The fact that the lowest cost player with a retail price of $499 is being routinely discounted to $350 within days of its release certainly doesn't bode well for the demand side of the equation.
I guess it makes sense to read comments like this, seeing how your company doesn't do anything in retail. So just for a bit of education. CE products have a margin for the retailer. The retailer has the choice of making money that way, or discounting heavily, in the hopes of selling you something else like extended warranty, cables, content, etc.

Game consoles however, regardless of brand, have almost no margin because well, we don't have the margins to pass on :). So retailers can not discount them but instead, try to make bundles to make money that way.

Given all of this, your statement makes no sense. The fact that there is a discount, shows that there is good margin for the retailer and they are not being asked to subsidize the market.


You rarely see products with strong demand (especially those which have little direct competition) discounted, especially by nearly 30% shortly after introduction. What's up with that?!?
I explained above that what is up. But maybe you can explain why Samsung dropped its MSRP so much. That would indicate slow sales. Not whether a product is discounted at retail TVs from Panasonic and Sony get sold at discount all the time. Are they having problems moving them you think?

Yeah, right! :rolleyes:

Awesome fact filled comeback to Amir there kdragon... :rolleyes:

Blu-ray uses different approach. It is not necessary to use PRML, you know! Pre and post equalization approach also works. In fact, it is working. PRML is not the only method for increasing reliability.Small, but salient, point...

At the 3rd BDA Japan Seminar held 8/24/05, there was a presentation showing a "potential" HD DVD vs. Blu-ray Roadmap. The "2nd Generation Blu-ray Disc" on the roadmap featured...

...wait for it...

PRML.

The BDA realizes they made a compromise, and a political/ego/financial one at that. If Blu-ray continues evolving, PRML is in its future.

P.S. Interesting sidenote: this is the same presentation that projected the "maximum price" for the PS3 would be $599. I posted that here, back in 2005, and was widely ridiculed. The same presentation also showed a minimum of 6,000,000 PS3s in 2006, with only 30K BD/HD DVD standalones. So maybe the BDA adopting PRML won't pan out either. :)

Mmmm.... no I don't think so.

Can yo give me an example of a previous CE tech that knowingly had Profiles and planned on releaseing content features that would never work on early gen models, all without disclosure?

This is basically the same point that I have been trying to make. This kind of behavior is very alienating to consumers.

Steve, I'm sorry if you feel I've misled you regarding PiP; it really wasn't my intent. If you search back to my earlier posts on this topic I've never shied away from the fact that secondary video support is not required in early Blu-ray players. My comment regarding "all players can do PiP" was in reference to it being possible to provide the user experience of showing a video window on screen regardless of whether secondary video hardware support is present in a player. No, the method is not as efficient as using secondary video hardware, though if you've got the bits it can have some advantages as well. Nonetheless, if my comments led you to believe that all Blu-ray players have secondary video hardware support, I apologize.

I understand what you state your intentions are, and appreciate the apology. What I am requesting you take to whomever you can influence is this: Profiles, features, etc... are not inherantly bad. Treating the consumer as if they don't deserve to know before spending their money is.


I don't know what BR documentation he's referring to, but the actual specification primarily refers to "secondary video" and "secondary "audio" when discussing the hardware capability. To my knowledge Alex does not have access to the spec.
The exact terminology used (for those playing along at home, sections D.2.13 and D.2.14 of BD-ROM Part 3 Annex D V 2.01 Draft 2, page 1-627) is "Secondary video plane".

- Talk

OK, I guess I needed to be more clear: Given your newfound qualification of the differences between the two, does the BDA make such a distinction with their requirements?

I don't want to play word games, and BDA could call it "Super-Duper-Talking-Head-Man" for all I care, but Alex's point was that in all the BDA presentation collateral, PiP was synonomous with secondary stream support... now all of the sudden it isn't.

before I try to understand the 30 or so different conversations going on here in this thread I just want to know a few things.

As a PS3 owner and a A1 and add on owner will all 3 work in the future with every movie that is now released and for all future releases?

And does the answer hold true for every player already released for both formats?

Is it only extras that are in question or does it also include the movie itself?

From what I gather from Steve's posts is that for blu ray players already out on the market this may not be true. Talk, can you answer my questions (wrt blu ray) with a straight yes or no answer (where applicable)?

Why release a title using a feature not currently widely-supported when they can release that same feature in a way that everyone can use?!? Your question illustrates the absurdity of the argument being used here against Lions Gate's content. They released a feature providing for video commentary in a small on-screen window (I won't use the term PiP to avoid offending those who seem to have trouble distinguishing between a user interface element and a programming mechanism). I haven't seen one user comment suggesting the feature was in some way deficient, or that someone was disappointed they couldn't move the window around the screen. There is no indication that the audio or picture quality on the disc suffered as a result of the mechanism used to deliver video commentary. Yet some here are suggesting that Lions Gate "cheated", or "did PiP the wrong way", and should use a different mechanism which wouldn't work on many players today and for which the only benefit would be leaving unused space on the disc. Simply absurd.

No doubt it's a nifty thing, after all, something else to look at is better than empty space, I agree.

However, I did ask you in the Insders's thread aboout the potential additional confusion (you already admit deck/profile/capability is net well disclosed) this creates, and you didn't answer.

Scenario:

- Consumer buys 1st gen deck
- Consumer enjoys neato PiP on The Descent (and perhaps other titles)
- BD-Video 1.1. comes out
- New titles switch to new PiP method
- New titles, with PiP all of the sudden no longer work on Consumer's deck

Is the deck broken? Are the new titles broken? When does consumer realize he got shafted?

before I try to understand the 30 or so different conversations going on here in this thread I just want to know a few things.

As a PS3 owner and a A1 and add on owner will all 3 work in the future with every movie that is now released and for all future releases?

And does the answer hold true for every player already released for both formats?

Is it only extras that are in question or does it also include the movie itself?

From what I gather from Steve's posts is that for blu ray players already out on the market this may not be true. Talk, can you answer my questions (wrt blu ray) with a straight yes or no answer (where applicable)?

I think Talk would agree with me on this (I'm sure I'll be corrected if not ;) ) :

For BR the main movie is expected to always work. If not, it's a bug for which a firmware fix should reasonably be expected. Not all all addtitional features are guaranteed to work on all players, and there is not only no guarantee that this would be fixable by firmware, but hardware limitations in some current players make it impossible


I think Amir would agree with me on this (I'm sure I'll be corrected if not ;) ) :

For HD DVD both the movie and all features are expected to work on all players. If not, it's a bug for which a firmware fix should reasonably be expected.

I think Amir would agree with me on this (I'm sure I'll be corrected if not ;) ) :

For HD DVD both the movie and all features are expected to work on all players. If not, it's a bug for which a firmware fix should reasonably be expected.
I do, I do :).

I think Talk would agree with me on this (I'm sure I'll be corrected if not ;) ) :

For BR the main movie is expected to always work. If not, it's a bug for which a firmware fix should reasonably be expected. Not all all addtitional features are guaranteed to work on all players, and there is not only no guarantee that this would be fixable by firmware, but hardware limitations in some current players make it impossible


I think Amir would agree with me on this (I'm sure I'll be corrected if not ;) ) :

For HD DVD both the movie and all features are expected to work on all players. If not, it's a bug for which a firmware fix should reasonably be expected.

Has anyone though that it could be an authoring problem with the disc ?? Maybe the disc is doing something new (BD-J ?) and it is not working as expected on the players (the Sony and Pioneer). While that is not good either as it shows they didn't do proper QA testing on all players before release, it is something that is not beyond reason.

b2b

Has anyone though that it could be an authoring problem with the disc ?? Maybe the disc is doing something new and it is not working as expected on the players (the Sony and Pioneer). While that is not good either as it shows they didn't do proper QA testing on all players before release, it is something that is not beyond reason.

b2b

We are not talking about The Descent. We are talking about future capablilities.

paidgeek seems like a well schooled compressionist but he is not an optical engineer, working in Shizuoka. He works in Sony pictures, far way from the where the heat of the oven where the bread is made. So yes, I believe he is repeating what he has been told. But unless he shows us his credentials in material science and optical engineering, plus data to back his claim, I take his statement as marketing material for now.

For those who have any doubt about the popularity of BD50 this year, please know that SPE has a very close working relationship with all of our replication plants. Changing product mixes does not happen with the flip of a switch and the commitment to BD50 was made many months ago. This is a business requirement as the manufacturing of the equipment used for BD50 has a lead time (like any other piece of equipment). No one at SPE needs a degree in optical science or physics in order to place orders for the product mix we want and SPE as well as other BD supporting studios are demanding more BD50's. DADC is delivering...

We are not talking about The Descent. We are talking about future capablilities.

Sorry, I didn't notice that... I just skim the "BD-J & BD-Live" rants by the HD-DVD folks "clawing at the feet" of Blu-Ray.. :)

But the issue is the same. With both of these formats the possibility of problems cropping up goes up exponentially with the numbers of different players and use of advanced authoring using HDi and BD-J on the hundreds of titles in the future. If you think different, then good luck with that...

b2b

For those who have any doubt about the popularity of BD50 this year, please know that SPE has a very close working relationship with all of our replication plants. Changing product mixes does not happen with the flip of a switch and the commitment to BD50 was made many months ago. This is a business requirement as the manufacturing of the equipment used for BD50 has a lead time (like any other piece of equipment). No one at SPE needs a degree in optical science or physics in order to place orders for the product mix we want and SPE as well as other BD supporting studios are demanding more BD50's. DADC is delivering...

Thank you for confirming that Sony knows more about their business than some Microsoft employees unfounded and misguided speculation.. :D

b2b

That may be true... :) But it is "my" useless and misguided stuff and don't care for people to do "graffiti" modifications just to make it look bad. I expect a tad bit better of some folks (are you listening Kosty ??).

b2b Sorry, I posted the wrong chart in the AM. I saw I had the axis wrong. I wonl't bother to post the one I had intended. I realize the red line should have dropping down from the 25 GB axis. But I can't find any easy way to code it using your stick figure, so I'll demur.


But my points remain:

Cost and complexity are considerations.

There's the little thing about how much it costs to make something and ease of manufacture to consider.

An effective engineering solution doesn't waste resources on capacity that is nice to have but not needed. Compare a modern cable span bridge to a 19th century massive stone bridge.

Blu-ray dual layer may have more capacity but if they cost more than SL25 discs, they may not be used on a lot of releases, so SL 25 GB may be used a lot.

HD DVD DL30 which cost about the same as a SL15 may actually have that extra 5 GB of space for most releases.

When every Blu-ray release is 50GB you can flash the chart as is as much as you want. As long as the majority of Blu-ray releases are 25GB and there is an economic incentive to use them, half of your chart shows intentions not current reality.

BTW , I deleted the chart per your request. Request you delete your copy of it in post 1490 (10:19 am) above, or I will consider it fair use that I may post the corrected version that I intended to use, before I became disoriented by yesterdays NFL playoff action.. ;)

DADC is delivering...


When will others like Cinram begin to deliver? They installed a 50GB line last Nov,no? Do they have the stamps yet?

Sorry, I posted the wrong chart in the AM. I saw I had the axis wrong. I wonl't bother to post the one I had intended. I realize the red line should have dropping down from the 25 GB axis. But I can't find any easy way to code it using your stick figure, so I'll demur.


But my points remain:


When every Blu-ray release is 50GB you can flash the chart as is as much as you want. As long as the majority of Blu-ray releases are 25GB and there is an economic incentive to use them, half of your chart shows intentions not current reality.

BTW , I deleted the chart per your request. Request you delete your copy of it in post 1549 above, or I will consider it fair use that I may post the corrected version, I intended to use.

If you look at the top there is already a "x" (at 25GB point) with a vertical line below it to indicate the 25GB BD disc size.

PM me with a copy of your proposed changes and we can discuss it..

b2b

For those who have any doubt about the popularity of BD50 this year, please know that SPE has a very close working relationship with all of our replication plants... DADC is delivering...
Is Sony DADC your sole replicator?

Thank you for confirming that Sony knows more about their business than some Microsoft employees unfounded and misguided speculation.. :D

b2b That in spite of your characterization usually turns out to be well grounded, specific and accurate.

Any other news on a second dual format player as reported in this report?

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/business/2007/01/04/afternoon.business.update.cnn


This CNN video link refers two dual format players to be announced at CES, The LG and an HP model

That in spite of your characterization usually turns out to be well grounded, specific and accurate.

But not this time... ;)

b2b

Thank you for confirming that Sony knows more about their business than some Microsoft employees unfounded and misguided speculation.. :D

b2b
Where did this come from? I see no data presented by paidgeek to back his claim that BD-50 yields and cost will be so attractive as to become the norm, rather than exception. No breakthroughs, no new news, no nothing. Just that they have a relationship with other replicators. Well, so do we. He also provided no personal data of what investigations he has done to arrive at that conclusion. So my stance remains that he is repeating the company line.

A good BD fan, would probe further. Asking why. Asking what the yields are today and what yields they expect next year. They would ask about cycle time (how long it takes to make a disc). They would ask about cost from third-parties. They would ask why the third-parties are not making such claims about popularity of BD-50. They would ask... well, you get the picture. Instead of making ASCII charts, you would do your fovorite format but asking the right questions, rather than kissing the ground.

And one more question to ask. If Warner goes with dual BD+HD DVD discs, is paidgeek is still confident that 70-80% of the discs will be BD-50. Because if he is, I wonder why Sony says they just found out about Warner news and what he knows of the complexity of making such discs.

Food for thought. No?

looks like the 24p output talking point has become moot too...another G2 model from Toshiba, the A20:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9384177&&#post9384177

Is Sony DADC your sole replicator?

Given 25k-50k per title and less than 25 DL titles per month, it seems DADC's 5-8 lines is enough for the low demand even the yields is below 80% at >4.5s cycle time. DADC claim to have the yields>80% with no cycle time for 50GB. I still wonder why Warner or Paramount was once denied on DL. Maybe the exclusive Disney/FOX is more important at this stage.

Shore, you are a replication insider and the purpose for the question is to suggest Cinram could also do 50GB at reasonable yields? :)

Where did this come from? I see no data presented by paidgeek to back his claim that BD-50 yields and cost will be so attractive as to become the norm, rather than exception. No breakthroughs, no new news, no nothing. Just that they have a relationship with other replicators. Well, so do we. He also provided no personal data of what investigations he has done to arrive at that conclusion. So my stance remains that he is repeating the company line.

A good BD fan, would probe further. Asking why. Asking what the yields are today and what yields they expect next year. They would ask about cycle time (how long it takes to make a disc). They would ask about cost from third-parties. They would ask why the third-parties are not making such claims about popularity of BD-50. They would ask... well, you get the picture. Instead of making ASCII charts, you would do your fovorite format but asking the right questions, rather than kissing the ground.

But I though all of that stuff was your job ?? :) You know, "clawing at the feet" of Blu-Ray... :D

Maybe they don't want to comment on confidential data "with competitors watching" ??

b2b

That may be true... :) But it is "my" useless and misguided stuff and don't care for people to do "graffiti" modifications just to make it look bad. I expect a tad bit better of some folks (are you listening Kosty ??).

b2b

well, i was actually referring to your retro-active claim of copyright ownership ;)

"clawing at the feet" of Blu-Ray... :D

b2b

B2b, do you hear anything about spec change for HD DVD?

Small, but salient, point...

At the 3rd BDA Japan Seminar held 8/24/05, there was a presentation showing a "potential" HD DVD vs. Blu-ray Roadmap. The "2nd Generation Blu-ray Disc" on the roadmap featured...

...wait for it...

PRML.

The BDA realizes they made a compromise, and a political/ego/financial one at that. If Blu-ray continues evolving, PRML is in its future.

P.S. Interesting sidenote: this is the same presentation that projected the "maximum price" for the PS3 would be $599. I posted that here, back in 2005, and was widely ridiculed. The same presentation also showed a minimum of 6,000,000 PS3s in 2006, with only 30K BD/HD DVD standalones. So maybe the BDA adopting PRML won't pan out either. :)

BDA would certainly like to get their hands on PRML, without question...

And one more question to ask. If Warner goes with dual BD+HD DVD discs, is paidgeek is still confident that 70-80% of the discs will be BD-50. Because if he is, I wonder why Sony says they just found out about Warner news and what he knows of the complexity of making such discs.

Food for thought. No?

I would think that if Sony wasn't aware of the Total HD discs one could assume that Sony DADC won't be the ones making the discs. Mention was made that Cinram did the prototype disc, maybe they will do the actual production for Warner..

b2b

B2b, do you hear anything about spec change for HD DVD?

The usual rumors of a change to codify 24p in the spec. and talk of the mysterious "Performance Level 2 & 3"

b2b

before I try to understand the 30 or so different conversations going on here in this thread I just want to know a few things.

As a PS3 owner and a A1 and add on owner will all 3 work in the future with every movie that is now released and for all future releases?

And does the answer hold true for every player already released for both formats?

Is it only extras that are in question or does it also include the movie itself?

From what I gather from Steve's posts is that for blu ray players already out on the market this may not be true. Talk, can you answer my questions (wrt blu ray) with a straight yes or no answer (where applicable)?

the uncertain future is what made me ultimately pick up the PS3 as my BD player as I see that as infintely more upgradeable both in terms of ability and desire to do so...sony made this clear to me with the constant upgrades to their psp...

I would think that if Sony wasn't aware of the Total HD discs one could assume that Sony DADC won't be the ones making the discs. Mention was made that Cinram did the prototype disc, maybe they will do the actual production for Warner..

b2b
Good guesses :). So what do you think the odds are that the combo disc is BD-50+HD DVD-30? I am going to Vegas shortly and I can tell you that all the bookies there think this ain't going to happen. :) BD-50 is tough enough to get working by itself, but having an HD DVD-30 glued to the other side is enough for most people to search for other jobs than to make that combo work....

Either way though, it is clear that Sony has no visibility into this development and with Warner carrying so much weight as far as content, it is bound to screw up their percentages....

To be honest, it could screw us up too if the other side is HD DVD-15. But folks think that getting to 30 is not nearly as hard as getting the other side to 50. And that we have done well in HD DVD-15 with VC-1 even though we much prefer 30.

Ah the replication BS again.

BD50 titles are out and priced no higher than HD-DVD titles.

But the costs, the costs, the yields!!!

First it's BD50 is science fiction. Then it's but they're not really going to make a lot of BD50 titles.

Now it's back to yields and cycle times again.

:rolleyes:

Oh and I like how Amir tries to impeach the credibility of someone who contradicts his FUD for not divulging proprietary info.

