire amidst applause. Thank you, I am here all week.

I have been going through some of the recent reviews of BD discs on highdefdigest and notice that most of the recent bd releases seem to be falling back to using mpeg-2??
Hi Ben,

I was mulling your question over and the only thing I can think of offhand is that maybe the Bluray authoring tools are still not quite ready, in relation to VC1.

I thought about XB's response also, but I don't think I agree with his statement re: VC1 taking "weeks" to encode. If that were the reason, then Warner wouldn't have released the VC1 on HD DVD either. It's got to be the BD tools.

I was talking to someone today about HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and the topic of capacity came up ... can someone please confirm/update the following understandings?

HD-DVD: 15gb/30gb, most titles (if not all?) are on DL media already @ 30gb. Peak BW? Most titles encoded with VC-1. Potential for Layer3 for 45gb total space? Discs can be Double-Sided. Same susceptability to scratch as DVD.

Blu-Ray: 25gb/50gb, most titles are on 25gb at this time? Cost or Defect Rate the reason for lack of 50gb? Or just the extra space hasn't been needed yet? Peak BW? Mosts titles encoded MPEG2, some VC-1. Discs cannot be double-sided. Less likely to scratch than DVD.

I'm sure some of that isn't correct ... but I'd like to know for sure ... minus the spin, of course. I don't care which is better, just would like to know. :)

I have no idea if objective scratch information is available. 45 GB HD-DVD not in the spec, just like 100 GB and 200 GB BD not in the spec.

Not every movie needs more than 25 GB. More 50 GB titles announced all the time.

And don't forget important bandwidth differences:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8358387&&#post8358387

I was talking to someone today about HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and the topic of capacity came up ... can someone please confirm/update the following understandings?

HD-DVD: 15gb/30gb, most titles (if not all?) are on DL media already @ 30gb. Peak BW? Most titles encoded with VC-1. Potential for Layer3 for 45gb total space? Discs can be Double-Sided. Same susceptability to scratch as DVD.
Max BW is 30mbps. Rumors come and go about TL 45GB discs, no rumors as of late.

Blu-Ray: 25gb/50gb, most titles are on 25gb at this time? Cost or Defect Rate the reason for lack of 50gb? Or just the extra space hasn't been needed yet? Peak BW? Mosts titles encoded MPEG2, some VC-1. Discs cannot be double-sided. Less likely to scratch than DVD.
Max BW 48mbps. Sony insider said that plans for new releases to be 75-80% 50GB. Video codec depends on whatever the studio chooses (I think Sony is all MPEG2 ?)

I'm sure some of that isn't correct ... but I'd like to know for sure ... minus the spin, of course. I don't care which is better, just would like to know. :)

Easy questions.. simple answers... :)

b2b

I thought you were going to get a high end projector, Yes, that's one of the reasons I'll be at CES

HQV scaling for DVDs or for HD?For DVDs, I'm still watching DVDs for a few Non-HD DVD studios ;) I have a pretty nice setup, with a Realta (Vantage HD) so I'm also excited for the other users who'll be bringing their first HQV product home - it's an awesome scaler.

The only downside is still the combined cost of both a Intel CPU + the dedicated NEC decoder chip would seem to end up being more than using a single SoC design like the Sigma chipset.

I also suspect that Toshiba SoC players are well on there way to replacing the current PC architecture that both the 1G and 2G use. Maybe they will announce their grand plans at CES. ;) But that seems a bit early considering the A2 & XA2 have just started selling.

b2b Agree with you here totally.

I would expect the next Toshiba designs to be announce at Cedia next fall.

It is entirely possible that another manufacturer could announce a lower priced player or a MSRP or MAP price drop could be announced for the HD A2, but I think that is unlikely as well.

To early for the price drops if the HD A2 and HD XA2 are selling like hotcakes. :)

So when did the MSRP of the XA2 become $799 or is that just a bit of pre-announcement for CES..
Whoops, typo! :o All fixed now.

Thanks, b

Agree with you here totally.

I would expect the next Toshiba designs to be announce at Cedia next fall.

It is entirely possible that another manufacturer could announce a lower priced player or a MSRP or MAP price drop could be announced for the HD A2, but I think that is unlikely as well.

To early for the price drops if the HD A2 and HD XA2 are selling like hotcakes. :)

Speaking of hotcakes... Saw a few of your posts drooling over the XA2.. :) The inclusion of the HQV processor is very impressive..

b2b

btw ... do Studio's and the like read threads like this? Because, seriously ... if Disney would start releasing titles on HD-DVD, we'd pretty much buy them all. We have a Disney Illness. I want Disney and Buena Vista titles too, but I am not willing to pay the $999 fixed cost to get a standalone Blu-ray player to play Bambi on yet. :eek:

Considering the PS3 but $599 + $25 is still more than $25. If the SD DVD upconversion of the HD XA2 is as good as it supposed to be with the Silicon Optix HQV Reon, I may wait until Blu-ray players are sold at my local Walgreens.

But if I could get Disney in HD DVD, Walt's grandchildren can count on me for a few hundred dollars in cold cash as those are movies I would by in a heartbeat.

I can get you a PS3 for $499 instead of $599 Kosty (they apparently have another version), so lemme know if that $100 difference helps sway you. ;)

I want Disney and Buena Vista titles too, but I am not willing to pay the $999 fixed cost to get a standalone Blu-ray player to play Bambi on yet. :eek:

Considering the PS3 but $599 + $25 is still more than $25. If the SD DVD upconversion of the HD XA2 is as good as it supposed to be with the Silicon Optix HQV Reon, I may wait until Blu-ray players are sold at my local Walgreens.

But if I could get Disney in HD DVD, Walt's grandchildren can count on me for a few hundred dollars in cold cash as those are movies I would by in a heartbeat.

Pretty much my take on it as well ... release them on DVD/HD-DVD Combo even ... that'd be even better ... I don't understand why Studio's (in either camp really) are choosing to basically ignore profit. Why not make $0.75 on both sides of the fence rather than be held to $1.00 on one side? Perhaps my mind is too simple. ;)

To early for the price drops if the HD A2 and HD XA2 are selling like hotcakes. :)I was surprised to see that the ranking for the A2 is all the way down at #625 on Amazon despite being shown as in stock every time I've checked in the past few days. That isn't all that much better than the Samsung that is down in the 800s.

--Darin

I have no idea if objective scratch information is available. 45 GB HD-DVD not in the spec, just like 100 GB and 200 GB BD not in the spec.

Not every movie needs more than 25 GB. More 50 GB titles announced all the time.

And don't forget important bandwidth differences:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8358387&&#post8358387

Wow, Thanks! If it's not in the spec, it's not likely to happen, and that's key.

What about being able to print on both sides of the disc? Can both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray handle that? I understood physical limitations on Blu-Ray due to how the disc was constructed? It's "fatter" or something?

It is entirely possible that another manufacturer could announce a lower priced playerRCA has announced one that lists for $500 and is pre-selling on Amazon for less.

Wow, Thanks! If it's not in the spec, it's not likely to happen, and that's key.

What about being able to print on both sides of the disc? Can both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray handle that? I understood physical limitations on Blu-Ray due to how the disc was constructed? It's "fatter" or something?

Here is a link that discusses some of this stuff.. Just remember a lot of it never has made it to production.

http://www.manifest-tech.com/media_dvd/dvd_hd_multi_layer.htm

b2b

Pretty much my take on it as well ... release them on DVD/HD-DVD Combo even ... that'd be even better ... I don't understand why Studio's (in either camp really) are choosing to basically ignore profit. Why not make $0.75 on both sides of the fence rather than be held to $1.00 on one side? Perhaps my mind is too simple. ;)My take is that some of the studios want to wait and see if one format will quit. If both formats survive, there is a chance that it will slow down the adoption of both Hi-Def formats or outright rejection by consumers. Besides, the first year revenues from these formats are nothing compared to the DVD sales. In other words, they can afford to wait.

If both formats survive forever, it puts burden on studios to release every single disc on both formats -- and two flows for every release (maybe, not for encoding, but everything down the line, including interactivity). For a short time it may not matter, but in the long term that would not be welcome, I think; it will/should be the last resort.

Finally, as a consumer, I think if both formats survive, none of the formats will be exploited to its fullest potential. This is just the beginning, I think. Looks like Warner has given up the hope of one format winning (Total HD). May be, by the end of this year there will be more studios giving up and we will be stuck with both formats. In my opinion, that will be unfortunate.

I don't know who will win; just my few cents. I still think Blu-ray will win, but not necessarily (and no longer) for the right reasons. I fully support Blu-ray (because there are many other factors, and I don't buy based on perception).
So, given that, what does HD DVD need to deliver to get you to flip?

Here is a link that discusses some of this stuff.. Just remember a lot of it never has made it to production.

http://www.manifest-tech.com/media_dvd/dvd_hd_multi_layer.htm

b2b

Thank you! Great Find! ;)

Thank you! Great Find! ;)

If you get tired of sitting around poking sharp sticks into your eyes, a suitable replacement is to download the BluRay white papers and read them instead.. :)

They can be found here..

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-13470/Section-13628/Index.html

b2b

Dear Insiders:

I wanted to write and explain how your behavior is influencing my format choice.

I first started reading AVS last summer. I was so impressed with the site that I decided to subscribe and become a paying member. I wanted to do this out of appreciation for the valuable resource that the hard working folks who run this site provide to all of us on the Internet.

I was especially impressed with the quality of information on AVS from industry insiders and other enthusiasts that were passionate about home theater. Although passions have been high, and things sometimes got rude, the great moderators always stepped in quickly to control things.

Before I first started reading AVS I thought Blu-Ray would dominate. Everyone knows the advantages that Blu-Ray had going for them. It seemed like a slam dunk to me. As I read AVS, my position shifted. First I became neutral on the two formats and decided I would buy a player for each format.

As time went on I became more and more of an HD-DVD supporter. I saw the reviews for the launch titles and launch players for both formats. I also saw the sort of support and service that HD-DVD customers were receiving in contrast to BD customers. I changed my HD-A2 order to an HD-XA2 order, but I was still committed to buying a PS3 for BD playback.

That all changed this morning.

I believe that a respected AVS insider was stopped from posting on AVS because a Blu-ray insider complained to his employer. Earlier today a Blu-Ray insider (I don't know if it's the same one or not) made additional ugly accusations against another prominent HD-DVD insider, that seemed to be a direct attack meant to intimidate or initiate reprisals and employer backlash.

Although we may bicker with each other, sometimes loudly over trivial issues, in most cases the moderators can control the situation. But in the case of direct public attacks on non-confidential insiders or direct complaints to employers that seem to be a direct attempt to intimidate and silence insiders, that crosses a line. It's especially bad when the people that have been doing this hide behind their own confidential status.

The fact is, that these actions have clearly been directed at HD-DVD insiders from the Blu-ray side. This has only served to make me even more of an HD-DVD supporter.

This forum is unique because of the contributions of passionate and dedicated people who speak freely and contribute a lot of their time to inform and educate others. A free speaking and honest posting often has to be read in context. For an industry professional to use an honestly intended posting here by a fellow AVS contributor as a weapon seems insulting to us all.

I had been planning to purchase a PS3 in the March or April time frame. I figured by then availability might have improved enough to get one. After today’s events I’ve decided that even buying a subsidized player is too much for me to stomach.

It’s just one story, but I’m sure I’m not the only one who feels this way. I hope that the BD insiders keep in mind that by silencing or trying to silence opposing views, they are alienating an audience that has influence over the buying decisions of their circle of friends, family and co-workers. They are also damaging AVS as a resource for all of us. One of my coworkers has been leaning toward Blu-Ray. After today’s events I’ve decided to lend him my brand new XA2 and four HD-DVD movies for a week to help swing him over as well. Another customer is on the way Toshiba.

I definitely echo some of your comments with regards to how some Microsoft insiders get attacked (not to mention the pseudo-threat from paidgeek to CJPlay).

I do however appreciate Penton-Man's efforts to get CJPlay to post again though.

Dear Insiders:
<-snip->


I think some folks are taking the piddling diatribes here on AVS a bit too serious... :confused:

b2b

So, given that, what does HD DVD need to deliver to get you to flip?I know you didn't ask me this but if HD DVD wants to win here are two things that I think would help:

1. Add triple layer HD DVD to the specs if it is still possible. After all King Kong shipped with no DVD supplements or lossless audio track so saying that 30 GB is enough for all movies does not sound reasonable. Also if triple layer HD DVD is really as easy to do as it was claimed there is no good reason for it not to be added to the HD DVD specs.

2. Show that there is major CE support behind HD DVD. Maybe that will actually happen at CES but so far it is considered big news when a company like LG announces a universal player. What would be even bigger news is actually having a major CE company other than Toshiba making stand alone HD DVD players.