By that standard, Amir has no credibility unless he discloses the EXACT sales of the add-on units, for instance.

well, i was actually referring to your retro-active claim of copyright ownership ;)

You might need to brush up on copyright law if that is still your impression of how it works..

b2b

... BD50 titles are out and priced no higher than HD-DVD titles.

But the costs, the costs, the yields!!!

First it's BD50 is science fiction. Then it's but they're not really going to make a lot of BD50 titles.

Now it's back to yields and cycle times again.

The amount of FUD here is amazing. I got suckered into half-believing that 50-Gig "impossible physics" FUD from several months ago. Fool me once, shame on me ... fool me twice, etc.

They should rename the Blu-ray/HD-DVD parts of avs to http://www.avfudforum.com ... :)

Good guesses :). So what do you think the odds are that the combo disc is BD-50+HD DVD-30? I am going to Vegas shortly and I can tell you that all the bookies there think this ain't going to happen. :) BD-50 is tough enough to get working by itself, but having an HD DVD-30 glued to the other side is enough for most people to search for other jobs than to make that combo work....

Either way though, it is clear that Sony has no visibility into this development and with Warner carrying so much weight as far as content, it is bound to screw up their percentages....

To be honest, it could screw us up too if the other side is HD DVD-15. But folks think that getting to 30 is not nearly as hard as getting the other side to 50. And that we have done well in HD DVD-15 with VC-1 even though we much prefer 30.

Not a clue.. My only comment is that Warner seems to be in "spaghetti" mode and is throwing everything they got to see what sticks to the consumer... :)

b2b

Has anyone though that it could be an authoring problem with the disc ?? Maybe the disc is doing something new (BD-J ?) and it is not working as expected on the players (the Sony and Pioneer). While that is not good either as it shows they didn't do proper QA testing on all players before release, it is something that is not beyond reason.

b2b

Chris Walker purportedly pm'd someone in the Pio BDP-HD1 thread that the problem was related to certain "instructions" being in an unexpected place on the disc...this may be so but doesn't explain why the other players work...

Gruberts link to the "Toshiba" PR announcement. Adding the A20 for $599 with 1080p, but still no mention of 24p. If this is all that Tosh is bringing to CES, call me underwhelmed. :confused:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070107/clsu004.html?.v=3

b2b

You might need to brush up on copyright law if that is still your impression of how it works..

b2b

no brushing up needed here... :p

but still no mention of 24p. If this is all that Tosh is bringing to CES, call me underwhelmed.Although I sincerely doubt there's anything the HD DVD camp could do that wouldn't underwhelm you, Robert from Value Electronics reports (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9384177&&#post9384177):

The A20 will output resolutions up to 1080p at 24 or 60 fps, like the XA2.

I haven't seen one user comment suggesting the feature was in some way deficient, or that someone was disappointed they couldn't move the window around the screen.
Talk - no one was arguing about whether the pseudo-PiP looked similar to how it would have if the player had truly generated it as per spec.

The discussion is about whether your statement (in reference to current BD player being obsolete or not ) that "current BD players can all do PiP right now" was actually somewhat misleading in the context of the discussion that was going on...

Although I sincerely doubt there's anything the HD DVD camp could do that wouldn't underwhelm you, Robert from Value Electronics reports (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9384177&&#post9384177):

As a matter of fact I have said that I am impressed with the inclusion of the HVQ chip in the XA2. That's a very good thing..

b2b

Although I sincerely doubt there's anything the HD DVD camp could do that wouldn't underwhelm you, Robert from Value Electronics reports (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9384177&&#post9384177):
Now THAT's a knockout punch! :)

HD-DVD is great if all you like is Toshiba players or have $200 and a Xb360.. :)

b2b
Your forgetting "or have $200 and a PC" :)

Lets not forget that it seems that the mojoity of those polled here and elsewhere already prefer HD DVD to BR, so we'll take that bit as a given...

I created this poll a while ago to sort of get people with your mindset thinking:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=767415

The fact is, you have to remove yourself from the thinking that somehow, it's the optical formats that are responsible for good or bad movie quality. It's not, it's the studios and the studios alone.
Sorry to disagree, xb.

Your poll left out some of the realities of the day.

For instance, it's easy for you to blame the studios, and in some cases it's deserved (Sony Pictures, cough cough).

But what about when the studios had expected to have 50 Gig discs available and they weren't?

What about when the studios would have LOVED to produce a disc in a certain way, with certain codecs, but the production tools for thatformat couldn't support it or wouldn't allow it??

Your poll leaves out the realities, which had FAR more of an impact on the releases than anything you can blame the studios for.

HD DVD was ready, and had the tools. BD wasn't, and to some extent today, still isn't.

It's interesting to hear people talk about the PQ of certain discs on the 2 formats. I was reading, in one thread, where a poster thought one film had a PQ of 10 on one format, but the same film was only a 9 on the other format.

The PQ available on the 2 formats will not determine who wins this "war". The average consumer ... who will ultimately determine which, if either, format will win wide acceptance doesn't care about PQ or SQ, beyond a certain point.

The VHS Vs. Beta war was won by the player with lesser PQ, an inferior transport system, and a larger (not as easily stored) cartridge. VHS won because there were more players at a lower cost ... and there was that recording time issue.

People were reluctant to give up their VHS players for DVD players, in spite of the significantly improved PQ and SQ and in spite of the vastly superior features ... such as no rewind; extras; chapter skip and perfect pause, fast forward and rewind ... etc.

VHS started disappearing when DVD players dropped below $100 and it became more difficult to find VHS tapes. It still took from 1997 until a few years ago before people trashed their old VHS players for a new vastly superior, in almost every way, $89 DVD player. This was true even though there was no format war with SD DVD players.

Until HD players and the discs drop to around the price of SD players and their discs; and new titles are available that play on only one HD player, the average consumer will keep their perfectly capable SD player. Even if they need a new player, they won't buy a significantly more costly HD player.

Remember either DVD-Audio or Super Audio CDs were both going to replace CDs due to superior SQ. There are many reasons both formats are almost dead. The lack of requirement for another format is just one.

The public chose MP3s. Not only do MP3s offer worse sound quality than CDs, they don't come pre-packaged with booklets and pretty covers.

Now there's ipod services, such as the iTunes Music Store.

So the winner is .... HD VOD and HD DVRs or more likely ...

Since the average person doesn't care that much about the increased PQ and SQ of SD Vs. HD DVDs, the future increased Internet bandwidth will likely have the same affect on DVD sales as they had/have on CD sales.

PCs with a terabyte of hard drive space connected to an Internet with super-fast download speeds will mean that, in all likelihood, neither HD format will gain widespread acceptance.

There are more and more legal ways of downloading major films and with the growth of media-centre PCs, the jigsaw nears completion. Hd dvd players are, probably, not in the future for most people.

Broadband penetration is much more difficult in North America due to the comparitively massively lower population densities than places like Seoul or Hong Kong. Taking 4 hours to d/l an HD movie isn't my cup of tea, and frankly I'd prefer to watch HD and will get on the computer rather than watch SD these days.

You're right, both formats are moving too hard and too fast even if they weren't facing a format war. SACD and DVD-A made the same mistake. There's certainly a niche for the videophile/audiophile market, but it's most probably being overestimated on both sides. If they could offer incentive (earlier release for hi def, perhaps or lagged release for DVD, or a combo however nominal/marginal) other than PQ/AQ, they might be able to make better traction. As is, they're largely limited to HD penetration. The fact that there's no quantitative or qualitative PQ/AQ difference between the two formats doesn't help, either. If BD can maintain and capitalize on their superior studio and CE support in 2007, they have a good chance of winning, otherwise stalemate if not pyrrhic victory.

They should both be going for the LD market/niche rather than attempting to dethrone DVD at this stage. Not that I'm at all unhappy to be missing LD prices (no way to $50-80 releases!).

The game consoles on both sides are the leading play formats and best their standalones in cost by at least half, which is certainly an unprecedented dynamic. I'm certainly not willing to touch a standalone at this point.

No, he isn't.
Once again you've totally missed the point and have misstated the facts. The PS3 will happily output 1080p content in 1080i format. Any TV which can accept 1080i will play all 1080 PS3 content at its native resolution (though obviously it will be interlaced if the TV can't accept progressive).
On point one, he WAS. That is why I included his quote where he stated "1080p" to avoid a immediate denial.

On point two, you have "accidentally" glazed over the majority of the TVs that accpet 1080i, but not 1080p. And the sets that accept 1080i mostly deinterlace them to 1080p, before display at their native panel, which could be 720p, 768p, 1080p or a host of resolutions.

And finally, re: "though obviously it will be interlaced if the TV can't accpet 1080p", there are virtually Zero set on the market today that will display interlaced 1080i output, since they are mostly based on progressive display mechanisms today.

I refer back to my post... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9380605&&#post9380605

Mmmm.... no I don't think so.

Can yo give me an example of a previous CE tech that knowingly had Profiles and planned on releaseing content features that would never work on early gen models, all without disclosure?
Thank you, Steve - that is exactly the issue here and the reason why I have made it a point to inform buyers about this.

I think it is in very poor taste (and possibly worse, legally) the way that this information has been made "not easily available" to the buyers...

Four hours is optimistic.

And no I'm not referring to the HD done on the cheap of the X360 downloads.

Cable and Telcos are offering 6 Mbps down as their premium or "elite" services.

We're a LONG ways away from downloading 30 GB or bigger files.

I wasn't talking about the downloading quality HD movies. I was trying to say that most people don't care about HD quality films. They would just as soon download an SD version.

Since the average person doesn't care that much about the increased PQ and SQ of SD Vs. HD DVDs, the future increased Internet bandwidth will likely have the same affect on DVD sales as they had/have on CD sales.

I think Amir would agree with me on this (I'm sure I'll be corrected if not ) :

For HD DVD both the movie and all features are expected to work on all players. If not, it's a bug for which a firmware fix should reasonably be expected.




I do, I do :).

From cnet (http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-6147875.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1_3-0-20&subj=news):

The [LG] player includes both red and blue laser diodes, which enables it to read all three disc formats. However, [b]while users can take advantage of all the interactive features included on Blu-ray discs, it is currently limited to simply playing HD DVDs without their interactive functions, [LG North America President and CEO Michael] Ahn said.

On point one, he WAS. That is why I included his quote where he stated "1080p" to avoid a immediate denial.

On point two, you have "accidentally" glazed over the majority of the TVs that accpet 1080i, but not 1080p. And the sets that accept 1080i mostly deinterlace them to 1080p, before display at their native panel, which could be 720p, 768p, 1080p or a host of resolutions.

And finally, re: "though obviously it will be interlaced if the TV can't accpet 1080p", there are virtually Zero set on the market today that will display interlaced 1080i output, since they are mostly based on progressive display mechanisms today.

I refer back to my post... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9380605&&#post9380605


Thank you, Steve - that is exactly the issue here and the reason why I have made it a point to inform buyers about this.

I think it is in very poor taste (and possibly worse, legally) the way that this information has been made "not easily available" to the buyers...
All of these players have disclaimers to avoid legal problems.
Designs and specifications are subject to change without notice.
This model may not be compatible with features and/or specifications that may be added in the future.
That quote comes from the A2 owners manual.. ;)

b2b

I wasn't talking about the downloading quality HD movies. I was trying to say that most people don't care about HD quality films. They would just as soon download an SD version.


Hmm...


According to the report, studios such as Warner are seeing consumers download high definition versions of films over standard formats where both are on offer, with the average US $1 more for HD content no barrier to purchase.

"If you look at our sales charts, movies like The Perfect Storm, Unforgiven and Swordfish are all doing disproportionately better than you would expect, and the only explanation is that they're available in HD," said Ross Honey, senior director for media at Microsoft's content and partner strategy group.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=21991

From cnet (http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-6147875.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1_3-0-20&subj=news):
Quote:
The [LG] player includes both red and blue laser diodes, which enables it to read all three disc formats. However, [b]while users can take advantage of all the interactive features included on Blu-ray discs, it is currently limited to simply playing HD DVDs without their interactive functions, [LG North America President and CEO Michael] Ahn said.

Hmm... No advanced HDi support on SoC ???

The player will play 1080p content, currently the highest possible video resolution available, and has an HDMI 1.2 output.
Only HDMI 1.2 ???

Why is the word "kludge" coming to mind... ;)

b2b

Cable and Telcos are offering 6 Mbps down as their premium or "elite" services.

That's so last year. Comcast offers 8, FiOS offers 5/15/30 Mbps. Woud love to see a major metro breakdown of top speeds offered for less than $75/month.

Broadband penetration is much more difficult in North America due to the comparitively massively lower population densities than places like Seoul or Hong Kong.

Don't say NA. Just talk about US. Broadband is much better off in Canada - some of which have much sparcer density than the US. BTW, this is a recurring discussion on slashdot and don't want to start that here. But, I've to note that even in the dense parts of the US, broadband speed & price are bad compared to simialar places in Japan or Korea. It all comes down to public investment.

Sony claims to have shipped 1 million PS3s in 2006 in NA.

That is more than the number of X360s shipped in its first two months in 2005.

Isn't 90% of the Canadian population within 50 miles of the US? I am probably being generous to include Mexico, so should probably mention the US & Canada, though. ;)

Heh, I'm surprised a Microsoft guy can stand to go to Slashdot... their culture is decidedly anti-MS (and anti-Sony). :D I have Slashdot on my scrolling RSS news ticker, so am quite familiar with it. ;)

Sony claims to have shipped 1 million PS3s in 2006 in NA.

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=AP&Date=20070107&ID=6320540

That is more than the number of X360s shipped in its first two months in 2005.

There's also a report that in Japan, they've shipped about 446k through 12/31.

That said, now the momentum may be stalling and they will have to stoke it with software and/or a price cut. Of course, the EU launch should boost sales again.

That's so last year. Comcast offers 8, FiOS offers 5/15/30 Mbps. Woud love to see a major metro breakdown of top speeds offered for less than $75/month.

Right. Also there is a legislation on the hill (will likely pass in the new congress) to make things like FIOS to be approved at a state level rather than by municipality. This might help speed up real broadband adoption by the masses (the current broadband definition is a pathetic 256K down, IIRC) ....

No, it's a reflection of the fact that Blu-ray is intended to provide some headroom to support future content requirements. As I've said, Blu-ray is revolutionary, HD-DVD is evolutionary. If waiting an extra six months means we get a format which is good years longer than what HD-DVD's capabilities can provide, I think it's a reasonable trade-off.


This is what I don't understand ... there is this inference that in an extra six months, we get this format in Blu-Ray that is good years longer than HD-DVD. And the delay in these profiles is so that they can make a better format ...

... But ... From what I am reading ... we have to wait 6 months not for something *better* than what we have in HD-DVD today ... but for something that does the *same things* that we can do *today* with HD-DVD. :confused:

Isn't 90% of the Canadian population within 50 miles of the US? I am probably being generous to include Mexico, so should probably mention the US & Canada, though. ;)

Right. But far off places in sasketuan have better broadband than some places in the heart of major metros here.

Heh, I'm surprised a Microsoft guy can stand to go to Slashdot... their culture is decidedly anti-MS (and anti-Sony). :D

If you knew real MS people - instead of just their carricatures - you won't be surprised ;)

That's so last year. Comcast offers 8, FiOS offers 5/15/30 Mbps. Woud love to see a major metro breakdown of top speeds offered for less than $75/month.

Problem with FIOS is getting the demarc to the MPOE done. I work with an ISP and am familiar with the difficulties. Verizon has the backbone EVERYWHERE in their turf (GTE country) in So Cal, but they have to dig conduit for the last part and that is slow going to connect the glass backbone to the actual prem.

I can't wait to kick Charter to the curb for FIOS!

Right. But far off places in sasketuan have better broadband than some places in the heart of major metros here.



If you knew real MS people - instead of just their carricatures - you won't be surprised ;)

That might be true, but sadly many of us here on AVS have seen nothing (sans sspears) to dispel that sort of impression.. :)

b2b

Hmm...

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=21991

I don't think X Box owners who decide to pay $1 more to download an HD version of a film are average consumers. Nevertheless, it does not change the main point of my post which is that neither current HD format will gain widespread public acceptance.

Downloaded films, whether HD or SD and HD VOD recorded on HD DVRs will win wider acceptance before either HD format has a chance to gain a substantial foot-hold.

I remember you saying recently, when asked by a member why you never correct rdjam and some other posters when they say something incorrect, that you feel it's not your place to 'meddle.' Well... what in the world do I have to do with Talk, Paidgeeks, and Pentons arguments? Though I will say the majority of their time is spent discussing Blu-ray, whereas... the majority of your time is spent discussing... well, seemingly Blu-ray. So no I don't see them singing the praises of HD DVD, but for what it's worth (and maybe I don't read enough of their posts), I don't see them knocking HD DVD.

Wow.

While paidgeek certainly has been informative and courteous (and it's much appreciated by me, BTW) saying Talkstr8 hasn't been actively knocking HD DVD is downright disingenuous.

If you knew real MS people - instead of just their carricatures - you won't be surprised ;)

I doubt it... but then I don't have a negative opinion on Microsoft, or it's people, as a whole. I've always rather liked Windows for home use (though I work on SuSE Linux and OS X Apples), as I'm a gamer. Even I can't stand some of sladhdot's generally pro-Apple/anti-MS bias.

That's so last year. Comcast offers 8, FiOS offers 5/15/30 Mbps. Woud love to see a major metro breakdown of top speeds offered for less than $75/month.

Comcast may "offer" 8 but their real life speeds are under 6:

http://www.dslreports.com/archive/comcast.net

Oh and if you point it out, they will say those speed tests aren't valid. But they can't point you to a valid measurement.

I'm looking to dump them because of heavy packet losses.

Anyways, forget about the end-user broadband. Which service is ready to incur the huge costs of serving up a large collection of HD content? The bandwidth costs will force them to price at parity with packaged media, without offering anywhere near the quality and features. And studios won't let you burn downloaded files because they want to sell you the packaged media first, which is their proven revenue model.

Problem with FIOS is getting the demarc to the MPOE done. I work with an ISP and am familiar with the difficulties. Verizon has the backbone EVERYWHERE in their turf (GTE country) in So Cal, but they have to dig conduit for the last part and that is slow going to connect the glass backbone to the actual prem.

I can't wait to kick Charter to the curb for FIOS!

So Verizon has no interest in deploying FIOS outside of the areas where they were the ILEC?

It would be so great if Verizon cherry-picked some areas out of AT&T/SBC/Pac Bells turf out here in CA.

Since AT&T is sticking to the inferior IPTV/FTTN infrastructure.

I doubt it...