The fact is, that these actions have clearly been directed at HD-DVD insiders from the Blu-ray side. This has only served to make me even more of an HD-DVD supporter.When did CJPlay go from being a video compressionist to being a HD DVD insider? Also personally I remember several HD DVD insiders posting here for over two years that never had a bit of a problem bashing Blu-ray. Heck, last I checked they still do so.


For an industry professional to use an honestly intended posting here by a fellow AVS contributor as a weapon seems insulting to us all.To be blunt that is exaggeration. When a video compressionist calls an encoding done by a major studio crap is it really a suprise that someone who works for that studio takes offense at that? Do you really think that if the studio had been Warner or Universal that the reaction would have somehow been different? Also maybe I am being too logical about this but technically it was his employer that supposedly made him stop posting on the forum.


I had been planning to purchase a PS3 in the March or April time frame. I figured by then availability might have improved enough to get one. After today’s events I’ve decided that even buying a subsidized player is too much for me to stomach.No offense but you are falling into the trap of tribal instincts. Something that sadly enough is becoming far to apparent in this format war.

IWhen did CJPlay go from being a video compressionist to being a HD DVD insider?
What do you mean by this? Cjplay works for the wholly owned subsidiary of Warner producing HD DVDs/BDs. That subsidiary is the organization that gave life to original DVD format. If he is not an insider working for that org, what are your qualifications for it then?

So, given that, what does HD DVD need to deliver to get you to flip?Increase the bandwidth. I still feel that is a weakness which in the hands of careless (or pressed by schedules) operators may result in loss of quality, or not allow them to include lossless audio in such cases. I know you, as a compressionist believe this is not a limitation (I have read all your posts), but this is what I think. [Of course increasing bandwidth may or may not require increasing capacity]

Having said that, I wouldn't mind if HD-DVD wins. It has already proven that quality can be delivered on 30GB discs with 30Mbps limit (I just don't know about sustaining it though! Call me skeptic). I just think that Blu-ray is better (see above), so given a choice, I will continue with Blu-ray.

I do have deep respect for entire HD-DVD execution so far. Especially amazing progress of VC-1. It definitely has changed a lot of things. If Blu-ray didn't exist, I would have settled* for HD-DVD happily because of that.


* I use 'settle' with highest regard. It is all relative. :)


By the way, some time this year I will buy a PC HD-DVD drive. Does that count as flipping? Then you don't need to do anything! :)

I know you didn't ask me this but if HD DVD wants to win here are two things that I think would help:
All feedback is always welcome.

1. Add triple layer HD DVD to the specs if it is still possible. After all King Kong shipped with no DVD supplements or lossless audio track so saying that 30 GB is enough for all movies does not sound reasonable. Also if triple layer HD DVD is really as easy to do as it was claimed there is no good reason for it not to be added to the HD DVD specs.
Well, can I restate that in terms of "be able to provide more extras and audio per disc?" Does it really matter if it's done through more efficient encoding and authoring or with more layers? I guess I want to focus on what needs to happen from the consumer perspective, not the spec perspective.

2. Show that there is major CE support behind HD DVD. Maybe that will actually happen at CES but so far it is considered big news when a company like LG announces a universal player. What would be even bigger news is actually having a major CE company other than Toshiba making stand alone HD DVD players.
Heard loud and clear!

Increase the bandwidth. I still feel that is a weakness which in the hands of careless (or pressed by schedules) operators may result in loss of quality, or not allow them to include lossless audio in such cases. I know you, as a compressionist believe this is not a limitation (I have read all your posts), but this is what I think. [Of course increasing bandwidth may or may not require increasing capacity]
Again, I'd like to focus more on what you want to see in title and players. The spec only matters in that it's the enviornment we work in to deliver the above. Consumers shouldn't have to give a whit about specs, just about whether what they buy delivers the experience they want, at the right price.

I should also note that bandwidth needed for a given PQ is going down pretty regularly, and we've got lots of things going on to continue to push it down. So we're already delivering more effective bandwidth every few months.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind if HD-DVD wins. It has already proven that quality can be delivered on 30GB discs with 30Mbps limit (I just don't know about sustaining it though! Call me skeptic). I just think that Blu-ray is better (see above), so given a choice, I will continue with Blu-ray.
It sounds like you don't have any issues with any real titles, so I guess we'll keep on getting great discs released until we convince you :).

So, describe a title that would statisfy your concerns about HD DVD!

I do have deep respect for entire HD-DVD execution so far. Especially amazing progress of VC-1. It definitely has changed a lot of things. If Blu-ray didn't exist, I would have settled* for HD-DVD happily because of that.
I hope we'll prove to you that you're not settling soon enough...

* I use 'settle' with highest regard. It is all relative. :)
Of course.

Paper specs can be so seductive, but we'll just keep on delivering the better experience until the message gets across :).

I guess you are addressing all Blu-ray supporters through me! :)
Again, I'd like to focus more on what you want to see in title and players. The spec only matters in that it's the enviornment we work in to deliver the above. Consumers shouldn't have to give a whit about specs, just about whether what they buy delivers the experience they want, at the right price.

I should also note that bandwidth needed for a given PQ is going down pretty regularly, and we've got lots of things going on to continue to push it down. So we're already delivering more effective bandwidth every few months.That reminds me. Is there any news on DynaMux front? Anything promising? If that combined with VC-1 improvements can guarantee that no studio will have to face a decision to chop a feature (like lossless audio) to maintain video quality, then I wouldn't be concerned. Apart from that, why is it that VC-1 requires more tweaking to achieve low bit-rates? At the moment, Blu-ray on BD50 has the advantage of increasing bandwidth if quality target is not achieved instead of extensive tweaking; they have that luxury. We know that studios are not going to spend this much time on all titles. I would say this is the biggest concern for me. If you still say that this is not a concern, then I may be inclined to take your word for it. You guys have earned it. :)


Paper specs can be so seductive, but we'll just keep on delivering the better experience until the message gets across :).What can I say? Keep up the good work!

And, yes, from the perspective of general public, as opposed to my own concerns, more CE support is required as Richard mentioned. If that happens, I am sure the studio support will follow.

Only reason to flip is if the other format is getting 100% software support and the format you've supported is inevitably going to lose, going to get less than 50% support and heading south.

The last 2 or 3 times I've went out, I ended up with one of each. The last time was Scary Movie 4 and Tears of the Sun. Both worked out great. I was afraid Scary Movie 4 wasn't going to be that funny (or stuck to the commercials), but I really enjoyed it. Hopefully 1-3 come out on HD-DVD, as well, since I only have 1 on SD-DVD and would be willing to duplicate it if they came out the same PQ and AQ as 4. Tears of the Sun, of course, is regularly mentioned as a very high quality tier title for BD and it's not without justification. Much better movie than I thought it would be, as well.

I still hope for a quieter 360 (65nm?) with integrated HD-DVD drive and HDMI output to put next to my PS3, but the current one works great!

Now I wish the BD side would start bringing out some of their heavy hitter titles (Spiderman, Aliens, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, etc).

One thing I've noted with concern is the apparent disparity in BD to HD-DVD currently announced titles for January and beyond. Something on the order 62 to 23 in BD's favor, though I'm sure we might see some movement and announcements at CES. Has anyone accounted for this yet?

I think some folks are taking the piddling diatribes here on AVS a bit too serious... :confused:

b2b I don't think you saw the posts that got deleted.

They crossed over the line and had no place here.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9361402&&#post9361402

Originally Posted by 2Channel
The fact is, that these actions have clearly been directed at HD-DVD insiders from the Blu-ray side. This has only served to make me even more of an HD-DVD supporter. When did CJPlay go from being a video compressionist to being a HD DVD insider? Also personally I remember several HD DVD insiders posting here for over two years that never had a bit of a problem bashing Blu-ray. Heck, last I checked they still do soOriginally Posted by 2Channel
For an industry professional to use an honestly intended posting here by a fellow AVS contributor as a weapon seems insulting to us all.To be blunt that is exaggeration. When a video compressionist calls an encoding done by a major studio crap is it really a suprise that someone who works for that studio takes offense at that? Do you really think that if the studio had been Warner or Universal that the reaction would have somehow been different? Also maybe I am being too logical about this but technically it was his employer that supposedly made him stop posting on the forum. You are assuming that these comments entirely refer to cjplay. There were other direct attacks today that did not involve him. They did refer to a HD DVD insider. They were direct personal attacks intended to harm. They were deleted.

2channel did not entirely refer to the cjplay restriction on posting incident as you are assuming.

There were some posts on the insider thread this afternoon that were deleted for good reason.No offense but you are falling into the trap of tribal instincts. Something that sadly enough is becoming far to apparent in this format war. I agree that not considering a format because of the possible unprofessional or vindictive behavior of any single individual or small group of individual is harsh. But I dare say, it doesn't help.

BTW I am glad that all the insiders here post at AVS.

I was quite disturbed by the events today, and hope I don't see them again.

I did. BD-J is what they are based on remember? There is no BD-Live1.0, so where do you think BD-Video 2.0 came from. It was BD-J 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0 - these profiles were given the names BD-Video and BD-Live. Don't believe me? Look it upThere is not and never has been a BD-J 1.1 or 2.0. Your "facts" are pure fiction.
That's why writing a story such as the one I put online yesterday almost feels like an exposee.More like a telenovela. Pure fiction.

PiP is available on all Blu-ray players (see The Descent), though not necessarily using the API's provided by BD-Video 1.1.If you would please clarify:

All players? (you specifically spell some out, and omit others later in this thread)Yes. The Descent's PiP implementation doesn't rely upon BD-Video 1.1. My understanding is that it doesn't work on the Sony player due to issues unrelated to PiP (and likely to be corrected via firmware upgrade).
You did not say "mandated" but "available"... is that indication that there's no guarantee that this would necessarily be the case with all machines released prior to 6/07?Titles using the method used by The Descent should work on all players.
What does using non-BD-Video 1.1 API's to access these features mean for these titles wherein the players DO support the BD-V 1.1 API's?Nothing. Titles using the method used by The Descent will work just fine on BD-Video 1.0, 1.1, or BD-Live players.
Are there any guarantees that said players will be upgradable to the BD-V 1.1 spec?Not unless/until a manufacturer makes such a claim.
Should one expect other titles using non-BD-V 1.1 PiP API's?That's up to the studios, but it's nice to have the option.

I suspect he is also happy, because BD insiders like Talk said this was not possible, too complicated and difficult.Please show where I said it was not possible. I said it would be complex, expensive, and wasn't a good solution. I stand by that opinion. The proof will be in LG's pricing, delivery, and more importantly, the quality of the resulting product.

As for sales rate of the two consoles, according to the latest numbers from nexgenwars and vgcharts, Xbox360 continues to outsell the PS3. This will continue at least until the PS3 blue laser supply issues are resolved..I disagree. The PS3 has been supply-constrained; there is still substantial demand in the market, and Sony may well be able to sell everything they can produce in the coming quarters (perhaps 1M units/month, since it appears they may have ended up near that sort of production rate by the end of December). The Xbox 360 is not supply-constrained, and with the holidays over we can expect sales to fall dramatically, at least until next holiday season.

Talkstr8t,

I believe you have been misinformed about the shortage situation with consoles. There is no supply problem with the PS3 in either Japan or US at the moment (there was before Christmas though).

It seems the only consoles suffering severe shortages right now are the Nintendo DS and Nintendo Wii (which doesn't even offer HD of any kind, unfortunately).

Whoops, typo! :o All fixed now.Oh, yes, because it's so easy to accidentally hit the "7" key when pressing the "9" key three times. Surely you weren't trying to make the HD-XA2 look more compelling by "accidentally" suggesting a retail price $200 below reality...

I believe you have been misinformed about the shortage situation with consoles. There is no supply problem with the PS3 in either Japan or US at the moment (there was before Christmas though).There are many posts here and elsewhere of people who have not found them available at their local Best Buy, Target, Circuit City, Walmart, or the like. Yes, supply is clearly better and if you're willing to keep closetabs on the product trackers and get up early you can do it now, but they certainly aren't in stock at most outlets.

More importantly, 2Channel was comparing seasonal sales of the consoles. Even though supply of the PS3 has gotten somewhat better, we don't know if that's because demand is off or because production is up, and total units sold for the season were clearly impacted by lack of supply. Therefore, to try to draw conclusions about the relative rate of sales between the PS3 and Xbox 360 over the next few quarters based on the last six weeks simply isn't feasible.

ah ok, that seems to conflict the the news stories about PS3s being readily available since after Christmas, but you can't always trust news organizations to do good reporting anyway...