So did I, before joining MS about 2 years back. The crowd at MS is no different from any other geek crowd in any other place I've worked with (which were mostly non-MS shops since my specialization has been Unix/Oracle).

Even I can't stand some of sladhdot's generally pro-Apple/anti-MS bias.

Yes, a lot of them go overboard. Then again, I don't read most of that stuff ...

Originally Posted by BenDover
well, i was actually referring to your retro-active claim of copyright ownership
You might need to brush up on copyright law if that is still your impression of how it works..

b2b perhaps I should change my signature to read:


"Post is copyright © 2007 by Kosty
All rights reserved with permission to copy and publish without alteration is hearby granted. Disfigurement or un-authorised modification is not allowed. Intelligent discussions of issued raised are allowed, fanboy bleatings or irrrational biases are not. Please respect other peoples work (however humble it is..) But if you post something stupid in response all rights reserved to hit your softball out of the park"

Wow.

While paidgeek certainly has been informative and courteous (and it's much appreciated by me, BTW) saying Talkstr8 hasn't been actively knocking HD DVD is downright disingenuous.

Hey now slow down... How is it disengenuous if I hadn't seen it happening? Which is all that I said in my post. I'm full willing to admit that later on in the thread I saw Talkstr8t call HD DVD 'inferior.' Well.... and so in that I was mistaken. And definitely no, I don't think that's anymore ok to do than what I was accusing Amir of; I'd much much prefer if people stayed positive about their own formats rather than get negative on the opposition's.

btw, i have got to give it up for this "coating" on the bd discs...while it certainly isn't fingerprint/smudge resistant/proof, it does appear to be scratch resistant.

when you clean the disc to remove the fingerprints/smudges, using even your t-shirt, you don't get the usual "marring" of the surface you would get with standard optical media...you know those "scratches" that appear to come from you using just about any material to wipe the surface of a standard optical disc...

i'm lazy and really like using my t-shirt ;)

Small, but salient, point...

At the 3rd BDA Japan Seminar held 8/24/05, there was a presentation showing a "potential" HD DVD vs. Blu-ray Roadmap. The "2nd Generation Blu-ray Disc" on the roadmap featured...

...wait for it...

PRML.

The BDA realizes they made a compromise, and a political/ego/financial one at that. If Blu-ray continues evolving, PRML is in its future.

P.S. ... So maybe the BDA adopting PRML won't pan out either. :)Just so that my post about PRML is not taken out of context: I have always said there are compromises/trade-offs in hardware on both sides. I believe Toshiba's PRML to be a better solution for optical channel too. They have excellent expertise in it since years. This is not a secret, really.
I don't know the politics of why BDA decided to go for pre-emphasis/post-equalization for the channel (I don't care), but it works. BD has a higher road-map for the drive speeds, though. I am sure sooner or later they will revisit this for higher speeds and go for PRML or refine the current approach if current method doesn't work. It is not a small change to switch to PRML because it requires different physical bits encoding/decoding among other things, but by the time this actually comes into practical consideration, most front-end chips will be targeting both BD and HD-DVD if not already, and then they will be able to reuse PRML logic without big change in design. Also, hopefully, Toshiba will be on board by then (because otherwise, they will have to develop their own PRML solution)! :)
Unlike media processors, front-end chips are mostly hard-coded in hardware, so I will not be surprised if PRML is never adopted for BD even if there is no politics.

Small, but salient, point...

At the 3rd BDA Japan Seminar held 8/24/05, there was a presentation showing a "potential" HD DVD vs. Blu-ray Roadmap. The "2nd Generation Blu-ray Disc" on the roadmap featured...

...wait for it...

PRML.

The BDA realizes they made a compromise, and a political/ego/financial one at that. If Blu-ray continues evolving, PRML is in its future.
Oh Lord, something else I have to learn? :eek:

PRML - what does that stand for, P.R. Makeitup Language? :)

It's just humor guys! Seriously, tho how does PRML factor here, with Bluray, Alex?

All of these players have disclaimers to avoid legal problems.

That quote comes from the A2 owners manual.. ;)

b2b
It rather worrisome that no one in the Bluray camp realizes that putting it IN THE MANUAL is a MAJOR legal problem for them, as this is too late, since the customer has already bought the player and most may never read the manual anyway.

This is almost a case-model for deceptive marketing, IMHO, given how much publicity and hype the BDA gang have given these features to encourage sales.

Hmm... No advanced HDi support on SoC ???


Only HDMI 1.2 ???

Why is the word "kludge" coming to mind... ;)

b2b
Keith, can you confirm whether the LG hybrid player is using the Sigma chipset?

It rather worrisome that no one in the Bluray camp realizes that putting it IN THE MANUAL is a MAJOR legal problem for them, as this is too late, since the customer has already bought the player and most may never read the manual anyway.

This is almost a case-model for deceptive marketing, IMHO, given how much publicity and hype the BDA gang have given these features to encourage sales.


Keith, can you confirm whether the LG hybrid player is using the Sigma chipset?

The real question is if the LG player is only providing basic HDi support in the form of plain menus. If that meets the minimum requirements for HD-DVD, just what can people expect from other mfgs (when and if) they start building HD-DVD players ??

We have been hearing for months the mantra of "one HDi, one HDi" complete and ready to go, but now see that isn't exactly the truth.. :confused:

b2b

Oh Lord, something else I have to learn? :eek:

PRML - what does that stand for, P.R. Makeitup Language? :)

It's just humor guys! Seriously, tho how does PRML factor here, with Bluray, Alex?PRML: Partial Response Maximum Likelihood. It is a method to improve reliability of physical signals (in this case off of optical discs). Toshiba has a PRML for HD-DVD. DVDs also use it, actually; different distribution, of course, since different media have different properties. Toshiba carries their expertise from years of HDD development. And no, you don't need to learn it. Unless you want to make it a talking point (you don't have to learn it in that case either)! :)

The numbers still don't have meaning, but this is the battle thread:

Top two HD disc rankings on Amazon are Blu-ray (http://www.hdgamedb.com/amazon/rank.aspx)

At least as of 8:30pm EST - Jan 7 2007

That's a first.

Gary

They were thinking they actually knew the required bitrates for the codecs they were using?

You can start complaining about peak bitrates once BD titles start looking better than HD DVD.

Which isn't going to happen.
Never say 'Never'.

- HD.. What'sHD

Yeah, you know... Talkstr8t is saying something that is technically true; I'm no fan of that sort of wordplay. Indeed it's those 'letter of the law' vs 'spirit of the law' situations that get me worked up with Amir so often. So Talkstr8t, I mean I would just let the whole PiP thing go... everyone who follows this stuff, sort of knows the deal anyway.
I agree absolutely with the above sentiments. My thinking exactly about why Amir's posts are kind of grating, personally speaking.

I would ask that those supporting BD not take that path cos it only turns people against their viewpoints, present and unfortunately, future ones. It will only hurt BD as a format.

(clip) It still doesn't mean you know more than him! The right and left brains are still closer together than some other body parts (or parts of some other body)!
hehe, nice analogy. Head of Nail.. HIT

What'sHD, I sent you a PM.

(clip)So when I speak of competition, I mean that studios will have to spend more time making their releases look better. IF only BD existed, what would have prevented them from continuing to release sub-par discs? Since there was HD DVD to compete, there was something to compare against. Again, this is totally an encoding issue, but one side has been doing a better job.
HD-exclusive studios did do a better job at encodings initially. BD-exclusive studios have caught up with them (mostly sony, the obvious culprit), the quickness of the catching-up due largely to the evident gulf in PQ.

The above makes me think DVD could have used a long-term, competing format in the consumer space, as could have VHS. PQ would have improved faster.

This is about movies. Clearly, they'll fit on a HD30 disc at a very high quality. As VC1 and AVC HP improve they'll fit with even more room to spare. Or are we going to see 4+ hour long movies routinely because all of a sudden there is more room with BD50?It's not just about movie length. It's about additional bonus content (probably going well beyond the standard deleted scenes / making of / gag reel which we expect today). It's about bundling additional content (buy Borat, get a season of Ali G for free; buy Star Wars and get a Star Wars PS3 starter game bundled). It's about interactivity (bundle a custom version of "Scene It" tailored to the movie). It's about complementary formats (i.e. Blu-ray camcorders). It's about non movie titles (educational, reference, etc.).

We've probably only got one chance to get next-generation optical media right. To waste that chance on "good enough (for today)" would be a tragically missed opportunity.

- Talk

Keith, can you confirm whether the LG hybrid player is using the Sigma chipset?

No. Apparently Broadcom.

I suspect it is essentially a modified BD player ... so they have not had time to fully develop their HDi programs ... and thus probably missing a few of those features.

I personally don't care that much about secondary video. What I am concerned about is whether discs with this feature will be completely unplayable on my first generation player. Are you telling me that my concern is unfounded, and that as long as I don't care about the secondary video feature, I will be able to access all other features on the disc without upgrading to a second generation or later player?Yes. I would expect that any titles released which simply don't work on a given player would be a bug (of either the title or the player), not a design decision, and likely to be rectified via firmware update, title re-release, or title update via network.

For example, if a title has video commentary and you play it on a player which doesn't support secondary video, I'd simply expect you not to see the secondary video window (though the audio should work fine).

If I'm thankful for something, it's that due to the fact that we are in a format war.. more than usual studios are having attention called to PQ discrepencies, and everyone more or less has it in their head now that Universal and their encodes are the ones to catch to help their own interests move forward. No more being lazy. And for this I don't even thank HD DVD so much as I thank Universal, who is fighting their hearts out... as one would expect from the sole exclusive studio of their chosen format. And I think their efforts have resulted in excellence.

But again, that is excellence I associate with Universal, not with HD DVD. I hope it rubs off on the other studios, and frankly I'm happy to say I think it already has.
Yup, well said. Kudos to Universal. If anyone here has any inside source in Universal studios, please convey the heartfelt gratitude of HD-loving AVSers for their encodings (I hope I can presume that we appreciate universal's work).

They kicked sony studios' butt PQ-wise and contributed to the rapidity of the improvement in PQ. As a fan of high def and of BD, I thank them for that. I also thank MS for a great job with the VC1 encodings on universal titles.

From the Sony CES Keynote

http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/07/live-from-the-sony-ces-keynote/

4:54 - "So let's kick things off with the PS3." They're bringing up Peter Dille to give a PS3 update -- you may recall Peter? He's going over the usual PS3 pimping. Their goal: to ship 1m PS3s in 2006. Their accomplishment: reaching that goal. "One of the most important consumer electronics products of the decade." Apparently the PS3 has sold 1m units faster than PS and PS2, so he sounds pretty optimistic amidst the criticism surrounding Sony of late. Their next goal: 6m by March 2007.

I don't remember that goal. I wonder what the March goal will be come Apirl of this year.

Keith, can you confirm whether the LG hybrid player is using the Sigma chipset?Looks like for this player LG has "strategic partnership (http://www.cepro.com/news/editorial/16825.html)" with Broadcom.

EDIT: Ooops! Natraj already answered.

The amount of FUD here is amazing. I got suckered into half-believing that 50-Gig "impossible physics" FUD from several months ago. Fool me once, shame on me ... fool me twice, etc.

They should rename the Blu-ray/HD-DVD parts of avs to http://www.avfudforum.com ... :)
Join the club on the BD50 suckering. The references to how BD50 would never happen was one of two things:

- The poster's contacts were un/mis-informed and were not all-knowing, insider types from the actual companies that made the discs. Thus, a mistake but non-intentional, though it would have been good to first verify the knowledge-level of the informants.

- Or it was an intentional attempt to cause confusion.

For the record, benefit of doubt was extended to the poster (personally) until the first BD50 titles rolled out in retails outlets. Pissed me off (at the poster) no end when they did.

From cnet (http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-6147875.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1_3-0-20&subj=news):

The [LG] player includes both red and blue laser diodes, which enables it to read all three disc formats. However, [b]while users can take advantage of all the interactive features included on Blu-ray discs, it is currently limited to simply playing HD DVDs without their interactive functions, [LG North America President and CEO Michael] Ahn said.

And Amir has already said:

Sounds like he is saying they have not finished their HD DVD implementation and only support the older DVD menus (used by some discs in Japan). If true, they will have hard time getting HD DVD logo and claim compliance as all the discs in US/EU use adavnced content. Maybe they plan to do a firmware upgrade later?

I am running off to CES. If I learn more and can disclose it, I will do that.

So I'll be interested in knowing if it's a "legit" player or not as well.

The numbers still don't have meaning, but this is the battle thread:

Top two HD disc rankings on Amazon are Blu-ray (http://www.hdgamedb.com/amazon/rank.aspx)

At least as of 8:30pm EST - Jan 7 2007

That's a first.

Gary

I don't really understand how they calc those numbers but it looks like there is some longer term averaging going on. And if I understand the tables at the bottom there were only 10 discs in total sold today in either format by all studios, at least for the 10 most popular. That's an average of 1 apiece. Is this possible?

It show we can't trust the numbers much as any statistical sample but even more it shows very low sales for hidef DVD in general.

It looks like if I bought a dozen of either format tomorrow I could easily choose the winner. ;)

- Tom

All of these players have disclaimers to avoid legal problems.

That quote comes from the A2 owners manual.. ;)

b2b

Greeeeat... fine print in the manual.

Perhaps, seeing as how Talk, Richard, wco81, xbd, and others have all igonored my resquest for some easily accessible pulbic info cor a customer to educate themselves on BR profiles, perhaps you'd be kind enough to point me to some?

Good to see that Sony sold / shipped a Million and a Half PS3s ~.

Under the 2M target but still good stuff. Well done, Sony, for an awesome console and here's hoping they fix the bugs, as requested by owners.

Looking forward to the launch in Singapore. Hoo baby

I don't really understand how they calc those numbers but it looks like there is some longer term averaging going on. And if I understand the tables at the bottom there were only 10 discs in total sold today in either format by all studios, at least for the 10 most popular. That's an average of 1 apiece. Is this possible?

It show we can't trust the numbers much as any statistical sample but even more it shows very low sales for hidef DVD in general.

It looks like if I bought a dozen of either format tomorrow I could easily choose the winner. ;)

- Tom


Umm, no. The numbers at the bottom are not totals of individual discs sold, but rather the number of titles in the top 10 (or top 25, 50, 100, etc.).

...I suspect it is essentially a modified BD player ... so they have not had time to fully develop their HDi programs ... and thus probably missing a few of those features.The question is: Are they allowed to release this player? Will it ever support full HDi? How is this any different than the BD player profiles? Having said that, I think we need more info on this.

I have showed my disappointment regarding BD profiles (lack of info, that is), so it is not that I am trying to find some talking point here, but I think we are not told everything we should know about HD-DVD. If true, this is equally confusing at best and appalling at worst. As far as I am concerned, I am confused.

Good to see that Sony sold / shipped a Million and a Half PS3s ~.

Under the 2M target but still good stuff. Well done, Sony, for an awesome console and here's hoping they fix the bugs, as requested by owners.

Looking forward to the launch in Singapore. Hoo baby

Well, it's also under the 4 million target, but that's ok.

Where have you seen 1.5M PS3s? Haven't seen anyone post that number, even for current sales, let alone 2006.

This is what I don't understand ... there is this inference that in an extra six months, we get this format in Blu-Ray that is good years longer than HD-DVD. And the delay in these profiles is so that they can make a better format ...

... But ... From what I am reading ... we have to wait 6 months not for something *better* than what we have in HD-DVD today ... but for something that does the *same things* that we can do *today* with HD-DVD. :confused:

Hmm... good point. Weren't BR players out in August? It's now Jan... so we are around the six month mark.

Can BR players do today what HD DVD could do 6 months ago? :confused:

[Consolidating your many responses into one post]
I don't think it's as big a deal if they can support secondary video, since they won't be able to support BD-Live content anyway.Now that's odd. Why would the presence of some net-interactive capability obviate the need for local "real PiP" (to use your term)?My point is that most people who are interested in bonus content are probably not going to be satisfied with secondary video support but not care that network connectivity isn't present. I suspect you've broadly got two camps of people - those who "just want the damn movie", and those who want every feature.
Which is the exact same price point VCR's, CD players, and DVD players came to market at, and the same basic dance happened there as well.Can you give me an example of a previous CE tech that knowingly had Profiles and planned on releaseing content features that would never work on early gen models, all without disclosure?But the fact remains that many later DVD's didn't work on 1G players. I appreciate that you believe 1G buyers may feel "misled" by the less-than-obvious existence of profiles in the Blu-ray specification. Perhaps some will. But I contend that 1G buyers generally understand the risks associated with buying 1G products (especially one which is engaged in a format war which will probably only end with one victor). Further, it's all a matter of degree. The HD-DVD spec has optional features (DTS-HD MA support, which is somewhat well-known, or enhanced secondary video, which is practically an industry secret) which aren't currently implemented on any players and for which content authored to simply won't work on existing players.
I understand what you state your intentions are, and appreciate the apology. What I am requesting you take to whomever you can influence is this: Profiles, features, etc... are not inherantly bad. Treating the consumer as if they don't deserve to know before spending their money is.I've already raised this issue within the BDA and there was agreement that there is no intent to deceive anyone. I expect that when the BD-Video / BD-Live logos and related content start appearing you'll see more information on this topic, but I wouldn't hold your breath for much formal literature on pre-6/07 vs post-6/07 players simply due to the overwhelming number of other tasks considered to be of greater importance.
[quote]Alex's point was that in all the BDA presentation collateral, PiP was synonomous with secondary stream support... now all of the sudden it isn't.The term "PiP" clearly can mean different things to different people. The Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picture-in-picture) refers to both dual-tuner television (analogous to secondary video) and the insertion of the Olympic flame over the open ceremonies of the 1976 Olympics at the broadcast center (analogous to a UI element). As I posted, in the actual mandatory requirements portion of the BD-ROM spec, the term "secondary video" is used.
I did ask you in the Insders's thread aboout the potential additional confusion (you already admit deck/profile/capability is net well disclosed) this creates, and you didn't answer.I've said several times I'd rather have seen more transparency. Yes, there could be consumer confusion, though most players and titles (of both formats) do appear to have disclaimers in their manuals or packaging stating that some features may not work on all players, or some players may not support all features.

Steve (and others), I believe these issues (PiP / secondary video and profiles) has been beaten to death at this point, so I don't intend to make any more posts on the topic unless there is significant new ground being covered.

- Talk

The question is: Are they allowed to release this player? Will it ever support full HDi? How is this any different than the BD player profiles? Having said that, I think we need more info on this.

Thats true. I'd rather they delay if they are not fully HDi compliant ...