Please show where I said it was not possible. I said it would be complex, expensive, and wasn't a good solution. I stand by that opinion. The proof will be in LG's pricing, delivery, and more importantly, the quality of the resulting product. Kinda like science fiction, you know like economical dual layer 50GB Blu-ray discs? :p

complex, expensive, and wasn't a good solution.... proof will be in ... pricing, delivery, and more importantly, the quality of the resulting product...- couldn't resist... ;)

Kinda like science fiction, you know like economical dual layer 50GB Blu-ray discs? :p

Ouch. :)

But making a HD30/BD50 DS disc will probably always be more expensive that making an HD30 and a BD50 separately and putting them both in a single case, just as a DVD18 is more expensive than 2 DVD9's.

Of course, Warner wouldn't want to release a 2-disc solution lest the copy in the unneeded format be resold.

However, there is precedent for this... and from the most recent format war no less. The remastered UK editions of Depeche Mode classic albums include a hybrid SACD and a DVD-Audio of the album.

Yeah, I agree, the Warner hybrid monster disc has got to be more expensive than a BD25 let alone a BD50 or a HD DVD 30 because it has mutant features of both.


I can't see how that would be economical at least in the short term with small volumes. In any case thats a big studio solution, minor second tier content providers could never afford it.

DVD spins bigger coin (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6404388.html)

DVD and VHS sales and rentals: $23.6 billion

DVD sales: $14.90 billion (B&M), $15.65 billion (B&M plus online)
Overall sales (including VHS and DVD): $15.91 billion.

DVD rentals: $7.39 billion

Revenue from movie downloads and high-def disc sales both represented less than 1 percent of 2006 DVD revenue. So some back-of-the-envelope calculation yields about $200 million in hidef disc sales.

There are many posts here and elsewhere of people who have not found them available at their local Best Buy, Target, Circuit City, Walmart, or the like. Yes, supply is clearly better and if you're willing to keep closetabs on the product trackers and get up early you can do it now, but they certainly aren't in stock at most outlets.

More importantly, 2Channel was comparing seasonal sales of the consoles. Even though supply of the PS3 has gotten somewhat better, we don't know if that's because demand is off or because production is up, and total units sold for the season were clearly impacted by lack of supply. Therefore, to try to draw conclusions about the relative rate of sales between the PS3 and Xbox 360 over the next few quarters based on the last six weeks simply isn't feasible.


You can find multiple PS3's in just about every major retailer in Charleston, South Carolina this week. And As I travel to NC and Georgia for work, I can also witness that there are available untis in the major retailers in those areas also this week. So Honestly the PS3 can probably easily be had in most areas by just walking into a couple of stores.

Does the analogy of behavior while dating vs behavior while married also not apply because it doesn't deal with time to encode? :)

As I said:
Quality on satellite has dropped because they had to make a choice and they made it in the direction of lower quality. Yes, there is an underlying reason for that which is bandwidth in their case, but it goes to the fundamental thing about different behavior at different times depending on what is important. Early adopters can feel like they will always be the most important if they are given highest priority early on, but that seldom holds.
Exactly. Some DVDs get more attention and it tends to have a correlation with how many they will sell (more popular titles get more time and money in general). We can look at the DVD market and get a better idea of what they will do with HD in the long run than just looking at the early phase of the HD market where there was a big incentive to spend more money. Of course encoders should get better as I said and hopefully offset reduced schedules, but the question was why it should matter to people how long these things have taken and I think we've gone over why. If things like "Batman Begins" took 2 days to get looking like it did with the bandwidth ceiling it had then that would be quite a bit different than taking weeks.

--Darin

the satellite analogy doesn't work at all IMO...but for those that might buy into it it would certainly scare the crap out of them.

the dating analogy is simply the old 'honeymoon is over' recast to reflect people not getting married as much :)

the honeymoon period applies across the board and i personally would worry more about where the quality was when the honeymoon started to have some sense of how much worse it can get when it starts to devolve.

but that's just me ;)

Ben, you message box is full

Revenue from movie downloads and high-def disc sales both represented less than 1 percent of 2006 DVD revenue. So some back-of-the-envelope calculation yields about $200 million in hidef disc sales. That is enough to get peoples attention, and if most of that to date is HD DVD???

What was DVD's software sales in its first year(s)?

Here is the way I would put it. It is a little bit like if we go back to the early days of HD with DIRECTV and somebody asking why it matters whether DIRECTV has enough bandwidth with their satellites to give us more HD channels without degrading them. Early on they weren't doing the degradation of both bandwidth and resolution that they are doing now. This case is a little different, but the idea where the provider acts one way during the early adopter phase and a different way when things get closer to mass market has similarities. If we want to know how the studios act with more mature products we need to look at the DVD market, not the HD DVD or Blu-ray markets. Much like if you could look at how somebody acts during marriage that should be more important to whether you want to marry them than how they act during the dating period.

In this case, at least some studios have been going way above and beyond as far as spending time and money to make sure the encodes were the best. And this makes some sense economically for people that want HD to take off, especially when they want one side to win and are trying to help it. But things are unlikely to stay that way. Looking at the DVD market we should be able to see that some titles get the green light to have lots of time put into making them their best, but most titles don't get allocated all that much time at all. And whether one format or the other wins, that is most likely going to be the case if these things go more mainstream. I have little doubt that there will be plenty of titles where the encoding people are given a couple of days max in the future, even if it doesn't look like this will be enough time to get maximum quality. The encoders should improve, so hopefully they can minimize the impact of shorter schedules for encoding people.

I would expect some people on this site who have followed what has happened with HD on satellites and been frustrated by it to make the connection with how priorities can change as things become more mass market.

--Darin

However given that, at least for VC-1, this is a software encoder running on PC farms, and not dedicated hardware:

- The encode-time for titles is likely to fall significanlty faster than previous encode environements (Moore's law & all)

- Improvements in the encoder will be much more easily adopted, likely allowing workflow process improvements to happen often

The "2 week" average for a title encode won't last for long.

I doubt that we are going to see a general decrease in quality accross the board. I suspect it's going to be individual studio "philosophy" and the title "profile" that determines the overall effort.

So, given that, what does HD DVD need to deliver to get you to flip?
I would like HD DVD to move all their content over to the BD storage medium. If iHD or all that software is that great, then fine, lets use the storage media with the biggest space, fastest throughput (and more expansion headroom). I'd like the HD DVD authoring tools to be able to read and write on BD-R or BD-RE storage. On PCs, this should be trivial, CE devices will take longer but not difficult.

Or, I'd also like the HD-DVD optical device to deliver their 30GB DL (or better 60GB QL) HD DVD-R media and burners to the market by mar '07 (announce in CES with firm date). HD DVD-RW would be preferable.

If that happens, I'll buy warner and paramount in HD-DVD instead of BD and only buy sony/fox/disney/lionsgate exclusives in BD until they also switch.

There is not and never has been a BD-J 1.1 or 2.0. Your "facts" are pure fiction.
More like a telenovela. Pure fiction.

i'm guessing that rdj is referring to the v1.x and v2.x of bd-ro part 3 avbs spec wherein bd-j has its own 'section' (3-2) and is nearly 400 pages all by itself, almost bigger by itself than the rest of the avbs 3-1...

From what I just saw it looks as if Warner is in the midst of releasing a combo format HD DVD. Wow!

Movies in both formats? Why would a film studio choose one over the other for very long of a time period? BluRay may flop all together if this takes off then again HD DVD could as well for reasons not really known to myself as of yet

I think that Bluray needs to be the winner due to all that it has cost to build to survive and even have the chance to claim the new high definition dvd format.

What do you guys think? :cool:

Yes. The Descent's PiP implementation doesn't rely upon BD-Video 1.1. My understanding is that it doesn't work on the Sony player due to issues unrelated to PiP (and likely to be corrected via firmware upgrade).
Titles using the method used by The Descent should work on all players.
Nothing. Titles using the method used by The Descent will work just fine on BD-Video 1.0, 1.1, or BD-Live players.
Not unless/until a manufacturer makes such a claim.
That's up to the studios, but it's nice to have the option.

Thanks Talk.

Why implement PiP this way rather than "properly" according to the spec?

I would like HD DVD to move all their content over to the BD storage medium.So basically, you're saying: "I'd buy HD DVD if it weren't HD DVD. If HD DVD were Blu-ray, I'd buy HD DVD!"

So basically, you're saying: "I'd buy HD DVD if it weren't HD DVD. If HD DVD were Blu-ray, I'd buy HD DVD!"
No, I consider the software and storage to be separate.

If VC-1 and EVO files in HVVIDEO_TS are preferred for movie delivery, then it works whether it lives on a HD DVD or a HardDisk or any other optical storage. Heck, we know it works on DVD/R. It is not a stretch to just consolidate on one physical medium and provide different software on the same medium.

Yeah, I agree, the Warner hybrid monster disc has got to be more expensive than a BD25 let alone a BD50 or a HD DVD 30 because it has mutant features of both.


I can't see how that would be economical at least in the short term with small volumes. In any case thats a big studio solution, minor second tier content providers could never afford it.

The HD-DVD combo discs are expensive too with their cost being 2.5 times that of DVD (with consumers picking up the tab with the $5 surcharge). As much as the fans of HD-DVD want everyone to think that the replication costs are big deal to producing these discs, the existance of the "combos" and the announced WB hybrid (Frankendisc ? :) ) seem to go counter to that notion.

b2b

The HD-DVD combo discs are expensive too with their cost being 2.5 times that of DVD (with consumers picking up the tab with the $5 surcharge). As much as the fans of HD-DVD want everyone to think that the replication costs are big deal to producing these discs, the existance of the "combos" and the announced WB hybrid (Frankendisc ? :) ) seem to go counter to that notion.

b2b MAybe so, but there are few combo discs in the wild, and the BD side of this THD "Frankendisc" (BTW love the term) would be the expensive one.

All the expense and problem of Blu-ray production along with a bonus free HD DVD side, what a deal!

The HD-DVD combo discs are expensive too with their cost being 2.5 times that of DVD (with consumers picking up the tab with the $5 surcharge). As much as the fans of HD-DVD want everyone to think that the replication costs are big deal to producing these discs, the existance of the "combos" and the announced WB hybrid (Frankendisc ? :) ) seem to go counter to that notion.

b2b

Perhaps you havent noticed but most HD DVD surporters dont like the current combo disks and/or there prices

Yes. The Descent's PiP implementation doesn't rely upon BD-Video 1.1. My understanding is that it doesn't work on the Sony player due to issues unrelated to PiP (and likely to be corrected via firmware upgrade).
Titles using the method used by The Descent should work on all players.
Nothing. Titles using the method used by The Descent will work just fine on BD-Video 1.0, 1.1, or BD-Live players.
Not unless/until a manufacturer makes such a claim.
That's up to the studios, but it's nice to have the option.

could you please elaborate on this? is it simply encoded using branching with one branch having the pip content overlaid/burned onto the main content and the other branch without pseudo-pip?

Perhaps you havent noticed but most HD DVD surporters dont like the current combo disks and/or there prices

Then you had better be prepared for more HD-DVD discs to hate... ;)
Hybrid HD discs, said Mueller, will certainly be an important factor, at least in the
short term – presumably until the format war shakes down one way or another.
“This year about 8-12% of all HD discs, six titles so far, have been of this format,
and have been limited by the amount of manufacturing capacity – virtually all discs
would be of this format right now if we had the capacity to do so.”The discs
produced to date were of the HD-15/DVD-9 format, with HD-30/DVD-9 titles due to
be available soon after. For 2007,Mueller projected that 15-20% of discs will be hybrids
– again, possibly more as a result of manufacturing capacity than anything else, and
that by 2008 it could be based on the cost of manufacture and the eventual outcome
of BD versus HD.

b2b

MAybe so, but there are few combo discs in the wild, and the BD side of this THD "Frankendisc" (BTW love the term) would be the expensive one.

All the expense and problem of Blu-ray production along with a bonus free HD DVD side, what a deal!

I thought it was apropos too.. "Jeff®" on the Blu-Ray forum coined the phrase.. :)

b2b

Grubert just broke the news on the news thread that a second xbox 360 is a coming and it has hdmi...

Grubert just broke the news on the news thread that a second xbox 360 is a coming and it has hdmi...

I'm sure that's going to make the first 10 million Xb360 owners jump for joy.. ;) Next question, are they going to do a "universal" addon upgrade using a LG drive ?? :)

b2b

I'm sure that's going to make the first 10 million Xb360 owners jump for joy.. ;) Next question, are they going to do a "universal" addon upgrade using a LG drive ?? :)

b2b

how many versions of the ps2 did we end up with? it is par for the course, unfortunately...

universal addon, now why would they want an "ugly dongle" ;)

MAybe so, but there are few combo discs in the wild, and the BD side of this THD "Frankendisc" (BTW love the term) would be the expensive one.

All the expense and problem of Blu-ray production along with a bonus free HD DVD side, what a deal!