The movie itself will/should play just fine. It's just when you click for that feature it'll either not do anything or give you a "non supported" message.
However, I say "should" seeing that Descent does not play on the Sony or BR players. So you might have to wait for a firmware update down the road.The Descent does not currently play on the Sony nor Pioneer players, as I understand it, due to a simple firmware bug in the players unrelated to BD-J or hardware support, and will be corrected. That it doesn't currently play in those two players has no bearing on what will happen when content expecting secondary video or network support is run on players lacking those features.

Microsoft just announced at CES that they sold 10.4 Million Xbox360s by the end of last year.

[Consolidating your many responses into one post]


{mucho snippage}

Steve (and others), I believe these issues (PiP / secondary video and profiles) has been beaten to death at this point, so I don't intend to make any more posts on the topic unless there is significant new ground being covered.

- Talk

Talk, thanks. Believe it or I do appreciate your responses and respect your opinions, however much I may disagree with some of them.

And I was kind of letting the subject lie, before our Descent back in to it, so I'll move on if you'll be careful with your claims. ;)

Hey now slow down... How is it disengenuous if I hadn't seen it happening? Which is all that I said in my post. I'm full willing to admit that later on in the thread I saw Talkstr8t call HD DVD 'inferior.' Well.... and so in that I was mistaken. And definitely no, I don't think that's anymore ok to do than what I was accusing Amir of; I'd much much prefer if people stayed positive about their own formats rather than get negative on the opposition's.

Well if you jumped into the middle without "seeing it happen," all the more reason not to state it in the first place. Claiming to "not having seen it happen" doesn't make it OK to type it as fact...you know...the same thing you want to harp on other people about.

The bickering is getting out of hand here, as is the hypocritical cheerleading.

/Done with this nonsense

No numbers announced for Xbox add-on sales at CES keynote. Only the comment that they are selling as fast as they can make them.

Microsoft just announced at CES that they sold 10.4 Million Xbox360s by the end of last year.

Using Microsofts meaning of "sold" (as in "left the plant" with an invoice to resellers) that leaves 2 million of them waiting to be bought by real customers (ie. the people who take them home).

b2b

Looks like Liongate is in for HD DVD. They just announced that Xbox live will offer Liongate films for download. HD DVD can't be far behind!

Using Microsofts meaning of "sold" (as in "left the plant" with an invoice to resellers) that leaves 2 million of them waiting to be bought by real customers (ie. the people who take them home).

b2b

Since you want to discuss, how should we interpret Sony's announcement of 1 million PS3s last year?

Well, it's also under the 4 million target, but that's ok.

Where have you seen 1.5M PS3s? Haven't seen anyone post that number, even for current sales, let alone 2006.

I think VGCharts is reporting about 500k shipped in Japan through the end of the year.

A week before Xmas, Media Create reported about 400k sold in Japan.

For perspective, the 1 million in NA is more than the number of PS1 or PS2 shipped in a comparable amount of time.

It's also more than the number of X360s shipped in NA last year.

The 1.5 million may also end up being more than the number of X360s shipped globally last year.

Despite being priced twice as much as its predecessors.

Despite the bad games lineup.

Despite two "hot" competitors priced much cheaper.

Despite the produciton problems of blue-laser diodes so they could "force Blu-Ray down gamers' throats."

But, but, but, they promised to ship 6 million, then 4 million, then 2 million this year!

But, but, but they're so arrogant!

Since you want to discuss, how should we interpret Sony's announcement of 1 million PS3s last year?

Same thing. Except it's pretty well known that they didn't stay on the shelves very long.. :)

Neither Sony or MS sell except to resellers (not counting the "company stores") so all of those numbers are misleading to me. Retail sales is what really counts.

When and how sales are booked into the "accounted sales" numbers have got more companies in trouble with the SEC than most any other issue. Lucent back before the "big bubble" burst was "selling" products to CLECs that payed for the product with money borrowed from Lucent !! Billions were booked as "sales"... ;)

b2b

Does anyone doubt all of the PS3's shipped in 2006 sold? Come on...

I think VGCharts is reporting about 500k shipped in Japan through the end of the year.

A week before Xmas, Media Create reported about 400k sold in Japan.

For perspective, the 1 million in NA is more than the number of PS1 or PS2 shipped in a comparable amount of time.

It's also more than the number of X360s shipped in NA last year.

The 1.5 million may also end up being more than the number of X360s shipped globally last year.

Despite being priced twice as much as its predecessors.

Despite the bad games lineup.

Despite two "hot" competitors priced much cheaper.

Despite the produciton problems of blue-laser diodes so they could "force Blu-Ray down gamers' throats."

But, but, but, they promised to ship 6 million, then 4 million, then 2 million this year!

But, but, but they're so arrogant!

I didn't see Peter Dille from Sony qualify the 1 Million number as being North America sales. Of course he probably didn't check vgcharts before going on stage to make the announcement.

Based on the Microsoft and Sony announcements tonight it looks like nexgenwars.com is the more accurate site. They showed Xbox360 at about 9.4 million last year and PS3 at about 850K. So they underestimated both platforms by a bit but were in the ballpark.

By the way, back in late Novemeber I predicted that the totals at year end would be 10M for Xbox360 and 1M for PS3. Not a bad prediction if I do say so myself. ;)

Sony claims to have shipped 1 million PS3s in 2006 in NA.

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=AP&Date=20070107&ID=6320540

That is more than the number of X360s shipped in its first two months in 2005.

There's also a report that in Japan, they've shipped about 446k through 12/31.

That said, now the momentum may be stalling and they will have to stoke it with software and/or a price cut. Of course, the EU launch should boost sales again.

While this will probably be seen as good news -- and it probably is compared to some of the 'doomsday preditions' of < 700k ... weren't we promised 2M in NA and 4M Worldwide (NA/Japan?).

Also, I still think that there were more total Xbox's Available considering Europe was included in the launch (if they would have not released in Europe, I imagine their NA totals would have been much higher). Demand was also still there as most pre-orders weren't filled until early 2006.

Plus ... if I remember right, Sony and Microsoft have different definitions of 'shipped'. For Microsoft, 'Shipped' means it has been purchased by retail/online and is being shipped for channel distribution. For Sony, 'Shipped' means it was made/assembled and left the factory. Part of those 1M units for NA could very well be sitting on a very large boat on the way here.

Same thing. Except it's pretty well known that they didn't stay on the shelves very long.. :)

Neither Sony or MS sell except to resellers (not counting the "company stores") so all of those numbers are misleading to me. Retail sales is what really counts.

When and how sales are booked into the "accounted sales" numbers have got more companies in trouble with the SEC than most any other issue. Lucent back before the "big bubble" burst was "selling" products to CLECs that payed for the product with money borrowed from Lucent !! Billions were booked as "sales"... ;)

b2b

Maybe someone can step up and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Sarbox made it illegal to claim shipments into the channel as sales numbers, as channel stuffing was a very popular end of quarter sport in the heyday of the technology boom. I believe Sarbox requires companies to report only sell through numbers.

If someone knows otherwise, please chime in.

My bad, it looks like the number Sony announced was the NA number. They chose not to announce the global PS3 sales number.

I think VGCharts is reporting about 500k shipped in Japan through the end of the year.

...

For perspective, the 1 million in NA is more than the number of PS1 or PS2 shipped in a comparable amount of time.

It's also more than the number of X360s shipped in NA last year.

The 1.5 million may also end up being more than the number of X360s shipped globally last year.

...



No matter how I've tried to read your quote, I can't make this reconcile. I really have completely avoided all the console talk here, but I have to ask:

Are you trying to say that the ~10mil 360's reported as sold thru the end of the year isn't true?

Plus ... if I remember right, Sony and Microsoft have different definitions of 'shipped'. For Microsoft, 'Shipped' means it has been purchased by retail/online and is being shipped for channel distribution. For Sony, 'Shipped' means it was made/assembled and left the factory. Part of those 1M units for NA could very well be sitting on a very large boat on the way here.

Except they've been shipping them by air and said they'd continue to do so if necessary. :p

EDIT:

BTW, NPD numbers are due this Thursday.

So how many PS3s do you think are sitting on the shelves, in some warehouse, sitting in a plane cargo hold, etc.?

50k? 100k? 200k? 500k?

Except they've been shipping them by air and said they'd continue to do so if necessary. :p

Yah yah ... I remember reading that too ... but I didn't quite expect them to say when they started shipping by ... well ... 'ship' ... again. :p

Granted, it's all pretty close to the same thing ... the biggest difference being that Microsoft has been essentially 'paid' for anything they 'ship' whereas Sony's shipped numbers have only just left the factory and are sitting in a Sony warehouse waiting for a new home. For new consoles, I'm sure it's all pretty close as demand will wipe out anything in the channel so quickly that the warehouses would be pretty barren ... but ... things are starting to slow up so far. I'm guessing that by the time March rolls around, we might see things pick up some (the next batch of games comes out around then if I remember right).

I think that while these are all 'shipped' numbers, we can probably safely say that there were not that many units sitting in someone's home actually being used by January 1st 2007 -- with the larger delta being in Xboxes of course (many more Xboxes available in channel than PS3's). I'm not sure if Sony will make it to 6 Million by March ... I'm guessing more 3-4 Million Worldwide by then. I think that's a better pace than Microsoft for the first quarter as MS has their share of supply/demand issues as well.

The HD-DVD spec has optional features (DTS-HD MA support, which is somewhat well-known, or enhanced secondary video, which is practically an industry secret) which aren't currently implemented on any players and for which content authored to simply won't work on existing players.
True, but an optional feature that isn't being discussed is unlikely to be missed. Because it's option, I'd be surprised to see much in the way of enhanced secondary anytime soon. And that's probably fine - the mandatory PIP system delivers very nicely today, in all players.

No matter how I've tried to read your quote, I can't make this reconcile. I really have completely avoided all the console talk here, but I have to ask:

Are you trying to say that the ~10mil 360's reported as sold thru the end of the year isn't true?

Huh?

Where did I question the 10 million number?

Read carefully, I was pointing out that Sony may have shipped more PS3s in the first 6-7 weeks (from middle of November to end of the year) than MS shipped X360s in its first 6-7 weeks (from when it launched last year to the end of 2005).

At a higher price, despite heavy competition from the X360 this year and the Wii.

Huh?

Where did I question the 10 million number?

Read carefully, I was pointing out that Sony may have shipped more PS3s in the first 6-7 weeks (from middle of November to end of the year) than MS shipped X360s in its first 6-7 weeks (from when it launched last year to the end of 2005).

At a higher price, despite heavy competition from the X360 this year and the Wii.

As I've pointed out before, for PS3 to have a chance at winning the console war, it has to sell more units every month than the Xbox360 is currently.

The PS3 not only started at a deficit, but continues to sell less units every month than the Xbox360. To even be in the game, Sony needs to reverse that trend.

Maybe someone can step up and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Sarbox made it illegal to claim shipments into the channel as sales numbers, as channel stuffing was a very popular end of quarter sport in the heyday of the technology boom. I believe Sarbox requires companies to report only sell through numbers.

If someone knows otherwise, please chime in.

It's only illegal if it is booked as REVENUE at the point of sale. In fact, proper disclosure requires them to indicate the accounts receivables. They book the revenue when they are paid, and that will be some nominal period after the customer receives the product.

If the product is in shipment (and that is a long time by boat) it won't have been paid for, and it can't be booked as revenue.

They are quite allowed to tell people the unit counts those receivables are based on.

Microsoft does the exact same thing. Are you saying they may be breaking the law too?

Gary

Except they've been shipping them by air and said they'd continue to do so if necessary. :p

EDIT:

BTW, NPD numbers are due this Thursday.

So how many PS3s do you think are sitting on the shelves, in some warehouse, sitting in a plane cargo hold, etc.?

50k? 100k? 200k? 500k?

Very few I would reckon ... < 50k Maybe? 100k? Dunno ... not many ... I think there were a lot more Xboxes on Shelves Janurary 1st than PS3's ... by a huge margin ... in fact, I'm guessing there were probably more Xboxes in Channel (but Shipped) than there were PS3's shipped as a whole. Potentially somewhere like 1-2 million units.

I was just noting the differences in definition to add information to the mix, that's all. I'm surprised that Sony was able to get their 1M number, good on them. Though, I am disappointed that they tried to spin that as being their 'goal' all along during the Keynote. It makes me think that they think I'm stupid and/or have a very short memory. Especially considering that as recently as August they were talking about how they were on track to hit 4M. *shrug*

As far as NPD ... I like to use their numbers as ratio's ... ie: How many of A 'sold' compared to how many of B during the same period ... or ... how did the sales of A compare from month 1 to month 2, etc. I don't think the numbers are anywhere near accurate as far as how many units are actually in homes. It's a great resource though, as long as it is used in the proper context. ;)

Looks like RCA has officially bowed out of HD-DVDs "race to the bottom" (as in pricing) and is leaving the "biz" in the hands of Toshiba/MS. No news yet of Tosh/MS suckering er.. um.. welcoming in another company to fill RCAs shoes.. ;)

News is in the "News Thread"

b2b

As I've pointed out before, for PS3 to have a chance at winning the console war, it has to sell more units every month than the Xbox360 is currently.

The PS3 not only started at a deficit, but continues to sell less units every month than the Xbox360. To even be in the game, Sony needs to reverse that trend.

Well it hasn't been two months yet.

So lets see how much longer X360 outsells the PS3 each month.

Before November, X360 was selling around 220k a month. Lets see if X360 falls back to that trend. It really shouldn't because it should have a lot of games coming out by now, over a year after launch.

Meanwhile, Sony's game release calendar doesn't look so hot but with the EU launch, there should be some games which appeal to American and Japanese gamers. Don't be too shocked if the PS3 outsells the X360 in March for instance, unless there's some killer X360 title coming out then.

If PS3 outsold X360 in their respective first 6-7 weeks, lets see what it's like by the end of this year before we pronounce the lead insurmountable. ;)

It's only illegal if it is booked as REVENUE at the point of sale. In fact, proper disclosure requires them to indicate the accounts receivables. They book the revenue when they are paid, and that will be some nominal period after the customer receives the product.

If the product is in shipment (and that is a long time by boat) it won't have been paid for, and it can't be booked as revenue.

They are quite allowed to tell people the unit counts those receivables are based on.

Microsoft does the exact same thing. Are you saying they may be breaking the law too?

Gary

No, just looking for feedback on how Sarbox restricts their ability to play fast and loose with channel numbers vs. sell through numbers. I'll ask the Microsoft folks tomorrow at CES to confirm the nature of the 10.4 million number.

Looks like RCA has officially bowed out of HD-DVDs "race to the bottom" (as in pricing) and is leaving the "biz" in the hands of Toshiba/MS. No news yet of Tosh/MS suckering er.. um.. welcoming in another company to fill RCAs shoes.. ;)

News is in the "News Thread"

b2b

*sigh*

Looks like RCA has officially bowed out of Blu-Ray's "race to the bottom" (as in pricing) and is leaving the "biz" in the hands of Sony. No news yet of Sony suckering er.. um.. welcoming in another company to fill RCAs shoes..

I don't understand why to post things that are just going to get a rise out of people? It clearly states RCA won't be supporting either format: :confused:

If there is anything specific anybody here is personally very interested in at CES, I may be able to grab some literature or information during my rounds.

I have a far amount of time allocated to walking the floors.

Please PM me on any specific requests.

Well it hasn't been two months yet.

So lets see how much longer X360 outsells the PS3 each month.

Before November, X360 was selling around 220k a month. Lets see if X360 falls back to that trend. It really shouldn't because it should have a lot of games coming out by now, over a year after launch.

Meanwhile, Sony's game release calendar doesn't look so hot but with the EU launch, there should be some games which appeal to American and Japanese gamers. Don't be too shocked if the PS3 outsells the X360 in March for instance, unless there's some killer X360 title coming out then.

If PS3 outsold X360 in their respective first 6-7 weeks, lets see what it's like by the end of this year before we pronounce the lead insurmountable. ;)

I agree ... if the PS3 Launches in Europe in March, I would expect it to outsell Xbox 360 by a significant margin ... I hope it does really, competition keeps everyone on their toes and pushing the envelope for the benefit of consumers. ;)

*sigh*

Looks like RCA has officially bowed out of Blu-Ray's "race to the bottom" (as in pricing) and is leaving the "biz" in the hands of Sony. No news yet of Sony suckering er.. um.. welcoming in another company to fill RCAs shoes..

I don't understand why to post things that are just going to get a rise out of people? It clearly states RCA won't be supporting either format: :confused:

That's why I put the ;) at the end. It's a joke, a caustic and biting joke, but a joke none the less. Think Jay Leno ~ Clinton Jokes.. ;)

b2b

If there is anything specific anybody here is personally very interested in at CES, I may be able to grab some literature or information during my rounds.

I have a far amount of time allocated to walking the floors.

Please PM me on any specific requests.

Walking the floors at CES? or AEE? :lol: ;)

It clearly states RCA won't be supporting either format: :confused:

RCA only supported HD-DVD last year (with their Tosh A1 clone), no?

I think they have bigger problems with Thompson likely to sell, etc. They have LG to replace RCA with, though (kinda).

No, just looking for feedback on how Sarbox restricts their ability to play fast and loose with channel numbers vs. sell through numbers. I'll ask the Microsoft folks tomorrow at CES to confirm the nature of the 10.4 million number.

REVENUE. The SEC doesn't give a damn about widget counts.

Gary

More news from the "News Thread" scratch that.. the "Q&A thread"

Toshiba announces 50GB TL HD-DVD disc. I guess they didn't get the memo from Microsoft that 30GB was "good enough".. (another joke, the "memo part".. lighten up folks)
No word on if any of their three spanking new HD-DVD players will actually read the new discs... ;)

b2b

More news from the "News Thread"

Toshiba announces 50GB TL HD-DVD disc. I guess they didn't get the memo from Microsoft that 30GB was "good enough".. ;) (another joke, the "memo part".. lighten up folks)

b2b


Most likely, someone didn't wanna play with HD DVD until they got their 50GB discs.......

So if the Samsung Gen 2 player is cheaper and fully BD-Live compatiable than Gen 1 then all of a sudden this massive cost of full BD-Live support has disappeared in only the past few months? This is a tough pill to swallow.Well that is a bit of exaggeration considering it is more like 9 months between the release of the two players. Also aren't you forgetting the improvements made in HD DVD players since the HD-A1? Granted the price hasn't gone down on the newer HD DVD players but I think most of us know the reason for that.


I personally don't care that much about secondary video. What I am concerned about is whether discs with this feature will be completely unplayable on my first generation player. Are you telling me that my concern is unfounded, and that as long as I don't care about the secondary video feature, I will be able to access all other features on the disc without upgrading to a second generation or later player?All Blu-ray movies will be able to play in BD-Video 1.0 players and it is only in the matter of certain features that will differ. Note that firmware upgrades may be needed for certain discs to play, but that is true for both HD formats.


Perhaps, seeing as how Talk, Richard, wco81, xbd, and others have all igonored my resquest for some easily accessible pulbic info cor a customer to educate themselves on BR profiles, perhaps you'd be kind enough to point me to some?scaesare, only a few days ago I posted all the information I have heard about the Blu-ray profiles. Apparently you missed that so I will post it again.

This information came from various insider posts on this forum and not all of it can be proven, but personally I believe this information is accurate. There is one Blu-ray spec and four profiles in it including an audio only profile. Excluding the audio profile there are three profiles for video playback. BD-Video 1.0 is allowed until June of 2007 after which Blu-ray players must either be BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live. For the sake of comparison I will include the requirements for HD DVD as well:

HD DVD:

128 MB of persistent memory required
SD PiP decoding required
secondary audio decoding required
internet support required

BD-Video 1.0 (allowed until June of 2007):

64 KB of persistent memory required
no SD/HD PiP decoding required
no secondary audio decoding required
no internet support required

BD-Video 1.1:

256 MB of persistent memory required
SD/HD PiP support required
secondary audio decoding required
no internet support required

BD-Live:

1 GB of persistent memory required
SD/HD PiP support required
secondary audio decoding required
internet support required

Well that is a bit of exaggeration considering it is more like 9 months between the release of the two players. Also aren't you forgetting the improvements made in HD DVD players since the HD-A1? Granted the price hasn't gone down on the newer HD DVD players but I think most of us know the reason for that.


All Blu-ray movies will be able to play in BD-Video 1.0 players and it is only in the matter of certain features that will differ. Note that firmware upgrades may be needed for certain discs to play, but that is true for both HD formats.


scaesare, only a few days ago I posted all the information I have heard about the Blu-ray profiles. Apparently you missed that so I will post it again.

This information came from various insider posts on this forum and not all of it can be proven, but personally I believe this information is accurate. There is one Blu-ray spec and four profiles in it including an audio only profile. Excluding the audio profile there are three profiles for video playback. BD-Video 1.0 is allowed until June of 2007 after which Blu-ray players must either be BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live. For the sake of comparison I will include the requirements for HD DVD as well:

HD DVD:

144 MB of persistent memory required
SD PiP decoding required
secondary audio decoding required
internet support required

BD-Video 1.0 (allowed until June of 2007):

64 KB of persistent memory required
no SD/HD PiP decoding required
no secondary audio decoding required
no internet support required

BD-Video 1.1:

256 MB of persistent memory required
SD/HD PiP support required
secondary audio decoding required
no internet support required

BD-Live:

1 GB of persistent memory required
SD/HD PiP support required
secondary audio decoding required
internet support required

That is a great comparison 'chart'! Thanks! :)

I have a question though, in another thread, Talkst8(sp?) mentioned that BR actually had two types of 'storage' ... persistent storage and local storage. Are the numbers you list a combination of the two? Or is the amount of 'local storage' per profile unknown still?

Also, how does HD-DVD compare to this? It only lists 144MB of 'persistent storage'. Amirm seemed to infer that this was storage for everything (so it would be compareable to local and persistent combined on the Blu-Ray side), right?

If that is the case, it looks like BR clearly has HD-DVD beat in this aspect ... with memory costs so low, why not just make a 1G or 2G minimum requirement? Or at least allow it to be upgraded via SD/CF/MS/USB-Flash or something ... (and that goes for both camps).

Or is there something super-secret also encrypted and stored on this media? If the Network/Internet features are a key focus, I would think the more storage you have on the player, the better.

Most likely, someone didn't wanna play with HD DVD until they got their 50GB discs.......

The head scratcher is, why wasn't the offer of 45GB two years ago good enough?

They held out for 5GB?!

Toshiba should have offered 60GB and had them go HD DVD exclusive.

Gary

The head scratcher is, why wasn't the offer of 45GB two years ago good enough?

They held out for 5GB?!

Toshiba should have offered 60GB and had them go HD DVD exclusive.

Gary


Likely a sum of things:

failed promises from their current affiliate
wanting exact space on both for easy cross platform titles with the same level of content

The head scratcher is, why wasn't the offer of 45GB two years ago good enough?

They held out for 5GB?!

Toshiba should have offered 60GB and had them go HD DVD exclusive.

Gary

The next big question is this 50GB TL disc "really, really and we promise this time for true" going to get added to the HD-DVD spec ?? Remember the last go when the 45GB was floated out there, it was being sold as a "done deal" like all they had to do was sign the papers.
Or for the most capacity, just pile on more high-capacity layers. In May 2005, Toshiba announced a triple-layer HD DVD disc at Media-Tech. The HD DVD 45 has a capacity of 45 GB (12 hours). The draft specification for the format has been submitted to the DVD Forum, and should be approved "later this year," says Knox.

Knox reports that triple-layer demo material should be available in the summer, and that existing players can read the format, requiring only a firmware change. The discs could be available in 2005, he says, "although the very beginning of 2006 is more likely for volume production."
http://www.manifest-tech.com/media_dvd/dvd_hd_multi_layer.htm

Are we going to hear another years worth of rumors like we had for the 45GB just for the sake of spin ?

b2b

Likely a sum of things:

failed promises from their current affiliate
wanting exact space on both for easy cross platform titles with the same level of contentI could see them using the 50GB to say, "we have that for you". However, there are often unspoken things with feature requests. Like, "we want 50GB" when they really mean "we want 50GB with the bandwidth that would normally go with it". HD DVD and Blu-ray largely kept the same ratios between space and bandwidth that DVD had. It has been in the range of 1Mbps per 1GB for each. Going to 50GB while keeping the peak bandwidth at the same value as it is now for 30GB would mean straying from that range and ending up with a small peak bandwidth for that amount of space. Basically, only about 0.6 Mbps per 1GB. Or big-pool-but-small-hose.

If a Blu-ray exclusive studio told Toshiba that they would go neutral as soon as the 50GB discs are ready for them to release content on, I wonder how long before that studio would actually be neutral. :)

--Darin

How do they get 30 GB in the third layer?

Hey if this leads to higher bitrate movies from the neutral studios, I'm all for it.

You know, unllike the HD-DVD supporters who pooh-pooh BD-50.

It was very funny seeing HD-DVD supporters get so excited over 20 GB they say isn't necessary! :D The threads in the HD-DVD section are hilarious. But Amir says:

The format is actually 51 gigabytes (17 gigabytes/layer). And it is just at technology proposal at this point. They would need to submit it to DVD Forum for approval. Once we are through that cycle, then one can determine whether it plays or does not (DVD Forum may modify their proposal before ratification).

I could see them using the 50GB to say, "we have that for you". However, there are often unspoken things with feature requests. Like, "we want 50GB" when they really mean "we want 50GB with the bandwidth that would normally go with it". HD DVD and Blu-ray largely kept the same ratios between space and bandwidth that DVD had. It has been in the range of 1Mbps per 1GB for each. Going to 50GB while keeping the peak bandwidth at the same value as it is now for 30GB would mean straying from that range and ending up with a small peak bandwidth for that amount of space. Basically, only about 0.6 Mbps per 1GB. Or big-pool-but-small-hose.

If a Blu-ray exclusive studio told Toshiba that they would go neutral as soon as the 50GB discs are ready for them to release content on, I wonder how long before that studio would actually be neutral. :)

--Darin

Now that I thought about more about it I remember Amir's story on Disney and that it wasn't the BD50's. Ofcourse, in light of other things, they could have changed their minds. As you stated, it might be a feature request or even more so, this might be just a PR response. If there is no discussion about HD50's at the next DVD Forum meeting then you can chalk it up to PR. Ofcourse you still have the issue of player compatiability and so forth. Soon HD media will get as messy as BD-J/BD-Live. Let's hope not :)


As for the announcements, HD DVD has done a good job covering the various pricepoints, esp. if the Lite On and other Chinese come in at a low entry cost. After all, this is about going after mass consumers. The BR studios content announcements should be telling on how important it is for HD DVD to pull studio support in the near future. If the Disney list that surfaced a few days ago is it from them, then it's nothing special. I fully expect LGF to go HD DVD at some point considering the XBox Live affiliation.

Picture from LG's demonstration of HD DVD playback

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20070108/126107/Imageb.jpg

This pretty much illustrates that the popup menu shown in above picture seems some sort of OSD of the player, instead of "popup menu" rendered by HDi function. If so, it can play HD DVD title just as current DVD, switch audio and subtitle, do chapter skip and title jump, that's all.

One thing I can't imagine is, Warner titles directly go into feature without entering any sort of menu, so it's ok, but Universal titles go to Title Menu first. How the LG player will get to main feature without getting Title Menu?

Picture from LG's demonstration of HD DVD playback

This pretty much illustrates that the popup menu shown in above picture seems some sort of OSD of the player, instead of "popup menu" rendered by HDi function. If so, it can play HD DVD title just as current DVD, switch audio and subtitle, do chapter skip and title jump, that's all.

My only guess is that HD-DVD having a "standard content" authoring spec., is that they have also have a "standard content" player spec for core HDi menu functions (much like the standard menu functions for BD). And it would seem that LG is using that instead of using the "Advanced Authoring" features of HDi.

Rumor also has it the LG is a "PC" type player (not SoC) and they could be just using a PC type player SW ported to the box and letting the Broadcom chip do the decoding like a HW accelerator.

Just wild guessing, but they are pulling this off somehow, just no one seems to quite know how. ;)

b2b

Sounds like the triple layer 51GB disc is death-knell for my add-on.

Blast you, toshiba and MS, if you go through with it. I want a free replacement for my player and movies.

It was very funny seeing HD-DVD supporters get so excited over 20 GB they say isn't necessary! :D The threads in the HD-DVD section are hilarious.
hehe yeah. Here are some recent AVS soundbites (jokes follow, check your flame-throwers at the door please :) ):
(italics below mine)

1. BD50 is overkill. 30 GB is enough, you price-jacking, greedy BD corps.

2. 30Mbps is enough bitrate, you MPEG2 loving, greedy BD studios. (I have the poll to prove that this is the PoV of majority of AVSers. Makes you feel all warm inside about the future of the science of AV, doesnt it? :) )

And finally..

3. "HD-dvd has 50GB! Now, we are equal. Bitrate? What bitrate? This is all about marketing the size aginst BD50. I am sure the bitrate will come around too, somehow, maybe."

"What do you mean if it doesn't? Um, well nvm. VC1 is getting more and more efficient."

"Who Ever said 30GB was enough? Senior insiders from major corps? They probably didnt know anything about encoding. They work on VC1? Really? OK, it must have been the party line. Now, we will see if the studios stay exclusive to BD, ha."

"Yeah ok, so mayybe some 175000 players are going to go bust, but you cant make an omelette without breaking the compatibility of 175000 players and 300 titles."

"Don't be silly, this has nothing to do with greed. They are looking out for you and listening to consumer feedback. Thus the HD50."

Perhaps, but Developer Kits != Components. The RSX and Cell were ready at roughly the same time that the Xenos and Xenon Chipsets were.Your point was that PS3 titles should be as mature as Xbox 360 titles, since the components were done at the same time. It doesn't matter when the components were done if developers can't get their hands on systems to actual develop and debug with!
'Most' TV's cannot accept a 1080p SignalThis is true.
Therefore, if a game is encoded solely in 1080p, the PS3 will only output in ... yup ... 1080p -- which means 'Most' people will be able to see that content in SD 480pThis is completely false. The PS3 will absolutely output 1080p content in 1080i if the display can't support 1080p.

So they worried so much about the "inferior" format that they released an inferior product themselves with little support for interactivity or advanced audio codecs?Sorry, lacking secondary video and network support in a subset of players hardly qualifies as "little support for interactivity", and the format's liberal use of lossless audio suggests advanced audio codec support isn't a requirement to achieve top quality audio.
And while you are at it, think back a year where the ICT flag was taken out of the titles due to cries of early adopters.And think what the cries of Xbox 360 owners will be if/when the studios start using ICT, in spite of your suggestions here that it will likely never happen.
Have you consulted with any BDA company about the information you post here? Or is every answer coming from you personally and solely based on your own data?I certainly consult with contacts when I have questions, but I don't specifically identify what I intend to do with the response.
CE products have a margin for the retailer. The retailer has the choice of making money that way, or discounting heavily, in the hopes of selling you something else like extended warranty, cables, content, etc.Except if there is strong demand for a product there's no reason to give away margin you don't have to. You have to sell an awful lot of cables and content to make up for the $150 of pure margin you're slicing out of your selling price. How often do you see iPod's discounted? Virtually never, unless it's an old model which has been replaced by a newer, probably cheaper version.
Given all of this, your statement makes no sense. The fact that there is a discount, shows that there is good margin for the retailer and they are not being asked to subsidize the market.No, Toshiba has been doing a fine job of the subsidization! But my point stands. A product with healthy demand is seldom discounted (especially by 25% or more within days of product launch) because there's very little reason to. It's a new product, there are many buyers who will pay full price because it's the next greatest thing.
But maybe you can explain why Samsung dropped its MSRP so much. That would indicate slow sales.Sure, because a)it was the first Blu-ray player and actually has other vendors it's competing with (unlike Toshiba), and b)a new player is imminent so it makes sense to clear the shelves of the old one. If your theory is correct, why aren't other Blu-ray players routinely being discounted to the same extent as the Toshiba HD DVD players, especially if sales are as bad as you've made them out to be?
I see no data presented by paidgeek to back his claim that BD-50 yields and cost will be so attractive as to become the norm, rather than exception. No breakthroughs, no new news, no nothing. Just that they have a relationship with other replicators. Well, so do we. He also provided no personal data of what investigations he has done to arrive at that conclusion. So my stance remains that he is repeating the company line.You clearly missed his implication. He's saying you can't adjust product mix (BD25 vs BD50) without significant advance planning. That implies they are already well into the process of converting production lines from BD25 to BD50, which implies the people who actually spend the money believe the figures paidgeek has relayed. And those people are clearly in a better position than you to forecast what the product mix will be.

- Talk

As a PS3 owner and a A1 and add on owner will all 3 work in the future with every movie that is now released and for all future releases?

And does the answer hold true for every player already released for both formats?

Is it only extras that are in question or does it also include the movie itself?

From what I gather from Steve's posts is that for blu ray players already out on the market this may not be true. Talk, can you answer my questions (wrt blu ray) with a straight yes or no answer (where applicable)?I can't answer with a straight "yes or no", because you're asking for an absolute (all future releases). I certainly expect that every future title will at a minimum allow the movie to play on all current and future players, bugs notwithstanding.

I have a question though, in another thread, Talkst8(sp?) mentioned that BR actually had two types of 'storage' ... persistent storage and local storage. Are the numbers you list a combination of the two? Or is the amount of 'local storage' per profile unknown still?I believe there are two types of storage used for Blu-ray though I don't know what they are called.


Also, how does HD-DVD compare to this? It only lists 144MB of 'persistent storage'. Amirm seemed to infer that this was storage for everything (so it would be compareable to local and persistent combined on the Blu-Ray side), right?I believe that is correct since I have head that HD DVD uses one type of storage for everything.


If that is the case, it looks like BR clearly has HD-DVD beat in this aspect ... with memory costs so low, why not just make a 1G or 2G minimum requirement?Both HD formats are designed to become mass market so I don't think either side wanted to require a huge amount of persistent storage.


This pretty much illustrates that the popup menu shown in above picture seems some sort of OSD of the player, instead of "popup menu" rendered by HDi function. If so, it can play HD DVD title just as current DVD, switch audio and subtitle, do chapter skip and title jump, that's all.If this turns out to be how the player works with HD DVD that would be pretty surprising. What is even more surprising though is how many posters who were previously praising LG for making a universal player are now attacking them over this.

you have "accidentally" glazed over the majority of the TVs that accpet 1080i, but not 1080p. And the sets that accept 1080i mostly deinterlace them to 1080p, before display at their native panel, which could be 720p, 768p, 1080p or a host of resolutions.

And finally, re: "though obviously it will be interlaced if the TV can't accpet 1080p", there are virtually Zero set on the market today that will display interlaced 1080i output, since they are mostly based on progressive display mechanisms today.Once again, everything you're posting here is essentially meaningless. My statement was that the PS3 will work perfectly well with the broad majority of HDTV's. Contrary to your information, the PS3 will happily output 1080p as 1080i to accomodate sets which don't accept 1080p input (which is most TV's today). The fact that most sets use progressive displays is completely irrelevant to this conversation.

To make certain we understand each other, are you claiming that if I attach a PS3 to my HDTV which accepts 720p and 1080i inputs (only), when I play 1080p content (i.e. NBA2K) it's going to output at 480p? If you answer "yes", you're clearly wrong and have far too little knowledge about the PS3 to post the things you do. If you answer "no" then the paragraph you posted above is a bunch of smoke and mirrors to try to hide the fact that you, once again, posted wrong facts.

It rather worrisome that no one in the Bluray camp realizes that putting it IN THE MANUAL is a MAJOR legal problem for them, as this is too late, since the customer has already bought the player and most may never read the manual anyway. This is almost a case-model for deceptive marketing, IMHO, given how much publicity and hype the BDA gang have given these features to encourage sales.
Uh, rdjam, it was an HD DVD manual (the HD-A1) he quoted from!!!

Is that the sound of you eating your words I hear?

Courtesy of our dvdtalk friends:

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/images/smilies/footinmouth.gif

Uh, rdjam, it was [b]an HD DVD[/a] manual (the HD-A1) he quoted from!!!

Is that the sound of you eating your words I hear?
oh, I say. Nice

Talk, its definitely sounds like it but its hard to make out clearly due to the laughter from the BD supporters.

I am a bad bad boy

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5287/4484pz1.jpg

Universal, Toshiba, Microsoft and... Microsoft! Hmm...

Man, that Kevin Collins guy sure is big! That, coupled with his casual clothing and clenched fist, could make you think he's not a speaker, but a bodyguard! :D

Looks like Liongate is in for HD DVD. They just announced that Xbox live will offer Liongate films for download. HD DVD can't be far behind!Sorry, your first sentence can no more be inferred from your second sentence than can Sony releasing an HD DVD player because they sell PC's with Microsoft's Vista running on them.

I understand the HD DVD crowd is desperate to get another neutral studio, but it really looks like this won't be the year!