That begs another question. If supposedly Sony DADC is the only place that can create BD discs, then who is going to mfg the "Total HD" discs for Warner ?? What about the BD ROM-mark and other BD specific requirements ??

b2b

I'm sure that's going to make the first 10 million Xb360 owners jump for joy.. ;) Next question, are they going to do a "universal" addon upgrade using a LG drive ?? :)

b2b
Yeah, the folks who bought the 1920 Ford are pissed, too. :p

C'mon, don't we all have upgrade almost everything every couple of years? :rolleyes:

Err not every couple. This is analogus the folks who bought the 1920 Ford being pissed that the Ford unexpectedly announced the new 1921 Ford in June 1920. The people who bought it in Novmber 1919 shouldn't be too pissed, but the people buying it in April & May 1920 are gonna be downright surly.

I'm not one of them, though, and this new 360 is something I've wanted for awhile. Just hope it has an internal HD-DVD drive! Probably see if I can unload this 360 without too much of a loss and get the new one. I'll keep the HD-DVD add on for my PC, unless the new one doesn't include an internal HD-DVD drive either.

Hey that could be a good way for MS to still offer 2 SKU's. core pack with new 65nm, existing 20GB HD and DVD drive. premium with new 65nm, new 120GB, and HD-DVD drive. That thing would have to be PS3 priced, though, but I like it!

This may be a repost, but this sounds like good news.
An HD and Blue Ray Combo player:
Blue Ray HD Combo Player by LG (http://www.twice.com/article/CA6404176.html)

I guess you are addressing all Blu-ray supporters through me! :)
We're going to win, even if we have to earn it one enthusiast at a time :).

That reminds me. Is there any news on DynaMux front? Anything promising? If that combined with VC-1 improvements can guarantee that no studio will have to face a decision to chop a feature (like lossless audio) to maintain video quality, then I wouldn't be concerned. Apart from that, why is it that VC-1 requires more tweaking to achieve low bit-rates? At the moment, Blu-ray on BD50 has the advantage of increasing bandwidth if quality target is not achieved instead of extensive tweaking; they have that luxury. We know that studios are not going to spend this much time on all titles. I would say this is the biggest concern for me. If you still say that this is not a concern, then I may be inclined to take your word for it. You guys have earned it. :)
Nothing you're seeing in titles yet uses statmux. But yes, there's promising stuff we're looking at that'll make dyanmux/statmux even more useful than I'd originally anticipated. But bear in mind that statmux isn't a silver bullet or something, it's just another arrow we'll eventually be putting in our quiver. We've got plenty of other things we're working that are providing aggragate improvements in ABR and PBR, a well as encoding speed and usability. We're doing a lot to both improve what can be done for the A-list titles that get a lot of labor, and the long-tail content where there isn't time for much per-segment tweaking.

Also, PIP + lossless audio is already posisble in many cases - don't assume that a title doesn't use lossless audio just because of PBR concerns. One great advantage of HD DVD is that we have mandatory advanced codecs, so we're not stuck between the options of AC-3 @ 640 Kbps or full PCM. DD+ @ 1.5 Mbps provides incredible audio quality, and I'm not convinced that there really is a significant improvement from that to full lossless.

We'll certainly be able to support lossless + PIP well before most BD players support PIP at all :).

What can I say? Keep up the good work!
Thanks! On of the my favorite things about working for Microsoft has been the huge emphasis on delivering great A/V quality.

And, yes, from the perspective of general public, as opposed to my own concerns, more CE support is required as Richard mentioned. If that happens, I am sure the studio support will follow.
Again, heard loud and clear. You'll forgive me if I leave it at that...

Yeah, I agree, the Warner hybrid monster disc has got to be more expensive than a BD25 let alone a BD50 or a HD DVD 30 because it has mutant features of both.


I can't see how that would be economical at least in the short term with small volumes. In any case thats a big studio solution, minor second tier content providers could never afford it.

But is Total HD a good thing, or a bad thing, for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray? Who benefits more from it? That puts more releases on Blu-Ray and should generate more player sales which should, in term, cut down on HD-DVD support (and make it less likely for BR Studios to go neutral).

Or am I thinking about it backwards? I guess it can be spun either way. :confused:

We're going to win, even if we have to earn it one enthusiast at a time :).


Nothing you're seeing in titles yet uses statmux. But yes, there's promising stuff we're looking at that'll make dyanmux/statmux even more useful than I'd originally anticipated.

Utto. Don't tell AnthonyP that! ;)

But bear in mind that statmux isn't a silver bullet or something, it's just another arrow we'll eventually be putting in our quiver.

And I'll quote this part before he does, just to short circuit any arguments. remember: my premise is that will be useful for something, like perhaps including another audio track at 640Kbps, or some IME...

But is Total HD a good thing, or a bad thing, for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray? Who benefits more from it? That puts more releases on Blu-Ray
How does that (Total HD discs) put more releases on Blu-ray? unless your confusing the LG player with Total HD.

could you please elaborate on this? is it simply encoded using branching with one branch having the pip content overlaid/burned onto the main content and the other branch without pseudo-pip?

This is an EXCELLENT question, given that amillians just asked (in the Insiders thread), if simply reading a single video stream element from the mux really qualifies as PiP.

If this is true, then:

- Shame, shame, Talk. :rolleyes:

- Why does the Sony player need a firmware upgrade when the feature isn't even using an advanced profile feature? Could the BD-J layer have been broken and/or incomplete?

Again, heard loud and clear. You'll forgive me if I leave it at that...
It would definitely be out of character for me to interpret that as meaning that there will be some nice CE announcements at CES.... :)

Sounds like some new CE announcements are possible. Also, if they release a new 360 with HDMI I will buy it ASAP. I love the 360 and admit I am on a Microsoft high, but that said I do love my new Apple laptop (not to get off topic).

Great job with the info guys!

Also, if they release a new 360 with HDMI I will buy it ASAP.
I'm in for some of that as well. I had been holding out for something compelling, and this would be it. The PS3 almost had me, but if this is ready soon I'm on board.

Perhaps you havent noticed but most HD DVD surporters dont like the current combo disks and/or there prices

I dunno ... I like them ... especially considering I've been able to pick them up for around $22.00 ... for the few extra dollars, I can watch in every player in my house and/or lend it to someone. Plus, if HD-DVD goes by the wayside, I'm still good on the SD side. Just seems more flexibility for the extra few bucks. :confused:

Grubert just broke the news on the news thread that a second xbox 360 is a coming and it has hdmi...