I don't understand why to post things that are just going to get a rise out of people? It clearly states RCA won't be supporting either formatYes, but they never released a Blu-ray player to begin with, so it's only a net loss for the HD DVD crowd anticipating a 2G player from them.

More news from the "News Thread" scratch that.. the "Q&A thread"

Toshiba announces 50GB TL HD-DVD disc. I guess they didn't get the memo from Microsoft that 30GB was "good enough".. (another joke, the "memo part".. lighten up folks)
No word on if any of their three spanking new HD-DVD players will actually read the new discs... ;)

b2b
I guess we should file this under "they fud'ing said it couldn't be done!" :p

The BR fans are going to really pissed off at this and make lots of negative attacks now :D

Imagine - HD DVD at 51 gigs is now bigger then Bluray!

Cue: lots of BR talk about bandwidth, but we all know that VC1 has PLENTY more bandwidth than it needs already, and HD DVD isn't going to be using much Mpeg2, which is the ONLY codec that needs and enormous amount of bandwidth.

This is great!

So now HD-DVD is in the exact same place with claims of 51GB support as Blu-ray is with 100GB support - claims to have been demonstrated in the lab, but not submitted for specification and no indication as to commercial feasibility nor backwards compatibility. Oh, except Blu-ray was there over a year earlier.

I have a question though, in another thread, Talkst8(sp?) mentioned that BR actually had two types of 'storage' ... persistent storage and local storage. Are the numbers you list a combination of the two? Or is the amount of 'local storage' per profile unknown still?The numbers Richard is posting are for local storage (i.e. A/V downloads).
Also, how does HD-DVD compare to this? It only lists 144MB of 'persistent storage'. Amirm seemed to infer that this was storage for everything (so it would be compareable to local and persistent combined on the Blu-Ray side), right?Correct.
If that is the case, it looks like BR clearly has HD-DVD beat in this aspect ...Correct.

Yup, well said. Kudos to Universal. If anyone here has any inside source in Universal studios, please convey the heartfelt gratitude of HD-loving AVSers for their encodings (I hope I can presume that we appreciate universal's work).

They kicked sony studios' butt PQ-wise and contributed to the rapidity of the improvement in PQ. As a fan of high def and of BD, I thank them for that. I also thank MS for a great job with the VC1 encodings on universal titles.

Absolutely agree.

Uh, rdjam, it was an HD DVD manual (the HD-A1) he quoted from!!!

Is that the sound of you eating your words I hear?
Yes, t8lk, I can read.

The point is that he was attempting to justify the Bluray team's strategy by referring to the discalimer in the HD DVD manual.

Yet, HD DVD players are not leaving any 1st gen users behind.

Bluray, however, has been less than forthcoming about the capabilities of it's first gen players and has hyped-up the BD-Video 1.1 features and BD-Live 2.0 features without letting buyuers know that the 1st gen players could do NEITHER.

This is tantamount to decepetive marketing and using a quote from an HD DVD manual to "justify" these actions is both irrelevant and ludicrous.

Maybe you disagree with that - which wouldn't surprise me I guess...

So now HD-DVD is in the exact same place with claims of 51GB support as Blu-ray is with 100GB support - claims to have been demonstrated in the lab, but not submitted for specification and no indication as to commercial feasibility nor backwards compatibility. Oh, except Blu-ray was there over a year earlier.
Its already been acknowledged that Bluray BD-ROM player will never play 100 Gig discs. These will effectively only work with new BD-R drives in the future, should the 100 gig disc be succesfully completed.

Much different to the 51 Gig HD DVD disc, where it is clear that Toshiba intends to get it in the player spec as a supported BD-ROM...

Huh?

Where did I question the 10 million number?

Read carefully, I was pointing out that Sony may have shipped more PS3s in the first 6-7 weeks (from middle of November to end of the year) than MS shipped X360s in its first 6-7 weeks (from when it launched last year to the end of 2005).

At a higher price, despite heavy competition from the X360 this year and the Wii.

Well I was trying to read carfully, you had said:

For perspective, the 1 million in NA is more than the number of PS1 or PS2 shipped in a comparable amount of time.

It's also more than the number of X360s shipped in NA last year.

The 1.5 million may also end up being more than the number of X360s shipped globally last year. (emphasis mine)

For some reason you changed from stating "in a comparable amount of time" to "last year".

I see what you were trying to say now. Thanks.

scaesare, only a few days ago I posted all the information I have heard about the Blu-ray profiles. Apparently you missed that so I will post it again.

This information came from various insider posts on this forum and not all of it can be proven, but personally I believe this information is accurate. There is one Blu-ray spec and four profiles in it including an audio only profile. Excluding the audio profile there are three profiles for video playback. BD-Video 1.0 is allowed until June of 2007 after which Blu-ray players must either be BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live. For the sake of comparison I will include the requirements for HD DVD as well:

HD DVD:

144 MB of persistent memory required
SD PiP decoding required
secondary audio decoding required
internet support required

BD-Video 1.0 (allowed until June of 2007):

64 KB of persistent memory required
no SD/HD PiP decoding required
no secondary audio decoding required
no internet support required

BD-Video 1.1:

256 MB of persistent memory required
SD/HD PiP support required
secondary audio decoding required
no internet support required

BD-Live:

1 GB of persistent memory required
SD/HD PiP support required
secondary audio decoding required
internet support required

So that's your "easily accessible public info" (my exact request) that a potential consumer can use to educate themselves (as Talk has suggested they should do)?

They need to stumble accross your post in this forum?

You've made my point better than I could ever have, Richard. Thank you.

alex made an informative post in the news thread that i think is worth posting here:

From a special CES CED:

Surprising feature shortcuts mark LG’s much-heralded industry-first dual-format Blu-ray/HD DVD player, including its inability to support HD DVD’s iHD interactivity, senior executives told a pre-CES news conference here Sun. Moreover, its dual-format PC drive supports the full suite of Blu-ray read-write functionality, but only ROM playback for HD DVD, the executives said.

It takes the BH100 about 30 sec. to load an HD DVD movie, about 25 sec. for a Blu-ray disc. Lee said for Blu-ray that’s the fastest in the industry.

The BH100 has an HDMI 1.2 output but no iHD interactivity for HD DVD, though it offers full BD-Java interactivity. Lee said that’s because the BH100 originally was designed as LG’s first Blu-ray player. The HD DVD functionality was added when LG made the decision to go forward with a dual-format product...Warner officials attended the presentation but didn’t speak. They told us they were assured by LG that future dual-format players due out this year would have full iHD interactivity...Lee told us LG will market additional dual-format players this year.

Key to the dual-format products is an optical pickup designed by LG and built by its Hitachi-LG Data Storage joint venture...It has 2 laser diodes -- one blue for Blu-ray and HD DVD, the other red for DVD playback. The BH100 doesn’t support audio CD playback...The player uses a Broadcom all-format decoder that will be announced at CES today (Mon.), Lee said.

By using the now-superceded HDMI 1.2, the player can’t pass lossless Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master....Kim assured us that “Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master are in the player.”

Lee and other LG executives denied the features were left out to get the price of the deck down to $1,199. Executives at LG hq in Seoul in Oct. had discussed a $1,500 price point (CED Nov 3 p4). But Lee told us the $1,199 price had been established quite some time ago.

Best Buy and Circuit City are among the retailers that have signed up for the product.

==================

Microsoft has been making as many Xbox 360 HD DVD drives as it “possibly can,” but supplies continue to fall short of demand, Robbie Bach, pres.- Entertainment & Devices Div., said at the annual Bill Gates pre-CES keynote session here Sun. Microsoft shipped 10.4 million Xbox 360s worldwide through Dec. 31 -- half a million better than its prediction, Bach said.

==================

Pioneer added to its Blu-ray offerings with a PC drive that plays but doesn’t record. The BDC-202 is aimed to expand the base for Blu-ray movie playback and PCs, and will be distributed to PC OEMs....the drive records all blank DVD formats. Price wasn’t disclosed.

Yes, t8lk, I can read.

The point is that he was attempting to justify the Bluray team's strategy by referring to the discalimer in the HD DVD manual.

Yet, HD DVD players are not leaving any 1st gen users behind.

Bluray, however, has been less than forthcoming about the capabilities of it's first gen players and has hyped-up the BD-Video 1.1 features and BD-Live 2.0 features without letting buyuers know that the 1st gen players could do NEITHER.

This is tantamount to decepetive marketing and using a quote from an HD DVD manual to "justify" these actions is both irrelevant and ludicrous.

Maybe you disagree with that - which wouldn't surprise me I guess...


Its already been acknowledged that Bluray BD-ROM player will never play 100 Gig discs. These will effectively only work with new BD-R drives in the future, should the 100 gig disc be succesfully completed.

Much different to the 51 Gig HD DVD disc, where it is clear that Toshiba intends to get it in the player spec as a supported BD-ROM...

Now that's an interesting idea... Toshiba getting the BDA to ratify the new 51GB HD-DVD disc as a "BD-ROM" :D Small case of the "brain farts".. again... ??? ;)

But on to other rebuttal... It is simpler to reply using my earlier post to describe the situation with the "new & improved TL HD-DVD disc"
The next big question is this 50GB TL disc "really, really and we promise this time for true" going to get added to the HD-DVD spec ?? Remember the last go when the 45GB was floated out there, it was being sold as a "done deal" like all they had to do was sign the papers.

Or for the most capacity, just pile on more high-capacity layers. In May 2005, Toshiba announced a triple-layer HD DVD disc at Media-Tech. The HD DVD 45 has a capacity of 45 GB (12 hours). The draft specification for the format has been submitted to the DVD Forum, and should be approved "later this year," says Knox.

Knox reports that triple-layer demo material should be available in the summer, and that existing players can read the format, requiring only a firmware change. The discs could be available in 2005, he says, "although the very beginning of 2006 is more likely for volume production."

http://www.manifest-tech.com/media_...multi_layer.htm

Are we going to hear another years worth of rumors like we had for the 45GB just for the sake of spin ?

b2b

Just like last year, Toshiba has delivered a punch to BD that few expected. The 51GB TL will erase an important marketing point off BD list of "technically superiority". Along with the likely increase in peak BW, I wonder what shape the format arguments will take going forward ...

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5287/4484pz1.jpg

Universal, Toshiba, Microsoft and... Microsoft! Hmm...

Man, that Kevin Collins guy sure is big! That, coupled with his casual clothing and clenched fist, could make you think he's not a speaker, but a bodyguard! :D

Maybe the clinched fist was because of this?

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/360/microsoft-rep-says-hddvd-the-next-betamax-226205.php

ROFL. I wonder if those guys still work there?

Just like last year, Toshiba has delivered a punch to BD that few expected. The 51GB TL will erase an important marketing point off BD list of "technically superiority". Along with the likely increase in peak BW, I wonder what shape the format arguments will take going forward ...

Clara Peller called...."Where's the beef?" :)

Without the addition of a major studio very soon this kind of change may come too late.

Just like last year, Toshiba has delivered a punch to BD that few expected. The 51GB TL will erase an important marketing point off BD list of "technically superiority". Along with the likely increase in peak BW, I wonder what shape the format arguments will take going forward ...

And just like the 45GB disc back in May 2005 it's all "science fiction" until you see them on the store shelves... ;)

Plus it would be nice to have players to read them...

b2b

Tis gonna be a long week.... lol

It's so funny how this new TL HD-DVD, which even Amir himself admitted is "just a technology proposal at this point" (in the insiders thread), suddenly changes the tune of rdjam et al. For months and months they said it only matters what the formats deliver NOW or TODAY instead of BD's "promises" for the future... now that HD-DVD actually has the faintest of "promises" to maybe get better, it's the second coming of their format. :rolleyes:

Btw. all the "all features in all HD-DVD players from day one" propaganda seems so utterly dishonest/foolish now, don't you think? Amir admits (also in the insiders thread) that he doesn't have a clue whether or not current players will be able to play those "science fiction" discs... :)

Maybe the clinched fist was because of this?

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/360/microsoft-rep-says-hddvd-the-next-betamax-226205.php

ROFL. I wonder if those guys still work there?

If you read it correctly, he's referring to the PS3, where the blur-ray drive is included and drives up the price by $200. :D

If you read it correctly, he's referring to the PS3, where the blur-ray drive is included and drives up the price by $200. :D

Here's the relevant portion of the article, where M$ rep is quoted:

"When asked whether there'd be a future 360 with an internal HD-DVD drive, one of the reps, Scott Hensen, had this to say:

"We don't want to charge customers $200 extra for something that may be the next Betamax." "

:eek:

Seems pretty clear to me ...

And just like the 45GB disc back in May 2005 it's all "science fiction" until you see them on the store shelves... ;)

Plus it would be nice to have players to read them...

b2b

Oh, do you plan on buying a player anytime this year? :)

Anyway, The biggest news so far, imo, is the duel format player and the additional CE support for HD DVD. Both sides claimed to have lots of new movies coming out, so that was a wash pr wise. The Fox announcement would have been bigger news if they hadn't screwed it up by chart problems. It's hard to figure out how much of that is real and how much is spin. The 50G makes a little press, but like you stated, we heard this tune before with TL45's.

So far, HD DVD has the "buzz" but only by a bit. The biggest news maybe the announcement that hasn't happened. No studio shift announced yet. That means the status quo is maintained - but HD DVD needs more than to maintain the status quo in order to survive.

Yes, but they never released a Blu-ray player to begin with, so it's only a net loss for the HD DVD crowd anticipating a 2G player from them.

LOL, this is really a comical state of affairs...

when rca shipped their hd dvd player it wasn't counted by the bd evangelists (i don't say supporter as i've decided to use that term only for those that own a bd player or ps3) as a player since it was only a rebadge....


now that they aren't going to rebadge the next gen it is being counted as a loss LOL

So far, HD DVD has the "buzz" but only by a bit. The biggest news maybe the announcement that hasn't happened. No studio shift announced yet. That means the status quo is maintained - but HD DVD needs more than to maintain the status quo in order to survive.

It will be rather dissapointing for me if more studio support is not announced.

Here's the relevant portion of the article, where M$ rep is quoted:

"When asked whether there'd be a future 360 with an internal HD-DVD drive, one of the reps, Scott Hensen, had this to say:

"We don't want to charge customers $200 extra for something that may be the next Betamax." "

:eek:

Seems pretty clear to me ...If he is saying the BD drive is currently $200, it means $500 BD players would be very easy to achieve.

Universal, Toshiba, Microsoft and... Microsoft! Hmm...

Man, that Kevin Collins guy sure is big! That, coupled with his casual clothing and clenched fist, could make you think he's not a speaker, but a bodyguard! :D

Maybe he just got done spending a little time on the BD side of the hall making Blu-Ray supporters an "offer they couldn't refuse" on a new HD-DVD player... :D

b2b

If this turns out to be how the player works with HD DVD that would be pretty surprising. What is even more surprising though is how many posters who were previously praising LG for making a universal player are now attacking them over this.Maybe LG cut a deal to implement the upcoming "simple player" profile of the spec?

Maybe he just got done spending a little time on the BD side of the hall making Blu-Ray supporters an "offer they couldn't refuse" on a new HD-DVD player... :D Dressing like that, plus the comments here on AVS, show that Microsoft has now become the arrogant one. :)

For the first time ever I see the number one Blu-ray title with better sales ratings then the number one HD DVD movie on the DVDWars site

The Prestige at 285 sales ranking

Format Neutral Thread: a Haven from the craziness (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9394211&&#post9394211)

Maybe LG cut a deal to implement the upcoming "simple player" profile of the spec?

Hmm.. What would that be.. "Perfomance Level 0" ??? ;)

b2b

Here's the relevant portion of the article, where M$ rep is quoted:

"When asked whether there'd be a future 360 with an internal HD-DVD drive, one of the reps, Scott Hensen, had this to say:

"We don't want to charge customers $200 extra for something that may be the next Betamax." "

:eek:

Seems pretty clear to me ...
Precisely--just like the PS3, the "next Betamax."

Your point was that PS3 titles should be as mature as Xbox 360 titles, since the components were done at the same time. It doesn't matter when the components were done if developers can't get their hands on systems to actual develop and debug with!


Actually, my point was that if Sony wouldn't have included BR in every PS3, developers would have been able to get their hands on kits earlier since all the other components appeared to be ready at the same time Xenos and Xenon where. Thereby, the GPU and Processor in the PS3 aren't really a year newer. It's year old hardware in a new shiny box. ;)


This is completely false. The PS3 will absolutely output 1080p content in 1080i if the display can't support 1080p.

Interesting ... I wasn't aware ... so it does have the capability to convert something from progressive to interlaced, but not re-scale the actual # of pixels?

Actually, my point was that if Sony wouldn't have included BR in every PS3, developers would have been able to get their hands on kits earlier since all the other components appeared to be ready at the same time Xenos and Xenon where. Thereby, the GPU and Processor in the PS3 aren't really a year newer. It's year old hardware in a new shiny box. ;)

PS3 devs got development kits with Cell and RSX well before they got dev kits with Blu-ray drives, so in that sense PS3 development wasn't held back by Blu-ray's inclusion.

The numbers Richard is posting are for local storage (i.e. A/V downloads).


Can you share what the numbers are, per profile, for persistent storage then?

Thanks in advance!

Just like last year, Toshiba has delivered a punch to BD that few expected. The 51GB TL will erase an important marketing point off BD list of "technically superiority". Along with the likely increase in peak BW, I wonder what shape the format arguments will take going forward ...

Yes, but that's only if it actually comes to pass. I asked earlier about TL (a few days ago) and it seems that was annouced back in 2005 but nothing came of it.

Also, while this is 'nice' and all from a marketing standpoint, from the new and upcoming releases, there are a lot of titles I'm interested in on the BR side. The fact that there haven't been any new studios going Neutral from the BR side doesn't bode well for HD-DVD. No one is going to buy players if there is no content for them ... and if no one buys players, no one is going to make content for them.

It appears to me that BR has bought enough time and created enough 'spin' and 'promises' (BD-1.1 by June 2007 and approx 6 million players by that time) to keep the studios in their corner.

Similar to the way Sony kept many on the fence for the PS3 with their annoucements of Spring 2006, Summer 2006, Fall 2006, etc for their worldwide launch.

It sucks to say, but I guess that kind of marketing works. *shrug*

Here's the relevant portion of the article, where M$ rep is quoted:

"When asked whether there'd be a future 360 with an internal HD-DVD drive, one of the reps, Scott Hensen, had this to say:

"We don't want to charge customers $200 extra for something that may be the next Betamax." "

Seems pretty clear to me ...
I understand how it could be read that way, but he really was drawing a contrast between what Sony did, which was "charge customers $200 extra for something that may be the next Betamax" by including BD in PS3.

Also, while this is 'nice' and all from a marketing standpoint, from the new and upcoming releases, there are a lot of titles I'm interested in on the BR side. The fact that there haven't been any new studios going Neutral from the BR side doesn't bode well for HD-DVD. No one is going to buy players if there is no content for them ... and if no one buys players, no one is going to make content for them.

BD just launched. IF studios were considering going neutral, it's waaay too early for studios to officially flip to neutral in the middle of a war don't you think? Any agreements or understanding with studios are likely in effect at least this long.

On 'the war' status some big unanswered questions remain.

When PS3 numbers get to the levels promised (multiple millions) and the big BD exlcusive titles release will the bd sales blow hd-dvd away? PS3 sales have been the BD savior so far even if below expectations, no reason they won't continue to boost the format.

Will hd-dvd players end up at lower mass market levels long before BD thanks to Chinese and the 360? Hd-dvd could get to the multiple millions that way. Not hard to imagine the 360 hd-dvd drive at $149.99 and $99.99 eventually but will MS care to push that hard? Will studios be able to take some easy money later copying BD25's to HD30's and BD50's to HD51's?

Too soon to call.

Well it looks like my prediction about MS going to China and finding someone to build MS-DVD players has come true. J/K (see article for who that is) will be building HD-DVD players using WinCE and Broadcom chips. No doubt they will get plenty of help ($$) from MS for Xbox integration and whatnot...

The other thing that is kind of shocking is using the "thedvdwars" Amazon data as a talking point in the PR... that is seriously lame.. :eek:
HD DVD movies have received reviewers' top ratings among high-definition media, and consistently outsell and outrank similar titles of competing optical disc formats.*

* Source: http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm , tracking format sales based on Amazon.com data.

http://www5.sys-con.com/read/319968.htm

b2b

Format Neutral Thread: a Haven from the craziness (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9394211&&#post9394211)

Format neutrality is for the pusillanimous.

And the Swiss (who incidentally laundered the loot the Nazis plundered).

All it does is help prolong the war.

The format neutral thread is full of people who've shelled out big $$$ for two (or more!) players and don't mind spending more $$$ on movies they may eventually have to replace. Then, they sit around, congratulate themselves on how special and "fair" they are and wonder why everyone else isn't doing the same.

The other thing that is kind of shocking is using the "thedvdwars" Amazon data as a talking point in the PR... that is seriously lame..Oh wow that is so sad and desperate. :D

From the news thread:
Juicy tidbits from the BDA press conference:
Of the 20 top-grossing DVD's, 18 are from studios supporting Blu-ray (fourteen exclusively Blu-ray), four are from studios supporting HD DVD (one exclusively HD DVD), and one from an undeclared studio (Dreamworks)
Sony released results of a survey of over 10,000 PS3 buyers. 80% said they plan to watch Blu-ray movies on the PS3, and 75% will use the PS3 as "a primary video player"
According to Fox, the week of 12/24 Blu-ray disc sales (all studios) surpassed HD DVD sales by 21%. They expect weekly Blu-ray disc sales to be triple HD DVD by the end of 2007.
According to Sony, there has been a 700% rise in Blu-ray disc sales since mid-November.
According to Disney, they are thrilled with the results they are seeing with their BD-J development. Their first BD-J title will be The Guardian, released this month.
Sony is using AVC on Open Season and one other title which I don't recall. Open Season (due this month) will also be BD-J (Sony's first).

So many times I heard people, (including insiders,) claim that no one would make an HD DVD player because Toshiba undercut them in price. Are we now finally able to admit that was nothing but spreading FUD, or does someone want one last kick at the can? :p

According to Fox, the week of 12/24 Blu-ray disc sales (all studios) surpassed HD DVD sales by 21%. They expect weekly Blu-ray disc sales to be triple HD DVD by the end of 2007.

Whats next. On 2/12 between the hours of 12:24 and 12:32 BD sales topped HD DVD sales by 18% ?! ;)

And the Swiss (who incidentally laundered the loot the Nazis plundered).

Not to forget all the drug / bribe money they still have ....

So many times I heard people, (including insiders,) claim that no one would make an HD DVD player because Toshiba undercut them in price. Are we now finally able to admit that was nothing but spreading FUD, or does someone want one last kick at the can? :pI still don't see any tier one vendors making HD DVD players. I see LG making 3/4 of an HD DVD player (bolted on to a complete Blu-ray player), though.

I still don't see any tier one vendors making HD DVD players. I see LG making 3/4 of an HD DVD player (bolted on to a complete Blu-ray player), though.

And why would they do that if bluray dominance was so assured?

Whats next. On 2/12 between the hours of 12:24 and 12:32 BD sales topped HD DVD sales by 18% ?! ;)Sorry, Nataraj, you can belittle the facts all you want, but the fact Blu-ray discs are now outselling HD-DVD discs (from a source significantly more credible than thedvdwars) is a significant inflection point in HD-DVD's inevitable format demise. In case you missed it, take a look at the chart (http://mms.businesswire.com/bwapps/mediaserver/ViewMedia?mgid=84851&vid=5).

Just like last year, Toshiba has delivered a punch to BD that few expected. The 51GB TL will erase an important marketing point off BD list of "technically superiority". Along with the likely increase in peak BW, I wonder what shape the format arguments will take going forward ...Sounds to me like the shape of the format arguments will be all the HD DVD owners complaining about a new spec (which only brings parity with Blu-ray) that their legacy players can't support.

The point is that he was attempting to justify the Bluray team's strategy by referring to the discalimer in the HD DVD manual.Wow, you're really spinning on this one! Please stop, I'm getting dizzy!
Its already been acknowledged that Bluray BD-ROM player will never play 100 Gig discs. These will effectively only work with new BD-R drives in the future, should the 100 gig disc be succesfully completed.

Much different to the 51 Gig HD DVD disc, where it is clear that Toshiba intends to get it in the player spec as a supported BD-ROM...This is clear from where? You think that a new format, which not only adds a nother layer but also packs the bits tighter and requires a 50% increase in data rate is going to work on legacy drives? How about a bet. If the new format (assuming it works and ever actually gets specified) works on legacy drives, I'll leave here forever. If it doesn't, you leave here forever. Deal?

By the way, do you plan to update your HDNot page on the impact of the universal player to note how LG's player doesn't support HDi, and so it has the potentially to completely crater HD DVD's stance regarding minimum required capabilities? And how it would appear to open the door to low-cost Chinese manufacturers (those which the HD DVD camp is apparently courting very aggressively) to do the same thing, except maybe they'll leave out other features which add to much to the cost?

And why would they do that if bluray dominance was so assured?That's an easy one. It differentiates their offering in the market from all the other Blu-ray players. It provides a great deal of press (free advertising). And, perhaps their real motivation, it provides the perfect player for all the HD DVD owners to buy as they migrate to Blu-ray but still want to play their existing HD DVD library.

I still don't see any tier one vendors making HD DVD players. I see LG making 3/4 of an HD DVD player (bolted on to a complete Blu-ray player), though.

So you do want one more kick at the can then :)

I guess If your definition of "tier one vendors" is "companies with strong positions in BD's patent pool," then you are correct. But just about any other definition fails. :p

But all of that is irrelevant. Meridian and Onkyo weren't afraid to enter the HD DVD market and compete with Toshiba. Unless you have an explaination why they are exceptions to your theory, then they prove your theory wrong. (Your theory being that the lower priced Toshiba's would keep people from making HD DVD players.) I would add, the PS3 pricing should also prove this wrong. There are really a lot of different ways to look at it, but all of them come down to you being wrong. And spreading Fud. :) Please don't lose any more credability defending the "Toshiba's price will keep other CE makers out" theory in the face of all this evidence.

The format neutral thread is full of people who've shelled out big $$$ for two (or more!) players and don't mind spending more $$$ on movies they may eventually have to replace. Then, they sit around, congratulate themselves on how special and "fair" they are and wonder why everyone else isn't doing the same.

I spent less on my Xa1 and PS3 than some of the better BD players. With the advent of dual format players, it is likely that more will follow. In the end, it seems the format war will go on for at least 2 years. To me, this means that dual format players will continue and legacy support will continue if there is an eventual loser. By that time, the hardware will be cheap so keeping support for legacy software will be cheap and easy. Just as DVD players today support many formats most of us do not use.

I don't see myself as special or fair....just doing what bennefits me the most, which is the ability to buy whatever HD movie I want. What is that so wrong? Simply taking sides...given that there will be division....will NOT end the format war any faster. I don't fault anyone for sticking with one or neither format....that's a personal choice. But there is no reason to bash those who do.

Well it looks like my prediction about MS going to China and finding someone to build MS-DVD players has come true. J/K (see article for who that is) will be building HD-DVD players using WinCE and Broadcom chips. No doubt they will get plenty of help ($$) from MS for Xbox integration and whatnot...

The other thing that is kind of shocking is using the "thedvdwars" Amazon data as a talking point in the PR... that is seriously lame.. :eek:

http://www5.sys-con.com/read/319968.htm
I found it interesting that in Toshiba's press release they listed the different players (including the XBOX360 add-on) and said this got them to more than 175,000 players, while this thing states:
With several hundred thousand HD DVD players in homes ...
Also, I find it interesting that they reference thedvdwars.com site and the first graphic on there is this one:
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-recent30.jpg

Maybe they hope that people won't actually check the reference. Although that should update over time, so maybe the trend won't look so bad for HD DVD after I post this (in the future).

--Darin

So that's your "easily accessible public info" (my exact request) that a potential consumer can use to educate themselves (as Talk has suggested they should do)?scaesare, you are complaining to the wrong person and if I knew of such public info I would be happy to provide a link to it.


You've made my point better than I could ever have, Richard. Thank you.I certainly wouldn't mind there being more public info on the Blu-ray player profiles, but I dislike the fact that your posts always seem to be attacks against Blu-ray.


Just like last year, Toshiba has delivered a punch to BD that few expected. The 51GB TL will erase an important marketing point off BD list of "technically superiority". Along with the likely increase in peak BW, I wonder what shape the format arguments will take going forward ...I would love it if it was really that easy, but does anyone know whether this proposal will even be accepted by the DVD Forum? Does anyone know if any of the HD DVD players will be capable of playing TL discs? There are a lot of questions that need to be answered about this.


From the news thread:Based on that information it looks like 2007 will be a very good year for Blu-ray.


So many times I heard people, (including insiders,) claim that no one would make an HD DVD player because Toshiba undercut them in price. Are we now finally able to admit that was nothing but spreading FUD, or does someone want one last kick at the can?Well personally I never said that but how many HD DVD players under $1000 are being released that aren't made by Toshiba? If the answer is none what do you think that tells us?

Interesting ... I wasn't aware ... so it does have the capability to convert something from progressive to interlacedYes, this is relatively trivial.
but not re-scale the actual # of pixels?Unclear. It's probably a question of how well Sony can optimize routines for up/downscaling such that the PS3 CPU/GPU architecture can support it while doing the other things it has to do. Published reports indicate DVD upscaling is coming, so perhaps Blu-ray downscaling isn't out of the question.
Can you share what the numbers are, per profile, for persistent storage then?Amir has claimed that 64K of persistent memory is mandated (bear in mind persistent memory on Blu-ray is intended for very small things, like storing the timecode a movie was stopped at for later restart). Note that I believe local storage can also be used for persistent storage; if this is the case, the minimum persistent storage requirement could be irrelevant.

Wow, you must be following a different CES than I am.
Anyway, The biggest news so far, imo, is the duel format player and the additional CE support for HD DVD.Except that by leaving out support for HDi it's a huge negative for the HD DVD camp. It gives studios another reason to prefer Blu-ray over HD-DVD, and it calls into question whether HD DVD has any teeth in enforcing minimum capabilities.
Both sides claimed to have lots of new movies coming out, so that was a wash pr wise.Nice vague number. How many of these are exclusive? How many are from major studios? I don't think the impact of a Turkish version of "Deuce Bigalow" really compares with "Pirates of the Caribbean". The fact that only four of 2006's 20 highest grossing DVD's are even conceivably going to be available on HD DVD while 18 of them come from Blu-ray-supportive studios ought to be of much greater concern to you.
The Fox announcement would have been bigger news if they hadn't screwed it up by chart problems.Huh? It looks pretty clear to me.
The biggest news maybe the announcement that hasn't happened. No studio shift announced yet.What do you think would have to happen now for a new major studio to announce HD DVD support? CES is clearly the best opportunity, and that's gone (barring a massive surprise in the next two days). Blu-ray momentum is clearly strong, while the 175K players HD DVD admits to isn't particularly impressive. With the holidays over there isn't much of a market driver to propel HD DVD player sales. And when we see the inevitable price slash by Toshiba in a few months you should recognize it for what it is - a desparate last gasp Hail Mary pass, which will miss its mark by a mile.

It's over, Johnny.

I found it interesting that in Toshiba's press release they listed the different players (including the XBOX360 add-on) and said this got them to more than 175,000 players, while this thing states "With several hundred thousand HD DVD players in homes ..."I noticed this as well. Will those of you who have accused the BDA of misleading or slimy tactics have the integrity to acknowledge that this is equally deceptive?

I guess If your definition of "tier one vendors" is "companies with strong positions in BD's patent pool," then you are correct. But just about any other definition fails.By what token do you consider Onkyo and Meridian tier one vendors? They may produce fine equipment, but they have nowhere near the same brand recognition, retail presence, or ability to influence a market that Sony, Panasonic, Sharp, Samsung, Pioneer, Philips, or Mitsubishi have.
But all of that is irrelevant. Meridian and Onkyo weren't afraid to enter the HD DVD market and compete with Toshiba. Unless you have an explaination why they are exceptions to your theory, then they prove your theory wrong. (Your theory being that the lower priced Toshiba's would keep people from making HD DVD players.)No, it proves my theory. Neither of those companies compete with Toshiba on the low-end, where I've said Toshiba's subsidization tactic would deter others from entering the market. If either player is under $700 I'll be happy to acknowledge I was utterly wrong. Otherwise the theory is entirely valid, since no one is claiming Toshiba is subsidizing their higher-end models.

Wow, you must be following a different CES than I am.I'm as much of an HD DVD fan as anyone -- pre-ordered the first model of player, have a ridiculously large stack of titles, waste all day whacking the 'Refresh' button on AVS and a few other forums waiting for more title announcements -- but I can't fathom anyone walking away from this CES coverage thinking that there's even a battle going on. A battle requires two sides to be fighting, and only one seems to be putting forth much of an effort here. It's always been all about the movies for me. Blu-ray is delivering. HD DVD, not so much, especially in terms of anything exclusive. On one hand, I'm glad there was a format war because both sides have been forced to bring their A-game, but it looks like HD DVD's early successes have prompted Blu-ray to really step up, and I'm just not seeing anything to make me feel particularly enthusiastic about HD DVD.

It'll be interesting to see if the Blu-ray dominance at the show up to this point will prompt HD DVD to pull something out of its hat that they'd been keeping under wraps. Since we haven't heard anything from Universal and since there hasn't been a corresponding HD DVD press release for the presumably multi-format titles that Paramount announced, I'm sure there's more to come. I have a hard time imagining a volley of titles to top what the BD camp has announced, though.

By what token do you consider Onkyo and Meridian tier one vendors? They may produce fine equipment, but they have nowhere near the same brand recognition, retail presence, or ability to influence a market that Sony, Panasonic, Sharp, Samsung, Pioneer, Philips, or Mitsubishi have.
No, it proves my theory. Neither of those companies compete with Toshiba on the low-end, where I've said Toshiba's subsidization tactic would deter others from entering the market. If either player is under $700 I'll be happy to acknowledge I was utterly wrong. Otherwise the theory is entirely valid, since no one is claiming Toshiba is subsidizing their higher-end models.

I don't understand this subsidy argument ... how is Toshiba Subsidizing an A1 or A2 any different than what Sony is doing with the PS3? By your own accounts, the PS3 will likely be one of the few BD-Live compatible players on the market, and it's being sold for half of what other BR players (with less features) are being sold for.

I just dont get it ... :confused:

It's over, Johnny

I'm glad to see a Sony representative was nice enough to let us know that the format war has ended. :rolleyes: I suppose the $200 - $300 Chinese HD-DVD players and the bargain priced first gen players won't make any difference since Hollywood now dictates to consumers what they'll be buying?

That's an easy one. It differentiates their offering in the market from all the other Blu-ray players. It provides a great deal of press (free advertising). And, perhaps their real motivation, it provides the perfect player for all the HD DVD owners to buy as they migrate to Blu-ray but still want to play their existing HD DVD library.
That makes a lot of sense. LG May be aiming it at hd-dvd owners who, in their opinion, will need to migrate to BD cos HD may not survive. Thus, a player taht plays the HD movies but without the jazz of iHD. It provides a modicum of backward compatibility for all those who have HD discs while allowing them to buy BD discs from here on in and protect their investment.

With 1.5M Potential BD players out there, BD is here to stay for a bit and a byte.

Does anyone have any details on the movie attach rate for BR Players?

And ... I wonder if they're counting the Tally of 1 Million Talledega Nights BR copies as part of the quantity that surpased HD-DVD sales? :confused:

And ... I wonder if they're counting the Tally of 1 Million Talledega Nights BR copies as part of the quantity that surpased HD-DVD sales? :confused:I believe it was 500,000 copies (currently shipping PS3s don't have it), but no, I don't think they included those. If they had the number of titles sold per week on the graph would have had to be higher.

--Darin

I was looking forward to purchasing a second gen BD player, which would be competitively priced with the offerings from the HDDVD side, with competitive technology/capabilities.

Right now I am looking at waiting until probably the third quarter of this year because that is when the BD side will have its act together with reasonably priced players, working software and ethernet connections?? Am I right about this. The press hype I have seen so far does nothing to make me want to purchase a player now!!!

So far I see that the Samsung will still be the cheapest player at $799. What a bargain for a second rate piece of equipment.

Oh, wait, here are two more examples of misleading marketing from the HD DVD Promotion Group's press release (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070107/nysu054.html?.v=1):
Since when do we use a projected annualized attach rate? With the curtailed release schedule of popular content and a reasonable number of HD DVD owners also buying Blu-ray players, it's highly unlikely a given buyer will maintain the same rate of disc purchases they did shortly after purchasing their player. Why not use the three free discs that came with the player and claim an annualized attach rate of 1095 (365 * 3)?!?
And by what possible stretch of the imagination can yo ucome up with a figure of 2.325 million players to be sold in the next 11.5 months? Why not claim you'll sell 5M and project sales of $1.2B?!?