Oh boy ... I hope this is fake ... :(

After 10 million in circulation, they're going to add a new SKU? Unless it comes with a price drop of the originals, that doesn't make a lot of sense. :(

How does that (Total HD discs) put more releases on Blu-ray? unless your confusing the LG player with Total HD.

Perhaps I have my studio support mixed up? I thought Warner was HD-DVD only.

Edit: Yup, I made a mistake, Warner is already Neutral. Sorry.

Oh boy ... I hope this is fake ... :(

After 10 million in circulation, they're going to add a new SKU? Unless it comes with a price drop of the originals, that doesn't make a lot of sense. :(

just buy another one...that would make 20 million in circulation :)

This is an EXCELLENT question, given that amillians just asked (in the Insiders thread), if simply reading a single video stream element from the mux really qualifies as PiP.Reflecting on it, it's actually pretty clever and could help address some MC usability issues. OTOH, if there is no difference in the user experience, why care how it is implemented?

Why does the Sony player need a firmware upgrade when the feature isn't even using an advanced profile feature? Could the BD-J layer have been broken and/or incomplete?I already told you "no" earlier, didn't you like that answer? :)

just buy another one...that would make 20 million in circulation :)

:lol: ... I guess it worked for PS2 ... if Microsoft would just install faulty lasers in them so they fail to read discs after 18 months or so ... they could easily sell 100 Million this generation. :p

btw, re rdjam's $799 pricing for the XA2, maybe he shops at J&R

http://www.pricescan.com/electronics/items/item528099.asp

Man, didja all make some New Year's resolutions, or what? ;)

The recent air of civility by the posters is as welcome by me (and, I hope, others) as it is unexpected. :eek:

Oh, yes, because it's so easy to accidentally hit the "7" key when pressing the "9" key three times. Surely you weren't trying to make the HD-XA2 look more compelling by "accidentally" suggesting a retail price $200 below reality...

Well not technically a typo, a lot of people incorrectly refer to any inadvertant mistake or mispellings as typos. Yuur response seems unnecessarily caustic for him putting up the Street Price instead of the MSRP and calling it a typo.

BTW: "yuur" is actually a typo.

btw, re rdjam's $799 pricing for the XA2, maybe he shops at J&R

http://www.pricescan.com/electronics/items/item528099.asp

I saw one posting claiming that the wholesale for the XA2 would be in the high $500 range. (Sorry no links, I didn't bookmark) So with J&R already doing $799, a street of $599 is not out of the question at some point.

b2b

Grubert just broke the news on the news thread that a second xbox 360 is a coming and it has hdmi...
When is this hdmi 360 coming? It's too late for me, but a few friends picked up game bundles before xmas and they would return them if they don't have to wait.

i noticed this morning after downloading a number of hd trailers onto the ps3 that the trailers were encoded using avc...

2)why were some encoded as both 720p and 1080p? (i downloaded the 1080 of course)



I can answer this one. A 1080p download would offer no increased PQ to the viewer on a 720p monitor (probably the majority of HD sets). Why force the user to download 2x the bits if they can't see them?


Talk,

I'm curious on this point ... if the 'majority of HD sets' are 720p, and the PS3 doesn't have the ability to scale BR output at 720p (only 1080i and 1080p at this time), then wouldn't the weight placed on the amount of PS3's in the market place as a BR player be slightly less? As I understand it, the 720p-only sets will be given BR output in 480p? Or is the assumption that most of those 720p monitors, while not supporting 1080p, do support 1080i? :confused:

When is this hdmi 360 coming? It's too late for me, but a few friends picked up game bundles before xmas and they would return them if they don't have to wait.

the story on engadget which purportedly came from an MS insider stated "soon" lol

otherwise, have no clue!

Reflecting on it, it's actually pretty clever and could help address some MC usability issues. OTOH, if there is no difference in the user experience, why care how it is implemented?It goes to the question of whether more space and/or bandwidth are an advantage, given that things like this can more than kill the advantage there. Just like I care about how HD DVD will handle seamless branching even if they haven't done it yet. Just because they can do PiP on a certain title in a non-standard way without affecting the user experience it doesn't mean they will also be able to do it that way with other titles without affecting the user experience. I would consider using BD50s with a PiP scheme that duplicates the video streams completely to be a waste of the extra space compared to a system where the players have second video decoders. Using seamless branching might not be as bad, but there can be bandwidth ceiling issues there.

--Darin

Why implement PiP this way rather than "properly" according to the spec?As Keith said, what's the difference how it's implemented if the end-user experience is the same? In essence they included two copies of the movie, one with and one without PiP. 50GB of storage allows the studios flexibility such as this. A short-sighted comment might say "this is useless, HD-DVD mandates PiP support", to which one possible response would be "using this technique could allow for far greater flexibility, such as multiple PiP windows, irregularly shaped overlay video, audio commentary provided via the primary audio stream (and hence available even if decoding is taking place in the receiver, not the player), etc.".

- Talk

I'm curious on this point ... if the 'majority of HD sets' are 720p, and the PS3 doesn't have the ability to scale BR output at 720p (only 1080i and 1080p at this time), then wouldn't the weight placed on the amount of PS3's in the market place as a BR player be slightly less? As I understand it, the 720p-only sets will be given BR output in 480p?Only if they don't accept 1080i input. To my knowledge all HDTV's on the market today, and the vast majority sold in the last few years, accept 1080 input regardless of their native output format. I believe only some of the first generation HDTV's (which clearly represent a small and ever-shrinking minority of HD households) don't accept 1080 input.

From page 3 of this (http://arstechnica.com/articles/headstart.ars/1) ArsTechnica interview with Aaron Greenberg, Group Marketing Manager for Xbox Live, and Scott Henson, product unit manager for Microsoft's game technology group:
I asked if we would ever see a 360 with an HD DVD drive built-in. Another firm "no." No hesitation.

"We don't want to charge customers $200 extra for something that may be the next Betamax," Henson told me.
:eek:

Reflecting on it, it's actually pretty clever and could help address some MC usability issues. OTOH, if there is no difference in the user experience, why care how it is implemented?

1) Because it's realatively disingenuous to call it PiP when it ain't, if for nothing else other than for the audience here, who have listened to the virtues of BD-J being extolled.

2) This would seem to imply 2 seperately encoded movie segments for every section wherein there's PiP, which could be significant. Especially when things like MPEG2 and PCM are alread making things interesting

3) To keep Talk honest

I already told you "no" earlier, didn't you like that answer? :)

Questions beginning with "Why" aren't Yes/No questions. ;)