Clearly desperation is settling in at the HD DVD Promotions Council...

Oh yah, I'm with ya ... I'm glad the BR camp doesn't have anyone inflating numbers ... which reminds me, I need to go wipe down one of those 4 million PS3's Sony got out by 2006 -- someone put a smudge on it. :rolleyes:

At least HD-DVD is making a projection for a year ... if they fall short, they have a year to make excuses. If ... because they haven't yet ...

While, Sony, on the OTOH, at the end of August, was 'still on track' to meet their goals. Then, poof ... :p

You must work for Sony ... :)

I was looking forward to purchasing a second gen BD player, which would be competitively priced with the offerings from the HDDVD side, with competitive technology/capabilities.

Right now I am looking at waiting until probably the third quarter of this year because that is when the BD side will have its act together with reasonably priced players, working software and ethernet connections?? Am I right about this. The press hype I have seen so far does nothing to make me want to purchase a player now!!!

So far I see that the Samsung will still be the cheapest player at $799. What a bargain for a second rate piece of equipment.

Actually, I believe their trick is to get you to buy a player now ... then, buy another one later that actually has features ... so they can add to the 'BR players in the field' number. :p

Oh, wait, here are two more examples of misleading marketing from the HD DVD Promotion Group's press release (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070107/nysu054.html?.v=1):
Since when do we use a projected annualized attach rate? With the curtailed release schedule of popular content and a reasonable number of HD DVD owners also buying Blu-ray players, it's highly unlikely a given buyer will maintain the same rate of disc purchases they did shortly after purchasing their player. Why not use the three free discs that came with the player and claim an annualized attach rate of 1095 (365 * 3)?!?
And by what possible stretch of the imagination can yo ucome up with a figure of 2.325 million players to be sold in the next 11.5 months? Why not claim you'll sell 5M and project sales of $1.2B?!?

Clearly desperation is settling in at the HD DVD Promotions Council...


You know that you come across like supporters of Divx....they had the world by the balls until the hype didn't pan out. I appreciate your insider information, but your tone is derisive. An insider should take the higher road, don't you think.

Clearly desperation is settling in at the HD DVD Promotions Council...
Yep.

I seriously think this CES has been VERY weak for HD DVD. I've had some cold feet on this war, but was able to get a PS3 about a month ago. Based on what I'm hearing about CES, I'm about to jump headlong into BD.

Back to the HD DVD Promotions group and HD DVD in general, is it me or are they now trying to mimic BD?

1.)the HD-A20 with 1080P output. Hmmm, sounds like they are a little worried about BD's claiming 1080P outputs. All this does really is render the HD-A2 moot?!?!?!

2.)The legendary triple layer HD51 disc. For months we've heard 30G is enough, and VC-1 will get the bitrates down. Now all of the sudden, they go and do this. Talk about being a day late and a dollar short. "Maybe by 4Q this year?" What a joke. Are current HD DVD people going to be worry if they're out of luck if this even makes it into the spec? Will they stop buying as a result?

3.)Oh, and did you see the pics of the "secret" xbox360 w/ HMDI? Is this the "oneup" of the PS3? Funny, I thought Sony and the BDA had a flawed strategy with the PS3 BD strategy.

You know what they say, "Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery."

Meanwhile, the BD studios are hitting their stride with some great releases. Whereas 80+%of the 300 HD DVDs will also be available on BD. This is just amazing to me.

I only have two complaints right now with CES from a BD standpoint. One, SONY PICTURES. What is wrong with them? I understand needing to hold back a bit, but I thought for sure they'd at least announce DaVinci Code and the Spiderman series for 2Q. Sony Pictures should be leading, not following. Maybe they still got some tricks up their sleeves, but their behavior is a bit baffling to me. I am pleased with the specs of their 1Q releases. I think great things are ahead for them, but at some point they need to put up or shut up. Two, Paramount. They flat out are the most risk averse studio of them all. Don't get me wrong, I like their product, but they are just not bullish at all. If this is how they are going to approach HD optical, then they shouldn't waste their time even showing up to CES IMHO. Get on the bus Paramount!!!

Anyway, congratulations to everyone here. We're going to get a lot of HD and some players.

Actually, I believe their trick is to get you to buy a player now ... then, buy another one later that actually has features ... so they can add to the 'BR players in the field' number. :p

That was a Toshiba trick. Get you to buy the 1G machine and then have to buy a 2G player to actually get one that works right.. ;)

They sold 175,000 players to 105,000 customers..

b2b

You know that you come across like supporters of Divx....they had the world by the balls until the hype didn't pan out. I appreciate your insider information, but your tone is derisive. An insider should take the higher road, don't you think.

Actually, I've been waiting for him to post something to the effect of, "HD-DVD was p0wn3d and BR is the R0x0rs."

(I confirmed with my nephew that this is the correct usage for both p0wn3d and r0x0rs) ... :p

I don't understand this subsidy argument ... how is Toshiba Subsidizing an A1 or A2 any different than what Sony is doing with the PS3?Because Blu-ray already has multiple competitors, so the PS3 clearly hasn't prevented consumers from seeing broad industry support for the format. Toshiba is stuck with the appearance of HD DVD being a one-company format since they don't see any meaningful presence beyond that which Toshiba can muster. Also, since HD DVD has attempted to differentiate itself largely on the basis of being cheaper than Blu-ray, anyone trying to produce an upmarket player is working against the prevailing demographics of the market.

In addition, Sony can afford to continue subsidizing the PS3, since the revenue generated by games historically is a goldmine (~$8/title). Toshiba can't hope for anywhere near that kind of return.

I wonder if they're counting the Tally of 1 Million Talledega Nights BR copies as part of the quantity that surpased HD-DVD sales? No way. If they were the 500K copies they sold in a few weeks would have resulted in Blu-ray outselling HD DVD titles by far more than 20%, since HD DVD has sold only 1.5M titles over the last eight months.

No way. If they were the 500K copies they sold in a few weeks would have resulted in Blu-ray outselling HD DVD titles by far more than 20%, since HD DVD has sold only 1.5M titles over the last eight months.

Where did you get the 1.5M figure from ? (no this is not a rhetorical question).

Since when do we use a projected annualized attach rate?When your actual sales are lower than the other guy's. :D

Because Blu-ray already has multiple competitors, so the PS3 clearly hasn't prevented consumers from seeing broad industry support for the format. Toshiba is stuck with the appearance of HD DVD being a one-company format since they don't see any meaningful presence beyond that which Toshiba can muster. Also, since HD DVD has attempted to differentiate itself largely on the basis of being cheaper than Blu-ray, anyone trying to produce an upmarket player is working against the prevailing demographics of the market.

In addition, Sony can afford to continue subsidizing the PS3, since the revenue generated by games historically is a goldmine (~$8/title). Toshiba can't hope for anywhere near that kind of return.

I don't believe PS3 has any competitors in the < $600 range. Plus, as you yourself mentioned, 95% of Blu-Ray players are PS3's ... so ... that other miniscule 5% (that isn't BD-Live compatible) is now considered competition? When, for the purposes of discussing BD-Live compatibility, they were considered irrelevent?

Sony's Gaming Division accounts for 60% of their revenue and 10% of their profits. Their subsidy of the PS3 @ $280 is $200 more than what MS had subsidized the Xbox by at Launch. Also, Sony's attach rate for the PS3 is less than 2, compared to 5.3 for the Xbox 360. At $8 a game, they need an attach rate more along the lines of 35 ... as in ... thirty-five.

Clearly, the PS3 was a 'last ditch Hail Mary Pass' as without Blu-Ray royalties, they stand to completely get turned upside down financially.

Also, I believe the studio's were promised 6 Million Players ... let's see how close Sony gets to that and how long they can keep shoveling excuses before people start to switch sides. IMO, Industry Support had a lot to do with these 'promises'.

I appreciate your insider information, but your tone is derisive. An insider should take the higher road, don't you think.I usually try to (unless I'm dealing with rdjam or a FUDding Amir), but I'm on such an adrenaline high from being here in the midst of CES. (I'm typing this from the food court at the Canal Shoppes in the Venetian if anyone wants to definitively ID my real identity!) The clear acceleration of momentum for Blu-ray, (great announcements of upcoming titles, sales statistics and surveys bearing out the PS3 effect, widespread BD50 and BD-J support, incredible demos in the Blu-ray booth on a 103" Panasonic plasma) coupled with the disappointing HD DVD presence (no new studios, uninspired news in terms of new players other than the LG universal player which is more of a slap in the face for HD DVD, bleak HD DVD booth in the corner of the exhibition hall) has me positively giddy!

Now, I have to dash before someone ID's me! Off to the Wynn!

scaesare, you are complaining to the wrong person and if I knew of such public info I would be happy to provide a link to it.

While, I asked for that specific info, and you chose to provide an answer which completely ignores what I asked for, so if you want to intepret that as complaining, go ahead... I call that simply wanting to stay on a specific topic.


I certainly wouldn't mind there being more public info on the Blu-ray player profiles, but I dislike the fact that your posts always seem to be attacks against Blu-ray.


Then you are ignoring some of my posts.

Wow, you must be following a different CES than I am.
Except that by leaving out support for HDi it's a huge negative for the HD DVD camp. It gives studios another reason to prefer Blu-ray over HD-DVD, and it calls into question whether HD DVD has any teeth in enforcing minimum capabilities.
Nice vague number. How many of these are exclusive? How many are from major studios? I don't think the impact of a Turkish version of "Deuce Bigalow" really compares with "Pirates of the Caribbean". The fact that only four of 2006's 20 highest grossing DVD's are even conceivably going to be available on HD DVD while 18 of them come from Blu-ray-supportive studios ought to be of much greater concern to you.
Huh? It looks pretty clear to me.
What do you think would have to happen now for a new major studio to announce HD DVD support? CES is clearly the best opportunity, and that's gone (barring a massive surprise in the next two days). Blu-ray momentum is clearly strong, while the 175K players HD DVD admits to isn't particularly impressive. With the holidays over there isn't much of a market driver to propel HD DVD player sales. And when we see the inevitable price slash by Toshiba in a few months you should recognize it for what it is - a desparate last gasp Hail Mary pass, which will miss its mark by a mile.

It's over, Johnny.
While it may indeed be over, I would suggest not proclaiming it yet. Life is unpredictable and all that.

No way. If they were the 500K copies they sold in a few weeks would have resulted in Blu-ray outselling HD DVD titles by far more than 20%, since HD DVD has sold only 1.5M titles over the last eight months.

Wow ... if that's the case ... you're saying that BR sold 1.8M titles. So ... let's see ...

1M BR Players in the Market = 1.8 Attach Rate
.175M HD-DVD Players in the Market = 8.6 Attach Rate

So ... to basically Break Even ... Blu-Ray Players have to outpace HD-DVD Players by more than a 4:1 Margin ... and that's just to Break Even.

No wonder all you did was bash HD-DVD's attach rate projections instead of posting what BR's attach rate was. :p

Where did you get the 1.5M figure from ? (no this is not a rhetorical question).Official Toshiba press release (linked here (http://digital50.com/news/items/BW/2001/07/14/20070104006155/toshiba-unveils-worlds-first-desktop-hd-dvd-writer.html) , among many other places).

I usually try to (unless I'm dealing with rdjam or a FUDding Amir), but I'm on such an adrenaline high from being here in the midst of CES (I'm typing this from the food court at the Canal Shoppes in the Venetian if anyone wants to definitively ID my real identity!). The clear acceleration of momentum for Blu-ray, (reat announcements of upcoming titles, sales statistics and surveys bearing out the PS3 effect, widespread BD50 and BD-J support, incredible demos in the Blu-ray booth on a 103" Panasonic plasma) coupled with the disappointing HD DVD presence (no new studios, uninspired news in terms of new players other than the LG universal player which is more of a slap in the face for HD DVD, bleak HD DVD booth in the corner of the exhibition hall) has me positively giddy!

Now, I have to dash before someone ID's me! Off to the Wynn!

Didn't someone post that only 8 titles in the next 6 months would be BD50? That's "widespread" ?

Wow ... if that's the case ... you're saying that BR sold 1.8M titles.Huh? I said starting the week of Dec 21 Blu-ray is outselling HD DVD on a weekly basis. I never claimed they've sold more cumulative discs.
No wonder all you did was bash HD-DVD's attach rate projections instead of posting what BR's attach rate was. :pThere's no question HD DVD's attach rate is far higher than Blu-ray's - the vast majority of Blu-ray players were sold in the last month. My point was people complain about BDA "questionable" marketing, while the HD DVD Promotions Council is doing the same thing.

Didn't someone post that only 8 titles in the next 6 months would be BD50? That's "widespread" ?No, someone posted that Fox's press release specifically calls out 8 BD50 titles by April. Lionsgate, Sony, Disney, and Fox all said they will be shipping high numbers of BD50.

Official Toshiba press release (linked here (http://digital50.com/news/items/BW/2001/07/14/20070104006155/toshiba-unveils-worlds-first-desktop-hd-dvd-writer.html) , among many other places).

Thanks. As you can see in the following link, somthing doesn't compute ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9398513&&#post9398513

Huh? I said starting the week of Dec 21 Blu-ray is outselling HD DVD on a weekly basis. I never claimed they've sold more cumulative discs.


Wow ... then the attach rate is even less than 1.8? Wow ...


There's no question HD DVD's attach rate is far higher than Blu-ray's - the vast majority of Blu-ray players were sold in the last month. My point was people complain about BDA "questionable" marketing, while the HD DVD Promotions Council is doing the same thing.

Well, to be fair ... Sony/BDA marketing has overpromised and underdelivered many times since this whole mess started, no?

And, as many have said, Toshiba had underpromised and overdelivered ... soo ... why is it such a stretch that they won't be able to meet their numbers? Why is that questionable marketing? They have a year to do it, and believe they can.

Sony, OTOH, probably had a good idea that they weren't going to get 4 Million units out by EOY when they made that annoucement a little over 90 days from end of said year. I'm sure having quarterly estimates off by 70+% gives investors a nice warm fuzzy feeling. ;)

Sorry, Nataraj, you can belittle the facts all you want, but the fact Blu-ray discs are now outselling HD-DVD discs (from a source significantly more credible than thedvdwars) is a significant inflection point in HD-DVD's inevitable format demise. In case you missed it, take a look at the chart (http://mms.businesswire.com/bwapps/mediaserver/ViewMedia?mgid=84851&vid=5).
Fox a credible source for HD DVD numbers? Oh please.
That's like saying Microsoft is a credible source for PS3 shipping numbers, simply because we're in the video game business.

Now if Warner and Paramount were to say that their BD discs were outselling their equivalent HD DVD discs (which from the last report, they weren't) I'd consider them more credible, since at least they have the numbers.

In addition, Sony can afford to continue subsidizing the PS3, since the revenue generated by games historically is a goldmine (~$8/title). Toshiba can't hope for anywhere near that kind of return.

The estimates I have seen say that the PS3 is losing $2-300 per sale. I would hope that they are making more than $8 per title. At only a $200 loss per machine, each PS3 owner would have to buy 25 games for Sony to break even, without starting to recoup R&D and make a profit. At $300, it's 37 games.

You are correct that Toshiba isn't hoping to make that kind of return. :p

Fox a credible source for HD DVD numbers? Oh please.
That's like saying Microsoft is a credible source for PS3 shipping numbers, simply because we're in the video game business.

Now if Warner and Paramount were to say that their BD discs were outselling their equivalent HD DVD discs (which from the last report, they weren't) I'd consider them more credible, since at least they have the numbers.

Aww ... maybe Fox is using a "projected annualized rate" ... :p

As an HD DVD supporter I am dissapointed and have to concede hat the HD DVD press at CES was weak. I think HD DVD did alot right.....1) Great Picture 2) First to Market......But I also feel like they dropped the ball in certain areas..1) Missed a good opportunity to move players when PS3 was in Short Supply....2) Failed to get STUDIO SUPPORT......And that at the end of the day is going to cause BD to succeed and HD DVD to eventually fail. I have the Add On for the 360 and have been renting HD DVD's mostly as I was waiting for CES to see what would happen...........Now I see that I will keep the 360 for the gaming( I still think the 360 will be the top gaming platform this go around) and will get a BD player for Optical disks. I mean without additional Studio Support BD will start to really outpace HD DVD with movies available and that will start to become more and more obvious. I have to admit in the nd now it appears that the PS3 early on will provide enough boost to BD to keep there edge. It's a shame I wish HD DVD could have had more Studio Support to give the consumers more choice!

Butler5,

I truly feel a bit bad for you. But know this. Microsoft is putting huge effort into HD DVD and I think it will be around for a while. Regardless of how strong the BDA has shown at CES, it doesn't change the fact that what you have on HD DVD via the 360 addon is still pleasing to you, and provides you with entertainment value. It's kind of like the old argument you see in the speaker forums. Just because something maybe a bit better comes out or is released, it doesn't diminish the performance of what you currently have.

All of this being said, jump into BD as well. I can personally attest that you will be happy when you do.

I don't know your personal history of how you got into HD DVD, but I really hope it wasn't because of a lot of the propoganda and spin you read on this forum. The BDA is huge, and is basically "everyone" except a few companies who didn't want to lose the "glory days of their DVD success". BD will be the defacto HD optical disc delivery methodology, we've only just seen the beginning of it.

All the best.

I think the biggest mistake MS made was not selling a HDMI 360 with hd drive built in.

Either it was sloppy strategy (assuming they wanted HD to survive and not just delay high def disc adoption) OR they knew all along (without full consensus) that BD would win and just wanted to drag out the war long enough for high def movie downloads to overtake movie discs.

Thus no point in "charging 200 bucks for something that might be the next betamax".

HD may survive anyways but it would have flourished a whole lot more if the 10M (or even 5M) 360s sold had had HD-DVD drives in them.

Wow, you must be following a different CES than I am.
Except that by leaving out support for HDi it's a huge negative for the HD DVD camp. It gives studios another reason to prefer Blu-ray over HD-DVD, and it calls into question whether HD DVD has any teeth in enforcing minimum capabilities.Ooh ooh, you mean like the Sony and Pioneer and their emperor's new BD-J? Mandatory BD-J, I was led to believe by you. Do they have some leeway before they're allowed to get a logo, or is someone going to go around to all the registered owners and either update their player or scrape off the little BD logo on the side?
At least the LG player still plays the title, even though it might not support all the features. I may not agree with their decision, but they have to take it up with the DVD Forum when they try logo their player. We're talking a player that hasn't even shipped yet (where anything could change) compared to two shipped players that are obviously non-compliant. Glass houses and all that.